Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/IncidentArchive951

User:Carliertwo and Siouxsie and the Banshees (again)

In January I opened an ANI thread (archived here), concerning Carliertwo and their editing of articles related to the music group Siouxsie and the Banshees. My intention had been for the community to examine the whole approach of this user, but unfortunately the thread was closed after focusing on one specific incident (Carliertwo not respecting the result of an RfC). My concern is that this user is not interested in Wikipedia being a neutral and balanced source of information, rather they are using Wikipedia as a platform for echoing their own views as a Siouxsie Sioux fan. I write this as someone who owns several records by the group, so I am not a hater of the band seeking to attack them (quite the contrary); I am simply attempting to ensure Wikipedia's coverage of them is neutral. Currently this is not possible, because Carliertwo has a stranglehold over all articles connected with Siouxsie Sioux, and removes all content that does not chime with their own enthusiasm for the band. Comments made about this user at that first thread include the following: "it looks to me like ownership doesn't even begin to describe the contribution count: it is literally all for the band, like some sort of dedicate social media account to ensure that this group is always portrayed in a positive light" (TomStar81), "Carliertwo is not respecting the consensus outcome of the RfC and they are edit warring. The comment on your talk page does have the tone of ownership" (MrX), and "It is pretty damning evidence of being a SPA when all you do is edit on a specific band to achieve your specific POV" (TheGracefulSlick).

Incidents that have made me open this issue again are the following (the third example is the most revealing):

• 1) Although there had just been an RfC (that I opened) that concluded that the phrase "Tinderbox would be later hailed by the lead singer of Suede, Brett Anderson on his website" should not be included in the Tinderbox article, Carliertwo immediately opens another RfC, this time asking whether the phrase "In 2011, Brett Anderson, the lead singer of Suede, included Tinderbox on a list of albums that he called "current fascinations" should be included in the article.[1]
• 2) In the article about the album Kaleidoscope, I adjusted a review quote so that it reflected the overall tone of the review (i.e. qualified praise) [2]. Carliertwo has reverted this three times ([3] [4] [5]), each time replacing the overall summary with cherry-picked praise of 2 particular tracks.
• 3) I found a very critical review, written by Julie Burchill in the NME, of the album The Scream. I found it remarkable that our article didn't have this review in the 'Critical reception' section, though it did contain long positive comments about the album made by other NME journalists, just not the actual official NME review. So I added a quote from the review [6]. Carliertwo reverted this, stating that I must have found the review on a fansite, and hence I couldn't "advance the veracity" of Burchill's article [7]. So, I added a link to a scan of the review in a copy of NME Originals [8]. Carliertwo reverted this and replaced it with an attack on Burchill's review that is almost hysterical in tone [9], at the same time denying readers the possibility of even reading a quote from Burchill's review.

I am very concerned about the actions of this editor and think that, while they continue to treat Wikipedia as a mouthpiece for reflecting their own views, it will be impossible for any Wikipedia article about Siouxsie Sioux (and related subjects) to achieve any kind of neutrality. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 21:48, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Defense: reply of Carliertwo: Introduction

• Definition and difference between a SPA and a Stewardship. A "wp:Stewardship of an article (or group of related articles) may be the result of a sincere personal interest in the subject matter or an interest in a cause or organization related to the article's subject matter. The editor might also be an expert on the subject matter, or otherwise very knowledgeable of the topic, and able to provide credible insights for locating reliable sources. "
• 1) For your information, I almost entirely wrote a wp:GA for Join Hands. I have made a huge research to create section about legacy, finding the right quotes. All the legacy sections on these SATB related articles have been written by me, I let you measure the good work at Siouxsie Sioux article. [10]]. If you want to get rid of a good contributor who has historical content, you have to have this in mind.
• 2) A 2nd RFC on Tinderbox (Siouxsie and the Banshees album) for including a different sentence while using the same source was discussed a few months ago: my version was accepted with a wp:consensus [[11]]. Palecloudedwhite didn't mention I have a consensus, he wants a revenge apparently.
• 3) For The Scream (album) article, I have added secondary sources as Julie Burchill's review was seen as controversial by many critics. These secondary sources are by legendary John Peel DJ, biographer Brian Jones and I can add another one from Paul Morley who also highly criticized Burchill's review two months later in the NME. Julie Burchill is a journalist known for writing with venom about all the punk and post-punk bands, secondary sources are perfectly valid in this case. So, where is the wp:OR  ? Comment about Pale, Pale had initially used a reference from a fansite where he took the title of the review "Well, what would Edvard Munch have said.", which meant he hadn't checked back then the veracity of the review and didn't own the original (mistakes of sources are common on fansite). Yesterday, he found a reproduction of the article on a NME reissue which doesn't mention the title of the review anymore "well, what would Edvard Munch have said. So that's why he withdrew the title "Well, what would Edvard Munch have said" ffrom the source. I was right but Pale forgot to present you this important fact. Now, it is still said in the article, that in the same paper, Julie Burchill published a scathing review, later judged as this by her peers as I have explained it with sources in the article.
• 4) For Kaleidoscope (Siouxsie and the Banshees album), I included a source with quote from the Melody Maker, Pale wanted to change it, I don't consider this idea better. Regarding The Scream (album) and Kaleidoscope (Siouxsie and the Banshees album)', there are talks to discuss.
• 5) PaleCloudedWhite is not far to be a group hater, I invite you to read the hysterical tone he used here [12] : on 1 February 2017 he wrote: "Boy George writes in his autobiography about meeting Siouxsie Sioux when he was youn of me and the bandger, and says, {{She was haughty, irritated by those attempting to brush with greatness. The new punk stars were every bit as puffed up as the seventies rock dinosaurs they despised", then presumably it's absolutely OK to add this, plus any other quotes I find in primary sources, to the Siouxsie Sioux article}}? ". It is his frame of mind.
• 6) Concerning the review, Pale also wanted to include this pure bashing "the sound of suet pudding" out of the blue which shows Pale's agenda. We never included pure hatred from critics inside quotes for wp:neutrality. Carliertwo (talk) 22:58, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• Well I'm thrilled to see nothing has changed. I'm thinking editing restrictions (like topic banned, broadly construed, from anything remotely related to the band). Who be with me? TomStar81 (Talk) 21:59, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Why ? Pale forgot to tell you he lost the 2nd rfc which ended with a consensus saying the source is valuable. Now, Is there a consensus at the talk of the Scream? The review is still mentioned and there are secondary sources from very famous people who criticized Burchill's work. see below . for TomStar81 You entirely have to read the defense before banning and I hadn't written it yet Carliertwo (talk) 23:14, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• Support TomStar81's proposal - I faintly remember this discussion in January and share Star's "thrill" that nothing has changed. Readers deserve the full story about the band (and their albums/singles) so it is terribly unfair to censor reviews just because they are contrary to one editor's personal preferences.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 22:18, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Why ? Pale forgot to tell you he lost the 2nd rfc which ended with a consensus saying the source is valuable. Now, Is there a consensus at the talk of the Scream? The review is still mentioned and there are secondary sources from very famous people who criticized Burchill's work. see below . for TheGracefulSlick You entirely have to read the defense before banning and I hadn't written it yet Carliertwo (talk) 23:14, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• Support topic ban. The NME thing is blatant evidence they are incapable of editing neutrally in this area. Only in death does duty end (talk) 22:45, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

