Wikipedia:Village pump (policy)

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Question: Merged Pages

Ok, I'm not exactly sure where to put this, but I think this is the right place to ask this.

I am wondering something about Wikipedia's policies. Why is it Wikipedia's Policy to merge separate articles. The cases I'm thinking about specificlly, are character pages. For example, Midna from The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess originally had her own article. It was then merged into the List of characters in The Legend of Zelda: Twilight Princess article.

My question is, shouldn't every separate idea, in this case, Video Game characters, have their own article?

I think each having a separate article adds to the overall detail of Wikipedia.

--Mooshykris 19:52, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Because some articles are not notable, do not have enough verifiable sources, or fit better under the scope of a larger topic. Furthermore, Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminate information. Sephiroth BCR (Converse) 19:56, 4 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, to add comprehensiveness and context. If every VG character had a separate article, many of those would be very short, and either lacking in explanation for what they're about, or redundant in this explanation with related articles. Hence, lists. Works for TV characters, too. Relevant guidelines include WP:FICT. >Radiant< 13:01, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

• When WP:FICT undergoes a rewrite (that will hopefully gain consensus), it will ultimately take this concept further. Junkyard lists are, after all, a temporary solution, and it's coming to a point where either those lists are turned into general articles about the cast of characters/world/whatever (by attaining an out-of-universe perspective). If that is impossible, they will be transwikied or (as a last resort) deleted. I'm looking forward to presenting the draft in the coming weeks, but for now, it's a matter of finding time to polish my ramblings :) — Deckiller 20:09, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Conflict between WP:FUC and WP:FURG

As I already mentioned 2 days ago on the village pump (misc), the guidelines at WP:FUC and WP:FURG don't have the same standards for fair use rationales.

WP:FURG only asks for purpose, portion and replacability

By the way: the last requirement Any other information necessary to assist future Wikipedians in determining whether this image qualifies for fair use is just plain stupid. Why not just write "A fair use rationale has to comply with WP-policy" then.

WP:FUC requires much more, incl. a rationale for why there is no free version (which is totally obvious in most cases), minimal use, previous publication and significance (although there seem to be various interpretations of the last one).

FUC 6 is only a link to other guidelines and essays, including one to meta:Avoid copyright paranoia which includes this great statement:

• "As a practicing lawyer, I hate all the incredibly over-the-top "copyright paranoia" as you've so elloquently put it. I've taken copyrights, I've taken trademarks, I've taken international IP (so a bit of patents ;-) ) all while a law student. Infringing uses are easy to see and easy to remove on Wikipedia --yet people here get caught in such absurd legal minutia, seriously compounded by their often half-baked legal knowledge, that has such a small likelihood of becoming a problem. And what's the biggest joke of it "becoming a problem"? Simple: any of us can "erase" the problem material in a few keystrokes. Honestly people, to quote a famous decision in copyright law "the parties are advised to chill." Mattel, Inc. v. MCA Records, Inc., 296 F.3d 894, 908 (9th Cir. 2002). --Bobak 19:52, 3 October 2006 (UTC)"

What's even more confusing is that Betacommandbot's example of a good fair use rationale ([1])is absolutely generic, while User:Durin, who seems to be the defender-in-chief for Betacommandbot, constantly argues that FURs have to be unique to each specific use in each specific article they're used in.

As long as the policy isn't clear, what's the use in tagging thousands of images.

Malc82 09:44, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The same as it always is; reduce the amount of copyrighted material on Wikipedia; further erode fair use rights; prepare Wikipedia for a "German-style" fair-use free future. There are some who claim it's all part of a major scheme to put billions of dollars (Google-sized bucks!) in the pockets of the foundation and Jimbo; I won't go that far, but I can see how some would believe this. Some Wikipedians seem quite excited to act on their evangelism for free/libre content, ignoring the inconvenient truth that the fair use of copyrighted material is still allowed on Wikipedia. Jenolen ^{speak it!} 09:52, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

And the sad part is, it's happening AGAIN. Betacommand has been down this road before - it's what cost him his admin status. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Betacommand#Automated_image_deletion for a prior round of mass image deletions, for which his was temporarily blocked. When was unblocked, User:Geni said, "I don't think he's going to be doing that again." Guess what? He's doing it again. (There's more good historical reading at Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Betacommand#The_image_deletions_were_conducted_inappropriately and so on ... Eventually, his admin tools were stripped, but not, apparently, his desire to "purify" the Wiki-image world. Jenolen ^{speak it!} 09:57, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Wow, just read through Betacommand's RfA (took some time). Incredible how someone with such a record of bot-abuse and antisocial behavior can get his bot approved in the first place. Malc82 10:43, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

No what cost him his admin status was running a bot under his own account. This one is approved. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 11:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

That really understates the "why." Betacommand lost his admin status for these reasons:

1. A poorly run automated image deletion
2. An image deletion campaign that ran counter to policy (sound familiar yet?)
3. Unsatisfactory communication regarding image deletions
4. Inappropriate username blocks
5. Unsatisfactory communication regarding username blocks
6. Use of an automated tool to disrupt Wikipedia:Requests for comment/User names
7. Disruption of WP:AIV
8. High-speed removal of external links
9. Inappropriate link removals
10. The link removal was conducted inappropriately
11. Unsatisfactory communication regarding link removals
12. History of inappropriate blocks
13. History of poor judgment

That's not just "running a bot under his own name". And it's ridiculous that THIS is the person running a large-scale image tagging and removal campaign, when he/she has shown before, he/she can't handle it. Jenolen ^{speak it!} 16:30, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, WP:FUC is policy, while WP:FURG is a guideline. The guideline needs to fit the policy. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 11:10, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I just wanted to make precisely this remark. If a guideline violates a policy, there is no "conflict", it just means that the guideline is probably wrong and needs {{sofixit}}. Kusma (talk) 11:12, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Then why does Betacommandbot link to a guideline that differs from the policy? This means that thousands of Wikipedians are asked to write a FUR that still violates the policy, meaning the next round will be that the bot contacts all of them again and asks for a better rationale. Do you see how stupid that is? Malc82 11:16, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I only got four warnings, but just look at [2] and you will see why this is disastrous. Malc82 11:22, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't quite see why you point me to the talk page of this user who has been indefinitely blocked for copyright violations. While this user can't review the images, others can, as the bot also leaves notes on the talk pages of articles using the disputed images. Kusma (talk) 11:27, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The bot's edit summary links to WP:NONFREE, a page that transcludes Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria. Kusma (talk) 11:24, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

The first paragraph of the bot's user talk message (as of minutes ago) is:

• Thanks for uploading or contributing to Image name. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in Wikipedia articles constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use. Suggestions on how to do so can be found here.

there are two links to WP:FURG, specifically linking to "suggestions on how to do so". Malc82 11:33, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

From what I can see here, Betacommand is doing nothing wrong. He was desysopped primarily for running a bot on his admin account and failing to respond to concerns related to the trouble it caused. He shouldn't have done that, and I can't argue with the decision to desysop for it. However, this time, he has been careful to act within both policy and norms (CSD I6 is policy, it's actually not required that one notify the uploader or leave a message on the article talk for that, but it is considered polite, and he has done both of those things), and he is performing the bot actions with a flagged and approved bot. The editors who have violated policy are those who have uploaded and used fair-use images without providing proper rationales, not Betacommand for bringing that to their attention. Seraphimblade ^{Talk to me} 17:07, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have to agree with Eagle101 and Kusma, copyright is non-negotiable. Where it is stated in policy that a fair use rationale must be included according to Wikipedia:Non-free content criteria policy, and the consequences of violating this policy could result in deletion of images, sanctions if repeatedly violated by a user or worse if a copyright problem occurs, then the Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline should not be a standard that everyone should follow, as a guideline is defined, but it should be a policy that everyone must follow. As well, should WP:FURG become policy, the file upload wizard for fair use images should be changed to allow the input (maybe even insist on a licence, source and fair use rationale before an image can be uploaded under fair use?) of a fair use rationale, alongside the source text box and licensing drop down box. --tgheretford (talk) 17:56, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

I have no problem with copyright LAW. Where an identified LEGAL infringement is identified by a human user of Wikipedia, then I am 100% behind that user.

Obviously, there is a perceived problem with this indiscrimate and random bot (our friend Betacommandbot), and I personally feel that one major problem is its indiscriminate and apparently random nature.

If you give me, as an occasional Wikipedia uploader over the years, the chance to respond to ANY accusation of an invalid copyrighted upload, then I can FOR SURE answer you.

But if you give me 2-7 days only to respond, then there is no way I can guarantee a response 365-days-a-year, 24-hours-a-day - I am one of those humans who sadly has a non-Wikipedia/Internet-based life. However, since Wikipedia is (I understand) populated by human beings with a propensity to discuss any issues intelligently in lieu of idiotic knee-jerk reactions, I wouldn't imagine this could ever be a problem, and I therefore feel I am among understanding friends.

Well...

Not unless bots are introduced arbitrarily to make such apparently obvious complex and human decisions - and to make them, no less, in such totally arbitrary and unintelligent ways as regards time or context ("bot detects a bunch of text in the right place or not" appears to be the "intelligent" programming on display here).

The laughable situation seems to be this - if WP editors enter random licensing text such as "this is random licensing text to fool idiot bots", then the troublesome bot will almost certainly leave them alone.

Such is its intelligence.

Such is its value to Wikipedia.

Has it a value to Wikipedia then?

My answer would be: "absolutely not".

Note I do not dispute for one moment any "Wikipedia policies" - that is NOT the issue here.

And apologies in advance for any perceived cynicism.

