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October 27

Apron part names

When fruits or vegetables are gathered and placed into the center of an apron to hold them when the person picks them, what is this part of the apron called (if it has a special name)? --Christie the puppy lover (talk) 13:31, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure whether my mental image of this picking activity is the same as yours, but I'd tend to refer to it as putting the fruits or vegetables in the lap of the garment (definition 2a here: "the clothing that lies on the knees, thighs, and lower part of the trunk when one sits"). In Golding's translation of Ovid's Metamorphoses, Proserpine, picking flowers, "fillde hir Maund [i.e., basket] and Lap" with them. Not really a "part of the apron", though, I suppose. Deor (talk) 16:16, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Here in England, ladies' undergarments of a generous size are called "apple-catchers". Alansplodge (talk) 23:19, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A search of Google Books brought up this obscure quote:

Hold up the lap of your smock-frock , and mind you hold it firm! ” Loopooj did so, without knowing why; and instantly the gypsy seized a huge armful of flaming wood in his bare hands, as coolly as if he were only picking apples..."

The Wizard King: A Story of the Last Moslem Invasion of Europe (1895). Alansplodge (talk) 00:03, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The original meaning of English lap is the loose-hanging lower part of a garment; the sense seen in lap dog – the part of a sitting person's body covered by such a garment flap – is a later development. An apron can be more than a lap, commonly also covering a substantial part of the upper torso. Here someone fills "the lap of the apron" with potatoes, and here an old woman stacks ears of corn in "the lap of her apron". --Lambiam 10:25, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Citing Wikipeda

When I cite Wikipedia as a source, should I simply use 'Wikipedia'? or 'Wikipedia The Free Encyclopedia'. Thanks! Loltol (talk) 23:41, 27 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The real answer is you should never cite Wikipedia as a source. Look up the sources that Wikipedia uses, and cite them instead. (Ideally you should check to make sure they actually say what Wikipedia says they say.)

In fact this is what you should do with any encyclopedia or indeed any tertiary source, not just Wikipedia. But it's an especially urgent issue with Wikipedia because of the "anyone can edit" nature of the site. Out-and-out nonsense tends to get removed pretty fast (unless it's legitimately in the sources, which can happen, but there's not that much we can do about that). However, the particular snapshot you looked at might well have a bad edit that hasn't been removed yet. --Trovatore (talk) 01:45, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There can be legitimate reasons to cite Wikipedia in an academic paper, as in the article "Organizational Identity and Paradox: An Analysis of the 'Stable State of Instability' of Wikipedia’s Identity".^[1] This paper is also an illustration of how not to do it: it cites various Wikipedia policy pages without identifying the revision, thus paradoxically not acknowledging the perpetual instability that is the paper's very inspiration. Wikipedia has also been cited in US court decisions in support of arguments how a term is commonly understood. Another reasonable case is (IMO) as a service to one's readers in the form of a "further reading" reference. --Lambiam 09:58, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Loltol: Go to the article you want to site. On the left side list of links, there is "Cite this page". It will show you the citation in various formats, such as APA, MLA, and several more. You should use "Wikipedia, The Free Encyclopedia." Example: [2] RudolfRed (talk) 02:31, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

October 28

Number gestures article missing

Hi!

There is a Chinese number gestures article but there is none about the other cultures. I think it would be interesting to create one. The Chinese one could even be merged into it. What do you guys think? 58.186.64.248 (talk) 03:05, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It doesn't matter what anyone here thinks. What matters is whether reliable, independent, published sources are available. The article you link has only one citation, which is to a blog, so one approach would be to broaden out that article so that it has a global perspective, as long as you can find appropriate sources.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:32, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, the primary function of the Reference Desks is to find references for editors, so get you started:-

Number Words and Number Symbols: A Cultural History of Numbers (p. 201 onwards) by Karl Menninger.

Alansplodge (talk) 11:00, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia Has An Article On Everything! - I have just found our article on Finger-counting which may cover much of the same ground. I have added a link in the "See also" section of the Chinese article. Alansplodge (talk) 11:26, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Names of The Devil?

Is there a list anywhere of all the different names of Satan/The Devil? Don't need this for any nefarious purpose. Just something that I was talking about today with someone. There's supposed to be hundreds?

Apart from Satan and The Devil, I know Lucifer, Beelzebub, Baphomet. --146.200.107.70 (talk) 03:32, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You could start with Devil in Christianity and then search for the word "devil" in Wikipedia. I don't know that there's an explicit list of the names. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 04:29, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wiktionary has a list at wikt:Thesaurus:Satan. Amble (talk) 04:43, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Had been doing some googling around and come across some of those names, but I find people arguing over whether some of those are *The* Devil, or merely *a* devil. --146.200.107.70 (talk) 05:06, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Old Nick, Old Scratch or Mr. Scratch, Old Harry, the Prince of Darkness (who's the King of Darkness???), Father of Lies. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:07, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Iblis, Samael, Belial are other names I heard. What was the Goat of Mendes? Not sure if that was Satan (or the baphomet) or an associate of Satan. Just been reading the internet after seeing this thread. --Iloveparrots (talk) 08:36, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In the Abrahamic religions, including mainline Christian sects, there is only one supernatural adversary of God seducing us mortals to sin, so then a discussion whether a synonym refers to any member of a plurality is moot. --Lambiam 09:28, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I think that's putting it too strongly. There's often considered one who's in charge of the others, but there could be lots of others, possibly fallen angels, or in Islam impious djinn (I gather that there are also good djinn; djinn, like men, have free will and will be judged on the Last Day, but they seem to qualify as "supernatural" in any case).

