Talk:Barack Obama

Redundant discussions

Please skim this page first (and ideally the FAQ) before starting a new discussion on the "president elect" designation, or Obama's race/ethnicity. You'll probably find there's already a section there where you can add your comments. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 00:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Is there an article or section related to the Transition Team? Chadlupkes (talk) 23:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The "Race/ethnicity" section has (presumably by "Wikidemon", the self-styled "owner" of this page) not just been consolidated or shifted to another already existing section: it has, in effect, simply been removed. The contents are no longer available unless one presses a special link to enter the "archive". Wikipedia guidelines explicitly forbid tampering with other contributors' material on a Talk Page. The current treatment of the "Race/ethnicity" section (rendering none of the contributions visible on the main Talk Page, effectively "hiding" it all inside an "archive") is a violation of these guidelines.Jakob37 (talk) 03:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Anything that can be done to speed the loading of this talk page up, I'm all for it. It's taking forever to load, and old issues that have been discussed ad infinitum don't need to be here. It's hard enough to discuss current issues as it is. Dayewalker (talk) 03:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

In that case, there are several other "overly large" sections that could be archived. If User#1 thinks that Topic X is too long and boring, then that user may, without further ado, hide its contents inside an archive. But then User#2 thinks that Topic Y is too long and boring, so that user hides Topic Y's material inside an archive, although User#1 thinks it should stay visible. Is that how it's going to work?Jakob37 (talk) 05:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

In regards to the issue of African-American, mixed race, Black, designation by oneself vs. by others, etc., this talk page has spiraled completely out of control. I was rather miffed a day or two ago to find that my contributions, along with others, on the subject had, without any consultation, suddenly been stuffed into an archive, and now I am doubly miffed to see that the same subject has grown another head, even much larger than the material subjected to archiving, and yet nobody is archiving it this time -- quite UNFAIR. In any case, the more important point I would like to raise is that 95% to 99% of the contributions on these interconnected topics have no PARTICULAR connection to Obama; these issues are part of the socio-political nature of American (U.S.) life. Since there seems to be no lack of Wiki-editors who love to manipulate other people's contributions, may I suggest that all this material, instead of being archived (effectively out-of-sight, out-of-mind), be used to construct a separate article on "race attitudes in the U.S." or something to that effect (cf. my comment in "Wikipedia:Featured article review/Barack Obama" ). The Obama article itself should contain an appropriately brief discussion of Obama's relationship to these issues, followed by a hyperlink to the (proposed) article where these issues are described/discussed in the larger context that they deserve. And the Obama Talk-Page will then hopefully return to a focus on Obama himself. The way that Obama has dealt with these issues is not so different from the way thousands or even millions of other people have done.Jakob37 (talk) 08:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

69.134.20.90 (talk) 15:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC) i have come to notice that some of the people on this board are extremely racist and wont admit in the text of the article that obama is half white ..i understand the importance to some of the people on here that he be considered black but face facts he isnt.. he is listed as the first african american when in fact ,he isnt ..he might be the first half african american ever elected then when a true african american is elected you wont have to undo all the lies you have spouted about this one.this is afterall,a place where people come for knowledge not some general idea that is put forth by some people

Your comments are totally off base from beginning to end. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC) bugs , nice brush off if i am so offbase then why isnt it mentioned anywhere in the text about his white hertitage..people are wanting to claim his citzenship but not the people who gave him the right to that citizenship his black father was not a citizen so why is everyone harping on his race and wont acknowledge the white side ..maybe if this source were more fair to other people there wouldnt be the rage about how a man with dual citizenship got elected president or about where he was born when anybody can have a birth certficate made up with about 30 minutes planning just a little research i can be anybody with a legitament birth certficate if you want to fair to the readers and to the man himself at least make it fair

Have you bothered to read past the first paragraph? Like where it states that his mother was white? Oh, and have you found any reliable sources that don't call him "the first African American President"? Of course he's African American. He's also English American. But that last part is hardly news, as most every President has been European American. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC) yes i read the entire article and have seen lots of things about his life not published or ignored but the point i am making which you seem to be dodging he is only half and should be noted that way.. it is not as if it is hidden by him or anybody else if you were half italian 1/4 english and 1/4 russian would you want to be considered just russian ..he is english arabian and kenyan

We describe him the way the reliable sources describe him. And this has been already discussed at length. Your comments bring nothing new to the discussion. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:46, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC) so you need to change the slogan from "the free encyclopedia" to the free " follow the masses rumormill" if you cant post truths about somebody

