Wikipedia talk:WikiProject LGBT studies

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Regnerus

I'm having trouble finding coverage of the much disputed Mark Regnerus paper in Social Science Research titled "How different are the adult children of parents who have same-sex relationships? Findings from the New Family Structures Study". I understand that it is not a study of "gay parenting" and has been excluded from the entry on LGBT parenting. Can someone point me in the right direction? It has just been cited (ignorantly) for the first time in a federal court decision. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 19:35, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm not sure precisely what sort of coverage you're looking for, but there's a few things out there. This being one of the more recent accessible things I've seen about the quality of the study. Google Scholar only has the paper cited by two other resources, neither of which looks very helpful. There's probably more in here somewhere, but a lot of the most relevant stuff looks to use the link above (or the audit itself) as it's eventual source. Cheers, --j⚛e decker^talk 19:47, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Sorry. I know sources are widely available. I'm looking for it on Wikipedia. Even as bad science it merits some discussion. I see it mentioned/misrepresented at Witherspoon Institute, and that's just a one-liner. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 20:19, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm not sure where the best place would be as I'm not sure Regnerus is notable enough for an article. However, we should certainly refer to sources about the severe flaws in the study in articles where the study is mentioned, like the Witherspoon article, lest we provide misleading information. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:26, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I've just noted the case as the first to cite Regnerus where the court decision is listed in Same-sex marriage in the United States#Case law. I've also posed a question on Talk:LGBT parenting#Regnerus follow up. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 17:42, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Gay World Series & North American Gay Amateur Athletic Alliance

These two articles need their information to be segregated from each other. One is the organization, the other the event, but both seem to be about both topics, and should instead be separated to clearly be about one or the other. -- 70.24.247.242 (talk) 01:07, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

The former should likely be merged into the latter. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 02:36, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

As it now has been, with suitable redirects. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 13:34, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Homosexuality listed as a paraphilia at List of paraphilias

Hi, all. Please comment about this at Talk:List of paraphilias#Homosexuality should not be on this list. 109.123.127.204 (talk) 23:10, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard#glbtq.com as a source

Will some of you comment on this? The article in question is the Tomboy article and I am in a dispute with an editor who doesn't think that glbtq.com counts as a reliable source, especially regarding this current blockquote: "Throughout their history, tomboys have had to contend with the stigma of presumed lesbianism or the accusation of wanting to be male. Both assumptions were categorically refuted by twentieth-century psychology, which established the normality of the tomboy experience among girls of all identities. However, for many, the tomboy stage is the first manifestation of a gender-fluid life journey." 66.85.128.186 (talk) 00:59, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Unfortunately, the site itself didn't pass verifiability with no references as an encyclopedia. While it has many things we would assume make it reliable, it has some issues in regard to circular referencing and text matching wikipedia as well. I am sure there are stronger sources to use for this. (disclaimer, I am a involved editor at the discussion and a member of this project). Thanks!--Amadscientist (talk) 01:20, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

It has references, Amadscientist. But I had already agreed that there are better sources for this content. And, again, thank you for your help. 66.85.128.186 (talk) 01:48, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it doesn't. It has a bibliography but no references. There is a difference. One is a list of overall resources used whether cited or not in the article and references are a list of cited sources for the information being used. The section entitlted "Citation information" is information for citing the author/publication not for the references the author used. The threshold for inclusion on Wikipedia is verifiablity. This source is not verifiable.--Amadscientist (talk) 02:48, 21 August 2012 (UTC)

Impact of TV shows featuring LGBT content

Impact/evolution of TV shows featuring LGBT content; don't know which article fits the best so here's the link: http://www.nytimes.com/2012/05/09/business/media/gay-on-tv-its-all-in-the-family.html — Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.134.49.47 (talk) 14:50, 22 August 2012 (UTC)

Outing

Could other editors please look at the recent changes made to Outing? I'm uncomfortable with the vast re-interpretation of transgender people as having "conflicted gender identity" as well as the other sweeping changes. More eyes would be appreciated and I'm already dealing with some hate crime organizations so I'd rather not take on a new project right now. Insomesia (talk) 23:00, 25 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for bringing attention to this. I checked these changes and everything seems cool except for that strange description of transgender people. I do not want to comment on that article's talk page. It seems like the user who posted that is new and already involved in controversies. Blue Rasberry (talk) 16:48, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