A lot of the Jewish and Christian lore about these beings is not actually in the Bible, but the Bible has references to it, as in the "principalities and powers" of Ephesians 6:12. Principalities and powers are two of the ranks in the hierarchy of angels (in this case, presumably fallen angels). --Trovatore (talk) 23:23, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Fair enough. But you will not see them referred to as "devils" in doctrinal texts; it is always "the Devil and his angels". --Lambiam 14:45, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Abbadon" is another. Was "Damian" associated with the devil until the Omen movies? Not sure. --Iloveparrots (talk) 08:53, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Be aware that different traditions have different definitions of "The Devil", and that some names are in some traditions alternative names of that supposed entity whilst in others the same names are names of entities distinct from "The Devil". See for example Demonology. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.200.65.29 (talk) 13:50, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Virtually all the names listed above have articles for them and they explain how difficult the question really is to answer. Because this is mythology with no outside, objective, reality to test and report on, the list of names is going to be very open ended, starting with the person's religion and how pedantic they want to be. For some, all these figures are pseudonyms of "the great evil" but for others they are distinct beings. Epithet#Religion is going to come into play. Matt Deres (talk) 18:58, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You can find a bunch of them in one of my favorite Robert Burns poems, Address to the Deil. Those are in Scots but you can easily find sites that have it in translation. --Trovatore (talk) 19:41, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. I only know him from "there's a moose loose aboot this hoose". Thanks to everyone else who gave answers too. --146.200.107.70 (talk) 20:01, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Don't forget George Spiggott :-) MarnetteD|Talk 16:22, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Who designed the copyright symbol?

The article Copyright symbol doesn't mention who designed it, and I can't find it either. Someone invented a C within a circle, to label stuff that can't be simply copied by anyone, and everyone is copying his work to say you can't copy their work. It just doesn't seem fair. Joepnl (talk) 23:26, 28 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Letters in a circle had already been in use as symbols for a variety of purposes. For example, the symbol ®, a letter R enclosed within a circle, was used to indicated a registered trademark or service mark, as a non-intrusive alternative to a text such as "Registered in U. S. Patent Office",^[3] So when the Copyright Commission needed a less intrusive alternative to the phrase "Copyright Joseph X. Shmoe", a plausible scenario is that they took the familiar encircled R and replaced the letter by a C. The "designers" of the copyright symbol may have been copycats. --Lambiam 03:56, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Joepnl -- in any case raster renderings of font characters which are used "functionally" (as opposed to pure decoration) are uncopyrightable in the United States, and basically everything published in the U.S. before 1926 is out of copyright (in the form in which it was published before 1926). AnonMoos (talk) 06:34, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The symbol was introduced in 1909, as noted Here. It does not note who first put it together, however. As noted above, it is ineligible for copyright today, and likely ever, for several reasons. 1) It is out-of-date, meaning that any copyright that may have existed has already expired long ago. 2) As a simple letter and shape, used for functional purposes, it likely does not meet the threshold of originality required for copyright to exist, even hypothetically and EVEN saying all of that 3) as a work for hire, such copyright would belong not to the person, but to their employer, who in this case would be United States Copyright Office, which as a US Federal agency, automatically releases all of its work into the public domain as a matter of policy (see Copyright status of works by the federal government of the United States). --Jayron 32 13:23, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

October 29

Home schooling

A question arose for me today, that I had really never given any thought to before. It is about home-schooling ... in the USA, in particular. Let's say that a child goes through home-schooling for all twelve or thirteen years (grades K-12). In other words, he never stepped foot into any school at all, public or private. At some point, does he ever get any type of a diploma, or a high school diploma, etc.? I can't imagine that home-schooling parents have the "authority" to issue a diploma. I also can't imagine that the particular state agencies watch over their home-schooling parents and students like a hawk to somehow "approve" of some "official" version of a high school diploma being issued. How does this work? Or, with home-schooling, are their simply no diplomas at all, ever? Just curious. Thanks. Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 04:07, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It probably varies from state to state in the U.S. Presumably they can always get a GED... AnonMoos (talk) 06:23, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See Homeschooling#All-in-one curricula for one possible solution. --Viennese Waltz 07:04, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sometimes it's a whole lot quicker to Google than to ask questions here. Typing "homeschooling usa diploma" resulted in (0.72 seconds):

And several others. Alansplodge (talk) 11:32, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It also varies from state-to-state, so check this page out for state-by-state breakdown of homeschool requirements. Officially issued high school transcripts are usually used for college admissions, so since homeschoolers don't have those, they often have to jump through some extra hoops to get into post-secondary institutions (mainly to verify the quality of the program they used during home schooling) but otherwise, colleges and universities will accept homeschooled students. See here for more information. --Jayron 32 12:26, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Estimated casualties of dam collapse

I'd like to find scientific estimates of casualties in case of collapse of large dams, such as the Three Gorges Dam or the Aswan Dam in particular. Do you have any idea where I could find them? Thank you --195.62.160.60 (talk) 15:57, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Does This help? --Jayron 32 18:07, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

It is an interesting study but limited to past cases, unfortunately. --79.26.36.130 (talk) 06:53, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sodom's sin and Ezekiel

Sodom_and_Gomorrah#The_sin_of_Sodom says the homosexuality assumption is based on the exegesis of the biblical text. However, Ezekiel 16:49 says specifically "this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom: pride, fulness of bread, and careless ease". Why was this explanation discarded and homosexuality has been assumed instead (especially since per Book_of_Ezekiel#Composition, "most scholars today accept the basic authenticity of the book")? 212.180.235.46 (talk) 20:54, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As a side question: when was the last time anyone was prosecuted for “gomorrahy” … No one talks about those evil Gomorrahites these days! It’s all Sodomy this and Sodomites that. Obvious media bias Blueboar (talk) 21:20, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

George Carlin made a similar observation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:13, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Crap… that’s like saying “Simpsons did it”. And I thought I was being original. Blueboar (talk) 22:39, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, even Wiktionary has it: wikt:Gomorrahy. --Amble (talk) 22:43, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Go forth and sin no morrah. Clarityfiend (talk) 22:21, 29 October 2021 (UTC) [reply]

You're not going to find an entry in someone's journal saying "today, we have decided to start misinterpreting this passage." All you can do is look through what writings are available and see when, and among which groups, the common theological interpretation was displaced by a new conventional wisdom. (If you find info, clue me in, I'm interested in this topic.) Society was probably less concerned with gay stuff at a certain point, then anti-gay sentiment rose, and biblical interpretation changed with it--with society's prejudices and certain Bible verses forming a feedback loop of sorts after this. Temerarius (talk) 00:39, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

At the risk of stating the obvious, the connection is most likely to refer to Genesis 19, am episode where two men described as angels arrive in Sodom, who are rescued by Lot from a mob who surround Lot's house demanding "bring them out unto us, that we may know them", according to the King James Bible, or "have sex with them" according to the New International Version. Unless this is a terrible mistranslation of the Hebrew text, it leaves little room for debate.

