Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

June 21

"Hesher" definitions gone--what happened to them?

On a previous visit to Wikipedia (many months ago) I was looking for information on the term "Hesher". I found many insightful definitions. I returned today, and the only reference is to a Nickleback album. Can the "good" (useful) definitions be brought back?

The version of the Hesher article before the rampant deletion is here: [1]. It does appear to need some reformatting before being put back, would you be willing to do this ? StuRat 05:21, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Regular allophonic pair in English

Many years ago (ca. 1980) I asked my linguistics professor about a pattern I'd detected and she didn't even nibble. Question 1 is, how widespread is the following allophonic rule (my intuition as a native speaker is that it extends much beyond my own Mid-Atlantic idiolect!)? /aɪ/ is rendered as [aɪ] before voiced consonants, but as [ʌɪ] before unvoiced. Just some of the many minimal pairs of words for which the pattern holds:

(bride, bright), (five, fife), (spies, spice), (tribe, tripe)

Question 2: is there a tidy causal explanation in terms of minimal effort in pronunciation?

Sorry if this is widely known and I shoulda found it already on Wikipedia!

PaulTanenbaum 03:34, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Some of this may be discussed at Canadian raising (a bit of misnomer since the phenomenon isn't restricted to Canada). A Wikipedian from Wisconsin told me once that for him hide (noun, "skin") and hide verb are minimal pairs: one has [aɪ] and the other [ʌɪ]. —Angr 04:30, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Lick ...

Lick the dog. What does this phrase mean? I saw this phrase as an advice to someone who needed to get rid of drowsiness. But couldn't understand it. Sorry, if it is vulgar. I don't understand it. Desaparecidosdo 04:25, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Could it have been meant in a literal sense, like "take a cold shower" would also not mean something else?  --Lambiam^Talk 08:06, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Could this be a variation of “the hair of the dog that bit you”? The classic example is to drink beer to get rid of a hangover. The problem is that if applied to drowsiness the recommendation would be to sleep it off. That makes little sense. David D. (Talk) 08:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Someone here [2] had the same question. Perhaps it is the same person. The only answer was a variation on David D. (Talk)'s "hair of the dog". Bielle 22:44, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Could this "lick" mean "beat" or "flog" as in the old question: "What is the difference between a stamp and an ass?... One you stick with a lick, the other you lick with a stick." CJLippert 18:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

That's too bad/What a shame

A colleague of mine (a non-native speaker of English) asked me if there was a difference between the usage of the phrases "that's too bad" and "what a shame". I couldn't really think of one, though. I told him that these two are more commonly used when someone tells you that something bad but not too serious has happened to them. "My car broke down today" or "I didn't get that promotion." In contrast, "my sympathies" or "my condolences" would be used in more serious situations: "My mother died" or "I've been diagnosed with cancer."

Do y'all agree or disagree? How would you distinguish the usage of "that's too bad" and "what a shame"? Is there a distinction? — Brian (talk) 04:59, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

"You have my condolences" is the stock phrase used when a person beloved to the addressee has died, and is therefore associated with death; for that reason I'd hesitate to use it in connection with serious illness. I'd further only use it either with people I don't personally know well, or in the context of a longer letter of condolence. "My sympathies" does not have an equally strong association with death, but is still rather impersonal if that is all that is said in response to learning something serious happened to the other person. You can always safely use "I'm sorry to hear that". I agree that the phrases "that's too bad" and "what a shame" are mainly used when the issue is not too personally serious, but perhaps that is largely due to the very informal and loose tone of these phrases, while a serious grief or loss is felt to call for a more formal register. I also agree they are almost interchangeable, but "that's too bad" includes the personal feelings while "what a shame" applies more to the situation itself; the latter suggests to me more than the former that there's nothing one can do about it, like when a favourite object was lost.  --Lambiam^Talk 07:53, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

To me 'that's too bad' has a distinctly American ring. It is used in Britain, but I think 'what a shame' or 'what a pity' is much more common. --ColinFine 23:31, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

To me, "that's too bad" carries the implication "(for you)"; that is, I'm noting that the situation is negative from your perspective. "What a shame" or "it's a shame" or "that's a shame" implies that I personally think the situation is bad. If George W. Bush were for some reason in my kitchen and said "I'm really bummed that I can't run for election to a third term", I might say out of politeness "that's too bad", but would never ever say "what a shame". Tesseran 23:55, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

In my experience, "What a shame" carries an added element of reaction to a perceived injustice or unfairness, often personal. "My car broke down" is simply impersonal fate and so would elicit a "That's too bad", whereas "I didn't get the promotion" would yield a "What a shame", or perhaps further, "What a shame - you worked so hard for it." Pushnell 03:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Identifing an accent

Can someone tell me where the narator of this YouTube video is most likely from? I've never heard this particular accent before. Dismas|^(talk) 12:20, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't sound like a native English speaker, but some pronunciation is General American, suggesting that the speaker has spent a substantial time in North America. — Gareth Hughes 12:27, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Sounds Quebecois to me. СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 14:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The narrator is from Romania.

It definitely sounds like an Eastern European who's learned American English. —Angr 17:16, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

It is definitely Romanian. What does Eastern European mean? Slavic? Hungarian? Romanian? These languages have nothing to do with each other.

Well, Romanian may not be classified as a Slavic language, but it does have Slavic as well as Latin origins. -- JackofOz 22:07, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

It doesn't have Slavic origins, but it does have Slavic loanwords. However, that isn't the point. Regardless of how different Romanian and Hungarian are from the Slavic languages and each other, the accents of their speakers when using English sound similar (to my ears at any rate). —Angr 22:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

See sprachbund.--Pharos 03:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I was surprised to hear it is actually a person. Usually an accent like that reflects computer-generated speech. Edison 22:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Names of Latin letters in Greek language

I know the English names for the Greek letters (alpha, beta, gamma, etc.).

What are the Greek names for the Latin letters (A, B, C, D, etc.)?

If you are referring to classical Greek, I don't think they had any, since Latin is a later language than Greek, and I don't know if the conquered Greeks made separate names for the Latin letters (from Etruscan). I suspect they just called A alpha, or they called the letters by their Latin names, which according to Latin alphabet were essentially the same as today. I'm afraid I can't help for modern Greek, and the Greek wikipedia gives nothing useful, as far as I can see. СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 14:33, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Greek Wikiepdia isn't very helpful, as СПУТНИК said. For example, el:A simply says: "Το γράμμα A είναι το πρώτο γράμμα του Λατινικού αλφαβήτου." ("The letter A is the first letter of the Latin alphabet"), without a pronunciation. el:Λατινικό αλφάβητο (Latin alphabet) doesn't give pronunciations either.

This page has a section called "ΛΑΤΙΝΙΚΟ ΑΛΦΑΒΗΤΟ" (Latin Alphabet), that looks like it may be the Greek pronuniciations for the Latin letters. These seem to be pretty tied to the Latin language itself; "Y" is "ί γκραίκουμ" ("i graecum") and "V" and "W" have the same text ("βε"). It also has a section with the equivalent of the British letter names "ΑΓΓΛΙΚΟ ΑΛΦΑΒΗΤΟ" ("English Alphabet").

You'd probably have to find someone that actually knows Modern Greek to be certain, but I think part of the problem is that letters in the Latin alphabet have very minimal names (except "W" and "Z"). For the most part, their names in the languages I'm familiar with are pretty close to their pronunciations (allowing for the per-language constraints of phonotactics). In Greek, the names are actually native letter names, e.g. the letter "α" is actually called "ἄλφα" while it is pronounced [a]. Mike Dillon 18:11, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

What does "walk-down" mean?

Hello. On several occasions I've encountered the expression 'a walk-down bar' in reference to a bar/restaurant. I tried to find a definition or an explanation of this expressiom, but count not find anything.

Thanks in advance!

It means you would enter it by going down a set of steps. Recury 16:35, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

The expression tends to mean a bar that is a half-storey or less "below ground", in what would be called a "raised basement" in a North American residence. You can usually see through the bar's front window looking down from street level. New York is full of them, as are areas of Boston, Montreal and Toronto. Bielle 05:18, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

In a residence, I would call that a split level, tri-level, or quad-level, depending on the number of floors. StuRat 14:04, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

• Cheershotclaws 08:11, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

What's a motto with you?

Hi. During the song Hakuna Matata Timon makes a lame pun: Pumba: What's a motto? Timon: Nothing. What's a motto with you?

I'm curious how this pun was translated in to Mandarin. [[3]] Anyone know? Thanks --Duomillia 16:50, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't get the pun but it sounds like Simba asks what's a motto? And Timon answers who cares, as long as we're with you. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 18:18, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a pretty bad pun on "matter" ("what's the matter with you"), based on the non-rhotic New York accent or whatever they were going for with those characters. Though of course I have no idea how this was rendered in Mandarin or any other language! Adam Bishop 19:14, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

No no, what I posted was the Mandarin rendition. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 23:23, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh! Sorry. Adam Bishop 23:40, 21 June 2007 (UTC)

No punning is involved in the Mandarin version, lame or not lame. "Hakuna Matata?" "That's our motto." (这是我们的座右铭。) "What's a motto?" (什么是座右铭？) "Never mind! Just say it as we do." (管它呢!跟著念就成了。) Cheers.--K.C. Tang 01:27, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Yea, I wasn't sure if I heard correctly, since I speak Taiwan's Mandarin, so the accents are really heavy to me. But that still clears up that there's no pun. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 02:19, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

June 22

Correct third-person past tense of scream

Is 'screamt' an acceptable variant of 'screamed', as 'burnt' is of 'burned' or 'dreamt' is of 'dreamed'? If not, why? Also, what are the general rules for determining whether verbs ending in -l, -m and -n take -ed or -t? Ratzd'mishukribo 02:53, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

No, "screamt" is not a word. The only past-tense verb that ends in -mt is "dreamt" and its derivatives (undreamt, etc.). In fact, it's the only common English word with such a property. See English words with uncommon properties#Unusual word endings. Some people spell the past tense of "spell" as "spelt", but others disagree, believing this word refers to a type of grain, and the required past tense is "spelled".-- JackofOz 03:03, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Pray tell, on what grounds do these "others" contend that "spelt" is unacceptable? The OED and the AHD both give "spelt" as a valid past tense form alongside "spelled". --Ptcamn 03:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Maybe you'd better ask them, Ptcamn. I don't know their names, unfortunately. I prefer to write "spelled" because that's what I was taught at a young age, but I know that others write "spelt". I was merely making reference to the fact that there is disagreement about this. See Talk:American and British English differences/Spelled v Spelt, for example. -- JackofOz 04:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess this question has to do with final obstruent devoicing and English orthography. It depends on how you pronounce the final obstruent, and whether you want to render your pronunciation phonetically. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 03:43, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

And we can't forget that there is spelt :P-Andrew c 23:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Not only have we not forgotten it, but I mentioned it 5 posts above.  :) -- JackofOz 01:37, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you all - but I ought to pose my query more clearly. Verbs ending in -l, -m, or -n, which was once took the past tense in -t, now take -ed, but -t is usually still accepted (take the above example of 'spelt'). On an online list, examples of such verbs are given but 'screamt' is omitted. Indeed, I do not recall having read 'screamt'. However, if 'screamt' never did exist, it requires explanation, as it is phonetically identical in this respect to 'dreamt'. In short: why doesn't 'screamt' have the same linguistic status as 'dreamt'? To my understanding, this is not addressed in the paragraphs above. Ratzd'mishukribo 04:14, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

In my part of the world, we pronounce "screamed" as skreemd, not skremt, and I've never heard the skremt pronunciation anywhere, so I disagree that the fictitious word "screamt" requires any explanation. -- JackofOz 04:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

(Edit conflict) I don't know much English, but I'd think in this way: why do some verbs end in -t in the first place? It seems that they end in -t in order to reflect the actual pronunciation (-d devoiced into -t). So how is "screamed" pronounced? does it end with a -d or a -t? (I'm not sure, I don't really speak English.) If the former, then there's no problem; if the latter, then we can say that the spelling doesn't reflect the actual pronunciation, which hardly surprises us, as English is well-known for its irregular orthography. So are you sure "dreamt" and "screamed" are "phonetically identical"? If they are, well, then the irregular English orthography is to blame. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 04:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

KC, if you can write a paragraph like that in a language you don't speak, you must be a bestselling novelist in the languages you do speak! -- Mwalcoff 22:52, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The issue is that while many verbs ending in -n, -m, and -l do take an (irregular) past tense in -t, because these are irregularities this generalisation is not productive. It's a closed set that does this, you can't introduce it to other words (e.g. I sunned myself, I framed a picture, I filled a hole.) It's just that some verbs have irregular past tenses, which is generally because they reflect an old regular way of doing things that has since been replaced. There's a tendency for more common verbs to keep this old ways of doing things (irregularity) more than rarer ones. English-speaking children just have to learn which ones are exceptions, though there are some patterns which help to remember them. The ones they fail to learn get regularised... (e.g. shew -> showed). Drmaik 05:31, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

In (American) English, "screamed" has a clearly enunciated "d" on the end. On the other hand, "skrimped" is pronounced liked "skrimt" or perhaps "skrimpt." Edison 22:20, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Do you mean "scrimped"? I don't know "skrimped". The pronunciation of the final syllable is heavily influenced by the awkwardnes of "imp" plus a hard "d", or whatever that is in phonetics. Thus, the "d" comes out sounding more like a "t", though it is never spelled that way, to my knowledge. Bielle 05:13, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Or to put it more technically, after voiceless sounds '-ed' is pronounced 't', which is also voiceless. This is the pattern of regular English verbs. Drmaik 06:19, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

For what it's worth, screamt seems to have been in use in Scots, if not in English. I can produce two citations: William Nicholson, "The Country Lass" ("The tod screamt eldricht frae the cleugh"), via Google Books; J. Learmont, Poems ("The howlet screamt, / The liche fowle [=nightjar]'s hoarse, / Did fairly deave [=deafen] her ear."), via Dictionary of the Scots Language. Wareh 19:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

what is the meaning of "how about a hand for Harry"

I am a non-native english speaker. When I visited at the universal studio in LA. The host of an animal-show said "how about a hand for Harry(an orangutan)"- at least it sounded like to me- at the end of the show, but I could'nt understand the exact meaning of the sentence. Could you please let me know it in easy english! Thank you, have a nice day. Leemhvic 04:55, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

It means "to clap your hands", "to applaud". Cheers.--K.C. Tang 05:04, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe that you probably heard correctly, and that the host was asking you to applaud (clap for) the orangutan. I'm not aware of any alternate meanings of this phrase, although I'm willing to be enlightened. Carom 05:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

The usual idiom is "Let's give him (or her) a hand". As it is, this expression has two quite different meanings, and you need the context to see which is intended. One meaning is to urge an audience to applaud someone by hand clapping. However, "to give someone a hand" can also mean: to help that person with performing or finishing a task.  --Lambiam^Talk 09:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

To sum up the above and to add some clarification, there are two idioms in use here. The first is "how about...". This idiom always begins a question. It means "What do you think about..." or "How would you feel about...", but it can also be an informal way of saying "Could you please do..." or "Could you please give...". The second idiom is "a hand". These words express one of (at least) two idioms. One, as others have said, means "help". The other means "a round of applause". Since it came at the end of a performance or broadcast appearance, the meaning is almost certainly "a round of applause". Marco polo 16:38, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Shortly after the release of the movie Jaws, there was a comedy mix song with fragments of songs like "Wouldn't you give your hand to a friend ?". The double meanings made me laugh. Perhaps that's when I first became addicted to puns. StuRat 13:47, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

It is a very old pun that wannabe comedians often make: Someone is working on something difficult and asks a friend to "give me a hand." The friend responds with applause rather than assistance, to the chagrin of the first person. — Michael J 23:08, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

That's not quite the same, as Jaws presumably wanted the hand for a meal. StuRat 03:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

In (i think) Asimov's The Naked Sun, a murder was done using the detached arm of a robot as a club; the robot who lent a hand then had a breakdown because of the conflict between the First and Second Laws of Robotics. —Tamfang 05:07, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Hanged versus Hung

Is there any distinction between the words "hanged" and "hung" ... or are they interchangeable? Specifically, when referring to a prisoner's execution, would one say: "John Smith was hanged last night" or "John Smith was hung last night"? And what about other uses of the verb "to hang" -- such as hanging the clothes out to dry on the clothesline, etc.? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 18:34, 22 June 2007 (UTC))

It's a distinction that some people make and others don't. Those that make the distinction view those who don't as unlettered yahoos. Those that don't make the distinction view those who do as nattering pedants. Different dictionairies will give you their different views on the subject; Merriam-Webster's 11th Collegiate Dictionary, the one most readily nearby, says, with regard to being hanged by the neck until dead: "For both transitive and intransitive senses, the past and past participle hung, as well as hanged, is standard. Hanged is most appropriate for official executions <he was to be hanged, cut down whilst still alive...and his bowels torn out - Louis Allen> but hung is also used <gave orders that she should be hung - Peter Quennell>. Hung is more appropriate for less formal hangings <by morning I'll be hung in effigy> Ronald Reagan" - Nunh-huh 18:42, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

As far as I know, hanged is never used for the meanings of hang unrelated to killing someone. I hung a picture on the wall, hung a flag outside my window, and hung my laundry out to dry; I can't imagine any native English speaker over the age of 8 ever using hanged in those sentences. —Angr 20:00, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I still remember writing some essay in an elementary school class, using "hanged" when I should have used "hung". My teacher drew a little picture of a noose next to my writing.  :) Corvus cornix 23:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

My grandmother insisted that "hanged" was only for people and "hung" for meat. However, as a hanged person soon becomes meat . . . and that is the sort of remark that would lead me to be in serious trouble in my grandmother's house. I do agree with —Angr about how "hanged" isn't used. Bielle 21:26, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I believe the main purpose for the distinction between the two words is to facilitate pun-making. As in, "They said you was hung!" ... "They was right." Friday (talk) 21:30, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

If anyone who doesn't speak English as a first language is reading, the reason why we don't use "hung" in relation to humans is that "hung" also has a colloquial meaning relating to a man's endowment. "The prisoner was hung" is a very funny joke when you're 12 years old... --Charlene 18:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Heh, I was wondering how old that usage is - and the OED has a citation from the 1640s: "They cut off his genitories, (and they say he was hung like an ass)." But there are other uses for the word: a hung jury, for example, never a hanged jury; hungover, never hangedover. In fact, the only time anyone would ever use "hanged" is for an execution, and even then few would dispute the use of "hung." zafiroblue05 | Talk 19:27, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

May/December Marriage

I know that this term refers to a younger person marrying an older person, presumably because May is toward the beginning of the year and December is at the end of the year. I assume the phrase is metaphoric for the younger person being at the "beginning" (early stages) of his/her life and the older person being at the "end" (later stages) of his/her life. Question: Is there any significance to the actual months named, May and December? Or are they just random place holders for an early month and a late month? Further, are the connotations of Spring versus Winter invoked? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 18:40, 22 June 2007 (UTC))

I think that Spring and Winter is a lot more relevant than "early month" / "late month", because at the time when such expressions were first coined, December wasn't always considered to be the last month of the year. In Chaucer's "Merchant's Tale", there are two characters literally named January and May! AnonMoos 03:14, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

The idea appears to be that May is when everything is fertile and blooming, but in December everything is dormant and barren. --Charlene 18:11, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

help with a printing term?

