Talk:Kamala Harris

Improvement efforts

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CalMatters, San Jose Mercury News & Washington Examiner Are Reliable Sources (WP:RS)

User MrX in recent hours has removed two source citations and User Calton removed one source citation within the Kamala Harris article with inadequate justification. All are Reliable Sources (WP:RS) and tend to support the contentions in the Kamala Harris Wikipedia article for which they are offered to prove.

First, User MrX today removed a citation to CalMatters as an "inappropriate source." See Revision History: "23:03, 1 August 2020‎ MrX talk contribs‎ 179,390 bytes -188‎ Removed inappropriate source" User MrX did not explain what was "inappropriate" about the source or why the source was "inappropriate." The text of the Kamala Harris article that the citation supported reads, "Twelve months later, longtime aide Larry Wallace resigned from Harris's Senate staff after The Sacramento Bee uncovered a $400,000 settlement paid by the State of California for Wallace's sexual harassment of his executive assistant while both worked in Harris's Attorney General office." I offered a CalMatters article by columnist Dan Walters. User MrX offered no explanation as to why this source is "inappropriate" when he/she removed it. Wikipedia editors who delete text should offer more justification than merely three words: "Removed inappropriate source." I assumed this cryptic but conclusory comment to mean that User MrX does not believe CalMatters to be a WP:RS, so I found a major California daily newspaper, ''San Jose Mercury News'' that published this Dan Walters column on or about December 12, 2018.

Second, User Calton removed the aforementioned ''San Jose Mercury News'' citation with the comment "At this point, I think you've made a topic ban necessary." See Revision History: "00:48, 2 August 2020‎ Calton talk contribs‎ 179,390 bytes -374‎ Undid revision 970722299 by Jab73 (talk) At this point, I think you've made a topic ban necessary." I do not understand this comment. One of the ways to justify Wikipedia article text is by citation to WP:RS so that other editors understand that there is "due weight" supporting the text. WP:WEIGHT. A fundamental principle on Wikipedia is "Assuming Good Faith" (WP:AGF). I don't think it's fair for User Calton to threaten sanctions against another editor just because that editor cites to a WP:RS (a mainstream daily newspaper) with which that other editor disagrees. Certainly under WP:AGF, a fellow editor should directly state what WP "crime" that other editor allegedly has committed before wielding some serious WP sanction (WP:TBAN).

Third, User MrX today removed a citation to the ''Washington Examiner'' as a "low quality source," without additional explanation. See Revision History: " 22:59, 1 August 2020‎ MrX talk contribs‎ 179,578 bytes -335‎ rm low quality source". I find no definition of "low quality source" in Wikipedia policies, but I assume that User MrX is alluding to WP:RS. I offered the citation to support WP:WEIGHT of the sentence about Harris's romantic relationship with then-California Assembly Speaker Willie Brown, who officially appointed her (his then-girlfriend) to two well-paid posts on state commissions. The citation that User MrX removed is: "... " In the article "Kamala Harris launched political career with $120K 'patronage' job from boyfriend Willie Brown" dated June 1, 2019 by Alana Goodman, the ''Washington Examiner'' apparently conducted original reporting on the work that Harris did on the California Medical Commission, interviewing other commissioners including Sandra Smoley. All of the interviews in the article apparently were "on the record," with quotations attributed to specific individuals. This article is a piece of original journalism by an "investigative political reporter," reporting original facts from primary sources. The article refers to "commission records obtained by the Washington Examiner." The article refers to these records: "Brown, in a letter to Harris, wrote that he was “pleased to appoint” her to the board, which oversaw the payment of insurance providers for state-subsidized MediCal recipients. “I am confident that your knowledge and experience will contribute significantly to the important work of the Commission,” he wrote." The article states that it attempted to hear Harris's side of the story: "Harris' campaign did not respond to requests to comment." The article itself is not a "low quality source" (whatever User MrX meant by that). It appears to satisfy the WP:NEWSORG policy: "Whether a specific news story is reliable for a fact or statement should be examined on a case-by-case basis." I believe that this article meets that standard. As for the ''Washington Examiner'' as a news organization, I believe that it qualifies for WP:RS. WP:NEWSORG : "News reporting from well-established news outlets is generally considered to be reliable for statements of fact (though even the most reputable reporting sometimes contains errors)."

I would like Users MrX and Calton to justify their removal of these sources, so that consensus can be reached about CalMatters, ''San Jose Mercury News'', and ''Washington Examiner'' and the proposed citations to them as WP:RS. When material in an article is denied the ability to cite sources for support, the next editor could more easily justify removal of article text as WP:RS, WP:NPOV and/or WP:RSUW. It's unfair to other editors to delete their contributions with cryptic, minimal, or no justification and threats of serious WP sanctions like WP:TBAN. Jab73 (talk) 05:57, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Seriously, tl;dr I stand by what wrote in my edit summaries. WP:ONUS applies, as I know you have been advised many times. - MrX 🖋 11:47, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

A brief word: Im going to limit myself to the reliable source discussion the use of the ''Washington Examiner'' article. I going to make no comment on the edit itself. The ''Washington Examiner'' has a bias, like nearly every journalistic outlet. It's right wing. I don't think that makes it unreliable, but for a fuller analysis, you gotta know that going in. Just because the ''Washington Examiner'' is a reliable source does not make everything they publish citable. The article is a hit piece, full of rumor, gossip and innuendo. It really should not have come into play here. Rklahn (talk) 17:01, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Per the RS notice board, "There is no consensus on the reliability of the Washington Examiner, but there is consensus that it should not be used to substantiate exceptional claims. Almost all editors consider the Washington Examiner a partisan source and believe that statements from this publication should be attributed. The Washington Examiner publishes opinion columns, which should be handled with the appropriate guideline." ValarianB (talk) 19:42, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

Jab73, I'm inclined to agree with you on Mercury News being an RS, but do you have any comment on how this particular article (which they note is an opinion piece, republished from CalMatters) should be evaluated under WP:RSOPINION? The Dan Walters article references the sacbee article which is already used as a citation, and is probably a better primary source. -- Norvy (talk) 22:24, 2 August 2020 (UTC)

• I intend to remove this opinion article cite from calmatters.org that was just reverted back into the article per WP:BLPSOURCES, unless someone beats me to it. - MrX 🖋 16:42, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

  MrX, I beat you to it. – Muboshgu (talk) 17:11, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

  Thank you Muboshgu. - MrX 🖋 17:30, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• The Mercury News is a reliable source, but the content you're trying to include is a column, not an article, and is subject to WP:RSEDITORIAL. As to the Washington Examiner, here is what our entry at WP:RSP states: "There is no consensus on the reliability of the Washington Examiner, but there is consensus that it should not be used to substantiate exceptional claims. Almost all editors consider the Washington Examiner a partisan source and believe that statements from this publication should be attributed." Calidum 17:14, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

Seconding Calidum's point on WP:RSP. When challenged by other editors, the Examiner is not a sufficient source, particularly on a WP:BLP. RedHotPear (talk) 16:20, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

• Please strive for brevity rather than lengthy walls of text. I agree with MrX and the others. The Washington Examiner = a mediocre source at best that should certainly be avoided for contentious claims, biographies of living persons, etc. The Dan Walters column (which was published in The Mercury News and republished in CalMatters) piece = equals an opinion piece (it is labeled "commentary"), so not really a usable source for factual statements in Wikipedia's own voice. Neutrality^talk 18:00, 3 August 2020 (UTC)

• Dan Walters is a respected analyst of California politics going back decades and I am surprised that there is no Wikipedia article about him. I have learned a lot by reading his work since the 1970s. But these days, he is a purveyor of opinions (which is fine) rather than a straight news reporter. Anything he says in his opinion columns needs to be attributed in the text as his opinion, not as a statement of facts. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 01:28, 5 August 2020 (UTC)

Racial categorisation of Kamala Harris

How exactly can you describe someone with south-asian ancestry as 'African American'?

Does this term now mean 'black', 'dark skinned', or simply 'non-white'?