First rule: Wikipedia bases its information on reliable sources, not on the "rumormill" and not on someone's opinion of the "truth". Second rule: Kindly put your 4 tildes at the END of your comments rather than the beginning. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

my apologies for posting incorectly ,but back to the main argument so you are saying that it isnt a reliable source that he is half white. if it is a reliable source it should be noted in the lead paragragh instead of half way down on one line69.134.20.90 (talk) 17:19, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

We go by reliable sources, and the wording is proper on that basis. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

genealogical tree of Obama

look at this [4].

in the article there is nothing about Obama's genealogy, despite it has been verified by multples media and newpapers in the past, as you can see in the notes. The article on English Wikipedia must be integrated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.37.49 (talk) 21:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The article discusses Obama's parents, grandparents, and children. That's a reasonable amount of family material. English Wikipedia articles generally do not contain genealogy trees (there are exceptions, such as some articles about royal families), but there is an article, Family of Barack Obama with much more information. Wikipedia isn't really a great resource for complete genealogies - there are other websites with that focus, and more useful tools. We can direct readers to that through the power of the hyperlink and citation (most apt for the family article, not this one). Wikidemon (talk) 21:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

To expand on what Wikidemon posted: There are many relevant links, but Wikipedia is not a link farm. That's why (in External links) we link to Obama's category on ODP which includes the link to: William Addams Reitwiesner Genealogical Services - Ancestry of Barack Obama for those interested. Flatterworld (talk) 19:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to the English Wikipedia, M ^r (or, of course, M/ ^s) IP! My own suggestion…

1. Find the right Obama sub-article… By your going to this article's "Further Reading" section (here: Barack Obama#Further Reading) and checking out the navigation-box template for The Series Of Articles About President-elect Barack Obama…then clicking on its Wikipedia link that says, "Family."
2. Find the correct section… By, once your screen loads up The Obama Family article, your looking at its table of contents and clicking the article's section entitled "Distant relations"…
3. Make a reasonable contribution… By, now that you've got to that section, your translating from the foreign language source you've mentioned just above, and contributing in English a sentence of arguably (quote) notable (end of quote) information that would fit the subject of this section: distant genealogical relationships of Barack Obama…
4. Cite a pertinent source in English… By, now, your using search engines or whatnot and finding an English-language source for this same info, then appending a footnote to your contribution that would reference it as a source…
5. Hover over the article every day… checking back until the inevitable um likewise hovering -- or, that is, circling -- sharks have arrived to delete it, alleging it simply not to be notable…
6. Defend your contribution… By your going to the Family article's talkpage and contending that the information you had contributed "…was indeed notable!"… Of course, explaining why you feel it to be…

Again… Welcome! Just tips me hat but then 〜on thought bows deeply … 05:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Cycle. And you wondered why Wkipedia's logo is circular. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 07:39, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

In fact, M ^r or M/ ^s IP, much of the info you cite is in the section I mentioned above, in a "collapsed" table. (Just click on its button that says "Show." And....don't worry, folks; all pix in it are free!)

Just tips me hat but then 〜on thought bows deeply … 04:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Why criticism of the article belongs on this page

I don't understand why user:Orangejumpsuit's comment does not belong on this page, since it is criticizing the sanitation of the Obama article? His comment regarding holding Republican articles to the same standard can be added to the Republican talk pages, but his point regarding the fairness and balance of this page should not be censored. I think his comment should be opened up for discussion on this talk page. Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any idea what some of us went through in September-October, trying to defend the Sarah Palin page against a siege of tabloid junk? Eventually we just gave up, and if her page is laden with unfair criticism, that's the reason. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

So in other words it's fine to leave Republican pages full of attacks, but Obama's must remain pure. The political bias of Liberalpedia is amazing.

Being rather familiar with disruptive editing, it should be quite easy to recognize when a person is merely present to push an agenda rather than honestly contribute to an article. The section above by this person was a soapboxing attack on other editors who do not share his particular opinion on the matter, and looking through his edit history, this is not the first time. Tarc (talk) 17:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

If there's any actual evidence that the page is being whitewashed of legitimate and pertinent critical commentary then I'm sure it would receive a fair hearing here. The evidence seems to suggest a rather strong correlation between "editors who propose the addition of critical commentary here" and "editors who believe that Obama is General Zod's Muslim half-nephew", however. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

In 2007 Obama himself said that his middle name and its Muslim roots will help heal the rift between the Muslim and Western world. You can't have it both ways.

