Talk:Barack Obama: Difference between revisions
Bigtimepeace (talk | contribs) →Changing of title: edit conflicts galore |
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:: Winner of the thread of the day. <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]]</strong>/<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 07:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
:: Winner of the thread of the day. <strong>[[User:Tvoz|Tvoz]]</strong>/<small>[[User talk:Tvoz|talk]]</small> 07:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
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:::The edit conflicts are going to be rather intense around then, and I'm sure some people will jump the gun and then get reverted, etc. etc. Rather silly really if you ask me. It might actually be good if those who don't particularly give a damn whether they are the one who makes the switch at noon avoid even trying to do so. I'm guessing someone will take care of it and then get their 44 seconds of Wiki fame. Maybe even a call from the President! Err, maybe not.--[[User:Bigtimepeace|Bigtimepeace]] <small>| [[User_talk:Bigtimepeace|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Bigtimepeace|contribs]]</small> 07:36, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
:::The edit conflicts are going to be rather intense around then, and I'm sure some people will jump the gun and then get reverted, etc. etc. Rather silly really if you ask me. It might actually be good if those who don't particularly give a damn whether they are the one who makes the switch at noon avoid even trying to do so. I'm guessing someone will take care of it and then get their 44 seconds of Wiki fame. Maybe even a call from the President! Err, maybe not.--[[User:Bigtimepeace|Bigtimepeace]] <small>| [[User_talk:Bigtimepeace|talk]] | [[Special:Contributions/Bigtimepeace|contribs]]</small> 07:36, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
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::::I'll beat you all by going early! Not. But seriously, how about locking the page from 10am-12n (EST) to avoid the problems. Then one of you admins can make the edit. [[User talk:Parler Vous#top|Parler Vous]] [[Special:Contributions/Parler Vous|(edits)]] 07:46, 20 January 2009 (UTC) |
Revision as of 07:46, 20 January 2009
This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama article. This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject. |
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To view the response to a question, click the [show] link to the right of the question. Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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This page is not a forum for general discussion about Barack Obama. Any such comments may be removed or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about Barack Obama at the Reference desk. |
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Redundant discussions
In case anyone is wondering if they have an original comment about one of the frequently-discussed issues for this article, here is a list of discussions at length which have taken place just in the past couple of months.
Race
- Talk:Barack Obama/race
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 47#Barack Obama is half-white
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Ethnicity in first sentence
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Media coverage of ethnicity controversy and the intro
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Mulatto, the term is Mullato
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#He's Multi-Racial.
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 43#Obama and race
Religion
Citizenship
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Supreme Court Controversy
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 45#Still no mention on the birth certificate?
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 45#Donofrio v. Wells
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#Unverified Birth Hospital Needs Revision and Reference
Full name
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 46#Article Name
- Talk:Barack Obama/Archive 44#Barack Hussein Obama JR, not II
Give this some consideration before deciding to start another one. Bigbluefish (talk) 14:24, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Please skim this page first (and ideally the FAQ) before starting a new discussion on the "president elect" designation, or Obama's race/ethnicity. You'll probably find there's already a section there where you can add your comments. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 00:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
- Is there an article or section related to the Transition Team? Chadlupkes (talk) 23:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
- The "Race/ethnicity" section has (presumably by "Wikidemon", the self-styled "owner" of this page) not just been consolidated or shifted to another already existing section: it has, in effect, simply been removed. The contents are no longer available unless one presses a special link to enter the "archive". Wikipedia guidelines explicitly forbid tampering with other contributors' material on a Talk Page. The current treatment of the "Race/ethnicity" section (rendering none of the contributions visible on the main Talk Page, effectively "hiding" it all inside an "archive") is a violation of these guidelines.Jakob37 (talk) 03:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- Anything that can be done to speed the loading of this talk page up, I'm all for it. It's taking forever to load, and old issues that have been discussed ad infinitum don't need to be here. It's hard enough to discuss current issues as it is. Dayewalker (talk) 03:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- In that case, there are several other "overly large" sections that could be archived. If User#1 thinks that Topic X is too long and boring, then that user may, without further ado, hide its contents inside an archive. But then User#2 