Talk:Barack Obama
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Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
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This page has archives. Sections older than 3 days may be automatically archived by Lowercase sigmabot III when more than 5 sections are present. |
Redundant discussions
Please skim this page first (and ideally the FAQ) before starting a new discussion on the "president elect" designation, or Obama's race/ethnicity. You'll probably find there's already a section there where you can add your comments. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 00:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)
- Is there an article or section related to the Transition Team? Chadlupkes (talk) 23:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)
- The "Race/ethnicity" section has (presumably by "Wikidemon", the self-styled "owner" of this page) not just been consolidated or shifted to another already existing section: it has, in effect, simply been removed. The contents are no longer available unless one presses a special link to enter the "archive". Wikipedia guidelines explicitly forbid tampering with other contributors' material on a Talk Page. The current treatment of the "Race/ethnicity" section (rendering none of the contributions visible on the main Talk Page, effectively "hiding" it all inside an "archive") is a violation of these guidelines.Jakob37 (talk) 03:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- Anything that can be done to speed the loading of this talk page up, I'm all for it. It's taking forever to load, and old issues that have been discussed ad infinitum don't need to be here. It's hard enough to discuss current issues as it is. Dayewalker (talk) 03:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- In that case, there are several other "overly large" sections that could be archived. If User#1 thinks that Topic X is too long and boring, then that user may, without further ado, hide its contents inside an archive. But then User#2 thinks that Topic Y is too long and boring, so that user hides Topic Y's material inside an archive, although User#1 thinks it should stay visible. Is that how it's going to work?Jakob37 (talk) 05:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)
- In regards to the issue of African-American, mixed race, Black, designation by oneself vs. by others, etc., this talk page has spiraled completely out of control. I was rather miffed a day or two ago to find that my contributions, along with others, on the subject had, without any consultation, suddenly been stuffed into an archive, and now I am doubly miffed to see that the same subject has grown another head, even much larger than the material subjected to archiving, and yet nobody is archiving it this time -- quite UNFAIR. In any case, the more important point I would like to raise is that 95% to 99% of the contributions on these interconnected topics have no PARTICULAR connection to Obama; these issues are part of the socio-political nature of American (U.S.) life. Since there seems to be no lack of Wiki-editors who love to manipulate other people's contributions, may I suggest that all this material, instead of being archived (effectively out-of-sight, out-of-mind), be used to construct a separate article on "race attitudes in the U.S." or something to that effect (cf. my comment in "Wikipedia:Featured article review/Barack Obama" ). The Obama article itself should contain an appropriately brief discussion of Obama's relationship to these issues, followed by a hyperlink to the (proposed) article where these issues are described/discussed in the larger context that they deserve. And the Obama Talk-Page will then hopefully return to a focus on Obama himself. The way that Obama has dealt with these issues is not so different from the way thousands or even millions of other people have done.Jakob37 (talk) 08:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)
69.134.20.90 (talk) 15:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC) i have come to notice that some of the people on this board are extremely racist and wont admit in the text of the article that obama is half white ..i understand the importance to some of the people on here that he be considered black but face facts he isnt.. he is listed as the first african american when in fact ,he isnt ..he might be the first half african american ever elected then when a true african american is elected you wont have to undo all the lies you have spouted about this one.this is afterall,a place where people come for knowledge not some general idea that is put forth by some people
- Your comments are totally off base from beginning to end. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 15:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC) bugs , nice brush off if i am so offbase then why isnt it mentioned anywhere in the text about his white hertitage..people are wanting to claim his citzenship but not the people who gave him the right to that citizenship his black father was not a citizen so why is everyone harping on his race and wont acknowledge the white side ..maybe if this source were more fair to other people there wouldnt be the rage about how a man with dual citizenship got elected president or about where he was born when anybody can have a birth certficate made up with about 30 minutes planning just a little research i can be anybody with a legitament birth certficate if you want to fair to the readers and to the man himself at least make it fair
