Content deleted Content added

Inline

Revision as of 03:08, 15 August 2017

Welcome to the science section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

skip to bottom

Select a section:

Shortcut

WP:RD/S

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

How can I get my question answered?

Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
Note:
- We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
- We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
- We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
- We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

August 11

Why do vanilla ice cream manufacturers have to color the vanilla ice cream?

I think vanilla ice cream is supposed to be white. I made vanilla ice cream in chemistry classes, using two methods. One method was to lower the temperature of the ice in the plastic bag with salt by shaking. Another method was to use liquid nitrogen on the cream. The only ingredients used were half and half cream and vanilla extract. The finished result looked white. Why can't ice cream manufacturers just make the ice cream look white? Why do they add annatto for color? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 01:46, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Because pure white is a very fragile tone, set off by the tiniest portion of a color, like in Aquarelle starting on a clean white paper. In contrast adding very cheap beta-Carotene for color causes an orange tone which is most appealing and a very good disguise especially for tone setoff's naturally caused by aging (Rancidification) which also usually causes an orange tone. --Kharon (talk) 02:46, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Milk looks white. Ice cream is derived from milk. So, why is it cheaper to add a color than to keep it the way it is? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 03:10, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Its not cheaper than not adding anything ofcourse but beta-Carotene is very cheap and very little of it is needed to get the orange on top. They simply dont want to sell white ice cream for multiple reasons and add beta-Carotene for multiple reasons. You cant make ice cream more appealing and cheap any other way. --Kharon (talk) 03:34, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note: Real vanilla isn't white, but is rarely used in common ice-cream today, to reduce production costs (more than retail cost). Likewise, real cream is only used in the costly brands, but was also traditionally off-white. If the goal was to make the icecream very white, there would be other options like titanium dioxide. —Paleo Neonate – 03:39, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by "costly brands" and "real cream"? In NZ, Tip Top (ice cream) the retail price where I live in Auckland for a 2L tub of ice cream tends to be $4.50-5.50 although occasionally is available for $4. This would be considered by most to be ordinary ice cream, not the real premium or fancy ones which come in smaller containers and tend to be twice as much or more per L. It's also sold as ice cream meaning it I presume meets the legal requirement of [1] "consisting of not less than 100g/kg of milk fat". (Tip Top also has 55% of the market share in NZ [2], not just from their tubs of course.) By comparison, Much Moore (formerly Kiwi) Marvels brand products are generally $3.80-$4.50 for 2L. Some products under their Marvels brand are ice cream, some are frozen dessert (i.e. either don't have any cream, or don't have enough to meet the legal requirement to be called ice cream in NZ/Australia). Some cheaper products which are I believe all frozen dessert are generally $3.29-$3.79. The Much Moore 'premium' range, which is still just sold in a normal 2L tub is generally $4.30-$5 (sometimes, more often than Tip Top $4) and I believe is all ice cream. Other products tend to be similar price ranges and many of them are ice creams. Admittedly not all ice creams use something which may be called cream in their production, e.g. I believe the Much Moore Marvels range uses milk solids but the point remains most or all of the fat is milk fat. In any case, Tip Top ones do say they use cream e.g. [3]. Some may also use thickeners for various reasons. Nil Einne (talk) 07:28, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Forgot to mention that Tip Top is of course nowadays owned by Fonterra Co-operative Group one of the largest dairy countries in the world (and who by their dairy coop nature are mostly focused in dairy products, unlike say Nestlé which is a general food and beverage company, or likewise Danone) , so it's not particularly surprisingly they generally use cream or otherwise use milk fat. Nil Einne (talk) 15:30, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the vanilla ice cream I've seen is cream-colored, which is to say very pale yellow. On occasion I have seen the heavy yellow vanilla, which is associated here with cheap store brands. Is the yellow ice cream you guys get the norm outside the US? Abductive (reasoning) 06:23, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Vanilla is cream-coloured; that is, it's not pure white. I wouldn't refer to it as yellow. Maybe you're confusing it with the unique NZ variety of ice cream called hokey pokey. Akld guy (talk) 09:26, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Note that French vanilla ice cream adds egg yolks, making it more yellow: [4]. This is considered a premium version, so it's not surprising cheaper vanilla ice creams may be made to imitate it. StuRat (talk) 16:16, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Vanilla ice cream is generally yellowish in the UK. Only the very cheap stuff is white. Wall's Ice Cream is probably the market leader here; it lists "Colours (Annatto, Curcumin)" amongst the ingredients, but no actual vanilla. Alansplodge (talk) 17:22, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Interesting. There seems to be regional variations. Abductive (reasoning) 18:54, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Metabolism of high-fiber food

I don't understand how dietary fiber affects metabolism and how it affects the stated calories in package labeling in the US.. Consider a bean dish (Gefen Cholent Mix) in which one portion is supposed to provide 70 kilocalories of energy, with 0 fat, 23 grams of carbohydrate, which includes 13 grams of dietary fiber, and 8 grams of protein, per the package's nutritional label. Each gram of carbohydrate should provide 4 kilocalories, as should each gram of protein. The 31 grams of combined carb and protein should provide 124 kilocalories rather than the stated 70 kilocalories. If the 13 grams of fiber (presumably not metabolized by humans) are deducted from the 23 grams of carb, then there would be 18 *4=72 kilocalories of energy per serving., 3% more than the stated amount. Would 23 grams of carbohydrate be converted into glucose in the bloodstream. or would only 10 grams of carbohydrate be converted into glucose? This would seem to be a big deal vis a vis the amount of glucose which enters the bloodstream after such a high fiber meal. Edison (talk) 03:52, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's presumably because, as stated in Food energy#Nutrition labels, energy is estimated, and obviously the labeling authorities do not care for few % difference, as they themselves use an official table were, for foodstuff, 4 cal = 17 kJ instead of 16.736 kJ that a physicist would use, that's a 1.5% difference. Add some rounding issues and tolerated variations in content: things will quickly add up to 3% difference you noticed.

Gem fr (talk) 10:05, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Calories are generally rounded off to the nearest 5 Calories (kcal), which means that for any food greater than 60 Calories (kcal) the 3% would be statistically insignificant, as it would have been rounded off. In the example above, 2 kcal is within the rounding, so it was just rounded off. Statistically speaking 72 and 70 are identical when you're rounding to the nearest 5. --Jayron 32 14:50, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fiber is metabolized by humans, the USDA gives a value of 2 kcal per gram. Abductive (reasoning) 06:25, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That depends on if it's soluble fiber or insoluble fiber. StuRat (talk) 16:20, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Presumably the 2 kcal/g is an average...Abductive (reasoning) 18:52, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, the wiki article says that what matters is whether the fibers are broken down by bacteria and then absorbed by the body, the energy content is then attributed to whatever the body will absorb and metabolize. However, the breakdown of fibers in the gut also releases energy and this is not accounted for at all. Count Iblis (talk) 19:29, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Eat fewer Calories to lose the weight or eat the same amount or greater Calories to build muscle and thus increase metabolism?

