:Thank you for your work on this! Looks awesome. [[User:Enterprisey|Enterprisey]] ([[User talk:Enterprisey|talk!]]) 21:18, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
:Thank you for your work on this! Looks awesome. [[User:Enterprisey|Enterprisey]] ([[User talk:Enterprisey|talk!]]) 21:18, 27 August 2018 (UTC)
== Sai Sachin Bellie ==
Sachin is a former Indian international cricketer and a former captain of the Indian national team, regarded as one of the greatest batsmen of all time. He is the highest run scorer of all time in International cricket
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Reject template. A main review option next to Decline
It's been said many times that AfC needs a firm reject option / template in complement the soft decline template. I think this has been broadly agreed to, with no one actively disagreeing. Is it fair to say that that we are all agreed, and it is just a matter of formalizing that, and getting someone to write the detail of the reject option, and to implement it?
In my imagination, how this would then work, is that on reviewing a draft, a reviewer has these options:
CSD it. (things that should be speedy deleted should be speedy deleted promptly and without fanfare.
Accept it. It would probably be kept at AfD.
Recommend (or do) a merge or a straight redirect, the topic is already in mainspace.
Decline it. It may be OK, but the author needs to do some work, or find some better sources.
Reject it. It is not suitable, though not speedy deleteable. Similar to the {{NSFW}} template. The reviewer may have rejected in error, so it shouldn't be immediately deleted, but in time it should be deleted. The reject option should state "rejected" with a very brief explanation, possibly a "sorry", and it should not encourage the author to keep trying on the same topic.
I don't know if I'm a lone dissenter but I have consistently objected to efforts to implement a hard decline through (what I consider to be) WP:BITEY reject language or, especially, deletion of drafts. I maintain that the way to deal with this is to let these submissions sit in the queue for a while when the are resubmitted and eventually and consistently decline them. Having multiple reviewers look at the draft assures that we're making a good reject decision. With consistent rejects the good-faith authors will get the message. With time and emotionally level responses, the trolls will lose interest.
I do not believe that these submissions consume significant reviewer time. I do believe that they are exasperating to some reviewers but I believe the better solution is for those reviewers to stop dealing with these drafts.
I do believe there is work to be done on our decline language and options. Primefac has created a workshop for that. I'm not sure that process is converging though. ~Kvng (talk) 14:43, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't disagree with this, in my darker moments I've wanted a "decline-o-meter" with a 0-10 shot of it being acceptable. That being said, I feel the issue is two-fold: The language in the decline templates is entirely useless to humans, and we should be more aggressive with CSDing spam. Forgive my tangent, but people who aren't associated with a company don't call it "an industry-changing innovative whatever" and don't get me started with articles that say "we have expanded to over 200 locations!". I also feel MfD is somewhat under-utilized by folks, myself included. All that to say I'm not a huge fan of stringing along people who submit spam, and to a lesser extent people who submit NOTHERE articles. I feel the former should be dumped on sight, and the latter given an AGF review message. So, I'm going with neutral on this :D Drewmutt(^ᴥ^)talk 15:02, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I completely agree with the examples provided by User:Drewmutt that they should be shot on sight with G11 with survivors prosecuted. The former is marketing buzzspeak, which says nothing at all, and a single use of the first person plural should indicate Foe on Identify Friend or Foe. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:18, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I also completely agree. MfD underutilised? You might expect me to argue, but I won’t, the problem with so many past MfDs of draft pages is that the nominations cited tendentious resubmitting when the template encourages a EditImprove-Resubmit-DeclinewithFeedback-EditImprove cycle, and when nominations posed an open notability question as if the MfD reviewers had to do an AfD style analysis and this was contrary to community views articulated at the NMFD RfC. I wish for a hard Reject response where at a simple face reading the author is not invited to resubmit. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:31, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It would be a big improvement. My comment in passing is that it is verbose. I think the draft page “reject” should be very brief, and your version, with the myriad of potentially useful links, should go,on the author’s talk page. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:24, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is a little tangential to SmokeyJoe's original thread, but I wonder if it might be useful to add an easy link for page creators to request {{db-self}} deletion, particularly in cases where a draft has no foreseeable chance of success in mainspace. Something like User:Mz7/sandbox/AfC declined or User:Mz7/sandbox/AfC declined alt. Mz7 (talk) 18:50, 14 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think so. I sounds like pushing humiliation onto the inept newcomer. Why not let it wait for G13? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:50, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Rejection sucks. But, isn't it better to reject something cleanly, and politely explain why, than to string the person along with pointless encouragement? There's a need to differentiate between, "This sucks, but it's fixable if you do X, Y, and Z", vs. "This is fundamentally sucky, don't waste our time or yours on trying to improve it". NIH has a review category of Not Recommended for Further Consideration. That's what we need. -- RoySmith(talk) 13:32, 15 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
RoySmiths comments are always very good, I think I always agree with them. I love the picture.
Rejection sucks. An amelioration is to be very explicit that it is the draft topic that is rejected, not the author, or the effort, or the writing. Too many decline reasons, the ones that are too softly worded rejections, read as implying that the author hasn’t tried enough, when the real problem is that the topic simply isn’t notable. When this is the case, User:Joe Decker/IsThisNotable is an excellent response. It makes it very easy on the author and dumps the failure on the topic.