- Have you bothered to read past the first paragraph? Like where it states that his mother was white? Oh, and have you found any reliable sources that don't call him "the first African American President"? Of course he's African American. He's also English American. But that last part is hardly news, as most every President has been European American. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC) yes i read the entire article and have seen lots of things about his life not published or ignored but the point i am making which you seem to be dodging he is only half and should be noted that way.. it is not as if it is hidden by him or anybody else if you were half italian 1/4 english and 1/4 russian would you want to be considered just russian ..he is english arabian and kenyan
- We describe him the way the reliable sources describe him. And this has been already discussed at length. Your comments bring nothing new to the discussion. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:46, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC) so you need to change the slogan from "the free encyclopedia" to the free " follow the masses rumormill" if you cant post truths about somebody
- First rule: Wikipedia bases its information on reliable sources, not on the "rumormill" and not on someone's opinion of the "truth". Second rule: Kindly put your 4 tildes at the END of your comments rather than the beginning. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
my apologies for posting incorectly ,but back to the main argument so you are saying that it isnt a reliable source that he is half white. if it is a reliable source it should be noted in the lead paragragh instead of half way down on one line69.134.20.90 (talk) 17:19, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
- We go by reliable sources, and the wording is proper on that basis. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 17:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
genealogical tree of Obama
look at this [4].
in the article there is nothing about Obama's genealogy, despite it has been verified by multples media and newpapers in the past, as you can see in the notes. The article on English Wikipedia must be integrated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.37.49 (talk) 21:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- The article discusses Obama's parents, grandparents, and children. That's a reasonable amount of family material. English Wikipedia articles generally do not contain genealogy trees (there are exceptions, such as some articles about royal families), but there is an article, Family of Barack Obama with much more information. Wikipedia isn't really a great resource for complete genealogies - there are other websites with that focus, and more useful tools. We can direct readers to that through the power of the hyperlink and citation (most apt for the family article, not this one). Wikidemon (talk) 21:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
- To expand on what Wikidemon posted: There are many relevant links, but Wikipedia is not a link farm. That's why (in External links) we link to Obama's category on ODP which includes the link to: William Addams Reitwiesner Genealogical Services - Ancestry of Barack Obama for those interested. Flatterworld (talk) 19:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Welcome to the English Wikipedia, M r (or, of course, M/ s) IP! My own suggestion…
- Find the right Obama sub-article… By your going to this article's "Further Reading" section (here: Barack Obama#Further Reading) and checking out the navigation-box template for The Series Of Articles About President-elect Barack Obama…then clicking on its Wikipedia link that says, "Family."
- Find the correct section… By, once your screen loads up The Obama Family article, your looking at its table of contents and clicking the article's section entitled "Distant relations"…
- Make a reasonable contribution… By, now that you've got to that section, your translating from the foreign language source you've mentioned just above, and contributing in English a sentence of arguably (quote) notable (end of quote) information that would fit the subject of this section: distant genealogical relationships of Barack Obama…
- Cite a pertinent source in English… By, now, your using search engines or whatnot and finding an English-language source for this same info, then appending a footnote to your contribution that would reference it as a source…
- Hover over the article every day… checking back until the inevitable um likewise hovering -- or, that is, circling -- sharks have arrived to delete it, alleging it simply not to be notable…
- Defend your contribution… By your going to the Family article's talkpage and contending that the information you had contributed "…was indeed notable!"… Of course, explaining why you feel it to be…
- Again… Welcome! Just tips me hat but then 〜on thought bows deeply … 05:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- The Wikipedia Cycle. And you wondered why Wkipedia's logo is circular. :) Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 07:39, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- In fact, M r or M/ s IP, much of the info you cite is in the section I mentioned above, in a "collapsed" table. (Just click on its button that says "Show." And....don't worry, folks; all pix in it are free!)