They're still at it. Changing "disclosing a gay, lesbian, bisexual or transgender (LGBT) person's sexual orientation or gender identity" to "a person's history of same-sex sexual contact or transgender practices" which seems particularly dehumanizing. I've changed it back to the stable version and asked that they gain consensus before redefining the opening sentence like this. I've also asked for reliable sources that support such a change. I've seem their work on a few article so I would like other people's opinions at the article talkpage on what you think. Insomesia (talk) 23:52, 26 August 2012 (UTC)

Tom Cruise

There's a discussion at Talk:Tom Cruise#LGBT Project about whether the article should be in this Wikiproject or not. As far as I can tell, the only link he has to LGBT is that he has a history of suing people who say he's gay. The concern that apparently sparked the discussion was that he could sue Wikipedia for putting him in the LGBT project/putting the template on his talk page. I don't have strong opinions on the matter myself, but I thought I'd notify interested editors here. ~Adjwilley (talk) 01:50, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

The discussion at Talk:Tom Cruise#LGBT Project has since morphed into something rather more significant: whether this WikiProject can be prohibited by outside editors from adding articles to its scope due to concerns that the project tag might be misconstrued. WikiProject members may wish to visit the above discussion, or the related posting on WP:BLPN.--Trystan (talk) 02:40, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

I'll just add that "prohibition" isn't the goal and agreement by editors part of this project is sought. Acoma Magic (talk) 05:42, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Remember Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Wikiproject tags on biographies of living people, when we agreed that this group can tag any article they want? Remember the guideline at WP:PROJGUIDE#OWN, which says you can tag any article you want? Well, apparently not everyone remembers it. But SV's coments have reminded me that your assessment cats could have a more verbose name, like "B-class WikiProject LGBT studies articles". WhatamIdoing (talk) 18:52, 29 August 2012 (UTC)

Category: Gay Wikipedians

Possibly not the best place to put this, but the category for gay wikipedians is currently undergoing deletion review, so anyone interested in weighing in, please do so here. Thanks. Ncboy2010 (talk) 13:23, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Need assistance with resolving a dispute involving the transitioning (transgender) and Real-Life Experience articles

Hi WikiProject LGBT,

Several days ago or so I went ahead and moved the prior content of the Real-Life Experience subsection (link to pre-modified page) of the transitioning (transgender) article to its own article, which can now be found here: Real-Life Experience. In addition, since doing so, I have significantly expanded upon and rewritten most of the original content.

Upon moving the content to its own article, another user objected to the change for a variety of reasons, and has tagged the new page with a deletion request. We have been discussing the matter in attempts to resolve it but do not appear to be getting anywhere. As a result, I would like to invite others involved in WikiProject LGBT to the discussion to help us reach a consensus/resolution.

The discussion for the matter can be found here on the talk page of the transitioning (transgender) article. Any input would be appreciated.

Thanks. — el3ctr0nika (Talk | Contribs) 20:46, 27 August 2012 (UTC)

Fight OUT Loud

Please consider this Request for Comment re notability. Fight OUT Loud Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 19:45, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Kim Petras

The article on Kim Petras consistently cites her as "he" despite identifying as a woman. I do not believe this is accurate protocol but am not entirely sure so would rather leave it/bring it to the attention of people who deal with this topic. Thank you. Wherschel (talk) 21:34, 28 August 2012 (UTC)

Transgender reporting in the media

Paris Lee's latest piece for the Independent's blog network is a good read about how the journalistic community, despite their standards of practice, are often terrible when it comes to reporting of trans issues. It's nothing new; Trans Media Watch submitted evidence to the Leveson Inquiry on a similar tangent. Should these problems be explicitly noted? I've seen on several pages where the source's description is preferred over the person's self description. Sceptre ^(talk) 12:56, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks for those, i'll add them to what i'm doing on User:Jenova20/Transphobia in the media! ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 14:11, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Modern two spiritulasim

There can be no denial of the fact that as humanity evolves so too does our sexuality. It would be ignornat to assume otherwise. What is considered to be an evolved sense of sexuality or of gender identification? That is a question that is not asked enough. There are many clinical and phsycological studies and theories. Ranging between what was "wrong" with those with alternative gender identifications or sexual preferences to what is "wrong" with those who would repress, deny, or otherwise dishonor their own sexual desires. Being of an alternative gender identification or sexual orientation can provide difficult circumstances for personal growth, sexual coupling, or simply societal functioning. Historically in Native American and other indigenous tribal cultures, there were those who were simulaneously a male and a female presence. Although these indidviduals were often intuitive and held places such as medicine men and women and tribal councellors, their connection to the devine left them as targets for retribution or sacrifice when the gods didn't bless the community with a healthy crop or disfortunes of the like. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.67.204.60 (talk) 20:38, 31 August 2012 (UTC)

