Wikipedia:Australian Wikipedians' notice board

Australian Wikipedians' notice board

Portal | Project | Board | Alerts | Deletions | To-Do | Category | Related | Help

WikiProjects edit | watch	In the news edit | watch
WikiProject Australia Australian Wikipedians' Notice Board Australian Wikipedians Wikipedians in Australia Australian Collaboration of the Fortnight New Australian articles WikiProject Australian places New South Wales Riverina Northern Territory Queensland South Australia Tasmania Victoria Western Australia Australian Antarctic Territory Australian WikiProject Cities Adelaide Canberra Melbourne Perth Geelong Sydney Other Australia-related WikiProjects The 5000 Challenge Biota Cinema Crime Demographics Education History Exploration Maritime Military Indigenous peoples Noongar Law Literature Music Crowded House Kylie Minogue Powderfinger Politics Sports Association football Australian rules football Baseball Basketball Motorsport Television Transport Roads WikiTowns Freopedia Toodyaypedia	9 May 2024 – Australia–Tuvalu relations Australia and Tuvalu sign a new security agreement, whereby Australia agrees to protect Tuvalu during natural disasters, pandemics, or military aggression. (AP) 5 May 2024 – Terrorism in Australia A man is injured in a stabbing at a car park in Perth, Australia. The 16-year-old perpetrator is killed by police officers and is described as a "religious radicalized individual". A possible Islamist motive is behind the attack. (DW) 3 May 2024 – Mexican authorities locate the bodies of three tourists, one American and two Australians, in Baja California, where they were reported missing in April. Three people have been arrested and are being questioned in relation to the case. (Reuters) (BBC News) 28 April 2024 – Nicole Kidman becomes the first Australian to earn the AFI Life Achievement Award for her contribution to American cinema. (Rolling Stone) 19 April 2024 – 2024 Iran–Israel conflict The Australian Department of Foreign Affairs and Trade tells its citizens to leave Israel, citing a high threat of military reprisals and terrorist attacks. (Times of Israel) 16 April 2024 – 2024 Wakeley church stabbing Australian police say that the stabbing attack at an Assyrian church in Sydney was an Islamic terrorist act. (Reuters)
Categories edit | watch	On this day in Australia edit | watch
Australia · Arts · Architecture · Cities · Communications · Culture · Economy · Education · Environment · Geography · Government · Healthcare · History · Law · Language · Lists · Media · Military · Music · Organisations · People · Politics · Religion · Science · Society · Sport · Subdivisions · Transport · Tourism Australian states and territories · Australian Capital Territory · New South Wales · Northern Territory · Queensland · South Australia · Tasmania · Victoria · Western Australia Capital cities · Adelaide · Brisbane · Canberra · Darwin · Hobart · Melbourne · Perth · Sydney Australia stubs · AFL stubs · Geography stubs · Government stubs · Law stubs · People stubs · Paralympic medalists stubs · Television stubs	16 May: The explosion cloud resulting from the Operation Hurricane detonation 3 October 1952 1954 – World champion boxer Jimmy Carruthers retires, undefeated. 1956 – The first post-war British nuclear tests begin in Australia, with Operation Mosaic at Monte Bello Islands, Western Australia. 1983 – NSW Premier Neville Wran steps aside in response to allegations raised by ABC TV program Four Corners that he attempted to influence the NSW Magistracy. More Australian anniversaries...
To-Do edit | watch	Announcements edit | watch
Here are some tasks you can do to help with WikiProject Australia: Requests · Ariadne Australia · Awakenings Festival · Drought Force · Electoral reform in Australia · Fossils of Australia · Landforms of Australia · Sculpture of Australia Articles needing attention · Australian contemporary dance · Crime in Australia · Environment of Australia · Gender inequality in Australia · Privacy in Australian law · Secession in Australia · Tourism in Australia Images requested · Cheryl Kernot · MV Pacific Adventurer · Poppy King · Rosemary Goldie · James Moore · OneAustralia · Australian major cricket venues Verification needed · Architecture of Australia · Australian performance poetry · FreeTV Australia · Hindmarsh Island Royal Commission · List of political controversies in Australia · Punk rock in Australia Quality watch: 64 FL-Class Australia lists 407 FA-Class Australia articles 711 GA-Class Australia articles 155 FP-Class Australian pictures	Featured article candidates AC/DC – Discussion Featured article review Keith Miller with the Australian cricket team in England in 1948 – Review Australian Cattle Dog – Review Featured list candidates List of premiers of Victoria – Discussion Good article candidates Where the Angels Fall — Discussion Zali Steggall — Discussion Premier of Victoria — Discussion Fair Work Ombudsman v Quest South Perth — Discussion Sophie Scamps — Discussion Addie Viola Smith — Discussion Matthew Charles Johnson — Discussion Kevin Rudd — Discussion Good article reassessment Australian rules football — Discussion Sue v Hill — Discussion Requests for adminship none currently General announcements Grants: Project Announcement - Women's Art Register Art+Feminism Event Planned meetups Perth – 3 December 2023 Brisbane – To be decided Melbourne – Wikipedia:Meetup/Melbourne/45 - Friday 8 December, 2023 Peer review The Cat Empire discography — Review BP Refinery v Tracey — Review Nestory Irankunda — Review Deletion discussions

