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==March 2012==
==March 2012==
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Boletus frostii/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Voluntary Human Extinction Movement/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Voluntary Human Extinction Movement/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ferugliotherium/archive1}}
{{Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Ferugliotherium/archive1}}

Revision as of 20:14, 10 March 2012

March 2012

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 20:14, 10 March 2012 [1].

Boletus frostii

Nominator(s): Sasata (talk) 18:00, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Boletus frostii is a handsome edible bolete mushroom found in North and Central America. I've done all I can with respect to research/sourcing and tweaking prose & MoS, and think it's ready for this FAC. Thanks for reading. Sasata (talk) 18:00, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sources look good to me, nitpicks:

  • Generally, designations such as Ltd. needn't be included for publishers.
  • Ref 19: Translation seems a bit off (I'm a native Dutch speaker with considerable knowledge of German). In this context, "distinct" would be a better translation for auffallender than "striking". Also, would "Bolete" for "Röhrling" make more sense than Boletus? What exactly is Luridi?

Support on criteria 1a/c/d/e and 2/a/b/. Sasata, your mushroom articles always make for a delightful read. I simply could not find anything worthwile to comment on, so I took the liberty of fixing any nitpicks I had myself (please check if I haven't altered any meanings). One suggestion: It might be useful to mention that it's a North American species in the opening sentence; at least, that's what I gathered from the article. I'm no expert on the subject, so I don't feel comfortable judging comprehensiveness, although I performed spotchecks for all uses of refs 1, 2, 3, 5, 6, 9, and 10 -- I found no problems whatsoever. (For 5 and 6, I suggest linking to the pages where the quoted text appears instead.) Auree ★★ 03:43, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks again for your review and support. I've directed the links to the specific page #'s as you suggested, and reorganized the lead so the distribution info is closer to the beginning. Sasata (talk) 05:36, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I find it increasing difficult to find anything to nitpick in your tasty mushrooms. Personally, I would have assumed the meaning of rootlet was obvious, but it's clearly not wrong to link it, so... nothing more to say Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Just a single comment from me regarding the wording, on what otherwise seems to be a spotless article. For the lede:

"amber drop" - wouldn't "amber-coloured" be more correct here? It would also remove the need to inter link to 'amber (color)'. MasterOfHisOwnDomain (talk) 11:25, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Images

  • File:Adnate_gills_icon2.png cites itself as a source
  • File:Karl_Johanssvamp,_Iduns_kokbok.png needs a US PD tag

Looks great. A few tiny quibbles-

  • "Another characteristic of young, moist fruit bodies are the amber-colored drops exuded on the pore surface." Another characteristic ... are...- singular/plural?
  • You don't mention the "adverse effects" experienced by some outside of the lead- is this a hangover from something unsourced, or is there something that needs to be added to the edibility section?
  • "shaped somewhat like a swollen bottle; they are 30–53 long by 7.5–14 µm wide.[4]" Not certain about this- how about splitting it into two sentences?
  • "A 1980 publication tentatively suggested that the fungus was also present in Italy,[27] but the author later determined that the putative B. frostii was actually Boletus siculus.[28]" Perhaps Boletis siculus would be a useful addition to "similar species"?

Very well written overall. I made a couple of tiny changes. I'm sure I'll be supporting soon. J Milburn (talk) 21:32, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've made your suggested changes here. I grouped mention of B. siculus together with B. permagnificus, as they are both similar Euro species (some have suggested they are synonymous, but I don't wan't to get into that in this article). Regarding adverse reactions from consumption, after checking through my sources, it seems that Kuo is the only one who mentions this specifically for this species (and he's a little vague about it anyway), so I added a little quote from his book in the edibility section and modified the mention in the lead to better reflect the consensus from sources. Thanks for reviewing. Sasata (talk) 15:44, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support, I am happy that this is ready for featured status. J Milburn (talk) 15:49, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support provided the image issue noted above is resolved. I couldn't find any issues, except that I disagree with Auree: "striking" is a better translation for "auffallend". Ucucha (talk) 17:01, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Ucucha. I changed the word to the original "striking"--not disparaging your German skills, Auree, but that was the word used in the translation provided by the Web of Knowledge. Sasata (talk) 14:28, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No worries, I definitely trust Ucucha over myself on this one, haha Auree ★★ 01:19, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Quick comment – At the start of Ecology, habitat, and distribution, is "mycorrizhal" meant to be "mycorrhizal"? Don't want to change it myself since I'm not 100% sure that's a glitch, but that isn't how I remember the term from my schooling. Giants2008 (Talk) 23:26, 9 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 20:03, 10 March 2012 [2].

Voluntary Human Extinction Movement

Nominator(s): Mark Arsten & Mitch Ames

At the risk of causing the extinction of the human race and—even worse—the end of Wikipedia, I am co-nominating this article for featured status with Mitch Ames. The content disputes that dominated the talk page (and spilled over to ANI) for a while have finally been resolved, and the article has passed GA, been copyedited, and been peer reviewed. I think we've found virtually all of the coverage they have received in quality sources, and I believe that the article is now as neutral as is possible. I hope you agree that it meets the FA criteria. Mark Arsten (talk) 01:27, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support: My comments were addressed at the PR. Good luck! ResMar 05:14, 5 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments'

  • "Knight, however, believes that even if humans become more environmentally friendly, they could still return to environmentally destructive lifestyles and thus should be eliminated." – Perhaps I am missing a point in American usage, but I'm pretty sure that the 'thus' should be 'hence' or 'therefore', as the sentence otherwise would mean that humans should be eliminated in this way – ie. a dead end/garden path.
  • There are quite a few consecutive sentences in the 'Ideology' section which all start with 'He'. I'm not quite sure what to do about it, but it certainly makes the prose somewhat repetitive.
  • "Philosophers Steven Best and Douglas Kellner view VHEMT's stance as extreme, but they note that the movement formed in response to what the group sees as extreme anthropocentrism." – I have no idea what this sentence is trying to tell me.
  • These are all my quibbles; it's a pretty well written and sweet short article. Regards, Eisfbnore talk 11:03, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments This is an interesting and comprehensive article on a rather odd topic: nice work. I have some comments though:

  • The comma in the first sentence is unnecessary
  • "that calls for the human race to abstain from reproduction" - surely they call for 'humans' to not reproduce
  • " VHEMT argues that human extinction is preferable" - preferable to what?
  • "who became involved in the environmental movement in the 1970s and thereafter concluded that human extinction is the best solution to the problems facing the Earth's biosphere and humanity." - 'is' should be 'was', I think
  • "Knight publishes the group's newsletter and serves as a spokesman for the movement." - 'Knight publishes the group's newsletter and is one of its spokesmen' perhaps? (including both 'group' and 'movement' in the same sentence is confusing)
  • "Many commentators view its platform as unacceptably extreme, though some have applauded their perspective." - who's applauding who here? (read literally, this says that some commentators have applauded other commentators views)
  • "a VHEMT newsletter" - were there others at this time?
  • "In the newsletter, he asked readers not to procreate, to further human extinction." - second comma not needed
  • The lead says that Knight is 'a spokesman' but the article says that he's 'the spokesman'
  • What's an 'outreach' in this context?
  • The 'ideology' section makes it appear that this 'movement' is really a one-man band as there's almost no coverage of differing views within its members. Is this correct? (though there probably isn't much room for debate in an organisation with such a clear cut - and absolute - goal!)
  • 'The paper admits that Knight's support for reduction of the human population' 'admits' is rather non-neutral
  • The 'reception' section's focus on what various writers have said about the organisation seems to miss the point that the organisation appears to have had no impact at all on the general public, and is hugely unlikely to ever have any. Nick-D (talk) 03:11, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Alright, thanks for your comments--you have a good eye for prose issues. I think I made all of your suggested changes. As far as the "one-man band" goes: basically yes, there are a few other members, but Knight pretty much runs it all. The only thing I could find about differing views is the quote by Ormrod in the second paragraph of ideology. As far as your last point goes, I've added a couple statements from Knight where he says that the group hasn't gotten a great reception/is unlikely to succeed. I'm not too sure what else to put there, most sources tend to take it for granted that they're not having much of an impact. Mark Arsten (talk) 04:25, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • "Reception" and "impact" are not the same thing. For example, if they received a lot of publicity, so that a large percentage of the population knew about them, there might be a significant reception, eg everybody laughing at them and/or accusing them of being nutters, but virtually no impact because nobody agreed with them so everyone kept breeding. I'm not aware of specific references that indicate what sort of impact they are having - ie whether a significant (relative to the entire human population) number of people have chosen not to breed because of them. Mitch Ames (talk) 10:41, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I disagree with both of Nick-D's statements that the comma is unnecessary. Both sentences to which he refers have the same general form, with the comma in question indicated here in angle brackets:
"... calls for the human race to abstain from reproduction <comma> to cause ... extinction ..."
"... asked readers not to procreate <comma> to further human extinction."
In both cases, without the comma the sentence could easily be misread as implying (using the words of the first sentence here, but it applies to both) that reproduction causes extinction, ie with the last clause ("cause extinction") being bound to "reproduction" rather than being bound to "abstain from reproduction". With the comma, that incorrect binding doesn't happen. Mitch Ames (talk) 13:59, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Those changes look good to me, though a clearer statement on the movement's lack of success would be helpful, though as you note this is obviously self-evident. As another comment though, I'm going to take issue with the statement that "Voluntary extinction is seen as a laudable goal by The Economist". This is a fairly extraordinary claim, and is referenced only to a tongue in cheek speculative article from one of magazine's Christmas issues (which traditionally include several such lighthearted articles). I've been reading The Economist for well over a decade, and have never seen any references to such a position (in fact, The Economist generally advocates larger populations in developed countries and is relaxed about population issues in general). This and the following sentence should be dropped unless you can find a secondary source which states that this is the magazine's actual position. Nick-D (talk) 06:03, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Ok, I removed the bits about The Economist and the laudable goal and so on. (I was actually unaware of the Christmas issue thing, my mistake.) I'll ping Mitch and see if he can think up a good way to put it. Mark Arsten (talk) 06:10, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support All my comments (including those below) are now addressed. Nice work with this article. Nick-D (talk) 07:07, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - check formatting on FN 14, otherwise fine. Spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:39, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, only one. I'm getting a lot better. I changed the formatting a bit, hope it's better now. Mark Arsten (talk) 05:12, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Spot checks

  • Reference 1a: the article says that Knight lives in Portland, but not that he's a native of this city. References 1b and 1d check out. 1f: the references says the researcher counted "close to 400 people on Mr Knight’s mailing list", when you say that there were 'around 400'. I suggest changing this to something like 'just under 400' Please also note the above comment in relation to 1k.
  • I don't own the same edition of Weisman as what was consulted in this article so I can't verify the page numbers, but the statements attributed to this book in refs 5a, 5c and 17 check out to my 2008 Virgin Books edition (5a,c to p. 242 and 17 to p. 243). I'm not sure about 5b though; my edition says that he "posts charts" at "Earth Day fairs and environmental conferences", but not that he speaks at them (which implies that he's been invited to speak as part of the conference program), so please double-check your copy.
  • 6a and 6b check out
  • 8a and 8d are fine (and the Fox News story is more reasonable than its hysterical headline implies!)
  • 13a and 13b check out
  • Reference 18: The article says that VHEMT's aim is "in many ways laudable" when you've just used "laudable". He doesn't 'question' "whether compassion for the planet can drive humans to voluntary extinction", but actually describes such a notion as being absurd (particularly the voluntary component of this). All up, this article is a bit more negative towards the group's aims than the quotes make it out to be.
  • Reference 19 checks out
  • Reference 22 is also fine
  • There were no problems at all with close paraphrasing in any of the above spot checks. Nick-D (talk) 06:42, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Hey, thanks for the spotcheck. I rephrased the information sourced to 1a, 1f, 1k, 5b, and 18 in light of your comments. Mark Arsten (talk) 07:02, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I should also note (as a image review) that the article's only image is used under an appropriate fair use claim. It might actually be a free image though, as the organisation's website states that "Except where noted, works on this site are licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution 3.0 United States License" and no exception for this image is identified. Nick-D (talk) 00:44, 8 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Very well-written article about an interesting subject. --SupernovaExplosion Talk 10:57, 7 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Crisco 1492 comments
(Resolved comments by Crisco 1492 moved to talk page)


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 14:29, 10 March 2012 [3].

