User talk:Carcharoth

This is a Wikipedia user talk page. For the fictional wolf of the same name, see Carcharoth.

Archives

---

• July 2005
• September 2005
• February - March 2006
• April - May 2006
• June - July 2006
• August - September 2006
• October - November 2006
• December 2006 - January 2007
• February - March 2007
• April - May 2007
• June - July 2007
• August - September 2007
• October - November 2007
• December 2007 - January 2008
• February - March 2008
• April - May 2008
• June - July 2008
• August - September 2008
• October - November 2008
• December 2008 - January 2009
• February 2009 - March 2009

Meetup in Cambridge

Wikipedia:Meetup/Cambridge 2 - we're scheduling this for 28 February, pm. Charles Matthews (talk) 11:52, 3 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Will look. Carcharoth (talk) 02:37, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

In case...

I very much respect and appreciate the thoughtful and insightful comments you have made on all pages, and wanted you to know my comments were not critical of you in anyway, just in case they sounded like that...(olive (talk) 02:36, 5 February 2009 (UTC))

Not at all. I'm always happy to talk at proposed decision talk pages. Doesn't always change anything, but talking is good. Carcharoth (talk) 02:37, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

WP:RINGS

The merging discussion has expanded a bit. Related: can we use this drawing of Sauron by Tolkien, found here, under fair use? One possible problem with the image is that it's a scan from a book. Uthanc (talk) Uthanc (talk) 19:41, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Will look. Hope I'm not too late... Carcharoth (talk) 15:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Request to copyedit Honolulu High-Capacity Transit Corridor Project

If you have the time, would you be willing to help copyedit this article? It has a request for peer review that has been open for a couple weeks now, and the only feedback received was that the article needs copyediting before it can become an FA candidate. Thanks, Musashi1600 (talk) 20:39, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, didn't find time to get to this one. Carcharoth (talk) 15:01, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

ArbCom Principles

Hello, I've recently been doing some work with the Mediation Cabal, and, as I was researching relevant material to the case, I came across several ArbCom findings of principle that applied. Can those be considered as Wikipedia policy, guidelines, interpretations of policy and guidelines, or simply as advice? Thanks, ErikTheBikeMan (talk) 16:53, 13 February 2009 (UTC)

Sorry for letting this one slide. You would be better off asking this at WT:ARBCOM. Carcharoth (talk) 14:19, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Evolution Sunday

Yeah, I'd never heard of it before until I started exploring from the other articles in the "Darwin celebrations" cat you just created, and found it linked in the See also section of Darwin Day. Re:DYK, thanks!--ragesoss (talk) 23:59, 14 February 2009 (UTC)

Cool. And congrats on the Signpost editor role! Carcharoth (talk) 14:19, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

My blog post

Thanks for the heads-up, and for the interesting discussion. For the record, I don't publish deleted pages on a regular basis but this case I thought it was useful to add some clarity to the situation, which not many other writers (and I suspect, no journalists) could provide. Incidentally, are article histories covered under GFDL or not? One worry I had was that of copyright but I figured as the copy was under GFDL so would the screenshots. Qwghlm (talk) 18:33, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Not a clue about GFDL and article histories. If you find out, let me know! Carcharoth (talk) 18:36, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

If you want to get technical about the GFDL, under "1. APPLICABILITY AND DEFINITIONS", paragraph 1: This License applies to any manual or other work...that contains a notice - everything on this site contains such a notice; The "Document", below, refers to any such manual or work... - so when we see "Document" we mean a GFDL-licensed work; A "Secondary Section" is a named appendix or a front-matter section of the Document that deals exclusively with the relationship of the publishers or authors of the Document to the Document's overall subject (or to related matters) and contains nothing that could fall directly within that overall subject. - so anything associated with the article/page that is not the article/page itself is a Secondary Section; A section "Entitled XYZ" means a named subunit of the Document whose title...[is] "History" - so when you click on the history tab, you are moving to a Secondary Section (sub-unit) of the Document; and under "4. MODIFICATIONS", section "I", Preserve the section Entitled "History"...and add to it an item.