It's worth keeping in mind that he's not President yet, so technically he hasn't done anything yet. Once he does, there will be ample legitimate criticism. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:37, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

He's been alive for quite some time, and has been an active member of adult society for most of that. This is not just the Obama Presidency article. Drawings he made in nursery school are being excluded because they are trivial, not because they weren't drawn during his term. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 23:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

True. I mean he hasn't done anything as President yet. And criticisms need to be based on reliable sources raising worthwhile points, not "he's a liberal and we hate him" kinds of stuff. For example, he's already being accused of going against his pledge of being a change agent by bringing in the same old people to run the show, to essentially re-create the Clinton administration (hopefully without the Lewinsky factor), although even that's more of a partisan complaint than anything, being as how Bush did his best to re-create his father's administration. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 05:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

As it says at the top of the page: This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama article. Good faith proposals to improve this article are not - and will not be - censored. Note, however, that the archived section above does not contain any such proposals. It does contain criticism of this article, implying that there is a problem with this article with respect to WP:NPOV, but rather than suggesting that this perceived problem be fixed, instead proposes to treat this article as establishing a precedent that should affect all other political biographies. Wikipedia doesn't work that way. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 19:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Donofrio v. Wells

Hello,

There's currently a case (Donofrio v. Wells) pending in front of the Supreme Court of the United States regarding Obama's citizenship. Maybe it could be included as a link here or in a subarticle. Also, I have no idea what it means. I just created the article because I was surprised Wikipedia didn't have one already. Tony (talk) 02:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Chronic Gambler Jet Schizo Donofrio's lawsuit is invalid, that's why it is not included. Jet Schizo claims Obama is not a Natural Born Citizen because Pop Obama was a British citizen. A Natural Born Citizen however, is anyone born on U.S. Ground. Regardless of Parents Country of Origin. Obama was born in Hawaii (USA). The specifics are simple, and the inclusion of a frivolous and failed lawsuit is not of encyclopedic value. --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 03:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, the wiki page for the lawsuit you created doesn't meet merit of being included. I have no idea how to remove the page, but I'm just making it know so someone else can fix it. --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 03:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Given the lawsuit is being considered by the Supreme Court, it would seem not to be invalid. Not only are you censoring the article, you're censoring discussion of the article and other articles. If Obamassiah was born in Hawaii, why has he spent $800,000 on legal defense rather than simply showing his birth certificate (not the certificate of live birth.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.179.114 (talk) 06:36, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

There's a process for nomination for deletion. That's not something I've done much, but I'm sure someone who reads these pages will know. Also, it seems like that guy arrived out of the blue (or the red) and hadn't read a blessed thing that's been written here about it. Or else he ignored it. The only reason for such an article at this point is a POV content fork. In fact, maybe I'll try a speedy delete and see what happens. That I think I can do. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

In fact, it's already nominated. Go to that page and make your opinion known! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The Court refused to hear the case without commenting. The court has to decide if it wants to hear one more he is not a citizen type case.[5] Edkollin (talk) 06:07, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

As noted down-thread, a Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories article has been created to provide a home for these fringey-but-notable issues. Lestatdelc (talk) 09:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Languages spoken

I've tried to find out whether Obama speaks any other languages beside English, through perusing Wikipedia, that is, but to no avail. As he went to school in Jakarta and had classes in Bahasa Indonesia, according to Early life and career of Barack Obama, and given his education, sophistication, cosmopolitanism, and multi-ethnic kin, it is certainly understandable that one may be led to wonder about that. Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I do believe he previously spoke whatever language they use in Indonesia, I have no source that I can easily find. Take it with a grain of salt. --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 01:51, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

This came up at the reference desk once. [6] Apparently, he is only fluent in English, but knows a little Spanish, Swahili, and Indonesian. Zagalejo^^^ 02:08, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

According to what my friend has told me… (who is a videographer -- see e/g his work here -- and who himself, this friend, taught English in Indonesia in the '70s, thereafter studied the language in California and now speaks it, and, according to his bio, had returned for 6 months in 1981 to do field research in Bali, Java and Sumatra) …Barack's sister Maya told my friend at a campaign event in the SF Bay Area that her brother Barack understands Indonesian well but is less fluent in his ability to speak it. Just tips me hat but then 〜on thought bows deeply … 02:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I see, thank you very much for answering my question. Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:48, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Obama Birth Certificate Issue