On one hand, people recommend to the general public to eat less. On the other hand, athletes are recommended to eat more to complement the intensive physical activities. Okay, what happens if an overweight person doesn't want to lose weight so he eats the same amount of food (or more, not less) and adds an intensive strength-training and aerobic exercise (such as doing push ups and running) to nourish muscle growth? 140.254.70.33 (talk) 16:32, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

He has better health outcomes. Well, possibly not him, because of individual variability, but if you got some statistically large enough sample of such people, a significant portion of them would have a better quality of life.[5] --Jayron 32 17:38, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You have to note here that being able to burn a significant additional amount of calories compared to the total calorie intake requires being very fit to begin with. E.g. a 60 kg man running fast for an hour will burn roughly 1000 Kcal more due to this exercise. But you won't be able to do this unless you have excellent cardio fitness. Strength training burns only a small amount of energy. That's why body-builders do some cardio training besides the massive amount of strength training. Count Iblis (talk) 17:58, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A doctor I do research with began his research with an interest in football and studied obese linemen. They are clearly obese, yet they exercise extensively. So, are they healthy? No. Obese NFL players tend to have cardiometabolic syndrome. After retirement, that quickly leads to hypertension, diabetes, and hyperlipidemia, all of which quickly lead to life-ending problems such as congestive heart failure or renal disease. There is a lot (more than you'd think) research on obesity in the NFL, which gets right to the issue of obesity and exercise. Check scholar.google.com. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 19:31, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I would say that they were not obese when they were athletes, as then the weight was mostly muscle. But, yes, ex-athletes do tend to continue to eat as much, but get less exercise, turning that muscle into fat, at which point they become obese.

As for them being "clearly obese", that sounds like you are only looking at weight, not muscle and fat percentages, although there are some "athletes", like sumo wrestlers, who really are obese. StuRat (talk) 21:55, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Indeed. Count Iblis (talk) 23:37, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is preseason. Watch an NFL game. That flab on the linemen is not muscle. It is fat. They are obese. 71.85.51.150 (talk) 00:40, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it is possible that they get "out of shape" between seasons, then "shape up" at the start of the next season. One problem with massive muscles is they take massive exercise just to maintain. Otherwise, they are replaced by fat. StuRat (talk) 01:05, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I can tell, the 71 IP is not suggesting that linemen have fat not muscle only preseason. I'm not sure why they mentioned preseason but I think they're suggesting perhaps people have forgotten what linemen look like since it's preseason so they should go back to a (non preseason) NFL game. Even if the IP was suggesting that the flab on linemen was fat and not muscle only during pre season, I seem no reason to think that is correct.

I'm under the impression the NFL is a professional sport where atheletes are often paid multimillion dollar salaries. I'm not sure if those salary ranges apply to linemen but at a minimum I'm assuming their positions are still highly competitive. In general, while professional athletes may lose a bit of fitness during the early parts of an offseason, they can't afford to let themselves go as badly as you suggest because they won't be able to recover in time for the season and will find themselves not very popular with the people who can significantly affect their careers like coaches.

According to [6]/[7]/[8]/[9] the average body fat percentage for offensive and defensive linemen was 24.8%. Okay this is for high school and NCAA football players and was during an off-season training season and high school was 26.1% and college was 22.9%. However none of the authors expressed any concerns these players had really let themselves go so they weren't looking at a good sample. (I'd also note that when in the off-season is unspecified. Even if you believe that athletes can get very bad during the first month or so of the off-season, you've surely, I hope, got to realise a month before the season starts athletes need to be close to their peak condition.)

This [10]/[11]/[12] looked at NFL players and suggests offensive line has an average body fat percentage 25.1%. It also says:

The only exception was observed with the offensive line, where values for BMI were higher, accompanied with the classification of ‘‘poor’’ in health estimation, but the %body fat still did not represent extreme values as noted by the BMI.

The extreme here is likely referring to the fact that BMI show them to severely obese category but clearly whether you want to call them obese or not their body fat percentage has reached levels not considered healthy in the general case. Again this was during a summer training camp, prior to the start of the season. I'm not sure how far away the season was, but the authors seem to have similar thoughts to mine:

As such, we felt that each player would be in top condition after an off-season conditioning program and summer minicamps.

Next there's [13] which has results for the 2006 – 2013 NFL Combine testing using Bod Pod and gives 24.6% average body fat for offensive line. Admitedly I'm confused what the source for these figures actually is since that says it's from “Current Assessment of Body Composition in Sport” but I can't find that source. Other places says it's in Sports Med 42(3) but the closests thing there is [14]/[15] "Current Status of Body Composition Assessment in Sport". Anyway I would guess it's just a typo or maybe the title was renamed after pre-release. But more importantly, AFAICT that source doesn't have such figures nor does it have any additional data. And considering it was published in 2012 it would seem weird for it to have 2013 figures. Still the BodPod is definitely used as part of the combine [16] so probably they are somewhere.

Anyway assuming we can trust in-thinair.com to accurately report the figures, wherever they were published, I presume this means the NFL Scouting Combine so technically this is off season too. But considering what the NFL Scouting Combine is for....

Either the athletes go 'you know what, the combine is coming up but I don't have to be in peak condition because it's offseason so let's not worry that this moment could make or break my life and if I was only able to keep it I'll be much more impressive since after all at least the next dude will have the same attitude as me so while I may not be better than them even though I could be, I won't be worse'. And the coaches, scouts etc say 'hey that guy is fat, but I'm sure he just let himself go in the offseason and will regain it over the next few months, let's not worry about our experience or the whole purpose of this combine; you know as that person on the RDS said, it's normal for people to let themselves go so badly out of season.'

Or these people are in top condition for assessment during the combine. (Of course it's possible that being fat is seen as impressive by observers during the combine, but is actually bad while playing but this seems to make further weird assumptions.)