Now the MediaWiki implementation of GFDL smears around some of these definitions but it does comply with all of them. So, short answer, yes, article history is licensed under the GFDL, it can be freely republished with the express provision that it is properly attributed as to the source. You can modify the document as you wish (including removing everything but the Secondary Section entitled History, so long as you indicate such in the History and indicate on the Title Page a distinct title) and redistribute it as you wish, so long as you always include the GFDL license, attribute the source and provide the History.

To clarify, the History you have to provide is on the lines of "History section of English Wikipedia document "<article>" (<article link>) obtained from <history link>" and you need to put that at the top of the history section; and your Title page will be "Article history of <article>"; and you have to make clear that you are re-licensing under GFDL.

And for another, much better opinion, User:Moonriddengirl is the GFDL master mariner that I know of. Hope this helps! Franamax (talk) 22:44, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Followup after looking beyond the straight question of whether history is GFDL-licensed: yes, I believe it is - however the position of admin carries with it specific responsibilities and obligations so especially in the case of republishing deleted information, you could well lose the position regardless of the precise licensing details. That's the difference between a right and a privilege. Franamax (talk) 22:55, 16 February 2009 (UTC)

Very helpful, if a bit overwhelming. Thanks! Carcharoth (talk) 01:06, 17 February 2009 (UTC)

Serious accusation from Robert Young

Hello Carcharoth, I would like to bring up a very serious issue that is quite important to me. In a recent edit, Mr. Young accused me of recruiting a meatpuppet on Wikipedia. I went to his talk page and insisted that he either retract the accusation or bring it to the proper forum. And I do mean insisted, not asked, because I take any statement that impugns my character or conduct, be it in real life or on Wikipedia very seriously. This is not a light accusation for me. He has thus far refused to do either, so I have no choice but to attempt to resolve this issue myself. I want to speak with you, as his mentor, first, however, to see if perhaps you could help dissolve this situation before it flares up anymore. If there is not a retraction, I have no choice but to pursue the accusation to prove my innocence. Cheers, CP 18:38, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Comment: I did not accuse CP of recruiting a meatpuppet...I suggested that a new editor appeared to be a single-issue meatpuppet. Nothing in Wikipolicy says that a meatpuppet must be recruited. Someone could be my friend and I tell them about Issue X on Wikipedia and then they jump on to make an edit without my explicit knowledge that they did so. Therefore, CP's accusations are incorrect. Since he made incorrect accusations against me, he should apologize. Further, the assertion that he "insist" shows a structural character flaw with CP. Wikipedia is not a democracy, but neither it is a dictatorship. I was within my rights, and acting appropriately, to point out potential violations of Wiki policy. To suggest that it is a violation to give an admonishing word is ridiculous. To try to use the either/or fallacy is, again, not appropriate. One does not bring the "accusation" to the next level if the problem from the perpetrator does not continue. Indeed, Meatpuppet X discontinued the behavior I admonished him/her about.Ryoung122 22:37, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. Hope things got sorted out. If there are still problems, let me know. Carcharoth (talk) 14:18, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

There are still problems but, really, what's the point? Since he's been back he's:

1. Unilaterally recreated Sebastian Bonnet immediately after it was deleted at an AfD.

Comment: the Sebastian Bonnett article, which had originally existed for 3+ years, was inappropriately deleted with minimal input and without informing affected individuals. While my re-creation was deleted, the article was re-created again by a third party and now exists. This is a strong indication that my re-creation was correct and that those who deleted it were not.Ryoung122 22:31, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

1. Engaged in multiple personal attacks against individuals (not just my own case, see recent [1], [2], [3])

None of these were personal attacks, they were responses to others.Ryoung122 22:39, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

1. Declared that he doesn't DO citations when asked to source material. See also my discussion with him on Beatrice Farve on his talk page and [4].