Regards. --DaveG12345 01:21, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

This section was about the fact that WP:FURG, which is the guideline stating how to write FURs, didn't comply with WP:FUC, the policy. This problem has been more or less solved in the meantime (by addition of one sentence linking from FURG to FUC). That FURs are needed if the policy states so wasn't the question brought up here (although it's a good one). To which extent FURs are needed is a different debate at WP:FUC. If the bot is achieving what it is meant for in a constructive way is another ongoing debate, mainly at its talk page. Malc82 08:56, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Please note that Betacommandbot only tags images, it's still up to a human being to actually do the deleting. If you have a problem with the actual deletion, take it up with the admin who did the deleting. Corvus cornix 21:24, 7 June 2007 (UTC)

Please note that without BetacommandBot tagging, massive out-of-policy image deletetions wouldn't be happening. Or happening again. Make no mistake: BetcommandBot makes these deletions possible. Jenolen ^{speak it!} 04:16, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok Jenolen, before you make an ass of yourself read what your linking to. the ArbCom issue was a mistake that I made I wasnt careful and made a rookie admin mistake. Ive been through this before. DONT bring the arbcom case into this as it has NO wait in this case, its a blatant attempt to make me look like a stupid user. well Im following policy to the letter. the policy points to FURG on how to write a rationale. and as for Naconkantari's deletions, if you actually read the discussion instead of just pointing to it you would know that the admin made a mistake due to a recent change in the wording of the template. so instead of character assassination why not help improve the wiki? yes FURG had some errors but its being fixed. If you think Im the only thing making it possible you might see WP:CSD#I6 and WP:CSD#I7 which is policy. and has been used for a very long time. Betacommand ^{(talk • contribs • Bot)} 04:33, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

OK Betacommand, would you like to explain why you had to write "make an ass of yourself" over less offensive wordings like "make a fool of yourself" or "say something you might later regret"? Or do you honestly not care that you annoy or offend countless people with not only your actions but your language? I can think of several people who could run the exact same bot, tag the exact same images -- yet stir up far less trouble because they attempt not only to talk to their critics, but do so with repsect. -- llywrch 03:27, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Betacommand is right, those Arbitration findings have absolutely nothing to do with what is going on now. Betacommand is merely enforcing long-standing policy via an approved bot. If you have issues with what's happening, you should fix the policies and guidelines involved, not try to stop Betacommand from enforcing them. These images have been around for years violating the policy. As they say, don't shoot the messenger. ^demon^{[omg plz]} 04:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Feel free to correct my basic understanding of these instances: In both cases, yours and Naconkantari's, there was a massive, out-of-policy deletion of images that had been tagged by a robot as not conforming to Wikipedia policies. (From the arbcom ruling, passed 9-0: Betacommand's image deletions were conducted inappropriately and showed poor judgment because he used an inappropriate methodology of deleting all images tagged for speedy delete, with no regard for {{Replaceable fair use disputed}} tags or talk page disputes concerning whether fair use deletion criteria applied.)

The key factor: In both cases, there was no HUMAN determination as to whether or not the images actually conformed to policy. And in your instance, you keep saying "Yes, I made a rookie mistake." (And in the other, you say Naconkantari made a mistake.) Uh, yes, you did! It's okay; thanks for fessing up to it. But I think it's important for people to realize that thousands of images were wiped out, wrongly. The encyclopedia is that much poorer... wrongly. And when the BetacommandBot tags thousands of images, and another editor then deletes those images, it's more than just a minor "whoops." I'm well aware you believe you are "following policy to the letter." You might perhaps be better served understanding policy, or working on understanding the reasons for policy; it's obvious that your enthusiastic enforcement actions have been the source of trouble for you on Wikipedia before. And while there must be those who admire your moxie and determination to keep doing what you think is right, I think there's a sizable (and growing) contingent who think you've definitely gone too far. I have yet to see a single post from you (and I'm sure they're out there, somewhere) that is anything but combative, or genuinely tries to build consensus. You have yet, to my knowledge, said anything like, "You know what, maybe I did go too far"... But of course, you don't think you have, and so, not unlike a certain President's dedication to courses of action, facts be damned, you push ahead. Great. More power to you. The more your 'bot deletes (or helps delete), the more editors realize that not only is your interpretation of policy not the proper direction for the project, but your 'bot is actually doing more harm than good. Jenolen ^{speak it!} 05:24, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Ok per m:Wikimedia Foundation policy users who upload copyrighted material must provide Rationales. also per a foundation resolution we must be 100% compliant by April, 2008. at current estimates there are 350,000 fair use images. Of the 350,000 ~30,000 have zero rationale. and an additional ~70,000 have improper rationale, that can be bot detected. that means that at least 30% of our current images dont comply with policy. Im guessing an additional 50,000 images have improper rationales that cannot be detected by a bot. My actions are not pro-deletionist, the issue is we have a massive problem that users ignore. the small group of user who attempt to correct this problem cannot do it by them self. If we ignore all future non free image uploads we have to review, and fix 556 images per day from now until April, 2008. that would be ignoring a total of at least 81,000 images. we need to motivate users into fixing their improper images. we cannot do that unless the whole community joins in. what BetacommandBot does is far more than what editors would do. It notifies all the users in the images file history, and leaves a note on all the talkpages of articles where images are used. My only objective is to fix images that don't comply with policy. We either have to fix, or if no one is willing to do that delete them. as for going to far, I haven't gone far enough yet. we have a problem that needs fixed. I have yet to see anyone propose an idea that is feasible, and could be implemented except for mine. Instead of complaining about Foundation resolutions, and character assassinations, why not help fix the problem? as for deletions, they are the responsibility of the person who deletes them, not the person who nominates them for deletion. Betacommand ^{(talk • contribs • Bot)} 15:29, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

But what you're doing is annoying. I mean, a lot of the stuff you're tagging is blatantly fair use, and should not be deleted. If you really want to have every single image on wikipedia say "this is fair use because it's not prohibiting the original creator's ability to make money" instead of just implying that it's fair use for said reason, then whatever. But you shouldn't delete images which are ALREADY confirmed to be fair use just because they don't have an elaborate reason.J'onn J'onzz 12:12, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Background

For those who might be interested, a very short "history" on FUR and FURG: WT:FURG#A little history on FURG. -- Ned Scott 05:28, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Experts

The Sunday Times has criticised Wilkipedia for accepting articles from non-experts. Non-experts are sometimes right, but not always. Experts are sometimes wrong. We are grown-up, so we should be allowed to choose what to believe. Heaven help us from infomation censorship by experts or anybody else.

OK. --Golbez 15:23, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Quite ironic being criticised by a newspaper considering some of the rubbish written by journalists about subjects they're not expert in! I've seen a lot of utterly incorrect "information" presented as fact in highly respected media sources. -- Necrothesp 15:26, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The Sunday Times are clearly accepting articles from non-experts as well. Clearly they have no idea of the core principles of WP:V and WP:OR. ŞůṜīΣĻ¹98¹^Speak 17:37, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Many tabloids these days post speculative stuff all the time just to draw circulation and profits. A violation of WP:CRYSTAL indeed. Ho ho.--Kylohk 18:21, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

I would like to criticise The Sunday Times for using newsprint. LessHeard vanU 19:44, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

What Wikipedia is not - schedules and programme lists discussion

A discussion as to whether all schedules and programme lists for channels, along with a proposal for a change in What Wikipedia is not policy is being discussed at Wikipedia talk:What Wikipedia is not#Schedules & program lists. --tgheretford (talk) 16:34, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

As per consensus, section 1.7.3 has been changed and updated to meet consensus on the talk page. --tgheretford (talk) 11:29, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

'Jewish persona' articles

(firstly, sorry my english is not good enough)

I often read articles about Jewish people from differrnt countries. However, the fact they are Jewish is never mentioned absolutely. First of all it isn't written in the opening paragraph only in "Early life" or "History". But, even in these paragraphes the fact is not cleared, for example (Albert Einstein):"Albert Einstein was born into a Jewish family in Ulm, Württemberg, Germany..." The fact he was born to a jewish family doesn't necessarily mean he is Jewish; it should be like "albert Einstain is Jewish-German-American". Secondly, Judaism (not as Christianity or Islam) is not only a religion but it is also tradition, culture, nationality and race. Therfore it is that important to write it in the opening paragraph clearly in addition to writing other origin/nationality.

GOER 17:39, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

The German Wikipedia specifically mentions that while Einstein supported some Zionist goals, his relationship to Judaism was never of religious nature (being a staunch believer in the Old testament would be a little odd for a foremost expert on physical cosmology anyway). If it wasn't a central part of what he is notable for, then it shouldn't be in the intro. Malc82 17:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Einstein was just an example. you can see it in many other articles. However, I didn't talk only about religion. A lot of Jews are not religious but they are part of jewish culture, nationality... GOER 17:54, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that's why it is mentioned in the text. But unless they are notable for being Jewish, it shouldn't be mentioned in the intro. If we did that every biography article would have to point out the religious and socio-economic background of its subject in the intro, which would also provoke unnumbered heated debates as to "How Catholic was JFK really" and so on. Malc82 18:34, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll try to explain it again... Judaism not as Catholic Christianity is not only religion, this is the difference. there is the "Jewish people", Zionism, Jewish culture... the religion marginal in this case. GOER 18:48, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, in my opinion there is no need to outline someone's Jewish roots in every lead of biographies. BTW, who is a Jew? Additionally, no cabal is supposed to be here :) --Brand спойт 19:03, 10 June 2007 (UTC)

race? oh my...--Svetovid 00:54, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

What religion isn't a tradition and part of a culture? The key is self identification. Too many Wikipedians are in a hurry to label subjects of biographies, either to stigmatize or claim ownership in a group. But our first responsibility is to understand people as they understand themselves. "Born to a jewish family" is a fact that can be established without overstepping that boundary. To label someone "Jewish" or "Christian" or "liberal" or "conservative" or "Marxist" requires a reliable source, preferably one that shows the subject personally identifies with the belief in question, and the baggage it entails. MoodyGroove 01:06, 11 June 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

If you write that he's french for example, you need to write that he's jewish either, because it is the same thing. He belongs to the Jewish people exactly as he belongs to the French people. GOER 08:49, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Not at all. Being 'French' is an objective thing. France is a distinct political entity; a person is born within its borders or a person is not. An individual holds French citizenship or an individual does not. You can argue as much or as little as you like about how much that person identifies with a particular nation, but the place that they were born and the original citizenship that they held can be determined objectively. There's no objective, universally-agreed-on definition for Jewish. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 15:14, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

And if someone borns to french parents in America? is he French? it is the same thing. GOER 21:13, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Being French is certainly subjective... I know of a man, who's Father was born in Paris... but only because his grand-parents were traveling there at the time of his birth... All involved, man, father and both grand-parents are US Citizens. Not only does the French Government consider the father a French Citizen (because he was born in France), they consider his son to be a French Citizen (because he father was French, you see.) Of course the US Government will say they are both Americans.