Nil Einne (talk) 06:30, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, I noticed [17] in my research but it doesn't directly relate to the body fat percentage issue although I just noticed it does mention an absolute weight limit at college level which may affect the earlier figures. Looking a bit more it seems that the size of linemen is a concern in both American [18] and Canadian [19] football. I'd note that the middle source claims as those the earlier links, as well as the middle source just now both claim the linemen size has significant increased over the past few decades. Although interesting [20] it could be going down again, for reasons unrelated to health concerns. Also about Bod Pod and similar measurements, I should mention that one thing the Sports Med source does say backed by an RS is is that such devices tend to underestimate body fat for college football players (I assume this is American, or maybe Canadian since I don't think anywhere else would refer to college football players) by an average of 2%. So assuming the above figures are unadjusted, they may be a little on the low side. Although an average of 2% needs to be taken with caution if we're talking about people with fairly different body types depending on their precise position, which the differing body fat percentages suggest is the case. 07:05, 12 August 2017 (UTC)

Maintaining that level of muscle mass during the off-season would require that they exercise just as much as they do during the regular season, which is basically a full-time job. So, it's not exactly being lazy to not keep up. Do you do the same amount of work when on vacation as when at work ? StuRat (talk) 16:26, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I mentioned that it was the preseason to indicate that it is very easy to find a video or even a photo of an NFL lineman right now. Look at Dontari Poe. There is a photo of him, during the season, when he is "in shape" right on the page. Look at his lower abdomen. That is not muscle bulging out. That is fat. Yes, he does have a lot of muscle. He also has a lot of abdominal fat. That is the norm for linemen. They have a lot of abdominal fat. You have to be very stubbornly ignorant to look at the photo of Dontari Poe and think that his spare tire is all made of muscle. I would like to have more examples right here on Wikipedia, but I've noticed that there is a distinct lack of uniform photos for linemen. I checked Albert Haynesworth, Jerome Bettis, Dan Wilkinson, etc... I didn't even go after other positions, such as Jared Lorenzen, who I believe is the most obese quarterback ever signed in the NFL. I feel that only someone who has never watched an NFL game can claim that linemen are not obese. However you want to measure obesity, when your belly is hanging inches over your belt, that is fat, not muscle. I'm not saying it to fat shame. I am trying to point out that those players are exercising daily. They are athletic. They have a lot of muscle. But, they are still obese and they still have obesity-related diseases. 71.85.51.150 (talk) 18:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

They exercise, but not like this. Count Iblis (talk) 18:50, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It may be interesting to note that Dontari Poe (the example above) is being offered half a million dollars to reduce body fat with the Falcons this year. He reportedly made the first $100k so far. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 14:07, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

See an endocrinologist who specializes in weight loss/body mass index. There are various metabolic disorders as 209 noted that you cannot self diagnose, and we certainly cannot diagnose. He can recommend a nutritionist and medication. Then folow his advice on exercise, under a licensed trainer. Don't ask for medical advice here. μηδείς (talk) 21:47, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is any new research still done with optical microscopes?

If not, what was the last time it was? Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 17:26, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

This very day, I'm quite sure my wife used one. She's a forensic scientist who does microscopy as a daily part of her job. She uses a regular old, binocular optical microscope fitted with a camera to record what she sees for evidence. The McCrone Research Institute is probably one of the major players in microscopy in the U.S., and still does work with all sorts of work with light microscopy. So the last time they did active research in the field is quite likely right now. --Jayron 32 17:35, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Probably 95% or research in medicine, biology. geology, etc is done with optical microscopes. --AboutFace 22 (talk) 19:19, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

They certainly are important, but that number is too high for medicine. Don't forget about the vast amounts of work done with molecular biology techniques, and things like Western blots, flow cytometry etc etc. I know a fair few people in neuroscience who never get near a microscope. They are a minority, for sure, but they are more than 5%. Even I, a regular microscope user in neuroscience, don't do 95% of my research on them, I do too many qPCRs for that! Fgf10 (talk) 23:46, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

We used light microscopes daily in my old lab, for everything from insect ID to counting pollen. I think maybe you are undervaluing how useful it is to see little things across many, many fields of inquiry. Nobody in my old lab ever published new research specifically about a new thing that they found with a light microscope, but they certainly published new research that could not have been done without a microscope.

If you want an example of new things recently discovered with a light microscope, check out this [21] coverage of a 2013 Science paper about naturally occurring gearing mechanisms. Sure, the press photo is from an electron scope, but that's just because it is easier to see, looks cool and they had the money to do it. These features are visible under relatively low power, as shown by the video at that link, which is just a normal light scope. This is top-notch, ground-breaking research that basically amounts to "We looked at this small thing with a light microscope and found something really cool that we think all scientists should know about."

TL;DR: yes, lots of research is done every day with light microscopes, probably thousands of people are doing it as I type.SemanticMantis (talk) 19:41, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think you meant to link here : [22]

Very cool. ApLundell (talk) 22:55, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You are mistaken if you think that the light microscopy is some old and stagnant technology that has not changed for a long time. On the contrary new optical methods are actively being developed. Moreover some of them like the fluorescent microscopy earned their creators a Nobel prize. Ruslik_Zero 20:00, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You'll have to specify which optical microscope. In my neuroscience research, I use both phase contrast and epifluorescent optical microscopes essentially every day. I frequently use dissection microscopes, and pretty regularly use a confocal fluorescent microscope or two-photon microscope. Conventional bright field microscopy is not used much in my field, but certainly is in others. Take away my optical microscopes and 90% of my research is gone. Fgf10 (talk) 23:43, 11 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No one has mentioned that many a biological sample would be destroyed or ruined if they were prepared and placed in the vacuum of an electron microscope. Also, did Nikolaus Pevsner have to examine every brick? One uses the right tools for the job. Aspro (talk) 01:00, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

August 12

Finding out the Map Projection

Which map projection is used at this map of the European Inland Waterway Network?

--Baltimax (talk) 01:09, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Albers projection. Barely visible Latitude lines are round instead of the straight ones resulting in Mercator projections.--Kharon (talk) 03:19, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

How are you so sure it's Albers? Hundreds of projections have round or at least curved lines of latitude (and many other than Mercator have straight lines). 78.234.66.210 (talk) 17:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, see Map projection#Conic. But I don't think it's any conic projection as defined on that page. If you zoom in, particularly on the right-hand side where the longitude lines are farthest from vertical, and look carefully, you can see that when they cross the latitude lines they aren't exactly perpendicular. Really the best way to get a reliable answer would be to contact the UNECE office that issued the map and ask them. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 19:58, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Language loss

How fast can one lose a language? Back when I was in high school, I learned that Native Americans were forced to assimilate into White-American society. The teacher said that if one can't practice one's own language, then one can lose it in a few months. I personally started learning Spanish in 7th grade and moved all the way up to 12th grade and took two courses in college to fulfill a general education requirement. After the two classes, I hardly practiced Spanish, and somehow I still can remember Spanish words and the Spanish songs stuck in my head. SpanishDict may have a random word of the day, and somehow I'd know them. How is this possible? 50.4.236.254 (talk) 04:16, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

