Wikipedia:Wikiquette assistance

Welcome to wikiquette assistance
Wikiquette assistance is a forum where editors who feel they are being treated uncivilly can request assistance. The goal here is to help all parties in a situation come to a mutually agreeable solution. It is designed to function via persuasion, reason, and community support, rather than threats or blocks. Your first resort should be a polite attempt to discuss the problem with the other editor(s). No binding decisions are issued here. If you seek blocks or bans, see WP:ANI instead. Sections older than 5 days archived by MiszaBot II. (For help, see Wikipedia:Purge) Please notify any users involved in a dispute. You may use {{subst:WQA-notice}} to do so.
Search the Wikiquette archives Additional notes: Before posting, see that you've made every attempt to follow the advice at Guide to avoiding disputes. Consider the helpful advice here and see the dispute resolution process. Include diffs that show the situation. See the Simplest diff guide for help. The conduct of all parties will be taken into account. Assistance may involve suggestions for altering your own behavior to avoid conflict. Volunteers are welcome. See the volunteer instructions.
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Active alerts

Personal attacks and deletion of talk page postings

Thanks to whichever volunteers handle issues at this page, I hope you find your work rewarding.

I've been tolerating provocative rudeness by User:Ilkali at Talk:Gender of God for some time now. Mainly I've ignored it, and stuck to answering nit-picking challenges and Wikilawyering. Eventually, I worked out it was trolling of some kind and I shouldn't feed it. I gave notice of withdrawing from discussion and explained why.

Now, however, this user is actually insisting on removing a reply I have given as part of a very long standing discussion to another user, who is currently absent. I have given warnings and finally a 3RR warning. Personally, I'd rather the user just chooses to be more civil, and allow things that irk him to stand; but how can I continue interacting with another long standing editor on this page, if a third party deletes my replies? Or am I to understand I can edit talk pages as well as articles and delete comments I think are inappropriate?

It seems to me we need to be even more generous in what we allow in talk pages than we do in articles. Where would we be if people had the right to delete talk page posts they disagreed with? Does this user have the right to remove my comment here?

Sorry to trouble you, but I've spent a long time talking an important issue through with User:Andowney and we actually seem to be getting to the end of it at last. But now Ilkali has deleted my reply. :( Alastair Haines (talk) 15:50, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

Unless I am missing something, you and perhaps User:Andyowney are misusing the talk page: [[WP:TALK}} "Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal." You've written " Asking questions and challenging human doctrines derived from revelation, not revelation themselves, is a great way to push oneself to depending more heavily on scripture, prayer, obedience and love. To depend on scripture is to depend on God (if we are correct to believe God is there and that he has spoken). Although I believe there is only one truth, and although I believe scripture informs us of much regarding gender, I think the processes are as important as the results. As you say, now it is "through a glass darkly" then it will be "face to face".But what do we say at Wiki? Christian view: "through a glass darkly" (Paul as understood by AH and AD)? I think here we must simply place the dark understanding of the scholars to this point, and leave the question quickly. If people want to know more, they should go to church and join the collective struggle to wrestle for as much grace of revelation as we can find as we turn to God's word together." That looks more like a sermon than using it as "a forum to discuss how the different points of view obtained from secondary sources should be included in the article". If I were active on that page, I'd probably remove that myself.--Doug Weller (talk) 18:25, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

You are overlooking the point. I say: But what do we say at Wiki?. You say: That looks more like a sermon. What does? The second half of the last sentence. Were you to remove on such grounds, and then repeat that after objection. I would report you for uncivil and biased editing. Thanks for taking the trouble to follow the links, and for reading the disputed comment. If the last sentence is the only objection, I will count your voice as agreeing with retaining the post. Cheers. Alastair Haines (talk) 23:06, 26 May 2008 (UTC)

"I've been tolerating provocative rudeness by User:Ilkali at Talk:Gender of God for some time now". Your first reply when I urged you not to use the talk page as a forum: "If you can't follow the discussion, feel free to stay out of it Ilkali". Do you consider that a civil response?

"Where would we be if people had the right to delete talk page posts they disagreed with?". Where would we be if people did not have the right to delete inappropriate talk page posts? This is not a matter of agreeing or disagreeing. As has been confirmed here, you were misusing the talk page. WP:TALK explicitly authorises the removal of off-topic posts.

"how can I continue interacting with another long standing editor on this page, if a third party deletes my replies?". You can take it to his talk page, as I urged you from the beginning. What exactly is your problem with this recourse? Why are you refusing to even consider it? Ilkali (talk) 08:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd like to see more input, but I still think it looks like the talk page has been used as a forum, and that this applies@

"Keep on topic: Talk pages are for discussing the article, not for general conversation about the article's subject (much less other subjects). Keep discussions on the topic of how to improve the associated article. Irrelevant discussions are subject to removal." (from [[WP:TALK}} Doug Weller (talk) 20:51, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Stalking and Harassment

Stuck

 – Despite there being nothing actionable, both editors refuse to move on and continue to edit war over a talk page archive.

What can I do to get user Mdsummermsw to stop following me around and trying to falsely attach me to other accounts, IPs, etc (see their talk page and the Michelle Rodriguez Discussion Archive page)? It's getting really old that this person reverts practically every edit I do, constantly makes accusations, and when I try to resolve the issue peacefully on their talk page, disemvowel my words, leaving only their own (again, see their talk page). They're behavior of psychotic research trying to prove some point that I am various others is disturbing and disruptive and I'm tired of it. At this point it's stalking, harassment, and slander. I just want to edit articles accurately, I don't want to be stalked and harassed 24/7 by someone who lives on Wikipedia every second of every day and makes it their goal to declare withchunts for no other reason than ego boosting or lack of anything better to do. I tell them to stop stalking and they respond by MORE stalking. It's insane, pathetic, and highly disruptive. Hope you can help. Thanks. LBear08 (talk) 19:10, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I have not yet looked into the allegations of harassment and false sockpuppetry accusations, but the disemvoweling is wholly inappropriate, such as in this edit. It is not acceptable to refactor other people's talk page comments, even on one's own user talk page (you may delete comments on your own talk page, but not edit them). I have warned the user about that.

Regarding the other allegations, do you have any diffs you could provide? --Jaysweet (talk) 19:24, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

LBear08 -- do you deny that you and User:L8ear08 are the same person? The allegations of sockpuppetry do indeed seem to be accurate, unless you believe you are using multiple accounts in a way that is within policy. Mdsummermsw has done nothing wrong by pointing out that these two accounts are almost certainly operated by the same person. --Jaysweet (talk) 19:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Also, it looks like Mdsummermsw's disemvoweling was in retaliation for the same repeated behavior on the part of LBear08. That does not make it okay, of course, but the deeper I dig, the more obvious it is that LBear08 is the problem here. The only thing Mdsummermsw did wrong was a single retaliatory disemvoweling edit, which she has since reverted. Mdsummermsw is pretty much in the clear here.

