Wikipedia:Dispute resolution noticeboard

"WP:DRN" redirects here. For the "Deny Recognition" essay, see WP:DNR.

Welcome to the dispute resolution noticeboard (DRN)

This is an informal place to resolve small content disputes as part of dispute resolution. It may also be used as a tool to direct certain discussions to more appropriate forums, such as requests for comment, or other noticeboards. You can ask a question on the talk page. This is an early stop for most disputes on Wikipedia. You are not required to participate, however, the case filer must participate in all aspects of the dispute or the matter will be considered failed. Any editor may volunteer! Click this button to add your name! You don't need to volunteer to help. Please feel free to comment below on any case. Be civil and remember; Maintain Wikipedia policy: it is usually a misuse of a talk page to continue to argue any point that has not met policy requirements. Editors must take particular care adding information about living persons to any Wikipedia page. This may also apply to some groups. Noticeboards should not be a substitute for talk pages. Editors are expected to have had extensive discussion on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to work out the issues before coming to DRN. Do you need assistance? Would you like to help? Request dispute resolution If we can't help you, a volunteer will point you in the right direction. Discussions should be civil, calm, concise, neutral, objective and as nice as possible. This noticeboard is for content disputes only. Comment on the contributions, not the contributors. Off-topic or uncivil behavior may garner a warning, improper material may be struck-out, collapsed, or deleted, and a participant could be asked to step back from the discussion. We cannot accept disputes that are already under discussion at other content or conduct dispute resolution forums or in decision-making processes such as Requests for comments, Articles for deletion, or Requested moves. The dispute must have been recently discussed extensively on a talk page (not just through edit summaries) to be eligible for help at DRN. The discussion should have been on the article talk page. Discussion on a user talk page is useful but not sufficient, because the article talk page may be watched by other editors who may be able to comment. Discussion normally should have taken at least two days, with more than one post by each editor. Ensure that you deliver a notice to each person you add to the case filing by leaving a notice on their user talk page. DRN has a notice template you can post to their user talk page by using the code shown here: {{subst:drn-notice}}. Be sure to sign and date each notice with four tildes (~~~~). Giving notice on the article talk page in dispute or relying on linking their names here will not suffice. Do not add your own formatting in the conversation. Let the moderators (DRN Volunteers) handle the formatting of the discussion as they may not be ready for the next session. Follow moderator instructions There will be times when the moderator may issue an instruction. It is expected of you to follow their instruction and you can always ask the volunteer on their talk page for clarification, if not already provided. Examples are about civility, don't bite the newcomers, etc. If you need help: If you need a helping hand just ask a volunteer, who will assist you. This is not a court with judges or arbitrators that issue binding decisions: we focus on resolving disputes through consensus, compromise, and advice about policy. For general questions relating to the dispute resolution process, please see our FAQ page. Become a volunteer We are always looking for new volunteers and everyone is welcome. Click the volunteer button above to join us, and read over the volunteer guide to learn how to get started. Being a volunteer on this page is not formal in any respect, and it is not necessary to have any previous dispute resolution experience. However, having a calm and patient demeanor and a good knowledge of Wikipedia policies and guidelines is very important. It's not mandatory to list yourself as a volunteer to help here, anyone is welcome to provide input. Volunteers should remember: Volunteers should gently and politely help the participant fix problems. Suggest alternative venues if needed. Try to be nice and engage the participants. Volunteers do not have any special powers, privileges, or authority in DRN or in Wikipedia, except as noted here. Volunteers who have had past dealings with the article, subject matter, or with the editors involved in a dispute which would bias their response must not act as a volunteer on that dispute. If any editor objects to a volunteer's participation in a dispute, the volunteer must either withdraw or take the objection to the DRN talk page to let the community comment upon whether or not the volunteer should continue in that dispute. Listed volunteers open a case by signing a comment in the new filing. When closing a dispute, please mark it as "closed" in the status template (see the volunteer guide for more information), remove the entire line about 'donotarchive' so that the bot will archive it after 48 hours with no other edits. Open/close quick reference To open, replace {{DR case status}} with {{DR case status|open}} To close, replace the "open" with "resolved", "failed", or "closed". Add {{DRN archive top|reason=(reason here) ~~~~}} beneath the case status template, and add {{DRN archive bottom}} at the bottom of the case. Remember to remove the DoNotArchive bit line (the entire line).