"A few months" is absurdly quick. You might get "rusty", but after returning to people speaking that language you would recall it quickly. However, the age of the person does matter. If you cut very young children off from their native language before it "sets", then they might indeed forget it. StuRat (talk) 04:19, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Agree with Stu. It is more a case of falling out of the 'habit' of using ones native tongue. There are plenty of anecdotal occurrences of people who fled as refugees to America during War II who thought they had forgotten their mother's tongue only to find during a visit to their homeland (after the fall of the Soviet Union and the reunification of Germany when travel there became easier) it took only two weeks to be talking fluently once more in the language they thought they had long forgotten. The mind is quite plastic at taking off line any memory banks that are currently not required and bring them back online again when circumstances change. Entheogenist find one of the characteristics of drugs like LSD and Ketamine is that they appear to bring all memory banks online -all at once. Yet, after daily doses, the mind adapts (is plastic) and takes them off line again and further dosses have no longer any psychedelic effect. This goes for physical skills as well. One may have not played a piano for many decades but with a little practice it all come back again. Even on those instruments that don't require depressing a key to hit a felt hammer onto strings stretched on a iron frame, in a wooden enclosure , which is all we had before MIDI. And we could still play them during a brownout or complete cut ! Aspro (talk) 10:44, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Or the classic case of riding a bicycle, which comes back to you after years of not riding. StuRat (talk) 12:55, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

To echo Aspro, I spoke Spanish to age four, along with my native English, since my parents both got by in it and we lived in Puerto Rico where I had a monolingual Spanish-speaking nanny and Texas, where my best friend was Mexican. When I was four-and-a-half, we moved to a town in NJ where the population were all third generation or more Europeans (mostly Irish and Italian) and I got odd looks and no response when I spoke Spanish to people, which led to a few teary incidents. I subsequently "lost" it.

When I was 18, I worked in a kitchen with Filipinos and Mexicans as I went to college. I told them to address me only in Spanish. With the help of 201 Spanish Verbs and my HS French I was basically fluent again in non-literary level Spanish within a few months, to the point of dreaming in it, and finding myself at a loss for an English word on a few occasions. μηδείς (talk) 16:52, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's interesting. My first language was Chinese, I spoke it till I was four and since then have only spoken English. I don't even remember ever having spoken Chinese, it would be interesting to try and learn it again. Dmcq (talk) 17:11, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

So it appear that the OP's teacher was just over simplifying things. Was interesting that μηδείς found herself lost for words at times. Think this was not so much 'words' as phrases. The ancient Greek's had a lovely phase that translates into English simply as potter against potter which referred to arguments that arise between two experts who both insist they are right – there is no English equivalent to express that. Also some of the French double negatives such as Je t'aime... moi non plus defeats my ability to translate in real-time. @ User talk:Dmcq. The big problem foreigners have, with learning Chines, is to developer an ear to for the tonal syllables in order to differentiate meaning. If you also have some musical training then getting up-to-speed again in Chines may be even an easier endeavour. Don't expect results over night but if that tonal pattern is still there in your brain’s neural network, then it will be easer to relearn. Aspro (talk) 18:22, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Just googled this about Chinese: Mandarin Chinese is a tonal language. Also, children who have a tonal language are also better at being pitch perfect when they become musicians like Vanessa-Mae. Aspro (talk) 19:23, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well I still have people wondering what my accent is and where I come from so perhaps the ear is still there too :) Dmcq (talk) 21:50, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if people who are tone deaf have difficulty speaking Chinese. StuRat (talk) 18:54, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Good question. They might be viewed upon in the same way that ~~dislektiks~~ ~~dieslettics~~ ~~dyslolectics~~ dyslexic's are treated in the west. We need an academic of tonal languages to comment on this. Even dyslexic's who have trouble with the written words have trouble sometimes with pronouncing words ~~write~~ right. Yet, mother nature appears to endows them with other gifts. Albert Einstein was a rotten speller in both German and English and history is littered with dyslexics who became very influential. With tonal languages it can get even funnier. Example: truck driver arrives to deliver his load. It can come out sounding “I am about to give birth”. Aspro (talk) 20:08, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ah yes, the Wide Berth of a Nation. :-) StuRat (talk) 20:37, 12 August 2017 (UTC) [reply]

What's called tone in tonal languages is not the same as the musical pitch of notes on a tuned instrument; it's about contour. We have this in English, but use it on a sentencial level, with normal declarations having a falling intonation, questions a rising intonation: "The book he wants is _here.." (fact) vs. "The book he wants is ^here?" (question). The word "really" Can have many different intonations:

Really? Really.

Really?!?! (doubt). Really! (exasperation) Really... (sarcasm).

These are all a matter of contour, not pitch. And notice that we do not mistake a woman's statement for a man's question just because her voice is higher pitched. μηδείς (talk) 20:44, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That reminds me of the time when I was studying Russian at university. One day during a tutorial, the tutor was asking us to translate English sentences into Russian, viva voce. The sentence I was given was "One day I would like to marry and have a couple of children". I said whatever rubbish I said, and both the tutor and a fellow student who was a native Ukrainian speaker and understood far more Russian than I, suddenly erupted into gales of laughter. They explained that I had said the Russian for "One day I would like to give birth to twins". :) But seriously, that was 3 years of pretty intensive Russian study in the late 1970s-early 80s, followed by only very sporadic use of the language thereafter (including having never been to Russia; although I did marry into a Russian-speaking family). To this day my Russian pronunciation is still fine, but I have lost a lot of vocabulary, and I never really did get verbs of motion (mainly because we were warned before we started learning them that they were difficult and some learners never understand them, so as a dutiful student I complied, which is a pity because in most ways I rebel and do the thing I am not expected to do). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:36, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@ Jack of Oz. As you spent so much time in learning this language why waist all that that effort. You might not know it but that there is a web-site called Википедия whom might welcome your input and thus you can improve your vocabulary. But be warned and take it from me, this is part of a org that insists that one follows unfathomable policies about what images and references one can use. No idea how this world wide international organization still exists (they don't pay their contributors anything). Yet, give it a try ;¬ ) Aspro (talk) 22:49, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The only time my efforts are a perfect waist is when dieting. StuRat (talk) 19:01, 14 August 2017 (UTC) [reply]

Ну, спасибо ... я думаю ... :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]}

спасибо Aspro (talk) 01:55, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Dmcq may find Mango Languages, a service available at my public library and may be available in his/hers, and HelloTalk, a chat app for Apple products, to learn new languages. Mango Languages may not be very useful, because it has preset sentences that require memorization and repetition. But HelloTalk may be more useful, because it is designed as a language-learning social app. The app will ask Dmcq to create a profile and set up a native language and learning language. If he/she wishes to learn Chinese, then s/he may speak with a person from China who is trying to learn English. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 22:10, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I once worked with someone from a European country who was stationed in the US for a year. As the end of the year approached, he said he was "starting to" forget some of his native language. It all came back once he went back home and was re-immersed in it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:14, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Dmcq: I found the Spanish returned with immersion. I wasn't "back in the home country", but I was working two or three shifts a week with back-of-the-house bi- or tri-lingual Spanish-speakers who were using Spanish as a lingua franca, and I told them to treat me as an equal and include me in their non-anglosphere. I also befriended several Mexican families, was proposed a marriage of convenience, and lived with Mexicans for about 6 months which was when the dreaming in Spanish and hesitating in English began. If you want to recover the Chinese, get a basic primer and some roommates who speak your previous dialect, or at least socialize with them heavily, and exclude English entirely from dialog. Any using English will cripple your attempt. μηδείς (talk) 20:22, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