See below. the review is still mentioned. for Only in death. You entirely have to read the defense before banning and I hadn't written it yet before your ban. Carliertwo (talk) 23:14, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

I didnt vote support because the review is/is not in the article, I voted support because you thought this edit was an appropriate response to someone criticising your pet band. Only in death does duty end (talk) 09:18, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

• Comment I've just had to revert (most of) this editor's large changes to Mogwai, as well. Nothing ridiculous, but they'd merged sections in the article into one without any reason whatsoever. Black Kite (talk) 22:49, 27 March 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - As someone who also listens to this group, I can say without a doubt that all articles should be written from a neutral point of view, and most (if not all) claims should be backed with reliable sources. The same goes for all articles. However, what I can also say is that editing a specific set of articles does not automatically make the user an SPA. Most editors stick to articles about their interests to begin with. DarkKnight2149 23:53, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

So by not replying by an oppose, you let them ban me, and let these peoplewho are not aware of the agenda of this group hater, and don't care at all of all the massive work with sources that I have made on wikipedia, win de facto. Darkknight2149 Carliertwo (talk) 00:12, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Let me put it this way - If they're goal is to make the group look bad, they should not be editing Siouxsie articles. At the same time, if your goal is promote them, neither should you.

Also, sources are absolutely necessary, but it is possible to use them and not be neutral. I'm not going to "pick a side" (for lack of a better term) here since I don't have a history with anyone involved and don't know what is characteristic of their or your behaviour. DarkKnight2149 00:42, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Fine, I have added secondary sources from John Peel and a biographer but apparently you haven't seen them at The Scream (album). Do you mind clicking on this link or is it too much to ask [13] ? He doesn't have anything to prove that I am not neutral whereas I have one against him as he included the non neutrality quote "The sound of a suet pudding". Darkknight2149 Carliertwo (talk) 01:05, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

• Support Editor is wasting all of our time here with this nonsense. --Tarage (talk) 00:45, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

As Tarage has never contributed to any historical content on wikipedia apart discussing banning on Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents and writing on talks, their voice is more than measured. Carliertwo (talk) 00:58, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Adorable. I'll look forward to seeing your block log then. --Tarage (talk) 05:12, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

This is rich, you wrote that my contributions are nonsense whereas I wrote a GA and the valuable content/good sources of these articles were written by me. Judging people without knowing their work is a speciality from you. Thanks for confirming that your pleasure is seeing good contributors being banned. Carliertwo (talk) 05:36, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

You can stop the personal attacks and digging your hole any time now buddy. --Tarage (talk) 18:01, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

• Important CommentSurprisingly, three users had already given a ban without even reading the defense, without even seeing I have added secondary sources and the Julie Burchill's NME review is still mentioned in article. Carliertwo (talk) 23:00, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

• as this ANI is canvassed, could well known users of the SATB articles write their point of view about my work and the umerous volume I have added on wikipedia ? Gentlecollapse6, Greg Fasolino, Woovee, J Milburn, LessHeard vanU, SilkTork, If you want to get rid of a good contributor because of a witch hunt begun by a group hater who is against my person and refuses to swallow that he lost a 2nd rfc against me by a consensus, it is your choice. Carliertwo (talk) 23:26, 27 March 2017 (UTC)

Carliertwo this ANI was not canvassed. He was quoting us so it is appropriate to ping us when our edits are mentioned. You, on the other hand, did just canvass a group of editors. You also keep called PaleWhite a "group hater" just because he added a review from a somewhat controversial, but notable, critic.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 00:37, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Would you explain us why people who know all my good work, could not write here whereas Pale's first RFC was cancelled by a 2nd rfc with a consensus for my version which means that his first ANI was retrospectively abusive and was just a witch hunt. He thought to include bashing from Boy George about this group (see the quote in green above) and now in the article about The Scream, he wants to include bashing such as "the sound of a suet pudding" where is the neutrality? Have you read my secondary sources from legendary John Peel and biographer of the group? No you didn't obviously. All the Burchill's quote he added was a manoeuvre to include this derogatory term about the album "the sound of a suet pudding", no neutrality. TheGracefulSlick --- Carliertwo (talk) 00:43, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