I found Day in Mamre, Night in Sodom: Abraham and Lot in Genesis 18 and 19 by Robert Ignatius Letellier, which has lengthy preview on Google Books. Alansplodge (talk) 07:49, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The verb used, יָדַע (yadá), can mean "to know", but is commonly used in the Hebrew Bible as a euphemism for having sexual intercourse, as in English in the KJV translation of Genesis 4:1: And Adam knew Eve his wife; and she conceived, and bare Cain, and said, I have gotten a man from the LORD. In the context, the demand can hardly be the expression of a wish to get better acquainted with the guests. Apart from the gender aspect, rape as well as the violation of sacrosanct hospitality were already by themselves horrendous crimes, also when perpetrated on angels incarnated as maidens. It is not clear to me how much the apparent homosexuality of the outside rabble added to that in the mind of the audience. --Lambiam 13:45, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So finally we know what "yada yada ..." really means. :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:39, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably it happened when the priests decided they fancied a life of "pride, fulness of bread, and careless ease" themselves.Chuntuk (talk) 17:04, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You ask why "the sin" as stated by Ezekiel is overlooked by those who favour exigetical explanation. I think the problem is that you've read that verse in isolation. Read on to the next verse (they're 16:48-49 in my Bible, but I guess 49-50 in yours), which says "And they became haughty and did abomination before Me, and I removed them when I saw." The first verse lays out the background, that the people of the town became wealthy and scorned the poor ... the second makes vague allusion to the "abomination" which was punished. The term "abomination" has a few specific meanings in Biblical Hebrew - see Abomination_(Judaism)#Toebah. Hope it makes better sense now. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 17:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"Fellow" at US universities?

If someone is described as a "fellow" at an American university is he/she a faculty member or not? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 23:15, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See Fellow#In_the_U.S. for some hints. Giving more information about context might help answering the question. --Bumptump (talk) 23:50, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Bumptump I'm trying to add relevant categories to the new article about Alison Kafer, based on this paragraph:

"After her M.A. she was a Visiting Dissertation Fellow in Women’s Studies at the University of California, Santa Barbara from 2002 to 2003. Following her Ph.D. she was an Ed Roberts Fellow in Disability Studies at the University of California, Berkeley from 2006 to 2007."

Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 00:20, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like she was a research fellow, basically a postdoc, but paid through some fellowship, not an employee whose salary is part of the university budget. --Bumptump (talk) 01:17, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So no faculty categories for those fellowships, right? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 05:19, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

October 30

Is this a historical image or a fake one?

Please see https://ibb.co/52h8vhY This image is being widely circulated as the only authentic photograph of [Kunnathu Kunjahammed Haji] whom many people consider to be a martyr in a revolt against the British rule in Malabar, a southern region in India. On the photograph is written "A man who would be king-- The Guardian-- 24 January 1922". I suspect the genuineness of this image because Haji, a very devout person couldn't have sported such hairstyle in 1921. This is being celebrated as part of the release of a book on him. The author of the book claims that the British didn't allow him access to the image and he got it from some French archives. This strengthened my suspicion. Can somebody access the archive of the Guardian and find out the veracity or otherwise of this image? Thanks in advance.--2405:201:F00A:208C:EDA9:B50F:E5D9:7DC (talk) 05:38, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I can access scans of old Guardian articles through newspapers.com (thanks to The Wikipedia Library) and the image does not appear in that date's paper. The Guardian was then called The Manchester Guardian, FYI. Firefangledfeathers (talk) 07:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Unless of course it's some some other "Guardian". --184.144.99.72 (talk) 08:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Firefangledfeathers, Thanks for the information. Is this report there? I mean, in the Manchester Guardian?

https://ibb.co/dkGY0By

2405:201:F00A:208C:1150:A406:8F22:6BD5 (talk) 08:25, 30 October 2021 (UTC) Now I see that the local language Wikipedia attributes the image to Sciences et Voyages of August 10, 1922. https://ml.wikipedia.org/wiki/വാരിയൻ_കുന്നത്ത്_കുഞ്ഞഹമ്മദ്_ഹാജി[reply]

There are WP:SYNTH issues here. You cannot assume the photograph was taken in 1921 unless someone says it was. The reference to "A man who would be king - The Guardian, 24 January 1922" appears beside the picture on the cover of Sultan Variamkuman by Ramees Mohammed, published by Twohorn on or about 29 October 2021. There is no representation that the picture was published with the linked Guardian newspaper report. The link does not indicate the name of the newspaper or the date of publication, but since the report is datelined "Calicut, Monday...Reuter" it is a reasonable assumption that it was published in the issue of Tuesday, 24 January 1922. The Wikipedia article's birthdate of 1883 fails verification - the accompanying reference says he was born "sometime in the 1870s". This [4] says "No photographs of him exist, as he never allowed to photograph, but everyone remembers for his trademark Red Turkish cap (Thurkkithoppi) with a Green band around it."

Sciences et Voyages was a weekly which commenced publication with issue 1 on 4 September 1919. The issue of 10 August 1922 was Issue No. 154. The National Library of France appears to possess a copy. 2A00:23A8:D89:2A01:BC4B:6E9C:EA79:D823 (talk) 15:32, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Guardian in 1922 would be The Guardian (Anglican newspaper). I do not know if its archives are online. DuncanHill (talk) 10:07, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1940s illustrator in the Radio Times

The article The Dark Tower (radio play) is illustrated by a cutting from the Radio Times of the 18th of January 1946. Can we identify the artist? The style is, to me, very much of its time and is ringing a distant bell. Thanks, DuncanHill (talk) 12:09, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Eric Fraser was one of the regular illustrators on the RT during that period. Mikenorton (talk) 19:40, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

And, (as you presumably noticed), there is an ef engraved on the illustration. 2603:6081:1C00:1187:FD1F:8BE3:D245:A409 (talk) 19:48, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Many thanks both, undoubtedly Fraser, he was the distant bell! I must admit I hadn't noticed the ef at first, but that is how he initialled some of his illustrations. DuncanHill (talk) 22:17, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Differences between American and British sign language

How come ASL simply involves making shapes with one hand while BSL involves having your hands interact with each other?? Georgia guy (talk) 12:13, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How come "water" is uisce in Irish but woda in Polish? In general, no explanation is needed when two different languages express the same concept differently. It is more astounding if they use the same form of expression. --Lambiam 15:47, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Lambiam, Irish is a Celtic language and Polish is a Slavic language. That's an easy answer to any question about why words in those language mismatch; they're in 2 different branches of the Indo-European language family. Georgia guy (talk) 15:57, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