What do you mean by "crippling your attempt"? I learned Spanish in an Anglophone environment, and I could read, write, speak, and listen at the elementary level in Spanish. Also, it seems unrealistic that English would be forbidden. If Chinese is only used with the roommates, then the Chinese-speaking roommates may start feeling worried that their own English is not improving. I don't think living with roommates is a good option. Living in China may be better, but Dmcq may need a job to pay the bills and feed himself/herself. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 20:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Non speako trollo. If you can bear to hear the truth you’ve spoken

Twisted by knaves to make a trap for fools....

--Rudyard Crippling

μηδείς (talk) 21:04, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@ User talk:50.4.236.254) Think what μηδείς was alluding to, was that by not talking in one's mother language at all, it removes the temptation to translate what one has heard into ones mother's tongue of what has been said and then have to converts ones reply back into the language one is attempting to learn. Fluency is quicker to come, by the processes of total immersion. Aspro (talk) 21:36, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I specifically addressed Dmcq's wondering whether he could "recall" the Chinese of his youth, not learn a new language de novo by taking classes. Fitty's response was simple contrarianism. I did not learn Spanish by taking classes, although I did buy the book on verbs (to better master the spoken preterite), did have an explicit knowledge of French, and did buy a dictionary. That lead to some laughs when I used highfalutin terms like vecindario for neighborhood when barrio was the informal standard. I asked the super of a building I wanted to move into in a Dominican area about the "vecindario", with the answer that "We cannot afford the luxury of vecindarios around here, we have only barrios. Perhaps your mercy should consider a skyscraper downtown?" (This was said jokingly, and I never used the term in speech again.) μηδείς (talk) 22:08, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I know immersion helps with language fluency. Speaking like a native is a different matter. But Medeis also suggested that one could get roommates and only speak the roommates' language. I don't think this is a practical suggestion, because the roommates in an Anglophone environment may want to practice more English. One way is to tutor each other. The Chinese native speaker teaches conversational Chinese, and the English speaker teaches English. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 21:58, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Aspro: Yes, the OP's teacher's comment seems overblown, but I doubt I was actively using any Spanish at five after six months of pure English. Of course, my parents spoke English at home, not the language that was to be "lost". I know that I also lost my strong Southern accent very fast at that time, because I did not get picked on for it at school.

I wish I could remember some of the terms I hesitated with in English at this time. I 'remember' that they were nouns, but this was three decades ago, and it may very well have been idiomatic expressions. I also had more difficulty when the French and Spanish conflicted, such as the lack of a spoken preterite in French, while Spanish makes huge use of the preterite/imperfect contrast, such as the past forms supe/sabia que (preterite/imperfect) which mean "I knew", but specifically I discovered that vs. I was aware that. I also often "made up" pseudospanish, like asking Donde esta la fontana? (which was understood, but responded to with Hay una fuente aqui) by assuming that French fontaine had a direct cognate, but Spanish uses fuente from Latin fons with no additional suffix. μηδείς (talk) 20:22, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Uhmm. Now having some hours to think about it, I did have problems with nouns when they applied to parts of the human body and bodily functions to a greater extent than with verbs and adjectives etc. which described those functions. Some words where OK in the school-yard but not OK at home.... and beyond. Which was a problem, since in one language some were OK yet, in other they where considered not OK which lead to adults to sometimes ask has the cat got your tongue? when I was not sure of the polite explanation in that language. But I can't remember any problems with very common nouns. You can bet though, I made up for that deficiency when I became a teenager and was never lost for something to say. Even, if I had to concatenate Latin, Greek and French into something that sounded impressive because I couldn’t think of anything better. Which might be the same reason μηδείς resorted to pseudospanish. The most important thing is to be able to communicate rather than be grammatically perfect – like wot I is now! Anyway the OP seems to have his question answered now. Aspro (talk) 00:16, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@OP, while personal anecdotes may be interesting, they are no substitute for scientific study. This phenomenon has been studied and there are plenty of references available. The Psycholinguistics pioneer Wallace Lambert devoted his entire career to topics such as this. He called it "subtractive bilingualism" and if I recall correctly, "Bilingualism and language acquisition" is a good read. The book First Language Attrition (Seliger & Vago, editors) is also a good read and contains chapters that deal directly with your question. I can recommend others if you are interested in reading for yourself what the experts have to say.--William Thweatt ^Talk^Contribs 22:57, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You're the only person who has answered the actual question instead of commenting on the personal anecdote in the OP with more personal anecdotes. This makes me happy.

50.4.236.254 (talk) 23:09, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Welcome back, User:Russell.mo. Thanks for the smiley. I remembered the Dublin IP address, but the "makes me happy meme" is strong with you. Here's a discussion of your antics a while back. μηδείς (talk) 04:29, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I don't know who in the world is User: Russell.mo. Next time, please ask for a CheckUser report. Also, I have read your discussions on the Reference Desk Talk Pages, and you repeatedly misidentify editors. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 04:37, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well since you now have had your question answered, perhaps you could tell us how fast one can lose a language? Dmcq (talk) 09:40, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I was referring to the sources. William Thweatt provides me the sources, which seem interesting and may lead me to the answer, 50.4.236.254 (talk) 11:05, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well since you don't actually have an answer yet, how about expanding on the question. Why do you want to know this or what will it do for you? Dmcq (talk) 12:25, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Because learning new stuff is cool. Knowing the right terminology to search for is helpful. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 16:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's a bit of a non-answer. This would just be another random fact rather than anything cool. I don't see it entitles you to any extent whatsoever to start complaining about people not giving you a reference to a scholarly work. If you had some decent reason it would enable people to tailor an answer, for instance a question about what isthe height of all the trees in a field with a reason, oh it's cool to know doesn't exactly excite. A reason like I want to know if any could fall on the house would give an entirely different answer. Another saying one is a botanist and are seeing how high beech trees grow would give another again. Dmcq (talk) 20:18, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is only a non-answer, because you reject the answer. I did answer, but you rejected it, probably because you didn't find the reason to be acceptable. I just like answers with links. Down below, I provided a link to high rising terminal, and I expect everyone to do the same. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 11:50, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