"Dyke"

The usage of "dyke" is up for discussion, see Talk:Levee -- 76.65.128.252 (talk) 04:09, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Binarism

The new binarism article could use some help getting off its feet. All help will be greatly appreciated.-Rainbowofpeace (talk) 04:51, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Gold star lesbian

The article Gold star lesbian (the term refers to a lesbian who has never had sex with a man) has been deleted as non-notable. The term has been used in scholarly articles (see this Google Scholar search) and appears in various dictionaries of slang, but perhaps should only be considered a dictionary definition. If the concept is notable, then there ought to be a Wikipedia article on it, but I am not sure that notability can be proven. I have submitted the definition to Wiktionary. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 06:30, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

I redirected ther page to Wiktionary, see Gold star lesbian. I doubt the concept is independently notable, but I may be mistaken, see Google News archives and Google Books. I have no objections to expansion or improvement of the article. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 06:46, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

The entry has been deleted from Wiktionary. See 07:00, 4 September 2012 SemperBlotto (Talk | contribs) deleted page gold star lesbian (Creative invention or protologism: please see WT:CFI; use WT:LOP) [1]. --Vejvančický (talk | contribs) 07:29, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Seduction of the innocent (Batman)

Forgive me the catchy header, just hoped to draw another eye or two. For what, by my count, is the fourth time in about two months or less, Talk:Batman is seeing another wall-of-text "rabble rabble Batman's not gay remove your reliably-sourced and appropriately-weighted section on scholarly interpretation of Batman as a gay figure rabble rabble" rant; I really am getting to the point where I'm liable to start responding with nothing of value beyond vitriol. Any of you guys maybe want to watchlist the page in case you could add something now or in the future? Current fella is literally arguing that an author is not a good source for his own intent, just to give you a taster. Thanks for any help you might be able to add. GRAPPLE X 08:42, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

It's fundamentally part of the same mess as at Talk:Tom Cruise, except at Tom Cruise we also get to claim that there are serious BLP issues in having the LGBT studies WikiProject banner on the page. In case you were wondering, this problem does affect other WikiProjects, but usually with less impersonal vitriol (and sometimes more personal vitriol, when we have two WikiProjects whose members dislike each other and believe that the other group is engaged in a hostile takeover). WhatamIdoing (talk) 21:16, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

I think Batman talk page should benefit from a FAQ at the top specifically addressing the issue. Also there's a repeated topics template, see Talk:Homophobia. Insomesia (talk) 23:30, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Notice Board

Hello - I think we should redirect the project noticeboard here. No one uses it, and people wanting to post a heads-up should be coming to the talk page. What I'm not sure how to handle is integrating that page's history/archives into the talk page's history/archives, so people are aware that the material is there to be read. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 20:13, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Another possibility might be to transclude noticeboard posts onto this page, much as posts to Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Requests for closure are transcluded to WP:AN. This would obviate any complications over page histories and the existing archives. I'm not sure if there are other implications, either theoretical (e.g., project page content duplicated on a talk page) or logistical (the possibility of new duplicate archives). Rivertorch (talk) 23:22, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

I support a redirect without transclusion and leaving the history and archives there. To make people aware of the existence of the archives we just link to it. I confirm that the notice board has never been popular and has received fewer than ten posts in the past few years and that this page is the de facto noticeboard. It might be possible to re-institute the noticeboard in a few years if more people participate in LGBT community development, but right now there is no need for that board and this one both. Blue Rasberry (talk) 12:39, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Category for Discussion

Category:Gay Wikipedians is being proposed for deletion after the earlier deletion review discussion. Please feel free to participate. Thank you! Ncboy2010 (talk) 17:12, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Does the WikiProject Template need a disclaimer?