TheGracefulSlick failed to address anything about the following points: the fact that there are secondary sources for Burchill's review and the fact that Burchill's review is still mentioned in the article. Carliertwo (talk) 00:54, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Carlietwo I'd be happy to as soon as you address the multiple non-neutral ANI notices you sent to friendly users calling PaleWhite a "hater". Thanks.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 01:29, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

TheGraceFulSlick doesn't even know what a wp:stewardship means. I note the refusal to discuss'and reply about why the reason of banning is justified whereas Burchill's review is still included in the article and widely commented by secondary sources with experts such as John Peel. TheGraceFulSlick also supports the idea of including a bashing of Boy George towards this group by Pale, which is trivial content and she also supports the inclusion of a non neutral quote by Burchill such as "the sound of suet pudding". Carliertwo (talk) 02:18, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Carliertwo please do not put words in my mouth or question my competence. I have edited much more music articles than I can count so I think I know a thing or two. I said I'd be happy to discuss when you address why you think it is okay to canvass editors.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:24, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

You accused me to be a SPA and you don't even know that the rfc for which the previous ANI was created against me, was later cancelled by a new consensus. Are you sure you are of good faith ? without mentioning that you hadn't even waited to get my defense before voting for a ban. Read my wp:GA about Join Hands, and read the first comment of Darkknight2149 above and ponder. Then when you'll have thought about this, I will be happy to discuss. TheGracefulSlick. don't worry people have a brain and the users that post on SATB related articles will not take for granted my subjective comment. They will judge facts and the content of articlesCarliertwo (talk) 02:35, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

I have got a lot of difficulties to believe that contacting you, an user who accused me of being a SPA in an ANI opened for a RFC which has been cancelled, is not canvassing. Knowing that you don't know anything of my edits of the SATB related articles. But you said, that contacting people who do contribute on articles about music and who didn't take part to the previous ANI concerning me, is canvassing. This is rich. TheGracefullSlick. Carliertwo (talk) 02:42, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

I really enjoy when an editor accuses me of competency issues, lack of good faith, and insinuates I do not have a brain: all without a single diff! I'm just going to wait for other editors to jump in (hopefully some you didn't canvas) because this is no longer very productive.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 02:50, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

No I said that the people I contacted on their page won't take for granted that I consider Pale close to be a band hater and wanting to take a revenge for losing a 2nd rfc against me. People will take a look at the edits, they are users of music related articles. However you can't denied accusing me being a SPA, the quote is above, and you can't denied voting for my ban far before I posted someting here today. Whatever I post, you don't mind. All the things I have said are wrong according to you apparently. I was just asking which point of my defense reply you agree with and which one you disagree.Carliertwo (talk) 04:14, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

TheGracefulSlick I have just read what canvassing was really about, and withdrew all my edits at the talks of people who edit at music related articles and replaced the message by another short neutral notice. I'm new at ANI. Anyway, you're gonna win and could feast your victory with a cup of champagne in a few days. Congratulations. Thanks for your kind messages and at least admitting well accepting to admit a bit that Burchill's review was "controversial". I guess it is a satisfaction for me. I presume you're gonna let Pale erase all this part and let him doing what did he say earlier "denying readers the possibility of even reading a quote from Burchill's review", well in this case "denying readers the possibility of even reading from Burchill's" peers who were skeptical of her work. Carliertwo (talk) 05:51, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Please stop pinging me. You are mistaken, I'm not here to "win" anything. You're continued attitude at article talk pages [14] and your sarcasm with me suggests why you need a topic ban. By the way, your comment in the diff I provided mischaracterized PaleWhite for no reason whatsoever.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 06:10, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

"Which diff you provided" are you talking about ? I disagree with your attitude. If banning a good contributor without any warning is normal, I don't think this is measured. Carliertwo (talk) 06:16, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Ugh...the diff in my last comment. And here is what I was pointing to specifically: "Pale's will to include a derogatory term such as 'The Sound of suet pudding' shows how his frame of mind. Be ready to see him post plenty of negative, things on SATB articles shortly and in the forthcoming years". I guess I also need to ask you to stop "thanking" me for my edits which you know pings me like an actual ping.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 06:32, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

• Ban+block NPOV, edit warring, bludgeon, and attacking other editors for their lack of brainpower. This editor clearly has a boen to pick with others over anything. That attack on Tarage was pretty poor. A few weeks perhaps? L3X1 (distant write) 03:14, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Ban from what, do you want me to never edit again on SATB related articles knowing that I have been adding all the good quotes, content and sources from 10 years, and seeing that I entirely wrote a GA ? In a limited time or endlessly and is being a stewardship allowed ? When there is war editing on an article The steps are usually, request demand for a third opinion, discussion, rfc and then if a rfc is not respected an ANI. Canvassing is when you contact people to get support. Pale contacted people from the previous ANI to support him, so I asked neutral people to write their point of view. Another question, will the secondary sources be erased whereas they are comments from John Peel who is the number specialist of music in England ? for L3X1. And have you read all my defense reply above the comments Carliertwo (talk) 04:00, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

• Note The canvassing continues. Blackmane (talk) 05:04, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
• note I just read what is canvassing, I thought it was contacting people. I am a newbie at ANI, never been interested by banning attack judging, people. So I'm gonna erase the messages at pages of people I contact to only post a neutral note. Carliertwo (talk) 05:38, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