In Britain, amongst younger speakers, there is frequently rising intonation at the end of a sentence even when a question is not being asked. I believe this spread from the United States. 82.14.24.95 (talk) 14:53, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You must be referring to high rising terminal. The article says British people blame the youngsters' habit on watching too much Australian TV. 50.4.236.254 (talk) 16:45, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

High rising terminal is also a feature of Canadians' and New Zealanders' speech. Akld guy (talk) 21:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I saw a horrible scene in the US. A Caucasian man was the adoptive father of a Chinese girl of perhaps 5 years. In a store, she was pointing to things like newspapers and umbrellas and saying what seemed to be the Chinese words for them. He scolded her for daring to speak Chinese. Some adoptive parents take the other view and take their adopted Asian children to weekly classes in the culture and language of their birth nation. Edison (talk) 02:54, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Mottaphobia

(Inspired by the arachnophobia question above) A few questions about mottaphobia, to help me shed some light on this condition: (1) Does it tend to run in families? (2) Does it usually occur as a generalized phobia (fear of all butterflies and moths), or as a fear of 1 or more particular species thereof -- and if the latter, which species are the most likely to trigger this response? (Speaking for me personally, I'm perfectly OK with most butterfly species, but swallowtail butterflies totally creep me out!) And (3): How much comorbidity is there with other anxiety disorders (particularly with other animal phobias)? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:21B1:8CA4:6F9F:6132 (talk) 08:41, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder of the trailing wing parts of a swallowtail butterfly such as a Protographium marcellus remind you of the trailing legs of a wasp in flight: [23]. That might cause the reaction, especially if you've been stung. StuRat (talk) 13:03, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think it has to do with their large size (up to 8 inches or more!) more than anything else (although their shape and coloration does play a reinforcing role) -- their juveniles don't scare me as long as they're less than 4 inches or so in size. So, should I take this as evidence that swallowtails are more likely to cause this reaction than most other species? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:21B1:8CA4:6F9F:6132 (talk) 05:05, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You do realize that a juvenile butterfly is a caterpillar? The butterfly is the last instar of the organism, it does not molt or grow after appearing from the chrysalis: there are no little butterflies growing into bigger butterflies; it is an impossibility. μηδείς (talk) 15:32, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, I didn't know that! So what explains the wide variation in size, from 3-4 inches to 8 or more? 2601:646:8E01:7E0B:21B1:8CA4:6F9F:6132 (talk) 04:51, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Different species, different sizes. Size variation within the same species would depend on how well the catterpillar ate. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 09:11, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Also some species have a marked difference in size between males and females. Don't know if this applies to this species of swallowtails, though. See sexual dimorphism. StuRat (talk) 17:57, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Nearly all <randomgreekword>phobias are not recognized as distinct psychological conditions. They are instead all considered to be specific phobias, the diagnosis of and treatment of are basically the same protocols (i.e. a specific phobia against spiders does not have a different diagnosis or treatment protocol than one against snakes or clowns or the color teal). This article delves some into the genetics of specific phobias. --Jayron 32 18:10, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

One difference is that some phobias need to be treated to live a normal life, like a fear of going outside, while others aren't debilitating and the object of fear can just be avoided, like a fear of snakes. In fact, if you aren't a snake expert, avoiding all snakes is quite sensible. StuRat (talk) 18:28, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

As explained in the phobia article, clinicians only recognize 3 types of phobias: specific phobia, social phobia, and agoraphobia. Therefore there are three different diagnostic protocols, and three different sets of treatment protocols, for phobias. There is not, however, a special diagnostic or treatment protocol for "fear of snakes.", and there certainly is no specific reference in clinical manuals to "ophidiophobia". It's merely a type of specific phobia, and all such phobias are treated similarly. --Jayron 32 19:07, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Eye color and light absorption

Eye_color#Brown says that due to high melanin concentration in the iris this color absorbs both shorter and longer wavelengths. Does it mean that brown and dark brown eyes are less protected against direct sunlight, compared to other eye colors, similar to sun glasses and UV filter? I read that in case of hair color the black ~~absorps~~ absorbs more heat than blonde so that the former becomes warmer after 5 minutes of direct sunlight. Brandmeister^talk 21:43, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No, not if you mean light hitting the retina, because the eye color is not in the path of light that hits the cornea. That's a bit like saying the paint color on your car affects how much light makes it through the windshield (although in that case at least some light is reflected off the paint into the windows, unlike with eyes).

Now, if you are asking if the pigment itself is more likely to be damaged by UV light, that's possible. I don't know the answer to that. StuRat (talk) 21:45, 12 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You have the reasoning backwards. Like pale skin, blue eyes are more sensitive to sunlight. The dark iris protects the sensitive retina by keeping out more light. μηδείς (talk) 02:29, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
- Yep, that makes sense. But I also wonder whether due to absorption of both shorter and longer wavelengths dark eyes have somewhat better vision than other colors? Brandmeister^talk 07:39, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]
Does a significant amount of light reach the retina after passing through the iris? It's the light passing through the pupil that focuses on the retina. Dbfirs 06:14, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That's the whole reason the iris is pigmented; to allow a variable aperture, the closure of which blocks more light. The pigment does the blocking. If brown irises were to let only 1% of light to pass, while blue irises allowed 2% (I'm making those numbers up) then people with blue irises would still be getting twice the amount of extra light. Studies vary in their conclusions, but the overall picture is that blue-eyed people get much more UV damage overall. Unexpectedly, one Y2K study did show brown-eyed people got more cataracts, but the explanations offered for this are speculative. μηδείς (talk) 15:55, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

And just to clarify, it is the lens, not the iris which does the focusing. The purpose of the iris is to regulate light incidence on the retina, not to focus it. μηδείς (talk) 01:22, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

August 13

Nicotine addiction

request for medical advice, user wishes to take a drug and wants to know how it will affect him

The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.

I'm curious what nicotine addiction feels like so I plan on doing e-cigarette's. I'm fine with the crash I'll experience for a few weeks after quitting but I'm wondering if it'll be like low-level craving it for years/rest of my life? I don't want to wake up everyday forever thinking damn I wish I had some nicotine. 2.102.184.47 (talk) 03:44, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Please read the instructions at the top of the page, we cannot make medical predictions or speculate on the future. μηδείς (talk) 04:05, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think dismissing this is an unjustifiable cop-out. Nicotine is not a prescribed medication, and sources on the rapid onset of addiction are available: [24] [25] [26] Note these sources all agree that one can become addicted within two days, though it may not happen that fast. As in Charlottesville, there is more harm to be done by suppressing discussion than by permitting it. Wnt (talk) 12:05, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The FDA has regulated all nicotine products since August 2016 https://www.fda.gov/tobaccoproducts/labeling/rulesregulationsguidance/ucm394909.htm. This is a request for personal advice on how the use of a drug will affect the individual, a classic no-no. μηδείς (talk) 15:24, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I tried smoking as a youth, but it just made my heart pound, so I could not achieve the habit. Alcohol and caffeine worked better. It might be genetics. Edison (talk) 02:44, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

identify an insect

Triangular shaped bug about 5-7 millimetres long. I think it is initially translucent, then green and finally brown (not sure though). Dozens of this insect are present on the stalks of a bean plant. It is not feeding on the leaves, but probably on the stalk. Not found on nearby plants until the bean stack was cut down / pruned. Ants seem to interacting with it a lot (I think). Google reverse image search wasn't helpful.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Cplusplusboy (talk • contribs) 07:04, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