Now the question is, why is LBear08/L8ear08 engaging in sockpuppetry and filing bad faith Wikiquette alerts? --Jaysweet (talk) 19:36, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

First off, Yes! While L8ear08 seems similar to my name obviously and all of that, *I* personally have never signed in as that to the best of my recollection. Even if say I'd accidentally created two similar accounts and somehow don't remeber it, the problem is that the L8ear08 account makes edits to pages like "list of famous bisexuals" and Bjork, two topics of which I have no knowledge nor interest and especially would not be editing. So how can that be me? I don't know what's going on with the L8ear08 account (glitch? copycat?), but I am LBear08 not L8ear08. If I'd forgotten to sign in then one of those IPs could be mine, but the rest can't all be mine for goodness sakes and I'm tired of being hunted and having someone on my back (who is not an admin) 24/7. I just want to contribute to a few pages in peace as best I can. I just want this person to DROP IT and move on. Look back at how long ago that sock crap was posted and look at today's date and this user is STILL going on about it. At what point does it become deemable as harassment?

Second, no. My disemvowelmeant was in retaliation to THEIR constant doing so over the last several days (see their talk page and notice how they've been at it for awhile whereas my disemvowelment I JUST did today to prove the point of how obnoxious it is. That user is only in the clear when they stop harassing me. At what point will they stop with the accusations and stalking? LBear08 (talk) 19:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

I'd also like to add, all of this began b/c of a previous disagreement we'd had. Awhile later I decided I wanted to go back to that discussion page and remove my own comments as I had no desire for petty argument to remain up like that. I never should have sunk to their bickering level. So I removed my own comments. This user then decides it's their right and priveledge to dictate what I can and can't remove that I myself contributed (to a talk page mind you, NOT the article which I know cannot be edited like that). I simply was trying to demonstrate maturity and obtain peace and the user wanted all disagreements to remain, all of their baseless accusations to remain, etc. for no valid reason. I've attempted peaceful resolution and suggested he/she delete their accusations and I my retaliated comments. However, they refuse...and for no reason whatsoever. I simply want resolution and then to be left alone by this user. LBear08 (talk) 19:46, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Regardless of "who started it" with the disemvoweling, it will no longer be tolerated, and that goes for both users. I hope that much is clear.

I find it extremely hard to believe that User:LBear08 edited Michelle Rodriguez for the months of March and May, and that User:L8ear08 edited the same article for the month of April, and that this is all just a coincidence. But in any case, the other account does not appear to have been used to evade a block or to cause disruption, so let's just put that issue aside for now.

I did a cursory glance at each of your contrib histories, and I do not see any evidence of stalking or harassment. Regarding your complaint about deleting the comments from Talk:Michelle Rodriguez, Mdsummermsw is technically correct on this one. It is okay to archive old conversations on talk pages, but except for abusive or off-topic comments, it is generally frowned upon to remove discussions altogether. Those conversations stand as a record of the discussion and can be helpful for other users who are contributing to the article, so that they know what has already been discussed, etc.

That said, if Mdsummermsw agreed to let you remove the comments in question from Talk:Michelle Rodriguez, would you consider the matter resolved? While deleting conversations from talk pages is generally frowned upon, it is not unheard of, and if that will solve this problem I think that would be acceptable (if Mdsummermsw agrees, of course). --Jaysweet (talk) 19:56, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Of course. No more disemvoweling from me, I find it obnoxious as heck so I'd never want to do it again anyway. As for the user issue, you can believe whatever you'd like, but I am telling you that I am NOT and never have been user L8ear08. I have no idea what that user is about or doing (copycatting for kicks?) but it has nothing to do with me. Now as for the discussion pages, I would love that to be the resolution...for us to remove our interactions (or at least my own), but up until now Mdsummermsw has been completely uncooperative on that front and continues on about it hence my feeling of being stalked and harassed. If they would agree, that would be great. LBear08 (talk) 20:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Okay. Again, I see no evidence of stalking or harassment, and from a strict policy standpoint, Mdsummermsw is correct about not removing the discussion from the talk page. However, if it will make all the involved parties happy, I see no problem with making an exception to the standard policy and removing the conversation in question from Talk:Michelle Rodriguez. I have contacted Mdsummermsw and we will see if she is amenable to this solution. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:08, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

At the moment, I'm considering it. While considering it, I have again reverted LBear08's edits to the archive. - Mdsummermsw (talk) 20:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)

Fantastic. Well? LBear08 (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 02:31, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

At this point any further delay is intentional. I thought perhaps you simply hadn't been online and was giving you the benefit of the doubt, but in checking seems you were on for numerous hours just yesterday editing dozens of articles. As you have been every day since this resolution was suggested. So what is your response on the idea of use deleting the content on the archive talk page and achieving peaceful resolution by doing so? LBear08 (talk) 17:19, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Findings

There has been no stalking or harassment. LBear08 wants an old conversation removed from the Talk page and Talk page archives of Talk:Michelle Rodriguez, and has been removing the conversation in violation of policy. When the other involved editor reverted the removal, LBear08 incorrectly characterized this as "stalking." (Note that other editors have reverted the removal as well) While I believe the Talk page content in question could theoretically be removed without harm to the project, I would not feel good about doing so without the consent of all involved parties, and that has proved unattainable. Ultimately, LBear08's removal of Talk page content is in violation of policy, and if he/she resumes this behavior, it could result in a block.

Both involved editors engaged in disemvoweling, a highly uncivil and disruptive practice that is clearly prohibited on Wikipedia talk pages. Both editors have been warned and agreed not to do so again. If either editor engages in disemvoweling again, it could result in a block with little or no warning.

There are very valid suspicions of sockpuppetry on the part of LBear08 (User:L8ear08, nearly identical username, similar editing pattern) but as the alleged sock account does not appear to have been used disruptively or to evade a block, I would prefer not to comment on it at this time.

I was unable to find a compromise between these two users. However, I am marking the thread as "Resolved" anyway because there is no outstanding issue that needs attention. There is no ongoing content dispute, and both users have ceased their objectionable behavior. I strongly suggest that both editors move on with their lives. --Jaysweet (talk) 14:29, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

[1] - Mdsummermsw (talk) 16:20, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not right that someone can be threatened to be blocked for simply defending themselves against FALSE accusations. Mdsummermsw simply needs to let peace be achieved and move on, as suggested. Thanks Jay for your help alas as you said there is no resolution LBear08 (talk) 16:50, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Let me just point out to both of you how sad it is that you are edit warring over a talk page archive. Nobody reads the freaking archive, trust me. I have changed the status of this from "Resolved" to "Stuck". I still do not see anything actionable.

Mdsummermsw, if you are gung ho on seeing some action taken about LBear08's alleged socks, file a report at WP:SSP. The talk page is not really the proper place for it anyway. I would encourage you to stop edit warring over the talk page archive, as it is just not worth it, regardless of whether policy is on your side, and you could find yourself in danger of WP:3RR.