Template:Selected genealogical relations with Barack Obama
Why criticism of the article belongs on this page
I don't understand why user:Orangejumpsuit's comment does not belong on this page, since it is criticizing the sanitation of the Obama article? His comment regarding holding Republican articles to the same standard can be added to the Republican talk pages, but his point regarding the fairness and balance of this page should not be censored. I think his comment should be opened up for discussion on this talk page. Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- Do you have any idea what some of us went through in September-October, trying to defend the Sarah Palin page against a siege of tabloid junk? Eventually we just gave up, and if her page is laden with unfair criticism, that's the reason. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 16:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- So in other words it's fine to leave Republican pages full of attacks, but Obama's must remain pure. The political bias of Liberalpedia is amazing.
- Being rather familiar with disruptive editing, it should be quite easy to recognize when a person is merely present to push an agenda rather than honestly contribute to an article. The section above by this person was a soapboxing attack on other editors who do not share his particular opinion on the matter, and looking through his edit history, this is not the first time. Tarc (talk) 17:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- If there's any actual evidence that the page is being whitewashed of legitimate and pertinent critical commentary then I'm sure it would receive a fair hearing here. The evidence seems to suggest a rather strong correlation between "editors who propose the addition of critical commentary here" and "editors who believe that Obama is General Zod's Muslim half-nephew", however. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- In 2007 Obama himself said that his middle name and its Muslim roots will help heal the rift between the Muslim and Western world. You can't have it both ways.
- It's worth keeping in mind that he's not President yet, so technically he hasn't done anything yet. Once he does, there will be ample legitimate criticism. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 18:37, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- He's been alive for quite some time, and has been an active member of adult society for most of that. This is not just the Obama Presidency article. Drawings he made in nursery school are being excluded because they are trivial, not because they weren't drawn during his term. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 23:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
- True. I mean he hasn't done anything as President yet. And criticisms need to be based on reliable sources raising worthwhile points, not "he's a liberal and we hate him" kinds of stuff. For example, he's already being accused of going against his pledge of being a change agent by bringing in the same old people to run the show, to essentially re-create the Clinton administration (hopefully without the Lewinsky factor), although even that's more of a partisan complaint than anything, being as how Bush did his best to re-create his father's administration. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 05:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- As it says at the top of the page: This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama article. Good faith proposals to improve this article are not - and will not be - censored. Note, however, that the archived section above does not contain any such proposals. It does contain criticism of this article, implying that there is a problem with this article with respect to WP:NPOV, but rather than suggesting that this perceived problem be fixed, instead proposes to treat this article as establishing a precedent that should affect all other political biographies. Wikipedia doesn't work that way. SHEFFIELDSTEELTALK 19:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
Donofrio v. Wells
Hello,
There's currently a case (Donofrio v. Wells) pending in front of the Supreme Court of the United States regarding Obama's citizenship. Maybe it could be included as a link here or in a subarticle. Also, I have no idea what it means. I just created the article because I was surprised Wikipedia didn't have one already. Tony (talk) 02:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
Chronic Gambler Jet Schizo Donofrio's lawsuit is invalid, that's why it is not included. Jet Schizo claims Obama is not a Natural Born Citizen because Pop Obama was a British citizen. A Natural Born Citizen however, is anyone born on U.S. Ground. Regardless of Parents Country of Origin. Obama was born in Hawaii (USA). The specifics are simple, and the inclusion of a frivolous and failed lawsuit is not of encyclopedic value. --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 03:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Also, the wiki page for the lawsuit you created doesn't meet merit of being included. I have no idea how to remove the page, but I'm just making it know so someone else can fix it. --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 03:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- Given the lawsuit is being considered by the Supreme Court, it would seem not to be invalid. Not only are you censoring the article, you're censoring discussion of the article and other articles. If Obamassiah was born in Hawaii, why has he spent $800,000 on legal defense rather than simply showing his birth certificate (not the certificate of live birth.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.179.114 (talk) 06:36, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- There's a process for nomination for deletion. That's not something I've done much, but I'm sure someone who reads these pages will know. Also, it seems like that guy arrived out of the blue (or the red) and hadn't read a blessed thing that's been written here about it. Or else he ignored it. The only reason for such an article at this point is a POV content fork. In fact, maybe I'll try a speedy delete and see what happens. That I think I can do. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- In fact, it's already nominated. Go to that page and make your opinion known! Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