These look like larvae of some species of Cicadellidae or leafhoppers, sap sucking insects that probably produce honeydew which accounts for the opportunistic (or farming) ants. There are very many species and some specialist sources will probably be required to establish the exact indentification. Compare with this image http://www.ozanimals.com/Insect/Leafhopper-larvae/Cicadllidae%20family/spp2.html. Richard Avery (talk) 10:18, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The thorn shape reminds me of a treehopper - for example, [27] reviews that this shape is pretty representative, and involves a much modified pronotum... the setae do make it seem more like a nymph, though early treehopper stages apparently don't have the thorn shape. this photo of Acanthuchus trispinifer looks similar but not identical to me. Our resources, including Wikispecies, seem almost entirely deficient on any kind of Terentiini other than this species. Wnt (talk) 11:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The pictures in the landcareresearch.co.nz link are the ones (unless this shape and colour are commonly found in other species). The green photos with the pyramid shaped head and curved tail I posted are nymphs and the brown ones not posted here is the adult tri-horned treehopper as per the website. Thanks Cplusplusboy (talk) 16:37, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Do the ants actively protect these from predators? I want to know whether I can get these pests to get eaten by predators if I get rid of the ants. The ants seem to have made a colony under the soil very close to the plant on which these insects were found Cplusplusboy (talk) 16:46, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Pressure during gravitational collapse

How much pressure approximately (say, in GPa) is generated by gravitational compression during gravitational collapse of a star (also in cases of black holes)? Thanks.--212.180.235.46 (talk) 14:46, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, but add it to Orders of magnitude (pressure) when you find out. Abductive (reasoning) 19:50, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

If I haven't lost a decimal place, I believe the sun's core is roughly 34 million GPa, which should give a representative idea of the pressures involved. Dragons flight (talk) 10:44, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well, according to our neutron star article the pressure near the center of a typical one is on the order of 10^35 Pa, or 10^26 GPa, which is, um, a bit higher than your figure. (This already appears in the "orders of magnitude" list.) Looie496 (talk) 19:45, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fat

What is the maximum dietary fat intake per day and over what time period to cause rabbit starvation? Does the type of fat make any difference (animal vs plant)? The article is vague on the specifics. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by 134.213.208.187 (talk) 18:56, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Rabbit starvation occurs when there is excessive protein and too little fat in the body.[28] This study suggests that there is no difference between lentil-based protein and animal-based protein on nitrogen absorption and thus hints that the lentil-based protein can be used to feed moderately malnourished children.[29] Dr. Michael Greger reports that eating a high-fat, high-protein animal-based diet faces a much higher mortality rate than eating a high-fat, high-protein vegetable-based diet here and the Standard American Diet. SSS (talk) 19:35, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at Vegetarian nutrition, I see no problems with plant-based fats (...Yummmm. Avocados...). Vegitarians and vegans have to take some extra care to avoid nutrient deficiencies, but millions and millions of people do it and live healthy lives without eating animals. Note: I am not a vegetarian; I am just reporting what the science says. --Guy Macon (talk) 21:36, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Presently the US government suggests that a person who needs 2000 kcal per day consume no more than 65 grams of fat a day and of those that no more than 20 grams be saturated fat. If the total energy need is 2500 kcal then the corresponding numbers are 80 g fat and 25 g saturated fat. See also [30]. The nanny state worries about us consuming saturated fat, sugar, and caffeine.Edison (talk) 02:40, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Tunnel, sea

Are tunnels crossing the sea, like the euro tunnel, a tube over the sea bed or are they dig under the ground like a subway? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 31.4.149.201 (talk) 22:22, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The Channel Tunnel was dug through the sea bed.. You can see a cross-sectional diagram at that article. Rojomoke (talk) 23:28, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I think in general, laying a tube over the sea bed but deep under water has the problematic aspect that a rupture would make immense quantities of water enter at once. A tube beneath the sea bed can be dug like any tunnel beneath the water table (including tunnels on "land") - to be sure, it is immersed, but the permeability of the rock determines how rapidly water can enter. Wnt (talk) 23:44, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Both techniques are possible. As noted, the Channel Tunnel (or Eurotunnel) was bored below the seabed, but on the other hand, the Transbay Tube is indeed "a tube over the sea bed". However, note that while both are under arms of the sea, the English Channel is a good deal deeper than San Francisco Bay.

By the way, note that subways are not always "dug under the ground". Another common technique is to dug them into the ground as open trenches which are then then covered over. See Tunnel#Cut-and-cover. --69.159.60.147 (talk) 06:19, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

That article links to Undersea tunnel but it doesn't really discuss construction methods that much. However it does link to our article on the Immersed tube tunnel. From there, you'll find a link to the article on the theoretical Submerged floating tunnel. Nil Einne (talk) 07:20, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

BTW those articles claim without sources that Marmaray is the deepest immersed tube tunnel in the world, and per our article its deepest point is around 60m. Busan–Geoje Fixed Link is said to be the deepest road immersed tube tunnel and our article suggests it could be the second deepest, being 48m at its deepest point. By comparison, our article says the Channel Tunnel is 115m below the sea level at its deepest point although it's also 75m below the sea bed. Going back to the earlier articles, we find Eiksund Tunnel which is said to be the deepest overall and is 287m at its deepest point. However it seems Rogfast is probably going to be 390m at its deepest point. Nil Einne (talk) 07:32, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Øresund Bridge is another to look at. 3.5km of buried tube tunnel. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:29, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

DIY crappy chokes for VGA cables?

