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June 14

Elf workshop in movie

There was a cartoon movie that had an elf trapped in some cabin with a loose screen door that sad something like door of certain doom. The elf couldn't leave because he was told if he goes though the door (which is barely hanging on) he will surely die. But it is only his belief and fear that keeps him in the cabin/workshop. I cannot think of the name of this movie. Please help 98.20.140.74 (talk) 11:37, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

[Query duplicated on the Ents Desk, where perhaps it would be more appropriately addressed.]

OP, please don't post a question on multiple desks: it may cause unnecessary duplication of effort on the part of we (entirely volunteer) answerers and may also confuse you if applicable but different answers wind up in two (or more) different places. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 84.21.143.150 (talk) 13:02, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Bound Delegates

In the Republican presidential primaries delegates are described as "bound" and required to vote for a candidate. What happens if the delegate does not vote as he or she is "bound" and votes for someone else instead? What kind of penalty is there? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.20.140.74 (talk) 11:41, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

There are fantastically strong pressures to vote as you are pledged in the party convention. Many delegates to the convention are often young party hopefuls who are looking to run for office in the future, and people who have a reputation for not towing the party line don't get the support of the party if they want to run for office. --Jayron32 11:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

It's hard to find any information about this that isn't written by diehard Ron Paul fans, but from what I've heard, some states have laws that require the delegates to vote in accordance with the primaries, but these are trumped by the Republican Party's rules, which say the delegates can vote for whoever they want. I think I remember reading that there was some kind of court case about this? 130.88.99.231 (talk) 13:53, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

If you have the patience to dig through the 84 page pdf of the filing, here's the court case I think you're talking about, which is an active lawsuit seeking to free the bound delegates' votes, as far as I can make sense of it (IANAL). http://wilco287.com/documents/1_COMPLAINT_SACV-12-00927-DOCJPRx.pdf The original question about what penalties exist is a good one, but I have no idea if it's at all consistent: this may well be a case where each of the 50+ party rules (states plus D.C. and territories) has its own set of bylaws, some of which make penalties explicit and some do not. I know that's the case for faithless electors: that is, some states impose legal penalties on people miscasting votes, but others do not. Obviously none of this is especially helpful. :-) Jwrosenzweig (talk) 03:19, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

What is the relationship between Requerimiento to book of Deuteronomy?

What is the relationship between Requerimiento to book of Deuteronomy?--82.81.86.85 (talk) 12:40, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

What makes you think there is a relationship between the two? I can't think of any direct connection. - Lindert (talk) 12:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

You can read the text for yourself at Requerimiento. It's far more about [a twisted version of] the New Testament than the Old. If it has to be the OT, I'd see more parallels with the book of Joshua, but even that's pretty far-fetched. Is this a homework question or a quiz question? --Dweller (talk) 13:00, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

NB the last two bulletpoints are a little reminiscent of the style of the blessings and curses, outlined in the Old Testament, towards the end of the book of... Leviticus. See Bechukotai#Blessings_and_curses. --Dweller (talk) 13:10, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

yes i done hw - the teacher ask about tradition and i wrote about Dawah ; he wrote that also i need to write about Deuteronomy - i didnt find about it - so i hoped that someone tell me a source...--84.110.185.226 (talk) 16:37, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, your teacher has baffled us. Perhaps he will be mollified by you saying you couldn't find anything on Deuteronomy, but here's some links with Leviticus and Joshua. --Dweller (talk) 19:01, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

"Windows service center" scam

Do we have an article on the "Windows service center" scam? Blueboar (talk) 13:13, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I doubt it. It doesn't sound notable enough for its own article. --Tango (talk) 17:31, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, do we have anything on it in some other article (say a broader article on telephone/computer scams)? Blueboar (talk) 23:34, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

A simple wikipedia search [1] for 'service centre scam' found Virus hoax which does mention the scam in the Virus hoax#Telephone scam section. The section could use some work as it gives a specific introduction message from the scammers whereas unsurprisingly the precise message varies. Nil Einne (talk) 04:55, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

thanks... that is exactly what I was looking for. I'll try to improve the section in question (and add some additional sources as well). Blueboar (talk) 11:38, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Art history & Francis Bacon

In New Atlantis(written in 1623) Francis Bacon describes a seal on a message: "This scroll was signed with a stamp of cherubim: wings, not spread, but hanging downwards; and by them a cross." Does anyone know of any representations of cherubim with downward-hanging wings? Or what the significance of downward facing wings would be? In general, I would helped by anyone who could point me towards any collections of 17th-century European cherub iconography (or collections that would include such collections). I'm guessing there might be some overlap with alchemical / quasi-occult imagery (e.g., the rosy cross, the color scheme blue-yellow-red etc.). Maybe a dictionary of alchemical symbology would be helpful? Any pertinent info is greatly appreciated! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.32.190.71 (talk) 17:55, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know whether there may be a link with the image of a specific cherub - Cupid - with downward-hanging or drooping wings, signifying grief? There's a fairly well-known reference to this in Ovid's Amores, Book III Elegy IX, Elegy to the Dead Tibellus: "See, how he goes sadly with drooping wings" (translated here). Nahum Tate's libretto for Purcell's Dido and Aeneas (pre-1688) uses the same imagery: "With drooping wings ye Cupids come / To scatter roses on her tomb". Karenjc 18:22, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Interesting! I'm guessing it's not a specific reference to Cupid, nor is it supposed to be evocative of sadness, but cross references to the classics like this are just the sort of thing I'm looking for. "Downward" suggests "subdued" but "subdued" has an ambiguous emotive valence--might be "sad" might be "humble". This would be a little more clear from the context of New Atlantis--a shipwrecked crew finds themselves before the Atlantians, the sign is supposed to be a reassuring symbol of some kind of enlightened or esoteric Christianity. --OP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 99.32.190.71 (talk) 19:03, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Is there a relation to the seraphim with two of their wings covering their feet. Rmhermen (talk) 19:16, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

The cherubim on the Ark of the Covenant, according to Jewish tradition, would move according to how pleased or otherwise God was with the Israelites. To the best of my recall, this involved them turning to face inwards/outwards. Here comes the OR: Bacon's seal may have followed a tradition whereby their wings [also?] moved? In which case, it's your guess as to whether downwards is pleased or displeased... I'd go with the latter. --Dweller (talk) 21:23, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

Puzzling English inscription

I'm wondering if there is anybody there who can help me understand an inscription I saw yesterday (I wasn't sure whether here or the Language desk would be better, but I've plumped for here.

Two halves of the inscription at East Riddlesden Hall

The inscription is over the fireplace in the Drawing Room at East Riddlesden Hall. I've taken close-ups of the two sides of the inscription: you can just about see how they fit together in this picture.

The left hand side, which is neat, evenly cut, and clear, says "16" above and "THEY MAIDES OF" below (the fuzziness is an artifact of my camera-work). The right-hand side is uneven, of varying depths (parts of it are no more than scratched) and appears to say "48" above and "COIHN . INA :" below.

My question of course was, What does it mean? The guidebook says that "COIHN" is a spelling of "COIGN", an old word for cornerstone, and that the inscription is a reference to Psalm 144:12: "that our daughters may be as corner stones". (There is another suggestion in the guidebook, which unfortunately I have not remembered).