Wikipedia is NOT a job. We are not required to make any edits. I don't want to waste my time doing citations, since I have more important things to worry about and it's not my strong suit, either. On top of that, I usually provide clues as to where the citations are, or post them on the talk page. By the way, Bart Versieck loved to do citations, but despite 19,000+ edits was scared away from Wikipedia by Canadian Paul. Perhaps we'd like to ask Bart what he thinks about CP.Ryoung122 22:41, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Yet nothing more than a slap on the wrist since he's been back, even despite his previous one year ban.

Another false statement. I was NOT banned. I was NOT blocked for 1 year. I was blocked "indefinitely." I chose not to attempt a comeback while working on my Master's thesis. After graduation in August 2008, I requested to return after 10 1/2 months and was accepted. So, your above statement contains TWO misstatements.Ryoung122 22:50, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Yet people like me who work hard to improve the encyclopedia and respect its policies

Jesus said "the letter of the law kills, but the spirit gives life." It is not lawful to heal on the Sabbath. You have been overly concerned with policy (even when the policy is not set in stone and has been modified/changed radically over time). Your personal obsession with the Ruby Muhammad article is just one demonstration of where you have made Wikipedia a lesser, not greater, place. Wikipedia should be educational and encyclopedic. Significant evidence is available that Ruby Muhammad was born in 1907, not 1897. Her own family's website mentioned that as well as her own family's family tree on www.rootsweb.com, which listed her as born in 1906. I have simply held back from putting anything on the GRG website just to make a point. When the time is right, this case is going to be corrected.Ryoung122 22:48, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

get little in return except having their contributions insulted, their character attacked and now the above accusation (I'm not accusing Ryoung of all of the above, just generalizing my collective experience as of late). A couple of barnstars doesn't balance that out. It's very disheartening to do a lot of hard work, then see someone get away with comments like "I don't DO citations", but I don't think that much is going to come out of complaining about it. Cheers, CP 20:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Well, my view is that there is always room for improvement (and I include myself in that). The most difficult thing about Wikipedia is working with others. Getting the hang of that can be tricky. It took me a long time to realise how vital citations are, though when asked to provide them, it really is, as you say, important to try and do so. Recreation of an article can be an attempt to improve it. In the end, this article got deleted again and someone else re-recreated it, and it stuck this time. Carcharoth (talk) 22:22, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Speaking of getting along with others, the issues raised on February 21 died down, and no one continued to raise them except ONE person...CP. Whether or not I have issues, CP has his own issues which he refuses to consider. In fact, I was (UNFAIRLY) not even informed that this discussion was taking place here.Ryoung122 23:38, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

This is exactly what I mean; I just pointed out a large series of serious problems and, as his mentor, a condition of him coming back after a year of being blocked for everything under the sun, you didn't even bother to bring these concerns up with him. How many chances does he get? It doesn't look to me like he's learning at all: [5], [6], [7].

In all these cases, I chose to take on an issue that was controversial. "Religion" and faith/mythology, as well as LGBT issues, are ones that are, by nature, controversial. In the above examples, a single-issue editor who admitted to "MESSING WITH MY MIND" had created an identity ("localchurch") that was identical to the religious group he has been in dispute with for 20+ years. He then proceeds to interject controversial material into the article. If I am not the best person for getting along with others, I can CLEARLY identify a problem when something is wrong. As noted earlier, the Sebastian Bonnett article had existed for 3 years and was nominated for deletion by someone who had made anti-gay comments. It was clear that the push for deletion was a bad-faith edit. In the case of the local church article, the single-issue editor clearly admitted to making bad-faith edits and to have had a personal dispute/issue with the group for 20+ years, and EVEN was requesting that editors such as HopeChrist (clearly a local church member) drop out. WIKIPEDIA IS NOT THE PLACE FOR APOLOGISM, PROSELYTYZING, RECRUITING, OR BASHING RELIGIOUS FAITHS. If CP had bothered to get beyond his personal dislike of me and looked at the actual situation (or, better yet, referred it to a third-party editor), then it would be clear that I was in the right, not the wrong. Do the ends justify the means? That is the question.Ryoung122 23:02, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

At what point are the chances he's given outweighed by the departure of an editor who has actually worked hard to improve the project and treat people with civility (and improve himself and apologize when he does not)?

