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November 10

Software to analyse word usage

Hello. I'm sure there is a small app somewhere that will take a Word document and show how many times all the words occur. Anyone know where I can find it/one of these? Just to be clear for those of you who like to jump in immediately to these things without thinking, I don't mean a word-count, I mean a list of the incidence of all the words. Thanks FreeMorpheme (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 01:36, 10 November 2008 (UTC).

Someone else will point you in the direction of software for such a purpose, including concordancer software (see also here, for the use of such things in linguistic research). But if you want to find how many times just one item occurs in a Word document, search and replace the item (CONTROL-H is the best shortcut): replace it with itself, and Word will report to you how many times this was done.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 02:40, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

If the doc is fairly small, and you have MS Excel, you could do something like the following:

1. copy the doc to a new file
2. search-replace all whitespace with a paragraph mark
3. convert text to table (one column, call it EnglishWord)
4. copy-paste the table to a new Excel spreadsheet
5. sort the spreadsheet
6. use the Data>Subtotals option: at each change in EnglishWord, use function Count

If the doc is big some of these steps might require too much memory. jnestorius^(talk) 18:58, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

• http://www.autocrit.com also has a incidence calculator for the most common words in the text, but I haven't checked if it is still free (it is dependent on the text size). - Mgm|^(talk) 20:39, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

This software [1] may be what you are seeking. I have never use it, but it is the one used to create the lexical statistics of Jean_Henri_Fabre's Souvenirs entomologiques here. The software operates on raw text files or HTML files; you can convert a Word document using "save as" and selecting the appropriate format. AldoSyrt (talk) 17:08, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Translation into English of letters written by Antoine Gaubil

Can any user please tell me whether any of the letters written in French by Antoine Gaubil, which appear in "Correspondance de Pekin, 1722-1759", have been translated into English, and if so, where can such an English translation be found? Thank you Simonschaim (talk) 11:28, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

November 11

Querer

why does Querer mean "to try" in the past tense?Buckmyfutt (talk)

From (http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/querer) - it is from latin quaerere (seek, look for, desire). 194.221.133.226 (talk) 16:34, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what you saw... What language are you talking about? There are three of them on that list, Galician, Portuguese, and Spanish. --Falconus^{p t c} 20:32, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Commonly in Spanish classes, students are taught that querer in the preterit is translated as "tried." Personally, I hate when it's explained like that, because it only leads to confusion like what the OP is experiencing. So, to set the record straight, querer never means "try"; Spanish has other words for that (e.g. tratar (de), intentar). However, since the preterit tense represents non-repetitive actions in the past, figuratively translating querer in the preterit (quise, quisiste, etc.) as "tried" is acceptable. In English, consider "I wanted to show off and bench 300 pounds, but it was too heavy." Couldn't you substitute the word wanted in that sentence with tried and it would have the same meaning? This is what leads to that Spanish translation of querer. It's supposed to give students an idea of the difference between imperfect and preterit, but I don't like it taught that way because the translation pret. querer --> "tried" doesn't always work, and above all, is more confusing than informative.--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 02:26, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

use of word "squat" as in "squatted by the homeless"

I am doing a GA review on the article Skinner's Room. The editor has used the sentence: "In the story, the Bridge is overrun and squatted by the homeless...". I know what he means, but does not the word "squat" need a preposition, like "squatted on"? Or is this an accepted way to use the word "squatted", as in "My property was squatted by me."? Thanks, —Mattisse (Talk) 16:20, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I'd try to rephrase the sentence to use either the agentive noun "squatter" or the verbal noun "squatting" rather than the verb "squat". In this particular meaning, the verb is really a back formation from those two nouns. —Angr 16:29, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you very much. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 19:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

The big dictionaries list "squat" in the sense of lingering on a piece of property illegally as a verb and they use prepositions: i.e. That homeless guy will probably squat in the abandoned store. I would rather not use squat in its verb form if I could call the subjects "squatters" instead. 152.16.15.23 (talk) 19:09, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

"...the Bridge is overrun by squatters" avoids duplication because a squatter is homeless/a homeless person. Julia Rossi (talk) 21:47, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Au contraire, squatters, if successful, have found themselves a home! There are some very long-term squatters in London and other towns and cities in the UK, as evidenced by this article. I have seen TV news reports before now showing that squatters can lead pretty normal lives, save their domestic circumatances.GBViews (talk) 22:16, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Squat is also used as a noun, meaning a place occupied by squatters. So "The building was squatted" could derive from "the building was used as a squat."

http://encarta.msn.com/dictionary_/squat.html

CBHA (talk) 02:07, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

While rightly using the sense of taking over unofficially, perhaps inadvertently emphasises the lack of normal toilets as well? Another travelling verb/neologism... Julia Rossi (talk) 09:44, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Latin help

I need a title meaning "British history" but is must include the word "Britannicum" (NOT britannica, britanniae)! Thanks! --217.227.81.97 (talk) 17:53, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Latin was 8 years ago, but I think you want "history" in the accusative (or is it nominative?) declension followed by british in the genetive declension. 152.16.15.23 (talk) 19:03, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Nominative and Genitive are cases, not declensions... AnonMoos (talk) 20:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that you could do it three ways. "History of the Britons" ("Historia Britannorum"), "History of Britain" ("Historia Britannia") or "British History" ("Historia Britannica"). --Falconus^{p t c} 20:18, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

History of Britain should be Historia Britanniae... AnonMoos (talk) 20:37, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

If you absolutely need "Britannicum" you could use "Chronica Britannicum" ("chronica" looks feminine but it is a Greek neuter). Adam Bishop (talk) 20:25, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

It's all Greek to me! But seriously, how to you mean Greek? Is your version (the best so far) still Latin? --217.227.83.122 (talk) 20:39, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

I mean it was borrowed from Greek, and used as a regular Latin word. I don't know Greek very well but it may be plural and the singular may be chronicon, which was also borrowed in Latin and was sometimes Latinized as chronicum. I'm pretty sure they're all neuter though. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:02, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

If "chronica" is neuter plural, then it would be "Chronica Britannica". Few neuters end in "-a" in the nominative/accusative singular, other than those ending in "-ma" (stem "-mat-"). AnonMoos (talk) 06:44, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Then I suppose in Latin it was sometimes assumed to be a (Latin) neuter plural, as in the Chronica Maiora. Adam Bishop (talk) 08:52, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I also should point out that the way Latin works, "Britannicum" is the same word as "Britannica" and "Britannicus". Because "Historia" is feminine, you must make it agree since it is an adjective, and therefore must use the "a" ending. In English we have to make our nouns and adjectives agree in number only (you can't say "I have three dog"), in Latin you have to make them agree in number, gender and case. --Falconus^{p t c} 20:27, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

Is Chronica Regnum Britannicum correct too then? --217.227.80.215 (talk) 18:36, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

No -- that's two separate phrases (Chronica == "chronicles", Regnum Britannicum == "the British kingdom") sitting side by side with no relationship between the two indicated (since both are in the nominative or accusative case, and apposition would not be meaningful). To indicate a relationship, Regnum Britannicum would have to be in some other case (e.g. Historia Regni Britannici, genitive case). It might be possible to use a preposition governing the accusative (Historia ob Regnum Britannicum, whatever that would mean, etc.), but it would be rather awkward. AnonMoos (talk) 20:12, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

To revert to the original question, could you please explain why it has to be Britannicum rather than something more natural such as Britannica, Britanniae etc? This might help to find an answer to your question. Maid Marion (talk) 15:58, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

November 12

are any words a pair (like the article a/an) but with the form chosen for whether a vowel or consonant sound PRECEDES it?

Resolved

When we say a [something], the a changes to an before a vowel sound. A lot of languages do something like that, if only out loud (liaison in French, e and ed in Italian, etc).

Does the same thing ever happen (in any language), where a pair of forms (or pronunciations) exist for a word, but the correct one is chosen based on whether a vowel or consonant sound PRECEDES the word??

I'm looking for something like:

“ The choice of the form specially or especially depends on whether a vowel sound or consonant sound precedes the word: the form will be especially after a consonant but specially after a vowel. For example "it is especially difficult...; it will be specially difficult... ”

Obviously this example isn't true: are there any examples that are? Thank you!