thinks that Topic Y is too long and boring, so that user hides Topic Y's material inside an archive, although User#1 thinks it should stay visible. Is that how it's going to work?Jakob37 (talk) 05:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- In regards to the issue of African-American, mixed race, Black, designation by oneself vs. by others, etc., this talk page has spiraled completely out of control. I was rather miffed a day or two ago to find that my contributions, along with others, on the subject had, without any consultation, suddenly been stuffed into an archive, and now I am doubly miffed to see that the same subject has grown another head, even much larger than the material subjected to archiving, and yet nobody is archiving it this time -- quite UNFAIR. In any case, the more important point I would like to raise is that 95% to 99% of the contributions on these interconnected topics have no PARTICULAR connection to Obama; these issues are part of the socio-political nature of American (U.S.) life. Since there seems to be no lack of Wiki-editors who love to manipulate other people's contributions, may I suggest that all this material, instead of being archived (effectively out-of-sight, out-of-mind), be used to construct a separate article on "race attitudes in the U.S." or something to that effect (cf. my comment in "Wikipedia:Featured article review/Barack Obama" ). The Obama article itself should contain an appropriately brief discussion of Obama's relationship to these issues, followed by a hyperlink to the (proposed) article where these issues are described/discussed in the larger context that they deserve. And the Obama Talk-Page will then hopefully return to a focus on Obama himself. The way that Obama has dealt with these issues is not so different from the way thousands or even millions of other people have done.Jakob37 (talk) 08:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
69.134.20.90 (talk) 15:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC) i have come to notice that some of the people on this board are extremely racist and wont admit in the text of the article that obama is half white ..i understand the importance to some of the people on here that he be considered black but face facts he isnt.. he is listed as the first african american when in fact ,he isnt ..he might be the first half african american ever elected then when a true african american is elected you wont have to undo all the lies you have spouted about this one.this is afterall,a place where people come for knowledge not some general idea that is put forth by some people
- Your comments are totally off base from beginning to end. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC) bugs , nice brush off if i am so offbase then why isnt it mentioned anywhere in the text about his white hertitage..people are wanting to claim his citzenship but not the people who gave him the right to that citizenship his black father was not a citizen so why is everyone harping on his race and wont acknowledge the white side ..maybe if this source were more fair to other people there wouldnt be the rage about how a man with dual citizenship got elected president or about where he was born when anybody can have a birth certficate made up with about 30 minutes planning just a little research i can be anybody with a legitament birth certficate if you want to fair to the readers and to the man himself at least make it fair
- Have you bothered to read past the first paragraph? Like where it states that his mother was white? Oh, and have you found any reliable sources that don't call him "the first African American President"? Of course he's African American. He's also English American. But that last part is hardly news, as most every President has been European American. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC) yes i read the entire article and have seen lots of things about his life not published or ignored but the point i am making which you seem to be dodging he is only half and should be noted that way.. it is not as if it is hidden by him or anybody else if you were half italian 1/4 english and 1/4 russian would you want to be considered just russian ..he is english arabian and kenyan
- We describe him the way the reliable sources describe him. And this has been already discussed at length. Your comments bring nothing new to the discussion. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:46, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC) so you need to change the slogan from "the free encyclopedia" to the free " follow the masses rumormill" if you cant post truths about somebody
- First rule: Wikipedia bases its information on reliable sources, not on the "rumormill" and not on someone's opinion of the "truth". Second rule: Kindly put your 4 tildes at the END of your comments rather than the beginning. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
my apologies for posting incorectly ,but back to the main argument so you are saying that it isnt a reliable source that he is half white. if it is a reliable source it should be noted in the lead paragragh instead of half way down on one line69.134.20.90 (talk) 17:19, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
- We go by reliable sources, and the wording is proper on that basis. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Since I'm a bit intimidated by the attention this article receives, I'm not going to repeat an edit I've had to make several times in the past without some feedback. In the "Cultural and Political Image" section, it states: "With his Kenyan father and white American mother". This is a minor issue, but I think that "white" should be removed, simply because it is unnecessary. That he is of mixed ancestry is well-documented throughout the article. Originally, because I hate the whole concept of race, I wanted all mention of "black" (instead of Luo) and "white" (instead of English/American) removed, but as I am mostly satisfied with the White American article in how it addresses race perceptions in America, it works. The restating of it in the Cultural and Political Image section seems redundant if not obsessive. —GodhevalT C W 19:44, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