Hi--

I'm wondering if there is a specific term for the printing phenomenon in which one can see the type on the reverse side of page on the page that one is reading--that is, is there a term that denotes when the text on a verso is visible through the recto that precedes it?

I realize this is a rather esoteric question. Any advice/thoughts woudl be much appreciated.

With thanks -- Benzocane 20:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

"Show-through" - cited in numerous glossary sources by querying _define: show-through_ (without the underscores) in Google. -- Cheers, Deborahjay 21:10, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I learned to call it "bleed through", back in the dark ages of hot type, though I have also found the term used in desktop publishing[4]. The term came from a tendency of ink that was too thick for the paper (or paper too thin for the ink) to leak or bleed right through to the back of the sheet. This is not the same as "page bleed", however, which refers to a design technique of taking an image or border right to the edge of the paper, leaving no margin. Bielle 21:39, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

That had been my first thought, actually - but when I performed the same "define" query, the results indicated that "bleed-through" evidently refers to a physical phenomenon involving the interaction between ink and paper. The results for "show-through" seemed more convincing to describe the visual aspect. -- Deborahjay 21:44, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Please take a moment to review the 'How to ask a question' section at the top of every reference desk page, especially the portion about not cross-posting your questions to multiple reference desks. 65.203.61.77 21:51, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm sorry about the x-posting. I posted it twice because it seemed equally related to both topic areas. Also, I altered my question some for the second post, as I was worried its initial phrasing was not entirely clear. Many thanks for the help above! I'm much obliged. Benzocane 22:07, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought it would possibly be called print-through., This term is commonly used with regard to tape recording and describes a similar effect of unwanted information being presented at the wrong time.--Tugjob 23:21, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Technical Term for Italicized Thougts in Literature

Does anyone know what the technical term for italicized thoughts in literature?

Here is an example:

---Example Start---

John opened the door; there was a squeak.

This door needs repair.

John went to the garage to retrieve his tools.

---Example End---

I would be very appreciative for an answer! I know there is a term for it, I just cannot seem to remember to find it via Wikisearch. --67.177.170.96 22:12, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if this is the term you're looking for, but giving the thoughts of a character as if spoken is known as monologue intérieur ("inner monologue"). I don't think this is necessarily rendered in italics; an author who employs such monologue intérieur regularly and always uses italics for it is Philip K. Dick.  --Lambiam^Talk 23:13, 22 June 2007 (UTC)

Incidentally I once read something by a scifi critic that implied that the practice of "flashing italicized thoughts at the reader" can be blamed on one well-known author. (I don't know whom the critic had in mind but Poul Anderson sometimes did it to excess.) —Tamfang 05:16, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Etymology

What's the etymology of jungle fever. : for one sense (interracial relations), see Jungle Fever. iames 22:23, 22 June 2007 (UTC) There was nothing either I, or Control F, could find in the article Miscegenation to which Jungle Fever, the movie, redirects, about any use of the term for interracial relationships. I have removed the link from the Disambiguation Page for this reason. Bielle 02:19, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

jungle is from Hindi or Marathi (originally meaning wasteland), and fever is from Latin febris, according to my nearest etymological dictionary. —Tamfang 05:12, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

And of course putting the two together gives a disease (fever) you'd get in a jungle. I'd guess the combination originated with Westerners first exploring the jungles of Africa and South America and catching new and unnamed diseases. In the racial sense as mentioned above, I assume the jungle part is a reference to Africans coming from the jungle (similar to jungle bunny and probably not considered politically correct) and the use of fever related to the earlier expression. Cyta 09:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

June 23

"Rapier" in Hindi

Since it's not a weapon native to India, is there a translation of "rapier" into Hindi that would differentiate it from any other sort of sword? If so, could I get the transliteration of that? Krys Tamar 03:05, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

kirac (किरच) 196.12.53.9 07:10, 23 June 2007 (UTC)Vineet Chaitanya

Thank You Krys Tamar 23:42, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Are there any words in Nepali that sound like...

... the English-language words mommy or mammy? If so, what do they mean? I particularly need to know if they have a negative (i.e. derogatory, vulgar, etc.) connotation. -- Thanks, Deborahjay 07:52, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

The word māmā means "uncle" (specifically a brother of the mother).[5]  --Lambiam^Talk 09:28, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

copyedit or copy-edit or copy edit?

one word, hyphen or space?

According to dictionary.com, copyedit is a word, and copy-edit is acceptable. Cambridge dictionary doesn't list it though, and would probably be "copy edit" in British English. So short answer, all three are technically correct. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 10:09, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

As to British usage, the OED lists the word under the hyphenated spelling copy-edit (although one of the quotations does spell it as "copy edit"). However, the entry is probably about 40 years old, which is long enough for usage to possibly have changed. --Anonymous, June 24, 2007, 00:20 (UTC).

Guantánamo Bay

The article says that the bay was originally named Guantánamo by the Taíno. Does anyone know what this word means (in the Carib language? the article isn't very clear on what language the Taíno spoke) 68.231.151.161 14:53, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

According to the article on Maipurean languages, Carib is related to, but distinct from Taíno, which is extinct. I don't know how well recorded Taíno was before it became extinct, probably hundreds of years ago. Its closest spoken relative is apparently Wayuu. However, it is possible that we can't know for sure what the name means. Marco polo 18:25, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Machiavelli & Exclamation marks

I am currently reading Machiavelli's De Principatibus in translation, and I noticed the use of exclamation marks at several places. Did Machiavelli use exclamation marks, or is this my translator's bit of freedom?

As an example, in Chapter XVII (see wikisource):

“ Nevertheless a Prince should inspire fear in such a fashion that if he do not win love he may escape hate. For a man may very well be feared and yet not hated, and this will be the case so long as he does not meddle with the property or with the women of his citizens and subjects. ”

In my translation (which is Dutch) "or with the women" is written as "- and the women! -".

--User:Krator (t c) 23:46, 23 June 2007 (UTC)

Il Principe/Capitolo XVII at Wikisource reads (with my highlight!):

“ Debbe non di manco el principe farsi temere in modo, che, se non acquista lo amore, che fugga l'odio; perché può molto bene stare insieme esser temuto e non odiato; il che farà sempre, quando si astenga dalla roba de' sua cittadini e de' sua sudditi, e dalle donne loro: e quando pure li bisognasse procedere contro al sangue di alcuno, farlo quando vi sia iustificazione conveniente e causa manifesta; ma, sopra tutto, astenersi dalla roba d'altri; perché li uomini sdimenticano più presto la morte del padre che la perdita del patrimonio. ”

I see no exclamation marks. A.Z. 03:05, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

A more literal translation than the English above is:

... so long as he does not meddle with the property of his citizens and subjects, and with their women: ...

Macchiavelli's putting "and with their women" at the end produces a little jolt, and gives it an emphasis lost in the flatness of the English translation. I think that the Dutch translator, in that respect, was more true to M's intention.  --Lambiam^Talk 04:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you. --User:Krator (t c) 11:45, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

June 24

Deleted entry

I recently entered a word and my definition of it, then left for a while and came back to discover that what I wrote in no longer existed. Did I do something wrong, or did it get deleted without discussion?24.9.133.42 05:51, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

If all you entered was a dictionary definition, or if what you entered was a neologism that has not established itself in the English language, it was probably speedy deleted. —Angr 06:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

These are actually not criteria for speedy deletion; see Wikipedia:Criteria for speedy deletion#Non-criteria. If we knew the name of the article, we might be able to say more.  --Lambiam^Talk 17:58, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

True; on the other hand, depending on how long the user was gone when he "left for a while", it may have been WP:PRODded and then deleted. —Angr 20:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

The place for word definitions is Wiktionary. Clarityfiend 19:09, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Word for glove maker?

Is there a more specific word for "glove maker" than "milliner" (which usually means "hat maker", but also "accessory maker")? Thanks. --TotoBaggins 14:52, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

• Glover! --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 15:08, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Ouch. Thanks. :) --TotoBaggins 21:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, that terms fits like a ... :-) StuRat 03:54, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Mingler

Hi! Could a native speaker please suggest what kind of a person is described as a mingler in English? I could provide more context, but I'd prefer spontaneous ideas. Thanks! Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 20:10, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I would say it's a person who mixes with lots of people at social events, not staying in one 'safe' group but talking to new people (but not having very long or meaningful conversations) — Matt Eason ^{(Talk &#149; Contribs)} 20:18, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

With emphasis on the not staying put in any one group for long, in my opinion. — Laura Scudder ☎ 17:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, Matt! Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 10:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Although worth pointing out that if you heard this spoken by a British person, it might have been the slang term 'minger' (generally used by the young), which is a derogatory term generally meaning a disgusting person, usually female. Skittle 21:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Using Wikipedia

[Title added by ColinFine 22:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)]

hello!!! I'm a new user on this page. I really want to explore more on this site for my studies. Usually I just enter a subject on the search box, then after viewing the answer, it already ends to my search. How should I search any topics with vast answers?--125.60.248.135 22:01, 24 June 2007 (UTC) In editing a page, how could I make sure that my editing is correct?--125.60.248.135 22:01, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

I hope you could help me in my queries as a first time user on your site.....

THANKS AND GOD BLESS!!!

First, please read the instruction at the beginning of this page: you did sign your post, which many new posters do not; but you did not include a title. (I have added one).

Secondly, questions about Wikipedia are best posted at the Help desk rather than here. But the simple answer to your first question is that searching in Wikipedia is rather limited, and you are much better using a general purpose search engine.

Finally, if you pick 'Help' above the search box, it will take you to a great deal of helpful information, including Editing Wikipedia.

Welcome, and good editing! --ColinFine 22:23, 24 June 2007 (UTC)

Present Perfect Tense used for distant past events

I've asked about this previously but respondents didn't seem to have a clear idea of what I was talking about. It's about what I'd call a local variant of the use of the present perfect tense. Local, because I've only ever heard Australians use it this way. It seems to be a relatively recent phenomenon: I remember exactly the very first time I ever heard it (1992), because it sounded so odd to my ears. It seems to appear when a speaker is narrating events that happened not just in the very recent past where one might expect the present perfect to be appropriate, but also long ago. It seems to be confined to speaking; I've never seen it in writing except when the writer is recording some speaker's exact words.

Here's a good example, from today's The Age (page 3, "Tale of a jockey on the tiles from 'a funny character' who's Queen"). In 1997, the horse trainer Lee Freedman met Queen Elizabeth and had a private conversation with her about her horse Arabian Story, which was a runner in that year's Melbourne Cup. Yesterday, on television, his daughter Emma Freedman was relating a part of that conversation as told to her by her father, and her TV appearance was partly the subject of today's Age article. She was reported as saying yesterday, about the 1997 conversation:

• "Queen Elizabeth looked at him in absolute horror and has gone "You're kidding, aren't you?". And Dad's just started to laugh and she's then proceeded to say "Well, it would have been a lot better if ....".

The 3 underlined bits could just as easily have been "went" (or, preferably, said), "Dad just started", and "she then proceeded". I hear this sort of thing more and more commonly, and wonder if it's becoming a new way of talking. Is it purely a feature of Australian English, or does it turn up elsewhere in the Anglophone world? I'd appreciate any information about its genesis. -- JackofOz 02:37, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

This expensive article seems to be about that. A.Z. 02:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I took a quick look at the article; full of jargons, as you might have expected... the author suggests "the PP in Australian English seems to be more widespread than in British English and of course American English", and proposes "first, the PP in Australian English can be modified by a past adverbial which is definite... Second, the PP can be found in narrative sequences where a temporal progression from one event to the next is expressed... Third, the Australian PP is widely used in informal spoken discourse where the moment of speech is 'reset' as in uses of the historical present. The effect of this shift is a foregrounding one: it makes the narration more vivid... Finally, such a flexibility in use leads to the Australian PP being used for stylistic contrasts in narratives where much tense-switching occurs. Again, this is not unlike what happens in written French where the PS [passé simple] and the PC [passé composé] alternate to express a range of contrasts." Cheers.--K.C. Tang 03:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't know that you could read it (or a part of it) for free. A.Z. 03:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Did you not consider that K.C. Tang might have access to the original journal, in a library for example? --Richardrj ^{talk email} 05:01, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I didn't. A.Z. 05:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Or maybe K.C. Tang is wildly rich and spending $31.49 plus tax to read one article doesn't faze him. At any rate, to me the construction is strongly reminiscent of the historic present, which would sound like: "Queen Elizabeth looks at him in absolute horror and goes "You're kidding, aren't you?". And Dad just starts to laugh and she then proceeds to say "Well, it would have been a lot better if ....". I see we still don't have an article on the historic present and this is the second time I've had to mention it in an RD answer. —Angr 05:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Oh, naughty us who haven't snapped our heels already.  :) The solution is readily apparent, Angr. Be bold and start it yourself. Build it and they will come. -- JackofOz 05:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Back to the meat of the response - yes, it does have a kind of redolence to the historical present, although it's clearly a different construction in itself. I see you also noticed the disjunct between "Queen E. looked at him and has gone ...". -- JackofOz 05:59, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Someone else already has (thanks, A.Z.!), but didn't cite any sources, which is exactly the reason I didn't start it myself. I don't have any sources to cite and don't even know where to start looking for them. —Angr 06:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

This is common, Jack, in English (probably all British in fact) football. Commentators and players often use this construction as opposed to the past tense. Maybe this is because they are talking over replays so it seems like it's happening now, or it's telling a story in the present tense or something but I suspect now it's just the culture. Certainly not as common in everyday speech. Also interesting apart from the tense used, is the use of the verb 'to be' to mean said. 'she has gone "quote"' or 'she wnet "quote"' rather than 'she said "quote"'. This is very common. Cyta 09:14, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

A-ha! So it is more widespread than I was aware of. Thanks indeed. Re the substitute for "said", I think you're referring to the verb "to go", aren't you? -- JackofOz 12:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah of course I am, I feel a bit stupid now.Cyta 07:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

All is forgiven, my son. Go, and sin no more. -- JackofOz 01:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

A side note: the situation is exactly the same as in my native Serbo-Croatian; namely, when reporting events from the past in a narrative manner, either (perfective) present tense (historical present), aorist (semantically corresponding with English PP or French passé simple) or past tense (semantically corresponding with English SP or French passé composé) can be used. However, usage of (historical) present or aorist better expresses the motion of the story than the past tense, and "makes the narration more vivid". Otherwise, outside of narrative contexts (such as storytelling), aorist is fairly dead. I could take the quotation brought from K.C.Tang almost word for word. Oh, and he could spend some of his incountable money on this one :-) Duja► 11:48, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

June 25

If 'photo' means light in some language (greek?), what is that language's word for darkness?

Hi all. I was wondering what the opposite of the word 'photo' would be in whichever language it came from. I've tried translators on the internet but to no avail. Much help appreciated ! Xhin Give Back Our Membership! 06:57, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Photo comes from photos, light, and the verb photizo, to give light or shine, and the opposite of that is skotos, darkness, and the verb skotizo, to make dark. Adam Bishop 07:27, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! So Skotosynthesis would be making energy from darkness? Xhin Give Back Our Membership! 09:24, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Etymologically, maybe, but if you're making energy from the absence of something, how do you know it's the absence of light and not the absence of monkeys? απίθηκοσύνθεση (apithikosynthesis) -- "energy production from the absence of monkeys" :) --TotoBaggins 13:55, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

In any case, the synthesis part of photosynthesis does not mean "making energy" - it means making organic molecules like this one. Gandalf61

If we're making English words (as opposed to transliterating Greek words), the combining form is scoto-, as in scotophobia (fear of the dark), scotoscope (something that lets you see in the dark, a word in use from Pepys' diary of 1664 to Applied Optics in 1964), or scotograph ("an instrument with which a blind person may write"). Wareh 18:39, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I've got a preposition for you...

