Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Three Kingdoms/Archive 3

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problem article

A poorly referenced and unlinked article has been written on Fake stories in Three Kingdoms novel devoted to the differences between the history and the novel. This would seem something obviously important, but it is undoubtedly also covered elsewhere. I stopped it from speedy deletion, but I doubt it can stand as written, and I leave it up to the experts here what to do with it. DGG (talk) 09:13, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

experts? <looks around> Ling.Nut (talk) 09:41, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Oh dear *sobs*. Many of these tales are scattered around in the biographical articles or the battle articles, and some of them have their own articles (like Oath of the Peach Garden). It would make sense to have a place to centralize these tales, but I don't think anything more than a list would be coherent/encyclopedic. _dk (talk) 09:51, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be good to have an article that sums up all the false and exaggerated information that appears in RoTK, but this article is, to be polite, rather poor. Besides, one of our goals is to seperate the factual information from the fictional information with each article. This article could then be perceived as redundant. Gamer Junkie 10:18, 30 November 2007 (UTC)

Well, check the article. I've made some modifications. Armando.O^{talk • Ev} 04:24, 17 December 2007 (UTC)

Article request

I added this article request. I think it would be an interesting topic.

• Mengchong - (from Imperial Chinese Navy: leather-covered assault warship - ships of the Three Kingdons period)

Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 18:09, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

WikiProject Former countries (from Domino theory)

Hello All:

This is Ling.Nut; I'm cross-posting this message that Domino theory placed on my talk page:

---

Re: Three Kingdoms

After looking at your user page I became aware of the Three Kingdoms project. I did not find it as I was looking for similar projects when I set up the task force for Chinese historical states. The task force was created to coordinate the questions regarding Chinese states within the WikiProject Former countries and one of the reasons it came about was the current use of the Former Countries infobox in Chinese dynasty articles.

WikiProject Former countries would like to cooperate as much as possible with other WikiProjects, and I think the two projects could be helpful to one another. There is ongoing work to to separate articles that cover royal and princely houses, especially within the Holy Roman Empire, from the states that they ruled over. The same kind of separation also needs to be achieved in other parts of the world, like the Indian subcontinent and China.

I haven't been able to work much with these articles myself, but this might be something that the members of the Three Kingdoms project would respond to. I'm adding your project to the collaboration list at the task force. Feel free to contribute or give your input on the take. Cheers, -- Domino theory 17:29, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

This...sounds like a bad idea. _dk 07:55, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. In fact now that it's been brought up that Chinese dynasties have been using the former countries infobox, I'm thinking of creating an infobox specifically for Chinese Dynasties. There are certainly enough dynasties that it would be useful. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 08:03, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Argh, I can't handle another WikiProject! If somebody else wishes to assist, it's always good to help out our fellow editors. Unfortunately, I won't be there any time soon. Gamer Junkie 08:23, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi, everyone! Former countries in Chinese history is has been supported by WikiProject Former countries for a long time. The current situation is that the infobox intended for historic states or countries has been applied to a number of dynasties that ruled in China. Obviously a dynasty is an important component of a state, but to say that the state and the dynasty is one and the same is to confuse two different concepts. Each of them has properties that can not be found in the other, including the fact that they both have the capacity to survive the demise of the other. A dynasty can rule over more than one state, and a state can fall under the control of a new dynasty. This doesn't mean that the control of a state or empire under one particular dynasty shouldn't be worthy of a separate article, it's just that in such a case the article that carries the infobox should be about the state and not the dynastic ruling house. Anyone is interested in improving the work on historical states and empires from a broader perspective is also welcome to join up. -- Domino theory 09:51, 3 December 2007 (UTC)

For Chinese purposes, that will be unnecessary. The Han state, for example, falls exactly at the moment the Han Dynasty falls, and the Tang state falls when the Tang Dynasty falls, and so on. What doesn't fall though, is places like China, Tibet, Mongolia, etc. But we already have articles on those "states". I can see why we want things like Empire of China to convey the history of the state of China, but that is already covered in History in China....I would rather follow HongQiGong's idea of making infoboxes for Chinese dynasties instead. Anyways, this is too wide a topic for us to discuss, you might want to bring this up at WikiProject China 11:02, 3 December 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Deadkid dk (talk • contribs)

Your mission, should you choose to accept it...!