I find this suggestion deeply unsatisfactory, for the following reasons:

• The right hand side of the inscription is uneven, varying in depth (some parts only scratched - including the '8' above), and contains what looks like an unfinished letter between the two words. The two letters "N" are executed very differently, and the right stroke of the first is not vertical, while the cross stroke of the second is only scratched. Also, the beginning of the inscription starts right at the edge of the panel, but the end does not go anywhere near the edge. I believe that most or all of the right hand side was executed in quite different circumstances: by a different person, or at a different time. My suspicion is that it was begun, and left unfinished, and somebody later added letters to it, probably with no interest in the originally intended text.
• I have never encountered the spelling "They" meaning "the". The OED does list it, but only from the 15th century. The first half of the inscription is so carefully cut, that I doubt it was a mistake. I think it means "they", and guess that the intended structure was of the form "They maids of (something) are".
• The guidebook makes no attempt to address the word "INA", which is fairly clear, except for the diagonal stroke of the "N". (The "A" is of the same design as in the left hand side, but it is smaller and less neat).
• The OED does not list the spelling "coihn" at all. One of the meanings of "coign" is (as an alternative spelling of "quoin") indeed "A corner-stone; a projecting corner or angle of a building." - but that full definition, and all the examples, suggest that it has only the geometric or architectural sense of "cornerstone", not the symbolic sense.
• In any case, I'm not convinced the the word does read "COIHN", as the cross-bar of the "H" is only scratched.

This is as far as I've got. Does anybody have any ideas what the inscription might have been intended to read? --ColinFine (talk) 20:50, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

1648 looks like a year, so the OED saying the spelling is 15th century isn't too far off (religious stuff is often done in dated language). Maides is an old spelling of maids or maidens (ie. young women or daughters), which is consistent with the psalm. If the engraving really is nearly 400 years old, then it could be worn down enough in places so that it looks like just a scratch. Spelling in 1648 wasn't particularly consistent, so the odd spelling of coign isn't surprising. I'm not sure about INA... The guidebook's explanation seems plausible. --Tango (talk) 21:36, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

The INA may be a Latin abbreviation. Something like in nomen aeternum perhaps. Rmhermen (talk) 00:14, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

According to our article on the house, it was reconstructed in 1648. The variable lettering and depth of carving may be down to two different people working on the two sections of lettering simultaneously, one of whom did a far better job of it. I'd guess that the guidebook explanation of what it means is going to be more academically rigorous than anything we can come up with. --Dweller (talk) 07:33, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

1648 is certainly a year, and I took that bit as obvious. The OED lists "they" for "the" as C15, not even C16: this is certainly C17. The engraving isn't "worn down": I rubbed my finger over it and parts of it are deep and parts aren't. The spelling of coign is indeed possible, but as I say the OED does not even list that as a recorded spelling. I don't believe that the explanation in the guidebook is any more than a guess, on the basis of the one clear word "maides" and a dubious reading of a dubious spelling of a word which only dubiously has the claimed meaning.

INA as a Latin abbreviation is the most plausible suggestion for it so far, but not impressively plausible: "The(y) maides of coign in nomine aeterno" (more likely to be ablative) doesn't really seem to make any sense to me. --ColinFine (talk) 09:49, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

One of the definitions the OED gives for "they" is 5. As demonstrative adj. = those II. 2, 4; but often in weaker sense, = the (pl.). Now dial (In the Sc. quots. perh. meant for þa, tha, mod.Sc. thae.) a. Qualifying a n. in the nominative case. Examples are given ranging from the 13th to the 19th century, so that is a possibility I think.

Looking at it, I'm seeing "COWN?INA", with the ? being either a very badly executed letter, comma, space, or perhaps some pre-existing defect in the stone that the inscriber skipped over. Then "They maides of Cown?ina" would refer to some place name somewhere. Is there any plausible such place? Wnt (talk) 12:00, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

The Hall is in Keighley, which, according to our article, derives from "Cyhha's farm" and was called "Cichhelai" in Domesday. Any help? --Dweller (talk) 12:48, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, I see that's near Colne. Any chance this had a different spelling back then? Hmmm, then again I also see a "Cowling (disambiguation)" nearby on the Google map, [2] Wnt (talk) 13:27, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

It could have been a pun, taking a Biblical quote and giving it a local twist. Puns were popular at the time. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:41, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

June 15

Thinking of a police incident

The South Park "4th Grade" opening includes this scene. It reminds me of an real police event involving a child; does anyone know what it was? Thanks! -- Tohler (talk) 01:01, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I think you're thinking of a photo in Elián González affair, but this is what Cecil Adams might deem as "no longer weird". It can be a lot worse. See Death of Aiyana Jones^[3] Wnt (talk) 01:47, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

By "Cecil Adams" did you mean Chuck Shepherd? —Tamfang (talk) 05:05, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Indeed, it's from the episode Quintuplets 2000. That scene was based on a famous picture from the real life case, and the episode came out in the same week. It was an impressive demonstration of South Park's ability to put together an episode quickly, allowing references to very recent events. 98.226.12.79 (talk) 23:01, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Lost compositions by Michael Haydn

List of compositions by Michael Haydn lists twenty compositions that have been lost in all but name, including Die Schuldigkeit des ersten Gebots, which survives although without the portion he composed. Is such a high number of known losses common for composers of the period? I'm surprised, as I figured that well-known composers' works would survive and lesser-known composers' works wouldn't even survive in name. Nyttend (talk) 12:21, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Twenty works out of a list of that size is not really a high proportion, I'd say. In general, it would have been relatively easy for operatic and sacred works of the period to get lost. Since those works were written for performances at specific institutions, rather than for print publication, there would often have been only one or two sets of handwritten copies, and those might then be left either in the hands of the composer or in the archive of the church or theater in question – where they could easily get forgotten or misplaced, unless the place was particularly well organized or it was a particularly high profile work. A work like Die Schuldigkeit des ersten Gebots was probably a rather routine event, and if only the parts written by young Mozart were saved, my guess is it was because his dad made a point of keeping his personal archive of what his prodigy son produced. Fut.Perf. ☼ 16:39, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Book translation

This is more miscellaneous, really, but I chose here. Is there a good article source here that will lead me to info on what, if any, languages a book is available in? I suppose wikipedia ref may not be best immediate start, but it's habit a bit and I figure if there is not a good article this question might prompt it. Thanks for reply.Julzes (talk) 13:02, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

You could use the Library of Congress to search for all the editions of a book, including translations. Itsmejudith (talk) 18:45, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

You can use WorldCat (it is a union catalog of thousands of libraries around the world). Once you search and find the book, click on "view all editions and formats" link. --Meskeremg (talk) 04:28, 17 June 2012 (UTC) Virtual Reference Librarian at http://www.asknowtexas.org

The Body of the Conquistador, If You Eat Their Food. . . by Rebecca Earle

Am I right? Rebecca does not believe that the food and the climate (or at least only food) led to the growth of race theory? --84.110.185.226 (talk) 16:47, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know this book specifically, but concern over eating another culture's food goes back at least 1000 years before the conquistadors. Late-Roman Christians were forbidden (in canon law, if not in practise) from eating Jewish food. The conquistadors would have known the same prohibition against eating with Muslims (I assume Earle must mention this in the book). Adam Bishop (talk) 06:36, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople

How is the Ecumenical Patriarch of Constantinople elected? Is it only Turkish Greek bishops that are allowed to vote for the next Patriarch or does all Greek Orthodox bishops regardless of nationality? How is the Patriarchate going to survive if only Turkish citizens are allowed to be elected when Turkey's Greek community is on the verge of extinction since the population exchange in the 1920s? Will Turkey amend this law in the future? Is there any discussion about creating an independent state from the Fener district in Istanbul much like the Vatican in Italy?--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 20:49, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