So Irish and Polish are branches of one family, which is more than one can say for ASL and BSL, which do not share an ancestor. --Lambiam 16:54, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ASL is derived from French Sign Language, it's creation wasn't related to BSL. Nanonic (talk) 15:59, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In contrast, BSL is derived from... Georgia guy (talk) 16:00, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

?? Haven't you read the articles? Nanonic (talk) 16:01, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This question was brought to my mind because recently a user named Vanisaac added the BSL representations of each letter to the letter articles in Wikipedia. Georgia guy (talk) 16:04, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

More information about that in our fingerspelling article. Spelling out letters of the alphabet is an adjunct to sign language and is generally only used for proper nouns or abbreviations. Alansplodge (talk) 17:02, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Neither ASL or BSL are branches of Indo-European, or of any spoken language. AndyTheGrump (talk) 16:02, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ASL has its share of two-hand signs, though not for letters. —Tamfang (talk) 03:23, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

mysterious sculpture

here is a sculpture, with a very fine form, yet there is no indication of who the sculptor is. A carver of this mastery most likely has more sculptures somewhere

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/719450109207311660/ may someone help me

thank you — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:5C58:1860:F580:972D:A02E:E0A2 (talk) 15:16, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Met, where the work is held, gives the tentative ascription "Possibly by Polly (French, active ca. 1800)".^[5] They use the same artist assignment for one other work, representing a nymph, where the artist is further identified as a sculptor and merchant of plaster decorations in Paris, based on an inscrption POLI on the back of its base.^[6] --Lambiam 16:02, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

thank you, however I was already aware of that. perhaps I misguided by question. I curious as to who this poli is. A mythological figure in the nineteenth century entails the sculptor being of note. Maybe a last name for poli will enlighten the search. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1700:5C58:1860:F580:972D:A02E:E0A2 (talk) 16:09, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I think Polly was the surname of a sculptor and merchant of plaster decorations. But I can find no further information on this person. --Lambiam 23:38, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

ah, well thank you regardless. Sadly francois souchal's catalogue of french sculptors is only 17 and 18th centuries https://wpi.art/2019/01/07/french-sculptors-of-the-17th-and-18th-centuries/

curiously, I doubt a bit that poli is a name at all, it is odd for a french name unless the person is question has italian background, in case our search has been wrought. Furthermore maybe poli means polished or courteous in french I think — Preceding unsigned comment added by 107.77.232.54 (talk) 01:30, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Polly English (Norman): nickname for a courteous or amiable person (perhaps also sometimes given ironically to a boor), from OF poli agreeable, polite (lit. ‘polished’, past part. of OF polir, L polīre). ¶ Var.: Polley. ¶ Cogns.: Fr.: Pol(l)i, Pol(l)y. It.: Puliti (Tuscany). Sp.: Pulido (‘smart’, ‘neat’, ‘handsome’). ¶ Dims.: Fr. Pol(l)iet, Pol(l)iot. ¶ Pej.: Fr.: Poliard. —A Dictionary of Surnames by Patrick Hanks & Flavia Hodges, OUP 1988. —Tamfang (talk) 03:20, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, well, it exists as a name, furthermore tracing it it's leading us to at least one slice of a dinasty active in the trade of classical plasters [7] although dates are not particularly near of 1800. Otherwise an other link I forgot to note but only distantly related to arts is giving plenty of the same name, in an area in southern France. They do have a number of fancy palaces as it's well known down there (Nice) --Askedonty (talk) 20:51, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Can we get broader feedback on NHS Test and Trace?

I tried to ask about a name change, as it's just not really provided by the NHS, but apparently someone took that as needing to delete the only reference to the name being misleading. Surely an encyclopedia shouldn't just be governmental press releases? 92.0.5.48 (talk) 17:30, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The sentence "despite its name, the programme is not in fact run by the NHS" falls under no original research and is not suitable for the article. If you can find a reliable source that talks about the name being misleading, that can go in the article. --Viennese Waltz 18:57, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Would https://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entry/nhs-test-trace-private-sector_uk_5f6099e3c5b68d1b09c77477 be adequate? 92.0.5.48 (talk) 19:20, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

That's not for me to say. Personally, it looks like a rehash of a few people's social media posts on the subject and would not pass muster. But I don't own the article. You can add it as a source if you wish & see how long it lasts. --Viennese Waltz 19:49, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

To me it looks like standard reporting of journalistic investigation, with the mentioning of social media posts mainly for creating interest, not in support of substantive statements. --Lambiam 23:22, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that the NHS itself calls it "NHS Test and Trace" [8] [9] [10] seems to be a counter-argument. Alansplodge (talk) 16:49, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Did an obscure Dutch rower take this photograph?

For Chinua Achebe's article I have this photography: File:ASC Leiden - NSAG - van Dis 5 - 024 - A city roundabout with a modernistic fountain and a huge pool - Lagos, Nigeria - February 14, 1962.tiff for a contemporary image of when Achebe first moved there. The image information says that a "Maarten van Dis" took it linking to Maarten van Dis. As the purported photographer would be an obscure Dutch rower I am inclined to doubt this, but is anyone able to find evidence to support the assertion? Aza24 (talk) 21:10, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Commons has some info about the background of those photos at commons:Category:NSAG Collection. That page links to commons:Category:Maarten M.U. van Dis, showing a lot of other photos he took in Africa in the early 1960s. The commons category page is linked to the Wikidata entry about the rower. Both the info about the rower (sourced to athletics databases) and the info on the Commons page (sourced presumably to the photo archive, including this report) agree on the middle initials of the name ("Maarten M. U."), on the place where he was studying (Wageningen), and on the point that his field of study/work was engineering. There's of course nothing inherently implausible about an engineering student and traveller also having been a competitive rower at the age of 26, so I'd say we can accept that. Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:40, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Update: On Wikidata, the items about the rower and that about the photographer were merged on 25 October 2020, by User:Multichill (https://www.wikidata.org/w/index.php?title=Q99519260&diff=1297134185&oldid=1286611891). Maybe they can shed some more light on the issue? Fut.Perf. ☼ 21:45, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wait… the idea that the athlete and the photographer might be the same stems from a merge on WIKIDATA? And then propagated to us via COMMONS?