Today is the first time I've ever run across this: Wikipedia:Featured topics. This is cool. I am lusting after this status for our WikiProject... anyone else? Ling.Nut (talk) 01:17, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

...It might take years. _dk (talk) 01:25, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh, don't be so grumpy! :) Ling.Nut (talk) 01:27, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

He's right. If it were up to me alone, it'd take decades, but it's worth a try. Then again, if we concentrate on bringing single articles up to FA standard, we'd get FT by default. We should simply run with our current game plan. By the way, where did our army of WP:3K members disappear to? Gamer Junkie 05:06, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Oh yeah I ran into this a few weeks ago and have a few topics in mind that I would love to do (unrelated to Three Kingdoms). I think there's definitely potential for a Three Kindgoms featured topics. Just off the top of my head, you can do one on the Five Tiger Generals. Including Five Tiger Generals, which will act as the lead article, that's six articles. Of those six articles, two will need to be FA, and the rest must be GA. Hong Qi Gong (Talk - Contribs) 06:26, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Those articles were up for deletion for lack of notability or something just a couple of months back. Might be hard getting them FA'd. We should stick to historically significant articles. Gamer Junkie 06:43, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

The only bad thing I see on some articles is the lack of references. And what about the Guan Yu article? Wasn't it gonna to be the next collaboration??? Armando.O^{talk · Ev · 3K} 20:13, 3 January 2008 (UTC)

I think each of us are tied up in one real life commitment or another... _dk (talk) 12:19, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Apart from the Dynasty Warriors referencing, I've been hesitant to add to or remove anything further from the Guan Yu article. Not only is it already massive, but I'm unfamiliar with all the myth/legend/reverence/godliness surrounding his character in Asia; and I know it's strong. I don't want to change anything unless I'm completely sure of what I'm doing. Aside from that, my job is List of Dynasty Warriors characters. I will reference it further when I have a few hours to pick a PlayStation controller and jot down every quote I can muster. I'm currently mostly preoccupied with fighting AfD nominations against video game articles. There's a number of haughty bureaucrats who believe they have the right to tell all of Wikipedia what's good for us and what we want to read about. It's frustrating me that you can't have a commonsense conversation with these imbeciles, as they seem to know little more than how to type snippets of policy and obscure, semi-official, Deletionist guidelines and throw them at you. Sad thing is, this puts them in the right. Gamer Junkie ^{T / C} 12:57, 11 January 2008 (UTC)

Notability

Let's ask this question among ourselves before people send our articles to AfD....Where should the notability bar be set for inclusion in Wikipedia? Are all people mentioned in historical texts notable by default? Are minor fictional characters notable because they were in the novel? Diaochan and Zhou Cang are notable, no doubt, but what about the poor fellows who only serve as fodder? (ie. Han Fu (fictional), Fang Yue, etc.) _dk (talk) 08:03, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

I always ask myself, WWJKD? [What would Jim Kirk do?]. My answer is: if they're wearing red shirts, send 'em out to the hostile alien planet, and screw 'em if they die there. We don't have to fight for every single character. Ling.Nut (talk) 08:29, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

It's important information from one of the most famous and culturally influential periods in Chinese history. Even the fictional characters are from one of the most historically significant and famous novels ever written. I think it falls well within safe boundaries. It's not as though we'll be concentrating our efforts on very minor historical figures, not for a long time anyway. Gamer Junkie 08:40, 7 December 2007 (UTC)

Banner!

I've created this banner of the WikiProject for the Wikipedia ads.