Please, this is disrespectful to people from the Indian sub-continent who have their own very distinct identities. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.0.237.39 (talk) 13:26, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

In the case of categorization of Sen. Harris, it's complex, and without getting too high handed, reflects upon the state of race in America. Yes, she is of South Asian ancestry, and also of African heritage, via Jamaica. But, and I think this is the important part, she identifies as African-American. And in the desegregation program in the Berkeley schools, was treated as if she was African American. But I understand this might be disrespectful to South Asians. but I think thats out of scope on this page. Drop me a note on my talk page, or an Echo on yours, and we can continue this further. Rklahn (talk) 14:27, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

As the African-American article notes, "African Americans (also referred to as Black Americans or Afro-Americans) are an ethnic group of Americans with total or partial ancestry from any of the black racial groups of Africa. The term African American generally denotes descendants of enslaved black people who are from the United States."

Many embrace being African American as a part of Black pride. Yet there is also the legacy of the one-drop rule.

IMHO, we have much to learn & grow around this in America.

Please see the following citation for Harris's own take on her ethnic background.

• Sullivan, Kevin (2019-02-02). "'I am who I am': Kamala Harris, daughter of Indian and Jamaican immigrants, defines herself simply as 'American'". Washington Post. Retrieved 2020-08-07.

Peaceray (talk) 14:46, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

It's not a problem at all. She is described as South Asian as well.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 16:37, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I think the question here is how she identifies, and in the Washington Post article she says '“My mother understood very well that she was raising two black daughters,” Harris writes in her recently published autobiography, “The Truths We Hold.” “She knew that her adopted homeland would see Maya and me as black girls, and she was determined to make sure we would grow into confident, proud black women.”' I think we need to refer to her as black throughout, with ancestry treated separately. —valereee (talk) 18:13, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

References

That seems like a reasonable premise. El_C 18:16, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree, a reasonable approach. Identity and ancestry are two different things. Behind OPs statement there may be an implication that we are being Amerocentric, and this is an encyclopedia, not an American encyclopedia. I agree. Rklahn (talk) 18:32, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm not involved enough to know what's going on here, but I just want to make sure that she is still described as Indian and Jamaican as well. Someone can be more than one ethnicity at the same time. —Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 19:59, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

Naddruf, it shouldn't be any issue at all to describe her both as a black woman and as a woman of Indian and Jamaican ethnicity/descent. —valereee (talk) 20:55, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

It is fine to include multiple descriptors here. But to be clear, "African-American" is the predominant identity of hers, and it is not problematic to use this. It is not an insult to South Asians to use "African-American" to describe her, even though it is certainly the case that other identity labels may also be justifiable. RedHotPear (talk) 03:38, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Another inane WP discussion. She identifies as African-American. End of story. Please don't rehearse tired old banalities about who is black who is African-American. Please also don't imply (if you are doing so) for the hundredth time the other pieties about whether the Middle-Passage is a sine qua non for being one or another, whether rum, cod, and slavery are the sine qua nons. By any definition, she is more African-American (in the traditional meaning of the word) than Barak Obama is. So if you are particularly hurting about unloading the monkeys of old-fashioned bias off your backs, go to the Barak Obama page and turn him into a Kenyan-Kansan president with no history of slavery. What is the matter with Wikipedians? If it is not old-fashioned racism, it is the kind that makes Indians (and I don't mean any WP editor) unload their insecurities about being equated with blacks (the Lord forbid). Obviously her South Asian Indian mother did not have those insecurities, and she does not have either. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:32, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, do you have a source for her identifying as AA rather than as Black? —valereee (talk) 02:55, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Not Fowler, but I just am not sure how important the distinction is here. Some want "African American" to be restricted in meaning to "descendant of slaves," but Harris herself uses the terms interchangeably, and she clearly identifies with the African-American community. Reliable sources also frequently refer to her as the first "African American" to do/be X, etc. ([1], [2]) RedHotPear (talk) 03:29, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Race is not a biological category but a social construct. In other words, society, not their pedigree, determines a person's race. TFD (talk) 05:39, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I found TFD's statement very influential. Where I said ancestry, above, I meant ethnicity. I was less than precise, and regret the error. We should not stray away from Sen. Harris' self identification. Rklahn (talk) 06:55, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I have partially reverted a recent edit which used misleading edit summary and unilaterally changed "Indian American" to "South Asian American". Per Google searches, reliable sources refer to her as "Indian American" at least 100 times more than "South Asian American" so we need to stick to common interpretation. To name a few, CNN[3], Washington Post[4], Politico[5], LA Times[6] and many other sources are very clear with using "Indian-American". SignificantPBD (talk) 16:54, 7 August 2020 (UTC)

See her own pages, both in the US Senate and her website, now cited in the lead. The usual Indian nationalism, or sub-nationalisms, have no value on Wikipedia. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:35, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

African-American is clearly the main identity of hers that this article should address. When it comes to other identities, why not avoid the "Indian-American" vs. "South Asian American" distinction together and go with "Asian-American," the broader category? This broader description seems to be echoed in RS coverage. RedHotPear (talk) 03:13, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

RedHotPear, "Asian" is a very broad term and unpopular compared to "Indian-American". This scholarly source from Harvard University Press also refers to her as "Indian American". We need to check what reliable sources say and the person in question. The sources noted above are of high quality and they leave no doubt.

Fowler, your personal bias "has no value on Wikipedia". Kamal Harris says "My Indian mother knew she was raising two black daughters .... But that’s not to the exclusion of who I am in terms of my Indian heritage".[7] When asked "You're African-American, but you're also Indian-American," Kamala Harris replied "Indeed", she also said that her African American and Indian heritage "are of equal weight in terms of who I am."[8] But you are just POV pushing and misrepresenting this source which makes no mention of "South Asian". I am afraid your poor comprehension skills violate WP:DE. You are also edit warring and ignoring that the page said "Indian American" until you modified it recently by providing misleading edit summaries. Read the top notice of this talk page and stop adding POV terms without gaining consensus. Riddhidev BISWAS (talk) 07:02, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Im really tempted to do a partial undo here, but Im going to let things develop a little more. I think we are clear on "African-American", less so on "Indian American" vs. "South Asian-American". The citations are, unfortunately, silent on how she refers to herself. So is https://kamalaharris.org/meet-kamala-harris/, which is in advocacy of her. https://www.harris.senate.gov/about leads you to "South Asian-American". This is a messy area that needs time for reflection, time is not of the essence here. Also, can we do a little more Assume good faith on the part of other editors? Rklahn (talk) 08:47, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Race, as has long been said, and wisely said again above by TFD and Rklahn, is a social construct. However, naming these social constructs is a fraught issue. For example, in more formal contexts "African American" is preferred to "Black." In a submission to the Supreme Court, a petitioner will most likely prefer "African American" to "Black" in the lead paragraph, but in whispering to their lawyer will most likely use "black." Similarly, "Indigenous American," or "Native American" is the more formal version of "Indian." Again, even today in informal contexts Native Americans refer to each other or their culture as "Indian." (The lawyer representing the Muscogee Nation in the recent US Supreme Court decision on Oklahoma being half Native American land says in a Youtube video, "I'm delighted to be back in Indian country.") The reason for the two levels of reference is that the formal name is usually a mouthful. So, the same person will be found using both terms be they "African American" (formal) or "Black" (informal), "Native American" (formal) or "Indian" (informal).

Also, the modern convention is to refer to ethnicities by the broad regional categories of ancestry, not by the names of the modern nations to which ancestral link might be determined. The broad regions are: Latin America (i.e. regions of the Americas in which the Romance languages (Spanish, Portuguese, and French) are spoken)), Europe, Africa, and Asia (which is usually split into West Asia, South Asia, Southeast Asia, and East Asia), and perhaps Australasia. The reason for this is that the ethnicities were established long before the modern nations took shape. So, South Asia is preferred to India (not to mention the additional confusion that might result from the usage referred to above).