• After reading through the examples given, and Carliertwo's general editing, I can see the reason for concern. Sadly, Carliertwo's story is fairly common - we are urged to look out for paid editing, but I find our main weakness is unpaid editing by subject enthusiasts who seek to praise their subject a little too much. Yet the bulk of Wikipedia is built by such enthusiasts. The majority of articles on certain popular subjects, be it video games or pop music, have a positive bias. Putting in the neutral balance is the job of neutral editors who come along after the fans have created the article and provided the bulk of the material. And it is the responsibility of all experienced editors to explain to the fans what is happening and why we need to do this. Mostly this is accepted. In Carliertwo's case it seems it is not. Fighting to put back in a trivial, non-encyclopaedic and undue sentence that Brett Anderson liked Tinderbox is not the sort of behaviour we wish to see. On the other hand, the edit warring in Kaleidoscope is two sided. Carliertwo did not completely revert the adjust - the phrasing "Paulo Hewitt gave the album qualified praise" was left intact. During the edit conflict PaleCloudedWhite did not attempt to discuss the matter on the article talkpage or Carliertwo's talkpage, but continued to edit war. I don't think topic banning Carliertwo is an appropriate solution, because I'm not seeing sufficient reason for that. I do think though that it needs to be stressed to Carliertwo that we are not a fan website, and that what we are trying to do is write neutral, balanced and informative articles on Siouxsie and the Banshees for all readers, which means including the negative and the positive in appropriate amounts; which means that we don't cherry pick reviews for the bits we like best, but we aim to give an accurate summary of what was written' which means that if another editor adds material or questions what you are doing, you engage in a discussion as to the best way forward. But this also applies to other editors as well. As experienced editors it is our role to reach out to and explain things to newer or less experienced or knowledgeable editors. We don't shout at them, ban them, or block them, we assist them to understand the Wikipedia way. That way everyone wins. If any editor continues to misbehave after advice has been given, that's when we come in with the heavy stuff. Looking at Carliertwo's history, he has made mistakes, and been given advice. That happens to all of us. There has been a few comments regarding ownership of Siouxsie and the Banshees articles, but not to the level of a ban or a block. I think what is needed here is to let Carliertwo be aware that the community wants cooperation from all editors, and that articles must be neutral in tone. Any concerns are to be discussed rather than fought over. If Carliertwo can acknowledge that he now understands what the issue is, and promises to be more collegiate going forward, I think this matter can be closed. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 09:49, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

• I concur generally with what SilkTork' said and their recommendation. As an additional note, as someone who was worked on the Scream article in question, I would say that simply quoting a sourced review is sufficient. We do not need, and should not, add in an entire additional set of sources commenting on how a particular sourced review is invalid. It's irrelevant, for example, whether John Peel thinks Burchill's review was bad. That does come across like a "defense" of the band/record. If it hasn't already been edited down, it should be.Greg Fasolino (talk) 18:12, 28 March 2017 (UTC)
• Carliertwo's bias continues to show on his talk page. He also, again, accuses PaleWhite of bad faith without any proof whatsoever in the same edit.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:27, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

Yeah I too am getting sick of this. If the user is only going to use their talk page as a means to attack other editors, I request that it be revoked for the duration of the block. They have provided nothing of substance to the argument since getting blocked. --Tarage (talk) 20:30, 28 March 2017 (UTC)

The crucial sentence in SilkTork's comment above is "If Carliertwo can acknowledge that he now understands what the issue is", because at the moment I see no evidence of this. In their most recent post on their talkpage they state that they do not wish for a certain part of the above-mentioned NME review to be used because it "looks like an useless cherry on the cake used as a weapon by PaleCloudedwhite". A weapon? How is it possible to discuss additions to articles if these additions are regarded by this user as weapons? In the same post this user also advises another to "beware of Paleclouded's attitude and check his edits. I think that he has got tons of edits ready and once I'll be gone, he's going to present a pile of edits in the same vein." Oh, thanks for filling in my Wikipedia diary for me - I had been wondering what my future involved, and now I know. It seems to me that this editor regards editors who challenge them over SATB articles as enemies, and all sorts of nonsense ensues because of this. Just look at how my comment about Boy George became mangled; in the second Tinderbox RfC, I tried to illustrate the undesirable logical consequences of Carliertwo's argument by using a quote Boy George had made about Siouxsie Sioux, [15], but at the top of this thread Carliertwo throws this quote back as an example of my "frame of mind"? What? At the start of this thread I state clearly that I have records by the band and am not a hater of the band. Carliertwo's response? To canvass several editors, informing them I am a "group hater" and that "he wants to let us believe he is not a SATB hater and and doesn't have an agenda on wikipedia, waiting me to be banned and then adding negative critics and erasing good reviews". How is it possible to discuss articles - as SilkTork advises - with an editor who has such a bad-faith attitude? It would be great if blocks and bans can be avoided, but what is the alternative? Unproductive contorted stalemate situations with a user who from the outset regards people such as myself as enemies using 'weapons'? PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 08:15, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

In an ideal world we would all get on with each other, agree all the time, and meet up for cherry pie and coffee, but sometimes there are awkward incidents, awkward individuals, and disagreements - that is the nature of Wikipedia editing. I understand your frustration, though there isn't a huge history of problems with this user. There have been minor mistakes made, and advice given. Most users have made mistakes. There has been some edit warring, but generally it takes at least two users to make an edit war. I'm not seeing that we have given this user sufficient guidance regarding the concerns with their editing and behaviour, nor am I seeing that their behaviour is sufficiently damaging to warrant a ban. While I agree with you that it was inappropriate to call a second RFC so close after the first one, and while I disagree with the outcome of that RFC, this is not a banning incident as this sort of thing happens all the time. Calling the RFC was not evil, and there were enough who supported not only the premise of the RFC, but also that it was called. Having an editorial disagreement is not evil. This happens all the time. We work through it. Sometimes this is tiresome, sometimes we learn that we were wrong, and most of the time the article is strengthened. I note that through all these problems that Carliertwo has worked toward a compromise. I find that encouraging rather than cause for a ban. We tend to only ban those who consistently refuse to listen to reason, and who make little or no attempt at compromise. Carliertwo is not perfect, but none of us are, and he is working in the right direction. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 11:19, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