LBear08, I would urge you just leave the talk page archive alone. Nobody is going to look at it anyway. What was said was said, there is no point in trying to erase it from history. The best way you can put this past you is to move on, not to insist on removing it from the talk page archive.

I just don't see what either of you want. It seems you both just want independent acknowledgment that the other person is a bigger jerk than you. Well, it's not going to happen, because you've both engaged in unproductive behavior during this dispute and quantifying who did it more is just not a useful exercise. Move on with your lives. --Jaysweet (talk) 18:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You know what? Because I actually do have a life and cannot spend 5 to 10 (or more) hours a day, every day, editing and un-editing articles, in some attempt to win petty Wiki-wars, I will move on. Thank you Jaysweet for the time you've spent on this attempting to help me reach a peaceful resolution. It seemed pretty simple, alas turned out to be impossible. Clearly someone has to choose to let go of ego and step back. Apparently I'll be the one to do so. It is much appreciated the time you've spent on this though, despite the unfortunate results. Thanks again! :) LBear08 (talk) 22:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Wikistalk

This is User:SportsMaster. I have a case of Wikistalk with GoHuskies9904. He has been editing article I have created almost exclusively. For a small portion of the list of articles he has done this to see the following. Homer E. Woodling [2], Robert F. Busbey [3], Weird U.S. [4], 2004 NBA All-Star Game [5], 1997 NBA All-Star Game [6], 1981 NBA All-Star Game [7], 1972 NBA All-Star Game [8], 1951 All-Star Game [9]. Please note that he did not mark any other NBA All-Star games as stubs (presumably because I didn't create them). Here are more examples. Vixen (RV), Dodge Meadowbrook, Suzuki FZ50, Waterloo Hawks, Waterloo Hawks all-time roster, Moondog (mascot), Whammer (mascot), Robert E. Hawkins, Yahoo! Sports, Yahoo! Fantasy Sports, 2007-08 Drake Bulldogs men's basketball team, Maxwell Show. It seems to me he carries a beef with me since I reverted his incorrect edit on 02:48, February 27, 2008 about the 2007-08 Drake Bulldogs men's basketball team. [10] Here is a listing of all of his edits [11] Please also take not that this has gone on for months at a time.

--SportsMaster (talk) 20:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I reverted the tags on the NBA All-Star games, as it appears those were clearly made in bad faith. The other stub tags I looked at seemed appropriate. H

I noticed you have not actually asked him to stop following you around. I am about to do so now. Hopefully that will resolve the issue. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

Thank you Jaysweet for your help. It is greatly appreciated.--SportsMaster (talk) 20:53, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

User:GoHuskies9904 is now tagging all of the All-Star game articles as stubs. I could see an argument either way, I mean, mostly they just present game lineups and not a lot of encyclopedic detail, so he has a point. I'm not going to edit war over it.

SportsMaster, here's the thing... well I am not sure if he's been following you around or not (I just asked him point blank, we'll see what he says), most or all of his edits appear to be legit. Are there any in particular you have a problem with? --Jaysweet (talk) 21:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

I've added a stub tag to about all of the All-Star Game pages. 2002, 2006-present seem pretty good, but everything else has been tagged regardless of whether or not SportsMaster has had his hands in them. Nothing is done in bad faith, but when a user like SportsMaster has a history of just creating articles some of them are going to get tagged for improvement or deletion. Simple as that; most of them are good actually. -GoHuskies9904 (talk) 21:42, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

While that sounded like a good story, in truth if you look at your edits, the ONLY edits you have made have been on articles I have created. You have not edited anyone elses articles, except one in a very, very, blue moon. So if it was the case that you are trying to delete stubs, why not target others, there are PLENTY out there, other than my own articles to target exclusively as you have done. It is very annoying and very agrivating to have to log in and defend articles that I have written from deletion because you feel the need to nominate them on an almost daily basis. --SportsMaster (talk) 22:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

No one is stalking you, you just create many articles which subjects you to more interaction. Again, Wikipedia is not just yours, I am willing to work with you if you are willing to work with me. I'm not the only user that has been concerned about how you work with others. Everytime someone gives suggestions for your pages you report them for stalking/harassing you. That is not cool! I also nominate things for discussion, I don't just delete your work. I always go by majority rules. And I'm not trying to delete your All-Star articles, I'm just tagging them for expansion in which they need. I've tagged all the ones that need work not just including yours. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 23:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)

You are wikistalking me, that is obvious in your contribution history. I also have never said, nor incinuated the articles were "mine", I do not appericate you falsing stating that. Every is a very strong word GoHuskies9904, I would be careful with the words you choose. Why have you not address my conerns about you nominating other articles for deletion. As of right not they have been exclusively ones I created.--SportsMaster (talk) 00:25, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

If they aren't "yours" why are you so worried about allowing for group discussion on some articles I deem as shady for Wiki standards. If enough people share your opinion in the discussions then I respect that. I don't report you every time you disagree with me. And Wikipedia:Other_stuff_exists is not an excuse for certain articles you may have ties to exist. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 02:08, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I have examined GoHuskies9904's contrib history in depth, and while it is false that he only edits/critiques articles that SportsMaster is involved in, the overlap is high enough to draw a little concern. I am still nto 100% convinced, though, because most of the overlap is in regards to basketball-related articles... I mean, is it possible that both users just really like basketball? (Not like their usernames suggest that or anything ;p )

The other thing that makes this tough is that GoHuskies9904's contribs are almost all legitimate. I mean, you can't really dispute that Vixen (RV) is stub, right? And SportsMaster, another thing to understand is that having your article tagged as a stub is not a bad thing... in fact, in many ways it is a good thing, because it may attract other users to come help and improve the article.

Now, the one thing I am really concerned with about GoHuskies9904's edits is the high percentage of failed AfD nominations. Everybody gets it wrong sometimes (I'd be lying if I said I didn't) but from what I saw it looked like something like 50% of the AfDs GoHuskies9904 started result in Keep. That is potentially creating a lot of extra work for people to go in and vet these articles that really had no problem to begin with -- and, whether the overlap with SportsMaster's articles is coincidental or intentional, I hope you can understand how it would be really annoying to him!

What I would suggest, GoHuskies9904, if you are willing, is for you to refrain from directly nominating articles created by SportsMaster for AfD. (I think GoHuskies9904's other edits, including tagging SportsMaster's articles as stubs, are mostly beyond reproach, so whether GH is following SM around or not, I have trouble seeing anything actionable) If you are really certain, you can always contact a 3rd party and see if they agree.