So, summing up, Kamala Harris's father was born in Jamaica, and his ancestry is African (i.e. he is not the odd Jamaican White); her mother was born in the British Indian Empire (which then comprised present-day India, Pakistan, and Bangladesh) and her ancestry is South Asian. It is unimportant that the British Raj had decolonized by the time she came to the US, and that she most likely arrived with a passport of the Republic of India; her ethnicity is still South Asian for the reasons given above. Furthermore, KH's self-identification is African-American or Black. She has said very poignantly, "I was born Black and I will die Black." So, in our description there will be an order: "African American" first, and "South Asian American" second, but the latter only if needed. I should warn that if she does become Biden's choice of VP, this page will receive far more attention by editors promoting the various POVs about race and gender that have traditionally riven both American and South Asian societies. Various POVs will both disown her and claim her for their own. We have to be especially careful about preserving the NPOV descriptions. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 12:26, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

PS For the editors who might be thinking that I've come here with a naive or ignorant view of India, let me add (though there should normally be no reason for this) that I am the primary author of the FA India. I am well-versed in the nationalism (not to mention sub-nationalism, e.g. "Gujarati," "Tamil" or "Bengali") that India-POV editors attempt to promote in many things related to South Asia. See for example the pages Pilaf or Shalwar kameez, where "South Asia" is now established, but a year ago was subject to constant edit-warring by editors wanting to change "South Asia" to "India." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:07, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Fowler, I do not think you are naive or ignorant at all. I have also seen nationalist POV-pushing of the type you describe on issues related to India, and it is something to be watchful for, though I cannot definitively say that I already identify it on this talk page. I completely agree with you when you say that "African American" should come first, and when warranted, other identities should follow. Riddhidev BISWAS, it is absolutely not the case that the balance of reliable sources indicates that her "Indian-American" identity is equally notable. RedHotPear (talk) 14:22, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

I see that someone, probably the editor you mention, has reinstated "Indian American." I would submit that the term "Indian American" if it is to be used at all should be applied to people born in India who have become naturalized citizens of the United States. Otherwise, for ethnicity, as I've already stated above, the broad category is "South Asia." ("Asian American" would be confusing because in the US it has traditionally been applied to East Asian Americans (i.e. those with Chinese or Japanese ancestry). There is good reason that all the former "India studies," "Indian studies," or "Indology" academic departments around the world have changed their names to "South Asian Studies." See Harvard, Berkeley, Yale, University of Chicago, Princeton, Cambridge, Oxford, ... it is a long, long, list. Anyway, I am on vacation; this is all the time I have. I've laid out my argument. I think the usage "South Asian American" should be preferred to "Indian American" for the reasons that I have given at length. Thanks everyone. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:44, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

That seems off-topic, but I would add that I don't see anybody ever changed "Indian" to "South Asian" on this article except you. So I don't think that will be the case.

Rklahn, the two interviews of Kamala Harris[9][10] linked above are absolutely clear about her self-identification as "Indian-American". TFD was also referring to the same Washington Post interview. I think we must abide by the status quo here. SignificantPBD (talk) 16:13, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

For heaven's sakes, her own US Senate Website says, "South Asian American." Your citations are incorrect. In neither of those two articles (the LA Times and the Washington Post) does she herself use the expression "Indian American." Moreover, in her book, The Truths We Hold, she does not once use the expression "Indian American." However she does use "South Asian:"

My mother, grandparents, aunts, and uncle instilled us with pride in our South Asian roots.

Note: here we have a new editor, registered in May 2020, with 102 edits, who is attempting to lay down the law. It doesn't matter that I'm the primary author of India, British Raj, Company rule in India, British India, Partition of India, Indian mathematics, Indus Valley Civilisation (which was most likely a Dravidian civilization) ... it is a long list, which includes the FA Political history of Mysore and Coorg (1565–1760), a region adjacent to the Dravidian-speaking region from which where KH's mother hails. All this experience and record is of no value in Wikipedia discussions. Go figure. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 16:28, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

Im afraid I disagree about the conclusion here. The LA Times article only comes close when it quotes Sen. Harris saying "But that’s not to the exclusion of who I am in terms of my Indian heritage." Two points: 1) Heritage is not identity. 2) The subtext about this article is race, and has already been said, thats a social construct, not identity either. I find this particular LA Times article dubious as a source on identity. The Post article goes further in this regard. In the headline "Kamala Harris, daughter of Indian and Jamaican immigrants, defines herself simply as ‘American’" she goes as far as to decline Indian identify. Now, the direction this should go is clear to me: "South Asian American". Its the only thing Ive seen where she identifies her identity, from her own US Senate Website. I really tried to see both sides here, but am now in a position where I can draw the "South Asian American" conclusion. Rklahn (talk) 21:27, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

@RedHotPear: I am agreeable for "South Asian American" to be changed to "Asian and Pacific American" but she will then be the eighth Asian and Pacific American Senator (jointly eighth with Tammy Duckworth of Illinois who also assumed office in January 2017). Please see the usage in this citation, which is being cited for "Indian American" in this edit! Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:18, 8 August 2020 (UTC)

We need to use terminology that conveys meaning to readers. Presumably readers have heard of Indian, but they may not be familiar with terms such as Asian Pacific and South Asian. Also, those terms may have different meanings depending on the user, and different terms may be used in different countries. For example, in the UK the term Asian is used to describe India and its neighbors, while in the U.S. it is used to describe China and its neighbors. TFD (talk) 21:54, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

For a large number of readers in the US, Indian = Native American; it does most certainly for Native Americans themselves in everyday use. "Asian" in the US and UK respectively has the meaning of the region from which Asian immigrants first appeared on the shores of those countries. National or sub-national jargon, however, is not a criterion for encyclopedicity. Precision is in the first description in a lead paragraph, and "South Asian" is precise; later, in the main body, it can be elucidated with "Indian," particularized with "South Indian," or even more with "Tamil." "South Asian" is unambiguous and is the NPOV usage worldwide now, used in scholarly writing and by international organizations. It is used by the California Department of Justice in its page on their former Attorney General Kamala Harris. When I have some time I will make a list of its use in the formal register by various sources. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:33, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

PS Another point, when we use the adjective "first," we want to apply it to the largest ambit of its use. South Asia = India + Pakistan + Bangladesh + Nepal + Bhutan + Afghanistan + Sri Lanka + the Maldives is quite a bit larger than India. She is the first South Asian, not just the first person of Indian, South Indian or Tamil ethnic ancestry in those offices. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:41, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

PPS Although I had used the link before I was reverted, it bears mentioning here on the talk page that South Asian American, which pipes to its plural, does exist on Wikipedia, and does a good job of explaining the term. Please also read both paragraphs of the section: Indian_Americans#Terminology about the pitfalls of that term's use. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 23:59, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

Just a quick note that I found Fowler's "PS" point to be quite a good one. I encourage others to consider it as well. RedHotPear (talk) 14:47, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@Peaceray:, @The Four Deuces:, @Rklahn:, @Riddhidev BISWAS:, @SignificantPBD:, @RedHotPear:, @Valereee:, @Naddruf:, also pinging admins with South Asia experience @El C: and @RegentsPark: I will be changing Indian American in the lead paragraph to South Asian American for a variety of reasons (all offered above), but mostly for the fact of term "Indian American" being both ambiguous and informal (best explained in Indian_Americans#Terminology). Her own senate website (see above), as well as the California Department of Justice site (also see above) about her tenure as their 32nd AG, use "South Asian American" only. If Joe Biden does choose her to be his running mate, this page will attract even more attention; it is best to choose the more precise terminology now. More precisely, I will be changing the sentence:

A member of the Democratic Party, Harris is the second African American woman and the first Indian American to serve in the United States Senate., ( which is problematic also because the first citation makes no mention of "Second African American woman," senator only of "first African-American to represent California in the Senate" and the second talks about Asian and Pacific Islands Americans (and as I've remarked before she is the eighth API-American senator (jointly with Tammy Duckworth)), but makes no mention of Indian-Americans.)

to

A member of the Democratic Party, Harris is the second African American woman and the first South Asian American to serve in the United States Senate.

Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 14:34, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

References

I do not feel very strongly, but your change seems fine. You make a good case that "Indian American," while popularly used, may be informal and imprecise in this situation. RedHotPear (talk) 14:42, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I think either of these are good, but I agree that it is better to say the "first South Asian American" in the lead. South Asian American is a broader category than Indian American. Otherwise it would be plausible that there could have already been a Pakistani American or Bangladeshi American, etc. in Congress.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 16:13, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I second this. RedHotPear (talk) 17:20, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I am on board with this. I hope that others see this as the consensus. Also, thank you Fowler&fowler for the ping. Rklahn (talk) 19:29, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

@RedHotPear, Rklahn, and The Four Deuces: Contrary to Fowler&fowler's blatant misrepresentation of Kamala Harris' book "Moreover, in her book, The Truths We Hold, she does not once use the expression "Indian" needs to be ignored since the actual quote of Kamala Harris is:

My mother, grandparents, aunts, and uncle instilled us with pride in our South Asian roots. Our classical Indian names harked back to our heritage, and we were raised with a strong awareness of and appreciation for Indian culture.[11]

This source does not qualify for "South Asian American" over "Indian American" and she has mentioned "Indian" two times right there. She also mentions her husband Douglas Emhoff in her book and writes:

Doug and I were married on Friday, August 22, 2014, in an intimate ceremony with the people we loved. Maya officiated; Meena read from Maya Angelou. In keeping with our respective Indian and Jewish heritage, I put a flower garland around Doug's neck..."[12]

She is very clear about her "Indian" heritage, so why we shouldn't be? @Fowler, you must stop edit warring and stop bragging about your contributions on other off-topic articles. This edit warring without gaining WP:CON, continuous blugeoning and canvassing isn't going to help you in denying these two interviews of Kamala Harris[13][14] which are absolutely clear about her self-identification as "Indian-American". Reliable sources refer to her as "Indian American" more than hundreds of times than "South Asian American". Unless we are seriously questioning the reliability of CNN[15], Washington Post[16], Politico[17], LA Times[18] US News,[19] ABC News,[20] The Hill,[21] and thousands of other WP:RS, which also identify her as "Indian American" but not "South Asian American", I clearly don't see a single reason to pick "South Asian" (which can also mean Pakistani, Afghanistani, Bangladeshi) than more specific and much more common term "Indian". There is no need for this page to be different than the rest of the Wikipedia or the world. SignificantPBD (talk) 17:10, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

What concerns me is that most readers may not know what South Asia refers to. I had to look it up, although I was aware of India. Does it include Saudi Arabia and Vietnam for example. If you use the term, the text should provide an explanation. For example, she is the "first South Asian American" (Asian American includes India and neighboring countries)." TFD (talk) 17:33, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Why? We can assume people will click on links; that's the whole point of links. And you don't even have to click; when I look at this article without logging in, if I hover over the words South Asian American, I get a popup that tells me where they are from. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 18:00, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree. Of all the terms used on Wikipedia that are not explicitly explained, South Asia hardly stands out as obscure. Indeed, much of its meaning is reflected in its words; the link should be sufficient. RedHotPear (talk) 19:35, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

In fact, the FA India, Wikipedia's oldest country FA, which I have primarily written and been managing for 13 years, says in its first sentence: India is a country in South Asia. South Asia is the modern term, corresponding to the five divisions of Asia: West Asia (to which Saudi Arabia, Iran, Turkey (the eastern half), Jordan, Israel, ... belong), Central Asia (Tajikistan, Azerbaijan, Kirgizstan, ...), South Asia (Afghanistan, Pakistan, India, Nepal, Sri Lanka, the Maldives, Bhutan, and Bangladesh), Southeast Asia (Burma, Thailand, Laos, Thailand, Cambodia, Vietnam, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore, and the Philippines) and East Asia (China, Japan, the Koreas, ...) All United Nations agencies use those terms. The old western-centric terms (Middle East, Far East) are passe. The CNN announcement of a few minutes ago says "South Asian American." India-POV editors (by which I don't mean editors of Indian heritage) have for years on WP been promoting the use of "India" or "Indian" as in Indian subcontinent, but those terms are now outdated. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 20:45, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm an uninvolved editor, and I'm not taking a position in this debate regarding Indian-American vs South Asian American. I just want to ask Fowler&fowler why they feel it's necessary to keep pointing out they've made significant contributions to other articles about India on here? As far as I'm aware, your contributions there - although I'm sure are very positive and beneficial (I must admit, I haven't looked at them) - are pretty much irrelevant here (WP:CAU, I know it's just an essay). I'm sure the decision on "Indian" or "South-Asian" will be much better served if editors stick to that discussion, and the sources found for Harris's ethnicity/race. Seagull123 Φ 21:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Very true. How we forget.  :) Thanks for the reminder. I've scratched the last bit. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:00, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

• I favor the formulation proposed above: "A member of the Democratic Party, Harris is the second African American woman and the first South Asian American to serve in the United States Senate." -- MelanieN (talk) 21:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I would like to add that the term "South Asia" is used only when there is something mutually shared between India and Pakistan (or Bangladesh, Sri Lanka) but cannot be undoubtedly associated with either country due to their recent partitions from each other. In this case, there is no doubt that she has "Indian" roots as she has herself confirmed in her book and interviews. Thus "Indian American" is much more appropriate. Also, see this recent source which discusses her self-identification of Indian and African ancestry. Zakaria1978 (talk) 01:06, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, you shouldn't be claiming consensus when several editors have reverted you and enough editors have objected the disputed edits in question. The article is using "Indian American" since 2017.[22] I don't see why you have to come up with "South Asian American" all of sudden contrary to the sources discussing her self-identification. Zakaria1978 (talk) 01:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978 Please do not misinform the readers about what South Asia means. Wikipedia can plainly see it in the link. Please also read her US Senate website which clearly states "South Asian American." Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:50, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, kindly speak to me properly. Do not speak to me in such a disparaging tone. Don't breach WP:Civility and WP:NPA. I have been saying to use Asian Americans, and have debated it extensively. But, you are the one who put South Asian Americans. Her stating South Asian American on her website was just a distinction, as she is the only one, nothing more I can see on this web link. Her identity is Asian American or Indian American, since her mom was from India. That is what I can clearly confirm. Zakaria1978 (talk) 02:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Also, Fowler&fowler, do not say stuff like this: "If it is not old-fashioned racism, it is the kind that makes Indians (and I don't mean any WP editor) unload their insecurities about being equated with blacks (the Lord forbid)." That is pretty blanket and bigoted statement to make. I have many Indian friends where I live, they don't all think like that. Zakaria1978 (talk) 02:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

And to be clear, I am definitely correct with my definition of "South Asia". You have ignored the sources where she is identifying herself as "Indian" which is more specific term than "South Asia" which is certainly too broad and can create confusion. While I am not opposed to using "Asian American" for lead, it still makes no sense to refer to her as "South Asian" when she identifies as "Indian". Why did you expand about her ancestry on 2nd paragraph of the lead? Zakaria1978 (talk) 02:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Again, please read her US senate website. It says, "In 2017, Kamala D. Harris was sworn in as a United States Senator for California, the second African-American woman and first South Asian-American senator in history." Please aalso see the California Department of Justice's page on their 32nd Attorney General, which states, "In 2004-2010, Kamala Harris served as the first woman District Attorney in San Francisco's history, and as the first African American woman and South Asian American woman in California to hold the office." What is that? Chopped liver? Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:45, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

PS Sorry that last description was for District Attorney of San Francisco. Here is the one for AG of California: "Harris is the first woman, and the first African American and the first South Asian American, to hold the office of Attorney General in the history of California." (See here). Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:52, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

NYT on Harris and police miscounduct

Here's the New York Times story about Harris' record on police misconduct:

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/09/us/politics/kamala-harris-policing.html

‘Top Cop’ Kamala Harris’s Record of Policing the Police

By Danny Hakim, Stephanie Saul and Richard A. Oppel Jr.

New York Times

Aug. 9, 2020

According to the New York Times, Harris "struggled to reconcile her calls for reform with her record on these same issues during a long career in law enforcement...."

Since becoming California’s attorney general in 2011, she had largely avoided intervening in cases involving killings by the police. Protesters in Oakland distributed fliers saying: “Tell California Attorney General Kamala Harris to prosecute killer cops! It’s her job!”

After the 2014 killing of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo., she was asked to investigate a series of police shootings in San Francisco, where she had previously been district attorney. She said it was not her job.

Critics said she was "taking cautious, incremental action on criminal justice and, more often than not, yielding to the status quo."

In 2009, she wrote that she would like to see more police officers on the street. After the George Floyd killing, she said that the idea that putting more police on the street is "just wrong."

In 2007, she did not support legislation granting public access to disciplinary hearings. Anaheim mayor Tom Tait said that in July 2012 after an unarmed 25-year-old, Manuel Diaz, was fatally shot in the back by the police, there were hundreds of protesters at City Hall. He asked Harris to conduct an outside investigation, and she refused.

In 2015, Harris refused to endorse AB-86, which would have required her office to appoint special prosecutors to examine fatal police shootings.

--Nbauman (talk) 18:04, 9 August 2020 (UTC)

What improvements are you recommending for the article? --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 15:00, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

I would revise the https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kamala_Harris#Law_enforcement_accountability section, replacing the trivial details with a summary of the substantive issues, which the NYT story does a good job of outlining.