In French, the hyphenated inverted form of a verb and a pronoun subject (as in one form of question, among other uses) has the element -t- inserted if the verb ends with a vowel and the pronoun begins with one. Thus "il dit" becomes "dit-il" but "il a" becomes "a-t-il". However, this is not a pure example because, as I said, it only happens when the pronoun also begins with a vowel. --Anonymous, 18:54 UTC, November 12, 2008.

What makes you think it is an example at all, and that a-t-il should not be understood as making a t liason from the a? In fact, the French do this all the time, I've heard them make a z liaison with the p of trop. This is treated under Errors of liaison and has a name. If you scroll up a little, you'll see though that the t has been inserted by analogy with a lot of words that really do end in t, like dort-il. So it clearly should not be read as a till, since it wasn't dort til. Could you think of any other examples? 83.199.126.76 (talk) 19:40, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The definite article in Welsh is ’r (IPA: [r]) after a vowel and y (IPA: [ə]) or yr (IPA: [ər]) after a consonant (y between two consonants and yr between a consonant and a vowel). So the form depends on the preceding sound, but if the preceding sound is a consonant the form also depends on the following sound. —Angr 19:34, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

I will analyze this example if there aren't any better candidates, but I would prefer something much simpler. We have more examples in English than a/an: a lot of people (including myself) exclusively say the as [thē] (the same as emphasizing the word, or saying thee) before a vowel: the event as [thē] event and not [thə] event. Going back to French, they don't only make Liaisons: they have entire word forms, such as the masculine "cet" that exist solely to come into play before a vowel. Another language I know, that isn't even indo-European, has a simple article change like a/an, but for the definite article. So I'd like to find a simple example of something that is only affected by the preceding sound, not both the preceding and following one. From a hasty analysis of your example, it looks like the definite article could be acting a bit similarly to the t in the French a-t-il, sounding in a way analogous to a liaison, even if not recorded that way. The written form of ’r before a vowel reminds me of English "I'd like to see 'er try that!" "I'd love to try 'em out". But because of the ', I'm dubious.... Though maybe the answer to finding an example is to look at the vernacular (in English), and the best example will be a suppression like 'em. I wonder if 'em comes statistically way more often (in registers in which it occurs) after a vowel?

I assume you're talking about Hungarian a(z). The 'r of Welsh isn't vernacular and isn't optional; it's used in written Welsh too. (Incidentally, words starting with h count as vowel-initial.) Some concrete examples from Welsh, if you want them: tŷ'r meddyg "the doctor's house"; tŷ'r athro "the teacher's house"; car y meddyg "the doctor's car"; car yr athro "the teacher's car". —Angr 21:48, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

Holy ****, how did you know I was thinking of Hungarian a(z)? Your examples have made it clear that you meant the 'r as a contraction, which I didn't realize. Maybe it's ultimately as far as I will get, but it's not really what I was looking for. But do I have it right that it is etymologically a contraction (even if today mandatory) and that the apostrophe stands for a suppressed y? In this case it is very close to what spoken Italians do, who blend the end of vowel sounds into the beginning of the next one -- there will be only one vowel where the two meet. It's an interesting effect in that case, but not exactly the different form I was looking for.

Yes, the 'r is a contraction of yr, but even so the sound of the preceding word determines the form that's picked: tŷ yr meddyg (→ tŷ'r meddyg) but car y meddyg. —Angr 10:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you! Put in that way, your pair of sentences (car y meddyg / tŷ yr meddyg), are a perfect illustration of the effect I was looking for. Thank you. I'm marking this question resolved.

In Haitian Creole, there are five singular definite articles: a, la, an, nan, lan. They all are placed after the word they modify. There is no gender in Haitian Creole, and the choice of article depends solely on the last sound of the noun. For example, a occurs after non-nasalized vowels: drapo a "the flag" peyi a "the country." La is used after non-nasal consonants: pòt la "the door" bèt la "the animal." An is used after nasalized vowels: Pen an ([pɛ̃ ɑ̃]) "the bread" Dan an "the tooth." Nan is used after nasal consonants: plim nan "the pen" machin nan ([mɑʃin nɑ̃]) "the car." Lan is used if a nasal vowel is "close" to the end: lanp lan "the lamp."--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 02:39, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Depending on what kind of examples you'd allow, you can also see examples in languages with vowel harmony, where the pronounciation of, e.g., case endings depends on the preceding vowels in the word (thus in Finnish Turku -> Turussa, but Helsinki -> Helsingissä). Baranxtu (talk) 14:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

DMZ우유 -- are there cows in the DMZ?

I know 우유 (u-yu) is Korean for milk, and in the context of Korea, DMZ stands for Demilitarized Zone. So what on earth is 서울우유 (Seoul Milk) doing with a product called DMZ우유? Feel free to move this to misc if it's more appropriate. --Taejo|대조 22:46, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

The full name appears to be 철원청정지역 DMZ우유 ; 철원(군) is a county in the 강원(도) province Cheorwon right near the border with North Korea. One webpage says that this milk is "pure, from the unblemished natural region of 철원". So I guess it really is from right near the DMZ, and that they are advertising it that way since there is a (I think true) perception that that region is relatively undeveloped and 'natural'.--71.58.71.191 (talk) 23:48, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Undeveloped and natural, yet full of soldiers, armament, and land mines? Is it good for the cows or something?--ChokinBako (talk) 04:16, 18 November 2008 (UTC)

I think 철원 is a relatively isolated county. There are land mines in the actual DMZ, but it seems the cows graze in fields near the border not on the actual border. I'd imagine there aren't many soldiers stationed in this county, but I can't confirm that. Here is a quote from our Wikipedia DMZ article: "Except in the area around the truce village of Panmunjeom and more recently on the Donghae Bukbu Line on the east coast, humans have not entered the DMZ in the last fifty years. This isolation has created one of the most well-preserved pieces of temperate land in the world. Environmentalists hope that if reunification occurs the former DMZ will become a wildlife refuge. However, there will be significant obstacles to maintaining the site because of the high concentration of landmines across the area."--71.58.71.191 (talk) 21:00, 19 November 2008 (UTC)

BUSINESS LETTER

I'm trying to write a business letter could you help me for grammer and business like and courteous letter as soon as possible the following is what I wrote please help me check the grammer:

Over the last months Jobss has conducted research and notice that what is different now is that a larger number of workers than normal have affected by more rapid change. These workers come from all different classes; even those classes witch in the old days seemed immune to the changes affecting everyone else, particular white collar workers and upper management. It’s very difficult in Canada as almost one million people are laid off annually which means more than 43 million jobs have been erased since 1999. This is beyond normal. In fact 7 out of 10 households know a relative, friend or neighbor who was laid off and 1 out of every three households has had a family member laid off. (Maryambb2001 (talk) 22:49, 12 November 2008 (UTC))

Aside from grammar issues, you may want to look at spelling (witch, Jobss), and also consider the purpose of the letter. I.e., who is it going to and what is it intended to accomplish. Also the calculation that "almost one million people are laid off annually which means more than 43 million jobs have been erased since 1999" doesn't work out mathematically. Good luck. CBHA (talk) 23:27, 12 November 2008 (UTC)

November 13

Japanese Calligraphy

How would you write "There is a badger in my beard" using Kanji? Black Carrot (talk) 00:21, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

私の髭に狸がいます。--ChokinBako (talk) 01:31, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Those translate to [I] [possession] [beard] [indirect object] [badger] [subject] [is (polite form)] [period], right? Why doesn't the subject come before the object? Also, should there be some kind of preposition, to indicate the relation between the badger and the beard? Black Carrot (talk) 07:39, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

There's no object. に means "at", "in".--K.C. Tang (talk) 07:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Isn't it [subject: 私の髭] [preposition: に] [object: 狸] [particle: が] [verb:　います。]? Louis Waweru  Talk  09:25, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