Would this solution be amenable to both parties? --Jaysweet (talk) 13:32, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I think that solution works for me. Thank you once again Jaysweet. --SportsMaster (talk) 14:17, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I'll propose this. If I come across another article of his that I deem worthy of an AfD I will message him to see if he can't improve the article. If he does that, I won't nominate the article. However, Master has a pattern of not working well with others (i.e. reverting edits without proper reason, deleting any warnings or constructive critism on his talkpage, etc). Every time he has an issue with someone disagreeing with him he reports them to an admin or whomever. I'm not the only user he has done this too. Nothing has ever come from his reports either. All of my edits are legit. If he can work with me whenever I come across one of his hands-on article I won't be so hasty. But if he keeps reporting me or others I will just nominate cause I know I can't work with this guy. I'm just asking he learn to work with others and realize sometimes people will disagree and that wikipedia is a group effort and just because you created an article it doesn't make it yours. Thanks! --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 15:06, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I do work well with others. You are one of the exceptions. You seemed to take offense to me reverting your edit here [12]. Since you then preceded to disregard my comments I left on your talk page about the 2007-08 Drake Bulldogs men's basketball team article. The source you were using was a Seinfeld script, which HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH DRAKE BULLDOGS BASKETBALL, which I explained in my above comment. [13] Then you couldn’t seem to comprehend the comment I left you and wanted to get into an edit war over it. You also then left me this comment, which is TOTALLY uncivilized. [14] You then wouldn’t leave the article alone until another person agreed with me. [15] Then you proceeded to wait a few months (presumably thinking I wouldn't watch the page then (which I was)) and got into another edit war over it. [16]. You were once again proved incorrect. [17] Since you do started off by disregarding my comments I left on your talk page about the 2007-08 Drake Bulldogs men's basketball team article you seemed to want to get revenge by going through my edit history, and mainly my user page, which I have subsequently blanked for the very reasons and nominating numerous articles for deletion to annoy me and waste my time. Also once again Jaysweet he makes no mention of why he almost never contributes anything on his own, GoHuskies almost only nominates articles for deletion (stuff I have worked hard on and spent a great deal of time on). Without contributing anything on his own. Which he still has yet to address. You sir are the one who does not work well with others. After the afore mentioned totally uncivilized comment, I had good reason to not want to communicate with you at all. All this is taking an extreme amount of time and energy out of my day and is EXTREMLY frustrating. This has gone on for months and MUST CEASE. --SportsMaster (talk) 15:41, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Side question: Who are User:SportsMasterESPN and User:UWMSports?

As far as GoHuskies9904's perceived lack of positive contribs, well, I wish there were more work improving articles and less deletion nominations, but some of the cleanup work that has been done as a result is worthwhile.

GH, I would reiterate my proposal to you to just refrain from nominating SM's articles for AfD directly. On at least two occasions, the result of the AfD was Keep anyway. If you are really 100% certain, you can always contact a third party and ask them to nominate the article for AfD. I think this would make all of the involved parties happy, with only a very minimal impact on your ability to contribute to the encyclopedia. You can still nominate anybody else's article, and you can still suggest improvements to SM's articles. Any chance you would reconsider that proposal? --Jaysweet (talk) 15:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

SportsMasterESPN is SportsMaster's old username. He had to change it because an admin had a problem with it as an advertisement for ESPN. UWMSports is another user who has had issues with SportsMaster's work. One of the other users Master constantly reports.

And I would like to help improve some of these articles if my edits weren't reversed. Master does not work well with people! The only way my edits can stand or be considered is bringing in a third party. Again, I will refrain from nominating articles for deletion if Master agrees to work with me if I happen to come across one of his pages down the road. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 16:11, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

First off, stop changing the topic, it is not about UWMSports, secondly I had good reason to report him, and everything I did was valid. So find another reason. I am also sick and tired of you saying I do not work well with others. The afore mention Drake example is evidence you do not. So stop your complaining. --SportsMaster (talk) 17:48, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

SM, I asked about UWMSports because I noticed very similar conflicts involving that user. I'm just trying to understand the backstory here.

I guess I have to dig into this "The Drake is great" mess now. Man, can't that Seinfeld episode remain a happy memory for me? heh... --Jaysweet (talk) 17:54, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I was wrong on that, should have gone with a 3rd party, but initially UWMSports thought it should be there too. I just thought SportsMaster was being a pain there, but when UWM said it shouldn't stay there I backed off. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 18:05, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

SM -- Aside from the Woodling/Busbey AfDs, what other articles have you created that you feel GH has nominated for AfD in bad faith? --Jaysweet (talk) 18:09, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Waterloo Hawks all-time roster. I finally just gave up and merged it, even though all other NBA teams have an all-time roster page. It also is one thing if he nomtinated other pages for deletion, but he dosn't, only mine. Ones that were listed on my userpage.Some articles might have been stubs that he nominated, but the fact is that information was going to be added, and he was the only person who had a big enough problem with it to nominate it for deletion. --SportsMaster (talk) 19:34, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

I've nominated articles that aren't "yours". Eskimo kissing, Arden Valley Road, etc. I find it funny how you say you never called these articles yours but you do every time you report someone. Go look at User talk:GoHuskies9904. Even UWM says you don't work well with people. I'm sorry for any comments you've deemed rude, but you do frustrate the heck out of me by not working with others. I will refrain from those comments in the future, but you need to work with people!!! --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 19:43, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

Also note this [18] --SportsMaster (talk) 19:38, 29 May 2008 (UTC)

SportsMaster: Speaking from a strictly WP:CIVIL and WP:AGF point of view, I find the disparity in attitudes quite disturbing here. Regardless of the overlap in edit histories, this conversation clearly shows GoHuskies trying to make peace and explain his actions in a calm and concise manner, and Jaysweet has mentioned that GH's edits appear largely legitimate - I assume he means in keeping with WP's content policies. As such, I think that your response to the situation very much assumes bad faith on GH's part - you're basically saying that GH's only purpose on Wikipedia as a whole is to harass you by tagging articles that you've created - something he denies and which anyone can verify by looking at GH's contribution history. This puts you in a shaky position - this WQA and the way you're handling it makes you come across as asserting ownership of article content, being a tendentious editor, and/or disrupting Wikipedia to prove a point. You do not appear to be willing to consider that GH's actions may be good-faith attempts to cut down on clutter and unencyclopedic content, nor do you appear willing to work cooperatively on improving the content. Yes, it is quite possible that he acted too swiftly and knee-jerked on the tagging, but that does not mean he is automatically Wikistalking you.