OH HELL NO!… this is exactly why WD is so hated here on WP.en Blueboar (talk) 21:58, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Aza24: Is it because he was a rower that you think he couldn't have taken a photograph of a bridge, or because he was a Dutchman? DuncanHill (talk) 22:09, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Both :) Though if you're asking seriously, it's because I trust absolutely nothing at the commons, and the single line in his WP article did not indicate that he would have any reason to be in Lagos in the 1960s and have a good camera that early in the history of photography (it just seemed too random to be true). Aza24 (talk) 22:14, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If this is the same Maarten M. U. van Dis, you can call him (country code +41) and ask. --Lambiam 22:39, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The info at Commons tells us that these photographs were made by some people, including engineer Mr. M. M. U. van Dis, as part of a group of Dutch students and some academics on a trip visiting African universities. It seems a good enough reason to visit Africa. The report of the trip links van Dis to Wageningen. How plausible is it that there were two different males of around the same age, both based in Wageningen and both named Maarten M. U. van Dis? --Lambiam 23:10, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

1962 wasn't "early in the history of photography", there were plenty of excellent cameras around then. DuncanHill (talk) 23:17, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks all, much appreciated! Looks like the commons was right (this time.....). Aza24 (talk) 23:29, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

There are several plausible reasons why students in engineering in the 1960's would have focused on photography besides bare the pride of reporting e.g the Selenium rectifier and the Selenium meter. Though a mystery regarding the nomenclature remains. The picture being attributed to a digital Leaf camera see Metadata. The same about the following 1970 ethnic study photography https://zh.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:ASC_Leiden_-_Rietveld_Collection_-_Nigeria_1970_-_1973_-_01_-_082_Kainji_Dam._A_man_with_a_white_headscarf_above_sparkling_water.jpg (there the engineer's point of vue being rather well illustrated)--Askedonty (talk) 09:07, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Is it plausible that the photographer and the rower are the same? I suppose so. Is it verifiable? No. We should not be linking them together based on a plausibility. THAT would be a conclusion that is based on original research. Our standard is verifiability. Blueboar (talk) 17:00, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

October 31

Idiomatic translation

Hi Folks!!, Can somebody who fluent in German please give a idiomatic translation to English of these quotes? .

Ritter Die Organisation der ganzen Gruppe reichte bis nach Paris, Belgien und Holland; sie wurde von Moskau aus in verschlüsselten Radiosendungen über Paris und Brüssel gesteuert.“

„[…] nicht nur über den Stand der Rüstungsproduktion, sondern sogar über Angriffspläne und Unternehmungen hinter der feindlichen Front unter hemmungsloser Ausnutzung amtlich erworbener Spezialkenntnisse.“

„Erst im August 1942 gelang es der Kriminalpolizei, die Hauptanstifter zu fassen und das ganze Komplott aufzudecken. Der Prozeß vor dem Reichskriegsgericht, in einwandfreier Form durchgeführt, konnte nicht anders als mit einer Massenhinrichtung enden.“

Thanks. The context is the Red Orchestra

scope_creep^Talk 15:16, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I'll assume that the word "Ritter" at the beginning of your first sentence is extraneous; the sentence wouldn't syntactically parse with it. Without it, we have:

"The organization of the group reached as far as Paris, Belgium and the Netherlands; it was directed from Moscow through encrypted radio messages via Paris and Brussels."
" […] not only about the state of the arms industry but even about military attack plans and operations behind enemy lines, making unscrupulous use of specialist knowledge acquired in [their] official capacity"
"It wasn't until 1942 that the Kriminalpolizei succeeded in arresting the main instigators and uncover the whole plot. The trial before the Reichskriegsgericht, conducted in a faultless manner, could not have resulted in anything other than a mass execution."

Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:13, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

(ec) An attempt:

Ritter: The organization of the whole group reached as far as Paris, Belgium and Holland; it received directions from Moscow in encrypted radio broadcasts via Paris and Brussels.
"[...] not only about the state of arms production, but even about attack plans and ventures behind the enemy front by the uninhibited exploitation of privileged information acquired through informants in their official capacity."
"Only in August 1942 did the police manage to catch the main instigators and uncover the whole plot. The trial before the Reich Court Martial, carried out in an impeccable form, could not end otherwise than with a mass execution."

Two remarks. In the first, I have added a colon, assuming that this is Ritter speaking – otherwise the German text does not make sense. And in the second quote, the literal translation "officially acquired" would create a false impression, as if this was in response to a FOIA request. Rather, the informants used their position in an official capacity to acquire the info. --Lambiam 22:39, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hey @Future Perfect at Sunrise:, @Lambiam: Thanks for that. Are yous up for doing a couple more, in the next couple of days. Yip. Excellent work. scope_creep^Talk 00:48, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note that we have linkable articles about the Kriminalpolizei and Reichskriegsgericht. 2601:648:8202:350:0:0:0:D4A (talk) 22:23, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

November 1

Does it have anything to do with WWI?

I heard that the jehovah`s witnesses believe that Satan fell to Earth in the year 1914, I would like to know do they have this belief because of the fact WWI started the same year? And if not what is the basis for it? 96.250.241.6 (talk · contribs)

Do you have a source for that?

Eschatology of Jehovah's Witnesses states, "Watch Tower Society publications teach that Jesus Christ returned invisibly and began to rule in heaven as king in October 1914. They state that the beginning of Christ's heavenly rule would seem worse initially for mankind because it starts with the casting out of Satan from heaven to the earth, which according to Revelation 12, would bring a brief period of "woe" to mankind." In the section Eschatology of Jehovah's Witnesses#Sign of "last days", it further says, "They claim that various calamities in the modern world constitute proof of these beliefs, such as the outbreak of World War I in August 1914, the Spanish flu epidemic in May 1918, the onset of World War II in 1939, the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001 and, more recently, the COVID-19 pandemic." So 107+ years and counting is a "brief period"? Clarityfiend (talk) 05:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, in Jehovah's Witnesses chronology, August 1914 apparently follows October. Clarityfiend (talk) 06:47, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Compared to the thousand-year reign of Christ promised in Revelation 20:4–6 (see also Millennialism), it is still relatively short, but that angel from heaven (Revelation 20:1–3) had better hurry up casting Satan into the bottomless pit, and shutting him up, and setting a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled. --Lambiam 09:24, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Let's not forget all the times he killed Kenny, the bastard! Clarityfiend (talk) 20:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