狸 is the subject. 私の髭に is the predicate, merely saying where the badger is.--ChokinBako (talk) 09:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I see now, thanks. Louis Waweru  Talk  10:21, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I feel I should point out that badgers and tanukis are not the same animal (they're not even in the same family). Maybe you really wanted a tanuki, but if not, badger is アナグマ (穴熊). Also, while I don't think the requested 100% kanji is attainable in modern Japanese, we should be able to do better than the 33% of ChokinBako's translation. Perhaps 我が顎鬚に穴熊有り? It's a bit formal, but that seems well suited to the gravity of this pronouncement. I'm not fluent, so you should probably wait for an okay from a native speaker before you get this tattooed on your arm (which I assume is what you intend to do). -- BenRG (talk) 13:23, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Aye, well, I translated 'badger' as tanuki because badgers and racoons are not much different, especially to someone who has only seen them as roadkill.--ChokinBako (talk) 14:04, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If it comes to that, tanukis aren't raccoons, either. Per Japanese Raccoon Dog: "Its Japanese name [tanuki] is also sometimes translated as 'badger' and often mistakenly translated into English as 'raccoon'." —Angr 14:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Here is another article. Raccoon Dog. Oda Mari (talk) 14:43, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think 有り can be used in this context. 私の顎髭に穴熊が居る。But most of the time 居る is written in hiragana, いる. As for 'my', there are choices: 我の,我が輩の,僕の,俺の,小生の, and 余の. Oda Mari (talk) 15:52, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

「有り」would be perfectly OK if taken in a Classical Japanese context, not modern Japanese.--ChokinBako (talk) 19:03, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

While I'm sorting through that, can someone recommend an online Kanji dictionary? The hiragana is no problem, but I'm not sure how to look up some of the other symbols. Black Carrot (talk) 21:27, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

You are right about the usage of 有る in classical Japanese, Chokinbako. And to other editors, sorry for my mistake. Oda Mari (talk) 17:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

minimal pairs?

in a phonological analysis for the words [mezi] and [mazI], would the e and a be considered different phonemes because they both occur in the same environment (m_z)? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.151.132.11 (talk) 02:36, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This is a nonsense question. 'E' and 'a' are considered separate phonemes simply because they ARE separate phonemes, regardless of their environments.--ChokinBako (talk) 02:43, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This sounds like a homework question.... I think the OP is possibly referring to a hypothetical language. I don't know what the different is between lowercase i and uppercase I in the transcription. As for the environments, they're not necessarily the same if /i/ ≠ /I/.--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 02:53, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

well, this is related to a homework question, I'm trying to figure out whether [e] and [a] are minimal pairs of each other or allophones. the immidiate environment is the same for both , the difference only kicks in on the letter after [i] vs [ı]. so should we consider [a] and [e] allophones? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 142.151.132.11 (talk) 03:22, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

There isn't enough data to decide. It's possible this language has vowel harmony relating to advanced tongue root, but with only one pair of words in the data set, that can't be determined. —Angr 10:41, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

If you already know that [i] and [I] are allophones of the same phoneme, and that [mezi] and [mazI] are different words, then they are minimal pairs. Otherwise, you can't tell. jnestorius^(talk) 13:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This all, of course, assumes that the two words are separate lexical items. Steewi (talk) 00:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Given enough information, another possibility is that the two are near minimal pairs, which I've seen some linguists give when it's obvious that two sounds are contrastive but one or the other is so rare that a minimal pair just doesn't exist. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 02:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

English to Spanish Translation

Okay so I created a dialogue between three people needing to meet some requirements of my teacher, and I attempted to translate it. Could you guys please help me fine tune this because I know I made some simple mistakes. I'd really appreciate it, thanks guys!

SS1: Cinderella! Where are you?

SS1: Cenicienta! ¿De dónde estás?
C: I am in the living room, shaking the rugs.
C: Estoy en la sala, sacudo las alfombras.
SS2: Well come to my room right now! I need you to clean it.
SS2: Bien vienes a mi cuarto ahora mismo! Te necesito para limpiarlo.
C: But I am very busy!
C: Pero estoy ocupadísimo!
SS2: Too bad! You have to hang up my clothes, dust, and vacuum.
SS2: Que Lástima! Tienes que colgar mi ropa, quita el polvo y pasa la aspiradora.
C: You are so lazy.
C: Eres tan perezosa.
SS2: I demand an apology.
SS2: Exijo una disculpa.
C: Ugh. I’m sorry.
C: Ugh. Lo siento.
SS1: Enough! You have to scrub the chamber pot also!
SS1: ¡Basta! Tienes que fregar la cámara tambié!
SS2: Yeah! I forbid you to enjoy yourself.
SS2: ¡Sí! Me prohíben a divertirte.
C: This is ridiculous and is not fair!
C: Esto es ridículo y no es justo!
SS1: I suggest you start immediately. You have a lot of chores.
SS1: Le sugiero que comienzas inmediatamente. Tienes muchos quehaceres.
SS2: Yes, and we have to get ready for the dance.
SS2: Sí, y tenemos que alistarnos para el baile.
C: Dance? I didn’t know there was a dance.
C: Baile? No sabía era un baile.
SS1: That is because no one invited you.
SS1: Eso es porque nadie invita a ti.
SS2: And it’s better if you stay home.
SS2: Y es mejor si quedarte en casa.
C: But I want to go, I even have a pretty dress!
C: Pero quiero ir, tengo un vestido bonito!
SS1: I just remembered, you have to feed the dog, too.
SS1: acabo de recordar, tienes que darle de comer al perro, también.
SS2: And take it for a walk.
SS2: Y lo sacas a paseo.
SS1: Cinderella, please don’t forget to make my bed.
SS1: Cenicienta, por favor no se olvide de tender mi cama.
SS2: And to peel the potatoes for dinner tonight!
SS2: Y pela las papas para la cena de esta noche!
C: Ay ay ay! What an ugly joke…
C: Ay ay ay! Que un feo chiste...
SS1: I’m sorry Cinderella, but we are being serious. The lawnmower is broken too so you need to fix it.
SS1: Lo siento Cenicienta, pero estamos serios. La cortadora de césped está roto demasiado y necesita arreglarlo.
SS2: Did we tell her she has to water the garden with the new hose?
SS2: ¿Dile que tiene que regar el jardín con la manguera nuevo?
SS1: No, I forgot.
SS1: No, me olvidé.
C: What, do I need to plant some trees in the garden too?
C: ¿Qué, debo plantar algunos árboles en el jardín también?
SS1: That is a good idea! Yes, yes!
SS1: Es una buena idea! Sí, sí!
C: But I was joking!
C: Pero yo estaba bromeando!
SS2: Did you empty the cesto?
SS2: ¿Te vaciar el cesto?
C: Yes, last night. I still need to recoger the dirty dishes and wash them, but you can clean your own room.
C: Sí, anoche. Necesito recoger los platos sucios y lavarlos, pero puedes limpiar su propio cuarto.
SS1: Cinderella we are tired of always taking care of you, you need to learn some responsibility.
SS1: Cenicienta estamos cansados de siempre cuidamos a ti, necesitas aprender alguna responsabilidad.

I know I have many puncuation errors, capitalization errors, etc., but they are not important and you can just ignore them. I just want to make sure I translated it as accurately as possible. Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.117.39.92 (talk) 07:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

This is quite long. I don't have time to edit it, I doubt that other Ref Desk editors will have time, and in any case, helping people complete their homework is outside of Ref Desk guidelines. We are happy to help if you have a specific question, for example about something you don't understand from your assignment, but we can't help you complete the assignment. I've noticed several errors just looking over your translation, but you are clearly at a stage where you are meant to learn from your teacher's corrections. So that you do not start out with an error, I will just point out that you translated the first line "Cenicienta! ¿De dónde estás?" This means "Cinderella! Where are you from?" or "Cinderella! Where do you come from?". "Where are you?" would be simply "¿Dónde estás?". Marco polo (talk) 21:45, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh, wow. Thanks Marco polo! I didn't realize how long it was until I posted it, but this is mainly due to the way I tried to make it easier for you guys by putting a line in English, and showing my Spanish translation beneath it. And I understand fully well that Wikipedia discourages its reference desk editors from doing someone else's homework, but I figured since I tried it already to the best of my ability that counted as me doing my own homework. You guys would just fine tune it =]. But thank you again for the change right away, and if anyone does find time just to skim through it and make a few corrections I'd really appreciate it. --71.98.0.132 (talk) 04:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

My Spanish is way from anywhere good, but my suggestion would be to look at whatever Grammar book came with class material and look at verb-forms (If you do have the time, scoot over to your library and see if they have a book on that. There are some that have lists of common verbs and their forms.) Then look at what function the verb you are using in English has and see what the equivalent would be in Spanish. "I shake" is not the same as "I'm shaking". Some verbs have the same form in English but serve a different function: "I come", "you come" is a regular activity, "Come here!" is an instruction. Are the Spanish forms the same for both functions for this verb? You won't be able to find all the fine variations, but should find a few things you can improve. As Marco said this is a learning exercise not a "I have to get it perfect for max points" type of task. BTW: What makes such tasks so difficult for students is that you devise the dialog in your native language and then translate. If such task comes up again, an easier way is to look at what vocabulary and situations you have dealt with in class already and concoct a conversation from those.76.97.245.5 (talk) 06:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