Of course, it is hard to separate criticism of the author from criticism of notability of the topic when the draft is a promotional autobiography. Difficult, but not very difficult. “Reviewer User:Example has judged the topic as not sufficiently notable for a Wikipedia article. If you disagree, follow the instructions at User:Joe Decker/IsThisNotable.” —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:57, 16 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Is there anything stopping this from becoming reality? Do we need to take this to a mini-RFC? MER-C 19:42, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Pinging @Enterprisey:: Is there any large technical hurdle to getting something like this added as an additional decline option? My (very involved) reading is that we have a rough consensus to do that, but I wouldn't object to a quick 7 day RFC if that's contested. Tazerdadog (talk) 22:02, 23 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sure, this is definitely doable. We'd need to change the decline template to give it a slightly different color scheme if the "hard decline" option is selected (if we want it to look exactly like the example above). But otherwise it's easy to add a new decline reason. Enterprisey (talk!) 06:33, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As Enterprisey has indicated, this is trivial to change the template decline (and even the colour), but we still (still, still) do not have a specific set of criteria for when this would be used. In other words, we will either need to clarify which of the existing decline reasons will trigger this response, or create a new set of codes that will do it. Primefac (talk) 21:41, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Leave it to reviewer discretion “would have no hope at AfD, not a suitable topic”. Reviewer signs it. Surely this doesn’t need to be as objective as CSD? If it must, The anything speediable if in mainspace, mainly A7 and A11. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 21:58, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No, it doesn't need to be objective as CSD, but I need to know whether I'm just creating a "version 2" (i.e. neo2) for every decline reason, creating "some but not all", or if the consensus is to have a new set of "this isn't acceptable" fail reasons. Primefac (talk) 22:05, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I’ve always been thinking of it as singular. For things so obviously unsuitable that nothing needs saying. The answer is no. More words make the “no” only more unclear. Don’t give any reasons. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:16, 24 June 2018 (UTC). Template:NSFW is an example. SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:17, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see what I can do. Primefac (talk) 23:51, 24 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weighing in here, I think that we should have many fewer reject templates than decline templates. While the reject templates should be somewhat shorter than decline templates, they should still at minimum explain that it was rejected, explain what the standard is, and provide a place to go to seek clarification (I made my template above link to the AFC help desk). I think that we want a reject template for notability, and a general reject template. My template above could serve as the notability reject template, and the NSFW template could easily be modified into a generic rejection template. If we need more templates than that, it will become clear as those two begin to be used, but those two should be enough to get started. I agree with SmokeyJoe's proposed criteria for use (Reviewer discretion, unsuitable topic with no hope at AfD). On a minor sidenote, I think the acronym NSFW is a bug, rather than a feature, and is just going to confuse and unnecessarily bite newbies. I'd change it to "Not suitable for inclusion" and drop the acronym. Tazerdadog (talk) 00:22, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Few reject templates, absolutely. I suggested exactly one. There are too many decline templates, they encourage communication-by-template and discourage real communication. Two reject templates, a template for notability, and a general reject template, OK, but no more. The general notability reject template would link to WP:N, no more. WP:N contains sufficient secondary links. The general reject template maybe link to WP:5P. No more. More words means less read it. "Ask for Advice"? Great, but remove the wikimarkup, remove the box, decrease the font. Big text in a box at the end tells the reader that they can skip all small text and go straight to the big text in the box. The NSFW is a good example for the simplicity desired, not a good example for the name, although I admit that I seem to be able to remember it. After posting a reject or decline template, the reviewer should then be encouraged to post any addition comments, untemplated, onto the draft talk page or the author's usertalk page. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:32, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Made from Tazerdadog's. Some cleaning required. Do not add more words or links. Reviewers can add comments to the draft talk page or the author's user talk page. We still need all new Wikipedia registrants to be autowelcomed. The template {{Welcome}} contains information and links that every newcomer should be offered *before* they do anything. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:48, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Looks good. I completely agree that the goal should be a firm "no" with as little wriggle room as possible. I have two comments: the template isn't forceful enough -- maybe some red text or background might help. My second comment is that you're dealing with editors who didn't bother familiarizing themselves with the purpose of this website. I strongly doubt they have the initiative to read about notability. You should be prepared for a flood of "Why was my piece of garbage rejected? Help me, I can't be arsed figuring out what an encyclopedia is before I started editing one!" type queries, which only serve to waste reviewer time. The rejection reason needs to stress that the problem can't be fixed. WP:5P is necessary reading; the general template does not have this problem. I've phrased things in terms of being "contrary to the purpose of Wikipedia", which has been used by {{uw-spamublock}} since I put it there over two years ago.
Oh, and change the templates that get posted to the submitter's talk page to remove the sugar, any encouragement to resubmit and the Teahouse invite. MER-C 20:29, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think forcefulness comes from simplicity. No. Save eye hurting colours and flashing big text for follow up messages later if you wish, I think that sort of thing reflects the reviewers’ frustration but does not increase effectiveness in communication. KISS. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:44, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I support the one just above that says "Submission rejected. This topic is not sufficiently notable for inclusion in Wikipedia.". Grey background or red, it doesn't matter much. Someone asked about the criteria for using this template instead of the normal decline templates; that is simple, use this template whenever you have done a full WP:BEFORE notability assessment and the topic has abysmally failed. Don't use this template just because the submission is awful or unsourced, 'rejecting' a topic should also require a search for additional sources to verify that the topic is not notable. In short this would change the way drafts are declined, creating a two tier system: Declining doesn't necessarily require assessment of the topic, only an assessment of the submission, while rejecting a topic with this new template requires that the reviewer fully assess the topic as we would at New Page Patrol, and determine that there is no way that it could qualify for an article at the present time. — Insertcleverphrasehere(or here) 22:56, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes! Harmonizing with NPP is a very good idea. This is an important step. "Reject" would correspond to a NPP decision to CSD#A*, or AfD, or PROD. "Decline" should correspond to a NPP decision to WP:Draftify. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:48, 25 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Enterprisey, can we work toward implementing this? A 'Reject' option which displays the above template as a hard decline. The option in the AFCH tools should remind users to do a notability search before using the hard decline 'reject' option. Do we need to have a !vote on this before implementing? — Insertcleverphrasehere(or here) 22:38, 26 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, I can absolutely start working on this. I would think anybody with objections to this idea would've voiced them in this thread, but I'll have this feature in beta for a while, so that'll of course result in a long comment period. Enterprisey (talk!) 20:44, 27 June 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm late to the discussion, but I have some thoughts about the templates:
Someone should fix the massive amount of whitespace between the rationale and the line about the reviewer (I took a look at it but didn't want to screw up the template syntax)
I've reworked the notability template a little bit. The three main changes are a whitespace removal, removing the line about the reviewer, and adding a second bullet point about the unfixability of notability issues. This change is big enough that I'm adding the template separately for comment. Tazerdadog (talk) 07:59, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
NO to the second dot point. More is not better, let alone a mere essay that overlaps and thus detracts from WP:N. The submitter, if they want to try again on that or another topic, needs to read WP:N. If you think that essay is so valuable, get it linked from WP:N. Adding the second line, with a second link, probably reduces by much more than half the chance that they’ll read either link, and the second more invites argument than understanding. The point of the reject is to say “no”. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:23, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How about "cannot be sufficiently notable"? MER-C 19:35, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Not sure what you mean. “This topic cannot be sufficiently notable”? What I think is important is that when an author submits something that is hopelessly non-notable, they receive a simple note pointing them to WP:N. WP:N is carefully crafted, AfC should not try to reproduce it. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:29, 5 July 2018 (UTC). AfC should NOT be duplicating the role or language of WP:N. A critical “not” missed, sorry. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:37, 8 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Cannot be notable" doesn't make sense. It might just be WP:TOOSOON. No to the second dot from me too. Smoky's template above looks great. Keep it simple. — Insertcleverphrasehere(or here) 10:42, 5 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Rejection templates being tested at Template:AFC submission/rejected/testcases. (Anyone should feel free to edit the /rejected template, I'm not too set on the current layout.) Adding it to the script now. Enterprisey (talk!) 20:13, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Can we drop the painful colouring and extraneous features and markup. Save the eye pain and ALL BOLD BLINK TEXT for recalcitrant resubmitter, but for a first submission, no thank you, Rejected, not suitable, KISS please. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:38, 14 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I changed the color back. The bold text is formatted the same way as every other AfC status template. It may stand out less if we were to add more text to the template, but I think the current one sentence is all we need. Enterprisey (talk!) 00:46, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For a simple single message (“rejected”), less is more. I suggest the general reject link only to WP:5P, and the notability reject link only to WP:N. The teahouse “ask for advice” is ok. Who rejected, and whys, any further comments, they should go on the talk page, though if there is a discussion to be had, that calls for a decline not a reject. A pale pink is at least much better than a burning red. Less box borders would be better, the markup and decorations are distractions from the route to WP:5P or WP:N. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:04, 15 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've been coding, and the beta version is nearly ready. I've also created a talk page template, located at {{Afc reject}}. I am not committed to the wording or layout, so please feel free to edit it. In particular, I'm not sure whether we should include a note somewhere along the lines of "do not resubmit the draft", since it feels a bit bitey to me. Feedback & thoughts are appreciated. Enterprisey (talk!) 22:54, 28 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed. Unfortunately, it has been rejected. Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer.
