User talk:Aflis

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Welcome[edit]

Hello, Aflis! Welcome to Wikipedia! Thank you for your contributions. You may benefit from following some of the links below, which will help you get the most out of Wikipedia. If you have any questions you can ask me on my talk page, or place {{helpme}} on your talk page and ask your question there. Please remember to sign your name on talk pages by clicking or by typing four tildes "~~~~"; this will automatically produce your name and the date. If you are already excited about Wikipedia, you might want to consider being "adopted" by a more experienced editor or joining a WikiProject to collaborate with others in creating and improving articles of your interest. Click here for a directory of all the WikiProjects. Finally, please do your best to always fill in the edit summary field when making edits to pages. Happy editing! Cracked acorns (talk) 23:45, 29 November 2010 (UTC)
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Citations[edit]

Hey there. Just noticed your edits to the Languages section in Angola. It's a big improvement, however the referencing could be better. First of all, referencing another wikipedia is not allowed per policy. Secondly, if you could format the other references in a standard format, that would be great! Perhaps look at WP:CT, which provides templates you can use to just fill in information! Keep up the good work. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 10:32, 22 January 2011 (UTC)

Thank you for your comment. I wrote that text down yesterday in a sort of a hurry, on the basis of my ongoing work on Angola, and am aware I need to add one or two references. I have still not learned to do so in a more sophisticated way - and as I am an "old donkey", as they say in my tribe, I am not sure I will be able to lear. - I know about the rule not to establish links to, or to borrow contents from, other WPs, but I think this is a different case altogether: I am giving an information on another WP, because this illustrates extremely well a point I made in the text. Agree? Aflis (talk) 11:38, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
I've removed your comment back here, as I prefer conversations in one place. You placed that on my userpage, User:Chipmunkdavis. All comments should go on the talkpage, eg. User talk:Chipmunkdavis. Be careful, some people don't like others editing their user pages!
Anyway, just follow WP:CT and it should be easy to cite properly. As for the wikipedia reference, it's not what I think, references to WP just aren't allowed per WP:RS. Perhaps there's a newspaper source somewhere? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 12:20, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
Ok, concetrating the discussion here suits me fine. Normally people want answers on their own talk page, in order to be automatically informed. But where has the rest of my talk page gone? Did you by any chance delete it??- "Citing properly": I have tried, but "old donkeys"....- If I read the rules right, they do not exclude the kind of reference/mention I made, but don't lets waste time on this: if I come across appropriate news on one of the Angolan online magazines I am receiving, I shall insert it. Aflis (talk) 19:06, 22 January 2011 (UTC)
I can't find any other part of your talkpage. What exactly is missing? Anyway, any article or text from a newspaper or magazine or something mentioning a specific portuguese dialect would be fine for the point. Good job on the section anyway, much better than the previous two lines. Chipmunkdavis (talk) 03:09, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
I am deadly sorry: I simply mixed things up, as I am navigating between WPs. This talk page on en-WP was in fact brand new, and nothing disappeared from here. Sorry again for making you lose your time. - I just found out the article on Angola was accessed about 100,000 times in December (on en-WP), so this is a good reason for continuing to work on it. - Speaking of "Angolan Portuguese" (or "Brazilian Portuguese", for that matter) in terms of a "specific dialect" is not, I think, in line with the definitions used in linguistics. Or are "British English" and "American English" dialects? Anyway, I prefer to use the neutral term "version", so that nobody gets offended. NB: In Angola, the coloial habit was to speak of African languages as "dialects", refusing them the status of "languages" - so this is a sensitive issue... Aflis (talk) 13:38, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
No time wasting, no apologies necessary. Linguistic definitions are continually debated, maybe "Register" is an appropriate term? I'm not a linguist, but if you want help I can try to point you in the direction of users who know linguistics a lot better than me. Are the African "dialects" considered a single language then? Chipmunkdavis (talk) 13:45, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

I'm not a linguist either, but have studied (modern European) languages & literatures, and the curriculum included a modicum of linguistics. So that I know a bit about the definition and classification difficulties. "Register" is possibly a good proposal for the present ("transitional") state of Portuguese in Angola, while it would e.g. no longer apply to Brazilian Portuguese. - In Africa, like in Europe, there exists a variety of languages, and some of them have several dialects. In Angola the latter is e.g. the case of Umbundu, Kimbundu and Kikongo. Aflis (talk) 14:17, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

Ah well, you have more formal education than me. If you do find a source, add something to Portuguese in Africa as well. Ta, Chipmunkdavis (talk) 14:40, 23 January 2011 (UTC)
Ok, will do. Bye Aflis (talk) 15:23, 23 January 2011 (UTC)

DYK for Uíge Province[edit]

HJ Mitchell | Penny for your thoughts? 18:02, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

I had/have no doubt that this information is exact. However, my reaction was/is that it did not belong in an article that tries (should try) to feature the basic characteristics of that province. And these were in fact not affected by this epidemic. Aflis (talk) 11:15, 29 January 2011 (UTC)

Question[edit]

Greetings Aflis,

Nice to meet you. May I ask you, what native languages can you speak? (apart from English and Portuguese)

--Jose77 (talk) 04:20, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Hello Jose77: that is a complicated story; to make it short: I am also (to greatly varying degrees) contributing to the WPs in French, German, and Spanish. Almost exclusively on Lusophone Africa. And you yourself? Aflis (talk) 09:45, 5 April 2011 (UTC)

Angolan Civil War[edit]

Hey Aflis I'm done with basic cleanup and sectioning of the Angolan Civil War article. You're free to get on with revising the contents; I'd assist but I'm afraid I don't know a great deal about the events of the war itself.Michaelmas1957 (talk) 16:22, 4 May 2011 (UTC)

Angolan War of Independence[edit]

Unfortunately, Aflis, we will have to agree to differ, as I do not think it is wise to describe colonialists as 'explorers'. An explorer is somebody who just wanders around. A colonialist is somebody who invades a country and establishes a colony. Do you see the difference? I can't see the point of trying to hide the fact that it was the Portuguese crown that bestowed it's legal status of 'city' to the colony. Why would an encyclopedist want to hide the truth?

I think we should guard against the danger that some disgruntled Portuguese nationalists might try to present the slave-trading, war-mongering, colonialist and thoroughly racist Portugese empire as kind of benign heavenly land of miscegenation and progress. I am sure you agree:)Ackees (talk) 11:46, 13 May 2011 (UTC)

User:Aflis/Angola-P[edit]

Hi Aflis. It might have been a good idea for me to leave a message here before removing the categories the second time around just to avoid that confusion. Here's what I think happened. Who put those categories in? Actually, you did though you did not notice. When you created User:Aflis/Angola-P, you copied a chunk of Angola (Portugal) which contained the text that creates membership in the categories. More specifically, if you click on the "Edit" tab of User:Aflis/Angola-P, you'll find at the very bottom

[[Category:1975 disestablishments]]

[[Category:Former Portuguese colonies|West Africa]]

... and so on. This is not text that actually shows up when you read the article itself. Its effect is to place the article in Category:1975 disestablishments, Category:Former Portuguese colonies and so on. You can read more about this mechanism at Help:Category. Obviously, it's not a good idea to have user drafts appearing in categories. I could have simply deleted the 10 lines of text responsible for that but I did something a little less radical (though it's more technical!). If you go back to the source, you'll see that what I did is actually add the marker <!-- before the list of categories and the marker --> after the list. This "disables" the categories but it makes it possible for you to still see what the categories would be if you removed those markers. You say that you're not a big fan of technical things so there's a risk that at this stage of my explanations you're a little lost, a little tired of reading about these things or both! I still hope it cleared up some things and obviously feel free to ask more questions about this or any other technical issues. I'm always happy to help and if I'm not around, you can also add {{helpme}} to your talk page and (or so I'm told) someone will respond faster than you can click "save page"! Cheers, Pichpich (talk) 11:43, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Fay.farstad Edits[edit]

The reason these edits were reverted is because this new editor has been exclusively adding new links to the source of those articles without any additional content, and so they come up as external spam links. If effort was made to add relevant information to the articles and introduce these sources as references, they might be a useful addition. Ajbpearce (talk) 22:04, 21 June 2011 (UTC)

I entirely disagree with this procedure. For several months now, I have (intermittently, because my time is limited) contributed to improving the Angola related articles, which are on the whole rather unsatisfactory, to say the least. One of their shortcomings is often a lack of adequate sources. Faye Farstad's appearing on the scene and offering a number of fresh and relevant references is in this situation clearly helpful - they are without any doubt "useful additions" in their own right, and should be respected and welcomed as such. I certainly do welcome them in the context of my ongoing efforts (that will take several more weeks). Classifying them as "spam" or "vandalism" is in this perspective completely inappropriate. Aflis (talk) 22:26, 21 June 2011 (UTC)


Thanks for the support! Its such a shame the links are deleted as spam or promotion when its truly just about knowledge sharing. The Angola Programme is unique, of world class academic quality and an efficient portal for those seeking information. CMI does not wish to promote itself. But I see that the best (but perhaps more labourious) way of putting the word out there about all the ongoing research is to put references into the text itself. Adding the link was my preferred way of doing it, as not all academics and researchers use wikipedia or have the time to put out their research, so this was my way of streamlining the process. 158.37.160.210 (talk) 08:59, 22 June 2011 (UTC)

VDiver Edits[edit]

Hello Aflis. I'm sorry, I'm afraid you can't count me in to add Angola related articles on a regular basis. I'm not very familiar with the whole angolan situation or history, but I had a burst of curiosity about Ruanda's genocide, which I satisfied here. That lead to the Congo wars and later to the Angolan politics. I actually saw some reference to this situation in some other article, and investigated for myself, and improved that one. I'm afraid I'm quite unfamiliar with this editing wikipedia stuff, much less Angola facts. VDiver (talk) 16:30, 3 August 2011 (UTC)

Talkback[edit]

Nuvola apps edu languages.svg
Hello, Aflis. You have new messages at Courcelles's talk page.
Message added 20:16, 26 August 2011 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Courcelles 20:16, 26 August 2011 (UTC)

Restructuring the Angola-related articles [copied from the Portuguese Angola talk page][edit]

Earlier, you wrote:

Having over the last decades specialised in studies on Angola, I am a newcomer to WP. To my surprise, I have discovered the country is dealt with not only on a main page, but on several complementary pages as well. However, while my first reaction was to consider this as positive, I have since come to rather negative conclusions. On the one hand, not all articles (or sections of articles) meet WP standards in terms of quality, sources, neutrality etc., and some parts are simply bad. On the other hand, there is a stunning lack of consistency among several articles, in terms of facts and analyses. Also, they often either overlap - or then leave out important points. The only solution seems to consist in overhauling all articles, without exception, and in this process deciding which ones are to be maintained autonomously, and which ones are better lumped together. I am not sure this is the best place to start this discussion. If it is not, is could be transferred to the discussion page of the main article. Aflis (talk) 11:16, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

If you didn't already figure this out, for something so wide-ranging, one of the WikiProjects (I'm thinking Angola's) is probably best. [Ok, I can see from that page you did figure that out.] Angola (Portugal) certainly deserves to remain as a former state or state subdivision. Some of the other articles do overlap and/or suck, though. For example, Precolonial history of Angola is actually a history of its colonial-era history and the colonial-era history can be included on the colony's page until its long enough to merit it's own namespace.

