Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Coordinators: Difference between revisions
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Roger Davies (talk | contribs) →ACR and PR review tallies: new section |
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I've jotted down some [[WT:MHSTT#Ideas from WikiConference NYC 2010|ideas from WikiConference NYC 2010]] at the strategy think tank; feedback there would be very appreciated. [[User:Kirill Lokshin|Kirill]] <sup>[[User talk:Kirill Lokshin|[talk]]] [[User:Kirill Lokshin/Professionalism|[prof]]]</sup> 04:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC) |
I've jotted down some [[WT:MHSTT#Ideas from WikiConference NYC 2010|ideas from WikiConference NYC 2010]] at the strategy think tank; feedback there would be very appreciated. [[User:Kirill Lokshin|Kirill]] <sup>[[User talk:Kirill Lokshin|[talk]]] [[User:Kirill Lokshin/Professionalism|[prof]]]</sup> 04:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC) |
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== ACR and PR review tallies == |
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As discussed above, here are the ACR and PR tallies for the periods Jul-Dec 2090 and Jan-Jun 2010. I'm on holiday so I'm not around to dish out any awards, but I suggest award periods to correspond with the tally periods. |
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:{|cellpadding=2 cellspacing=0 border=1 style="border-collapse:collapse;" class="sortable" |
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|- |
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| width="260pt" | Username || width="80pt" | ACR<br />Jul-Dec 2009 || width="80pt" | PR<br />Jul-Dec 2009 || width="80pt" | Total<br />Jul-Dec 2009 || width="80pt" | ACR<br />Jan-Jun 2010 || width="80pt" | PR<br />Jan-Jun 2010 || width="80pt" | Total<br />Jan-Jun 2010 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Abraham, B.S.]] || 21 || 17 || 31 || 16 || 1 || 17 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Alexandru.demian]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 2 || 0 || 2 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Alexikoua]] || 0 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Amore Mio]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Anotherclown]] || 3 || 2 || 5 || 22 || 3 || 25 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Auntieruth55]] || 3 || 2 || 5 || 25 || 7 || 32 |
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|- |
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| [[User:AustralianRupert]] || 39 || 14 || 53 || 58 || 27 || 85 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Benea]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Blackeagle]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Brad101]] || 7 || 3 || 10 || 8 || 0 || 8 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Bradjamesbrown]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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| [[User:Brambleclawx]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Brianboulton]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Buckshot06]] || 3 || 3 || 6 || 3 || 1 || 4 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Buggie111]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 3 || 3 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Burningview]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Carcharoth]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 1 || 2 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Catalan]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Ceranthor]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:ChoraPete]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Cla68]] || 2 || 1 || 3 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Climie.ca]] || 1 || 1 || 2 || 2 || 0 || 2 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Cplakidas]] || 0 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 1 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Cromdog]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 3 || 0 || 3 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Cuprum17]] || 0 || 2 || 2 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Dana boomer]] || 8 || 0 || 8 || 10 || 2 || 12 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Dank]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 14 || 1 || 15 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Dapi89]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:David Fuchs]] || 0 || 2 || 2 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:David Underdown]] || 2 || 1 || 3 || 3 || 0 || 3 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Dhatfield]] || 3 || 1 || 4 || 3 || 0 || 3 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Doncram]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Ed!]] || 2 || 1 || 3 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:EdJohnston]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Ejosse1]] || 0 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:EnigmaMcmxc]] || 0 || 1 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Eurocopter]] || 3 || 0 || 3 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:EyeSerene]] || 3 || 0 || 3 || 2 || 1 || 3 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Farawayman]] || 3 || 1 || 4 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Fifelfoo]] || 3 || 4 || 7 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Finetooth]] || 0 || 2 || 2 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Fnlayson]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Fvasconcellos]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Gaia Octavia Agrippa]] || 0 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Georgejdorner]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 3 || 0 || 3 |
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|- |
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| [[User:GraemeLeggett]] || 1 || 2 || 3 || 3 || 3 || 6 |
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|- |
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| [[User:GregJackP]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:GregorB]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Hartfelt]] || 0 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Hawkeye7]] || 1 || 1 || 2 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Hchc2009]] || 0 || 2 || 2 || 2 || 3 || 5 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Hlj]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 2 || 2 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Ian Rose]] || 17 || 10 || 27 || 19 || 8 || 27 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Jackyd101]] || 1 || 3 || 4 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Jayen466]] || 1 || 2 || 3 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Jim Sweeney]] || 0 || 2 || 2 || 5 || 2 || 7 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Jim101]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 2 || 0 || 2 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Jinnai]] || 0 || 7 || 7 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Joe N]] || 53 || 0 || 53 || 23 || 0 || 23 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Jrcrin001]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Juliancolton]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Justin A Kuntz]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Kevin Myers ]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Kirill Lokshin]] || 0 || 4 || 4 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Kirk]] || 0 || 2 || 2 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Kumioko]] || 0 || 1 || 1 || 6 || 0 || 6 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Kyriakos]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Labattblueboy]] || 0 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Laurinavicius]] || 0 || 3 || 3 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:LeadSongDog]] || 0 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:llywrch]] || 0 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 1 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Magicpiano]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 2 || 2 || 4 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Marine79]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 2 || 2 |
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|- |
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| [[User:MBK004]] || 4 || 2 || 6 || 10 || 3 || 13 |
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|- |
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| [[User:McComb]] || 0 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:MisterBee1966]] || 4 || 2 || 6 || 7 || 1 || 8 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Mm40]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Monstrelet]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Montanabw]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Necessary Evil]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Newm30]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Nick-D]] || 18 || 12 || 30 || 19 || 20 || 39 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Nimbus227]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:NJR ZA]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Parsecboy]] || 8 || 0 || 8 || 11 || 1 || 12 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Patar knight]] || 0 || 3 || 3 || 0 || 1 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Patton123]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:pber26]] || 0 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Per Honor et Gloria]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Piotrus]] || 0 || 2 || 2 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Pkkphysicist]] || 0 || 2 || 2 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:R.D.H. (Ghost In The Machine)]] || 3 || 1 || 4 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Ranger Steve]] || 1 || 1 || 2 || 2 || 2 || 4 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Redmarkviolinist]] || 4 || 1 || 5 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Redtigerxyz]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Rin tin tin 1996]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 1 || 2 |
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|- |
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| [[User:RM Gillespie]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Ryan4314]] || 2 || 1 || 3 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:saberwyn]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 4 || 2 || 6 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Shell Kinney]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Shimgray]] || 0 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:SidewinderX]] || 2 || 0 || 2 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Simon Harley]] || 2 || 2 || 4 || 1 || 1 || 2 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Skinny87]] || 4 || 5 || 9 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Steven1969]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Sturmvogel 66]] || 9 || 2 || 11 || 24 || 1 || 25 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Sumanch]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:The Bushranger]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 12 || 0 || 12 |
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|- |
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| [[User:The ed17]] || 14 || 0 || 14 || 15 || 2 || 17 |
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|- |
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| [[User:The Land]] || 0 || 1 || 1 || 1 || 0 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:TomStar81]] || 30 || 0 || 30 || 85 || 1 || 86 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Tony1]] || 6 || 0 || 6 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Wandalstouring]] || 5 || 0 || 5 || 2 || 2 || 4 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Wiki-Ed]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Woody]] || 3 || 2 || 5 || 0 || 1 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:XavierGreen]] || 0 || 0 || 0 || 0 || 1 || 1 |
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|- |
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| [[User:Yannismarou]] || 1 || 0 || 1 || 0 || 0 || 0 |
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|} |
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The periods are based on the closing date of ACRs and the archiving dates of PR. It quite easy now to work out tallies quarterly, so the next period would be Jul-Sep 2010 (awarded in time to be fanfared in the appropriate Bugle). |
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Obviously, you'll have to work out which awards to give whom, and someone will have to physically award them. The awards data will have to go into the next Bugle. The purpose after all is to encourage past reviewers to review again and to incentivise those that have never done it. |
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Incidentally, a point lost in the data. MBK and Eurocopter have done a great deal of the ACR clerking and closing: they deserve recognition for this. While we're on the subject, the B-class reviews are done by a surprisingly small number of people. They probably also deserve recognition is someone can trawl through the page history to pick uyp the regulars. [[User:Roger Davies|<span style="color:maroon; font-variant:small-caps">'''Roger Davies'''</span>]] <sup>[[User talk:Roger Davies|'''talk''']]</sup> 09:34, 29 August 2010 (UTC) |
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Revision as of 09:34, 29 August 2010
Handbook
Handbook
Template loop detected: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history/Coordinators/Handbook
ACRs for closure
All A-class reviews are eligible for closure 28 days after they were opened, or 5 days if there is a clear consensus for either the promotion or non promotion of the article under review. Any A-class review filed on or before 17 June may be closed by an uninvolved coordinator. The following ACRs are ready to be closed by any non involved coordinator:
Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/SMS Rheinland - OMT article with sufficient support -MBK004 12:35, 9 August 2010 (UTC)- Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/USS Massachusetts (BB-2) - OMT article with sufficient support -MBK004 16:08, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Borodino class battlecruiser - OMT article with sufficient support -MBK004 15:13, 16 August 2010 (UTC)- Hello, Is anybody able to close these or am I about to do three involved closures? -MBK004 18:16, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- Bit short on time tonight, but if no-one has by tomorrow morning I'll do all three then (when my boss isn't looking). Ranger Steve (talk) 22:07, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- Drat, my boss must have heard me. Sorry, just got a phone call asking me to go to an event this morning. Not going to be at a computer. Ranger Steve (talk) 06:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- Considering that these articles have sat here for 12, 6 and 4 days. I have (in work as this is posted) gone ahead and made involved (as a fellow OMT member) closure of these three reviews as successful. I have not commented at all on each of these reviews and have made the requisite attempts to get an uninvolved coordinator to close before undertaking this course of action. -MBK004 03:05, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- No dramas from me with this. It had to be done. I am thinking of stopping my involvement with reviewing ACRs so that I can help with the closing. I could then just focus on reviewing at B class and GAN. AustralianRupert (talk) 07:30, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Considering that these articles have sat here for 12, 6 and 4 days. I have (in work as this is posted) gone ahead and made involved (as a fellow OMT member) closure of these three reviews as successful. I have not commented at all on each of these reviews and have made the requisite attempts to get an uninvolved coordinator to close before undertaking this course of action. -MBK004 03:05, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Drat, my boss must have heard me. Sorry, just got a phone call asking me to go to an event this morning. Not going to be at a computer. Ranger Steve (talk) 06:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- Bit short on time tonight, but if no-one has by tomorrow morning I'll do all three then (when my boss isn't looking). Ranger Steve (talk) 22:07, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- Hello, Is anybody able to close these or am I about to do three involved closures? -MBK004 18:16, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Discussion
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1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 |
Strategy think tank organization
If anyone has a bit of free time, there's a discussion going on about how the new "Strategy Think Tank" should be organized that could use some opinions from more than just the three of us currently involved. :-) Kirill [talk] [prof] 03:24, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
Collaboration with the Smithsonian Institution
I'm currently involved in setting up a Wikimedia/SI collaboration, and I think that MILHIST could potentially play a significant role in the effort; I've started a discussion at WT:MILHIST#Collaboration with the Smithsonian Institution, and any comments there would be very welcome. Kirill [talk] [prof] 18:02, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Flagged revisions and the Military history Project
I'm aware that its only in its trail stage, but I was wondering if I might start a discussion on the matter of flagged revisions to establish two important points:
- Where you guys stand on the matter of the use of flagged revisions, and
- Should we establish some sort of guideline(s) for their use within our project should the measure be adopted?
I for one feel that flagged revisions are not worth implementing in any respect; I think they dilute the already diluted interpretation of "The free encyclopedia that anyone can edit", but mine is but one opinion in this matter, and having a sense on where everyone else stands would be appreciated as well. On the matter of guidelines for the use of flagged revisions, I think that if flagged revisions must be used they should be limited to the military BLP articles within our scope. For all other articles, I think that semi-protection should be used instead. How about the rest of you? Where do you stand on the matter? TomStar81 (Talk) 02:45, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that the main point of flagged whatever is protecting BLP material. As someone who's watched the promises come and go over the last ... good lord, it's almost 4 years now ... my plan is not to care until it's actually here in a non-trial form. - Dank (push to talk) 03:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- P.S. I meant the discussions have been almost 4 years, it'll be 3 years for me in November. - Dank (push to talk) 03:31, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think this is out of our scope. The use of flagged revisions ought to be determined for all articles over here, not at Milhist. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 03:29, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- I know, but if they are implemented we can at least exert some control over where they end up applied within our article's scope (ie: "Flagged revisions should be used only in cases where consensus emerges that the use of flagged revisions is in the best interest of the article. In cases where flagged revisions are determined to be unneeded semi protection should be used instead.") so as to keep a handle on what they are used for. Now like you pointed out Ed, this is outside our scope specifically, but if they do decide to incorporate pending changes as policy then we can determine how our project will interpret the policy - essentially, we can observe the "spirit" of the policy rather than the "letter" of the policy. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:51, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that discussion of flagged revisions needs to be undertaken at the Wikipedia-level. However, as one comment it has caused problems in the World War II article - the large number of rejected changes by IP editors to that article mean that the watchlist system no longer really works for it as its possible for other edits to be made in between the IP edits. Nick-D (talk) 06:38, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed; flagged revisions/pending changes/whatever it's called at the moment is not really something that can be accepted or rejected by individual projects. Having said that, I do agree with Tom's point that the feature is really more suited for BLPs and other articles where there are concerns about BLP material in the text; indeed, that's the main context in which I support its use.
- Nick, your experience with the WWII article would certainly be valuable input when the results of the trial are evaluated; you should probably bring it up in the relevant central discussions. Kirill [talk] [prof] 15:43, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Will do. I've since turned flagged revisions off in the article and moved it back to semi protection. Nick-D (talk) 08:00, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- I've posted comments at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Feedback#World War II Nick-D (talk) 08:21, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Will do. I've since turned flagged revisions off in the article and moved it back to semi protection. Nick-D (talk) 08:00, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that discussion of flagged revisions needs to be undertaken at the Wikipedia-level. However, as one comment it has caused problems in the World War II article - the large number of rejected changes by IP editors to that article mean that the watchlist system no longer really works for it as its possible for other edits to be made in between the IP edits. Nick-D (talk) 06:38, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- I know, but if they are implemented we can at least exert some control over where they end up applied within our article's scope (ie: "Flagged revisions should be used only in cases where consensus emerges that the use of flagged revisions is in the best interest of the article. In cases where flagged revisions are determined to be unneeded semi protection should be used instead.") so as to keep a handle on what they are used for. Now like you pointed out Ed, this is outside our scope specifically, but if they do decide to incorporate pending changes as policy then we can determine how our project will interpret the policy - essentially, we can observe the "spirit" of the policy rather than the "letter" of the policy. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:51, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps we should move this to the main talk page and see where the rest of the project members stand on the matter. This would also allow us the options of adding a note about the discussion to the current events template and adding something to the bugle to see about getting additional input. TomStar81 (Talk) 19:59, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see this as a matter for the project to consider, at this point. If the feature makes it out of a trial stage, and if it still resembles the current one at that point, and if the main policies on its use allow any discretion as to its use, then there would be something worth discussing; at the moment, however, all that we would accomplish would be to insert the project into a high-level political debate, which would have no real benefits and any number of drawbacks. Kirill [talk] [prof] 22:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Fair enough. We'll take a "wait and see" approach and, well, wait and see what happens :) Hopefully the proposal will be -if not dropped entirely - then at least retooled to be more specific about when and where this type of protection get used. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:49, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- I've recently applied pending changes protection to an article where I'd otherwise have sprotted. Something of an experiment - I think clearer guidelines on where to use the different levels would be useful. EyeSerenetalk 10:56, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Fair enough. We'll take a "wait and see" approach and, well, wait and see what happens :) Hopefully the proposal will be -if not dropped entirely - then at least retooled to be more specific about when and where this type of protection get used. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:49, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see this as a matter for the project to consider, at this point. If the feature makes it out of a trial stage, and if it still resembles the current one at that point, and if the main policies on its use allow any discretion as to its use, then there would be something worth discussing; at the moment, however, all that we would accomplish would be to insert the project into a high-level political debate, which would have no real benefits and any number of drawbacks. Kirill [talk] [prof] 22:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
¡Viva España!
So, Spain has officially won the World Cup. As per my personal policy, this calls for beer!
Also, my condolences to Team England (and Team USA), except not really.
From your friend and former fellow coordinator, Cam (Chat) 03:43, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- To be fair to the USA, football just wasn't our national pastime. Now if they were playing football instead of football, then we'd have own them. In any case, thanks for the drink; having lost - twice - to ghana, I really need to drown my sorrow. Actually I think most of the soccer loving USA fans need a drink right now. Oh well, here's to the next world cup (And to officials who actually count our goals :) TomStar81 (Talk) 06:07, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well at least the best and fair team won this year (not Fabio Grosso and Marco Materazzi) YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 06:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Meh - I'll keep my comments about the overpaid primadonnas in our least successful national team to myself (I prefer a real sport). Congrats to Spain though :) EyeSerenetalk 07:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Tom, that's because no other major country plays "our" football. :P I was rooting for the US and the Dutch from the beginning, so I'm glad both did well. The refs need more help, whether in video replays or extra men to watch for that stuff... Thanks for the condolences, Cam (except not really).
- @ES - cricket isn't a "real sport." Just saying. :-) —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 07:30, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well, if by 'sport' you mean something that takes less than a day to play or requires body armour... EyeSerenetalk 08:46, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Cricket involves body armour ... which is nearly all I know about it. Roger Davies talk 13:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Heh, true I guess though only for certain very important parts of the body... EyeSerenetalk 13:10, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Cricket involves body armour ... which is nearly all I know about it. Roger Davies talk 13:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well, if by 'sport' you mean something that takes less than a day to play or requires body armour... EyeSerenetalk 08:46, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Meh - I'll keep my comments about the overpaid primadonnas in our least successful national team to myself (I prefer a real sport). Congrats to Spain though :) EyeSerenetalk 07:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well at least the best and fair team won this year (not Fabio Grosso and Marco Materazzi) YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 06:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
I can see where this heading now:
- Englishman: Oh, it's Cricket. Marvelous game, really. You see, the bowler hurls the ball toward the batter who tries to play away a fine leg. He endeavors to score by dashing between the creases, provided the wicket keeper hasn't whipped his bails off, of course.
- American: Anybody get that?
In all seriousness though, cricket is not a game I understand, so I couldn't evaluate its position as a 'real sport'. The only cricket I am familiar with is the kind that makes that soothing chirping noise at night, and that is always been good enough for me :) TomStar81 (Talk) 09:02, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- You know, that's not a bad explanation. US football, football, cricket, bog snorkelling... any excuse for a beer really :) EyeSerenetalk 13:01, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- And cheese-rolling - a great favourite in Gloucester (pronounced Gloster, if anyone's interested). Roger Davies talk 13:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Don't let your wife hear that, ES – she might ban you from watching all sports! ;) @Roger, I see people running down a hill. Not sure when the cheese is rolled... but it looks fun nonetheless. :-) —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 20:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- They chase the cheese. I once had a go at it in Yorkshire - I mainly remember a feeling of impending doom as one's body accelerated faster than one's legs. Still, we got to eat the cheese afterwards :) EyeSerenetalk 22:04, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- I hated that feeling in PE in high school where you knew you were falling forward and tried to run faster to compensate for it but you were already going as fast as your feet could carry you so the only thing left to do was brace for the impact of the fall which inevitably hurt more than you thought it would because the forward momentum also left you with some manner of friction burns in addition to the cuts and or bruises you got from falling and then ricocheting off the ground at least once before coming to a full and complete stop on whatever surface you were fortunate or unfortunate to have landed on. It was one of the major reasons I never really got into sports, just didn't have that kind of endurance for the team. And if I didn't have that kind of endurance for the team, then there is no way I going to have that kind of endurance for the cheese. (Unless its macaroni and cheese, and even then it would have to be really good MaC :) TomStar81 (Talk) 07:11, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- C'mon guys, you're missing the one true sport. And those accidents hurt a lot more... Ranger Steve (talk) 07:31, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Nope – the best sport is over here. The only time you can purposely and deliberately smack something as hard as you can at one of your friends and not get yelled at for it. ;) —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 07:39, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- No no, you're getting confused with cricket again - much harder balls too. But I'm afraid if it doesn't have wheels, I'm not interested. Shame I live in the worst country in the world for cycling.... Ranger Steve (talk) 18:00, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Nope – the best sport is over here. The only time you can purposely and deliberately smack something as hard as you can at one of your friends and not get yelled at for it. ;) —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 07:39, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- C'mon guys, you're missing the one true sport. And those accidents hurt a lot more... Ranger Steve (talk) 07:31, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- I hated that feeling in PE in high school where you knew you were falling forward and tried to run faster to compensate for it but you were already going as fast as your feet could carry you so the only thing left to do was brace for the impact of the fall which inevitably hurt more than you thought it would because the forward momentum also left you with some manner of friction burns in addition to the cuts and or bruises you got from falling and then ricocheting off the ground at least once before coming to a full and complete stop on whatever surface you were fortunate or unfortunate to have landed on. It was one of the major reasons I never really got into sports, just didn't have that kind of endurance for the team. And if I didn't have that kind of endurance for the team, then there is no way I going to have that kind of endurance for the cheese. (Unless its macaroni and cheese, and even then it would have to be really good MaC :) TomStar81 (Talk) 07:11, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- They chase the cheese. I once had a go at it in Yorkshire - I mainly remember a feeling of impending doom as one's body accelerated faster than one's legs. Still, we got to eat the cheese afterwards :) EyeSerenetalk 22:04, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Don't let your wife hear that, ES – she might ban you from watching all sports! ;) @Roger, I see people running down a hill. Not sure when the cheese is rolled... but it looks fun nonetheless. :-) —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 20:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- And cheese-rolling - a great favourite in Gloucester (pronounced Gloster, if anyone's interested). Roger Davies talk 13:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Testing the water
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I was quite happy to give up on this and leave it well alone in the hope it might slowly die, but the great Blablaaa wikidrama shows no signs of abating. It is now spread across no less than 2 wiki talk pages (Neutral POV Noticeboard and our own talk page, which has the longest continuos thread I think I've ever seen), at least one article talk page (at length on Talk:Operation Charnwood) and about half a dozen user talk pages.
The list of people who have fallen out with this user is long (and rapidly lengthening). I believe that most of these users have been able to look after themselves, but it has quite obviously been a stressful ride for most, which is evidenced in many of the posts (ok, I don't know this for definite, but it would certainly stress me out). I gave up on trying to help him a week or two ago, and really couldn't be bothered to have any more to do with it (despite his sudden switch to attacking me), but now User:Chaosdruid, who has spent a very long time trying to reach a compromise, is suffering more and more attacks, and Blablaa's forum shopping is now starting to make User:EnigmaMcmxc appear as if he is some sort of anti-German revisionist historian. I think this has come to a point where enough is enough; there really has been too much systematic abuse of other editors (several of whom have genuinely tried to resolve the dispute amicably and have given Blablaaa far too much of their time), too much forum shopping (cleverly trying to dress the same point up in different clothes) and too much bitching, whining and woe is me on the various talk pages (he just claimed that Chaos Druid is harassing him). I'm sure that this will quickly endear me even more to Blablaaa, but I can only remain neutral for so long in front of such disruptive behaviour.