The patriarch is elected by the Synod of his church, i.e. of the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople. That article has some information about the composition of the synod; it comprises some members from the expatriate churches in western Europe and America too. The article has some half-sourced hints that there might be a conflict over these members, but I couldn't tell you more about that. The problem that the patriarch himself has to be a Turkish citizen is widely reported to be a serious problem for the future, and I am not aware of any changes in this. An independent political status for the Fener seems quite out of the question – the Turkish state would certainly meet any such initiative as nothing less than high treason, and within the Orthodox church there is no tradition favouring any such arrangement (indeed, it is a long-standing point of criticism upheld by Orthodox voices against the Roman Catholic church that it betrayed the true role of the church by assuming political power.) Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:39, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

Why is there so much religious restriction on the Patriarchate by secular Turkey? Under the current laws, the patriarch has to be a Turkish citizen, the Turkish government can veto a candidate and the Turkish government doesn't recognize him as head of the Orthodox Church outside of Turkey. Isn't some of these laws pushing a bit on religious oppression? I'm not familiar with Turkey's current political situation but isn't this a bit much.--Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 02:15, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Turkey has been violating its 1920's treaty obligations pretty much since 1955, so why change now... AnonMoos (talk) 05:48, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Turkey may be officially secular, but it is still an almost exclusively Muslim country, so the concerns of the Patriarchate rank low. More importantly, however, the Patriarchate is still seen through the lens of Greek-Turkish antagonism, as a potential agent of Greek interests, as a reminder of Istanbul's non-Turkish heritage, as a "foreign" presence on Turkish soil and as an excuse for foreigners to meddle with Turkish affairs, as it was in late Ottoman times. This is coupled with distorted view of the Patriarchate's actual role in Greek nationalism (if anything, the patriarchal establishment opposed the rise of nationalism among Greeks as elsewhere, clearly seeing that this would diminish its own control over the Orthodox of the Balkans), but the Turkish security establishment has a regular phobia with partition plans for Turkey. They'd definitely prefer it to be moved away, perhaps to Mt. Athos. Ironically, under the mildly Islamist AKP the pressure may ease, as it purports to follow Ottoman models (though there's nothing tangible so far). At any rate, the common riposte I've read regarding the possibility of a vacancy is that the requirement is that the Patriarch be a Turkish citizen, not necessarily born in Turkey... Constantine ✍ 21:42, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Greeks in Turkey

Has Turkey done anything to relax the laws on the Greeks in their country? Is Greek immigration allowed? Greeks in Turkey talks about the dying community and compensation but nothing about immigration. --Queen Elizabeth II's Little Spy (talk) 20:49, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

There has reportedly been a notable trend in the last two or three years, due to the Greek economic crisis and simultaneous boom in Turkey, for young Greeks to move to Turkey for work, especially to Istanbul, though most of them certainly don't mean to stay permanently, and this work migration will hardly involve taking Turkish citizenship. As far as I know, there are no particular laws that Turkey would have to relax first in order for it to be possible for Greeks to immigrate. There never was a law saying that Greeks cannot live in Turkey or become Turkish citizens in principle – the 1923 population exchange merely meant that those that had been citizens prior to that time were thrown out. Immigration or naturalization of Greek citizens today would presumably be subject merely to Turkey's general immigration laws, just the same as for citizens of other countries. Fut.Perf. ☼ 22:28, 15 June 2012 (UTC)

June 16

When were women allowed to handle their own bank account?

In the novel Affinity (novel), set in Victorian England of the 1870s, the heroine of the novel, and unmarried middle class women in her 30s, are not legally allowed to take out her own money from her own bank account without a signed approval from her brother (her father is dead) which she are required to show to the bank staff before they give her the money. Is this historically correct? That seem to indicate, that unmarried adult women in Victorian England were minors, as an adult person should be allowed to handle their own money as they see fit. So my question is: was this historically correct, and it so, when were adult unmarried women allowed to handle their own bank accounts without the signature of a male guardian? Thank you.--Aciram (talk) 07:31, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

It could be correct if her brother has been named as a trustee of a fortune she inherited which had legal conditions attached to it. It is not true if she owned the money without any such restrictions. (Under coverture, an unmarried woman over the age of 21 is "feme sole".) But her brother would not legally be her "guardian" unless she has been found incompetent in some way (being a trustee of money and a guardian of a person are two different things). AnonMoos (talk) 09:42, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

I just briefly scanned my copy of the novel. It clearly states that the heroine's money - her inheritance from her father - is hers, but it is held in trusteeship for her by her brother. This is in the section headed 24 December 1874 (pp. 291-4 of the 2000 Virago paperback edition) as the novel mainly takes the form of a diary. Her brother also states the money is hers "unless, of course [...] you marry", which is in keeping with the information in the Married Women's Property Act 1870 article which states that it only applied to property earned or (some property) inherited during marriage and that property owned at the time of marriage still became the husband's property. Valiantis (talk) 23:05, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

The Married Women's Property Act 1870 allowed women to have control of their own money, and further gains were made by the Married Women's Property Act 1882. So the novel may well be historically inaccurate, but only by a few years. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:38, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

However, the various Married Women's property acts predominantly dealt with the situation of a marred woman under coverture, while the question asks about an unmarried woman who is not under coverture. AnonMoos (talk) 09:44, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

Also the question specifies a woman without specifying substantive or merely formal access; and, without specifying a (presumed?) bourgeois class. In actuality, British women gained substantive access to banking depending on their family and class circumstances across the 19th and 20th century. (No rape in marriage? How on earth can you claim that's substantive access). Fifelfoo (talk) 10:07, 16 June 2012 (UTC)

June 17

Rules for Unclaimed Nobel Prizes

Recently, Aung San Suu Kyi claimed her 1991 Nobel Peace Prize, which was originally accepted by her family members. This raises an interesting question: if the individual's close friends & family members are also unavailable to accept the prize (as in the case of Liu Xiaobo), is it still possible to claim the prize in the future when the individual gains the opportunity to do so? 98.116.65.50 (talk) 05:29, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, the Nobel Prize committee can decide to do whatever they like in any particular situation. However, there is already a precedent in the form of Boris Pasternak, who was awarded the Nobel Prize in Literature in 1958 but declined (or was unable) to travel. He died in 1960, but his son collected the award on his behalf in 1989. So it is definitely possible to defer the presentation of a Nobel Prize. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 13:13, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Cottingham manor

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=-xgHAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA189 or http://www.genuki.org.uk/big/eng/YKS/ERY/Cottingham/Cottingham92.html or http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=LYYKAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA461#v=onepage&q&f=false (and many others repeating the same information)

According to most sources the 'manor of cottingham' (Cottingham, East Riding of Yorkshire) was split into 3 (or 4) after the owner died without male heir (c.1407). I can't seem to find the correct geneology for this - I think the names of the manors listed in 19th century literature are anachronistic: eg without male issue, the lordship of Cottingham, with two thousand four hundred and sixty-six acres of land, came into possession of the Duke of Richmond, the Earl of Westmoreland and Lord Powis, who had married his three daughters, since which time the estate has been divided into three manors called Cottingham Richmond , and -there may be other errors/

I can verify as far as John, 3rd Earl of Kent then Joan of Kent. I think the next one is Thomas Holland, 2nd Earl of Kent (with daughters) followed by the childless Thomas Holland, 1st Duke of Surrey and Edmund Holland, 4th Earl of Kent but who after that (1408)?