Brisbane meetup this Friday evening

Brisbane Meetup Next: 3 August 2012 - Dinner Last: 26 May 2012 - Dinner @ Southbank

There will be a meetup in Brisbane this Friday night. Sorry about the late notice. Could a bot operator notify everyone in Category:Wikipedians in Brisbane please..? John Vandenberg ^(chat) 07:14, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

I've notified everyone in the category. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 01:36, 1 August 2012 (UTC)

Request for Comment at Australian Cattle Dog

Hello All,

I have opened a request for comment at Australian Cattle Dog, here. The discussion is meant to decide whether the article should have a separate subsection on Aggression. Your input would be valuable. Thanks. Ebikeguy (talk) 13:17, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Beware to participants - smells like Perth all over again... the length of the talk page is absurd SatuSuro 13:58, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

<sarcasm>I think this calls for a dedicated Australian Cattle Dog attacks in Australia article.</sarcasm> The-Pope (talk) 14:52, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Damn! Beat me to it. --AussieLegend (talk) 14:57, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

One small section and its like editors whole careers found just there on the talk page... SatuSuro 23:16, 3 August 2012 (UTC)

Australian Bank

I've done some work on Garrick Agnew and have come across the Australian Bank, apparently founded in 1981.[1] Does anyone know anything about its fate? I'm guessing it was taken over or folded in the early to mid-80s because I've never heard of it before. Hack (talk) 05:52, 4 August 2012 (UTC)

Inappropriate moves by tag-teaming new editors

New and inexperienced editors are wreaking havoc with University of Newcastle (Australia) related articles and cats. The university is commonly known as Newcastle University but this conflicts with the English university, which is why the article name is disambiguated. There is a disambiguation page at University of Newcastle and a redirect from University of Newcastle (disambiguation). Related cats include "University of Newcastle (Australia)" in their title. At least that's the way it's supposed to work. Instead, University of Newcastle has been cut and paste moved to University of Newcastle (disambiguation) and University of Newcastle (Australia) has been cut and paste moved to University of Newcastle. A number of other moves have been made without any discussion or consideration for our disambiguation practices etc. I've warned editors on their talk pages but one editor, User:Lillywaterpower is unresponsive and continues to make cut and paste moves etc, reverting every attempt that I've made to restore the correct structure. I've run out of reverts at University of Newcastle (Australia) so there's not much more I can do at this point. --AussieLegend (talk) 05:52, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

I have been fixing up all the categories, and will assist you in reverting the vandalism. StAnselm (talk) 06:01, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. That was pretty quick. --AussieLegend (talk) 06:03, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

Sent to SPI: Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Tone.itdown1901 --Rschen7754 09:27, 5 August 2012 (UTC)

All confirmed as socks, all editors indef blocked. --AussieLegend (talk) 07:59, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Sounds similar to what I'm dealing with but rather then an article name, it is a love sick 17 year old with a fixation with Eamon Sullivan, who keeps readding that she is his spouse (no reliable sources prove this) and is now creating socks. Bidgee (talk) 10:08, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Semi protected (and why aren't you an admin!?). Nick-D (talk) 10:19, 6 August 2012 (UTC) Nick-D (talk) 10:19, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

University of Canberra

Could use a bit more watching - recent edits include article damage, misformatting and introduction of apparent copyvio/promo material. User:UCan2012 seems WP:SPA, perhaps WP:COI on this. Dl2000 (talk) 02:54, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Onto it. --Greenmaven (talk) 04:50, 6 August 2012 (UTC)

Meetup in Hobart

Hi there,

There will be an informal Wikipedia/Wikimedia meetup at 10.00am, Saturday 8th of September 2012 at Infusion Bar & Cafe' by Vanidol, 361A Macquarie street, South Hobart, Tasmania. Please come along! JJ Harrison (talk) 05:24, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

Indigenous Australians edit war

Hi. I am not a particularly experienced editor, and have stumbled into my first ever edit/undo war on the page Indigenous Australians. IP editor 220.236.68.72 is removing statements and references that seem valid enough to me. Could someone with more experience in such disputes and/or with this subject area please provide some mediation and guidance? Thanks Mozzy66 (talk) 12:51, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

My contribution here. Mitch Ames (talk) 00:38, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Images - 51st state of the USA?