You made simple mistakes because that's the stage you're at – learning. Just say we fixed it for you, then you're giving a false impression you might have to repeat later, and I can't see us fixing stuff for you over and over. ¿Entienda? (and that could be wrong – I have no idea) Julia Rossi (talk) 07:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

J→E: 感動の定期演奏会バトル

I'm having trouble with 定期. I was looking at 演奏会#定期演奏会 and I didn't really understand that either. Can someone please take a look and explain, or translate, that section for me? Thank you. Louis Waweru  Talk  08:10, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I looked up 定期 in my dictionary, and the first hit was "定期演奏会 - subscription concert" with a further explanation in Japanese about how this is the sort of concert where can only get tickets with a reservation. TomorrowTime (talk) 08:16, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Thank you, so do you think that's implied in English (that it cost money or is by reservation only)? Can I just say "the battle of the deeply moving concert"? Louis Waweru  Talk  09:14, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the context this is used in - it could mean "the moving competition of the subscription concerts" (IMO バトル would probably translate better to "competition", but it could depend on the context again), or it could mean "the competition of moving subscription concerts", and possibly, some other meaning could be wrung out of the phrase as well :) Re: "subscription concert", lets hear from a native English speaker about that. To me, it doesn't really sound explanatory enough, but maybe that's just me. Let's have someone confirm the word. TomorrowTime (talk) 09:33, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, sorry I never heard the term before so I didn't look it up. Apparently "subscription concert" and "non-subscription concert" are commonly used in the orchestra world. Thanks again. Louis Waweru  Talk  09:46, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

What are you all talking about? 「定期」means 'regular'.--ChokinBako (talk) 09:51, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't know! =) I think the Japanese wiki agrees with his dictionary though. I can find "regular concert" in google, too. I simply have never heard these terms before, so I really don't know. Louis Waweru  Talk  10:02, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

定期演奏会 is a subscription concert held regularly by a standing orchestra, brass band, ensamble, choir, etc. See these. [2] and [3] Oda Mari (talk) 15:18, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

ChokinBako, of course it means that, I was just quoting what my dictionary spat out. By the way, I asked for a native speaker confirmation, because I fully get the concept of a "subscription concept" (called an "abonma" in my mothertongue, Slovene, and a very commonplace word at that), but I never before heard this supposed English equivalent, and wasn't sure if it meant anything to your average Joe the wikipedian. TomorrowTime (talk) 19:20, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

How do you pronounce "Aegeus"?

You know, the king of Athens? When I first heard the Theseus and the Minotaur story, the person who told me it pronounced it like (sorry, I don't know IPA) "eye-gefs" or "eye-gevs" or something like that, so that's how I've always said it. But most people I've talked to about this pronounces it something like "ey-gee-ous" (I'm really terrible at this phonetic-writing thing, sorry), sort-of like it's spelled. Can anyone clear this matter up? Belisarius (talk) 08:30, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The second pronunciation sounds right to me. I'll take a guess that the person who first read the story was seeing it as AEGEVS, with a V instead of a U, which could have led to the incorrect pronunciation you describe. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:17, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

Guessing but if you say e-jee-en for Aegean Sea, would you say E-jee-us in English? The Greek seems to use the soft "g": Αἰγεύς, possibly eye-gee-ous. But I'm really terrible at this too. Julia Rossi (talk) 09:55, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

These classical names always have nativized English pronunciations based on the traditional English pronunciation of Latin. I'd pronounce it "ee-JEE-us". The classical Greek pronunciation would be something like "eye-GEOOS" with a hard g and an "eh-oo" diphthong that doesn't exist in English. The modern Greek pronunciation would be something like "eh-YEFS". It sounds to me like the person who the OP first heard pronounce the word was aiming for a compromise between Ancient Greek and Modern Greek, but doing that when speaking English sounds pretentious at best, and ridiculous when it's not even consistent for a particular period of Greek. ("eye-gefs" uses the classical Greek pronunciation for the first three letters of the word and the modern Greek pronunciation for the last three.) —Angr 10:48, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I rarely find myself disagreeing with the contributions of Angr, but in this case I do. The main point about the pronunciation in Ancient Greek, Modern Greek and traditional English pronunciation is that the word is two syllables, not three. In Ancient Greek, something like eye-geus, in Modern Greek something like ay-yefs (the pronunciation of the gamma in Modern Greek being notoriously difficult to capture), in traditional English ee-juice.Maid Marion (talk) 15:54, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I've never heard anyone pronounce it with two syllables in English. I would also use Angr's "ee-jee-us" pronunciation. The only -eus ending that is one syllable is "Zeus". Adam Bishop (talk) 16:36, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

I would disagree with this. I pronounce Theseus, Perseus, etc as two syllables (ie the eus bit is one syllable) --rossb (talk) 21:05, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

There probably are a few people who do this, but I'd suggest the majority would say "thee-see-us" and "per-see-us". If they were intended to be pronounced as 2 syllables, they'd be spelt Thesus and Persus. But they're not. There's a wine popular in Australia called Mateus Rosé, which many people pronounce "ma-TOOS", but I always insist on "ma-TAY-us". -- JackofOz (talk) 22:00, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I also pronounce Aegeus with three syllables, but as /eɪdʒiːəs/, corresponding with my pronunciation of Aegean. Algebraist 16:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

That captital E up there was me confusing the name capital and having it turn out like an emphatic. Interestingly, the closest I can find to the two-syllable way is "aegis" (ee-jus|ˈējis) via Latin from Greek aigis "shield of Zeus." So for me, Aegeus is e-JEE-us. My first thought on the v/f sound was as per Angr's view that it's a modern Greek mix on the word. Gotta watch those Greeks. Julia Rossi (talk) 21:35, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

According to the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary, two-syllable pronunciations like "thee-suice" and "per-suice" are more common in British English, while three-syllable pronunciations like "thee-see-us" and "per-see-us" are more common in American English. Aegeus isn't listed in the dictionary, but I assume that Brits would tend to say "ee-juice" while Americans would tend to say "ee-jee-us". (Or with "ay-" as per Algebraist.) —Angr 21:39, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

For me it's most important to determine first where the stress falls, yet this question is less commonly asked or answered. The questioner does not ask about stress in Aegeus, and while some of those answering here indicate the stress, no one addresses it systematically.

I cannot agree with Angr's ee-JEE-us. Even if we analyse the Greek word as trisyllabic, the Ancient Greek accent (and therefore the Modern Greek stress) would fall on the third syllable. But this is irrelevant for English stress, as Angr knows full well. Angr also knows that, the second syllable being short (an open syllable, and an epsilon), the English stress would be on the preceding syllable. So it would be EE-jee-us, to modify Angr's representation. Whatever other decisions are made in fact, the stress in English falls on the first syllable of Aegeus: except for those rare souls who stress Greek words in English words as in Modern Greek (that is, the stress falls on the syllable that bears the ancient accent).