Can you clarify? Are you threatening to leave again? You already did that before, and it was an issue that had nothing to do with me. In fact, you "retired" once. True or not?Ryoung122 23:04, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

What I've learned today 

What I've learned today is that you continue to be disruptive. I thought, after almost a month, you would cool off and realize that you were reading into the situation accusations that simply were not there. I must admit you do a great job presenting one side of the story.

Speaking of improving, I have made multiple, multiple attempts to improve my editing and to get along with you, and was rebuffed consistently. What you should have done is, if you thought my editing was out of line, is to refer this to a third (or fourth) party who has no history (an untainted jury) and then let them judge the relative merits, or lack therefof, of my editing. For, while you would make a great prosecutor in court, many of your arguments would fall at the hands of a great defense attorney, who would be able to point out your stacked-deck presentations. I have made more than 2,000 edits since returning, and one would expect a certain number of disagreements. Also, persons that agree rarely are going to bother with a "good job" but if you look at how many of my edits were eventually backed up as consensus, then...by the way, CP agreed with me on the Charles Lewis, Jr. article (just one example).Ryoung122 23:09, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

is that an editor who routinely ignores WP:CIVIL,

Not true, I am polite and CIVIL to those who are such. But even when my words acquire a harsher tone, I stay away from the typical profanity that has been seen by many, many other longtime, established editors, for which little was done to "rein them in."Ryoung122 23:11, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

accuses long-standing editors of reigning in meatpuppets without any evidence and declares that he won't cite the material he adds, all serious violations of Wikipedia policy, will be treated the same as an editor such as myself who has spent 4 years working hard, improving his behavior, and creating many quality articles, while also taking up the mantle of administrator to help protect policy. Actually, they're probably even being treated better, since if I did any of the stuff that I just mentioned, I'd meet harsh consequences (and rightly so). And all this despite the fact that the main condition of his return was supposed to be an improvement in his behavior. I wasn't asking for him to be reblocked; but even a note left on his talk page discussing these issues would have been a nice gesture. Cheers, CP 16:21, 16 March 2009 (UTC)

This does need dealing with. Sorry I didn't make things clearer before. Will follow up on this later tonight. Carcharoth (talk) 00:28, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

OK, I'm going to e-mail Robert (and point him here) and leave a note on his talk page. I will also point him to WP:ADOPT, as even if I was never formally his mentor, I clearly don't have time to do that role. I hope this will help address your concerns. Apologies for not dealing with it sooner. Carcharoth (talk) 03:01, 18 March 2009 (UTC)

Please take this somewhere else

Robert, the above is a mess now that you have inserted your comments. Please, don't feel you have to respond to everything in great detail (that was a problem before) and please don't do so here. My talk page is not a place for you and CP to argue (CP, that applies to you too). I wish I did have time to sort things out here, but I don't. I'm going to have to politely ask you both to take this somewhere else. Carcharoth (talk) 01:56, 19 March 2009 (UTC)

Your question on the mailing list

The reason Robert Stuart, Duke of Kintyre has an article and his sister Mary doesn't is almost certainly that he was created a peer and, for a month or so, enjoyed the privilege of peerage, as distinct from his sister, who was only a royal princess. Choess (talk) 02:17, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That makes some kind of sense, though I'm still not convinced. Carcharoth (talk) 14:16, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Peer review

Please help me here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Peer_review/Syriac_Orthodox_Church/archive1 ܠܝܓܘ Liju ലിജു לג"ו (talk) 07:05, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Apologies for not finding the time to review this. Hope others managed to get to it. Carcharoth (talk) 14:20, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Fringe science

Please make sure the Committee checks my comment on the proposed decision talk page before closing the case. Sanctions against SA are just barely passing. It would be a shame for them not to take my view into account. Jehochman ^Talk 09:17, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for the note. This did get addressed I think, though I'm not totally satisified with the results. Carcharoth (talk) 14:17, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

I found them a mixed bag. There are some systemic issues that the community hasn't faced yet. In any case, I'm here because you wrote this in the current RfAr/Clarification re ScienceApologist's topic ban: Administrators should still use their judgment though - correction of typos, for example, can be ignored, and administrators should be able to judge when the line is crossed between helpful edits and engaging in disruption.

