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February 4

Coca-cola commercial

Which languages are at which positions in this Superbowl ad? I think Spanish is at 6 seconds and French at 38 s, but I have no idea about the rest. Thanks. --Bowlhover (talk) 04:46, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Just taking a quick listen, I think it's:

• 0-6 sec English
• 6-10 sec Spanish
• 11-15 sec ???
• 16-21 sec (not exactly sure, but I think it's Chinese)
• 22-32 sec English again
• 33-38 sec Hindi
• 38-42 sec French
• 43-49 sec (not sure but sounds Semitic)
• 50-end English again

As an aside, I don't think this is the full version commercial. I saw it live; it seemed longer and I remember more languages.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 06:42, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Actually, this article says "Languages featured in the Coca-Cola ad were English, Spanish, Tagalog, Hebrew, Hindi, Keres, and Senegalese-French" It doesn't give the order but I think you can figure it out now. Keres, btw, is a Pueblo (Native American) language).--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 06:50, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Coca-Cola has issued a set of separate YouTube videos with the whole of the song rendered in various languages, so if you are interested enough you can try and identify the bits used from those videos. However, I have to say that the 16–21 seconds portion does not sound Chinese at all. — SMUconlaw (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Jack In The Box Plural

What is the plural of Jack In The Box? Is it Jack In The Boxes or Jacks In The Box? I suppose it would be Jacks In The Boxes, considering there would be multiple Jacks and therefore multiple boxes, unless they are all in the same one, which would be terrifying. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 09:31, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Merriam-Webster is of the opinion that it can be either jacks or boxes. Dismas|^(talk) 09:42, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

(EC) The common spelling is Jack-in-the-box (with the hyphens) and [this] indicates either plural form is acceptable. Now I'm wondering what the possessive would be...and the possessive of the plural.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 09:47, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Heh. I created this article, but even I am bereft of ideas. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:18, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

There is a fast food joint in the USA called Jack in the Box. In that case, I'd say e.g. "this town has two Jack in the Boxes", because the whole phrase is a proper name, and plural morphology on the last work carries to the whole phrase. For Jack-in-the-box_(toy) it's a little murkier. OED gives variants of all three of your forms.

1. "Jack in Boxes, nor Decoyes, Puppets nor such poore things." (1627)
2. "These women..toungs that lie worse than false clocks, By which they catch men like Jacks in a box." (1639)
3. "Battles are won by resolute, enthusiastic men, not by jacks-in-boxes." (1899)

-- So, with OED as your backup, you can use almost whatever form you like :) However, all the non-OED Oxford dictionaries I've checked simply give "jack-in-the-boxes." Hope that helps, SemanticMantis (talk) 17:55, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

KageTora -- Dr. Seuss did a funny cartoon on this exact subject (no 12 in "Tardy Laurels for Forgotten Brows") around 1930; here's the text: Kelp the Crusader: Never has the U.S. faced a worse crisis than in 1887, after the invention of the Jack-in-the-Box. It had become a fad overnight, and everyone was having a whale of a time when someone asked, "What is its plural?" "Jack-in-the-Boxes!" claimed some. Others hotly insisted, "Jacks-in-the-Box!" Civil war seemed inevitable, when Zeke Kelp's Crusade won a compromise on, "Jacks-in-the-Boxes." Unthanked for forty-three years, Kelp will be honored next week when N.Y. City unveils a hydrant in his name. -- AnonMoos (talk) 19:35, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Two Jacks can be in one box, but one Jack can't be in two boxes. (I also prefer "two Johns Smith" over "two John Smiths", but on somewhat different grounds: we occasionally say "Ronnies Corbett and Barker" but never "John and Bob Smiths".) —Tamfang (talk) 21:07, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

It's a damn shame the toy isn't called "Jack in a Box". The plural of that would be obvious: "Jacks in Boxes". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:29, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

The OED also has info/quotes on "Jack in a Box" (as an alternate form/spelling), but my VPN is acting up so I can't check now. If you really want the info and can't get access, I can probably post it later. It's interesting, though, as I can't tell if the 1627 quote above comes from the "the" or "a" version... or if there are attested uses of "Jack in Box"? SemanticMantis (talk) 22:35, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

It would be the same issue with jack-o-lantern, will-o-the-wisp, whip-poor-will and such. Those are taken as single words, so the plural and/or possessive goes at the end. In contrast to a term like court-martial, whose plural is usually courts-martial. And the plural of something like brother-in-law is normally brothers-in-law... but the possessive is brother-in-law's. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

And the plural possessive is brothers-in-law's. There's also 1 o'clock, the plural of which is 'many o'clocks'.  :) (Well, it's no worse than the European couple in Casablanca who were congratulating each other on "how vell ze English ve are speaking". The husband wanted to know the time, and asked "What watch?". The wife answered "Ten watch". The husband retorted "Ay, such watch!". The husband was played by Cuddles Sakall.) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:26, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Well that brings me to another question, which is not actually related to the reason I asked the original one. What would be the possessives of "Jack In The Box" (I refuse to use the hyphen)? Considering Jack doesn't actually own anything, except a box and clothes (he doesn't even own legs!), this is purely hypothetical. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 21:10, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Even stones "own" their attributes: a stone's size, shape, colour, age ..... So, one could ask "What is the Jack in the Box's colour?". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:22, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

salt bloom

What is the meaning of "salt bloom" in the sentence "Their bodies were covered with salt bloom when they came out of the sea."? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.215.3 (talk) 15:33, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Googling the term, this was the first item that came up.[1] It appears to be a colloquial term for a significant surface accumulation of salt. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:46, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Salty crusts (and also certain ices and frosts) are also sometimes called a rime, [2]. SemanticMantis (talk) 18:21, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I don't think you need to assume there's anything of a significant thickness here, which a rime would indicate. Just enough of a surface to be visible would count as a bloom. Kind of like frost from a breath on a cold window, not a ring of ice around the hull of a boat floating in frozen water. μηδείς (talk) 19:10, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

a comma or a full stop?

Should a comma or a full stop be used in the following sentence? He shook his head(,or .)‘No,you can't do it.’ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.215.3 (talk) 15:43, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd go with: "No," he shook his head. "You can't do it." μηδείς (talk) 17:17, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, less clunky that way, but your wording has a slightly different meaning (order of actions) ;) SemanticMantis (talk) 18:03, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd say that the meaning could be different with different punctuation. With a period, it could be "he" speaking, or someone else speaking -- it's technically ambiguous. Without changing any word order (and assuming "he" is speaking) , I think the best choice is Colon_(punctuation)#Segmental, i.e. "He shook his head: "No, you can't do it". SemanticMantis (talk) 18:01, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Upon reading my link more carefully, the quotation marks are technically unnecessary if a colon is used to introduce speech. SemanticMantis (talk)

I'd rather say the quotes are not necessarily necessary, depending on the context. If the sentence in question was from a novel, where most other speaking is rendered in quotes, then this one should be, too. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:02, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

It sounds totally different. If you read the following sentence, what would you think I'm saying? He shook his head no. It sounds like he's shaking his head to indicate no, right? Well, if you also add a quote after it, it sounds like he's shaking his head while saying it.

He shook his head, "no you can't do that."

On the other hand, if you put a full stop, it sounds sequential. First he shakes his head. Then he says, "No you can't do that." (in this sentence of mine the verb is 'says' which obviously automatically implies a concurrent movement of the lips, whereas a verb like 'acknowledged' only implies it.)

• To me a full stop is absolutely necessary here. In order to use a comma it would have to be: He shook his head, saying, "No, you can't do that." Otherwise you have a run-on sentence. Looie496 (talk) 19:57, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

what I'm saying is that if you write He shook his head, "No, you can't do that." it is similar to writing He shook his head no. I would accept the latter sentence, wouldn't you? i.e. it's an action verb: http://goasktheplatypus.wordpress.com/2009/03/20/for-writers-a-list-of-talking-verbs/ 212.96.61.236 (talk) 23:05, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

Without context, and a very detailed description of what he was saying no or shaking his head no to, and of what he was saying couldn't be done, and why, it is really impossible to give alternatives other than guessing. Either original sentence would work as given in the first question. It is up to the author to decide what subtlety of meaning he wants.

The only way for the writer to handle this is to pick one way to say it, and if you're not sure, underline it in the draft as needing a possible touch-up and come back to it the next day. Your subconscious will work on the question for you over night.