As for finding editors, you can always take over a listless WikiProject and encourage people with barnstars. Better yet, if you studied Angola in anything like an academic setting, you can assign student projects on certain pages. A few hours of homework at Google Books or Archive.org or Gutenberg Project (remind them Wikipedia is not a source) should improve plenty of Angolan-related stubs like Paulo Dias de Novais. — LlywelynII 00:12, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Hello LlywelynII: Thank you for your suggestions. In the meantime, I have discovered that the situation is similar in others WPs, especially in pt:WP where there are more than 1500 which (sometimes in a broad sense) are related to Angola. I have also found out that across several WPs (de, en, es, fr, nl, pt) the number of people contributing in this field is extremely low, and that it is difficult to mobilize people who have a solid competence. The problem are less articles on specific and limited subjects (like Paulo Dias de Novais or the Benguela Railway) which in fact can be written (or revised) drawing on online sources only, but the key articles that require historical, sociological, economic, political etc. knowledge. At this stage, I quite sincerely don't see how the task of overall restructuring & revising Angola related articles (in whatever WP) can be coped with. I shall probable concentrate on pt:WP where there is some chance of joining forces with 3 or 4 others - and make the occasional contribution to en:WP. -- Aflis (talk) 10:27, 17 September 2011 (UTC)

Changes to Bakongo Article[edit]

I am reworking a lot of things on the Bakongo and Bakongo related sections of Wikipedia right now. I haven't yet got over to the Kongo piece, which I think is very weak in the later nineteenth century and early twentieth century. There is a lot of work that is needed there, and I plan to do some. I did work in Angola and the Angolan archives this past summer, so I'm prepared to make some changes. Beepsie (talk) 17:48, 7 October 2011 (UTC)

Hi , the name of Angola (Republic of Angola) in the 3 main indigenous languages is official or is more of an (important) cultural reference? Thanks. Teixant (talk) 22:14, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

@Teixant: While Portuguese is the only official language in Angola, the six most important local languages have been recognized as "national languages". When I found out that somebody hadd added "Repubilika ya Ngola" in he infobox, I considered the a good idea, and clarified that this is the wording in three of the six languages. The truth is I don't know about the three other ones (chokwe, nganguela, kwanyama). NB: Você não é por acaso moçambicano e amigo do Rui Silva? -- Aflis (talk) 23:12, 8 October 2011 (UTC)

JES[edit]

Hi Aflis, thanks for the inquiry. Yes, in the source that I added, at the bottom of the page 12, it is claimed that he got two degrees in Baku. Thanks. Atabəy (talk) 15:59, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

At the bottom of page 12, the source says: "In 1963 he went to study in the Soviet Union at the Baku Petroleum and Gas Institute, receiving degrees in petroleum engineering and in radar communications". So, the claim is that he completed the degrees in Baku, not in Brazzaville. It could be that he received only petroleum engineering degree, but then, why would the source lie about the dual degree in radar communications? Atabəy (talk) 17:41, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

You voted twice[edit]

You voted twice on Verifiability, 116 and 154, please remove the second one! Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 14:18, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Sorry for the distraction! Aflis (talk) 15:26, 1 November 2011 (UTC)
It's at Wikipedia talk:Verifiability. Til Eulenspiegel (talk) 15:34, 1 November 2011 (UTC)

Re:Outline of Angola[edit]

Aflis, you wrote:

I have been working on Angola related articles over the last year or so, but only now discovered there exists an "Outline of Angola". Which is, of course, useful but should be announced somewhere where people interested in Angola can find it - e.g. in the Angola Project and in the article on Angola, don+t you agree? -- Aflis (talk) 14:17, 12 November 2011 (UTC)

A link to Outline of Angola was added to the See also section as of 23:23, 12 June 2009, and has been there ever since. Based on your comments above, I've added a link to the outline to Template:Angola topics. Please add further notices and links wherever they would be appropriate. Thank you for the heads up. The Transhumanist 21:52, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

The outline of Angola needs you[edit]

This outline needs a dedicated developer/maintainer who is familiar with Angola-related subjects, to add missing links, to keep the page updated, and to monitor edits for vandalism and errors.

The outline needs you.

Please remember this, whenever you work on Angola-related topics: Is it in the outline yet?

Thank you. The Transhumanist 22:07, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

No, although we both have very high IQs, his higher than mine though! I just have his talk page on my watchlist from the olden days. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 11:57, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

What??? I saw your message on his talk page as its on my watchlist and informed you as I believe he is on a break. Understand now?♦ Dr. Blofeld 12:13, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Workbase means listing missing Angola-related articles on the Angola project page/s, using it to draft articles, compile sources etc on Angolan topics.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:22, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Angola and most African countries have extremely few contributors on wikipedia due to systematic bias and you'll find most African county wiki project are unactive.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:16, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Invitation[edit]

You are cordially invited to join the Outlines WikiProject. I look forward to working with you. Sincerely, The Transhumanist 22:07, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

Both your invitations are flattering and tempting, but I have a serious problem: my main commitment concerning Angola on Wikipedia is with pt:WP - and en:WP, de:WP as well as fr:WP have been having lower priorities in this regard. As a consequence, my overall workload on Wikipedia already exceeds my capacity - not least because of my commitments in "real life". Thus thank you for your invitations, but it would be unrealistic for me to accept the latter, while I think that in the future I may have some time for the Outline of Angola - not as a permanent maintainer, but for the occasional cleaning and adding. Aflis (talk) 23:24, 13 November 2011 (UTC)

I can use all the help I can get. Thank you very much! I look forward to seeing your improvements to the page. - Portuguese. Interesting. They don't have outlines on the Portuguese Wikipedia, do they? Are you good at translating?   :)   By the way, is there a name in portuguese for "hierarchical outline"? The Transhumanist 04:45, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

As far as I can see, there is no exact equivalent for the outlines on en:WP, neither on pt:WP nor on the other WPs I know. On pt:WP as well as on de:WP they use "portal", which is similar. One can say "portal hierárquico", of course. - Aflis (talk) 10:10, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

Angola[edit]

I think Blofeld just has my user talk page marked - we are not the same person, we just have similar interests. Yeah, unfortunately, there isn't a lot of specific attention to the topic of Angola, or, for that matter, a lot of other smaller countries. I am currently a bit less active than I might like, but, if you would like, I could easily forward to you any articles on specific topics that you have interest in. Just drop me an e-mail with your address and the specific idea of what you want information on and I can pull up any relevant material from the databanks I have access to. John Carter (talk) 00:18, 15 November 2011 (UTC)

Angola war[edit]

I am virtually certain that there are any number of articles available, including journals. Books might be a bit harder to forward, but give me a few days and I will send you everything I can find. It may be rather a lot. And, it is possible I might be able to access some recent books as well, but I'll start with the magazine/journal articles first. John Carter (talk) 22:26, 18 November 2011 (UTC)

I regret to say one question comes to mind, specifically, what to do with articles on subjects directly related to the Angola war, but not necessarily dealing with the Angolan war per se. I am thinking about articles dealing with biographical material, groups involved, perhaps locations of battles before and after the battles, etc. There seem to be a lot of articles that fall in that general range. Would you want them included in the articles sent to you or not? John Carter (talk) 23:22, 21 November 2011 (UTC)

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Cabinda- removal of info?[edit]

excuse me, but i did not "remove" any info. Sundar1 (talk) 16:59, 8 January 2012 (UTC)

Angola[edit]

Olá. Nunca vivi fora de Portugal. Smsagro (talk) 12:16, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Porquê o interesse por Angola antes da independência? Ser português não basta? Smsagro (talk) 20:17, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Barnstar[edit]

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This barnstar is awarded to everyone who - whatever their opinion - contributed to the discussion about Wikipedia and SOPA. Thank you for being a part of the discussion. Presented by the Wikimedia Foundation.

Luanda[edit]

The Luanda "city" page is a page that seems to talk about the urban area as a whole, which includes much of Luanda Province. Anyway, the subdivisions were already on the city page. I simply updated them since the 2011 restructuring of the province. The Luanda city page is still very much a work in progress. I just discovered it, yesterday, and it was kind of a mess as far as the statistics and definitions were concerned. --Criticalthinker (talk) 13:06, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, if the Luanda city page is to be a page about the Luanda Municipality, perhaps we should list the comunas as the subdivisions instead of the municipios. Do you happen to know which communes constitute Luanda Municipality? --Criticalthinker (talk) 13:22, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
I agree that it is a bit tricky to draw the line between Lunda (City) and Luanda (Province). Still, in terms of administrative divisions the distinction is clear. The "municípios" considered as constituting Luanda (City) are: Cazenga, Ingombota, Kilamba Kiaxi, Maianga, Rangel, Sambizanga, Samba, Viana and Cacuaco. -- Aflis (talk) 17:19, 5 July 2012 (UTC)
Actually, I'm talking about the communes that make up Luanada (municipality), which I thought we agreed is what the page should be primarily about. The municipios are actually seperate cities in their own right within the province. The subdivisions that we should probably list should be for the communes within the Luanda Municipality. As you said, the municipality subdivisions belong on the page for Luanda Province. What communes consistute Luanda Municipality? --Criticalthinker (talk) 02:32, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I shall have to go after proper sources as to the communes. Regarding population, we shall have to wait for the 2013 census in order to get reliable figures, especially as there has been an enormous mobility into and within the city (and province). -- Aflis (talk) 09:10, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for looking into this. I'm interested to see which communes make up the 113 km2 Lunada Municipality. --Criticalthinker (talk) 02:20, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

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Isabel dos Santos[edit]

Hello Aflis, I am still around, please have a look at this in en.wiki to translate into pt.wiki.--Cruks (talk) 15:43, 9 August 2012 (UTC)

José Eduardo dos Santos[edit]

Hello Aflis - Just to inform you that I didn't add the founding date of the MPLA to the above article, it was already in the article - I only moved its position to suit the grammar. Regards. Denisarona (talk) 06:18, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Referencing[edit]