I agree that typo correction can be ignored, but that it also can be sanctioned. The problem with allowing such apparently harmless and helpful edits is that, if more than rare, they can complicate enforcement of a topic ban. When we block an editor, we do not allow any edits, and "violating edits" (i.e., sock edits) can be reverted on sight, without regard to content, with few exceptions.

If topic ban enforcement necessarily depends on judgment of the individual edits, there is no clear boundary. If an editor crosses into engaging in disruption, the editor could be blocked without a topic ban, so what does the ban accomplish? Ban enforcement must be simple, or bans can be disruptive. --Abd (talk) 13:14, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

extended discussion, proposal for how to allow helpful edits to content covered by topic ban

In the evidence I presented in the current RfAr/Clarification (in the collapse box there), it can be seen that SA intends to disrupt the topic ban and its enforcement. I've concluded that a topic ban should be strictly enforced when an editor shows intention to defy it; an occasional spelling correction or other harmless edit would not normally create disruption and the truly harmless edits involved in the present clarification would not have resulted in disruption if not for Hipocrite cooperating with SA by reverting them and demanding enforcement. (Some of the edits aren't clearly harmless but are provocative.) I've also pointed out that if an editor who is topic banned sees a non-controversial correction to make, the editor can do what a blocked editor may also do; if a blocked editor came in as IP and made a spelling correction, then reverted himself with "(username) blocked", which would take seconds, it would also only take seconds for any other editor to confirm and implement the correction, and I would strongly argue that such edits, if indeed harmless, would not constitute block evasion. They are really "proposed edits" that require no fuss but allow legitimate edits to be implemented quickly and easily. Indeed, when the editor comes off the block, and if there were any such lingering about that weren't fixed, the editor could quickly revert them back in. A topic banned editor, if truly interested in cooperation, which requires respect for community process, can do the same. My attention was called to the situation when SA removed an edit of mine from Talk:Cold fusion that had mentioned him, though not in a way that could reasonably be construed as an attack. He then made a spelling correction to the article. Hipocrite reverted him and reported the edit to AE. I reverted SA's Talk page removal, Hipocrite reverted me -- in part -- and I decided that if my comment was going to do any good, it had already been done, and I'd let it be. However, I then undid Hipocrite's reversion of the spelling correction, and if I noticed any other reverted spelling corrections by SA, self-reverted or not, I'd fix them, too. Cooperation with even banned editors in improving the project is to be encouraged; I've undone reversions of banned editors when I was willing to take responsibility for the edit, and attempts were made to slap me down for that, which properly failed. SA would likely push the limits with even this suggested process, I suspect, from his declared intentions; however, he should be allowed every opportunity to reform his behavior; the tragedy is that his "friends" aren't warning him. Hipocrite might be seen as having done so, except that in discussion, Hipocrite showed that his intentions were aligned with SA's. No, SA has friends among the administrative community, and these are the ones who should primarily be reigning him in, he's more likely to listen to them. If they don't, they will lose him, he will end up completely banned. The limits would be pushed by using the self-reversion process, more than occasionally, to propose a disruptive edit; a friend would then revert it back in. However, the remedy in this case would be to ignore SA's involvement, as such, except possibly when considering the life of the ban (just as if the edit had been proposed in Talk), and treat the reverting editor as fully responsible for the edit to the article. WP:MEAT is actually moot when the possible meat puppet is an established editor, not an SPA dedicated to backing up another editor.--Abd (talk) 13:14, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

Yeah, but really? Typos? If they are being corrected to gain attention, they really are best ignored. Carcharoth (talk) 16:34, 8 March 2009 (UTC)