For the abstract issues behind how to deal with such questions I would strongly recommend Ayn Rand's two short manuals: The Art of Fiction and The Art of Nonfiction. μηδείς (talk) 03:11, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Finnish question

Hi, how would one ask "Where's yours?" in Finnish? The "you" is a close, female friend. The referent of "yours" is to a heart but if possible I'd prefer that heart not be specified (it will be evident from the context). I mean where in a literal sense, as in Where's your cup? or Where's your scarf? - the intent is not at all to imply that the interlocutor is heartless. Thanks 160.39.9.82 (talk) 23:05, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

We have an RD regular who is s native Finnish speaker, user:JIP. If nobody answers, you may want to contact him/her on their talk page. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 09:51, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

The closest I can think of off-hand would be "Missä sinun on?" or "Missä on sinun?". Finnish doesn't have separate words for "mine", "yours" etc., the same words as for "my", "your", etc. are used. Because it's a close friend, I used the singular "you" "sinä". Unlike English, Finnish (and a whole load of other languages) has separate words for singular "you" and plural "you". The word order in Finnish is mostly free, so either of those sentences is correct. However, I think the first one, where the verb comes last, would be more frequently used. JIP | Talk 10:09, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

And since Finnish (like a whole load of languages, really) does not have grammatical gender, it is irrelevant whether the friend is female or otherwise, and the translation does not depend on a grammatical gender of the possessed thing (the heart). Disclaimer: I don't speak Finnish. --Theurgist (talk) 16:38, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

By the way, are there any IE languages where the second person pronoun has gender? (It is gendered in Semitic.) (Before someone helps me, I do know Finnish is not IE nor Semitic.) —Tamfang (talk) 03:35, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

The article "Gender-specific and gender-neutral pronouns" (version as of 7 February 2014) makes no mention of that, though it says that the first-person pronouns of Tocharian A (Eastern Tocharian) are gendered. --Theurgist (talk) 20:57, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Translation request - Russian --> English

Hi, was wondering if an editor familiar with Russian could take a look at my recent edits to Nizhny Novgorod Planetarium. I based my changes on a machine translation, but I was getting confused because there were multiple names for the church that used to house the planetarium: Blagoveschensky monastery, Alexievskaya church building, Alexievslaya Church of the Annunciation Monastery, and so on. I also attempted to translate the captions and referenced articles' titles. If you feel like improving the article, please do! but I just want to make sure I didn't botch it up too badly. Here are my relevant edits. The Russian article is here Thanks! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 23:20, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

The monastery was called the Blagoveschensky Monastery (ru:Благовещенский монастырь (Нижний Новгород)), and it would have contained many buildings such as dormitories, kitchens, cellars, etc. Blagoveshcheniya means the Annunciation, so "Annunciation Monastery" is the same name with the first word translated instead of transliterated. The church at the monastery was named the Alexievskaya Church after Alexius, Metropolitan of Moscow, who is said to have re-founded it. So there are really just two names: one for the entire monastery, and one for the church on the campus of the monastery. --Amble (talk) 01:34, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

@Amble: Thank you very much for this. It really helps! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:43, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Hebrew "yi"

In modern Hebrew, is "yi", as in "ישראל", more commonly pronounced as [ji] or as [i]? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 23:27, 4 February 2014 (UTC)

I've never heard "yi" pronounced as anything but [ji] in Hebrew. [i] is typical of some Yiddish dialects, not Hebrew. הסרפד (call me Hasirpad) 02:02, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

February 5

The cucumber is bound to its vine.

In "The cucumber is bound to its vine.", is the word "bound" a correct usage here? Are there some alternatives? Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.168.3 (talk) 02:45, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

You would probably say it was attached to the vine, or simply "on the vine". Bound means tied by string or some other restraining material. μηδείς (talk) 03:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

(ec) Although I've not heard that before it sounds more idiomatic to me. "As the cucumber is bound to its vine, so too is your mortal flesh bound to this earth." 196.214.78.114 (talk) 06:01, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Usage like that would be considered highly poetic or literary nowadays. You wouldn't find it in normal speech or sober academic writing. It's not something you would write outside a poem or a sermon. μηδείς (talk) 06:39, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

a long face like a cucumber

Is the phrase "a long face like a cucumber" acceptable in English? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.168.3 (talk) 02:47, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, except that must be a very funny looking person: it makes perfect sense, but it is not a common phrase. An unattractive person with a long face is often described as horse-faced. E.g., "John was horse-faced and his wife had an overbite but their three children were beautiful." μηδείς (talk) 02:59, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Note that the phrase pulled a long face is used idiomatically to mean someone is unhappy and frowning, thus causing his or her face to look longer than if he or she were smiling. (For example, "She pulled a long face when I said it was time for us to visit the dentist.") If you are using the phrase in that sense, then it would seem a bit strange to a native English speaker if you added "like a cucumber" after it. — SMUconlaw (talk) 10:55, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

as sb. well puts it

In "as sb. puts it", is the word "well" redundant? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.168.3 (talk) 02:50, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

No, it's not redundant; they mean different things. As somebody puts it means "as someone says" and As somebody well puts it means "as someone says skillfully". μηδείς (talk) 02:55, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Can a sentence beginning with "more than once" be inverted?

Can a sentence beginning with "more than once" be inverted? If it can, could you give me one example? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.216.244 (talk) 09:48, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

If I'm understanding the question correctly, starting with "more than once" would be regarded as the inverted version: "I have seen him here more than once" is more idiomatic than "More than once I have seen him here", even though both are correct. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

I assume that the OP may refer to the inversion of meaning. As in "more than once" vs "less than once". The latter, "less than once", may be used jocularly but has little usage in spoken / written English. It may be used in statistical statements (e.g. "married couples kiss less than once a week") where it refers to some real number (they kiss 0.345 times a week). Of course, either sequence can appear in a longer construct, as in: "3 popes, less than once thought, ...", but this has an entirely different meaning. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 11:59, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Strictly speaking the inverted meaning of "more than once" is "once or less" not "less than once". -- Q Chris (talk) 12:05, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

"It" or "they" to refer to "a pair of trousers"?

Should "it" or "they" be used to refer to "a pair of trousers"? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.216.244 (talk) 09:51, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

They. See plurale tantum. AndyTheGrump (talk) 10:12, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Once homo sapiens becomes extinct (yes, I am getting older) and octopus sapiens sneaks into the "void", the above question becomes slightly more complex. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:08, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Hmm. While English is not my native tongue unlike Andy's, I'm not so convinced, particularly by his explanation. While grammatical number of trousers is certainly plural (tantum), grammatical number of pair is actually singular; number of the whole phrase a pair of trousers is a bit unclear. Having googled a bit, I saw both usages:

• When he returned two days later, a pair of trousers was missing. BBC
• while he was in a liquor store at Thompson and Bleecker streets on Wednesday evening a pair of trousers was stolen from him NY Times
• A pair of trousers was discovered in the river [3]

On the other hand:

• I told Mr. Scott that a pair of trousers were found on Chapman [4]
• Reports suggest a pair of trousers were located in a nearby seating shelter sparking the alarm. Island Echo UK
• In Vivienne’s shop a pair of trousers were 50 quid Dazed

No such user (talk) 13:53, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Notwithstanding the second set of usages above, I agree with No Such User that the key word here is pair which is singular, so I would go with it. — SMUconlaw (talk) 14:16, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

One could choose to put on "this pair of trousers" or "these trousers". But not "these pair of trousers" or "this trousers". But why do we use the "pair" anyway? They never come in single legs, do they? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:56, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

No_such_user -- third person verb agreement and pronoun reference (especially pronoun reference across clauses and across sentences) are not always exactly the same thing. Verb agreement can be indicative of probable pronoun reference, but it's not decisive direct evidence of pronoun choice... AnonMoos (talk) 08:12, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

dare not think those thoughts any further

I am not sure whether "dare not think those thoughts any further" is idiomatic or not. I need your help. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.216.244 (talk) 09:58, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Could be considered a little "literary". In older language, "dare" could function as an auxiliary verb, with additional forms "daren't", "durst", and "durstn't"... AnonMoos (talk) 10:06, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

A little more formal than "don't dare think ...", but nothing too out of the ordinary. Clarityfiend (talk) 12:37, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

money from selling apples

Is "money from selling apples" a proper phrase? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.216.244 (talk) 10:03, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes. "money from the sale of apples" would be more formal, but there's nothing wrong with this version. AlexTiefling (talk) 10:21, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Does beware stem from be aware?