Case		Created		Last volunteer edit		Last modified
Title	Status	User	Time	User	Time	User	Time
Neith	In Progress	Potymkin (t)	24 days, 14 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	9 hours	BrocadeRiverPoems (t)	2 hours
Kuči	Closed	Setxkbmap (t)	6 days, 12 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 13 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 13 hours
Kyoto International Junior and Senior High School	Closed	Meganinja202 (t)	6 days, 8 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	4 days, 15 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	4 days, 15 hours
Defense of Sihang Warehouse	New	Adachi1939 (t)	5 days, 16 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	2 days, 20 hours	Adachi1939 (t)	1 days, 15 hours
Joseph Barbera	Closed	Whatsupkarren (t)	4 days, 16 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	4 days, 11 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	4 days, 11 hours
Dominika Banevič	Closed	88.216.164.52 (t)	3 days, 22 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	3 days, 14 hours	Robert McClenon (t)	3 days, 14 hours

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Last updated by FireflyBot (talk) at 11:46, 2 September 2024 (UTC)

Current disputes

Social Democracy

– Discussion in progress.

Filed by Twozerooz on 14:29, 15 September 2021 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Social Democracy (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Twozerooz (talk · contribs)
• Czello (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

A prior consensus (minus 1 user) was reached on the second sentence of the preamble, specifically that its economic ideology is a capitalist mixed economy, not socialism.

This dispute now is over the very first sentence which states the exact opposite (that it is socialism). The first sentence is directly contradictory to the second sentence.

I believe we need clarification on 3 points: 1) That Economic Ideology and Economic Philosophy are synonyms, and are not different. 2) The first sentence directly contradicts the second sentence. 3) Since the second sentence is not in question, the first sentence should be changed to match the second.

Unfortunately most of the talk page with this issue has been archived. Let me know if I need to provide relevant archived discussions or any other additional information.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[[1]]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

Clarify the 3 points listed

Summary of dispute by Czello

I am surprised this post was made -- Twozerooz, I thought we agreed that an RfC was the best way to resolve this issue?

However, my summary of the issue is simply that there was no consensus to remove "economic philosophy" from the opening sentence, and Erzan was in discussion with OP about this issue, before OP stopped responding. As the the text remained for the next few months, I assumed the issue was resolved -- until OP chose to remove the text again by deceptively labelling it as vandalism.

All I want is for OP to pursue a consensus on the talk page rather than edit warring (something he has been reported to WP:EWN twice for, the second time resulting in a block). This is why I suggested an RfC, and OP agreed to this. Why we've come here instead is rather bizarre. — Czello ^{(Please tag me in replies)} 15:48, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Just for clarification Czello: The first sentence was never discussed. But given that the second sentence now has consensus, it seems to follow that the first sentence was simply omitted by error. I think much of the confusion here is in regards to different synonyms being used, so as long as nobody has an issue with it I will make an edit to use the same term for both sentences, then we will go from there. --Twozerooz (talk) 15:58, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

It has been like this for almost half a year. 'Economic ideology' and 'economic philosophy' mean the same thing. The reader will be taken to the same page, which is economic ideology so there is no confusion. Erzan (talk) 16:38, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Yes agreed, my point 1 is indisputably correct. --Twozerooz (talk) 20:34, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Social Democracy discussion

Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.