For example, I would cut the discussion of "Principled Policing: Procedural Justice and Implicit Bias," because there have been many programs like this, and when they have been studied, they don't affect meaningful outcomes -- specifically unnecessary civilian deaths, civilian complaints, and abuses. The only evaluation they have is subjective evaluations by participants [23] The KQED stories cited are just official statements, with no critics or evaluation. What do WP:RSs say about the program?

I would search the Washington Post, since they have good coverage of criminology, especially by Radley Balko.

There's too much detail about Rackauckas, etc., and it should be shorted to focus on Harris' role.

It should also address for example whether WP:RSs say that Harris' statistics effort was effective or ineffective. ProPublica tried to collect police statistics around the country, and found that they were inadequate. Is this true of California?

Generally, the NYT story is useful because it shows you how to write about police misconduct. If I were an editor assigning a writer to do a story about Kamela Harris and police misconduct, I would hand them this story and say, "Use this as a model."

I am generally reluctant to work on Wikipedia pages about popular figures, because there are usually editors who have strong feelings, and have effectively owned the pages. I'd rather find out first whether it's possible to to edit the Wikipedia page without an edit war. I don't feel like spending an afternoon writing a balanced, objective WP:NPOV story only to have an editor revert everything and replace it with the original press releases. --Nbauman (talk) 18:30, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Well, also, we're not a newspaper. What the NYT finds appropriate for an article isn't necessarily what Wikipedia finds appropriate for an article. And if you want to make large changes, run them by the talk page first -- especially if they're likely to be contentious, as you know these will be. --jpgordon^{𝄢𝄆 𝄐𝄇} 19:46, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

That's what I did, run them through the talk page.

Wikipedia isn't a newspaper, but since our criterion for including content is WP:RS, and most newspapers are WP:RS, we will have a tendency to follow the judgment of newspapers in most current events. --Nbauman (talk) 23:11, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

It looks like nobody's opposed, although toward the idea in general rather than a specific implementation, if you're still undecided on whether to spend time on this. 2601:482:8000:C470:B531:76E7:C82E:7E0F (talk) 20:52, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Father

Someone please add info about her father.

https://www.marieclaire.com/politics/a28259825/who-is-donald-harris-kamala-harris-father/

https://web.stanford.edu/~dharris/professional_career.htm — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:101:8200:DC60:481A:B03F:A1E8:C916 (talk) 21:03, 10 August 2020 (UTC)

Intended Revision: Make criticims cited in article more faithful to source

Under Anti-Truancy efforts, the following is stated referencing a Huffington Post article:

"Critics charged [...] that Harris's rhetoric legitimized the notion that parents were responsible for their children's education."

The following can be found in the source:

"But to critics, the language Harris used to encourage a truancy crackdown and the system she reinvigorated were cementing the idea that parents always were the ultimate source of the problem."

I don't think that the source is faithfully represented by the current wording in the article which appears polemic/sarcastic. Neither is this criticism particularly central to the argument made in the source which is best summarized by the following two paragraphs:

"Harris has since replaced her punitive stance with the message that parents of truant children need help, not scare tactics. It’s a shift that happened roughly in step with voters’ waning tolerance for using the criminal justice system to address complicated social problems and Harris’ own preparations to seek higher office. In the memoir she released shortly before announcing her candidacy for president, Harris described her work on truancy as “trying to support parents, not punish them.”

[...]

Yet the penalties she once championed for truancy and the way she originally thought about the issue are foundational to how California handles truancy today. Peoples’ arrest wasn’t a freak occurrence ― it was the inevitable outcome of Harris’ campaign to fuse the problem of truancy with the apparatus of law enforcement. And Peoples is far from an outlier. There are still hundreds of families across California entering the criminal justice system under the aegis of Harris’ law."

Therefore I intend to replace this half-sentence by a more faithful version and to add an additional criticism that is close to the source's main argument:

"Critics charged [...] that Harris's rhetoric one-sidedly identified parents as the sole root of the problem and that a punitive, criminal justice based approach is unsuitable to address a complex social issue like truancy. They charge that she has since attempted to reframe her original views on the issue as supportive of parents out of political expedience."

Rappatoni (talk) 10:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with your proposed replacement. It's more faithful to the source. --Nbauman (talk) 16:42, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Pronunciation

Twitter suggests that her first name is pronounced "Comma-La" not "Camel-Ah". Have we got it wrong here? Timrollpickering (talk) 20:25, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

She herself says it is pronounced like "calm". That's closer to Comma and is probably what we have in mind with KAH. -- MelanieN (talk) 20:40, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

STRONGLY SUGGEST REMOVING THE POTENTIAL VP'S SIGNATURE FROM THE WEBSITE. 199.168.243.204 (talk) 20:36, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Why would we do that? – Muboshgu (talk) 20:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Change all African-American references to Indian (India) and Jamaican. 2601:1C0:CF00:9060:F126:A443:7763:A621 (talk) 20:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: violates recently determined consensus. There is an ongoing possible revisiting of that consensus going on elsewhere on this page. Please participate there. Rklahn (talk) 00:15, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Kamala Harris is not African American as this states. Her mother is Indian and her father Jamaican. 2603:300A:2202:A500:858D:F647:E38B:BFDA (talk) 20:40, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:46, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

She is Asian American. India, where her mother immigrated from, is part of Asia. Jamaica, where her father immigrated from, is part of North America. 52.128.35.18 (talk) 20:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: Did it ever occur to you that Harris' Jamaican ancestors weren't initially from Jamaica? That perhaps they were brought to Jamaica from Africa? – Muboshgu (talk) 20:48, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Someone please change the title of this article back to her proper name. 73.170.253.10 (talk) 20:49, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done The article title has been moved back with both the article and the talk page being move protected. -- LuK3 (Talk) 20:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Please change how this appears in a Google Search it has profanity 2601:647:4B02:4F60:9C80:7425:78B1:1404 (talk) 20:53, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done – Muboshgu (talk) 21:00, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Harris is the second African American woman is wrong, she is Jamaican / Indian 205.209.193.6 (talk) 20:55, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: This is the last time I'll say this before I start deleting these edit requests: Black Jamaicans came from Africa. – Muboshgu (talk) 20:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Please change how this appears in a Google Search it has profanity (See previous requests re: Article title and metadata) 2601:647:4B02:4F60:9C80:7425:78B1:1404 (talk) 20:56, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Google search results are cache-based and thus Wikipedia has no control over what it shows in that respect. The article title itself has been restored some 1-1.5 hours ago. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 20:59, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Lead paragraph

Half of her lead paragraph is saying she's the first X and Y person to be A and B. Shouldn't lead paragraphs just be for basic descriptions, eg she's been a senator for X years and was chosen as Bidens running mate, with all this race stuff moved later? It definitely seems out of place where it currently is.  Nixinova   T   C   21:01, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

@Nixinova: the Manual of Style says Ethnicity, religion, or sexuality should generally not be in the lead unless it is relevant to the subject's notability, so I would assume it's because she is partly notable for being the first 'X and Y to be A and B'. However, I do think that the lead has changed quite a bit in the roughly 40/50 minutes since you posted your comment, so we may be talking about relatively different leads by now. Seagull123 Φ 21:50, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah, it's been toned down, and is now fine.  Nixinova   T   C   22:08, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Removal of VP pick lead

@Cpotisch: why did you remove her being picked from the lead paragraph? Albertkaloo (talk) 21:09, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I didn't. I removed it from the third paragraph, since it was already mentioned in the first paragraph. Cpotisch (talk) 21:15, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Welp. I need glasses. I see that now, sorry about that. Albertkaloo (talk) 21:18, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

All good. Cpotisch (talk) 21:26, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 11 August 2020

Kamala Harris is Joe Biden's official running mate/ vice president Remembereverything101 (talk) 21:11, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

 Done Already done. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 21:13, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Though she has yet to receive the actual nomination at the convention; she is not yet the official running mate. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 21:13, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