I know that several people have now had way more than enough of this issue, so I'm sorry to bring it up again, but I felt it was worth raising here. I'm not into wiki dramas, but Blablaaa's effect on the project as a whole is starting to have some fairly negative connotations that I don't think we should ignore. I'm worried we might start losing editors because if it, and certainly any sort of "fact checking" benefit that Blablaaa might have is easily outweighed by the endless effort that editor's need to go to to work with him. Does anyone have any other opinions on the matter? Ranger Steve (talk) 19:01, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Gentlemen, I feel the time has come to take the drastic step of moving this issue to the arbitration committee. I see no end in sight for Blablaa's disruptive editing, yet his occasionally useful contributions make it difficult for the administrators and for the coordinators to effectively keep blablaa in check with the policies and guidelines on sight. It is clear by the multiple threads highlighted above that attempts at both mediation and consensus are not working, so I would like to refer the matter to the arbitration committee for two reasons.
- First, the committee should be able to place restrictions on Blablaa's editing which will make it much easier for us to lock down on his disruptive behavior when it pops up. Attempts at doing this have thus far had limited results; the last time an indefinite block was imposed it was lifted three days later due to complaints that ran contrary to consensus. If the committee moves to restrict blablaa's disruptive editting with sanctions then it should be easier for us to block him and keep the articles and the POV down.
- In the case of the second reason, the committee should be in a position to limit or prohibit blablaa's editing of the German articles, which I think would result in one of two possible outcomes: he will either find another niche and contribute constructively without the need to add or debate POV German issues with the rest of us, or he will ignore the committees warning and edit anyway which would allow those of us here with admin privileges to block him and revert the contributions as they occur. Note that in both cases, power would be restored to the admins and the coordinators to better govern the matter of the disruptive editing.
- Before going to the Arbitration committee though I want to hear about alternatives that could be implemented. I'm growing tired of watching my editors get harassed by this guy, and IMO we are out of options to deal with this peacefully, but I am willing to listen to anyone else's ideas on what our next move should be. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Generally speaking, the Committee is unlikely to accept the matter for consideration in the absence of a prior user conduct RFC, so that should be the first step. Kirill [talk] [prof] 21:49, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- maybe tomstar should show me any diff which can be considered german POV , so maybe tomstar you give me one? Blablaaa (talk) 05:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- and honestly maybe it would be ok to go somewhere with neutral admins then i will show about 50 diffs showing wrong accusations by ranger enigma chaosdruid, and so on. I will show one diff: what they claimed then i will show a dif:f where i ask for a proove and no proof followed then i will show some diifs: showing what they did. But then tomstar you will also search sanctions and restriction for them ? Iam interested if i show what people claimed and said and how much they lied and disrupted wiki with this, are you then willing to treat them like you want to treat me? I also intent to raise and issue regarding systematic bias of milhist. I asked one time for neutral help and got support and 3!! milhist editors came into the discussion and tried to argue against their decission. Iam prepared for showing several accusation and insults agsint me. Iam also prepared for showing evidence for systematic bias. The only reason why i have problems on the articles is because i dont except allied bias. I showed that sources were misused and got immediatly support by neutral editors. I would never get this support and milhist. The reason for that is obvioius. Iam hope that the committee has enought time and judges like a neutral "court". The diffs and 1000 wrong accusations against me are enought to proof the unfair behaviour against me. But please consider not blocking me until i had the chance to speak to neutral committee Blablaaa (talk) 05:16, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- We can simply start with tomstar giving me the edit which is german POV. Please show me any diff. Blablaaa (talk) 05:18, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't been following what's going on with this, and frankly I don't really care. But the way the above post is written and a cursory glance at the discussion tells me four things:
- Blablaaa needs to learn how to clearly convey his ideas, because I don't enjoy deciphering his words.
- A user conduct RfC would be a good idea.
- In this RfC, Blablaaa should supply these claimed diffs instead of just stating he can "show about 50 diffs". Claimed evidence != real evidence.
- Blablaaa needs to read and understand WP:TLDR.
- As a side note, I hold Ranger in very high regard. To see him so frustrated by a single individual told me a lot about the individual, even before I perused the discussion. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 05:59, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- An alternative to RFCU/ArbCom is to take this to AN/I; see what the consensus there is and whether an uninvolved administrator will intervene. AN/I can and does often also impose editing restrictions (usually topic or interaction bans). It will probably be much quicker. Roger Davies talk 06:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that there had already been an ANI discussion? —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:24, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yep, at WP:AN, back in April. It can always be raised again, Roger Davies talk 06:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think I was confused by a comment in the WT:MILHIST discussion that basically said "it is at ANI", but now I'm pretty sure that was referring to a different civility-related discussion. My bad, thanks for the clarification! —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:49, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yep, at WP:AN, back in April. It can always be raised again, Roger Davies talk 06:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that there had already been an ANI discussion? —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:24, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- An alternative to RFCU/ArbCom is to take this to AN/I; see what the consensus there is and whether an uninvolved administrator will intervene. AN/I can and does often also impose editing restrictions (usually topic or interaction bans). It will probably be much quicker. Roger Davies talk 06:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't been following what's going on with this, and frankly I don't really care. But the way the above post is written and a cursory glance at the discussion tells me four things:
- We can simply start with tomstar giving me the edit which is german POV. Please show me any diff. Blablaaa (talk) 05:18, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- and honestly maybe it would be ok to go somewhere with neutral admins then i will show about 50 diffs showing wrong accusations by ranger enigma chaosdruid, and so on. I will show one diff: what they claimed then i will show a dif:f where i ask for a proove and no proof followed then i will show some diifs: showing what they did. But then tomstar you will also search sanctions and restriction for them ? Iam interested if i show what people claimed and said and how much they lied and disrupted wiki with this, are you then willing to treat them like you want to treat me? I also intent to raise and issue regarding systematic bias of milhist. I asked one time for neutral help and got support and 3!! milhist editors came into the discussion and tried to argue against their decission. Iam prepared for showing several accusation and insults agsint me. Iam also prepared for showing evidence for systematic bias. The only reason why i have problems on the articles is because i dont except allied bias. I showed that sources were misused and got immediatly support by neutral editors. I would never get this support and milhist. The reason for that is obvioius. Iam hope that the committee has enought time and judges like a neutral "court". The diffs and 1000 wrong accusations against me are enought to proof the unfair behaviour against me. But please consider not blocking me until i had the chance to speak to neutral committee Blablaaa (talk) 05:16, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- maybe tomstar should show me any diff which can be considered german POV , so maybe tomstar you give me one? Blablaaa (talk) 05:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Generally speaking, the Committee is unlikely to accept the matter for consideration in the absence of a prior user conduct RFC, so that should be the first step. Kirill [talk] [prof] 21:49, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually it did also go to ANI in July. Anotherclown (talk) 14:36, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- What is RFC? Blablaaa (talk) 07:38, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- A Request for Comment. It enables the community to examine user conduct and make recommendations. Roger Davies talk 07:48, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- What is RFC? Blablaaa (talk) 07:38, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
(od) I've completely washed my hands of Blablaaa and have no interest in contributing to anything he's involved in. I'll make an exception for ANI/RfC though. EyeSerenetalk 08:05, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think an option would be if i stop editing for a while. At the moment iam collecting data to finally going to some admins and discuss the subtle bias editing of some user and the "protection" offered by admins. Iam pretty confident regarding the outcome. But iam afraid that a "possible block" would hinder me. Though i dont believe i will get blocked because i did nothing to justify a block. Furthermore people look much worse then me ( at least for neutral eyes). So i think its a good option if you postponed your attempt to block me until i brought the case, regarding what happens on milhist ww2, to the correct place. This would mean you spare some time and achieve the same result. At the moment my major interesst is eliminating the bias and this will only happen after some comittee judged this. So i dont care in charnwood or whatever. After this you can do whatever you want. Your points will look less valid after this anyways. If i dont edit ( including talk ) this is the same effect of a block so i guess this would be good deal. You immediatly stop my edits and iam safe that i can bring my report to some kind of court. Blablaaa (talk) 08:09, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I completely understand EyeSerene, and much like Ed's observation of myself (cheers Ed!), your obvious frustration is a fairly good litmus test. I'm personally more inclined toward RFC at the moment. While not opposed to ANI I'm in no rush to get any sort of results (it just can't happen with this user) and it's been there plenty of times before (there was a brief discussion there related to this drama about incivility, sorry Ed, forgot to mention that). Added to which, ANI can often turn into quite lengthy, bitter and unorganised disputes. RFC is the next step in seeking more formalised resolution and will (hopefully) let us all lay our opinions out in a slightly more organised way. In the long term it may also be better for further mediation processes (bearing in mind what Krill says about Arbitration). Ranger Steve (talk) 08:24, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'd suggest a formal process like a RfC. Based on previous discussions of this editor, an ANI post will quickly turn into a very long and difficult to follow discussion with accusations being hurled around in all directions. This will probably not lead to the situation being resolved as it would be difficult for an admin to reach a conclusion. In contrast, using a RfC would impose discipline on the discussion and make it easier for uninvolved editors to reach conclusions on what's going on. This will be of benefit to Blablaaa (as he will be able to make statements and respond to other editors' statements in an easy to follow manner) and other involved editors (as they will have an opportunity to state their case and relate experiences). Nick-D (talk) 08:49, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that an RfC/U is a better option than ANI and will establish the groundwork should other routes prove necessary. I have a couple of minor reservations: one, that participation is often limited to the involved parties; and two, that the RfC doesn't lose focus on user conduct and become a rehash of the various content disputes. However, hopefully it'll be productive.EyeSerenetalk 08:57, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Did anyone notice that i already explained that i see no value in discussing my behaviour and my future here? I want to finally report in detail the alledged bias . For this i need some time to collect data. Its also high likly that this is the end of my editing . You can plan your RFC anyway but you simply could let it and accept my "deal" which means you get exactly want you want. Blablaaa (talk) 09:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- That's a good point EyeSerene. I'd hope there would be enough involved parties to make it worthwhile though, but there is a danger that it could easily degenerate with this user. Ranger Steve (talk) 09:18, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- So... what next? Blablaaa has indicated that he sees no point in participating in an RfC. I'm against process for process' sake, but given his other comments in this thread it night be worthwhile anyway. Those of us who've been dealing with this since last year (when he first started contributing as an anon) have seen him come and go before, and personally I really don't want to be back here again in a few months' time with nothing resolved. EyeSerenetalk 14:26, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Likewise. Can't say I'm surprised that Blablaaa sees no value in it; admittedly there'd be no point in doing it if Blablaaa just left, but my crystal ball tells me we'll probably have to do this all over again if we don't take formal steps. That RFC rule about 2 users contacting the individual on their talk page to seek dispute resolution may fail us though - unless they can be backdated? Ranger Steve (talk) 17:05, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- The RFC certification criterion includes attempts to resolve the dispute on any talk page involved in the matter, not just the user's own talk page; from a procedural standpoint, anyone involved in the dispute on either the project pages or the article pages could potentially certify, and it's not uncommon for a dozen editors to certify in the case of a large dispute. Kirill [talk] [prof] 02:18, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Likewise. Can't say I'm surprised that Blablaaa sees no value in it; admittedly there'd be no point in doing it if Blablaaa just left, but my crystal ball tells me we'll probably have to do this all over again if we don't take formal steps. That RFC rule about 2 users contacting the individual on their talk page to seek dispute resolution may fail us though - unless they can be backdated? Ranger Steve (talk) 17:05, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
maybe a good step would be talking directly to me because i said i could stop edting. But you prefer to ignore me, ^^ how matured... I am willing to stop participating until i reported my case in full detail to a comittee. And by the way if you finally do this RFS stuff would it be possible that a german editor takes part this would make conversation muhc more fluently and i would be able to explain the issues very detailed and short in my nativ language.Blablaaa (talk) 17:33, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- @Rangersteve. I'm disgusted beyond words. Completely appalled.
- @TomStar81. In regards to your wall of text, you sir are hardly neutral here. You are a friend of Nick-D's (the admin who abused his tools by blocking Blablaaa 5 times). You said: "..the last time an indefinite block was imposed it was lifted three days later due to complaints that ran contrary to consensus." That is not true. The community decided that your friend Nick's block was bad. Nick, (like I said on AN) abused his tools plain and simple. Are you calling the community liars? Admin User:Jéské Couriano over turned Nick-D's block with his edit summary stating "consensus is block is bad" as seen here. Are you also calling Jeske a liar? Please try to be honest and accurate. You said: "I'm growing tired of watching my editors get harassed by this guy". Which editors? Do you mean your buddies from MILHIST? Nick? Enigma? Eyeserene? Ed? Rangersteve? Who exactly? What, you're tired because many (Enigma etc) edits/sources are questioned?? And you got upset? It's completely normal to question edits that do not correspond with sources. It's not a German POV and it's not disruptive. It's the correct thing to do to ensure NPOV is achieved. I am growing very tired of hearing "disruption", and civility and POV being used as excuses (in regards to Blab) to distract from the truth and to shut the door on open discussions. I have zero energy for political wiki games that I see too many editors playing on wiki. I'm not saying you are doing this. I'm speaking in general. However, I'm sorry, but I do not believe you are here in good faith. I've spent hours going through your history. I honestly don't trust you.
- @Tomstar81. Please also provide evidence. Give me the difs to prove your allegations in regards to a German POV? We need evidence.
- I'm deeply concerned at the large number of editors posting here, nearly all of whom have had disagreements with Blablaaa in the past or who are close friends of admin Nick-D. Nick-D, Eyeserene (buddy of Nick's), Tomstar81(buddy of Nick's), Ed (buddy of Nick's and Enigma) and RangerSteve. These are hardly a group of neutral editors.
- An RFC could be good as it would allow neutral editors to judge fairly. We need neutral outside input and not the MILHIST editors who have biased issues with Blablaaa. It would also be good if editors were able to speak honestly and freely without fear. Many of the wiki policies (CIV,NPA,AGF) are often abused by some to instil fear or to prevent folks from speaking openly, and I think that hurts the project as a whole. It's a real tragedy that Wiki does not operate the way the real world does. If wiki was more like the real world, we'd accomplish so much more through open dialogue without the fear. Caden cool 04:26, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm relatively sure that I have never interacted with Enigma before, thanks. When I come into a dispute, I don't allow friendships to cloud my judgment. I don't really care that Blablaaa was blocked by Nick before and it was later overturned; it has no impact on my reasoning. If my friend was wrong, then I will either tell them as much or I won't comment. I'm not going to defend a poor decision simply because a friend made it.
- I'm confused that you are including Ranger there. He certainly was a neutral party, at least before he tried to bridge the divide but got tarred and feathered for his trouble.
- "An RFC could be good as it would allow neutral editors to judge fairly." -- Good, we're all on the same page! We need new editors, ones who have not been party to the plethora of past disputes, to come in and provide neutral voices to hopefully build a bridge between the two sides. If that can't be done, or if one side is 'correct' (for lack of a better word), then hopefully they will be able to determine that too.
- "It would also be good if editors were able to speak honestly and freely without fear" -- Fear of ... what? After what happened to Ranger when he tried to come in as a neutral editor, I was certainly 'fearful' of entering this dialogue. Otherwise, I don't see what you have to be afraid of unless you start attacking other people. The pendulum only swings so far on either side; one is free speech, the other is NPA. Go past a certain point and you will be blocked. So, why would you be fearful if you aren't throwing ad hominem remarks at other people? —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 05:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- @theEd17. "It would also be good if editors were able to speak honestly and freely without fear" -- Fear of ... what? Fear of retaliation from the abusive boot stomping civility/censorship police, for speaking the honest to God truth. And no, I'm not talking about people cussing or being vulgar or using CAPS. I'm talking about good editors being punished for speaking honestly and openly.Yes, politics do play a role on wiki whether or not people want to believe that or not. Some play the political game well (off wiki of course) and use cleaverly disguised false reasons to silence the opponent on wiki. (examples:an honest remark/observation gets turned into something its not by calling it incivility, lack of AGF, a NPA violation, thus illegal blocks get handed out) It's a real tragedy that Wiki does not operate the way the real world does. If wiki was more like the real world, we'd accomplish so much more through open dialogue without the fear of retaliation from the abusive boot stomping civility/censorship police. Caden cool 06:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
(od) I think it would be unfortunate if this page turned into yet another extension of the wider dispute. If no-one else has done so, I'll try to find the time to file an RfC/U later today. Can I respectfully suggest that we save further comment for that venue? EyeSerenetalk 07:31, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- @EyeSerene. No. No. No. Please do not file an RfC/U. You are not a neutral admin here. A report should be filed by an unbiased, neutral party, which you clearly are not. Caden cool 07:48, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is no requirement that only uninvolved parties can initiate RFC/Us. As they form part of the dispute resolution process they're actually well suited for involved parties to help them resolve the dispute. Nick-D (talk) 07:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I expected this from you Nick so I'm not surprised. You are a very involved party (and as you know I don't trust you from past experience) and so it's not helpful. We need a fair, unbiased, neutral party. It's the only way for justice to be judged fairly. Caden cool 08:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- What? Anyone can initiate a RFC/U; I don't see why we need "a fair, unbiased, neutral party"? We need neutral editors to participate, yes, but not to begin. I also can't understand your attack on Nick, seeing as his comment was all facts? See through your hatred, anger, or whatever it is, and read what people (and you) are writing, dude... —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 08:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I expected this from you Nick so I'm not surprised. You are a very involved party (and as you know I don't trust you from past experience) and so it's not helpful. We need a fair, unbiased, neutral party. It's the only way for justice to be judged fairly. Caden cool 08:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is no requirement that only uninvolved parties can initiate RFC/Us. As they form part of the dispute resolution process they're actually well suited for involved parties to help them resolve the dispute. Nick-D (talk) 07:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
@Ed. "See through your hatred, anger, or whatever it is, and read what people (and you) are writing, dude..." Please do not attack me. I have read what Nick said and I responded honestly without the allegations you've made. I want a fair RFC/U to be filed. Is that too much to ask for? I do not deserve to be abused by you for asking. Caden cool 08:35, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- My point was that I don't see why a fair RFC/U requires an uninvolved editor to read through all the reams of text to find diffs and be able to summarize the problem. Regarding Nick, that wasn't intended as an attack... "hatred" was probably a tad too strong of a term to use. I apologize. I just don't see why you attacked Nick for a statement that consisted of pure fact. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 08:43, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
My apologies to Caden, but I think your understanding of RfC/U requirements is faulty. I'd rather not be doing this - I've got far better things to do with my time - but I really think we've reached a point where there's no choice. I've started to put together a draft at User:EyeSerene/Sandbox/RFC draft. I haven't done one of these before so any input is welcome (especially to the "Evidence of disputed behavior", "Applicable policies and guidelines", "Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute" and "Users certifying the basis for this dispute" sections). However, please bear in mind that the purpose of a draft is more to ensure the RfC is formatted and presented correctly rather than to start the actual dispute resolution process itself. EyeSerenetalk 09:09, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- @Ed. Your apology is accepted. Thank you dude :)
But I honestly did not attack Nick. I'm sorry you misunderstood me.
- @EyeSerene. Sounds fair, I misunderstood the process so go ahead with the draft :)
- Something very important has been ignored above and I'm worried. Blablaaa said:" And by the way if you finally do this RFS (RFC) stuff would it be possible that a german editor takes part this would make conversation muhc more fluently and i would be able to explain the issues very detailed and short in my nativ language.Blablaaa (talk) 17:33, 20 July 2010 (UTC)" This is a reasonable request. I support it fully without question. On a side-note I also noticed that he said he was being "ignored" and asked that yall speak to him rather than disclude him. Caden cool 09:25, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I appreciate that Blablaaa feels he's being ignored. I think that's a result of editors trying to discuss what to do about him while he's actually listening in; no rudeness was intended. I believe the awkwardness in these situations is a price worth paying for the transparency of conducting our business in the open, and I hope Blablaaa can forgive us for talking more about him than with him.
- If Blablaaa wants a German-speaking editor to help him out with translation, that seems perfectly fair. However, I'm slightly concerned that he wants to present his case for everyone else being biased, lying and POV-pushing rather than addressing his own conduct (which is what the RfC is about). I have no objection to him making whatever arguments he sees fit, but in the interests of fairness to him I wonder if he'd be better not using this RfC to do it. I honestly don't know - as I say, it's the first RfC I've been involved with, so if anyone can advise that would be useful. EyeSerenetalk 09:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Though I've no doubt that I'll be seen as part of this alleged MILHIST 'conspiracy', I've added my own outside view of these proceedings to the draft RfC, and will gladly look at the RfC and endorse it when filled in. Skinny87 (talk) 11:04, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
is this draft open now ? can i reply somewhere? Blablaaa (talk) 11:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think the draft is open here Blablaaa, and I would reckon that you can respond. I would suggest only making one summarised reply, however, and not multiple responses, to aid comprehension and speed of assessment once it goes live.
- thank you. I think its not possible to describe the situation in a short post. I guess oversimplyfing the issue helps others more than me. I want others do read all. Truth comes with understanding the complexity. But i dont see where i can respond directly, but i will search for itBlablaaa (talk) 12:09, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Your statement should go here. Parsecboy (talk) 12:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- -.- dont know why i did saw this. ThanksBlablaaa (talk) 12:19, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Your statement should go here. Parsecboy (talk) 12:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- thank you. I think its not possible to describe the situation in a short post. I guess oversimplyfing the issue helps others more than me. I want others do read all. Truth comes with understanding the complexity. But i dont see where i can respond directly, but i will search for itBlablaaa (talk) 12:09, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Shall I have a go at the "Attempts to resolve the dispute" section? Looks like a good place for my input to the page (I can't really consider myself an "outside opinion" anymore). Ranger Steve (talk) 14:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- please do so i have already the diffs showing how you not tried to help. Blablaaa (talk) 15:55, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the snide comment, Blablaa; it really helped things move along. Please start commenting on actions, not people. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 17:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- and this from your side ^^ Blablaaa (talk) 18:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the snide comment, Blablaa; it really helped things move along. Please start commenting on actions, not people. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 17:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- please do so i have already the diffs showing how you not tried to help. Blablaaa (talk) 15:55, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Shall I have a go at the "Attempts to resolve the dispute" section? Looks like a good place for my input to the page (I can't really consider myself an "outside opinion" anymore). Ranger Steve (talk) 14:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
(od) I'll leave this note here, but the draft talk page might be a better venue from now on just to keep everything central :) I think the basics are now in place, although please see my note on the talk page. Blablaaa, I don't think it matters if you take a day or two to post your response because RfCs are usually open for quite a while. You don't need to feel rushed. Thanks all, EyeSerenetalk 18:44, 21 July 2010 (UTC) people will read it they will start to get opinions. Established opinions are harder to change. Thats why i would have prefered to show enigmas ( and yours ) bias and the systematic bias before the thing started. But now people will read the wrong accusations and see no respond of me because i want to respind later. I explained my point and you choose to ignore it. Its ok we will see, good luckBlablaaa (talk) 19:39, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Now that this is live, I'd like to leave the above coversation at arm's length. I have points related to the current RFC I would like feedback on:
- Should we add this to the milhist template? In support I point out that 1)We cover current events there, and this is a current event, and 2) it would help draw more users to the rfc which could help us find more people who have an opinion on the matter. This works both ways in that it may help draw out additional members who back Blablaaa or Caden, but it also has the potential to turn the RFC into a one-sided rout if more people emerge to support our views rather than Caden and Blablaaa's views. In opposition I point out that 1) it is already listed at WP:RFC, and 2) this is project dedicate to improving wikipedia's military history related content, not a news ticker, and the rfc is not really related to milhist news beyond the fact it happens to involved a number or our editors. I expect we will here from both parties on the matter, but I remind everyone that no action will be taken until we reach consensusus on the matter, so if this ends up in the milhist template without consensus yank it out ASAP.
- At the risk of upsetting everyone involved in this I would like to see that situation resolve itself in such a way that Blablaaa ends up on probation becuase as much as I hate to admit he has raised a few valuable points in the past and if we can compell a talk first action later aproach in which edits are added by consensus from both Blablaaa and other community editors he may yet turn into a valuable assest. I know that probably doesn't sound attractive to a lot of you - Nick-D and EyeSerene are the first two people I can think of you would have a stake in seeing Blablaa gone completely - but I would prefer a situtation in which no one ends up unconditionally vioctorious.