I'm not a member of this project, but the ongoing discussion at Talk:Tom Cruise brought an issue to my attention which should be discussed here. Currently, {{WikiProject LGBT}} is being added to any article that has some interest to members of this project. It has been argued (and I agree) that when added to the talk page of a biography of a living person, it has problematic BLP implications. But there's also a widespread view that WikiProjects should have the right to tag articles as part of their scope. So, here's a possible solution to this dilemma: should the template include a short disclaimer, something alone the lines of The use of this template does not necessarily imply that the subject is LGBT?

We already take a similar approach with potentially contentious categories - as I'm sure this project's members are aware, Category:LGBT people and its subcategories have a clear disclaimer at the top stating This category may inappropriately label persons. I think we should do something similar with the template. This isn't a matter of 'protecting us from getting sued', it's simply a matter of basic decency, and not making potentially offensive implications about living people. What does everyone else think? Robofish (talk) 19:16, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

No. No more than every other Wikiproject tag needs a disclaimer. We shouldn't bow to what feels like hysteria and homophobia. The current guidelines noted in the discussion amply cover the situation. Insomesia (talk) 19:25, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Agreed ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 20:04, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I'm of two minds.

Mind One: We are not labeling persons when we use a project tag. We are stating our interests. Need we list the homophobes and homophobic organizations we tag as obvious evidence of that? We could discuss someone's sexual orientation ad nauseam on a Talk page without being challenged, but the rainbow is too much? And I don't think a comparing Talk page material with entry page material is appropriate.

Mind Two: I'd be happy with language that says that "this entry is of interest to participants in the LGBT Project". I'd have serious problems with anything that smacked of a disclaimer. As usual, it's all in the details. Maybe we need to subtract the "LGBT-related" language. Of interest shoudl suffice. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 20:44, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Well it does say "WikiProject LGBT studies" and the rainbow (flag) is the international symbol of LGBTQQI, etc inclusiveness. Anyone actually upset by that probably is upset about lots of things that we aren't about to change, about ourselves or the project. Insomesia (talk) 22:07, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

I think that an even handed approach is much more palatable than one that targets just this project. I would not be opposed to modification of Template:WPBannerMeta to the effect of The presence of this banner does not constitute a material statement about the subject of this article, though it seems a little legal-y to me. Changes to that template should be discussed at the village pump first since it they would impact virtually every article talk page. VQuakr (talk) 02:36, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Why don't we simply add something to Wikipedia:General disclaimer or create Wikipedia:Talk page disclaimer if this is that big an issue? There must be other issues on talk pages we might need a disclaimer for? Hiding T 09:00, 6 September 2012 (UTC)

Judging from the other comments, this doesn't seem to be generally considered a problem needing a specific disclaimer. Fair enough, I was probably being a bit oversensitive in suggesting it. It's also true that this is far from the worst template when it comes to implicitly making allegations about someone - the likes of {{WikiProject Criminal Biography}} are much more serious. That template seems to do without a disclaimer, and just expects people to use it with caution; I suppose the same applies here. Robofish (talk) 23:38, 8 September 2012 (UTC)

Classification of transsexuals

I'm concerned that this article may not be NPOV but would prefer other editors to take a look. Primarily it seems to be yet another article legitimizing Blanchard's work which has been seen as controversial. Insomesia (talk) 22:04, 5 September 2012 (UTC)

Use of flag icons and improvements to Same-sex marriage legislation around the world

Could you give your opinions here? Ron 1987 (talk) 00:49, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

And your ideas about how to improve that woeful and bloated article would also be useful and welcome there. 70.253.91.210 (talk) 07:47, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

LGBT rights in *country* series

As someone who is interested in differences in LGBT rights in different countries, I have frequently been disappointed to find that in many of the "LGBT rights in *country*" articles, the rights of transgender people are never discussed. This is a huge problem, and I think that a systematic effort should be made to include a section on transgender rights (or the lack of) in every article, regardless of how brief. Otherwise, it's just LGB. Incidentally, I've also noticed a tendency to focus on gay men, with lesbians frequently receiving little to no attention; this is also something which needs to be assessed, but it's much less prevalent than the trans problem. --92.39.193.94 (talk) 05:27, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