FAQ

Anyone object to adding an FAQ at the top of this page re: her ethnicity? We're getting inundated with edit requests from people saying she's not AA, but Indian and Jamaican. I guess people don't realize that the slave trade visited Jamaica as well as the U.S.? – Muboshgu (talk) 21:29, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu, no objection. Clearly needed. I think it should note that we're calling her what she calls herself, period. Doesn't matter about Jamaican and African diaspora. —valereee (talk) 21:31, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu I guess, strictly speaking, she'd be Caribbean-American, which is somewhat distinct, that's unimportant inasmuch as reliable sources describe her as AfAm. We can use that, along with WP:OR (drawing conclusions), as a stand-in answer; I'd prefer that over a slave trade talk. Iseult ^Δx parlez moi 21:34, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Iseult, we would have to use language from reliable sources, and I don't know that they mention the slave trade. I brought it up as a simple fact that her father's family aren't "native" to Jamaica. I can draft something.... – Muboshgu (talk) 21:35, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Iseult, I'd argue it doesn't matter. On her senate and campaign websites, she calls herself both African-American and South Asian-American. We should call her what she calls herself. —valereee (talk) 21:36, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Here's a Reuters fact check of use. – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

One question I support the FAQ should include is why this article isn't titled "Kamala Enhoff". Please explain your opinions on this question (I'm not asking this question myself; I'm only asking if the question should be on the FAQ.) Georgia guy (talk) 21:37, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Is that question asked "frequently"? – Muboshgu (talk) 21:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I'm sure the question will likely be asked by someone who studies her life and family. Georgia guy (talk) 21:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Apparently the biographies are already being written after about an hour. KidAd (talk) 22:11, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Georgia guy, why would anyone ask that? —valereee (talk) 22:09, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Wait, you think because her husband's last name is Emhoff, people will be wondering why her name isn't Emhoff? Seriously? —valereee (talk) 22:13, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't need to be in FAQ. Most people know better; it's common knowledge that many professional women keep their maiden name. (Why isn't the Ivanka Trump article titled Ivanka Kushner? Now there's a NFAQ for you!) -- MelanieN (talk) 23:32, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Please don't start new threads. This is already a consensus above that the description of her ethnicity should be "African American and South Asian American. That is all the FAQ needs to say. There is no reason to reinvent the wheel in another thread. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 21:40, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

• I would support a FAQ. There's no point having the same discussions again and again. - MrX 🖋 21:43, 11 August 2020 (UTC)
• Echo the "no FAQ" thinking on the topic of identity. We have gone through it extensively, it has subtlety that I don't think an FAQ could capture, and any editors should simply go find the talk page discussion. If there must be an FAQ, it should simply point to the talk page section, and make no reference to even the consensus. Rklahn (talk) 21:59, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I agree with Rklahn. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:11, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

I created Talk:Kamala Harris/FAQ. Please refine it with me. This is my first FAQ. If we agree to it, we can post it to the page. Otherwise, I can delete it. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:20, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu, should we add name pronunciation to the FAQ? KidAd (talk) 22:27, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu Please delete the FAQ. There is no reason to redo a discussion that has already reached consensus and nuance at Talk:Kamala_Harris#Racial_categorisation_of_Kamala_Harris. A second discussion does nothing except give people a chance to be disruptive. Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 22:45, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

KidAd, yes! That's a common mistake people make. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:30, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Muboshgu You jumped the gun here. There is not consensus on the existence of an FAQ. Even if there was, there is not consensus on what it should contain. Please delete the FAQ. Rklahn (talk) 00:20, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Consensus does not require unanimity. – Muboshgu (talk) 01:24, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

While true, "Editors who ignore talk page discussions yet continue to edit in or revert disputed material, or who stonewall discussions, may be guilty of disruptive editing and incur sanctions." You entered into an area where there was already a well thought out recent consensus, and contradicted it, with less than 24 hours warning. Im going to remove question 1 as it contradicts consensus. Rklahn (talk) 01:41, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

• I didn't mean to violate the FAQ in my response at the time I wrote it, but having thought about it, I do object. The recommended classification of Harris' identity as "African American" is not consistent with RS, scholarship, or practice. All RS say her father is from Jamaica and her mother is from India. Jamaican immigrants are not called "African Americans." They are called Jamaican-American. Immigrants from India are called Indian-Americans. RS call her a "Woman of color" which is an accurate umbrella term. There is debate about who the term "Black" applies to, but that might be acceptable. Calling Harris "African-American" and South Asian-Americans is political, not based on scholarship or practice. It is not based on RS.
• I also object to admins removing comments from the talk page. They deleted this, as far as I can tell: I get it. Democrats want the African American vote and don't want Kamala Harris associated with India because of the outsourcing of jobs...but her parents are Jamaican-American and Indian-American according to all RS!

She calls herself an 'American.' You could say she is the first "Woman of Color" or "Black woman" (though there is some debate about the use of this term to refer to people of color from other regions) to hold those offices. Although many people living in Jamaican come from Africa (as do all of us, technically), African Americans have a different history than Jamaican Americans. India is her mother's country of origin - it is the most specific term. Stick to RS and state that. People will eventually find out anyway - why compromise the integrity of Wikipedia? I think someone actually removed the record of my edits from the history! Articles:

   ‘I am who I am’: Kamala Harris, daughter of Indian and Jamaican immigrants, defines herself simply as ‘American’ - https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/i-am-who-i-am-kamala-harris-daughter-of-indian-and-jamaican-immigrants-defines-herself-simply-as-american/2019/02/02/0b278536-24b7-11e9-ad53-824486280311_story.html
   Kamala Harris Is Biden’s Choice for Vice President. A former rival for the Democratic nomination, she will be the first woman of color to be nominated for national office by a major political party.https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/kamala-harris-biden-vp.html Stoney1976 (talk) 22:00, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Stoney1976 (talk) 22:24, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Reliable sources call her "African American". Or Black. Or a person of color (which does not exclude being Black). No source calls her "Jamaican American" that I am aware of. Donald Harris is Afro-Jamaican. His ancestry comes from Africa. – Muboshgu (talk) 22:29, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

We absolutely should have an FAQ section here, and it should include more than just racial identity. It should include other things as they come up, such as how to pronounce her name, for instance. The beauty of having an FAQ section is that we can stop having to write out answers to the same old questions that keep getting asked here - "frequently" you might say. We can just reply "See FAQ #1 above". End of discussion. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:36, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Oh, good, I see the name pronunciation is already there too. Good work, User:Muboshgu. I propose we transclude it to the top of this page right now. And add other things we get tired of answering, as they come up. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

MelanieN, are you good with the current wording? – Muboshgu (talk) 01:23, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

What happened to the name pronunciation?

The other thing that strikes me is that there's an awful lot of explanation and verbiage at the top. Is that typical for FAQ pages? Is it wise to say things like "feel free to change it" and to encourage discussion? I was expecting something more like the "Talk:Donald Trump/Current consensus" page at Talk:Donald Trump, whose attitude is "this is the existing consensus, don't change it without discussion;" it allows us to just point to it when the question gets asked for the umpteenth time and it doesn't encourage people to argue about it. I think it was User:JFG who set that up. Did you look at some other FAQ pages, to see whether they make their intro assertive or accommodating, and whether it is wordy or brief?

You may have trouble figuring out where to put it at the top of this cluttered page. Again, you might look to see where other pages put it.

I'm glad you're doing this, it is going to save us all a lot of time and energy! You said it was your first FAQ so I thought I would share some thoughts. -- MelanieN (talk) 02:58, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

"Harris identifies as African American"

Isn't Harris 50% (Asian) Indian? Charles Juvon (talk) 22:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Yeah. She's biracial, and identifies as African American.[24] – Muboshgu (talk) 22:50, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes. Her father is from Jamaica and her mother is from India. RS, including the news tonight, are currently referring to her as a Woman of Color, Black, and biracial. Stoney1976 (talk) 22:52, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

When and where (reference) does she say she "identifies as African American"? Charles Juvon (talk) 23:12, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Moboshgu gave you a reference, immediately above. -- MelanieN (talk) 23:25, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you. On second thought, a reference to (Asian) India's reaction to Harris' selection of racial identity might be more enlightening. Charles Juvon (talk) 23:38, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Asian America or South Asian American

Mr. KidAd, kindly revert your edit here[25]. According to Race and ethnicity in the United States, United States Census officially recognised five racial categories, which are White American, African American, Native Americans/Alaska Native, Asian American, and Native Hawaiian/Other Pacific Islander as well as people of two or more races. It does not recognise South Asian American, please change it back to simply Asian American. Zakaria1978 (talk) 23:02, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you for your politeness! But per WP:NOTSOURCE, do not use a Wikipedia article as a source for another Wikipedia article, even when describing Wikipedia. As far as I can tell Harris identifies as South Asian-American, so we should make that distinction. KidAd (talk) 23:04, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Mr. KidAd, that is not true, her identity is of Asian American. What source do you have that she "solely" identifies with the sub-category of South Asian American? The US does not recognise South Asian American, straight from the US census. Zakaria1978 (talk) 23:11, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