• Volunteer Note -While some precedent does seem to have been put forth roughly five months ago on the talk page, the discussion between the two parties mentioned here has been very short. Additionally, User:Czello has not been notified on their talk page. Iazyges Consermonor Opus meum 14:54, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
• Volunteer Note - The discussion on the article talk page seems to be agreeing that a Request for Comments is the best way to resolve the questions. An issue should not be discussed in two or more places at the same time, and an RFC takes precedence over discussion at a noticeboard. If the editors want assistance in formulating a neutrally worded RFC, they can request that here. Are the editors requesting moderated discussion (in place of or prior to an RFC), or do they plan on using an RFC? Robert McClenon (talk) 15:00, 15 September 2021 (UTC)
• Sorry wasn't aware there was different processes. I haven't initiated any other process yet, so please let me know whether I should do that or any other actions. --Twozerooz (talk) 15:49, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Yes, I'm rather confused as to why this post was made after OP agreed an RfC is the best way forward. Given that the original talk page thread had several different discussions going on at once, I think an RfC makes the topic of contention much clearer. I would urge Twozerooz to pursue that route as agreed. — Czello ^{(Please tag me in replies)} 15:51, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

@Twozerooz: The best thing to do is follow the instructions here. As a suggestion for a neutrally-worded question for the RfC, I recommend Should "economic philosophy" be removed from the opening sentence?". — Czello ^{(Please tag me in replies)} 15:53, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Reading the processes, it does actually seem like a dispute resolution is more appropriate given that this is not actually a conflict regarding subject matter. The issue now isn't related to economics at all, but rather just confusion over synonyms and logical contradictions. Any unbiased party should be able to rectify this, regardless of their level of knowledge in economics. An RFC would have been very useful during the first dispute over the second sentence, but that has been resolved already --Twozerooz (talk) 16:02, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

You know what, I concede. I have no interest in arguing this further. I didn't feel strongly enough the matter the first time round, and it looks like it's just becoming a new edit war -- which is the very thing I was trying to prevent. Erzan appears to have returned this debate, so I'll leave it to him. Although what, that was before I saw this. It appears consensus may in fact be leaning to leaving it in. — Czello ^{(Please tag me in replies)} 17:40, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

Valjean was referring to changing the first synonym, as opposed to the second. He was right. I changed the second one to match instead - Valjean thanked me for the edit. And yes, someone canvassed Erzan to bring him in.... --Twozerooz (talk) 20:32, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

As I've already explained to you, notifying someone who was part of a prior discussion that the discussion has reopened is not canvassing. See WP:APPNOTE. Again, my position on the matter isn't all that strong, so your dispute is with Erzan more than it is with me. — Czello ^{(Please tag me in replies)} 21:04, 15 September 2021 (UTC)

From WP:APPNOTE: "but uninvolved"... "The audience must not be selected on the basis of their opinions". Given that Erzan was the subject of the original edit war who had clear and very strong opinions to the contrary - and is someone who has a long history of edit warring - it just seems bizarre that someone would deliberately bring him in in order to "stop an edit war in the first place". Regardless, the bell cannot be unrung. Tagging in another editor to take your place does not mean the dispute is over; The dispute is still on-going and needs to be resolved. --Twozerooz (talk) 18:27, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

You know what, you're right. I didn't notice the "but uninvolved" part. Given the nature of your reversion on this, where you incorrectly labeled it as vandalism, I felt it appropriate to notify someone who was part of the debate. However, if I have misread the boundaries of WP:APPNOTE then I have erred and apologise. I do wish we'd had and RfC on this, but whatever -- I hope your other post resolves this. I worry that page is becoming a WP:BATTLEGROUND so I might just remove it from my watchlist. Peace. — Czello ^{(Please tag me in replies)} 18:46, 16 September 2021 (UTC)

You're right, I didn't understand what Wiki defined vandalism as so I apologize for that. I still fail to understand how that could justify canvassing other people to push a specific viewpoint. Regardless, this will be my last comment here - I'll let the dispute resolution process continue. --Twozerooz (talk) 14:18, 17 September 2021 (UTC)

First statement by moderator (Social democracy)

I am willing to act as the moderator. I will ask the editors to read WP:DRN Rule A and follow the rules. Be civil and concise. Overly long statements may make the author feel better, but they seldom clarify the issues. I am neutral, except that one way to get me to be non-neutral is to ignore the rules that I set forth. Do not respond to each other's statements, except in the section for back-and-forth discussion (which I have the right to ignore). Comment on content, not contributors. Discuss edits, not editors.