As for the pronunciation of the first syllable in English, that is a matter of convention and choice. I aim for consistency. I pronounce the ae in vertebrae /ai/ (as in aisle); and I would pronounce Aegeus accordingly.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 23:16, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

The stress of Aegeus is on the second syllable in my (southern English) idiolect. The OED seems to agree (it doesn't list Aegeus, but has Aegean as ee-JEE-un). Algebraist 00:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

But Aegean gives us no secure guidance, Algebraist. That is an adjectival form, with a different etymological trajectory. It would be almost like stressing antipodes on its last syllables because we stress antipoDEan as we do.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 00:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Noetica is right that Greek names in -eus are usually stressed on the syllable before the -eus in English: Odýsseus, Mórpheus, Pérseus, Théseus, Órpheus, Prométheus, Próteus, so indeed Aégeus would better fit the pattern than Aegéus. —Angr 06:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Can't seem to log on for some reason, but this is MaidMarion again. I'm very surprised that there is any controversy about this. Firstly, the pronunciation of Aegean has no bearing on the issue. The English 'e' here represents a diphthong in the original Greek, whereas in Aegeus the original Greek is simply an epsilon, which combines with the upsilon to form a diphthong. That's why nobody I know who understands anything about Greek - and this includes the many distinguished Classicists I speak with regularly - would dream of pronouncing Aegeus as three syllables (to be honest, it sounds plain ignorant). Similarly, I have never heard anyone with Classical training pronounce Perseus or Theseus as three syllables - again, it would sound as though the speaker simply does not know the origin of the name. Someone earlier said that Zeus is the only name where the eu is pronounced in English as one syllable, but this is quite wrong: we can add Proteus, Odysseus etc (surely nobody has ever heard the pronunciation Od-yss-ee-us??) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.43.104.104 (talk) 10:46, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, yes, actually; I say Od-yss-ee-us myself and always heard it pronounced that way by my teachers at school and my professors at university. See my comments above about the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary; it may be a trans-Atlantic difference. But I studied Latin at an American high school and Classics at an American university and had ample opportunity to hear well-educated Americans pronounce these words - and Morpheus, Perseus, Theseus, Orpheus, and Proteus are all 3-syllable words and Odysseus and Prometheus are 4-syllable words. The -eus ending is usually rendered as disyllabic [-i.əs] by Americans (at least, maybe others as well) with training in Classics, and not as monosyllabic [-(j)uːs] (with the exception of Zeus, which is [zuːs] for us yod dropping types). Your experience may differ from mine, but that doesn't mean mine is nonexistent or that the people I've met in my lifetime are less educated than the people you've met in yours. —Angr 11:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

That's astonishing Angr. Please don't think I disparage your experience: if that's what you have heard, then so be it. But I have attended numerous international Classics conferences, invariably full to overflowing with US scholars, and I have never heard any variation in usage in this area. Though you do remind me of a variation that struck me recently when I was watching a TV programme about Thermopylae: the US scholars to a man referred to the Greek leader as Lee-on-EYE-das, following the Greek accentuation, rather than Lee-ON-i-das, which is universal here in the UK. So maybe, as you suggest, there are some unexpected trans-Atlantic variations. But be careful: if you come to England and lecture on someone called Ee-GEE-us your audience is likely to snigger! Maybe my US listeners have been sniggering at me all these years when I refer to Ee-juice. Maid Marion (talk) 13:35, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I hope you pronounce the upsilon in Odysseus and the aspirated tau in Theseus, Marion; you wouldn't want us to think you are ignorant... Adam Bishop (talk) 16:05, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Oh dear, now Adam is sniggering at me! 217.43.104.104 (talk) 16:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Adam, if Maid Marion was doing it proper, what was you sniggering at? Deor (talk) 21:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Fwiw, I accept in good faith what Maid Marion says but I'm in complete agreement with Angr here regarding actual usage. For non-classicists, who comprise the vast preponderance of people, it's asking too much to expect them to know that the -eus in Amadeus is two syllables but the -eus in the words we're talking about is only one, which is why hardly anyone (in relative terms) actually does. Classicists are welcome to stick to the "proper" pronunciation amongst themselves, but whether they like it or not, the standard and dominant pronunciation of Odysseus has become Od-yss-ee-us. Similarly for Pro-mee-thee-us and Pro-tee-us, etc. One might ask what business non-classicists even have in using these words to begin with, and if they are so impertinent as to use them, how dare they deign to decide for themselves how they're pronounced. Ask away, but usage prevails over theory in the end. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:36, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Fair comment, Adam Bishop and JackofOz. Maid Marion nods perceptibly on this occasion. The points she makes were pretty well covered already (for example, this remark of my own: "But Aegean gives us no secure guidance, Algebraist. That is an adjectival form, with a different etymological trajectory"). It is a courtesy to read and acknowledge, rather than make points freshly as if they were one's own. But of course, threads get tangled and hard to read through, and we must all (peccadillists that we are) forever show forbearance.

–_⊥^{¡ɐɔıʇǝo}Noetica!^T– 21:57, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I hope my comment didn't seem too snarky. I was joking but it doesn't seem that way now that I read it again. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Adam, no problem. I know you were joking. Noetica, I knew you had already made that point, but I added detail to explain what you meant by the different etymological trajectory. Jack, I understand perfectly what you are saying and I'm not trying to alter common usage. But we have a duty on this desk to explain to the original questioner what is 'right', even though common usage does not follow the 'right' road. If the original questioner wants to know the answer so as not to appear ignorant in talking to classical folk in the UK (and in fact just generally well educated folk over here) then what I have said will help him/her. Once again, I can't seem to log in, but you know who I am! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.150.96.152 (talk) 06:56, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Did X use the word Y?

In general, is there a way to find out if author "X" used the word "Y" in their writing, short of reading their entire works?

For example, to find out whether Shakespeare used the word "dairy" in any of his works, there are electronic transcriptions of his works that can be searched.

What about the case of authors whose works are still in copyright? For example, is there an easy way to find out if Truman Capote used the word "morphodite" in any of his works?

Thanks, CBHA (talk) 23:19, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

What you're looking for is a Concordance. Such things exist for some authors and do not for others. --Tagishsimon (talk) 01:40, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I believe you can search through Google Books, and if you're lucky you may find a definitive answer. It's a long shot but it only takes a minute or two so I say try it anyways. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.98.0.132 (talk) 03:58, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

If it's a renowned author then most of his/her works should be available in electronic form. So you wouldn't have to read through their work, but "search". (See if your library has CDs or join a site that offers e-books). Since some of those transcriptions tend to be rife with typos, your result might still be off, even if more complete (and possibly more expensive) than a Google Book search.76.97.245.5 (talk) 05:02, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

This seems like an interesting and useful function. I suggest that you register at Main Page - Wikisource, and then visit Wikisource:Scriptorium - Wikisource, where you can ask about its existence or request its implementation. (How much time would you require to search by yourself through all the works listed at Author:William Shakespeare - Wikisource?)

-- Wavelength (talk) 06:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't think you have to register to ask a question at Wikisource's Scriptorium, and if you're interested in Truman Capote (currently a red link at Wikisource), you won't have much luck there anyway, since his works are all still under copyright protection. —Angr 13:45, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

When the word to be searched for is a rare one it's worth trying your nearest copy of the Oxford English Dictionary, since that illustrates each definition with a small collection of usages. It tells us that Capote used the word morphodite in The Grass Harp: "1951 T. CAPOTE Grass Harp (1952) i. 3 One of the stories he spread, that Verena was a morphodyte, has never stopped going around." --Antiquary (talk) 21:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Poems about insanity

Are there any poems centered around the theme of insanity? 99.226.138.202 (talk) 23:47, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

[4] This link has a suggested start of about 350 poems. You'll have to sift through it. They're amateur poems, though. If you're looking for references for an assignment, it's a little more difficult, but there is a lot of it out there. Emily Dickinson might be a start. Steewi (talk) 00:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

My personal favorite is Thomas Hardy's "The Interloper". Deor (talk) 00:14, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

The Raven? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.199.126.76 (talk) 03:41, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Much of Samuel Taylor Coleridge's poems could be argued give insight into the unbalanced mind. The Rime of the Ancient Mariner is quite psychologically disturbing, to say the least. Coleridge was a famous opium adict (think: heroin) and some of his poems were expressly about his drug addled visions i.e. Kubla Khan... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 03:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it's quite a stretch to maintain that either "The Rime of the Ancient Mariner" or "Kubla Khan" is a poem "centered around the theme of insanity". Deor (talk) 03:59, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Everything by Sylvia Plath? —Angr 06:44, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

A Season in Hell aka Une Saison en Enfer by Arthur Rimbaud is a take on someone unravelling under stress. Hilda Hilst wrote about it, but in Spanish. Julia Rossi (talk) 06:50, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Really? She usually wrote in Portuguese. —Angr 07:48, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

That's the kind of information the article needs, (done) thanks Angr, Julia Rossi (talk) 08:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

IMHO the best, most moving treatment of this subject in English is I Am by John Clare. Click the wikisource link at the foot of the article for the text. A lot of his other poems cover the same theme. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 08:36, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

For an example of "outsider poetry", Ernst Herbeck (one of Leo Navratil's patients) is worth mentioning. Unfortunately the article links to very literal English translations of some of his poems, lacking the direct and immediate effect of the original.