Ferugliotherium

Nominator(s): Ucucha (talk) 15:09, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

It's been a while since I last nominated an article at FAC, but I figured that we need some more fossil mammal teeth here, so I'm bringing you this article. Ferugliotherium lived in Argentina just before the big dinosaurs went extinct, and it's part of an unusual group of extinct mammals—the gondwanatheres—that I'm producing a series of articles on. I'm looking forward to seeing your reviews. Ucucha (talk) 15:09, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • I don't think we link countries now (Argentina)
  • "honors" twice in taxonomy para 1, perhaps change one to "commemorates" or similar
  • Incertae sedis is italicised, I think correctly, in its own article
  • "wear facet" — I can't see the point of red-linking this unless its meaning isn't what it appears to be, in which case there should be a gloss
  • "Dentary" I think is technical enough to need a link or gloss
  • Bonaparte (1986) is presumably in Spanish, which should be indicated
  • Bonaparte (1986) — what's the point of the url when there's no text at the end of it, just a confirmation that the book exists
  • Comments: I've started reading the article, haven't finished yet. Not the sexiest topic, but it seems very well written thus far though.
  • "an enigmatic tooth from the Paleogene of Santa Rosa, Peru" Could you link to the specific Santa Rosa? There are a few Santa Rosas in Peru.
  • "the lower-crowned Ferugliotherium was more likely an insectivore or omnivore, like similar multituberculates such as Mesodma," Would it be possible to avoid the "likely... like" here? Mark Arsten (talk) 20:10, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for the review. I've changed "likely" to "probably". The Santa Rosa meant here is not any of those listed on the dab page; it's in Atalaya Province. I linked it to Santa Rosa local fauna in the article on LACM 149371 and will try to make time to write an article about the (very interesting) fossil site. Ucucha (talk) 20:25, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Alright, sounds good. No offense intended about the un-sexiness of the topic, I'm sure it reflects more on my admittedly short attention span than anything else.
  • In the last paragraph of Taxonomy you start three sentences in a row with "In [year]...", maybe try to vary that a bit? Mark Arsten (talk) 20:55, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The identity of a few additional isolated premolars assigned to Ferugliotherium, some also resembling multituberculates, is also uncertain." Is there a good way to avoid the "also... also" here?
  • "Ferugliotherium is known from isolated teeth, the assignment of some of which is controversial." Is there a good way to avoid the "of some of which" here?
  • Your duplicate linking script is highlighting the first couple links of the Upper molariforms section and four of the first five links in the Range and ecology section.
    • All of those are linked previously in the taxonomy section, separated by a lot of dental anatomy. I think it's reasonable to link them again down in the lower part of the article, particularly because some of the things that are linked multiple times (e.g., the formations) are discussed in the most detail there, and it makes sense to enable readers to click through to the articles on the formations in that section. Ucucha (talk) 03:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The three incisor fragments are identified as Ferugliotherium because of their size and provenance" I can never remember the rule about when to use "because of" vs "due to" and "owing to", do you know if it is being used correctly here? Mark Arsten (talk) 02:58, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Alright, I've examined the article's prose as best I can and any real issues that I could find have been dealt with so I'm ready to Support on prose/presentation/MOS. (I know very little about the subject matter so I'm not qualified to judge in that respect.) Mark Arsten (talk) 15:47, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:35, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Support on prose and comprehensiveness - I reviewed this for GA and found little to complain about then. The article straddles the line between accessibility and exact meaning using technical words well as anything that can be described in plain English is. Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:41, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • link taxa, crown
  • The first sentence should state explicitly (rather than the second sentence by implication) that Ferugliotherium is a genus.
  • there's no easy indication about what kind of mammal this was. Perhaps if (a group of rodent-like mammals) was glossed after Multituberculata, it would help.
  • "were assigned to indeterminate multituberculates instead." is there a more accessible way to say this?
  • formations -> geological formations
  • I've done most of these, but I think for this animal it's actually good that we give little indication about the kind of mammal it was, because we have little idea about that. But I've glossed multituberculates. Ucucha (talk) 20:31, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • two very close occurrences of the phrase "after the discovery of" is repetitious
  • link Bonaparte in taxobox
  • "a now-extinct group of mammals" why specify now-extinct? were they not extinct when Bonaparte created the family?
  • link morphological, procumbent
  • "because they are less laterally compressed, more curved, and elliptical in cross section, and have a less acute angle at the tip." delete the second last "and"?
  • "With a width of at about 55 μm" extra word in there
  • "The crown is about rectangular" suggest "about" -> roughly
  • loph? anteroposteriorly?
  • "The middle row is oriented oblique with respect to ..." oblique->obliquely?
  • doi for Goin 2006 is broken; the article is viewable (by me at least) on Google Books here
  • This is just a stylistic preference, but reading through the article I get the impression that semicolons are overused.
  • have you tried contacting any of the paper's authors for use of an image? I noticed, for example, that a tooth image was used in this book; perhaps Kielan-Jaworowska and Bonaparte might release a similar low-res version that we could use?
    • Thanks for the comments, which are detailed and useful as always. I've fixed all the issues I didn't respond to separately. As for images, I've contacted Gurovich and received no response, but haven't tried either Kielan-Jaworowska or Bonaparte (though both are old enough that I doubt they would use email). Ucucha (talk) 20:31, 6 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 21:27, 4 March 2012 [4].

Washington quarter

Nominator(s): Wehwalt (talk) 15:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... I believe it meets the criteria.Wehwalt (talk) 15:43, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 23:39, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Why abbreviate in FN 57 but not 54?
  • FN 58: source italicizes Numismatic News but not NumisMaster
  • Be consistent in whether states are abbreviated or not
  • Given the abbreviation method you're using for states, "Ma." is ambiguous - could be Massachusetts or Maryland
  • "Whitman Publishing, LLC" or "Whitman Publishing LLC"?
  • How are you ordering the sources without authors?
Alphabetically by first significant word of the name of the newspaper/other publisher.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:06, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That's modified now.--Wehwalt (talk) 00:06, 15 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I will work through these this evening. Thank you for your review.--Wehwalt (talk) 23:51, 14 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
These things are done now.--Wehwalt (talk) 12:03, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Eisfbnore

  • "Hoover was concerned about the large numbers of designs used for commemorative coins in the 1920s, fearing that confusion would aid counterfeiters." — Perhaps change "fearing that" to "and feared that" to avoid noun+present participle construction?
  • "The Depression had caused there to be little demand for coin in commerce..." — Methinks 'tis a bit clumsy; how about: "The Depression had diminished demand for coin in commerce..."?
  • "The House of Representatives Committee on Coinage, Weights and Measures issued a memorandum stating that the design of the existing Standing Liberty quarter had been found to be unsatisfactory, and that the new piece would not only be struck for 1932, it would permanently replace the older design." — I am a bit confused; does the use of a comma after "1932" create a comma splice?
  • "No quarters were struck at any mint in 1933, due to the oversupply caused by the 1932 issue" — Shouldn't the "due to" be "owing to"? I think I've read somewhere that the former modifies conjugated forms of "to be" (indicating that it would be correct in this context), but since it's in the passive, I'm not sure.
  • "These minting operations were rapidly depleting the Treasury's stock of silver." — Is the use of the past progressive correct in the sentence? IMHO, it would be more idiomatic with "These minting operations rapidly depleted the Treasury's stock of silver."

Eisfbnore talk 12:27, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your comments. I've done all of these, though I modified matters in most cases, except the comma splice one. I think that one is OK as the final clause is not independent. Note the use of the word "only".--Wehwalt (talk) 12:44, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the fixes. I forgot one point though: "Beginning in 1976, and continuing over the following twenty years, the design was tweaked a number of times" — Isn't the use of tweak a touch informal for an encyclopaedia? My Thesaurus suggests adjust, modify, alter, change, adapt and refine as substitutes. Eisfbnore talk 16:28, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I picked "modify" and recast it in the active voice. Thank you again. Do not hesitate to let me know of other glitches.--Wehwalt (talk) 16:34, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support I'm not that into numismatics, but I found the article—surprisingly—very interesting, and have no hesitations with giving it my full support. Other than that, I think there might be a comma splice in the sentence "Other commemoratives had been sold at a premium, the Washington half dollar would, for one year, be the normal Mint issue." but I might be in the wrong this time as well. Eisfbnore talk 08:54, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the support. I try to write the coin articles both for the coin collecting reader and also for the general public at large. I think you are right; that should be a semicolon.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:37, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support: My detailed comments were given at the peer review, some months back. I've only a couple of minor issues to raise now:-

  • I notice the presence of one or two intrusive redundancies, e.g. "in fact", "actually", which could probably be zapped.
  • It would be useful to link the term "territories" as it occurs in the penultimate paragraph of the article, since this term will not be widely understood outside America. How about this: territories?

A worthy addition to a lengthy, high quality series. Brianboulton (talk) 21:53, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your praise. The recommended changes have been made.--Wehwalt (talk) 22:38, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from RexxS: Looking at the article for any accessibility issues, I am pleased that I can find no major problems. There are a few minor niggles, which may not necessarily be resolvable:

  • Alternate text for images is mostly well done, but I can imagine that a screen reader announcing "The progression of Washington quarter obverse designs" might cause a little frustration. This is probably the sort of case where a long description might work. Nevertheless, much of what is illustrated in the image is actually described in the Production sections, so I'm guessing that alt text along the lines of "The changes from 1932 to the present are described in the production section" might be helpful. You could always ask Graham87 whether he felt additional alt text would be an improvement to get a definitive answer.
  • The scale of that image File:Wikipedia Washington Quarters Obverse Designs.jpg at a width of 150px results in the embedded text being just a bit too small for my aging eyesight to cope with comfortably. I understand the problems that would be caused on very widescreen monitors by making it much bigger, but I think you could tweak it a little bit bigger to be kind to your elder audience.
  • Similarly, I have problems spotting decimal points when they are the first character in a number. I really find it difficult to distinguish between ".18" and "18" at the point size used in the infobox. Is there any reason why that couldn't be "0.18 troy ounces"? The difference between 0.18 and 18 is rather significant.
  • I suspect that there is a numismatological convention that dictates ".900 silver, .100 copper", rather than "0.900 silver, 0.100 copper". I suppose "90% silver, 10% copper" is just not what the sources use? I accept that these are proportions, so it doesn't matter as much as if they were absolute quantities.
  • Finally, I'm quite comfortable with most conversions between imperial and metric, but found the juxtaposition "(silver) 6.25 g containing .18 troy ounces of pure silver, (clad) 5.67 g, (silver clad) 5.75 g" just a little confusing and somewhat jarring. As this is in the infobox and hence providing a quick overview, would you be expecting the lay reader to make sense of that?

To put the above into perspective, I found the article as a whole to be well written and very informative, as well as accessible for most readers. --RexxS (talk) 03:02, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. The fact that the quarter has had different specifications during its 80 year existence does tend to strain the infobox, which is fairly inflexible. I'm open to suggestions, but what you see is the best solution I could think of. I will keep tweaking it though. Regarding the .900, I suppose that it could be switched to percentages, but that's fairly impractical in text, if you check the end of the article. I will work through these, and certainly enlarge the quarters image. I will report back when I'm done.--Wehwalt (talk) 10:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Support and thank you. I no longer have any issues with text size, and the new alt text makes that image much better for screen readers. I'd be happy to endorse this article as its accessibility reaches the standard I would expect for Wikipedia's best work. --RexxS (talk) 23:21, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Comprehensive, formidably referenced, well illustrated. A few trivial drafting points, which don't affect my support:

  • Lead
    • I wondered about the en dash in 1975–dated. I'd expect a plain hyphen, I think.
  • Inception
    • "it was anticipated he would interpose no objection to the plan" – a bit wordy. Would "he was not expected to object to the plan" do?
    • "Houdon" – is blue linked in successive paras
  • Competitions
    • "Secretary Mellon" is used twice in a row. You might drop the "Secretary" for the second one.
  • Production
    • "hoarded in rolls" – a technical term that could do with a word or two of explanation for the layman
    • Image with the five coins – it may just be my elderly eyes, but I found the legends too small to read comfortably at normal 100% view.
    • "The year 1964 saw a shortage of coins" – some people (not me) get very aerated about the idea that a year can see.
    • "a dime contained" – ignorant foreigners like me have heard of a dime but don't know offhand what it's worth in cents; it would be kind to add the figure in brackets.
    • "1776-1976" – en dash wanted, I think – Tim riley (talk) 07:42, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Dash it all. Thank you for your supports. I will deal with these today. It's interesting on the coin roll thing. I'm aware that the US is somewhat unusual in storing coins in roll form (I know in the UK it is weighed plastic bags) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wehwalt (talk • contribs) 10:30, 29 February 2012‎
I think I've changed or explained everything raised by Tim and by RexxS. Thank you for the reviews.--Wehwalt (talk) 15:41, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

  • Some sandwiching on my (small laptop) screen with the bust image and the coin below it
It's the best that I can do. The images point in opposite directions and it's not a long section.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:32, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • File:WLA_lacma_Houdon_George_Washington_bust.jpg should give licensing for bust as well as for image
  • File:Wikipedia_Washington_Quarters_Obverse_Designs.jpg needs licensing info for the coins as well as the image
  • File:Congressional_Gold_Medal_G_Washington.jpg: should clarify what the tag is licensing (the coin, the image, or both)
  • File:2012-ATB-Quarters-Unc-El-Yunque.jpg: should be fairly obvious, but best to provide a licensing tag for the image as well as the coin. Nikkimaria (talk) 00:56, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Those things are fixed except as noticed above, thank you. Four supports, image review done (assuming Nikki is satisfied with the Flanagan's Design images), source review done.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:54, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 15:46, 4 March 2012 [5].