- I agree with the removal of the term "white", just as I wouldn't use "black" to describe Obama or his father. Since we are talking about the "Cultural and Political Image" section, I think describing his mother as European American would be appropriate. --Evb-wiki (talk) 19:52, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
- I was thinking it was redundant to mention ethnicity again at all - his father is listed simply as Kenyan, so the mother should be American. If there is need to mention ethnicity again, then either the used White American or European American are fine.—GodhevalT C W 20:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)
Criticisms
This section was closed in bad faith. Numerous questions were posed in this section which received ad hominem or personal attacks and no response. There is nothing more I can do. If another editor wants to raise the issue again, please see the discussion in the archive. I will no longer participate in such an adversarial environment in editing this article. Zoticogrillo (talk) 20:03, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
This is not a general talkforum - once you are able to articulate *what* you want including, start a new section and tell us what that it is. Continued vagueness in an attempt to trick editors into giving you carte blanche is going nowhere and is now verging on the disruptive. --Cameron Scott (talk) 12:16, 19 January 2009 (UTC) |
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That sure didn't seem very productive. I thought it was going somewhere a couple of times, but ultimately... nothing. It seems that we agree that criticisms should be included if it is verifiable and relevant. The election received so much coverage worldwide, that I believe we are all aware of the various "criticisms" that have been raised during campaigning, therefore listing them individually is not helpful. Nonetheless addressing this will be for the benefit of those in the future who wish to research the campaign, or who wish to understand popular perception of the president, or for those who just seek the convenience of having the most prominent criticisms listed in one place, with the useful links in the citations. Because of the similarity in the nature of these criticisms or accusations which have appeared in popular media, and because of the uses just mentioned, I still believe that the most plausible presentation of the content would be in a separate section. Zoticogrillo (talk) 09:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Total ad hominem. I actually have a strong positive bias toward Obama, but I'm not going to POV-push at all. I'm just a wiki- hobbiest who wants to improve the article in an objective way. I can't give any examples without first researching and identifying some, which requires time up-front. I'm not going to waste my time if I'm going to be confronted by an editing war with editors who are unable to analyze the content logically. Zoticogrillo (talk) 05:53, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
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Four citations???
"and became the first African American to be elected President of the United States.[122][123][124][125]"
Why do we need four citations for this one sentence alone? ScienceApe (talk) 04:53, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- The multiple cites might discourage people from changing the line to "multiracial" or "mulatto" every two or three days. PhGustaf (talk) 05:01, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Is that really necessary to prevent vandalism? Just revert their edits. ScienceApe (talk) 06:01, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Try reading the 50,000 words of past discussion on how "controversial," "untrue," "racist," blah, blah, the "African American" bit is, and you'll start to get a sense that it actually is necessary. :-(. LotLE×talk 09:02, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Obama and race
Closing this discussion that has been ground beyond dust form. Please see the answer to question 2 on this article's FAQ. --Bobblehead (rants) 11:25, 18 January 2009 (UTC) |
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Why is Mr. Obama referred to as "the first African American to be elected President of the United States"? Isn't he half white? Trent370 (talk) 07:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Trent, the average black person has a lot of european and native american blood in him/her. The average white person has a lot of african and native american blood in him/her too. Therefore, designations like "black" and "white" go mostly on physical appearance. Not genetics. Obama looks black, so we call him black. Vin Diesel looks white, so people mostly call him white, even though he's half black. Mariah Carey is 25% African, but she looks white so we call her white. ScienceApe (talk) 19:48, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Oh, Scjessey, enough with the Wiki-lawyering and red-herrings. I am not suggesting that the article should say something contrary to reliable sources. The preponderance of reliable sources (as if citing material in Wiki is a popularity contest of reliable sources) state that Obama is descended of an African father and an American mother. He is by definition, "an African-American" and "of African-American descent", according to more than (pick any number less than eleventy-billion), say 30 reliable sources. Why not try a little bit of simple compromise, that doesn't cost anything? And, the editor above who claims that my "specific suggestion...really does not make sense. Obama does not descend from African-Americans - he is one." is logical nonsensicality. If he is African-American (and he is) the only way he could so be, is if he were descended from African-Americans, or from Africans and from Americans. If A=B and B=C, then C must=A. I frankly don't care how he is refered to herein. But, we are taking about the insertion of one word and rearranging two others. That some object so forcefully to this simple compromise is telling. Future members of congress, me thinks. Newguy34 (talk) 20:21, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Since this has a) been rejected at every turn and b) we don't do that in *any* other article - why would we want to do it here? --Cameron Scott (talk) 00:17, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