Hello Aflis. Sorry if my comment about the referencing in the edit summary was a little harsh. When you put references in, you need to format the link so it has the title of the story, and then provide details like source name (e.g. BBC, CNN etc) and the date of article. I notice that a few times you've put in references to Sol and Publico without links - if the info is online, it's far better to link it. There is a proper referencing template ({{cite}}) which you can use, although personally I don't like it. Lihaas uses the WP:REFLINKS programme to fill in the cite template, but as you can see from my last edit on the article, it doesn't really do a good job! Things to avoid are using phrases like "as below", "see below", "see X", etc. Number 57 13:33, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

@Number57: I confess I didn't even understand that comment, and much less that I was supposed to be the "beneficiary": that reference was not mine! That said, I am of course entirely in favour of avoiding aggressive language. - As to reference templates and programmes, they confuse me, and I have decided to ignore them, for the time being. I must say I am quite astonished about the wiki techniques I have been able to learn in a relatively short period of time. - "see" is in fact superfluous in many places, but can on occasion be helpful. -- Aflis (talk) 14:09, 3 September 2012 (UTC)

Hello again. I see you have added another reference to Publico today, but no link or title of the story. This really isn't a good idea, as effectively makes it impossible to check the reference is correct. If you want to reference a Publico story, please link to the page on their website. I assume you were referring to this story when you provided the one about CASA taking the same position as UNITA. Cheers, Number 57 09:26, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I shall try and follow your advice. As I am at present Lisbon based, regularly receive the printed version of Público, and mostly edit on pt:WP, I hadn't really seen the problem. -- Aflis (talk) 11:30, 4 September 2012 (UTC) NB: The article I added as source is "Oposição angolana denuncia fraude e contesta resultados eleitorais". Somehow I cannot find it online. It is possible that not all printed articles go into the online edition.

Mbundu[edit]

You have a response at User talk:Bejnar. --Bejnar (talk) 05:57, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

Requests for new titles[edit]

Titles of articles are changed by the process of moving. Established articles are normally moved by the process at WP:Requested moves, which is really quite simple. Articles are tagged so that interested parties can see the proposal on the talk page, discussion is open for a week to ten days, and then the proposal is either accepted or not. I would really suggest reading Wikipedia:Article titles. I have gone ahead and posted move requests for the Ovimbundu and Umbundu, to show you how easy it is. I will check later today. Let me know if you feel too uncomfortable with the process to initiate it yourself for the Ambundu and Kimbundu, and I will do those as well. I am off now for several hours. --Bejnar (talk) 14:12, 25 September 2012 (UTC)

@Bejnar: I think I have basically understood the process, but your intuition is right: I never feel comfortable with such procedures, whether in WP or elsewhere. I am thus happy (and relieved) that you have taken the lead, and yes, if you are ready to go on with Ambundu and Kimbundu, please feel free to do so. -- Aflis (talk) 20:47, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
Okay, I will get to it shortly. Meanwhile, you should leave your comments on the discussion pages for the two requested moves already in play: Talk:Southern Mbundu people#Requested move and Talk:South Mbundu language#Requested move See Talk:David Wright (baseball)#Simply "David Wright" for an example of a requested move discussion. --Bejnar (talk) 21:19, 25 September 2012 (UTC)
@Beynar: Somebody moved "Southern Mbundu people" to "Ovimbundu", but did not the same for "Southern Mbundu language" > "Umbundu". On the talk page of the latter article, I think I now made it clear that "Southern Mbundu language" is after all a kind of a misnomer and should be done away asap. Could you take the initiative? --Aflis (talk) 10:39, 3 October 2012 (UTC)
We generally go with the root form, so that we have a common form for the people and their language. (Few English speakers are comfortable with Bantu noun classes.) Probably better to have "Mbundu people (Ovimbundu)" and "Mbundu language (Umbundu)", vs "Mbundu people (Ambundu)" and "Mbundu language (Kimbundu)". — kwami (talk) 23:15, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami: Sorry to disagree. It has just been decided to do it the other way round (see the discussion/voting), because in this case using just the root leads to a consuion between the two Mbundu peoples. Also, in the literature on Angola the terms effectively used have since long been Ovimbundu/Umbundu as well as Kimbundu, while Ambundu has become accepted more recently. For people not familiar with Angola redirects will solve the question. -- Aflis (talk) 09:25, 7 October 2012 (UTC)

Angolan elections[edit]

The template's heading is a link directly to Elections in Angola - see {{Angolan elections}}. Number 57 17:36, 3 October 2012 (UTC)

This template is on the article in question. It's heading is "Elections in Angola". Number 57 08:21, 4 October 2012 (UTC)

Re Angolan Civil War[edit]

There is no record of a General "Konstantin Shaganovich" (or "Schaganovich") in the Soviet military. He was apparently invented by Western journalists, who combined the biography of airborne forces General Kurochkin and the name of an infantry officer, General Shakhnovich. If you are able to understand Russian, you can confirm this by Googling "генерал шаганович" and clicking on the first result, which should be an online version of a recent book by the Russian military officer Igor Zhdarkin, a veteran of the Angolan war (footnote 44). Zloyvolsheb (talk) 17:22, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Everybody knows that Soviet advisers and specialists were involved in the Angolan Civil War. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 17:38, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
I'm not aware of combat units, but I'm not an expert on the details, sorry. Zloyvolsheb (talk) 19:10, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Tuchokwe[edit]

Hi,

I'd like to add the people & lang forms to the Chokwe article, but "Tuchokwe" is a very odd human plural for a Bantu language. Can you confirm it's correct?

kwami (talk) 23:12, 6 October 2012 (UTC)

Right you are. "Tu-" is in fact the plural prefix (Tuchokwe = the Chokwe people), while the language prefix is "U-". The Chokwe language is thus Uchokwe (they now spell it "Ucôkwe" in Angola). Its like Umbundu for the Ovimbundu. -- Aflis (talk) 23:20, 6 October 2012 (UTC)
How did that develop? Is it class 2, or an abbreviation for something else? — kwami (talk) 02:08, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
Sorry, my "collateral" study of linguistics doesn't go that far. I have the information just from native Uchokwe speakers. -- Aflis (talk) 09:09, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
Okay, thanks. What's the form for one person? That will complete the ethnonym table. — kwami (talk) 09:24, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
I shall have to ask by email, as I am not in Angola now! -- Aflis (talk) 10:09, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
No biggie. We have other articles missing the singular. You can add it to the article if you like if you find out. — kwami (talk) 20:44, 7 October 2012 (UTC
In the meantime I have the info: the prefix for one person is ka-. So its kachokwe, tuchokwe, and uchokwe. Like ocimbundu, ovimbundu, umbundu. -- Aflis (talk) 21:53, 7 October 2012 (UTC)
That's a very odd set of prefixes! — kwami (talk) 01:56, 8 October 2012 (UTC)
I had the same reaction, but then I am not a linguist. Anyway, that's how they speak & write...-- Aflis (talk) 10:52, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

Mbunda people[edit]

You said (at Talk:Mbunda people:

This page should not be speedy deleted as an unambiguous copyright infringement, because there is no copyright infringement. As it stands, the text is a preliminary draft where the author uses information taken from another of his texts (for which he holds copyright). This draft has, of course, to be developed as well as streamlined, and I propose to assist in this process. I thus propose that there is no deletion, and that the author & myself are given the possibility to give it a fully adequate shape.

Sorry, you are very mistaken. You've been provided with an explanation how to solve the problem, but you cannot use this material without permission, even if it is your own.--SPhilbrick(Talk) 00:48, 8 October 2012 (UTC)

The material is not mine, but user:Libingi's. I am just stepping in to help, because his material is absolutely unique. For me the problem is not the use of this material, but the way in which Libingi's text is structured - which in my view is not compatible with what has to be expected from the article of an encyclopedia. My proposal was not to delete the article, but to give me the chance of revising the text incisively. In the end, I shall do this on a personal page of mine, and when the article is finished (which no doubt will take some time, because of my commitments in "real life"), I shal transfer it to its proper place. -- Aflis (talk) 11:23, 8 October 2012 (UTC)


@Aflis (talk) I hope you are fine. I am sorry to have not sent you the book soon. However, as you await the book, I request you to look at my Mbunda people draft below, I worked on in my sandbox:

@Libingi: Unfortunately I have not been well at all. For about a week, I was a regular customer, of the emergency services of the Lisbon British Hospital. In the end, the case turned out not to be really dramatic, but it once again cost time and energy. - Your text below no doubt constitutes an improvement over the first attempts, but - as frankness is in order between the two of us - I am obliged to say it is still not conveniently structured, and that quite a number of points of detail need correction or verification. I prefer not to go further before having had a good look at the volume edited by Papstein. - By the way: I have been cntacted by email by a Mr. Alexander representing a "Mbunda Kingdom Cultural & Historical Research Project", a group that seems to be quite disctinct from yours. -- Aflis (talk) 20:59, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

@Aflis (talk) Thanks for your response. I am sorry about your health, I really wish you speedy recovery. I did this specially for you to review and add your professional touch after receiving the book.

I am not supprised the so called Alexander contacted you. The group by a Mr. Alexander also blind copied email messages to all our members in our email book list, including His Majesty King Mbandu. The King requested us to investigate, and our investigation revealed that it is a propaganda tool used by the Barotse Free State (Linyungandambo), trying to fight for the cessation of Barotseland from Zambia. I will comment in detail, I am not sure if this is the right place, I wish I knew your email address. Given below is my alert email we sent to the Mbunda fraternity after exposing him:

The Mbunda Fraternity, BE WARY

In my last email, I insisted that the so called R. Alexander Mbundakingdom@gmail Institution is questionable because:

1) Questionable Identity,

2) Similarity of their symbols with that of http://www.barotseland.info/ (Linyungandambo),

3) Their acquisition of the Cheke Cha Mbunda email book list,

4) Similarity of the http://www.barotseland.info/ and http://www.mbunda.org/ websites design.

5) Similar salutation of Rt Hon Ndandula Libingi to that found on http://www.barotseland.info

To confirm my suspision, please check the email below, after the Barotse National Council:

1) The characteristics of the signatory; remove Mutangelwa and t Hon, you remain with the famous R. Alexander.

2) The Cheke Cha Mbunda email book list was acquired after the recent refuting of the Times of Zambia report on Mwene Chiyengele and the Nkoya Kazanga, which was copied to barotseland.government@gmail.co.

Dear Mbundas, do not be duped into believing their high sounding response email about the so called Mbunda Kingdom Cultural & Historical Research Project. They may have "members consist of several Eminent University Professors the majority of them whom are now in semi-retirement both in South Africa, the United Kingdom and else where" However, I doubt that, "there is vast material on the Mbunda Culture both in South Africa and in the United Kingdom", if so, why trying to source information from us?