It doesn't matter what categories the U.S. government/census/etc. use or recognize. What matters is how the subject of the article identifies. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 23:14, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Her official Senate.gov page says it all here. Then there's CNBC, CNN, Politico, and Business Insider. KidAd (talk) 23:19, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

My comment wasn't about what she claims. Whatever sources editors find for that are great. My concern is that there's no reason to base anything description on census categories. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 23:20, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978, please stop calling other editors Mr. It's offensive. Harris identifies as African-American and South Asian-American on her website. —valereee (talk) 23:22, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, I live in the UAE, here, calling someone "Mr." is a sign of respect. You did not have to be so rude and America-centric. Saying it politely would have worked. No, her website does not say he "identifies" or "solely identifies" as South Asian, it just says she was the "first South Asian American senator". Little to do with ethnicity, as South Asian can be Iranic (like myself), Indo-Aryan, Dravidian or Mongoloid. The mention of South Asian is just to distinguish herself. The USA does not recognise South Asian American, it only recognises Asian American. And none of those sources provided states she rejects being Asian American and "solely" identifies as "South Asian American. Also, other sources like here[26] states she is Asian American. Zakaria1978 (talk) 23:34, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

The source he lists says "The 55-year-old senator says she has not grappled with her identity and describes herself simply as "an American"." Other RS describe her as "Black" and a "Woman of Color" which are broader terms for people of mixed ancestry. See: https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/i-am-who-i-am-kamala-harris-daughter-of-indian-and-jamaican-immigrants-defines-herself-simply-as-american/2019/02/02/0b278536-24b7-11e9-ad53-824486280311_story.html and https://www.nytimes.com/2020/08/11/us/politics/kamala-harris-vp-biden.html. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Stoney1976 (talk • contribs) 23:37, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978, I'm sure Mr. is a sign of respect for people who identify as male, but KidAd doesn't have it stated that they are male. You are assuming that someone who doesn't specify must be male. That is offensive. —valereee (talk) 23:39, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

While I did not personally find the use of "Mr." offensive (I am male, so that may have something to do with it), the honorific can be interpreted as condescending or sarcastic, especially if you are not speaking with someone face-to-face. A good rule of thumb not to use honorifics, preventing any potential miscommunication. We're all equal here anyway. Apart from that, sources clearly reference her as "South Asian-American." Her official Senate page says it! So why belabor the point? KidAd (talk) 23:41, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Asian American is most appropriate here. Getting messed up in South Asian ethnicity is long and complicated. We should follow the US census, none of your sources say she "solely" identifies as "South Asian". Asian Americans are the recognised term by the US government and is most neutral. South Asian is not an ethnicity, we can be Iranic, Indo-Aryan, Mongoloid, and Dravidian. Asian American is the most neutral term, globally and in the US (since Asian American is recognised). Zakaria1978 (talk) 23:44, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

The census categories are entirely irrelevant. A term doesn't have to be recognized by the government to be appropriate. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 23:46, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

You keep saying US census is irrelevant, fine. But you failed to provide any source says she solely identifies herself as solely South Asian American. Most of these sources give her that ethnic distinction. I also explained multiple times above that her use of "South Asian American" was to mark her unique position as being the "first South Asian" in US Senate, putting just Asian will make her after a long line of Asian American senators. She did not say anything in her senate page of being "solely" South Asian as an ethnic term. That is a stretch. She is an Asian American. Zakaria1978 (talk) 23:52, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978, I totally get that, but until Harris definitively corrects her preferred categorization, we have to accept what she has personally said. What she's said is that she is African-American and South Asian-American, that her mother knew she and her sister would be considered Black, and that she is proud of her Indian-American heritage. That's the kind of thing we can use. —valereee (talk) 23:48, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, again, all of you failed to provide any source says she solely identifies herself as "solely" South Asian American, and rejects Asian American. South Asia is clearly in Asia, and South Asia Americans are Asian Americans. Her senate page uses South Asian American to distinguish herself, since there are many other Asian American senators before her. Again, South Asians are not a single ethnicity. We are very diverse. Asian American is the least offensive language, since the broad term is accepted by the US government, and she, or other Asian American don't reject it. I did not find any source where she rejects her wider Asian American heritage. Zakaria1978 (talk) 23:58, 11 August 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978, the WP:ONUS is not on us to prove a negative. It is on those who want to include something that isn't in sources. We are sourcing what she says about herself. —valereee (talk) 00:01, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, I provided the sources above. Both US census and National Post.[27] Again, kindly reread what I mentioned above. Asian American is the least offensive language. Zakaria1978 (talk) 00:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978, the US census is not a reliable source for how Kamala Harris identifies. The National Post -- unless it quotes her directly and more recently -- does not trump what she says about herself. —valereee (talk) 00:06, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Valereee, where does she identify "solely" as South Asian American? And rejects Asian American? I also provided other source. Zakaria1978 (talk) 00:09, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Zakaria1978, again, that's the WP:ONUS. You're asking us to prove a negative; we don't have to do that. —valereee (talk) 00:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I don't think it matters whether she identifies solely as something or rejects something else. If we go with that logic, we should describe Harris simply as "American." After all, where is the source that states identifies solely as Asian American and rejects American? This is silly. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 00:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

As for the contention that you feel only the census values are what the US recognizes, that is not true there are over a dozen for Immigration forms as a counter example, nor is it even an accurate statement for the census since it does allow you to enter other.Gloern (talk) 00:13, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

""Harris identifies as African American" has been edited out of the Article while we were Talking. Charles Juvon (talk) 00:04, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

We went through this at length recently, and the consensus was "African-American" and "South Asian-American". Many points of view were represented, most of them being rehashed here. If we are now revisiting that consensus, please make that clear. Otherwise, please respect the work of the other editors who put a lot of thought into this issue. Rklahn (talk) 00:12, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

A radical suggestion here from someone from a country with somewhat less of an obsession about giving people racial labels. One of Australia's leading politicians is Penny Wong. The lead of her article says a grand total of this about her ancestry (the preferred word here, rather than race)... "Born in Malaysia to an Australian mother and Malaysian father." This is elaborated on later in the article with "Wong was born in Kota Kinabalu, Malaysia, to Jane (née Chapman), an Australian, and Francis Wong, a Malaysian of Chinese origin." That's it. That's all that's said about her "race". Is there a Wikipedia rule that says an article on an American politician must give an interpretive and obviously highly debatable racial label to that person? Does Wikipedia really have to play the racial label game so strongly? Can we not just write simple facts about her background,and leave the interpretation to others? HiLo48 (talk) 00:17, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

HiLo48, I think that would go with how Harris sees herself, and myself I think the sources support it, but we might be getting into territory where others will be calling OR. —valereee (talk) 00:20, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Why do we even need to describe how someone sees themselves? Even that seems to become a point of contention for a some American politicians with complicated ancestries. Stick to facts. Let readers interpret. HiLo48 (talk) 00:23, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

HiLo48, now you're going too far. :D In the US, how a politician identifies does matter. It would seem strange not to address it at all. Does it need to be in the lead? Maybe not. Is it stupid that this is as important as it is? Yes. —valereee (talk) 00:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

While I think you are trying to be fair to a previous discussion that people currently in this thread might be unaware of, reading that section, it seems to me this current discussion is covering a different aspect completely, there is no repeat between the 2, as the previous one was concerning the duality of her ethnic history and this one is at least mostly concerning the validity of one of the terms being used.Gloern (talk) 00:21, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I like what HiLo48 stated. Lets put something like an immigrant mother from India and an immigrant father from Jamaica. That might be the best. Since she is American above all else. However, I am firm in the evidence, she is an Asian American, the least offensive term. Zakaria1978 (talk) 00:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Kamala Harris IS NOT African American or Black as stated in her bio and needs to be corrected. She is biracial half Jamacian and half East Indian. She affirmed her nationality when sworn into Congress as "Proud to be one of the first Indian American women to be serving in Congress" Now Kamala Harris identifies as Black but that is like Elizabeth Warren identifying as an American Indian. TooterTurtle2003 (talk) 00:40, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