The VGA cables I have don't have chokes on and I think there is some interference between them or them and something else. Is there something I can use to make a choke that I can apply to the cable? I have a few ferrite toroids but I can't get them around the cable without cutting the cable first (not doing that, obviously). I have some strips of thin steel I could wrap around and maybe magnetise first if that would make a difference. --145.255.246.8 (talk) 23:26, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

A ferrite choke, scored with a file, snappped in half and then superglued back together is still a reasonably efficient choke. There are also ferrite rings made in two pieces, ground smooth on the mating surfaces, and held in a snap-lock plastic housing. You can often find these on old cables: monitor or keyboard. I habitually recycle these when scrapping old keyboards, they're often useful for ad hoc suppression tasks. Andy Dingley (talk) 09:26, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01MRIKIJX/ref=asc_df_B01MRIKIJX5121726 Also see: http://palomar-engineers.com/ferrite-products/snap-on-split-beads --Guy Macon (talk) 09:31, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Industrial uses of seawater

Here in the non-coastal US, we always have enough water for drinking and other non-agricultural uses (the only significant effect of droughts is that farmers who can't irrigate may lose their crops), and when non-potable water is needed for ordinary industrial purposes (firefighting, power-washing, dust suppression, etc.), we routinely use water from the mains or from a river if it's available. Can seawater generally be used for similar purposes? Geography of Singapore notes that their freshwater needs surpass what they get from rainfall, and I'm left wondering if they're able to use seawater in such contexts (i.e. if they couldn't, they'd have to import far more water than they do now), or if for some reason it's impossible and they have to import water for industrial purposes as well. Nyttend (talk) 23:47, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

PS, I'm familiar with fireboats; I'm wondering if it's practical to set up water mains for seawater for the sake of firefighting that's not near the shoreline. Given Singapore's numerous high-rises, I doubt they'd want to rely on tanker engines, and obviously they can't use long fire-hoses to pump water for non-shoreline fires. Nyttend (talk) 23:50, 13 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Bad idea, contaminating all the waste water with salt (if you recycle waste water for drinking etc). Also, what proportion of the ciy's water usage is fire fighting - not much i'd guess rather negating my first point. Greglocock (talk) 01:57, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It suggested to use seawater for cooling in Singapore [31]. I suspect it happens in practice but am lazy to search for sure but it definitely happens elsewhere although this does require careful consideration of the cooling system design, and also leads to concerns over the local marine environmental effects of tie discharge [32] [33] [34] [35]. A particularly common user is power plants but again there's a lot of controversy over the effects of such practices on the local marine enviroment, especially with once through systems [36] [37] [38] [39]. Nil Einne (talk) 07:14, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[40] discusses using sea water in mining operations but although it does mention the possibility of using it straight, all the examples cited seem to involve some desalination. Nil Einne (talk) 07:35, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

When I lived in Hawaii, the university installed seawater cooling for multiple buildings. It isn't really use of seawater. They take a coolant (not seawater) and pump it down deep into the ocean. The coolant gets cold. It is pumped back up and circulated through the walls of a building. It cools down the building. It is then pumped back down into the ocean. I would call it deep-ocean cooling, not seawater cooling. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 14:56, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Salt water is not very gentle on whatever you put it into (pipes, etc.). Also, in some of the example applications you gave, the water will then evaporate and leave the salt behind, which is usually undesirable. Reclaimed water systems are what is generally used to produce non-potable water and reduce water usage. --47.138.161.183 (talk) 08:10, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Salt doesn't tend to come out of solution until the seawater is quite concentrated. At high temperatures, the bigger problem is sulphates, as these form a hard scale that's hard to shift. Provided that brine isn't concentrated more than three times, and doesn't exceed 60ºC, it's not a big problem (see Evaporator). Andy Dingley (talk) 09:44, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[41]. [42]. [43]. --Jayron 32 12:11, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

August 14

Trying to find a video footage of Albert Einstein

A few years ago, in some TV scientific program, a short & rare footage was shown, with Einstein. The impression made by it is immense - 'looking' at you, surveying you from top to bottom, as if you were completely transparent. Chilling. Unforgetable. I'll be very glad to hear about this movie and how to get it. I need it also for psychophysical research. בנצי (talk) 08:08, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You can look at this but there is many videos on Youtube. Ruslik_Zero 20:26, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Is this clickbait real?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Cto1DXXHAc for something as easy to test as this, I'm sure professional labcoats have done it 1,000,000,000 times already. Is it real? I've never even heard of any alien looking life form. Money is tight (talk) 11:09, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It is a real video packed full of ads. It is designed to get as many people watching as possible so the ads pay off. As for the content, it is not real. You have to be very very ignorant to think that there is anything remotely real about the video. See Fertilisation. 209.149.113.5 (talk) 11:35, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Yea thought it was fake. I've never even heard of something like this and its such a simple test. What is that thing though? Some kind of flatworm? How did he get it in the egg? Money is tight (talk) 11:44, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Your initial query triggered my clickkbait monitor, and I'm certainly not looking at it now I know it is packed with ads. But II'm still interested how did they manage to get you to watch it??— Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmcq (talk • contribs) 12:03, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Given your propensity to point out videos without explaining anything [44][45] I am afraid I also have to discount you as a spammer. Wnt (talk) 12:09, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Money is too tight, maybe... —Paleo Neonate – 12:14, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I wasn't thinking of the OP as a spammer, I was just interested in how they got sucked in when even their description shouts trashy video made to get clicks and incidentally destroy a few minutes each of millions of lives. Enough of that and they'll spend eight hours a day watching mind-numbing nonsense. Dmcq (talk) 13:24, 14 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wow spammer? You think that's my video? It's called ad block, I see 0 ads on youtube. I was intrigued, never saw anything like it. You people are arrogant and paranoid. Money is tight (talk) 02:27, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You people? μηδείς (talk) 02:52, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

It's been debunked, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBQdAsDtTio, he used clay with magnets inside, drilled a hole in the egg and put it in (he doesn't show you the egg had no holes before he cracked it). Money is tight (talk) 03:08, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

August 15

How many hours after aphelion could "the moment of the year you're furthest from the Sun" be?

Without exceeding airliner speed/altitude. What's the approximate path? It seems like it'd involve avoiding the antisolar point from >12 hours before to >12 hours after then flying over the antisolar point. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 00:38, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not quite sure how to interpret your Q. I thought you were asking for a particular point on the surface of the Earth, when is it farthest from the Sun. The path would approximately be an epicycloid. Whether the Earth's rotation is more significant than the Earth's distance from the Sun I'm not sure of. So, it could either be the point nearest aphelion where that point on the Earth is rotated farthest from the Sun, or it could be at the exact moment of aphelion (somehow I doubt this, though, unless you are close to a pole).

But then you introduced the possibility of flying in a plane, which confused me. In that case, you would just fly to the point of the Earth furthest from the Sun at aphelion, in advance, and then aphelion would be the moment. StuRat (talk) 01:32, 15 August 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 318: / Line 318: @@
 :::::::You people? [[User:Medeis|μηδείς]] ([[User talk:Medeis|talk]]) 02:52, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
+It's been debunked, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DBQdAsDtTio, he used clay with magnets inside, drilled a hole in the egg and put it in (he doesn't show you the egg had no holes before he cracked it). [[User:Money is tight|Money is tight]] ([[User talk:Money is tight|talk]]) 03:08, 15 August 2017 (UTC)
 = August 15 =