I would suggest stepping back, cooling off, and trying to see this situation from someone else's point of view. In my opinion, you're getting too worked up over this issue, and it's only going to cause more friction between yourself and other editors, potentially leading to further disruptions and blocks. Thanks. — KieferSkunk (talk) — 00:33, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Thanks Kiefer. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 20:28, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

Please make not as to why he didn't want to agree to the idea Jaysweet came up with. As GoHuskies wanted to nominate more articles for deletion. Interestingly enough ones that were on my userpage and ones that I had a great deal of time in creating. Please tell me how these are not bad faith noms? [19] [20] [21] Furthermore, he did NOT nominate any of the other hundreds of high school athletic conferences in the catagory of the articles he nomintated for deletion. --SportsMaster (talk) 19:58, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

See entire AfD... Link to ALL Ohio High School athletic conferences provided! --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 20:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

To anyone who reads this, please keep in mind that Huskies did that after I wrote the message above and he undoubtably read it and then changed the nom to save himself from looking guilty.--SportsMaster (talk) 20:06, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

No it is not, look at the edit times. And I really believe that high school conferences aren't notable for wikipedia.--GoHuskies9904 (talk) 20:13, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It is, you posted ficticious time stamps. Luckily for you, I was nice enough to fix them. I figured you would do something like that, just didn't figure you would actually be foolish enough to post the lie on here. [22]

Keep in mind I posted my comment at 19:58. He made his nominations and changes, and then lied about the timestamps afterword. --SportsMaster (talk) 20:17, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Master, believe what you wish, but I'm telling you the truth. Furthermore, what are you clinging to? Ohio High School Athletic Conferences, list of conferences and schools already exist. The fact there are individual pages for each conference that say the same thing doesn't make sense. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 20:21, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It is obvious it was a blatent falsifying of timestamps. I let the evidence speak for itself. --SportsMaster (talk) 20:25, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Arbitrary section break

First, as to the matter of the falsified time stamps... The edit where GoHuskies suggested deleting all of the articles in the category occurred at 20:00 and the timestamp is accurate. SportsMaster's complaint here was posted at 19:58, so it did occur before GH's nomination of all the articles, but only just barely. It is impossible to tell whether this was made in good faith or not, so I will not comment on that.

2 minutes... I was in the process of adding other pages when SportsMaster quickly reported me. If anyone is stalking its him. Everytime I make an edit he isn't far behind. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 20:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

GH did have one edit with incorrect timestamps, however, the false timestamp used was 20:02 (it should have been 20:09) which is after SM's complaint, so there is no nefarious reason for GH to have changed the timestamp in this matter. A much simpler (and more likely) explanation, especially when one looks at the diff, is that GH was editing/copy-and-pasting a previous edit, since the formatting of the new edit was largely the same, and happened to also copy-and-paste the timestamp rather than replacing it with tildes. I don't see any attempt to deceive here.

Copy and pasting. Text is the same. I'm not vandalizing or anything of that kind. I nominate articles I don't feel are worthy of existing. But I always respect the final result. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 20:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Regarding the merit of these AfDs, I would point out that there is precdent. See the deletion log here, where in 2006 this article was deleted because (surprise!) "high school sports conferences are not notable".

So, that's the good news for GoHuskies: I see no attempt to deceive, and the nominations are reasonable.

Now, the bad news for GoHuskies: I am increasingly concerned that there is a pattern here, based on your contribs. Even if 100% of your edits are constructive, if 75% of them are in relation to deleting articles created by SportsMaster, that's going to create conflict regardless of your intentions. I would urge you once again to back off from nominating articles created by SportsMaster, as I think it would be in everyone's best interests. In this case, as you pointed out, there are dozens of articles not created by SportsMaster that have the same notability problems. I would urge you in the future to begin by nominating those articles, and then if a consensus develops, perhaps other editors will volunteer to go through and tag all of the other non-notable high school sports conferences.

Even though your edits are constructive, they are having the effect of stirring the pot in regards to this conflict, and I worry about your intentions. I'm not exactly sure what to do. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:37, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Jay, Wikipedia:Other_stuff_exists... Master cannot use that as an excuse. That has been thrown at me over issues over articles I created. Furthermore, none of these articles are his. They belong to every single user on Wikipedia. I am not deleting pages he contributed too, I am merely nominating a few that I don't think should exist. I have been in discussions on Wikipedia for quite sometime, and those who create tons of articles for the sake of padding their stats get their work more attention and more criticism. Leaving ugly stubs with no use and moving on to the next article is unencyclopedic. This has nothing to do with Master. I am a resident of that area as well and I don't think articles pertaining to that info should exist. --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 20:44, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I never claimed they were mine once again. Secondly since I did create them, those pages ARE on my watchlist, so I am NOT stalking you, stimply keeping an eye on my watchlist. I also could care less about edits stats, thats trivial to me, which is also evident since I have never once posted on my user page my edit count or anything in relation to it.--SportsMaster (talk) 20:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It's not blatant. All those pages are lists that are stubs that are already listed on the main Ohio page. No need for duplicate information. Let the voters decide and stop reporting people everytime you disagree with some one. I'm not deleting your work or anyother's work. I am leaving it up to 3rd and 4th parties to decide what to do with pages I think need to be deleted. That is all. Go vote, give your reason why they should stay and stop harassing me. If you keep reporting me, I will report you and I'm not the only user who has had issues with you. No one else has had them with me! So please, lets be civil. Did you read Kiefer's post? --GoHuskies9904 (talk) 20:39, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It was blatant. You are the person who is nominating the articles causing a severe waste of my time. I am not harassing anyone. You can stop making yourself look like the victim here and now. YOU are the person who would not agree to Jaysweets idea of you ceasing to nominate articles I created for deletion. You chose not to agree to that, even though it was suitable for me. Once again you try to make it look like I am the one who is not civil here, but saying lets be civil. I am the person who has offered to talk to you online via AIM, and IRC, both of which you are declined by not responding to. I am not acting uncivil in the least bit, if anything lieing is very uncivil, which you have already done today on this page. --SportsMaster (talk) 20:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

GH -- in regards to WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS, you misinterpret me. I am saying that, in the interests of creating peace, when you see a SportsMaster-created article that you feel is AfD-worthy and you see other articles that are in the same category and are AfD-worthy, I think everyone would be less pissed off if you nominate the other crap first. I am not saying the other articles justify the existence of SportsMaster's articles, far from it. I'm just saying that if you refocus your editorial ambitions a little bit, we might be able to close this Wikiquette alert without at all harming the project. Also, I'm not saying you have to do this or anything (not that I have the authority anyway), I'm just suggesting that it might be a way to get all this wikidrama to go away. And SportsMaster's articles won't get a free pass, don't worry about that.

SM -- It was not blatant. If GH was doing anything blatant, he'd be warned and/or sanctioned by now. I wish he would agree to the compromise I suggested, but there is no Wikipedia policy forcing him to do so, and making these wild accusations is not at all helping the issue. Both editors to respond to this Wikiquette alert (myself and KieferSkunk) have been concerned about how you are approaching this situation.