SA and his friends are already using these edits to create disruption. I would have ignored it; in fact, I reverted back in the one I saw, after Hipocrite reverted it. The RfAr/Clarification was clearly filed as a form of cooperation between SA and Hipocrite, this is covered in the evidence I cited at the RfAr. But I'm not sure you understand my approach. Topic bans should be simple to enforce. Indeed, 'twere possible, we'd make them automatic, like blocks. If they aren't simple to enforce, they can create disruption and waste of time, exactly as we are seeing. I'm not suggesting that we should necessarily or routinely block for typo corrections, but I am saying that it should be within the discretion of any admin to do it as arbitration enforcement, and the committee can request that such blocks not be overturned without committee consultation. And then I've pointed out how it's possible that SA, if he really does want to make helpful edits, can do it in a way that wouldn't risk a block, if the interpretation I've proposed is made clear: self-reverted edits, not disruptive (i.e., not uncivil, for example, not clearly made to irritate rather than help), don't violate a topic ban, they are like Talk page edits proposing an edit, except both less distracting and more helpful (i.e, it takes much less time to undo the self-reversion than it does to read a suggestion on Talk and then go to the article and make the edit). So whenever there is a concern that an editor might be pushing the edge, the editor can be warned to self-revert if the editor truly wants to be helpful and not disruptive to arbitration enforcement. And then it would be clear. --Abd (talk) 04:30, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

I agree. The self-reversion is a good idea. I will be interested to see if SA takes up that idea or not. Carcharoth (talk) 04:37, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks and a request

Thanks for signing up at Wikipedia:Peer review/volunteers and for your work doing reviews. It is now just over a year since the last peer review was archived with no repsonse after 14 (or more) days, something we all can be proud of. There is a new Peer review user box to track the backlog (peer reviews at least 4 days old with no substantial response), which can be found here. To include it on your user or talk page, please add {{Wikipedia:Peer review/PRbox}} . Thanks again, and keep up the good work, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 03:20, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Er, not sure how many peer reviews I actually did, so this form letter might not apply to me! But thanks anyway, and I'll add the template to my user page. Carcharoth (talk) 14:15, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Cambridge meetup

The second Cambridge meetup is confirmed for this Saturday, 3pm, at CB2 on Norfolk Street: Wikipedia:Meetup/Cambridge 2. We could, for example, explore the topic of succession boxes at more adequate length. Hope to see you there. Charles Matthews (talk) 19:23, 25 February 2009 (UTC)

Hi Charles. I'm afraid I can't make this after all. Sorry about that. I was planning to be in Cambridge, but other things have come up and I need to deal with those. I will be there in the summer at some point, so I'll see if I can co-ordinate that with the next meetup. Carcharoth (talk) 11:46, 28 February 2009 (UTC)

My deletion log

Hey Carc. In case you're interested, I set up a deletion log for myself yesterday that excludes the non-old IP talk page deletions. It updates daily here. Cheers. --MZMcBride (talk) 00:37, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! Carcharoth (talk) 00:54, 26 February 2009 (UTC)

Ralph Bakshi

The filmography section had a summary, but it was deleted by a copyeditor. (Ibaranoff24 (talk) 15:53, 1 March 2009 (UTC))

Thanks for pointing this out. Am asking about whether this is the normal approach to take. Carcharoth (talk) 16:14, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for working on this peer review. Per your post on the peer review talk page, I am not sure I understand what about the PR acrhives needs to be fixed / cleaned up. Would you mind clarifying what it is that needs to be done and I will try and fix it if possible? Thanks, Ruhrfisch _><>°^° 04:42, 2 March 2009 (UTC)

I didn't realise peer reviews took place on archive pages, and I didn't realise project reviews were dealt with separately. :-) The redirect is confusing - maybe that could be sorted out, as you said elsewhere, I think. Carcharoth (talk) 04:03, 5 March 2009 (UTC)

J. R. R. Tolkien FAR

I have nominated J. R. R. Tolkien for a featured article review here. Please join the discussion on whether this article meets featured article criteria. Articles are typically reviewed for two weeks. If substantial concerns are not addressed during the review period, the article will be moved to the Featured Article Removal Candidates list for a further period, where editors may declare "Keep" or "Remove" the article's featured status. The instructions for the review process are here. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 00:52, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Replied over there. Carcharoth (talk) 04:38, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Wikitext simplicity start date -> start-date