In my interaction with the Ethonologist sholars on Wikipedia Encyclopedia, it reveals to the contrary and I quote; "The migrations of the different ethnic groups of Eastern Angola (we do no longer speak of "tribes", which is yet another inappropriate concept Europe applied to Africa) is, in principle, on the research agenda of some historians and anthropologists, but so far the research findings are rather limited. With regard to the Mbunda resistance to Portuguese occupation, I have just found a few pages in the volumous book on the Portuguese military campaigns in Angola, written by the French historian René Pélissier. Could you let me know what other sources you are drawing upon? - With respecto to our initial point, national languages, I am still looking forward to answer from Luanda. -- Aflis (talk) 22:22, 28 September 2012 (UTC)

I therefore find the high sounding profile of R. Alexander questionable. Let us continue to be on guard to avoid our enemies manipulate what we stand for. Please note that the email referred to below was not responded to.

Yours in National Service,

Ndandula Libingi National Chairman


Forwarded Message -----

From: Barotseland Government <barotseland.government@gmail.com>

To: Cheke Cha Mbunda (Zambia) <chekechambunda@yahoo.com> 

Sent: Sunday, April 1, 2012 7:17 PM

Subject: Re: Cheke Cha Mbunda Submission To Barotse National Council 26 - 27th March 2012

Government in waiting of Barotseland

Kingdom of Barotseland, Southern Austral Africa

Linyungandambo, Tukongote Litunga Ni Lyetu

Rt Hon Ndandula Libingi

National Chairman

Cheke Cha Mbunda Cultural & Writers Association

Dear Sir,

Thank you for your timely and well written speech. We shall publish this in the Portal of the Government in waiting of Barotseland.

Could you please indicate the following:

1 - Could you send me a map of the traditional territory of the Mbunda Nation prior to the Berlin Conference of 1885.

2 - Could you please send me a list of the Mbunda Royal Establishment.

3 - Could you please indicate if Barotseland in the eyes of the Mbunda People should id be a Federation of two Nations such as the Helvetic Federation of Switzerland where the French, German and Italian speaking Peoples have their own Self Government and their own Armed Forces.

4 - Could you please send me in Mbunda National language this sentence: TUKONGOTE LITUNGA NI LYETU

Best regards,

The Rt Hon Alexander Mwangelwa Clerk of the Executive Council

http://www.barotseland.info/


So, from above you can see that they are tracking almost everyone we are communicating with. They must have gotten your contact from our email alerting the Mbunda fraternity. Check on http://www.webstatsdomain.com/tags/mbunda+kingdom you will find that their registration details are suspicious. Their domain was created on 02nd April 2012, immediately after my speech at Barotse National Council, check http://www.barotseland.info/Mbunda_Chairman.htm. The question is; why are they hiding their identity. They hae since not responded to us. These are not Mbundas but a group of Lozis trying to use this propaganda tool to fight the Mbunda position in opposing the cessation of Barotseland from Zambia. I suggest you carry out your assessment. Libingi (talk) 21:37, 18 December 2012 (UTC)

Mbunda people[edit]

Mbunda Mbúùnda
Person Kambunda
People Vambunda
Language Chimbunda
Country Angola, DR Congo, Zambia, Namibia

The Vambunda (singular Kambunda, adjective and language Mbunda, Mbúùnda or Chimbunda), is an bantu ethnic group who lives on the Southeast of Angola from the Lunguevungu river in Moxico Province to Cuando Cubango Province. In their migration they first settled in KOLA in what is now the Democratic Republic of the Congo along the Kalanyi River, where they interacted with the Kingdom of Lunda and Kingdom of Luba,[1] in the 15th century under their ruler, King (Mwene) Nkuungu, with their capital at Namampongwe [2]. From there they settled in the 16th century for some time at the confluence of the Kwilu and Kasai rivers (now Democratic Republic of the Congo).[3] A significant group of them still lives there, and The Mbunda language spoken by the Mbunda group that remained in the DR Congo, entirely separated from the rest of their people, is of course a special case. Due to passage of time and interaction with other languages, it has become quite different from the variants spoken in Angola, Zambia, and Namibia, and is today even considered as belonging to a different linguistic category. [4]

Mbunda is one of the largest ethnic group in Angola, which is made up of several ethnic groups: Yauma language,[5] Nkangala language,[6] Mbalango language, Sango dialect, Shamuka dialect, Ndundu language and Mashaka language, all of them alive in southeast Angola. .[7]

The Mbundas were talented iron (vutale) and copper (vunegu) workers and proficient hunters and soldiers with their bows and arrows. They were also remarkably skilled at the art of making pots and jars of baked clay. The Mbunda cultivated the tropical forest which was found in where they grew assorted crops. They grew maize, millet, sorghum, beans, and sweet potatoes and cassava being teir staple food. They also kept domestic stock. Their traders came into contact with the Portuguese, and Umbundu traders of Bié Plateau of central Angola, who largely traded in bee wax, ivory trade and rubber, in exchange with guns and cloth material.

Overwhelmingly the Vambunda follow Christianity, with roughly equal shares falling to the Catholic Church and to different Protestant denominations, mainly the Igreja Evangélica Congregacional de Angola (IECA), founded by American missionaries. However, some still retain beliefs and practices from African traditional religions, believeing in Njambi as a supreme creator of the world who created everything of existence on earth. Their religion did not address Njambi directly, but through the spirits of their ancestors.

Origins and the legend of migration history[edit]

The Mbunda were among a group of Bantu people who left what is now Sudan during the Bantu migration in the early centuries [8] to form one of the oldest and biggest ethnic grouping in Southern Africa and a Mbunda Kingdom in 15th Century [9]

The first Mbunda Monarch was King Mwene Nkuungu. Thereafter, the Mbunda shifted their base within the Kola area and settled in a place more favourable than their previous habitation, where they found Ruund (Luunda) people already settled. While there, Queen Vamwene Yamvu, the third Mbunda Monarch, married a Ruund (Luunda) hunter and relinguished her rulership to the husband.[10]. Her brother Prince Munamwene Nkonde was so incensed with her conduct that he led the majority of the disenchanted Mbunda populace away from the area and later settled near the confluence of the Kwilu and Kasai rivers.[11] Later, unfavourable weather conditions, the Mbunda in a two migration route moved south and south east into the now Angola in the 1600.

The Mbunda language spoken by the Mbunda group that remained in the DR Congo, entirely separated from the rest of their people, is of course a special case. Due to passage of time and interaction with other languages, it has become quite different from the variants spoken in Angola, Zambia, and Namibia, and is today even considered as belonging to a different linguistic category.

In the southern route, to the south of the confluence of Kwilu and Kasai rivers, the fifth Mbunda Monarch, King Mwene Chinguli traveled all the way south to the now Kwandu Kuvango chasing the Bushmen and replacing them in the new found lands with the Mbunda descendants who later known as the Chimbandi, the Ngonjelo, the Humbi, the Lwimbi and the Nyemba.

In the second migration route and during the reign of Queen Vamwene Kaamba, the seventh Mbunda Monarch, the Mbunda explored and settled new lands to the east of the now Angola, where they discovered a great river, which they named Lindonga lya Mbayi, which literally means, "the great river of Mbayi", and abbreviated to Lyambayi, after one of the royal Princesses, Princess Vamunamwene Mbayi, one of the daughters of the sixth Mbunda Monarch, Queen Vamwene Mbaao, and who was a sister to Queen Vamwene Kaamba, drowned in this unnamed river's turbulent waters, in the process of crossing the river. Through the passage of time to this day, the Mbunda still call the Zambezi river “Lya Mbayi”. This was a very sandy area with small rivers which were all tributaries of the Zambezi River. Like the Zambezi these smaller rivers had very wide flood plains which were wonderful areas for grazing cattle. Even better the higher lands adjacent to the flood plains were ideal for planting their favorite crop, cassava. It was along these tributaries to the Zambezi that the first Mbunda decided to settle in Mbundaland, which is now part of Angola. [12].

The Mbunda set their first capital at Mithimoyi. However, the need for more settlement land was still vital to the quickly growing population. Queen Kaamba sent some of the Mbunda to search for more settlement land to the south. The group settled at nearby river region called Luchathzi, who were later called after that river as the Luchazi.

This expansion also gave way to dialects such: Katavola (Mbunda Mathzi), Yauma,[13] Nkangala,[14] Mbalango, Sango, Ciyengele ("Shamuka"), and Ndundu, all of which are close.[15] all of them alive in southeast Angola. Out of the two route migrations of the Mbunda from the confluence of Kwilu and Kasai rivers, southeast of the now Angola was inhabited by a thirteen Mbunda descendant enthnicity of the Mbunda Mathzi, the Chimbandi, the Humbi, the Ngonjelo, the Lwimbi, the Nyemba, the Luchazi, the Sango, the Mbalango, the Nkangala, the Yauma, the Ndundu and the Mashaka. The Mbunda continued expanding southwards to a larger settlement, where the Mbunda Kingdom continued to flourish in what became known as Mbundaland from Lungwevungu river to Kwandu Kuvango, with Lumbala Nguimbo becaming their capital, where His Majesty King Mbandu III reigns today.

At the end of the 18th century some of the Mbunda migranted to Barotseland Mongu. [16] upon the migration of among others, the Ciyengele [17] The Aluyi and their leader, the Litunga especially prized the Mbunda for their ability to fight. When the Luvale also known as Lovale invaded Barotseland from the north, the Mbunda to countered the invasion and were victorious, ending the Lovale invasions. King Mulambwa also cemented the bond of friendship between the Aluyi and the Mbunda by ceremonially giving a sharp pointed pole called mulombwe to Mwene Chitengi Chiyengele and confirmed his stay in Barotseland as the Senior Chief of the Mbunda. This and other factors earned the Mbunda to be included on the Barotse National Council.[18]

Secondly, the Mbunda fought alongside Aluyi in the Aluyi/Makololo war in 1830, which ousted the Makololo occupation of Barotseland, leading to the establishment of the Mbunda Chieftainship at Lukwakwa under Mwene Sikufele now in Kabompo District, being a descendant of the Mbunda that supported Prince Mubukwanu of the Aluyi.[19] The Makololo from the south introduced the Sotho language spoken not only in Western Province today but also Botswana, Lesotho, South Africa and Caprivi Strip.[20]

The Mbunda also fought alongside the Aluyi against the Tonga in the 1880’s, ermaging victory as the Tonga had no defense against the Mbunda‘s skill with a bow and arrow, resulting in the Lozi/Mbunda and Tonga Cousinship. Later the Kaonde/Lozi war which Lozis warn with the help of the Mbunda war machinery, resulting in the Mbunda Chieftainship of Mwene Kasimba having firmly been established there at the confluence of the Lalafuta and Kyamenge in 1893, opposite Chief Mushima Njivumina of the Kaonde. In honoring the Mulambwa/Chiyengele Treaty, the Mbunda have remained the true allies of the Aluyi both in military and political matters.[21] The Mbunda lived peacefully, tendeing their cattle and growing cassava, maize and rice, while many of the men left their homes to work in the South African mines. With independence from British rule came in 1964 the practice was discouraged and the men were then recruited to work on the sugar plantations of Zambia.