If the AfDs are really in bad faith, don't sweat it -- the nomination will result in "Keep," and if (hypothetically) this keeps happening, i.e. GH nominating an article you wrote and the discussion resulting in Keep, then that could lead to warnings and sanctions. If you are right and GH is really acting in bad faith and AfDing when he shouldn't, then time is on your side and you should be pleased. --Jaysweet (talk) 21:03, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

User:HalfShadow

Resolved

 – ...and you bring nothing to the table. seicer | talk | contribs 23:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The user left a personal attack on the talk page of another blocked user. I left a friendly note on his talk page, which was promptly deleted without explanation. I'm fully aware that the contents of talk pages can be deleted as is the wish of the user, but sensing that he might get the message if a proper warning was left, I posted a uw-npa1 warning on his page. This, too, was promptly deleted. The user then threatened to report me for harassment. Any chance of an admin dropping him a line in relation to WP:CIVILITY? Thanks. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 16:08, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

I'm allowed to delete messages to my talk page. Anyone is. You're trying to earn points for something from four days ago, and I'm not prepared to waste time on the past. Go away. HalfShadow 16:13, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Why would I be trying to earn points? It doesn't bother me either way whether another user is blocked or not; you, however, took the opportunity to attack them while they were blocked, knowing they couldn't do anything about it, and you need to learn that that isn't acceptable. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 16:17, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Except blocked people can comment (and remove comments) on their talk pages. That's two things you gotten wrong so far; care to try for a hat trick? HalfShadow

I was referring to the fact that they cannot complain about the behaviour of other users in an appropriate forum, like this. There's another thing you've misinterpreted, the first being WP:CIVILITY. Care to go for three? --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 16:34, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

Except at least two admins had posted there since and at least six overall and nobody's seen a problem with my comment. Just stop; you're only embarrassing yourself now. You're wasting seconds I could be using to do important things with. HalfShadow 16:57, 31 May 2008 (UTC)

• He is entitled to remove comments from his talk page, but there are civility issues even on this very page. I think a reminder would be enough if he can take note of it, upon which, I will close this WQA. Ncmvocalist (talk) 07:43, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Well, that didn't go down too well... --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 16:28, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Although IMO not the best course of action, he can delete anything he likes off his talk page, I suggest you wait and see if his minorly rude behaviour (excluding his talk page where he can delete what he likes) continues or stops now he's seen this thread. Restepc (talk) 16:33, 1 June 2008 (UTC) On seeing other comments, I agree with Ncmvocalist Restepc (talk) 17:03, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Agree. If it doesn't stop, then go to RFC. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:39, 1 June 2008 (UTC) Based on this, I suggest taking it straight to ANI if it continues. It's a despicable attitude. Ncmvocalist (talk) 16:45, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm done with you; both of you. HalfShadow 17:02, 1 June 2008 (UTC)

Marking as resolved because there is no instance of a personal attack at user talk:Sarah777, and a user is allowed to remove comments from his own talk page. seicer | talk | contribs 18:28, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

The user against whom the attacks were made (Sarah777) deleted the comments, here and here. The user who made the comments (HalfShadow) still hasn't accepted that he made a personal attack, and still hasn't agreed to refrain from doing so in the future. I think this comment on my own talk page reveals his attitude to all of this. --Schcambo^{aon scéal?} 18:47, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

So? A user can remove talk page comments and put any edit summary that they wish, but that doesn't make the comments that were removed personal attacks. HalfShadow hasn't accepted that it wasn't a personal attack, and as an administrator, I can't see the comment being a personal attack. A jab? Potentially. A personal attack? No. Move along. seicer | talk | contribs 23:18, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Talk:PlaneShift (video game)

Hello, on the talk page of the PlaneShift (video game) article, a URL keeps getting reinserted that I have an issue with. I very rarely edit people's comments, but my problem with the URL is that it has a link to a 6.4MB binary that is being presented as allowing users to cheat in the game. Nobody will download it because it's a binary, and in my opinion, we do not need to have such URLs in the talk namespace that have the potential to hurt people's systems. Obviously, WP:EL#AVOID would disallow it in the article namespace for the same reason. Up to now, I've been taking the liberty of removing the URL to this download page as to what WP:TALK and WP:EL#AVOID allow me to do, and I've also seeked out a second opinion on Wikipedia's offtopic IRC channel from some editors that are more established than I am before continuing to do so, yet the URL keeps getting reinserted and I fail to see why it should ever be in the talk namespace. I don't know what else I can do on the talk page without promoting incivility there; thus I now seek a third opinion to be posted on the talk page. Tuxide (talk) of WikiProject Retailing 12:33, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Just a note on this. I'm the one who put the link up there. This isn't just a 'link to a 6.4mb binary'. The link contains the full source code of what makes this binary, and comes to show a problem with the Planeshift game. As far as I'm aware of, the binary published on that site is as safe as the binaries published on the Planeshift site (and linked on wikipedia too).Sixie (talk) 13:38, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Sixie -- why is it important to you that the link appear on the Talk page? It is difficult to point to a specific policy prohibiting it (linking to a binary download is probably a good point; if the game were not GPL I would have intellectual property and copyright concerns but it looks like that probably doesn't apply here), but I just don't see a value, and I see a potential risk.

I would err on the side of removing it. Your point is made, Sixie -- the source code is out there. But Wikipedia doesn't need to link to it. The source code has no value as a reliable source because it requires interpretation, and that would be original research. --Jaysweet (talk) 17:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The link is on the discussion page because it was removed from the article page. From what I understand, The owner of that page was in the planeshift development team for about a year, and left about a month ago - The SVN logs of the planeshift project show that he wrote a good amount of code during the time he was here, and apparently was trusted by the planeshift team up until the day he left - I'd consider him more than reliable. The same issue 'Kemedes' outlines in the example is well known and was noted many times in the past years on different sources. 'Kemedes' shows a simple way to exploit it. I can provide links to different sources that confirm that problem and outline even more ways to exploit it. I wrote a section explaining issues regarding players cheating and abusing the planeshift engine (which was repeatedly deleted by the developers of that game). It would appear that a big 'cheat' in that game is found every month or so, and isn't that rare. The link provides a really simple example (The diff between the 'patched' file and the origian one is just 4-5 lines of code) and a source code to demonstrate it. I assume that the binaries are on the site to provide easy means of testing and verifying the issue (which is also an important aspect of information on wikipedia - Anyone can verify the problem). My problem with it is simple - The binaries on that page are as safe as the binaries on the planeshift site - which is also linked on wikipedia. I don't see a reason why the links to the planeshift site should remain in the article if you do decide to take down the links to the 'cheat' code. In conclusion, Not only I want that information to remain available and open to the public, I'd like to see (a version of it) appearing on the article page itself.Sixie (talk) 20:10, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

In regards to Kemedes, you say I'd consider him reliable. I mean something very precise when I say the word reliable source in regards to Wikipedia. Please see WP:RS. I think I am a very reliable person, and my wife tends to agree, but I do not qualify as a reliable source in the context of Wikipedia. heh...