An editor changed my sentence: "...it begins to break down frequently, as if it is ashamed of what it is being used for." because of the preposition at the end. Adposition is a turgid piece of prose that needs rewriting, and it doesn't say whether this is grammatical or not. Also, should it be "is ashamed" or "were ashamed"? Clarityfiend 07:19, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

As Sir Winston Churchill (alledgedly) said, after being corrected by a pedantic civil servant for ending a sentence in a preposition. 'This is the type of arrant pedantry, up with which I will not put' Cyta 09:18, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

We can't say "*as if it is ashamed of for what it is being used". We need a noun after "ashamed of", not a preposition. It's safer to use subjunctive ("were ashamed") in written English, though not really necessary in speech. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 10:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought the deal with the subjunctive was that it was used for contrary to fact, but not for open statements. So if it may have actually been ashamed, then you'd say is, and if it wasn't ashamed, it was just acting like it was, then you would say were Storeye 10:33, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

No, that's not quite right. The key word is "if", which makes it a conditional phrase. That (ie. it being a conditional phrase) is what governs the subjunctive, not the factuality or otherwise of whatever follows it the word "if". -- JackofOz 12:22, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

But there's also the slightly dated "Had I been ashamed..." instead of "If I had been ashamed", so "if" isn't literally the only thing that governs the subjunctive.--Estrellador* 18:29, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Quite right. The point I was making, though, is that conditional phrases govern the subjunctive. I wasn't saying that the only conditional phrases are those containing the word "if". I've clarified my previous post. -- JackofOz 22:08, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I would just say "ashamed", without "it is" or "it were". Corvus cornix 18:06, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

But you could say "If the book is on the table, please bring it to me" with a conditional clause and no subjunctive. That is because the book may be on the table or it may not. If you say "If the book were on the table, then you would have brought it to me" using the subjunctive then you imply that the book is not on the table and you have not brought it to me. Conditional clauses can be used without the subjunctive. Storeye 01:30, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I'm surprised at JackofOz, who said That (ie. it being a conditional phrase) is what governs the subjunctive, not the factuality or otherwise of whatever follows it the word "if". Try on "Bill's acting as if he's in charge of the project -- did those spineless fuckers in management really give it to him??" In this context, the subjunctive is used with counterfactual conditionals, not all conditionals. Also: "If I was out of line, I apologize." "If he's here right now, then he's heard the whole plan and we're screwed!" Tesseran 06:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

You could also say "as if he were in charge" and "If I were out of line". With the last example, it's not known whether he's here right now or not, so again, you could say "If he were here right now ..." without it necessarily meaning that he's not here. I wonder if the use of "was/is", instead of "were", changes the inherent syntactic conditionality of these expressions. -- JackofOz 00:30, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I would interpret "If he were here right now" to mean "he's not here right now". The way I understood was/is/were with conditional clauses, is that were is used with contrary to fact (if he were here right now... but he's not) and future less vivid (if we were to set off immediately, (but we probobly won't) we would reach the city by nightfall). was is exclusively used with past tense conditionals (If he was here yesterday...) and is is used with open conditionals (if he is here now... (he may or may not be)). Storeye 05:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Spanish translation

How would one say /my father watches the TV after he comes home from work/? and /a unicorn is an animal that is better than the rest/ in Spanish? Thank you.

AlmostCrimes 12:17, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

"Mi padre mira* el televisión después de trabajar" (lit. "my father watches television after work", but for some reason the verb "mirar" doesn't feel right) and "el unicornio es un animal mejor que los demás" (lit. "the unicorn is an animal better than the rest"). Eran of Arcadia 16:30, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be "mira al televisión"? Corvus cornix 18:07, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

"Mira la televisión" Skarioffszky 20:02, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Or "el TV", since Spanglish is alive and well . . . Eran of Arcadia 02:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The abbreviation "TV" is used in Spanish as well, as far as I know, and I'm pretty sure they say "la TV" when it stands in place of "la televisión". They may use "el TV" in place of "el televisor" (i.e. the television as a device, not what you watch on it). Mike Dillon 16:10, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Doesn't "mira" take "a" for the object of the verb? Corvus cornix 15:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It does if the direct object is a specific person or personified object. That usage is often called the "personal a". Mike Dillon 16:05, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

How about Mi padre mira la televisión al llegar a casa después de trabajar? That's "My father watches television upon arriving home after work(ing). -- Mwalcoff 22:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The verb that goes with TV (at least where I come from, Spain) is ver, not mirar. "Mi padre mira la televisión" sounds more like "my father looks at the TV". So it would be, "Mi padre ve la televisión cuando vuelve a casa después de trabajar". As to the second, "Un unicornio es un animal que es mejor que el resto", at least literally. --RiseRover|^talk 19:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Triple s in geographical names

The possessive apostrophe is commonly dropped in geographical names, eg. Wilsons Promontory, Pikes Peak, etc. These usages are usually governed by statute. In the USA it's the US Board on Geographic Names. In Australia, each state has its own arrangements, such as Victoria's Geographic Place Names Act 1998. We have a highway in Australia called the Princes Highway, named after a former Prince of Wales (later King Edward VIII). My question is a speculative one, dealing with a theoretical similar highway named after a princess. My guess is that it would be "Princesss Highway". The only problem is that has 3 s's in a row. Would that mitigate against such a naming, or are there precedents for such a sibilant monstrosity? -- JackofOz 12:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

It's common practice to just stick an apostrophe on the end of a word ending in s, with no additional s after that, so presumably they'd take that route (for that route). --TotoBaggins 13:58, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Bass's Dock, near Ipswich in England, seems to be spelt with the apostrophe everywhere on the Internet... except here:

http://www.photographersdirect.com/buyers/stockphoto.asp?imageid=1284089

Just to confuse things, a landmark in Toronto -- the original main entrance to the CNE grounds -- is the Princes' Gate, which is correctly spelled with one S and an apostrophe because it is named after two princes.

Another sort of triple-S situation occurs with the historic Scottish counties of Inverness-shire and Ross-shire. These are usually spelled with a hyphen like that, but the unhyphenated style with a true triple S is not completely unknown.

--Anonymous, June 25, 2007, 20:23 (UTC).

Thanks. I think this will forever remain a theoretical possibility, if only because many people already mispronounce and/or misspell the Princes Highway as the "Princess Highway", so having a separate correctly spelled "Princess' Highway" would cause endless confusion. Besides, there are no princesses of whom Australians are so fond as to warrant such an honour in these republican times. -- JackofOz 04:38, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Not even Princess Di? Even fierce antiroyalists like Sinéad O'Connor like her. —Angr 05:26, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Much loved, but I suspect the time for memorials to her is now past. She's been somewhat overshadowed of recent years by Crown Princess Mary of Denmark, who probably wouldn't qualify anymore because she had to give up her Australian citizenship to marry Freddy boy. (Despite that, she's regularly referred to in the media as "Australia's Princess Mary" or similar, which I'm sure is very confusing to young Australians). -- JackofOz 06:00, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Although a freak set of a bit over 200 sudden deaths/abdications/marriages to inappropriate people/religious conversions would result in her being Queen of England (or Queen Consort, or whatever the King's wife is normally called), assuming the sudden lack of faith in the monarchy causes an upswelling of support for a republic. Confusing Manifestation 05:10, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Very true. However, that's about on the same scale of likelihood as ... why, Australia having a "Princesss Highway".  :)- JackofOz 05:25, 6 July 2007 (UTC)

Toward vs towards

When is it correst to use toward vs towards?

Basically, either is correct, and they are interchangeable. The only rule is that you should be consistent, at least within a document, and use only one or the other. As I understand it, "toward" is preferred in written American English, while "towards" is preferred in written British English. I think that "towards" may be more common in spoken English on both sides of the Atlantic. Marco polo 14:41, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I hardly ever see it used now, but toward is the only acceptable spelling when used as an adjective. The -s in towards is an Old English adverbial-genitive ending. — Gareth Hughes 14:48, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

That "toward" is preferred in American is news to me, an American. I hardly ever use "toward", and can't come up with an example where I would use it. Corvus cornix 18:09, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Not even in "Come toward me."? --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 18:42, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

No. Though I would say "untoward". Corvus cornix 18:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Untoward is an adjective (except in rare circumstances where it's a preposition), and thus shouldn't take the -s ending. In the sentence Come toward me, toward is a proposition. Traditionally, it would receive the adverbial-genitive ending, and Come towards me is still more common in British English. However, the form toward was an important regional variant, especially in the Westcountry, which seems to have been influential on the formation of American English. — Gareth Hughes 19:45, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, I'm quite aware that untoward is an adjective. Corvus cornix 15:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The OED gives a very good synopsis of this:

In English the history of -wards as an advb. suffix is identical with that of -ward (see -WARD 3 and 4); beside every adv. in -ward there has always existed (at least potentially) a parallel formation in -wards, and vice versa. The two forms are so nearly synonymous (the general sense of the advs. being ‘in the direction indicated by the first element of the compound’) that the choice between them is mostly determined by some notion of euphony in the particular context; some persons, apparently, have a fixed preference for the one or the other form. Sometimes, however, the difference in the form of the suffix corresponds to a difference in the shade of meaning conveyed, though it would not be possible to give any general rule that would be universally accepted. Where the meaning to be expressed includes the notion of manner as well as direction of movement, -wards is required, as in ‘to walk backwards’, ‘to write backwards’. In other instances the distinction seems to be that -wards is used when the adv. is meant to express a definite direction in contrast with other directions: thus we say ‘it is moving forwards if it is moving at all’, but ‘to come forward’, not ‘forwards’ (see further the note on FORWARD adv.); so ‘to travel eastward’ expresses generally the notion of travelling in the direction of an eastern goal, ‘to travel eastwards’ implies that the direction is thought of as contrasted with other possible directions. Hence -wards seems to have an air of precision which has caused it to be avoided in poetical use. There appears to be no appreciable difference in meaning between the prepositions TOWARD and TOWARDS; the latter is now, at least in British use, more common colloquially. The now obsolete prepositions FROMWARD and FROMWARDS appear to have been perfectly synonymous.[6]

Maybe I'm a grammar geek, but I find this fascinating. — Gareth Hughes 14:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The American preference for "toward" in writing was news to me when I began my career as an editor, but if you look at most (all?) American dictionaries, you will find that "toward" is the first form listed. Therefore, it is considered the "preferred" form by editors, who in turn enforce it in published material. I am American, and, as I said, I think that in spoken American English, "towards" is certainly more common. Marco polo 14:44, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems like an odd thing to enforce. Sure, there are some sentences in which one or other variant sounds wrong, but, as the OED points out, most people have a subconscious feel for the 'right' variety. Some editors' style manuals are too prescriptive on this kind of issue. — Gareth Hughes 15:11, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

No need to apologise for being a grammar geek, Gareth. The world would be lost without us. -- JackofOz 22:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

a/an FAQ

Should FAQ, when speaking of the document itself, be preceded by "a" or "an"? I've always used "an" since the first syllable of "FAQ" is pronounced "eff" but then I've recently seen it preceded by an "a". I'm guessing that's because it actually stands for Frequently which obviously doesn't start with a vowel sound. Dismas|^(talk) 18:03, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

It depends on whether you pronounce it like "fack" or like "f. a. q.". Corvus cornix 18:10, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Most people I know that I've heard seem to pronounce it out as "fack", thus a FAQ makes sense. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 18:40, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

According to our FAQ article: "Since the acronym originated in textual media, its pronunciation varies; both "fak" and "F.A.Q." are commonly heard." Looking this up on dictionary.com gives two pronunciations: /fæk, ˈɛfˈeɪˈkyu/.[7]  --Lambiam^Talk 19:28, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't pronouce it "fack" so I hadn't thought of that. Thanks! Dismas|^(talk) 02:21, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I guess the harder question is what do you put if writing it, 'a' or 'an'? Personally I would go for 'an', since I've always pronounced it "eff ay queue" rather than "fack". --Richardrj ^{talk email} 15:04, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Me too. Never heard "fack" till this question (but I do lead a very secluded life). Tangentially, and I know some would disagree, but I'd only call it an acronym when it's pronounced "fack". When it's "eff ay queue", it's an initialism. -- JackofOz 22:14, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I've never heard it pronounced anything but "fack", and certainly never "eff eh cue". I didn't even know anyone pronounced it that way. To me, it's an acronym. --Charlene 08:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

French etymological dictionary

Can anyone recommend a good French etymological dictionary? I have lots of French-English dictionaries that I used when I was younger but now I am more interested in a real French dictionary. Ideally it would trace etymologies through Latin and Old French. And it would be affordable, and not too enormous! I was trying to search Google and Amazon but I wouldn't even know where to begin. Adam Bishop 21:25, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

I have a good one; it's the Larousse Nouveau dictionnaire étymologique et historique, ISBN 2-03-710006-X, by Albert Dauzat, Jean Dubois, and Henri Mitterand. It traces words back through Old French to Latin and has a good summary of the sound changes that took place between Latin and French. It's compact and paperback, and presumably affordable or I wouldn't have bought it, though to be honest at this point I have absolutely no idea where or when I bought it or how much it cost. —Angr 21:46, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Great, thanks! Adam Bishop 07:43, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Tones in Mandarin Songs

When a person sings in Mandarin, do the tones get more relaxed to fit the music? --Duomillia 23:43, 25 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, they do, so sometimes it's not easy to decipher what the singer sings. The "musical license" is not so lax in Cantonese, or some other Chinese spoken variants, though. You can take a look at this article, whose bibliography is useful. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 01:27, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Interesting article, although a bit poorly written. The link above is to an HTML conversion. Here is the original PDF. --Tugbug 23:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

June 26

Ontario Secondary School Literacy Test

Hello. I googled the title above; I can only find tests later than 2005 and a sample. Where can I find tests dated 2005 or earlier? Thanks in advance. --Mayfare 01:41, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Which

Which Norwegian dialect is most different from Danish?199.126.28.20 14:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Nynorsk is the Norwegian standard most distant from Danish, compared to Bokmål. The unofficial Høgnorsk is further still from Danish. — Gareth Hughes 15:16, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Those are orthographies. I'm talking about dialects. Thanks for your answer though.199.126.28.20 13:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, there are different grammatical features between BN and NN (not to mention the whole "Abominable Snowman" incident). AnonMoos 16:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, these are from the Orthographies, not the Phonologies.199.126.28.20 23:30, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

They are different varieties of Norwegian, not just systems of spelling. — Gareth Hughes 22:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Actually, they aren't. They are systems of spelling that do not reflect dialect.199.126.28.20 23:31, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Dude: 1) You don't seem to know as much as you think you know. 2) If you think you know it all, why are you asking questions in the first place? 3) Please don't add nonsensical comments to my user talk page. AnonMoos 06:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Trait

How is it pronounced? Does it have a silent "t" at the end? 82.153.126.93 17:17, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

No, the "t" is not silent. It is pronounced so as to rhyme with "great". (JosephASpadaro 17:35, 26 June 2007 (UTC))

Well, the wiktionary entry (wikt:trait) lists a pronounciation with a silent T, but here in the states, I have never heard it pronounced that way. I assume it has something to do with the French. IPA for my pronunciation /treɪt/.-Andrew c 18:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

The Longman Pronunciation Dictionary says the t-less pronunciation /treɪ/ is standard in Britain, but the t-ful pronunciation /treɪt/ is also used there; in the U.S. only the t-ful pronunciation is used. No word on Canada, Australia, et al. —Angr 18:53, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I've heard both in the UK. Strange that the US shun the French pronunciation which is embraced with words like homage.  slυмgυм [ ←→ ] 18:57, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Well, English speakers (throughout the world!) are nothing if not inconsistent. Garage is a better example, though; I'd pronounce homage [ˈhɑmɪdʒ], not [oˈmɑʒ]. —Angr 19:15, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

FYI, [r] is a trilled r. It's proabably more like [tɹeɪt]. Mike Dillon 19:24, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I have occasionally heard the "tray" version. I remember a teacher of mine who terrorised us students in various ways (or so we perceived it), and was always attributing poor performance to certain unnamed negative "trays" of character we supposedly possessed. (I wonder what ever happened to him. Hello, Mr. H, if you're reading this.) -- JackofOz 22:08, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Chambers Dictionary gives both pronunciations, in my experience, the silent t pronunciation is rather poseur-ish.DuncanHill 23:47, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

Regarding the trill, as International Phonetic Alphabet for English states, the r in English is often written /r/ in broad transcription, not ɹ. But Mike Dillon is absolutely correct on the technical uses of these characters in the International Phonetic Alphabet.-Andrew c 22:55, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

I think we actually used [r] in my Phonetics class in college and I didn't realize until recently that it's an alveolar trill, not an alveolar approximant. I think it's kind of unfortunate that the distinction is ignored in English transcriptions. Mike Dillon 23:59, 26 June 2007 (UTC)