It appears that there is some discussion of whether an RFC is needed, or whether moderated discussion is needed, or perhaps moderated discussion that decides the content of an RFC.

The purpose of this discussion is to improve the article, so Be Specific at DRN. I will ask each editor to make a one-paragraph statement as to what they want added to or removed from the article, or left alone in the article when someone else wants to change it. Then I will decide how to proceed further. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:29, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

First statements by editors (Social democracy)

Change

Social democracy is a political, social, and economic philosophy within the socialist tradition.

to

Social democracy is a political and social philosophy within the socialist tradition.

Reasons were already given above. It looks like everyone understands economic philosophy and economic ideology are synonyms (#1 above). So only #2 and #3 need moderation. For reference, the 'second sentence' that everyone has already agreed to is:

"As an economic ideology and policy regime, it is described by academics as advocating economic and social interventions to promote social justice within the framework of a liberal-democratic polity and a capitalist-oriented mixed economy." Bolded to highlight the contradictions between first and second sentence.

--Twozerooz (talk) 14:48, 20 September 2021 (UTC)

Second statement by moderator (Social democracy)

One editor has responded, and has said to take out the phrase 'economic philosophy' from the lede sentence. Does the other editor agree, or will an RFC be needed?

They also referred to second and third points needing moderation, and they gave one example.

The other editor has not responded yet, so I will ask them again to state concisely what they want changed, or what they want left the same that other editors want changed. Robert McClenon (talk) 17:22, 22 September 2021 (UTC)

I presume this is directed at me -- as stated above I concede on the matter; judging by the edit history of the article, I think OP's dispute is with Erzan, still. OP did have a dispute resolution case involving Erzan open but he appears to have closed it. — Czello ^{(Please tag me in replies)} 09:08, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Third statement by moderator (Social democracy)

I am willing to start an RFC if any editor requests it. If there are any other issues, please state them concisely. If there are no issues or requests, I will close this case. Robert McClenon (talk) 02:44, 24 September 2021 (UTC)

Back-and-forth discussion (Social democracy)

For the moderator's clarification: The dispute was with Czello, but Czello has now canvassed another editor who agrees with him to 'tag out' and take his place. This editor is aware of this DRN and has already commented on it once. --Twozerooz (talk) 15:31, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Sri Lankan Moors

– General close. See comments for reasoning.

Filed by UMDP on 02:58, 23 September 2021 (UTC).