If you believe the draft cannot meet Wikipedia's standards or do not wish to progress it further, you may request deletion. Please go to the submission, click on the "Edit" tab at the top of the window, add "{{db-self}}" at the top of the draft text and click the blue "publish changes" button to save this edit.
Inserted to aid discussion Tazerdadog (talk) 01:08, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As I have commented many times,that is waywaywayway to wordy. They submit. The answer is "rejected". Give them one link, WP:N or WP:5P, and optionally the box for asking a question (at the teahouse). DO NOT use the word "resubmit" anywhere. If resubmission is at all a possibility, do not use "reject" but use "decline". If resubmission is not on the cards, why introduce the concept? KISS principle please.
Asking spammers and jokers to consider {{db-self}} is a complete waste of space. Links for help are all over the place, stop duplicating them. The more written the less likely it is to be read. The link to ask question at the teahouse is enough. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:51, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Way too bulky. The bullet for db-self should go, it's going to be ineffective and bitey. Similarly, we want to dump all of the people following up into one place, not split them up amongst the teahouse, IRC, and the reviewer's talk page. We should pick either the AFC help desk or the teahouse (my choice) and stick to it. Finally, your short paragraph at the top doesn't say a lot, and uses a lot of words to do it. Cut out the part about additional comments from the reviewer, it's rare that there will be advice that's both useful and specific to the draft. The top bit should be one sentence max, and more likely a phrase. Tazerdadog (talk) 01:04, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I removed a bunch of sentences. I agree with the help thing, although I feel like IRC can be very helpful, so I left that in along with the help desk. The reviewer has the option to add an invitation to the teahouse, of course. (Actually, come to think of it, it sounds like we should just pick one and link it in the body of the message, and then not send an additional teahouse box, but that's a discussion for another day.) Enterprisey (talk!) 03:53, 29 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A quick note while you wait for reject options to appear in the script -- the templates can be used manually:
{{AFC submission|d|e|reject=e|...}} for unencyclopedic submissions
{{AFC submission|d|n|reject=n|...}} for non-notability
See [1][2] for a couple of examples. MER-C 14:29, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
What should happen when an article is rejected using one of the above templates, and then resubmitted anyway? The way I see it, we have several options:
Reviewing the article:
Immediately re-reject it using the same reject template. No thought, no evaluation, 5 second review.
Do a quick skim of the draft to "sanity check" the rejection. If the rejection doesn't appear egregiously wrong, re-reject it.
Check the intervening edits between the first rejection and the current version. If the page hasn't radically shifted re-reject it.
Perform a full re-review, as if the reject template were any other decline template.
Additional actions:
Nominate the page for speedy deletion (G6)
Nominate the page for speedy deletion (some new criterion)
Let’s wait and see. I think that it won’t happen, and this is the main reason for a simple reject. The current declines are far from clear and many submitters don’t get the message. If resubmitted, firstly you know that the submitter has some wiki skill, they are not just pressing a big blue button. They may be right, the reviewer may have been wrong. Otherwise, the “tendentious resubmission” argument is actually sound, unlike presently as the decline template tells them to do it. It should be reviewed again, and sent to MfD if twice deserving flat rejection from two reviewers. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 10:27, 3 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Beta testing
I have uploaded a version of the script that has the "reject" option at User:Enterprisey/afch-dev.js. Install it just like any other user script. Remember to disable the gadget in the preferences before using the beta version. I also put in multiple decline reasons for fun, since I had the code there already. Comments and bug reports are welcome, especially concerning the user interface. (I went back and forth a bit about making it a separate button in the main menu vs the current option-based interface; let me know which one you prefer.) Enterprisey (talk!) 06:55, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't want to derail the conversation above regarding a firm "not suitable" decline template, and I think the "workshop" for decline reasons was a bit too decentralized, so I'm going to start it in small chunks. The first to tackle (quite rightly) is the "notability" family. All of our decline notices are essentially the same, and follow the following format:
This submission's references do not adequately show the subject's notability. Wikipedia requires significant coverage (not just mere mentions) about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject—see the <insert SNG link here>, the golden rule and learn about mistakes to avoid when addressing this issue. Please improve the submission's referencing (see Wikipedia:Referencing for beginners and Help:Introduction to referencing/1), so that the information is verifiable, and there is clear evidence of why the subject is notable and worthy of inclusion in an encyclopedia. If additional reliable sources cannot be found for the subject, then it may not be suitable for Wikipedia at this time.
Almost everyone agrees this needs to be shortened. The various SNGs should obviously be linked to, but what else is the "vital" information that needs to be included? Primefac (talk) 14:19, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For starters, delete the entire last two sentences, replace with:
Articles without at least two sources meeting all of the above criteria are not suitable for Wikipedia.
(Someone may wish to weaken the language a little bit and throw the links about how to reference back in). —Compassionate727(T·C) 17:43, 4 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
How about this....
This submission's references do not show that the subject qualifies for a Wikipedia article—that is, they do not show significant coverage (not just passing mentions) about the subject in published, reliable, secondary sources that are independent of the subject (see the <insert SNG link here>). Before any resubmission, additional references meeting these criteria should be added (see technical help). If no additional references exist, the subject is not suitable for Wikipedia.