So are father and son French? They certainly think of themselves as Americans. But you could argue that Technically they are French, but that would not really be an accurate discription in the context of an article ... and certainly not in any potential article about the son, who does not speak the language, has never even set foot in France and in fact highly dislikes the French (he was one of those who liked to call french fries "Freedom Fries" a few years back).

In any "labeling" of a person, we should primarily use whatever label they self-identify as... and then only if that self-identity has a relevance to why we have an article on him or her. Getting back to the original question, as writers of an encyclopedia, we have to ask: Does the issue of someone's Jewishness play a part in what makes him or her noteworthy? For some subjects the answer will be "yes", but for others the answer will be "no"... Einstein is a good example of that. He is notable for his brilliant physics... not his Jewishness or lack of it. So there really isn't any reason to make a fuss over it in his article. I would even argue that it could be left out all together as being irrelevant. On the other hand, an article on comedian Jacky Mason should mention it prominently, as his Jewishness is a very large part of his humor... ie what makes him notable. Blueboar 22:30, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

It is not the same thing. It's not case of one person but a case of people. for 2000 years the jewish people has been scattered all over the world. If the they didn't keep their culture, tradition etc... in USA there is a big Jewish community (about 5 million). about einstein, he was associated with Zionism which associated with Jewish people...

you can't compare between being jewish to the 'french case' we mentioned before.. it is just not true. (& again.. sorry, my english is bad:P) [[User:GOER|GOER]] 20:26, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

The ambiguity of this is exactly the reason that self identification ought to be the gold standard. It's not for the Wikipedia to decide who people are by labeling them. One should tread carefully, because we have a responsibility to get it right. It would be unfortunate if someone read their own biography and felt that we misrepresented their beliefs, or implied something that wasn't strictly true. It shouldn't happen. MoodyGroove 21:04, 12 June 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

I have already writen it some times.. try to ignore the beliefs, we aren't talking here only about religion. There are a lot of things that affect jewsihness of someone. For example, in Einstein case, even though he wasn't religous he was associated with Zionism which associated strongly with someone's jewishness. Read the article you can see him with a kippa in synagogue, visiting Israel, he was proposed to be the president of Israel after Haim Weizmann and so on...

'Jewishness' was absolutely part of him. If some one does not deny his Jewishness I don't see any reason why not to write it. GOER 07:18, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I am speaking of the general case, and you are speaking of the specific case. As I said, the gold standard ought to be self identification. The next best thing is multiple reliable sources in those cases where the belief (or religion) is notable and important to the biography. I'm not an expert on Einstein, but if it's true that he was a practicing Jew with strong ties to Israel, it seems to me that the article should cover those facts. To me, that is more substantive, and more important, than the mere act of labeling him a Jew, which is sometimes abused on the Wikipedia in the form of yellow-badging. My point is that labels can be simplistic and imply baggage that may or may not exist in the subject's mind. So ask yourself this question: are you labeling someone for your own reasons, to push your own beliefs, or to make the article more accurate and informative, from a neutral point of view, with fairness of tone, and with a commitment to accuracy? I find it hard to believe that there aren't some very reliable sources available on someone as notable as Einstein, that discuss his Jewishness, and the extent to which it formed his identity. But giving carte blanche to label people Jewish in the lede, whether or not the person considers him or herself Jewish, and whether or not the person's Jewish is a notable part of the person's identity is not the answer. Again, we need to get it right. We have that responsibility to the subject of the biography. MoodyGroove 16:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

The first G-hit with the terms 'Einstein' and 'Jewish' is from the American Museum of Natural History. It reads in part:

As a young boy in Germany, Einstein was inspired to observe Jewish religious practices, but as he grew more fascinated by science, his interest in organized religion faded. Yet he retained a powerful sense of his Jewish identity. Einstein once referred to his relationship to the Jewish people as "his strongest human bond." In 1919, Einstein joined the Zionist movement and supported the establishment of a Jewish homeland in the Middle East. At the same time, he stressed the need for cooperation between Jews and Arabs.

However, the current section in the article that describes Einstein's religious views (which appears to be well sourced), tells me the question isn't settled, because it's not clear that Einstein believed in the God of the Bible. So for these types of situations, when it's important to discuss someone's relationship to Judaism (or any other -ism) why not go the extra mile and describe the relationship thoughtfully? In all its complexity? The question "What does it mean to be Jewish?" is philosophical, defies a simple answer, and Einstein was a complex man. Can a Jew reject the God of the Bible and still be a Jew? If there's a consensus about this point within Judaism, then it's reasonable to refer to Einstein as Jewish in the lede. MoodyGroove 22:36, 13 June 2007 (UTC)MoodyGroove

I don't believe in god... & I am still proud Jewish... I am zionist, Israeli.. but i'm not religous. Am I not Jewish? GOER 08:48, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The question of what should go in an article depends partially on its Wikipedia quality grade. Wikipedia's quality scale for biography articles is here. Any one editor can grade an article as Stub, Start, or B status (think development status). However, GA, A, or FA status (think refinement status) usually is determined through agreement between two or more editors. In particular, what goes in or remains out of GA, A, or FA articles is guided by predetermined criteria: Good Article (GA) criteria, A article criteria, and Featured Article (FA) criteria. Albert Einstein now is an A class article. Whether the Albert Einstein article should include a statement such as "Albert Einstein is Jewish-German-American" can be answered by reviewing the available Wikipedia reliable source material against the A article criteria. Not all facts or information about a person makes it into a GA, A, or FA article. However, if a statement such as "Albert Einstein is Jewish-German-American" meets A article criteria, then it should be added. As for articles falling in Stub, Start, or B status, they have less criteria than GA, A, or FA articles. Some of the information about Stub, Start, or B status is listed in the quality scale. A lot of it has to do with whether the information to be added is supported by a Wikipedia reliable source. Generally, whether a statement such as "xxxxxxx is Jewish-American" should go in a particular Stub, Start, or B status article can be answered by reviewing Wikipedia's five article standards. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 14:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Request for Comment regarding ALF, Alf, primary topic, and appropriate disambiguation standards

A WP:LAME edit war, in which I have gotten involved against my better judgment, raises some issues relevant to the intersection of disambiguation and some other policies. Your comments are welcome at Talk:ALF#Request for Comment regarding ALF, Alf, primary topic, and appropriate disambiguation standards.

WP:SPOILER

I have posted a message on the talk page of WP:SPOILER addressing the apparent lack of consensus and proposing the guideline be marked historical. Please join the discussion. Vassyana 19:42, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Macedonia guideline proposed

There is a proposed guideline for naming the Republic of Macedonia and Macedonia (Greece) at Wikipedia:Manual of Style (Macedonia-related articles). Please come, read, and comment; we would like to have a guideline. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 21:20, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Branching

Is there any polices against branching pages. A page thats branches off a user page, (Noit on it, it's it's own page, but it's just branching off another page.) Cuz i made two so far and is still making some. The pages are Which Wiki are you and The Daily Journal.

§→Nikro 23:39, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

This is covered at Wikipedia:Subpages. You might want to bear in mind that subpages can be made in any namespace apart from the article namespace. Tra (Talk) 23:48, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

Be wary of your journal getting MfD'd. –Pomte 20:23, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Main Page featured article protection

Recently there has been active debate and gradual changes of the policy, which now comes to a head as some editors argue the changes have been made without consensus, and that a survey of opinion has been biased and not representative of the community's true position on the matter. We need more people to take part in the discussion so that there can be no allegation of bias in the process, and hopefully achieve a consensus on the policy reasonably soon. Please visit Wikipedia talk:Main Page featured article protection. 07:48, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Unfair removal of Toki Pona

Here a quote from the talk page of Akhilleus, who lately deleted Toki Pona. Please reconsiderate and review together this decision. --LaPingvino (192.87.49.2 08:13, 12 June 2007 (UTC))

Begin quote:

---

toki pona

Hi, why was the toki pona page removed? thanks AJ

See discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Toki Pona (2nd nomination). --Akhilleus (talk) 14:09, 8 June 2007 (UTC)

Most people in that discussion voted to keep. Furtheron, it became one of the biggest conlangs in the last years, having more than 100 speakers, and in some time will probably pass by languages like Ido. Yet it seems to be more in use than Lojban. And I often came back to read the article, because it really is interesting. And this article has many interwiki-links too, which indicates a lot too. So please put the article back! --LaPingvino, moderator of the biggest toki pona mailing list (moderated, few hundred members), fluent speaker

