Talk:Barack Obama
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Frequently asked questions
Family and religious background Q1: Why isn't Barack Obama's Muslim heritage or education included in this article?
A1: Barack Obama was never a practitioner of Islam. His biological father having been "raised as a Muslim" but being a "confirmed atheist" by the time Obama was born is mentioned in the article. Please see this article on Snopes.com for a fairly in-depth debunking of the myth that Obama is Muslim. Barack Obama did not attend an Islamic or Muslim school while living in Indonesia age 6–10, but Roman Catholic and secular public schools. See [1], [2], [3] The sub-articles Public image of Barack Obama and Barack Obama religion conspiracy theories address this issue. Q2: The article refers to him as African American, but his mother is white and his black father was not an American. Should he be called African American, or something else ("biracial", "mixed", "Kenyan-American", "mulatto", "quadroon", etc.)?
A2: Obama himself and the media identify him, the vast majority of the time, as African American or black. African American is primarily defined as "citizens or residents of the United States who have origins in any of the black populations of Africa", a statement that accurately describes Obama and does not preclude or negate origins in the white populations of America as well. Thus we use the term African American in the introduction, and address the specifics of his parentage in the first headed section of the article. Many individuals who identify as black have varieties of ancestors from many countries who may identify with other racial or ethnic groups. See our article on race for more information on this concept. We could call him the first "biracial" candidate or the first "half black half white" candidate or the first candidate with a parent born in Africa, but Wikipedia is a tertiary source which reports what other reliable sources say, and most of those other sources say "first African American". Readers will learn more detail about his ethnic background in the article body. Q3: Why can't we use his full name outside of the lead? It's his name, isn't it?
A3: The relevant part of the Manual of Style says that outside the lead of an article on a person, that person's conventional name is the only one that's appropriate. (Thus one use of "Richard Milhous Nixon" in the lead of Richard Nixon, "Richard Nixon" thereafter.) Talk page consensus has also established this. Q4: Why is Obama referred to as "Barack Hussein Obama II" in the lead sentence rather than "Barack Hussein Obama, Jr."? Isn't "Jr." more common?
A4: Although "Jr." is typically used when a child shares the name of his or her parent, "II" is considered acceptable, as well. And in Obama's case, the usage on his birth certificate is indeed "II", and is thus the form used at the beginning of this article, per manual of style guidelines on names. Q5: Why don't we cover the claims that Obama is not a United States citizen, his birth certificate was forged, he was not born in Hawaii, he is ineligible to be President, etc?
A5: The Barack Obama article consists of an overview of major issues in the life and times of the subject. The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article. These claims are covered separately in Barack Obama citizenship conspiracy theories. Controversies, praise, and criticism Q6: Why isn't there a criticisms/controversies section?
A6: Because a section dedicated to criticisms and controversies is no more appropriate than a section dedicated solely to praise and is an indication of a poorly written article. Criticisms/controversies/praises should be worked into the existing prose of the article, per the Criticism essay. Q7: Why isn't a certain controversy/criticism/praise included in this article?
A7: Wikipedia's Biography of living persons policy says that "[c]riticism and praise of the subject should be represented if it is relevant to the subject's notability and can be sourced to reliable secondary sources, and so long as the material is written in a manner that does not overwhelm the article or appear to take sides; it needs to be presented responsibly, conservatively, and in a neutral, encyclopedic tone." Criticism or praise that cannot be reliably sourced cannot be placed in a biography. Also, including everything about Obama in a single article would exceed Wikipedia's article size restrictions. A number of sub-articles have been created and some controversies/criticisms/praises have been summarized here or been left out of this article altogether, but are covered in some detail in the sub-articles. Q8: But this controversy/criticism/praise is all over the news right now! It should be covered in detail in the main article, not buried in a sub-article!
A8: Wikipedia articles should avoid giving undue weight to something just because it is in the news right now. If you feel that the criticism/controversy/praise is not being given enough weight in this article, you can try to start a discussion on the talk page about giving it more. See WP:BRD. Q9: This article needs much more (or much less) criticism/controversy.