It's probably indicative of the situation with RSes and even LGB charities in those countries. Very often, the "T" is an afterthought. Stonewall, for instance, have come into a lot of flack for not just ignoring, but actively harming the trans rights movement. Sceptre ^(talk) 14:37, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The bias is in the publishing and sources. There are not many members of the transgender community in publishing, academia, or media, and so not much content exists to be cited. If you are sensitive to this issue and have access to media on the international transgender community then consider posting your sources to the respective talk pages of each country's LGBT rights article. Without sources this content will never be included, and I fear that for many places there just are no sources to cite. Blue Rasberry (talk) 15:54, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi, I'm the IP above. I've been curious about transgender issues in countries like China for a while, because the information isn't available on Wikipedia and I wouldn't know where to look for legal information (which, really, is the content I'm after for these articles). I've found out about some aspects of the Chinese laws regarding transsexuals through English versions of Chinese newspapers (things like you must wait five years for surgery, and can change your identification at a police station, but you must be single and must have had surgery). Are these valid sources for asserting what the legal position is, or must I find copies of the actual laws? Also, can I join this project? --Poppy Appletree (talk) 14:20, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Hi Poppy, First, yes, you can join this project! Welcome! You can list yourself as a member here if you want. Newspaper coverage (from reliable newspapers) is in some ways actually preferred on Wikipedia to primary sources: reading the actual laws can be error-prone, newspaper coverage tends towards at least "big-picture" accuracy. Primary sources (the laws themselves) can be used, but are best used cautiously, or in addition to newspapers, books, etc. --j⚛e decker^talk 14:28, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

LGBT cats for dead royalty

User:Pgarret has recently been removing the Category:LGBT Royalty from a number of gay and lesbian dead royals, such as Edward II of England, Henry III of France and Princess Isabella of Parma. He has also in at least one instance replaced "gay" with "homosexual" which may be indicative of his WP:POV. I started a conversation on his talk page and he simply reiterated his view that it is WP:OR for these individuals to be declared gay simply because they had sexual relations with people of the same sex and then reverted my reverts. Apparently, his grandfather was baptised by one of the royals whom he has decided is not gay enough to be labeled LGBT (which he views as a "political" term) so it is also somewhat personal to him. Please feel free to weigh in. Argos'Dad 18:20, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

The use of and/or substitution of the terms gay and homosexual and lesbian is usually debatable. The best solution is follow to the sources. You don't tell us where that's been an issue. It would help to know. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 18:53, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

Changing gay to homosexual is reminiscent of organizations that replace the word gay with homosexual to hilarious results (here. But I take your point that it is not the central focus here. User:Pgarret has provided his list of unsourced or not sufficiently gay people to warrant the GLBT cat. It is here:

• James Brooke ‎ (Category:LGBT royalty proper source?)
• Franz, Duke of Bavaria ‎ (No source. Absolutely no conclusive evidence, removing Category:LGBT royalty)
• Marie Joséphine of Savoy ‎ (Category:Lesbians no conducive evidence. removing)
• Marie Joséphine of Savoy ‎ ("have suggested Marie Joséphine's possible lesbian relationship with a lady-in-waiting" not sufficient for placing in any LGBT category)
• Philipp, Landgrave of Hesse ‎ ("According to biographer Jonathan Petropoulos, Philipp was probably bisexual" this does not mean that Philipp, Landgrave of Hesse can be automatically placed in Category:LGBT royalty, Category:LGBT people from Germanyetc. removing)
• Prince Pierre, Duke of Valentinois ‎ ("Prince Pierre's homosexuality, according to his friend, British writer James Lees-Milne" i.e. claim not conducive evidence. Removing Category:LGBT royalty)
• Grand Duke Sergei Alexandrovich of Russia ‎ (Removing Category:LGBT. Sources weak. (rumoured to have been a homosexual). A reactionary even by contemporary conservative standards http://pages.rediff.com/grand-duke-sergei-alexandrovich-of-russia/)
• Louis Joseph, Duke of Vendôme ‎ (Saint-Simon lui reprochera surtout d'être adonné au « vice » des « habitants de Sodome » from fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Louis-Joseph_de_Vend%C3%B4me. i.e. has been criticized for alleged homosexuality - removing categorization until more sources)
• Ludwig II of Bavaria‎ (Man kann natürlich fragen: Ist es überhaupt von Bedeutung, zu wissen, welche sexuellen Probleme Ludwig II. hatte oder ob Ludwig II. homosexuell war oder nicht? http://www.sgipt.org/medppp/zwang/ludwig2/frauen.htm#Ludwig%20II.%20und%20die%20Sexualit%...) Ludwig II of Bavaria ‎ (Ludwig is best known as an eccentric and at best a latent homosexual. A long-time and very close and personal relationship with Richard Wagner did exist but does that also make Wagner a LGBT candidate?)
• Prince George, Duke of Kent ‎ (Queens uncle Prince George was only reputed to have had sexual liaisons with maybe a man or two. Does that justify categorizing as Category:LGBT royalty or Category:LGBT people from England)
• Princess Isabella of Parma ‎ (No sources for Category:LGBT royalty. Wikipedia articles in German, French, Italian does not mention this LGBT claim. A claim is not enough -only facts. Thank you)
• Henry III of France ‎ (Alleged homosexuality...hat his supposed homosexuality was based on his dislike of war and hunting being interpreted as effeminate, an image cultivated by political opponents. Removing "presumptive" categories)
• Ferdinando II de' Medici, Grand Duke of Tuscany ‎ (The LGBT category- No corroborating facts. Italian and German language Wikipedia has only; Ferdinando II sposò Vittoria Della Rovere. Discendenza: Cosimo (*/† 1639), Cosimo III.(1642–1723), Francesco Maria (1660–1711).)
• Edward II of England ‎ (rumoured to have been either homosexual or bisexual i.e. not established fact. Rumoured to have been a clown or had Abasiophilia does not count as reason for Category mark)
• Christina, Queen of Sweden ‎ (Not a substantiate fact. Sexuality "labels" in history are not only misleading, highly controversial or manipulated evidence but especially anachronistical when applied throughout history with there own and differentiated concept of sex and sexuality.)