On a second look, I am seeing that the article said "Indian American" for a long time until it was modified yesterday.[28] I have changed it back to "Indian American" since that is how she identifies herself as also mentioned by this recent source. Zakaria1978 (talk) 00:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Race_(human_categorization) makes this discussion even more complicated. Charles Juvon (talk) 01:09, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Again, we are revisiting covered ground. Race is a social construct, imposed by society. Identity is what counts here. That is "African American" and "South Asian American". Clearly. Rklahn (talk) 03:28, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Requested Edit to Early Life (or Personal Life) Section: Religion

The early life section indicates that she grew up Hindu and Christian. This would be better qualified by indicating that Kamala considers herself a Black Baptist now, and referenced the parable of the Good Samaritan on the campaign trail. The baptist affiliation is listed elsewhere on Wikipedia, so we could use any of the three references there: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religious_affiliation_in_the_United_States_Senate

Or use this reference here: https://www.americamagazine.org/politics-society/2020/08/11/five-faith-facts-about-biden-vp-kamala-harris

“Presumptive vice presidential nominee”

There’s really no such thing, but it’s only going to be wrong for about eight days and then we can remove “presumptive,” so I’m not too worried about it. Neutron (talk) 00:16, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Some information is wrong. She is not a black. Her mother is Indian, her father is Latino. She is not either black nor native American. Sam2000Sam (talk) 00:36, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done This template must be followed by a complete and specific description of the request, that is, specify what text should be removed and a verbatim copy of the text that should replace it. "Please change X" is not acceptable and will be rejected; the request must be of the form "please change X to Y". See previous discussions on this page. - MrX 🖋 00:42, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

change African American to Jamaican American2601:245:8100:E7F0:CCED:6A92:609C:364B (talk) 01:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC) 2601:245:8100:E7F0:CCED:6A92:609C:364B (talk) 01:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done The source cited describes the subject as African-American. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 01:17, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

African American needs to be removed as it is stated on both her parents and husbands pages that she is not African American, but Asian American and Jamaican American. 107.77.195.50 (talk) 01:14, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done The source cited describes the subject as African-American. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 01:17, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Admins

Pinging admins @El C:, @RegentsPark:, @Vanamonde93:, @Doug Weller:, @Bishonen: Could you all please keep an eye on this page. The precise and NPOV terms are South Asian American and Asian American, not Indian American, whose issues are explained in Indian Americans#Terminology. Besides, as I have explained above, when we use the adjective "first," we are looking to apply it to the largest ambit of its use. She is the first Asian American presumptive VP nominee, not just the first South Asian American. Best, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 01:33, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

First Black woman and first Asian-American. —valereee (talk) 01:46, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Yes, but what will you wikilink "Black" to? If it is African American and I don't see any other link, WP:EASTEREGG will compel us to use "African American" instead, no matter what language newspapers use in order to be popular. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:02, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

That is not an Easter egg. "Black" is legitimate, it is both an alternate term for and another word for African American (because the times are a-changing). But wait, [User:Fowler&fowler]]; you didn't call on me, but I adminny too, though often ad minimum. What is this "language newspaper use in order to be popular"? It would be wise of you not to answer that, but to just give it some thought, because as it stands that statement doesn't make a damn bit of sense, and has more than a whiff of...well, it starts with an r. Drmies (talk) 02:06, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

It is an informal term, interleaved later, but not used in the first instance in the lead. There is good reason that the Barak Obama, Martin Luther King Jr., Ralph Bunche, Thurgood Marshall , Carol Moseley Braun pages use African American. Sorry, about not calling on you. I forgot. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:19, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I almost wonder if (Aiyee) we need a section on her race/identity/ethnicity. I apologize to the entire world for America thinking this is necessary. —valereee (talk) 02:18, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

There is a clear precedent here in the above "first" pages of distinguished African Americans. No need for a section. I submit that doing so, at least at this state, will become a form of devaluation of person on account of her gender, and ultimately of sexism. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 02:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Fowler&fowler, so want to avoid a race/identity/ethnicity section, but I don't know what you're saying with clear precedent here in the above "first" pages of distinguished African Americans. Can you provide again, sorry. It's a really long discussion. —valereee (talk) 02:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Valereee Sorry, I just realized that you too are an admin. I was tired when I wrote what I wrote. What I meant was the pages: Barak Obama, Martin Luther King Jr., Ralph Bunche, Thurgood Marshall , Carol Moseley Braun use "African American" the first time they refer to the subject's ethnicity in the lead; they might be later using "Black" as well. See also Colin Powell whose parents were Jamaican immigrants. The "no need for a section" remark was added later after I saw your post. I should have signed it separately, but I did not so it appears that it is one post. The precedent is only about "African American." I mean that if the Barak Obama page does not have a separate section about his ethnicity, despite the POV about it promoted in many places, there is no reason to start a new section about KH's ethnicity. It might be seen as a case of double standards, or rather of holding female candidates to a different standard. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 03:10, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

References

Locked

Collapsed disruptive posts
Once again democratic edits are prevented by a cabal of politically motivated admins. Unlock the page, let the people of San Francisco edit this page, they know her best. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 36.11.228.41 (talk) 01:43, 12 August 2020 (UTC) Is this how Bernie can still win? 97.117.112.24 (talk) 01:51, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

She is NOT AfricanAmerican 2603:6000:D802:2500:C4F3:22A3:C474:A49A (talk) 01:56, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The source cited describes the subject as African-American. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 01:57, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I stand corrected. Someone changed the source. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 01:59, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I removed the template because no consensus exists to make this edit. TFD (talk) 02:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Thank you, @The Four Deuces:. I'm still learning etiquette for handling these inane semi-protected edit requests. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 02:07, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Not a problem. I don't understand how so many inexperienced editors know how to set up semi-protected edit requests, but don't know when they should be used. To the IP: when you use the template you alert auto-confirmed editors and administrator to make a requested change. They usually have no knowledge of or interest in the topic and check if there is consensus for the change. But if there was consensus for change, most of the editors here would be able to make it. TFD (talk) 02:15, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Donald Harris

Recommend linking mention of her father to his Wikipedia entry: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Harris_(professor)#:~:text=Donald%20Harris%20(1938%20%E2%80%93%20Current),from%20University%20of%20California%2C%20Berkeley. JackaIope (talk) 01:56, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

He is linked in the infobox. – Teratix ₵ 02:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

reversion

Just reverted a fairly major edit which among a bunch of capitalization changes included a fairly major content change. Let's discuss before reverting back. —valereee (talk) 02:16, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

I've fixed those capitalization issues to conform with MOS:JOBTITLES more than once today. Editors have been reverting changes to before my capitalization edits, making me go through the exercise all over again. Thanks for pointing that out here. Whatever content changes are discussed here, please let's try to keep the MOS edits. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 02:19, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Change “first African American” to “Jamaican American”. She is not African American because her father is from Jamaica and her mother is Indian. There is no Africa there. 2600:1004:B0A0:8FCD:E0E8:18CB:6E56:BC01 (talk) 02:47, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Please research where the ancestors of the dark skinned people in Jamaica came from. HiLo48 (talk) 02:55, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Kamala Harris is not African American. Her father is from Jamaica and her mother is from India. She should either be referred to as black, Jamaican American, or Indian American. 97.119.2.54 (talk) 03:00, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

 Not done RS in the article state that she is African-American. —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 03:05, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Racial description in opening paragraph.

Is it accurate to say "She is the first African American and first Asian American to be chosen as the running mate of a major party's presidential candidate" when "African American" connotes a descendent of enslaved people living in the U.S.? Her African ancestry is through Jamaica, not the US, so it might be more accurate to say "She is the first black American and first Asian American to be chosen as the running mate of a major party's presidential candidate." — Preceding unsigned comment added by Biasbalancer1 (talk • contribs) 03:22, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

The Jamaican part is accurate, but her mother is Indian. She is not Asian. – Brenr 03:27, August 12, 2020 (UTC) 03:27, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 August 2020

Her heritage is Jamaican and Indian so it would be accurate to say she is the first Jamaican American not African American. PeaceLovePositivity (talk) 03:29, 12 August 2020 (UTC)

Kamala's Descent Indisputable

Regardless of how many articles exist claiming she is African, it does not change the reality that she is born to an Indian-born, Indian-American mother and a Jamaican-born, Jamaican-American father. We should ensure factual information is on the article, not information from inaccurate sources. – Brenr 03:30, August 12, 2020 (UTC)