- There's a process for nomination for deletion. That's not something I've done much, but I'm sure someone who reads these pages will know. Also, it seems like that guy arrived out of the blue (or the red) and hadn't read a blessed thing that's been written here about it. Or else he ignored it. The only reason for such an article at this point is a POV content fork. In fact, maybe I'll try a speedy delete and see what happens. That I think I can do. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 04:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)
The Court refused to hear the case without commenting. The court has to decide if it wants to hear one more he is not a citizen type case.[5] Edkollin (talk) 06:07, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
As noted down-thread, a Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories article has been created to provide a home for these fringey-but-notable issues. Lestatdelc (talk) 09:59, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Languages spoken
I've tried to find out whether Obama speaks any other languages beside English, through perusing Wikipedia, that is, but to no avail. As he went to school in Jakarta and had classes in Bahasa Indonesia, according to Early life and career of Barack Obama, and given his education, sophistication, cosmopolitanism, and multi-ethnic kin, it is certainly understandable that one may be led to wonder about that. Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
- I do believe he previously spoke whatever language they use in Indonesia, I have no source that I can easily find. Take it with a grain of salt. --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 01:51, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
- This came up at the reference desk once. [6] Apparently, he is only fluent in English, but knows a little Spanish, Swahili, and Indonesian. Zagalejo^^^ 02:08, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
- According to what my friend has told me… (who is a videographer -- see e/g his work here -- and who himself, this friend, taught English in Indonesia in the '70s, thereafter studied the language in California and now speaks it, and, according to his bio, had returned for 6 months in 1981 to do field research in Bali, Java and Sumatra) …Barack's sister Maya told my friend at a campaign event in the SF Bay Area that her brother Barack understands Indonesian well but is less fluent in his ability to speak it. Just tips me hat but then 〜on thought bows deeply … 02:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
- I see, thank you very much for answering my question. Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:48, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Obama Birth Certificate Issue
I think this horse has been beaten enough for now. :) --Bobblehead (rants) 21:31, 8 December 2008 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
Why do you guys keep deleting it? It's a legitimate news story. I'm by no means saying he's guilty of anything but it's being covered on all major news networks now. What is this WikiChina? Doesn't this make us look like we are indeed trying to hide something? A lot of people who use Wikipedia take it as fact and we look pretty dumb not even mentioning it. There is mention of the McCain controversy on his page. I'm sure you'll find controversies (true or not) on most presidents. Why not just acknowledge that it exists and state that nothing has been proven. Do you think by leaving it off it will magically go away? All it shows is that we are being commies like they claim and it really discredits the entire page by totally leaving it out. My 2 cents. Cheers, Ryan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.180.54.191 (talk) 03:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
Controversies appear on many biographies once they reach a level of public discourse which indicates that the controversy is important to the subject's life and that providing information on this issue would be helpful for those coming here to learn more about the subject. The question here, then, is whether or not this issue has reached that level of public discourse. I've seen segments on this on CNN, and the articles have popped up all over mainstream media, not just right-wing attack blogs. The article could probably use a sentence on this no unlike the one offered above, but with less opinion. The issue itself isn't that complicated, and the facts will speak for themselves. Also, I'm not sure why we need to wait for the case to be settled before we comment. Most controversies don't have clean ends, and having one isn't necessary for inclusion in an article.LedRush (talk) 23:58, 7 December 2008 (UTC)
(undent) Just FYI, not all of the "natural-born citizen lawsuits" dispute that Obama was born in Hawaii and is a U.S. citizen. For example, the New Jersey lawsuit by Leo Donofrio (which will probably be dismissed by SCOTUS tomorrow) alleges that Obama was born in Hawaii and is a U.S. citizen, but nevertheless is not a "natural-born citizen" because he was born with dual citizenship. There's a Connecticut lawsuit that makes the same argument. I'll refrain from giving my opinion about it, but it's certainly a very different argument from the argument that Obama's unreleased long-form birth certificate may indicate a foreign birth.Ferrylodge (talk) 02:35, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
I guess we may never know. :-) SCOTUS declined to hear Donofrio v. Wells. [11] --Evb-wiki (talk) 15:14, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
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List Of Campain Stops
An important list of campain stops would be a good edition to this article. Forteto42 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Forteto42 (talk • contribs) 15:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- Not for this article, but if someone is that interested in doing it, a list article might be created and linked to the campaign article. That being said, I'm not sure how necessary such a list article would be.. Seems to be quite a bit of listcruft to me. --Bobblehead (rants) 17:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
- How about working in some of the more important campaign stops into the prose at the Barack Obama presidential campaign, 2008 article? Seems like that would be the logical place for it. --GoodDamon 19:21, 8 December 2008 (UTC)
change?