Pain fitzJohn

Nominator(s): Ealdgyth - Talk 18:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because... after patient research, as well as lots of copyediting, I think i've got a pretty complete view of this rather elusive Henry I's "new men". Pain was a relatively lowly nobleman who rose in Henry's service to control a very strategic position in the Welsh Marches, as well as one of England's most famous castles - Ludlow Castle. He and his brother were powerful magnates, but Pain died before his brother and did not found a long lived family as his brother did. The article is a complete new start, as I started it back in 2011, I've done all of the research as well as most of the writing. It's been kindly reviewed at GA, as well as having a nice peer review and other reviews by a number of editors - including Fifeloo, Nikkimaria, Brianbolton, and Ruhrfisch. It also has benefited from comments from Nev1 about Ludlow as well as a final polish by Malleus. Note - I'm competing in the Wikicup, but this article will NOT count for points, as most of the work/research/etc was done last year. I present to you - Pain fitzJohn, an nobleman who mixed with kings and earls in his lifetime but has largely fallen from historical sight since then. Ealdgyth - Talk 18:14, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sources review

  • Spotchecks carried out on ODNB sources, no issues
  • Multiple citations should be in ascending sequence, e.g. [[16][24] not [24][16]

Otherwise all sources look good. Brianboulton (talk) 19:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support: I copyedited the article and made a few review suggestions, duly implemented. An excellent peek ito our vanished past when knights were bold...etc etc. Brianboulton (talk) 19:06, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • If I could find other opinions on Pain's career or character, I'd have included them also. Wrightman's the only one who editorialized on him - originally I had it in with other paragraphs, but it doesn't really fit well anywhere. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:22, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • If you think his opinion is important, that's fine, I just thought it stuck out, possibly as undue weight given that Wrightman's book is focused on the Lacy side. - hahnchen 23:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from Noleander

  • Explain/define in lead: "..one of King Henry I of England's "new men".". Reader should not have to click on link to determine the significance of the "new men" term. Either define/explain right there, or later in lead.
  • Ambiguous: "Pain was probably the eldest son of John fitzRichard..." - Ambiguous: need to specify what is uncertain: the "eldest" or that his father was JFR?
  • Grave site: "He was buried in Gloucester Abbey .." - Is he still there? Can tourists visit the grave? Any photo available?
  • Clarify: " ... as they are frequently found witnessing the same charters and other royal documents." - I presume "witness" means that they signed a document. Probably should explain that for lay readers.
  • Define: "...and that the king "stationed them above earls and famous castellans" - I'm pretty well read but I have no clue what a castellan is. Someone who owns a castle? Someone from Castile?
  • Verbose: " is not securely confirmed in " - The "securely" seems redundant. Remove? Or, if need to keep it, change to a more conventional adverb like positively or absolutely etc.
  • Verbose: "... she was described as being a widow." - Could be simpler: " ... she was a widow" or "... she was described as a widow".
  • Define: "... Henry gave Pain the lordships ..." - Define "lordship" for lay readers. Or, at least, link to WP article.
  • Awkward wording: "... the date of their granting to Pain is unknown." - How would E. B. White phrase that?
  • Define/explaiin: "...his payment for danegeld in 1130 ..." - Shouldn't have to click on "danegeld" to comprehend the meaning of the sentence.
  • Punctuation: "On 10 July 1137 Pain was killed by a javelin blow to the head, during an ambush by the Welsh ..." - Move comma from after "head" to after "1137".
  • All-in-all a fine article. I'm having a hard time finding any shortcomings.

End Noleander comments. --Noleander (talk) 21:17, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • I've dealt with all of the above except for the "securely" and the comma where I was threatened with death... securely here is the correct "technical" term - using another would be less correct to the source. And I'm not touching the comma .. not after my two main copyeditors threatened me! Thank you for the review - sorry it took a few days to get back, I"m still fighting some cold/flu/something that's driving me nuts. Ealdgyth - Talk 16:56, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I changed my "Comments" to "Support". Regarding the comma: my real point (which may have gotten lost in the humor :-) was that introductory time phrases should normally be followed by a comma, as in "On July 5th, the army advanced ..." because speakers usually pause briefly at that point. Not a big deal. --Noleander (talk) 18:16, 27 February 2012 (UTC)::::[reply]
I think that's something Americans tend to do rather than the wider English-speaking world. Malleus Fatuorum 18:41, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

Support with nitpicks

  • "is not securely confirmed" - would suggest "clearly confirmed" or similar
  • Do we know if/how Hugh and Walter de Lacy are related (since Walter has no article)?
  • "Her kinsman Gilbert de Lacy was the son of Roger de Lacy, who had been banished from England in 1095 and his English estates confiscated; he had though retained his properties in Normandy; Roger's English possessions were given to his brother Hugh de Lacy, from whom Sybil had inherited them" - would suggest making "Roger's English possessions..." a new sentence
  • Be consistent in whether you use en- or emdashes for sentence breaks
  • Compare FNs 19 and 31. Nikkimaria (talk) 16:49, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I really prefer "securely" - this is the normal terminology for the status in historical circles. The de Lacy family article - sucks. And the state of research into the de Lacy's is fluid. I'd rather not get into a long digression on more de Lacy's - Sibyl's bad enough. Malleus got the Roger's English possessions bit and the dashes - thank you Malleus!!! Fixed the spelling issue in the footnotes. Ealdgyth - Talk 13:57, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 14:11, 4 March 2012 [6].

Alexis Bachelot

Nominator(s): Mark Arsten (talk) & Livit⇑Eh?/What? 00:43, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Alexis Bachelot led the first permanent Catholic mission to Hawaii, but encountered religious persecution and was even suspected of being a French spy. While he saw limited success, his treatment by the Hawaiian government led to an international diplomatic incident with lasting consequences. The article is currently at GA status and has been peer reviewed and copyedited since then. I'm fairly confident that it meets the Featured article criteria. Mark Arsten (talk) 00:43, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Eisfbnore

  • Check alphabetisation of bibliography
  • There are a couple of 'due to's in the article which should be 'owing to' or 'because of'. I'm too woozy and tired to give a full explanation of what ought to be used when (though I think that I've erewhile explained it in one of Mark's FACs), but this website gives a considerably thorough elucidation. --Eisfbnore talk 01:40, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(Obvious) Support as co-nominator. I'm the GoCE member that Mark roped into editing this article, and it turned out being one of the most pleasurable CE experiences I've had. I'm open to any and all suggestions on how to clean up the prose further. Livit⇑Eh?/What? 18:18, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments from Redtigerxyz
  • Disclosure: I was the GA reviewer.
  • Should it be "Alexis John Augustine Bachelot (born John Augustine Bachelot ..." ???
  • Kaʻahumanu, the Kuhina Nui of Hawaii: Kuhina Nui must be italicized IMO. Also a short English summary will better explain the jargon
  • Comment I don't think Kuhina Nui should be italicized. We don't italicize other honorifics such as "King," "Queen," "Emperor," or "Grand Pooh-Bah." I could see an argument for italicizing it under the "foreign words not in common English usage" clause of MOS:ITALIC but I don't care for it here because the title forms part of a person's name. Livit⇑Eh?/What? 01:24, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "By Bacehlot's arrival however," -> Should it start with however ???
  • "He was freed only after...." Three consecutive sentences start with He. repetitive
  • "a French adviser to Hawaiian king .." -> "a French adviser to the Hawaiian king"--Redtigerxyz Talk 18:10, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

--Redtigerxyz Talk 18:10, 29 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • "Because Kamehameha III was young at the time of his his ascension, Kaʻahumanu (a wife of their father) ruled as Kuhina Nui." stepmother???
  • La Comète -> the La Comète?? (eg The Waverly) Simarly, La Vènus

Everything seems fine. Towards Support --Redtigerxyz Talk 17:29, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(Resolved comments from Crisco 1492 moved to talk page)

  • Images (again)
By my count everything is fine. All images have source details and all but one is undeniably PD. The only one that is not PD is the work of a Wikipedian with and licensed correctly. Captions are in accordance with MOS. It would be preferable to have ALT text, but it's not required. Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:08, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support: I gave this article a detailed peer review, as a result of which a number of improvements were made; more have been effected during the FAC process. The one quibble I have is that I don't see the purpose of the two "See also" links and I don't imagine that any of your readers will use them. Personally I would drop them. But whatever you decide to do, well done in producing an original and historically fascinating article. Brianboulton (talk) 20:10, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done. Nikkimaria (talk) 04:08, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Closing comments - I have taken the liberty of spot-checking the sources (using Google Books) and found no issues. Graham Colm (talk) 14:10, 4 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 21:34, 3 March 2012 [7].

Ontario Highway 401

Nominator(s): ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 03:59, 31 December 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Nomination restarted. (Old nom) Raul654 (talk) 21:43, 11 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment on both opposes above - What coordinates are missing? What are "key features", and do you have a reliable source? Also note "no consensus" for use or non-use of coordinates at the recent RfC, as the closing admin stated: "The consensus of this RfC is section 9 to use shapefile software to illustrate the the area of highway mentioned in the article.", exactly what is accomplished through the KML. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 00:51, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • The KML matter has no bearing on this one; and the inevitable lack of consensus at that lamentable RfC means that it's still down to editors to make decisions on a more local basis. I have an open mind as to which features are key; but it's implausible to suggest that none are. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:26, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • So in other words it's original research, since you can't offer any reliable source that singles out features on this road as "key features"? Thanks, but moving along... - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 13:55, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • How you leap from "open mind" to "original research" is a mystery I have neither the time nor inclination to resolve. And, please, use your edit summaries to summarise your edits, not make snide remarks which, as in this case, and as so often on others, are wrong. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 14:25, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • If you are not willing to list and source what "key features" are so that I can decide whether or not to tag them, and instead move aside to comment on how I arrived at original research (because you haven't presented a reliable source) or on my edit summaries (I'm perfectly happy with my snide remarks, thank you), then there is nothing I can do to address your vague, exasperating request, which borders on WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. To repeat, the closing admin stated at the top of the closed RfC: "The consensus of this RfC is section 9 to use shapefile software to illustrate the the area of highway mentioned in the article.", so you are incorrect in stating "the inevitable lack of consensus at that lamentable RfC" (speaking of snide remarks). The KML file is a shapefile translated into XML format. No list of features that you feel are "key" + no source for those features being key + circuitous arguments = inactionable. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 14:33, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
            • I cannot speak for Highway 401, but for the UK articles for which you equally vociferously argue against coordinates using the same tired arguments, the reliable source for key features of roads are road atlases which devote whole pages to illustrating each motorway or major road junction - i.e. not only is the road junction featured in the main map; each road junction is then lifted out into a Road Junctions of the M1 type page. I'd be a little surprised if things were different for Canada. --Tagishsimon (talk) 19:32, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
              • I do have a book that not only lists each and every exit, but has various tours of local restaurants, villages and wineries, and well as historic landmarks in towns along the way. However, tagging every junction would break the template limit for a single article. Picking and choosing random points to tag gives undue weight. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 19:52, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
                • Editors regularly and inevitably choose what to include or exclude from an article, without drama. But, for the sake of argument, and by way of example, we could start with coordinates for the extant service centres, in the table listing them - there are only about ten of those. Then, in the junction list, we could have coordinates for junctions with other highways - I count roughly 30 of them. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:37, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source spotcheck This is my first time doing one of these, so please let me know if I did it wrong.

  • 20, 27, 32, 39, 60, 67, 73 good.
  • Hardcopy maps not checked; though there are no plagiarism concerns there.
  • Source 4 - I think it's good. "the busiest highway in North America" seems to be used by more than one source, I don't think that's a particularly distinctive phrase.
  • Source 6 - second cite - confused as to where you're getting the Santa Monica Freeway and the Houston references from. Third cite - "carrying 60 percent of vehicular trade between Canada and the US." versus "It carries 60 percent of all vehicular trade between Canada and the US."
  • Source 8 - don't think "busiest truck route in the world" is particularly distinctive either.
  • Source 14 - where is 2013 coming from? Third cite not supported. (My guess is that you got that info off the other pages in the site?)
  • Source 50 - not seeing the info for the first or third cite, maybe I'm missing it.
  • Source 79 - not sure where the "widening" part is coming from.