--78.156.109.166 (talk) 19:04, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

They are both from the same root, as is wary. But, as the OED says, "The origin of this is involved". Beware is a blend of an Old English derived verb bewarian meaning to defend, and the two words be ware, where ware was an adjective with a similar meaning to modern wary. --ColinFine (talk) 19:32, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

In general, the English "be-" prefix comes from an old prepositional form, and has nothing to do with the verb "to be"... AnonMoos (talk) 02:29, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm not sure whether you are disagreeing with me or not, AnonMoos. In general you are right, but the OED specifically mentions both sources for this word (and mentions forms such as I am ware). --ColinFine (talk) 18:07, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I haven't examined the etymology of this word, but most English words with a "be-" prefix have nothing to do with the verb "to be"... AnonMoos (talk) 18:39, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

For example, OE "beniman" has a locative sense, "to take away", while simply "niman" is "to take". Also look at modern "bewitch"; "witch" has no verbal meaning, but "be-" turns it into a verb. Nyttend (talk) 00:14, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

See also wikt:ware#Etymology 3. --Trovatore (talk) 00:28, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Writing accented letters

I live on a street which has the letter "ä" in it. I recently bought an item from eBay from an American seller. When I received the package, it had my address on it two times: a printed sticker, and handwritten text on the box itself. The sticker had the street name spelled correctly, but the handwritten text had replaced the "ä" with an "a". The seller must have seen my street name spelled correctly with an "ä" both on the e-mail they got and on the printed sticker, but still written the name incorrectly with an "a". Why would anyone do this? Is it so difficult to put two extra dots on the box, or is this some kind of attitude against foreign letters? JIP | Talk 19:32, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

You're talking hand-written, not machine-printed, right? To the average American citizen, "ä" and "a" are the same thing. So they might just not have noticed it or thought it mattered. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:53, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

In some Nordic languages a and ä are different letters in their respective alphabet. In German, it is not. Few Americans can tell the difference between an umlaut and an accent. I many languages today, accents are not considered mandatory. I would guess, as Bugs does, that they did not think it mattered. DanielDemaret (talk) 20:39, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

In American English there are words and place names that use diacritical marks: naïve, coöperate, jalapeño, fiancée, café, San José, La Cañada. They are not considered distinct letters, and they can be used or omitted as a matter of style without changing the meaning. In fact, they sometimes cause problems (ask anyone who has a "complicated" name about their experiences at airport checkin). The sender probably believed that he was writing the same name, with the same letters, but in the form most appropriate to addressing a package. --Amble (talk) 00:08, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

In handwriting the letter ä may, depending on the language and the individual's handwriting style, look like ā, ã, a̋, ȁ, or something else. However, the orthographies of some languages would demand that the opposition between certain letters be preserved in handwriting. Estonian has both ö and õ, Hungarian has all of ó, ö, ő, ú, ü and ű, and Vietnamese has a whole bunch of diacriticized vowels (see Vietnamese alphabet#Tone marks). --Theurgist (talk) 16:10, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Bugs. In the UK, most people don't bother with diacritic marks either. It's very common to see "cafe" for "café" even on shop signs: see this, this and this. I'm sure that Wikipedia editors set themselves a higher standard though. Alansplodge (talk) 17:57, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

You're skating on very thin ice here, Alansplodge. There are some of us who consider the retention of diacritics in words that have become thoroughly anglicised to be toffy-nosed and pretentious snobbery. I refer here to cases like cafe, role, premiere, debut - and particularly where they become parts of speech other than their original uses. Such as the verbs debuted or premiered. There never were French words such as débuted or premièred, so how can those accents be justified in these words that are English and only English? We don't refer to the Parthenon in writing as Παρθενών, or Moscow as Москва. Well, that would be consistent with insisting on début, rôle, café etc etc. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:07, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I fully support your viewpoint on anglicised words here. But my street name was never anglicised, it's a Finnish word, not an English one. JIP | Talk 20:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

And Häagen-Dazs and Mötley Crüe have done much to reassure people in the Anglosphere that those dots are unimportant decorations. Actually, so have Löwenbräu, but probably not deliberately in their part. (If you ask for [ˈløːvənbʁɔʏ] in most British pubs you'll get a blank look: it's /'ləʊənbraʊ/.) --ColinFine (talk) 18:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

No, if you ask for a /'ləʊənbraʊ/, you get a blank look because it's crap watery beer, like most American brands. When I was in Munich with my Russian and Chinese friends, we called it 'Piss-Wasser'. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 19:00, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

OK, let's make some distinctions here. You've got your basic traditional American lager, Budweiser and Coors and so on, and I completely agree with you on those. My impression is that they're based on the German style, more or less, so it's not too surprising that you'd have the same reaction to Löwenbräu.

But it's entirely unjust to identify those with "American beer" in general, and to ignore the microbrew movement of the last few decades. The center of gravity for innovation in beer is now the United States. --Trovatore (talk) 19:26, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I am a member of CAMRA, so I know beer. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 01:30, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm rather amazed this discussion sparked off to beer. But I have to agree, Löwenbräu tastes very bland. One of the best German beers I have recently had was Augustiner, in the centre of Munich. I'll have to see if it's available here in Finland. There are some very good Finnish beers too, most particularly Keisari ("Emperor") and Kukko ("Rooster"). Most Finnish beers taste bland, but I have found these two to taste very good. JIP | Talk 20:38, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

My favourite is to go into a pub and say "Kann ich ein Bitter haben, bitte?" because I've hated laagers since the Boer War. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:38, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Another point to note here is that in some languages the diacritic version of a letter is considered not just a variant of the "base" letter but an independent letter in its own right, which has its own separate entry in their alphabet. When this fact is combined with the fact that not all countries' versions of the alphabet strictly follow our familiar A,B,C ... Z schema, you're getting into tricky waters. Some alphabets have a certain letter in a certain place, and the diacritic version(s) of that letter somewhere later, not immediately following the base letter. This makes the simple sorting of a group of international names a much trickier task than it may first appear. Or would be if we attempted to honour all those different alphabetical orders. But that would be expecting librarians, lexicographers and ordinary readers to (a) know all these details, and (b) be able to identify at sight the origin of any particular name - and that would be absurd. Hence, in the anglosphere all names with á, à, â, ä, ǎ, ă, ā, ã, å, or ą, are treated for sorting purposes as if they were all simple a's. The widespread and standard convention is to ignore all diacritics when sorting; which explains why when sorting our article Georg Müller, the DEFAULTSORT is set to "Muller, Georg" and not "Müller, Georg", etc etc. It's not surprising to discover that vast numbers of people who are lacking in a knowledge of any languages other than their own extend this approach to all contexts and simply always write all those versions of a as, well, a. Same for all those other weird foreign letters. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

• The obvious solution to the OP's problem is for him not to deal with Anglophone countries, regardless of the ridiculous prices he will pay otherwise. I'd just be happy not to be spelling my a-umlauts with a 'я'. μηδείς (talk) 02:46, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

yokutch language

i am trying to find out how to say "welcome I am going to talk about my home town" in the Yokutch Indian language, for a speech I am working on. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2602:306:CFE8:A980:C5EE:6219:D81A:77C1 (talk) 19:43, 5 February 2014 (UTC)

Do you mean Yokuts language? μηδείς (talk) 01:21, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

February 6

More than once did I meet him in New York.

Is "More than once did I meet him in New York." a correct sentence? Or do I have only to say it in the natural word order like "I met him more than once in New York"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.232 (talk) 02:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

"More than once did I meet him in New York" uses a slightly old-fashioned way of indicating rhetorical emphasis. As a basic non-emphatic sentence it's not correct. As an emphatic sentence, it would depend on the context whether it's stylistically appropriate... AnonMoos (talk) 02:36, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

It's a good way of writing in a novel, for variety, because straightforward sentences get boring. In a joke you might hear it. It wouldn't work for more than the occasional sentence, and it's not for normal speech. μηδείς (talk) 02:44, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

This is the answer to your question above. Yes, it can be inverted, and you have done it correctly. But if you use it in speech, people will think you are being funny. Yoda from Star Wars talks this way. μηδείς (talk) 02:50, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I think Yoda would render it something more along the lines of "more than once meet him in New York I did". Now that I hear that in my head, it sounds Irish, so maybe that's not quite right either. --Trovatore (talk) 09:34, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I thought we had a Yoda speech article--maybe it got deleted. His article does mention in passing that his work order is a very inconsistent OSV. μηδείς (talk) 17:14, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

"Yoda Speak" redirects to Anastrophe... -- AnonMoos (talk) 01:13, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

A term for clothes worn by patients in hospital

Is there a term for clothes worn by patients in hospital? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.232 (talk) 02:19, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

• hospital gown. μηδείς (talk) 02:28, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

• I agree, if what is meant is those one-piece garments that are usually knee-length and with back fastenings. If something else is meant, then it may be better to use the more specific terms mentioned by Andrew below, or use a generic term like "hospital attire". — SMUconlaw (talk) 10:49, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

• Pyjamas, dressing gown? AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:31, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

His mind kept wandering, sometimes to whether... and sometimes to whether...