Can anyone work out who were the three daughters, and which and which historical figures were the predecessors of the "Duke of Richmond, the Earl of Westmoreland and Lord Powis". ?

I think you're looking at Ralph de Neville, 1st Earl of Westmorland here. As the time period is around the Wars of the Roses, things were getting a little messy, not to mention the rivalry between the Nevilles and the Percys, and so it's no wonder the exact question of the succession is confused. Were the three daughters the issue of the lord of Cottingham? It's not clear from the quotation. --TammyMoet (talk) 13:02, 17 June 2012 (UTC) Further information at Baynard Castle --TammyMoet (talk) 13:04, 17 June 2012 (UTC) The Earldom of Powis appears to have been first created in 1674, so it can't be that, must be a Lord with Powis as a surname. --TammyMoet (talk) 13:23, 17 June 2012 (UTC) Maybe related to Hugh de Stafford and his family? --TammyMoet (talk) 13:28, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

(comment it should be noted that this story of daughters is often repeated in association with the legendary (and mostly untrue) tale of the burning of Baynard Castle, Cottingham - however the manor of Cottingham was split.. perhaps the details are innacurate?)

It's not clear to me either. (the 19th century sources are usually reliable - but when they are wrong they tend to be very wrong..) - my assumption is that the named earldoms (Richmond, Westmoreland, Powis) were the current (or later) titles (of the 1800s) - I think the daughters referred to must have been daughters of Thomas_Holland,_2nd_Earl_of_Kent (his sons all died, or had daughters etc) - however he had more than three daughters (the sons appear to have died out)- excluding the one who became a nun:

• Alianore Holland, Countess of March - only daughters by second marriage
• Joan Holland, probably(?) no children
• Margaret Beaufort, Countess of Somerset - many children - the first male with offspring appears to be John Beaufort, 1st Duke of Somerset whose daughter (only 1) Margaret Beaufort, Countess of Richmond and Derby married a 'Richmond' - is this the link??
• Elizabeth Holland (no article) according to the article Thomas_Holland,_2nd_Earl_of_Kent " [she] married Sir John Neville (eldest son of Ralph Neville, 1st Earl of Westmoreland" - John Neville doesn't have an article but his son was Ralph Neville, 2nd Earl of Westmorland - this one seems to make sense.
• Eleanor Holland, Countess of Salisbury - one daughter .

(To confuse things in http://list.english-heritage.org.uk/resultsingle.aspx?uid=1019823 it states "By the mid-17th century the Cottingham manors had reverted to the Crown and were then sold off by Charles I.")

(My guess, unable to VERIFY) is these were daughters refered to - I'd guess that either Alianore or Eleanor had children who (eventually) inherited the title of 'Powis'. I haven't been able to find this one. I don't really know the way to research these inheritences (or the rules of) - I suppose there must be a standard work for this sort of thing??Oranjblud (talk) 21:58, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

All my ideas for this involve subscription websites - Burke's Peerage, Ancestry both need a subscription. Ancestry is notoriously wrong too. The Society of Genealogists may be able to help but their site is subscription too (find my past). I've had a trawl through British History site to no avail, just the story repeated. If you are in the UK and can get to a library you can access Ancestry free of charge, and they should have copies of Burke's Peerage and Who Was Who. --TammyMoet (talk) 09:39, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I should be able to find Burke's and WhoWasWho in a library. I was more thinking of some sort of 'land deeds' publication, possibly governmental - but maybe what I am imagining doesn't exist for those dates (excluding a rolled up piece of parchment somewhere underneath Westminster). Burkes should be accurate - I'll try to remember to look at that.Oranjblud (talk) 11:53, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

The only other suggestion I can make is to contact the local archives, which in this case could be Hull but might well be York, as their archivists are often very knowledgable about what they have and where else you can look. I've got some excellent results by working with the archivists at Cambridge, for example. --TammyMoet (talk) 14:48, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I also recommend you try to find the relevant volume of the Victoria County History, which should give you a reliable account of who owned Cottingham and why. --Antiquary (talk) 18:34, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Unless the book has different information to the website, then it's the same story repeated. --TammyMoet (talk) 20:48, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Reincarnation

In Buddhism, can a person be reincarnated as the opposite sex? What about a different race? --108.227.31.151 (talk) 20:02, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

In Buddhism, a person can be reincarnated as a different species. Looie496 (talk) 21:03, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

In Buddhism, a person cannot be reincarnated, except where they can be. In Buddhism reincarnation exists, or doesn't exist, as the cycle of deaths and rebirths, not as personal reincarnation (except where it does). Buddhism has such a diversity of practices and beliefs you'd need to narrow this down, but as a beginner's tip, don't think of personal reincarnation, imagine more some kind of montage being. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:02, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Isn't it Hinduism that believes in individual reincarnation? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:59, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Buddhism is large, syncretic, and internally diverse. Fifelfoo (talk) 06:03, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Buddhists prefer the term "rebirth". Please see Rebirth (Buddhism).--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:45, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

There are some things that I don't understand about the whole "rebirth" thing: who decides what you are reborn as; and what does a snail need to do, to ascend to a higher form? Lay a perfect trail of slime? Plasmic Physics (talk) 00:23, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

An invisible sky father decides, of course…. Buddhism varies between a philosophy of being and a devotional religion complete with godhood. Our article Six_realms explains rebirth as if Buddhism is a devotional religion. Our article Ten_spiritual_realms explains in terms of a philosophy of being. I only feel confident describing the practice I was raised in, which is at the philosophical end. Rebirth is the continuous apparent permanence of consciousness, rebirth into a higher or lower realm is simply the change in disposition of consciousness that comes about due to desire and suffering—cf this koan. Rebirth is related to Karma_in_Buddhism as a mechanistic process of consciousness, regardless of where a particular buddhist practice sits in terms of philosophy or religiosity. Fifelfoo (talk) 01:22, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Pol Pot

He wanted to erase the history of Cambodia and rewrite it in his image. Would that count as Negationism? --Arima (talk) 22:44, 17 June 2012 (UTC)

Negationism is a historiographical concept, it is about attempts to rewrite accounts of history. Pol Pot sought to obliterate the concrete social fact of Cambodian history, he incidentally eliminated much of the intelligenstia, but his purpose wasn't to rewrite historical books and accounts. Negationism is what bad academics and state funded research bodies occasionally do. Fifelfoo (talk) 00:09, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Pol Pot tried to create a new society out of whole cloth. He did this by killing off anyone who had a say in what the former society looked like: The inteligencia, educated, teachers, doctors, etc. His goal was to kill off or drive into exile anyone except the poorest classes, so he could recreate Cambodian society as a cult of personality around himself. Many dictators strive to do this, Pol Pot was particularly brutal and deliberate and single minded about it. To put it better, which Fifelfoo does too, is that Negationism is about changing history, Pol Pot was trying to change his country's present. --Jayron32 01:31, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I was afraid that you were going to exceed me in wit with something along the lines of "Negationism is an attempt to rewrite history, usually to deny the existence of genocide. What Pol Pot did was simply genocide." Fifelfoo (talk) 02:00, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Well, that too. Couldn't have said it better myself... --Jayron32 02:02, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