I think this horse has been beaten enough for now. :) --Bobblehead (rants) 21:31, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Why do you guys keep deleting it? It's a legitimate news story. I'm by no means saying he's guilty of anything but it's being covered on all major news networks now. What is this WikiChina? Doesn't this make us look like we are indeed trying to hide something? A lot of people who use Wikipedia take it as fact and we look pretty dumb not even mentioning it. There is mention of the McCain controversy on his page. I'm sure you'll find controversies (true or not) on most presidents. Why not just acknowledge that it exists and state that nothing has been proven. Do you think by leaving it off it will magically go away? All it shows is that we are being commies like they claim and it really discredits the entire page by totally leaving it out. My 2 cents. Cheers, Ryan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.180.54.191 (talk) 03:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC) It's a bogus, fringe story not worthy of wikipedia. Once the Supreme Court item is fully settled, the entire discussion might be worth a sentence or two just to state that it was a bogus story invented by Obama opponents. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:22, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Only if you get reliably sourced information that it was invented. Edkollin (talk) 08:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC) But likely not in his biography. Tvoz/talk 07:46, 7 December 2008 (UTC) How about relocating both the McCain info, as well as the outcome of this case, to the "Natural born citizen" article? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 08:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Should the supreme court refuse to take up Donofrio v. Wells the issue (as appears to be the case) it is not notable to that article either, just a failed lawsuit and a conspiracy theory. There is an article about the suit that is up for deletion and (despite my vote to keep) seems to be a losing battle. If the material belongs anywhere, it is probably in an article devoted to persistent conspiracy theories and/or lawsuits over Obama's citizenship. They will likely not go anywhere, but it is a sourceable, notable phenomenon in its own right that people keep dragging this up. We have articles about UFOs and pixies, might as well have an article about this. Plus, even though in reality it is farfetched and remote that a court would ever declare Obama unfit on account of his birth, the underlying issue is actually an interesting one and has never been adjudicated as far as I can tell, just assumed to be true. I know I'm conflating theories about his birthplace with those about eligibility that rely on the facts as generally accepted - it all seems like part of the same to me. Wikidemon (talk) 11:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Funny you should mention pixies, as that reminds me of a comment by attorney Joseph N. Welch during the Army-McCarthy hearings, whose accusations came to a similar pointless end. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 12:17, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Wikipedia is all about verifiability, not truth. It is being covered as a controversy in the media, and should be covered in this article.--Jojhutton (talk) 14:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Nonsense. This is Obama's biography. A frivolous lawsuit that obviously won't get anywhere has no biographical significance whatsoever. It only becomes biographically-significant in the totally unlikely event that the lawsuit actually leads to Obama being found ineligible for the presidency, or if Obama himself becomes embroiled in the case. Otherwise, any notability it may have concerns the plaintiff and possibly the court. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC) If the high court decides to hear this case, then the place for it would be the Natural Born Citizen article, since that's the issue being pushed. If the court actually rules Obama ineligible, then it would belong here, along with information about the ensuing national riots resulting from the court subverting the will of the people. If they don't do any of that, then it's nothing, it's irrelevant, and doesn't belong anywhere in wikipedia. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC) You are welcome to that opinion, but verifiability trumps your pesonal opinion.--Jojhutton (talk) 16:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Notability also figures into it. If the court decides not to consider the case, then where is the notability? Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Since it continues to be brought up in the media and on this talk page, notability has been established.--Jojhutton (talk) 16:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC) It continues to be brought up, yes. My particular references have been deleted from this talk page. I put up notice of a National PRess Corp discussion in regard to it that couldn't have been left on here for 5 minutes. Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:13, 8 December 2008 (UTC) Oops! I was wrong. I made my post at 9:28 [7] NawlinWiki reverted with no edit summary at 9:29 [8] Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC) You posted an entire copyrighted press release. I'm guessing it was reverted because it was a copyright violation (NawlinWiki is an administrator). The admin 1-button rollback feature does not provide a customizable edit summary. -- Rick Block (talk) 05:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC) It's not notable for this article. This is a biography of Barack Obama, not a collection of frivolous lawsuits that have his name on them. It might be notable enough for a proposed article on all the conspiracy theories and fringe Obama lawsuits being discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Donofrio v. Wells. Priyanath talk 04:22, 8 December 2008 (UTC) Continuing to argue this in the abstract appears to be pointless. Please propose an addition that meets the standards of WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV. -- Rick Block (talk) 16:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC) If he is going to be president then everyone must understand that this page can no longer be white washed. Understand that all of this comes with the job. There is no exception to it.