Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

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Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. 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Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
Peugeot 505, Peugeot 5CV	Resolved	Avi8tor (t)	19 days, 12 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	6 days, 3 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	6 days, 3 hours
Norse Deity pages	In Progress	Dots321 (t)	12 days, 1 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	3 days, 8 hours	VeryRarelyStable (t)	1 days, 23 hours
List of South Korean girl groups	Closed	98Tigerius (t)	11 days, 20 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	4 days, 11 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	4 days, 11 hours
Benevolent dictatorship	In Progress	Banedon (t)	11 days, 1 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 10 hours	LokiTheLiar (t)	7 hours
Talk:Taylor Swift	Closed	Gsgdd (t)	10 days, 18 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	10 days, 3 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	10 days, 3 hours
Kylie Minogue	Closed	PHShanghai (t)	8 days, 9 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 10 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	1 days, 10 hours
African diaspora	Closed	Kyogul (t)	5 days, 3 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	4 days, 3 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	4 days, 3 hours

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Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 20:46, 11 July 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

Talk:Selsey#Climate Edit War

Dispute resolved successfully. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by Djm-leighpark on 10:17, 21 January 2018 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Talk:Selsey#Climate Edit War (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved Djm-leighpark (talk · contribs) 10 December 2017 (talk · contribs) Wilfridselsey (talk · contribs) SovalValtos (talk · contribs) Charlesdrakew (talk · contribs) Dan Koehl (talk · contribs) Dispute overview The issue involves the a weather box for Selsey that was added as far as I can tell 29 August 2017 and expanded 22 October 2017. The box has been subject to removal and inclusion since. The data appears to come from 5km grid extrapolated data from the met office, there being no weather station in Selsey. How to write about UK Settlements guidance seems to be for use of climate box if there is local data. Though practice seems to be to use or also use a climate box if there is a weather station in the area. Arguments against use of weather box include undue weight, WP:UNDUE, maintenance effort, and against UK guidelines. Have you tried to resolve this previously? Observed edit warring in progress and attempted to raise discussion. Concensus is unlikely to be reached and I have moved to a non neutral position onto how with would go. How do you think we can help? Provide a neutral discussion as to whether a weather box is appropriate. Summary of dispute by 10 December 2017 Just look at the difference between the Bognor Regis and Selsey weather boxes. The averages in the Selsey weather box, calculated from the 5x5 km grid squares, reflect Selsey's more exposed position which means lower summer temperatures, higher winter temperatures, more wind and more sunshine. Although it forms part of the data, Selsey's weather box does not simply use Bognor Regis data. As I've said before, the fact that it is in the sunniest grid square warrants a weather box so that all extremes of the UK climate are covered. It would be good to do this for the warmest and the driest places too for example.--10 December 2017 (talk) 16:58, 21 January 2018 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Wilfridselsey The problem for me is that a weather box just provides a load of data. IMO most people will find this meaningless unless there is some sort of analysis to support it. Also I think that is important to state that the data, was provided by a weather station, that is not located in Selsey. In other parts of the country the fact that the data came from a neighbouring weather station wouldn't skew the data significantly, however as Selsey is a promontory in the English Channel means that the weather, in Selsey, can be strongly influenced by sea conditions. It would not be possible for the weather station in Bognor to detect this. Summary of dispute by SovalValtos Climate in Selsey is best covered in text which can explain and clarify the context. The table gives undue weight to detailed figures which are not even measured data, just being synthesised for a grid square which includes part of Selsey, and which are derived by interpolation and regression. I am not sure where the further calculation of averages come from, WP:OR?. Tables with genuine data from weather stations in a region can be linked from settlements without one. They should not be included in settlement articles where there is no weather station. Including a table as a guide to holiday makers is not a convincing argument.SovalValtos (talk) 05:16, 22 January 2018 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Charlesdrakew Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker. This discussion could have been resolved at the article talk page, with a request for comment perhaps. I concur with Wilfredselsey and we usually cover climate on county articles rather that for every settlement. If Selsey is outstandingly sunny that can be stated in prose with a suitable source. It does not justify including a mass of detailed data not even specific to the settlement.Charles (talk) 19:36, 21 January 2018 (UTC) Summary of dispute by Dan Koehl Being involved through my revert 11 januari 