June 18

Alternative voting system

Which country currently uses alternative voting system and is there a sample from the last election that took place in that country that used that system? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.31.19.124 (talk) 03:08, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I was tempted to ask "alternative to what?", but on a jackofozian caprice I plugged in alternative voting system and it redirected me to Instant-runoff voting. If that's what you're interested in, the details you're after should be there, or links to where they can be found. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 03:20, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Apparently the term "alternative vote" is the Britishism for the Australian "preferential ballot." Australia uses the preferential ballot for its lower house, the House of Representatives. Voting data is available down to the booth level from the Australian Electoral Commission's website. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:58, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Down to booth level is really good data. I thought France was good, having found the results to commune level on newspapers' websites by 10pm BST yesterday. Itsmejudith (talk) 10:32, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Full preference distributed booth data is available sometime after the election but before that parliament convenes. Booth data for "First Preferences" is available on the night, most psephologists can use booth level predictive simulations of preference flows to predict the electoral outcome of the lower house on the night. My favourite psephologist for this is Antony Green who predicted a hung parliament in 2010 on the night…he started looking cagey around 7.15 (75 minutes after polls closed in NSW), and refused to give expected national results all night—normally Green can tell you the result by 8pm. The upper house takes weeks to resolve due to sheer number of votes to count and the complexity of the count (image of actual ballot paper). Usually before parliament sits the "wonks" have done analysis on which demographics have changed their voting pattern based on booth and seat demographic alignment. Fifelfoo (talk) 11:00, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

NZ also publishes polling place level data [4]e.g. [5] except IIRC when the polling place has less then 6 voters (to preserve anonymity). However we use mixed member proportionality. I'm not sure when it becomes available. Some of our local council elections use single transferable vote (i.e. multiple winners) but I don't believe instant run-off (single winner) is used anywhere although I'm not sure. (Unlike in Australia, a STV vote it still valid even if you don't rank all possible candidates.) But local elections are by postal ballot. Edit: Guess I should have checked out the article which confirms instant-runoff is used in some councils. I believe the councils were given the option of choosing IRV/STV or FPP a while back but I'm not sure of the details. Nil Einne (talk) 15:29, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

The Libertarian Party (US) uses it. It seems most equitable. μηδείς (talk) 04:02, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

There are some failures—in terms of seat design, geographically dispersed but politically coherent voting blocs tend to be underrepresented, where as geographically coherent voting blocs tend to be overrepresented. In Australia this was viewed as a "good thing" in order to assist the rurally based anti-Labor "Country Party" (now called the Nationals). Currently this distorts the Green vote significantly, which is geographically dispersed but politically coherent. Australia seeks to redress this by suppling a second house, based on states as single multimember electorates, with single transferrable vote multimember proportional representation. Admittedly, with 6 seats per state per half-senate election, and with the Greens achieving 10% votes at the moment, the final two senate seats per state are quite interesting to observe as examples of vote transfer flows. A significant body of Australian voters follow Party advice on preference order, but a significant body rejects Party advice. Fifelfoo (talk) 04:16, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

The single transferable vote, a similar system, is used in Cambridge,_MA#City_government. Paul (Stansifer) 20:04, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Just to add to that, STV is equivalent to AV/IRV/whatever when only one candidate is to be elected. Several countries use STV and this situation can occur, for example, in by-elections, or in particularly small electoral districts. 81.98.43.107 (talk) 13:35, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Query on term for intentional celibacy philosophy adopted by scientists during The Enlightment/Scientific Revolution

Hello,

Hopefully you can help me. I'm a writer doing research for a script. During a story discussion with another writer, he'd recollected something he'd read about a type of philosophy/belief set down during the Enlightenment, specifically in the Scientific Revolution. It was a belief that adopting a life of celibacy contributed to scientific abilities/progress in the field. He couldn't place the term, nor the original author of the time. I started research, using Google, which led me here to Wikipedia, and specifically your article on the scientist/inventor Nikola Tesla. In it I found some reference to his being celibate. It didn't state his motivation, though. The only other lead in the article I could find was a reference to a time of his life when he was influenced by the Vidi philosophy (Hindu). Thinking this might lead somewhere, I followed the link to this article. I did find some useful information (brahmacharya--taking vows of celibacy for spiritual reasons; believing sex and focus on these type of relationships only can lead to materialism). This isn't quite what I'm looking for. When I went back with this information, my writer friend said this wasn't the term. What we're looking for is intentional celibacy motivated by scientific reason, not spiritual.

This search has produced little fruit and is becoming increasingly frustrating. The closest/best answer I can come up with on my own is 'sexual sublimation', hypothesised by Freud. The definition: "To divert the energy (sexual or other biological impulse) from it's immediate goal to one of a higher social, moral, or aesthetic nature or use; to make nobler or purer." I'm not sure if this is it, either. According to my colleague, this belief was set down in the Enlightenment, which was in the 18th century. Freud came up with this a century later. And now that I think of it, Tesla lived in Freud's time, as well. Did the Enlightenment extend into the 1800's?

So my question is, would anyone happen to know anything about this philosophy? Again, not spiritually motivated. And the Freud sublimation reasoning, I'm not sure about either. From what I can understand of that, the term came about because of the more rigid beliefs about sex during that time. Sex was something taboo/not openly discussed, nor expressed. So it was felt that sublimation would take care of the problem of improper sexual urges. It would benefit society more if the sexual energy of the libido were instead transferred to endeavors that would better benefit society, such as in art or the sciences. I'm unsure if this is the motivator my friend was talking about. In ways it makes sense to the objective of the character I'm writing, who is a retired physics professor. But I just can't get past the reasoning. My writer friend suggested that the practice was believed to help scientists in their abilities. It was not spiritual in nature, to avoid materialism. And it's not quite the Freud sublimation term either, because that just suggests transferring energy that was felt to be improper. I believe the philosophy I'm searching for is a celibacy motivated by the belief that it ENHANCED the scientists abilities. According to your article, this was exactly what Tesla believed/what motivated him. But it didn't state what Tesla attributed this to/a specific term. My question is, if there was a term for this, what was it?

Thank you so much for any help you can provide! Kim KrauseKkrause26 (talk) 04:19, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Nikola Tesla was notably eccentric, and may have suffered from OCD. I imagine he held a number of highly unusual beliefs. Gandalf61 (talk) 08:27, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Hm, perhaps your friend was thinking of Francis Bacons New Atlantis? The inhabitants of his scientific utopia Bensalem are apparently very chaste, though as far as I recall I don't think they are completely celibate. --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:52, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

You might compare the celibacy of Isaac Newton and Temple Grandin. Note also the latter's autism and the suggestion that Newton had Asperger's. μηδείς (talk) 16:42, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

The idea that celibacy would have not only moral enhancements but also physical and mental ones has been variously popular throughout many eras. Certainly there were those in the 17th century who thought this (e.g. Newton); there were those in the 19th century as well. The idea that seminal fluid was "vitalizing" had a lot of play in the 19th century; the work of Charles-Édouard Brown-Séquard was particularly influential. I doubt the 17th century folks thought of it in quite the same terms — it seems rather clear that Newton considered it a moral issue, not a physiological one. I don't think there's a single, well-known term for this set of beliefs, though. --Mr.98 (talk) 17:51, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

That idea is the ancient Chinese concept of qi, and it was rediscovered by Europeans in the C18. I don't have a good reference for that though and would be interested in one. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:03, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I think it's simply a rationalization for a pre-existing organic condition or personality quirk. Not that one could complain at the contributions such people make. μηδείς (talk) 06:12, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Apparently it is still common belief in modern American tv (although TV Tropes doesn't say anything about it). Most notably with the Seinfeld episode "The Abstinence", where George Costanza becomes a genius on account of sexual abstinence, while Seinfeld on the other hand becomes a moron. The same theme is sometimes being mentioned in the sitcom The Big Bang Theory. I am sure there are other examples. --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:30, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Native Hawaiian or Native American