A9: Please try to assume good faith. Like all articles on Wikipedia, this article is a work in progress so it is possible for biases to exist at any point in time. If you see a bias that you wish to address, you are more than welcome to start a new discussion, or join in an existing discussion, but please be ready to provide sources to support your viewpoint and try to keep your comments civil. Starting off your discussion by accusing the editors of this article of having a bias is the quickest way to get your comment ignored. Talk and article mechanics Q10: This article is over 275kb long, and the article size guideline says that it should be broken up into sub-articles. Why hasn't this happened?
A10: The restriction mentioned in WP:SIZE is 60kB of readable prose, not the byte count you see when you open the page for editing. As of May 11, 2016, this article had about 10,570 words of readable prose (65 kB according to prosesize tool), only slightly above the guideline. The rest is mainly citations and invisible comments, which do not count towards the limit. Q11: I notice this FAQ mentions starting discussions or joining in on existing discussions a lot. If Wikipedia is supposed to be the encyclopedia anyone can edit, shouldn't I just be bold and fix any biases that I see in the article?
A11: It is true that Wikipedia is the encyclopedia that anyone can edit and no one needs the permission of other editors of this article to make changes to it. But Wikipedia policy is that, "While the consensus process does not require posting to the discussion page, it can be useful and is encouraged." This article attracts editors that have very strong opinions about Obama (positive and negative) and these editors have different opinions about what should and should not be in the article, including differences as to appropriate level of detail. As a result of this it may be helpful, as a way to avoid content disputes, to seek consensus before adding contentious material to or removing it from the article. Q12: The article/talk page has been vandalized! Why hasn't anyone fixed this?
A12: Many editors watch this article, and it is unlikely that vandalism would remain unnoticed for long. It is possible that you are viewing a cached result of the article; If so, try bypassing your cache. Q13: Why are so many discussions closed so quickly?
A13: Swift closure is common for topics that have already been discussed repeatedly, topics pushing fringe theories, and topics that would lead to violations of Wikipedia's policy concerning biographies of living persons, because of their disruptive nature and the unlikelihood that consensus to include the material will arise from the new discussion. In those cases, editors are encouraged to read this FAQ for examples of such common topics. Q14: I added new content to the article, but it was removed!
A14: Double-check that your content addition is not sourced to an opinion blog, editorial, or non-mainstream news source. Wikipedia's policy on biographies of living persons states, in part, "Material about living persons must be sourced very carefully. Without reliable third-party sources, it may include original research and unverifiable statements, and could lead to libel claims." Sources of information must be of a very high quality for biographies. While this does not result in an outright ban of all blogs and opinion pieces, most of them are regarded as questionable. Inflammatory or potentially libelous content cited to a questionable source will be removed immediately without discussion. Q15: I disagree with the policies and content guidelines that prevent my proposed content from being added to the article.
A15: That's understandable. Wikipedia is a work in progress. If you do not approve of a policy cited in the removal of content, it's possible to change it. Making cogent, logical arguments on the policy's talk page is likely to result in a positive alteration. This is highly encouraged. However, this talk page is not the appropriate place to dispute the wording used in policies and guidelines. If you disagree with the interpretation of a policy or guideline, there is also recourse: Dispute resolution. Using the dispute resolution process prevents edit wars, and is encouraged. Q16: I saw someone start a discussion on a topic raised by a blog/opinion piece, and it was reverted!
A16: Unfortunately, due to its high profile, this talk page sees a lot of attempts to argue for policy- and guideline-violating content – sometimes the same violations many times a day. These are regarded as disruptive, as outlined above. Consensus can change; material previously determined to be unacceptable may become acceptable. But it becomes disruptive and exhausting when single-purpose accounts raise the same subject(s) repeatedly in the apparent hopes of overcoming significant objections by other editors. Editors have reached a consensus for dealing with this behavior:
Other Q17: Why aren't the 2008 and 2012 presidential campaigns covered in more detail?