There's 177 citations so I'm about half done, but I'm running on very few hours of sleep and thus the spotchecking is getting more and more painful. --Rschen7754 03:04, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I do this the same way, and when one gets changed, I usually re-reference it in my next post as the current number. Mitch32(Never support those who think in the box) 14:34, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Exactly, I'm just copying the format of several other spotchecks; look at some of the other current reviews for examples. --Rschen7754 18:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Floydian, do you plan to address these issues? --Rschen7754 20:32, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • My bad, lost track of this among the pointless arguments. I've fixed everything up mentioned thus far; everything was already in the article but sometimes I've referenced the wrong thing. For ref 6, Shragge's online article mentions SMF, but I can't remember where Houston came from. It's not particularly important, so I removed it. I'm not sure how else to word that one particular sentence without making it grammatically incorrect or overly wordy. I backed up #14 for the 2013 date (the reference was for the routing). #50, the third is definitely there, but you are right about the first. I've switched that instance to the opening dates reference, which I use for the colour coded map. #79 I had to use my offline Shragge reference for (the newspaper reference just mentions that Highway 27 south of the 401 was part of the bypass, which other references earlier in the text had mentioned was a four-lane divided highway constructed in the 1950s. All fixed now though). - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 21:49, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Conditional support This is a nice well written article that deserves FA status when the elephant in the room has been addressed. The Infobox has no provision for the addition of terminal, or median co-ordinates. You cannot have a geographical infobox that doesn't give you a location- that needs to be fixed. The infobox fails to mention which country we are discussing, and the location of Ontario within it, I am sure that is easily fixed. Not surprisingly for a North American article the terminology used is regionally specific, for instance the the article is about a road- but the word highway is used without explanation throughout.The article itself is totally lacking in coordinates- and while this could be said valid design decision the fact that this issue remains open precludes this lovely text from being considered for FA. It is worrying that a particularly acrimonious RfC, is cited as justification, for one extreme POV. This rather proves that the text is not jet ready for FA. --ClemRutter (talk) 16:48, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I fail to see the correlation in your last point between using the outcome of an RfC that is directly relevant to this to justify not including something that I am not going to include (and that are NOT a requirement of a featured article. I can add the KML link into the infobox, but that is redundant when it appears directly above the infobox. There is absolutely no need to duplicate the information this KML contains with coordinates. If it can be done without displaying the degrees, minutes and seconds in the infobox, cluttering it with numbers that appear in the link provided, then I may reconsider. Until then, additional piling on will not change the situation. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:06, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Come on, stay on focus. The task in hand is getting this brilliant piece of writing past the FAC. The problem is the level of proof required- being brilliant isn't enough. The team trying to get this accepted has to get everyone on board- and there is this big elephant in the room.is a sparce guideline to the requirements of a featured article. Item 1a- the most important one talks about brilliant prose. This text is some of the best I have seen. Item 1b- is the sticking point comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context; as the text, and for me the infobox is totally lacking, or deliberately neglects a category of major facts and deliberately fails to place the subject in the context that is required by specialist editors- and required to set your SATNAV- and required in secondary school exam syllabuses the world over. As such the text will fail 1.b. The task is thus how to introduce sufficient coordinates in a form that doesn't damage the flow of the prose, so the text can be said to be comprehensive. As I have stated changes to the infobox could be beneficial and an easy way forward, and then I suggest that adding some tags to the tables may sweep up the rest of the problem. The next task 1.c is about referencing and I assume that is watertight. But now we come to 1.d neutral: it presents views fairly and without bias; which I am convinced the group has rigorously attempted to do but does it look that way to a random outsider, or does it look as the editing is ruthlessly protective of a particular style of editor to which many have been excluded- you have to be seen to be conciliatory and embracing. Finally 1.(e) stable: it is not subject to ongoing edit wars and its content does not change significantly from day to day, except in response to the featured article process. Thankfully, other editors who have been commenting are too busy elsewhere to play tit-for-tat and to even start making simple edits to the substantive text- but as I intimated there has been a proxy edit war going on elsewhere. The RFC was vicious, and drawing it to outsiders attention is not wise. For FAC it matters not who won the RFC but that there was no conflict in the first place and that is not true. To progress this further it will be necessary to address 1 b, 1e and to a lesser extent 1d. I seriously suggest that the infobox is the place to start- as doing this correctly will open up every Ontario Road article to FAC, and I would seriously suggest that being acrimonious is detrimental to the task in hand here. --ClemRutter (talk) 21:25, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I think all those can be solved by methods other than adding the degrees, minutes, and seconds to the article, and I look forward to compromising in that respect. I will not add obtrusive strings of numbers though, as they serve no purpose in this context. It is the link to geohack that is desired, not DMS coordinates. If {{coord}} had a method to suppress the DMS coords in the article, I would be happy to add them to the endpoints and Major junctions in the infobox and to the junction list. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 23:04, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Would you agree to hiding each of the junction numbers behind a link that says "junction"? Mileages behind a link that says "mileage"? I look forward to compromising in that respect. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 00:00, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I can relate to the horror of templates with 8 or more | chars, so though I normally set the output format of the {{coord}} to dms- I always input in dec. I have mocked up on in a sandbox one possible way of coding a bare minimum infobox, with two start/end coordinates that I pulled in using a bookmarklet I have set up. As you can see it is in Degrees and deci-degrees. If the aim is to keep the numbers to a minimum and suggesting that for a 16 lane highway an accuracy of +- 700m should be appropriate we arrive at 2 dec places as shown in the source code. I have <-smalled-> down the text and added the missing word Canada, and bolded the Highway name at the same time. In time this should be hardcoded into the template to enforce consistency- but this is just a mock up. In the article its self I can see merit in hiding the coords behind a graphic, so they only appear on a mouse roll-over (I did it once in raw javascript- but have never tried in Wikipedia to achieve the same effect-technical advice needed here). Enough for tonight.--ClemRutter (talk) 02:09, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've used your infobox. This is reasonable enough and doesn't stick coordinates in stupid places or for rediculous random points along the length of the highway. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 01:16, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Nobody is suggesting that we "duplicate the information this KML contains with coordinates"; since the KML does not explicitly identify the locations of key features. And, though it may surprise you, you are not the only editor. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:31, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This may surprise you, but I am the principal contributor to the article. So what are you suggesting? I don't care about anybody else: What the hell do you want? The KML explicitly identifies the endpoints of the highway, and the course it follows. Without a source, I do not know what a "key feature" is on this road. Do you? - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 19:29, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If the article is in such a state that its "principal contributor" [whatever that means] can't identify its key features, then perhaps we should abandon all attempts at FA until that situation is resolved. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:48, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Principal contributor means that in a list of contributors, I have made the most edits... In fact, very close to as many edits as all other editor combined![8]
If you are not willing to list and source what "key features" (whatever that means) are so that I can decide whether or not to tag them, then there is nothing I can do to address your vague, exasperating request, which borders on WP:IDIDNTHEARTHAT. To repeat, the closing admin stated at the top of the closed RfC: "The consensus of this RfC is section 9 to use shapefile software to illustrate the the area of highway mentioned in the article.". The KML file is a shapefile translated into XML format. No list of features that you feel are "key" + no source for those features being key + circuitous arguments = inactionable. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
so "Principal contributor" has no special meaning on Wikipedia, nor does it endow special privileges, thanks for clearing that up. "Key features" similarly has no special or technical meaning, just the dictionary definition; "significant features" or "important features" will do. You don't need to do anything; like I said above, you're not the only editor; nor is there any need for you to decide anything. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 20:59, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ah, important points.[according to whom?] I don't know of any point on this highway that is any more important than any other point on this highway. Fortunately, wikipedia doesn't accept my subjective opinion. I am not going to do anything, but similarly, I am not going to allow others to add some arbitrary points that they have decided are "important" when they can't provide a single piece of verification for those "important" points. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 21:59, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As you have been told previously, maps will verify the location of such points. If you believe that to be inadequate, raise an RfC to prohibt them. Oh, wait... Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:44, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No map I have ever read indicated the key features on Highway 401, so if you have one please share it so that I can use it as a source and add the coordinates your desire so! - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 23:04, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you're looking at map which shows Highway 401, but none of its important features, get a better map. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:53, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment this is inactionable. The reviewer refuses to elaborate on what things they feel need to be tagged. They refuse to provide a reliable source for "key features" ("Key features" is not a cartographic term). I have over three dozen maps of southern Ontario, various municipalities in southern Ontario, and historical maps of Ontario from every year between 1949 and 1990. I have official maps, I have commercial maps, I have tourist maps. In fact, I even have a book that describes the surroundings of every exit along the highway! None of these texts use the term "Key feature". None of the maps label any special points along the highway. The only Point of Interest (now there is an actual cartographic term!) on the entire highway is the Basketweave, which has a coordinate in its article. I cannot provide information that does not exist, and I cannot act on an ambiguous command. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:42, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As is so often the case, Floydian chooses to misrepresent my position, rather than to address it. I have never "refused to elaborate on what things need to be tagged"; though I have stated that I have an open mind on that matter; not presuming to be the font of all knowledge. It is Floydian who refuses to engage on the subject, preferring instead to pretend that my position is one of advocating original research; and to continue treating the generic phrase "key feature" as an exact technical term, despite having already been told that it is not. Many editors manage to include coordinates for features on other, comparable linear features, without the problems he claims to see. I am unsure of how to engage meaningfully with an editor who suggests that including coordinate data without making it readable to our readers (in which case it suddenly becomes possible to find, we must presume) is a "compromise". Fortunately, though, we do not need him to provide such data; merely to acknowledge that it would improve the article, allow it to meet FAC requirement 1b, and to cease his practice of refusing to allow other editors to do so. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:25, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
After posting the above, I added the coordinates for the Basketweave to the nominated article. Floydian summarily removed them. QED. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:21, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Again, coordinates are not required whatsoever in a featured article. Please review WP:WIAFA. --Rschen7754 18:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Sorry, that's a fallacious approach, WP:WIAFA deals with all topics from minerals to colours to clouds to laws to hedgehogs to books to movies, of course is doesn't say in the guidelines explicitly that co-ordinates are required. However, I draw your attention to: "1 (b) comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context;". The Rambling Man (talk) 18:26, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • And we have stated that coordinates are not the only way of presenting that information; it's done in the KML. Also, please read Wikipedia talk:Featured article criteria#Coordinates, where both Karanacs and Ucucha (former and current FA delegates, respectively) have stated that the FA criteria should not be interpreted as you have done so above. --Rschen7754 18:35, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • You know, that's just fine, but as I said below, a tiny map of some obscure place in Canada which presents me with no context whatsoever of what I'm about to read is hardly what I would expect from a featured article. Former and current FA delegates are welcome to their opinions just as I am mine. The infobox in the lead has no easily identifiable global context. This is English language Wikipedia, some of our readers may not recognise a very small map of a specific portion of a province of Canada. The Rambling Man (talk) 18:38, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
          • The KML maps the full course of the Road. It does not explicitly indicate the location of key features; it is not a substitute for the use of coordinate templates in the article, for such points (nor did the section of the re3cent RfC which introduced it claim that it was). Individual FA delegate's views carry exactly the same weight as mine, or any other individual editor's, and no more than that. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 19:48, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment as a complete outsider who has merely commented on the content and not the rights and wrongs of KML files etc, I do find it odd that an infobox that opens an article about a geographical subject in an encyclopaedia lacks both global context and geographical detail. I'm not from Ontario, not from Canada, not from North America – from the infobox there's absolutely no geographical context for this road. I'm neither for nor against adding arbitrary waypoints (on one hand it would be useful to know the extents in the case of road like this, on the other hand, of course that couldn't be extended to roads such as ring roads) but it is a little strange (from my non-expert, naive perspective) that I can't tell where in the world this is easily, particularly in an article we are aiming to be one of our "finest examples". The Rambling Man (talk) 17:38, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