Look at these two pictures: boy and girl and these pictures: other boy and other girl. Do they look Native Hawaiian or Native American? Does the two girls look the same except in different clothing or are the two different girls? Don't judge by textual evidence. Now after that did the photographer, as listed on the Smithsonian, Henry Wetherbee Henshaw ever went to Hawaii?--KAVEBEAR (talk) 04:56, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

They all look Native Hawaiian to me and I believe they are two different girls. I'm sorry but I haven't a clue whether the photographer went to Hawaii after taking the photos.--Jeanne Boleyn (talk) 09:23, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

All except the "other girl" look very Polynesian (I won't say "Hawaiian" if I'm ignoring textual evidence), and they're definitely two different girls. FiggyBee (talk) 10:12, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

"In December of 1894, due to failing health, Henry resigned from the Bureau and moved to the Hawaiian Islands to regain his strength. There he became known as a photographer capturing many valuable images such as the native costumes, houses, and other hard to reproduce negatives."[6] He also wrote this book at that time. FiggyBee (talk) 12:16, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Why do names of fictional characters get censored in some fictional stories?

An example from a 19th century horror story I just finished reading, 'The House and the Brain' by Edward Bulwer-Lytton:

"The house is haunted; and the old woman who kept it was found dead

in her bed, with her eyes wide open. They say the devil strangled

her."

"Pooh! You speak of Mr. J----. Is he the owner of the house?"

"Yes."

"Where does he live?"

"In G---- Street, No. --."

"What is he? In any business?"

"No, sir,--nothing particular; a single gentleman."

I gave the potboy the gratuity earned by his liberal information,

and proceeded to Mr. J---- , in G---- Street, which was close by

the street that boasted the haunted house. I was lucky enough to

find Mr. J---- at home,--an elderly man with intelligent

countenance and prepossessing manners.

It also goes on to blot out names of other characters in the story, such as the narrator's servant and a traveler he meets at a gentleman's club. I'm guessing this was for legal reasons (similar to the standard "purely coincidental" disclaimer you see written in the fine print within books and movies today), but is my assumption really 100% correct? I've also come across this phenomenon in other stories whose titles I can not recall, but I have mostly seen this in fiction written around the same era as this story (although I think I may have also seen this name-mangling pop up in a couple of short stories by Asimov from the 1950s -- but it has been a long time, thus I may be remembering incorrectly).

Oddly enough, later in the same story, a character by the name of "Mr. Richards" is explicitly introduced, with his name not blanked-out. This inconsistency is why I have doubts. --66.235.32.3 (talk) 06:49, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

It is hardly for legal reasons, but were a common trick for writers at the time to convey a feeling of realism to the story, as in "I won't divulge the name of this character or this town, because they exist in real life" (but of course they didn't). --Saddhiyama (talk) 08:54, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

(ec)The author is conveying a sense of reality and a sense of focus and urgency. By omitting the names, on the one hand he adopts a style that might be found in newspaper reports of real events, and as a side effect he communicates to the reader that he will not bother him or her with unnecessary detail. It has nothing to do with legal concerns, but is a literary device. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:06, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Reinforcing the above editors, they censored Mr. S————'s name for the same reason that fictive television blurs characters' faces, or censors words they are permitted to broadcast: an appearance of verisimilitude by mimicking artefacts of media that claim to present fact. Fifelfoo (talk) 10:22, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I always thought that it was the result of the author 'not bothering' finding a name for a minor character who would not appear again. Kafka uses this in some of his novels, at least in 'The Castle', and Dostoyevsky also does it in Crime and Punishment. I believe (can't remember) that in both cases it's done with characters who appear once, and are never heard of again. Why insult all the people who share a last name, when a simple initial can do the trick? V85 (talk) 15:39, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

It is not from laziness. Stephan Schultz's answer is correct. It is an attempt to imply (or reference others who imply) that the characters and locations are real. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:35, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

So, clearly, that strategy didn't work on me, since the characters seemed less real, than had they been given actual names. :-) V85 (talk) 19:19, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

True, but (and I'm probably labouring the obvious here) the stories were written for readers of their era used to that convention, not to someone from a different culture far in the future. "The past is another country. They do things differently there." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.109 (talk)

I just saw this in a China Miéville short story, which surprised me because I thought that that practice had died out. Supporting what folks have said above, it was the only story in the collection in which the narrator was a London-based author named "China Miéville". Paul (Stansifer) 19:51, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I'd bet good money that China is, in that story, deliberately evoking the feel of the period when the practice was common, and aiming it at a readership familiar with the practice from reading stories from the period. The New Weird movement of which he is a prominent member builds on Steampunk and plays with Penny dreadful and Gothic fiction sensibilities, so cannot be fully appreciated without a familiarity with original Victorian-era (and earlier) stylistics. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.109 (talk) 22:49, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

In a related topic, it was once fashionable to write dates in a similar manner, as in "September 1, 197-" or "January 4, 19--". Is there a general name for this literary device? I'm surprised there's no article... Matt Deres (talk) 02:27, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

If done to mimic media reporting, it is an attempt at creating verisimilitude. Syntactically it is a form of ellipsis, and the punctuation used is the em dash. FiggyBee (talk) 02:45, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

Letters of Marque

I would like to know if there is any location archiving Letters of Marque issued in Britain, specifically the Elizabethan era, where it is and if they permit access to their records.86.161.81.212 (talk) 14:05, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I suggest the first port of call is the National Archives at Kew. --TammyMoet (talk) 14:45, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

You might also get a steer from the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.197.66.109 (talk) 22:54, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Carl Sagan and sekded-ef em khetkhet

On page 39 of his work Cosmos,[7] the astronomer Carl Sagan made reference to an ancient Egyptian phrase sekded-ef em khetkhet, or "who travels backwards". It is apparently used as an epithet for Mars, describing the planet in terms of its occasional retrograde motion at opposition. There are a few other books that make reference to this, but I can't find a published paper about it. I would like to track down the original scholarly source for this phrase. Does anybody have a good suggestion? Thank you. Regards, RJH (talk) 17:42, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

The earliest reference I could find in English was R. A. Parker, "Ancient Egyptian Astronomy," Philosophical Transactions of the Royal Society of London. Series A 276, no. 1257, (1974), 51-65. It is not referenced specifically (very little is referenced specifically in the article). --Mr.98 (talk) 18:03, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I would just point out that it's apparent retrograde motion (rather than actual retrograde motion), and it's exhibited by all the planets, not only Mars.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:45, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

That's true of course, but kind of irrelevant to the question. Thank you. Regards, RJH (talk) 20:37, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

It looks like this comes from the astronomical paintings on the ceiling of the burial chamber ("Hall K") of KV17 (Seti I's tomb). A detailed description of the ceiling, with citations, starts here (see "Column 26" for the description of Mars).---Cam (talk) 19:11, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Excellent! Thank you, Cam, and you too Mr.98. Regards, RJH (talk) 20:40, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

other olympic events

apparently some of the earlier olympic gameses used to include non-sporting events, mostly artistic in nature I think, but having searched around a bit, I can find no mention of these. Did this actually happen, and if so, can anyone direct me towards a list of these events?