A17: They are, in sub-articles called Barack Obama 2008 presidential campaign and Barack Obama 2012 presidential campaign. Things that are notable in the context of the presidential campaigns, but are of minimal notability to Barack Obama's overall biography, belong in the sub-articles. Campaign stops, the presidential debates, and the back-and-forth accusations and claims of the campaigns can all be found there. |
This article must adhere to the biographies of living persons (BLP) policy, even if it is not a biography, because it contains material about living persons. Contentious material about living persons that is unsourced or poorly sourced must be removed immediately from the article and its talk page, especially if potentially libellous. If such material is repeatedly inserted, or if you have other concerns, please report the issue to this noticeboard.If you are a subject of this article, or acting on behalf of one, and you need help, please see this help page. |
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Archive 69: Religion
The consensus for that discussion was that Obama's religion is United Church of Christ. There was some support for Protestant. Christianity was not the consensus but a 3rd choice. Judith Merrick (talk) 19:38, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
- Are you saying the choices ranked 1. United Church of Christ, 2. Protestant, and 3. Christianity? I should point out that the United Church of Christ is part of Reformed Christianity ("Protestant"), which in turn is part of Christianity. This is almost like asking whether he's a human, a primate, or a mammal. The answer would be "All of the above"! The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 06:26, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
- Given how sock-infested it was by JB5000/Gaydenver, there is no consensus that can be drawn from such a tainted discussion. Start anew if you like, but it really seems like a lot of quibbling over a minor issue. Tarc (talk) 19:46, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
- Sounds like Al Gore and those wanting a re-vote! If Gore were president, Obama would never have become president. Romney might be. Palin would still be an unknown governor. Judith Merrick (talk) 21:13, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Gaydenver was found not to be a sock of JB50000 but Tarc was accused of being a sock. Huh? It seems that the pro-Christianity people were quibbling over "a minor issue".
In terms of objectivity, Christianity's sources are SPS (self published sources) which are deemed unreliable. References show that he is United Church of Christ. Obama distanced himself from Rev. Wright, not the Church. Obama was on TV yesterday and he did not repudiate the United Church of Christ. He just doesn't go to church often but has designated Camp David as his church for now. Judith Merrick (talk) 21:10, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
- As you yourself note, labeling him as United Church of Christ is potentially problematic, given some ambiguities on the issue. Better to just simply say Christian. Grunge6910 (talk) 22:26, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
- And Christian is not potentially problematic, it is problematic. Putting Camp David church is just making things up and fiddling with facts. United Church of Christ is the most accurate and specific. If accuracy and specificity is not desired, then change his name to Bernard H. Obama II since that is almost correct. Bernard, Barack, very similar. Judith Merrick (talk) 22:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
- Got to point out how horribly flawed and fallacious your argument is; the United Church is at least part of Christianity. To compare Barack with a name which is nothing more than similar is absurd. Christianity might not be the precise answer, but it seems no one is completely sure what BO's true affiliation is, other than...drum roll...Christianity. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.134.213.122 (talk) 08:42, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- And Christian is not potentially problematic, it is problematic. Putting Camp David church is just making things up and fiddling with facts. United Church of Christ is the most accurate and specific. If accuracy and specificity is not desired, then change his name to Bernard H. Obama II since that is almost correct. Bernard, Barack, very similar. Judith Merrick (talk) 22:58, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Wrong, that was not the consensus. Also, the sock puppet investigation did not find anyone to be different people, in fact the conclusion was that they were either the same person or in close contact IRL. I would call that either sockpuppets or meatpuppets. While I appreciate the work done by the admins and CUs, it's unbelievable to me that you and the others listed are not either the same person or working to undermine Wikipedia together. In any case, it doesn't matter right now. All of your proposals were rejected and claiming 'consensus' when there is none is eerily familiar. DD2K (talk) 23:29, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
- Eerily familiar? "change his name to Bernard H. Obama II since that is almost correct" vs. "why don't we just say he's the president of a large North American country?" At the very least it seems like a couple of editors flunked the same Logic and Comprehension classes. Fat&Happy (talk) 23:48, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
- This is pretty silly. United Church of Christ is a subset of Christianity. Saying that Obama is Christian is accurate if he belongs to any Christian church or denomination. The example about Bernard is totally irrelevant. The 888th Avatar (talk) 23:41, 31 March 2010 (UTC)
Christianity is accurate and we shouldn't be more precise or detailed than that at this time without additional reliable sources. Technically, Obama is a former member of the United Church of Christ, see this correspondence, and the cited Associated Press article says as much: "The United Church of Christ, the denomination from which Obama resigned when he left Wright's church, issued a written invitation to join a UCC denomination in Washington and resume his connections to the church." Obama has not yet resumed his connections, so the UCC is most likely is, and will remain, his former denomination, yet these sources are not quite enough verification to assert that the UCC is indeed his former denomination, e.g. United Church of Christ (until 2008) added underneath Christianity. To do so, I think we may need additional secondary or tertiary sources that verify his break with the UCC as a consequence of leaving Trinity. --Modocc (talk) 17:39, 5 April 2010 (UTC)
- So Modocc seems to be saying "United Church of Christ (until 2008), Christianity (2008-present)". This is honest. I'm not sure he quit the church, just the Trinity United Church of Christ so I was thinking United Church of Christ. But either one is better than Christianity alone, which is almost a coverup, shame on Wikipedia. Judith Merrick (talk) 23:36, 7 April 2010 (UTC)
- No, Modocc seems to be saying his personal opinion is that "United Church of Christ (until 2008), Christianity (2008-present)" might be accurate but it would be improper to post that without clearer reliable sources.