Closed discussion

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Have you discussed this on a talk page? Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already. Location of dispute Sri Lankan Moors (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) Users involved UMDP (talk · contribs) AntanO (talk · contribs) Dispute overview User disagrees on the addition on research data involving x-str claiming contradiction. Does not provide sources or data for the so-called contradiction but uses selected sentences from wikipedia articles and goes on unrelated issues such as linguistics. Argues that because sample size not including the entire population size and using unrelated individuals in research and normal things as reasons for removal. The argument goes in circles and the user refuses to allow it to be added. How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here? Talk:Sri_Lankan_Moors#Removal_of_X-SRT How do you think we can help resolve the dispute? At least get User:AntanO to provide the sources and data of the contradictions so they can be added if not disengage the argument and allow the research data on genetic relations to be added. Summary of dispute by -AntanO The result is based on 838 unrelated individuals which is a few samples from 1,869,820 moors. Also, Eastern Moors are Western Moors are not same in terms of culture, language and inter marriage with Sinhalese and Tamil, and the study did not say where were the specimen came from (Eastern Moors / Western Moors). The article says with RS that ... Tamil is the mother tongue of the community whose maternal lineage are Tamil. It is not about linguistics, and it's about "maternal lineage". Apart from the research, you have to understand the community issue in Sri Lanka. The issue is ethnic conversion. If I start to clarify, it might go for some more paragraphs. Also, read Genetic studies on Sinhalese which disputes (with RS) the claim that Moors are not most closely related to Sinhalaese and then to Sri Lankan Tamils are most closely related to Sinhalaese. Sri Lankan Moors discussion Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary. Volunteer Note - The filing editor has not notified the other editor on their talk page. Robert McClenon (talk) 05:27, 23 September 2021 (UTC) Volunteer Note - Sometimes the genetic markers are being referred to as STRs, and sometimes as SRTs. Since the full term is short tandem repeat markers, they are STRs. (This does not affect the fact that there is a content dispute.) Robert McClenon (talk) 05:29, 23 September 2021 (UTC) Sorry I added in the article talk page and forgot to add in the user talk page. Its done now. Thank you- UmdP 05:40, 23 September 2021 (UTC) Again user AntanO fails to provide a source or any research to dispute a peer-reviewed scientific research and relies on a single line in the language section. Personal attack. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:19, 23 September 2021 (UTC) Also the user is lying about the "reliable source" because the source cited for that specific sentence is a readers blog in a newspaper with no citations to real scientific research. Are we really going to dispute the factual accuracy of scientific research with some blog post and call the blog a reliable source over actual genetic information? - UmdP 14:13, 23 September 2021 (UTC) It appears my comment was perceived as offensive. Apologies if anyone was offended and I did not mean to imply the user was liar but the statement was false as the source is a blog post and therefor not RS. Thank You. - UmdP 19:48, 23 September 2021 (UTC) User UMDP ignores that fact that I raised that so called scientific research is piece of work done by 2 or 3 persons with a few specimen. Do I need to repeat again to make awareness? --AntanO 01:17, 24 September 2021 (UTC) : The "so-called" scientific research is peer reviewed and published. Putting a so-called in front doesn't change the research. Published research has stricter standards than random opinions pieces in blog posts as they are sent to many external scientists by the publisher. The review board of the publisher and external peers have decided the research is valid to be published in the journal. Questionininh the validity of the research results is not possible here unless you provide the data of these research results you claim to exist that contradictory to this. And that is how research is done, in fact most genetic studies done in SL specially pretty much all those in Genetic studies on Sinhalese have much smaller sample sizes. You don't take the population you take a sample and they make sure the individuals are unrelated to reduce the bias. The number of scientists involved is not even an argument against the results. Thank you. - UmdP 02:57, 24 September 2021 (UTC) So far, there no complete scientific research. A sample is not be a conclusion. The peer review is failed to say who were the participant and their origin, geographic location, etc. Eastern Moors are mostly connect to Tamil maternal lineage. Some hundreds specimen cannot conclude the entire community's genetics since the Moors have varies maternal lineage. --AntanO 03:29, 24 September 2021 (UTC) What? I don't understand what you are saying. What is "complete scientific research"? This is complete that has been published. You only take samples in research to make a conclusion. Making up claims like "peer review failed" means nothing, WP:SOURCE clearly says peer reviewed articles have highest verifiability. Where are the sources for your claims? You said there is contradictaory research but still haven't posted anythinmg and instead making up nonsense to WP:FILIBUSTER. -UmdP 03:38, 24 September 2021 (UTC) If it a black, I can just say black without referring any