79.66.102.253 (talk) 20:16, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

I believe you're right but I'll leave it to others to provide the links. Meanwhile, here is the Cultural Olympiad. --TammyMoet (talk) 20:46, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

Our article on Olympic sports lists all current, discontinued, and demonstration sports. I don't see "artistic in nature" (by which I assume you mean painting, etc) events on the list, but I note that there may be some confusion due to things like "Artistic" as a subclassification of gymnastics. There are, certainly, things that might seem odd to the modern Olympic audience such as tug-of-war on the list. — Lomn 21:15, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

You are thinking of art competitions at the Olympic Games.--Cam (talk) 21:22, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

(edit conflict) You're absolutely right; there were medals awarded in architecture, literature, music, painting and sculpture at the Summer Olympics of 1912, 1920, 1924, 1928 1932, 1936 and 1948. We have an article that details the history of the art competitions at Art competitions at the Olympic Games. Interestingly, the reason for ending the competitions after 1948 was not a lack of interest, but the fact that the artists entering were overwhelmingly professionals, as opposed to the athletes who were [supposed to be] amateurs - professionalism was seen to be against the Olympic spirit. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 21:28, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

That sequence of Games, btw, may look like it has gaps, but they correspond to the Games that were cancelled due to global wars. In fact, all the Games that were held between 1912 and 1948 had these art competitions. -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 02:00, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

J. Abrial

Who was J. Abrial? The only thing I know is he was an artist of some kind in the 1840s but I can't find anything about him. Also in old engravings/lithographs what did dibt on the left mean and the place name and lith de. [different name] on the right of the image mean.--KAVEBEAR (talk) 23:11, 18 June 2012 (UTC)

He was an artist of some kind in the 1840s, and I doubt there's much more to find. "lith de." means "lithograph of" and is followed by the name and address of the printer/publisher. FiggyBee (talk) 01:28, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

June 19

Purpose of Purge of the Red Army in 1941?

What was the contemporary purpose of the Purge of the Red Army in 1941? The article doesn't say. The Masked Booby (talk) 01:30, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Purges are performed when those in power perceive a potential threat to their authority, whether real or imagined. Also, as alluded to in our article, they can blame defeats on "traitors", then execute them, so they can't tell the real reasons (incompetent leadership from those in power). StuRat (talk) 02:50, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Milovan Ðilas, amongst others, provides a generalised analysis of purges as being an element of necessarily self-discipline amongst the nomenklatura in order to place the survival of the class ahead of the survival of any specific members in an urgent battle for production. As Ðilas himself notes, this isn't necessarily bloody. Same with the studies of technical specialist purges in the 1930s at local levels. In the case of the 1941 Airforce purge, it looks to be a combination of internal power struggle within the nomenklatura combined with demonstrative executions for economic failure. Fifelfoo (talk) 03:48, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

A number of military-minded commentators have pointed out that the purges of the military from the Tukhachevsky trial (1937) to the German invasion were militarily rather counterproductive, since they eliminated many of the most able commanders, and people who had forward-looking ideas on issues such as the use of tanks in concentrated formations etc., and replaced them with people who were often afraid to take any initiative on their own without direct orders from Moscow, and who were more concerned with keeping their heads down and not rocking the boat than advocating for improvements in the Soviet military system. Stalin had a very poor record when it came to military planning (which was always subordinated to political factors and his personal whims). AnonMoos (talk) 13:29, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Is it true that France has less alcohol related problems than USA does?

In terms of drinking and driving, diseases related to alcohol and such. ScienceApe (talk) 04:04, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

In past decades, many claimed that the pattern of allowing children small sips of wine under parental supervision resulted in overall healthier attitudes towards drinking in young adults than the pattern of teenagers first indulging in alcohol furtively and illegally. More recently, there have been counter-claims that there's not a big difference in the end results. I don't know which is true... AnonMoos (talk) 04:36, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Anecdotally I can tell you that at the University I attended in the US, at least one freshman a year would die of alcohol poisoning. Yet even though the drinking age was 21 in my state, in high school we had the choice of Spain, France or the German speaking states to visit as 17 or 18 year olds for our senior trip. Parents were advised we would have access to alcohol and signed a waiver. None objected. We were largely Catholics who could drink in moderation at home on holidays. No one got drunk enough to cause an incident. My first drink was at 12 y/o and it put me to sleep in the backseat on the ride home. Usually the college kids who died did so their first time drinking. See http://www.hopenetworks.org/addiction/alcohol/Overdose_Deaths/List_of_Lost_Youth_Alcohol.htm μηδείς (talk) 06:06, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

This is one of the downsides of the US drinking age, and how it's enforced, that I've had personal experience with. I've known young people in the USA who've become dangerously ill from binge drinking, but who refused to seek assistance because they were afraid of being arrested. FiggyBee (talk) 13:07, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

According to Alcoholism, starting younger increases the risk. It's important to realize that alcoholism is basically an addiction, but not universally so. It's like some significant percentage of the public has one or more components in their physiology and/or psychology which will make them more vulnerable to this addiction. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:05, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I think the way the French drink alcohol (a bottle of wine with a meal) is healthier than in the US, where binge drinking is common. I get the impression that the French don't usually drink to get drunk, while Americans frequently do. Note, however, that some other nations are even worse in this respect. Russia comes to mind (does anybody drink vodka for the taste ?). StuRat (talk) 07:54, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I drink English vodka (Chase or Sipsmith, not Vladivar or Blavod!) for the taste. A good Russian vodka can make a serviceable cocktail, even a mostly-vodka one like a Vodka Martini - I recommend Stolichnaya.

But yes - the US does not seem to be the worst in this respect, but my own perception/experience is that the taboo about drinking, and the high minimum age, has been counter-productive. AlexTiefling (talk) 08:01, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Does vodka actually have a taste, other than that of alcohol itself? I find myself a little mystified at what people will pay for a premium vodka. If you just mixed absolute ethanol with distilled water, wouldn't that be pretty much the perfect vodka? Is this a case of five hundred still frames of Joe Biden eating a sandwich? --Trovatore (talk) 08:51, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Not all vodkas are colourless and unflavoured: many, like similar drinks from other cultures, are flavoured with fruits or other adjuncts – imported Pepper vodka had a vogue in the UK a few years ago. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 84.21.143.150 (talk) 12:09, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

(Oh, just a note in case anyone thinks, "Hey, there's a good idea!". Supposedly, lab grade absolute ethanol may contain traces of cancer-causing benzene.) --Trovatore (talk) 09:01, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Because vodka is required to be highly purified, the impurities that remain are highly detectable. My preferred sipping vodkas have faint sugary notes - presumably from the breakdown of the starch in the original brewing process. All vodkas taste quite astringent; the ones I wouldn't drink neat also have a bitter undernote. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:31, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't know much about vodka; it may be the case that exactly the right trace impurities make for a superior drink, and that is difficult to achieve. I certainly don't agree with the premise of five hundred still frames of Joe Biden eating a sandwich with regard to wine, however. Cheap wine is cheap for a reason, and that reason is usually that it tastes like cat piss or boot polish. You don't need to be a snob or a connoisseur to recognise that some things taste horrible. FiggyBee (talk) 09:23, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Comprehensive WHO figures for all countries in Europe are [8] and for the Americas [9]. The simple answer is that it depends which statistics you look at. Alcohol consumption has fallen steeply in France but is still above the level in the USA, where consumption is stable. France still has more deaths from cirrhosis of the liver. The USA has more people who abstain from alcohol, but in the USA a greater proportion of those who drink are "heavy episodic drinkers". I haven't done the calculation but it seems that more of the general population are "heavy episodic drinkers" in France. "Le binge drinking" among young people has recently been identified as a serious problem in France, leading to a ban on supermarket alcohol sales to under 18s. This followed a wave of "apéros géants", big town centre drinking parties, advertised on Facebook, and corresponding press coverage. But an international survey of young people showed that French teenagers were consuming less alcohol than before, using more cannabis than before, and less alcohol, more cannabis than in most other European countries. Itsmejudith (talk) 08:22, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