I am not saying any of these people are/are not GLBT. I am struck by the standard PGarret is using to determine who is gay enough to warrant the category. Argos'Dad 19:14, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I decided to look at just one of these, Henry III of France. And there really isn't enough to justify the category. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 20:04, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I don't disagree, but I take a look at Prince George, Duke of Kent ‎who has repeated documented liaisons with men and women. If that's not bisexual, what is? And the B in LGBT is for bisexual... Argos'Dad 21:30, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

"documented liaisons with men and women" -- some fuzzy wording with a citation to the Letters of Noel Coward that cites no page. Same for the "some suggestion" citation of Lucy Moore's work. "reportedly blackmailed" with no citation at all. The most specific bits cite Picknett, Prince, Prior & Brydon's War of the Windsors, which you really don't want to be using as a source. The lead author is Lynn Picknett, "a writer, researcher, and lecturer on the paranormal, the occult, and historical and religious mysteries." Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 23:39, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

May I express my extreme disappointment in this discussion? When I saw this section header pop up in my watchlist, I thought it was going to be about homosexual felines who were fans of deceased monarchs. Perhaps not nearly so necessary a discussion, but one with more inherent interest. --Nat Gertler (talk) 21:39, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

My great-aunt Mildred had a cat that she swore was gay, but alas, Mildred wasn't royalty and the cat failed WP:Notability. Sorry to disappoint! Argos'Dad 21:45, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

I wish that comment had a like button. Acoma Magic (talk) 22:02, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

{{Like}}. There's a template for everything. WhatamIdoing (talk) 23:23, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

All very funny were we not still reeling from the death of Her Majesty's corgi. Dogs are people too, my friend. Bmclaughlin9 (talk) 23:41, 10 September 2012 (UTC)

• As you go back into history it gets more difficult because we don't have people self-identifying as LGBT the way they do today - because of legal and social penalties, or because the language and concepts simply did not exist. It is undoubted that in many of these cases, reliable sources - multiple, reliable, scholarly, neutral, modern-day - identify the individuals as LGBT according to modern understanding. If we cannot agree to categorize people like James VI/I and Edward II as absolutely LGBT (although I think we should; their relationships are very well documented), we should be able to create some sort of "Possibly LGBT people" category that would include only deceased people (probably with some date cutoff, so as not to catch the recently dead that users might speculate about) and for which inclusion would be determined based on an assessment of sources. This would allow us to recognize the work done by historical scholars on these individuals' personal relationships and avoid arbitrarily weighting the views of some scholars (the ones who say they're straight) over others, while avoiding taking a position if the matter is debated. –Roscelese (talk ⋅ contribs) 00:42, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

I would like to second this suggestion ツ Jenova20 ^(email) 15:16, 11 September 2012 (UTC)

Request for comment about Same-sex marriage legislation around the world

A request for comment about this article is now pending. You are invited to join the discussion. 70.253.91.210 (talk) 16:26, 11 September 2012 (UTC)