2018, after which I double checked the sources, and actually didnt find anything supporting the mentioned weather box, but unfortunately forgot about the issue. I now therefore agree with User:Djm-leighpark, on a removal of the weather box and move climate section to subsection of geography. I would therefore back the weatherbox out. I think its good, that this issue was brought to Wikipedia:Dispute resolution, in order to support later, similair actions of removing POV claims of climate changes, which are not really supported by relevant sources. Dan Koehl (talk) 14:27, 21 January 2018 (UTC) Talk:Selsey#Climate Edit War discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. First statement by moderator I will try to act as the moderator here. I see multiple editors, and will direct all of them to the mediation rules. It appears that some editors want to include a weather box and others do not. Is that correct? Are there any other issues? Robert McClenon (talk) 12:01, 22 January 2018 (UTC) First statements by editors .Yes that is absolutely correct--10 December 2017 (talk) 16:14, 22 January 2018 (UTC) .For practical purposes I would say that is correct. However if the same data was presented but not using a weatherbox we be likely have most of the same issues as mentioned above and on the talk page.Djm-leighpark (talk) 17:31, 22 January 2018 (UTC) .As an additional concern I have come to suspect we may have Wikipedia content copied from UKCP09 (5km) gridded observation datasets source under (UK) Open Government Licence but not appropriately attributed in breach of licence. However some might argue this may or may not be a problem depending on how the Met office web site is navigated and I may have misinterpreted this. In all events my understanding is this would be likely resolvable by correct attributions etc. if necessary.Djm-leighpark (talk) 17:31, 22 January 2018 (UTC) Second statement by moderator It appears that the issue is whether to include a weather box in the article. What this noticeboard tries to do is to facilitate resolution of content disputes by compromise, but I don't know of a compromise between having a weather box and not having one. Therefore the most reasonable solution is probably a Request for Comments. Are there any other thoughts as to what to do next? Is there agreement that a Request for Comments allowing both existing editors and new editors to express their opinions and state their reasons is the way forward? Will each editor who has an idea for the weather box please prepare a draft weather box. If we get more than one proposal, we can choose between them. If there are any other ideas, please present them within 36 hours. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:29, 24 January 2018 (UTC) Second statements by editors @moderator. Interim stages between weatherbox and no weatherbox could be: Reduction in number of rows in the weatherbox Set collapse = yes parameter so the weatherbox initially renders collapsed. Use of a Template:Climate chart. Suggested by User:SovalValtos in the discussion on the Selsey talk page and the template suggested on WP:WikiProject_UK_geography/How_to_write_about_settlements#Geography. An example of a climate chart can be seen at Bognor Regis#Climate. WP:WikiProject_UK_geography/How_to_write_about_settlements#Geography also suggests use of a separate article where climate data is extensive. Unfortunately all but the last above are ways of presenting the data in the weatherbox differently and most key objections revolve around the sourcing, applicability, usage and sustainability of the data so I personally and not minded to judge any of those possible compromises as acceptable. (Incidently I'm not sure if moving to a different article would be good either).Djm-leighpark (talk) 06:29, 24 January 2018 (UTC) @moderator. I am ok with going for RfC if necessary at this stage ... especially as suggested by yourself and User:Charlesdrakew (obviously though I prefer it is resolved here). Indeed I was initially unsure of which direction to forward the dispute and accept I may have made a suboptimal choice. Djm-leighpark (talk) 06:37, 24 January 2018 (UTC) Just to correct Djm-leighpark I have not suggested a Template:Climate chart in talk and I do not think it is anyone's first preference. Noone has said that text will not do. The editor who likes a chart 10 December 2017 has also said in this edit [1] that they are 'open to having a discussion about the weather box'. Could they consider that it might be possible to include the information about sunshine hours in text or with links without a weather box? Otherwise, if this cannot be resolved here, I am I am happy to be guided by those who are experienced in these processes as to what to do next.SovalValtos (talk) 11:38, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Third statement by moderator First, is everyone willing to compromise on text? If everyone is willing to compromise on text, we resolve the dispute by compromising on text. If even one editor does not agree to that compromise, then we use the RFC. Second, does anyone think that "nothing" is an option, or do we agree that we use either a box or text? Third, if we go with the RFC, the two obvious options are the box and text. Are there any more options to list? Fourth, does anyone object to the RFC? If so, they should state what the objection is, and it will likely be considered and ignored. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:12, 25 January 2018 (UTC) Third statements by editors @moderator: I am happy for that to be in text/prose provided supported by suitable source. I am a little concerned about about a dataset being regarded as a suitable source should the analysis of it being regarded as Original Research. In simple terms the Met office publishes the tables for the (weather station) at Bognor Regis through a public web interface see averages tab for Bognor. For Selsey this is provdided by downloadable 5km grid datasets and I would caution analysis of these datasets might be regarded as Original Research. So if we were to use the existing citation with the sentence: Over the period 1981-2010 Selsey averaged monthly sunshine hours of 262.6 in July that probably would NOT suffice as a suitable reference if I understand correctly.Djm-leighpark (talk) 00:08, 26 January 2018 (UTC) The dataset is not original research. It is a primary source, the use of which to draw conclusions in the article may be original research. Articles should mostly be written in prose and mainly from secondary sources. I therefor support sticking to text.Charles (talk) 09:26, 26 January 2018 (UTC) I agree with Charles . Wilfridselsey (talk) 09:52, 26 January 2018 (UTC) I am happy to compromise on text. I hope I am not straying too far by saying that a primary source dataset for a specific 5km square is NOT specific to the settlement. I doubt the Met Office say it is, given Selsey is partly in four such squares over-lapping its and neighbouring areas.SovalValtos (talk) 20:15, 26 January 2018 (UTC) Fourth statement by moderator It appears that everyone is willing to compromise on text. If no one objects, we have resolution to compromise on text. If there is any objection, we will use the RFC. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:31, 28 January 2018 (UTC) Fourth statements by editors OK.Djm-leighpark (talk) 06:56, 28 January 2018 (UTC) References Fifth statement by moderator It seems that we have agreement to compromise on text. Will some editor please write the proposed text about the weather? We can then close this thread unless there is disagreement about the wording of the text. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:36, 30 January 2018 (UTC) Fifth statements by editors @moderator: As a startpoint I suggest the wording of the Climate section is as follows whilst remaining open to alternative suggestions: See also: Climate of the United Kingdom Selsey's climate is classified as warm and temperate. Although Selsey is situated in the sunniest part of the UK, there is rainfall throughout the year and even the driest month still has rain. Probably the most problematic climatic hazard is wind. The town is situated in an area where tornadoes and waterspouts are common. A tornado in 1986 damaged 200 houses and cut a swathe 70 metres wide. Another tornado in 1998 left an estimated £10m of destruction and damaged Patrick Moore's observatory. Djm-leighpark (talk) 05:56, 30 January 2018 (UTC) . References @moderator: User:Djm-leighpark's suggested text is a good start. I have a concern about the use of the Ref 2. Averages Map source. Has it been added correctly? It leads to a Met Office site page where there is nothing to suggest Selsey is 'in the sunniest part of the UK'. Moving within the site to another page 'Sunshine - Annual average: 1971-2000' [2] there is a map from which it is reasonable to deduce that Selsey is in one of the sunnier parts (Pembrokeshire and Norfolk having others). I would prefer the text to read "Selsey is in in one of the sunnier areas of the UK". Without scrupulously careful wording in Climate sections problems can arise.SovalValtos (talk) 22:36, 30 January 2018 (UTC) @moderator: Just to confirm I simply took the text directly from the existing article (without thinking too much about it). Especially after quick google I am tending to go with User:SovalValtos unless say User:Charlesdrakew has better suggestion.Djm-leighpark (talk) 23:01, 30 January 2018 (UTC) I wrote the original text and inserted the Met Office climate table ref. My feeling was that it was a fairly easy reference to understand. Bognor is classed as the sunniest spot and W.Sussex the sunniest county based on Met Office stats, so we can say that 'Selsey is in the sunniest part of the UK'. However, my original thought was for simplicity, and if any reader wanted to do some more research then the link that we provide to that Met office page, would enable them to do that. So I would be quite happy to go with SovalValtos's wording. Wilfridselsey (talk) 11:25, 31 January 2018 (UTC) Sixth statement by moderator I will change one of the ground rules, since there has been civil discourse between the editors, and allow the editors to talk to each other as well as to me. Please continue the discussion about the text about the weather. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:40, 31 January 2018 (UTC) Sixth statements by editors I think it's the weather box that's the issue not the text? As has been pointed out Selsey could do with a Geography section, with climate being part of that, also I would suggest that we need something about coastal erosion and the managed retreat not to mention the archaeology. I am quite confident that that would be developed without dispute, maybe a bit of tweaking. But weatherbox?Wilfridselsey (talk) 10:15, 2 February 2018 (UTC) Totally agree. I think the text can be done and is best done under normal editing collaboration. There's a bit on the notable Medmerry managed realignment scheme in the Bracklesham Bay article and (I could go on and on and on like I normally do ...) ... but these are things under normal collaborative editing which I think we normally do quite well. Believe we should go with the round five amendment with no weatherbox and get out of DRN and create a Geography if/when we need to later outside of DRN.Djm-leighpark (talk) 15:09, 2 February 2018 (UTC) Time to move on. No weather box and Met Office sources must not be asked to support wording that they will not bear, like any other source.SovalValtos (talk) 15:53, 3 February 2018 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Talk:Esperanto grammar#Ci