What about the map in the infobox? --Rschen7754 18:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, but as I mentioned, I'm not from Ontario, Canada or North America, how would I recognise the context of that map in any way at all? The Rambling Man (talk) 18:20, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Either by clicking the link directly below the map that indicates it is a map of southern Ontario, or by reading the first sentence of the article: "King's Highway 401, also known by its official name as the Macdonald–Cartier Freeway and colloquially as the four-oh-one,[3] is a 400-series highway in the Canadian province of Ontario" - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 19:29, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I mean global geographical context. If I clicked "random article" and this came up, how would I know where in the world it was from its infobox? And what is the "link directly below the map"? I don't see it. I should be able to gain a contextual understanding from the graphics in the infobox, wouldn't you agree? The Rambling Man (talk) 19:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I would not, and you would by reading more than the infobox, which is merely a summary. Picture books are for children; readers need to read to understand the topic they are reading about, and not rely solely upon pictures to tell them about the topic. The caption of the map is sufficient to provide the context: "Highway 401 (in red) within Southern Ontario", with that link taking you to an article that describes Southern Ontario. The map is appropriately scaled, as maps should be, to show the topic within ITS geographical context (and not within the context of the planet). If you want to know where Southern Ontario or Canada is, then read the articles on Southern Ontario or on Canada. I cannot provide basic geography lessons for people. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 20:19, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Then I see no point at all in a map in the infobox. It provides information, it would seem, to only a handful of people who understand the context of the map, i.e. people from Ontario or north-east (?) Canada. I suggest removing it altogether or providing more context to a global audience. It's nothing to do with "basic" geography lessons, that map is effectively useless to everyone bar those who know where it is. In which case they don't need it because they know where it is. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:59, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So what you want is a picture of the globe with a dot on it showing people - whom can't be bothered to make use of the interlinked encyclopedia we have built - where Ontario is in the world? Should I make the map a copy this map and stick a dot just north of Lake Ontario, since that will have more encyclopedic value than... well... absolutely nothing? I don't know what you expect, besides making a map for a person that probably wouldn't recognize the shape of North America either. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 22:13, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, a clickable link in the infobox to take me a decent mapping application would be perfect because that way, it wouldn't matter who was looking at this article, at least they'd have a way of getting some immediate context. And reduced hostility in your response would be even better. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:18, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I apologize. Please be aware the hostility is directed solely at Andy, and that anything else is spill-over because this is getting old, fast. I have added the kml links to the infobox (a clickable link that offers you the choice between two decent mapping applications), even though I feel it replicates links that are less than an inch above the infobox on my screen. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 22:22, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
So far today, you've admitted that you're "perfectly happy" making my snide remarks to me; and now being hostile towards me. I suggest you go and brush up on WP:5P, particularly WP:CIVIL and WP:NPA Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:49, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I suggest that you answer the questions I have asked instead of beating around the bush so that your reasoning has a leg to stand on. You're going to quite the extreme to avoid actually showing me a list of "key features". - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 23:04, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have already answered that request; I said that "I have an open mind as to which features are key". You responded, albeit with an inane comment, so I know you saw it. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:53, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I had the same issue when I took a road article to FAC. The reviewer was satisfied when I added an inset map showing Iowa's location in the US. I created a mockup of what we could do here in a sandbox. It's a map of Canada with a box around the area of the current map? Also, I'm leaning towards darkening Canada a little bit in the inset map, so let me know if you agree. –Fredddie™ 18:47, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
It's close, but you'd still need idiot readers like me to be able to recognise the Eastern seaboard of North America.... (maybe look at some of the taxonomic articles which provide global context...) The Rambling Man (talk) 18:50, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If the article says it is in Ontario, Canada, is it not safe to assume that a map of Canada suffices? I like the mockup, if that what's necessary (because editors either look at pictures or words, but never both), but I'd make the tan colour of Canada the same as the light green colour I use for land in the southern Ontario map. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 19:29, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
See above. It would be useful to see a globally contextual map. The current map is pointless. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Other quick issues beyond the map/co-ordinate issue, just in case:

  • "Quebec City – Windsor Corridor" our article has that unspaced, would resolve it here or there if I were you.
  • Is it "E.C. Row Expressway " or "E. C. Row Expressway " or "E C Row Expressway "? be consistent with the rest of Wikipedia if possible.
  • Do you really think that "truck route" equates to "bypass"? Perhaps this is a US thing but I certainly don't equate the pair, although if I'm honest, I've never heard of a "truck route".
  • Should auto industry really be "automobile industry"?
  • Should changeable message be hyphenated (like the article)?
  • Yorkdale Mall appears to be called Yorkdale Shopping Centre....
  • Weird that West and East Don River both link to exactly the same article. Is there a sub-section you could link to in the article?
  • I'm not sure I see the point of linking all the Durham roads if they lead to the same article. Is there a sub-section you could link to in the article?
  • Is it St. Lawrence River or Saint Lawrence River? Consistency and avoid over linking is needed.
  • " Windsor Salt mine" our link is " Windsor Salt Mine" in its entirety.
  • What makes all those external links relevant? Some seem to be YouTube videos. What do they tell me? Are they relevant to a professional article?
  • Also, FWIW, a quote from Floydian (above): "This may surprise you, but I am the principal contributor to the article. So what are you suggesting? I don't care about anybody else: What the hell do you want?" doesn't encourage me to support this nomination at all, to the point of making an clear oppose. What a remarkable world we live in where we get to such aggression in an online project over a bunch of co-ordinates etc. I think, maybe, this kind of article has had it easy at FAC, many early supports, all of whom clearly miss basic problems, and sometimes fundamental questions need to be answered. Let's cut to the chase. The Rambling Man (talk) 21:46, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Familiarize yourself with the 8 month history of these two and the absolute unwillingness of Andy to compromise on ANYTHING and you will understand why there is such aggression. It's not just a case of it springing up out of nowhere: Andy and Tagishsimon have made a point to follow each other to every FAC held in the past several months to oppose on coordinates. Several FAC's have been promoted regardless. I am not putting coordinates in this article, no, nope, not, never, nay, non. You may choose to support or oppose accordingly. An oppose based on FAC conduct is offtopic. I will address the other comments tonight. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 22:16, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As a new reviewer to this kind of thing, I try to bring new perspectives. I don't need to familiarise myself with your arguments. I haven't brought any external issues here, I've just brought up issues from this and the previous discussion at FAC. I've tried hard to remain objective, and yes, I'll oppose because this miniature map of nowhere with no context for the remainder of the world is inadequate. Cheers. The Rambling Man (talk) 22:23, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Good point, but where does it end? The original map showed the highway within Southern Ontario, and now there's a map showing Ontario in Canada. Do you want a 'in-between' map showing Southern Ontario in Ontario? Do you want another map showing Canada in North America, and another showing North America on Earth? That's a lot of maps... If you're going that way you may as well show Earth's place in the Solar System and a Galaxy map showing our place in the known Universe. Haljackey (talk) 16:37, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
A broader map would lack any EV that this map has. I have added links to google maps and bing maps directly below it so that those who are unfamiliar can zoom out and see what they are looking at. I cannot compromise precision. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 22:39, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
To address the other points, in order:
  • This was a recent change in our dash conventions for article titles, fixed.
  • Not even sure why that's linked
  • Probably... fixed
  • Yep, fixed
  • That's probably the official name, but locally it's just Yorkdale Mall (signs on the highway also refer to it as such)
  • They were once separate I think, but in either case both branches are notable for eventual separate articles
  • Good point. Fixed
  • Fixed
  • Fixed
  • These satisfy the requirements of WP:EL. The videos are essentially a virtual tour of some sections of the highway. They're standards on most Ontario freeway articles, including Don Valley Parkway
-- ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 04:50, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I've updated the infobox map. Let me know if this is what you were looking for. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:06, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"the absolute unwillingness of Andy to compromise on ANYTHING"; "Andy and Tagishsimon have made a point to follow each other to every FAC held in the past several months to oppose on coordinates" Why are you telling lies, Floydian? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:44, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"I am not putting coordinates in this article" Again, you are not the only editor. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:44, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Coordinates are optional and shouldn't impede this Featured Article nomination. Can we move on, please? Haljackey (talk) 19:05, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps you're too busy to read the above debate, so allow me to summarise. FAs are required to meet the criterion: "1 (b) comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context". Being an FA is optional, too. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits
I believe that this article meets all Featured Article criteria and that's why I have given it my Support. Sure Featured Articles are 'optional', but there are requirements that have to be met. A coordinate system is not one of them. Drop it and move on to more constructive things. Thanks. Haljackey (talk) 19:16, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You seem to have failed to read what I wrote: FAs are required to meet the criterion: "1 (b) comprehensive: it neglects no major facts or details and places the subject in context". This is expanded upon by other editors as well as me, above. An instruction to "drop it" is not a compelling counter-argument. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 21:23, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
You're argument fails to challenge the criterion you quoted as the article already complies with everything stated in the criterion. While it's fine that we have a difference in opinion in the matter, I would prefer that this discussion not take place in this nomination page as it contributes to clutter. That is what I meant by 'dropping it'. Having said that, I will no longer discuss the matter on this page. Haljackey (talk) 22:16, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
On the contrary, the article does not adequately define the location of any of the individual features of the highway discussed, as giving those features' coordinates would. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 22:32, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I have to say that the above argument for coordinates should be disregarded by the FA delegates. Coordinates aren't normally added for the locations of things in articles that cover wide geographic areas, and adding them would clutter the article for little benefit. Nick-D (talk) 00:34, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Your claim that "Coordinates aren't normally added for the locations of things in articles that cover wide geographic areas" is false; as is your claim of "little benefit". Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note -- I was contacted by a reviewer here regarding the continuing discussion re. coordinates. Obviously this was hashed over a few months ago at WT:FAC and based on that and what I've observed of this and similar articles I can't see myself holding up this nom on the subject of coordinates -- a couple of which the nominator appears to have just added to the infobox anyway, despite initial reluctance. Since the spotcheck I requested earlier has been done (tks Rschen) I just have a few more checks of my own to make, which may give ClemRutter and other reviewers a chance to respond to that recent change. In any case, I think the process has gone on long enough. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:55, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for expressing your view; but where do you see consensus to proceed without coordinates? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 11:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Although WP:FORUMSHOPPING doesn't directly answer the question here, because this isn't a "noticeboard" and we're not asking multiple admins, I think the general question is relevant, that is, whether it helps or hurts FAC when people use this forum as a do-over for arguments that have already been won, lost or drawn elsewhere. - Dank (push to talk) 14:07, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Interesting question. Which argument has been "won, lost or drawn"? Come to think of it, which Wikipedia policy allows for an argument to be "won, lost or drawn"? Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All things must come to an end. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 17:42, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: This may be a moot point since it was subsequently removed, but this edit added coordinates to the prose of the article. That in itself I'm not arguing against. According to WP:MOSICON, we cannot put icons in body of an article, but in tables, icons are fine. Thus, we are forbidden from saying "...is a 400-series highway in the  Canadian province of  Ontario..." Why would "East of Highway 400 is The Basketweave (43°43′03″N 79°30′11″W / 43.717613°N 79.502950°W / 43.717613; -79.502950), ..." be any different? Both have icons that interrupt the text. –Fredddie™ 22:57, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Such concerns should be raised on the template's talk page; or the relevant MoS talk page, and are immaterial to this FAC nomination. (Anyone contemplating the current consensus should note the many thousands of instances of {{Coord}} already in article prose; and that - unlike the flag icons - the globe is functional.) Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 23:28, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Will do. I look forward to the discussion at WT:MOSICON. –Fredddie™ 23:50, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: I've reverted a few of the edits made today to this article. The "lane counts" table was completely unsourced, and seems to be extraneous detail. The AADT table seems that way too, but I didn't remove that. Also, the random coordinate added by Andy I removed as well, as being irrelevant, and covered by the related article. I've also restored the KML links to the title area; Andy's replacing those with the coordinate links flies in the face of the outcome of the HWY RFC we held earlier this year. --Rschen7754 00:02, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't add any random" coordinates, I added the coordinates for what the nominator earlier referred to "The only Point of Interest[sic]… on the entire highway". And I didn't "replace [KML links] with the coordinate links", I merely removed the former as they overlay other text in the same area; as I noted in my edit summary. Why are you posting false statements? Your reference to the RfC is a complete red herring; I have done nothing in contravention of its result. Note, though, that the RfC found no consensus for proposals to remove coordinates form articles about highways. You've also neglected to mention that at the same time, you removed accessible list markup from the article's infobox, thereby restoring deprecated <br>-separated lists, in contravention of the MoS. In fact, what you did was to revert all changes since Floydian's last version. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 01:09, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you are [sic]'ing there... Just because it's the only Point of Interest referred to on any of map does not mean it is a significant point on the highway. A great example of how this is [[WP:OR|original research] and undue weight on your part. "I didn't "replace [KML links] with the coordinate links", I merely removed the former" - why are you removing useful information for irrelevant information? The overlapping text only shows up to registered opt-in users, and will be resolved once this nomination is complete; a title coordinate would suffer from the same problem - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 02:03, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'm [sic]-ing your claim that there is only one point of interest. Your claims of OR remain as bogus as they ever were. I removed no information, useful or otherwise, I removed links which already exist elsewhere in the article for reasons I have already given twice; and I added no information, much less irrelevant information, in their place. please feel free to demonstrate otherwise. We should not feature an article with overlapping text, even if "only"[sic] for registered opt-in users, so that's an additional objection on my part. Your comment about a title coordinate is a red herring, since the article has none. Your argument that the Breadbasket, which is notable enough to have its own article, is not a significant point on the highway is utterly fatuous. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 10:53, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Sic is for transcribing spelling mistakes ("thus it was written"), not an equivalent to citation needed or something...
The overlapping text will be resolved when the FAC is completed, as the text at the top will be truncated. You earlier opposed (before the reset) based on the lack of a title coordinate; it would have the same overlap. It's not a red herring, it's pointing out an obvious mediawiki flaw that needs to be addressed - not on the article level though, as it potentially effects all articles in a narrow enough window.
If you log out, all that appears is "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". If you have not opted-in to the "Display an assessment of an article's quality as part of the page header for each article." gadget, all that appears is "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia". This is not a content issue, and I will not address it. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:28, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for attempting to teach me to suck eggs regarding the use of sic; but I'll stick to using it as I did, since my usage was correct. I didn't request a citation, since there cannot be one valid for your false assertion. Noted that you refuse to address my valid objection; however, whether or not the article gets featured is, fortunately, not your call. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 17:53, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
What false assertion has been made? Fortunately it isn't your call either; it's the call of the delegates who you continue to pick arguments with. Good luck with that one. - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 18:01, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The one referred to above. Unlike you; I've never refereed to what I will or will not "allow"" on the nominated article. And funnily enough, I always thought Wikipedia worked by consensus. Andy Mabbett (Pigsonthewing); Talk to Andy; Andy's edits 18:14, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Regarding the lane table, Floydian gave me the green light to put it in as it shows the reader the girth of the roadway without diving into the text and piece together where the highway expands and contracts. All the data was collected from referenced text in the article, including the lengths which was acquired from the exit list. Normally I would agree that this would be unnecessary for a highway article, but the fact that the 401 varies so greatly in lane count warrants this list. It also shows just how long the widest sections are, which are normally short for most freeways. Haljackey (talk) 03:02, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
If you can put the sources right in the table, it might work out. --Rschen7754 04:38, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, even if they're repeat sources found elsewhere in the article? Should the volumes table have these references too? Haljackey (talk) 04:42, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, and yes. You can just aggregate them using <ref name="ref" />. --Rschen7754 04:45, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I have added the references for lane count, but the Kingston widening references are pending until they can be dug up. Haljackey (talk) 07:09, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Looks like it's still under construction until July.[9] - ʄɭoʏɗiaɲ τ ¢ 16:33, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Judging from these photos, the widening is complete. Looks like it was completed ahead of the mid-2012 deadline indicated in that contract. [10]. Now we just need to find some sources that state this, perhaps Kingston media. Haljackey (talk) 16:57, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Neutral, leaning support (for delegates closing this). I made a huge number of picky technical points, all of which were dealt with. I asked one or two more fundamental questions about the whole co-ordinate thing,and as an outsider, I'm reasonably satisfied that my non-expert requirements have now been met. I don't want to get involved with the lengthy ongoing issues, so I just wanted to clarify my position in case there was any misunderstanding from the archived FAC. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:15, 27 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Leaning support. I don't have the time to read the article thoroughly, but from what I've found, it seems good. Spotcheck found no major issues; a few mismatched facts to citations, but nothing serious. --Rschen7754 08:09, 28 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose 13:15, 3 March 2012 [11].