--Jojhutton (talk) 18:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC) It isn't whitewashed. It also will not become a sounding board for every half-baked, right-wing, nutjob, tinfoil hat conspiracy that gets puked out of the blogosphere. The notion of Obama being foreign-born is a fringe conspiracy that cannot and will not be placed in the article. Reliable sourcing isn't the issue, nor is it relevant. Become friends with WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE, please. Tarc (talk) 18:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Again, focusing on a specific proposal would help. It's hard for me to come up with something that doesn't sound like a joke. Perhaps the thought is (not sure where): Despite publishing a copy of his birth certificate and confirmation by Hawaii's Director of Vital Records, rumors that Obama was not actually born in Hawaii or otherwise failed to meet the eligibility requirements for the presidency were circulated by a variety of right-wing sources and several specious lawsuits were filed attempting to block him from becoming president. I agree omitting this here is not white-washing. It simply has essentially nothing to do with Obama's biography. He was born in Hawaii. No reliable source questions that. It is certainly a fact that there are people who apparently don't believe this, but so what? -- Rick Block (talk) 18:45, 7 December 2008 (UTC) I personally don't really believe the rumors. But I have heard them a lot, and they got me curious. When I'm curious, I come to the one source of information that I can (almost) always trust to be fair and objective. If it really is a popular controversy (the fact alone that people keep trying to add it on this page proves that it is), it needs to be mentioned. Not to promote the rumors, but to do what Wikipedia does best: tell the facts.--Johnny Jupiter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.86.45.186 (talk) 20:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC) I'd say we wait until the case is settled, before adding it to the article. GoodDay (talk) 22:53, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Controversies appear on many biographies once they reach a level of public discourse which indicates that the controversy is important to the subject's life and that providing information on this issue would be helpful for those coming here to learn more about the subject. The question here, then, is whether or not this issue has reached that level of public discourse. I've seen segments on this on CNN, and the articles have popped up all over mainstream media, not just right-wing attack blogs. The article could probably use a sentence on this no unlike the one offered above, but with less opinion. The issue itself isn't that complicated, and the facts will speak for themselves. Also, I'm not sure why we need to wait for the case to be settled before we comment. Most controversies don't have clean ends, and having one isn't necessary for inclusion in an article.LedRush (talk) 23:58, 7 December 2008 (UTC) Has anybody checked the birth records of Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, J.Q.Adams, Jackson & Harrison (maybe even Van Buren)? None of them were born American citizens. Also, Chet Arthur? the Canuck? GoodDay (talk) 01:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC) How about Hamilton? He was born on St. Croix, knew he could never be president so he wanted to be king. Thank God for Tom Jefferson. L0b0t (talk) 01:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC) Or perhaps, thank Aaron Burr. GoodDay (talk) 01:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC) From Article II of the U.S. Constitution: "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; . . . ." Those guys thought of everything. :-)~ --Evb-wiki (talk) 01:53, 8 December 2008 (UTC) I knew there had to be a grandfather clause in there. GoodDay (talk) 01:54, 8 December 2008 (UTC) (undent) Just FYI, not all of the "natural-born citizen lawsuits" dispute that Obama was born in Hawaii and is a U.S. citizen. For example, the New Jersey lawsuit by Leo Donofrio (which will probably be dismissed by SCOTUS tomorrow) alleges that Obama was born in Hawaii and is a U.S. citizen, but nevertheless is not a "natural-born citizen" because he was born with dual citizenship. There's a Connecticut lawsuit that makes the same argument. I'll refrain from giving my opinion about it, but it's certainly a very different argument from the argument that Obama's unreleased long-form birth certificate may indicate a foreign birth.Ferrylodge (talk) 02:35, 8 December 2008 (UTC) I hadn't even realized this was an issue, so I did a very little digging. FactCheck.org has an analysis of the controversy that throughly demolishes the rumors and arguments that Obama's birth certificate isn't legitimate. Whether or not this article has a section on this controversy, I'd suggest we leave in the citation I've just added to emphasize the hard evidence supporting his natural-born citizenship. It may be the only way to permanently deflate any conspiracy theorists, at least on this one aspect of the issue. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:35, 8 December 2008 (UTC) The Factcheck "Born in the USA" thing is already in footnote #3, so I reverted.Ferrylodge (talk) 05:52, 8 December 2008 (UTC) The only "hard evidence" of his citizenship will be the presentation of a certified copy of his certificate to the proper authorities for verification. 99.9 % of "natural born citizens" in the U.S. would simply present it when required. In fact, we have to present it for a passport, to collect social security, and numerous other reasons. The U.S. President is required to be a natural-born citizen, and so should present his passport to the proper officials. Obama could make this issue disappear in 5 minutes. Why doesn't he? [9] Tundrabuggy (talk) 06:06, 8 December 2008 (UTC) According to this: he has and yet rumors persist. This seriously must count among the lamest conspiracy theories yet. No aliens, no mind control, no atomic bombs- just a bunch of bigots who don't know the meaning of the term sportsmanship. I would strongly suggest to all regular visitors of this page: just stop responding. Do not give the nuts the time of day and they will lose interest eventually. l'aquatique || talk 06:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC) It's not quite that simple, L'Aquatique. Barack Obama's short-form birth certificate has been posted online at Obama's website. However, a short-form is different from a long-form. Obama's short form was laser-printed and certified by the State of Hawaii June 6, 2007. People like Tundrabuggy (and Alan Keyes) are seeking a copy of the original long-form certificate prepared in 1961. So, go ahead and call it a lame conspiracy theory if you like, but also acknowledge that Obama has not released the long-form. Obama may have good reasons for not releasing it, and people may have no valid reason for demanding a look at it, but the fact remains that it is still locked up in a vault.Ferrylodge (talk) 06:31, 8 December 2008 (UTC) If you look at L'Aquatique's link, you'd see that the factcheck.org folks held the original long form birth certificate in their hands, photographed it, etc. So, actually, he has released it. --guyzero | talk 07:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC) No, that's incorrect. L'Aquatique's link says: "FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as 'supporting documents' to this article." The high-resolution photographs are of the 2007 laser-printed short-form. Fact-check touched and examined the original 2007 document. They have not touched or seen the 1961 long-form, which contains info like the hospital, the doctor, et cetera.Ferrylodge (talk) 16:07, 8 December 2008 (UTC) Look, it doesn't matter. A birth certificate is a birth certificate: it's a legal document that states a person was born in a