- Most ominiously for me (and I hope the rest of you too): how did we all end up in this situation? Surely we all could have done things differently, but in the interest of learning from past mistakes I would like to hear back on whether we should have done more earlier or whether we would have ended up at rfc anyway. I see this rfc as a failure of both sides to agree with each other, and although I admit that at this point I feel the rfc is needed, I am open to hearing what we could have done differently earlier to better handle this situation. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:52, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps the best thing for now is simply to let the RFC run its course, keep all comment peripheral or otherwise to that page, and turn instead to other Milhist matters? Roger Davies talk 22:00, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps that would be the best for everyone. Most of us have dwelt on this long enough. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:28, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Outstanding matters
In an attempt to keep things from slipping through the cracks, here are—to the best of my recollection—the outstanding matters that we ought to deal with in the near future:
- MILMOS reorganization
- The discussion at WT:MILHIST seems to have concluded with no opposition to our proposal, so I think we can proceed with implementing this. I think the cleanest way to move forward would be to host the three subpages in our project space initially:
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Style guide (Naming conventions, Usage and style, References and citations, Templates, Categories)
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Content guide (Article content)
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Notability guide (Notability)
- Once we've split the pages and cleaned up the various links to and among the guidelines, we can move the first subpage to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (military history) and create an appropriate MoS sub-category for it.
- The discussion at WT:MILHIST seems to have concluded with no opposition to our proposal, so I think we can proceed with implementing this. I think the cleanest way to move forward would be to host the three subpages in our project space initially:
- Strategy Think Tank
- The STT seems to be languishing a bit. Assuming that we want to continue with it and bring it to full activity, I think we should make an effort to advertise its presence more; I see a number of different options:
- (a) Add it as a tab from the main page tab bar (e.g. "Strategy", next to "Logistics")
- (b) Add it as a collapsible block on the navigation template, with the main subpages listed below it
- (c) Add a note about it to the main talk page editnotice, directing editors to it for brainstorming discussions
- (d) Add a note about it to the welcome template
- Some or all of these could be implemented, depending on what we want to do. More generally, we should probably try and start some actual brainstorming discussions there (e.g. future drives, museum collaboration, etc.), but that's a bit longer-term.
- The STT seems to be languishing a bit. Assuming that we want to continue with it and bring it to full activity, I think we should make an effort to advertise its presence more; I see a number of different options:
- Academy
- We should try and move forward with cleaning up the academy so that it's a bit more usable as a learning tool. The first step would probably be to move the redlinks elsewhere—the STT is a good place—but then we'll need to actually roll up our sleeves and start copyediting the individual articles into more coherent form. Any ideas on how we can best organize the effort? Should we coordinate it through the STT as well?
- Military fiction task force
- When this was originally created by WP:NOVELS, there was a brief discussion here about turning it into a joint TF with them, but we decided to defer any action until we had completed our internal task force reorganization; now would probably be an appropriate time to pick this up and approach Novels with the idea again.
Any thoughts on these items would be appreciated. If anyone recalls anything else that we need to deal with, please feel free to bring it up as well. Kirill [talk] [prof] 01:38, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- Looks good. A couple of other things to perhaps consider ....
- Is it time yet to dish out reviewers awards again, with suitable fanfares/attendant publicity?
- Can we avoid future gaps by planning the Bugle a couple of issues in advance? And, if so, get some articles/essays commissioned for it? (If these could also be current Academy redlinks, then two birds, one stone.)
- Roger Davies talk 03:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- Definitely. To the above I'd add that there are a number of outstanding discussion ideas that have been suggested over past months, such as the development of various notability guidelines, the scope of fiction in milhist (maybe another guideline), a naming guideline for foreign ranks, and how we should be using the infobox (which I think is one point we can detach from recent events as being worth further thought). I think these could all be fruitful subjects for the STT. Perhaps it would be worth creating a section where these and other ideas can be listed as they come up? Often when they're raised is not an opportune time for addressing them, and possibly not every idea is appropriate, but we ought to maintain a record both so that they don't get overlooked and to provide a bank of subjects for the STT to work on. EyeSerenetalk 06:31, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- Adding some now :) EyeSerenetalk 15:34, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- Some replies on a couple points: I'm not sure if Novels could effectively mount any sort of opposition to it anyway, it's mostly dead.
- Reviewers' awards would be good if someone will volunteer to count the lists.
- I think that essays and editorials are the only things that can possibly be made ready for The Bugle long beforehand? Unless that's what you were asking for? —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:55, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, essays/editorials were exactly what I had in mind for advance preparation. They are time-consuming to write and benefit from mulling and polishing. Having a rolling schedule of these covering the next two/three issues makes it much easier to plan ahead. The schedule needn't be set in concrete (some things will inevitably run late anyway) but it will provide ideas for perhaps adding supporting things or updating the relvant sections of the Academy. Roger Davies talk 07:27, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think it's worth widely advertising to the project that we're encouraging submission for essays/editorials. It would be great to get more involvement from editors outside the coords/former coords circle (maybe we could even invite contributions from editors outside the project on certain subjects - User:Moonriddengirl springs to mind for a feature about copyright/plagiarism). EyeSerenetalk 09:08, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Absolutely. It's a good way of getting more Academy content too. Roger Davies talk 11:17, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think it's worth widely advertising to the project that we're encouraging submission for essays/editorials. It would be great to get more involvement from editors outside the coords/former coords circle (maybe we could even invite contributions from editors outside the project on certain subjects - User:Moonriddengirl springs to mind for a feature about copyright/plagiarism). EyeSerenetalk 09:08, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, essays/editorials were exactly what I had in mind for advance preparation. They are time-consuming to write and benefit from mulling and polishing. Having a rolling schedule of these covering the next two/three issues makes it much easier to plan ahead. The schedule needn't be set in concrete (some things will inevitably run late anyway) but it will provide ideas for perhaps adding supporting things or updating the relvant sections of the Academy. Roger Davies talk 07:27, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- So, does anyone have any further comments on the first two items (the MILMOS reorganization and the STT linking)? If not, I'll go ahead and start implementing the needed changes over the next few days. Kirill [talk] [prof] 03:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- No objections to that. I think consensus is crystal clear on the MILMOS issue, and the STT ought to be linked more prominently to get us all into the habit of using it. Have you got a preference for a subject for the first brainstorming session to get things kicked off? EyeSerenetalk 07:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ditto what EyeSerene said. I can't see the harm in carrying out those two actions. --Patar knight - chat/contributions 00:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thirded the above. :) —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 01:02, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I'll move forward with those two items shortly. As far as the first brainstorming topic, I'm not sure; perhaps something about the Academy, to roll in the third item in the list? Or is the expected effort there too administrative in nature to need project-wide brainstorming? Kirill [talk] [prof] 12:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hmm, not sure really. I think there are things we could usefully discuss re the Academy: how it should be structured (eg What distinguishes a course from an essay? How do we link content together? Do we want a standard format? What should that be?...); how we oversee it; how we go about copyediting and collating what we've already got etc. Whether all this requires brainstorming or just a couple of editors with the time and stamina to take it by the scruff of the neck and get stuck in - as I've meant to do on more than one occasion - I don't know. EyeSerenetalk 14:27, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the milmos split, I was not opposed to it and I'm glad to see this moving forward. On the matter of the academy, some discussion among members concerning the questions of formatting and the difference between a course and an essay may help us grasp which way the members want to move this thing. As the for the SST: like all new things I think there is some reluctance to use it since no one is sure exactly how it is supposed to work. To borrow a little for an illustrative example, when I launched OMT it was with working groups, then that evolved into a userspace drive since using working groups seemed to tedious, then that evolved again into a special project since it was felt to be too big for the userspace or working group concepts but not big enough for a task force. Since then, three other special projects have come about since the framework for the usage of the term has been established. I suspect a similar approach here will occur, where people will refrain from using the SST until its niche is properly discerned through some manner of trial and error.
In response to your suggestions above Kirill, I think moving forward with all of those ideas would be a good idea, and we could probably cover the SST in the bugle with an interview or two from project members involved in setting it up to help drum up interest in the matter. Eventually, I would like to see the bugle evolve to the point where a once a month story concerning these somewhat lesser known areas/groups/teams that we operate are covered to help better advertise their existence to the members. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:38, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Status update
Items 1 and 2 from the list above have now been implemented; I'd appreciate it if people could take a look at the changes I've made and make sure that everything is as expected. Kirill [talk] [prof] 02:44, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I just re-read MILMOS (except for the cat stuff) ... looking good. - Dank (push to talk) 03:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Possible addition to MILMOS
I have an idea for an addition to the Notability guideline. It relates to the notability of military units and formations. I've started it in my Sandbox, if you want to take a look. It will probably need tightening and is really just a rough draft. AustralianRupert (talk) 11:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps it should set out a provision for smaller special operations units? --Patar knight - chat/contributions 04:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Hi Patar knight, thanks for the feedback. Could you please provide an example of the type of unit you are refering to? I'm struggling to think of a way to include them at the moment and if you have an example it might help me frame the wording. Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 12:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- AR, would you mind if we took this to the STT talk page? Your proposed guideline is just the kind of thing that the STT intended for. EyeSerenetalk 12:47, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- That would neatly resolve the question of what we could start brainstorming. :-) Kirill [talk] [prof] 01:46, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- My thought too :) EyeSerenetalk 09:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I've added a section at the STT talk page. Apologies if I've formatted it badly. Please feel free to tweak if necessary. Please add any further comments over on that page. Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 10:42, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- That looks great. Thanks so much for doing this :) EyeSerenetalk 10:55, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- After discussion and tweaking on the STT and main project talk pages, I have now moved the unit and formation essay to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Notability guide. AustralianRupert (talk) 22:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Academy work area
Now that we've moved the list of needed Academy articles into the STT, I'm wondering if we should simplify the associated talk page structure as well. At the moment, we have three relevant pages:
- Main Academy page (contains finished articles)
- Main Academy talk page (contains all related discussion)
- Main STT page (contains missing articles)
This is probably not ideal, since (a) the "work area" for the Academy now doesn't have a dedicated talk page and (b) Academy matters are now split among both the STT and the Academy page itself.
What I'd like to do, in some form, is to pull the discussion from the Academy page into the STT as well, and leave the main page as simply the list of finished courses (similar to how our showcase is set up). At the same time, mixing Academy discussions in with the brainstorming sessions on the main STT talk page will probably be a bit confusing. In light of that, I'd like to suggest that we create a "training division" within the STT and collect all Academy activities there. This would leave us with:
- Main Academy page (contains finished articles)
- Main Academy talk page → redirected to STT training division talk page
- STT training division page (contains missing articles, other planning materials)
- STT training division talk page (contains all Academy-related discussion)
This would effectively mean that the STT training division would be the only page that people working on the Academy would need to really keep track of; the Academy page itself would just be a reader-facing one.
Thoughts? Kirill [talk] [prof] 13:22, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Makes sense to me. Although it would have been nice to keep as much as possible central, I think mixing the Academy discussion with WT:MHSTT would be confusing. In creating a training division we wouldn't actually be creating extra talk pages so the overhead is basically the same. The only alternative I can think of is to segregate the STT talk page somehow. EyeSerenetalk 14:46, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I've made the changes; we now have a training division that we can use to coordinate Academy work. At some point, we should probably go through and come up with a plan for cleaning up and consolidating the current set of articles; we've been meaning to do that for a while, and it would be nice to make some progress on that in the near future. Kirill [talk] [prof] 16:15, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
A modest proposal for The Bugle
I'm currently writing an article on article creation for The Bugle (draft here) and in doing so it occurred to me that one way to raise the profile of the existing academy articles would be to highlight one or two of them in each edition of The Bugle. This could involve including a short (one para or so) summary of the article and a link to the remainder. Nick-D (talk) 06:12, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- That's a pretty good idea, particularly now that we have the space to add a paragraph on something like this! —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:56, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hi, Nick. Looks like a good topic for the Bugle, in my opinion. I love the image, of course, and can sympathise with the sappers, having put across a few bridges in my time. High Range in summer with full body armour is no treat, but not quite the same as the Miribad or Chora valleys as one might appreciate! AustralianRupert (talk) 08:08, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- One suggestion I have, Nick, is that perhaps you could find a way to mention the Requested article lists that most of the task forces maintain. The ANZSP, for instance, one is massive—mainly biographies—but it is a place that editors who are wanting to kill some redlinks might go for inspiration. AustralianRupert (talk) 08:17, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- That's a good idea - thanks for that. Nick-D (talk) 08:22, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- One suggestion I have, Nick, is that perhaps you could find a way to mention the Requested article lists that most of the task forces maintain. The ANZSP, for instance, one is massive—mainly biographies—but it is a place that editors who are wanting to kill some redlinks might go for inspiration. AustralianRupert (talk) 08:17, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hi, Nick. Looks like a good topic for the Bugle, in my opinion. I love the image, of course, and can sympathise with the sappers, having put across a few bridges in my time. High Range in summer with full body armour is no treat, but not quite the same as the Miribad or Chora valleys as one might appreciate! AustralianRupert (talk) 08:08, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Wikileaks strikes again
By now, if you haven't noticed it, the wikileaks group just unleashed nearly 100,000 papers on or relating to the afgan war to the public. At the moment (IE, as I am tying this) the article seems to be stable, but I expect that will change over the next 48 hours. Of particular note at the moment is that the issue of the article name is still up in the air, so I would ask that everyone keep an eye on this and if necessary move-lock the article at a particular name until we have the need weeklong consensus for retention of the article at its current name or a consensus to move it to a new name.
On an unrelated note, it appear that the next GRE test date will be August 17, so I am shooting to have my test on that day, and then I should be back with full force (I hope). I dislike dumping on other people what I feel I should be my part of our workload, but hopefully it will end soon. TomStar81 (Talk) 10:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- No problems so far, and the discussion over the name of the article isn't going anywhere. Nick-D (talk) 11:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I still haven't seen any problems arising from this on the articles I've got watchlisted. The nature of the material posted on the Wikileaks website also doesn't really lend itself to OR, which is a bit of a relief. From my poking about it's largely low-level operational reports and requires a lot of effort to analyse in any way - anyone with the time and motivation to do so would likely have other (and better) avenues for publishing their analysis. It also doesn't seem to be having all that big a news impact (as a lot of commentators have pointed out, the leaks showing that the NATO-led forces are bogged down don't add much to what's been being reported for the last year or so...). Nick-D (talk) 11:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
July newsletter
With August now upon us (how fast the time flies!) We need to see about getting the July Bugle out there for the readers. The above links still need work, and I am open to ideas on what our editorials for the month should be on. I would also suggest that we consider interviewing Parsecboy since he has received only the second A-class medal with swords to be issued. A few words of encouragement for students may also be worth including being as how over the next eight weeks most students will be marching back to the classrooms for the new school year. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:48, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Tom, do you mind if we redirect this to our new newsroom? EyeSerenetalk 09:22, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Not at all. I just post here since those who tend to do most of the writing, as well as those who will send out the letter, happen to reside largely on this page. TomStar81 (Talk) 10:33, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- That's true, but unless we make a conscious effort to use the STT it's going to die a death from neglect :) I think there are advantages to having a dedicated newsdesk that will hopefully emerge as we all get into the habit of using it. Probably a reminder here every month, like the one you've posted, is still a good idea though! EyeSerenetalk 10:48, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Hi, all. For some reason I completely forgot about the contest, for which I will promptly give myself an upper cut. Anyway, I'm trying to verify the entries this morning (Brisbane time), however, there are quite a lot and I would appreciate it if anyone could help out (maybe if someone could start from the bottom of the list and work up, as I am going from the top down?) AustralianRupert (talk) 22:36, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, the July contest has been verified and the results added to the newsletter. Apologies for the tardiness this month. AustralianRupert (talk) 11:32, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Hi, all. For some reason I completely forgot about the contest, for which I will promptly give myself an upper cut. Anyway, I'm trying to verify the entries this morning (Brisbane time), however, there are quite a lot and I would appreciate it if anyone could help out (maybe if someone could start from the bottom of the list and work up, as I am going from the top down?) AustralianRupert (talk) 22:36, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- That's true, but unless we make a conscious effort to use the STT it's going to die a death from neglect :) I think there are advantages to having a dedicated newsdesk that will hopefully emerge as we all get into the habit of using it. Probably a reminder here every month, like the one you've posted, is still a good idea though! EyeSerenetalk 10:48, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm sending this out on Sunday, so this is the last call for any news related matters and copyedits before the newsletter ships. If it ain't in the letter when I email Cbrown1023 it gets left behind. TomStar81 (Talk) 18:04, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Is August the edit war campaign season?
Am I right to think that there are (many) more than normal edit wars and heated content disputes going on within Wikipedia's military history articles at the moment? They seem to be springing up all over the place. Incidentally, I'm surprised that there isn't a Campaign season article given the central importance of the topic to warfare throughout human history. Nick-D (talk) 02:30, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- I suspect its that people are coming back from time off; stateside this is summer vacation season, but with school set to resume many of the technologically gifted people are return to the computer terminals and this in turn correlates to higher user input and therefore higher levels of editorial agreement. I should note that I have no idea how this effects things in the southern hemisphere, but I suspect a similar correlation. TomStar81 (Talk) 02:46, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- That makes sense; certainly, editing in general tends to follow certain trends related to the academic year. Kirill [talk] [prof] 03:14, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Interesting Information concerning FPs
By chance I happened to have located Wikipedia:Picture of the day/Unused, which displays a very limited number of images that are featured but have not appeared on the mainpage. I take a quite pride in having the only explicitly designated milhist photo to be disbarred from the mainpage on grounds of being "too gruesome", however there is another image, File:Butt, Baden-Powell, Taft, Bryce2.jpg, that is listed there simply because there is insufficient information on the meeting in question to use the image on the main page. We can fix this problem if we could get some information on the meeting up and running here on site, and I for one would like have such a high res photo up for all to enjoy. According to the photo information, one of the men depicted in the image is Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell, a lieutenant general in the British Army, that would probably be a good place to start if anyone would like to take up the challenge. TomStar81 (Talk) 02:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- There are two military men in that photo (along with a sitting President of the United States) in front of the White House: Archibald Butt was a Major in the US Army and advisor to Presidents Roosevelt and Taft until his death during the sinking of RMS Titanic. This photo was taken only two months before. Also Baden-Powell is the founder of Boy Scouts. -MBK004 04:01, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- The Baden-Powell picture seems to have more to do with scouting than Milhist. It's part of a series ([1], [2], [3], [4], [5]) possibly related to Taft becoming the first Chief Scout. Roger Davies talk 19:37, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Interesting article in this week's signpost
The article on the decreasing number of RfAs at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2010-08-09/Admin stats is well worth a read. Any current or former coordinators of this project and most editors who've taken the lead with an FA would have no difficulties passing a RfA, and the more admins around the better... Nick-D (talk) 10:54, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed Ed (talk • majestic titan) 18:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
From the position of the milhist coordinators (past and present), the candidates for adminstratorship (excluding those already admins and those who have departed or edit irregularly for the past six months or more) would be:
- Cla68 (talk · contribs)
- Bedford (talk · contribs)
- Catalan (talk · contribs)
- Maralia (talk · contribs)
- Abraham, B.S. (talk · contribs)
- Ian Rose (talk · contribs)
- Jackyd101 (talk · contribs)
- Joe N (talk · contribs)
- Lordoliver (talk · contribs)
- Skinny87 (talk · contribs)
- AustralianRupert (talk · contribs)
- MisterBee1966 (talk · contribs)
- Ranger Steve (talk · contribs)
Of these candidates, some already have rollback/reviewer rights, some have had rfa's, and in one case, the user was an admin but was demoted such as it were after an incident. Members listed below Skinny 87 are members of the current admin coordinator tranche. Note that this list may not reflect the presence of an "I do not wish to be an admin" template or disclaimer, this is merely intended to be a snapshot of coordinators who we could approach to see if they held any interest in being admins. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- Considering activity levels and divisiveness (climate change comes to mind, no offense to Cla, you know I love your Japanese capital ship knowledge!), I think Bryce, Ian, Aussie, MB1966, and Ranger are the only ones with a shot at passing. On the flip side, this very discussion could damage their chances, as people might view it as 'milhist cabaling' or something like that... Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 07:23, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, not only am I quite inactive at the moment, but I have no desire to get entered into the crapshoot/slander contest that is RfA. Skinny87 (talk) 09:53, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm flattered by the above comments, but having read several RFA's in the past I just don't really have the desire to get involved in that whole process. There seems to be an emphasis on "what more will you do / what other areas will you work in if you become an admin?" at these things, which strikes me as the wrong sort of attitude in a volunteer project. Ranger Steve (talk) 10:00, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Quite honestly, I don't blame either of you. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 14:28, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- I've been thinking about throwing my hat into the ring, but not until early next year. I've gone back to uni this year and I won't have the time until my course is over. At the moment I've found that my article output has become almost zero, which I find disappointing, although I am working on a couple of articles offline at the moment which should hopefully be finished in the next few weeks. AustralianRupert (talk) 22:06, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just stumbled on this RFA which I think helps to summarise the problems with the whole process a little. Some terrible reasons for oppose from some less than saintly editors, (including some admins with far worse examples of their own). What fun! Ranger Steve (talk) 11:40, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- On the other hand, Nev is on track to be confirmed as an admin, so the process is working there (it seems worth noting that as a former admin seeking reinstatement they'll inevitably attract some opposes from editors who they've ruled against). Several of the questions s/he's been asked seem to be broad policy matters which are beyond the scope of individual admins to act upon though. Nick-D (talk) 11:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just stumbled on this RFA which I think helps to summarise the problems with the whole process a little. Some terrible reasons for oppose from some less than saintly editors, (including some admins with far worse examples of their own). What fun! Ranger Steve (talk) 11:40, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- I've been thinking about throwing my hat into the ring, but not until early next year. I've gone back to uni this year and I won't have the time until my course is over. At the moment I've found that my article output has become almost zero, which I find disappointing, although I am working on a couple of articles offline at the moment which should hopefully be finished in the next few weeks. AustralianRupert (talk) 22:06, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Quite honestly, I don't blame either of you. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 14:28, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm flattered by the above comments, but having read several RFA's in the past I just don't really have the desire to get involved in that whole process. There seems to be an emphasis on "what more will you do / what other areas will you work in if you become an admin?" at these things, which strikes me as the wrong sort of attitude in a volunteer project. Ranger Steve (talk) 10:00, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, not only am I quite inactive at the moment, but I have no desire to get entered into the crapshoot/slander contest that is RfA. Skinny87 (talk) 09:53, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
Unassessed articles and those without task forces
Hi all, the number of articles sitting in the unassessed and without task force category has risen dramatically the past few days. I'm trying to do a few (and I think some other editors are working on this too), but we seem to be losing the battle. If anyone is looking for some gnomish work, I'd appreciate the help. Even if every co-ord just did 5 a day, we'd make a bit of a dent and it doesn't take much more than a minute or so to add the task forces, although it can take a little longer to assess, of course. Just a thought. Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 06:35, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- I noticed a new editor to MILHIST was doing a massive assessment run a few days ago but forgot to leave a mention here. My apologies -MBK004 14:30, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Proposal to rename the "Wikipedia:WikiProject" pseudo-namespace
A proposal has been made to rename the "Wikipedia:WikiProject" pseudo-namespace to an actual namespace (e.g. "WikiProject:"); comments there would be appreciated.