For some of us it's not a trilled R, we pronounce it more like a w. Rhotacism is not to be laughed at! (Unless it's Jonathan Ross's). DuncanHill 12:09, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Well I personally have never heard it any other way than with the t pronounced at the end, and I've lived in the north and south of England, so I don't know if this is a British English thing. Maybe I just knew the wrong class of people? Cyta 07:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Is it somewhat similar to the essex dialect where butter has 3 'silent' ts (although theres some other slight sound in their place)? or is it more related to trying to be sophisticated and french? 213.48.15.234 09:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It's a French word, meaning "line" or "feature (of the face or personality)" which has been adopted as a loan word, and is now undergoing a process of assimilation. Since English typically keeps the original spelling of loan words from languages who use the Latin alphabet, there is a period of uncertainty over pronunciation, and then the word normally joins the class of loan words which are pronounced neither as they are spelled in English, nor as they are in the original language(like, for example, courage and language).SaundersW 11:39, 27 June 2007 (UTC) (added signature)

Cool, do we have an article on the essexy pronounciation that i mentionned? 213.48.15.234 13:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Is glottal stop what you're looking for? 84.239.133.38 16:34, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, glottal stop would be my answer as well. Final /t/ in many English varieties, rather than altogether deleted, is weakened. Incidentally, I find native English speakers to be totally unaware of just how often the glottal stop appears in their speech. As a speaker of another language that makes prolific use of this sound, this is immediately obvious to me, although there, it's phonemic and the degree of glottalization is more pronounced. In linguistics texts, "uh-oh" is the most widely cited example of what a glottal stop sounds like, although for many speakers of American English "wait", "trait" (if they occur at the end of a sentence) and especially "kitten" will do fine. There is a small explantion of this at glottal stop#Occurrence. — Zerida 06:14, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Anglo-Saxon equivalent of loanwords

I was thinking of English words which are borrowed, and I wonder why they were borrowed:

• "cousin", "uncle"
• "age"
• "empathy"
• "candor"

How would these concepts have been expressed in English before the Norman Conquest?

age = ieldu a feminine abstract noun. DuncanHill 00:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

• fæderan sunu (paternal uncle's son), mōdrigan sunu (maternal aunt's son), mōdrige (maternal aunt's daughter)
• fædera (paternal uncle), ēam (maternal uncle)
• ield (age)
• mōdes styrung (stiring of mood)
• heortes openian (open of heart)

— Gareth Hughes 00:07, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

And many more words beside. Beef certainly existed before the Norman conquest, even though "beef" is a Norman borrowing. It was the contexts in which they were used more that related many things to the meanings they have today. Consider also cognates borrowed separately into English: Guardian (of French origin) and Warden (of Norman origin) are direct cognates, but have taken two slightly different meanings in English. Chase (cf. French chasser) and catch (cf. Norman cachi) are also direct cognates, but have taken two separate meanings in English—while we have retained the Germanic "hunt" to mean what these words mean in French and Norman. Many more such examples exist in English. The Jade Knight 07:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Different words were borrowed for different reasons. The language of the educated was Latin for much of Anglo-Saxon (~500-1066 AD) times, although (old) English was also used. Danish vikings ran a lot of the North and East of the country (Danelaw) pre-conquest. Norman French (which had Norse influences) became the language of government for a few hundred years after the conquest but the ordinary people continued to use (middle) English. Later writers, short of words, would often borrow from other languages as well, especially Latin and Greek. And there was some limited Celtic influence. Now how each individual word was chosen from this mix of influences is hard to trace. But certain trends are noticable, for example, beef for the meat as the Norman rulers would eat it, cow for the animal as the Anglo-Saxons would grow it. Everyday words tend to be more Germanic. But for most words you simply can't say why one was chosen over another. Also as mentioned by Jade above, instead of simply choosing one of two options to express something, subtly different meanings emerged. I can recommend The Adventure of English by Melvin Bragg which discusses the different influences and the amazing persistance and spread of the English language to this day. Cyta 07:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Wouldn't "beef" have been the AS equivalent of "cow flesh"? Corvus cornix 16:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think cow flesh May have been AS for beef rather than vice versa. Or maybe something like cu flaesc, I am not sure? 137.138.46.155 06:56, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know if the Old English word for "beef" is attested, but I doubt it would be cūflǣsc, since that would imply the meat specifically of a female cow, and beef can just as easily be from a bull or ox. Hrīðerflǣsc is more likely to have been the word; hrīðer was the generic word for Bos taurus without regard to sex or reproductive ability. Modern English is lacking a singular form for "cattle". —Angr 21:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Interesting Angr, the modern German is Rindfleisch, it sounds similar enough to have had the same root, so that sounds good to me. Cyta 07:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Yes, hrīðer is related to Rind. But hrīðerflǣsc is just my guess - AFAIK it isn't actually attested in Old English, so we don't know if that was actually their word for beef. —Angr 00:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Ox or Beef would be the Modern English singular for cattle. DuncanHill 21:03, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought ox meant specifically a castrated male, thus, heifers, cows, and intact bulls aren't oxen. And I thought a beef was a full-grown Bos taurus grown for its meat, thus a calf isn't a beef, and neither is a milch cow. There's the word neat, which seems to mean an individual head of cattle, but it's also pretty archaic and not part of most people's active vocabulary (in the relevant meaning). —Angr 21:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Cattlebeast is relatively common in these parts, or even just 'head'. --Charlene 08:07, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

"Ox" is given by Chambers Dictionary as "a general name for male or female of common domestic cattle" it does go on to give the usage for a castrated male also, for "beef" it has "an ox, especially one fattenned for the butcher", and I've certainly heard (and used) both ox and beef to refer to individuals of the bos genus without confusion, when talking to farmers. "Beast" is used generally for any animal, haven't heard "cattlebeast" before, but it makes sense, and would be immediately understandable. "Head" I've only heard when talking of a number (eg "Six head of cattle") but it wouldn't surprise me to hear it used as Charlene describes. DuncanHill 08:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

"Neat" I must admit I'm not familiar with - though "Neat's foot oil" I have heard of, for some reason "neat" sounds to me as though it would be a Northern English word (I grew up in Cornwall, of Moonraker stock, so am largely unfamiliar with Norther farming terminology). DuncanHill 08:28, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

You do occasionally see the plural of cow written as "beeves". Corvus cornix 19:57, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Amusingly enough, the words cow and beef are doublets; both come directly from Proto-Indo-European *gʷōu-. —Angr 00:56, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

June 27

Tacitus quote spelling

In various websites the famous desolation quote is spelt this way: "Ubi solitudinem facuint pacem appellant" the u and i in faciunt are reversed. Is this just a spelling error, or is it a grammatical feature in Latin

"Ubi solitudinem facuint pacem appellant" gets 9 Google hits, while "Ubi solitudinem faciunt pacem appellant" gets 10,000, so I think it's safe to say it's just a typo. --TotoBaggins 15:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

faciunt is the present tense third person plural form of facio. It's been a while, but I don't think any Latin verbs that take -int as an ending. So just a spelling error. — Laura Scudder ☎ 16:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

(I guess sint ends in -int.) The quote from Tacitus' Calgacus has been duly corrected above. See Tac. Hist. 4.17 for a nice parallel. Wareh 17:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The 3rd plural of the future perfect and the perfect subjunctive end in -erint; I think that and sint are the only times a verb ends in -int in Latin. So the only form of facio that ends in -int is fēcerint, both "they will have done" and "they may have done". —Angr

Meaning of these lyrics?

In the Nelly Furtado song "All Good Things" it says

Dogs were whistling a new tune

Barking at the new moon

Hoping it would come soon so that they could die

I mean it sounds all good and poetic but what exactly does it mean and what does it have to do with the rest of the song? Why do the dogs want to die? --124.180.103.210 13:01, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Dogs generally have a great zeal for life, so I can't comment on that, but I note that dogs are unlikely to bark at the new moon, since it's (mostly) invisible. --TotoBaggins 15:29, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

My interpretation is that the dogs do not want to die, but "all good things come to an end." Perhaps the dogs want to see the moon again so they can die happy, but their eventual death is certain, which is the theme of the song.--El aprendelenguas 18:21, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Norwegian Continuum

Is it correct to say that Danish dialects and Norwegian dialects form a continuum?199.126.28.20 13:23, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Have you checked out Differences between Norwegian Bokmål and Standard Danish?-Andrew c 14:42, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think that it is fair to say that Danish dialects and Norwegian dialects do not form a continuum. The two dialect groups are separated by a rather large body of water that really prevents the existence of a continuum. There are no Norwegian dialects that are closer to a Danish dialect than they are to a Norwegian standard form. On the other hand, a good case can be made that Scandinavian dialects in general do form a continuum, in which a continuum exists between the dialects of Norway and those of western Sweden on the one hand, and between the dialects of southern Sweden, such as Scanian, and those of Denmark on the other. Marco polo 16:05, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

what is the english equivalent of the name Diego?

what is the english equivalent of the name Diego? Gzuckier 14:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

James. --LarryMac | Talk 14:27, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

no kidding? what about jaime? never mind, I read the link. (and thank you)Gzuckier::

Jaime is addressed at the bottom of the article I linked. OK, never mind :-) --LarryMac | Talk 14:37, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The sequence Ya'acov => Iakobos => Iacobus => Iacomus => Gemmes => James also explains why supporters of James II of England were called "Jacobins" or "Jacobites". --TotoBaggins 15:36, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

You may also see "Tiago" and "Iago" in Spanish. For example, Saint James is "Santiago". (Santiago de Compostela) Corvus cornix 16:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

According to the article San Diego, Diego is the Spanish name of Didacus of Alcalá, so it's a completely different name from James. A Dictionary of First Names (ISBN 0-19-211651-7) says, "Although it is often claimed to be an aphetic form of Santiago, it is clear that its regular Latin form in the Middle Ages was Didacus. This may possibly be a derivative of Greek didakhē teaching, but it is more likely that it represents a Latinized form of some native Iberian name." —Angr 17:38, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

What's the symbol "L" mean?

What is the symbol at the start of "L-ascorbate" which is used, for example, in the article on Vitamin C. (I'm referring to the small, uppercase "L".) Does this have a special name? How would you vocalize this? That is, would one say "ell ascorbate" or would you say something else? Why is it used and written the way it is in the article? --JAXHERE | ^Talk 15:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I can't claim to understand it really, but see Enantiomer. This has a bit about naming conventions including the "l-whatever". Friday (talk) 15:46, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

More at Optical_isomerism#Naming_conventions DuncanHill 15:47, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

The articles help a bit into putting this into context and I get the impression that it might be an anglicized greek letter, but what is the symbol called? And how is it vocalized when used in the example above? --JAXHERE | ^Talk 15:57, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It looks like it's sometimes written as a plain old "l", pronounced, I assume "el". Not sure why they use the special l unless it's just to draw attention to the fact that it's about chirality. Friday (talk) 15:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

L and D are short for Laevo- and Dextro-, from Latin (not Greek) roots meaning "left" and "right" -- see Optical_isomerism#By_configuration:_D-_and_L- AnonMoos 16:11, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

So, if a person were giving a talk about this topic would they say "Laevo ascorbate" ? --JAXHERE | ^Talk 16:16, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Usually people say "L-ascorbate". Shorter and easier. — Laura Scudder ☎ 16:25, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Other famous L's are L-Dopa, which played a starring role in Awakenings, and L-Cysteine, a food additive mainly sourced from the hair of Chinese people (!). --TotoBaggins 19:14, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Two notes: first, in American spelling it's "levo" rather than "laevo". Second, I've never seen the abbreviation written as a small capital before, only as an ordinary capital "L" or a lower case "l" ... but while I've read a number of books things that mention such chemicals, I haven't studied organic chemistry. --Anonymous, June 27, 22:45 (UTC).

Is this correct?

Then, maybe you'd be able to believe that the apple tree might be a really, truly story.

Is this really, truly a correct way say a story is factual rather than fictional? It seems off to me, but it was printed that way in a 100 year old book. If it is correct, why does it seems so wrong?--BirgitteSB 18:06, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

What sounds off to me is the use of truly as an adjective. I'd probably have said "really a true story". —Angr 18:12, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

(edit conflict after Angr): According to Wiktionary:truly, truly can only be used as an adverb, and therefore, it cannot modify a noun (in this case, story). The use of really is also questionable because of the comma; it's another adverb in the place of an adjective.--El aprendelenguas 18:17, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

If it was published that way, I'd think it could be intentional. Colloquially, and for effect, you can turn almost anything into an adjectival attribute. It's the exclamatory sense "Really, truly!" that's probably relevant (compare "a gee-whiz demonstration," "a golly golly wow revelation," etc.). Wareh 18:50, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think in modern books it might be written as:

...might be a "really, truly!" story.

or something to that effect. At least that looks less painful to me... Tesseran 23:33, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Hitler was a vegetarian

Sometimes people use the "argument" that since Hitler was a vegetarian, then being vegetarian is wrong. Is this a kind of logical fallacy? It's obviously faulty logic, but I'm wondering what kind. - Zepheus <ゼィフィアス> 20:43, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Correlation does not imply causation would seem to cover it. DuncanHill 20:52, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Association fallacy. We actually mention the Hitler example in the article. Replacing 'A' with Hitler, 'B' with evil and 'C' with vegetarian, we get:

Premise Hitler is evil

Premise Hitler is also a vegetarian

Conclusion Therefore, all vegetarians are evil

— Matt Eason ^{(Talk &#149; Contribs)} 21:03, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks! Not that people who espouse this argument will ever comprehend this article. Maybe you guys can answer my next question as well. - Zepheus <ゼィフィアス> 23:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Hitler wore a mustache. (So did Stalin for that matter) Therefore, wearing a mustache is evil. --Duomillia 23:08, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Yeah. I love it. I actually saw this vegetarian argument being used on a Yahoo! message board. I argued that since Hitler was also a painter and a writer, that those were evil too. - Zepheus <ゼィフィアス> 23:59, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

There were also the parody ads that said, "Hitler wore khakis". —Angr 04:54, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

And there is the other argument, "Hitler was a vegetarian. Therefore Hitler was evil."  --Lambiam^Talk 05:33, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Some of us not-evil vegetarians would like to point out that the vegetarianism of Adolf Hitler is disputed.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I suspect people use this as an argument to point out the fallacy of saying that because Hitler did something it's bad, rather than seriously believing this is why vegetarianism is evil. Reductio ad Hitlerum is a common argument and this is a good example to make the point. Oh and Saddam Hussein, Robert Mugabe and Tom Selleck also has moustaches, one man may not prove anything but the evidence is adding up... Cyta 07:01, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Hitler was a wikipedian. 213.48.15.234 10:25, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

• Are we to conclude that all wikipedians are vegetarians with moustaches? JAXHERE | ^Talk 16:59, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Life is unfair.

I remember in elementary school that when kids would complain that something was "unfair," the teacher would respond with "life is unfair." How does this justify an unfair action? Is there a logical fallacy in this? Thanks in advance. - Zepheus <ゼィフィアス> 23:04, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know that there is a logical fallacy here. It seems to me that the teacher is not saying "life is unfair, therefore I can treat you unfairly," but rather "I understand that you feel this is 'unfair,' but life does not always conform to your conception of 'fairness.'" Carom 23:15, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

It always seems to me to be used in the sense of "I don't care if it's unfair". DuncanHill 23:19, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I see it as "Yes, this is unfair. What you have neglected to consider is that not everything is fair, and the unfairness of something is not a valid objection to it." [Edit: I've always heard "life's not fair" instead, not that it matters.] Tesseran 23:26, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

I think you're right Tesseran that it's more commonly "Life's not fair." It's been a while since elementary school. This might head into a more philosophical discussion unsuited to this board, but I often felt that teachers/adults/whoever would use "life's not fair" essentially as justification for behaving in an unfair matter, essentially an easy out. Instead of taking the time to make the situation equitable, simply saying a phrase in the guise of teaching someone a life lesson. - Zepheus <ゼィフィアス> 23:54, 27 June 2007 (UTC)

Google counts: about 60,600 for "life's not fair", about 139,000 for "life is unfair". The Princess Bride has a nice expansion on the phrase: "Life is pain, Highness. Anyone who says differently is selling something." (At least, that's the wording in the movie; I don't know about the book.) --Anonymous, June 28, 2007, 00:10 (UTC).

Not that it's especially relevant, but the variant I remember is "life isn't fair," which returns 182,000 google hits (for what those are worth). Carom 00:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

The extension my mother always used when I was a kid was, "Life isn't fair. John F. Kennedy said that, and look what happened to him." Thus teaching me that complaining that life isn't fair will get you elected president. Or assassinated. Or something... —Angr 04:57, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I bet that if the complaint is Aw mom/teacher, that's not fair!, the response is: Life isn't fair. If, on the other hand, the kid complains: Aw mom/teacher, that is unfair!, the response is going to be: Life is unfair. In other words, the response is morphed to echo (and thereby ever so slightly mock) the complaint. I don't think that as a response it is meant to stand up to ethical or philosophical scrutiny. It is a response that is selected for being unanswerable, and is a way of saying: I don't want to discuss this.  --Lambiam^Talk 05:30, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Or "You're right, but I'm not going to do anything about it."

As to the morphing, I agree. But I'm not going to do anything about it. :-) In Lambiam's first example, I think "that's not fair" should draw the response "life's not fair", while it's "that isn't fair" that gets "life isn't fair". --Anonymous, June 28, 06:45 (UTC).