certain place, at a certain time, to certain people. If that picture is of a short form birth certificate than I don't have a long form one because that's all the information I've ever seen on a birth certificate. I trust I don't need to have mine verified by the state before you'll believe me? l'aquatique || talk 09:59, 8 December 2008 (UTC) I am not questioning your honesty, L'Aquatique, nor am I questioning Obama's. I'm simply pointing out the facts. There is a long-form birth certificate that Obama has declined to release, showing the hospital, the doctor, and other info that is not on the short form. That's all I'm saying, and it happens to be true. Whether it's important or not is another matter (I'm not commenting about that).Ferrylodge (talk) 16:10, 8 December 2008 (UTC) The short form birth certificate is the only form that the State of Hawai'i (and most other states for that matter) will create for people that request a copy of their birth certificate and is accepted as proof that the long form birth certificate exists. Since the Hawaiian short form birth certificate includes the parents' names, his place of birth, date of birth, etc. it is accepted by all government agencies as proof of citizenship. All in all, this is just another conspiracy theory propagated by the tin-foil hat wearers and will never die now that it is out in the ether because like all conspiracy theory any evidence provided that contradicts the conspiracy theory is instantly labeled as a fraud and thus part of the conspiracy theory. Salon has a pretty good article on this:[10] --Bobblehead (rants) 18:39, 8 December 2008 (UTC) Wikipedia has an article on it. Mfield (talk) 18:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC) I think that if his birthplace would've even remotely been an issue, it would've been caught long before he began his campaign for Presidency. I don't think Barrack would've been allowed if in fact there was any flagging during his background check. I have faith in our security experts. ^^ --Ulterion (talk) 13:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC) I guess we may never know. :-) SCOTUS declined to hear Donofrio v. Wells. [11] --Evb-wiki (talk) 15:14, 8 December 2008 (UTC) As mentioned above, Donofrio v. Wells had nothing to do with where Obama was born. Donofrio's argument assumed that Obama was born in Hawaii, and that his father was a non-citizen. No matter what your position about this whole thing, we should at least try to get our facts straight.Ferrylodge (talk) 16:07, 8 December 2008 (UTC) There is no issue about either his birth or his citizenship. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:59, 8 December 2008 (UTC) I agree, there are hundreds of verified reliable sources that says he was born in Hawaii and is a legitimate natural-born citizen. The only thing notable about this are the people who cling to the theory that he was not born in this country or held dual citizenship, is a closet Muslim, in the hopes to keep him from becoming the next president. While the theories are notable in their craziness, they still don't belong in this biography. They are better included in either an election article or an article written on all the conspiracy theories floating out there on the blogsphear. Also, one comment on the whole long birth record. Why does Obama need to make it public for everyone to look at? It has been verified by a bunch of officials who have verified that it is legal and correct. Would you be ok if either your long form or short form, or in the middle form birth certificate be made public for everyone to see and verify that you are natural born? The correct answer is no most people, including you, are not ok with that. Everyone is in their right to keep people from viewing very personal records like that. So it is best to let this fade away. The election is over with. There is nothing to be gained for trying to continue this on. So lets just move on and let this theory fade away.Brothejr (talk) 18:25, 8 December 2008 (UTC) Brothejr, it's unclear who the "you" is that you're addressing. Anyway, I agree with you that birth certificate theories don't belong in this BLP, except maybe the footnotes. You say: "Why does Obama need to make it public for everyone to look at? It has been verified by a bunch of officials who have verified that it is legal and correct." Actually, here's what the Hawaii officials say: "'Unfortunately the way state laws are written we are not allowed to confirm vital information and vital records,' said Janice Okubo, a spokeswoman for Hawaii's department of health. 'I cannot confirm individual information because that is against the law.'"[12] Anyway, we should move on, but when people get their facts wrong it's okay to point that out.Ferrylodge (talk) 18:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC) Well that's good to know, because you are about to be corrected. All they meant by the above quotation is that they cannot release such information to the public, i.e. Berg, as he has no standing to demand or request to see the document. The director of Hawaii's department of health confirms that she has viewed the certificate and that it is valid. There was nothing in what Brothejr that was incorrect. Tarc (talk) 18:54, 8 December 2008 (UTC) The Hawaii official said she has "personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Senator Obama’s original birth certificate on record."[13] That does not describe the 1961 long-form in any way, nor does it say that the information in either the short-form or the long form is correct. Hawaii officials are forbidden to do that, as she explained: "'Unfortunately the way state laws are written we are not allowed to confirm vital information and vital records,' said Janice Okubo, a spokeswoman for Hawaii's department of health. 'I cannot confirm individual information because that is against the law.'"[14]. Is any of this important enough to mention in the main text of the present article? No.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:12, 8 December 2008 (UTC) Please, give it a rest. Confirming that they have it on record may not be precisely the same as confirming its contents, but it is remarkably close; the state wouldn't have Obama's birth certificate on record unless he was born there. No state keeps the birth records of people who weren't born there. There is literally no point in arguing this any further. Can you please, finally, at long last, stop? I think everyone here would rather talk about something else now. --GoodDamon 19:19, 8 December 2008 (UTC) The Alan Keyes lawsuit says otherwise: "The vault (long Version) birth certificate, per Hawaiin statute 883.176 allows the birth in another state or another country to be registered in Hawaii."[15]Ferrylodge (talk) 19:33, 8 December 2008 (UTC) (outdent) Let's stop beating a dead horse here and let the issue die in obscurity. Brothejr (talk) 19:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC) Sounds good to me. Anyone wishing to discuss the matter further can go to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Donofrio_v._Wells.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:48, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