---

End quote

• Note that AfD is not a vote. A possibility is that the people arguing Delete had better arguments than the Keep side. The lack of reliable secondary sources was what caused it to be deleted. If it were only covered by self-published sources, ir would not be enough to establish notabiliy and kept.--Kylohk 10:18, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• I've read over the AfD and it seems like it was deleted for legitimate reasons (namely no reliable, outside sources). Like Kylohk said, Afd is not a vote. The decision over whether to delete the article is decided by the strength of the arguments, not the number of votes. It is clear that the delete arguments on this AfD were much stronger than the keep ones and easily refuted any claims made by the keep votes. --13² 12:27, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• Also, just for the record, by my count there were 7 favoring deletion and only 5 arguing to keep. Which is not sufficient to meet the normal working definition of consensus, but does indicate that most of the participants did not vote to keep. -- Visviva 12:31, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Decision on Wikipedia:Notability (films)

Wikipedia:Notability (films) has been debated as a proposed guideline for some time now. Two editors now propose that it be adopted as a guideline since there has been no discussion pro or con for some time. This seems to be reverse logic to me, but I'm tired of fighting that fight. I suggest that anyone with an interest visit that discussion ASAP. --Kevin Murray 12:35, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

• Note that Kevin is misstating the issue to cast a page he doesn't like like in negative light. Asking leading questions really isn't helpful. >Radiant< 12:41, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Why discuss the issues when you can discuss the opponent? --Kevin Murray 13:24, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Indeed. I've been trying to get you to discuss the issue for quite a while, but for some reason that never seems to register. >Radiant< 13:36, 12 June 2007 (UTC)
      • In the absence of reasonable objection, it can probably be safely promoted. 81.104.175.145 15:00, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• To provide clarity that the discussion is over and that a consensus has been reached, it may be important to close and then archive the proposal discussion. To close a proposal discussion, indicate the outcome at the top. To archive a proposal discussion, a "top" template generally is be placed between the header and the top of the discussion and a "bottom" template will need to be placed at the bottom of the discussion. (See Template:Discussion top). -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 15:01, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

marriage proposal

I'm interested in proposing to my girlfriend by creating a wikipedia page in which the search criteria are her first name and my last name. I've checked, and the page doesn't already exist. Is this a violation of the rules for article content? I don't really care if it gets deleted after the proposal, although it would be kind of nice if it remained on the site for a while for our friends and family who are interested to view it. Any info. would be great.

Thanks.

It would be deleted way too soon to be of any use to you. Friday (talk) 18:53, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

What you could do is make a userpage, and put it on there, but I don't know what the odds are of getting a google search on that. Martijn Hoekstra 19:39, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not MySpace. There are many sites that would be more useful to you for this idea. User pages are indexed by search engines, by the way. Adrian M. H. 19:47, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Dude! If you can't get it together to do the "present ring, drop to knee, stare deeply into eyes, and intone "Will you make me the happiest dude inna world...?" routine" then simply tell her your periods late and your family honour is at stake. Anyway, who would want to get engaged in the middle of an edit war? LessHeard vanU 19:54, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

This is NOT a very good idea; if this page managed to survive more than 10 minutes, it would probably be hideously vandalized. I can see it now:

21:54, 13 June 2007 206.23.34.1 (Talk | contribs) Boopsie, will you marry me?

21:55, 13 June 2007 MisterVandal (Talk | contribs) Boopsie, will you marry me, you fat pig?

21:56, 13 June 2007 Quibbler (Talk | contribs) Boopsie, will you marry me, you fat pig?

21:57, 13 June 2007 WikiGnome (Talk | contribs) Boopsie, as a fat pig, will you marry me?

Also it doesn't belong here :). CredoFromStart ^talk 14:22, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe this should have posted at Village Pump (proposals) . . . ;) Adrian M. H. 14:37, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

<Clicks link />. <Slaps forehead /> - Tiswas^(t) 15:34, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Ho ho. If you want to propose, just go pay her a visit! Wikipedia's not the place to do such things since it's not a social network, and your fiancee doesn't seem to be notable enough to warrent an article. Congratulations, by the way.--Kylohk 15:32, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguating first names

Should we maintain huge lists of persons known by a certain first name as, e.g., in Sophia? What's the point? Do we really expect that people would search, say, Sophie Amundsen, under "Sophia"? --Ghirla^{-трёп-} 22:30, 12 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe; I think the point is that there are some people named Sophia that will be searched by their first name (thus necessitating the disambig page), and you know the snowball effect of WP - Once the page exists, everyone who's interested in anything that closely resembles the subject of a disambig will drop their little favorite item/person/place/band/concept on there. I don't really think there's a solid way to decide which ones "deserve" to be on there - and I don't think there's a lot of precedent (or need) to cite the reason for inclusion on disambig pages. CredoFromStart ^talk 14:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

To address your issue, I clarified what may be added to Sophia based on the information listed at disambiguation. In addition, I added {{disambig-cleanup}} to the bottom of the page. See generally Wikipedia:WikiProject Disambiguation. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 15:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

When to cite

Because our guidelines for when and when not to provide a citation are hopeless vague, the degree to which an article should have citations is a recurring problem with featured article candidates and reviews. A while back, I created user:Raul654/When to cite as a (work in progress) primer for when a citation is or is not required. Following yet another thread on wikipedia:attribution about this very issue, I've moved it to Wikipedia:When to cite with the intention of turning it from a workshop into policy. As the page says, I'm interested in getting as much input into this page as possible. Raul654 15:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Note: WP:REF#When_to_cite_sources ... deals with much of the same material. Blueboar 13:44, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Admins may "trump" policy?

Does official Wikipedia policy reflect the consensus of editors. Is there a requirement for an administrator to uphold policy?

For example, if an editor is demonstrably uncivil, and I report it, should an Administrator be able to decide whether to ignore it, or should they be duty-bound to do something? And if the incivility continues, for how long can an Admin ignore it? --84.9.191.165 16:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

• Admins may not "trump" policy, but they may apply WP:IAR in some situations. In your given example, it's hard to imagine justifying incivil behavior, but it may be the opinion of an admin (or anyone) that the behavior isn't really incivil. In any case, if anyone, admins included, seems to display a pattern of ignoring policy without any real justification, it'd be the sort of thing that might warrant some kind of review. Arkyan &#149; ^(talk) 16:11, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict) There is no requirements that an administrator actually "do something". However, admins are bound to uphold policy. So, for example, an administrator is not permitted to be blatantly uncivil but if you report this to another administrator, there's nothing that compels them to do anything about it. As a general rule, you should be reporting to the noticeboards, not to a particular admin. --Yamla 16:13, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

If you have a problem with an admin, try chatting it out with them, but if you feel that this is not working take it to a noticeboard. Just be prepared for the folks on the noticeboard to agree with the admin. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 16:57, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Citations

I would like to know why it is allowed to remove requests for citations within articles without providing said reference material.

This is supposed to be an educational site- yet people here post POV without citing credible sources.

How do you block someone from removing citation needed requests?

ThanksI vonH 20:28, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Tell me about it. Some editors just don't seem to care about WP:V, WP:RS or WP:REF. Whenever I spot a tag being removed inappropriately, I usually replace it with a polite advisory summary. The onus of attribution is on the editor who added the material, and there is always the option to contest (or remove in some cases) the most questionable statements and add {{fact}} to others. Adrian M. H. 20:32, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, there's nothing inviolate about a request for citation. I've seen such reqwuest that I thought were inappropriate due to adequate citing or other reasons. This is known as a content dispute and it happens all the time. If you have consensus on yoru side, it should be no problem to restore the tag. If it's more split or you're in the minority, check out Wikipedia:Resolving disputes for a variety of options. -Chunky Rice 18:28, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Fair use album covers

If there is a fair use rationale for use of an album cover, does that rationale apply to articles about the songs on that album, or only to the album itself? Corvus cornix 20:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I would suggest, no. An album cover is created for the entire body of work, and only as an identifier of that complete work is the use of the image permitted. LessHeard vanU 21:39, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

The rationale for an album cover is usually specified only for use in the article about the album. If the song was released as a single, then that cover should be used to identify it. If it wasn't (e.g. Stairway to Heaven), then it is possible to write another rationale for the image to be used in the article about the song. ShadowHalo 22:14, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Software Changes

A few days ago I was in process of applying a block to a persistent vandal, and on arriving at the block page I found that in addition to usual "account creation" and "IP block" boxes, a third box had appeared giving the option of applying an e-mail block.

This was not directly challenging, as on going to WP:BLOCK I was able to find out about it. But just coming across it was disconcerting - I missed User:Ryulongs comment in WP:AN where he announced that he wished this change implemented.