After having 2 of my photo uploads challenged as they are in the 1945-1955 window of uncertainty, in that they meet {{PD-Australia}} of all images taken prior to 1955 are Public Domain, but not the URAA date of "if it wasn't PD in the USA in 1996, then your grandkids might be able to upload it one day", why do we bother having PD-Australia at all. I thought it was a "not OK at commons, OK here" rule, but even that doesn't seem to be the case. Any good international copyright lawyers on WMAU or similar who can advise for sure, not just what we or someone else thinks? I had another photo challenged with some comment about "freedom of panorama" that I have no idea about. This basically ends any chance I'll ever upload any other photos here. Text only from now on, lets go back to green text on black screens. The-Pope (talk) 14:05, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

I once had a looney next door neighbour who woke me up at 3:15 one morning in the middle of a drought when hosing lawns was prohibited. We ended up in court because I filmed her drowned yard (she was also hosing the eaves, IN THE DARK!) and she tried to take out an AVO, claiming I was breaching copyright by photographing her and that I assaulted her by shining a torch on her. (what would you do if you heard weird noises coming from your looney next door neighbour's dark yard at 3:15am?) A solicitor I spoke to told me three things: 1. Generally, despite what the copyright council tells you, you can take photos of almost anything. 2. Don't believe the copyright council. 3. Move. Your next door neighbour is mad. --AussieLegend (talk) 15:59, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

"You can take photos of almost anything", but that doesn't imply that you can publish those photos. Example: Can I upload photo I took of plaque?. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:01, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

The Copyright Act doesn't distinguish between taking the photo and publishing them. Essentially, if you photograph something, and it doesn't infringe copyright then you can do what you want with the photo as you own the copyright in the photo. If that wasn't the case, you may as well shut commons down. --AussieLegend (talk) 09:50, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

But the photo does infringe copyright. I am not a lawyer, but:

• The Copyright Act, Part V, Division 5, Subdivision C has several sections the describe offences relating to publishing infringing copies. It also includes a separate section (132AD) about making infringing copies commercially. So to my eye, it does appear to distinguish between taking the photo and publishing it.
• Assuming that my photo was of an artistic work and thus was an "infringing copy", S132AI clause 2 says that my uploading ("distributing") it is an offence (assuming (2)(d) applies). Which section/clause says I committed an offence by taking the photo (which I never intend to sell)?

Mitch Ames (talk) 13:33, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

I assume that the plaque is on permanent display. S65 of The Act says "The copyright in a work to which this section applies that is situated, otherwise than temporarily, in a public place, or in premises open to the public, is not infringed by the making of a painting, drawing, engraving or photograph of the work or by the inclusion of the work in a cinematograph film or in a television broadcast." If you've taken a photo of an artistic work that is permanently on display, you haven't infringed copyright. --AussieLegend (talk) 13:52, 12 August 2012 (UTC)

Does that mean I can upload the photo? It appears that the original advice was incorrect. It said "Australian law is based on the British law, so presumably the situation in Australia is the same as the situation in the United Kingdom", but in looks like UK law treats "graphic works" differently, but Australian law does not. Mitch Ames (talk) 09:37, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

No one knows. Some claim to know, but I think this is getting to the point that we need the WMF/WMAU to sort this out for once and for all. I'm all for "anyone to edit" but I get a bit pissed off when it's "anyone makes/interprets the rules" and "anyone helps clean up". Expiring or laggy toolserver accounts that do vital problem/cleanup tracking is another separate issue where the WMF is happy to outsource/crowdsource the issue and hope that someone else does some good. The bottom line is that because the Hollywood/music publishing machine realised that some of their big money earner old movies might fall into public domain, they lobbied to tighten and extend the copyright laws so that they don't. I'm sure photos from old newspapers weren't their main targets, but just caught in the crossfire. As for public art, do you think anyone in Canberra, let alone Washington knows what a creative commons type licence is? Was the concept of "publish a copy of it to the world for generally educational purposes" considered when writing the laws? Textopedia. That's where I'm heading.The-Pope (talk) 11:48, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