Wikipedia ads	file info – #112

Any comments?? Do you think something should be added?? Armando.O^{talk · Ev · 3K} 18:07, 18 December 2007 (UTC)

I'm on wiki-sabbatical. But I think you did a nice job. :-) I think the text could be a bit catchier... Good luck! Ling.Nut (talk) 02:55, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I like it. I generally prefer a little colour, but since you made it, I'll leave that for you to decide. Gamer Junkie 03:45, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

No no! Tell me. What colors?? And what else I should add? Armando.O^{talk · Ev · 3K} 16:38, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Nothing else needs to be added. As far as colours go, the Chinese people are a culturally colourful bunch. They love bright, rich and extravagant colours. Perhaps this should be reflected in our banner? Something in a green, red or gold? Gamer Junkie 22:47, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

Nah, this is good. Extravagance only kicked in around Ming Dynasty._dk (talk) 01:34, 22 December 2007 (UTC)

I personally like it. The only thing that strikes me is that Wu is generally listed last for some reason, but here they are in the middel. Its no big deal, just something i noticed. --EveryDayJoe45 (talk) 00:27, 1 January 2008 (UTC)

Templates, redux

A few months before I suggested a split of the gigantic {{People of the Three Kingdoms}} template into four. I've recently completed the prototypes and here they are:

As you can see, yes, one template is much bigger than the other three, but it's much smaller than the one we have now. Evaluate them, question my choices, scream at me.....do whatever, discuss. _dk (talk) 07:09, 16 January 2008 (UTC)

If there are no problems I will make the switch. _dk (talk) 08:24, 19 January 2008 (UTC)

I think that's an awesome idea. But there are no comments, so I think you just should do it. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Armando12 (talk • contribs) 23:04, 23 January 2008 (UTC)

I have a small problem: the templates won't collapse properly when the parameter state=collapsed is used. (See for example in Sima Yan). Would someone knowledgeable in wikicode-fu check it out? _dk (talk) 01:58, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Strange, it seems to work for {{People of the end of Han Dynasty}} (as seen on Emperor Ling of Han) but not {{People of Cao Wei}} (eg. Sima Yan). _dk (talk) 03:37, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Nevermind, I think I got it =) _dk (talk) 04:23, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Now that the four templates are in place and {{People of the Three Kingdoms}} phased out, perhaps we can nominate it for deletion now? _dk (talk) 04:33, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Sounds like a plan to me. Ling.Nut (talk) 07:31, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

It's a wild Ling Nut on the loose and he's not working on his dissertation! No way, that's impossible! _dk (talk) 11:32, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Dude, I'll pay you two hundred bucks to write this thing for me. It is a demon straight from Satan's lowest hell. Ling.Nut (talk) 12:49, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

Glad to oblige, I get two hundred dollars for ruining someone's life! What fun! :D _dk (talk) 22:38, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

(undent). Yeah. All my friends who were ahead of me in the PhD program pissed and moaned and pissed and moaned about how terrible writing a dissertation is... all of them, even the really hard-working ones! But on the other hand, on the day when it was all done and they got their PhD, all of them looked like they'd just won the lottery, had a baby and inherited a million dollars all at the same time... Ling.Nut (talk) 05:08, 28 January 2008 (UTC)

TfD nomination of Template:People of the Three Kingdoms

Template:People of the Three Kingdoms has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. — _dk (talk) 22:35, 27 January 2008 (UTC)

AFDs

Two Three Kingdoms related articles, DW Three Kingdoms and The Greatest of Heroes, are being nominated for deletion. Please come comment in Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/DW Three Kingdoms, thank you. _dk (talk) 23:18, 26 January 2008 (UTC)

Sources

Has anyone considered extracting biographies from Rafe de Crespigny: A biographical dictionary of Later Han to the Three Kingdoms, Leiden 2007, ISBN 90-04-15605-4 ? Sarazyn • 丁人LK • DE 09:58, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

I currently have a copy of the book from my university's library, and I think Ling.Nut has it as well. Extracting word for word would lead to copyright violations, and not everyone in the dictionary is notable....So all I've been doing so far is using the book as an aid to improve existing articles. _dk (talk) 11:18, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Of course! Sarazyn • 丁人LK • DE 15:06, 15 February 2008 (UTC)