President Barack Obama isn't half "African American". He is half African. Nevertheless, he is African American. LzqTAnFKVf7 (talk) 00:35, 18 January 2009 (UTC) Obama Momma = White Kansan Her nationality is American. Obama Poppa, African from the African nation of Kenya. This would make Barack Obama, Half American, Half African. Hes African-American. If you want to go further, hes Kansas-Kenyan. 'For the love of god.' --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 03:57, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Trent, please see WP:CONSENSUS. It's how Wikipedia makes editorial decisions. You don't have consensus here (in fact consensus is clearly against you), and no one has ever had it for the change you are proposing to make. There are roughly 8 people who disagree with you. Please drop this and move on because you are not convincing anyone and you are repeating yourself over and over while ignoring countervailing arguments. This is not a productive use of anyone's time. Sometimes you lose arguments when editing Wikipedia - it happens to all of us - and it's important to be able to drop the debate when it's clear your position has not won out.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:36, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
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middle name in infobox
Closing this perennial discussion to halt the inevitable descent into off-topic Bigbluefish (talk) 18:46, 19 January 2009 (UTC) |
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Obama has decided to use his middle name during the swearing-in ceremony, in a conscious effort to "reboot America's image around the world." -- This appears to outweigh the (old, and still ongoing) conscious use by some media types of his middle name to slant his image (implying that he's Arab when he's in fact Christian -- on top of fomenting ethnic prejudice along the way). I know there have been a gazillion discussions about these issues here, but this is an entirely new development. Obama realises that "hiding" his middle name would send the wrong message (just speculating on this bit: he's also probably aware that if he omitted the middle name he'd just get criticised the same way by the same people who are criticising him now for using it). Moreover, he realises that prominently and officially using his middle name is a positive thing. So far, this article agrees with those on both sides of the "aisle" who think his name should better be "hidden", or at least is not his public name. But the article subject himself has decided that "the world is ready for that message" and sees it as a way to reach out. I have never understood those who don't understand that the main task when confronted by people who try to slant him by "pointedly" using his middle name is to just go ahead and use his middle name and be even prouder of what America achieved in electing him. Obama understands. So, could we please follow Obama's own insight and example and adjust the top of the infobox to prominently use his full name, the one under which he's going to be sworn into office? Or are we going to keep succumbing to those who wrongly imply that there is anything wrong with the name Hussein? 78.34.145.54 (talk) 12:27, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
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just to let this clear
HE IS CHRISTIAN
Yes we know. --Cameron Scott (talk) 16:06, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Of course, it shouldn't matter anyway. Religious affiliation (or lack thereof) isn't supposed to have anything to do with government. -- Scjessey (talk) 16:25, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
Succeeding George W. Bush (info box)
How can it be true when currently he is not the president? It will be only true from 20-th of jan. It should be deleted. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.131.246.10 (talk) 18:58, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
The info box informs the reader he is the current President-elect of the United States, and is to be taking office on the 20th. 96.251.75.240 (talk) 06:07, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
Transition process
I would guess that we are going to be plenty busy on the 20th - in the same way that Obama has a transition process - it might be as well for us to discuss and consider the changes that we need or might need to make on the 20th. So that the reader can see a smooth changeover here. As far as I can see the article is basically structural sound and most of the context can be updated by removing the "elect" bit from the lead sections. Are there any major changes we need to think about? --Cameron Scott (talk) 19:39, 16 January 2009 (UTC)
- Yeah; the media seems particularly interested at the moment in the way breaking news propagates onto Wikipedia. Should we perhaps prepare a version of the article post-inauguration in advance? Is there an official moment when he can be said to be the President - at the beginning or the end of the day or the beginning or the end of the ceremony? You're right that the structure will basically remain intact, but at a glance, the first paragraph will need reorganising, the infobox changed, a succession box added and probably various templates and categories. Bigbluefish (talk) 12:27, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
- According to the CotUS, Bush's term ends at noon Tuesday Obama can't excercise his Presidential powers until he's taken the oath. It's probably not worth while to look up the status of the Presidency during those few minutes.