I would like to propose that when changes to the software are made which impinge directly and immediately oo administrator functions, an e-mail is sent out to all administrators (or, if preferred, all active administrators) notifying them of the change, with if necessary an indication as to where details of the change are posted.--Anthony.bradbury^"talk" 21:59, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't think it would be a good idea to e-mail all the active administrators about every change to the software that relates to administrative functions, as it could be perceived as spam. If you are interested in being notified by e-mail about software changes, you can subscribe to the Signpost (which covers this) and have it sent to you by e-mail. Tra (Talk) 22:31, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Its a feature, rejoice that the devs are working and improving mediawiki. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 00:16, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I did not say that it was unwelcome. I did not even say that was a difficult concept. I just said that it would be nice to know about before suddenly discovering it. I take the point about Signpost.--Anthony.bradbury^"talk" 09:40, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah keep an eye on the signpost, but don't expect the devs to e-mail us every time a new feature is added, there are more wikis beyond just the english wikipedia. —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 17:10, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

You can also subscribe to the mailing list (wikitech-l) if you want to keep right up-to-date (you can also view this via Nabble if you don't want to clog up your inbox). HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 17:13, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Screen shots

Can screen shots from movies or TV shows be used to illustrate articles about the characters who appear in the screen shot? Or can they only be used in articles about the shows/films themselves? Corvus cornix 22:43, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

If there is something distinctive about the character's appearance which would not be satisfactorily explained with a (presumably free-use) image of the actor, then it would seem reasonable to use a screenshot. The only alternative would be for someone to take a picture of the actor "in costume" at some event, and even then there are issues (I seem to recall that pictures of people in Darth Vader outfits infringe something or other). HTH HAND —Phil | Talk 17:18, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I understand that screen shots can't be used in the actor's article, but I'm less sure about the character's article. Corvus cornix 18:27, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Some of the talk pages for the tags at Wikipedia:Image_copyright_tags/All#Screenshots screenshots address this question. Also, the TV tag reads "for identification and critical commentary on the station ID or program and its contents" and the movie tag reads "for identification and critical commentary on the film and its contents." They may come across differently if they read "program or its contents" or "the film or its contents." It seems that you could use a screenshot of a character as "contents" if it were being discussed as part of discussing the TV program or the film. As for using a screenshot of a character in an article about the character rather than an article about the TV program or the film, I think Phil's answer covers it. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 21:39, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

OK, thanks. Corvus cornix 18:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Flags at Brethren Court

The images used for the flags at the Brethren Court article are listed as being on Commons, some of them created by users, others copied from other sites with claims of GFDL. But all of them are derived images from the film. Can somebody take an image like a flag, from a movie, draw it up, and then claim they own the copyright to it and release it for Wikipedia's use? Corvus cornix 23:17, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Check out Commons:Derivative works. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 21:23, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks. It looks like those images need to be deleted from Commons. Corvus cornix 18:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Request for clarification

I was looking through CAT:TEMP today, and I noticed the huge amount of user talk pages in the category. Should user talk pages be ignored when deleting pages in this category, or should they be deleted just like a user page? Sean William @ 23:21, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

It looks like Template:Indefblockeduser adds indefinitely blocked user pages to Category:Temporary Wikipedian userpages. This was discussed here, where Pathoschild explained that

Indefinitely blocked userpages are deleted after roughly a month, as the category description explains, except for sockpuppets and banned users. The category allows administrators assisted by scripts to easily find such pages, without false positives such as Wikipedia:Template messages/User namespace.

-- Jreferee ^(Talk) 17:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but I'm talking about user talk pages. Are they fair game for deletion as well? Sean William @ 17:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

How do I delete my user and user talk pages? has some information about deleting talk pages. Unfortunately, it does not specifically address User talk pages with CAT:TEMP on them. Category:Temporary Wikipedian userpages seems to address user pages, but says nothing about user talk pages. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 19:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Right so should we delete the talk pages or not? —— Eagle101^{Need help?} 19:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

My guess is "No" per How do I delete my user and user talk pages?, but I requested clarification from Pathoschild on his talk page and asked him to respond in this thread. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 19:49, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The same logic generally applies to user talk pages which only contain warnings, trolling, or mundane discussion. That said, a deleting administrator might sometimes decide that the discussion is significant enough to keep indefinitely; a good balance in those cases is to blank the page with {{indefblockeduser|historical}}, which keeps the discussion available in the edit history while removing it from search results and removing it from the deletion category.

So, yes: user talk pages should be deleted as well, unless they're historically significant. —{admin} Pathoschild 20:58:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you for taking the time to clarify this. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 21:54, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Worrying huge vandalizing missed

There seem to be a lot of bots that do remove vandalism on Wikipedia quite effectively...however a huge section was deleted from London Bridge yesterday [3] at 00:46 which I have only just restored- seemingly noone who monitors that article having noticed it? Is this a flaw in the bot system? Why did it not stop this? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 00:58, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Bots aren't perfect. They will miss things on occasion, especially when faced with a persistent vandal. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 01:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

There will always be RC patrollers to cut some slack.--Kylohk 17:03, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

I think the problem was caused by the fact that shortly after the initial vandalism (9 minutes) another user removed the vandalism word [4], but failed to restore the deleted text [5]. Is there any way to get the bots to detect that this has happened and revert to before the initial vandalizing occured? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 18:04, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

It appears that minutes before, vandalism from the same user to the same article was actually reverted [6] and a message was left on their talkpage User talk:72.228.46.128. Perhaps there would be some way that ips that have been warned can automatically be put on a blacklist and have their edits reverted automatically? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 18:08, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Doing that would almost be equivalent to blocking them on their first offence. Tra (Talk) 18:14, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that people who vandalize suddenly change their ways and make good edits? Gustav von Humpelschmumpel 20:00, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Some of them will stop if warned. Not all, but enough. — Someguy0830 (T | C) 21:16, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Final warnings are often a powerful enough deterrent to keep them out of action for a while, I've rarely reported users I gave final warnings to on WP:AIV since they often stop.--Kylohk 15:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Spoiler templates for unaired events

I'm aware there was recently a large RfC regarding {{spoiler}}, but I simply don't have the time to delve through all the talk. Would it be appropriate to place a spoiler warning in a section of an article about a TV show regarding events which not have aired? Thanks. east.718 21:45, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

{{spoiler}} provides instructions on its present appropriate use. However, it might be kind to consider other user's opinions at RfC Spoiler warning before taking action. Of course, many editors operate from a Be Bold approach. In the end, we all are responsible for our own edits and its best to strive to make each edit one that will improve Wikipedia. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 02:41, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

How can an encyclopaedia article cover events that haven't yet happened, and who goes around changing all these articles after the show has been aired, and do they take into account the fact that the show might not have yet been aired in some other country? Dan Beale 18:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Movie Festivals and Notability

I would like to ask if there is any policy regarding the notability for festivals and their value in making films notable. I ask because I am in a discussion in New York International Independent Film and Video Festival and I stumbled on this (subscription to IMDB required), establishing some guidelines. What do you think?Stellatomailing 23:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia notability covers festivals: A festival is presumed to be notable if it has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. I think that IMBD can be edited merely by loging. However, I think IMBD has some oversight, so it's better than a web page, but I don't think it appropriate to copy information from http://www.nyfilmvideo.com/, into IMBD, and then into Wikipedia, citing IMBD as a reliable sources. New York International Independent Film and Video Festival has received significant, independent coverage, but that information does not seem to be making its way to the article. The present criticism section is POV, especially with words such as "high pressure", "exorbitant", "lack of legitimate festival status," "failed to capture mainstream media recognition," etc. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 00:27, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Hi Jreferee, please note that the word preceding the comments is "reported" and there aren't WP:RS saying that the festival is good. Maybe those details would be better discussed in the Article talk page. But just to explain better my goal here, is if we can come up with an objective way of saying what are "good" festivals and what are not, like IMDB says in their page; some kind of exclusive policy, like we have for books. Stellatomailing 00:34, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

You might try your request at Wikipedia:WikiProject Festivals. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 02:25, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Relevance

New proposed guideline: Wikipedia:Relevance. It's a big subject, naturally, so wide participation in its discussion is requested. See Wikipedia talk:Relevance for the rationale for its creation.--Father Goose 04:59, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The question of what should go in an article may depend partially on its Wikipedia quality grade. Wikipedia's quality scale for biography articles is here. Any one editor can grade an article as Stub, Start, or B status (think development status). However, GA, A, or FA status (think refinement status) usually is determined through agreement between two or more editors. In particular, what goes in or remains out of GA, A, or FA articles is guided by predetermined criteria: Good Article (GA) criteria, A article criteria, and Featured Article (FA) criteria. For example, whether a particular piece of information is relevant to an Good Article GA-class article can be determined by reviewing the available Wikipedia reliable source material against the Good Article (GA) criteria. Not all facts or information makes it into a GA, A, or FA article. However, if a statement meets Good Article (GA) criteria, then it should be added (or should not be excluded). As for articles falling in Stub, Start, or B status, they have less criteria than GA, A, or FA articles. Some of the information about Stub, Start, or B status is listed in the quality scale. A lot of it has to do with whether the information to be added is supported by a Wikipedia reliable source. Generally, whether a statement should go in a particular Stub, Start, or B status article can be answered by reviewing Wikipedia's five article standards. In short, relevance seems to be particularly covered by Good Article (GA) criteria, A article criteria, and Featured Article (FA) criteria and generally covered by Wikipedia's five article standards. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 17:37, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't quote copyritghted text

Korean wikipedia admin say following:

• All user can't quote any copyritghted texts.
• All user can quote free license texts only.
• Beacuse Korean wikipedia policy don't allow american fair use.
• So all quoted non-free text must be deleted.

It is Official Policy of wikipedia project?

I Can't quote any copyritghted texts? It is nonsense.

I want to know what is foundation's official policy.

I think korean admins do vandal acts. -- WonYong (talk • contribs • count • logs • email) 06:42, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

The foundation policy is here: foundation:Resolution:Licensing policy, but it deals mostly with images. I don't know what policies they have over at the Korean Wikipedial, but there is probably no need to invoke US fair use for simple text quotes. Most legal juristictions will have some laws that allow for brief attributed quotes from copyrighted material, I'm pretty sure they could find something suitable in Korean law. The question is wheter or not the Korean porject want to allow quotes, if they do the foundation policy will allow them to draft up a "EDP policy" based for example on Korean law (it's likely not more liberal than US so not rely a problem there). However we can't force them to allow this, I suggest you take it to whatever suitable noticebord there is on the Korean Wikipedia for policy issues. Maybe the admin is just very overzelous or maybe it's actualy the policy, I don't know, but either way this is a matter for the Korean community, not the English one... --Sherool (talk) 07:39, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

It may depend on how much text you are quoting. In the English version of Wikipedia, quoting a sentence or two is ok (especially if you provide a citation and give proper attribution to the quote), but quoting a large chunk of text is not. In any case, Sherool is correct, this is an issue for the Korean community. If you think one Admin is wrong, ask other Korean Admins for their opinion. Blueboar 13:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia or Pornopedia??