Thats actually pretty cool. They have biographies at Kongming the website too, but they are a little to extensive most of the time. --EveryDayJoe45 (talk) 19:33, 17 February 2008 (UTC)

I don't know if Kongming.net is a reliable source for an encyclopedia. Sarazyn • 丁人LK • DE 15:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

What do you think of a whitelist for people included in Crespigny's work? Sarazyn • 丁人LK • DE 15:11, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

I'm refering to WP:BIO for that, and I guess each person's notability should be examined case by case... _dk (talk) 15:56, 7 March 2008 (UTC)

Curious; I wouldn't have suspected any restrictions at all, since subjects like Tsst seem to be relevant. en.wp, OMG ;) Sarazyn • 丁人LK • DE 08:46, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

The English Wikipedia works in mysterious ways. (Funny, I just watched that episode like yesterday =D) _dk (talk) 09:04, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Me too LOL Sarazyn • 丁人LK • DE 12:51, 10 March 2008 (UTC)

Guidelines revision

I have just finished revising our guidelines so that they are more relevant with our scope and encourages consistency among our articles. I urge everyone to read it over and give some feedback. Thanks. _dk (talk) 00:17, 9 March 2008 (UTC)

Changes to the WP:1.0 assessment scheme

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Articles flagged for cleanup

Currently, 794 articles are assigned to this project, of which 344, or 43.3%, are flagged for cleanup of some sort. (Data as of 14 July 2008.) Are you interested in finding out more? I am offering to generate cleanup to-do lists on a project or work group level. See User:B. Wolterding/Cleanup listings for details. Subscribing is easy - just add a template to your project page. If you want to respond to this canned message, please do so at my user talk page. --B. Wolterding (talk) 16:23, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

Template:Three Kingdoms warning

Template:Three Kingdoms warning has been nominated for deletion WP:TFD 70.51.8.103 (talk) 06:18, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't even understand what that is... --EveryDayJoe45 (talk) 19:20, 26 July 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia 0.7 articles have been selected for Three Kingdoms

Wikipedia 0.7 is a collection of English Wikipedia articles due to be released on DVD, and available for free download, later this year. The Wikipedia:Version 1.0 Editorial Team has made an automated selection of articles for Version 0.7.

We would like to ask you to review the articles selected from this project. These were chosen from the articles with this project's talk page tag, based on the rated importance and quality. If there are any specific articles that should be removed, please let us know at Wikipedia talk:Version 0.7. You can also nominate additional articles for release, following the procedure at Wikipedia:Release Version Nominations.

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Battle of Red Ciffs

I saw the Battle of red Cliffs as the selected article for today... Good job guys. I figure its about time I get myself straight and start helping this project that I sorta relinquished from slowly but surely. So I'm back, I'm back and I'm going to start helping as best I can once again. --EveryDayJoe45 (talk) 16:59, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

You missed the hordes of vandals. :-) Ling.Nut ^{(talk—WP:3IAR)} 13:56, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

Haha well I'm officially going back to my roots with this project again. --EveryDayJoe45 (talk) 15:27, 6 January 2009 (UTC)

History of the Han Dynasty

Since it mentions prominent figures of the Three Kingdoms era, I'd like some of you guys to take a look at History of the Han Dynasty. Thanks.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 02:37, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

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Luo GuanZhong (Translation by Moss Roberts), Three Kingdoms: A Historical Novel (Los Angeles, Unabridged Part 1 & 2, 1st ed, 2001)

On several of the Three Kingdoms project articles the Three Kingdoms Historical Novel is referred to as fiction. It is important to point out it is not totally fiction. It has been suggested that it is approximately 30% fiction 70% based on History. Future Three Kingdoms articles should make this distinction for the validity of the overall project. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.163.181.124 (talk) 22:17, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Much as we don't use Shakespearean works to write about Roman history we don't use the novel to write about the Three Kingdoms' history, however much based on history they are. That's all they are — fiction based on history. _dk (talk) 07:32, 16 July 2009 (UTC)