- On Tuesday the article will be deep enough in questionable changes that it won't be possible to correct things for the edit conflicts. PhGustaf (talk) 00:48, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- Obama becomes President at 12:01 EST on January 20th. (that is, noon plus one minute, not midnight plus one). At that point we should change the article to reflect that fact. I imagine there will be about 1000 simultaneous edits to that effect. 24.201.116.45 (talk) 23:51, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- It looks like Obama is supposed to take the oath at around 11:56 a.m., a few minutes before actually becoming president.[4] According to the 20th Amendment he becomes president at noon exactly, not 1 minute after. He takes the oath ahead of time so there is no discontinuity. I imagine that the minute people see Obama take the oath on TV, they will start editing the article to say that he is president instead of president-elect (I had this idea myself but checked first), but it will be 4 minutes too early. 207.241.239.70 (talk) 06:31, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Obama's race
See answer to question 2 on this article's FAQ. --Bobblehead (rants) 11:27, 18 January 2009 (UTC) |
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Linux?
why is the Linux article pasted in here? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.21.226.229 (talk) 17:02, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
- It was either a test edit or vandalism, now reverted in either case. -- Rick Block (talk) 18:22, 17 January 2009 (UTC)
where? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Apa aff os (talk • contribs) 19:41, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Short-term Protection?
We should consider putting the page under full protection on, say, Tuesday and Wednesday. Not only are the vandals and well-meaning new or inept editors going to be very busy then, but the enthusiastic experienced editors are too, and there are going to be edit conflicts and quick reedits up the wazoo.
Best to get a quick talk-page consensus for any change first. It's not exactly a tragedy if the page isn't updated before His Own Band finishes "Hail to the Chief". PhGustaf (talk) 05:45, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- On the other hand, there are going to be a lot of editors set to punch "save page" as soon as they hear "So help me God". Maybe we should give the winner a pony. PhGustaf (talk) 05:52, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
why no gun stance in political positions
gun debate is a very big topic in usa.After he won the elections gun sales soared and yet not a single mention of his gun policies in his political positions.Yes it exists in the main article but this should be included in the main article
- This article can't contain every position, so if you can't find a position here, you may be able to find it at Political positions of Barack Obama. --Bobblehead (rants) 11:18, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
so the gun politics is not as imp to be added in the main article.Comeon just say you dont want to show his anti gun stance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manchurian candidate (talk • contribs) 17:20, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- The bottom line is that Obama's stance on guns is not very important went taken in the context of his entire life, which this article seeks to summarize. Also, I think you will find his stance on guns is more nuanced than "anti-gun". -- Scjessey (talk) 17:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
yeah you tell that to yourself.guns sales soared when he won,O i get it it was not politically important. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Manchurian candidate (talk • contribs) 04:45, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- Gun sales go up whenever there is a new president in the US, i would assume it goes up even more whenever a democrat wins/is doing good, because they tend to be on the side of more gun control more often then the republicans. Durga Dido (talk) 07:18, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
President Barack Obama
Barack Obama is the first Bi Racial president not African American. Bi Racial is 2 Races, Multi Racial is more than 2 races & trans racial are adopted children. Bi racial & Multi racial people are a race of their own.
In the winter time you can see his white skin shine through. Anyway even though President Obama does not acknowledge himself publicly as Bi Racial people like me see right through him.