The book does not necessarily correspond to the film (even in terms of major plot elements). I'm not sure if the statement is even in the book. The Jade Knight 09:18, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I used to tell my kids "Fare is what you give to the bus driver." in an attempt to drive home the idea that what they wanted (what's "fair") isn't necessarily what they should expect. JAXHERE | ^Talk 17:07, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

"Life is unfair, but it's unfair for everybody, so that makes it fair". See Central limit theorem Gzuckier 17:55, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

And my experience as a teacher was that student's ideas of what was 'unfair' were not always the best actions. For example, my students object that it is 'unfair' that students with severe learning disabilities get to take a shorter, easier test than they do, without considering the difference in difficulty it will pose to those students. Or they will complain that it is 'unfair' that some other class is taking a field trip and they are not, as if different classes don't do different activities every day. Children's ideas of fairness often require perfect sameness, and 'life is unfair' generally is a reminder that conditions of perfect sameness rarely occur in reality. -FisherQueen (Talk) 18:00, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It does rather bug me that people will tell kids not to expect fairness. Sure, there are factors they can't see which means that the apparent unfairness is actually fairer than they think, and so "life is unfair" is a lie-to-children, but it would be a better world if more people had an expectation of justice and a willingness to do something about it, and stifling that in children isn't going to work towards that. Marnanel 18:15, 28 June 2007 (UTC) (not a teacher, just a parent)

To reply to a complaint of unfairness with "life's unfair" tells a child that you don't care about fairness. As well as inevitably undermining the child's respect for and trust in you, it also teaches the child that "it's OK to be unfair". Hardly the behaviour of a responsible adult. Life is, indeed, often unfair, but that does not absolve us of our moral duty to promote fairness, rather it makes it even more of an imperative for us to act as fairly as we can, and to support and encourage others who seek fair treatment. DuncanHill 20:38, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

FisherQueen has it really; the lack of fairness usually complained about generally corresponds to things not going the way the child wants, rather than any real inequality. "That's not fair!" "You keep saying that. I wonder, what is your basis for comparison?" Skittle 21:12, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

Sorry but the idea that we teach kids to only expect fairness because otherwise it would 'stifle' them is A) A little patronising to the children (as if they minds are purely what teachers/family tell them and they are entirely influenced by what they are told) B) A little stuck in the realm of 'ideal world' scenario rather than reality. The key is to give children the encouragement to question things they disagree with, to push for what they believe in and to stand up against unacceptable behaviour. In doings so children will also need to learn the vital lessons that in real-life they will have to accept balances of power against them, they'll have to accept that sometimes what they say is not the 'be all and end all', that sometimes the things they fight to change will not happen. Maybe not forever, maybe not always, but at times they will encounter unfairness. I suspect that a child's understanding of fairness is gathered from slightly more sources than simply their calling 'unfair' and being told "life is unfair'. Or perhaps i'm expecting far too much from the children? ny156uk 01:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I never once said that we should "teach kids to only expect fairness". I said that we shouldn't tell them not to expect fairness on the grounds that life in general is not fair. These are not the same thing, so you're attacking a straw man. Marnanel 11:26, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

If a child says "that's not fair" then talk with them about why or how it isn't fair, explain to them why it needs to be that way, etc. To come out with "Life's not fair" does nothing constructive. DuncanHill 11:57, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Well said. Marnanel 12:22, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I definitely agree with DuncanHill on this one. I often feel that the phrase hid the message "it's OK to be unfair," when figures of authority should be promoting equality and explaining it to their children/students. I loved this quote, "that does not absolve us of our moral duty to promote fairness." Well said. Thanks for the excellent dialogue; it's so much more thoughtful and well-written than, say, the IMDb Message Boards. - Zepheus <ゼィフィアス> 17:14, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I don't know ... but I will just add this. When kids (children) say "that's not fair" -- it's really just kid-speak for "I didn't get my way" or "I didn't get what I want." Typically, the child is not trying to be "fair" (to all parties involved), but just "fair" to himself and his own self-interests. In other words, the child defines "fair" differently than the adult does. Of course, from a developmental standpoint, children do live/act in a more ego-centric manner, while adults are more centered on others / the community at large / the family / the group / the society / etc. (JosephASpadaro 02:49, 2 July 2007 (UTC))

In what context did Jimmy Carter famously say "life is unfair?" And what does this topic have to do with language? —Tamfang 03:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Dunno, but Malcolm Fraser equally famously said "Life wasn't meant to be easy". -- JackofOz 07:28, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

And I was completely put off reading M. Scott Peck's book The Road Less Traveled by the opening sentence: "Life is hard". I didn't want to know that. -- JackofOz 21:50, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

June 28

Kalantaryan

The name Kalantaryan (Калантарян) was recently added in Sergey Lavrov. This article ("Sergey Lavrov has georgian roots, but armenian blood") says he is the son of an armenian from Georgia (country). Is this his fathers name? -- Cherubino 21:34, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

It seems to have been added to both the English and Russian articles on June 12 by IP editors. There's no explanation given. A google search didn't shed any light on it, either (nothing but Wikipedia and Wikipedia-derived stuff). Weird. --Reuben 22:37, 28 June 2007 (UTC)

I know that the previous foreign minister, Igor Ivanov, is half-Georgian. He knows the language well and used to mediate between Georgia and Abkhazia. As for Lavrov, the claim in Russian Wikipedia is taken from an Azerbaijani online resource which cites an Armenian newspaper's report about Lavrov's press conference in Yerevan. Given the parlous state of Armenian-Azerbaijani relations, the issue is very touchy and the sources are not very reliable. --Ghirla^-трёп- 19:44, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

It was me who removed the claim from the article. I'm lazy to do the research again, but I did find (I think) WP:RS (does this one count? [8]) to confirm that his father is an Armenian from Tbilisi; but nothing about the surname "Kalantari(y)an". Apparently, Karine Kalantarian is an Armenian journalist specialized for foreign relations ([9]); I don't know if someone confused the two or it's just a coincidence. Duja► 15:04, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I raised the issue in Russian Wikipedia, asking to investigate the situation. Nobody has been able to produce anything better than Lavrov's statement about his Armenian roots. The Kalantaryan connection was not substantiated as well. --Ghirla^-трёп- 16:40, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

June 29

Anyone know some good Welshisms?

I'm looking for as many Weshisms I can possibly collect. By Welshisms, I mean things the Welsh say in English (or combined with English) that would mark them as Welsh. As an example, "Top o' th' mornin'" would be considered an Irishism (whether or not the Irish ever use it, I've never heard one say it). Anyone know any of these for Welsh? Krys Tamar 02:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Look you, do you think I am so twp as to answer that question?... Clarityfiend 03:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

....boyo.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 06:46, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I thought "boyo" was a Hibernicism. —Angr 07:08, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

You could try the article on Welsh English, and I think boyo is Welsh. Although as with top of the morning I've never heard a Welshman say it. Cyta 07:36, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

A couple of things I've noticed the people in our Welsh head office say. "look see" instead of "look at this" and ending sentences with "isn't it". - X201 07:51, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

My wife, after moving to her southern Welsh village from England, would still be described by locals as being "from away" even after ten years' residence. This tickles me no end.

"Ye" (corresponding with Welsh "Ie"), meaning "yeah" or "yes". Seems like they say this all the time. "Oh, ye ye". The Jade Knight 02:11, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Quote

Can anybody translate this quote

You can praise me, disagree with me, quote me, disbelieve me, glorify or vilify me but the only thing you can't do is ignore me.

into:

Language	Translation
Spanish	Usted me puede alabar, no estar de acuerdo conmigo, citarme, no creerme, glorificarme o vilipendarme, pero lo único que no puede hacer es ignorarme. =)
French	Vous pouvez me louer, ne pas être de mon avis, me citer, ne pas me croire, me glorifier ou me dénigrer mais la seule chose que vous ne pouvez pas faire est de m'ignorer. (2) On peut me louer, ne pas être de mon avis, me citer, ne pas me croire, me glorifier ou me dénigrer mais la seule chose qu'on ne peut pas faire est de m'ignorer. (3)
German	Du kannst mich loben, mir widersprechen, mich zitieren, mir nicht glauben, mich preisen oder verteufeln, aber das einzige, was du nicht kannst, ist mich zu ignorieren.
Russian	Можете хвалить меня, не соглашаться со мной, цитировать меня, не верить мне, прославлять или поносить меня, но что вы не можете делать, так это не замечать меня.
Arabic
Farsi
Turkish
Urdu
Hindi
Tamil
Chinese (traditional)
Japanese
Korean
Filipino

Fill in what you can. I would appreciate it. Thank you! --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 05:25, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

I added a German translation. Many of these words could be translated differently (and at least "vilify" was new to me), though. I tried to keep it short and idiomatic. --Dapeteばか 13:12, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Russian translation added. --Ghirla^-трёп- 19:49, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

(2) (Direct) French translation added. First one is bad grammar. AldoSyrt 20:31, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Note that different translators here make different assumptions on whether the tone should be formal or informal. There is no hint in the original English sentence since English lacks the T-V distinction. In the translations above, the Spanish, French and Russian ones are formal, while the German one is informal. You might want to specify what the level of formality should be, as well as how many people you are addressing and what sex they are. — Kpalion^(talk) 20:35, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

You are right. A "familiar" French translation: Tu peux me louer, ne pas être de mon avis, me citer, ne pas me croire, me glorifier ou me dénigrer mais la seule chose que tu ne peux pas faire est de m'ignorer. AldoSyrt 20:45, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

If "you" doesn't mean the speaker specifically, another option in French is to use "on peut". It's translated by "one can" in English, but in French is used more often than in English. I'll add that as (3) above. --Anon, June 30, 2007, 01:07 (UTC).

I want it somewhat poetic, so the familar form is prefered on my part. Of course, I don't really care what's put in there as long as it's correct. --hello, i'm a member | talk to me! 21:41, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

If you want a formal German, just switch du kannst to Sie können in both instances. That works for both the formal singular and plural - yet another distinction unclear in the original. Informal plural would be ihr könnt. — Laura Scudder ☎ 22:00, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I made some corrections to the Spanish translation; cotizarme is one word, for example. Also, by reading the Spanish version, I feel that the English quote really loses some of its effect when it's translated, just so the person who posted it knows.--El aprendelenguas 21:40, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Shouldn't it be alabarme? And I'm not sure about no creerme... Corvus cornix

It should probably be descreerme. Mike Dillon 20:03, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Also, no estar de acuerdo conmigo could be disentir conmigo. Mike Dillon 20:06, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

"Cotizar" is for markets (stock, foreign exchange, etc). To "quote somebody" is citar. Also, "la única cosa" sounds too long and is avoidable; "lo único" is better. --RiseRover|^talk 08:45, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Chinese? Rock inscription

Found this rock in a creek bed of an area which used to be panned for gold. This was an era when lots of Chinese migrated to Australia for the gold rush. Could someone please translate it?

http://www.flickr.com/photos/52507572@N00/657536306/

Thanks. --liquidGhoul 06:15, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

The character looks contain 车, so maybe a rather cursive 军 (?). Cheers.--K.C. Tang 08:02, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

That can be 金, of course, given the context.--K.C. Tang 01:33, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for those mate, it doesn't cease to amaze me what help you can get on wiki. I personally think, out of those choices, that it looks most like "cart", the "army" one just has too many horizontal lines. Is there any symbol like 车, but with a ^ at the top instead of the horizontal line? Thanks --liquidGhoul 06:23, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Hmm, are you sure it's made intentionally? It doesn't look like 车 to me. It could be that someone was crudely trying to write the simplified character character, but that person would have to have learned it after 1956, when they were introduced in the PRC - long after the Australian gold rushes. Also, while the wedge shape of the strokes may give them a more Chinese appearance, the actual character isn't really supposed to have any tapering strokes (except for the upper half of the "L"-shaped stroke in the middle - but that should taper the other way!) For caoshu, which has been around much longer, and from which the simplified character is derived, it has much too many strokes:

• the aforememtioned ^ at the top
• the double stroke at the bottom
• the fact that the "L"-shaped stroke is done in two intersecting strokes
• the top horizontal stroke reaching too far left, and not extending to the right
• random strokes to the right and at the lower edge

In conclusion, it rather reminds me of some natural shapes that look remarkably like letters - see also nature's alphabet. — Sebastian 21:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Honestly, it doesn't look like any Chinese character known to me. The problem is I can't figure out the flow of the strokes, and the most important thing in deciphering a cursive character is figure out how the strokes run. No matter how cursive a character is written, there is logic behind the flow of the strokes. But I can't see the logic in this one. So I'm not really sure it's a Chinese character. Sorry for not being able to help you. Cheers.--K.C. Tang 01:12, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

It looks to me like this character (zhongwen.com), meaning 'cow', with some extra lines added. Maybe a improvised character for a cow under a roof? --The Photon 05:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Something detoriating

Detoriate (as in "detoriating conditions") is a word I've used often and one I'm sure to have heard being used often. So what's the right spelling of the word? Merci beaucoup.--202.164.142.82 18:30, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

Deteriorate. -FisherQueen (Talk) 18:33, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

grammar

should i say:this will be use OR this will be used?

This will be used. — Kpalion^(talk)

In this sentence 'used' is a past participle, and the phrase 'be used' is an infinitive marking the passive voice. Then 'will + infinitive' marks the future tense. If thaat makes any sense to you, it might help. — Gareth Hughes 19:04, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

7-0 or seven-o: a Secret Service code?

I'm subtitling a film. After an assasination, a Secret Service agent hold a man down and yells: "This guy's 7-0!" Does anyone know what that refers to? 84.48.169.39 23:44, 29 June 2007 (UTC)

It could be a fictional code inspired by 10-codes. Or a real-life one, of course. --Anonymous, June 30, 2007, 01:13 (UTC).

10-0 is 10-code for dead; 10 and 7 do sound similar so it could be that the agent is actually saying "This guy's 10-0" ("This guy's dead"). Laïka 23:29, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

June 30

Learning Received Pronunciation

Does anyone know of any good web sites for learning how to speak English with good Received Pronunciation? Alternatively, are there any materials that would be readily found in an American library? I'm trying to pick up a proper British dialect, but don't really know where to start (apart from simply watching British television). The Jade Knight 02:07, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

You can stream British Radio (www.bbc.co.uk) via the internet, and Radio 4 is a wonderful source of British accents. It's easier to keep it on as a subliminal drip than TV, too.SaundersW 08:52, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Mind providing a link to Radio 4? The Jade Knight 02:14, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Here:[10] Click the link in the top right hand corner to listen live (ish) (There is a delay of a few seconds so the time signals are annoyingly wrong.)SaundersW 10:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Birds of the Anatomy

Why are so many names and nicknames for types of birds (boobies, hooters, tits, cocks, etc.) also slang terms for parts of the human anatomy? --Carnildo 05:04, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

A great etymology site is...http://www.etymonline.com There you can put in words and it will explain the word's history. Tit seems to be something to with 'small' and so the birds are literally just named after a description of size (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=tit&searchmode=none), hooters doesn't feature but I would venture a guess that 'hooters' are named after their voice...some owls at least 'hoot'. Not sure how it branched off to me breasts but I guess once a series of bird-based versions for breast occur people will start to 'add' new ones themselves, if they become popular they then become widespread. Cock seem to be 'to stand up' and since cock/hen is a very popular male/female term for birds (peacock/peahen) I guess they are just both meaning the same thing. I think cow/bull are used a lot for female/male in mammals too incidently. Boobies comes as (http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=boobies&searchmode=none). Quite an interesting site. Not sure of the links to bird-names though. ny156uk 10:36, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Provincial tenses

Hello. I am writing something about Canadian provinces, and there are some situations were I am unsure of what verb tense to use. Most times it's obivious to use the singular "Ontario is ...," "Prince Edward Island has ...," etc. But I'm uncertain about two cases. Regarding Newfoundland and Labrador, is the singular correct, as in "Newfoundland and Labrador is Canada's newest province."? And what of the Northwest Territories? Years ago, when NWT was divided into several districts, it made sense to use the plural, as in "The Northwest Territories are north of the 60th parallel." But now that there are no divisions in NWT, should it be singular or plural? ("The Northwest Territories is/are between Yukon and Nunavut.") Thank you. — Michael J 19:17, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I'd use the singular (even as a big fan of the British group plural); otherwise in order to make the syntax consistent, you'd have to use "Newfoundland and Labrador are Canada's newest provinces.", which would be very confusing and imply that Newfoundland and Labrador are two separate territories. Laïka 22:51, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Taking a look at Northwest Territories, it seems that the sigular is preferred. Also, note that "the" is not used frequently. Just as one wouldn't say, "*The Ontario is...." This makes the singular sound better, at least to my ear. Example: "As a territory, Northwest Territories has fewer rights than the provinces do." I wonder if Canada has any official guidelines on the matter. — gogobera (talk) 01:42, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

"The" is not used as commonly with the Yukon as it used to be when I learned to say "the Yukon", but it is with the Northwest Territories. I just had a look at the Government of the Northwest Territories web site (as you might guess, gov.nt.ca), and that's what they call it -- and yes, they use "the Northwest Territories" as a singular.

As for "Newfoundland and Labrador", just keep in mind the English rule that an expression like that is singular if it denotes one thing. "Good think it's a long weekend -- some rest and recreation is what I need right now." --Anonymous, July 2, 2007, 05:54 (UTC).

"Good think"? Corvus cornix 16:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Good think, bad type. :-) --Anon, July 3, 03:57 (UTC).