At the beginning of the 20th century due to their resistance to Portuguese colonial occupation, when the Portuguese colonialists abducted the twenty first (21st) Mbunda Monarch, King Mbandu Lyondthi Kapova (Kathima Mishambo), the Mbunda waged a fierce armed campaigns in defending their Mbundaland. Technology However, aided the Portuguese forces in gaining an upper hand in the war as they had a consitant supply of gunpowder for their guns. Without the knowledge to make gunpowder, the mbunda eventually found their muzzle-loaders useless and increasingly relied on their bows and arrows as well as a few other traditional arms which were suited for close contact warfare. The Portuguese firepower took a heavy toll of the Mbunda, some of whom started to throw their muzzle-loaders in the rivers for lack of gunpowder. The Portuguese eventually dislodged the Mbunda Kingdom extending Angola territory over Mbundaland. This caused the second migration of the Mbunda to Barotseland.[22]

And later because of the impact of the Angolan War of Independence (1961–1974), the decolonization conflict in Angola (1974/75). Independence came to neighboring Angola in 1974 and with independence came civil war. Again many Mbundas fled Angola to relocate in nearby western Zambia, this marked the third and fourth wave of Mbunda immigration to the now Western Province of Zambia. These refugees were related to those Mbundas who were already living around Kalabo, Senanga, Mongu, Kaoma, Lukulu and Kabompo in Zambia. As a consequence of the latter, a number of Mbunda also took refuge in Northern Namibia, in the Caprivi Strip around Rundu.[23]

The Mbunda have maintained most of their old traditions such as respect for their ancestors, “coming of age” rituals for both boys (Mukanda and their not less than fifty Makishi artifacts), girls (Litungu or Bwali), relying on cattle and cassava for their food, men carry weapons such as bow and arrows, spears or machetes when traveling away from their villages and women still creating baskets from makenge roots [24].

List of Mbunda Kingdom Rulers in Succession From 1500 To the Year 2012[edit]

1). King Mwene Nkuungu: - Namampongwe Palace, KOLA, in the now DR Congo.

2). Queen Vamwene Naama: - Namampongwe Palace, KOLA, in the now DR Congo.

3). Queen Vamwene Yamvu: - Namampongwe Palace, KOLA, in the now DR Congo.

4). King Mwene Nkonde: - Mapamba Palace, Confluence of Kwilu and Kasai rivers, in the now DR Congo.

5). King Mwene Chinguli cha Nkonde: - Mapamba Palace, Confluence of Kwilu and Kasai rivers, in the now DR Congo.

6). Queen Vamwene Mbaao ya Chinguli: - Mapamba Palace, Confluence of Kwilu and Kasai rivers, in the now DR Congo.

7). Queen Vamwene Kaamba: - Mithimoyi Palace, south of Lyambayi (Zambezi river source), Mbundaland, in the now Angola.

8). King Mwene Chingwanja: - Mithimoyi Palace, south of Lyambayi (Zambezi river source), Mbundaland, in the now Angola.

9). King Mwene Lweembe: - Mithimoyi Palace, south of Lyambayi (Zambezi river source), Mbundaland, in the now Angola.

10). King Mwene Katete: - Mithimoyi Palace, south of Lyambayi (Zambezi river source), Mbundaland, in the now Angola.

11). Queen Vamwene Mukenge Livindamo: - Mithimoyi Palace, south of Lyambayi (Zambezi river source), Mbundaland, in the now Angola.

12). King Mwene Kathangila: - Mithimoyi Palace, south of Lyambayi (Zambezi river source) and Kweve river, a tributory of Kwitu river, Mbundaland, in the now Angola where he finaly settled.

13). King Mwene Yambayamba Kapanda: - Livambi Palace, at the confluence of Lungevungu and Luyo rivers, Mbundaland, in the now Angola.

14). King Mwene Chingumbe Cha Choola: - Lilembalemba Palace, along Lukonya river, Mbundaland, in the now Angola.

15). King Mwene Chitengi Chingumbe Chiyengele: - Who left to settle in Barotseland in frustration, during the reign of King Mulambwa of the Aluyi.

16). King Mwene Ngonga I Chiteta: - Lukonya Palace, along Lukonya river, Mbundaland, in the now Angola.

17). King Mwene Nyumbu Luputa: - Luvweyi Palace, along Luvweyi river, Mbundaland, in the now Angola.

18). King Mwene Ngonga II Linjengele Kawewe: - Lwanginga Palace, along Lwanginga river, Mbundaland, in the now Angola.

19). King Mwene Katavola I Mwechela: - Kutupu Palace, along Kuputu river, Mbundaland, in the now Angola.

20). King Mwene Katavola II Muthangu: - Kavongo Palace, along kavongo river, Mbundaland, in the now Angola.

21). Mwene Mbandu I Kapova: - Kalyamba Palace, along Lunjweva and Lwati rivers, Mbundaland, in the now Angola.

22). Mwene Mbandu II Kathzungo Xaanda: - N'inda and Lwati Palaces, in Angola.

23). Mwene Mbandu III Mbandu Lifuti: - Lumbala Ngimbu Palace, in Angola.


References[edit]

  1. ^ Almanac of African Peoples & Nations, page 523. By Muḥammad Zuhdī Yakan, Transaction Publishers, Putgers - The State University, 35 Berrue Circle, Piscataway, New Jersey 008854-8042, ISBN: 1-56000-433, read it on [1]
  2. ^ Robert Papstein, Mbunda Origin, The Zambia Journal of History, Central African Oral History Project, University of Zambia, ISBN: 998203006X
  3. ^ Almanac of African Peoples & Nations, page 523. By Muḥammad Zuhdī Yakan, Transaction Publishers, Putgers - The State University, 35 Berrue Circle, Piscataway, New Jersey 008854-8042, ISBN: 1-56000-433, read it on [2]
  4. ^ This and this at ethnologue.com.
  5. ^ Ethnologue lists Yauma as "unclassified", an apparent error, as it also notes that it is "part of the Ngangela subgroup" of the Chokwe–Luchazi (K.10) Bantu languages.
  6. ^ Not to be confused with the Ngangela language
  7. ^ Bantu-Languages.com, citing Maniacky 1997
  8. ^ Terms of trade and terms of trust: the history and contexts of pre-colonial, pages 104 & 105...By Achim von Oppen, LIT Verlag Münster Publishers, 1993, ISBN: 3894732466, 9783894732462
  9. ^ Almanac of African Peoples & Nations, page 523. By Muḥammad Zuhdī Yakan, Transaction Publishers, Putgers - The State University, 35 Berrue Circle, Piscataway, New Jersey 008854-8042, ISBN: 1-56000-433, read it on [3]
  10. ^ Robert Papstein, The Zambia Journal of History, Central African Oral History Project, University of Zambia, ISBN: 998203006X
  11. ^ Almanac of African Peoples & Nations, page 523. By Muḥammad Zuhdī Yakan, Transaction Publishers, Putgers - The State University, 35 Berrue Circle, Piscataway, New Jersey 008854-8042, ISBN: 1-56000-433, read it on [4]
  12. ^ Robert Papstein, The Zambia Journal of History, Central African Oral History Project, University of Zambia, ISBN: 998203006X
  13. ^ Ethnologue lists Yauma as "unclassified", an apparent error, as it also notes that it is "part of the Ngangela subgroup" of the Chokwe–Luchazi (K.10) Bantu languages.
  14. ^ Not to be confused with the Ngangela language
  15. ^ Bantu-Languages.com, citing Maniacky 1997
  16. ^ The elites of Barotseland, 1878-1969: a political history of Zambia's Western Province: a. Gerald L. Caplan ISBN: 0900966386 Publisher: C. Hurst & Co Publishers Ltd, 1970
  17. ^ Bantu-Languages.com, citing Maniacky 1997
  18. ^ Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Africa and Middle East, Facts On File library of world history, Facts On File, Incorporated, Social Science, Infobase Publishing, 2009, ISBN: 143812676X, 9781438126760
  19. ^ Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Africa and Middle East, Facts On File library of world history, Facts On File, Incorporated, Social Science, Infobase Publishing, 2009, ISBN: 143812676X, 9781438126760
  20. ^ White, C.M.N. Notes on the Political Organization of the Kabompo District and its Inhabitants, African Studies, IX, (1950), pp. 185-93,
  21. ^ Encyclopedia of the Peoples of Africa and Middle East, Facts On File library of world history, Facts On File, Incorporated, Social Science, Infobase Publishing, 2009, ISBN: 143812676X, 9781438126760
  22. ^ René Pélissier, La révolte des Bunda (1916-1917), pp. 408 - 412 (French for "the Mbunda revolt"), section footnotes citing sources: Luís Figueira, Princesa Negra: O preço da civilização em África, Coimbra Edição do autor, 1932.
  23. ^ Franz-Wilhelm Heimer, Der Entkolonisierungskonflikt in Angola, Munich: Weltforum Verlag, 1979 ISBN 3-8039-0179-0
  24. ^ Robert Papstein, The Zambia Journal of History, Central African Oral History Project, University of Zambia, ISBN: 998203006X


Further reading[edit]

  • Robert Papstein The History and Cultural Life of the Mbunda Speaking People, Lusaka Cheke Cultural Writers Association, 1994, ISBN 99 820 3006X
  • Abshire, D.M. and Michael Samuels, eds, Angola Handbook, London, 1965,
  • Bull, M.M. Bulozi Under the Luyana Kings, London, 1973,
  • Davidson, Basil, In the Eye of the Storm: Angola's People, New York, 1973,
  • Duffy, J. Portuguese West Africa, Cambridge, 1961,
  • White, C.M.N. Notes on the Political Organisation of the Kabompo District and its Inhabitants, African Studies, IX, (1950), pp. 185-93.
  • José Redinha, Etnias e Culturas de Angola, Luanda: Instituto de Investigação Científica, 1975; reprinted fac-simile by the Associação das Universidades de Língua Portuguesa, 2009, ISBN 978 989 8271 00 6


External links[edit]