Thoughts? I'm not sure about the "at least two" suggestion, because one good source is sometimes be sufficient for acceptance, and sometimes two sources aren't enough. Calliopejen1 (talk) 14:51, 7 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It would be good for NCORP with its stricter requirements Nosebagbear (talk) 20:51, 11 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No opposition; implemented. Primefac (talk) 16:16, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
drafttopic added to afc-ores
Just a heads up, I've added drafttopic (Topic guessing via ORES) to User:SQL/AFC-Ores. Might help people match up with topics of interest to work on. If it says "Best guess", it means ORES could not determine what the most likely topic was, so I used the top 2 by confidence%. SQLQuery me! 01:01, 22 July 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This is extremely useful for picking out obvious copyright violations and advertising. Thanks! — Newslingertalk 15:19, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Is NPP required or recommended? I'm interested in joining this project, but I don't have that right, and I was wondering if it was worth going to WP:PERM before going here. Thanks! LittlePuppers (talk) 20:42, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
No need to have it. Most AFC reviewers don't actually have the NPP ('patroller') tag. All that tag lets you do is mark new pages (whether entirely new, or just moved to mainspace from a draft or other) as patrolled. As I recall you can't mark pages as patrolled that you moved to mainspace yourself anyway, so if you had the patroller tag, all you'd be doing with it at AFC is patrolling moves done by other reviewers. Someguy1221 (talk) 23:34, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Some of us think it should be, that NPP and AfC should be harmonised. Some counter that a bad AfC accept will be caught by NPP, but I argue that if you cannot get the NPP right, you are not suitable for AfC reviewing. You look probably OK to me. I suggest you go to Wikipedia:Requests for permissions/New page reviewer and see what they say. AfC handles a lot of junk, but junk aside, at AfC you can do a lot of damage to a newcomer. I don't think that AfC should be considered a stepping stone to NPP. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:47, 1 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yeah, as others have said, having NPP is definitely not a requirement for AfC, or vice versa, although I'm pretty sure there have been a few discussions about merging the two somehow. In response to SmokeyJoe, I have noticed that admins seem to be more picky about who they accept at NPP than they are for AfC. I personally am a bit doubtful that if I requested for NPR at PERM it would be accepted, although it is a right that would probably be useful for me.--SkyGazer 512Oh no, what did I do this time? 00:06, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You both are relatively new Wikipedians. For NPR, you initially look OK, but the WP:AfD stats for LittlePuppers and SkyGazer 512 are both very small. I recommend that you both do more participation at AfD before AfC. AfD is a group exercise, and if you have any misconceptions they'll be more apparent than in the relatively sole activities of AfC and NPP. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:37, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Oh, I probably should've mentioned - I'm actually already an AfC reviewer. :P Honestly, I didn't realize I had so little of AfD voting participation according to the stats, I feel like I'm very involved with AfD - I guess that's because I close and relist AfDs quite often.--SkyGazer 512Oh no, what did I do this time? 00:48, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Okay, thank you all for the advice. I'll work on getting more involved in AfD in the near future. Is there more of a backlog here or at NPP, or do both have considerable backlogs? LittlePuppers (talk) 01:12, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Both seem to have considerable backlogs. It would certainly be nice to have more users participating in clearing both backlogs.--SkyGazer 512Oh no, what did I do this time? 01:13, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@SkyGazer 512: You can actually patrol pages you move to mainspace. I always do it after accepting a draft. L293D (☎ • ✎) 01:43, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@L293D: It was actually Someguy1221 who had said that they didn't think that it was possible, although that is interesting to know for me as well. Of course, it doesn't matter for me at the moment, as I don't have NPR rights.--SkyGazer 512Oh no, what did I do this time? 01:49, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I checked again: I just accepted Brain-body interaction and then I patrolled it (proof). And also, SG, I would recommend you apply at WP:PERM/NPP as you meet the standards for granting and the NPP backlog is constantly growing. I know it can be frustrating there with stuff from three months ago dug up, but hopefully you should do it. L293D (☎ • ✎) 01:57, 2 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not surprised the system let you self-patrol but given the split opinion, can it be confirmed either way whether NPP reviewers are supposed to (I suppose it sort of depends whether drafts are supposed to have two sets of eyes or "just" an AfC and a NPP reviewer, who could be the same person)? Nosebagbear (talk) 14:52, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You can't patrol an article you've created, but you can patrol an article you've moved. That said, you probably shouldn't patrol articles you move to mainspace. I've found several new articles that went through AfC that ended up deleted. If you think this doesn't apply to you, it does. Sorry, but everyone is fallible. Natureium (talk) 14:59, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It does seem wise to do it that way, I suspect if I pick up NPP rights at some stage I'll probably leave it - unless their backlog (which proportionately seems less bad than ours, atm) becomes massive where any reduction is beneficial, it doesn't seem to have any negative associated. Nosebagbear (talk) 15:41, 3 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There is no rule that an AFC reviewer cannot patrol the new article after they've approved the draft. However, just like most admins will tag a page for speedy deletion and let a second admin "approve" it before deletion, an AFC reviewer should probably let a different NPR actually do the patrolling. This increases the odds that a new page will be seen by more than one person. Primefac (talk) 15:57, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My AfC reviews are better than my NPP reviews. I try to remember to NPP patrol drafts before I accept them. An AfC accept by should really NPP the page. Maybe someday we will get there. Legacypac (talk) 22:16, 4 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I've said elsewhere that we should indeed have such a rule here that a AfC reviewer must not mark patrolled. It's good for someone else to check. It improves accuracy and provides for review and audit. (It's been difficult to do this as a fixed rule for speedy deletion, because some cases ought to be removed immediately as soon as noticed, and in many routine cases (e.g. G7) a second review isn't worth the trouble, while it's proven hard to specify exactly what should be exempted.) But here there is no reason whatsoever that there would be harm done by not having a second person look. NPP doesn't take as long as AfC, because it is not necessary to give detailed reasons and reply to questions. DGG ( talk ) 03:07, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Review for June AFC reviewers
The following users have been reviewing for about one month out of their two-month probationary period.
If you have constructive criticism for these users (specifically regarding their draft reviewing), please list it below so that they can improve their reviewing. If there are no issues then they will be considered full members in good standing at the end of August. Primefac (talk) 05:58, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
There's a new beta version of the script out at User:Enterprisey/afch-dev.js with reject reasons and multiple reasons. Install it just like any other user script, and remember to disable the gadget in the preferences before use. Bug reports and comments, especially concerning the user interface, are welcomed. Enterprisey (talk!) 06:57, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
User:Enterprisey - How do I enable the script? And is its benefit that it allows me to do a hard decline as well as a soft decline? I see that I can use multiple reasons without enabling the script. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:07, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The script can be enabled by placing {{subst:iusc|User:Enterprisey/CustomSummaryPresets.js}} on a new line on Special:MyPage/common.js. You also have to disable the AFCH gadget in the preferences, as they interfere. I'm not sure how multiple reasons made it into the main gadget, since I'm pretty sure they weren't there before, but so long as it's not too buggy I'm fine with it. Enterprisey (talk!) 00:16, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Robert McClenon oops, my bad, I meant afch-dev. You should edit your common.js page and replace CustomSummaryPresets with afch-dev. Sorry about that. Enterprisey (talk!) 01:45, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure how I edit that. Do I go to common.js, or what? Please explain. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:12, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Robert McClenon, on a new line in your common.js page, write:
importScript( 'User:Enterprisey/afch-dev.js' );
and then turn off the "Yet Another AFC Helper Script" gadget in your preferences. Enterprisey (talk!) 21:24, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see how to turn off the Yet Another AFCH Helper Script. Please advise. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:12, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Go to your preferences, click the gadgets tab, scroll down to the editing section, and uncheck the fifth box from the bottom (labelled "Yet Another AFC Helper Script: easily review Articles for creation submissions, Files for Upload, redirect and category requests"). —Compassionate727(T·C) 02:15, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
User:Enterprisey - Thank you. It works fine. I have verified that Reject works because there were two clueless submissions. I would like to see more options on Reject, such as one for blatant promotion that is tagged G11, but that is a minor issue. It works and is useful. Robert McClenon (talk) 23:13, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@Robert McClenon: I'd use the "contrary to the purpose of Wikipedia" option for that. MER-C 17:37, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Okay. I have declined them rather than rejected them, indicating that they read like advertisements (and whatever else is wrong), but then tag them as G11. It doesn't matter if you can resubmit something that has been speedied. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:56, 8 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
MER-C's general rejection of Draft:Beatrice Sargin I would call incorrect. It is not contrary to 5P. It is a good faith submission for an article on someone who doesn't meet WP:PROF.
20:07, 16 July 2018 Bearcat (talk·contribs) moved page Beatrice Sargin to Draft:Beatrice Sargin over a redirect without leaving a redirect (article must be submitted for review through the AFC process; you do not have the right to simply move it into articlespace yourself without review.)