Though it would sound delightful to say "Some R&R are what I need." Tesseran 01:29, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Ancient Greek question

I've read that in Greece and in the Eastern Orthodox Church, they tend to speak Ancient Greek using Modern Greek pronunciation. This approach appeals to me for a number of reasons. The one thing that concerns me is the merger of ημεις and υμεις, which seems like a crucial distinction. Does this mean that it is impossible (or impractical) to use modern pronunciation-Ancient Greek as a conversational language? --Lazar Taxon 20:38, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

I think New Testament Greek is used as a liturgical language, not really a conversational language. The closest thing to ancient Greek that was sometimes used in a conversational context in modern times was some form of Katharevousa, which was not the same as ancient Greek. In any case, nominative subject pronouns are often expressed by verb endings... AnonMoos 06:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Cigarette slang

While flicking through news channels, I chanced upon an interview by the (American) station CNN with a member of airport security staff following the 2007 Glasgow International Airport attack. One line in particular stood out when the man claimed that he had been outside at the time "having a fag" - ie; a cigarette. However, I wondered how this would go down in the US; are people there aware of the British meaning of the term, or would they have thought the man was using homophobic abuse on air? Does the US have similar slang terms for cigarettes? Laïka 22:47, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

As a citizen of the US, I understand that fag in Britain means "cigarette." In fact, most Americans (I believe) are aware of the British meaning and would understand. In any event, it wouldn't make any sense that the man would say that on the news if he meant "homosexual," and any unaware American would immediately accept the idea of there being a second meaning. In the US, I've heard cig as slang for cigarette. You may be able to find more terms at Wikisaurus.--El aprendelenguas 23:22, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

Fag is very common slang for cigarette in Britain, Australia and NZ, and I'm sure in other places as well. It's also become accepted (if not always acceptable) slang for a male homosexual, which makes it slightly ambiguous these days when one says "I'm just going outside for a fag". -- JackofOz 23:46, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

OTOH, and to answer the original question which wasn't really addressed, no, most people in the U.S. do not recognize this use of the word "fag"; most would probably associate it with "queer" or another epithet for homosexual. +ILike2BeAnonymous 23:50, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

By the way, just by way of spicing up the topic a little, y'all are aware, aren't you, that the fancy-schmancy word for bassoon is "faggot", literally "bundle of sticks" (as in the sense of a "flaming faggot" or piece of firewood). So it's all nicely tied together ... +ILike2BeAnonymous 23:54, 30 June 2007 (UTC)

That's a rather fascist comment. -- JackofOz 01:40, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I have lived in California all my life and have seldom ever left it. However, I certainly know that "fag" is slang for cigarette, but that is because I have always read a lot of novels--including many by British authors. I think that any well-read American would know this. --Eriastrum 16:27, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, but consider that last statement of yours, which contains a contradiction in terms. +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It's at least well enough known in the states that a FOX show could make fun of it (Notapusy episode of Arrested Development). I've certainly known that fag could mean cigarette in Britain for a while, but probably from some British comedy show. — Laura Scudder ☎ 21:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Would you know what someone meant if they said "can I bum a fag" :) 86.132.231.97

Yes, but I would need to know what country I was in at the time. (If this is Tuesday, it must be . . .) Bielle

July 1

Semantics

I guess that this is a question of semantics, so I will post it here. Assume that a woman and a man have sex (that is not in dispute) and the woman subsequently alleges a rape. The case goes to court. Either one of the following two things happens: (a) the man/defendant either pleads guilty to, or is convicted of, a lesser crime than rape (say, a "battery"); or (b) the man/defendant is fully acquitted. Under either scenario (a) or (b), in legal and technical terms, a "rape" never occurred. Under Scenario A, a "battery" occurred, and under Scenario B, no crime occurred at all. So, in essence, semantically, there was no rape. Therefore, we cannot properly call the man a "rapist." At this point, then, is it appropriate to refer to the woman as a rape victim? Or even as a victim at all, in Scenario B? Obviously, this is just an issue of semantics -- but I am curious about it.

On a related note: Let's assume that Andrea Yates is found not guilty by reason of insanity for the deaths of her children. Semantically, then, there was no "murder" -- and Andrea Yates cannot properly be called a "murderer." But, can we still properly call the children "murder victims" or even claim that they were "murdered"? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 00:34, 1 July 2007 (UTC))

A person can be found not guilty of a charge because of a technical legal reason, but that doesn't alter the fact that they did whatever they did. This exposes the difference between the legal meaning of a term and the common meaning. O J Simpson is not, technically, a murderer because he was acquitted of that criminal charge. But he was found responsible for his wife's death in a separate civil legal proceeding. His wife, by any common understanding of the term, was murdered and is therefore a murder victim. Even if O J had not been found civilly liable, someone murdered his wife. -- JackofOz 01:47, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I am not sure that you followed my point. The OJ example (your final sentence above) is not a good example, because it presumes that there is someone out there (as yet unidentified) who committed the murder and is therefore a murderer. In other words, a murder was committed; it was committed by a murderer; and we simply do not (as of yet) know who that murderer was. My two examples above (the known "man" in the rape case and Andrea Yates) are different -- because we know and have identified the individual responsible for the action. But, we have not identified the crime as a murder (or a rape). In other words, the law has stated that the man did not commit a rape. The law has stated that Andrea Yates did not commit a murder. So, the man cannot semantically be referred to as a rapist, and Yates cannot semantically be referred to as a murderer. Nonetheless, can the woman be referred to as a rape victim, when no rape occurred? And can Yates' children be referred to as murder victims when no murder occurred? Can we even say that the Yates children were "murdered" when we know unequivocally (legally / semantically) that there was no murder at all? (JosephASpadaro 05:10, 1 July 2007 (UTC))

Andrea Yates's conviction was overturned on the basis that she was not guilty by reason of insanity. To quote from our article on this matter, "This defense is based on the principle that guilt is determined by examining if the defendant was capable of distinguishing right and wrong". That is, nobody doubts that Yates killed her children unlawfully, but because she was considered not to be capable of distinguishing right from wrong, she could not be held legally culpable for her actions. What happened to the children did not retrospectively change as a result of their mother's conviction being overturned. They were murdered then and they remain murdered now. IANAL, but I think the law is concerned about whether or not a defendant is guilty of the crime or not, not whether the crime took place. The very fact that a person was charged with the murder - whatever the outcome of that prosecution - is based on the fact that a murder occurred. Thus, her children could, imo, correctly be described as "murder victims" regardless of the fact that the perpetrator has been found not guilty of murder. -- JackofOz 05:32, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

JackofOz, your response is mixing and mingling, without discrimination, the legal word murder and the common non-legal word murder. Murder is not equal to "causing the death of another person." In order for a crime to rise to the level of murder, the actor (let's say, Andrea Yates) (a) has to know right from wrong; (b) has to be sane (i.e., not insane); and (c) has to intentionally cause the death of another human being. These three requirements were not met in the Yates case and, thus, no murder occurred. If no murder occurred, there can be no victims of the murder that never occurred. Perhaps the rape case is easier to think about. After the man is acquitted (or found guilty of battery and not guilty of rape), would you claim that the woman should semantically be referred to as a rape victim? Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 06:03, 1 July 2007 (UTC))

The reason for mixing up legal and non-legal words is that legal realities have little bearing on how a a real person talks about something. If she's your friend and says she was raped, then you're not exactly going to tell her, "stop calling yourself a 'rape victim', the court found that no rape occurred." How we talk about an event has more to do with how we perceive it than what has been proven in court. In other words, there is no one answer to your question. — Laura Scudder ☎ 21:39, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree with what you say. However, my question is asking about what the correct answer would be semantically (i.e., strictly regarding proper word usage). If your friend is the rape victim, that involves emotions - perhaps sympathy, heightened credibility of your friend's version of events, anger at the court and justice system for its "faulty" ruling, etc. Your second example, how we perceive things, also involves aspects other than logic and semantics. So, all that aside, I am only asking about the semantics and, strictly speaking, proper wording in such cases. Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 00:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC))

The "proper wording" will, in all cases, be dependent upon the context. That is what almost all of the respondents are saying. You apppear to be looking for a single answer that will fit all cases. For better or for worse, English seldom operates that way. "Murder" has more than one definition; "rape" has more than one definition. The only "correct answer . . . semantically" is the one that recognizes the context. What works in the courtroom may also work in the newspaper, but may fail utterly in the living room. Bielle 02:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The key point, I think, is that principles of law may call for something to be deemed true even if it is not in fact true. In particular, this is how the presumption of innocence works. I'll take Canada as an example since I have an online Criminal Code at hand.

Section 6 mandates the presumption of innocence: "Where an enactment creates an offence and authorizes a punishment to be imposed in respect of that offence... a person shall be deemed not to be guilty of the offence until he is convicted or discharged under section 730 of the offence..."

Section 449 is typical of many that declare something to be an offense: "Every one who makes or begins to make counterfeit money is guilty of an indictable offence and liable to imprisonment for a term not exceeding fourteen years."

So if you make counterfeit money, but you aren't convicted of the crime, then section 449 says in effect that you are a counterfeiter, but section 6 says that nevertheless you are deemed not to be one -- as far as the law is concerned.

Similarly with the original example. "Semantically, no rape has occurred" should read "Legally, no rape has occurred", or in other words, "It is deemed that no rape has occurred." If you know or believe that there was in fact a rape and you refer to the victim as a rape victim, you might be committing libel or slander, because legally there was no rape. But if it's clear that you're expressing your opinion that there was a rape, then "rape" is the word for it. In short, as is so often the case, what's "appropriate" depends on context.

--Anonymous, July 2, 2007, 06:16 (UTC).

Is that true, though? If a person is found not guilty of a crime, for whatever reason, that does not necessarily amount to the court deeming that no crime occurred. All the court is saying in the Andrea Yates case is that, because of her diminished mental condition, she cannot be held responsible for the act and therefore she will not be treated as a murderer but as a person needing medical/psychiatric treatment. But the act still occurred; she still did it; and the children were still murdered. -- JackofOz 07:24, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

JackofOz - If a person is found not guilty of a crime, that does not necessarily mean that no crime occurred. Correct. However, it could mean that. It could also mean that a crime did occur, and that this particular person did not commit it. Or, it could also mean: a crime occurred; this person did commit that crime; but the prosecution (State) was not able to offer sufficient proof that this person committed that crime. In the Yates case, the verdict clearly stated that Yates did not commit a murder. She committed a killing, she committed a homicide, but she did not commit a murder. I guess that we can say, the children were victims of a killing, victims of a homicide -- but not victims of a murder (since there was no murder). In any event, this is all semantic, of course, as the original post asserted. Context, yes, is important. When an alleged rapist is found "not guilty" and absolved of the rape crime ... I am sure that he would not call the victim a rape victim. But, I am sure that the woman would call herself a rape victim, despite the court ruling. And I guess what I am asking is -- emotions aside and semantically speaking -- can she really call herself a rape victim? Can the Yates children be called murder victims? Query - Can the Duke lacrosse victim call herself a rape victim, just because she sincerely believes that she was raped (when, in fact, she was not)? But, I hear and I "get" what everyone is saying in this thread. Ultimately, I think, people just believe (and defend) what they want to believe. Thanks. (JosephASpadaro 15:44, 2 July 2007 (UTC))

I don't know whethere any specific rape occurred or not, unless I am a person involved, and perhaps not even then. I have to assume if you know "in fact, she was not" a rape victim, as you allege above, you may be someone involved and perhaps ought to step back on a WP:COI basis. If you are saying that you know the facts because of some legal verdict, then an NPOV might suggest your knowledge is that a specific legal finding exists. I assume that finding is verifiable and that the continuing claims of the involved parties, if any, are also verifiable. We don't seem to fuss much about what is true. I also think that the Ref Desk is not the proper venue for a content dispute, however artfully inserted into an question about semantics. Bielle 18:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Your response above is unfair and does not assume good faith. I thought it was (very) common knowledge, per the media and official "proclamations" from the State of North Carolina, that no rape occurred. This is indeed an appropriate forum for my original semantics question. The Duke rape case was introduced, as an afterthought (way down the thread in line 735), to make / clarify a point. Your comment that I have posted a content dispute artfully inserted into a question about semantics, as I said, is unfair and does not assume good faith. I would love to know where that idea entered your brain? I have conspired against all of Wikipedia and the entire world to debate the Duke lacrosse rape victim's claim by cleverly inserting it into a Language Help Desk appropriate question about semantics? If that is what you think and how you think ... then clearly that is your issue, not mine. As they say, "it takes a thief ..." (JosephASpadaro 19:02, 2 July 2007 (UTC))

It is difficult to read the paragraph upon paragraph above and continue to "assume good faith" in the face of the OP's unwillingness to accept what four editors have said, all but one more than once, that the context is what determines the correct language. It would appear, then, that the OP will contine to rephrase the question until someone answers it "correctly" to meet the OP's needs or assumptions. To bring in more legal language, "asked and answered" many times, is the "correct" phrase for the process.

As for the "facts" of the case, until I ran a Wikipedia check before my previous comment, I had never heard of the case, and didn't even know that "Duke" was a university. (Not everyone on Wiki is an American, and this was not a case to interest the rest of the world.) As a number of others have pointed out in this thread, we can verify what the State of North Carolina and its judiciary has declared, but only the participants "know" what happened. My ignorance of local American criminal trials is not an excuse for my having failed to check for the OP in the history of the article and its debates. I apologize and declare that I found no evidence that JosephASpadaro has been involved in the article or on its talk page, and I was wrong to suggest that he was so involved. On everything else, my previous comments stand. Bielle 22:42, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Well, then, Queen Bielle. I was not aware that you ruled all of Wikipedia. Clearly, you and I have different notions of how a conversation goes. You think: ask a question, get a response, end of story. Period. That is most certainly not how I think. My thinking is more along the lines of a Socratic method ... to keep probing and to "test" the responses to see if that is truly what the respondent intended to state. Is that what he really means to say? Sometimes, a statement (response) needs to be questioned and scrutinized, it needs to be tested and challenged. Not all statements must be taken at face value, simply because the statement was merely made. And, sometimes, this process involves making a point, offering a counterpoint, and going back and forth a bit, etc. Certainly (at least in my opinion), that is a more appropriate process of asking questions, receiving answers, and -- ultimately -- becoming enlightened about the topic at hand. I was not aware that your way was right and my way was wrong, according to Wikipedia rules. You truly need to look up what "assume good faith" even means. Your first sentence in your above post says that I am "unwilling to accept what four editors said." Who said that I was unwilling to accept what they said? You? I accepted it, tested it, countered it, and -- actually -- in the end, agreed with it (i.e., was convinced of their position). Why is my method wrong and yours right? Do tell. Just because your method of understanding / comprehending takes one step ... and mine takes perhaps 4 or 5 steps? That makes your method right? and mine wrong? Look up "tolerance" for other views, by the way. Also, why does my method require that you violate the assumption of good faith? There are many ways to skin a cat, my freind. If your method is to simply accept what anyone tells you, and not test it, and leave it at that -- you will not only be led down the wrong path (in the worst case) ... but you will also not come to embrace / understand / accept the opposing viewpoint presented (in the best case). No, I don't just ask a question, blindly accept an answer, and trust that that answer is 100% correct -- just because some one says so. In my opinion, your method (just accept whatever people say and shut up about it, don't question it) is hardly an enlightened approach to thinking / questioning / exploring unfamiliar territory. And you were an educator for 35 years?!?! Lord help us. Please, Lord. (JosephASpadaro 23:03, 2 July 2007 (UTC))

Your prayers were heard, retroactively; I am long retired. Education is about process. I may have been working under an illusion, but I thought that the Ref Desk was about information, which is but a very small part of what constitutes education. (Wikiversity, I am told, is about education.) In other words, the Ref Desk can supply you with leads to, or information about, Socrates, but it is not set up to support the Socratic method, if for no other reason than the length of the answers and the length of the process. Your views about "my method", "enlightened" or otherwise, are attached to what I have to say about information and the Ref Desk, in which case you "have reason" as the French would say, to believe what you believe. However, to decide, without evidence, that I would apply the same criteria to education, is uncalled for and, in a word, uncivil.

It is also my view that none of this exchange belongs on the Ref Desk, and for that, I apologise to everyone. Bielle 23:43, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Yes, exactly. So, this all goes back to my prior post. You see the Reference Desk as Step 1 = ask a question; Step 2 = receive (and simply accept at face value) an answer; Step 3 = "OK, we're all done here, now please leave." Life (and learning) is not so black and white. I obviously see the process of asking for information and receiving/processing that information much differently than you do. I guarantee you, you can look through many, many, many of these Help Desk entries. Vary rarely will an entry be in the form of one question stated; one answer presented; end of entry. Typically, one would expect a back and forth exchange. And I am not sure why that offends you. And why you do not see that as properly belonging in a Help Desk forum. But, ultimately, that is your issue -- not mine. Nonetheless, we can agree to disagree. I will obtain my information (i.e., ask my questions) in the way that helps me to understand and process the answers. And you can do so in your own way. And, perhaps, never the twain shall meet. And that's fine. But, please assume good faith when other learners (asking questions) learn in a way that is different than what you perceive as the correct / appropriate / proper way to learn (or ask questions). That is the height of intolerance. And, also, please stop accusing me of asking improper questions on the Help Desk, because my dialogue does not conform to your requirements for the correct way to ask questions and process answers. I learn in my own way -- not in your way. As an educator, I would expect that you of all people would appreciate (and tolerate) this concept. Thanks. By the way, I have great respect for teachers and I am sure -- in your 35 years -- that you positively impacted scores of students. And that is a good thing.  :) Thank you. (JosephASpadaro 04:31, 3 July 2007 (UTC))

English- Sentence Pattern

On his return, Ken found his suitcase untouched.