List Of Campain Stops

An important list of campain stops would be a good edition to this article. Forteto42 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Forteto42 (talk • contribs) 15:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Not for this article, but if someone is that interested in doing it, a list article might be created and linked to the campaign article. That being said, I'm not sure how necessary such a list article would be.. Seems to be quite a bit of listcruft to me. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 17:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

How about working in some of the more important campaign stops into the prose at the Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 article? Seems like that would be the logical place for it. --GoodDamon 19:21, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

change?

It appears that in this article Obama has been referred to as african american, as a mixed race person myself i would find it offencive for anyone to call me anything other than mixed race simply becuase i am niether white or black, this needs to be changed as it is not actually correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joaswaahn (talk • contribs) 03:24, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

Already covered at great length. We go with reliable sources, not original research. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:32, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

He considers himself black, so I think it would only be polite to refer him as such.--Listen to your Princess, dear Wikipedians. (talk) 16:23, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Obama citizenship conspiracy theories

Following a discussion on the fringe theories noticeboard about how to deal with a metastizing series of articles and subsections relating to Obama's citizenship, Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories has been created to provide a home for these fringey-but-notable issues. Donofrio v. Wells and similar subsections of Andy Martin (U.S. politician), Philip J. Berg and Alan Keyes have been condensed and merged into a roundup of legal cases on this issue; see Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories#Litigation. I recommend that editors seeking to add such material should be politely but firmly steered in the direction of this new article, where such material can be corralled without exporting disruption to other articles. Also, if you know of Obama birth certificate or citizenship material that presently exists in other articles, please let me know so that it can be migrated into the new article. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:24, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

You might want to generalize that the "Obama conspiracy theories", as the Rezko and Blagojevich stuff will be coming out of the woodwork also. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 01:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

The citizenship conspiracy theories are in a class of their own; it's better to have a focused article rather than just a grab-bag of random conspiracy theories. If there is significant coverage of the Illinois issues than I'm sure we could look at creating an article on that topic. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:34, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Failure to understand electoral system

Point of accuracy: He will not be "president-elect" until the Electoral College meets and confirms it. They certainly will, but as of now he is the "presumptive president-elect." And don't start that crap that "the news says he's the president-elect and that's a valid source." Until they meet, he's not, and it doesn't matter how many people claim he is.Mzmadmike (talk) 17:26, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

No, that "crap" is a Wikipedia Policy. Grsz¹¹ 17:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Of course it is not wikipedia policy. However, this was discussed at length and we have a compromise that has kept the peace, so please see the archives.LedRush (talk) 17:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind...it looks like the consensus footnote has been removed.LedRush (talk) 17:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