"His mind kept wandering, sometimes to whether his wife had recovered from her disease,and sometimes to whether his son had got back home safe and sound." Is the above sentence correct in its structure? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.232 (talk) 02:28, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

It's fine. μηδείς (talk) 02:36, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

grudge his apples

When I want to express that he is unwilling to give me some of his apples,can I say that he grudges his apples? Is the verb "grudge" a good choice? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.232 (talk) 02:32, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

The verb in this case is begrudge. "We were best friends, but he has begrudged me my every success since I beat him for the sports scholarship." "He lost the bet, and handed over the money begrudgingly." "My wife loves to bake, but she begrudges every last dollop of cookie dough I steal from the mixing bowl." μηδείς (talk) 02:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Try 'he begrudgingly gave me apples'. AndyTheGrump (talk) 02:44, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, or, "He begrudged me the apples."

Though grudge is not a verb to me, grudging(ly) is normal to me. I wonder why. —Tamfang (talk) 03:43, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

mottled with peeling paint or mottled by the peelings of paint?

Which of the following two sentences is correct? Or both? "The ceiling is mottled with peeling paint." and "The ceiling is mottled by the peelings of paint." — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.232 (talk) 02:59, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

The first. μηδείς (talk) 03:08, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

The sun shines on me heavily.

Can I say "The sun shines on me heavily."? If not, then how about "The sun shines on me with strength"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.211.28 (talk) 07:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's OK as a metaphor if the sun feels oppressive (very rare where I live). Otherwise, why not say "strongly", "intensely" or just "brightly"? Dbfirs 08:45, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

• The use of heavily in this context seems odd to me, and I have never heard it. I would say "the sun shines brightly", or "the sun beats down on me" for stronger, oppressive sunshine. μηδείς (talk) 02:56, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I would use "heavily" like this: "The sun bears down on me heavily", rather than "shines". Still awkward, but not as bad. "Shine" and "heavy" don't make sense together, but other metaphores and terms do work. Mingmingla (talk) 03:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

bank up the grave mound with earth

Is "bank up the grave mound with earth" a proper collocation? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.211.28 (talk) 07:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that sounds OK except that if there is already a grave mound then the grave has already been banked up with earth. (To "bank up" is usually used for a less symmetric collection of earth than a grave mound, but perhaps I am being over-fussy?) Why not just say "augment the grave mound with earth"? Dbfirs 08:50, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Because augment is an odd word to use with earthworks. —Tamfang (talk) 03:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• A much more usual expression would be "shore up the burial mound with earth". μηδείς (talk) 02:54, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

a neighbor patient?

Can I say "a neighbor patient" if a patient stays next to me in a hospital ward? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.211.28 (talk) 07:20, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

"A neighbouring patient" would be the usual way of expressing it. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:29, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

... or "patient in the next bed". Dbfirs 09:48, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

a word in English for the classmate who shares a desk with me

Is there a word in English for the classmate who shares a desk with me? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.181.58 (talk) 07:49, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Deskmate. Deor (talk) 10:21, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

eat congee or drink congee?

Which verb can collocate with "congee", "eat" or "drink"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.181.58 (talk) 07:58, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

If congee is a type of porridge, then you would eat it. --Viennese Waltz 09:59, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Whereas, like soup, you would apparently "drink" it in Chinese (喝, hē). Fut.Perf. ☼ 10:03, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Use of enlist language word 'clicks' in American action movies

In several English language American (USA) movies, characters traveling towards or viewing a distant location or object refer to it as being < a nr of > clicks away' e.g. 'its 20 clicks away'. What does this mean? is it just a deliberate attempt by script writers to be obscure, or does it have precise meaning like 'degrees' (of the compass) or 'radians'? 10:06, 6 February 2014 (UTC)86.133.237.208 (talk)

Usually spelled klicks, it's military slang for kilometers. See the second paragraph of Kilometre. Deor (talk) 10:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Much-used by some science-fiction writers... AnonMoos (talk) 10:48, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Yeah, the first time I (as an adolescent) read it was in The Forever War, and I thought it might mean light-seconds! —Tamfang (talk) 03:47, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

This is sometimes used in normal conversation in Canada - no particular sci-fi or military association. I can only picture old farmers saying it though, so maybe it's a generational thing, or a rural thing...I certainly wouldn't normally say it myself. Adam Bishop (talk) 11:03, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Also seems to be used a lot by Australian cricket commentators when referring to the speed of balls bowled. --TammyMoet (talk) 16:35, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

It's also become a feature of casual speech in non-cricketing contexts. We hardly hear people saying "kilometres an/per hour" except in formal-ish settings. It's usually just (sounds like) "120 kays" or "120 klicks". -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:51, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Sometimes heard in the UK among hillwalkers and mountaineers. Although we're clinging to our Imperial miles as hard as we can, we've had metric maps for about 40 years now, and it's much easier to calculate walking times by Naismith's rule in kilometres. Alansplodge (talk) 21:15, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Foreign monarchs' names translated

I'm vetting the historical content of English-language subtitles for a documentary film that makes brief reference to King William I of the Netherlands as "King William the First." Thinking the Dutch spelling "Willem" might be more correct, I checked through the interwiki links here and found that most languages translate the name. Why is this? I'm accustomed to exonyms and localized spellings for foreign place names, but why aren't historical figures referred to by their "given" name as it appears in their native language? -- Deborahjay (talk) 11:47, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

The main reason, I think, is that European monarchs often have cosmopolitan identities; there is a lot of mixing among royal families, and they usually speak several languages. They also usually have common Christian names that are easily translated into other languages. There are exceptions, though, William II of Germany is usually "Kaiser Wilhelm" (perhaps because of anti-German sentiment); the Ivans of Russia are usually that, and not John (because Russia is seen as exotic, and the name equivalence is not as obvious). Lesgles (talk) 15:05, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Also, I think the tendency to translate the names of foreign monarchs is much less for modern (say, 20th century and after) monarchs than for earlier ones. Nowadays we speak of Juan Carlos of Spain and Willem-Alexander of the Netherlands, but if they had lived 200 years ago we would probably call them John Charles and William Alexander. I think the only monarch whose name is consistently translated nowadays is the Pope. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 16:17, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Into English, maybe. But check through the interwikis for Elizabeth II and you'll find plenty of Elizabeths - but also Alžběta, Isabel, Eilís, and Erzsébet. Even Prince George of Cambridge - the one born last year - is rendered as Jorge, Džordžs, György and Jerzy in different parts of Europe. I don't know why, beyond the vagaries of local custom. Kahastok talk 20:29, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

However, Džordžs is a phonetic transcription of the English plus a nominative case ending ("-s"), as opposed to a Latvian equivalent of the name (Jurģis or Juris). Latvian likes to adapt the spellings of foreign names on a phonetic basis, so that any Anglophone George is Džordžs in Latvian. This applies, to a greater or a lesser extent, for a few other Latin-written languages as well. --Theurgist (talk) 10:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

In English today we tend to take the view that a person's name has one true version, in that person's native language, and any other versions are just translations of the true name. That hasn't always been the case, though, especially in times when (if anything) the most official rendering would be the Latinized one. Even in English, I find that books more than 30-40 years old translate names even in cases where it now seems unnatural or jarring to do so. This is true not only for royalty. In some other languages it's still perfectly standard to translate names. If you look at the interwiki links on a Wikipedia article for Vladimir Putin or Yakov Borisovich Zel'dovich you'll see very different-looking renderings for Russian, Ukrainian, and Belarusian. --Amble (talk) 16:29, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

There are many exceptions to Deborahjay's assertion; take for example Wilhelm II, whom I have never heard called William, although "Kaiser Bill" is still heard occasionally. Also Archduke Franz Ferdinand - "Francis-Ferdinand" would be decidedly odd. Despite what our article says, I have never heard of King Humbert I. It's true that we do say Nicholas II rather than Nikolay. Alansplodge (talk) 17:33, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Robert K. Massie regularly calls the Kaiser "William". I'm not sure if this is just following his usual practice of translating names, or if it's also because he's trying to emphasize the close relationships between the royals in the UK, Germany, and Russia. --Amble (talk) 17:42, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Maybe it's an American thing. He's never called "William" here, as far as I know. Alansplodge (talk) 18:05, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Damn! I've just proved myself wrong. The Last Kaiser: William the Impetuous by Giles MacDonogh. Alansplodge (talk) 18:08, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