This is definitely something we need to keep an eye on; if it moves forward, it will require a significant number of changes to our infrastructure—primarily having to do with fixing links in templates—to get everything working properly again. Kirill [talk] [prof] 22:43, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks, I don't usually keep an eye on WP:VPR. If they can cleverly automate the changeover, it strikes me as an excellent idea from a usability standpoint. - Dank (push to talk) 22:51, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- FYI, this proposal has now moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject namespace. It's currently enjoying a reasonable level of support, although most people seem to be glossing over the actual implementation issues for the moment; in any case, we still need to keep an eye on how it's progressing so that we don't get blindsided by the eventual result. Kirill [talk] [prof] 09:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Recruitment working group
As the founder (and only member) of the recruitment working group hasn't edited for almost two months, and the WG doesn't seem to have gone anywhere, I'm wondering if we should:
- (a) Fold it into the STT and leave discussion of recruitment on the list of topics for further discussion;
- (b) Try to make an active effort to revive it; or
- (c) Leave it gathering dust.
Thoughts? Kirill [talk] [prof] 00:57, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, none of our recruitment proposals over the years have really gone anywhere and it would be good to see a proper initiative. So, I suppose I'd prefer something involving both (a) and (b) ;) Roger Davies talk 04:15, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- Any other thoughts? Kirill [talk] [prof] 04:36, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Sandy's FAC plea, reviews
I don't know whether anyone else noticed WT:MILHIST#FAC plea and wondered whether there was anything we could do to encourage our users to help review other articles at FAC in what will hopefully be a quid pro quo situation.
Looking at MHR, the peer reviews and ACRs need a few more reviewers, would diverting them to FAC be shooting ourselves in the foot. I know it is effectively a perennial proposal but is there any way of encouraging more reviews across the project? Perhaps and editorial in the newsletter? Woody (talk) 09:18, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- Giving out reviewers barnstars every three month or so is a very effective way of keeping interest on the boil. Although it's been talked about, we don't actually seem to have done this for over a year now. Publishing league tables of top reviewers at the same time also introduces an element of friendly competition. This is pretty basic stuff but it is effective. Roger Davies talk 10:23, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- No reaction at all to this? Roger Davies talk 05:58, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm finally getting my arse in gear with regards to getting these out, at the moment I am attempting to determine when it was exactly that we last handed out the reviewer awards and where the logs of the ACR and PR fields are so I can begin the process of going through them. I expect the process to be time consuming but since I have nothing to do at the moment I hope to have this done in a week or two (taking into account the time it will take find everything and figure out who won such as it were). TomStar81 (Talk) 06:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- Good man!
- It seems the last lot went out in June 2009. MBK has a page logging candidates somewhere and someone (I forget who now, I'm afraid) did some of the preliminary work for Jul-Sep 2009 and Oct-Dec 2009. So for the last six months of last year, it may just mean collating results that are tucked away on user pages somewhere. Roger Davies talk 06:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well, that does simplify matters somewhat. Given the extraordinarily long period of time between the last awarding and this awarding I think everyone should receive a barnstar to help encourage more reviews, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. TomStar81 (Talk) 06:18, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- We could instead split it to one for Jul-Dec 2009 and another Jan-Jul 2010. Thereafter quarterly. How does that sound?
- I've got a word script that I can use to generate the ACR lists (though the Peer reviews need to be done manually). I knock this out over the weekend, I expect. Roger Davies talk 06:50, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well, that does simplify matters somewhat. Given the extraordinarily long period of time between the last awarding and this awarding I think everyone should receive a barnstar to help encourage more reviews, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. TomStar81 (Talk) 06:18, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm finally getting my arse in gear with regards to getting these out, at the moment I am attempting to determine when it was exactly that we last handed out the reviewer awards and where the logs of the ACR and PR fields are so I can begin the process of going through them. I expect the process to be time consuming but since I have nothing to do at the moment I hope to have this done in a week or two (taking into account the time it will take find everything and figure out who won such as it were). TomStar81 (Talk) 06:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
A few points for discussion
I think a few points need to be raised concerning of few aspects of the project at the moment, so I am opening a discussion suggestion on the matters so we can work through the issues. TomStar81 (Talk) 08:51, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
For starters, our newsletter format has caused some confusion for Cbrown1023. I promised I'd open a Q&A section so he could ask any questions or get clarification for what we wanted to avoid a repeat of the past delivery errors. The problem at the moment seems to be that he is/was unsure what the change we implemented meant for his end of the process, which result in his delivering the one liner format when we wanted the full format for all members. I take responsibility for this incident since in hindsight he should have been informed from the start of our plans to change to the new format so he would have been in a position to track the development and ask questions of us regarding the delivery status on his end. I'm moving to fix this oversight now by inviting him over to ask the questions needed for clarification so we can move the August newsletter out without delay.
Secondly, I think we need to revisit the matter OMT involved ACR closures; while I can appreciate that oversight does need to be preserved the fact remains that these are all to often left on the ACR's for closure section because those who close have already reviewed. Releasing closure oversight to OMT members at the coordinator level would help clear the backlog of ship articles we have. Alternatively, we could file OMT ACR's through WP:SHIPS and let their project handle the closures. I have not checked the specifics, but in theory this would allow access to outside editors to evaluate the article's ACR worthiness and would allow us to move the articles out of the section faster.
Lastly, the September coordinator elections will be starting soon. I wish to raise two points in regards to this. Point 1: As of the time stamp noted at the end of my signature we are reported to have over 1,100 members, but I can not convince myself that they are all active; I suspect that the membership list has yet to be updated to reflect a more current and more accurate number of members. Assuming the actual active members comprise about 1/2 of that list then we have 600 members (I'm being generous with that figure). We have 14 coordinators currently attached to the project, when counting the one lead and two emeritus coordinators our total jumps to 17. I believe that we no longer need such a large number of coordinators to over see the project; therefore I would propose that we reduce the regular coordinator tranche by 50% to leave us with 7 coordinators, one lead, and two emeritus for a total of 10 coordinators for the next tranche. I believe that such a layout would benefit the project in the long run. Point 2: I would propose that we open the signup period for our September election on the 7th, with the elections themselves beginning on the 14th and ending on the 28th. This would copy the one week signup and two week voting period we used in March, which seemed to work pretty well last time around. I plan on asking Cbrown to run a special notice to all members informing them of the opening of the signup period and the opening of the formal election period.
- Closing could be contentious in theory but so far hasn't been; we might as well allow OMT coords to close and see what happens. - Dank (push to talk) 11:56, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced that there's anything to be gained by reducing the coordinator staff so sharply. Coordinators are not all equally active; a larger tranche gives us considerably more ability to absorb vacations, irregular activity, and even the occasional totally inactive coordinator. Cutting the tranche in half would be fine if everyone elected were highly active, but that's not usually the case; and, with only nine regular coordinators, having a couple go on vacation is likely to substantially impact the available manpower pool. We're certainly not in a position where we need less manpower, incidentally—there are definitely things on our list (e.g. the Academy cleanup) that we're already having to push to the back burner.
- (Keep in mind, also, that counting Roger and myself as coordinators for the purposes of determining staffing levels is probably not the best idea; while we try to help out where we can, we both have significant and time-consuming responsibilities outside the project, and don't necessarily have the time to carry out the coordinators' "regular" tasks.)
- On a slightly broader point, I think having a larger tranche is more generally beneficial in that it reduces the tendency for all the spots to go to our multi-term regulars, allowing some fresh blood into the coordinator pool. This, in turn, reduces the risk that editor burn-out will severely impact us.
- As far as your other ideas, everything looks fine. I don't see any real problem with allowing "involved" OMT closures in practice, any more so than I would with having coordinators close articles belonging to task forces of which they're a part. As long as the coordinator didn't actually write the article himself, I don't think there's any significant conflict of interest; we're all working collaboratively here anyways, in some sense. Kirill [talk] [prof] 15:44, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- My thoughts are already well-known on the OMT closures, but the idea of having SHIPS host the reviews will not work either. The reason being that ships does not have an active review process except for our reviews which are cross-posted and the fact that I am the one who usually closes ships reviews when they are non-MILHIST. The same issue would remain. If the consensus is that "involved" OMT closures per Kirill's COI restrictions are permissible, then I will start to close them myself instead of listing them above on this page for closure. I agree completely with Kirill on the size of the coordinator corps and would strongly oppose any reduction in our numbers. The proposed timetable for the election is fine with me. On to the newsletter, I would like to have another option available to the delivery options. Along with the current options of non-delivery and now our front page, I would like to see the old one-liner still available for those who would prefer that. -MBK004 19:49, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- Given that the next tranche of coordinators will be elected for a full year, it seems desirable to maintain at least the current number as it's safe to assume that at least 3 or 4 will withdraw or become inactive due to other commitments over the year based on the historical attrition rate. I've never seen any concerns about there being too many coordinators. Nick-D (talk) 01:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well ... I wouldn't say there have never been concerns; in the last election, we had roughly the same number of candidates as seats to fill. That makes quality control tough; for instance, I got in :) - Dank (push to talk) 02:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- I suggested a reduction based on a reoccurring point that since wikipedia's growth is slowing we no longer need as many people to man the ranking departments such as it were. As it is we do frequently make do with fewer coordinators than elected for a variety of different reasons, so I figured suggesting a drop in the number retained could be worth it if for no other reason than to help ensure quality control. We do have the option of co-opting, though I prefer not to use it unless its absolutely necessary. To be fair to Kirill's point, I do agree that the emeritus members should not be looked upon as part of the total number of coordinators; however, both have maintained an interest in the project and do help out when they can, so its not like we do without by including them. In either case, based on what I am seeing here, it would be advisable to retain the 14 + lead approach for the next tranche. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well, keep in mind that growth slowing down is not the same thing as an actual decline in size; even if it's a slower process, Wikipedia is very much still expanding. :-) Kirill [talk] [prof] 12:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
I agree that a reduction in coordinators is necessary. While I appreciate that some coordinators could become inactive, there is simply no need for 14 of us. I think it could create or is reinforcing an image of needless bureaucracy and a Milhist 'elite' at the top of the pyramid to the rest of Wikipedia and potential members. While I think the Academy and some of these other ideas are great ideas, we need the members to come and help as well. Adding coordinators isn't the answer; it's attracting new members and interesting old ones into/in these initiatives.
I'd rather that OMT articles are not closed by OMT members, but the status quo isn't working very well at the moment; articles are sitting for days or week in want of a 'neutral' coord. As a result, I'm tentatively supportive of this proposal, but if one or two non-OMT coords step up and volunteer to close the OMT noms, I think we should see if these issues go away. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 06:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm unconvinced that there's a real problem with the impression the coordinator system creates. We've been worried about seeming too bureaucratic since the system was first created; but, in all that time, I can't recall any serious complaints on the subject.
- Your point about attracting non-coordinators is a good one, but doing so consistently may not be practical. There's a very limited portion of the overall membership that has any real interest in administrative matters, and an even smaller portion that is willing to devote any significant time to them. Kirill [talk] [prof] 12:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- To add my two cents worth, I am supportive of OMT co-ords closing OMT A class reviews so long as they haven't been involved in the review or writing process (except maybe a few minor tweaks). I think that the role of a co-ord is to be a "trusted member" and by having a blanket rule that they can't close, then aren't we really saying that this trust doesn't exist? From my interaction with all the co-ords on the project, I feel they can and should be trusted to do the right thing. If a situation about whether to pass or fail an ACR is uncertain, I'm sure a second opinion could be sought. Regarding the number of co-ords, I feel it would be best to maintain the status quo, particularly as we are looking at adopting a year long term. If at the end of that year it was found that there wasn't enough work for all those co-ords, then a reduction might be warranted, however, at the moment I think we are actually struggling to maintain certain parts of the project even with the numbers we currently have. For instance there are large numbers of articles with incomplete checklists, task forces not allocated, B class reviews that sit for a awhile, ACRs with minimal participation, GANs waiting for review, notability guidelines to write, etc. Yes, much of this is and can be done by editors who aren't co-ords, but from experience I believe that finding such editors is difficult. That's just my opinion and I'm happy to be challenged on any of it. Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 22:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- A simple solution to the issue of OMT coords closing OMT ACRs would be to first post a proposal to allow this at WT:MILHIST and ask if there are any objections. If no-one objects (as I imagine would be the case) then there's no problem. Nick-D (talk) 10:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- To add my two cents worth, I am supportive of OMT co-ords closing OMT A class reviews so long as they haven't been involved in the review or writing process (except maybe a few minor tweaks). I think that the role of a co-ord is to be a "trusted member" and by having a blanket rule that they can't close, then aren't we really saying that this trust doesn't exist? From my interaction with all the co-ords on the project, I feel they can and should be trusted to do the right thing. If a situation about whether to pass or fail an ACR is uncertain, I'm sure a second opinion could be sought. Regarding the number of co-ords, I feel it would be best to maintain the status quo, particularly as we are looking at adopting a year long term. If at the end of that year it was found that there wasn't enough work for all those co-ords, then a reduction might be warranted, however, at the moment I think we are actually struggling to maintain certain parts of the project even with the numbers we currently have. For instance there are large numbers of articles with incomplete checklists, task forces not allocated, B class reviews that sit for a awhile, ACRs with minimal participation, GANs waiting for review, notability guidelines to write, etc. Yes, much of this is and can be done by editors who aren't co-ords, but from experience I believe that finding such editors is difficult. That's just my opinion and I'm happy to be challenged on any of it. Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 22:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Taking Tom's discussion points in order:
- I think the newsletter should probably still go out in two formats (one-line link and complete front page); this was largely why I broached the issue here. I'm uncomfortable with our unilaterally overriding the signup options that our members have chosen. Alternatively, if we do decide everyone gets the full front page we should think about deprecating the signup options lists as redundant (keeping just the opt-out/in list).
- My two-week break aside, I wasn't under the impression that articles lingering on for closure was a particular problem. Personally I tend to close ACRs when I notice that MBK has posted them above rather than monitor the review page myself; these are generally OMT articles. I rarely have time to review but as an uninvolved coord I'm happy to take on OMT closures as a regular function if that would alleviate some of the concerns.
- I think there are significant advantages to having a good-sized pool of coordinators and potentially signficant disadvantages if we don't. In addition to those mentioned by Kirill:
- Co-option to make up the numbers later bypasses the election process (speaking as a former co-opted coord myself, I didn't really regard myself as a legitimate coordinator until I'd stood for election);
- Granting those limited number of editors who put themselves forward to get involved in project admin the title of "coordinator" is a small but nonetheless meaningful token of the project's appreciation. I believe we'd be expecting too much of editors to hope they'll take up the slack if we find ourselves short of coords when they haven't volunteered for it and don't have the recognition of a fancy title to go with it :)
EyeSerenetalk 14:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just want to be clear that despite my vote above, I'm completely happy with EyeSerene's closes; I just think we need more people available to close OMT A-class reviews. OTOH, for all we know, the coming coord elections will fix this. - Dank (push to talk) 14:26, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- I hadn't read your post any other way :) I just wonder is this more a temporary effect of the northern hemisphere summer holiday season than a serious recurring issue, and if we could address whatever issue there is by perhaps being more methodical about checking MBK's updates to "ACRs for closure"? For the record, I have no problem with OMT members closing OMT A-Class reviews, but I can understand why there may be an appearance of COI in doing so. EyeSerenetalk 14:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just want to be clear that despite my vote above, I'm completely happy with EyeSerene's closes; I just think we need more people available to close OMT A-class reviews. OTOH, for all we know, the coming coord elections will fix this. - Dank (push to talk) 14:26, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Last night I sat and typed out a fairly longish comment for this, which was lost about 2 minutes from posting when my %$&*` laptop crashed. I gave up and went back to packing after that and as I'm still deep in that tonight, this version may be a bit shorter! Taking Tom's points in order:
- I agree that we should still offer the newsletter in two formats. An alternative would be to just offer the link (if this makes delivery easier) but I don't think we should force everyone to accept the full version. I suspect that the signup to the newsletter may decrease if we do.
- I have zero issues with OMT members closing ACRs (as long as they had zero input to that ACR). For what its worth, I would have closed all of the ACRs that MBK did last week (if it wasn't for my psychic boss), which gives me a smidgen of an idea. If it made the checks and processes easier, could we accept a non involved co-ordinator agreeing that ACRs can be closed, and then any other co-ordinator (including OMT but perhaps still excluding editors involved in the ACR) can actually close it. The closing process is essentially a formality and procedural action, so if a non involved editor agrees to the actual judgement of closure, that absolves the co-ord actually doing it of any responsibility for the decision.
- I don't see any major problems with the numbers of co-ordinators at the moment, and I'd humbly suggest that the time when we're entering a new period of 1 year terms is perhaps not the best time to experiment with fewer numbers. Additionally it seems a bit hard to reconcile the need for more co-ordinators to be able to deal with OMT ACRs with the idea of reducing the numbers. I'd also agree with EyeSerene that giving the position and responsibilities a title (instead of just encouraging regular milhist members to carry out more procedural work) is a better way to go - its essentially an equivalent to the ideas above for getting more people to participate in reviews (except this time the reward is five stars and a position title instead of barnstars).
On a similar vein, I'm afraid I'm going to be away for opening of co-ord signup on September 7th. After a fairly hectic summer my ever suffering better half and I have managed to snatch a week off for the obligatory British camping trip to Cornwall. I should be back by the 11th though. As things stand I think it would be wrong of me to stand again; my life has been insane over the last 6 months and I just haven't been able to spend as much time on wiki as I'd have liked (I think I've contributed 1 whole new article...). That said, if there is a shortage on the signup I'll be happy to fill the breach and try to help where I can (if a less active co-ordinator is considered better than no co-ordinator at all!).
I'm also away from tomorrow until 1st September for a rather different holiday, cycling from Eindhoven to Arnhem along Hells Highway, and then to Amsterdam. I've always wanted to do it and having found a willing victim (sorry, friend) to accompany me I'll be under canvas for the next few days. I had hoped to start at JOEs bridge on the Belgian border, but there's no easy way to get there so I'll miss a little of the route off. Still, as we'll be doing 150 miles plus (easily) I figured I could get some money for Help for Heroes so if anyone wants to sponsor me....
Right, gotta try and get more waterproofs into the panniers. Ranger Steve (talk) 21:17, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Academy reorganization (Phase I)
I've started a discussion at the training division of the strategy think tank about cleaning up the organization of the Academy; input there would be appreciated. Kirill [talk] [prof] 13:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Radical Idea
I've actually been thinking about this point for a while and I was considering the idea that we may evolve the project - radically - by mothballing all our task forces and developing new sub area's based on special projects and working group schemes. Special Project areas seem to be working at the same pace of task forces, with the narrower focus they tend to attract and retain more people. The working groups can be used for lesser interest work sections which would in theory help revitalize the whole project by creating more narrowly focused areas for participation that may help us gain and retain more editors. There are a few areas in which I think we will need to have task forces if for nothing else than as a preemptive maneuver to keep World War I and World War II task forces to keep them from going out as independent projects. Its a radical Idea, and I was actually going to propose this after the elections, but since you raised the point now I think it may be of interest, all the more so if the Wikipedia:Wikiproject format bites the dust. TomStar81 (Talk) 00:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- The main problem, as you correctly point out, will be preventing people from creating independent projects in place of the task forces. Quite honestly, I would suggest retaining the current structure simply for its value as a fleet in being; the inactive task forces don't really consume any maintenance resources on an ongoing basis.
- We should continue to encourage special projects and/or working groups where appropriate, of course; but I don't think we're ready to reorient the whole system around them. Kirill [talk] [prof] 01:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Tom - the task forces are now all inactive and should be wound up. While it's true that they don't consume many resources, they have the potential to confuse potential new members of the project (who'll look at the moribund task force talk pages and conclude that the project is dead) and it's a waste of coordinators' time posting notifications to the task force pages. Nick-D (talk) 03:16, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- That begs the question of what you intend to do when someone starts creating entire new WikiProjects for our sub-topics instead. A dozen failed task forces, while something of a disappointment, pose no real danger to our collaborative environment; a single successful sub-project could be a grave risk if it decides to start pushing its own guidelines, template formats, and so forth (as has happened in the past). I don't think we can ignore the TFs' value in preventing such a course of events, even if they serve no other purpose.
- I wouldn't be opposed to further consolidation, mind you; but we need something in place to prevent a balkanization of our topic area into competing projects. Kirill [talk] [prof] 03:30, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- One idea that we might consider, of course, would be to eliminate the day-to-day maintenance overhead and the abandoned talk pages by turning task forces into organizational concepts rather than groups of editors. Under such a setup, a task force would retain its assessment, open task, and resource listing features, but would no longer have a distinct list of members or talk page; this would effectively allow the task force to be self-maintaining after the initial template/category setup. We could also roll the working groups into this concept as well; there aren't many of them, and we could eliminate the need for multiple group levels by simply creating the needed infrastructure for them. Kirill [talk] [prof] 04:06, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I would like to wind up the task forces in there entirety but that simply cannot be done since some of the task forces we have serve as a fleet in being to allow us uncontested control of military related matters. I sited World War I and World War II as examples since they are the most often suggested projects, and we need these two task forces in place to show that we have the capacity for handling the wars within our project so as to legitimately dissuade people from creating such a project on their own. That said, virtually all of the geography task forces and a number of the time period task forces are inactive, and would have been mothballed as independent projects a long time ago. Since the projects that allegedly run these task forces with us contribute little if anything to the mix it does seem to me that we could axe these fold them into the project proper to reduce overhead. At a minimum though, I would like the see the inactive task forces lose membership lists and have talk pages that redirect here so we can eliminate the need for the coordinators to cover TFs that are largely inactive. I know that many TFs that MBK leaves messages for concern ACR and PR and FAC related material have talk pages composed of nothing but said messages, and reducing the need for leaving so many messages on inactive TF talk pages would allow us to recycle time into more pressing matters like reviews. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I was wondering whether people are prompted to review an article by seeing a review alert for it on a TF talk page: it would be very interesting to find that out before we conclude they serve no purpose. Afterall, the amount of time it takes to post review notifications is trivial in the grand scheme of things.
- That said, I've always seen TFs as a much underused resource. One of the main reasons behind allocating coords to TFs was to try to kick-start the TFs into activity so the basis that, with a bit of leadership and perhaps some TF specific mini-projects, inactive editors would become active. (In fact, looking at the history of TFs, it only takes one energetic individual for the TF to start developing its own momentum.) This has not really happened and the bulk of coord activity has instead gone into one or two large drives.
- Wholesale mothballing of the TFs would, as Kirill rightly says, be a terrible mistake. Roger Davies talk 05:56, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I would like to wind up the task forces in there entirety but that simply cannot be done since some of the task forces we have serve as a fleet in being to allow us uncontested control of military related matters. I sited World War I and World War II as examples since they are the most often suggested projects, and we need these two task forces in place to show that we have the capacity for handling the wars within our project so as to legitimately dissuade people from creating such a project on their own. That said, virtually all of the geography task forces and a number of the time period task forces are inactive, and would have been mothballed as independent projects a long time ago. Since the projects that allegedly run these task forces with us contribute little if anything to the mix it does seem to me that we could axe these fold them into the project proper to reduce overhead. At a minimum though, I would like the see the inactive task forces lose membership lists and have talk pages that redirect here so we can eliminate the need for the coordinators to cover TFs that are largely inactive. I know that many TFs that MBK leaves messages for concern ACR and PR and FAC related material have talk pages composed of nothing but said messages, and reducing the need for leaving so many messages on inactive TF talk pages would allow us to recycle time into more pressing matters like reviews. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
I would suggest we move this discussion to WT:MHSTT and pull in the related discussion from the main talk page to avoid having multiple related conversations. We're going to need to run any idea we come up with past the membership anyways, so we might as well open up the brainstorming to everyone from the start. Kirill [talk] [prof] 17:48, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Banner integration for special projects
I've recently completed integrating support for OMT tagging into the project banner, and the implementation appears to be working correctly. I'm now wondering whether it might be a good idea to turn on similar tagging functionality for the other special projects? (OMT has a fairly complex feature set due to its use of five phases; the other projects could be done as straight listings for now.)