- This has been discussed AD INFINITUM. Please go and understand the basics of social construct ethnicity and the definition of African American. Timrollpickering (talk) 18:43, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- Please see this thread, and bear in mind that this page is for discussion of improvements to the article, not a forum for general discussion of the subject.--JayJasper (talk) 18:47, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Pre-inaugural controversies?
In reviewing the article, I am wondering if a "Pre-inaugural controversies" section should be included? This could consolidate all of the current controversies surrounding the Obama appointees such as Leon Panetta, Timothy Geitner, Roland Burris, Bill Richardson, Eric Holder, etc. I think this would strengthen the flow of the article. Trent370 (talk) 20:00, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- Not here. This, as you ought to know by now, is a biography of the whole man - his life and career - not appropriate for small details like these. Try looking at Presidential transition of Barack Obama, where you will find this material - and note that that subtitle wouldn't fly anyway, as such items are incorporated into the proper text areas, not set aside as a laundry list of so-called controversies. Tvoz/talk 20:07, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- and/or Presidency of Barack Obama or Barack Obama Cabinet depending on what you want to add --Cameron Scott (talk) 20:10, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- That is interesting. On the Clinton page, all of the controversies are listed, many as standalone sections. I suppose this is part of ad hoc nature of Wikipedia. Trent370 (talk) 20:22, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed, it is - it's almost like software updates as the wiki evolves, new articles or articles that suddenly attract a lot of attention conform more to the current model of "what an article should be" than older articles that already have well formed structures. --Cameron Scott (talk) 20:31, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- Excellent...as part of that evolution, I strongly suggest that a "Pre-inaugural controversies" section. Nothing in Wikirules appears to prevent it, and it would be an excellent step forward in the Wiki-evolution. Trent370 (talk) 21:44, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- em.. <thinks> <thinks> no. You are welcome to suggest it (but I suspect if you keep suggesting it in section after section, that will become increasingly less welcome), but you'll never get agreement here to put it in. --Cameron Scott (talk) 21:48, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- And for the record, Bill Clinton is far from an ideal article. At the same time, Obama hasn't been impeached for any of his "controversies". None of the controversies in Obama's career so far will be remembered in history nearly as much as any of the Clinton controversies with their own sections (although those sections are not necessarily appropriate either). Bigbluefish (talk) 23:35, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- The Clinton page is quite good. It is fairly neutral, and does a fair job of outlining his many controversies. The Obama page would do well to mirror this page. Trent370 (talk) 00:22, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, neither article's job is to outline one's many controversies but the life as a whole. The Clinton article is quite good but so is this one. Name a "pre-inauguration controversy" which is similar in weight to Troopergate and we can consider a section about it. Bigbluefish (talk) 00:41, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- The problem with having a section just for controversies is that it attracts more controversies, most likely ones that do not fit in the article, because in the greater scope of his life the controversy is not that notable.If it was to be added it should be added at the part where it talks about the selection of parts of his government, not as a separate section.Cameron Scott pointed you to the correct article where this should be posted, which would be Barack Obama Cabinet as in that article it is much more notable.It would be just the same as if we added that obama choose someone to be on his basketball team that has cheated in one of his basketball games before,is it notable in the greater scope if his life?No, but it might be notable on the article Obama's basketball team 01:28, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- There are several problems with this idea. Most obvious of all is the notion that any of these are "controversies" at all. They are not. Secondly, this is a summary style article. Documenting insignificant details like these would be undue weight. There are other issues, but these are the most important. -- Scjessey (talk) 01:51, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- Reliable sources call them controversies. This is not my interpretation. They are also lead news stories (not insignificant details). Trent370 (talk) 05:13, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Tuesday edit
I believe that the edit tomorrow replacing the president elect table with the President of the United states should be done a bot that will edit it at 12 noon and the page should be put on full protection. The Same should be done for Joe Biden at 11:56 est. because that is when they will take the oath. Hereford 22:23, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- The same could be done to George Bush and Dick Chaney's boxes to show that they've been succeeded by Obama and Biden. Hereford 22:29, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
Note:I am going to put this on Template:Cent.Hereford 23:08, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- Why not just have a human do it? There is no rush and there is no deadline. If we leave it unprotected, someone can come to the page, see that GWB is still "president" and then fix it. Isn't that why we are here? To help people do things like that? Protonk (talk) 23:35, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- Ok. NVM, im not ready for wikipedia be taken over by robots. :) Hereford 23:39, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed. Frankly, anyone who needs to know who the POTUS is in the five minutes after noon on Tuesday and can only think of looking to Wikipedia deserves to be mildly misinformed. Bigbluefish (talk) 23:46, 18 January 2009 (UTC)