VPs

What's the difference between a vice-president and a vice president? The first sentence of vice president makes it sound like a WP:ENGVAR difference, but both spellings seem to appear in American and Commonwealth contexts. For example, the Oxford English Dictionary quotes one American source saying "He is charged with having been long intriguing for the vice presidency," and another American source saying "Suppose there should be three candidates for the presidency, and two for the vice-presidency." Is it perhaps something like ax/axe, which just doesn't have one correct spelling? 2001:18E8:2:28CA:F000:0:0:7A27 (talk) 20:40, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

It varies from dictionary to dictionary. British dictionaries apparently prefer vice-president for all usages. Many American dictionaries prefer vice president. This is likely due to the United States Constitution, which spells the title of the U.S. government officer without a hyphen. One American dictionary, Webster's New World Dictionary, has an entry for Vice President (capitalized), referring to the U.S. government officer, and a second entry for vice-president (hyphenated and lower-case), referring to all other persons with that title. Marco polo (talk) 21:19, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

I suppose that without the hyphen, at a stretch one could interpret "vice president" as president of Vices. Mingmingla (talk) 01:03, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

The use of hyphens evolves. Baseball was originally "base ball" and then "base-ball" before it became a single word. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:36, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Translation request - Chinese

Hi, I was hoping that someone familiar with the appropriate Chinese dialect could please help clear up some of the the content at The Adventures of Little Carp. There are some raw characters, and since it's a kids' article, someone should check that the names are all translated properly (and that we're not saying stuff like, "Little Carp was portrayed by the famous actor Giant Butt".) Thanks in advance! Cyphoidbomb (talk) 20:49, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Seems fine to me, at least based on the Chinese version of the article. I don't know what it means for a name to be translated properly--isn't one name as good as another? For example, I have no idea why 肥鲶鱼 (literally "fat catfish") is translated as Bogart, but it doesn't seem better or worse than Steven or George. --Bowlhover (talk) 02:26, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Russian Text

Hi,
Somebody dumped a massive amount of text in Russian (or another Cyrillic based language, but from the context of the message I suspect Russian) on my user talk. Google translate gave me a nonsensical result, so (as a non-Rusophone) could somebody please translate for me? Thanks!
Sincerely,
Cogito-Ergo-Sum (14) (talk) 22:36, 6 February 2014 (UTC)

Wouldn't it be better for someone to do it as a Rusophone? —Tamfang (talk) 03:57, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

A Russognostic or Russolector is quite enough here.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Here is the text. Раздувание ажиатажа вокруг национальности (наследственности, ДНК, религии,образе мышления) руководителя страны это неконструктивно. Грузины или Китайцы, евреи или чюкчи каждая нация имеет свои национальные особенности заложенные в наследственном аппарате (ДНК). Китайцы , предположительно, наследственно склонны к юмору , грузины к мужской гордости, а евреи к распознаванию чужих мыслей и желаний, впрочем , так же как и арабы, что позволяет удачно вести политические переговоры , торговлю , продавать и покупать выгодно, 1kg Ferei pour 225,- Euro. Для правильной оценки личьных качеств важнее воспитание. Политический лидер США , -прекрасный пример того .

Google Translate isn't as nonsensical to me. I get the impression that the other guy's saying that it's a bad idea to build your idea of cultural differences around nationality or the personality of the country's leaders. He then goes on to reject a few ideas, such as Jews being able to read other men's personalities or Chinese being inherently more funny. He concludes by using Barack Obama as an example of why личьных (privacy? The word's in the article ru:Музей личных коллекций, which Google renders "Museum of Private Collections") is as important as education. Nyttend (talk) 00:05, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

My knowledge of the Russian language is limited, but I found these clues in Wiktionary. Please see under "Declension" or "Conjugation".

wikt:вокруг ("around"), wikt:национальность ("ethnicity"), wikt:ДНК ("DNA"), wikt:религия ("religion"), wikt:образе#Russian ("image"), wikt:мышление ("thinking"), wikt:руководитель ("leader"), wikt:страна#Russian ("country"), wikt:это ("this"), wikt:грузин ("Georgian"), wikt:или ("or"), wikt:китаец ("Chinese"), wikt:еврей ("Hebrew"), wikt:каждый ("each"), wikt:нация ("nation"), wikt:иметь ("to possess"), wikt:свой#Russian (reflexive possessive), wikt:национальный ("national"), wikt:особенность ("characteristic"), wikt:в ("in", etc.), wikt:аппарат ("device"), wikt:предположительно "supposedly"), wikt:склонный ("inclined, addicted"), wikt:к ("toward"), wikt:юмор "humour"), wikt:мужской ("masculine"), wikt:гордость ("pride"), wikt:а#Russian ("but, and"), wikt:чужой ("foreign"), wikt:мысль ("idea"), wikt:и ("and"), wikt:желание#Russian ("desire"), wikt:впрочем ("by the way, however"), wikt:так же "likewise"), wikt:как#Russian ("as"), wikt:араб ("Arab"), wikt:что ("that", conjunction), wikt:позволять ("allow"), wikt:удачно (search: "fortunately"), wikt:вести ("to conduct"), wikt:политический ("political"), wikt:переговоры ("negotiation"), wikt:торговля ("commerce"), wikt:продавать ("to sell"), wikt:покупать ("to buy"), wikt:выгодный ("profitable"), wikt:для#Russian ("for"), wikt:правильный ("correct", adjective), wikt:оценка ("valuation"), wikt:качество ("quality"), wikt:важный ("important"), wikt:воспитание ("education"), wikt:лидер#Russian ("leader"), wikt:США ("USA"), wikt:прекрасный ("splendid"), wikt:пример#Russian ("example"), wikt:тот#Russian ("that", pronoun)

—Wavelength (talk) 01:07, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

личьных качеств seems to mean "of personal qualities". I think the last two sentences are "For a proper evaluation of personal qualities it's an important lesson. The political leader of the USA is a perfect example." By the way, it is not clear to me that the author of this is rejecting the idea that personality traits are connected to genetics. It all hinges on the meaning of предположительно, which according to my dictionary means "hypothetically" or "presumably". I'm not sure that we can trust Google Translate's "supposedly" to imply the author's skepticism. Really we need someone with a good grasp of Russian to say for sure. What time is it in Australia? Jack of Oz may be able to help. Marco polo (talk) 02:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Guys, we have fluent Russian speakers on this desk. You don't need to use Google Translate or post 100 links to dictionary definitions. A fluent speaker can give you a much more accurate translation with 1% the effort. --Bowlhover (talk) 02:35, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Good point. User:Ymblanter notified. Nyttend (talk) 04:17, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

My (non-professionsl) translation: Getting too much hype about ethnicity (heritage, DNA, religion, or the way to think) of a head of a state is not really constructive. Georgians or Chinese, Jews or Chukchi, every nation has its own national features programmed in the DNA code. Presumably Chinese tend to be humorous, Georgians tend to be machist,<--! No such word used, but the context is apparent--> and Jews are good in guessing of thought and desires of others, similarly to Arabs, which let them be successfull in political negociations, in trade, to buy and to sell with profit, 1kg Ferei pour 225,- Euro. To evaluate personal qualities properly one needs education.<--! Not sure what is exactly meant there.--> The US political leader is a good example of this.

Just to add that there are a lot of spelling errors in the text. The meaning is not entirely clear to me (they are obviosly trying to prove some point), but I hope there was some context to it which makes it more clear.--Ymblanter (talk) 06:42, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Is 225 € too expensive or too cheap for 1 kg of Ferei? I didn't know that lamps are sold by weight.--Lüboslóv Yęzýkin (talk) 11:37, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

February 7

wall or walls of the room when I mean the four sides?

Should I say wall or walls of the room when I mean the four sides? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.210.58 (talk) 03:59, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Walls. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:32, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Unless you have a circular room, in which case it would be 'wall'. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

True, but the OP specifically referred to four sides. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:00, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

If you have a room with four walls, and a troll in the room, how many trolls do you have? KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 02:03, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

The bed is propped up by bricks.