Hello. I use Wikipedia almost every single day. I use it to read up on all types of things in my career field, math and sciences. If I had to purchase books with the variety of information that I need, I would have to spend a fortune.

I think of Wikipedia as an encyclopedia, much like the old World Book encyclopedia. And never during my encounters with a World Book encyclopedia, was I able to encounter photos of a woman with cum / semen / jizz on her neck. Nor in World Book was I able to find photos of a woman who had been 'creampied'. (Porn term for 'the dude came inside of her and the viewing audience gets to watch it drip out.')

However, while I was trying to learn about Pearls, (about which many children and teens might have to write a book report), I found that I was able to access an article on the sexual connotation of Pearl Necklace. It had a charming photo of a woman with semen on her neck.

To see how pervasive this was, I began typing in other sexual terms (as a curious young teen would do) and I was able to find photos and movies of a guy's erection shooting semen through the air and well as of a woman's vagina dripping semen out of it. There was also a wealth of information about bukkake and bios on p*rn stars that led to other porn star bios and other sexual articles.

Now, I read you policy about not really attempting to censor articles. But I think that you are asking for future legislative trouble, if a virtual encyclopedia becomes the avenue used to spread pornography to the masses.

There already seem to be 'billions and billions' (Carl Sagan term) of places that a person can go to if they want to be 'informed' about creampies, bukkake, pearl necklaces, deepthroat, etc. I hate to see a respected virtual encyclopedia, dedicated to becoming the CENTER of the spread of knowledge, become the CENTER of the spread of porn photos.

I mean really . . . do you want some child 'spreading the news' to other children (and eventually his parents and teachers) that they get their best porn from Wikipedia?

Think about that 'censorship' clause again. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Software engineer 1 (talk • contribs)

So, your objection seems to be that when you looked up sexual topics, you found sexual content in the articles? What exactly did you expect? Friday (talk) 17:44, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

OH NOES, MY VIRGIN EYES... THEY BLEED.... Raul654 17:46, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I would strongly suggest that you avoid Googling 'black cock' when looking for images related to Santeria, in this case... 64.126.24.11 17:57, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• Knowledge is not always pleasant, and knowledge of that which we oppose makes us more equipped to combat. Some of these images are demonized out of residuals from Victorian morality. Why is semen more offensive than blood or saliva? However, I do think that it is important that we not slip over the line to titillation. When I was growing up in the 1960’s the big thrill in elementary school was looking at bare breasts in National Geographic, and that publication has not suffered in reputation. --Kevin Murray 17:58, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• Unfortunately some people see "not censored" and use that as an excuse to cram all kinds of objectionable material into an encyclopedia. I have no idea how this 'problem' could be changed, you made a polite suggestion and look at the responses you're getting. Weirdly, I am allowed to show all kinds of dodgy photos, but I'm not allowed to call myself "EjaculatingPenis" or whatnot. Dan Beale 18:52, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

• Some would say 'Wikipedia: It's not your Father's encyclopedia.' For one, Wikipedia uses in-line citations with up-to-date information whereas print encyclopedias required you to take their word for it. I deleted the image in Creampie (sexual act) since it did not show ejaculating in the vagina or was not otherwise relevant to the text of the article. If an article tilts to much towards titillation, Wikipedia:WikiProject Pornography may be the best place to address such concerns. Also, you can read about efforts regarding your concern at Wikipedia:WikiProject Wikipedians for encyclopedic merit and it's talk page. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 18:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
  • I'm not sure that I support your removal of the picture, as it was an accurate portrayal of the result of the act; however, it doesn't seem necessary to have a picture to understand the topic. --Kevin Murray 18:47, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
    • I considered that position, but I really couldn't see the resulting evidence as the photo wasn't that clear. The white looked to be from camera glare rather than evidence of prior presence. If you can see it in the photo, feel free to add the photo back in and revise the caption. -- Jreferee ^(Talk) 19:07, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
• The short answer is - if you don't want to learn about sexual topics, don't look. If you think Wikipedia not covering semen or penis will mean 9 year olds on the internet won't be able to learn about them - I have a surprise for you. You always have a right to copy Wikipedia to your own servers if you don't like it - or use Conservapedia or Citizendium, both of which are strongly censored to be family friendly (whatever that means). WilyD 18:19, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

There's a difference between covering a topic in an encyclopedic manner and allowing exhibitionist nerds to photograph (and display) their anus/penis/etc etc. Most cases, a good diagram conveys information better than a photograph does which is why botany still uses illustrators so much. Dan Beale 19:05, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

If your position is that a different picture would better illustrate the article, by all means use it. I don't think anybody would object to that. -Chunky Rice 19:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

This always depends on context - in general, drawings and photographs don't convey the same information - and I have field guys that use photos, field guides that use drawings (Ornithology). Wikipedia has space to convery as much information as we can - typically this'll mean both. WilyD 19:14, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

There's a fine line that needs to be drawn. On the one hand, Wikipedia is not, and should not be "censored." In that sense, it is perfectly acceptable for Wikipedia to (for example) have a photograph of a penis on the penis article. On the other hand, Wikipedia is edited, and it is undeniable that there is material that is occasionally put up for no reason other than prurience (continuing with the example, articles like penis have the problem that they end up with thirty-eight pictures of penises, as well as having people edit war to put the picture of their penis back on the article. A similar issue happened recently on the pubic hair article, which was overrun with an out-of-control gallery.) In situations like these, some editors inappropriately invoke the "no censorship" clause to claim that Wikipedia needs 38 blurry pictures of penises on a single article.

The goal for all responsible editors should be to make sure that topics are appropriately illustrated. That means both making sure that there is a picture when it is called for, and making sure that there aren't inappropriate, tangential, or otherwise overwhelming pictures. Editing is not censorship. Nandesuka 19:35, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I think I agree with this. Penis should have a picture of a penis, it should not have 38. WilyD 20:00, 15 June 2007 (UTC)

I totally agree that Wikipedia should not be "censored" however wikipedia should still be in "good taste", meaning it should not use photographs that would make people NOT read the article. Naturally many people (including myself) would prefer not to see actual images of penises if we're trying to learn about sexual anatomy. I simply don't read pages that have such images because the images are so "in your face" that it's impossible to even read the article. Some of you might object that aversion to such images is "Victorian" or puritan however the fact is many people don't like reading articles littered with images of penises or ejaculation or vagina's, especially if they are doing school projects on sexual anatomy. Dan Beale makes a perfect point, If wikipedia is truly "Uncensored" why are so many objectionable user-names banned but obviously objectionable images not? MANY people want to learn about anatomy but they don't want to see images of hairy putrid vagina's, dirty anus's or blood red erect penises. Images of both the Vagina and the Penis and the Anus which are drawn or animated could easily be used to replace images of actual body parts and they are less objectionable, which is why so many reputable encyclopedias use them. I simply don't even edit or read let alone look at such articles with disgusting or offensive images. I would prefer to be able to continue to eat my breakfast if I'm editing Wikipedia or trying to learn about anatomy. I know MANY people feel the same way and I believe that such images don't add to the articles but take away from them. As Dan Beale said: "There's a difference between covering a topic in an encyclopedic manner and allowing exhibitionist nerds to photograph (and display) their anus/penis/etc etc." Wikidudeman ^(talk) 11:38, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

...your argument (from what I gathered from that paragraph) is basically "I want to be able to eat while reading up on penises and vaginas, but I have a weak stomach". If your stomach is that weak, don't go to articles where you will be upset. Not difficult. Superfluous images can be an issue, but a sketch of a penis is not the same as an actual picture of one. "I don't like it" is a horrible argument. EVula // talk // ☯ // 16:42, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

In general, sketches do not convey the same information as images. They compliment each other, not replace each other. WilyD 16:37, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

(reply to WilyD)38 would be excessive, but I would suggest that 1 would not be representative of the variety even for humans (and I note in that example the rest of the other species are severely under-represented), many of whom who are so endowed may have issues as regards what conforms to the average. So, to properly illustrate an article in a medium that supports images, you do need a fair representation of "types", and that is something an illustration can rarely manage. LessHeard vanU 15:17, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, if you don't want to know about those things, don't visit that page. If a page related to those things has too many images that are of bad taste, there is nothing wrong with you removing several of them since Wikipedia's not a photo gallery. The topics can be there, but fortunately they aren't supposed to be saturated with images. So this problem is kind of covered.--Kylohk 19:47, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Proposal: Change of policy on "established editors".