I ask that this be put back into mainspace and AfD-ed. This draftification - rejection is an unacceptable speedy deletion method functioning as an end run around WP:DEL. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:02, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@SmokeyJoe: The reason why that reject message is there, is for comedic effect. I will happily remove if you want me to. I was not trying to be disruptive, it was only for a comedic effect. Thank you. The Duke of NonsenseWhat is necessary for thee? 08:32, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I blocked both creators (Pflynn45, Noona Noona) for covert advertising (both confirmed). MER-C 09:08, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
MER-C, let’s assume that was a reasonable decision, egregious covert advertising meaning block and reject their drafts. They can appeal the block, and revisit the rejected draft very easily for six months, so that seems fine. The problem is transparency, or clarity in the record. Despite being loath to see many variations arising on the simple concept of “reject”, I suggest this needs a “reject for covert advertising or ToU UPE violation” or something like that? —SmokeyJoe (talk) 09:26, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Can we roll that into a general reject for promotional content? Many promotional AFC submissions also likely have undisclosed conflicts of interest. How about "Wikipedia does not accept marketing, public relations or promotional material" or "Editing Wikipedia for marketing, public relations, publicity or promotional purposes is prohibited"? The phrasing needs to discourage "I've (trivially) rewritten this, it's not promotional" type resubmissions. If not, just use the UPE template wording or reject using the existing "contrary to the purpose of Wikipedia" reason and add the UPE template. MER-C 12:46, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think no, don't roll completely separate things together. I now see three frequent types of submission that deserve outright rejection.
(1) Completely unsuitable topic, not even imaginably a serious idea for an encyclopedia article. Intended for what looks like nonsense and tests. WP:5P is the best reference.
(2) Definitely not notable, not even nearly maybe. In the opinion of the review, the topic looks decidedly non-notable, not amount of editiing can fix that, the sources are inadequate. The starting page for the explanation is WP:N. Specific nuances, and detailed explanations for particular topics all step downstream from WP:N. Let the newcomer start at WP:N.
(3) Covert advertising? WP:PAID violation? Are these the same? When the draft is promotional (but not G11-elibible, because G11 consideration should come first) and the author is decided to be a WP:PAID-violating covert advertiser, it is of course appropriate to "reject", and not appropriate to give them a "resubmit" button. A critical factor here, I think, is that the author is blocked. Do you agree, User:MER-C? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:31, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. It's not in the script. MER-C 10:34, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The new reject template seems to be working pretty well. However, the talk page notice could be improved. Because my comment is placed inline with the rest of the message (after "The comment the reviewer left was:"), it's not very easy to read. The comment should be placed in a gray box like the decline template. Also, it would be nice if there were an option to tag the draft for speedy deletion while rejecting it. When a draft meets speedy deletion criteria, it makes much more sense to reject it than to decline it, since the editor would be wasting their time if they tried to submit it again. Thanks for the excellent work so far! — Newslingertalk 19:48, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Wholeheartedly agree on this one. Speedy deletion = a stronger form of rejection. MER-C 10:34, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
On another note, can someone figure out a way to get rid of all the resubmit buttons on Draft:Parmish Verma? MER-C 10:34, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't see any resubmit buttons; they're all marked |small=yes which hides that. Also, for future reference, if you use AFCH to "Clean submission" it will move all of the comments under the decline notices automatically. Primefac (talk) 13:30, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Multiple Options on Decline
I would like to thank whoever has implemented multiple decline options on a decline. This had been on my wish list for at least a year. Many submissions can be declined for multiple reasons, such as lack of corporate notability and a promotional tone, and it is good to be able to check off everything that either needs improving or is just wrong. Thank you. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:43, 5 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
You're welcome! It did take a bit of time but I'm happy about how it turned out. Enterprisey (talk!) 00:17, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And here I'd been cursing my prior self for being so stupid for not working out you could do it earlier :S In any case, thanks so much for putting it in, it's much neater and effective than hoping they also read the comment below to list the other aspects Nosebagbear (talk) 16:44, 6 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
06:13:26, 7 August 2018 review of submission by SportingFlyer
The creator of this page created the same page in mainspace a month later. I'm a new reviewer here and am not sure what the proper protocol is in this instance. Notability is difficult to assess in this case since it's a fairly fringe sport/championship. SportingFlyertalk 06:13, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
AfC drafts in New Pages Feed available for testing
Hi AfC reviewers -- I'm Marshall Miller; I'm a product manager at WMF working on a project to make it easier to prioritize AfC and NPP pages for review by adding AfC drafts to the New Pages Feed along with ORES and copyvio scores. Though I've been posting weekly updates on the project page, I last posted here in May. I'm posting again because this project has reached a milestone: it's now possible to test our progress so far using the Test Wiki. All reviewers are invited to try out the evolving New Pages Feed before any changes come to English Wikipedia, so we can make sure to resolve important issues before they affect the encyclopedia. Thank you, and we'll look for any feedback on the project's talk page or in Phabricator. -- MMiller (WMF) (talk) 19:28, 7 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Link to "significant coverage" in decline message
I've noticed that the decline message in the submission template doesn't provide a link for the "significant coverage" phrase. This phrase should be linked to WP:SIGCOV for all notability categories (except for non-notable corporations and organizations, which should have a link to WP:CORPDEPTH). The link should clarify the sourcing requirements, especially for businesses. — Newslingertalk 14:03, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Messages should not link to SIGCOV in the first communications with a newcomer. Links should go to WP:N, i.e. to the top of the page. It is not a good idea to send newcomers to start reading a beginner-intended guideline (WP:N) from anywhere but the top of the document. Years and years and gigabytes of talk have gone into finessing that page, and as bad as it is, its current state is considered the best we can do. Save SIGCOV, which really should be the WP:GNG shortcut to use, for editors displaying selective blindness. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:12, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This person seems to be of importance in Indian diplomatic domain. Should it be accepted in its current state? Developments might happen once it is in the mainspace. What say? Dial911 (talk) 15:37, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Doesn't look like WP:BIO covers this but there is WP:DIPLOMAT which leads me to believe an ambassador from India to multiple important countries would WP:LIKELY survive a deletion discussion. ~Kvng (talk) 00:03, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Suggestion: self-catagorization
It would be useful if the article creation wizard had a screen where people could self-select a broad category. Perhaps offer them the list from Category:Main topic classifications. Then, as a reviewer, I could only review things I was interested in and/or knowledgeable about. I think that would make reviewing more efficient. -- RoySmith(talk) 16:20, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
For what it's worth, categorization should be done with {{draft|subject=X|catonly=yes}} to avoid it being flagged for DRAFTNOCAT errors. Primefac (talk) 16:33, 9 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
@RoySmith: I just wanted to flag that this was an idea that was discussed pretty positively in the lead up to this project. The group discussed both allowing the author to indicate a topic, or using the new ORES topic model. We ultimately pursued other ideas, but there is still some good discussion in there for reference. -- MMiller (WMF) (talk) 16:08, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for the pointer. I'll spend some time reading. -- RoySmith(talk) 19:34, 10 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
More than Two Decline Reasons?
It appears that I am limited to two reasons for a decline with the new AFCH script. This is better than it was. Is there a reason why I can't provide three or four decline reasons? Am I supposed to Reject it if there are that many reasons?