– New discussion.

Filed by Mutichou on 09:08, 5 February 2018 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Talk:Esperanto grammar#Ci (edit | subject | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Mutichou (talk · contribs)
• Funlinguist (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Hi, this is my first experience with dispute resolution so I hope I'm in the right place.

For months, there has been an IP user whose main hobby is editing Esperanto-related articles (especially Esperanto grammar) to promote his point of view on how the language should be.

The involved IPs are: 208.70.40.2, 2600:1015:B001:5166:8D53:E4E4:70F1:CB8B, 2601:805:C002:6420:1DB:A660:733B:1B80, 2600:1015:B02E:9BEE:BDA6:8123:C35E:C479, 2600:1015:B008:AB42:81F3:2956:1A7B:7F9C, Funlinguist (he created an account once after I contacted him), etc.

His activity, by the way, is not limited to the English-language Wikipedia: global contributions.

For those who are not familiar with Esperanto, his main goal is adding ci in articles about Esperanto - a second-person singular pronoun that theoretically exists but has never been widely used and, for all intents and purposes, does not exist in the language as it is used. That would be like me replacing "you" with "thou" in all example sentences given in English grammar - maybe not exactly wrong, but misleading as it would imply that it is part of normal usage and it would be confusing for the readers (which it is, by the way).

The user's edit record include putting "Fixed typo" as an edit summary when it was more than that and editing a quote to add words that were never in it.

Have you tried to resolve this previously?

I first discussed it in the talk page, but nobody replied. Then I left a message in User talk:208.70.40.2, and another one, and finally, the user replied to me, but then continued editing as before and never answered another message. I have also left a message in User talk:2600:1015:B001:5166:8D53:E4E4:70F1:CB8B that has been ignored, and other users have messaged him in the same talk pages.

How do you think we can help?

I'm hoping the other user is willing to discuss the issue if other people try to get in touch with him.

Summary of dispute by Funlinguist

Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.

Talk:Esperanto grammar#Ci discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.