Proposal to implement a topic ban

Its been 24 hours since this thread was opened, and there does seem to be consensus that something more needs to be done about this problem since rattling the saber didn't work last time. Therefore, I propose that we move to adopt a measure that stating that Carliertwo is hereby topic banned from all articles on or related to Siouxsie and the Banshees, broadly construed, and that the topic ban shall be in place indefinitely with an option for Carliertwo to appeal the topic ban after a period of one year by petition for a review of the topic ban at ANI. @MrX, TheGracefulSlick, PaleCloudedWhite, Only in death, Black Kite, Darkknight2149, Tarage, L3X1, and Blackmane: You were either pinged here when this opened or have opined above that this is the best course action, so I am recalling you here to get your input on this proposal. Gentlecollapse6, Greg Fasolino, Woovee, J Milburn, LessHeard vanU, and SilkTork you were pinged here at Carliertwo's request. As it would be irresponsible of me to disregard Carliertwo's earlier insistence that you also be involved in this matter, I would like to invite you to weigh in this matter as well, in the spirit of AGF. TomStar81 (Talk) 08:04, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• Conditional Support Enough already, we need to end this disruptive behavior. If Carliertwo isn't going to change then this option is the next best thing. TomStar81 (Talk) 08:04, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
  • I want to make it clear here that I am not advocating for anything being done while Carliertwo is blocked, that would be unethical. I am merely moving forward with a proposal here to gauge the interest in topic ban. We will of course be patient and wait to hear back from the accused, as AGF necessitates. In the mean time, though, it would be beneficial to here back on the proposal insofar as its points relate to the case. It seemed we were agreed above that a topic ban would be a good idea, but I'm uncertain if an unblock condition would be a good idea. I'm also uncertain if it would be wise to debate the merits of revoking the topic ban at ANI. These points we can discuss without needing to wait for Carliertwo, as they are simply a matter of weighing the needs of the community against the allegations here. If we all agree on the points than the proposal then if the topic ban does turn out to the favored option we will be on the same page. TomStar81 (Talk) 15:55, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
• I've just looked and note that Carliertwo is under a 48 hour block so is unable to respond here. If Carliertwo is able to reflect on the concerns raised, and give an assurance that he will discuss concerns rather than engaging in edit wars, that he will take on board that Wikipedia by the nature of what we are includes negative comments on subjects, even Siouxsie and the Banshees, and that he will abide by consensus, then a ban is not necessary. We should wait until Carliertwo is able to respond. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 10:57, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• I concur with SilkTork and would like to see Carliertwo given a chance to show they understand why their approach was wrong. If they cannot learn to be more neutral and less defensive of this band/articles, and continue to express conspiracy theories about PaleCloudedWhite's motives and editing biases, then yes, a ban is necessary. But perhaps Carliertwo can learn. Yesterday I tried at length to explain these problems to Carliertwo, perhaps it will sink in. I think, considering that this editor has in fact done much good work on the SATB articles, they should be given one more chance to learn how to be a more neutral WIki editor.Greg Fasolino (talk) 13:55, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
• Comment (Neutral) - Whatever the result is, I think we should wait for the user's current 48-hour block to expire before making a decision and closing the discussion. We should see what their response is. Their response and/or defense is important, even in the hypothetical situation where the user shoots themself in the foot (not to outright predict that they will). DarkKnight2149 14:11, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - If they can explain why their approach was incorrect, tone down the snarky retaliatory comments, and follow-up through with a more neutral mindset, then I would see no reason to implement a topic ban. Let us see what Carliertwo has to say when they are unblocked and we can decide.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 14:23, 29 March 2017 (UTC)
• I'm fine waiting till the block expires. Carliertwo is a 10 year veteran here, while not as prolific as other editors with the same tenure, they have nonetheless been a solid contributor and that warrants consideration. Blackmane (talk) 20:43, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

And given that one of the articles they created currently has Good Article status (in addition to what you just said), I'm inclined to agree. DarkKnight2149 20:47, 29 March 2017 (UTC)

• Reply of Carliertwo: After reading advices and explanations, I realize that I've made a mistake of judgement. I shouldn't have withdrawn this review (quote + source) and only let her name appear and a simple mention of her review. I had done this because I've read many times she's a controversial writer, and as none of her articles is available on Rock's Backpages, I took it as a sign that maybe her work was not accepted by all of her peers. With the benefit of hindsight, I recognize, I was wrong as the only criteria that matters is the reliability of the source. (Her review was supervised by an editor in chief before publishing). I understand now very well the concerns of NPOV that my revert has raised. The next times, when I disagree with an edit and when one of my edits is reverted, I will use the talk, will try to find a compromise and in the end, abide to the consensus. I will also work to be more civil when I have a criticism to make. Carliertwo (talk) 15:59, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
• Comment - I really hope you have learned something Carliertwo but I apologize if I'm skeptical. For all we know, you are just saying this because you were faced with a legitimate possibility of being topic banned. During the ANI, you acted terribly hostile toward others (especially with me for some reason), casted aspirations, canvassed, and made excuses for your behavior. None of these factors bring about much confidence. Please note, however, I will agree with the consensus and I expect you to as well. That's even if it's not in your favor because, you must admit, your ability to be neutral is still at question.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:06, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