- "almost a coverup"? A cover-up of what? He's a secret Coptic or Gnostic? Fat&Happy (talk) 00:06, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Modocc isn't even saying that, he specifically stated at the beginning of his post that "Christianity is accurate and we shouldn't be more precise or detailed than that at this time without additional reliable sources". The editor(Judith Merrick that makes these leaps into "consensus" by completely ignoring real consensus does the same things over and over. The same exact leaps and muddying of issues that JB50000 had done over and over. I tried pointing that out in an official manner, and let the results be what they were. But this is just ridiculous. DD2K (talk) 00:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've had this discussion watched for some time, and I agree that User:Judith Merrick is another likely sock of User:Gaydenver / User:JB50000, so I've blocked him accordingly. Spellcast (talk) 19:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think it will come as a surprise that I totally agree with that assessment. DD2K (talk) 20:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Hasn't Obama self-identified as a Christian since at least as far back as when people started claiming he was Muslim (i.e., before the Wright hoopla)? Can't someone self-identify their own darn religion? I don't see why this is a big issue. Barring some unusual circumstance, he should be called whatever religion he calls himself: in this case, Christian.LedRush (talk) 21:57, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think it will come as a surprise that I totally agree with that assessment. DD2K (talk) 20:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- I've had this discussion watched for some time, and I agree that User:Judith Merrick is another likely sock of User:Gaydenver / User:JB50000, so I've blocked him accordingly. Spellcast (talk) 19:41, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
- Modocc isn't even saying that, he specifically stated at the beginning of his post that "Christianity is accurate and we shouldn't be more precise or detailed than that at this time without additional reliable sources". The editor(Judith Merrick that makes these leaps into "consensus" by completely ignoring real consensus does the same things over and over. The same exact leaps and muddying of issues that JB50000 had done over and over. I tried pointing that out in an official manner, and let the results be what they were. But this is just ridiculous. DD2K (talk) 00:49, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Accuracy of Being Listed as African American
Question asked and answered - This is not the best forum to discuss the merits of racial identification. |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
How come the article lists Barack Obama as the first African American president? Is it not more accurate to state that he is the first president of mixed race? If one may say "He is first African American President," is it not equally valid to say "He is the 44th White American president"? Why is his white heritage blatantly ignored? It is simply unfair to not acknowledge his white ancestry, given he is equally as "white" as he is "black." Onixz100 (talk) 02:08, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
A reminder: this is not the place for continuing discussion of the relative merits of being considered African American or anything else - the only thing relevant here is DD2K's correct point that we go by what reliable sources say. And the article does, of course, make clear exactly who his parents and grandparents were. Tvoz/talk 16:51, 8 April 2010 (UTC) He is the 6th, yes i said 6th mixed president. "The only difference between Obama and these former presidents is that none of their family histories were fully acknowledged by others" http://diversityinc.com/content/1757/article/1461/. just because he is the first to proclaim his african decent does not mean he is fully black. as we all know his mother is WHITE, yes i said WHITE. It should read something different than what it it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Scootnasty (talk • contribs) 23:39, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
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A couple comments
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
CitizenshipIn regards to Wikipedias answer "The controversy over his eligibility, citizenship, birth certificate etc is currently a fairly minor issue in overall terms, and has had no significant legal or mainstream political impact. It is therefore not currently appropriate for inclusion in an overview article". The president of the United States Of America is supposed to be an american born citizen. If the president was indeed born in Kenya wouldn't this create a "significant legal or mainstream political impact"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.4.52.129 (talk) 23:21, 8 April 2010 (UTC)
Ties to Rules for Radicals by Saul AlinskyWhere are the ties to Saul Alinsky?? You mention George W. Bush as a member of the Skulls and Bones society. Don't you think people might want to understand WHERE obama got his radical views? One of Obama's early mentors in the Alinsky method, Mike Kruglik, would later say the following about Obama:
For several years, Obama himself taught workshops on the Alinsky method. Also, beginning in the mid-1980s, Obama worked with ACORN, the Alinskyite grassroots political organization that grew out of George Wiley's National Welfare Rights Organization (NWRO). Can we have some honest accounting of this guy? http://www.discoverthenetworks.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=2314 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Poppakap (talk • contribs) 01:50, 9 April 2010 (UTC) |