Thoughts? Kirill [talk] [prof] 03:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm all for that. In fact I would even go so far as to say it should be a mandatory thing for new special projects, but I would wait for input on the latter point before calling it project policy such as it were. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:14, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Category-based member tracking
Since we're proposing radical ideas and such: how about getting rid of the hand-maintained membership list and just having a member category instead? I'm fairly certain nobody uses it anyways, so there's little value in having to maintain it. Kirill [talk] [prof] 04:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- Question: Would such a category be able to determine who is active and who isn't? One of my gripes is that when looking at the current membership list it isn't always immediately obvious who among the active contributors is still with us, but I am not sure if that would carry over for a category based concept. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- Not directly, but given that we haven't really maintained the active/inactive distinction, I don't think it would be much of a loss. (Plus, this would segue neatly into getting rid of TF membership lists, per our discussion above.) Kirill [talk] [prof] 11:38, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Upcoming coordinator elections
Since I saw no objections tot he suggested time table I'm going to adopt it for the September coordinator elections. We will keep the coordinator numbers as they are now (14 and lead) on grounds that the year long term is new and that the extra coords can help fill in for those on vacation or otherwise unavailable. Two points we need to look at now:
- Do we have anything going up for ratification in the September coordinator vote?
- Do we know anyone that would make a coordinator for the project?
In the case of the former, if we do, then we can add the needed section and let the matter solve itself, in the case of the latter I would like us to extend a hand (in a recrument sense - hint, hint) to those whom we think would do well as coords and see if we can not coax them into running. TomStar81 (Talk) 06:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think we need any referenda this time around, since we're not making any real changes to the coordinator system. Other than that, everything looks fine; and if anyone knows someone who'd make a good coordinator, please do encourage them to run. Kirill [talk] [prof] 17:53, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Headings on main page
Based on some comments at the NYC WikiConference today, I've tried my hand at making the section headings on the main project page a bit friendlier for visitors. Comments would be welcome!
(I'm going to be posting some other ideas I've gathered at the conference this evening, incidentally.) Kirill [talk] [prof] 19:03, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Ideas from WikiConference NYC 2010
I've jotted down some ideas from WikiConference NYC 2010 at the strategy think tank; feedback there would be very appreciated. Kirill [talk] [prof] 04:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
ACR and PR review tallies
As discussed above, here are the ACR and PR tallies for the periods Jul-Dec 2090 and Jan-Jun 2010. I'm on holiday so I'm not around to dish out any awards, but I suggest award periods to correspond with the tally periods.
The periods are based on the closing date of ACRs and the archiving dates of PR. It quite easy now to work out tallies quarterly, so the next period would be Jul-Sep 2010 (awarded in time to be fanfared in the appropriate Bugle).
Obviously, you'll have to work out which awards to give whom, and someone will have to physically award them. The awards data will have to go into the next Bugle. The purpose after all is to encourage past reviewers to review again and to incentivise those that have never done it.
Incidentally, a point lost in the data. MBK and Eurocopter have done a great deal of the ACR clerking and closing: they deserve recognition for this. While we're on the subject, the B-class reviews are done by a surprisingly small number of people. They probably also deserve recognition is someone can trawl through the page history to pick uyp the regulars. Roger Davies talk 09:34, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
ACRs for closure
All A-class reviews are eligible for closure 28 days after they were opened, or 5 days if there is a clear consensus for either the promotion or non promotion of the article under review. Any A-class review filed on or before 17 June may be closed by an uninvolved coordinator. The following ACRs are ready to be closed by any non involved coordinator:
Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/SMS Rheinland - OMT article with sufficient support -MBK004 12:35, 9 August 2010 (UTC)- Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/USS Massachusetts (BB-2) - OMT article with sufficient support -MBK004 16:08, 14 August 2010 (UTC)
Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Assessment/Borodino class battlecruiser - OMT article with sufficient support -MBK004 15:13, 16 August 2010 (UTC)- Hello, Is anybody able to close these or am I about to do three involved closures? -MBK004 18:16, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- Bit short on time tonight, but if no-one has by tomorrow morning I'll do all three then (when my boss isn't looking). Ranger Steve (talk) 22:07, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- Drat, my boss must have heard me. Sorry, just got a phone call asking me to go to an event this morning. Not going to be at a computer. Ranger Steve (talk) 06:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- Considering that these articles have sat here for 12, 6 and 4 days. I have (in work as this is posted) gone ahead and made involved (as a fellow OMT member) closure of these three reviews as successful. I have not commented at all on each of these reviews and have made the requisite attempts to get an uninvolved coordinator to close before undertaking this course of action. -MBK004 03:05, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- No dramas from me with this. It had to be done. I am thinking of stopping my involvement with reviewing ACRs so that I can help with the closing. I could then just focus on reviewing at B class and GAN. AustralianRupert (talk) 07:30, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Considering that these articles have sat here for 12, 6 and 4 days. I have (in work as this is posted) gone ahead and made involved (as a fellow OMT member) closure of these three reviews as successful. I have not commented at all on each of these reviews and have made the requisite attempts to get an uninvolved coordinator to close before undertaking this course of action. -MBK004 03:05, 20 August 2010 (UTC)
- Drat, my boss must have heard me. Sorry, just got a phone call asking me to go to an event this morning. Not going to be at a computer. Ranger Steve (talk) 06:41, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- Bit short on time tonight, but if no-one has by tomorrow morning I'll do all three then (when my boss isn't looking). Ranger Steve (talk) 22:07, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- Hello, Is anybody able to close these or am I about to do three involved closures? -MBK004 18:16, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
Discussion
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1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 |
Strategy think tank organization
If anyone has a bit of free time, there's a discussion going on about how the new "Strategy Think Tank" should be organized that could use some opinions from more than just the three of us currently involved. :-) Kirill [talk] [prof] 03:24, 2 July 2010 (UTC)
Collaboration with the Smithsonian Institution
I'm currently involved in setting up a Wikimedia/SI collaboration, and I think that MILHIST could potentially play a significant role in the effort; I've started a discussion at WT:MILHIST#Collaboration with the Smithsonian Institution, and any comments there would be very welcome. Kirill [talk] [prof] 18:02, 4 July 2010 (UTC)
Flagged revisions and the Military history Project
I'm aware that its only in its trail stage, but I was wondering if I might start a discussion on the matter of flagged revisions to establish two important points:
- Where you guys stand on the matter of the use of flagged revisions, and
- Should we establish some sort of guideline(s) for their use within our project should the measure be adopted?
I for one feel that flagged revisions are not worth implementing in any respect; I think they dilute the already diluted interpretation of "The free encyclopedia that anyone can edit", but mine is but one opinion in this matter, and having a sense on where everyone else stands would be appreciated as well. On the matter of guidelines for the use of flagged revisions, I think that if flagged revisions must be used they should be limited to the military BLP articles within our scope. For all other articles, I think that semi-protection should be used instead. How about the rest of you? Where do you stand on the matter? TomStar81 (Talk) 02:45, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that the main point of flagged whatever is protecting BLP material. As someone who's watched the promises come and go over the last ... good lord, it's almost 4 years now ... my plan is not to care until it's actually here in a non-trial form. - Dank (push to talk) 03:27, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- P.S. I meant the discussions have been almost 4 years, it'll be 3 years for me in November. - Dank (push to talk) 03:31, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think this is out of our scope. The use of flagged revisions ought to be determined for all articles over here, not at Milhist. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 03:29, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- I know, but if they are implemented we can at least exert some control over where they end up applied within our article's scope (ie: "Flagged revisions should be used only in cases where consensus emerges that the use of flagged revisions is in the best interest of the article. In cases where flagged revisions are determined to be unneeded semi protection should be used instead.") so as to keep a handle on what they are used for. Now like you pointed out Ed, this is outside our scope specifically, but if they do decide to incorporate pending changes as policy then we can determine how our project will interpret the policy - essentially, we can observe the "spirit" of the policy rather than the "letter" of the policy. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:51, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that discussion of flagged revisions needs to be undertaken at the Wikipedia-level. However, as one comment it has caused problems in the World War II article - the large number of rejected changes by IP editors to that article mean that the watchlist system no longer really works for it as its possible for other edits to be made in between the IP edits. Nick-D (talk) 06:38, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed; flagged revisions/pending changes/whatever it's called at the moment is not really something that can be accepted or rejected by individual projects. Having said that, I do agree with Tom's point that the feature is really more suited for BLPs and other articles where there are concerns about BLP material in the text; indeed, that's the main context in which I support its use.
- Nick, your experience with the WWII article would certainly be valuable input when the results of the trial are evaluated; you should probably bring it up in the relevant central discussions. Kirill [talk] [prof] 15:43, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Will do. I've since turned flagged revisions off in the article and moved it back to semi protection. Nick-D (talk) 08:00, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- I've posted comments at Wikipedia:Pending changes/Feedback#World War II Nick-D (talk) 08:21, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Will do. I've since turned flagged revisions off in the article and moved it back to semi protection. Nick-D (talk) 08:00, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that discussion of flagged revisions needs to be undertaken at the Wikipedia-level. However, as one comment it has caused problems in the World War II article - the large number of rejected changes by IP editors to that article mean that the watchlist system no longer really works for it as its possible for other edits to be made in between the IP edits. Nick-D (talk) 06:38, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- I know, but if they are implemented we can at least exert some control over where they end up applied within our article's scope (ie: "Flagged revisions should be used only in cases where consensus emerges that the use of flagged revisions is in the best interest of the article. In cases where flagged revisions are determined to be unneeded semi protection should be used instead.") so as to keep a handle on what they are used for. Now like you pointed out Ed, this is outside our scope specifically, but if they do decide to incorporate pending changes as policy then we can determine how our project will interpret the policy - essentially, we can observe the "spirit" of the policy rather than the "letter" of the policy. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:51, 10 July 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps we should move this to the main talk page and see where the rest of the project members stand on the matter. This would also allow us the options of adding a note about the discussion to the current events template and adding something to the bugle to see about getting additional input. TomStar81 (Talk) 19:59, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see this as a matter for the project to consider, at this point. If the feature makes it out of a trial stage, and if it still resembles the current one at that point, and if the main policies on its use allow any discretion as to its use, then there would be something worth discussing; at the moment, however, all that we would accomplish would be to insert the project into a high-level political debate, which would have no real benefits and any number of drawbacks. Kirill [talk] [prof] 22:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- Fair enough. We'll take a "wait and see" approach and, well, wait and see what happens :) Hopefully the proposal will be -if not dropped entirely - then at least retooled to be more specific about when and where this type of protection get used. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:49, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- I've recently applied pending changes protection to an article where I'd otherwise have sprotted. Something of an experiment - I think clearer guidelines on where to use the different levels would be useful. EyeSerenetalk 10:56, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Fair enough. We'll take a "wait and see" approach and, well, wait and see what happens :) Hopefully the proposal will be -if not dropped entirely - then at least retooled to be more specific about when and where this type of protection get used. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:49, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
- I don't see this as a matter for the project to consider, at this point. If the feature makes it out of a trial stage, and if it still resembles the current one at that point, and if the main policies on its use allow any discretion as to its use, then there would be something worth discussing; at the moment, however, all that we would accomplish would be to insert the project into a high-level political debate, which would have no real benefits and any number of drawbacks. Kirill [talk] [prof] 22:01, 11 July 2010 (UTC)
¡Viva España!
So, Spain has officially won the World Cup. As per my personal policy, this calls for beer!
Also, my condolences to Team England (and Team USA), except not really.
From your friend and former fellow coordinator, Cam (Chat) 03:43, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- To be fair to the USA, football just wasn't our national pastime. Now if they were playing football instead of football, then we'd have own them. In any case, thanks for the drink; having lost - twice - to ghana, I really need to drown my sorrow. Actually I think most of the soccer loving USA fans need a drink right now. Oh well, here's to the next world cup (And to officials who actually count our goals :) TomStar81 (Talk) 06:07, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well at least the best and fair team won this year (not Fabio Grosso and Marco Materazzi) YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 06:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Meh - I'll keep my comments about the overpaid primadonnas in our least successful national team to myself (I prefer a real sport). Congrats to Spain though :) EyeSerenetalk 07:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- (edit conflict) Tom, that's because no other major country plays "our" football. :P I was rooting for the US and the Dutch from the beginning, so I'm glad both did well. The refs need more help, whether in video replays or extra men to watch for that stuff... Thanks for the condolences, Cam (except not really).
- @ES - cricket isn't a "real sport." Just saying. :-) —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 07:30, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well, if by 'sport' you mean something that takes less than a day to play or requires body armour... EyeSerenetalk 08:46, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Cricket involves body armour ... which is nearly all I know about it. Roger Davies talk 13:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Heh, true I guess though only for certain very important parts of the body... EyeSerenetalk 13:10, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Cricket involves body armour ... which is nearly all I know about it. Roger Davies talk 13:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well, if by 'sport' you mean something that takes less than a day to play or requires body armour... EyeSerenetalk 08:46, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Meh - I'll keep my comments about the overpaid primadonnas in our least successful national team to myself (I prefer a real sport). Congrats to Spain though :) EyeSerenetalk 07:27, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Well at least the best and fair team won this year (not Fabio Grosso and Marco Materazzi) YellowMonkey (vote in the Southern Stars and White Ferns supermodel photo poll) 06:12, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
I can see where this heading now:
- Englishman: Oh, it's Cricket. Marvelous game, really. You see, the bowler hurls the ball toward the batter who tries to play away a fine leg. He endeavors to score by dashing between the creases, provided the wicket keeper hasn't whipped his bails off, of course.
- American: Anybody get that?
In all seriousness though, cricket is not a game I understand, so I couldn't evaluate its position as a 'real sport'. The only cricket I am familiar with is the kind that makes that soothing chirping noise at night, and that is always been good enough for me :) TomStar81 (Talk) 09:02, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- You know, that's not a bad explanation. US football, football, cricket, bog snorkelling... any excuse for a beer really :) EyeSerenetalk 13:01, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- And cheese-rolling - a great favourite in Gloucester (pronounced Gloster, if anyone's interested). Roger Davies talk 13:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Don't let your wife hear that, ES – she might ban you from watching all sports! ;) @Roger, I see people running down a hill. Not sure when the cheese is rolled... but it looks fun nonetheless. :-) —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 20:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- They chase the cheese. I once had a go at it in Yorkshire - I mainly remember a feeling of impending doom as one's body accelerated faster than one's legs. Still, we got to eat the cheese afterwards :) EyeSerenetalk 22:04, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- I hated that feeling in PE in high school where you knew you were falling forward and tried to run faster to compensate for it but you were already going as fast as your feet could carry you so the only thing left to do was brace for the impact of the fall which inevitably hurt more than you thought it would because the forward momentum also left you with some manner of friction burns in addition to the cuts and or bruises you got from falling and then ricocheting off the ground at least once before coming to a full and complete stop on whatever surface you were fortunate or unfortunate to have landed on. It was one of the major reasons I never really got into sports, just didn't have that kind of endurance for the team. And if I didn't have that kind of endurance for the team, then there is no way I going to have that kind of endurance for the cheese. (Unless its macaroni and cheese, and even then it would have to be really good MaC :) TomStar81 (Talk) 07:11, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- C'mon guys, you're missing the one true sport. And those accidents hurt a lot more... Ranger Steve (talk) 07:31, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Nope – the best sport is over here. The only time you can purposely and deliberately smack something as hard as you can at one of your friends and not get yelled at for it. ;) —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 07:39, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- No no, you're getting confused with cricket again - much harder balls too. But I'm afraid if it doesn't have wheels, I'm not interested. Shame I live in the worst country in the world for cycling.... Ranger Steve (talk) 18:00, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- Nope – the best sport is over here. The only time you can purposely and deliberately smack something as hard as you can at one of your friends and not get yelled at for it. ;) —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 07:39, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- C'mon guys, you're missing the one true sport. And those accidents hurt a lot more... Ranger Steve (talk) 07:31, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- I hated that feeling in PE in high school where you knew you were falling forward and tried to run faster to compensate for it but you were already going as fast as your feet could carry you so the only thing left to do was brace for the impact of the fall which inevitably hurt more than you thought it would because the forward momentum also left you with some manner of friction burns in addition to the cuts and or bruises you got from falling and then ricocheting off the ground at least once before coming to a full and complete stop on whatever surface you were fortunate or unfortunate to have landed on. It was one of the major reasons I never really got into sports, just didn't have that kind of endurance for the team. And if I didn't have that kind of endurance for the team, then there is no way I going to have that kind of endurance for the cheese. (Unless its macaroni and cheese, and even then it would have to be really good MaC :) TomStar81 (Talk) 07:11, 13 July 2010 (UTC)
- They chase the cheese. I once had a go at it in Yorkshire - I mainly remember a feeling of impending doom as one's body accelerated faster than one's legs. Still, we got to eat the cheese afterwards :) EyeSerenetalk 22:04, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- Don't let your wife hear that, ES – she might ban you from watching all sports! ;) @Roger, I see people running down a hill. Not sure when the cheese is rolled... but it looks fun nonetheless. :-) —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 20:05, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
- And cheese-rolling - a great favourite in Gloucester (pronounced Gloster, if anyone's interested). Roger Davies talk 13:09, 12 July 2010 (UTC)
Testing the water
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
I was quite happy to give up on this and leave it well alone in the hope it might slowly die, but the great Blablaaa wikidrama shows no signs of abating. It is now spread across no less than 2 wiki talk pages (Neutral POV Noticeboard and our own talk page, which has the longest continuos thread I think I've ever seen), at least one article talk page (at length on Talk:Operation Charnwood) and about half a dozen user talk pages.
The list of people who have fallen out with this user is long (and rapidly lengthening). I believe that most of these users have been able to look after themselves, but it has quite obviously been a stressful ride for most, which is evidenced in many of the posts (ok, I don't know this for definite, but it would certainly stress me out). I gave up on trying to help him a week or two ago, and really couldn't be bothered to have any more to do with it (despite his sudden switch to attacking me), but now User:Chaosdruid, who has spent a very long time trying to reach a compromise, is suffering more and more attacks, and Blablaa's forum shopping is now starting to make User:EnigmaMcmxc appear as if he is some sort of anti-German revisionist historian. I think this has come to a point where enough is enough; there really has been too much systematic abuse of other editors (several of whom have genuinely tried to resolve the dispute amicably and have given Blablaaa far too much of their time), too much forum shopping (cleverly trying to dress the same point up in different clothes) and too much bitching, whining and woe is me on the various talk pages (he just claimed that Chaos Druid is harassing him). I'm sure that this will quickly endear me even more to Blablaaa, but I can only remain neutral for so long in front of such disruptive behaviour.
I know that several people have now had way more than enough of this issue, so I'm sorry to bring it up again, but I felt it was worth raising here. I'm not into wiki dramas, but Blablaaa's effect on the project as a whole is starting to have some fairly negative connotations that I don't think we should ignore. I'm worried we might start losing editors because if it, and certainly any sort of "fact checking" benefit that Blablaaa might have is easily outweighed by the endless effort that editor's need to go to to work with him. Does anyone have any other opinions on the matter? Ranger Steve (talk) 19:01, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Gentlemen, I feel the time has come to take the drastic step of moving this issue to the arbitration committee. I see no end in sight for Blablaa's disruptive editing, yet his occasionally useful contributions make it difficult for the administrators and for the coordinators to effectively keep blablaa in check with the policies and guidelines on sight. It is clear by the multiple threads highlighted above that attempts at both mediation and consensus are not working, so I would like to refer the matter to the arbitration committee for two reasons.
- First, the committee should be able to place restrictions on Blablaa's editing which will make it much easier for us to lock down on his disruptive behavior when it pops up. Attempts at doing this have thus far had limited results; the last time an indefinite block was imposed it was lifted three days later due to complaints that ran contrary to consensus. If the committee moves to restrict blablaa's disruptive editting with sanctions then it should be easier for us to block him and keep the articles and the POV down.
- In the case of the second reason, the committee should be in a position to limit or prohibit blablaa's editing of the German articles, which I think would result in one of two possible outcomes: he will either find another niche and contribute constructively without the need to add or debate POV German issues with the rest of us, or he will ignore the committees warning and edit anyway which would allow those of us here with admin privileges to block him and revert the contributions as they occur. Note that in both cases, power would be restored to the admins and the coordinators to better govern the matter of the disruptive editing.
- Before going to the Arbitration committee though I want to hear about alternatives that could be implemented. I'm growing tired of watching my editors get harassed by this guy, and IMO we are out of options to deal with this peacefully, but I am willing to listen to anyone else's ideas on what our next move should be. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:09, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- Generally speaking, the Committee is unlikely to accept the matter for consideration in the absence of a prior user conduct RFC, so that should be the first step. Kirill [talk] [prof] 21:49, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
- maybe tomstar should show me any diff which can be considered german POV , so maybe tomstar you give me one? Blablaaa (talk) 05:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- and honestly maybe it would be ok to go somewhere with neutral admins then i will show about 50 diffs showing wrong accusations by ranger enigma chaosdruid, and so on. I will show one diff: what they claimed then i will show a dif:f where i ask for a proove and no proof followed then i will show some diifs: showing what they did. But then tomstar you will also search sanctions and restriction for them ? Iam interested if i show what people claimed and said and how much they lied and disrupted wiki with this, are you then willing to treat them like you want to treat me? I also intent to raise and issue regarding systematic bias of milhist. I asked one time for neutral help and got support and 3!! milhist editors came into the discussion and tried to argue against their decission. Iam prepared for showing several accusation and insults agsint me. Iam also prepared for showing evidence for systematic bias. The only reason why i have problems on the articles is because i dont except allied bias. I showed that sources were misused and got immediatly support by neutral editors. I would never get this support and milhist. The reason for that is obvioius. Iam hope that the committee has enought time and judges like a neutral "court". The diffs and 1000 wrong accusations against me are enought to proof the unfair behaviour against me. But please consider not blocking me until i had the chance to speak to neutral committee Blablaaa (talk) 05:16, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- We can simply start with tomstar giving me the edit which is german POV. Please show me any diff. Blablaaa (talk) 05:18, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't been following what's going on with this, and frankly I don't really care. But the way the above post is written and a cursory glance at the discussion tells me four things:
- Blablaaa needs to learn how to clearly convey his ideas, because I don't enjoy deciphering his words.
- A user conduct RfC would be a good idea.
- In this RfC, Blablaaa should supply these claimed diffs instead of just stating he can "show about 50 diffs". Claimed evidence != real evidence.
- Blablaaa needs to read and understand WP:TLDR.