I didn't think anyone would want to use that many reasons, although I'd be happy to add that ability. We should definitely get around to writing official guidelines for the use of Reject, now that you mention it. Enterprisey (talk!) 21:05, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If there are a lot of problems with a submission, in addition to decline, you can slap some cleanup tags on it. ~Kvng (talk) 23:57, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
iTunes
This isn't about the test script, and it is both about AFC and NPP, but I encounter it at AFC. Sometimes a submitter lists iTunes as a source. I have assumed that it is considered an unreliable or user-driven source because it will list anybody who has published any musical work, at least one that is available via iTunes,and is thus like using Amazon as a source for a book. Am I correct that iTunes is an unreliable source, and that drafts can be declined for that reason (and others)? Robert McClenon (talk) 20:55, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
It probably more of a WP:PRIMARY source than an unreliable one. All-inclusive directories like this and IMDB can't be used as evidence of notability but they are sometimes used to verify information in the article so they don't need to be removed. There just needs to be at least a couple other references to establish notability. ~Kvng (talk) 23:56, 11 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
IMDB is considered user generated, and therefore largely unreliable (see WP:CITINGIMDB). I would guess that Apple has more oversight of iTunes, so they would probably be a good primary source. LittlePuppers (talk) 03:18, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have always removed itunes.apple links because they are nothing but sales pages similar to Amazon. Remove on sight. Primefac (talk) 05:10, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Blank Submissions
Can we please change the wording of the 'blank' decline reason? I see a lot of blank submissions, and I won't use the 'blank' reason for declining them, because it assumes that a blank submission is a Requested Article about the title, and that is not what the blank submissions are. Sometimes they have a title, and sometimes they don't, being empty sandboxes. In any case, they are either tests, or just clueless. Rather than saying to use Requested Articles (which is a black hole anyway), it should say something to the effect that if you were trying to create a draft and having difficulty, you should ask for help at the Teahouse or the Help Desk. (That is what I add in the comments.) The blank submissions are not requested articles. They are mistakes of some sort by users who may need help. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:24, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
First, I think Contrary to the Purposes of Wikipedia is harsh, and I don't want to use it except on stuff like attack pages or libel or polemics. Can there be something a little less harsh that it is still harsh enough for a rejection, such as WP:NOT as a grounds for decline?
Also, although I very much dislike Wiki-spam, I don't see Contrary to the Purpose as the best Reject grounds for G11 stuff. As a result, I decline it with 'adv' (and a notability reason or a sourcing reason) and tag it for G11.
I appreciate having a Reject option, but I won't be using it much until the reasons are expanded to include Advertising (more specific than Contrary). I haven't seen much stuff that is hopeless on notability, but will gladly reject something that is hopeless, like some autobiographies. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:24, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
General contrary to purposes should be used for complete junk, jokes, NOTFACEBOOK style posts from nice people. G11 should be considered first. If G11 tagging, why do anything else. Reject should be considered as similar to a blunt rejection as completely unsuitable and a 6-months PROD deletion. It should be used for contributions from authors who have negligible chance of every contributing usefully. The sort of stuff that has been sent to MfD and SNOW deleted (except for the procedural objections) for the past four years. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:08, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The reason why I either Reject or more commonly Decline G11 is to get them out of the category of being tagged for review. If I tag something as G11, I would like to get it out of the review category so that other reviewers don't have to see it for the next hour until the admin comes along. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:32, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the first consideration should be G11. But it applies only when the article would have to be very substantially rewritten to be acceptable, not where there is a section of promotionalism that can be easily removed. I particularly use it where the subject is also very likely not to be notable enough for a WP article, because otherwise there is more of a possibility for rewriting--for a non notable subject there is usually intrinsically no real possibility of improving the article, for there will nothing much to say except advertising. A virtue of using G11 is that it serves to prevent restoring the article on request--I will sometimes add it as a deletion reason to a G13 for that purpose. DGG ( talk ) 01:50, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with User:DGG that G11 should only be used if the entire article is promotional, and not a paragraph that can be cut. I mostly use it on short submissions that are essentially stubs when there is no real case for notability. However, I will also either Decline or Reject the draft in addition to tagging it, just so that another reviewer doesn't encounter it before the deleting admin. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:55, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Rejection Comments?
I have more than once tried to leave comments in the comments box when Rejecting a draft, but the comments do not get included. I think that the ability for the reviewer to leave comments is important, because the comments may explain why the subject is not notable or why it is inconsistent with Wikipedia. Is this a bug, which can be corrected, or is this a misfeature, that comments are only permitted on Decline (in which case the design should be fixed), or am I doing something wrong? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:28, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Probably a bug, will check it out. Enterprisey (talk!) 23:42, 12 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I think you have entirely missed the point of "reject". If there is any point in continuing discussion with the author, you should use decline. You may wish to leave warning/wecomes on the author's talk page, but the point of "reject" for a draft is that it has no serious merit whatsoever, the author is a complete waste of time. If this is not the level, use the decline options. Also, custom comments go on a talk page. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:04, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
User:SmokeyJoe - No, no, no. Perhaps you have missed something. I have not missed the point of Reject. I am not sitting on a throne making arbitrary rulings, but am deliberately applying Wikipedia policies and guidelines and common sense, and if I reject a draft, it is common courtesy for me to explain, both to the submitter and to other editors, WHY the draft is a complete waste of time. I have issues with the guideline Do not bite the newbies, because it has become a commandment that overrides common sense, but you seem to be advocating biting the submitter by simply rejecting their submission without further explanation. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:13, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Indeed. You barely contributed anything to the "reject" threads, and now you are on a completely different track. The point, big fat and bold, was that the decline templates were too soft, too wordy, and completely inappropriate for things that did not deserve a response, let along the saccharine encouragement to edit improve and resubmit. When someone throws an egg through your window and runs away, do you put up a sign where they through it from explaining why throwing that egg in your window was not the right thing to do and where to go to ask questions about better neighborliness?
I didn't take part in the discussion of Reject because I agreed with the concept. The comparison to throwing an egg is silly. That is malicious. Rejected drafts are not usually malicious. They are usually clueless. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Rejected" Link WP:5P. Is perfect for authors you may want to BITE but shouldn't.
"Rejected" Link WP:N. Is perfect for authors submitting on their high school teacher, etc. It was probably a joke, and linking to WP:N is not really a BITE.
If you feel the submission is a waste of time, but something makes you feel that some of your time and effort might be well spent giving advice to the author, good for you. Do it by all means. However, that is not the design expectation of the blunt "reject", and I see you asking the coders to start bloating up the simple reject option.