In "The bed is propped up by bricks.", is the verbal phrase "prop up" appropriate here? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.134 (talk) 04:10, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

The sentence is fine. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:15, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

lift one foot onto the other knee

Does "lift one foot onto the other knee" make sense? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.134 (talk) 04:14, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Sounds a bit odd, but the meaning is clear. (Who do you know who can put their foot on their "non-other" knee?) Clarityfiend (talk) 05:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

• You could simply say he crossed his leg (singular). That's considered the masculine way of doing it. Strange I can't find any good links for this. μηδείς (talk) 18:42, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

"crossed his leg" sounds weird and unidiomatic to me. Google Ngram supports that "crossed his legs" is far more common in English [5]. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:11, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

The problem is that while "crossed his legs" is the more usual phrase, it's also very often taken to mean sitting with ankles crossed as is considered the feminine way to do this. I suppose I should have said in full, "he crossed his right leg over his left." Or you could say he lifted his ankle to his knee. I also don't find anything wrong at all with the original "lift one foot onto the other knee". I think the problem is that while we have unambiguous terms, like arms folded, ankles crossed, half-lotus, arms akimbo, etc., "legs crossed" is ambiguous. μηδείς (talk) 19:23, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd prefer "opposite knee" rather than "other knee". "Other knee" sounds as if you were just talking about one knee. --50.100.193.107 (talk) 00:28, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

...where by just you mean 'recently', yes? —Tamfang (talk) 03:58, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

I would use a different verb: "Place the [R/L] foot on the [L/R] knee, with the sole of the foot perpendicular to the floor." The "lift" is a tacit part of the action.-- Deborahjay (talk) 12:45, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

difference between rather than and instead of

What is the difference between rather than and instead of? Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.134 (talk) 04:18, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Rather than implies a definite preference. Instead of does not (there might be a preference, but it is not saying so). So I used A rather than B means that I might have used either, but made a choice to use A. I used A instead of B means that I might have used B, but actually used A, without specifying why: perhaps by choice, or perhaps because B was inconvenient, or not available, or didn't fit. --ColinFine (talk) 09:35, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

He is sleeping with the wings of his nose quivering.

Is the sentence "He is sleeping with the wings of his nose quivering" acceptable? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.134 (talk) 04:45, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Only in (bad) poetry. "Nostrils" is the more expected word. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:13, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

No, not even in bad poetry, lol. It would only work in absurdist literature. μηδείς (talk) 18:39, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

recurrent crow(or crows) of roosters

In the phrase "recurrent crow of roosters",should "crow" be plural? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.134 (talk) 05:12, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd say "crowing". Clarityfiend (talk) 05:20, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

There is one more apple in his basket than in mine.

Can I say "There is one more apple in his basket than in mine." or "There is one apple more in his basket than in mine"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.134 (talk) 05:21, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

The first sentence sounds better, though the second is acceptable. Clarityfiend (talk) 05:55, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

a cluster of houses

Can I say "a cluster of houses"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.134 (talk) 05:58, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes. Dbfirs 09:42, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes but it is a rather uncommon usage, in my experience. "A group of houses" would be more common, or if the group has an identity of its own, "hamlet" or "village" might be used, depending on context. DES ^(talk) 17:45, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

A cluster of houses would make sense if you were emphasizing that in a large area without houses there were a small group of homes clustered together. It is a matter of contrast. μηδείς (talk) 18:30, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

fish for a sweet potato in the crack of the ridge

Is there anything wrong with the phrase "fish for a sweet potato in a crack of the ridge"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.178.134 (talk) 06:04, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I've no idea what it might mean. What is the context? Dbfirs 09:45, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

It sounds like "grammatically correct nonsense" to me. It might be instructions to someone in fantasy land on how to get food. The only comment I would make is that "in a crack of the ridge" implies the crack belonging to the ridge - perhaps "a crack in the ridge" would be more appropriate, or "a crack off the ridge" if the crack is located near or comes from the ridge. -- Q Chris (talk) 09:54, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Does no one else get the impression that 222 is just trolling us? It's very amusing, but still... Adam Bishop (talk) 11:07, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

I did wonder about that, but the IP address geolocates to Beijing in China (as does 114.249.211.28), so I assumed that the questioner was someone who was learning English (to a high level of competence) and was checking idioms. Dbfirs 12:46, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Agreed with Dbfirs. These two IP's might do better to post there questions together in one thread, once a day. But they seem like a reasonable attempt to understand idiom, and were not getting any other behavior that would raise flags. μηδείς (talk) 18:32, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Add F and I'm groping for a yam in a corner of the icebox. Jim.henderson (talk) 18:40, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

• It seems this person might be removing dingleberries. μηδείς (talk) 03:35, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Does this make sense? and should I add some stuff more?

"German is used in some official documents, which are accompanied by the Dutch versions." Should I also put this as "Dutch versions of official documents" or is it fine already as it is? Alevero987 (talk) 09:44, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

It's OK as it stands but it sounds a bit awkward to me. I would go with something like "German is used in some official documents, accompanied by their Dutch versions." --Viennese Waltz 13:19, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

What is meant here? If the two languages appear in parallel in the same document, I'd delete "which are" and "versions". If for every official document in German there has to be a Dutch version, is the German version really 'official'? —Tamfang (talk) 04:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

What about this? "German is used in official documents, accompanying their Dutch version" Is this one okay? Alevero987 (talk) 09:20, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

How about "accompanying the Dutch text"? I'd prefer "Some official documents are bilingual in Dutch and German," if that happens to be accurate. —Tamfang (talk) 08:21, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

But they must know that the German language is "used" in official documents, I wonder if this would be good enough already? "German is used in official documents, accompanying their Dutch version" Alevero987 (talk) 08:56, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Leila Fadel

When Leila Fadel does her outro after her stories on NPR, she pronounces her last name as something like "Faldzen", even though all the other hosts clearly use the last name "Fadel". Is this a quirk in Arabic names, or is something else going on here? 12.217.87.18 (talk) 13:51, 7 February 2014 (UTC)

Fadel is "فاضل" in Arabic, so the D is not a D but a Ḍād. See that article for various ways to pronounce it - but it can sound more like a Z in English. Adam Bishop (talk) 00:25, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

As for hearing /n/ for the final consonant, /l/ is unstable for many speakers in certain varieties of Arabic when it appears in an environment with emphatic consonants (in this case, Ḍād as Adam points out), sometimes sounding like ɫ or assimilating to something approximating n. Arabic sounds are hard to hear for people not familiar with the language.--William Thweatt ^TalkContribs 01:48, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

February 8

Any difference between "Don't you know it?" & "Do you not know it?"?

Is there any difference between "Don't you know it?" & "Do you not know it?"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.221.150.157 (talk) 02:59, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

There's no difference of literal of meaning. "Do you not know it?" has a contrastive emphasis. "Don't you know it?" is a straight-out simple question. But if you asked someone "Do you know her opinion?" And they hesitated, "Well..." you might then say, "Well, do you not know it?" Otherwise the uncontracted form is very formal and old fashioned and would not be found in normal speech or even most writing. μηδείς (talk) 03:34, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Why "Somebody said" and the quotation in separate lines?

In novels, I often find "Somebody said" and his or her quotation in separate lines,but I don't know why.For example, Linton cried out:

   "You can't do it!"  — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.221.150.157 (talk) 03:06, 8 February 2014 (UTC) 

Is the formatting above what you intended? Can you refer to a common edition of a common book available in English speaking countries that gives an example of this? Diaog is often given on alternating lines without the speaker identified after the first line:

John said, "Are you coming?"

"Of course," Mary replied.

"Then hurry up."

"Why, are you afraid your wife is about to walk in on us?"

But I cannot think of a common format where "somebody" and what they say are on separate lines. μηδείς (talk) 03:26, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Can "cannot but do sth." & "cannot help doing sth." be used interchangeably?

Can "cannot but do sth." & "cannot help doing sth." be used interchangeably? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.221.150.157 (talk) 03:13, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

They are almost identical in meaning, but they don't have the same connotation. You might say "I cannot but tell the truth, I don't love you any more." to say something you wished you didn't have to say. "I cannot help my midnight-snacking habit" means it is truly involuntary, out of one's control entirely. You wouldn't say, "I cannot help telling you I don't ove you anymore" unless it was untrue, and you did still love the person, but you had some psychological disorder that forced you to say such things. μηδείς (talk) 03:21, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

"Cannot but" has a sense of "only" that "cannot help doing" does not have. "I cannot but eat at midnight" would mean to me that at midnight I can only eat, and "I cannot eat but at midnight" would mean that I could eat only at midnight. I think this ties into a broader construction with a verb+but - "I have but three" ("I only have three") or "I didn't make it but eight miles" ("I only made it eight miles"). It's a tricky little construction, now that I think about it - the placement of "but" is very important. I have not done a formal study, but I think that sometimes this form might sound a little archaic, formal, or dialectical - I don't think everybody uses it.Falconus^{p t c} 04:04, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

in the hot sun or under the hot sun

Which is correct:in the hot sun or under the hot sun? Or both? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.221.150.157 (talk) 03:28, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Both. There's the famous quote, "Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday son." I don't know its origin. μηδείς (talk) 03:48, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Give credit to Noël Coward for "Mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday sun". I don't know about "Only mad dogs and Englishmen go out in the midday son." :) Bielle (talk) 04:59, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

The mipselling's all part of my campaign to ruin the ref desks and drive away users. :) μηδείς (talk) 05:12, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Really? What does a mip sell for these days?--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:25, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Good one. μηδείς (talk) 03:28, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

You left off the intro and a comma: "Only mad dogs... I say, only mad dogs and Englishman go out in the midday, son." ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:33, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Is "go into the night on her way back home" good English?