Pinging the editors who said they would comment when Carliertwo replied: Blakemane, Darkknight2149, Greg Fasolino, SilkTork, TomStar81. Anyone else of course can also respond.TheGracefulSlick (talk) 19:17, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose. Carliertwo has been advised and cautioned and has taken on board what has been said so there is no need for a ban. It may be worth stressing to Carliertwo that in situations like this, if there is a repeat of inappropriate attempts to control an article, and another ANI is called, that it is highly likely a topic ban will be the result. The best form of stewardship is seeking consensus when there are causes for concern. No editor should take it upon themselves to be the sole arbiter of what appears in an article. SilkTork ^{✔Tea time} 20:29, 30 March 2017 (UTC)
• Conditional Oppose I would be willing to give Carliertwo rope in the event that they apologize for all of this, and under the understanding that if it happens again, there won't be a second chance. --Tarage (talk) 23:29, 30 March 2017 (UTC)

I'm still waiting for his appology... --Tarage (talk) 03:01, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose I'm going with AGF on this given Carliertwo's statement above. Sanctions are only to prevent ongoing disruption and not for punishment. Blackmane (talk) 01:21, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
• Comment I am not going to vote either 'support' or 'oppose', because I brought this issue here for the wider community to assess. If Carliertwo is not topic banned but has learned that editors other than myself view their conduct as unacceptable, I am content with that, and I hope that neither myself nor any other editor has to raise this issue here again, for it is wearisome. I would add for the information of Carliertwo that I really do have records by the band - three SATB vinyl LPs, three SATB CD LPs, three SATB vinyl 45s, and two Creatures vinyl LPs - but it should not be necessary for editors to have to establish a fan status before they are 'allowed' to edit the SATB articles. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 11:34, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
• Conditional oppose - I've been neutral so far but, when a user apologises for their behaviour, I take it as a sign that they themselves realise that they did something wrong. I oppose this topic ban, as long as they don't repeat what they specifically apologised for. This does not include accusations that they did not apologise for. DarkKnight2149 15:04, 31 March 2017 (UTC)
• Comment Conduct issues aside, the criticism of Burchill's review is certainly as noteworthy as the review itself. I don't disagree that the review and quote be included, but not without giving the reader a reasonable idea that the reviewer had a overt dislike of punk music, was notably controversial and disparaging in her reviews and her words attracted rebuttal from other noteworthy people, like many of her deliberately provocative reviews did. She's a somewhat 'special case' and it would disingenuous to present her opinion as representative of popular consensus on the subject of the punk movement. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 13:11, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

No, the review is currently included as the sole negative perspective among a mass of overwhelmingly positive comments from other journalists, so in no way could including it be referred to as presenting her opinion as "representative of popular consensus on the subject of the punk movement". Some people don't like punk music; that doesn't make their views any less valid. PaleCloudedWhite (talk) 13:23, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

My point is that there is notable pretext and addendum to her conclusion that ought to be included. And some people don't like curry - not sure I'd be asking them for a critique of Indian restaurants in my local area. But if I did, its probably right I know they throw up on cue at the thought of a Jalfrezi. 62.255.118.6 (talk) 12:05, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose for the same reasons as others stated above.Greg Fasolino (talk) 15:14, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

212.250.164.170

User:212.250.164.170 keeps adding "Dr" to this film maker's name which kills the link. I see no mention of that film maker having a "dr." prefix, but I am not sure whether or not I am right or user:212.250.164.170 is right. CLCStudent (talk) 15:48, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

CLCStudent. You are correct. See MOS:HONORIFIC. TimothyJosephWood 15:56, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Also warned. TimothyJosephWood 15:57, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

FYI, this is an inside joke from Hello Internet. Haran did receive an honorary Doctor of Letters, and whether or not it actually grants him the privilege of using the honorific, they use it (jokingly) on the podcast. --Fru1tbat (talk) 18:23, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

We badly need some backlogs cleared out

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WP:AIV and WP:RFPP. I hate to push my concerns to the front of the line but the first admin who reads this needs to semi-protect Paul Joseph Watson immediately. CityOfSilver 03:24, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Can we go back to our secret admin cabal soiree now? The champagne is getting warm. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:43, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

Had to go get ice. El_C 05:06, 3 April 2017 (UTC)

I suggest you use frozen grapes. Won't dilute the champagne that way. Blackmane (talk) 06:41, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

LOL ~Oshwah~^{(talk) (contribs)} 02:20, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

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This Administrator NeilN Has Continuously Abused His Rights

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[here] and also here] shows disruptive editing done by a Wikipedia Administrator, who is supposed to behave with all proper conduct. I edited this article Beyoncé and he reverted my edits stating it was unsourced, (even though he knew it was still under construction) I held my peace and re-edited the page, this time inserting two sources from the onset he still went ahead & reverted it. this time saying it was "undue" please what Wikipedia policy supports that?? "Undue" ?? so technically what he did was because he didn't like my inclusion he just reverted it because he could so. I want other Administrators to please look into this, if I am at a wrong place a re-direction to where best suites this sort of case would be appreciated. A look into the history of NeilN shows this attitude of him/her is not fit to be an Administrator. Why would a person purposely try and suppress information? I'm ready to go any length for this situation at hand Wikipedia permits me to edit and contribute to information as long as I have very good sources to backup my contributions. Wikipedia states that I should be bold. I know I'm on my right, if he NeilN can produce / show me a policy or guideline that empowers him or anyone to edit in a disruptive manner at will I'd apologize & retreat. I also am not perfect, but I would never abuse a right and privileged bestowed upon me in the manner he NeilN has. if required of me I would produce links to him & other junior editors having altercations up to the point of junior editors referring to him as very unfit to be an Administrator — Preceding unsigned comment added by Celestina007 (talk • contribs) 01:12, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