Battle of Arawe

Nominator(s): Nick-D (talk) 04:45, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The Battle of Arawe was a small-scale campaign fought between Allied (mainly United States) and Japanese forces on the island of New Britain between late 1943 and early 1944. The operation served as a diversion from a larger American landing on the island, and both sides regarded it as something of a sideshow to this. Nevertheless, the battle involved large scale Japanese air attacks as well as a series of raids made by the American and Japanese forces. As such, it's an interesting microcosm of the way in which much of the Pacific War was fought during this period.

I've been working on this article on and off for several years now. It was assessed as a GA last December and passed a Military History Wikiproject A class review several weeks ago. It has since been expanded and copy edited, and I think that it may now meet the FA criteria. Thanks in advance for your comments. Nick-D (talk) 04:45, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sources and images but no spotchecks. Nikkimaria (talk) 21:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • File:CartwheelAreaMap.jpg: source site credits "F. Temple" for this image. Same with File:USA-P-Rabaul-17.jpg. File:Japanese_Withdrawal_Routes_in_West_New_Britain.jpg and File:Arawe_Landings.png are credited to R.F. Stibil
    • I've added full details added for all images (and uploaded File:USA-P-Rabaul-17.jpg to Commons under a much clearer name).
  • be consistent in how multi-author works are notated
    • Only one is left now.
  • Be consistent in how reprinted works and new editions are notated
    • Fixed
  • "General Headquarters, Army Forces Pacific" or "General Headquarters Army Forces, Pacific"?
    • Oops: it's actually neither of the two versions I used, but actually 'General Headquarters, Army Forces, Pacific'. Well spotted and fixed.
  • No citations to Hough and Crown 1952, Krueger 1979
    • Both removed
  • Check formatting on Morison bibliography entry
    • Fixed
  • Osprey or Ospery Publishing? Nikkimaria (talk) 21:57, 28 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
comments by Gnangarra
  • My initial read of this article is thats its comprehensive, and clear no obvious issue stand out its not over loaded with jargon. I did stumble on the Plans for Operation Cartwheel were amended in August 1943 when the British and United States Combined Chiefs of Staff approved the Joint.... <emphasis added> as British felt out of place but the link to Combined Chiefs of Staff clarified that, but I consider more during a second reading. Is the abbreviation necessary for Imperial Japanese Army (IJA) as its not used anywhere in the article. Gnangarra 16:21, 29 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've removed the IJA. I agree that it's complex to explain what the Combined Chiefs of Staff where in half a sentence when they didn't play much of a role here, but as they were the decision makers it needs to be said who approved what and this was the best I could come up with (after trying quite a few different options!). Nick-D (talk) 10:18, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • Just a thought can Plans for Operation Cartwheel were amended in August 1943 when the British and United States Combined Chiefs of Staff approved the Joint Chiefs of Staff's proposal that Rabaul be isolated rather than captured.[5] become Plans for Operation Cartwheel were amended in August 1943 when the Combined Chiefs of Staff approved the proposal that Rabaul be isolated rather than captured.[5] remove British and US stops the double take I had, and as the section starts with In July 1942, the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff directed that the main objective of the Allied forces in the South Pacific and South West Pacific area commands was to neutralize the major Japanese base at Rabaul on the eastern tip of New Britain makes the use of Joint Cheifs of Staff's redundant and by removing it as well eliminates any confusion between the command level structure that your trying to avoid by using British and US in that sentence. Gnangarra 14:01, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support
    • I like the wording of the bit about the JCS and the CCS. The fact is that far from directing operations, CCS 301 endorsed operations that were already under way.
    • "advanced along the north coast of eastern New Guinea, capturing the town of Lae and the Huon Peninsula in September" The Huon Peninsula was not cleared until December.
      • Good point; I've removed 'September' here as it wasn't really necessary
    • "in favor of capturing Cape Gloucester to in order secure" Word order a little off here.
      • Tweaked
    • You describe Chips as commander of the 7th Fleet, which is true, but he was also in charge of the Allied Naval Forces, and therefore equal to Kenney, whereas the article might be interpreted otherwise due to the wording
      • Tweaked
    • Could the article consistently use "South West Pacific" without the hyphen, as this is the modern Australian form?
    • Could you link "landing ship infantry" and "landing ship dock', as many readers will not be familiar with these ship types?
      • Good point; done

Hawkeye7 (talk) 02:11, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Spot checks:
  • fn 3: The JCS directive said: "Seize and occupy Rabaul". The source says: "the ultimate reduction of the Japanese stronghold at Rabaul". The article says: "neutralize", which is unsupported and incorrect. It was right at the A-class review this edit messed it up.
    • I've changed this to 'capture', which appears to be in line with both the source and the Oxford English Dictionary. I'm trying to avoid using 'reduce' as I suspect that people who are unfamiliar with military terminology won't understand what it means, though it is the best term for those who are familiar with this use of the word. I hope that this is OK, but would appreciate alternative suggestions for wording this. Nick-D (talk) 10:16, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I understand the problem, which I have experienced myself in several other articles. I went through all the primary documents once attempting to discover when the decision was taken to neutralise rather than capture Rabaul. As it turned out, this decision was not taken at once by the JCS, and was opposed by MacArthur, so it took some time. The other point that this drove home is that while many accounts of battles in the Pacific start by talking about a JCS decision, in reality most of the planning was bottom up, with planning being done in the theatres and sent to the JCS. Hawkeye7 (talk) 19:51, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • fn 4, 11, 31, 54, 56, 73, 83, 85, 87, 96, 98 - all okay. No sign of close paraphrase.
  • Hawkeye7 (talk) 01:42, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for these spot checks.

Comments. As always, feel free to revert my copyediting. Please check the edit summaries; WP:MHU will explain some of them. - Dank (push to talk)

  • "expanded to 60 days of general supplies and six days worth of all categories of ammunition": I don't believe we implement WP:ORDINAL consistently, I'm just pointing out that some will object to "60 ... six". Also, Garner's prefers "days' worth". Also, why "days" in the first part and "days' worth" in the second? - Dank (push to talk) 15:25, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Changed to '60 days worth'. I've used digits for numbers higher than 12 and words for numbers lower than this in the same sentence in previous FA-level articles without complaints, and I think that it works best. I'm not wedded to this though if anyone thinks that it really sucks though! Nick-D (talk) 06:34, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • So far so good on prose per standard disclaimer, down to where I stopped, Opposing forces. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 15:17, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sure thing. Continuing: "The Allies possessed little intelligence on western New Britain's terrain and the exact location of Japanese forces. To rectify this, Allied aircraft many extensive air photography sorties over the region and small ground patrols were landed from PT boats.": I changed it to "The Allies possessed little intelligence on western New Britain's terrain and the exact location of Japanese forces, so they flew extensive air photography sorties over the region, and small ground patrols were landed from PT boats." - Dank (push to talk) 22:24, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "This party was detected near the village of Umtingalu, leading the Japanese to strengthen their defenses there.": voice, since. Changed to: "The Japanese detected this party near the village of Umtingalu and strengthened their defenses there." - Dank (push to talk) 05:12, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Few attacks were made on the Arawe area, however, in an attempt to achieve tactical surprise for the landing.": "Attempt" is the wrong word to describe not doing something.
    • Tweaked (it's more wordy, but also - I think - much clearer)
  • "In addition to these air raids, a force comprising two Australian and two American (designated Task Force 74.2) bombarded the Gasmata area during the night of 29/30 November.": missing word(s)
    • Fixed
  • "lacked confidence in conducting amphibious operations.": in their abilities, their men's abilities, the wisdom of the operations, the specific plans, or something else?
    • The officers didn't really know what they were doing - I've tweaked this to 'trained'
  • "they had not been previously equipped": Garner's prefers "they had not previously been equipped". - Dank (push to talk) 05:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "5 in (130 mm) guns", "5 in ammunition": Garner's generally recommends avoiding abbreviations in running text that are common English words, and I guess that would include "in". (FWIW, they don't like "am" instead of "a.m." for the same reason, but MOSNUM says it's okay.)
    • Fixed
  • "It was originally intended that the troop would land close to Paligmete, but it switched to the island's west coast ...": "it" dangles.
    • Fixed
  • "Once ashore, the cavalrymen advanced east but came under fire from a small Japanese force stationed in two caves near the village of Winguru on the island's north coast.": If "until they" can be substituted for "but" here, do it. - Dank (push to talk) 03:08, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. This was just promoted; I'm almost done and can do the rest in the article itself. Supporting on prose per standard disclaimer. These are my edits. - Dank (push to talk) 13:16, 3 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support with nitpicks

Nikkimaria (talk) 16:32, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Malleus Fatuorum

Military situation
  • "... it was decided to land a small force in the Arawe area to establish a PT boat base and create a diversion prior to the main landing at Cape Gloucester.[10] The landing at Arawe had three goals: to divert Japanese attention from Cape Gloucester, to establish a base for PT boats, and to establish a defensive perimeter and make contact with the Marines once they landed". Why do we need to be told twice that two of the goals were to establish a base for PT boats and to create a diversion?
  • Good point: we don't, and I've trimmed the first sentence in the para
Planning
  • "... asked for only emergency refuelling facilities to be constructed at Arawe". I can't quite get that. Should it be "asked only for", or "emergency refuelling facilities only"?
  • "Under these plans, the Task Force was to initially capture the Arawe Peninsula". What plans? The preceding sentence talks about orders, not plans.
Landings
  • "More than 20 Japanese were located in a cave on the east side of the peninsula, and these were killed by members of "E" Troop and personnel from the squadron headquarters." I'm not fond of referring to the Japanese soldiers as "these", seems disrespectful.
Japanese response
  • "The American force defeated several Japanese attempts to move around the Umtingalu during the day ...". Why the Umtingalu?
  • "... the Japanese were repulsed by fire from the 112th Cavalry's 60 millimetres (2.4 in) mortars". Should that be "60-millimetre (2.4 in) mortars"?
  • "... elements of the Komori Force ambushed two platoon-sized American patrols traveling in trucks north-east of Umtingalu". We have "northeast" and "southwest" elsewhere.

Support. All my comments have been more than adequately addressed. Malleus Fatuorum 23:01, 2 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 10:47, 3 March 2012 [13].