It appears that in this article Obama has been referred to as african american, as a mixed race person myself i would find it offencive for anyone to call me anything other than mixed race simply becuase i am niether white or black, this needs to be changed as it is not actually correct. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Joaswaahn (talk • contribs) 03:24, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
- Already covered at great length. We go with reliable sources, not original research. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 03:32, 9 December 2008 (UTC)
He considers himself black, so I think it would only be polite to refer him as such.--Listen to your Princess, dear Wikipedians. (talk) 16:23, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Obama citizenship conspiracy theories
Following a discussion on the fringe theories noticeboard about how to deal with a metastizing series of articles and subsections relating to Obama's citizenship, Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories has been created to provide a home for these fringey-but-notable issues. Donofrio v. Wells and similar subsections of Andy Martin (U.S. politician), Philip J. Berg and Alan Keyes have been condensed and merged into a roundup of legal cases on this issue; see Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories#Litigation. I recommend that editors seeking to add such material should be politely but firmly steered in the direction of this new article, where such material can be corralled without exporting disruption to other articles. Also, if you know of Obama birth certificate or citizenship material that presently exists in other articles, please let me know so that it can be migrated into the new article. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:24, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- You might want to generalize that the "Obama conspiracy theories", as the Rezko and Blagojevich stuff will be coming out of the woodwork also. Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? 01:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- The citizenship conspiracy theories are in a class of their own; it's better to have a focused article rather than just a grab-bag of random conspiracy theories. If there is significant coverage of the Illinois issues than I'm sure we could look at creating an article on that topic. -- ChrisO (talk) 01:34, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Failure to understand electoral system
Point of accuracy: He will not be "president-elect" until the Electoral College meets and confirms it. They certainly will, but as of now he is the "presumptive president-elect." And don't start that crap that "the news says he's the president-elect and that's a valid source." Until they meet, he's not, and it doesn't matter how many people claim he is.Mzmadmike (talk) 17:26, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- No, that "crap" is a Wikipedia Policy. Grsz11 17:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Of course it is not wikipedia policy. However, this was discussed at length and we have a compromise that has kept the peace, so please see the archives.LedRush (talk) 17:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Nevermind...it looks like the consensus footnote has been removed.LedRush (talk) 17:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- There, I've restored the note that was there to ensure that these discussions never get off the ground again. Move along...nothing to see here.LedRush (talk) 21:32, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- A foot note is not to say that consensus cannot change, nor should it be used to stifle debate. I would support such a change. I would say that is 2 people in the building of consensus for changeDie4Dixie (talk) 22:14, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Looking at the previous discussion in the archives, it's clear that the preponderance of reliable sources are using the simple "president-elect", and the Presidential Transition Act of 1963 also defines the next president as "president-elect". It would take an overwhelming consensus, if that, to override reliable sources and acts of congress. Not going to happen. Priyanath talk 22:25, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Nevermind...it looks like the consensus footnote has been removed.LedRush (talk) 17:44, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Of course it is not wikipedia policy. However, this was discussed at length and we have a compromise that has kept the peace, so please see the archives.LedRush (talk) 17:41, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- Where are your souces (absent WP:original researched synthesis, Mzmadmike?