It's not a big deal. rootology (C)(T) 00:05, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- Yup. A couple threads ago I suggested the page be closed Tuesday to keep it from becoming a mess. Nobody agreed. Fine. It's going to be a mess on Tuesday, but the page will return to its usual stability by Thursday, with no harm done. PhGustaf (talk) 00:17, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- I agree. Closing (Full-protect) the page is better solution than several users attempting to edit at once, which might cause edit conflict. We can ask one admin to change the page. w_tanoto (talk) 21:48, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
The Same should be done for Joe Biden at 11:56 est. because that is when they will take the oath. I don't care that much about what the articles will say for four minutes, but more widely for the presentation of info in other articles I thought the Veep term still switches at noon. There is precedent for even Presidents taking the oath early (Hayes in 1877 took it privately on Saturday March 3rd because the inauguration wasn't until the 5th and there were fears of an attempted Democrat coup) and the swearing in of the Veep-elect early seems to be just about getting this bit out of the way before the big ceremony, not a formal handing over of power in advance. Timrollpickering (talk) 02:10, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- Indeed. We swear in the VP first to provide official continuity in case it takes two or three minutes for the new president to get all the words out. (I remember quaking in my boots watching Dan Quayle be acting president between 12:00 and 12:03 on Jan 20, 1989 :-)) Co149 (talk) 05:36, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- from what I've heard, the president will assume the office at noon no matter if he said the oath on time or not. So, I don't think there was acting president in that era. To return to the topic of tomorrow edit, I would say we choose one of us to edit this page, GWB, biden, etc, because if we don't do that, everyone of us will want to edit it. w_tanoto (talk) 10:59, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- You are correct. The term of the President and Vice President begin at noon on January 20 whether or not they have taken the oath of office. They try to administer the oath a few minutes before noon for two reasons: first, so the new President is fully sworn in when his term officially begins; second, to serve as a symbolic moment for the public. Because the oath usually concludes right at about noon, it can cause people to incorrectly assume that the oath is what begins the new President's term. MplsNarco (talk) 16:37, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- from what I've heard, the president will assume the office at noon no matter if he said the oath on time or not. So, I don't think there was acting president in that era. To return to the topic of tomorrow edit, I would say we choose one of us to edit this page, GWB, biden, etc, because if we don't do that, everyone of us will want to edit it. w_tanoto (talk) 10:59, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
See this page for the actual schedule--Biden is sworn in at 11:46 and Obama at 11:56. The actual transition is at noon exactly per the 20th Amendment. I imagine a lot of folks will edit the page when they see the ceremony on TV but will be a few minutes too early. I concur that it doesn't matter much (assuming everything goes as planned). 207.241.239.70 (talk) 06:41, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Civil rights movement impact
I'm somewhat surprised that there's essentially no discussion of the impact of Obama's election on the civil rights movement. The link to the American civil rights movement is almost buried, and the impact statement limited to a quote. For what is clearly a watershed moment in African-American attitudes, this seems to be extremely little. Simesa (talk) 01:35, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- See [5] and [6] for starters. Simesa (talk) 02:14, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- And, today, the superficial [7] Simesa (talk) 12:35, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- Note - the impact seems to be summed up in the now-ubiquitous quote "Rosa sat so Martin could walk, Martin walked so Obama could run, Obama ran so our children can fly!" (source indeterminable). Simesa (talk) 13:09, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
- To put it simply, this is a Biography of Barack Obama. Some of his earlier actions before becoming a president could be construed as working for civil rights and that is covered both in his early years section and the related daughter article. Yet, what you are talking about is a broadly construed concept that would be better dealt within in the civil rights article then here due to the fact that this is a biography of the man, not everything that is attached to him. Brothejr (talk) 13:13, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Net Worth
The article states that the Obama's net worth is $1.3m. Then it proceeds to mention his $4.2m income and $1.6m house. Unless the Obamas have a hefty mortgage and is spending a terrific some of money he is worth considerably more than $4.3m. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cadentsoul (talk • contribs)
- Actually, to be specific it states the Obamas' net worth was... estimated to be $1.3m. If you know of a more recent estimate the article would certainly benefit from it. However it's probably more likely than you think that his net worth is near or even below the value of his house. As a high-shooting politician he will have committed every resource available to him to the cause of winning the election. A mortgage on the house is a logical move, and he's unlikely to have sat on a great deal of cash during his $670m presidential campaign. Oh, and he gives in the region of a quarter of a million to charity annually.