This editor... Anyways, Talk:Beyoncé#The_Deity_Oshun (posted after my second revert) --NeilN ^{talk to me} 01:14, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

I'm not even sure what to say to this... I see no problem with NeilN's edits. EvergreenFir (talk) 01:17, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

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Saint Joseph Preparatory High School

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An editor boldly moved the above page that has a RM ongoing. Not looking for any discipline here, just an undo of the move. Thanks. John from Idegon (talk) 09:34, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

You don't need an admin for that move. -- zzuuzz ^(talk) 10:02, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

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Censorship by NeilN

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I looked through the edit history of this talk page and found that for several days after these reports on Ms Rice started to appear in the media, User:NeilN was censoring efforts to discuss it on this talk page. How is Wikipedia supposed to work when long-time editors try to control discussions and efforts to add content? This isn't the first time I've seen or heard about this and I understand it's one of the reasons that Wikipedia's editor population has decreased so markedly over the years. By the way, after this statement was originally posted by a different editor, NeilN removed the comment and indef blocked the account. Kekinstein (talk) 14:48, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Just FYI: Anyone who has this user page and this talk page is pretty much WP:NOTHERE. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 15:11, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Incidentally, if you want people to take you seriously, you should at least provide some diffs or idea of WTF you're talking about. What reports on Ms Rice? Sure we could hunt around contrib histories but when you force us to do that, many won't bother and even if we do, you've given us good reason to assume you're probably wrong. Nil Einne (talk) 16:57, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Susan Rice. The "censorship" was me enforcing WP:BLPTALK and removing stuff like this and this. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 17:04, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, further proving my point that when you come here with no diffs and a confusing random statements "several days after these reports on Ms Rice started to appear in the media" we have no real reason to take your complaint seriously. Even more so when you start to talk about censorship. Nil Einne (talk) 17:13, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

• Darn it, I missed National Shit on NeilN Day again. Drmies (talk) 22:41, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

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violation of wp:agf and wp:civil by this user

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[[16]] ABaNDODU (talk) 12:49, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

There must be an erro because the above diff is from 2002. L3X1 (distant write) 14:38, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

May be a bit more than that, ADaNDODU has two edits, 1 in his user page and 1 here. The page that comes up has a discusssion going on about WP:OVERLINK , but no civility violations there or in edit summaries.  Ҝ Ø Ƽ Ħ  14:41, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

• Given that the user created an account, posted this apparently nonsensical thread, and then unredlinked themselves... seems socky. TimothyJosephWood 14:43, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

It is most important :-

First Administrator Re-open the Afd Close : .(.which was previously closed by Bad NAC.)...

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Julio_Sadorra&diff=763684305&oldid=763652690 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Julio_Sadorra&diff=763684584&oldid=763684305

Second Administrator user:Favonian Closed the Afd immediately with out permission from first administrator. It is purely vandalism https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Julio_Sadorra&diff=763695063&oldid=763684584

If the first administrator is correct , user:Favonian is wrong...This user supported the article creator and saved the article

(ABaNDODU (talk) 14:51, 7 April 2017 (UTC))

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Remarks on nonbinary people

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Could I have some independent eyes on whether the comment made by Chris troutman here on the RfC to adopt a default gender neutral style is within our understanding of WP:Civil, and in the light of his clarifications as to what he meant, after I suggested he consider removing or rewriting his comment at User_talk:Chris_troutman#RfC.

I am not expecting any specific action, but I and probably Chris would benefit from some advice on acceptability of comments like these in a RfC process.

Thanks --Fæ (talk) 18:08, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, I'd also like some clarification from the aggregate of admins if my comments violate WP:NPA. I think while Fæ has the best intent, I rankle at being treated in this manner. That the matter has been brought to ANI indicates to me that one of us deserves a block. Chris Troutman (talk) 18:16, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

(ec) Chris, you have a history of insensitive remarks on this site (this comment, in which you suggest "people with mental illness" should not be administrators, still weighs heavily on my mind for its ignorance and narrow-mindedness). Many of your remarks seem designed specifically to provoke outrage, and while I'm no great champion of the über-PC movement, I think it's time you recognized that words can hurt people who ask nothing more than a little compassion and understanding. It paints you in a negative light when you dismiss well-intentioned proposals for inclusivity as "nonsense." I don't see any administrative action required here, but why not try to tone it down a little if it saves people some grief? – Juliancolton | ^Talk 18:28, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

If you ask for opinions, you shouldn't be surprised if you actually get them. You may consider his opinion narrowminded and insensitive, but being openminded and sensitive are not project requirements. Being civil is, but the remarks in question arent uncivil. Kleuske (talk) 18:56, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

• (edit conflict)I'm not seeing a personal attack or even incivility here. Chris words his comment somewhat on the blunt side, but not moreso than is commonly seen as acceptable around here. In fact, I often prefer having people disagree with me in a straightforward and blunt manner. The Wordsmith^{Talk to me} 18:25, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

While I may find it a tad "off" for lack of a better word, it is still civil, and trying to stifle his speech would be worse in my opinion. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:21, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Certainly I'm keen to ensure all views about the proposal are welcome. I balked at the comment about the "non-conformers", which was made clearer on Chris' talk page. I am prepared to let it pass, but it does make for an RfC that will not itself feel welcoming for nonbinary people; a group who are not the intended subject of the proposal but should feel welcome to have a voice without it being an argument. Perhaps more could be said in the RfC preamble to keep the tone welcoming? --Fæ (talk) 18:30, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