Guantanamo Bay
I may have missed it but nowhere in the article does it mention that Obama failed to close Guantanamo down by his self-set deadline. I feel this is notable enough to be included under foreign policy. However, as a new user I did not want to do this in case I was breaking a rule/repeating. I do not have an anti-Obama bias but I feel this is notable. Thanks. Jamioe (talk) 15:43, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
- Already addressed at Presidency of Barack Obama#Guantánamo Bay detention camp. Tarc (talk) 15:55, 9 April 2010 (UTC)
Why were the Presidential Styles of Barack Obama removed?
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I look forward to hearing something. The Mysterious El Willstro (talk) 07:19, 10 April 2010 (UTC)
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Older Name
There are [4] [5] multiple (there are many more) valid, reputable sources that acknowledge that President Obama used the name Barry Soetoro when he was a youth in Indonesia, and more than just a nickname, but a name he was registered for school as. Suppressing the fact that he was known as a different name at one point is disingenuous and needs to stop. The sources are there. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 18:39, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- What are you bringing to the table that hasn't already been discussed in the past, e.g. Talk:Barack_Obama/Archive_69#Childhood_use_of_stepfather.27s_surname ? Tarc (talk) 18:49, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- If you would have stopped trying to change the wording to make it seem like Obama was "known by everyone" by the name you are trying to add, and make it as if it is something it is not, there wouldn't have been a problem. But when you make edits like these(1,2), (changing the original wording) and with edit summaries that disregard the truth and try to provoke, it makes keeping the little tidbit in the articles not worth the trouble. The sources stated exactly what you purposely removed and yet you took the wording out to fit your own preconceived beliefs on the issue. So I would say just keep it out now. DD2K (talk) 19:04, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- (note that Erroneuz1 is currently blocked but we can take that up when he/she returns) The earlier discussion petered out without reaching a consensus to include the old nickname. Frankly, I'm not sure as a question of fact (in other words, information of due weight verified by reliable sources) whether Obama really was called that in any significant way, and whether it matters enough to mention here. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't, but to support it I'd need to see some good sources. You'll see in my last post to that old thread[6] that I asked two questions - is it for real, and if so is it significant enough to be worth mentioning. Both need reliable sources on point. A source that merely notes that he had that name on a school transcript, or his father/mother used it, doesn't show the relevance or importance. It leaves it for us to connect the dots by arguing from our own knowledge about how nicknames and government paperwork work, or sources irrelevant to Obama, which is something we can't do. The fact that the name is more common among the fringe-y conspiracy theorists and detractors is a red flag that urges extra caution here. It's not fair to accuse editors of promoting an agenda, or to assume it's not true just because his opponents repeat it... it just means we should take extra caution to see if this is a real thing like his middle name being Hussein, or some trumped up nonsense like saying that he is a closet Muslim. - Wikidemon (talk) 19:30, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- I would say I totally agree. Even though I edited the portion that included the name, I felt it was a borderline WP:UNDUE entry. The user that started this thread, and altered the entry, claims that it's not clear that Obama was using his family given nickname and his father's surname, or that he was known to "playmates and in school" by that name. Well, if that's not clear than it's better to leave it out until it is. It's not noteworthy enough to have as a red flag for the fringe to pile on. DD2K (talk) 19:38, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- Excuse me, I found the other edits 'disregarded' the truth DD2K. The TIME source says 'Millions of Indonesians' - millions - not just 'playmates' or people at school. The other edit says the name was a 'combination' of a nickname and surname - this is Original Research. The actual 'origin' of the name 'Barry Soetoro' is unknown. The articles never explain that, thus it is invalid information and should not be included. I have no preconceived beliefs, I've found a great number of sources report that he went by this name as a youth, (in fact, here's a photo of the aforementioned document from one of the sources that was released by the AP in 2007 [7]) and think it's a pertinent piece of information for the article. When you're registered for school under a certain name, it is more than just a nickname. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 19:44, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree. Information on the name Barry Soetoro should remain. Qwerta369 (talk) 19:55, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- As I said in the previous discussion, I don't see what this trivial bit of information adds to the overall BLP. I'm in favor of its exclusion. Dayewalker (talk) 19:57, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think it adds significant value either. DD2K's current mention of it on the "Early Life" page is well placed, reasonably weighted, and sufficient. PhGustaf (talk) 20:02, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- At the very least, it is an interesting little fact of the president's early life. Why oppose its inclusion? Qwerta369 (talk) 20:49, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- I can find at least two solid NYT cites saying that Obama doesn't like beets. That's an interesting little fact, too. Should we put it in? PhGustaf (talk) 01:00, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- At the very least, it is an interesting little fact of the president's early life. Why oppose its inclusion? Qwerta369 (talk) 20:49, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- I don't think it adds significant value either. DD2K's current mention of it on the "Early Life" page is well placed, reasonably weighted, and sufficient. PhGustaf (talk) 20:02, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- As I said in the previous discussion, I don't see what this trivial bit of information adds to the overall BLP. I'm in favor of its exclusion. Dayewalker (talk) 19:57, 14 April 2010 (UTC)
- You've got to be kidding me. Are you trying to tell me that you don't understand the difference between the Indonesian people regarding him by that name in the present day, and when he was six years old? Do you believe that a six year old suddenly changed his name by himself and "millions" of Indonesians suddenly knew him by that name? Your posts are precisely the reason why this entry is now removed. There is an agenda here being pushed by you, and the entry is undue weight making it not worth the trouble. The sources stated that his step-father signed him up under that name at a school, his family gave him the nickname "Barry", and that his playmates regarded him as such. If you want to make that into something different, I doubt you will find much support in any of the Obama articles. In my opinion, you've proven that you have some kind of agenda and your edits on Obama articles should not be met with good faith. DD2K (talk) 20:02, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- I have no agenda, and wish you would stop projecting your own personal agenda onto me. I have not misrepresented any of the information from the source material, others are making that into something different. It is obvious you and I disagree on the inclusion of this information, and a 3rd party and/or others need to voice their opinion. DD2K opposes, I favor. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 20:45, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think it is obvious that many editors have rejected what you wish to add this this and other articles on the same topic. Not just one. Tarc (talk) 22:15, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm not seeing it, and am still awaiting moderator intervention. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 07:01, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- We don't have "moderators". Content is determined by what we call consensus here; unless you can get consensus for the language you want, it won't be included. --jpgordon::==( o ) 07:06, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- The discussion has reached a dead point. We have moderators, they're called administrators. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 18:36, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- Admins aren't moderators. Everyone's opinion counts towards a consensus. Dayewalker (talk) 18:43, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- Problem is, I'm inclined to believe that those who disagree with changes to a politician's page are likely biased. Moderation is needed. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 01:27, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, however, moderation is going on right now on this page. All editors are allowed to express their opinions on topics to try and form consensus. Any admin will tell you they're just like every other editor, except they have some extra buttons. Their opinion is worth the same as a non-admin, it's all just discussion. Dayewalker (talk) 01:40, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- Unfortunately, you can't accurately consider the opinions of those who are biased as neutral moderation Dayewalker. So again, some form of moderation is necessary here. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 04:38, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- You're certainly entitled to your own opinion, however, moderation is going on right now on this page. All editors are allowed to express their opinions on topics to try and form consensus. Any admin will tell you they're just like every other editor, except they have some extra buttons. Their opinion is worth the same as a non-admin, it's all just discussion. Dayewalker (talk) 01:40, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- Problem is, I'm inclined to believe that those who disagree with changes to a politician's page are likely biased. Moderation is needed. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 01:27, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- Admins aren't moderators. Everyone's opinion counts towards a consensus. Dayewalker (talk) 18:43, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- The discussion has reached a dead point. We have moderators, they're called administrators. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 18:36, 18 April 2010 (UTC)