- As a side note, I hold Ranger in very high regard. To see him so frustrated by a single individual told me a lot about the individual, even before I perused the discussion. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 05:59, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- An alternative to RFCU/ArbCom is to take this to AN/I; see what the consensus there is and whether an uninvolved administrator will intervene. AN/I can and does often also impose editing restrictions (usually topic or interaction bans). It will probably be much quicker. Roger Davies talk 06:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that there had already been an ANI discussion? —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:24, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yep, at WP:AN, back in April. It can always be raised again, Roger Davies talk 06:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think I was confused by a comment in the WT:MILHIST discussion that basically said "it is at ANI", but now I'm pretty sure that was referring to a different civility-related discussion. My bad, thanks for the clarification! —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:49, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yep, at WP:AN, back in April. It can always be raised again, Roger Davies talk 06:34, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I was under the impression that there had already been an ANI discussion? —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:24, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- An alternative to RFCU/ArbCom is to take this to AN/I; see what the consensus there is and whether an uninvolved administrator will intervene. AN/I can and does often also impose editing restrictions (usually topic or interaction bans). It will probably be much quicker. Roger Davies talk 06:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I haven't been following what's going on with this, and frankly I don't really care. But the way the above post is written and a cursory glance at the discussion tells me four things:
- We can simply start with tomstar giving me the edit which is german POV. Please show me any diff. Blablaaa (talk) 05:18, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- and honestly maybe it would be ok to go somewhere with neutral admins then i will show about 50 diffs showing wrong accusations by ranger enigma chaosdruid, and so on. I will show one diff: what they claimed then i will show a dif:f where i ask for a proove and no proof followed then i will show some diifs: showing what they did. But then tomstar you will also search sanctions and restriction for them ? Iam interested if i show what people claimed and said and how much they lied and disrupted wiki with this, are you then willing to treat them like you want to treat me? I also intent to raise and issue regarding systematic bias of milhist. I asked one time for neutral help and got support and 3!! milhist editors came into the discussion and tried to argue against their decission. Iam prepared for showing several accusation and insults agsint me. Iam also prepared for showing evidence for systematic bias. The only reason why i have problems on the articles is because i dont except allied bias. I showed that sources were misused and got immediatly support by neutral editors. I would never get this support and milhist. The reason for that is obvioius. Iam hope that the committee has enought time and judges like a neutral "court". The diffs and 1000 wrong accusations against me are enought to proof the unfair behaviour against me. But please consider not blocking me until i had the chance to speak to neutral committee Blablaaa (talk) 05:16, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- maybe tomstar should show me any diff which can be considered german POV , so maybe tomstar you give me one? Blablaaa (talk) 05:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Generally speaking, the Committee is unlikely to accept the matter for consideration in the absence of a prior user conduct RFC, so that should be the first step. Kirill [talk] [prof] 21:49, 19 July 2010 (UTC)
Actually it did also go to ANI in July. Anotherclown (talk) 14:36, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- What is RFC? Blablaaa (talk) 07:38, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- A Request for Comment. It enables the community to examine user conduct and make recommendations. Roger Davies talk 07:48, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- What is RFC? Blablaaa (talk) 07:38, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
(od) I've completely washed my hands of Blablaaa and have no interest in contributing to anything he's involved in. I'll make an exception for ANI/RfC though. EyeSerenetalk 08:05, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think an option would be if i stop editing for a while. At the moment iam collecting data to finally going to some admins and discuss the subtle bias editing of some user and the "protection" offered by admins. Iam pretty confident regarding the outcome. But iam afraid that a "possible block" would hinder me. Though i dont believe i will get blocked because i did nothing to justify a block. Furthermore people look much worse then me ( at least for neutral eyes). So i think its a good option if you postponed your attempt to block me until i brought the case, regarding what happens on milhist ww2, to the correct place. This would mean you spare some time and achieve the same result. At the moment my major interesst is eliminating the bias and this will only happen after some comittee judged this. So i dont care in charnwood or whatever. After this you can do whatever you want. Your points will look less valid after this anyways. If i dont edit ( including talk ) this is the same effect of a block so i guess this would be good deal. You immediatly stop my edits and iam safe that i can bring my report to some kind of court. Blablaaa (talk) 08:09, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I completely understand EyeSerene, and much like Ed's observation of myself (cheers Ed!), your obvious frustration is a fairly good litmus test. I'm personally more inclined toward RFC at the moment. While not opposed to ANI I'm in no rush to get any sort of results (it just can't happen with this user) and it's been there plenty of times before (there was a brief discussion there related to this drama about incivility, sorry Ed, forgot to mention that). Added to which, ANI can often turn into quite lengthy, bitter and unorganised disputes. RFC is the next step in seeking more formalised resolution and will (hopefully) let us all lay our opinions out in a slightly more organised way. In the long term it may also be better for further mediation processes (bearing in mind what Krill says about Arbitration). Ranger Steve (talk) 08:24, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'd suggest a formal process like a RfC. Based on previous discussions of this editor, an ANI post will quickly turn into a very long and difficult to follow discussion with accusations being hurled around in all directions. This will probably not lead to the situation being resolved as it would be difficult for an admin to reach a conclusion. In contrast, using a RfC would impose discipline on the discussion and make it easier for uninvolved editors to reach conclusions on what's going on. This will be of benefit to Blablaaa (as he will be able to make statements and respond to other editors' statements in an easy to follow manner) and other involved editors (as they will have an opportunity to state their case and relate experiences). Nick-D (talk) 08:49, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- I agree that an RfC/U is a better option than ANI and will establish the groundwork should other routes prove necessary. I have a couple of minor reservations: one, that participation is often limited to the involved parties; and two, that the RfC doesn't lose focus on user conduct and become a rehash of the various content disputes. However, hopefully it'll be productive.EyeSerenetalk 08:57, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Did anyone notice that i already explained that i see no value in discussing my behaviour and my future here? I want to finally report in detail the alledged bias . For this i need some time to collect data. Its also high likly that this is the end of my editing . You can plan your RFC anyway but you simply could let it and accept my "deal" which means you get exactly want you want. Blablaaa (talk) 09:07, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- That's a good point EyeSerene. I'd hope there would be enough involved parties to make it worthwhile though, but there is a danger that it could easily degenerate with this user. Ranger Steve (talk) 09:18, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- So... what next? Blablaaa has indicated that he sees no point in participating in an RfC. I'm against process for process' sake, but given his other comments in this thread it night be worthwhile anyway. Those of us who've been dealing with this since last year (when he first started contributing as an anon) have seen him come and go before, and personally I really don't want to be back here again in a few months' time with nothing resolved. EyeSerenetalk 14:26, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- Likewise. Can't say I'm surprised that Blablaaa sees no value in it; admittedly there'd be no point in doing it if Blablaaa just left, but my crystal ball tells me we'll probably have to do this all over again if we don't take formal steps. That RFC rule about 2 users contacting the individual on their talk page to seek dispute resolution may fail us though - unless they can be backdated? Ranger Steve (talk) 17:05, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- The RFC certification criterion includes attempts to resolve the dispute on any talk page involved in the matter, not just the user's own talk page; from a procedural standpoint, anyone involved in the dispute on either the project pages or the article pages could potentially certify, and it's not uncommon for a dozen editors to certify in the case of a large dispute. Kirill [talk] [prof] 02:18, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Likewise. Can't say I'm surprised that Blablaaa sees no value in it; admittedly there'd be no point in doing it if Blablaaa just left, but my crystal ball tells me we'll probably have to do this all over again if we don't take formal steps. That RFC rule about 2 users contacting the individual on their talk page to seek dispute resolution may fail us though - unless they can be backdated? Ranger Steve (talk) 17:05, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
maybe a good step would be talking directly to me because i said i could stop edting. But you prefer to ignore me, ^^ how matured... I am willing to stop participating until i reported my case in full detail to a comittee. And by the way if you finally do this RFS stuff would it be possible that a german editor takes part this would make conversation muhc more fluently and i would be able to explain the issues very detailed and short in my nativ language.Blablaaa (talk) 17:33, 20 July 2010 (UTC)
- @Rangersteve. I'm disgusted beyond words. Completely appalled.
- @TomStar81. In regards to your wall of text, you sir are hardly neutral here. You are a friend of Nick-D's (the admin who abused his tools by blocking Blablaaa 5 times). You said: "..the last time an indefinite block was imposed it was lifted three days later due to complaints that ran contrary to consensus." That is not true. The community decided that your friend Nick's block was bad. Nick, (like I said on AN) abused his tools plain and simple. Are you calling the community liars? Admin User:Jéské Couriano over turned Nick-D's block with his edit summary stating "consensus is block is bad" as seen here. Are you also calling Jeske a liar? Please try to be honest and accurate. You said: "I'm growing tired of watching my editors get harassed by this guy". Which editors? Do you mean your buddies from MILHIST? Nick? Enigma? Eyeserene? Ed? Rangersteve? Who exactly? What, you're tired because many (Enigma etc) edits/sources are questioned?? And you got upset? It's completely normal to question edits that do not correspond with sources. It's not a German POV and it's not disruptive. It's the correct thing to do to ensure NPOV is achieved. I am growing very tired of hearing "disruption", and civility and POV being used as excuses (in regards to Blab) to distract from the truth and to shut the door on open discussions. I have zero energy for political wiki games that I see too many editors playing on wiki. I'm not saying you are doing this. I'm speaking in general. However, I'm sorry, but I do not believe you are here in good faith. I've spent hours going through your history. I honestly don't trust you.
- @Tomstar81. Please also provide evidence. Give me the difs to prove your allegations in regards to a German POV? We need evidence.
- I'm deeply concerned at the large number of editors posting here, nearly all of whom have had disagreements with Blablaaa in the past or who are close friends of admin Nick-D. Nick-D, Eyeserene (buddy of Nick's), Tomstar81(buddy of Nick's), Ed (buddy of Nick's and Enigma) and RangerSteve. These are hardly a group of neutral editors.
- An RFC could be good as it would allow neutral editors to judge fairly. We need neutral outside input and not the MILHIST editors who have biased issues with Blablaaa. It would also be good if editors were able to speak honestly and freely without fear. Many of the wiki policies (CIV,NPA,AGF) are often abused by some to instil fear or to prevent folks from speaking openly, and I think that hurts the project as a whole. It's a real tragedy that Wiki does not operate the way the real world does. If wiki was more like the real world, we'd accomplish so much more through open dialogue without the fear. Caden cool 04:26, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I'm relatively sure that I have never interacted with Enigma before, thanks. When I come into a dispute, I don't allow friendships to cloud my judgment. I don't really care that Blablaaa was blocked by Nick before and it was later overturned; it has no impact on my reasoning. If my friend was wrong, then I will either tell them as much or I won't comment. I'm not going to defend a poor decision simply because a friend made it.
- I'm confused that you are including Ranger there. He certainly was a neutral party, at least before he tried to bridge the divide but got tarred and feathered for his trouble.
- "An RFC could be good as it would allow neutral editors to judge fairly." -- Good, we're all on the same page! We need new editors, ones who have not been party to the plethora of past disputes, to come in and provide neutral voices to hopefully build a bridge between the two sides. If that can't be done, or if one side is 'correct' (for lack of a better word), then hopefully they will be able to determine that too.
- "It would also be good if editors were able to speak honestly and freely without fear" -- Fear of ... what? After what happened to Ranger when he tried to come in as a neutral editor, I was certainly 'fearful' of entering this dialogue. Otherwise, I don't see what you have to be afraid of unless you start attacking other people. The pendulum only swings so far on either side; one is free speech, the other is NPA. Go past a certain point and you will be blocked. So, why would you be fearful if you aren't throwing ad hominem remarks at other people? —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 05:11, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- @theEd17. "It would also be good if editors were able to speak honestly and freely without fear" -- Fear of ... what? Fear of retaliation from the abusive boot stomping civility/censorship police, for speaking the honest to God truth. And no, I'm not talking about people cussing or being vulgar or using CAPS. I'm talking about good editors being punished for speaking honestly and openly.Yes, politics do play a role on wiki whether or not people want to believe that or not. Some play the political game well (off wiki of course) and use cleaverly disguised false reasons to silence the opponent on wiki. (examples:an honest remark/observation gets turned into something its not by calling it incivility, lack of AGF, a NPA violation, thus illegal blocks get handed out) It's a real tragedy that Wiki does not operate the way the real world does. If wiki was more like the real world, we'd accomplish so much more through open dialogue without the fear of retaliation from the abusive boot stomping civility/censorship police. Caden cool 06:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
(od) I think it would be unfortunate if this page turned into yet another extension of the wider dispute. If no-one else has done so, I'll try to find the time to file an RfC/U later today. Can I respectfully suggest that we save further comment for that venue? EyeSerenetalk 07:31, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- @EyeSerene. No. No. No. Please do not file an RfC/U. You are not a neutral admin here. A report should be filed by an unbiased, neutral party, which you clearly are not. Caden cool 07:48, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is no requirement that only uninvolved parties can initiate RFC/Us. As they form part of the dispute resolution process they're actually well suited for involved parties to help them resolve the dispute. Nick-D (talk) 07:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I expected this from you Nick so I'm not surprised. You are a very involved party (and as you know I don't trust you from past experience) and so it's not helpful. We need a fair, unbiased, neutral party. It's the only way for justice to be judged fairly. Caden cool 08:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- What? Anyone can initiate a RFC/U; I don't see why we need "a fair, unbiased, neutral party"? We need neutral editors to participate, yes, but not to begin. I also can't understand your attack on Nick, seeing as his comment was all facts? See through your hatred, anger, or whatever it is, and read what people (and you) are writing, dude... —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 08:20, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I expected this from you Nick so I'm not surprised. You are a very involved party (and as you know I don't trust you from past experience) and so it's not helpful. We need a fair, unbiased, neutral party. It's the only way for justice to be judged fairly. Caden cool 08:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- There is no requirement that only uninvolved parties can initiate RFC/Us. As they form part of the dispute resolution process they're actually well suited for involved parties to help them resolve the dispute. Nick-D (talk) 07:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
@Ed. "See through your hatred, anger, or whatever it is, and read what people (and you) are writing, dude..." Please do not attack me. I have read what Nick said and I responded honestly without the allegations you've made. I want a fair RFC/U to be filed. Is that too much to ask for? I do not deserve to be abused by you for asking. Caden cool 08:35, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- My point was that I don't see why a fair RFC/U requires an uninvolved editor to read through all the reams of text to find diffs and be able to summarize the problem. Regarding Nick, that wasn't intended as an attack... "hatred" was probably a tad too strong of a term to use. I apologize. I just don't see why you attacked Nick for a statement that consisted of pure fact. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 08:43, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
My apologies to Caden, but I think your understanding of RfC/U requirements is faulty. I'd rather not be doing this - I've got far better things to do with my time - but I really think we've reached a point where there's no choice. I've started to put together a draft at User:EyeSerene/Sandbox/RFC draft. I haven't done one of these before so any input is welcome (especially to the "Evidence of disputed behavior", "Applicable policies and guidelines", "Evidence of trying and failing to resolve the dispute" and "Users certifying the basis for this dispute" sections). However, please bear in mind that the purpose of a draft is more to ensure the RfC is formatted and presented correctly rather than to start the actual dispute resolution process itself. EyeSerenetalk 09:09, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- @Ed. Your apology is accepted. Thank you dude :)
But I honestly did not attack Nick. I'm sorry you misunderstood me.
- @EyeSerene. Sounds fair, I misunderstood the process so go ahead with the draft :)
- Something very important has been ignored above and I'm worried. Blablaaa said:" And by the way if you finally do this RFS (RFC) stuff would it be possible that a german editor takes part this would make conversation muhc more fluently and i would be able to explain the issues very detailed and short in my nativ language.Blablaaa (talk) 17:33, 20 July 2010 (UTC)" This is a reasonable request. I support it fully without question. On a side-note I also noticed that he said he was being "ignored" and asked that yall speak to him rather than disclude him. Caden cool 09:25, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I appreciate that Blablaaa feels he's being ignored. I think that's a result of editors trying to discuss what to do about him while he's actually listening in; no rudeness was intended. I believe the awkwardness in these situations is a price worth paying for the transparency of conducting our business in the open, and I hope Blablaaa can forgive us for talking more about him than with him.
- If Blablaaa wants a German-speaking editor to help him out with translation, that seems perfectly fair. However, I'm slightly concerned that he wants to present his case for everyone else being biased, lying and POV-pushing rather than addressing his own conduct (which is what the RfC is about). I have no objection to him making whatever arguments he sees fit, but in the interests of fairness to him I wonder if he'd be better not using this RfC to do it. I honestly don't know - as I say, it's the first RfC I've been involved with, so if anyone can advise that would be useful. EyeSerenetalk 09:52, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Though I've no doubt that I'll be seen as part of this alleged MILHIST 'conspiracy', I've added my own outside view of these proceedings to the draft RfC, and will gladly look at the RfC and endorse it when filled in. Skinny87 (talk) 11:04, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
is this draft open now ? can i reply somewhere? Blablaaa (talk) 11:12, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think the draft is open here Blablaaa, and I would reckon that you can respond. I would suggest only making one summarised reply, however, and not multiple responses, to aid comprehension and speed of assessment once it goes live.
- thank you. I think its not possible to describe the situation in a short post. I guess oversimplyfing the issue helps others more than me. I want others do read all. Truth comes with understanding the complexity. But i dont see where i can respond directly, but i will search for itBlablaaa (talk) 12:09, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Your statement should go here. Parsecboy (talk) 12:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- -.- dont know why i did saw this. ThanksBlablaaa (talk) 12:19, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Your statement should go here. Parsecboy (talk) 12:13, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- thank you. I think its not possible to describe the situation in a short post. I guess oversimplyfing the issue helps others more than me. I want others do read all. Truth comes with understanding the complexity. But i dont see where i can respond directly, but i will search for itBlablaaa (talk) 12:09, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Shall I have a go at the "Attempts to resolve the dispute" section? Looks like a good place for my input to the page (I can't really consider myself an "outside opinion" anymore). Ranger Steve (talk) 14:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- please do so i have already the diffs showing how you not tried to help. Blablaaa (talk) 15:55, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the snide comment, Blablaa; it really helped things move along. Please start commenting on actions, not people. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 17:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- and this from your side ^^ Blablaaa (talk) 18:01, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks for the snide comment, Blablaa; it really helped things move along. Please start commenting on actions, not people. —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 17:24, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- please do so i have already the diffs showing how you not tried to help. Blablaaa (talk) 15:55, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
- Shall I have a go at the "Attempts to resolve the dispute" section? Looks like a good place for my input to the page (I can't really consider myself an "outside opinion" anymore). Ranger Steve (talk) 14:59, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
(od) I'll leave this note here, but the draft talk page might be a better venue from now on just to keep everything central :) I think the basics are now in place, although please see my note on the talk page. Blablaaa, I don't think it matters if you take a day or two to post your response because RfCs are usually open for quite a while. You don't need to feel rushed. Thanks all, EyeSerenetalk 18:44, 21 July 2010 (UTC) people will read it they will start to get opinions. Established opinions are harder to change. Thats why i would have prefered to show enigmas ( and yours ) bias and the systematic bias before the thing started. But now people will read the wrong accusations and see no respond of me because i want to respind later. I explained my point and you choose to ignore it. Its ok we will see, good luckBlablaaa (talk) 19:39, 21 July 2010 (UTC)
Now that this is live, I'd like to leave the above coversation at arm's length. I have points related to the current RFC I would like feedback on:
- Should we add this to the milhist template? In support I point out that 1)We cover current events there, and this is a current event, and 2) it would help draw more users to the rfc which could help us find more people who have an opinion on the matter. This works both ways in that it may help draw out additional members who back Blablaaa or Caden, but it also has the potential to turn the RFC into a one-sided rout if more people emerge to support our views rather than Caden and Blablaaa's views. In opposition I point out that 1) it is already listed at WP:RFC, and 2) this is project dedicate to improving wikipedia's military history related content, not a news ticker, and the rfc is not really related to milhist news beyond the fact it happens to involved a number or our editors. I expect we will here from both parties on the matter, but I remind everyone that no action will be taken until we reach consensusus on the matter, so if this ends up in the milhist template without consensus yank it out ASAP.
- At the risk of upsetting everyone involved in this I would like to see that situation resolve itself in such a way that Blablaaa ends up on probation becuase as much as I hate to admit he has raised a few valuable points in the past and if we can compell a talk first action later aproach in which edits are added by consensus from both Blablaaa and other community editors he may yet turn into a valuable assest. I know that probably doesn't sound attractive to a lot of you - Nick-D and EyeSerene are the first two people I can think of you would have a stake in seeing Blablaa gone completely - but I would prefer a situtation in which no one ends up unconditionally vioctorious.
- Most ominiously for me (and I hope the rest of you too): how did we all end up in this situation? Surely we all could have done things differently, but in the interest of learning from past mistakes I would like to hear back on whether we should have done more earlier or whether we would have ended up at rfc anyway. I see this rfc as a failure of both sides to agree with each other, and although I admit that at this point I feel the rfc is needed, I am open to hearing what we could have done differently earlier to better handle this situation. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:52, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Perhaps the best thing for now is simply to let the RFC run its course, keep all comment peripheral or otherwise to that page, and turn instead to other Milhist matters? Roger Davies talk 22:00, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps that would be the best for everyone. Most of us have dwelt on this long enough. TomStar81 (Talk) 22:28, 23 July 2010 (UTC)
Outstanding matters
In an attempt to keep things from slipping through the cracks, here are—to the best of my recollection—the outstanding matters that we ought to deal with in the near future:
- MILMOS reorganization
- The discussion at WT:MILHIST seems to have concluded with no opposition to our proposal, so I think we can proceed with implementing this. I think the cleanest way to move forward would be to host the three subpages in our project space initially:
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Style guide (Naming conventions, Usage and style, References and citations, Templates, Categories)
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Content guide (Article content)
- Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Notability guide (Notability)
- Once we've split the pages and cleaned up the various links to and among the guidelines, we can move the first subpage to Wikipedia:Manual of Style (military history) and create an appropriate MoS sub-category for it.
- The discussion at WT:MILHIST seems to have concluded with no opposition to our proposal, so I think we can proceed with implementing this. I think the cleanest way to move forward would be to host the three subpages in our project space initially:
- Strategy Think Tank
- The STT seems to be languishing a bit. Assuming that we want to continue with it and bring it to full activity, I think we should make an effort to advertise its presence more; I see a number of different options:
- (a) Add it as a tab from the main page tab bar (e.g. "Strategy", next to "Logistics")
- (b) Add it as a collapsible block on the navigation template, with the main subpages listed below it
- (c) Add a note about it to the main talk page editnotice, directing editors to it for brainstorming discussions
- (d) Add a note about it to the welcome template
- Some or all of these could be implemented, depending on what we want to do. More generally, we should probably try and start some actual brainstorming discussions there (e.g. future drives, museum collaboration, etc.), but that's a bit longer-term.
- The STT seems to be languishing a bit. Assuming that we want to continue with it and bring it to full activity, I think we should make an effort to advertise its presence more; I see a number of different options:
- Academy
- We should try and move forward with cleaning up the academy so that it's a bit more usable as a learning tool. The first step would probably be to move the redlinks elsewhere—the STT is a good place—but then we'll need to actually roll up our sleeves and start copyediting the individual articles into more coherent form. Any ideas on how we can best organize the effort? Should we coordinate it through the STT as well?
- Military fiction task force
- When this was originally created by WP:NOVELS, there was a brief discussion here about turning it into a joint TF with them, but we decided to defer any action until we had completed our internal task force reorganization; now would probably be an appropriate time to pick this up and approach Novels with the idea again.
Any thoughts on these items would be appreciated. If anyone recalls anything else that we need to deal with, please feel free to bring it up as well. Kirill [talk] [prof] 01:38, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- Looks good. A couple of other things to perhaps consider ....
- Is it time yet to dish out reviewers awards again, with suitable fanfares/attendant publicity?
- Can we avoid future gaps by planning the Bugle a couple of issues in advance? And, if so, get some articles/essays commissioned for it? (If these could also be current Academy redlinks, then two birds, one stone.)
- Roger Davies talk 03:40, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- Definitely. To the above I'd add that there are a number of outstanding discussion ideas that have been suggested over past months, such as the development of various notability guidelines, the scope of fiction in milhist (maybe another guideline), a naming guideline for foreign ranks, and how we should be using the infobox (which I think is one point we can detach from recent events as being worth further thought). I think these could all be fruitful subjects for the STT. Perhaps it would be worth creating a section where these and other ideas can be listed as they come up? Often when they're raised is not an opportune time for addressing them, and possibly not every idea is appropriate, but we ought to maintain a record both so that they don't get overlooked and to provide a bank of subjects for the STT to work on. EyeSerenetalk 06:31, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- Adding some now :) EyeSerenetalk 15:34, 24 July 2010 (UTC)
- Some replies on a couple points: I'm not sure if Novels could effectively mount any sort of opposition to it anyway, it's mostly dead.
- Reviewers' awards would be good if someone will volunteer to count the lists.