- Again, new sources are very welcome but the best that can be done otherwise is to present the best range of evidence. Bigbluefish (talk) 21:49, 19 January 2009 (UTC)
Can We Change That Picture
Because that is a really creepy one. We have to have more under fair use. KP317 02:26, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- There will be an official portrait real soon now, which we will be able to use because federal stuff isn't copyrighted. Pleae, someone, pick him a decent tie. PhGustaf (talk) 02:31, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- Er, the current one is the (latest) official portrait. Mfield (talk) 03:13, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- I thought the pic was fine...--Justin Herbert (talk) 06:38, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- Personally I don't like that picture either,i remember the old one that in my opinion was better.The current picture in my opinion just doesn't represent a President, thats the only reason I don't like it.In most cases changing a picture because person x doesn't like it or person z thinks another is better,is just a matter of opinion, so i didn't bring this up.Let's just hope the next official picture will just be more presidential. Durga Dido (talk) 06:50, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- I thought the pic was fine...--Justin Herbert (talk) 06:38, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- Er, the current one is the (latest) official portrait. Mfield (talk) 03:13, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Requested edit
The article says Obama will be sworn in at noon. That is wrong, he will be sworn in at 11:56 AM [8] and become president 4 minutes later. 207.241.239.70 (talk) 06:48, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- I don't think about.com is a reliable source, All the reliable sources i can think of say its at noon, also your link says "Approximate" time 11.56. Durga Dido (talk) 07:00, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- Actually, every source I've heard says he'll take the oath at 11:56 (or just before noon). But he won't become President until noon either way. Parler Vous (edits) 07:11, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
Changing of title
If no one minds, I would like to be the one who changes "President elect" to "current President of the United States of America" at 12:00 ET tomorrow. Is this okay? 71.132.226.69 (talk) 07:27, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- I wouldn't count on it. That'll be a first come, first served sort of thing. Dayewalker (talk) 07:29, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- Winner of the thread of the day. Tvoz/talk 07:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- The edit conflicts are going to be rather intense around then, and I'm sure some people will jump the gun and then get reverted, etc. etc. Rather silly really if you ask me. It might actually be good if those who don't particularly give a damn whether they are the one who makes the switch at noon avoid even trying to do so. I'm guessing someone will take care of it and then get their 44 seconds of Wiki fame. Maybe even a call from the President! Err, maybe not.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:36, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- I'll beat you all by going early! Not. But seriously, how about locking the page from 10am-12n (EST) to avoid the problems. Then one of you admins can make the edit. Parler Vous (edits) 07:46, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- The edit conflicts are going to be rather intense around then, and I'm sure some people will jump the gun and then get reverted, etc. etc. Rather silly really if you ask me. It might actually be good if those who don't particularly give a damn whether they are the one who makes the switch at noon avoid even trying to do so. I'm guessing someone will take care of it and then get their 44 seconds of Wiki fame. Maybe even a call from the President! Err, maybe not.--Bigtimepeace | talk | contribs 07:36, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
- Winner of the thread of the day. Tvoz/talk 07:33, 20 January 2009 (UTC)
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