And, having now made some comments at WP:PUF I'm further convinced that en.Wikipedia should be split into us.Wikipedia and non-us.Wikipedia. --AussieLegend (talk) 18:52, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

The following was posted on my talk page:

Was reading over your commants about the odd US copyright laws the rest of us are forced to follow. In Canada we created Wikimedia Canada you guys have anything like this? Trying to get this to help us with copyright.Moxy (talk) 19:21, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps we should support Wikimedia.au more. --AussieLegend (talk) 19:29, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

From memory, there was a suggestion on the Wikimedia Australia mailing list a while ago to set up an Australian version of Wikimedia Commons to get around this issue (the reasoning being that if the post-1945 PD-Australia photos were hosted in Australia, their copyright status would be fine). I don't think that anything came of this. In regards to freedom of panorama in Australia, we're fortunate enough to have copied the British laws and the guidance on Commons explains that you can take and upload photos of all buildings and most sculptures in public places. Nick-D (talk) 23:23, 11 August 2012 (UTC)

I reckon the issue with old Australia photos is pretty straight-forword myself:

Pre-1946 photos

are in the public domain in Australia and the US.

1946-1954 protos

are in the public domain in Australia but not in the US, so Commons cannot legally host them.

post-1954 photos

are still under copyright in both Australia and the US, so Commons cannot legally host them.

I could bang on about URAA restoration dates and free trade agreements and so forth, but that would as likely confuse as explain. Keep it simple: don't upload Australian photos taken after 1945 unless you own the copyright on them.

Hesperian 00:47, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

like most wiki discussions we've merged 2 similar but separate issues here. In regards to the old PD images there doesn't seem to be any differentiation between what commons can have compared to here for the 1946 to 1955 photos. The worst thing is it isn't a case of every year we can upload a new years worth of photos-the copyright expired date isn't moving. Our grandkids might be able to one day upload PD Melb olympics photos.

The other issue is the our current photos of objects being rejected because of the subject matter, whether it be art, graphics, banners, buildings etc. Noone seems to fully understand what we can and can't photograph. The-Pope (talk) 02:22, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Building architecture is definitely fine (assuming we take and license the photos). Do you know of any buildings that have been deleted? The other things you've mentioned are more complicated and depend on issues like permanence / 2d vs 3d / artistic crafstmanship vs 'pure' art / the threshhold of originality, etc. But that's why we need deletion discussions, to sort through the issues applicable to each picture. --99of9 (talk) 02:47, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

If what Hesperian says is the case, can something be done about the PD-Australia template? It's misleading people (i.e. me) into thinking things can be on Commons when they probably can't. Another question - does the exception granted to government-owned material (point E on the PD-Australia template) still apply? Frickeg (talk) 02:54, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Yes, the PD-Australia template needs to be fixed. It cannot speak to whether the work is in the public domain in the United States and therefore legal to host. It can only speak to Commons policy of only hosting material that could also be legally hosted in its country of origin. Pre-1946 photos should therefore be tagged {{PD-1996}} to indicate they are legal to host, and {{PD-Australia}} to indicate they fall within Commons policy. Hesperian 06:50, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

The crown copyright part for government creations still applies, so government publications from before 1962 are public domain in Australia. They would also be PD in USA if made before 1946. Graeme Bartlett (talk) 08:42, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

{{PD-Australia}} was "fixed" on 16 October 2010, with this edit. There's also a related template, {{PD-URAA}}, for URAA compliant images. --AussieLegend (talk) 09:23, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

The Commons template is the same, though; I guess that's something to bring up over there. And if government publications aren't PD in the US unless they're pre-1946, we still can't use them, right? Frickeg (talk) 09:42, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

New Australian wikiprojct proposal

FYI, I just noticed this: Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Transport in Australia

-- 76.65.128.60 (talk) 08:44, 13 August 2012 (UTC)

Anyone in Canberra on Friday?