Category:Ethnic groups in Angola


I have tried to strimeline and use a different word structure. I am not sure if this will help in the burden of your trying to help out! Libingi (talk) 20:00, 16 December 2012 (UTC)

Invitation[edit]

May I invite you to join the ranks of Wikipedia:SOCIO#Participants? --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 06:08, 2 April 2013 (UTC)

Since you've edited some articles related to sociology, I think you may be interested in collaboration with others interested in it. See Wikipedia:WikiProject_Sociology#Scope for the basics, Wikipedia:WikiProject_Sociology#Our_tools four our cool gadgets, and the project's talk page for ongoing discussions. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 02:52, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

I have registered as semi-active. I am a sociologist, but preferinterdisciplinary work, and have been focusing on Sub-Saharan Africa for decades. --Aflis (talk) 17:22, 16 June 2013 (UTC)

German Wikipedia[edit]

Dear Aflis, you undid my edit on German Wikipedia. You refer to an "official" statistic. Note that the statistic i pointed out in my edit is the actual statistic, and that the statistic shown on meta is a day old. Also note the "official" statistic on meta can be changed by me or anyone else if they feel like it. The statistic will be updated in the next 24 hours and my edit will be correct then also according to the "official" statistic. Undoing my edit, simply because the wrong information is shown on a backlogged database, mans adding wrong information to Wikipedia. The info on the article right now is wrong. Wrong. Meaning not true. Sincerely, Taketa (talk) 21:30, 14 June 2013 (UTC)

Are you saying the template on my user page on pt:WP (which exists on others WPs as well)is not a reliable source? -- Aflis (talk) 09:33, 15 June 2013 (UTC)
Yes I am. It has a delay. The number there is old. It even says on your pt.wiki userpage: "Última atualização: 9 de junho 2013". So it is 5 days old... The actual numbers can be found on any wiki by going to Special:Statistics. Sincerely, Taketa (talk) 16:17, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Isabel dos Santos[edit]

The information you are trying to re-insert was removed because of privacy concerns. If you have proof that the subject's other family members are notable (as her father seems to be) then provide a reliable source that says exactly that. Otherwise please stop. This type of material falls under WP:BLPPRIVACY and as such is not subject to interpretation, however to repeat myself, you are more than free to include it if you also source it appropriately. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 21:40, 7 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't want to be impolite, but for someboday with a minimum knowledge of Angola your reaction is grotesque. Sorry, but your writing "as her father seems to be" is simply ludicrous: José Eduardo dos Santos has been President of Angola for over 30 years and is by far the most notable person in the country. Also, his wives (he married four times) and children are, all of them, public figures. Isabel dos Santos is particularly well known, not only because she is in charge of the family fortune, but also because she is mestiça and has a Russian mother, which makes her and her mother outstanding figures in Angola. So much so that asking for "approprioate sources" will be resented as gross ignorance, by Angolans als well als be people reasonably acquainted with the country. In fact, this is one of the cases where a user of WP clings to formal rules and is not aware that in a given case it does not make sense to aplly them. -- Aflis (talk) 16:00, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
WP:V, especially when we're dealing with living persons. Provide a source, or keep it off the article. It's that simple. I mentioned her father because he has an actual article, so it's a different situation than other family members who don't. It doesn't matter what you think the truth is, or what your perceptions of the issue are. "I know this is the case" doesn't fly when dealing with BLPs, and as an experienced editor you should know that. §FreeRangeFrogcroak 16:20, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Your case is apparently hopeless. I had expected you to unterstand that in a situation of this kind asking for sources is senseless. Obviously I misjudged your mental structure. In any case, I recommend you the lecture of Angolan newspapers. -- Aflis (talk) 23:29, 8 August 2013 (UTC)
Even the biography of the President of the United States requires references. If you cannot (or will not) understand that, please refrain from editing BLPs until you do. §FreeRangeFrog[[User

talk:FreeRangeFrog|croak]] 00:08, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

As I am beginniing to loose my patience, I prefer not to answer and would prefer I you spared me further comments. Aflis (talk) 13:01, 9 August 2013 (UTC)

Kimbundu[edit]

Why do you insist on saying that Kimbundu is also known as Kimbundu? That's just silly. — kwami (talk) 20:27, 25 January 2014 (UTC)

First of all, I am sisappointed that you call other people silly. I had not expected you to use that kind of language. Secondly, I am eetanished about your misunderstanding of the language box. Pleaso do look it up once again, and you will see that this box provides three categories for the name: (a) The generally used name in international scientific literature, which is also the title of the article; (b) alternative names, if they exist; (c) the native name (which mat, or may not, be the same as the internationally used name. Following this logic, we have to use "Kimbundu" as the internationally used name, mention "North Mbundu" as an alternative name (by now rarely used, by a few non-Angolan scholars), and in the third place inform the reader that the native name coincides with the generallly used name (which often is not the case). NB: This is the same logic as followed for "Umbundu".Aflis (talk) 17:45, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
Perhaps you should look again. It says Kimbundu, North Mbundu, Kimbundu. In other words, Kimbundu is and alternative name for Kimbundu. That's what I called silly, and I was being polite in using that word. — kwami (talk) 22:37, 26 January 2014 (UTC)
You should jave a fresh look at the language box. The seqiemce is name, altname,nativename. Thus "Kimbundu" is the generally used name, "North Mbundu" is the alternative name, and the second "Kimbundu" is the native name, not (of course) the alternative name. Aflis (talk) 00:00, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
Who cares what the encoding is? That means nothing. All the reader sees is that "Kimbundu" is also called "Kimbundu". I called that "silly" earlier because I was trying to be nice. Now I'll say what it really is: idiotic. Stop edit warring over it or I'll ask to have you blocked for disrupting the article. — kwami (talk) 07:24, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
I am not warring; I am just following the logic of the language box - like e.g. in the case of "Umbundu". It is you who should be blocked for not keeping to the rules of the box and for using foul language. Aflis (talk) 17:36, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
This is idiotic. Do you really feel that "Kimbundu, also known as Kimbundu", is helpful to our readers? Those fields are intended for alternative names, not to repeat ourselves like parrots. — kwami (talk) 20:18, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
I've changed the first line to reflect your edit. Do you really see this as an improvement? — kwami (talk) 20:22, 27 January 2014 (UTC)
So you think it is normal to use foul language and to insult the person you are communicating with? What sort of a person are you? Aflis (talk) 10:49, 28 January 2014 (UTC)
If you make stupid edits, it's perfectly acceptable to point that out. Everyone says stupid things, and you should be able to see what is wrong with the edits you're making. And you should take it to the talk page for discussion rather than edit warring over it. — kwami (talk) 23:22, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Final warning[edit]

Quit edit warring at Kimbundu and take it to talk, or I will ask to have you blocked. — kwami (talk) 23:20, 28 January 2014 (UTC)

Its you who has been warring and insulting, so that its you should be blocked or bannedAflis (talk) 17:29, 29 January 2014 (UTC)

March 2014[edit]

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Welcome back[edit]

I'm glad to hear you're doing better. Welcome back! — kwami (talk) 09:04, 6 March 2014 (UTC)

Portuguese in Africa[edit]

Dear Aflis. Please see my comments on the talk page. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 00:30, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

Fui lá mas não encontrei os comentários!!! -- Aflis (talk) 18:10, 25 April 2014 (UTC)

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Mbundas and Nganguelas and COI editing[edit]

Olá Aflis. Hi Kwami. Em primeiro lugar, os meus votos de que o seu estado de saúde tenha mudado para o melhor. Nao sabia que que estava doente, vi agora em várias discussões sobre o povo/ a língua bunda. Um forte abraço,

Now, in English, as this is the same message that I have left for Kwami - not sure if the Nganguela issues applies to you too, too many discussions on too many talkpages.

I have just come across the series of articles on the Mbunda people/ language/ kingdom/ list of kings/ etc. I see that you tried to help the creator of these articles, and at times displayed your frustration with his methods. I am trying to understand what it was that was done on the Nganguela language, as I see references indicating that based on said editor's sources you would be redirecting Nganguela and Nyemba to Mbunda. Could you comment on that? Also, all the information on the Mbunda seems to come from the book commissioned by the editor's association, which is a collection of oral interviews with Mbunda people. I find very little on the editor, Robert Papstein and another author cited a number of times, Muḥammad Zuhdī Yakan. Other then WP pahges and WP mirrors and sites called wiki-something and something-pedia, these two names seem to be basically unknown. In the time that you tried to help the editor, were you able to find anyhing about these sources and whether they have ever been peer-reviewed or accepted by the academic and scientific communities? I have taken the issue to the COI noticeboard and would welcome your participation. Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 14:14, 3 September 2014 (UTC)

Holá Gabriel Correia: o assunto que coloca é de facto intricado. Tentando responder de maneira resumida, direi o seguinte: (a) o volume organizado por Robert Papstein é uma colecção de textos do tipo "história oral", recolhidos por um grupo de Mbunda e que foram revistos/organizados por Papstein. (b) sobre o Papstein apenas sei que é (foi??) um antropólogo e trabalhou na Universidade Livre de Amesterdão. (c) Até hoje nunca vi uma referência a Muhammad Zuhdi Yakan. (d) Em 2012/2013 prometi ajudar na redacção sobre os Mbunda para a en:WP, mas problemas de saúde (que continuam a limitar-me fortemente) impediram-me de fazer este trabalho. (e) Se não lhe der muito trabalho, muito gostaria ter as referências dos artigos que menciona. (f) Para além do material recolhido por Robert Papstein, conheço poucas fontes relevantes sobre os Mbunda. A razão principal é que não tive condições para dedicar-me a séria ao assunto. Dois livros úteis que encontrei são os de René Pélissier e de José Redinha que sem dúvida conhece. (g) Quanto à língua nganguela, no fundo apenas sei que desde a independência de Anngola existe um grupo de trabalho (enquadrado no Ministério da Cultura, se não estou em erro), cuja tarefa é a de definir as chamadas "linguas nacionais", ou seja, as línguas regionais mais importantes. Inicialmente esclolheram o kikongo, o kimbundu, o umbundu, o côkwe, o mbunda, o nyaneka e o kwanyama. Mais tarde, o mbunda foi substituído pelo nganguela. Não sou linguísta, mas tenho fortes dúvidas sobre a ctegoria nganguela, que de qualquer maneira não deve ser confundida com o mbunda.. --Aflis (talk) 17:40, 3 September 2014 (UTC)
Olá Aflis. Sinto muito saber que continua a lutar com problemas de saúde. Desejo-lhe muita força, ânimo e coragem. Ainda não cheguei a fazer um levantamento dos artigos alterados pelo usuário Libingi/ Ndandulalibingi para além do que apresentei no COI Noticeboard. No entanto, basta consultar as contribuições do editor, procurar edições onde fez grandes alterações (ver o volume em Kbs) e logo encontra edições descabidas, como por exemplo incluir em todos os artigos por onde passa que o rei dos bundas foi levado pelos portugueses. Isto, mesmo depois do Aflis e o Kwami terem várias vezes chamado a atenção 'a importância se não misturar questões sobre "Mbunda people" com questões sobre "Mbunda language". Para as minhas investigações, saberia me dizer quando se deu a substituição do mbunda pelo ganguela? Outra questão é diferença entre o passado e o presente - os chefes tradicionais não podem continuar a ser chamados de reis, pois o reino não existe e a constituicao angalona reconhece autoridades tradicionais, mas como soba grande, soba e seculo. Um abraço, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 03:47, 4 September 2014 (UTC)