nonsense. First, you should understand the facts of Moors community. So far, you skip my points. Again I ask what were specimens since there are four major Moor groups in Sri Lanka. Give me supportive references for your claims. If it anyone ask further reference, someone has to give regardless of WP:SOURCE --AntanO 07:23, 24 September 2021 (UTC) SO you are making up everything and expect your opinion to be equal to peer-reviewed research? WP:SOURCE is clear on this, you claiming something and demanding to "understand" it cannot be taken as fact here. You are calling your own personal opinion and your own classifications based on WP:OR as sources which cannot be accepted. You are also not a authority to "fail" peer-reveiwers. You claimed that the research is contradicted by other research so you should take the WP:ONUS to provide peer-reviewed research to contradict it not some random reader's blog. You claiming something doesn't mean anything as all of your claims are made by you, not backed by any source with the only exception being a random reader's blog. The research is published in open so you can read it yourself. So yes you are WP:FILIBUSTERing by wasting time and making up your own claims to avoid adding reliable sources instead of unreliable reader's blogs- UmdP 07:40, 24 September 2021 (UTC) Moors, Malays, Memons, Bohras are part of Sri Lankan Moors and they were from different ethnic backgrounds (Arabs, Indonesian, Kathiawad & Gujarat) and intermarried to Sinhalese and Tamils. Peer-review failed to say it in details than a vague report, not detailed. Do you say we have to accept peer-review if it not failed to figure out many facts since it is "research"? How could you say or give reference if I want to see genetic relation between Malays and Sinhalese? Do not give earlier reference since it failed to give details to all Moors. --AntanO 08:58, 24 September 2021 (UTC) Ah yes now you are making your own categories of 4 up from your previous classification of 2. You claiming the authority to decide peer reviews doesn't mean anything and won't be taken seriously. WP:SOURCE makes it clear you not accepting peer review process is irrelevant. Malays are not Moors they are a seperate ethnic group which they acknowledge. The research clearly states 'In addition to these ethnicities, around 0.5% of the Sri Lankan population comprises other minor ethnic groups belonging to numerous descents. They include Malays (descendants from island of Java) Burghers (descendants of colonists from Portugal, Netherlands and UK) and other Chinese and African migrants who came to the island in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries.". Also your made up classifications aren't even reliable. Malays are an ethnic group while Bohras are a religious sect. If you are going to put up your own WP:OR at least make it consistant, not changing 2 to 4 and mixing ethnic groups and religious denominations. Its impossible to resolve any dispute when you attempt to WP:FILIBUSTER by creating WP:OR on the go. I will await Moderator view before trying to debunk all the WP:OR you cook up on the go thinking it has weight against actual scientific research that has been peer reviewed and published in a journal.- UmdP 09:14, 24 September 2021 (UTC) Read Islamic Outreach by Centre for Islamic Studies to know more about Moors. I am clear about Wiki policies, and I encourage you to read WP:GF since you point your finger towards me than the subject. Scientific research says "This can be represented through tables, figures, and pictures, and then described in words." But so far you are not ready to show any figures on where I raised concern. Therefore, WP:IAR. Because, those finding are not clear. Still not clear? I can come up with more questioning figures. --AntanO 10:12, 24 September 2021 (UTC) You have not even talked about the subject rather making up WP:OR on the go. On the contrary you have false claimed about including Malays as part of Moors which they aren't, SL census clearly considers them a separate ethnic group and not even considered as part of the research as the very above the research report it is explicitly stated that it only includes Sinhalese, SL Tamils, Indian Tamils and Moors with Malays being a separate group. You keep on creating new ethnic classifications on go. Also you were the one that is against representing research data in the Moors page claiming it contradicts your blog post, instead of providing WP:RS with contradictory data. Now complaining about not including other forms of data representation is not even relevant to what you are trying to argue. You you claimed multiple times that contradictory research exist but only put links to wiki articles. I have assumed good-faith but now you explicitly stated that you are going to "come with up" things rather than providing the so-called contradictory research and you have expressed to abuse WP:IAR. This is why I will wait for moderator opinion because you will just "come up with more figures" rather than using research data to create an argument against it so you can continue the DNR for infinity just like how you make up two different classification systems that demanded it to be answered. - UmdP 10:27, 24 September 2021 (UTC) The research results are represented in tables and figures you can just read them including the AMOVA analysis in a table and the UPGMA phylogram based on X-STR data. The phylogram could be added to wiki in the future. I don't think adding the figure showing the loci of the STRs that were studied is necessary. - UmdP 10:34, 24 September 2021 (UTC) I cannot access the link, and browser says Your connection is not private --AntanO 14:35, 24 September 2021 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Second Anglo-Afghan War