- Note that the following is how things work, semantically: If you were at some point to become generally presumed to have been elected to the U.S. Presidency, what you then become called is the, yes, President-elect. (THEREFORE, use of the term presumptive President-elect would be entirely redundant in this situation. In other words, sure, if for some reason people were to stop presuming Obama were the president-elect, then people simply would stop using the term President-elect until there was one who was so presumed to be elected. Got it? Cf.: see Bush v. Gore, &cetera.)
- The point of fact in this matter is that we simply can't throw out all those media sources, sir or ma'am; 'cause, cousin, Wikipedia ain't about The Truth -- but about reflecting prestigeous secondary sources, plain & simple.
- Such as, I don't know, say The New York Times:
Times Topics > People > O > Obama, Barack
Barack Obama
President-Elect of the United States
Vice-Presidential Running Mate: Joseph R. Biden Jr. - Then, as a check to see if Wikipedia editors got this one reasonably right this time, let's check other prestigeous tertiary sources, e.g., The Encyclopaedia Britannica:
Barack Obama
president-elect of the United States
in full Barack Hussein Obama, Jr.
born Aug. 4, 1961, Honolulu, Hawaii, U.S.
American politician who on Nov. 4, 2008, was elected the 44th president of the United States, defeating Arizona Sen. John McCain, the Republican candidate. - Or, for that matter, we can even check with the United States government itself, such as the Biographical Directory of the United States Congress:
OBAMA, Barack, (1961 - )
Senate Years of Service: 2005-
Party: Democrat
OBAMA, Barack, a Senator from Illinois; born in Honolulu, Hawaii, August 4, 1961[... ... ...]elected as a Democrat to the U.S. Senate in 2004 for term beginning January 3, 2005; elected as the 44th President of the United States on November 4, 2008. - And last but not least, we can check the private organization headed by the public citizen (and, um, presumed elected presidential candidate, viz., the President-elect) Mr. Barack Obama?: CHANGE.GOV: OFFICE OF THE PRESIDENT-ELECT:
YOUR ADMINISTRATION
President-elect
Barack Obama
LEARN
Barack Obama was raised by a single mother and his grandparents.[...]
- Such as, I don't know, say The New York Times:
- Just tips me hat but then 〜on thought bows deeply … 22:39, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
Ethnicity in first sentence
The fact that Obama is "the first African American to be elected President of the United States" should not be in the first sentence. It's an important fact, and ought to be in the lead, but putting it there implies it is of equal importance as him being President-elect. His ethnicity was not in the first sentence of the Featured Article version (which was, admittedly, written before he was elected). This is the only politics and government FA where an individual's ethnicity is mentioned in the first sentence.--Cúchullain t/c 21:37, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- "President-elect of the United States and the first African-American to be elected President of the United States" is really awkward. It sounds like two separate things, plus it is a list of two items that are dissimilar, one being a position and the other being a superlative. For clarity and flow we should cut out the statement that he is president-elect because it is fully implied by the statement that he is the first African-American to be so. I share Cuchullain's sentiment, though, that the fact of his being President is primary. But how to do that without unduly minimizing the rather stunning importance of his accomplishment? How about "B.H.O....is President-Elect of the United States. The first African-American elected to the position, Obama....(etc)"? - Wikidemon (talk) 21:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- I don't think it is as straightforward as you think it is. Consider it from this alternative perspective: there have been lots of US presidents, but Obama will be the only African-American president. From a certain point of view, being an African American president is more remarkable than becoming president - especially to Americans. Most reliable sources talk about the historic nature of this particular election, purely because of the ethnicity. I suggest that this is of equal importance to his status as President-elect, and perhaps even of more importance. -- Scjessey (talk) 22:13, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- I have seen a small body of pan-african "scholarship" that indicate that he is not the first. Race is really not that important, or so I am lead to believe.I would have to say that I agree with Wikidemon here.Die4Dixie (talk) 22:18, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
- I also agree with Wikidemon's suggestion, and Cuchullain's approach - two sentences to cover the two different points. Priyanath talk 22:30, 10 December 2008 (UTC)
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