A lot of young Australians also drink with the intention of getting smashed off their faces. Just going out, having a good time, meeting some new faces, hearing some cool music, having a few drinks - but still being in a reasonably coherent state at the end of the night, seems to be too boring an idea for them to contemplate. If they don't end up at least throwing up, they think they've wasted their evening. Weird. Imagine if people at restaurants ate and ate until they vomited. What's so bad about their lives that they have to regularly obliterate all memory of it? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 08:28, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

As an adolescent of Newcastle in the 1990s, I can give you a list of what's so bad. I think mass teen alcoholism in Australia is a rational response. Fifelfoo (talk) 08:39, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Bring back the six o'clock swill. FiggyBee (talk) 09:01, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Wow. That's just further proof to this mature aged Australian that Wikipedia Has An Article On Everything! . HiLo48 (talk) 10:44, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

This area fascinates me. It seems that everyone with a prejudice can find scientific research to back up their position, whatever it is, and everyone has their own story to tell, about themselves, someone they know, or their own, now grown up children. So I'll give my own view, without bothering to claim there's any science behind it, just my own observations and common sense. ;-) If kids grow up in families where alcohol is used sensibly, and have alcohol available in small quantities from a young age, it generally leads to a healthy attitude to alcohol in adulthood. If they grow up where alcohol is banned until some arbitrary age, and then join a group where alcohol consumption is common, they will tend to overdo it. HiLo48 (talk) 09:07, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I think there's another factor as well, which is the social meaning of alcohol and its consumption, which also varies between societies. Kate Fox, in her Watching the English: the hidden rules of English behaviour, says (p. 261 in the Hodder & Stoughton hardback) "The experiments show that when people think they are drinking alcohol, they behave according to their cultural beliefs about the behavioural effects of alcohol" (but annoyingly doesn't give any references). This means that in 'Nordic' or 'temperance' cultures (including much of the US as well as the UK), the social ill-effects of alcohol tend to be much greater than in 'Mediterranean' cultures. This doesn't say anything about the prevalence of alcohol-related effects on the health of individuals, though. --ColinFine (talk) 14:21, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Italians

Is it true that amongst Europeans, Italians are sometimes known as "the Chinese people of Europe" because of low morals and high corruption? I've never had of that phrase before, and I'm wondering if it's a commonly known stereotype. --140.180.5.169 (talk) 09:13, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Given that you've never heard it before, where did you hear it this time? It seems to be one of those clever(?) expressions that manages to insult two ethnic groups at once. Ugly. HiLo48 (talk) 09:28, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I heard it from a Chinese history teacher discussing Italy. He's well-educated and knows a lot about Europe, which is why I suspect it might have some basis, even though I haven't been able to find other references to it. --140.180.5.169 (talk) 14:07, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

The first thing that came to my mind is the Irish being the Niggers of Europe, an expression not meant to insult either group. As to "Italians being the Chinese people of Europe", I don't know if "low morals and high corruption" would be the first thing to come to most European's minds about either the Italians or the Chinese, so as a racist allusion it does rather lack comprehensibility. FiggyBee (talk) 09:45, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure about the Chinese, but it's a common enough stereotype of the Italians (normally referenced in discussions about Silvio Berlusconi and his apparently much higher approval in Italy than elsewhere). The Chinese government may be percieved as having low morals and high corruption, but I haven't heard the same applied to the Chinese people as a whole. --Tango (talk) 12:07, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Google certainly doesn't throw up evidence: the British, French and Dutch are all described on a very small number of websites as the "Chinese of Europe"/"Chinese people of Europe". The Dutch for their trading expertise, but no idea about the other two. Generally "the Chinese people of Europe" refers to people of Chinese origin living in Europe. (One site says Basque language is the Chinese of Europe.) --Colapeninsula (talk) 10:03, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

This is just the latest of a series of questions from 140.180.5.169 (talk · contribs) whose purpose at least appears to be to foment arguments. 10:20, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I've asked exactly 2 questions before this one: one about animal sexuality, and the other about how adults perceive the world differently from children. That's hardly a "series" of questions, and the second is not even remotely likely to cause an argument. --140.180.5.169 (talk) 11:11, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

So you didn't ask the loaded question about Muslims? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:53, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I didn't ask any question relating to Muslims. I respectfully ask you to recheck my contributions and apologize here for your mistake. --140.180.5.169 (talk) 14:07, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Ah, you're right, it was a registered user that asked that question, and you merely provided some evidence. Meanwhle, you should answer HiLo's question, immediately below. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:20, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

But where did you hear this? HiLo48 (talk) 11:16, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I am not aware of such an expression being used in Europe. However, according to this book, the designation (among North Americans) had to do with skin color of immigrants:

"Italians were called 'the Chinese of Europe', (...) Chinese and Italians 'occupied an ambiguous, overlapping and intermediary position in the binary racial schema'. Neither black nor white, both were seen as in-between, or 'yellow', 'olive' or 'swarty'." - Lindert (talk) 12:06, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

reaction to new apple product

Hi,

This is kind of out of the purview of the reference desk demographic, but I'm curious what the "hipster demographic" 's reaction was to the new Macbook Pro with Retina Display? Do the "hipsters" still care about Apple now that the old man has passed away? Sorry if this is a difficult question to interpreter, it's really a marketing question / what's cool for artsy-types.

thanks

Juan. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.92.85.231 (talk) 10:10, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

The hipster is not reputed to favor low resolution displays. As an artsy type I would still favor a high resolution display even though Steve Jobs has passed away. Bus stop (talk) 10:46, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I'm specifically asking about that demographic, thanks. I also love the announced computer (though I can't afford it now). But I'm asking about a different demographic, which I don't belong to. --78.92.85.231 (talk) 11:19, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I am not a hipster (otherwise I wouldn't hang out on the Wikipedia reference desk, haha), but I would suggest that hipsters do indeed still care about Apple. Their devotion to the brand is so great that it is unlikely to be swayed by Jobs no longer being around. Jobs' whole philosophy permeates the company so his death has not had, and will not have, any significant impact on its future strategy and image. As for the MBP with retina display, I would say hipsters would love it. --Viennese Waltz 10:51, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Right, I know they don't belong here. I'm asking about them however. Could you give me any evidence that led you to this conclusion? Or is it a guess? --78.92.85.231 (talk) 11:19, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

I don't even know what a "hipster" is, but the only two reason why this old school UNIX hacker hasn't ordered it yet are a) I have a unibody MacBook Pro, and it already is a very very good notebook, and b) I like to wait until the initial wrinkles of new technology have been ironed out. Reasons why I want it: Excellent form factor, robust, enough performance to make the NSA nervous, good battery life, ohmygofhaveyouseenthedisplayofthatthing? Things I'm less happy with: Incompatible MagSafe2, no optical drive. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 11:28, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Stephen, I'm asking a marketing/demographics question. You might as well tell me why you don't need a tampon. 78.92.85.231 (talk) 14:27, 19 June 2012 (UTC)