I am not advocating biting, but advocating keeping you mouth shut when dealing with time wasters. Every extra word after "reject" serves to weaken the message of the word "reject". --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:39, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Asking the coders to make the "reject" option behave as the interface would suggest, whether by changing the feature or changing the interface, is completely reasonable. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:09, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Asking the coders to turn the template oxymoronic is not reasonable. A "reject" notice is not an invitation to stay and chat. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:14, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The comment is not meant to be addressed to the author but to the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Your position on wanting to comment to the community is unexpected. I didn’t think a comment on the draft page or draft talk page would be considered a comment to the community. I don’t know in the community who you expect to read these comments and would expect them to mostly be deleted before being read by anyone but the author. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:16, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And if the coders agree with you, the interface should not provide an option to both reject and comment. Someguy1221 (talk) 02:22, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And I happen to disagree strongly with SmokeyJoe. The reviewer should be able to comment to the community. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
A reject on the draft, and a comment to the author's talk page, might be a good idea? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:34, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
User:SmokeyJoe - Also, what do you mean about custom comments? There is a feature in the AFCH script to add comments to a draft article in addition to Decline comments. Perhaps you didn't know that because you don't review drafts, but reserve the right to dump on the reviewers who do review drafts. There has been discussion of moving those comments to the article talk page, but at present they go on the draft page, and are stripped out by the Accept script if the draft is accepted. Please, before commenting on how AFC review should be done, learn a little about how AFC review is done. Comments can be entered via Comment or in a Decline, and they go on the draft page, but are stripped out on acceptance. Robert McClenon (talk) 01:13, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I thought I installed the AFCH thing, but it didn't seem to be working. I should try again. I've looked at submitted drafts, and not seen things that I wish to spend my time on, and if I can't process them quickly, with the script working, then I probably shouldn't bother trying. I try to do NPP when I am in this mood, I find that with NPP, at least every page is sincerely wanted to be in mainspace by the author. Custom comments are comments that are better considered communication between humans and should not be templated. Wikipedia has talk pages, and these are the natural places for people to talk to each other. Inside coloured boxed templates is a terrible place to pretend to hold a conversation. If it is not a conversation, what is it? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:44, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that draft talk pages would be an even better place for comments. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
At least having the option to leave an explanatory comment when leaving a reject review should be considered a core feature. Our templates are not perfect, and cannot anticipate very situation. Reviewers have to be able to leave a comment when there is more that needs to be said on a draft. Tazerdadog (talk) 01:56, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with User:Tazerdadog that it should be a core feature. If SmokeyJoe wants to put the comment on the DRAFT talk page, okay, but the comment is not primarily for the author, but for the community. Tazerdog is right that there should be the ability to explain things. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Such a comment belongs on the author's user_talk page. A rejected draft should be assumed to be a pathway to G13 deletion. At the usertalk page, the conversation could nicely turn to discussing interesting mainspace articles for the newcomer to edit, or more appropriate topics. These conversations should be kept, not deleted with the rejected draft. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 02:12, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The comment should not go on the author's talk page. The comment is for the community, explaining why I have rejected the document. In my opinion, the reviewer should have the ability to explain to the community why the draft is crud. Maybe you think that that is too much and that the community should read the reviewer's mind, or that the reviewer should have to explain again when someone challenges the rejection. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The way it works for declining, the comment goes on both the draft and the author's user talk page. (It used to be just the former until I changed it by community request.) Are you saying it shouldn't be that way for rejection? Because I was thinking of making rejection behave the same way. Enterprisey (talk!) 17:27, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would like it to work that way for rejection also, to go on the draft and on the author's talk page. I think that SmokeyJoe is in a minority, maybe a minority of one, and has an eccentric, and, in my opinion, crabbed, view that Rejection should not be explained to the community. Maybe the community should read the reviewer's mind. I think that Rejection should work similarly to Decline, except that Rejection is final. Robert McClenon (talk) 20:20, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
In other words, User:SmokeyJoe, you want to make it harder for the reviewer, by forcing them to comment separately to the talk page, in order to make it harder for the author of the crud. Useful? Robert McClenon (talk) 16:28, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure what this comment is about. "Reject" is meant to be finality. Why is that hard? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:28, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Nothing is truly final in Wikipedia. Clueless users are likely to ask stupid questions about why their drafts were rejected, and other editors who deal with the clueless user may recommend a competence block. The more information the reviewer provides, the less after-discussion there is likely to be. It is hard because you are arguing that something is truly final in Wikipedia, and nothing else is truly final. Robert McClenon (talk) 00:23, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My point, my offered opinion, is that the author of a useless submission should be give exactly one route for continuing the discussion, and that the "Ask a question" box link to the Teahouse served that purpose well. More words, more options, obfuscates more than helps. If you offer an explanation that duplicates the information at WP:N or WP:5P, then you are inviting them to engage with you in some random place, and I suggest that you may often give a worse explanation that the well-worked text at WP:N or WP:5P. Less is more. KISS. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:13, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I have no issue with reject comments going both on the draft_talk page and the author’s user_talk page. The draft and draft_talk page will be auto-deleted, the user_talk page is the only page the comments will be permanently recorded. Putting comments on the draft page proper diminishes the simplicity and clarity of the “Rejected” message, and invites contorted debate about the rejection. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:12, 13 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Where to Put the AFC Comments
There are two separate issues here. The first, on which everyone but SmokeyJoe seems to agree, is that the reviewer who Rejects a draft should be able to enter comments that go where comments go. At present, that is the draft page and the user talk page. I think that we can agree on that. The second, which has to do with the existing functionality of AFC, is whether comments should go on the draft page (to be removed on acceptance) or on the draft talk page, to be permanent (unless archived or deleted). I think that the draft talk page, which will become the article talk page if accepted, is better, but this is long-existing functionality and should not be changed without deliberation. I think that we are in agreement (except maybe SmokeyJoe) that the omission of the comments on a Reject is just a bug and can be fixed. Serious discussion is in order about whether putting the comments on the draft rather than the draft talk page is an existing misfeature. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:45, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comments don't belong at the top of pages. Wikipedia did that early in 2001, but soon developed the talk age concept. Every page has a talk page. Comments about a page go on the talk page. Comments particular to a person go on a usertalk page. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:28, 14 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I would prefer that the AFC comments go to the talk page, but, since this is an established misfeature, it should not be changed without discussion. (Another established misfeature was the Teahouse top-posting. That was changed, but only after adequate discussion.) Robert McClenon (talk) 00:23, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
If comments were to go on the talk page, I think we both would be happier. I think it would better prepare the author to understanding how pages and talk page work everywhere on Wikipedia. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 01:13, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Robert is bang-on here. Tazerdadog (talk) 01:52, 15 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Please comment. Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 18:23, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
AFC Comments
If I use the AFC Comment capability to leave comments about an article, it puts the comments on the draft page, and puts a statement on the author's talk page saying that there are comments. It does not put the actual comments on the talk page. This means that the comments are lost if the draft is accepted. Is there a reason why the comments are not put on the user talk page? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:22, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
As noted above, I think that it would be better if comments in general went on the talk page, where they will survive acceptance, but that is a change to functionality that requires thoughtful discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:22, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree that the best place for discussion/templates on any given draft is the draft talk page. Most of the information should be moved there to maintain consistency - We use the talk page in this way everywhere else on Wikipedia. That said, I'd like the top of the draft page itself to contain a few pieces of information without needing to click over to the talk pages.
1) A link to the draft talk page if and only if there's something to read there (a human-written message or a template that's intended for the author to read for example.) This can be along the lines of a talkback template with somewhat altered text.
2) A summary of the status of the draft (submitted, declined, rejected, never submitted). In particular, I'd like to know if I'm looking at a page where I need to be considering a MFD, so repeated rejections and perhaps declines should show up in some form.