Jones[edit]

Hey, she will be the coach in 2016 and not NOW! Already added in the article down low... So, your edit was just wrong. Kante4 (talk) 18:14, 31 March 2015 (UTC)

Right you are. My mistake. --Aflis (talk) 09:46, 1 April 2015 (UTC)
No problem, just wanted to make sure we don't end in an edit war. ;) Kante4 (talk) 15:19, 1 April 2015 (UTC)

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OK, no problem. I suppose I was distracted. --Aflis (talk) 17:06, 6 April 2015 (UTC)

Developments in Luanda, where else?[edit]

Olá Aflis. Como vai essa saúde? O artigo é sobre Luanda, de onde mais se estaria a falar? Turcomenistão? Boa. ;-) Um abraço. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 16:40, 30 April 2015 (UTC)

Obrigado por perguntar, mas a saúde vai só assim-assim. Quanto à letra a acompanhar a imagem: claro, é lógico que só se pode tratar de Luanda, mas como há gente que precisa de avisos explícitos, não custa nada dizer isto com todas as letras - como aliás no caso da outra imagem no mesmo artigo. De resto, "development" tem que figurar no singular, como termo técnico que designa um dado (mega) projecto de desenvolvimento. Abraço Aflis (talk) 12:51, 1 May 2015 (UTC)

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Mbunda - Bunda[edit]

Entendeu a diferença? Está tudo . Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 18:34, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Bem, é claro que tenho uma noção razoável de que há diferenças, de língua e não só, entre os Mbunda de Angola/Zâmbia/Namíbia e o grupo na RC Congo. O que me surpreende é que, se bem entendo, se propõe uma distinção, digamos, terminológica, designando os primeiros como "Mbunda", e o último como "Bunda". Confesso que não gosto nada do uso de "Bunda", que me recorda as tolices do tempo colonial (e o tipo de pessoas que as cometiam...), mas se esta distinção for geralmente aceite, paciência....De resto, vejo naturalmente os problemas da abordagem do Libingi, mas depois de quase meio século como professor universitário eu não tenho a propensão para uma atitude como a sua, de "bater no ceguinho".... Aflis (talk) 21:28, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Spelling of names in Angola[edit]

Hi Aflis. Another thing related to the above. We can't speak of Portuguese spelling names wrong, when Portuguese was the only written language in Angola at the time. In fact, you can speak of the missionaries spelling African names wrong, as the overwhelming majority of them were foreigners and were spelling them according to how they felt it shoud be. African languages did were not written until after that and were influenced by the spelling of the foreign missionaries who were translating the bible into Angolan languages. I just saw this by on this discussion page: "Muene .... the Portuguese in those times frequently misspelled African names, I suppose this is the "Mwene" you are looking for". Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 21:06, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

@Rui Gabriel: Discordo. A grande maioria dos missionários católicos eram portugueses: os capuchinhos no norte e os espiritanos no centro etc., misturados com alguns poucos espanhóis; do lado dos protestantes houve estrangeiros, nos baptistas entre os Bakongo, os metodistas entre os Ambundu (cedo substituídos por naturais de Angola), os congregacionais entre os Ovimbundu, e os adventistas nos núcleos que tinham no centro e no leste. Entre os protestantes, especialmente na IECA (os tais congegacionais) houve, sim senhor, uma tentativa de respeitar as línguas dos povos onde trabalhavam, e as formas que estes davam (e dão) aos seus etnónimos. Os católicos seguiam a este respeito os atropelos que geralmente tiveram como primeira origem nos administrativos, militares ou comerciantes portugueses - sendo depois "consagrados" por etnógrafos autodidactas (ou com corsos no famigerado ISCSPU). Aflis (talk) 21:54, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Pois. E eu falo especificamente dos protestantes - centenas deles, americanos, belgas, suíços, suecos, alemães, finlandeses, britânicos, etc. Por isso, mantenho, grafavam como ouviam. Falar em "tentativa de respeitar as línguas dos povos onde trabalhavam, e as formas que estes davam" é não só absurdo como um contra-senso, pois eles é que estavam a alfabetizar as populações, a tentar criar ortografias etc. Aliás, isso de "grafia angolana" está muito mal contado. A grafia africana usa-se nas línguas africanas e a grafia portuguesa usa-se em português - nada mais lógico. Por isso que o Bornito de Sousa já tem um diploma pronto para apresentar na assembleia no sentido de que todos os topónimos em documentos na língua oficial serão grafados em português - incluindo o Rio Cuanza, que nada tem a ver com a moeda Kwanza, nome que foi escolhido para esta. Mas as pessoas tem dificuldade de entender ou acham-se que é necessário curvar-se ao politicamente correcto e não parecer que são colonialistas e insistem em usar grafias africanas sem entender do que se passa. Já os angolanos não têm esse problema e os que escrevem nas línguas nacionais escrevem topónimos de Portugal ou qualquer outra parte do mundo na grafia das línguas nacionais. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 23:29, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

Lamento amigo, mas esta resposta contém alguns erros factuais e interpretações que não "colam". Primeiro, os missionários estrangeiros sempre estiveram em número inferior aos missionários portugueses: ver os trabalhos da excelente historiadora luso-angolana Conceição Neto, do suíço Didier Péclard e do catalão Ramon Sarró. Segundo, na matéria que estamos a discutir, os "protagonistas" do lado português não eram geralmente os missionários, mas os grupos que já referi: administrativos, militares, comerciantes e alguns etnógrafos - juntamente com os missionários portanto uma "máquina" com muito mais força do que os missionários estrangeiros: eu vivi esta situação. Terceiro: não é "absurda e um contra-senso" a caracterização por si rejeitada acima. O que eu quis dizer, e mantenho, é que de facto os missionários estrangeiros prestaram bastante mais atenção às línguas africanas do que o lado português (salvo honrosas excepções - p.ex. o da minha sogra, mulher de comerciante do mato, fluente na língua do povo onde vivia. Os missionários estrangeiros, com destaque para a IECA, "ouviam" com mais atenção os africanos, transcrevendo as suas palavras - incluindo os etnónimos - com mais cuidado e mais correctamente. (Kwanza é foneticamente mais correcto do que Cuanza, porque o "w" inglês, que é ao mesmo tempo um símbolo fonético na linguística internacional, corresponde melhor à pronúncia africana do que o "u" português....é só um exemplo). Portanto, o que está aqui em causa não é a "political correctness", nem o "curvar-se" a quem quer que seja (reacção que, perdoe-me, acho um bocado triste). Trata-se de usar os etnónimos africanos nas formas que melhor correspondem à maneira como os próprios os usam, e que por isso são internacionalmente aceites. Poderíamos continuar e alargar este debate, entrando inclusíve no campo da psicologia social dos portugueses, mas para já tenho que parar. Abraço Aflis (talk) 11:44, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

For the record: o "politicamente correcto" e "curvar-se" não se referiam a si mas aos colegas que não entendem nada do assunto e perpetuam infindáveis debates sobre Botswana/ Botsuana e semelhantes. Sei que prefere ficar longe desses debates e dou-lhe toda a razão. De resto, debater mais a questão não vale a pena, pois cada tem a sua maneira de ver e a sua resposta também contém graves erros. Dei-me ao trabalho de fazer uma consulta rápida a várias fontes e afirmo que de acordo com essas fontes os missionários estrangeiros em Angola chegaram a ser 263 ou 267 (guardei a fonte, mas não tenho agora tempo. A minha família vive em Angola desde a fundação da colónia de Moçâmedes, sou a sétima geração nascida em Angola, tenho um tio historiador que já escreveu uns 9 livros sobre Angola. Quanto a "kw" ser "foneticamente mais correcto" que "qu", realmente não sei onde foi buscar isso. Sou formado em linguística, falo sete línguas, todas têm esse som, cada uma com a sua grafia - tal como em português: quando, quadro, quatro, quaresma, qualificar, e milhares de outras. Quanto ao que você chama o "w inglês", antes do "kw" usavam o "qu" e ainda têm muitas palavras com "qu" com exactamente a mesma pronúncia que "kw", como: quail, quake, quaker, quack, quarrel, quiver, quaver, quick, quibble, etc, etc, etc, etc, etc, ... Quanto a uma outra sua afirmação sobre a impossibilidade de portugueses em dizer "tchokwe", "o som tch" não apresenta a mínima dificuldade para falantes de português. Se me falasse do "th" ou "i" em "bitter", seria outra coisa. Boa noite, um abraço, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 20:06, 14 May 2015 (UTC)

Bem, bem, bem. Este é realmente um assunto que, a ser discutido por escrito, consome muito tempo - e como não é prioritário (para os dois, suponho - o melhor é mesmo não continuar. Para encerrar, três esclarecimentos. (a) Eu tinha entendido que aquilo do "politicamente correcto" não se referia a mim, portanto não me senti ofendido. (b) Também não tenho presentes as fontes sobre o número dos missionários, mas parece-me que o dos portugueses era maior. De qualquer maneira, tinham a "vantagem" de, neste assunto, fazrem parte de toda a máquina colonial. (c) Pelo que o meu ouvido me diz, o "w" inglês (ao que muitos falantes dão uma qualidade de semi-vocal) está mais perto do correspondente som em umbundu e kimbundu do que o "u" português. Espero ter ouvido o que outros também ouviram. Naturalmente sei que, em certas palavras inglesas, este som é expresso pelo letra "u", mas acho perfeitamente lógico que, para efeitos de clareza, se tenha preferido usar a letra "w" nas línguas africanas. (d) Claro que os portugueses conseguem pronunciar o "tsh", tanto assim que não têm qualquer dificuldade em seguir a designação, hoje oficial em Angola, de "côkwe", onde (por razões que ignoro) a letra "c" é usada para expressar o "tsh". Simplesmente, no tempo colonial recuavam como regra de combinações "inusitadas" de consoantes - o que no caso dos côkwe deu aquela aberração dos "quiocos", endossada pelo José Redinha, o Mesquitela Lima e outros. E pronto: por mim, vamos doravante conversar sobre outras coisas. Abraço. Aflis (talk) 13:20, 15 May 2015 (UTC) PS: Dos livros que o seu tio publicou, em princípio sou capaz de conhecer um ou outro: n~zo me dá alguma referência? Aflis (talk) 17:48, 15 May 2015 (UTC)