This is a tough one, because while I would normally say "Please find major 3rd party coverage of the bugs," there really isn't even major 3rd party coverage of PlaneShift. The notability of the article itself seems a little questionable, now that I think about it... --Jaysweet (talk) 20:16, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I understand the issue with reliability - I'd just point that you'll have a really hard time finding a reliable source, as required by definition. The planeshift game itself isn't too notable. There aren't any new big articles regarding it - Most of the materials I find are dated back from 2005. If you'll look at the discussion page about the deletion of the article, You'd see that it's still there because of a Spanish and an Italian articles dated way back. Kemedes is as reliable as you'll get when it comes to planeshift.Sixie (talk) 20:35, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, I just got done looking through the old AfD discussion (because I was considering AfDing the article myself, ha ha ha) and yeah, that's a really tough one. I'd like to hear from other editors, because it's not clear to me what the right answer is here. I don't want to give the impression of white-washing, but at the same time I am concerned about using Kemedes' website as the sole source for a criticism. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Oh yeah, and before you say "There are other sources besides Kemedes", I'd feel even more uncomfortable using forum posts as a source... You probably know this already, but just in case. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:41, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

It's barely possible to find reliable reviews of the game, Finding criticism (or anything else beyond a simple review) is pretty much impossible unless forum posts or pages similar to Kemedes's page are acceptable.Sixie (talk) 20:55, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Thought I would mention that this is also—in my opinion—a very grave issue to even be discussing in the first place. I've seen people argue over something as grave as what kind of NPOV template should be featured on the top of Wal-Mart, to the point where both editors got blocked for violating WP:3RR over a blasted NPOV template. This is over whether a URL should appear in the talk namespace. I know I've already sided in this dispute, and I know I'm the one who brought this to WP:WQA...but maybe it's just me, I really don't get why people even bother continuing to discuss this kind of stuff. Tuxide (talk) 21:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I think Sixie has explained him/herself in that regard: He/she is concerned about whitewashing, as there is apparently a valid crticism or this game, but no source to back it up.

I am leaning towards recommending that the article be trimmmed way back to omit all of the game-related info (Wikipedia is not a strategy guide or game faq) and just state that it exists, what it is, etc., i.e. information that is verifiable from the 3rd party sources. --Jaysweet (talk) 21:34, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

OK I think I see what you mean, yet I'm still trying to decide how to treat it. The game isn't even out of alpha, yet people are playing it now. So do we treat it as something like Half-Life 2: Episode 3 which nobody has played yet (Half-Life 2 is a featured article that has been on Main Page), or something like GLTron (and I know it's not a good article either) which people are playing? I've been leaving it alone because I believe this is WikiProject material. Another thing is that most of the good secondary sources I've seen would fail WP:EL because they're not in English and I have no idea what they say. Also, it would be hard to insert criticism because nobody has written a review on the game, although I have a feeling this won't be the case in the near future which is also why I've been leaving it alone. Tuxide (talk) 22:47, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Would you agree, just from your own experience, that a criticism on the source code quality, and amount of critical bugs that exist and are exploitable by 'players' (and not 'testers') is a valid criticism?Sixie (talk) 05:13, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

First off, I have been playing the game for almost six years now. As a player, I would probably say that I've seen worse; progressionmanager.cpp (which handles spells) is buggy as hell, but I can understand what the source does. As a research assistant in AI, I would probably say the quality of the code is just someone's opinion, and I would probably make the claim that I could fix this myself if I had the time I needed. I would also say they lack proper unit testing facilities, but I don't know how one would unit test in Crystal Space.

Second off, I have also been a Wikipedia editor for almost three years, and I cannot make those same claims here in the article namespace and say it passes WP:V, because it is just my opinion. I would need a reliable third party source, like a good news website or magazine. For example, I have seen several companies interested in PlaneShift's source recently, but I have yet to see a single testimony from one of them. One of those companies was IBM. Back then, they were only interested in this game and Second Life, and IBM chose to go with the latter.

I will also say that one thing I have learned from Wikipedia is how to define civility. I am saying this because it seems that many people who come from PlaneShift have absolutely no idea what civility is, and this is really pissing me off. Regards, Tuxide (talk) of WikiProject Retailing 06:17, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Wouldn't planeshift's bugtracker be a verifiable 3rd party source?Sixie (talk) 15:27, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

No, it's not even a 3rd party source to begin with. Tuxide (talk) 23:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

buddhism issue

a number of editors ( 4 or 5, I think, including myself ) have been making changes on the Buddhism page. one editor, who edits under both LuisGomez111 and Pasta4470, has been both consistently rude and disruptive. point by point:

• he refuses to use the talk page (despite repeated requests) before making large changes that disrupt the discussed work the other editors have made
• when he does use the talk page, he presents his work as unambiguously correct, and insults editors who disagree or revert his changes
• he is consistently rude, and makes frequent threats of the "I'll report you to the administrators" or "I'm going to make this change even if you don't agree, so you'd better agree" variety

see Talk:Buddhism#Intro_Revertsthis talk page post, and this, and this latest one, as well as others on the page...

I'm trying to reason with him, but I don't seem to be getting through. can someone assist? --Ludwigs2 (talk) 18:54, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

User:LuisGomez111 response

There are two editors on this article whose behavior I find disruptive: User:Ludwigs2 and User:Peter jackson. (I have a sneaking suspicion that Ludwigs2 is a sock puppet for Peter jackson.) Here are my complaints:

They attempt to control the article's content through reverts and large deletions. They challenge the most basic and widely accepted information on Buddhism. They seem much more interested in nitpicking and writing lengthy, critical comments on the talk page than in contributing to the article in a meaningful way. Please do something about this. LuisGomez111 (talk) 19:26, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Luis, if you think I'm a sock puppet, then please report me to the admins. I will happily do whatever is necessary to assure you (and them) that I am just me.

I'll also add that I rewrote the entire intro, and have been making consistent changes to the page, so you can hardly say that I am 'nitpicking' and not making contributions to the page.

I don't want to get in an argument about who is doing more deleting or who is trying to control the page (because that would be pointless accusation-slinging). I simply want the page to have some stability, and a peaceful, communicative environment where we can continue to improve it. what do we need to do to achieve that? --Ludwigs2 (talk) 20:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Peter jackson response to response

The suggestion that Ludwigs is a sockpuppet of mine seems quite far-fetched. If Luis would bother to read the talk page he'd see that Ludwigs & I have been arguing with each other quite extensively.

Examination of the history will show that I've done very little reverting & deletion in the current dispute.

Yes, I "challenge the most basic and widely accepted information on Buddhism", because the reliable sources I cite show it's wrong or questionable. Everyone who's been working on WP for any length of time should have noticed that "widely accepted information" is often wrong. Peter jackson (talk) 10:44, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Thomasalazar

Thomasalazar (talk · contribs) is removing tags without the tag task being completed. I asked him nicely to cite sources, and he just reverts the tags and blanks his user page to all comments by me and other users.

• I tagged 2008 New Mexico Congressional Election, District 3 here.
• He removed the tag here.
• I re-tagged here.
• I warned him here.
• He deleted the warning here.
• User IP4240207xx warned him here.
• Thomasalazar deletes the warning here.
• User:IP4240207xx tells him about tag here.
• Salazar deletes warning here.
• User HoundDog23 tells him about Wikiquette here.
• Salazar deletes notice here here.
• He removed the tag, from 2008 New Mexico Congressional Election, District 3, again today here without citing sources.