I've been seeing a major problem with "semi-protected" pages especially in relation to the Brock Lesnar page. Though there are numerous other pages with the same problem, My personal experience is with that page. That page is on an "indefinite full protection"(it keeps being re-protected when the time expires, for months on end) apparently due to a single vandal making sockpuppet accounts. Apparently this person makes "sleeper accounts" and waits for a few days to be able to edit semi-protected articles and then vandalizes them. I wanted to know if it would be possible to change the policy to make it so editors can't edit semi-protected pages unless they have both waited 5 days as well as have made at least a dozen good non-vandalism edits. This would erase the possibility of making "sleeper accounts" because most vandals would not go through the trouble of making 12 good edits simply to make one vandalism edit which will instantly get reverted and get them banned as a sockpuppet. I believe this would drastically decrease the amount of vandalism to semi-protected pages on Wikipedia and prevent pages such as Brock Lesnar (just a single example among many) from being indefinitely protected due to fear of a single vandal. We're currently being held hostage by vandals with "sleeper" sockpuppets who are able to vandalize pages after waiting the amount of time needed to edit semi-protected pages. We need to make it so in order to edit semi-protected pages you need at least 12 good edits and must be a registered user for at least 5 days. When I say "good edits" I simply mean edits of anykind because if they were vandalism, the person would be banned before ever being able to get to the necessary 12 to vandalize semi-protected pages. Both the waiting period and the minimum edit-count would be required to curtail many vandals who vandalize semi-protected pages. It should be both a waiting period of a few days as well as an edit minimum prior to being able to edit semi-protected pages. If they had a choice they would choose to build sleeper sock puppets, making several at a time just to wait out the time period and then vandalize pages. There needs to be both a waiting period as well as an edit minimum prior to being able to edit semi-protected pages. I got support for this when I posted it on Wikipedia talk:Protection policy and was told I should bring it here which has higher traffic. I would like some input on this proposal as well as methods for enacting such a policy. I believe it would drastically improve our ability to fight vandalism against semi-protected articles and spot vandals prior to them being able to edit semi-protected articles.Wikidudeman ^(talk) 11:22, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

• I think that you are on the right track, but the proposed standards should be stricter. For example (1) registration to edit, and (2) one month waiting period to edit semi-protected articles. A serious new contributor with good information can submit the information through the talk page. I think that a criterion for number of "good edits" could be defeated in a matter of minutes with minor meaningless edits. --Kevin Murray 11:42, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

No, I disagree. A 1 month waiting period might be too long firstly, I believe that 1 week is more than enough. Secondly, A minimum number of edits is absolutely necessary IN ADDITION to the waiting period prior to being able to edit semi-protected articles. Many vandals make "sleeper puppets", several at a time, and then let them wait the minimum amount of time required before they can edit semi-protected articles and then vandalize them copiously. Category:Wikipedia sockpuppets of Verdict is an example of such a person who basically holds articles such as Brock Lesnar hostage so they must be in an indefinite state of total protection which harms the articles themselves. It's true that some vandals might make the 12 necessary edits to vandalize an article however it's not as easy to make 12 edits as you might think. If you think they could easily defeat the criterion for the number of edits, then we can make it 20 or 24. Would a vandal really make 24 edits and wait a week just to vandalize a page once or twice? I doubt many would.Wikidudeman ^(talk) 12:24, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe the current wait period for new accounts is 4 days. Has this been shown to be insufficient? The proposal to add 12 "good edits" makes some sense, but doesn't cover 12 vandalism edits done by a 4-day old account. You could possibly specify 12 edits done at least 4 days before the wait period expires (enough time to catch a vandalism account), but as you add more and more restrictions against abusers like Verdict, you shut down legitimate contributors in the process, and truly determined abusers can adapt to any restriction anyway.

I was unable to upload a touched-up version of an image I had uploaded to a new account on the Commons, and had to wait 4 days. Although that particular situation could be fixed (new users should be allowed to overwrite their own images), each restriction you add can inadvertently affect good editors. Restrictions should be judged against their impact on every editor before judging their effectiveness against bad editors.--Father Goose 20:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe a 7 day waiting period plus a minimum edit count of 30 edits would make more sense. 99% of vandals won't go through the effort to do this and if they just started randomly vandalizing they would be banned long before they reached 30 edits. This would only apply to semi-protected pages which new users can't edit to begin with, IP editors can't edit at all. The advantages would far out weigh any potential problems. Good faith editors could easily request on the talk page the changes they want to have made or just wait the 7 days and make 30 edits to change it themselves if it's not that important.Wikidudeman ^(talk) 21:24, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Violation of deletion policy?

I'd just like to bring this to the attention of the community, as it's incredibly frustrating me.

We've been trying to write neutral articles about the fringe science/pseudoscience topics HHO gas and Brown's gas for more than a year now, so that the public can see concisely what's actually being claimed and why these claims conflicts with laws of physics, etc. (See Talk:HHO gas#References annd Talk:Brown's gas#References for a bunch of references and background information.)

They have been nominated for deletion several times, with a whole bunch of people getting them deleted with votes like "Delete - this is pseudoscience". (I repeatedly maintain that this is not a criteria for deletion; we have lots of articles about pseudoscience, hoaxes, fringe science, and the like, but this falls largely on deaf ears. But this is besides the point.)

The last DRV explicitly said that a sourced article could be recreated. Anticipating another AfD, we worked really hard to gather reliable sources for every claim made about this stuff before recreating the article. It was eventually recreated by a proponent, and we got to work debunking and adding sources and criticism. I added comments by James Randi, Don Lancaster, and scientists mentioned in news articles, for instance. We added references to many news organizations, all notable enough to have Wikipedia articles about themselves. When we removed weasel word unsourced criticisms added by one particular user and replaced them with sourced criticisms like the above, he again nominated it for deletion. (For the record, I have been debunking crap like this on Wikipedia for four years. I am not a proponent or a hoaxer, yet have been labeled one in this debate, in spite of all logic and evidence, for trying to maintain a neutral point of view instead of an overly critical pseudoskeptical point of view.)

As for the violation itself:

In this latest AfD, about 19 editors (including seven admins) voted to keep the article, while about 15 editors voted to delete. In my opinion, a majority to keep, with competent editors on both sides, is pretty clearly not a "rough consensus for deletion", so the article should be kept, according to our deletion policy. Yet it was deleted. Again. By an admin who decided that his opinion was important enough to override a clear consensus for keeping the article. He made the exact same arguments in his closing statement as others made in their deletion votes, completely ignoring the actual discussion.

When we tried to put this decision up for deletion review, the deletion review was closed before anyone could participate, claiming that the previous AfDs for this article (and other related, but distinct, articles) were sufficient to demonstrate that we shouldn't have an article. But that's not how the deletion process works. Thankfully another admin re-opened it.

I thought DRV was supposed to be about the deletion process itself, but it's just filling up with more arguments for and against the article itself, like those made in an AfD. Can some uninvolved admins please get involved here and look at the actual deletion process itself? — Omegatron 12:53, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Everything looks okay to me. AfD is not a vote, and the delete arguments are much more solid. The DRV didn't need to be closed early, but it wasn't going to change anything: the last AfD was just fine, and DRV is not a second chance. Mangojuice^talk 19:18, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Notability (awards)

I have started a notability proposal for awards. I invite everyone to edit the proposal and comment on the talk page. -N 17:47, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Ban anonymous ip editing

For the past two years or so, I've noticed less and less ip users contribute healthily to the English Wikipedia. I can speak for myself; I use to be an ip user for a long while and learned of a lot since then, made a few mistakes, and learned from them. What made me come here was this discussion and after I read this section weeks ago (actually months have passed since) I came to the conclusion that ips are more dangerous than established users. For one, I have yet to see several ip users as much as established users banned; obviously, ips are normally not banned because many people may share the same ISP and all. Thanks to Centrx updating me with this here, my theory is supported — although I figured that anyways my theory was true to begin with. Now, I know many anonymous edits from ips are helpful — but as for the majority, they are not, and it is quite burdensome to have to go through and "rv" the usual ip vandal. Furthermore, those that experiment the Wikipedia as an ip (usually unknowing that a "You have new messages (last change)" can appear) is really, should one say, annoying? The person could be confused, or perhap, the person in another part of the room on their computer would say, "Huh, why did I get this message?" although that person didn't do anything, he/she will still be welcomed, or warned, etc. My point in all this is that someone (who happens to share an ip with a "vandal", whatever the case) normally looking at the English Wikipedia doesn't want to be bothered by a "You have new messages (last change)" even though that one person, or others, is innocent of any act they have done.

Does this make any sense? Lord Sesshomaru

By the way, perhaps an ifinite attractive message (of course, with the dismiss button) at the top corner on each article of this site saying something in the likes of "Click here to create an account/become a Wikipedian" would attract the attention of anybody. You wouldn't need to edit the encyclopedia as an ip user to figure that out. Lord Sesshomaru

• This makes perfect sense. I had not thought of the warning message poppping up to innocent users. I have advocated the ban for a while with one reservation, which is that we might lose some people who wade into editing slowly. Also, there could be a fear of signing up for something that is unknown and could possibly generate more spam in your life. Once people get hooked on WP, they will gladly sign up. But over all I agree that anonymous ip editing needs to go. --Kevin Murray 18:49, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

True story: it happened to me. My younger brother edited Wikipedia as ip in his room and I was lefted recieving the welcomings and other messages on my computer in my room. Thank god he moved out. Basically I took over, per say. Really, anonymous editing isn't a good thing, it must be banned. Any current ip users are welcome to create an account (which grants more benefits) and (usurp?) what they have on their ip pages to the new account. Lord Sesshomaru

I think this is a bad idea, and please look here and here to see why. Bjelleklang - talk Bug Me 19:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

• I've read a study somewhere that states although 97% of vandals are IPs, over 70% of IP edits are constructive. So it's a double edged sword, you may seem to root out most vandals, but a lot of innocents will also be blocked. Also, there is a chance that those IPs would just start many Vandal only accounts and make it difficult for the admins to handle.--Kylohk 19:43, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
  • Obviously those useful IP editors aren't interested in the same things I am. Nowhere near 70% of anonymous edits to the articles on my watchlist are constructive. Of those (probably a minority in the first place) that aren't straightforward wilful vandalism, the vast majority are illiterate or just plain incorrect. -- Necrothesp 20:11, 16 June 2007 (UTC)
    • Articles about society and popular subjects have a lot of IP vandalism. Articles about mathematics, science, history, etc. have a lot of good IP contributions. Most of the articles on the list on your user page appear to simply have no IP edits at all. —Centrx→talk • 20:21, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

What about the endless AOL and school ips that usually damage the community? What about the fact that someone could get blocked just for sharing the same ISP with others within the same ip range? With all due respect, wouldn't you hate for that "You have new message(s)" box appear on your screen and suddenly find that you had been blocked for vandalism just because someone is sharing the ip? Or worse, your ip is banned because of that someone you don't even know? Though you yourself didn't even edit as ip user, the possibility that someone else can is very much likely. Hence, anonymous edits have to really be banned to prevent any of this from happening. Lord Sesshomaru