Faryl

Nominator(s): J Milburn (talk) 17:44, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Last Sunday, I nominated Faryl Smith for featured status, and today, I bring you her debut album. An archetypal classical-crossover recording, it broke records for its high number of sales and was nominated for a top award, but had no great success outside of the UK. The classical community liked it, even though I'd imagine a lot of them didn't want to like it due to Smith's appearance on Britain's Got Talent. I feel that the article is well-written and referenced, and comprehensively covers all details of the album. J Milburn (talk) 17:44, 15 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Source review - spotchecks not done, use a consistent date format. Nikkimaria (talk) 05:05, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks; made one fix. J Milburn (talk) 09:04, 19 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Repetition of "features" in para 1, can this be tweaked
  • Smith meeting with then-Prime Minister Gordon Brown — reads as if this was was organised as part of the promotion, which seems unlikely, although it obviously helped. Needs rephrasing
  • and the album sold 29,200 copies in the first week — avoid repetition, perhaps and 29,200 copies in the first full week
  • Though generally critical of move — Is there a word missing?
  • because obviously, it's a big deal for me — The punctuation is clearly wrong. This may be how the source put it, but although you can't change the words of an oral statement, it seems reasonable to correct erroneous punctuation by the reporter or subeditor.
  • out of a possible 5 stars — should be possible to avoid repeating this

Image review The only image has an appropriate non-free use rationale Jimfbleak - talk to me? 07:39, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks very much for your thoughts. I appreciate the time you've taken. J Milburn (talk) 23:45, 23 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support with nitpicks and the disclaimer that I've still done no spotchecks. Nikkimaria (talk) 18:02, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments! J Milburn (talk) 12:57, 13 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support with nitpicks: A thorough article which is very readable and clear. Seems comprehensive, but I'm afraid I know very little about the album or Miss Smith! Just a few picky points, and feel free to argue with any of them. --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:12, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • "The album's promotion included numerous television and radio appearances": Reads as if the album made appearances; maybe better to say "As part of the album's promotion, Smith made numerous television and radio appearances, and around this time met…"
  • "and a total of 29,200 copies in the first week, which is higher than any other debut album of a classical singer" Redundancy?
  • Very minor, but promotion/promotional is used three times in the lead which jars very, very slightly.
  • "Despite the fact she was at one point the favourite to win…" A little cumbersome? Maybe "Although favourite to win, …" (I think the source justifies the slight change in emphasis)
    • "Although favourite to win" is a little strong, I feel. It's not quite like she was going into the final with everyone expecting her to win; more that, at one point, she was the one the bookies liked the best. If you think my wording doesn't accord with the source, I can add a couple more references. J Milburn (talk) 11:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • No, I think the source supports either wording and I'm happy for it to stay like this. My main objection was that the phrase was a little clunky, but not enough to be a big problem. One other possibility I could see would be to remove "Despite the fact" to make it flow marginally better, but happy to go with your judgement either way. --Sarastro1 (talk) 17:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "and after the show she rejected offers": Again a little clunky. What about "and later rejected"?
  • "during Smith's Christmas holiday": Presumably holiday from school rather than a "getaway"? Is this important enough to include?
    • It provides an idea of timescale, as well as the stress that it was not interfering with her school life. This is something that is often stressed with artists like this. I remember a while ago there was controversy about teen singers missing school, and so record companies now need to be much more careful. J Milburn (talk) 11:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "on the third of January" Why not "on 3 January"?
  • "with performances at the Mandarin Oriental Hotel and appearances at the debut of Oliver!.": Maybe specify "performances by Smith". Also the comment about "the debut of Oliver!" is a little strange as Oliver obviously did not come out in 2009!
  • "Contrary to what was said on the third series of Britain's Got Talent, Smith had no plans for a concert tour in 2009; she was quoted as saying that "I'm too young and don't think I would be able to do a tour on my own"": Not sure why we need to have a "contrary to" thing happening here as the reader probably will not realise what was said on the series. I would consider cutting the start of the sentence and beginning "Smith had no plans…"
    • That appearance on BGT was probably the biggest she had made at that stage beyond her original BGT appearances. I'll reword slightly, as you're right that the average reader will not know what was said, but I do think the mention needs to stay. Also an interesting aside about how little BGT apparently cared- in some ways, I'm amazed they took her when she didn't sign with Syco. J Milburn (talk) 11:33, 21 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "On 23 May 2009, after the US release, Faryl peaked at 31 on Top Heatseekers Albums chart, and at six on the Classical Albums chart, remaining in the charts for one and 17 weeks respectively": The date confuses me slightly here. Was the album released on that date or did it peak on that date? If the latter, maybe lose the date entirely? Also, maybe make it clear here that this now refers to the US charts? --Sarastro1 (talk) 22:12, 20 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not too happy with the prose yet; there are too many clunky constructions like "it was reported by The Sun that" (why not "The Sun reported that"?) and "Smith described the song by saying that". Ucucha (talk) 23:04, 22 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Both sentences have now been reworded. I hope dealing with Sasata's niggles has gone some way to deal with your concerns. Thanks, J Milburn (talk) 01:18, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comments. Prose niggles by Sasata (talk) 17:38, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments, I appreciate you taking the time. The MoS is labyrinthine... J Milburn (talk) 01:18, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • no problem, here's a few more: Sasata (talk) 15:12, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • "The album was recorded during December 2008 and January 2009 and features the track "River of Light", a song set to The Blue Danube, for which a promotional music video was recorded." needs tweaking; it currently reads as if a music video was made for the Blue Danube
  • "Smith subsequently embarked on a promotional tour of the US…" in the US, unless she was promoting the US of A
  • I think it would be useful to state explicitly somewhere how old she was when she recorded or released this album, or in the background section, how old she was in her first BGT competition
  • maybe link pressing and recording studio
  • "you can practically hear Katherine Jenkins weep as Faryl flawlessly executes Amazing Grace" is this an inside joke? … who is Katherine Jenkins?
    • Katherine Jenkins is a Welsh singer to whom Smith can very easily be compared- she's probably the most popular mezzo-soprano working in the UK today. She's also something of a mentor to Smith, and signed on the same label. The reference would be clear to anyone reading the review, but I appreciate that the same doesn't hold with the article- do you think it needs clarifying? J Milburn (talk) 16:51, 24 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • As as outsider, I'm still left wondering if she would have been weeping because she thought the performance was immaculate and beautiful, or because she was in anguish that another younger singer performed the piece even better than she did? Maybe I'm jaded... Sasata (talk) 14:52, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • imho, there's a couple too many usages of impress/impressive in the first paragraph of "Reception"

Note -- Ucacha and Sasata, do the recent changes/responses satisfy your prose concerns? I found a couple of inconsistencies in chart number formatting that I corrected. Re. spotchecks, I saw that Milburn's previous FAC had one and Sasata appears to have checked some sources here, so I have no quibbles on that front. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:02, 25 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • I hadn't actually performed a spot check, but since one was requested on FAC talk, I checked about a dozen citations, and found no problems with close-paraphrasing or otherwise. One statement fails verification (I suspect the citation got mixed up):
  • the external link in ref #27 (Pahphides 2009) redirects to the Times current front page
  • fails verification: "…while Birchmeier was slightly more positive, awarding Faryl 3.5 out of 5."[5]

Comments on accessibility: The image in the infobox lacks any alternate text (no alt text; no caption) and would therefore be invisible to anyone using a screen reader, other than a link to the image description page. WP:Manual of Style/Accessibility#Images is the relevant guideline and WP:Alternative text for images gives good advice on implementation. The template {{tracklist}} unfortunately produces a table which lacks scope attributes and also does not identify row headers, which results in a limitation on the way many screen readers are able to navigate the table. If that template is to be used for articles that showcase Wikipedia's best work, then it really would benefit by being updated to take account of the guidelines at WP:Manual of Style/Accessibility#Data tables. I understand that accessibility issues represent an additional "hurdle" that many editors may not yet be comfortable with, but we should be aiming towards raising the standards of our articles to be the best that they can be. The more editors who are aware of the difficulties that can be caused to disabled visitors, the better an experience we can offer to them. Hope that helps, --RexxS (talk) 18:39, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I have added alt text to the image, but I am not comfortable making any changes to the tracklist template, as I am not overly familiar with the relevant syntax, and I am not comfortable using something different, as the tracklist template is standard and recommended. I gather that this is not part of the criteria, but I'm willing to do what I can. J Milburn (talk) 19:27, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Might I ask (politely!) if you really feel that you need to use the {{tracklist}} template at all? I'm sure that one simple answer to that is that "it's how these featured album articles are done" but I was wondering if there was a way we could please more of the people more of the time...?! Hand-coding a table of this style and keeping it accessible is reasonably easy (I'd be more than happy to help with that, have a look at a really quick attempt here). I certainly understand your reservations with regard to changing a template which is used elsewhere. The Rambling Man (talk) 19:58, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Well, I quite like the way it looks, but other than that, no. J Milburn (talk) 20:05, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, my sandbox has a very first stab at an accessible table. We can tweak fonts and colours and things for "visual appeal", but this table will be accessible to screen readers and presents those who don't use a screen reader with identical information. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:06, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Is it not possible to fix the track list template itself? Ucucha (talk) 20:08, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
That would be the ideal solution of course. It's quite intricately coded and I am no expert. Besides that, there's a general grumpy feeling towards changes purely made for accessibility which may have subtle changes for the majority of users (usually based on IDONTLIKEIT). If we could find someone prepared to do that, it would be perfect. The Rambling Man (talk) 20:13, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the alt text, JM. The table is probably less daunting than it looks. The templates {{Track listing}} and {{Track listing/Track}} are editprotected, so I've made copies in my userspace and edited them to show the changes that could be made. This shows (1) changing the headline into a caption and (2) adding column scope to the existing column headers. This shows how to make the Title into a row header and give it row scope. This shows where to add the 'plainrowheaders' class to restore normal formatting to the title cells if required. Caution: I've not had time to test those changes, so they need to be trialled before anybody thinks about implementing them. To be honest, with only three columns, the row headers don't offer much improvement for the visually impaired, so although it's best practice and sets a good example, I wouldn't worry if the row headers were not implemented in this case. Also the caption is redundant when the table immediately follows a section heading (as it usually does), so that makes the caption implementation much less crucial. Long story short, the big, cheap gain is adding column scope to the existing column headers, and I really would recommend doing that a.s.a.p. Hope that helps, --RexxS (talk) 23:10, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by GrahamColm 10:43, 2 March 2012 [14].

Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Virgin Mary

Nominator(s): ♫GoP♫TCN 16:33, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Let me present you an article about the largest Russian Catholic church. The Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Virgin Mary survived the Revolution, WWI, and WWII. During that time, it was used for other purposes, but finally, after the fall of the Soviet Union, it was reconstructed and reconsecrated, and it is nowadays an active church.

The article just recently passed the second Good Article Nomination, it was copyedited by User:Binksternet, User:Malleus Fatuorum, User:GiacomoReturned, User:Gandydancer, User:Mark Arsten, User:Jimfbleak, User:Wehwalt, and others during the mainpage appearance. Thanks again to anyone who assisted! :) It is a WikiCup nomination.--♫GoP♫TCN 16:33, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose. I just listed this article as GA quality, but it needs more expansion to become FA. For instance, it has nothing about the conflict with Eastern Orthodox leaders who did not want to have the cathedral restored, who did not appreciate Roman Catholics regaining a toehold in what they consider their territory: Moscow. There were Orthodox protests in 2002 but they are not summarized in the article. Binksternet (talk) 17:16, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Actually, there were no riots between those denominations. Of course the Orthodox criticized this decision, but after a while they have to forfeit anyway. I am not sure what 2002 protest you have in your mind, and I am not sure if they were influential and if we need to include this information on this article, as they could be just minor disputes. I only know one notable critical decision, but between the Russian Orthodox Church and Hinduism. But maybe I find something you have proposed. ♫GoP♫TCN 21:25, 30 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • The sense of "protests" I intended was not "riots" but publicised vocal and written complaints, non-violent activism against the Roman Catholic expansion signified by the restoration of the cathedral. Binksternet (talk) 16:17, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • Ugh, why do we need this information? I believe it is way too off-topic, and I was not able to find such information; maybe I have better luck at the archives in Moscow and St. Petersburg. But I have no intention to travel only to find a few information. With the 2002 disputes, do you mean the signing of the "Venice Declaration of Environmental Ethics"? But I don't see why it should affect this church, but Alexy II just critized this decision. I assume it has nothing to do with this article.--♫GoP♫TCN 16:48, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I am striking my 'oppose' vote. I was mistaken in thinking that there was more missing content. The past friction between the Eastern Orthodox people and the Roman Catholics was not focused on the cathedral. Binksternet (talk) 00:11, 3 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • CommentsSupport: The article does not actually look too bad; it's quite nice. But do not fully trust my remark as I have never read an article about churches nor have I been to one in quite some time. Brackets around ellipses are not necessary and are better removed. In fact, the "[...] [Every detail]" seems a bit redundant and probably does not even need ellipses as the "[Every detail]" takes the place of all that is omitted from the source. —WP:PENGUIN · [ TALK ] 21:01, 31 January 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Leaning to support with a few concerns (this article was really well done, by the way):
  • "Bearing in mind the council's requirements, on 16 May 1895 the parish purchased a 10 hectare site on Malaja Grusinskaja street" - a bit awkward with the date right there, but I won't mind if it is left unchanged.
  • "Groundbreaking was in 1899, but construction did not start until 1901 and continued until 1911." - could be tightened, maybe to "Groundbreaking was in 1899, and construction took place from 1901 to 1911." Now, you also don't have to use the word "until" twice.
  • Reworded
  • "The construction cost was 290,000 rubles in gold (roughly US$197,000,000 as of 2012). Much of the cost was donated by members of the Polish parish of Moscow. More funding came from Catholic parishes throughout Russia, Poland and Belarus." - these two sentences are a bit short, so you could connect them maybe? "The construction cost was 290,000 rubles in gold (roughly US$197,000,000 as of 2012), much of which was donated by members of the Polish parish of Moscow and Catholic parishes throughout Russia, Poland and Belarus."?
  • Reworded
  • "Observers that argue for an earlier construction date state that they were damaged during World War II and left dismantled for some time." - "state" would be past tense, wouldn't it? Correct me if I'm wrong, though.
  • Yes, it should be simple past. Changed.
  • Per MOS, nbsps should be added before roman numerals, such as in "Pope John Paul II" and "Alexy II".
  • Added