Is "go into the night on her way back home" good English? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.221.150.157 (talk) 03:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

No. And "she goes into the night on her way back home" is no better. The verb doesn't work. "She walked/drove off..." or "she walked/drove away into the night" is good. μηδείς (talk) 03:51, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

You are assuming past tense... It could be that she is going into the night on her way back home, or that she routinely goes into the night on her way back home. These sentences sound a little odd to me (I don't like the verb "to go" - it strikes me as imprecise), but there is no inherent reason that the sentences have to be in the past tense. Falconus^{p t c} 03:55, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

No, tense is irrelevant, I made no such assumption or implication, and the answer is the same in the present. The verb is the problem, and that's exactly what I said. μηδείς (talk) 05:08, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

If you read this as part of a longer phrase or sentence it makes sense. As in "She chose to go into the night on her way back home". So yes it is good English but needs something else to make it clear. --TammyMoet (talk) 13:20, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's a point that needs to be made clear. Most short, not-entirely-malformed phrases can be made into something that makes sense, if put into the right context. I wonder if we have an article on that. μηδείς (talk) 23:39, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Why do I think this is part of a line from a rock ballad? —Tamfang (talk) 04:09, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

A combination of large album collection and a misspent youth? μηδείς (talk) 01:07, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

And yet I wouldn't expect to find such a line in my collection. —Tamfang (talk) 08:22, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

She clapped her hands: "That's great!"

Can I use a colon after "She clapped her hands" to introduce what she said? For example,"She clapped her hands: "That's great!" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.221.150.157 (talk) 03:47, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

No. Use either a semicolon or a full stop (i.e., period). A colon introduces a list or an example, such as "There are three answers: a, b, and c" or "Read the following:" μηδείς (talk) 03:54, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

He greeted me, "Good morning."

In the following sentence, He greeted me, "Good morning." is the comma used correctly to introduce the quotation? Or should a colon be used instead? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.221.150.157 (talk) 04:15, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

This is correct. Please stop asking the same question. μηδείς (talk) 05:05, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

The apples sold away turned into money.

Is there anything wrong with the sentence "The apples sold away turned into money."? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 221.221.150.157 (talk) 04:04, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

It's not a normal phrase. 'The apples were sold for money' or 'the apples were sold in exchange for money', or 'we made a profit on the apples sold' would work. μηδείς (talk) 04:09, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

(edit conflict):I think it would be better to say "The sale of the apples turned a profit". If you mean that literally (the apple turns into gold or something), consider "The apples that were sold turned into money." Falconus^{p t c} 04:12, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

That's horrible. The apples that were sold did not "turn into money". Unless you mean the buyer found the fruit he was holding turned into coins. μηδείς (talk) 05:10, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

That's exactly what I meant. I said, "If you mean that literally (the apple turns into gold or something)". I offered two suggestions. One was for what I thought the OP probably meant and the other was a literal interpretation of what the OP said in case I was wrong. Falconus^{p t c} 12:20, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

The lack of a period after profit made me think "if you mean that literally" went with the words preceding that phrase, not the words following. μηδείς (talk) 18:09, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Sorry, I fixed it. Falconus^{p t c} 00:22, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

List of items and punctuation

"except for the consents, approvals, authorizations or other actions by, and filings with and notifications to, the Office of the Comptroller"

This is from a corporate law document so I assume the punctuation is correct but I'm confused by what rules of grammar govern the punctuation. Like "and filings with and notifications to" doesn't seem intuitive. Isn't this a list of 3 groups? Gullabile (talk) 08:28, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I think this is a case of a serial comma being omitted. That's usual e.g. in German (you always append the last element with just the "und" or "oder"), but optional in English. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 09:14, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Depends on which comma you're talking about. I think "filings with and notifications to" is one unit, and "consents, approvals, authorizations or other actions by" is another, and both have "the Office of the Comptroller" as the object of the preoposition. I typically use the serial comma, so I would put one after "authorizations", but not after "filings with". If I've understood the intended structure.

Of course, when it gets that convoluted, it's ordinarily better to reword. --Trovatore (talk) 09:25, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I didn't see it as two units but now that makes sense and is clear. But about rewording. How could a sentence like this be reworded and still have the style used by the corporate bar? Gullabile (talk) 09:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Don't ask me. I feel your pain. But to me, that's like saying, "how can I get rid of this headache, but keep hitting myself on the head?" --Trovatore (talk) 10:10, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

It might be more technically correct to omit the commata after by and to, but the first one helps alert the reader that the noun governed by by comes later – after the next comma. —Tamfang (talk) 04:14, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

on the river beach

Is "on the river beach" acceptable in English? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.210.200 (talk) 08:52, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes but needs context. So you might ask "Where is the archaeological dig that found the ancient footprints?" to which the answer "On the river beach." would be short but acceptable.--TammyMoet (talk) 13:21, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

In English, "beach" is usually reserved for fairly wide expanses of sand/gravel/rock with limited vegetation; if you're describing a situation where people are frolicking at the grassy edge of a river, you'd probably say something like "on the river bank" instead. Matt Deres (talk) 13:56, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

In British English, "foreshore" would be more commonly used for the margin of a river. Alansplodge (talk) 16:57, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

Here is a reference for my statement above - Metal Detecting and Digging on the Thames Foreshore. Alansplodge (talk) 00:32, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• "River beach" is not an idiomatic phrase in English. It would be understood, but sound odd. As Matt mentions, the normal term is riverbank. One might say the riverbank formed a beach, or on the beach on the riverbank. μηδείς (talk) 18:05, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

To me, a bank is steep and a beach is not, so they don't go together well. —Tamfang (talk) 04:16, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

This is another word that has two linguistic senses. Google gives

the land alongside or sloping down to a river or lake.
"willows lined the bank"
synonyms: edge, side, shore, coast, embankment, bankside, levee, border, verge, boundary, margin, rim, fringe

so one could say either, "there was an airplane runway along the riverbank", or "he fell off the riverbank to his death" with equal success and two different images of a flat or a steep edge. μηδείς (talk) 19:07, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

BTW, "River Beach" sounds very poetic, and if you do a search on it, you will find it is used as the proper name of pubs, marinas, housing developments, and a school in the UK. It would be a great name for an actress. μηδείς (talk) 19:07, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• In my youth, we would go swimming off beachlike sandbars in the Mississippi River (see the last image in the Sandbar article). I suppose one could call them (river) beaches, but no one ever did—they were just called sandbars. Deor (talk) 18:47, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

There are also the artificial Paris-Plages, but I agree that "river beach" is unidiomatic (though understandable). AndrewWTaylor (talk) 22:41, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

What a taste

Can "What a taste!" be used to express the idea of "How delicious!"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.210.200 (talk) 09:03, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

No. It sounds very odd. "How tasty!" would work. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:22, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

I think "What a taste!" is an OK English sentence, but it could have either a positive or a negative meaning, depending on how it's spoken. Seeing the written sentence in isolation (without surrounding context) might incline towards a negative interpretation... AnonMoos (talk) 12:12, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

This sounds like something you might hear in a restaurant kitchen where a chef cooks five different versions of a sauce and the manager tries them and one is so good he exclaims, "What a taste!" I agree w/AnonMoos it makes sense, and with Clarity that it would be an odd thing to say in a normal circumstance like eating at a friend's house. μηδείς (talk) 18:18, 8 February 2014 (UTC)