It would be really great if some one was available Friday to help run a workshop at the University of Canberra for the Australian research group doing work on dementia. --LauraHale (talk) 02:13, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

you may want to notify mail:wikimediaau-l. It has 121 member subscribed (22 are using digests); while most of them will be in the 348 watchers of WP:AUSN, they arnt notified of the posts to this board. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 06:31, 14 August 2012 (UTC)

Small towns

Hi. I've noticed a lot of small towns across Australia don't have a page, and a vast majority of those with pages have no picture. I just created Guanaba, Queensland, but I could only find one good reference. Is it possible to focus on this? Can we have people driving to those towns and taking pictures? That would be very useful. Thanks!Zigzig20s (talk) 18:10, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

Hi. Thanks for your interest in articles on small towns in Australia. You have touched on one of the reasons it is difficult to write articles on small towns in Australia - a lack of quality on-line sources. There is a "to-do" list at Wikipedia:WikiProject Australia/To-do/Localities that you may add to if you wish. While I support your idea of focusing on creating missing articles on small towns, we are a project of volunteers and everyone has their own interests. Some of us are quite busy driving around to small towns and taking photos but Australia is a big country and it takes time to get around everywhere. That said, there are a lot of places that we have photos for that don't yet have articles - so that may be an option for you. Cheers, Mattinbgn (talk) 23:29, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I would advise some caution with this query - this user is regularly puts reqphoto against places (and has been doing so for years) without much appreciation of the innacessability or context of locations. For anyone who has driven the long distances of Australia, or been to the more outlandish and hard to access locations, perhaps Zigzig needs to understand that (a) many small towns have so few redeeeming features as to be un-notable or distinguishable from other small towns as top make photos close to pointless (b) Australia is a big place and there are few wikipedians in isolated locations (c) reqphoto becomes redundant and nuisance when done in blanket editing with little or no understanding of local context (d) many small towns dont have a page as they are possibly not even towns but names of localities with very low level notability, and consequently are unlikely to have adequate WP:RS to justify addition.

Please note I queried this editors actions in relation to inconsequential localities in Tasmania some years ago (other editors were querying this form of editing as early as 30 June 2007) and I remain sceptical of such a project as adding 'reqphoto' as having any long term benefit to the larger sheme of things. SatuSuro 23:36, 15 August 2012 (UTC)

I'm in agreement. He tagged a bunch of relatively isolated localities near Mandurah a week or two ago and I queried it at his talk page. It makes the tag itself worse than useless if it's blanketed, as we stop using it and start using more observational measures. Orderinchaos 16:15, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Well, I disagree, I think the tag reminds us we need to add a picture. Sure, it may take time, but at least we know it. I don't drive, but I intend to travel to Australia soon and I will definitely take a bus to those small towns to take pictures if I can. Everyone should try to do the same thing. Meanwhile, on another topic, I am going through Australian politicians and adding reqphoto tags when they don't have a picture. This should be VERY easy to fix as most politicians are in parliament either in Canberra or the state capitals. Thanks again for your help. I do hope we can create more pages with pictures.Zigzig20s (talk) 17:20, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for improving Guanaba, by the way!Zigzig20s (talk) 17:25, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Unless you're volunteering to fly out and take all the photos yourself, I strongly suggest you stop adding the tags. It's disruptive to the project. And you can't take a bus to Anketell, Banksiadale, Casuarina, Keralup, Mount Wells, Nambeelup or North Yunderup, to name just a few examples (Mount Wells you can't even drive to, it's on the Bibbulmun Track). A fair number of these locations are simply the area bordered by lines on a map looking a lot like this. If your intention is to put a tag on every single article which does not have a photo, this *prevents* Australians from adequately using the tool to identify likely targets, as it is not "A user who actually has use for an image has requested", it's just "Someone who was bored one day decided to tag this for no apparent reason, we have no idea why or whether a photo of this location would even add to the quality of the encyclopaedia, and we can't tell whether this location is more important than any other of the zillion others the same user has tagged". And given literally dozens of the articles you have tagged have photos on Commons, people may be going out of their way to take photos which already exist on a Wikimedia project. Orderinchaos 17:47, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I would love you or someone else to go through wikicommons and add pictures once I've tagged them--or even if I haven't. I don't have time to go through wikicommons. I also don't have time to read your angry diatribes, sorry.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:36, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Yet you have time to sit on here tagging hundreds of articles... Orderinchaos 18:38, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

I just added a picture of Hilton, Western Australia, but it's not a good one at all. So it's absurd. Somebody please take a better picture (of the townhall or main street).Zigzig20s (talk) 18:41, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

By the way, reqphoto tags aren't meant just for people in this wikiproject. Someone about to travel to a small town may very well see a reqphoto tag and then decide to add a picture.Zigzig20s (talk) 18:43, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

There isn't a "town hall or a main street" - that church is probably the most major feature in the suburb. See [2] Orderinchaos 18:47, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Actually this picture looks good: Perry Lakes Reserve. But I wish I didn't have to do it all on my own...Zigzig20s (talk) 18:48, 16 August 2012 (UTC)