We could always write a user script to summarize the information on the draft talk page in icon form, and display it at the top. Or, we could just transclude the draft talk page on the top of the draft page, if we wish to retain the old behavior for everyone (might be a bad solution of course). Enterprisey (talk!) 03:53, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The reason why the comments are put on the draft is because the practice began when draft pages were by default subpages of WT:AFC. I support comments going on talk pages. I support the option of comments going on the usertalk page, or the drafttalk page, or both. Comments in one place, with a pointer from the other, might be better than duplicated comments in both. I think these things should be seriously considered for functionality upgrade. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:47, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I agree with Tazerdog in the desirability of the status of the draft (submitted, declined, rejected, never submitted) going on the top of the draft. Ease of coding allowing, it would be nice if the tag counted the times submitted, declined, and rejected. "Submitted 0 times" could replace "never submitted". Judging from my many reviews of multiply declined drafts submitted to MfD, I think it would be great if a second decline auto-generated a message for the author (on their talk page), stating that they should consider asking questions instead of repeatedly submitting. For asking questions, the author should probably be pointed to the single location of the Wikipedia:Teahouse, and other ways to ask questions should be described at that location. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:47, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I feel comments at the top of the draft page are more helpful at actually being resolved. Regarding the "survive acceptance of draft", I can see the point. In an ideal world part of the acceptance process would shift the comments to the talk page at that point, but I'm aware that might be a fiddly change for limited gain. Nosebagbear (talk) 15:42, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The ongoing miscommunication that directly and solely derives from the mistake of putting comments on the top of the draft.
Have a look. Have a good look, and you'll see a history of wasted efforts through failing communication. The author thinks that the top of the draft is the place to have a conversation. In time, this draft will be deleted. The evidence of gross miscommunication will be lost, Please stop putting comments on the top of drafts. The newcomers need the comments to be in a place where editors talk to each other. Put them on the talk page, or the user_talk page. So, the tools need to be changed, or the reviewers have to do manual comments, kind of like we do here. Please stop putting comments on the draft page. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:06, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. In the above case, the author misunderstood that AFC comments are provided by a special mechanism, and put their comments at the top of the draft by plain editing. That misunderstanding sometimes happens, not just this time; it isn't that unusual. At this time, because the author is trying too hard to communicate with the reviewer, they have made the draft worse than it had been (and it hadn't been good), being mostly addressed to the reviewer. User:SmokeyJoe is right that this is partly the result of AFC putting comments on the draft page itself, and it illustrates why it is a mistake. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:36, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks Robert. I have just made my first use of the afch tool. (it appeared today, about four weeks after I expected it). I commented at Draft:Abanindra Maitra. I see the attraction of using the big yellow "comment" button. Yellow is such a happy colour. It is very easy for the reviewer to type the comment. After commenting, however, the comment was embedded in a template that camouflaged it. I reckon most non-reviewers who look at the page fail to see it. I moved the comment to the author's talk page, because I think there is much much more chance of the reviewer reading it there. I might have moved it to the draft_talk page if I thought there was much hope of the page being improvable to accept-level. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:45, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Assistance requested. It appears that User:SmokeyJoe did something that removed the {{NSFW}} tag from the draft. I assume that he did not do that on purpose. Can someone explain or resolve this? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:44, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
This seems to be a side effect of copying the comment to the user talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 15:46, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The removal of your placed NSFW template happened with my use of the afch tool to make a comment, here. That removal was unknown to me and unintended, and I guess a bug? I note in passing that the NSFW template was buried enough that it wouldn't be read, defeating the purpose of its simplicity. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:55, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I don't mean to bury the template. If there is some magic rule about what buries it, please let me know so that I can avoid it. I always mean to leave the template in plain view, and I check after declining that the template is in plain view. Robert McClenon (talk) 16:09, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Rejection Question
I am now seeing submissions that I would like to Reject. I have a question for any reviewer who is willing to consider why I am asking. I can't say anything to explain a rejection, since any comments that I put in the Comments space are ignored. How should I provide any explanation or justification of why I am rejecting a draft? Am I supposed to go through the first stage of Commenting, which does record my comments? (I am aware of one editor here who, to the best of my knowledge, is not a reviewer, who thinks that Rejected should be final and should not be explained. Nothing is truly final in Wikipedia.) Robert McClenon (talk) 22:27, 20 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Ease up on the snide would you?
Would you rather that I just say that your idea is wrong-headed? Because it is wrong-headed. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:39, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Definitely, yes. And necessarily please be explicit about which idea. I think you are objecting to an unintended reading of what I wrote. I put forward many ideas. Which idea is wrong headed. The Reject tag idea was that there should be a simple reject option for submissions that don't deserve further comment. I think you wrongly extrapolated that I think rejection must not be accompanied by a comment. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:59, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The reject template was proposed and discussed at length without attention to this issue.
Was there agreement that, unlike a decline, the reject template would prompt the reviewer for comments but discard them, or was there agreement that the reject template, unlike decline, would not support comments? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:39, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The "reject" option should be generally consider the final act for a wholly unsuitable draft, especially when from a WP:NOTHERE author. Of course, nothing is truly, necessarily, final. I can immediately think of a number of possibilities for why a rejected draft might go on to end up accepted in mainspace. Improbably, but possible. They are reasons why "bad draft" is not a CSD criterion.
Justifications can go in a number of places, including: The edit summary; the talk page; the author's talk page. The issue appears similar to CSD taggings, where WP:Twinkle doesn't invite you to add a justification in its GUI. For CSD tags, you can go back and add a reason in the CSD template, or on the talk page, or on the author's talk page. Comments in the template or on the tagged page's talk page will probably be deleted without being read.
Are you wanting a tool-facilitated comment/justification method?
I have no objection to someone wanting to leave a comment or justification with their rejection. Doing so might even be called "exemplary". I think that there are many bad drafts where a comment/justification is not needed, and if provided would never be read. I think that a comment that entices a conversation should not be placed on the draftpage-proper, but on a talk page. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 04:36, 21 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
My basic point is that I would like to use Reject sometimes, but, because of what I think is a bug (since there is a box for a comment, but the comment is ignored), I find Reject almost unusable. It doesn't permit me to act as a responsible reviewer and advise the community as to why I rejected a draft, at least not without workaround on my part. As a result, I normally still use NSFW, which is not as drastic as Reject, although often I would like something with the finality of Reject. If the omission of the comment is a bug, can we prioritize it for implementation? Robert McClenon (talk) 05:43, 22 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, this is a bug. It should be prioritized for implementation. Tazerdadog (talk) 21:45, 23 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yup, it is - I've been testing a fix for a couple of days now and should probably have it out over the weekend. Sorry for the delay, all. Enterprisey (talk!) 05:53, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you, User:Enterprisey - That is much more helpful than being told that that is the way it is supposed to work and that there shouldn't be comments on a rejection. Robert McClenon (talk) 22:04, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
September 2018 at Women in Red
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I have encountered an editor who has submitted three pages to AFC. Two of them are blank. So far, so good. That is just a mistake, and the 'blank' template is much better than it was a few months ago when it assumed that the editor was requesting an article. However, the third one appears to be about an international volleyball tournament, but the links are all to articles about the 2018 association football World Cup. If this were article space, I would tag it as G3, a hoax. Should I go ahead and tag it for G3 anyway? Should I report the author at WP:ANI for either a hoax or a competency issue? Robert McClenon (talk) 22:08, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
G-series CSD criteria apply in any namespace, so it shouldn't matter if it is article space or not. — Insertcleverphrasehere(or here) 22:11, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
G1 and G2 don’t apply in userspace, but otherwise yes. —SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:53, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Feel free to suggest additional improvements! Headbomb {t · c · p · b} 16:06, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for your work on this! Looks awesome. Enterprisey (talk!) 21:18, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Sai Sachin Bellie
Sachin is a former Indian international cricketer and a former captain of the Indian national team, regarded as one of the greatest batsmen of all time. He is the highest run scorer of all time in International cricket