Acabei de acordar depois de umas horas de sono após a entrega de uma tradução que me deixou dois dias e duas noites colado ao teclado. Quando quiser, eu até gostaria de conversar pelo Skype, fala-se melhor, poupa tempo, não há ambiguidades e se houver sanam-se na hora, entendemo-nos melhor, estamos mais próximos e quem sabe ainda começamos a construir uma amizade. Um abraço. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 02:54, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Sei que a vida de tradutor pode às vezes ser dura: sou padrinho de uma sobrinha que vive em França e tem esta profissão; sendo muito procurada, não é raro ela chegar mesmo ao limite. Eu próprio, décadas atrás, fiz algumas vezes de intérprete simultâneo, e ficava exausto ao fim de conferências de um ou dois dias. Quanto à sua ideia de conversarmos por Skype, peço a sua compreensão: por várias razões (que considero como boas...) decidi manter o anonimato nas minhas andanças pelas wikipédias (para além da portuguesa e da inglesa, também a francesa, a alemã e a espanhola), e algumas experiências confirmaram que esta decisão foi acertada. Sei, e naturalmente respeito, que a sua opção foi diferente (até vi um vídeo consigo no youtube!), mas continuo convencido de que devo manter a minha. Muito espero que não leve isto a mal, e que vamos ter mais conversas aqui. Abraço Aflis (talk) 11:21, 16 May 2015 (UTC)

Caro Aflis. Desculpe o descuido, nem pensei no anonimato. Esquecimento total! Já li a sua mensagem há umas horas, entretanto veio-me a ideia que se quisesse podia até criar um segundo perfil no Skype e depois era só não ligar a comera. Tenho cá uma vaga ideia que se deve parecer com os meus tios de antigamente, as primeiras gerações mistas do sul. Mas com toda toda a certeza, respeito a sua decisão. Tinha até falado há uns tempos com uns wikipedistas por aí para combinar um almoço quando eu por aí passasse e estava ontem a pensar em convidá-lo. Mas tudo bem, fica para a próxima vida. Mas agora estou super curioso sobre esse vídeo no Youtube, saberia me dizer como encontrá-lo? Quanto aos livros do meu tio, não falo muito sobre isso, pois aquilo para ele é um hobby, ele está agora com uns 90 anos, sem recursos, e é uma pura dedicação, mas não tenho bem a certeza que passaria o crivo da 'cientificidade'. Por isso, não queria falar deles para um dia não me jogarem na casa que eu questiono esta ou aquela fonte ou este ou aquele autor e ao mesmo tempo falo os livros do meu tio. Se não fosse meu tio, com certeza usaria, tem muita coisa boa que serve para no mínimo saber que isto ou aquilo ocorreu e depois confirmar. Aqui estão. Vários outros autores inclusive da Universidade de Coimbra que vieram depois dele usam e citam as suas obras, tem muita crítica positiva, inclusive uma toca mesmo nesse aspecto de ser uma coisa 'caseira', mas ao mesmo tempo valiosa. Posso dizer que foi discípulo do Padre Estermann e mais tarde através deste conheceu muita gente do mesmo leque. Tinha acesso a muita gente, sendo um lado da família descendentes da Rainha Ginga. Mas, claro, tire as suas próprias conclusões. Um abraço,

Obrigado pela sua compreensão quanto ao meu anonimato nas wikipédias. e também pelas suas indicações & explicações a respeito dos livros do seu tio. Entendo perfeitamente a sua atitude em relação a estes últimos e vou naturalmente respeitá-la. Quanto à minha idade, a sua intuição acertou: a julgar pelo tal vídeo, sou mesmo de uma geração mais velha do que a sua. Encontrei aliás este vídeo de maneira simples e banal - pus o seu nome no Google e, logo a seguir às suas presenças na wikipédia, a referência ao vídeo lá apareceu: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ne6FCvfrLJI , intitulado "De conversa com o Rui Gabriel por Olivier Carreia". Abraço Aflis (talk) 09:58, 17 May 2015 (UTC) PS: Esqueci-me de dizer que nãp conhecia os livros do seu tio, mas pelas informações que encontrei num website indicado pelo Google, não tenho dúvida de que devem conter muitos elementos úteis para a historiografia "científica". Onde é que se os pode adquirir?

Olá. Que alívio, não sou eu no Youtube - ha ha ha ha! Nunca me identifico sem o sobrenome, sempre "Rui Correia". Procurei, mas nao encontro no blogue do meu tio os contactos que ele usa vender os livros. Poderia claro passar os contactos que eu uso para o contactar, mas podem ser apenas para família e amigos. Mas já lhe escrevi e depois aviso. Entretanto, encontrei este anuncio no OLX. Aquele abraço. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 19:56, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok, então existe outra pessoa com o mesmo nome! - Aproveito para agradecer a formatação que fez na wikipédia em alemão: eu não sou nada bom nestas coisas técnicas, e no caso desisti depois de várias tentativas...Vi que naquela WP foi contactado por Cruks que ofereceu apoio; entretanto a conta dele foi bloqueada indefinidamente, também na WP em português. - Quanto aos livros do seu tio, só agora dei naquele website (acima mencionado) que ele dá lá as coordenadas dele para se poder fazer encomendas directamente a ele. Abraço Aflis (talk) 20:34, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Quando falou do seu anonimato citou outras Wikipédias e lembrei-me que mencionou a alemã. Como alemão não é geralmente uma língua que os lusófonos dominam, fiquei curioso e fui dar uma olhada. Ich hab mehr als 10 Jahre in Namibia geblieben und hab' auch fünf Jahre Deutsch auf der Schule gestudiert. Grüße Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 22:14, 17 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok, assunto esclarecido! A maior parte da minha vida passou-se entre Portugal, Alemanha e Brasil. Com estadias de duração muito variável em cerca de 20 países africanos (com grande destaque para Angola, é claro) e mais de uma dúzia na América Latina de língua espanhola. Estive três vezes na Namíbia, sempre por pouco tempo. Sai de lá com sentimentos contraditórios. Por um lado, agradou-me, naturalmente, o funcionamento organizado e "civilizado". Por outro lado, não posso com o racismo, aberto e/ou velado, de grande parte dos brancos, provavelmente a maioria! Abraço Aflis (talk) 09:32, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Isso de racismo é um bicho esquisito e ainda mais por esse aspecto do aberto/ velado. O meu pai levantamentos da vegetação investigação para melhorar os pastos no sul de Angola, tinha vários ensaios em nome dos institutos de investigação, IIAA (agronomia), IICA (ciências) e IIVA (veterinária) e ia e vinha do Lubango, e conhecia gente pelo caminho onde parava de vez em quando. Um dia foi acompanhado pelo chefe dele, Azancot de Menezes que provavelmente deve conhecer. Parou num dos lugares habituais e ao entrarem, a portuguesa dona do estabelecimento informou que "o preto pode dar a volta e ir tomar a cerveja lá atrás 'a janela. Na Namíbia quando saímos em 74 levávamos connosco um tio negro do meu pai que vivia connosco no Lubango. Ao atravessar a fronteira, o soldado sul-africano que veio fazer o controlo chamou o meu pai 'a parte para os colegas não ouvirem. Depois deu ordens em voz alta para que voltasse para o lado de Angola. Mas a história era outra. quando chamou o meu pai de lado explicou-lhe que íamos ter muitos problemas até chegar ao Oshakati e que era melhor voltar para Angola e tornar a entrar minutos antes da fronteira fechar, já meio escuro, para ele nos deixar passar e quando por certo haveria menos pontos de controlo. Isso falando dos tempos antigos. Dos tempos de hoje, o que mais me chamou a atenção é que os mais racistas e mais liberais são os alemães, depois os afrikaners e ingleses no centro. O mesmo ocorreu aqui na África o Sul, onde grande parte do partido liberal/ de esquerda/ contra o apartheid era composto por uma maioria Afrikaner, ao passo que a maioria dos ingleses apoiavam a versão inglesa do partido nacionalista do afrikaners. Por favor nao se sinta obrigado a continuar esta conversa, a qualquer altura é só dizer que podemos encerrar. Não lhe quero tomar o seu tempo. Uma boa semana. Aquele abraço, estamos junto meu kota. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 10:48, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Ok, o racismo é mesmo um assunto muito complicado (e daí talvez muito simples...), sobre o qual há bastante pesquisa e publicação, de modo que seria até atrevido encetar aqui uma discussão. Abraço Aflis (talk) 11:51, 18 May 2015 (UTC)

Ndandulalibingi[edit]

Hi Aflis. Just to inform you that I have asked for admin intervention to resolve the impasse. You can see the details here. Regards, Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 11:20, 23 May 2015 (UTC)

Culture of the Mbunda people[edit]

Olá, Aflis. Queira dar uma espreitada neste esboço que comecei hoje. Um abraço, Kota. Rui ''Gabriel'' Correia (talk) 21:23, 25 May 2015 (UTC)

Fiz lá alguns (para já poucos) comentários! Aflis (talk) 10:10, 26 May 2015 (UTC)

June 2015[edit]

Information icon Please do not remove maintenance templates from pages on Wikipedia, as you did to Politics of Angola, without resolving the problem that the template refers to, or giving a valid reason for the removal in the edit summary. Your removal of this template does not appear constructive, and has been reverted.

In particular, your edit reason for this revert didn't make much sense, especially given that Salazar is not an article. {{dn}} is used to mark links to disambiguation pages that are actually meant to go to articles (whether or not the articles in question have actually been created yet).

What you should do here is either find an appropriate article to point the link at, or failing that at least make up a good name for such an article to have and make it a redlink to that name.

(Sorry if the beginning of this message sounds cranky; I would have used {{uw-tdel1}} instead of {{uw-tdel2}} if it didn't sound so condescending ...) SamB (talk) 19:28, 10 June 2015 (UTC)

Even after several years of contributions, I am still not very good as far as technical questions are concerned, and must confess I simply don't understand most of what you are explaining above. Example: what is a "template message"???? - As for the Salazar article, is does exist, but under the title "António de Oliveira Salazar". Thus what I now did (before reading your comments above) is returning to my first edit, using the correct title of the article. I sincerely hope you will find this slution acceptable. Aflis (talk) 22:45, 10 June 2015 (UTC)