Comment, on a very quick glance, I couldn't find anything to complain about :) SandyGeorgia (Talk) 17:00, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Well I do. It's a page with no conclusion and finale; it needs a "wrapping up" at the end to be a well written page. I have copyedited it, and it's a very interesting page, but everything needs a intro, information and conclusion. Giacomo Returned 19:20, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As Wikipedia is a digital, and not a paper encyclopedia, there is no real "start" or "end". Wikipedia is not the ultimate encyclopedia with every piece of knowledge. Or maybe I incorrectly understand you; how about you give me an example of what you mean?--♫GoP♫TCN 19:33, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Just basic rules of writing, one introduces the subject (the lead) then, then presents all the information in an understandalble form (chronologically/poltically or whatever depending on te subject) and then conclude by drawing together all the strings mentioned in the above and referred to in the lead. You cannot just finish a well written page by saying ".....(named after the patron saint of archbishop Tadeusz Kondrusiewicz), "Anniversary-2000" and "St. Victor" (named after the patron saint of Bishop Wiktor Skworc).[1][2]." As it is, the page just stops in midflow, it does not end. Giacomo Returned 19:52, 5 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Giacomo, I removed the brackets from the last sentence of the last section. I am still not sure how to "end" this article. The last sentence of the lead is about the listing, but unfortunately there is not much information about its legacy or reception. What I could do is to reinstate the organ disposition, but one user said it was unnecessary. Feel free to discuss this. Regards.--♫GoP♫TCN 11:43, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry, I am not expressing myslef very well; the page needs a final chapter/section (like in a book) uniting all the loose threads together - make a new final section and say what is going on there today (steal from other sections if necessary) - relate any plans for the future - you can even mention resident priests, numbers of the congregation - all that sort of thing - just leave the page on a positive note. Giacomo Returned 20:34, 6 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I can see where Giano's coming from - often we have a "Popular Culture" or "cultural depiction" section. In this case it might be a "cultural significance/legacy" section - has there been a revival in catholicism in Russia in the past 10 years? Is this church seen as an icon? Has it been promoted or discussed by the pontiff? Some of the material from the "Renovation and reconsecration" section might be expanded upon and placed in a "legacy/revival/cultural significance" section - has the pope been since 2002? How many times etc. I think this is doable and would be a fine way to end the article. Casliber (talk · contribs) 02:24, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • As I said, there is not much information available. I am still not sure how to build such a section, as its reception was mentioned throughout the text. has there been a revival in catholicism in Russia in the past 10 years? No, there was no revival in Catholicism in Russia; quite the opposite: because of conflicts between the Russian Orthodox Church and the Catholic Church, there were logically no revivals (see also Roman Catholicism in Russia). Is this church seen as an icon? No, as far as I know; mainly because Catholicism is a minority denomination in Russian, and the church was only for a few years active, among other issues. Has it been promoted or discussed by the pontiff? see my first response; no, the church itself was not discussed (I am not sure what you exactly mean?) but the relation between the ROC. has the pope been since 2002? No; Pius XII never visited Russia; John Paul II never visited Russia despite expressing a desire; Benedixt XVI has not visited Russia yet. So I can't imagine the final section; maybe you could help somehow?--♫GoP♫TCN 10:03, 7 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I find it extraordinary that we have no rules to minimise this unreadable clutter at the top of so many articles on foreign places and subjects. Here we have a good example of why some or all of the garbage needs to be footnoted or appear further down—not interrupting with more than three lines between the opening item (the subject) and the second item ("is"). I've indented to show the lineage against the infobox.

""The Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Virgin Mary (Russian: Собор Непорочного Зачатия Пресвятой Девы Марии Sobor Neporotschnovo Sachatiya Presvyatoj Devy Marii, in colloquial speech sometimes Костёл/Kostyol or Кирха/Kirkha – "the Catholic church") is a neo-Gothic church that serves as the cathedral of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Moscow.

The cyrillic scripts are in the Russian WP; that is why we have it. There's a quick link to their article at the left, if any English-speaker wants to see the cyrillic script. Funnily enough, we're not taught cyrillic at grade school. And why we need that and a transliteration of it in roman script, all aclutter at the start, eludes me. I look forward to the time when en.WP matures and can start an article thus:

The Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Virgin Mary is a neo-Gothic church that serves as the cathedral of the Roman Catholic Archdiocese of Moscow.

... with either a footnoted or the information in a less privileged place than in the first four lines of the lead. Ah, now I'm engaged and know what it is withough hunting through a jungle. Tony (talk) 05:11, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree and I'll back you on that, Tony1, but in the right venue. This FAC discussion is not the place. Binksternet (talk) 05:57, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I removed the last part in the brackets. However, I must disagree with you to remove the original name in cyrillic; "Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception of the Holy Virgin Mary" is just a translation, so it is an inofficial name (as beside the Russian name there is no correct one for this church). The transliterated title is, logically, important for those who do not understand cyrillic. Furthermore, you are also incorrect that it is from the Russian Wikipedia, but from the German (which is a Good Article). Regards. --♫GoP♫TCN 11:13, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Also, as this is a Russian church, and not located in an English-speaking country, we should use the official name in cyrillic. The English title is just there for people who don't understand cyrillic, but still want to know its name meaning. So we could basically move it to the cyrillic title, but many won't like the idea. Regards.--♫GoP♫TCN 11:18, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
"as this is a Russian church, and not located in an English-speaking country, we should use the official name in cyrillic." ... errrr ... why? This is the English-language WP, not the Russian-language WP. I can cope with a short cyrillic string, but not an enormous, three-line interruption between the first and second items in the opening sentence. It's almost unreadable. The full cyrillic article is a click away, to the left. No other WP puts this enormous amount of unreadaable gobbledy at the opening. This is what the Russian WP inserts for St. Paul's Cathedral, for example: (англ. St. Paul's Cathedral). Your reduction of the cyrillic clutter and the transliteration in this nomination is welcome, but begs the question of why we allow editors to max out this valuable space at the top of an article with as much unreadable script and foreign-language transliteration as they can jam in. It is past a joke. Tony (talk) 11:46, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
But the English Wikipedia is the biggest worldwide; the English language is the most spoken public language, enwp has more than 3 million articles; many readers are from foreign countries, including Russia. How about now?--♫GoP♫TCN 13:28, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
All the more reason the Russian WP might be inclined to clutter the first four lines of its articles with three or four lines of English right at their openings. But they don't. Because it's rude to their readers. It completely dissipates the impact of the opening. And look, to the left a few centimetres in the English-language article (well, supposedly English-language): a link to the Russian article, complete with all of the cyrillic text you could ever want—that's why we have the links to the other WP articles to the left, isn't it: for Russian-speakers, whether native or non-native. This site is for those who want to read about the topic in English. There seems to be some objection to either (1) clicking to the native-language article if cyrillic text does mean more than a jumble to you; and/or (2) footnoting the gobbledy. What could possibly be wrong with a footnote—at least of most of the interruption, if you really can't bear to have no decorative script shoved into the opening sentence—to save the ruination of the first four lines for those who weren't privileged enough to have training in the Russian language? Tony (talk) 15:08, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
(ec) I think you are viewing an older version. I moved the cyrillic name to the infobox. I believe it is better as footnoting the clause. Just my personal taste, but let's see how others think. Regards.--♫GoP♫TCN 15:13, 12 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support I participated in a peer review of this article earlier, and all of the issues I spotted have been dealt with. The subsequent reviews and improvements by more experienced reviewers have only improved the article, I'm confident it meets the WP:WIAFA criteria. Mark Arsten (talk) 17:37, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. The article has improved to FA level. Binksternet (talk) 19:10, 16 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Thanks for your supports. What do you think about Giacomo's proposal to add a finishing section for stability?--♫GoP♫TCN 10:23, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I'm looking at St. Michael's Golden-Domed Monastery (a Featured Article about another religious building in the former Soviet Union) right now, and that ends with a section on the building's architecture, so I don't think the current organization of this article should hold it up from promotion. It might still be a good idea to take a stab at closing the article differently, not sure that I could offer any good suggestions on how to close it though. Splitting the current use out of the history section and putting it at the end is the only idea that comes to mind, like in Stanford Memorial Church? Mark Arsten (talk) 21:13, 17 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • The last section of the Stanford church article mainly tells which denomination this church belongs to, the last section deals with weddings, church music and masses. I don't think any weddings take place in this cathedral; as for the church music and masses, this is mentioned throughout the text, so I don't think a new, final section is necessary.--♫GoP♫TCN 13:55, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - I have read through again, and made a couple of copyedits - it would be nice to have some sort of legacy section but agree with what GOP stated above - as such, if we can't construct one then it isn't a deal-breaker. Something could be said for keeping the structure as is, which is chronology then description, which a legacy section might not slot well in at the end. Anyway, a nice read....Casliber (talk · contribs) 13:18, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note - I have taken the liberty of spot-checking the sources in Russian, and found no problems. Could someone provide an image review, paying particular attention to Freedom of panorama? Graham Colm (talk) 16:25, 18 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment The title change by the nominator last month, removing the " , Moscow", was unwise and should be changed back. The article has a hatnote, and there are loads of other cathedrals, with loads of local languages, with this basic name. Given the unfamiliarity of the building outside (and even inside?) Russia, the vagaries of translation and the use of short names, the current title is both ambiguous and unhelpful for the reader. Johnbod (talk) 13:39, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I had forgotten I moved it. Your only rationale was "This is the only cathedral article with that name at the moment" which, if it is true, is only so in an extremely narrow way. Moving to Oppose for now as no FA should have a clearly ambiguous name. Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception has no less than 35 entries, and yes, each one of them refers to the "Immaculate Conception of the Holy Virgin Mary". At least 21 of them are in English-speaking countries and no doubt many have fuller formal names. A google search strongly suggests that the current name is not even the WP:COMMONNAME in English - plain "Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception" is more popular, and there are "Blessed Virgin"s and "Most Holy Virgin Mary"s also. Johnbod (talk) 14:32, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Although I disagree with you, I just moved the page to Cathedral of the Immaculate Conception (Moscow). Note there are different Conceptions, such as Saint Anne's, so actually it was correct. Regards.--♫GoP♫TCN 15:10, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Ok, Oppose removed, thanks. The ", Moscow" would have better but whatever. There is only one Immaculate Conception - there was a legend that St Anne was herself the subject of a virgin birth but this is very different, & the idea was condemmed by the Catholic church centuries ago, & never made headway in any other Christian church. I hope I will have time to review the article fully. Johnbod (talk) 15:49, 19 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the French church in the first paragraph of "History" appears to be misspelled (it should be "Saint Louis des Français"), but I couldn't find its name mentioned in the cited source. Could the nominator clarify? Ucucha (talk) 00:11, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I corrected the name, although you can also write "c" instead of a "ç". The source uses a short name, and on its homepage it is called "Saint-Louis-de-Français". See also [15]--♫GoP♫TCN 09:44, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment by Malleus Fatuorum. Picking up on Giano's point above about the missing conclusion, what I think is missing is a concluding "Present-day" section or similar, to round the story off. The final paragraph of the lead tells us something about the cathedral's current use, but strictly speaking the lead ought not to include material not covered elsewhere in the article; rather it should be a summary of the whole article. Malleus Fatuorum 21:35, 23 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Mark Karsten was so nice to create this section. (Thanks Karsten! :))--♫GoP♫TCN 17:10, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note - An image review is still needed, and a response to the remaining questions and comments. I have requested an image review on the WT:FAC page. Graham Colm (talk) 10:06, 26 February 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comments regarding criterion three:
    • I understand there may have been concerns regarding FoP: Russia indeed does not have sufficiently free FoP; however, as Tomasz Bohdanowicz-Dworzecki died in 1920, the building would be expected to have fallen into the public domain (pma 70). No issues in that regard.
    • File:Catholic Cathedral Moscow Concept.jpg: the source does not attribute Bohdanowicz-Dworzeck as author. What is the basis for that claim and the related support for the pma 70 tag? If it were, for example, an artist's sketch based on Bohdanowicz-Dworzeck's "blueprints," it could have a separate copyright. Source, however, does appear to establish (if only implicitly) that the image was published before 1.1.1923, which would make the image PD in the US (the only jurisdiction about which Wikipedia is concerned) regardless of authorship; accordingly, it may be advisable to change the tag and to relocate the image to Wikipedia (as Commons requires an image to be PD in both the US and country of origin; image may well be PD in Russia in truth, but support therefor is not currently present).
    • No other issues noted. Эlcobbola talk 17:01, 1 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
  1. ^ Cite error: The named reference procatholic was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
  2. ^ Cite error: The named reference architektur was invoked but never defined (see the help page).
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