- I think that essays and editorials are the only things that can possibly be made ready for The Bugle long beforehand? Unless that's what you were asking for? —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:55, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, essays/editorials were exactly what I had in mind for advance preparation. They are time-consuming to write and benefit from mulling and polishing. Having a rolling schedule of these covering the next two/three issues makes it much easier to plan ahead. The schedule needn't be set in concrete (some things will inevitably run late anyway) but it will provide ideas for perhaps adding supporting things or updating the relvant sections of the Academy. Roger Davies talk 07:27, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think it's worth widely advertising to the project that we're encouraging submission for essays/editorials. It would be great to get more involvement from editors outside the coords/former coords circle (maybe we could even invite contributions from editors outside the project on certain subjects - User:Moonriddengirl springs to mind for a feature about copyright/plagiarism). EyeSerenetalk 09:08, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Absolutely. It's a good way of getting more Academy content too. Roger Davies talk 11:17, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I think it's worth widely advertising to the project that we're encouraging submission for essays/editorials. It would be great to get more involvement from editors outside the coords/former coords circle (maybe we could even invite contributions from editors outside the project on certain subjects - User:Moonriddengirl springs to mind for a feature about copyright/plagiarism). EyeSerenetalk 09:08, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Yes, essays/editorials were exactly what I had in mind for advance preparation. They are time-consuming to write and benefit from mulling and polishing. Having a rolling schedule of these covering the next two/three issues makes it much easier to plan ahead. The schedule needn't be set in concrete (some things will inevitably run late anyway) but it will provide ideas for perhaps adding supporting things or updating the relvant sections of the Academy. Roger Davies talk 07:27, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- So, does anyone have any further comments on the first two items (the MILMOS reorganization and the STT linking)? If not, I'll go ahead and start implementing the needed changes over the next few days. Kirill [talk] [prof] 03:42, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- No objections to that. I think consensus is crystal clear on the MILMOS issue, and the STT ought to be linked more prominently to get us all into the habit of using it. Have you got a preference for a subject for the first brainstorming session to get things kicked off? EyeSerenetalk 07:43, 27 July 2010 (UTC)
- Ditto what EyeSerene said. I can't see the harm in carrying out those two actions. --Patar knight - chat/contributions 00:51, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Thirded the above. :) —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 01:02, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I'll move forward with those two items shortly. As far as the first brainstorming topic, I'm not sure; perhaps something about the Academy, to roll in the third item in the list? Or is the expected effort there too administrative in nature to need project-wide brainstorming? Kirill [talk] [prof] 12:47, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hmm, not sure really. I think there are things we could usefully discuss re the Academy: how it should be structured (eg What distinguishes a course from an essay? How do we link content together? Do we want a standard format? What should that be?...); how we oversee it; how we go about copyediting and collating what we've already got etc. Whether all this requires brainstorming or just a couple of editors with the time and stamina to take it by the scruff of the neck and get stuck in - as I've meant to do on more than one occasion - I don't know. EyeSerenetalk 14:27, 28 July 2010 (UTC)
Thanks for the milmos split, I was not opposed to it and I'm glad to see this moving forward. On the matter of the academy, some discussion among members concerning the questions of formatting and the difference between a course and an essay may help us grasp which way the members want to move this thing. As the for the SST: like all new things I think there is some reluctance to use it since no one is sure exactly how it is supposed to work. To borrow a little for an illustrative example, when I launched OMT it was with working groups, then that evolved into a userspace drive since using working groups seemed to tedious, then that evolved again into a special project since it was felt to be too big for the userspace or working group concepts but not big enough for a task force. Since then, three other special projects have come about since the framework for the usage of the term has been established. I suspect a similar approach here will occur, where people will refrain from using the SST until its niche is properly discerned through some manner of trial and error.
In response to your suggestions above Kirill, I think moving forward with all of those ideas would be a good idea, and we could probably cover the SST in the bugle with an interview or two from project members involved in setting it up to help drum up interest in the matter. Eventually, I would like to see the bugle evolve to the point where a once a month story concerning these somewhat lesser known areas/groups/teams that we operate are covered to help better advertise their existence to the members. TomStar81 (Talk) 21:38, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Status update
Items 1 and 2 from the list above have now been implemented; I'd appreciate it if people could take a look at the changes I've made and make sure that everything is as expected. Kirill [talk] [prof] 02:44, 31 July 2010 (UTC)
- I just re-read MILMOS (except for the cat stuff) ... looking good. - Dank (push to talk) 03:18, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
Possible addition to MILMOS
I have an idea for an addition to the Notability guideline. It relates to the notability of military units and formations. I've started it in my Sandbox, if you want to take a look. It will probably need tightening and is really just a rough draft. AustralianRupert (talk) 11:12, 1 August 2010 (UTC)
- Perhaps it should set out a provision for smaller special operations units? --Patar knight - chat/contributions 04:18, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Hi Patar knight, thanks for the feedback. Could you please provide an example of the type of unit you are refering to? I'm struggling to think of a way to include them at the moment and if you have an example it might help me frame the wording. Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 12:07, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- AR, would you mind if we took this to the STT talk page? Your proposed guideline is just the kind of thing that the STT intended for. EyeSerenetalk 12:47, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- That would neatly resolve the question of what we could start brainstorming. :-) Kirill [talk] [prof] 01:46, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- My thought too :) EyeSerenetalk 09:14, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
Ok, I've added a section at the STT talk page. Apologies if I've formatted it badly. Please feel free to tweak if necessary. Please add any further comments over on that page. Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 10:42, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- That looks great. Thanks so much for doing this :) EyeSerenetalk 10:55, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- After discussion and tweaking on the STT and main project talk pages, I have now moved the unit and formation essay to the Wikipedia:WikiProject Military history/Notability guide. AustralianRupert (talk) 22:59, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
Academy work area
Now that we've moved the list of needed Academy articles into the STT, I'm wondering if we should simplify the associated talk page structure as well. At the moment, we have three relevant pages:
- Main Academy page (contains finished articles)
- Main Academy talk page (contains all related discussion)
- Main STT page (contains missing articles)
This is probably not ideal, since (a) the "work area" for the Academy now doesn't have a dedicated talk page and (b) Academy matters are now split among both the STT and the Academy page itself.
What I'd like to do, in some form, is to pull the discussion from the Academy page into the STT as well, and leave the main page as simply the list of finished courses (similar to how our showcase is set up). At the same time, mixing Academy discussions in with the brainstorming sessions on the main STT talk page will probably be a bit confusing. In light of that, I'd like to suggest that we create a "training division" within the STT and collect all Academy activities there. This would leave us with:
- Main Academy page (contains finished articles)
- Main Academy talk page → redirected to STT training division talk page
- STT training division page (contains missing articles, other planning materials)
- STT training division talk page (contains all Academy-related discussion)
This would effectively mean that the STT training division would be the only page that people working on the Academy would need to really keep track of; the Academy page itself would just be a reader-facing one.
Thoughts? Kirill [talk] [prof] 13:22, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Makes sense to me. Although it would have been nice to keep as much as possible central, I think mixing the Academy discussion with WT:MHSTT would be confusing. In creating a training division we wouldn't actually be creating extra talk pages so the overhead is basically the same. The only alternative I can think of is to segregate the STT talk page somehow. EyeSerenetalk 14:46, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Okay, I've made the changes; we now have a training division that we can use to coordinate Academy work. At some point, we should probably go through and come up with a plan for cleaning up and consolidating the current set of articles; we've been meaning to do that for a while, and it would be nice to make some progress on that in the near future. Kirill [talk] [prof] 16:15, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
A modest proposal for The Bugle
I'm currently writing an article on article creation for The Bugle (draft here) and in doing so it occurred to me that one way to raise the profile of the existing academy articles would be to highlight one or two of them in each edition of The Bugle. This could involve including a short (one para or so) summary of the article and a link to the remainder. Nick-D (talk) 06:12, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- That's a pretty good idea, particularly now that we have the space to add a paragraph on something like this! —Ed (talk • majestic titan) 06:56, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hi, Nick. Looks like a good topic for the Bugle, in my opinion. I love the image, of course, and can sympathise with the sappers, having put across a few bridges in my time. High Range in summer with full body armour is no treat, but not quite the same as the Miribad or Chora valleys as one might appreciate! AustralianRupert (talk) 08:08, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- One suggestion I have, Nick, is that perhaps you could find a way to mention the Requested article lists that most of the task forces maintain. The ANZSP, for instance, one is massive—mainly biographies—but it is a place that editors who are wanting to kill some redlinks might go for inspiration. AustralianRupert (talk) 08:17, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- That's a good idea - thanks for that. Nick-D (talk) 08:22, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- One suggestion I have, Nick, is that perhaps you could find a way to mention the Requested article lists that most of the task forces maintain. The ANZSP, for instance, one is massive—mainly biographies—but it is a place that editors who are wanting to kill some redlinks might go for inspiration. AustralianRupert (talk) 08:17, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
- Hi, Nick. Looks like a good topic for the Bugle, in my opinion. I love the image, of course, and can sympathise with the sappers, having put across a few bridges in my time. High Range in summer with full body armour is no treat, but not quite the same as the Miribad or Chora valleys as one might appreciate! AustralianRupert (talk) 08:08, 25 July 2010 (UTC)
Wikileaks strikes again
By now, if you haven't noticed it, the wikileaks group just unleashed nearly 100,000 papers on or relating to the afgan war to the public. At the moment (IE, as I am tying this) the article seems to be stable, but I expect that will change over the next 48 hours. Of particular note at the moment is that the issue of the article name is still up in the air, so I would ask that everyone keep an eye on this and if necessary move-lock the article at a particular name until we have the need weeklong consensus for retention of the article at its current name or a consensus to move it to a new name.
On an unrelated note, it appear that the next GRE test date will be August 17, so I am shooting to have my test on that day, and then I should be back with full force (I hope). I dislike dumping on other people what I feel I should be my part of our workload, but hopefully it will end soon. TomStar81 (Talk) 10:56, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- No problems so far, and the discussion over the name of the article isn't going anywhere. Nick-D (talk) 11:08, 26 July 2010 (UTC)
- I still haven't seen any problems arising from this on the articles I've got watchlisted. The nature of the material posted on the Wikileaks website also doesn't really lend itself to OR, which is a bit of a relief. From my poking about it's largely low-level operational reports and requires a lot of effort to analyse in any way - anyone with the time and motivation to do so would likely have other (and better) avenues for publishing their analysis. It also doesn't seem to be having all that big a news impact (as a lot of commentators have pointed out, the leaks showing that the NATO-led forces are bogged down don't add much to what's been being reported for the last year or so...). Nick-D (talk) 11:03, 29 July 2010 (UTC)
July newsletter
With August now upon us (how fast the time flies!) We need to see about getting the July Bugle out there for the readers. The above links still need work, and I am open to ideas on what our editorials for the month should be on. I would also suggest that we consider interviewing Parsecboy since he has received only the second A-class medal with swords to be issued. A few words of encouragement for students may also be worth including being as how over the next eight weeks most students will be marching back to the classrooms for the new school year. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:48, 2 August 2010 (UTC)
- Tom, do you mind if we redirect this to our new newsroom? EyeSerenetalk 09:22, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Not at all. I just post here since those who tend to do most of the writing, as well as those who will send out the letter, happen to reside largely on this page. TomStar81 (Talk) 10:33, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- That's true, but unless we make a conscious effort to use the STT it's going to die a death from neglect :) I think there are advantages to having a dedicated newsdesk that will hopefully emerge as we all get into the habit of using it. Probably a reminder here every month, like the one you've posted, is still a good idea though! EyeSerenetalk 10:48, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
- Hi, all. For some reason I completely forgot about the contest, for which I will promptly give myself an upper cut. Anyway, I'm trying to verify the entries this morning (Brisbane time), however, there are quite a lot and I would appreciate it if anyone could help out (maybe if someone could start from the bottom of the list and work up, as I am going from the top down?) AustralianRupert (talk) 22:36, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- Ok, the July contest has been verified and the results added to the newsletter. Apologies for the tardiness this month. AustralianRupert (talk) 11:32, 7 August 2010 (UTC)
- Hi, all. For some reason I completely forgot about the contest, for which I will promptly give myself an upper cut. Anyway, I'm trying to verify the entries this morning (Brisbane time), however, there are quite a lot and I would appreciate it if anyone could help out (maybe if someone could start from the bottom of the list and work up, as I am going from the top down?) AustralianRupert (talk) 22:36, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- That's true, but unless we make a conscious effort to use the STT it's going to die a death from neglect :) I think there are advantages to having a dedicated newsdesk that will hopefully emerge as we all get into the habit of using it. Probably a reminder here every month, like the one you've posted, is still a good idea though! EyeSerenetalk 10:48, 3 August 2010 (UTC)
I'm sending this out on Sunday, so this is the last call for any news related matters and copyedits before the newsletter ships. If it ain't in the letter when I email Cbrown1023 it gets left behind. TomStar81 (Talk) 18:04, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Is August the edit war campaign season?
Am I right to think that there are (many) more than normal edit wars and heated content disputes going on within Wikipedia's military history articles at the moment? They seem to be springing up all over the place. Incidentally, I'm surprised that there isn't a Campaign season article given the central importance of the topic to warfare throughout human history. Nick-D (talk) 02:30, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- I suspect its that people are coming back from time off; stateside this is summer vacation season, but with school set to resume many of the technologically gifted people are return to the computer terminals and this in turn correlates to higher user input and therefore higher levels of editorial agreement. I should note that I have no idea how this effects things in the southern hemisphere, but I suspect a similar correlation. TomStar81 (Talk) 02:46, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- That makes sense; certainly, editing in general tends to follow certain trends related to the academic year. Kirill [talk] [prof] 03:14, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Interesting Information concerning FPs
By chance I happened to have located Wikipedia:Picture of the day/Unused, which displays a very limited number of images that are featured but have not appeared on the mainpage. I take a quite pride in having the only explicitly designated milhist photo to be disbarred from the mainpage on grounds of being "too gruesome", however there is another image, File:Butt, Baden-Powell, Taft, Bryce2.jpg, that is listed there simply because there is insufficient information on the meeting in question to use the image on the main page. We can fix this problem if we could get some information on the meeting up and running here on site, and I for one would like have such a high res photo up for all to enjoy. According to the photo information, one of the men depicted in the image is Robert Baden-Powell, 1st Baron Baden-Powell, a lieutenant general in the British Army, that would probably be a good place to start if anyone would like to take up the challenge. TomStar81 (Talk) 02:58, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- There are two military men in that photo (along with a sitting President of the United States) in front of the White House: Archibald Butt was a Major in the US Army and advisor to Presidents Roosevelt and Taft until his death during the sinking of RMS Titanic. This photo was taken only two months before. Also Baden-Powell is the founder of Boy Scouts. -MBK004 04:01, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
- The Baden-Powell picture seems to have more to do with scouting than Milhist. It's part of a series ([6], [7], [8], [9], [10]) possibly related to Taft becoming the first Chief Scout. Roger Davies talk 19:37, 6 August 2010 (UTC)
Interesting article in this week's signpost
The article on the decreasing number of RfAs at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2010-08-09/Admin stats is well worth a read. Any current or former coordinators of this project and most editors who've taken the lead with an FA would have no difficulties passing a RfA, and the more admins around the better... Nick-D (talk) 10:54, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- Agreed Ed (talk • majestic titan) 18:41, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
From the position of the milhist coordinators (past and present), the candidates for adminstratorship (excluding those already admins and those who have departed or edit irregularly for the past six months or more) would be:
- Cla68 (talk · contribs)
- Bedford (talk · contribs)
- Catalan (talk · contribs)
- Maralia (talk · contribs)
- Abraham, B.S. (talk · contribs)
- Ian Rose (talk · contribs)
- Jackyd101 (talk · contribs)
- Joe N (talk · contribs)
- Lordoliver (talk · contribs)
- Skinny87 (talk · contribs)
- AustralianRupert (talk · contribs)
- MisterBee1966 (talk · contribs)
- Ranger Steve (talk · contribs)
Of these candidates, some already have rollback/reviewer rights, some have had rfa's, and in one case, the user was an admin but was demoted such as it were after an incident. Members listed below Skinny 87 are members of the current admin coordinator tranche. Note that this list may not reflect the presence of an "I do not wish to be an admin" template or disclaimer, this is merely intended to be a snapshot of coordinators who we could approach to see if they held any interest in being admins. TomStar81 (Talk) 23:53, 10 August 2010 (UTC)
- Considering activity levels and divisiveness (climate change comes to mind, no offense to Cla, you know I love your Japanese capital ship knowledge!), I think Bryce, Ian, Aussie, MB1966, and Ranger are the only ones with a shot at passing. On the flip side, this very discussion could damage their chances, as people might view it as 'milhist cabaling' or something like that... Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 07:23, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, not only am I quite inactive at the moment, but I have no desire to get entered into the crapshoot/slander contest that is RfA. Skinny87 (talk) 09:53, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm flattered by the above comments, but having read several RFA's in the past I just don't really have the desire to get involved in that whole process. There seems to be an emphasis on "what more will you do / what other areas will you work in if you become an admin?" at these things, which strikes me as the wrong sort of attitude in a volunteer project. Ranger Steve (talk) 10:00, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Quite honestly, I don't blame either of you. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 14:28, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- I've been thinking about throwing my hat into the ring, but not until early next year. I've gone back to uni this year and I won't have the time until my course is over. At the moment I've found that my article output has become almost zero, which I find disappointing, although I am working on a couple of articles offline at the moment which should hopefully be finished in the next few weeks. AustralianRupert (talk) 22:06, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just stumbled on this RFA which I think helps to summarise the problems with the whole process a little. Some terrible reasons for oppose from some less than saintly editors, (including some admins with far worse examples of their own). What fun! Ranger Steve (talk) 11:40, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- On the other hand, Nev is on track to be confirmed as an admin, so the process is working there (it seems worth noting that as a former admin seeking reinstatement they'll inevitably attract some opposes from editors who they've ruled against). Several of the questions s/he's been asked seem to be broad policy matters which are beyond the scope of individual admins to act upon though. Nick-D (talk) 11:59, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just stumbled on this RFA which I think helps to summarise the problems with the whole process a little. Some terrible reasons for oppose from some less than saintly editors, (including some admins with far worse examples of their own). What fun! Ranger Steve (talk) 11:40, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- I've been thinking about throwing my hat into the ring, but not until early next year. I've gone back to uni this year and I won't have the time until my course is over. At the moment I've found that my article output has become almost zero, which I find disappointing, although I am working on a couple of articles offline at the moment which should hopefully be finished in the next few weeks. AustralianRupert (talk) 22:06, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Quite honestly, I don't blame either of you. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 14:28, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm flattered by the above comments, but having read several RFA's in the past I just don't really have the desire to get involved in that whole process. There seems to be an emphasis on "what more will you do / what other areas will you work in if you become an admin?" at these things, which strikes me as the wrong sort of attitude in a volunteer project. Ranger Steve (talk) 10:00, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
- Yeah, not only am I quite inactive at the moment, but I have no desire to get entered into the crapshoot/slander contest that is RfA. Skinny87 (talk) 09:53, 11 August 2010 (UTC)
Unassessed articles and those without task forces
Hi all, the number of articles sitting in the unassessed and without task force category has risen dramatically the past few days. I'm trying to do a few (and I think some other editors are working on this too), but we seem to be losing the battle. If anyone is looking for some gnomish work, I'd appreciate the help. Even if every co-ord just did 5 a day, we'd make a bit of a dent and it doesn't take much more than a minute or so to add the task forces, although it can take a little longer to assess, of course. Just a thought. Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 06:35, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
- I noticed a new editor to MILHIST was doing a massive assessment run a few days ago but forgot to leave a mention here. My apologies -MBK004 14:30, 13 August 2010 (UTC)
Proposal to rename the "Wikipedia:WikiProject" pseudo-namespace
A proposal has been made to rename the "Wikipedia:WikiProject" pseudo-namespace to an actual namespace (e.g. "WikiProject:"); comments there would be appreciated.
This is definitely something we need to keep an eye on; if it moves forward, it will require a significant number of changes to our infrastructure—primarily having to do with fixing links in templates—to get everything working properly again. Kirill [talk] [prof] 22:43, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- Thanks, I don't usually keep an eye on WP:VPR. If they can cleverly automate the changeover, it strikes me as an excellent idea from a usability standpoint. - Dank (push to talk) 22:51, 17 August 2010 (UTC)
- FYI, this proposal has now moved to Wikipedia:WikiProject namespace. It's currently enjoying a reasonable level of support, although most people seem to be glossing over the actual implementation issues for the moment; in any case, we still need to keep an eye on how it's progressing so that we don't get blindsided by the eventual result. Kirill [talk] [prof] 09:56, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Recruitment working group
As the founder (and only member) of the recruitment working group hasn't edited for almost two months, and the WG doesn't seem to have gone anywhere, I'm wondering if we should:
- (a) Fold it into the STT and leave discussion of recruitment on the list of topics for further discussion;
- (b) Try to make an active effort to revive it; or
- (c) Leave it gathering dust.
Thoughts? Kirill [talk] [prof] 00:57, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, none of our recruitment proposals over the years have really gone anywhere and it would be good to see a proper initiative. So, I suppose I'd prefer something involving both (a) and (b) ;) Roger Davies talk 04:15, 18 August 2010 (UTC)
- Any other thoughts? Kirill [talk] [prof] 04:36, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Sandy's FAC plea, reviews
I don't know whether anyone else noticed WT:MILHIST#FAC plea and wondered whether there was anything we could do to encourage our users to help review other articles at FAC in what will hopefully be a quid pro quo situation.
Looking at MHR, the peer reviews and ACRs need a few more reviewers, would diverting them to FAC be shooting ourselves in the foot. I know it is effectively a perennial proposal but is there any way of encouraging more reviews across the project? Perhaps and editorial in the newsletter? Woody (talk) 09:18, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- Giving out reviewers barnstars every three month or so is a very effective way of keeping interest on the boil. Although it's been talked about, we don't actually seem to have done this for over a year now. Publishing league tables of top reviewers at the same time also introduces an element of friendly competition. This is pretty basic stuff but it is effective. Roger Davies talk 10:23, 19 August 2010 (UTC)
- No reaction at all to this? Roger Davies talk 05:58, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm finally getting my arse in gear with regards to getting these out, at the moment I am attempting to determine when it was exactly that we last handed out the reviewer awards and where the logs of the ACR and PR fields are so I can begin the process of going through them. I expect the process to be time consuming but since I have nothing to do at the moment I hope to have this done in a week or two (taking into account the time it will take find everything and figure out who won such as it were). TomStar81 (Talk) 06:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- Good man!
- It seems the last lot went out in June 2009. MBK has a page logging candidates somewhere and someone (I forget who now, I'm afraid) did some of the preliminary work for Jul-Sep 2009 and Oct-Dec 2009. So for the last six months of last year, it may just mean collating results that are tucked away on user pages somewhere. Roger Davies talk 06:12, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well, that does simplify matters somewhat. Given the extraordinarily long period of time between the last awarding and this awarding I think everyone should receive a barnstar to help encourage more reviews, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. TomStar81 (Talk) 06:18, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- We could instead split it to one for Jul-Dec 2009 and another Jan-Jul 2010. Thereafter quarterly. How does that sound?