I feel that if I re-tag the article, he will just revert again. I know that he is young, maybe 18, but he is in his own world, and doesn't want to play by any rules. I am going to add the tags back, but wanted to complete this first.

~ WikiDon (talk) 20:40, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I left a note on his talk page, suggesting that he start the talk page and open a discussion. --Ludwigs2 (talk) 20:57, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I left a note on Talk:2008 New Mexico Congressional Election, District 3 about references and tags. ~ WikiDon (talk) 21:12, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

The user is free to delete warnings if they want (see WP:DRC), but the tags in question are indisputable. It's one thing if a user removes an "npov" tag, or if they remove an "unreferenced" tag from an article with only a couple of references -- but removing an "upcoming election" tag from an upcoming election, or removing an "unreferenced" tag from an article with zero references, I would consider that pure vandalism and would treat it as such. Revert, warn, and if it goes past final warning, report to WP:AIV. --Jaysweet (talk) 21:31, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

I left a courtesy notice on his talk page that he was being discussed here. ~ WikiDon (talk) 22:18, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

Problems in "translation"

I'm having difficulty discussing content issues with Nishidani, who is too interested in picking my grammar apart than the issues of concern. I recently requested him to stop and even suggested an alternative outlet but he noted his refusal. I would appreciate some external notice/comments to this issue since I am incapable of persuading him myself that his activity in this area is uncivil and offensive.
The thread: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Nishidani#English_woes
With respect, Jaakobou^{Chalk Talk} 12:31, 3 June 2008 (UTC) clarify 12:32, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Note that Jaakobou has not yet had the courtesy to notify Nishidani of this complaint. NSH001 (talk) 22:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

• Please provide links (diffs) to his "activity in this area". Ncmvocalist (talk) 12:41, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

User:Xasha

Not a Wikiquette issue, referred elsewhere

 – Being dealt with at WP:ANI

This user, recently warned and then blocked for making offensive remarks against me, has resumed his attacks. Here, here, here, here, here and here he goads and prods me, insinuating dark motives on my part. Let me elaborate: I noted at Template:Romanian historical regions that certain regions were part of Romania in 1941-44, which in fact they were. Now, how exactly the template should be constructed is open to interpretation. What is, however, completely unacceptable is that Xasha, despite his recent block and warning, and despite my pointing out to him repeatedly that he is violating AGF, CIV and NPA, accuses me of "trying to legitimize Operation Barbarossa" - the Nazi German invasion of the USSR, in which Romania's fascist wartime regime also took part. Obviously these are very serious, but also entirely baseless charges. I have asked Xasha to withdraw the charge, to comment on content rather than on the editor, to stop attempting to smear my good name, but all to no avail. It is not up to him to air his "impression" and "supposition" that I am "trying to legitimize Operation Barbarossa", but if I can't convince him of that through discussion, then it only remains to me to seek a more formal means of clearing my name. Biruitorul ^Talk 19:38, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

OK, just note that your implications that I accused you of fascism or rehabilitation (?) are just the result of your gross failure to assume good faith. As for historical revisionism, your comment about Moldova's statality leaves no other interpretations.Xasha (talk) 19:52, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Please don't obscure the issue, don't "interpret" my edits in sinister ways, and things will be fine. Again: unacceptable to say that I am "trying to legitimize Operation Barbarossa", a charge that very clearly implies I am trying to put fascism and Ion Antonescu in a favourable light. Or, if it doesn't imply that (which I'm sure it does), then the best solution is always silence - not coming up with your own "impressions" and "suppositions" regarding my motives. Biruitorul ^Talk 20:09, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Actually, I was mistaken. It's not you who is trying to do it, it's the version of that template you created who does it. When a version edited by you is seriously flawed and biased, is my right to bring it to the community's attention.Xasha (talk) 20:14, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You show you're racist. That's all that counts here. ClaudiuLine (talk) 20:16, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

When will be Xasha blocked? ClaudiuLine (talk) 19:53, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

When Wikipedia will become 100% User:Bonaparte socks proof.Xasha (talk) 20:04, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

You will be blocked soon because of your racist comments and personal attacks. ClaudiuLine (talk) 20:06, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I'm not touching this one with a ten-foot pole -- but for whoever does, this arbitration case is relevant. Basically, Xasha is one of a number of editors who is on a very short leash on any articles relating to Eastern Europe... --Jaysweet (talk) 20:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

My recommendation: do read the links provided by Biruitorul.Xasha (talk) 20:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Xasha&diff=215635466&oldid=215284111 --ClaudiuLine (talk) 20:39, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Since this has already been escalated to WP:ANI and involves past arbitration rulings, there's nothing that can be done about it here. Please don't forum shop. --Jaysweet (talk) 20:42, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Talk:Master of Orion

I would like suggestions or assistance in dealing with posts like this - playing games and teasing do not help build a page. I am hardly an innocent here. WLU (talk) 22:55, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

And I would like suggestions or assistance in dealing with WLU, who insists on re-writing Master of Orion despite by his own admission never having played the game (bottom of Talk:Master of Orion#Replaced_re-write and, as a result, having already misrepresented several aspects of the game in ways that would mislead the inexperienced and arouse the disdain of the experienced. Note that before WLU started this thread I had already pointed to Talk pages that provided models for collaboration between someone who initially knows the subject well and someone who is initially unfamiliar with the subject - one of which was a GA review that passed.

To put the situation in perspective, what do you think would happen if someone tried to edit a science article in a subject of which they knew nothing? Philcha (talk) 23:34, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Both of you please keep in mind that there's no use squabbling about which editor is more knowledgeable than which other editor on any given subject. We don't do that here, because it's not relevant. the standard by which contributions are evaluated on Wikipedia is not truth, but verifiability, and there are clear criteria for what is and isn't a reliable source of information. As frustrating as it can be sometimes, what you or I or anyone else knows (or thinks he knows, or says he knows, or seems to recall hearing some time back) is not relevant. It's what we can prove that matters.

Philcha, to answer your question, nonscientists edit science-related articles every day here on Wikipedia. We don't require editors to have particular credentials in the subject of an article. The same goes for this game-related article. There is room for editors with many different levels of direct knowledge about the subject of the article they're working on. To give an obvious example, I needn't know much about plumbing to make grammatical corrections, fix links, add photos, rework article markup for better flow, and — this is the important part — add text as long as all my assertions are properly supported with adequate references. This is a self-regulating system and it largely works. I think you both know this; it's obvious you're both rather familiar with Wikipedia policies and protocols in general. You've both gone beyond acting in the best interest of the article, and are veering into territory of attacking and deriding each other per se. It looks to me as if you two have a power struggle verging on a tug-o'-war for de facto ownership of the article. Please, both of you step back from the article, have a nice cup of tea and a sit-down, spend a week (yes, a whole week) doing something other than editing Master of Orion or Talk:Master of Orion, and realise that the article will be much better if you both take a genuinely coöperative rather than a combative, competitive approach. —Scheinwerfermann (talk) 23:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)