It's structurally OK, and, as AnonMoos says, could conceivably mean either good or bad, but I agree with Clarityfiend. A chef whose first language was not English might use it to mean "good"; a chef whose first language was English would more likely just say "Wow" (or "Fantastic", or "Mmmm"), followed by a more analytic description for a good taste, and either spitting noises or just "No" for a bad sauce. For some reason I'm now thinking of a comedy Italian chef saying "Aaai, what a taaeste" in an exaggerated Italian accent. Chefs aside, "what a taste" wouldn't really be used in normal English to mean either good or bad unless for something very extreme, say a raw chilli. Tonywalton ^Talk 01:27, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Agreed with "Wow" or "Fantastic" or "Mmmm". I was going to give the example "Mmmm, this is great. You have to give me the recipe". μηδείς (talk) 19:10, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

On the other hand, an English-speaker might approvingly say "What flavor!" (no article). —Tamfang (talk) 04:28, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

"What a flavour" sounds more appealing than "what a taste", in the same way that "what an aroma" sounds more appealing than "what a smell".--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

A very long time ago I lived in Germany for a while (long enough ago that I could visit the Berlin Wall). German people I met there, who spoke better English than I, said that one of the most difficult aspects of the English language was that English often has several words for a single thing that look to be functionally identical in terms of dictionary definitions but are subtly different in terms of the way they're actually used. "Aroma/smell" (and odo(u)r) are a good example of that. Oh, and "fragrance". And "perfume", and "scent". I have six words in English there where, German, for instance has two (Duft or Geruch). Tonywalton ^Talk 23:06, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, that's a point I bring up when mentioning that English is the world's best language. μηδείς (talk) 01:05, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

February 9

He bent over the desk sleeping.

How to describe precisely the idea of "He bent over the desk sleeping"? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.171.98 (talk) 03:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

He slept with his head on the desk. He laid his head on the desk and slept. He bent over the desk, dreaming of other ways to say it. —Tamfang (talk) 04:18, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

I would go with "slumped over the desk" which gets plenty of Google results. Alansplodge (talk) 17:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

In how many cases is that not the end of a sentence that begins "The victim was found"? —Tamfang (talk) 08:24, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

• "He bent over the desk sleeping" means he was asleep, then he bent over the desk. You may have meant to say "he was sleeping bent over the desk" which describes the position without commenting on how he got in that position. μηδείς (talk) 18:52, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

as thin as a rake, reduced to a shadow

To describe how thin a patient is, can "as thin as a rake" or "reduced to a shadow" be used? Thank you! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 222.128.171.98 (talk) 03:51, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Are you asking whether a doctor would say it? No, they'd say "emaciated". (Are you writing a novel?) "Thin as a rake" is somewhat stale: you wouldn't say it if you intend any originality. "Reduced to a shadow" could describe weight loss but it could also describe a loss of energy resulting from mental trauma. —Tamfang (talk) 04:25, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Thin as a rail is more likely. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:21, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

BB's "thin as a rail" is not common in the UK, where "thin as a rake" is still used. Dbfirs 09:53, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

'Just a bag of bones' is another phrase we would use. Bear in mind, as Tamfang correctly points out, 'emaciated' would be the word used by a doctor, and none of these idioms. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:24, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Thin as a rake doesn't necessarily suggest the contrast that would probably be intended in reference to a patient losing weight due to an illness. In that context, reduced to a shadow of his former self or wasting away [to nothing] might be used colloquially (but would not be used by a doctor as clinical terms).--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:39, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• "She looked like broken glass wrapped in celophane" is a great phrase. μηδείς (talk) 18:49, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

relatives

Does one's wife belong to one's relatives? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.235.46 (talk) 10:21, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

It depends on what you mean. If you mean in the normal sense of English possessives (e.g. my sister-in-law), then yes. If you mean as an actual possession, then not in most modern societies.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:28, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

(EC) She doesn't actually belong to them, in the sense that they would own her, but she becomes a relative to them. So, my wife is my brother's sister-in-law, my mother's daughter-in-law, and for my wife they are her 'brother-in-law' and 'mother-in-law' respectively. She is obviously not a biological relative (unless you are into that, and your jurisdiction permits it), but she would become a relative. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

The phrase belong to doesn't only mean "be the property of", it also means "be a member of the set of". I interpret the question to mean "Does one's wife count as being one's relative?" to which the answer is yes. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:40, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• This is a word that has more than one linguistic sense, either only biological relatives, or family in general. If you said "the relatives gathered to celebrate the wedding", it would be clear from context you were not only including biological relations. If you need to distinguish, the normal way is to contrast "blood relatives" to "relatives by marriage" or kin versus in-laws. μηδείς (talk) 18:46, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

My father's brother is my uncle, whose wife is my aunt (not "aunt-in-law") even though she's not a blood relatives. Anything beyond that, though, is pretty much unambiguously labeled an in-law. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:17, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Old English had four kin terms to describe to describe aunts and uncles, depending on whether the parent's brother or sister was the blood relation; eam, modrige, faedera, fathu. See this chart. People do say "my uncle and his wife" which implies to me a second or late marriage, after the niece or nephew is grown. μηδείς (talk) 20:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Medeis -- that's an example of a "Sudanese" type of kinship terminology (at least in the first ascending generation), as pointed out on that link. It actually has more to do with distinguishing father's side vs. mother's side, rather than aunt and uncle by blood vs. aunt and uncle by marriage. Among modern European languages, Swedish has a similar system which distinguishes between farbror and morbror (father's brother vs. mother's brother)... AnonMoos (talk) 21:19, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Yes, I have a habit of calling my nephew my sisterson after Tolkien, which he likes. μηδείς (talk) 01:01, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

Sure, people even say "my father and his wife" and "my father and his son" when they see their father's new family so rarely that they don't think of those people as their own stepmother and half-brother. Aɴɢʀ (talk) 20:40, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

My father's wife (they married when I was about 30) got a funny look when I once used the word stepmother. Perhaps you have to live under the same roof to be a step-parent. —Tamfang (talk) 08:32, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

He was lost to cancer.

Is "He was lost to cancer." acceptable as an alternative way of saying "He died of cancer."? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.235.46 (talk) 10:25, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

It's an acceptable euphemism, a bit like saying he passed away instead of he died.--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:32, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

You frequently hear "lost the fight (or battle) against cancer". This article says that the phrase can suggest that the victim didn't fight hard enough and that "Many oncologists and cancer patients have been pushing in recent years for a change in the well-meant, but often misguided words and phrases that have become ingrained in the cancer lexicon". Alansplodge (talk) 16:59, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Slightly related, we hear things like "We lost Dad 7 years ago". Which sort of summons up the spirit of Lady Bracknell ("To lose one parent may be regarded as a misfortune. To lose both looks like carelessness"). -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 21:04, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

I'm gonna write a will that cuts out anyone who reports that I died "after a courageous battle with" anything other than an armed gang. —Tamfang (talk) 08:34, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

difference between a wheat field and wheat fields

"Field" often takes the plural form. Should I say "He has a large wheat field." or "He has large wheat fields."? Thank you. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.249.235.46 (talk) 10:29, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

It depends. Does he own more than one field?--Jeffro77 (talk) 10:32, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

If you get a girlfriend and go out more often, you would be able to ask her. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:34, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

"Cat" also often takes the plural form, as do "house", "violin" and "nematode". Jeffro77 has explained why. Tonywalton ^Talk 23:16, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Urban Dictionary

Hi. Is there an equivalent to the Urban Dictionary in Mandarin? Thanks Duomillia (talk) 18:10, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

This isn't quite what you asked for, but Chinasmack's glossary is an equivalent to the Urban Dictionary for Mandarin. Does that help? Matt's talk 21:03, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

What do you call the person who...

This question is a little vague, but any suggestions here might help the person who sends it to me: What do you call the person who commentates on public events, such as Independence Day, Republic Day or any ceremony? Thanks if you have a suggestion. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.106.118.196 (talk) 18:55, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Are you talking about the Master of ceremonies? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 19:12, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

• Do you mean people (from the news/media) actually at the event, holding microphones and dressed for the weather, like they do for the Macy's Thanksgiving Day Parade in NY? "Commentator" would be fine. I don't know if there's a more specific or an industry word for them. μηδείς (talk) 19:15, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Reporter would do, too. —Tamfang (talk) 08:36, 10 February 2014 (UTC)

February 10

doggy speculation

The origin of the English word dog is unknown (though a speculative etymology is given there). It was first used for English mastiffs.

From reading etymologies of English place-names, many of which contain an abbreviated Old English personal name, a hypothesis occurs to me (as it must have occurred to others) that maybe the breed was named for a breeder called Docga; though I haven't come across such a name, it fits the style – as far as I can tell.

So: Who knows enough Old English to say whether Docga could indeed be the short form of an OE personal name? —Tamfang (talk) 08:46, 10 February 2014 (UTC)