Another "outsider" (of course they are "insiders" in this context) who was more known for his visual art was Adolf Wölfli, but he also wrote and recited poetry. Rilke read Morgenthaler's study on Wöfli in 1921, shortly before his own remarkable and intense creative thrust allowed Rilke to complete the Duino Elegies and Sonnets to Orpheus, which both include evocations of insanity, though here too it is a stretch to claim that they "center around the theme of insanity". Still: "For beauty is nothing but the beginning of terror, which we are still just able to endure, / and we are so awed because it serenely disdains to annihilate us." ---Sluzzelin talk 11:43, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, I was thinking of Rilke too. One of his poems seemed to resonate very strongly with Leonard L in Awakenings - mind you, he wasn't even remotely insane, just physically ill (a hangover from encephalitis lethargica), but because of the nature of his illness he was being treated in a place where people with mental illnesses were also being treated, and by the same staff. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

If Leonard L was portrayed by Robert de Niro in the movie, and if I recall correctly, then said poem was "The Panther - In the Jardin des Plantes, Paris", 1902, from Rilke's Dinggedichte. A very famous and very depressing poem. ---Sluzzelin talk 21:25, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Yes, that's it. The panther being trapped in its cage reminded Leonard of his desire to communicate as against his experience of being trapped in his own psyche and being unable to communicate. -- JackofOz (talk) 21:38, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Opium Wars

Is it just me or does the following sentence from the lead of the above article seem wrong: "British smuggling of opium from British India into China and the Chinese government's efforts to enforce its drug laws erupted in conflict of drugs."? Fribbler (talk) 23:50, 13 November 2008 (UTC)

It's not just you. The sentence goes all to pot near the end. CBHA (talk) 00:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

concur —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.199.126.76 (talk) 04:54, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Should "of" be "over"? Should in be into, and conflict be war? And what kind of conflict – full-scale, all-out war? Julia Rossi (talk) 07:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I've fixed it. Marco polo (talk) 03:03, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

November 14

Edit help Kemps Creek, New South Wales

While correcting a typo in above article I stumbled over this sentence:

• To the north Mamre Road runs southeast-northwest through the suburb and there are several reservoirs, including the main one which Kemps Creek flows into, confluencing with South Creek a short while after

There is no such animal as confluencing. But short of rephrasing the whole thing, what would be the correct form? Is there one like that? 76.97.245.5 (talk) 05:51, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I think "merging with" works. IMO there are other problems here as well. Rephrasing the whole thing may be the best approach. CBHA (talk) 06:29, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

"Confluencing with" = joining? Julia Rossi (talk) 07:06, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. I agree that rephrasing might be the best solution. BTW. I may be defining things too narrowly, but I would read "river A joining river B" to mean that the river is only named B from that point on; "river A merging with river B" I would not be certain whether the river was then called B or C. Since I don't know anything about the place, I have no clue. (And the Australian view might differ on this point anyway).76.97.245.5 (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 10:45, 14 November 2008 (UTC).

Personally, I don't have a problem with "confluencing". See Verbing, a subject people have different opinions on. Still, if the subject is encyclopedic enough to be worth covering at all, it would be better to clarify what the merged river is called. --Anonymous, 16:42 UTC, November 14, 2008.

Someone could make more sense of google earth than this, but it looks like Kemps Creek runs into a reservoir and goes on flowing, later South Creek runs into it. The river along Penrith is the Nepean, a tributary of the Hawkesbury. Julia Rossi (talk) 22:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Laptops vs. notebooks

What is happening with the relative usages of these two terms? It seems to me that some people are trying to ease 'laptop' into obsolescence, we are seeing the term 'notebook' used more and more in the IT press even though I would hazard a guess most people would still refer to their portable computer as a laptop not a notebook. Here on wiki Notebook computer is a redirect to laptop which is fine by me, hope it never gets reversed. I suspect the perception is that 'notebook' sounds ritzier somehow, this may be true but is not a reason for the change. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 10:42, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I think it's because the manufacturers don't want to imply that it's okay to put them on your lap. There have been some cases of people getting burns. Here's a random blog post that backs me up, so it must be true. On the other hand, dell.com still uses the word "laptop" even though they've been implicated in some of these stories. -- BenRG (talk) 11:10, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

For a very brief period both laptop computers and the then new and lighter "notebook" computers were both available. We used to call a laptop a "schleptop" computer. You'd be surprised just how far the definition "portable" could be stretched. And it was true, too, when compared to say the computer at our school that still occupied a full room at the time. The next size down from there was a desk-top computer which meant that it would occupy almost all the space on your desk, with a bulky CRT monitor (small screen, wow this one does color!!) sitting on top. So, what do you call as size smaller than a desktop? Laptop was a logical choice. (And sounded quite "ritzy" back then.) Balancing approx. 20lb. on your lap for an extended period is/was however not a recommended practice. While you won't have any trouble fitting your notebook into a briefcase, the usual transport medium for a laptop was a backpack. Some used the term laptop to include notebook computers. Little by little the old and bulky laptops died out and the term became synonymous with notebook. Since the term "notebook computer" sufficiently describes all of the laptops available now, I see no reason for keeping two expressions. (OR and in a few years a young linguist is probably going to come and do a study to say it never happened ;-)76.97.245.5 (talk) 11:43, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Does cufftop have any takers? Julia Rossi (talk) 22:13, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

There is a handheld PC (palmtop). -- Wavelength (talk) 01:35, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Burglar's tool

What is the thing called in UK? Two and a half foot long metal lever wrench used for prising open a door. Kittybrewster ☎ 15:17, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Crowbar. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:26, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

aka Jemmy - X201 (talk) 15:40, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Just by the way, here in North America it's a crowbar too; but our burglars would use it for prying the door open, not prising, and the other word becomes "jimmy". What a language. --Anonymous, 16:46 UTC, November 14, 2008.

How to improve communication skills in spanish and english language.

Hi All,

My name is Varun Sharma, i am a langauge expert {spanish} and teach spanish as well.I want to know how to improve communications skills for my work profile and in my personal life?

I earn my livelihood through speaking work, like i work as a interpreter,translater and mediator between the customers on phone as well.

i want to some or techniques through which i can improve my language.I tried so many steps to improve it,however still i am feeling i need some extraordinary stuff which can improve strength,catching power, proactiveness and better understanding in language.

So, i am looking forward for your kind advise which could help to enhence in my carrier.

Varun Sharma language Expert {spanish} —Preceding unsigned comment added by Varunsharma29 (talk • contribs) 17:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I recommend that you study these articles and follow their links to other articles.

• English language
• English orthography
• English grammar
• Spanish language
• Spanish orthography
• Spanish grammar

-- Wavelength (talk) 19:03, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Your vocabulary seems quite good, but your grammar makes it difficult to understand what you mean. If you want to learn more about English, you should read the articles Wavelength suggested; if you want to learn how to speak English more fluently, you will need a teacher (or better, a tutor) to help you. What you need to do is to communicate with people who speak English natively; speak to them face to face, on the phone, and write back and forth with them. Matt Deres (talk) 19:49, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Actually, with the exception of the phrase "i want to some or techniques through which", your English is easy to understand (apart from some misspellings) and mostly grammatical. However, your spelling and pronunciation reveal that you are more comfortable with spoken English than written English. That's fine if you mainly want to speak rather than write. That said, I agree with Matt Deres that the best way to improve your speech is by speaking with native speakers. The same would be true for Spanish. Marco polo (talk) 03:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