Could someone give me the exact sentence pattern (i.e., S+V+O and so on) for the above sentence ?

Thanks! -- 05:59, 1 July 2007 User:Meena 22

I believe the sentence would be analyzed as such: "On his return, Ken found [that] his suitcase [was] untouched."

Thus, Subject (Ken) + Verb (found) + Direct Object (that his suitcase was untouched)

"On his return" is a prepositional phrase, acting as an adverb, answering the question "when", to modify the verb "found"

The direct object (that his suitcase was untouched) is the direct object of the verb "found" (i.e., what did Ken find?)

The direct object is comprised of the clause "his suitcase was untouched" which is, respectively, adjective/noun/verb/adjective (Subject + Verb)

(JosephASpadaro 06:16, 1 July 2007 (UTC))

See also Small clause... AnonMoos 06:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Untouched is used as a predicate adjective.--El aprendelenguas 18:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

hang 10

this guy that i really like and might even love told me to do that and i have no idia what it means. somebody please help me

Well it could me "wait ten minutes" (as in hang around for 10 minutes). It could be some new version of 'slapping 5' like a different type of high 5. Otherwise not sure. ny156uk 09:16, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

I understood it to mean having your ten toes hanging off the edge of a surfboard. On the other hand, the original meaning of a phrase is not what you want here, but what your beloved means by it. The only way to find that out may be to ask him.SaundersW 10:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

It's surfer slang. See wikt:hang ten. Through extension, it may mean something along the lines of "have a blast!" (ie, have a great time), or something along those lines. What was the context? The Jade Knight 11:35, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Indeed, your gentleman friend has invited you to accompany him in some recreational surfboarding. Either that or his bed is a little too short to fully accommodate you.--Mrs Wibble-Wobble 11:38, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

German translation

Can I get a literal translation please.

Der Geburtstag des Alpinismus

Thank you. --Doug ^talk 12:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

'The birthday of alpinism' (the birth of alpinism would probably be better, but less literal), which, according to mountaineering, is sometimes used to refer to April 26, 1336. Algebraist 12:36, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you, that helps -- just by chance are you real familiar with this?--Doug ^talk 13:13, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

No, I don't even speak German, but I can puzzle out a few words. Algebraist 14:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, also that wording looks correct to me (and I also do not know German). I believe "geburtstag" means birthday, which I have stumbled across in genealogy research. "Alpinismus" looks a lot like the English "alpinism". Thanks again.--Doug ^talk 16:17, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

You believe correctly (I can remember a few things from GCSE). For more obscure words like alpinismus (ismus is the german form of ism, I believe) the German wikipedia can be useful, especially the interwiki links to english. Algebraist 16:28, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you or someone that knows German well can translate this, that is also related to the "birhtday of alpinism":

Am 26. April 1336 erreichte Francesco Petrarca aus Neugier, freiwillig und "lediglich aus Verlangen" zusammen mit seinem Bruder und zwei weiteren Begleitern den Gipfel des Mont Ventoux, des "windigen Berges". Weil er in dieser Wanderung aber auch Naturerlebnis, Zufriedenheit und "Erregungen des Herzens" empfand, wird er als "Vater der Bergsteiger" bezeichnet und der 26. April 1336 als "Geburtsstunde des Alpinismus".

Thanking you ahead of time for translating this above. Closest I can get is it says something about Petrarch being the "father of alpinism" in addition to something about the related "birthday of alpinism" being April 26, 1336; because of the ascent and climbing of Mont Ventoux. Then apparently it was considered tabu to climb any mountain (for religious reasons).--Doug ^talk 16:52, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

On 26 April 1336, Francesco Petrarch reached the peak of Mont Ventoux, the "Windy Mountain", out of curiosity, voluntarily, and "just from desire", together with his brother and two other companions. But because he also experienced nature, contentment, and "emotional excitement" in this excursion, he is called the "father of mountain climbers", and 26 April 1336 is called the "moment mountaineering was born". —Angr 19:02, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

That's great - thanks much!!--Doug ^talk 20:22, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

You're welcome. If I had been translating this for an actual article, though, I probably would having written "because it was there" rather than "just from desire", to allude to George Mallory's explanation of why he wanted to climb Mount Everest. —Angr 20:29, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

As a matter of fact, I recently did write such an article on "Birthday of alpinism" - which was ultimately deleted because apparently it is not a noteworthy enough event.--Doug ^talk 21:15, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Strangely - the result of the deletion debate was "no consensus" so it should not have been deleted/redirected. DuncanHill 22:04, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

See what I mean. Even though their own reference source (# 2 footnote) says "Birthday of alpinism" in German they will not allow that to be said in English so that those that read English know that it is really saying "birthday of alpinism." Anything with the wording "Birthday of Alpinism" or "birth of alpinism" being April 26, 1336, they will not allow - even though their very own reference sources say that. Also you can not say, "the moment mountaineering was born" or "represents a threshold between the Middle Ages and modern times" - even though the German article on the identical subject says this (and has said this for years). I know, because I tried to edit that into the History section of our English version on Mont Ventoux today (however it was deleted also). If you will notice at the bottom is the same reference they are using and in this mechanical "translation" it says The birthday of the alpine, which really means The birthday of alpinism. The wording of "Birthday of alpinism" or "birth of alpinism" or "the moment mountaineering was born" they will not allow in English, but their very references says this - just in German. You try putting in this wording and see what happens.--Doug ^talk 00:23, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Please don't use the reference desk as a way to get people to participate in editing disputes. --Akhilleus (talk) 02:10, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Russian paragraph

Could someone please help me with the translation of this Russian paragraph?

Самолёт должен был приземлиться. Но для этого нужно было, чтобы кончился бензин. Если останется бензин, может быть взрыв. Поэтому самолёт долго летал над Ленинградом.

I've been trying to translate this for an hour now, but my translations aren't making much sense. Thank you. --Húsönd 15:43, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

You might want to check it with someone who speaks Russian better than I do, but here's my translation:

The plane was supposed to land. But for this, it was necessary that it runs out of fuel. If there was fuel left, it could lead to an explosion. This is why the plane was flying over Leningrad for a long time.

— Kpalion^(talk) 16:11, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks, now I see what I was getting wrong. Regards, Húsönd 18:21, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Just a tiny nitpick: to be grammatical in English, the sentence should read "it was necessary that it run out of fuel". +ILike2BeAnonymous 20:12, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Just a tiny amendment to that nitpick: Usage varies across dialects of English. American English is more likely to use the subjunctive there, "It was necessary that it run out of fuel", while in British English the indicative is acceptable as well: "It was necessary that it runs out of fuel". The issue can be avoided by rewriting it as "It was necessary for it to run out of fuel". —Angr 20:24, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

Is it by any chance from an article about an airplane landing on the Neva River? --Reuben 03:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Names of letters in other languages

Hi all. In English the Greek A is spelled "alpha" and the Spanish X is spelled "equis".

1. Are letter "names" ever used in the native languages? (Only pipe fittings in English that I can think of (ELL, TEE) but Dos Equis for the cervesa (or is that just for nosotros gringos?).
2. Are English (Latin) letters given names in other languages/countries (Russia/China/Japan)?

Thanks, Saintrain 21:44, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

In Jèrriais, the word for alphabet is a b c, but the letters are not written out. In Romanian, letters are generally just pronounced as they are sounded (consonsants are given a schwa). Generally, "names" for letters are simply traditional ways of remembering how to pronounce them. In English, some of these have deviated from how these letters are pronounced. They are not meant to be written out, generally—when learning a new alphabet, they will tell you how the letters are pronounced, but very rarely will they write out the letters' "names". The Jade Knight 22:51, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

In French, "y" is called "ygrec" ("Greek Y"). Adam Bishop 23:53, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

In Portuguese, the letter W is called dáblio, which is a transliteration of the English name, double-u. Y is ípsolon. X is called xis, which sounds like cheese, so people often write x-burgers. [11] A.Z. 00:37, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

By the way, that reference above says that the name of the letter sounds like sheesh, but this is just the accent from Rio de Janeiro. In São Paulo, it would sound more like cheese, but without the initial T sound. A.Z. 01:00, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

By the way, in Portugal "x" pronounces as sheesh, but "cheese" is pronounced as in English (thus, nobody writes "x-burger" in Portugal). Another interesting name of a letter in Portuguese is "h" (agá). Wonder where that came from.--Húsönd 01:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

It looks like it's probably cognate with the Spanish and French names hache ([ˈa.tʃe]) and ache ([ˈaʃ]), respectively. There is some information in our article about "H", cf. H#Pronunciation. Mike Dillon 01:57, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Do people from Rio de Janeiro pronounce it the same as the Portuguese because of the royal family exile in that city? A.Z. 02:13, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Slight correction—In French y is called "i grec": "Greek i" (seeing as the written form was borrowed from the Greek letter upsilon). The Jade Knight 03:11, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I belive that, in Spanish, I have seen "Y" as "i griega" (Greek i), "Ye" and "Upsilon". Am I misremembering things? Corvus cornix 16:14, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

If anyone can get a hold of it, an article called The Letter Names of the Latin Alphabet looks like it would be interesting. Mike Dillon 01:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

History of the Latin alphabet looks interesting too. Mike Dillon 02:01, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

I don't know about colloquial or spoken Russian, but Russian-speaking mathematicians have to learn the names of the Latin letters (just as English-speakers have to learn to recognize and pronounce theta and pi). The equation "a + b = c" is read "a плюс b равно c", which sounds like "ah plyoos beh rahvno tseh".

There are also three letters in Russian whose names describe them: Й, Ь, and Ъ, whose names respectively are и краткое, ee kratkoyeh, "short I"; мягкий знак, myakhkiy znak, "soft sign"; and твёрдый знак, tvyordyy znak, "hard sign". (These are the capital forms, for readability.) The former is a modification of the letter И, and the latter two are signs that change the sound of the proceeding letter, making it "softer" or "harder". [P.S. These are not transliterations, but ad hoc transcriptions, before anybody jumps on me. =)] Tesseran 02:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The English version of Scrabble accepts as valid words all of the spelled-out names of the 26 letters of the English alphabet, with the possible exception of the spelling of W which may be a hyphenated word. I have no idea about other language versions of the game. -- JackofOz 07:11, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Here are two sites with the Japanese pronunciation of the alphabet names:
* http://www.kodomo-pc.com/manabuo/manabun03h0103.html
* http://www.nec-eng.com/pro/document/word/about.html
Of the two, first has the "American" names and in parentheses "English" names if different.
The second one has both Latin and Greek letter names. As a note, just as one would say "the 'f' word" in English, the Japanese will call someone a "h", which stands for pervert (変態, へんたい, hentai). CJLippert 02:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Oh, in Rōmaji, they are: Ē (Ei), Bī, Shī (Sī), Dī, Ī, Efu, Jī, Etchi, Ai, Jē (Jei), Kē (Kei), Eru, Emu, Enu, Ō (Ou), Pī, Kyū, Āru, Esu, Tī, Yū, Bui (Vui, Vi), Daburyū, Ekkusu (Ekusu), Wai, Zetto (Zī) for the Latin letter names and for the Greek: Arufa, Bēta, Ganma, Deruta, Ipushiron, Jīta, Īta, Shīta, Iota, Kappa, Lamuda, Myū, Nyū, Kusai, Omikuron, Pai, Rō, Shiguma, Tau, Upushiron, Fai, Kai, Pusai, Omega. The Latin names are from the second page with the names in parentheses from the first page, and the Greek names are from the second page. CJLippert 02:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

July 2

Volume of a Human Being

Anyone know what the average volume of an adult human male would be? I know we have many variances in our physiologies, so I'm looking for an estimate using "average" healthy stats. Krys Tamar 00:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

It depends. I can be pretty loud. ;-) —Bkell (talk) 02:00, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps you meant to post this on the Science reference desk?

Anyway, this is easy. People have practically the same density as water -- that's why they just barely float in water, and sometimes don't. So just look for statistics on weight, change the kilograms to liters, and you'll be close enough. --Anonymous, July 2, 2007, 06:24 kg :-) (UTC).

If anonymous' clever method isn't good enough, you could submerge Average Man in a tub, mark the water level, remove him, and then measure how much water it takes to bring the water back up to that level. That's his volume. --TotoBaggins 19:59, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

When I saw this, I thought that Krys Tamar was referring to the vocal volume of a male human. That would make a bit more sense on the Language Desk, though the Science desk might still be better. --Falconus 02:15, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Ask Aristotle. :) DirkvdM 12:40, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

That was Archimedes. —Bkell (talk) 00:13, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Ouch. Well, they were both Greeks and their names have 4 syllables and start with 'Ar'. But still, ouch. DirkvdM 06:54, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

words that end in certain letters

I am very interested to know if there is any website where I can get list of words ending in certain letters, like -gry, -uous, or -uity. thank you in advance.

Rhyming dictionary has a couple of possible links. DuncanHill 14:53, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Also, if you are using Linux or perhaps MacOS, you could do searches like the ones below. --TotoBaggins 19:56, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

cd /usr/share/dict 
grep 'gry$' words
grep 'uous$' words
grep 'uity$' words

You might also want to read our article -gry, discussing "the -gry puzzle." --LarryMac | Talk 14:26, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Pronunciation of Popol-Vuh

How is Popol-Vuh pronounced?

Popol Vuh is in K'iche' language. In modern orthography it is 'Popol Wuj'. It is IPA: [[Help:IPA|[popol wuχ]]]. — Gareth Hughes 20:25, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Liftboy?

Is the word "liftboy" used in English? If no, how do you call a person professionally operating an elevator (in a hotel etc.)? --Thick Peter 17:22, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Not in American English (of course, we don't use "lift" either, but instead the bigger mouthful of "elevator"). We call them "elevator operators", or perhaps "elevator boys" if they're young and male. +ILike2BeAnonymous 17:32, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

There are not many such, whatever one might call them. In Canada, and most of the U.S. where I have been, almost all elevators are automatic (hotels, office buildings, department stores, hospitals) operated by the user by way of call buttons. The principal exception is where there is a separate elevator solely for the use of those in wheelchairs. Often, but not always, someone on staff is designated to operate that elevator, on an "as requested" basis, and to bring it back to "base" as it were, when the wheelchair passenger has exited. As this is no one's full-time job, it doesn't have a title. I also cannot imagine that "elevator by" would go down well in North America; I can't speak for "lift boy" in the U.K. Bielle 18:05, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

In the UK, lifts have buttons that passengers press to indicate the required floor, so we don't need someone to operate them for us. DuncanHill 18:07, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The OED lists "lift-boy" and lift-attendant" as valid words in British English. Possibly some of the top hotels still employ them.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:12, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

The OED's entries for that part of the alphabet were generally written around 1902 and last updated around 1975. Anyway, a word can still be "valid" for use in historical contexts even if the thing it refers to no longer exists: you can say things like "And so he became the new managing director, 30 years after joining the company as a lift attendant."

So the answer, I think is: we don't usually speak of people in that job betcause it pretty much doesn't exist any more, but we might refer to it in a historical context. If we are doing that, North Americans won't say "liftboy" because we know the job as "elevator attendant", but British people might say "liftboy" (at least if the person is a young male) or "lift attendant".

--Anonymous, July 3, 2007, 04:10 (UTC).

I suppose a bellboy might have carried out some of these activities as well. 194.168.231.2 11:28, 3 July 2007 (UTC)Wes

In Taiwan, many department stalls, malls etc have lift/ elevator attendants, though I always say lift ladies (I'm Australian). These ladies operate lifts/ elevators for customers, they dont have any other duties. Awzium 06:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

"Odd Autobiographical Habit" - Dubliners

In A Painful Case, Dubliners by James Joyce, Mr Duffy has "an odd autobiographical habit which lead him to compose in his mind from time to time a short sentence about himself containing a subject in the third person and a predicate in the past tense." Could someone give me an example of such a sentence, please? Thanks in advance 82.12.214.93 18:20, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

"Mr Duffy closed the book". "Mr Duffy" is the subject of the sentence, "closed the book" is the predicate. DuncanHill 18:30, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank-you 82.12.214.93 18:36, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Guys is "ignourant" ever used in old English? Or...

favourite, olde, and withe? I am in a discussion about language on Youtube here. -PatPeter 17:27, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Answered at Talk:Old English language. —Angr 19:49, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

July 3

French Question

How do you say "How are you?" in French? Someone told me that it's comment ca va but I always heard it as comme ca va. --Confused Linguist 00:12, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

"Comment ça va?" or just "Ça va?", the second syllable of "comment" is not pronunced clearly (to English-speaking ears) so can readily understand why you heard it as "comme". DuncanHill 00:16, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Kpalion has noticed in a previous question at Reference Desk/Language [Quote] that the translation depends upon the level of formality and how many people are addressed. It could be Comment allez-vous ? The liaison between comment and allez is mandatory and it sounds like Comment tallez-vous ? AldoSyrt 19:39, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Comment ends in a nasal vowel, not in a consonant as suggested (to English speakers) by the spelling–this is how -ent in French orthography is typically pronounced. — Zerida 03:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Wait, now what does Comment allez-vous mean? --Confused Linguist03:49, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Simply "How are you?" When I talk to a friend of mine I say: Comment ça va ? or (in a more elevated language) Comment vas-tu ?, if I talk to my CEO or to the President of the French Republic, I say (formal language): Comment allez-vous ? AldoSyrt 07:26, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Unless, of course, you are in French Polynesia, where you would use "Comment vas-tu?" The Jade Knight 09:36, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

get baked

Can someone tell me, what "to get baked" means? Thanks Jakob.scholbach 03:52, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

According to the urban dictionary, it means smoking more than the "normal" amount of the demon weed (marijuana). Don't ask me what the normal amount is (I didn't inhale, honest!). Clarityfiend 04:11, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

Ask Gingy? 194.168.231.2 12:04, 3 July 2007 (UTC)Wes

Article titles using non-english words

In my edits related to Chile I've noted that there are numerous articles about things which have non-English names. Examples, cueca, huaso, gringo, chupalla, Anticuchos, Asado, Cazuela, Charquican, Churrasco, Curanto, Empanada, etc. etc.