There, I've restored the note that was there to ensure that these discussions never get off the ground again. Move along...nothing to see here.LedRush (talk) 21:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

A foot note is not to say that consensus cannot change, nor should it be used to stifle debate. I would support such a change. I would say that is 2 people in the building of consensus for changeDie4Dixie (talk) 22:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Looking at the previous discussion in the archives, it's clear that the preponderance of reliable sources are using the simple "president-elect", and the Presidential Transition Act of 1963 also defines the next president as "president-elect". It would take an overwhelming consensus, if that, to override reliable sources and acts of congress. Not going to happen. Priyanath ^talk 22:25, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Where are your souces (absent WP:original researched synthesis, Mzmadmike?

Note that the following is how things work, semantically: If you were at some point to become generally presumed to have been elected to the U.S. Presidency, what you then become called is the, yes, President-elect. (THEREFORE, use of the term presumptive President-elect would be entirely redundant in this situation. In other words, sure, if for some reason people were to stop presuming Obama were the president-elect, then people simply would stop using the term President-elect until there was one who was so presumed to be elected. Got it? Cf.: see Bush v. Gore, &cetera.)

The point of fact in this matter is that we simply can't throw out all those media sources, sir or ma'am; 'cause, cousin, Wikipedia ain't about The Truth -- but about reflecting prestigeous secondary sources, plain & simple.

1. Such as, I don't know, say The New York Times:
   Times Topics > People > O > Obama, Barack
   Barack Obama
   President-Elect of the United States
   Vice-Presidential Running Mate: Joseph R. Biden Jr.
2. Then, as a check to see if Wikipedia editors got this one reasonably right this time, let's check other prestigeous tertiary sources, e.g., The Encyclopaedia Britannica:
   Barack Obama
   president-elect of the United States
   in full Barack Hussein Obama, Jr.
   born Aug. 4, 1961, Honolulu, Hawaii, U.S.
   American politician who on Nov. 4, 2008, was elected the 44th president of the United States, defeating Arizona Sen. John McCain, the Republican candidate.
3. Or, for that matter, we can even check with the United States government itself, such as the Biographical Directory of the United States Congress:
   OBAMA, Barack, (1961 - )
   Senate Years of Service: 2005-
   Party: Democrat
   OBAMA, Barack, a Senator from Illinois; born in Honolulu, Hawaii, August 4, 1961[... ... ...]elected as a Democrat to the U.S. Senate in 2004 for term beginning January 3, 2005; elected as the 44th President of the United States on November 4, 2008.
4. And last but not least, we can check the private organization headed by the public citizen (and, um, presumed elected presidential candidate, viz., the President-elect) Mr. Barack Obama?: CHANGE.GOV: OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT-ELECT:
   YOUR ADMINISTRATION
   President-elect
   Barack Obama
   LEARN
   Barack Obama was raised by a single mother and his grandparents.[...]

Just tips me hat but then 〜on thought bows deeply … 22:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Ethnicity in first sentence

The fact that Obama is "the first African American to be elected President of the United States" should not be in the first sentence. It's an important fact, and ought to be in the lead, but putting it there implies it is of equal importance as him being President-elect. His ethnicity was not in the first sentence of the Featured Article version (which was, admittedly, written before he was elected). This is the only politics and government FA where an individual's ethnicity is mentioned in the first sentence.--Cúchullain ^t/c 21:37, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

"President-elect of the United States and the first African-American to be elected President of the United States" is really awkward. It sounds like two separate things, plus it is a list of two items that are dissimilar, one being a position and the other being a superlative. For clarity and flow we should cut out the statement that he is president-elect because it is fully implied by the statement that he is the first African-American to be so. I share Cuchullain's sentiment, though, that the fact of his being President is primary. But how to do that without unduly minimizing the rather stunning importance of his accomplishment? How about "B.H.O....is President-Elect of the United States. The first African-American elected to the position, Obama....(etc)"? - Wikidemon (talk) 21:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think it is as straightforward as you think it is. Consider it from this alternative perspective: there have been lots of US presidents, but Obama will be the only African-American president. From a certain point of view, being an African American president is more remarkable than becoming president - especially to Americans. Most reliable sources talk about the historic nature of this particular election, purely because of the ethnicity. I suggest that this is of equal importance to his status as President-elect, and perhaps even of more importance. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I have seen a small body of pan-african "scholarship" that indicate that he is not the first. Race is really not that important, or so I am lead to believe.I would have to say that I agree with Wikidemon here.Die4Dixie (talk) 22:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

I also agree with Wikidemon's suggestion, and Cuchullain's approach - two sentences to cover the two different points. Priyanath ^talk 22:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)