In addition to what Wavelength, Matt and Marco suggested, you could use a method that has worked well for most of my students: Get a book, then get the same book as and audio book. (read by a native speaker, not a cheap knock off) Read along aloud to the tape. (Normal speaking volume is best, whispering is o.k. but will not be quite as effective) Some people can not listen at the same time as they read/speak. In this case play a bit, then read the bit you just listened to. This works mostly on a subconscious level. While it is more effective to have a conversation and have s.o. point things out to you, your mind will notice when you deviate from the way it last processed the audio of that word or phrase and after a wile will ring an alarm bell telling you "something was off there". If you can't figure out where, you can run that phrase by a native speaker and ask. Apart from professional literature in your field, books by contemporary authors involving lots of dialog between middle class people work best. (You don't need to learn to speak like a Mafioso, nor 18th century nobility.) Another thing you could do every day is: take 3 words you know, write down what you understand those words to mean, then look them up in a dictionary (monolingual, not the translation kind) and if applicable a phrasal verb dictionary [5] or one of the sites mentioned. Then go to a news site and search for your words (and verb phrases) there. Look at how they are used. Study where in the sentence they are. Make sentences like the ones you found that deal with things you might want to discuss with s.o. (If you have the time google your sentence to check if s.o. else has used your word in that context. Some words are used only in certain combinations.) For extra credit look up synonyms [6] and add them to your list for the next round. A little caveat on speaking with native speakers to improve your language skills vs. hiring a tutor/trainer. On evaluating the efficiency of a "language swap" program at a local university, we found that lots of participants hesitated to correct mistakes their opposite made, even though they expected to be corrected by them during the "swap". Another complaint was that people often know what they would say in a certain situation, but unless they have read up on it, will rarely know why. As an interpreter you are probably well aware of the third issue we found which was that cultural differences often complicated the discussions if the participants hadn't agreed on a topic beforehand and prepared for it. I don't mean to say that talking to native speakers won't improve your skills, but it helps to be aware that there are some limitations. Last but not least participating in forums like this one, but focused on your L2 (e.g. [7]) lets you help yourself by helping others. You get exposed to problems that you may not yet have encountered and can share what you have learned with other posters. Hope this helps. Good luck. 76.97.245.5 (talk) 06:03, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

@Marco polo - Just to be clear, I wasn't trying to criticize his grammar, just pointing out that his request could be taken in two different ways, as evidenced by Wavelength's suggestions. When I first read the question, I was going to reply with what turned out to be the latter half of my answer, but Wavelength's reply made me unsure I'd understood the question. Matt Deres (talk) 17:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

interdental fricative

Is there any word in the English language which has an initial voiced interdental fricative and is not part of a closed word class? Wrad (talk) 20:18, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Pronunciation_of_English_th#Phonology_and_distribution makes it sound like a definite list. (subsubheading "Initial position"). I don't know whether "various compound adverbs based on the above words: therefore, thereupon, thereby, thereafter, thenceforth" mean that there doesn't belong to a closed word class, and hopefully someone else will pitch in now. ---Sluzzelin talk 20:55, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

Words such as then, there, thereby, and thereafter are adverbs, and adverbs are not a closed word class. That said, I think that you could say that words with an initial voiced dental fricative are a closed set of words if not a true word class. That is, I don't think that the initial voiced interdental fricative is a "productive" phoneme, if the concept of productivity can be applied to phonology. Marco polo (talk) 03:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I don't see why it couldn't. Related to this fact is the following bit of anecdotal evidence: When I was learning Welsh in a very small class (3 people) as an undergraduate, there was one woman in the class (a native speaker of American English) who simply could not manage to pronounce /ð/ at the beginning of Welsh content words like Ddafydd or ddangos; she always just used [d] unless the teacher got on her case and forced her to pronounce it correctly. I couldn't figure out why she had such difficulty since she pronounced the, then, there, etc., completely correctly in English. I guess she had her closed set of words with initial /ð/ and was unable to add to the set. —Angr 10:16, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

adverbs is a catch-all class, but all the TH-words are function words. OED says (I think this text is from the first edition):

Initially, the same change of (θ) to (ð) took place during the Middle English period in the demonstrative group of words, the, that, and their kindred, this, these, †tho, those, there, then, than, thence, thither, thus, etc., and in the pronouns of the second person singular, thou, thee, thine, thy: these constitute the only words in English with initial (ð).

cmudict also lists THAO THAU THESING THEUS THOMANN, none of which are in OED; I suspect they're spurious. jnestorius^(talk) 16:47, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

May I have a word, please ?

How do I collectively refer to any type of noodles with tomato sauce ? That is, angel hair pasta, penne pasta, rotini, elbow macaroni, etc. I currently refer to all such foods simply as "spaghetti", but know that isn't correct, as that refers to a specific diameter circular noodle. On the other hand, calling it "pasta" is too broad, as that includes foods like ravioli and lasagna. I'm straining and going out of my noodle trying to find the answer to this stirring problem, and this experience has left me both limp and drained, so any help would be much appreciated. A free meatball goes to the first responder ! StuRat (talk) 23:11, 14 November 2008 (UTC)

I would use pasta for that...to me, lasagna isn't pasta, which leads me to wonder what lasagna is, and I conclude that it is simply lasagna. Pasta has tiny noodles, or long strings like spaghetti, with sauce and bits of meat, and you can make it in a few minutes just by boiling some water. Lasagna is made differently, and it's more like a meatloaf or something, and it has cheese and more meat...I don't know, I'm sure this is all completely inaccurate to true pasta connoisseurs. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:37, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

In my (southern English) world, lasagna is pasta, as are penne, conchiglie, fusilli, and so on. None of these, however, are noodles. In answer to the question, I would call use pasta as the generic term, even though it applies to other stuff as well. Algebraist 00:42, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not sure what tomato sauce has to do with it: pasta is as much pasta in carbonara as in puttanesca. it:Pasta#Forme suggest pasta lunga ("long pasta"; plural paste lunghe). jnestorius^(talk) 00:57, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Some pasta are boiled, then served with a sauce - spaghetti, fettucini, penne, etc. etc..

Some are filled and then baked with sauce - lasagna, manicotti, cannelloni.

Some are filled, boiled, then served with a sauce - tortellini, ravioli.

Given the variety of combinations, I doubt there is a specific name for the particular combination you have in mind. CBHA (talk) 00:59, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

So those 3 categories you listed don't have names ? The top one is the one I'm interested in. StuRat (talk) 01:07, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

No names that I know. Jnestorius suggests "long pasta", which fits spaghetti and fettucini, but not penne, shell pasta, or other small shapes. CBHA (talk) 01:14, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The OP used the cover-term "noodles"; I would not consider small shapes to be noodles. jnestorius^(talk) 16:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I do want to include shells, penne, elbows, rotini and other small shapes. If those shapes aren't "noodles", then I used the term incorrectly. StuRat (talk) 19:17, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

The correct spelling is "fettuccine". -- Wavelength (talk) 01:26, 15 November 2008 (UTC) - Thank you CBHA (talk) 05:43, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I think that lasagna counts as pasta in American English, too. I am afraid that there isn't a word for pasta boiled and served with sauce. Marco polo (talk) 03:29, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, OK then, I guess I'll have to make up my own. How about SPASTA, for Spaghetti-like PASTA ? StuRat (talk) 04:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

May I ask why it's important to have a name for this, Stu? The world seems to have survived so far without one. For the record, I doubt that "spasta" would ever catch on. It's far too redolent of spastic, which for many people would be off-putting when associated with food. -- JackofOz (talk) 04:27, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Moreover, to someone who appreciates pasta, fettuccine is NOT "spaghetti-like". CBHA (talk) 05:43, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I would like to be able to say "Which type of SPASTA would you prefer for dinner ?". Currently this makes for an awkward sentence such as this: "We're having some type of pasta noodles tonight; excluding lasagna, manicotti, cannelloni, tortellini, ravioli, etc.; which will be served with spaghetti sauce. Which type of pasta would you prefer ?". StuRat (talk) 06:36, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If you say "we're having pasta with arrabiata sauce tonight; what type of pasta would you prefer?" then context makes it clear that ravioli, lasagna, etc are not appropriate responses. jnestorius^(talk) 16:18, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

What's wrong with saying "We're having pasta with spaghetti sauce tonight. What type of noodles would you prefer?" (But if we're making up names, I prefer "saucy pasta vixens from outer space".) Clarityfiend (talk) 02:32, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The word "noodles" may exclude some pasta choices which I want to include, like shells and rotini. StuRat (talk) 16:23, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Some people use pasta to refer to both the dish and the noodles involved. Lasagna (usually) uses semolina noodles, so it gets referred to as a pasta (as in our article), but the dish itself is actually a casserole. Matt Deres (talk) 17:10, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I usually think of pasta as the subset of noodles such that pasta are simply Italian-cuisine derived noodles. I wouldn't call Lo mein or Soba pasta, but I would call them noodles. But then again, couscous is neither a pasta nor a noodle, but it is essentially like both. Hmmm... Once again, language proves to be an imperfect system. C'est la vie... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 17:24, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