96.250.241.6 -- The apocalyptic prophecy was originally made before 1914 (before WW1 was known about), based on calculations of numbers from the Book of Daniel and/or pyramidology. The outbreak of WW1 was seized upon as a post facto justification for the prophecy. See also When Prophecy Fails... AnonMoos (talk) 07:21, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Specifically, the 1914 prediction was made in The Time is at Hand written by Charles Taze Russell in 1889, the second volume of a work that would later be called Studies in the Scriptures. In it, he claimed that it was "an established truth that the final end of the kingdoms of this world, and the full establishment of the Kingdom of God, will be accomplished at the end of A.D. 1914". When nothing happened, Russell said that the end would come in 1915 and later 1918. After Russell's death in 1916, editions of Studies were rewritten to suggest that 1914 was the beginning of the end rather than a final date, and that the Great War was a manifestation of that process. See Unfulfilled Watch Tower Society predictions. Alansplodge (talk) 11:54, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If he died in 1916, how did he predict anything in 1918? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:57, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

He said, before died, that the end of the world would be in 1918. He did not make the statement in 1918, he made the statement about 1918. --Jayron 32 17:38, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What term describes the idea that protests, riots, etc are always caused by outsiders?

It is commonly asserted, when something like a riot or protest occurs, that most of the participants are outsiders who came from elsewhere (usually a big city within driving distance), and that they drove in just to make trouble in a peaceful community. The idea is that "our people don't do this kind of thing." This idea has been used to delegitimize protests like the George Floyd Protests. A related idea is that organizations and popular movements are actually spearheaded by foreign actors, for instance during the 1950s and 60s there were claims that African-American rights groups in the American South were front groups organized by the Soviets. I'm almost positive that there's an article on Wikipedia about this concept, but I can't remember the name of it, and my search efforts have turned up nothing. I am not looking for the concept of agent provocateur. What I'm looking for is the popular notion that protests/movements/disturbances are always caused by sinister outsiders, rather than members of one's own community who might have a grievance. Lantzy : Lantzy 01:31, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, of course it's a manifestation of xenophobia. But that's not very specific. --184.145.50.17 (talk) 04:23, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Outside agitators is the term I remember from the late 1960s. I first attended a protest event a couple of days after Martin Luther King Jr. was assassinated a couple of weeks after I turned 16 and got a driver's license. Sadly, that article is poorly developed but I am confident that some ambitious editor would easily be able to expand and improve it. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

A Google Books search shows that the term "outside agitator" goes back about 100 years, and was used back then mostly in connection with the labor union movement, but by the mid 1960s, it was applied mostly to the civil rights movement. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 04:42, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Outside agitators is definitely the article I'm thinking of, although I remembered it being a much more detailed and lengthy article. Thanks! Lantzy : Lantzy 18:19, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

One darkly humorous example is when Byron De La Beckwith murdered Medgar Evers, the local paper's headline read "Californian is charged with murder of Evers". Never mind that he had moved to Mississippi with family when he was like 6 years old. But the Jackson newspaper wanted to deflect some of the blame. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:39, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"This idea has been used to delegitimize protests like the George Floyd Protests." Is that accurate? My impression was that the people trying to delegitimize them were the ones saying "You rioted, therefore you are bad and should be ignored", while its the defenders of the protests that were saying "That wasn't us, we were just protesting, it was outsiders that were rioting". Iapetus (talk) 09:56, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I don't doubt that people were saying that. There were a lot of different responses to the protests, and counter-responses to the responses. But I distinctly remember a lot of talk about "Chicagoans driving up and making trouble in Minneapolis", so this trope was definitely invoked. Lantzy : Lantzy 18:19, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The term rent-a-mob is often used in the UK to describe people who are allegedly paid to boost the numbers and cause trouble at demonstrations etc. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 21:24, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Employees: Working for employer's subsidiary, or working for employer's parent?

Let's say there is a parent company X Ltd, and it has a subsidiary Y Ltd. One of these companies hires a member of staff to do work for both legal entities, supporting entity Y's work more, but of course Y is a subsidiary of X so it benefits X too. The question is, which company is most likely to make the hire.

As in, is it more likely that X makes the hire and uses it's employee to help it's asset, Y Ltd, because benefitting its asset clearly benefits itself too. Or is it more likely that Y makes the hire and uses its employee to help the parent because the parent is the ultimate beneficiary and has ultimate control.

Ideally I'm looking for sources that say either what is normally done or what is the logical thing to do. Personally, I've worked in both scenarios, so maybe it doesn't matter but I feel like surely one must be the normal or right thing to do. And if it matters, the geography ideally is the UK. And it doesn't matter to me if these are tiny companies or massive companies. Thanks for your wisdom / better google skills than I have 2A00:23C8:4384:F00:10CD:3054:C356:D337 (talk) 10:12, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I assume the new hire will have a supervisor. If that supervisor is an employee of X, it is more reasonable if X makes the hire, but if they are employed by Y, Y should make the hire. At least, I think that approach is the less likely to create issues. --Lambiam 00:24, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Child of God

In olden times, if a child was a "child of God" did that mean the child was set aside for human sacrifice to the god?Rich (talk) 11:09, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Some assistance with a time period and/or geography would help, as I'd imagine there may be differences between cultures. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 11:42, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Our human sacrifice article explains that the idea went out of favour very early on in most places except the Americas. Julius Caesar claims that we Britons were into that sort of thing before he arrived, but we only have his word for it. Alansplodge (talk) 23:47, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Americas is not comparable to the Old World during pre-Columbian times in regards to timelines; it is called the "New World" for more reasons than just being "new" to the Europeans. Humans have not been in the New World for as long as they have been in the Old. Civilisation happened at a later time in the New World than it did in the Old World. When the Europeans discovered the New World at the beginning of what we call the "Modern Period", the civilisations of the New World were a development level that was about equivalent of the Old World Neolithic, or "New Stone Age". So it's not really fair to treat the Americas as being the exception for human sacrifice not falling out of favour like it did by the Iron Age in the Old World; the Americas never got a chance to reach their own Bronze or Iron Ages, and "Stone Age" is not even used at all for New World archaeology for that reason, it would be superfluous. 2600:1702:4960:1DE0:5010:5C21:EA43:B649 (talk) — Preceding undated comment added 22:31, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Point taken, but no censure was intended, merely pointing out the fact. Alansplodge (talk) 11:27, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've always understood it in the following context. https://www.chapelhillkids.org/post/child-like-faith 41.165.67.114 (talk) 07:00, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The normal meaning of this phrase refers to our relationship with God [11]. 2A00:23C4:7996:B900:2404:59F7:FAC5:EFB2 (talk) 08:42, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Instead of us speculating about what you mean, Richard L. Peterson, could you tell us more specifically what you are asking about? --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 11:48, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