• User:The Wordsmith, I see nothing civil about that comment, and the only thing that keeps me from blocking is that there is no explicit addressee for the comment, which simply disparages a whole group of editors in what can only be described as pretty revolting and demeaning language. User:Juliancolton, you were going somewhere good and then you throw in a BS comment like "über-PC movement"? Seriously, what gives? Are you being oppressed too? Drmies (talk) 18:52, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

• Also, why is this RFC a subpage of RFC, and not part of a wikiproject or village pump/policy? Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:33, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

This was discussed in the drafting, and it was pointed out that if just a subpage of the LGBT+ WikiProject, there would be complaints that it was less visible for consultation when it is a project-wide policy change, even if only a minor one to certain phrases. The link to it remains on that WikiProject though. --Fæ (talk) 18:37, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Right, so why not put it at village pump? right now, you're not getting traffic except from the LGBT project and now at ANI. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:41, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Do you mean the policy page on the Village Pump? I'm happy to try and move it to a better location. --Fæ (talk) 18:47, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Yes, VPP would be the best place for this. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:54, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

• Also (x2), the RFC is not written neutrally. It already supposes the right way to do things. It should be closed and rewritten without pushing people to vote support. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:43, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

  That would mean not actually having a proposal to look at though. It was based on the WikiProject discussion and the policy document that evolved from a Village Pump discussion on Commons, the issues raised are pretty much identical. If people have suggestions for changes, I'm sure they will highlight them, but the basic premise of keeping policies gender neutral or not, is something you either think will make Wikipedia more welcoming or, as per your view, it's "nonsense". Thanks --Fæ (talk) 18:47, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

  , no, the RFC should have been, "Based on the discussion above, should Wikipedia adapt gender neutral terms?" That is a neutral RFC. Your RFC isn't.Sir Joseph ^(talk) 18:49, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

  I don't know what you mean by "adapt", what is being adapted? --Fæ (talk) 19:02, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

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Editor changing numbers with no explanation or change in sources

I discovered Jan samel (talk · contribs) at Ethiopia[17] changing a population figure and the date (to 2017 despite the source being 2015). He's done this at a number of articles today. Doug Weller talk 15:25, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

No doubt about it, there has been roughly a high volume of disruptive editing, and I do indeed think that Jan samel (talk · contribs) seems to be on the WP:NOTHERE side. SportsLair (talk) 15:46, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

All his contributions involve tweaking of numbers, none with any references. I will go through his edits, but the problem is compounded by the fact that most data was already unreferenced. -- P 1 9 9  ✉ 17:46, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

Looks like Jan samel is not logging in anymore, see contributions by 122.54.181.158. Also check contributions by 49.149.67.222 -- P 1 9 9  ✉ 19:46, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

173.230.176.176

Re: Discussions in User talk:173.230.176.176 and Talk:Toronto streetcar system#Steve Munro

173.230.176.176 has expressed very strong personal opinions against a certain source (Steve Munro) used in articles, and seeks to discredit that source by modifying articles mentioning his name.

Two editors recommend that I ask an administrator to block 173.230.176.176; see the last remarks in Talk:Toronto streetcar system#Steve Munro. Thanks.TheTrolleyPole (talk) 02:46, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

IP advances an argument: "deliberate attempt to promote Munro as an authority on transit"—what's there to be worthy an ANI report, to mention an AIV one? El_C 02:58, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

The IP has a whole two edits to its name—but the holder of the account still deserves to be informed of this ANI report (I have gone ahead and done this), as the directions at the top of the page instruct. I would be concerned with WP:BITE on the part of the three of you. El_C 03:02, 4 April 2017 (UTC)

I have also noticed problems with the user attempting to erase Steve Munro's name. He is reputable, notable enough to have his own article, and co-led a campaign to retain streetcars in Toronto. Johnny Au _{(talk/contributions)} 03:54, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Strangely, 173.230.176.176 does not object to my relying on commentary in a Steve Munro article, but that I am attributing Munro's commentary (including his opinion and analysis) to Munro. 173.230.176.176 insists that the info in the Wikipedia article (including some based on Munro's opinion/analysis) all be attributed to the TTC leaving the reader with the false impression that it comes from some official TTC announcement, which it does not. 173.230.176.176 apparently monitors the Wikipedia article and backs out mods not to 173.230.176.176's liking. Thus, in order to correct the attribution again, I need a resolution of this issue. I do NOT want to engage in an editing war. TheTrolleyPole (talk) 01:25, 6 April 2017 (UTC)

Treat by User:Nubailo

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See here.....--Moxy (talk) 00:55, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

WMF emailed. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 01:00, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

...and Neil beat me to the revdel. Cheers,
 — Berean Hunter (talk) 01:01, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

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String of bad edits by User:Mohsenaghaloo

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Basically deleted the article of Germi, added unsourced puffery content at Chalak, Ardabil diff, and racked up a load of warnings for COI, personal analysis, and disruptive editing. He either needs to get his act together and make edits which show an understanding of WP, or be blocked for NOTHERE. I believe this editor could be an asset to Wikipedia of they stop the bad editing. L3X1 (distant write) 02:49, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

Notified. I wasn't sure if this was a cut and dried AIV case, so I brought it here. L3X1 (distant write) 02:50, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

not complaining, but there is a AIV backlog, a racist edit that needs revdelled, and it looks like all the Admins are offline. L3X1 (distant write) 03:09, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

 Blocked. Beeblebrox (talk) 04:02, 8 April 2017 (UTC)

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