– New discussion.

Filed by Noorullah21 on 16:07, 25 September 2021 (UTC).

Have you discussed this on a talk page?

Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.

Location of dispute

• Second Anglo-Afghan War (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Users involved

• Noorullah21 (talk · contribs)
• 199.82.243.110 (talk · contribs)

Dispute overview

Both of us are having a dispute over if Afghanistan was a protected state or a protectorate.

Brief summary of what a protected state is: [2], and the difference between the two. [3]

I am disputing and saying that Afghanistan is a protected state, and the other user claims it is a protectorate.

How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?

[4]

How do you think we can help resolve the dispute?

I wish for someone to help find a solution or to tater to either side, we both have multiple sources that veer and mine also explain the difference between protectorate and protected state, his sources claim protectorate but then go on to explain the defenition of what a protected state is for what the British had in Afghanistan. Which was foreign affairs grants given up to the british only, this is a protected state. a protectorate is more of a puppet-ish to their overlord.

Summary of dispute by Noorullah21

Me and IP user are disputing over if Afghanistan is a protected state or a protectorate after the Second Anglo-Afghan War, we both have multiple sources that tater.

I also explain the meanings between protected state and protectorate, his sources also go on to claim protectorate, but then give the definition of what a protected state is, I am arguing for protected state by the way.

1. [5] (difference between both)
2. [6] (protected state meaning)
3. [7] (sources that mention Afghanistan as a protected state)

IP user posts sources that claim it is a protectorate, but has the definition of a protected state, the explanation behind this is that protected state was commonly referred to as a protectorate as its side name, but the two meanings have jarring differences hence why I am arguing for the second anglo afghan war page to include protected state instead of protectorate, because Afghanistan only gave up foreign rights access to the British, but did not give up its internal affairs, if it gave up internal affairs access, it would then be considered a protectorate.

[8] (one of the sources that state Afghanistan as a protectorate but then describe it as a protected state. 

1. [9] (also a source that refers to protected state as a protectorate, hence why most modern scholars used to use protectorate, essentially same meanings at the time until noticed otherwise.
2. [10] (more sources that state afghanistan as a protected state, giving up foreign rights only)

Treaty of Gandamak page also states that afghanistan gives up foreign rights access.

1. [11] Talks about it being a protectorate but also describes it as a protected state with foreign right access given to the British.

And finally, a source that states Afghanistan as a protected state.

1. [12] (by Alexander)
2. [13]] (Jame's source that also mentions afghanistan as a protected state)

Summary of dispute by 199.82.243.110

Here are references by acclaimed scholars that Afghanistan became British Protectorate after Treaty of Gandamak. 3rd Opinion also claimed the inclusion of Protectorate. Below references: Reference 1, [14] states Afghanistan after 1879 is a classic example of protectorate. Following the Peace of Gandamak, the Amir of Afghanistan agreed to leave the control of his foreign relations to the British Government....Afghanistan's status as a PROTECTORATE was recognized in the Anglo Russian Agreement of 1907.
Reference 2, [15]. Reference states that 1879, May 26 - Peace of Gandamak. Afghanistan became, in effect, a protectorate of Great Britain.
Reference 3, [16] Reference states that At the Treaty of Gandamak in 1879 Afghanistan became a British PROTECTORATE and Kabul was opened up to a British mission, something Afghans still consider to be an appalling loss of face.
Reference 4, [17] Reference states The following year, Anglo Indian troops invaded Afghanistan and imposed, through the treaty of Gandamak signed on May 26, 1879, an English PROTECTORATE and the loss of control over the Khyber Pass....
Reference 5, [18] Reference states In 1878, the Second Anglo-Afghan war broke out. It ended two years later with the Treaty of Gandamak, which effectively made Afghanistan a PROTECTORATE of Britain.
Reference 6 [19] Reference states Afghanistan was technically a PROTECTORATE of the British Empire since the treaty of Gandamak of 1879 and reinforced in the Durand line accord of 1893.
Reference 7 [20] Reference states by the treaty of Gandamak of May 1879, Afghanistan, in effect, became a British PROTECTORATE and gave British control of the Khyber Pass to ensure easy entry by the British troops.

This is what 3rd opinion said on the [21], Here is my non binding opinion. I am for inclusion of protectorate. David A. Lake writes "Afghanistan after 1879 is a classic example of protectorate". Princeton University Press. Seems enough. Cinadon36 09:10, 24 September 2021 (UTC). 199.82.243.96 (talk) 17:13, 25 September 2021 (UTC)

Second Anglo-Afghan War discussion

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