Some of these words have no precise English equivalent, while others may have exact or very close English words which mean the same thing. For example Asado is equivalent to Barbeque; Churrasco - Grilled beef (or meat), Empanada - turnover.

I wouldn't be surprized if there exist similar situations with other languages. My concern here is not specifically Spanish/English. What I'm wondering about is the appropriateness of naming articles in the English Wikipedia with foreign language names when there is an English word that might do. If there is no restriction, it would seem that Wikipedia may turn into a massive multi-language dictionary ... which could be either good or bad, depending on one's expectations but I'd like to know if there any is established policy or convention. --JAXHERE | ^Talk 18:14, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

I think most of those cases get away with it because those words have been imported to some extent in English. For instance, I would use the words empanada, calzone and turnover for three slightly different recipes. Foods in particular do lend themselves to word adoption from varioius cuisines. We picture something different with "wonton" than "dumpling". But, yes, we do have to limit ourselves to words in actual English circulation. — Laura Scudder ☎ 18:30, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

WP:MOS#Article_titles and WP:NAME might offer some advice. I agree with Laura Scudder. A turnover can be all sorts of delicacies: empanadas, knishes, calzoni etc. All with their own (variable) history, traditions, recipes etc and deserving their own article. ---Sluzzelin talk 18:55, 3 July 2007 (UTC)

This being the language ref desk I'm surpriced no-one has commented on the over-americanised English spelling. :) DirkvdM 12:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Copied from the help desk: The official designation in the manual of style is: whichever is more appropriate for the subject. For instance, Doctor Who would more appropriately use UK English, while Stargate SG-1 would use US English. In articles where nationality is not relevant (eg. Horse), then either one is appropriate so long as the spelling choice is consistant. However, it should not be corrected whole-cloth, as you describe. Edit wars over this are quite silly, and editors involved should be reminded to leave it be. -- Kesh 23:48, 26 June 2007 (UTC) -Czmtzc 14:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Ehm, are you reacting to me? I was joking. Note the smiley. :) DirkvdM 06:56, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

July 4

english to welsh translation

How do you say summer fair in welsh? (I am doing a school poster and want to write it in english and welsh)

You could have a peek at some of these sites which offer English to Welsh / Welsh to English translations. Lanfear's Bane

I'd guess it's "ffair haf," but it's been a long time since I took Welsh. Katya 02:15, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I always like gŵyl, but that's more of a holiday or festival. Of course, ffair translates 'fair' most accurately. — Gareth Hughes 10:47, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hose hockey

Does anyone know what "hose hockey" means? It was posted in reply to a comment I made on the Humanities desk, and I haven't the foggiest what was intended by it. DuncanHill 02:03, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I am assuming from the context that an inflatable version of ice-hockey is not what was meant. DuncanHill 02:07, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe it was supposed to have been "Horse hockey" and the "r" just got dropped. BTW, "horse hockey" means "crap" or "shit" but in a less offensive manner, sort of like the way one would say "buffalo chips" or "cow peas". Reminds me of the time when I was asked in an e-mail if I knew of any good "layers" (it was supposed to have been "lawyers"). CJLippert 02:59, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Thank you - I must admit "horse hockey" would have suggested polo to me... as for buffalo chips and cow peas, I wouldn't have known them either! DuncanHill 11:05, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I think that should be "cow pies", not "peas", unless you have rather remarkably small cows.... - Nunh-huh 11:04, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Desperate Dan eats cow pies. DuncanHill 11:44, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

That all depends. The big poop plop from cows are called "cow pies" but the "cow peas" come from rabbits. CJLippert 13:20, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Cyrillic forms

Most Cyrillic typefaces look like roman, because the first printers in Russia were (if memory serves) Dutchmen imported by Peter the Great. Older Cyrillic lettering has very different forms. I have books on how to write various medieval Latin scripts stroke by stroke; I used to have a big book on Arabic calligraphy; it's easy to find pictures of the various styles of Chinese writing ... but I've found nothing on Cyrillic. Got any pointers? —Tamfang 05:09, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

• Seems to me the chart in Early Cyrillic alphabet shows the letters well enough to figure out the stroke-by-stroke. --jpgordon^∇∆∇∆ 18:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

From my knowledge of Russian, Cyrillic is never written by hand so as to resemble the printed characters. That would be as eccentric as writing English with serifs. Rather, cursive is used exclusively, so I'd advise you to use cursive, which should be exampled in a good Russian textbook (basic chart here). (When learning Russian, I was made to write so much in cursive that I acquired a more fluent hand in it than in English, where my writing still bears the influence of the Cyrillic...) Wareh 22:35, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hm. At least in Serbia, one is supposed to use plain "printed" Cyrillic letters when filling e.g. various official forms, so the assertion of "exclusive" cursive use seems too far fetched for me. Maybe that's just because our Supreme Culture™ was poluted by foreign malicious elements :-P.
In any case, I read Tamfang's post as pertaining chiefly to calligraphy, and the jpgordon's answer is a good one. Here are few illustrations of the medieval Cyrillic caligraphy, and I suppose a plenty of similar can be found in the internet.Duja► 12:08, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

...and here are some free typefaces, quite a few of those trying to imitate the medieval calligraphy. Duja► 12:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Quite right that I did not have the special case of calligraphic printing in mind. Also, I'm sure Russians also use "block letters" to fill out forms; I was only thinking of more usual uses of writing, and I don't doubt that "exclusively" is an exaggeration. Wareh 14:50, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

If he were/ was rich....

I recently came across "If I were rich......".

Now I have always said (and thought) "If he was rich (or any other adjective here)" was correct.

Can you tell me why I need to use "were" instead of "was" when the subject is HE, SHE, I, or IT.

Awzium 06:31, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

It is in the subjunctive mood because it says something that is contrary to fact. "Was" is used with HE, SHE, I, or IT (amongst others) when in the past tense indicative mood. (it is also used with past tense subjuntice). eg.

"If I were rich, I would buy a car" (implying I'm not rich)

"When I was rich, I bought a car" (I was actually rich at some point)

A virtually identical phrase occurs in the lyrics to the Jerry Bock song 'If I were a rich man' from the musical Fiddler on the Roof. According to one website (there are many; a Google search will find one for you) these lyrics are: "If I were a rich man / Daidle deedle daidle / Daidle daidle deedle daidle dum / All day long I'd biddy-biddy-bum / If I were a wealthy man." I think that explains it.

"If I was rich" is often used in the same way as "if I were rich" in less formal and less educated speech and writing. It can also being used in contrast with the subjunctive; e.g. "If I was rich, I would be much happier, so you should give me a million dollars." "Son, most people think 'if I were rich, I'd be much happier.'" "But most people don't have a billionaire father."--Prosfilaes 10:45, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Some forms of the subjunctive are more commonly used in American English than British English (see American and British English differences#Use of tenses). If I remember rightly, H. W. Fowler was ready to abandon the subjunctive completely, except for a few stock phrases (e.g. 'If I were you', 'Bless you' etc.). Perhaps the subjunctive has made something of a come-back in British English since Fowler's time. — Gareth Hughes 11:00, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Of course, there are situations in which "If I was..." is appropriate. Compare, for instance:

"If I were happy, I'd be sleeping better."

to

"My teenage pattern was simple. If I was happy, I was polite. If I was unhappy, I was sullen."—PaulTanenbaum 14:38, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Note also "The man looked to see if his son was still working," where some people may say were for hypercorrectness.--El aprendelenguas 20:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Note that in the contrary-to-fact (subjunctive) use of "were," the reference is not to the past, but to the present (or, sometimes more loosely, to the future). "If I were smarter, I wouldn't be here right now with you on this fool's errand!" Wareh 22:32, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Anglo-Saxon Biblical Names.

Parts of the bible were translated into Anglo-Saxon, we even have an article on it Old_English_Bible_translations, I was just wondering what names were used? Were Latin names used, or were there Anglo-Saxon equivalents of Jesus, Joseph, Mary, James, John etc? Cyta 08:02, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

They were Latin-based forms sometimes adapted to fit with Old English requirements. In small passages I have on hand, there's Abrahām, Isaāc, Daniēl, Daniēle (dative singular case form), Daniēles (genitive singular case form), Cyrus, Cyres (genitive singular case form), Abacuc (i.e. Habakkuk), Babilōn, Nabochodonosor, etc. Judea is Iūdēa-land, Jewish/Jew/Judean is Iūdēisc and Babylonian is Babilōnisc. AnonMoos 09:08, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks AnonMoos. With a little googling of my own I have found what I think are references to Jesus as hælend. But I can't work out if this is a modern or original translation. Apparently it meant healer. Cyta 09:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Hælend (with long vowel in first syllable, can't find Unicode character for "æ" with macron) was the Old-English translation of Latin Salvator. AnonMoos 15:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Looking at the Old-English Wikipedia, the requested names are I(h)esus, Ioseph, Maria(m), Iacobus and Iohannes. — Gareth Hughes 16:06, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

ǣ --Kjoonlee 17:27, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

And for what it's worth, it's "Crist" in "The Dream of the Rood". - Nunh-huh 07:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for all your answers, now I know! Cyta 08:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC) z

robert mugabe

I am trying to clear up an apparent anomaly regarding the spelling of Robert Mugabe. There are quite a few other sites around with an alternative spelling of Robert Mugawbe or Mugawbee. I wondered if there ever was such a spelling . wiki seems not have any reference at all to a possible existence to this alternative. I wondered if there might be a historical background to the spelling which might have evolved or been overlooked with time. Is anyone able to throw some light on this or explain how these other sites seem to have got hold of an alternative. What sparked me off was that I had a faint recollection of the alternative but now there is a debate as to which one could be correct

Many thanks

DP

They seem to simply be errors. If you do a search in the News Section [12] of Google they both return 'Did you mean: Mugabe?'. Lanfear's Bane

The CIA World fact book has it as Mugabe [13] - X201 11:52, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Maybe they're confusing Mugabe with Zimbabwe (or, as some people pronounce it, Zimbwabe). -- JackofOz 12:10, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Actually, I would bet that "Mugawbee" is often an intentionally derogatory misspelling... AnonMoos 15:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Czech Stress on first syllable

If, as I am led to believe, all Czech words without exception are pronounced with the primary stress on the first syllable, does this mean that Czechs would pronounce Martina Navratilova's name MAR-ti-na NAV-ra-til-o-va? -- JackofOz 12:48, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Sure. Only one-syllable prepositions and proclitica and enclitica are exceptions. Such a preposition takes the stress; pro Martinu (for Martina) would have stress on the preposition. Proclitica and enclitica (reflexive pronouns, auxiliary verbs, etc.) have no stress in Czech. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 13:30, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

In addition, all of the "a" vowels are broad, as in "star," not short, as in "cat." The latter vowel, IPA /æ/, doesn't exist in Czech. Also, the second and third a's in "Navrátilová" have accents on them, so they should be held twice as long as a normal "a" vowel. Oh yeah, don't forget to roll the r's, as in Spanish. -- Mwalcoff 22:50, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

OK, you might also want to know that both of the written Ts are pronounced as palatal consonants, IPA [c], not alveolar consonants, IPA [t]. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 00:01, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Although the difference between /t/ and /c/ may be too little to worry about... I've never even noticed that Czechs pronounce the letter "t" in a manner different from that of English speakers. -- Mwalcoff 01:59, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I wouldn't agree that the difference is too little to worry about. /t/ and /c/ are phonemes in Czech! Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 09:32, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

It would be a little surprising if they didn't. I've studied Russian and have had exposure to some other Slavic languages, so I can appreciate the distinction being made here. Apart from differences in the tongue positions, the English T is somewhat more "breathy" than the Slavic Ts I've heard. I was aware that Czech Rs are rolled, As are always long, and accented As are twice as long as unaccented ones. Thanks for the replies. -- JackofOz 03:28, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

I suppose you are referring to the fact that the English [t] is aspirated in most positions, while the [t] in Czech is never aspirated. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 14:10, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Dead right, Daniel. -- JackofOz 22:51, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Carachter Name

I need help choosing a male carachter name for a fan-fic and I decided to use a japanese name (for I chose Rin as another carachter). Could you give me a few suggestions for some names? (Please type them in english) -I PWN U ALL 16:37, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

This site (http://www.babynology.com/japanese_babynames.html) has a list which includes 'most popular'. Hope this helps ny156uk 17:36, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Ugh stay away from that site if you want Japanese names. It's a mess. If you're looking for male given names from Japan, Ichiro, Jiro and Mitsuro are very dull names. I'm personally familiar with... Kaoru, Kojiro, Taro, Kotaro, Sentaro, Nobu, Hiroshi, Hiro, Nobuhiro, Shinji, Shingo, Shin-ichi, Shinnosuke, Daisuke, Hide, Hideki, Hiroaki, Akira, Takeshi, Shun, Ryoji, Makoto, Takaharu, Takaki, Jinpachi, Jintetsu, Takao, Kanzaki, Koji, Katsuhiro, Ken-ichi, Haruki, Kengo, Kazuo and Ken.

If you're looking for surnames, Nakamura, Yamada, Tanaka, Kimura, Suzuki and Saito are dull names. I can't quote many surnames from the top of my head.. --Kjoonlee 17:23, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

this might help a bit - it's a guide to what Japanese surnames mean. You could find something that fits your character's personality or actions.

Actions during speech

In a bit of writing I'm doing, one of the characters glances at someones nametag while addressing them. The way I've done this ,“All right, thanks… (Norman glanced at the man’s nametag)…Roger”, seems a little odd. What's the best way to do this (should the quotation marks be closed first, and does it need brackets)? Laïka 17:39, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

How about: "All right, thanks, ... Roger", Norman said, glancing at the man's nametag? It's clear enough that the glance took place during the ellipsis. —Angr 17:44, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

If you need to have the description in the middle of the quote, then yes, you need to close the quotation marks first. You don't need parentheses. However, this construction is a bit tricky, because anything like "Norman glanced at the man's nametag" is a complete clause and can't be joined on with commas. I would recommend either "All right, thanks ..." Norman said, pausing to glance at the man's nametag, "Roger." a la Angr, or "All right, thanks,"—he glanced at the man's nametag—"Roger." The latter is less formal, and would not be acceptable for a newspaper, but may be fine for your purposes. Tesseran 18:42, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

Newspapers don't normally report dialogue in this manner at all. In a work of fiction it would be fine, I'd say. --Anon, July 5, 2007, 06:31 (UTC).

Translation of obscure German term

What does geleute mean? I have searched many dictionaries and I have not found it in one. The context is a late 19th century Austria-Hungarian (Galician) legal document, in the form: “(name) Tochter der geleute (husband) und (wife) (family name)”. Then again, I may have misintrepreted it as the document is written in old German cursive, which I could only readt with the aid of a chart. Ratzd'mishukribo 20:11, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

I can't find it in any dictionaries either. It looks like a collective form of Leute "people", and from the context you'd expect it to mean something along the lines of "married couple". All I can find on the Web are misspellings or archaic spellings of Geläute (a ringing noise), which doesn't make sense here. Any chance of uploading a scan of the original document? —Angr 20:28, 4 July 2007 (UTC)

It is fairly easy to find the spelling Geleute (neuter) in reference to the tolling of bells (Glockengeläute). But here's a source for the meaning "a suite of persons accompanying a lord or high personage," which if not immediately relevant to the document as reported by Ratzd'mishukribo at least suggests the existence of a form related to Leute. Wareh 15:03, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

It seems that I deciphered the cursive wrongly after all: in another document written more clearly in the same hand it is spelled Eheleute. Thank you. Ratzd'mishukribo 20:12, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Vowels

As a school child, I was taught (and made to memorize in a rather sing/song fashion) that the vowels of the alphabet were "a, e, i, o, u, ... and sometimes y and w". Can anyone give me examples of the letter "w" serving as a vowel? They did not simply add the "w" in to make the poem/song actually rhyme, did they? Thanks. (Question assumes the English language.) (JosephASpadaro 21:34, 5 July 2007 (UTC))

cwm springs to mind. DuncanHill 21:37, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

And W#As_a_vowel_in_English will tell you more. DuncanHill 21:40, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

W is a vowel in Welsh (eg mwng). Totnesmartin 22:26, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

"W" can be a Semivowel, which is the second part of a dipthong (i.e. "cow"). Katya 23:47, 5 July 2007 (UTC)

Ya vs. ahora

According to my Spanish dictionaries, "Ya" and "ahora" both translate as "now." Are they interchangeible or not?