If you'll drop the sarcasm, Dweller, I'll tell you more about what i mean.I heard a christian friend talk about being a child of God, and the friend clearly thought of that as a good thing. Somewhere else I read or heard of some children in ancient Canaan as being "set aside for god" or words roughly to that effect, meaning that they were to either be sacrificed or at least passed thru flames(not sure if the passing through flames was to be fatal or painful or just ceremonial). Child of god and set aside for god are different phrases, and they have been translated, but I still wonder if they mean the same thing, set aside for a sacrifice to a god. My thinking about it was stimulated by reading that Jeremiah protested that God abhorred child sacrifice.Rich (talk) 03:03, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for any offence given - I didn't intend to be sarcastic, I was just baffled. I think you might be referring to Moloch#Masoretic_text. I've personally never heard that referred to as a "child of God" though. But you're right, several prophets rail against human sacrifice, whether Moloch was or wasn't a child sacrifice cult. --Dweller (talk) Old fashioned is the new thing! 09:33, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry Dweller, I clearly took that in the wrong spirit. Thanks for your answer.Rich (talk) 23:39, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Idiomatic translation from German to English

Hi Folks!!, could somebody please translate this from German to English. Thanks.

„Wir müssen endlich Schluß machen mit dem alten deutschen Irrglauben, der Staat sei ein höheres Wesen, dem man sich blind anvertrauen dürfe.“

„Die Wahrheit über die wirkliche Lage muß ins Volk dringen […] Wir fordern die Wiederherstellung der Überzeugungsfreiheit. Ein Volksgericht für diejenigen, die uns in den Wahnsinn des Rußlandfeldzuges und damit des Zweifrontenkrieges gehetzt haben…Wendet euch gegen die Fortsetzung eines Krieges, der im besten Falle nicht Deutschland allein, sondern den ganzen Kontinent zum Trümmerfeld macht.“

„Morgen gehört uns Deutschland!“

scope_creep^Talk 16:52, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

"We must finally put an end to the old German fallacy of thinking that the state is some higher being that you could trust blindly."
"The truth about the true situation needs to get through to the people […] We demand the restitution of the freedom of opinion. A people's tribunal for those who incited us into the madness of the Russian war and the two-front war […] stand up against the continuation of a war that will, even in the best case, turn not just Germany but the whole continent into ruins."
"Tomorrow, Germany will be ours."

Fut.Perf. ☼ 19:51, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks @Future Perfect at Sunrise: scope_creep^Talk 21:12, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Trepper kehrte im Januar 1945 nach Moskau zurück, wurde sofort verhaftet und für zehn Jahre in der Lubjanka inhaftiert.[36] Nach seiner Freilassung schrieb er einen ausführlichen Bericht über seine Tätigkeit während des Krieges. Darin erklärte er:[37]

„Tatsächlich trägt die Verantwortung für die Liquidierung der Berliner Gruppe die Direktion des militärischen Nachrichtendienstes in Moskau und das Zentralkomitee der illegalen Kommunistischen Partei Deutschlands.“ @Future Perfect at Sunrise:

Can you do an idiomatic translation of this please. scope_creep^Talk 21:13, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Trepper returned in January 1945 to Moscow, was immediately arrested and held for ten years in Lubyanka.[36] After his release he wrote an extensive report on his actions during the war. In it, he declared:[37]

"The actual responsibility for the liquidation of the Berlin group rests with the management of the military intelligence agency in Moscow and the Central Committee of the illegal Communist Party of Germany."

--Lambiam 00:15, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

November 2

Reliable sources needed - Queen & Pagliacci

I need reliable sources for the connexion between Queen's The Show Must Go On and Ruggero Leoncavallo's Pagliacci. The idea that the show must go on is of course intimately connected with Vesti la giubba from Pag, and Queen previously made use of both the idea and the melody in It's a Hard Life. If anyone could provide what Wikipedia calls "reliable sources" for what is, as Fawlty would say, the bleeding obvious, I would be grateful. DuncanHill (talk) 01:02, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How's your Italian? This seems pertinent. Alansplodge (talk) 11:27, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Or in English, Queen FAQ: All That's Left to Know About Britain's Most Eccentric Band (p. 270). Alansplodge (talk) 12:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

How could I find info on American state law?

I'm working on the article on Dining and dashing, and I'm looking for resources to see Mississippi's law on Dining & Dashing. How would I be able to do that? Explodicator7331 (talk) 13:54, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Try www.findlaw.com. Alansplodge (talk) 14:32, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! I'll add this to the article now! Explodicator7331 (talk) 14:40, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

MS §75-73-9 - Obtaining board and lodging with intent to defraud
MS §1-3-11. Felony
Coleman, Leigh (March 2, 2011). "Dine-and-dash accusation against actor Gary Collins dismissed". Reuters.

Names of impeachment trials

Are federal impeachment trials in the United States given names like United States v. [name of individual being tried]? If not, do the trials have official names at all? --Puzzledvegetable^{Is it teatime already?} 15:31, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, such trials are not typically given in the "v." formatting. They are simply called "the impeachment trial of X". These are not judicial trials in the normal sense we think of them, they are trials that occur in the legislature, and they follow their own peculiar (and often in each example, entirely sui generis) sets of rules and procedures. For example, I can find no references to "United States v. Clinton" that refer to the Impeachment trial of Bill Clinton, as you can see here, the only "United States v. Clinton" case that exists appears to be an unrelated case about a drug charge brought against one Johnny Clinton, and has nothing to do with the impeachment. There was a United States v. Nixon, but that was regarding executive privilege during the investigation phase, and not the actual impeachment trial (of which there was none, as Nixon resigned beforehand). --Jayron 32 17:35, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

November 3

Did any "hybrid borders" survive?