- We don't have "moderators". Content is determined by what we call consensus here; unless you can get consensus for the language you want, it won't be included. --jpgordon::==( o ) 07:06, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- Sorry, I'm not seeing it, and am still awaiting moderator intervention. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 07:01, 17 April 2010 (UTC)
- I think it is obvious that many editors have rejected what you wish to add this this and other articles on the same topic. Not just one. Tarc (talk) 22:15, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- I have no agenda, and wish you would stop projecting your own personal agenda onto me. I have not misrepresented any of the information from the source material, others are making that into something different. It is obvious you and I disagree on the inclusion of this information, and a 3rd party and/or others need to voice their opinion. DD2K opposes, I favor. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 20:45, 15 April 2010 (UTC)
You can't just say editors are "biased" and refuse to acknolwedge a consensus. Consensus is pretty clear here, no single admin is going to come in and "moderate" this to your liking against consensus (unless that consensus were in violation of policy, which it isn't). If you disagree, open an request for comment for further opinion. Dayewalker (talk) 05:01, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- Indeed. Erroneuz, please read consensus to see how editing works here. When there is truly an editing impasse, there are other avenues available for resolution such as mediation, but that is more for when somewhat equal numbers of editors on either side need a 3rd party to discuss a resolution. This is a one-to-many situation. Tarc (talk) 11:52, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
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Dispute between myself and DD2K in regards to the inclusion of sourced material in this article. -- Erroneuz1 (talk) 19:14, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- You should quit calling this just a dispute between two people and referencing only me. At least five other editors have objected to your edit and made it clear that they are against the inclusion. Even though you were blocked from editing, you were obviously reading this section. Ignoring consensus and misstating the facts is not a good way to have any kind of rational discussion. DD2K (talk) 19:43, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
- I agree with the clear and overwhelming census. The information is far too trivial to be worth adding. It was never his legal name. Should we go through and find every possible nickname a President once had as a child and include it? It's silly and meaningless.
Stimulus Act
Under economics it is mentioned that the ARRA gave money for education and infrastructure, but it leaves out the VA. The ARRA allocated a large sum of money for the VA for much needed facility renovation. Is there any way that can be included? --152.131.9.132 (talk) 20:56, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
- Maybe I'm misunderstanding your point, but wouldn't facility renovation fall under infrastructure? It also seems there's a limit to how detailed this article – as opposed to the Presidency article – should be about specific Acts. What phrasing would you propose? Fat&Happy (talk) 21:11, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
Regarding the actual birthplace of President Obama
We're not dealing with birther conspiracies day in and day out. Consult the FAQ, pls. Tarc (talk) 22:38, 16 April 2010 (UTC) |
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it. |
It is reported that Kenyan government officials have recently declared that President Obama is actually born in Kenya. According to an article at WorldNetDaily [8], a member of the Kenyan Parliament named James Orengo said in March 2010, "How could a young man born here in Kenya, who is not even a native American, become the president of America? Millie Odhiambo, another member of Kenya's parliament, even declared, "The president-elect, Mr. Obama, is a son of the soil of this country." Also, a YouTube video [9] showed First Lady Michelle Obama Michelle Obama saying that her husband's "... home country was in Kenya...." I do not want to stir up more controversy regarding this issue, but I believe this new discovery deserves some critical attention. Whaley5000 (talk) 22:29, 16 April 2010 (UTC)
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Obama-Netanyahu East Jerusalem disagreement
I undid an edit by Wikifan12345 that included a link to Haaretz that had nothing to do with the issue and to the Jerusalem Post that makes it seem as if building settlements in East Jerusalem is no big deal. Now, I am almost always "pro-Israeli", but I know this is a highly contentious issue and the UN resolutions and recognized borders come into play here. I don't want this to turn into an Israeli-Palestinian battleground, so it's best to leave the language as it was and not add to it with views from all sides. Perhaps if the current language is not agreeable to everyone, someone can suggest something else. DD2K (talk) 14:20, 19 April 2010 (UTC)
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