November 15

seeking a defintion

I am seeking the definition of the word "rollac" from the Oxford English Dictionary, if anyone happens to have access to one. Cheers. — CactusWriter | ^needles 13:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Try rollac, which uses the OED as one of its references. Hope this helps. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 14:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

I have a second-edition OED, and rollac does not appear as a lemma in it. Deor (talk) 14:54, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Then I am not sure with the writer of the article. The article was written only a month ago. Maybe (s)he has copies of the three additional series to the OED second edition, or is a subscriber to OED Online. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 15:10, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

(ec) I certainly hope the other "sources" listed in our article Rollac check out better than the OED does. Google and Google Books searches for various combinations of words therein—such as rollac +arms, rollac +garment, and rollac +lutter—do not yield results that would suggest that the article is anything but a hoax. Deor (talk) 15:11, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. The article Rollac was, of course, the reason I needed to know. Without finding any references during an extensive internet search (using a bunch of different variables), I figured the article as a hoax. The OED was my last check -- the second edition should have it. I am going to list the article for Afd. Thanks again for your help. — CactusWriter | ^needles 15:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

If it is a hoax, then I'll gladly support its deletion. You're welcome, by the way. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 15:22, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Now that it's been deleted (by the time I read the above, all the rollac links were in red!) I'm really curious what it could have been! Do any of you have the old version, could you copy it here for the sake of our curiosity? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.199.126.76 (talk) 17:19, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Please don't copy the whole thing here; it was some kind of semi-stupid meandering about arm braces in past fashions. AnonMoos (talk) 19:03, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, the closest I could find in the OED is rolag: A roll of carded wool ready for spinning. (Gaelic)--Shantavira|^{feed me} 10:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Bangladesh

According to your article "Demographics of Pakistan", it says that besides Urdu and English, the provincial languages are Punjabi, Sindhi, Balochi and Pashto; regional languages are Saraiki and Hindko; religious language is Arabic and cultural languages are Turkish and Persian. So, I want to know that besides Bengali and English, which languages do Bangladeshi people consider religious and which languages do they consider cultural? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.14.119.240 (talk) 17:21, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

For Muslims, Arabic is typically the only real religious language as such... AnonMoos (talk) 19:04, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

For Sunni Muslims, perhaps, but the Shia may also have others. StuRat (talk) 19:12, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Bangladeshi Muslims make up about 90% of the country's population. Of these, 96% are Sunni, and 3% are Shia. For both Sunni and Shia Muslims, Arabic is really the only religious language. About 9% of Bangladeshis are Hindus. Sanskrit is the main religious language for Hindus. Most of the remaining 1% are Buddhists, for whom Pali is the main religious language. I don't think that there are "cultural languages" that have a similar status in Bangladesh to Persian or Turkish in Pakistan. The only language that I think might count as a "cultural language" in Bangladesh is English. Marco polo (talk) 02:49, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

House style?

In the absence of MOS:!VOTE, I am wondering what pedants consider the appropriate way to format an XfD !vote. Should the first letter of the first word after the bolded !vote be capitalized? If the bolded |vote has more than one word in it, should they all be capitalised? Should a punctuation mark separate the bolded !vote from the comment? If so, what? the skomorokh 20:33, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Just comment on the discussion. If you want your "vote" or "non-vote" or whatever you want to call it to stand out, it is common practice to bold a one or two word summary of the conclusion of your reasoning, but it is the reasoning that follows this bolded word that matters, not the word itself... --Jayron32.talk.contribs 21:06, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

You appear to be a reasonably, nonchalant individual. I'm afraid I was looking for input from pedants of the highest degree. Thank you for your effort, but please try to be more anal in future. Regards, the skomorokh 21:29, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Unfortunately, in a world where WP:IAR rules, pedantics tend to run into more trouble than pragmatics. Wikipedia as a culture tends to reject the pedantic in favor of the pragmatic. To be honest, no one really cares how you choose to bold your !vote. It really makes no difference, so long as you don't try to be obnoxious about it. Anyhoo, that's the best I can offer! --Jayron32.talk.contribs 01:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

"Non silba sed anthar"

What language is this? If it's Latin, what are those strange words silba and anthar? Many Ku Klux Klan websites translate it as "not for oneself but for others", but I would say that in Latin as "non sibi sed aliis". What's the deal? —Keenan Pepper 21:32, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

You expect the KKK to get something right? The deal is simply that they are as ignorant of Latin as they are of biology, and everything else they ever "think" about (and I use the term loosely). —Angr 21:44, 15 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, even if it's incorrect, I'm sure it has to have some origin... —Keenan Pepper 00:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Never heard of those words in Latin. However, the 'not for oneself but for others' calls to mind the poem from the Appendix Vergiliana in which a series of images is presented, each one ending with 'sic vos non vobis', the only one of which I can remember off the top of my head is 'sic vos non vobis mellificatis apes'. I'm sure others can supply the full reference, but whether it is connected with KKK I just don't know. Maid Marion (talk) 00:16, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

(edit conflict) I think it is an intentional mix of Latin and Germanic. The 'non' and 'sed' are Latin while 'silba' could be Gothic and 'anthar' is, I don't know, Old High German or something. Why would they want to make such a mix? I don't know, though the idea isn't unique to them. Haukur (talk) 00:37, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, Zamenhof (i think) used Germanic or Slavic roots mainly when Romance roots, adapted to his morphology, were ambiguous. —Tamfang (talk) 01:19, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

This indicates it's Gothic. Little Red Riding Hoodtalk 00:34, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Ah, yes, you're right - they're both Gothic. Taking a wild guess I'd suggest a mix of two venerable representatives of two European language families was intended to represent European/white solidarity or something like that. I also suppose a dative plural was too much to ask for. Haukur (talk) 00:43, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Isn't KKK itself some bastardized Greek phrase? Adam Bishop (talk) 01:56, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

It is. Ku Klux came from the Greek word kuklos, or circle. --Sky Harbor ^(talk) 02:39, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Sherlock Holmes, in The Five Orange Pips, suggests that the Klan's "name [is] derived from the fanciful resemblance to the sound produced by cocking a rifle" [8] Malcolm XIV (talk) 13:30, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

November 16

Classical Greek Literature in Original

Hello - I am in search of classical greek literature - for starters, Plato and Homer -

whether on wiki or not

Interlinear translation would be great!

Thanks in advance!

-Jermey —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.224.78.202 (talk) 01:07, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Try Loeb Classical Library off-wiki...Wikisource probably has some too. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

The Perseus Project has a lot of Greek literature available online, as well as translations, parsers, and lexica. It's quite useful for working through the originals (though don't pay the parser much heed). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.228.99.119 (talk) 04:22, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

seeking a word by providing a definition

I taught my son a new word that I found while reading Wiki earlier today and now cannot remember the word. One of the definitions was something to the effect of "Pertaining to a larger group" as in Coke can be a generic term meaning "soda" or "pop". The word was very difficult to pronounce and ended in a "so-dew-kay" type sound. Any assistance would be appreciated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.42.168.130 (talk) 08:50, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the word you are thinking of is Synecdoche. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:04, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

That's it! Thanks! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.42.168.130 (talk) 09:13, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Out of curiosity: did your son remember the word? And how old is he, roughly? BrainyBabe (talk) 11:14, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Generic term for "Weeble"

Please see my query on the Weeble Talk page about the earlier, generic term for these toys, often in human (e.g. clown) form, whose weighted, rounded base allows them to right themselves after being knocked down. I'll need the British English and U.S. English variants (if these differ), with the object of creating a page corresponding to the German Wikipedia's Stehaufmännchen rather than a derivative commercial product. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 11:05, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Pages such as this and this suggest that roly-poly (or unhyphenated roly poly) is used as a generic name for these. (Google for "roly poly" +toy and "roly poly" +clown for numerous other examples.) Unfortunately, in a cursory search I was unable to find any record of this usage in dictionaries. Deor (talk) 12:46, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Addendum: Here and here are uses in reliable secondary sources, at least. (I have the second book on my shelves but had not recalled this occurring in it.) Others turn up in a Google Books search. Deor (talk) 13:00, 16 November 2008 (UTC)

Obsession with mice

As I'm reading Of Mice and Men by John Steinbeck, I've been wondering, what is the appropriate term for Lennie's obsession with mice? Fear of mice would be musophobia... so would its opposite be musophilia? I appreciate the help! Vic93 (t/c) 16:54, 16 November 2008 (UTC)