Where a river, watershed or other natural feature is displaced x degrees or x miles towards [direction] so it's based on nature and artificial at the same time? Like the defunct border idea for Pennsylvania (Delaware River-shaped on both sides) Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:57, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The boundaries of territorial seas are commonly of this type: a certain distance beyond the coastline.

You say "did any survive", but did such a border ever exist on land? You have only mentioned a proposed boundary, and that without a cite.

--184.145.50.17 (talk) 05:17, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Yohogania County, Virginia#Conflicting claims Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 05:49, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The border between the Netherlands and Germany between the towns of (roughly) Roermond and Cuijk was defined at the Congress of Vienna (1814–1815) as being at least one cannon shot (about 3km) east of the river Maas, farther where the Netherlands already had more land on the east. This to prevent Prussia from firing cannonballs on the river, which would block shipping. And that was also convenient as the Maas functioned as the advanced defence line of the Netherlands until WW2, but by that time cannons could shoot quite a bit farther. That border still survives. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:32, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Similarly, the border of Gambia was defined as being 10km from the Gambia River. I think that by 1889 cannons could shoot a bit farther than that, but it's a nice round number. PiusImpavidus (talk) 09:32, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, the standard British field gun of that time had a range of 3.2km, so they were being generous. Alansplodge (talk) 11:21, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Orange River is still part of the border between South Africa and Namibia. See also Lake Constance, the Croatia–Serbia border dispute and List of territorial disputes for more where rivers or lakes are borders. Nanonic (talk) 10:35, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Much of the borders of the U.S. States along the Mississippi and Missouri rivers (among others) are based on former channels of the river; in places where the river's course has changed, the current border no longer follows the river, but cuts semi-randomly across various patches of land. In some places, like Kaskaskia, Illinois, and Carter Lake, Iowa, this has led to entire cities being located "on the wrong side" of the river. You can find many more examples which are less consequential, often involving otherwise marginally inhabited patches of land, along the border between Arkansas and Tennessee. There is also the curious case of the Kentucky Bend. A different situation, which may be closer to what you're proposing, is the Northern boundary of Massachusetts as defined east of the "Old Boundary Pine", which followed the course of the Merrimack River, but not in the river, rather a line surveyed three miles north of it. The border itself is actually a series of line segments, plotted out to roughly match the course of the river, though at that 3 mile distance. --Jayron 32 12:43, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Kay Stewart, poster artist

Kay Stewart (d:Q109375681) produced posters for a number of British travel and transport companies, between (at least) 1924 and 1960. Some are in the UK's National Railway Museum. There seems to be no other biographical information readily available. Can we find her(?) dates, and usual details (with sources, please)? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 12:59, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Talk radio replacing music radio lately??

For the past 10 years I've picked up evidence that music radio is becoming less and less common in the United States and talk radio is replacing it. (This means any radio format that's not music; this includes news/talk and sports/talk.) Any reason?? Georgia guy (talk) 23:57, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

WGN radio Chicago, for example, has been mostly talk since at least the 1960s. In general, talk radio is probably cheaper to produce and possibly has higher ratings. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:13, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also, radio is no longer the go-to medium for music, (presumably, live talk radio is generally still somewhat relevant). E.g:: "Radio Is Dead In 10 Years. This Study Proves It". Digital Music News. 31 August 2017. -- 107.15.157.44 (talk) 04:50, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Georgia guy:: You've made th eassertion that "music radio is becoming less and less common in the United States and talk radio is replacing it", but have provided no evidence that such a statement is true. We can't answer why it is true unless we actually know that it is true. Can you provide some evidence of the replacement of music radio by talk radio? I'd like to read where you got these statistics from so I can provide an informed answer to your question. --Jayron 32 15:45, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Jayron32, I learned about it at a recent edit at WSTR (FM). Georgia guy (talk) 15:54, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. This talks about one station that broadcast a football game one time. It also contains speculation that I don't know where it came from, and doesn't say anything about the radio industry at large, just that one music station broadcast one sports event one time. Do you have any information to support your general statement that radio as a whole is replacing music stations with talk radio? Also, FWIW, I have undone that edit as it was entirely unreferenced, and per WP:V, statements in Wikipedia need to be verifiable. --Jayron 32 15:57, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Understanding the Rise of Talk Radio (2011) says: " We argue that this remarkable growth [in talk radio] is better explained by the collision of two changes that have transformed the radio business: deregulation and the mainstreaming of digital music technologies".

Researching the Public Opinion Environment: Theories and Methods (2000) p. 23 says: "The number of talk radio stations increased from 200 in 1988 to more than 1,000 in 1998".

Both of these sources suggest a longer time-frame than the decade suggested by the OP.

Alansplodge (talk) 17:00, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

November 4

Mosques where worshippers keep their shoes

Hi,

In Agent Storm: My Life Inside al-Qaeda about a place in Dammaj: "The mosque was the only one in the Muslim world in which students were required to keep their shoes on. A hadith viewed as authoritative by Sheikh Muqbil stated the Prophet had prayed in this way": are there other sources about this?

Thanks. Apokrif (talk) 06:47, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

This appears to be the text of the Hadith by Muqbil. --Jayron 32 12:43, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

nh senate

when is the filling deadline for the 2022 senate election in new hampshire Cookiemonstericecream (talk) 23:00, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't read very carefully, but...

Open: June 1 -- Close: June 10 (between the first Wednesday in June and the Friday of the following week)

"2022 State Primary Election Dates and Filing Deadlines". www.ncsl.org. --107.15.157.44 (talk) 02:53, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 409: / Line 409: @@
 when is the filling deadline for the 2022 senate election in new hampshire [[User:Cookiemonstericecream|Cookiemonstericecream]] ([[User talk:Cookiemonstericecream|talk]]) 23:00, 4 November 2021 (UTC)
+:I haven't read very carefully, but...
+:{{tq|Open: June 1 -- Close: June 10 (between the first Wednesday in June and the Friday of the following week)}}
+:*{{cite web |title=2022 State Primary Election Dates and Filing Deadlines |url=https://www.ncsl.org/research/elections-and-campaigns/2022-state-primary-election-dates-and-filing-deadlines.aspx |website=www.ncsl.org}} --[[Special:Contributions/107.15.157.44|107.15.157.44]] ([[User talk:107.15.157.44|talk]]) 02:53, 5 November 2021 (UTC)