From what I've heard, many ips change like from every day to every 15 min. It is a hell of a lot harder to track down an ip vandal, in this case, then it is to track down an account that will not change every whatever. Multiple accounts used for things like sockpuppetry, etc., are commonly obvious to notice. Ips are the ones that can change in this manner and that's frightening right there. 97% of vandals are IPs, over 70% of IP edits are constructive. How is this sentence meaning to relate to a double-edged sword? Unfortunately, majority rules here. Lord Sesshomaru

Most IPs do not change frequently, and school IPs do not change at all. Vandalizing school IPs are blocked, which does not require prohibiting IP edits. —Centrx→talk • 20:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Nobody, or hardly anybody, notices the good editing that anon/ip's do, which is why statistics need to be thoroughly tested. Yes, a great many ip's make a few vandal edits (usually on the higher traffic articles) and giggle at the other editors having to come in and revert them. A couple of hours, or even a couple of evenings, dumb entertainment. Usually they get tired of the game and find something else to amuse themselves. However in terms of quantity there are a few ip's/anons who contribute regularly and add in great content, which even out the vandals. If the ratio between vandal and good ip editors is 100 to 1 the amount of good work the 1 does out quantifies the 100 over one year. Do you really want to lose one years (plus) worth of good edits from one editor just so you don't have to revert the work of 100 idiots? LessHeard vanU 20:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Answering your lst question, yes that's a good trade. Good IP contributors often don't join because they don't have to. I don't think that forcing them to join will automatically cause them to quit. --Kevin Murray 20:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

By the same token, forcing a vandal to take 3 seconds to register is not going to prevent them from vandalizing. The only way to make a proposal like this effective is to force a waiting period for everyone before they can edit. —Centrx→talk • 20:25, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

That might be the solution. Editing articles begins 24 hours after registration. --Kevin Murray 20:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I did the maths over at User:LessHeard_vanU#Anon ip editors have edit hours on their side. If we lose 1 editor to stop 99 vandals then WP is down 27% in quantity. My assumptions there may be argued over, but the formula works. LessHeard vanU 21:03, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we will eventually have to ban anonymous editing once we reach the tipping point where the benefits do not outweigh the costs. But apparently the people who actually study this show that point has not been reached. What we do need now, is a change to the semi-protection policy. Now, semi protection is only imposed when there is a high rate of vandalism, and then only for a short time. We need to protect pages that are IP vandal magnets permanently. Hopefully this will reduce vandalism by protecting the high value targets. But also it will relieve the burden on the editors who try to keep those articles clean. I have stopped watching some articles like Bald Eagle because of this nonsense. This will strike a better balance between allowing IP edits and banning them altogether. We only need to protect probably less than 1% of the total articles, so this should not discourage new users much at all. Dhaluza 20:34, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

Though there are certain valid arguments for banning IP editing, your's doesn't make sense to me. You argue that it would be awful to find out your IP has been blocked from editing when it wasn't you who incurred the block, so the solution is to just block all IPs indiscriminately? Atropos 20:40, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

If you are responding back at me Atropos, then yes. It isn't a bad idea, just have a big, attractive message at the top of this website that encourages people to create an account. As I said, you don't have to start out as an ip user to figure out how to edit. Of course, the possibility of being blocked/banned just because someone shares the ip of an innocent is preposterous. I believe the statistics are true; too many anons just vandalize for the hell of it and established users feel more comfort and vandalize less. Of course this is speculation, but rather intellectual speculation. Ips must be banned. Lord Sesshomaru

Foundation policy says no. That said, I think about 70% of anon edits are good faith edits (although some are not exactly of the greatest quality). I've encountered many anons who revert vandalism and many anons who source their statements. The other 30% is fairly easily revertable stuff given the number of RC patrollers. Sure, some vandalism gets through, but that's what's expected. Yes, 70%, based on some surveys that have been thrown around. Good faith edits are hard to come by and anons are a good source of them. After all, vandals do not necessarily stick to IPs. x42bn6 Talk Mess 21:14, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

people should be pragmatic about this. A complete ban of IP editing is not politically an option right now, but it is an option that we need to keep scrutinizing. We should not hand around statistics about how useful IP edits are that are long outdated (and were never very convincing to begin with). The pragmatic approach is long-term semiprotection. I believe it will become more and more "socially acceptable" to leave developed articles sprotected indefinitely. Many already are. With this option of selectively banning IPs from editing articles, we can make the required transition to a less IP-friendly Wikipedia without the tedium of having to revolutionize policy. dab (𒁳) 21:29, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

This is my opinion in a nutshell. --Ghirla^-трёп- 21:52, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I like the idea that says we keep this under review. But banning of IP editting presently will lead to vandals creating accounts to vandalise still - we would just remove "casual" vandals and kids wanting to have some "fun." The serious vandals or issue-heads would simply register - we already have more than enough evidence of that on semi-protected articles. The idea is that anyone can edit Wikipedia, and we should keep as close to that principle as possible, which in my opinion a blanket ban would not. Rgds, - Trident13 22:18, 16 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess ips shall continue editing the Wikipedia. I lose this one, heh. Lord Sesshomaru

I don't see this as a loss, but a primary step. However, I think that this change must come at the highest levels, and to affect such a change we need dialog. --Kevin Murray 00:56, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

This is a perennial proposal, and is impossible to enact because it clashes with Foundation issues. Ability of anyone to edit articles without registering is a foundation issue (it's basically a principle of all WMF projects). As long as they're sponsoring us (ie, paying bills and other expenses) we live by their rules on certain things, editing without registering and NPOV are just two examples. -Royalguard11(Talk·Review Me!) 03:20, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Edit by mail

I think Wikipedia should have a function that allows readers to send articles through email. The sender should be able to include their name, email address, and a brief note.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.51.81.217 (talk • contribs)

If you want to create a page without registering an account with Wikipedia, see Wikipedia:Articles for creation, but it's easier to create an account. No personal information is required. What advantage would a system of creating articles by email have? The only situation I can think of is for someone who has access to email but not the World Wide Web, or who is blocked from editing wikipedia by a local policy, such as one which bans any url with "&action=edit" in it.-gadfium 06:05, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

The "too short username" policy

I would suggest to enact a policy against usernames with less than three letters in it. This becuase of the following reasons:

• Usernames of one letter can induce the feeling of an elite of Wikipedia.
• Usernames of less than three letters can be a sign that the user doesn't want to be searchable by a search engine. This can give a bad inpression, as Wikipedia is a collaborative project.
• Changing to a one-letter username, can give the impression of trying to hide.
• A one-letter username can confuse people, as it's difficult to match a specific user with just a letter, with no other references to build up a mental picture.
• There is a high probabillity for the username to match a shortcut page, and thus give the impression to some that it represent official wikipedia thing.

I hope I didn't miss anything. I think there should be a policy to avoid too short usernames, especially usernames with only one or two letters in it. _→AzaToth 07:01, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

There are only a few hundred of these names, and I believe they are all taken (a few could be usurped). The number of active editors with names less than three letters long is quite small. So I don't see the need to forcibly rename these users. — Carl (CBM · talk) 07:29, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

I'll take these in turn.

1. They don't in me.
2. It doesn't give a bad impression to me.
3. It doesn't to me.
4. I don't have a mental picture of more than half a dozen or so people. To me, User:Y is no more of a nobody than you are.
5. These users would be rather slow-witted.

User:Y's username excites one emotion in me: Envy. Why didn't I think of it and grab it for myself first? But I didn't; they did, and good for them. -- Hoary 07:33, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Ironically, when you look at User:Y's contributions as of right now, his last admin action was a username block... anyway, the proposal above is unnecessary instruction creep, which WP:U doesn't already have a shortage of. I call on any supporter of this proposal to show how short usernames harm the project. szyslak 07:41, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Usernames that are common first names are probably viewed more often as elites. One-letter names just look gimmicky. –Pomte 09:00, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you consider either a reason for a ban on such names? We could point out hundreds of other names that "look gimmicky". Some might consider my own name gimmicky. szyslak 18:34, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, that proposed policy seemed to be assuming bad things about those users. If you are meant to assume good faith but not elitism, you shouldn't restrict short user names, especially if a minority of users will actually have the envy to take users names to be "personalized license plates".--Kylohk 19:06, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

YOUR NPOV policy vs consensus

Hi, I, User:WHEELER was one of the early editors at Wikipedia. I was chased off awhile back. I came back on just to add Sparta as a republic at List of republics. I am constantly reverted. I have a ton of evidence! I posted all of it. But the last time I was one the biggest policy was NPOV but now I have come across another even greater policy "PER CONSENSUS". You state that Wikipedia is NOT a democracy---But in the bowells of Wikipedia--there is Clique that I must pass muster and no matter how much evidence-----------I am reverted! Consensus? How does a Monarchist, a traditionalist as myself, have "consensus" with Marxists? I can't edit the republic article because I am constantly reverted! I had my articleThe Spartan Republic published at Sparta a Journal. Yet, I post this, and the Clique will NOT allow Sparta on the list of republics. Why is that?

Furthermore, how can you have NPOV when a Consensus must approve of my edit? that is Illogical! What happened to verifiability and NPOV? You can't have NPOV AND consensus at the same time---that is illogical. I am glad I am at Wikinfo. I don't have to satisfy a clique of Marxists!!! WHEELER 19:44, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

NPOV? My ass! Consensus destroys NPOV.WHEELER 19:46, 17 June 2007 (UTC)

ONLY the POV of the clique is allowedWHEELER 19:51, 17 June 2007 (UTC)