- I've got a word script that I can use to generate the ACR lists (though the Peer reviews need to be done manually). I knock this out over the weekend, I expect. Roger Davies talk 06:50, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well, that does simplify matters somewhat. Given the extraordinarily long period of time between the last awarding and this awarding I think everyone should receive a barnstar to help encourage more reviews, but I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. TomStar81 (Talk) 06:18, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm finally getting my arse in gear with regards to getting these out, at the moment I am attempting to determine when it was exactly that we last handed out the reviewer awards and where the logs of the ACR and PR fields are so I can begin the process of going through them. I expect the process to be time consuming but since I have nothing to do at the moment I hope to have this done in a week or two (taking into account the time it will take find everything and figure out who won such as it were). TomStar81 (Talk) 06:04, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
A few points for discussion
I think a few points need to be raised concerning of few aspects of the project at the moment, so I am opening a discussion suggestion on the matters so we can work through the issues. TomStar81 (Talk) 08:51, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
For starters, our newsletter format has caused some confusion for Cbrown1023. I promised I'd open a Q&A section so he could ask any questions or get clarification for what we wanted to avoid a repeat of the past delivery errors. The problem at the moment seems to be that he is/was unsure what the change we implemented meant for his end of the process, which result in his delivering the one liner format when we wanted the full format for all members. I take responsibility for this incident since in hindsight he should have been informed from the start of our plans to change to the new format so he would have been in a position to track the development and ask questions of us regarding the delivery status on his end. I'm moving to fix this oversight now by inviting him over to ask the questions needed for clarification so we can move the August newsletter out without delay.
Secondly, I think we need to revisit the matter OMT involved ACR closures; while I can appreciate that oversight does need to be preserved the fact remains that these are all to often left on the ACR's for closure section because those who close have already reviewed. Releasing closure oversight to OMT members at the coordinator level would help clear the backlog of ship articles we have. Alternatively, we could file OMT ACR's through WP:SHIPS and let their project handle the closures. I have not checked the specifics, but in theory this would allow access to outside editors to evaluate the article's ACR worthiness and would allow us to move the articles out of the section faster.
Lastly, the September coordinator elections will be starting soon. I wish to raise two points in regards to this. Point 1: As of the time stamp noted at the end of my signature we are reported to have over 1,100 members, but I can not convince myself that they are all active; I suspect that the membership list has yet to be updated to reflect a more current and more accurate number of members. Assuming the actual active members comprise about 1/2 of that list then we have 600 members (I'm being generous with that figure). We have 14 coordinators currently attached to the project, when counting the one lead and two emeritus coordinators our total jumps to 17. I believe that we no longer need such a large number of coordinators to over see the project; therefore I would propose that we reduce the regular coordinator tranche by 50% to leave us with 7 coordinators, one lead, and two emeritus for a total of 10 coordinators for the next tranche. I believe that such a layout would benefit the project in the long run. Point 2: I would propose that we open the signup period for our September election on the 7th, with the elections themselves beginning on the 14th and ending on the 28th. This would copy the one week signup and two week voting period we used in March, which seemed to work pretty well last time around. I plan on asking Cbrown to run a special notice to all members informing them of the opening of the signup period and the opening of the formal election period.
- Closing could be contentious in theory but so far hasn't been; we might as well allow OMT coords to close and see what happens. - Dank (push to talk) 11:56, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm not convinced that there's anything to be gained by reducing the coordinator staff so sharply. Coordinators are not all equally active; a larger tranche gives us considerably more ability to absorb vacations, irregular activity, and even the occasional totally inactive coordinator. Cutting the tranche in half would be fine if everyone elected were highly active, but that's not usually the case; and, with only nine regular coordinators, having a couple go on vacation is likely to substantially impact the available manpower pool. We're certainly not in a position where we need less manpower, incidentally—there are definitely things on our list (e.g. the Academy cleanup) that we're already having to push to the back burner.
- (Keep in mind, also, that counting Roger and myself as coordinators for the purposes of determining staffing levels is probably not the best idea; while we try to help out where we can, we both have significant and time-consuming responsibilities outside the project, and don't necessarily have the time to carry out the coordinators' "regular" tasks.)
- On a slightly broader point, I think having a larger tranche is more generally beneficial in that it reduces the tendency for all the spots to go to our multi-term regulars, allowing some fresh blood into the coordinator pool. This, in turn, reduces the risk that editor burn-out will severely impact us.
- As far as your other ideas, everything looks fine. I don't see any real problem with allowing "involved" OMT closures in practice, any more so than I would with having coordinators close articles belonging to task forces of which they're a part. As long as the coordinator didn't actually write the article himself, I don't think there's any significant conflict of interest; we're all working collaboratively here anyways, in some sense. Kirill [talk] [prof] 15:44, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- My thoughts are already well-known on the OMT closures, but the idea of having SHIPS host the reviews will not work either. The reason being that ships does not have an active review process except for our reviews which are cross-posted and the fact that I am the one who usually closes ships reviews when they are non-MILHIST. The same issue would remain. If the consensus is that "involved" OMT closures per Kirill's COI restrictions are permissible, then I will start to close them myself instead of listing them above on this page for closure. I agree completely with Kirill on the size of the coordinator corps and would strongly oppose any reduction in our numbers. The proposed timetable for the election is fine with me. On to the newsletter, I would like to have another option available to the delivery options. Along with the current options of non-delivery and now our front page, I would like to see the old one-liner still available for those who would prefer that. -MBK004 19:49, 21 August 2010 (UTC)
- Given that the next tranche of coordinators will be elected for a full year, it seems desirable to maintain at least the current number as it's safe to assume that at least 3 or 4 will withdraw or become inactive due to other commitments over the year based on the historical attrition rate. I've never seen any concerns about there being too many coordinators. Nick-D (talk) 01:22, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well ... I wouldn't say there have never been concerns; in the last election, we had roughly the same number of candidates as seats to fill. That makes quality control tough; for instance, I got in :) - Dank (push to talk) 02:52, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- I suggested a reduction based on a reoccurring point that since wikipedia's growth is slowing we no longer need as many people to man the ranking departments such as it were. As it is we do frequently make do with fewer coordinators than elected for a variety of different reasons, so I figured suggesting a drop in the number retained could be worth it if for no other reason than to help ensure quality control. We do have the option of co-opting, though I prefer not to use it unless its absolutely necessary. To be fair to Kirill's point, I do agree that the emeritus members should not be looked upon as part of the total number of coordinators; however, both have maintained an interest in the project and do help out when they can, so its not like we do without by including them. In either case, based on what I am seeing here, it would be advisable to retain the 14 + lead approach for the next tranche. TomStar81 (Talk) 03:32, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- Well, keep in mind that growth slowing down is not the same thing as an actual decline in size; even if it's a slower process, Wikipedia is very much still expanding. :-) Kirill [talk] [prof] 12:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
I agree that a reduction in coordinators is necessary. While I appreciate that some coordinators could become inactive, there is simply no need for 14 of us. I think it could create or is reinforcing an image of needless bureaucracy and a Milhist 'elite' at the top of the pyramid to the rest of Wikipedia and potential members. While I think the Academy and some of these other ideas are great ideas, we need the members to come and help as well. Adding coordinators isn't the answer; it's attracting new members and interesting old ones into/in these initiatives.
I'd rather that OMT articles are not closed by OMT members, but the status quo isn't working very well at the moment; articles are sitting for days or week in want of a 'neutral' coord. As a result, I'm tentatively supportive of this proposal, but if one or two non-OMT coords step up and volunteer to close the OMT noms, I think we should see if these issues go away. Ed [talk] [majestic titan] 06:10, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm unconvinced that there's a real problem with the impression the coordinator system creates. We've been worried about seeming too bureaucratic since the system was first created; but, in all that time, I can't recall any serious complaints on the subject.
- Your point about attracting non-coordinators is a good one, but doing so consistently may not be practical. There's a very limited portion of the overall membership that has any real interest in administrative matters, and an even smaller portion that is willing to devote any significant time to them. Kirill [talk] [prof] 12:38, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- To add my two cents worth, I am supportive of OMT co-ords closing OMT A class reviews so long as they haven't been involved in the review or writing process (except maybe a few minor tweaks). I think that the role of a co-ord is to be a "trusted member" and by having a blanket rule that they can't close, then aren't we really saying that this trust doesn't exist? From my interaction with all the co-ords on the project, I feel they can and should be trusted to do the right thing. If a situation about whether to pass or fail an ACR is uncertain, I'm sure a second opinion could be sought. Regarding the number of co-ords, I feel it would be best to maintain the status quo, particularly as we are looking at adopting a year long term. If at the end of that year it was found that there wasn't enough work for all those co-ords, then a reduction might be warranted, however, at the moment I think we are actually struggling to maintain certain parts of the project even with the numbers we currently have. For instance there are large numbers of articles with incomplete checklists, task forces not allocated, B class reviews that sit for a awhile, ACRs with minimal participation, GANs waiting for review, notability guidelines to write, etc. Yes, much of this is and can be done by editors who aren't co-ords, but from experience I believe that finding such editors is difficult. That's just my opinion and I'm happy to be challenged on any of it. Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 22:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
- A simple solution to the issue of OMT coords closing OMT ACRs would be to first post a proposal to allow this at WT:MILHIST and ask if there are any objections. If no-one objects (as I imagine would be the case) then there's no problem. Nick-D (talk) 10:50, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- To add my two cents worth, I am supportive of OMT co-ords closing OMT A class reviews so long as they haven't been involved in the review or writing process (except maybe a few minor tweaks). I think that the role of a co-ord is to be a "trusted member" and by having a blanket rule that they can't close, then aren't we really saying that this trust doesn't exist? From my interaction with all the co-ords on the project, I feel they can and should be trusted to do the right thing. If a situation about whether to pass or fail an ACR is uncertain, I'm sure a second opinion could be sought. Regarding the number of co-ords, I feel it would be best to maintain the status quo, particularly as we are looking at adopting a year long term. If at the end of that year it was found that there wasn't enough work for all those co-ords, then a reduction might be warranted, however, at the moment I think we are actually struggling to maintain certain parts of the project even with the numbers we currently have. For instance there are large numbers of articles with incomplete checklists, task forces not allocated, B class reviews that sit for a awhile, ACRs with minimal participation, GANs waiting for review, notability guidelines to write, etc. Yes, much of this is and can be done by editors who aren't co-ords, but from experience I believe that finding such editors is difficult. That's just my opinion and I'm happy to be challenged on any of it. Cheers. AustralianRupert (talk) 22:36, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Taking Tom's discussion points in order:
- I think the newsletter should probably still go out in two formats (one-line link and complete front page); this was largely why I broached the issue here. I'm uncomfortable with our unilaterally overriding the signup options that our members have chosen. Alternatively, if we do decide everyone gets the full front page we should think about deprecating the signup options lists as redundant (keeping just the opt-out/in list).
- My two-week break aside, I wasn't under the impression that articles lingering on for closure was a particular problem. Personally I tend to close ACRs when I notice that MBK has posted them above rather than monitor the review page myself; these are generally OMT articles. I rarely have time to review but as an uninvolved coord I'm happy to take on OMT closures as a regular function if that would alleviate some of the concerns.
- I think there are significant advantages to having a good-sized pool of coordinators and potentially signficant disadvantages if we don't. In addition to those mentioned by Kirill:
- Co-option to make up the numbers later bypasses the election process (speaking as a former co-opted coord myself, I didn't really regard myself as a legitimate coordinator until I'd stood for election);
- Granting those limited number of editors who put themselves forward to get involved in project admin the title of "coordinator" is a small but nonetheless meaningful token of the project's appreciation. I believe we'd be expecting too much of editors to hope they'll take up the slack if we find ourselves short of coords when they haven't volunteered for it and don't have the recognition of a fancy title to go with it :)
EyeSerenetalk 14:17, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just want to be clear that despite my vote above, I'm completely happy with EyeSerene's closes; I just think we need more people available to close OMT A-class reviews. OTOH, for all we know, the coming coord elections will fix this. - Dank (push to talk) 14:26, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- I hadn't read your post any other way :) I just wonder is this more a temporary effect of the northern hemisphere summer holiday season than a serious recurring issue, and if we could address whatever issue there is by perhaps being more methodical about checking MBK's updates to "ACRs for closure"? For the record, I have no problem with OMT members closing OMT A-Class reviews, but I can understand why there may be an appearance of COI in doing so. EyeSerenetalk 14:43, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
- Just want to be clear that despite my vote above, I'm completely happy with EyeSerene's closes; I just think we need more people available to close OMT A-class reviews. OTOH, for all we know, the coming coord elections will fix this. - Dank (push to talk) 14:26, 23 August 2010 (UTC)
Last night I sat and typed out a fairly longish comment for this, which was lost about 2 minutes from posting when my %$&*` laptop crashed. I gave up and went back to packing after that and as I'm still deep in that tonight, this version may be a bit shorter! Taking Tom's points in order:
- I agree that we should still offer the newsletter in two formats. An alternative would be to just offer the link (if this makes delivery easier) but I don't think we should force everyone to accept the full version. I suspect that the signup to the newsletter may decrease if we do.
- I have zero issues with OMT members closing ACRs (as long as they had zero input to that ACR). For what its worth, I would have closed all of the ACRs that MBK did last week (if it wasn't for my psychic boss), which gives me a smidgen of an idea. If it made the checks and processes easier, could we accept a non involved co-ordinator agreeing that ACRs can be closed, and then any other co-ordinator (including OMT but perhaps still excluding editors involved in the ACR) can actually close it. The closing process is essentially a formality and procedural action, so if a non involved editor agrees to the actual judgement of closure, that absolves the co-ord actually doing it of any responsibility for the decision.
- I don't see any major problems with the numbers of co-ordinators at the moment, and I'd humbly suggest that the time when we're entering a new period of 1 year terms is perhaps not the best time to experiment with fewer numbers. Additionally it seems a bit hard to reconcile the need for more co-ordinators to be able to deal with OMT ACRs with the idea of reducing the numbers. I'd also agree with EyeSerene that giving the position and responsibilities a title (instead of just encouraging regular milhist members to carry out more procedural work) is a better way to go - its essentially an equivalent to the ideas above for getting more people to participate in reviews (except this time the reward is five stars and a position title instead of barnstars).
On a similar vein, I'm afraid I'm going to be away for opening of co-ord signup on September 7th. After a fairly hectic summer my ever suffering better half and I have managed to snatch a week off for the obligatory British camping trip to Cornwall. I should be back by the 11th though. As things stand I think it would be wrong of me to stand again; my life has been insane over the last 6 months and I just haven't been able to spend as much time on wiki as I'd have liked (I think I've contributed 1 whole new article...). That said, if there is a shortage on the signup I'll be happy to fill the breach and try to help where I can (if a less active co-ordinator is considered better than no co-ordinator at all!).
I'm also away from tomorrow until 1st September for a rather different holiday, cycling from Eindhoven to Arnhem along Hells Highway, and then to Amsterdam. I've always wanted to do it and having found a willing victim (sorry, friend) to accompany me I'll be under canvas for the next few days. I had hoped to start at JOEs bridge on the Belgian border, but there's no easy way to get there so I'll miss a little of the route off. Still, as we'll be doing 150 miles plus (easily) I figured I could get some money for Help for Heroes so if anyone wants to sponsor me....
Right, gotta try and get more waterproofs into the panniers. Ranger Steve (talk) 21:17, 25 August 2010 (UTC)
Academy reorganization (Phase I)
I've started a discussion at the training division of the strategy think tank about cleaning up the organization of the Academy; input there would be appreciated. Kirill [talk] [prof] 13:16, 22 August 2010 (UTC)
Radical Idea
I've actually been thinking about this point for a while and I was considering the idea that we may evolve the project - radically - by mothballing all our task forces and developing new sub area's based on special projects and working group schemes. Special Project areas seem to be working at the same pace of task forces, with the narrower focus they tend to attract and retain more people. The working groups can be used for lesser interest work sections which would in theory help revitalize the whole project by creating more narrowly focused areas for participation that may help us gain and retain more editors. There are a few areas in which I think we will need to have task forces if for nothing else than as a preemptive maneuver to keep World War I and World War II task forces to keep them from going out as independent projects. Its a radical Idea, and I was actually going to propose this after the elections, but since you raised the point now I think it may be of interest, all the more so if the Wikipedia:Wikiproject format bites the dust. TomStar81 (Talk) 00:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- The main problem, as you correctly point out, will be preventing people from creating independent projects in place of the task forces. Quite honestly, I would suggest retaining the current structure simply for its value as a fleet in being; the inactive task forces don't really consume any maintenance resources on an ongoing basis.
- We should continue to encourage special projects and/or working groups where appropriate, of course; but I don't think we're ready to reorient the whole system around them. Kirill [talk] [prof] 01:51, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with Tom - the task forces are now all inactive and should be wound up. While it's true that they don't consume many resources, they have the potential to confuse potential new members of the project (who'll look at the moribund task force talk pages and conclude that the project is dead) and it's a waste of coordinators' time posting notifications to the task force pages. Nick-D (talk) 03:16, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- That begs the question of what you intend to do when someone starts creating entire new WikiProjects for our sub-topics instead. A dozen failed task forces, while something of a disappointment, pose no real danger to our collaborative environment; a single successful sub-project could be a grave risk if it decides to start pushing its own guidelines, template formats, and so forth (as has happened in the past). I don't think we can ignore the TFs' value in preventing such a course of events, even if they serve no other purpose.
- I wouldn't be opposed to further consolidation, mind you; but we need something in place to prevent a balkanization of our topic area into competing projects. Kirill [talk] [prof] 03:30, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- One idea that we might consider, of course, would be to eliminate the day-to-day maintenance overhead and the abandoned talk pages by turning task forces into organizational concepts rather than groups of editors. Under such a setup, a task force would retain its assessment, open task, and resource listing features, but would no longer have a distinct list of members or talk page; this would effectively allow the task force to be self-maintaining after the initial template/category setup. We could also roll the working groups into this concept as well; there aren't many of them, and we could eliminate the need for multiple group levels by simply creating the needed infrastructure for them. Kirill [talk] [prof] 04:06, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I would like to wind up the task forces in there entirety but that simply cannot be done since some of the task forces we have serve as a fleet in being to allow us uncontested control of military related matters. I sited World War I and World War II as examples since they are the most often suggested projects, and we need these two task forces in place to show that we have the capacity for handling the wars within our project so as to legitimately dissuade people from creating such a project on their own. That said, virtually all of the geography task forces and a number of the time period task forces are inactive, and would have been mothballed as independent projects a long time ago. Since the projects that allegedly run these task forces with us contribute little if anything to the mix it does seem to me that we could axe these fold them into the project proper to reduce overhead. At a minimum though, I would like the see the inactive task forces lose membership lists and have talk pages that redirect here so we can eliminate the need for the coordinators to cover TFs that are largely inactive. I know that many TFs that MBK leaves messages for concern ACR and PR and FAC related material have talk pages composed of nothing but said messages, and reducing the need for leaving so many messages on inactive TF talk pages would allow us to recycle time into more pressing matters like reviews. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I was wondering whether people are prompted to review an article by seeing a review alert for it on a TF talk page: it would be very interesting to find that out before we conclude they serve no purpose. Afterall, the amount of time it takes to post review notifications is trivial in the grand scheme of things.
- That said, I've always seen TFs as a much underused resource. One of the main reasons behind allocating coords to TFs was to try to kick-start the TFs into activity so the basis that, with a bit of leadership and perhaps some TF specific mini-projects, inactive editors would become active. (In fact, looking at the history of TFs, it only takes one energetic individual for the TF to start developing its own momentum.) This has not really happened and the bulk of coord activity has instead gone into one or two large drives.
- Wholesale mothballing of the TFs would, as Kirill rightly says, be a terrible mistake. Roger Davies talk 05:56, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I would like to wind up the task forces in there entirety but that simply cannot be done since some of the task forces we have serve as a fleet in being to allow us uncontested control of military related matters. I sited World War I and World War II as examples since they are the most often suggested projects, and we need these two task forces in place to show that we have the capacity for handling the wars within our project so as to legitimately dissuade people from creating such a project on their own. That said, virtually all of the geography task forces and a number of the time period task forces are inactive, and would have been mothballed as independent projects a long time ago. Since the projects that allegedly run these task forces with us contribute little if anything to the mix it does seem to me that we could axe these fold them into the project proper to reduce overhead. At a minimum though, I would like the see the inactive task forces lose membership lists and have talk pages that redirect here so we can eliminate the need for the coordinators to cover TFs that are largely inactive. I know that many TFs that MBK leaves messages for concern ACR and PR and FAC related material have talk pages composed of nothing but said messages, and reducing the need for leaving so many messages on inactive TF talk pages would allow us to recycle time into more pressing matters like reviews. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:27, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
I would suggest we move this discussion to WT:MHSTT and pull in the related discussion from the main talk page to avoid having multiple related conversations. We're going to need to run any idea we come up with past the membership anyways, so we might as well open up the brainstorming to everyone from the start. Kirill [talk] [prof] 17:48, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Banner integration for special projects
I've recently completed integrating support for OMT tagging into the project banner, and the implementation appears to be working correctly. I'm now wondering whether it might be a good idea to turn on similar tagging functionality for the other special projects? (OMT has a fairly complex feature set due to its use of five phases; the other projects could be done as straight listings for now.)
Thoughts? Kirill [talk] [prof] 03:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I'm all for that. In fact I would even go so far as to say it should be a mandatory thing for new special projects, but I would wait for input on the latter point before calling it project policy such as it were. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:14, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Category-based member tracking
Since we're proposing radical ideas and such: how about getting rid of the hand-maintained membership list and just having a member category instead? I'm fairly certain nobody uses it anyways, so there's little value in having to maintain it. Kirill [talk] [prof] 04:32, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- Question: Would such a category be able to determine who is active and who isn't? One of my gripes is that when looking at the current membership list it isn't always immediately obvious who among the active contributors is still with us, but I am not sure if that would carry over for a category based concept. TomStar81 (Talk) 05:13, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- Not directly, but given that we haven't really maintained the active/inactive distinction, I don't think it would be much of a loss. (Plus, this would segue neatly into getting rid of TF membership lists, per our discussion above.) Kirill [talk] [prof] 11:38, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Upcoming coordinator elections
Since I saw no objections tot he suggested time table I'm going to adopt it for the September coordinator elections. We will keep the coordinator numbers as they are now (14 and lead) on grounds that the year long term is new and that the extra coords can help fill in for those on vacation or otherwise unavailable. Two points we need to look at now:
- Do we have anything going up for ratification in the September coordinator vote?
- Do we know anyone that would make a coordinator for the project?
In the case of the former, if we do, then we can add the needed section and let the matter solve itself, in the case of the latter I would like us to extend a hand (in a recrument sense - hint, hint) to those whom we think would do well as coords and see if we can not coax them into running. TomStar81 (Talk) 06:09, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think we need any referenda this time around, since we're not making any real changes to the coordinator system. Other than that, everything looks fine; and if anyone knows someone who'd make a good coordinator, please do encourage them to run. Kirill [talk] [prof] 17:53, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Headings on main page
Based on some comments at the NYC WikiConference today, I've tried my hand at making the section headings on the main project page a bit friendlier for visitors. Comments would be welcome!
(I'm going to be posting some other ideas I've gathered at the conference this evening, incidentally.) Kirill [talk] [prof] 19:03, 28 August 2010 (UTC)
Ideas from WikiConference NYC 2010
I've jotted down some ideas from WikiConference NYC 2010 at the strategy think tank; feedback there would be very appreciated. Kirill [talk] [prof] 04:18, 29 August 2010 (UTC)
ACR and PR review tallies
As discussed above, here are the ACR and PR tallies for the periods Jul-Dec 2090 and Jan-Jun 2010. I'm on holiday so I'm not around to dish out any awards, but I suggest award periods to correspond with the tally periods.
The periods are based on the closing date of ACRs and the archiving dates of PR. It quite easy now to work out tallies quarterly, so the next period would be Jul-Sep 2010 (awarded in time to be fanfared in the appropriate Bugle).
Obviously, you'll have to work out which awards to give whom, and someone will have to physically award them. The awards data will have to go into the next Bugle. The purpose after all is to encourage past reviewers to review again and to incentivise those that have never done it.
Incidentally, a point lost in the data. MBK and Eurocopter have done a great deal of the ACR clerking and closing: they deserve recognition for this. While we're on the subject, the B-class reviews are done by a surprisingly small number of people. They probably also deserve recognition is someone can trawl through the page history to pick uyp the regulars. Roger Davies talk 09:34, 29 August 2010 (UTC)