I came across one of these edits and made the following change: [8] (note the change to use the template that calculates the age of death). I found the use of two similarly named templates rather confusing. Birth date and death date versus birth-date and death-date: the hyphen is difficult to notice and not all editors will realise what change has been made. Carcharoth (talk) 05:54, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Numeric encoding of dates is trivial for a single date but becomes needlessly intimidating as it scales to more complex tasks. This was discussed last month in depth at MOSNUM, with all editors in agreement that the new template is preferable (with one holdout who was one of the authors of the numeric oriented template). The general feeling is that templates that introduce needless complexity to wikitext defeats the primary goal of wikitext, and are not preferable to those templates that use simple syntax. Compare the two- which can a grandmother figure out[9]? Which requires no reference to the /doc page? Which allows utter freedom with formatting (note start-date/birth-date allows a right hand parameter that is the display form that can include templates eg for julian, or links). Your thoughts? My belief is that we are on the road to deprecating the numeric format in favor of the free text version that does more than the old template in a way that conforms to the goals of wikitext- that it is easy enough for anyone to become an editor. The complexity of syntax does not end with the death dates. Which of the following syntaxes are preferable?

	wikitext	display	microformat
old	{{Start date|1963|11|22|19|00||-07:00}}	19:00, November 22, 1963 (-07:00) (1963-11-22T19:00-07:00)	(1963-11-22T19:00-07:00)
new	{{start-date|November 22, 1963 1pm CST}}	November 22, 1963 1pm CST (1963-11-22UTC19)	(1963-11-22 T19Z)

-J JMesserly (talk) 17:06, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining. It does look good, but as I've just said to someone else, there is nearly always room for improvement. Even if it involves incorporating suggestions from the authors of the numeric-oriented template. There are also a ton of questions I have about user preferences and handling dates in quotes, but as I still don't fully understand microformats, I'll stop there. It's something I've been following on and off. Would you be interested in looking at Wikipedia:Metadata and Wikipedia:Biographical metadata sometime and giving your thoughts on the talk pages? It's the biographical stuff I'm really interested in, namely consolidating it and integrating it into other systems (you mentioned some Google biography thing somewhere, similar to Google Maps is it?). Carcharoth (talk) 22:27, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Oh? Integration of Wikipedia biographical information with which systems? It's hard to give input on these rather broad subjects without a concrete goal. If you install Operator on Firefox (quick notes here), you can quickly become conversant on microformats. This toolbar will allow you to preview the promised microformats aware features of future internet browsers. For example you can export information from a biography article to Yahoo Calendar. You can also export events to the various web calendar applications. Not particularly useful at this point, but you can do it. The low hanging fruit is the mapping applications. Wikipedia is destined to expose more of its information in a structured form, and the usual cost of structure is complexity of representation. {{Start date}} is a classic example of this. Another cost is restriction on how the structured data appears (eg- the disputes about how dates, coord's and cites are formatted). Oftentimes one need not come at the price of the other, but to get both involves exceptionally complex templates to make the representation as simple as possible for contributors. -J JMesserly (talk) 01:38, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

My thoughts re fringe science etcetera

See this? [10]. This is a direct result of ArbCom fiddling while rome burns. I understand where you are coming from, that no administrator should "rewrite" an ArbCom restriction, but are you going to tell me that saying that a "topic ban" means that "you can't edit articles about it, unless you're making "minor changes", or a majority of the article isn't under your topic ban." At least you spoke up, which is more then I can say for some of your colleagues (I'm not speaking of the ones who recused, or the ones already aware of this. Instead of a five minute "clarification" that says "yes, if you're topic banned, you can't edit anything about it".. we are going 3+ DAYS. No updates in about a day. Really guys, you were elected to jar ArbCom out of its slumber. Instead, it seems the new ArbCom has entered the same torpor that claimed the last one. SirFozzie (talk) 02:11, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

From my perspective, ArbCom is giving the maximum allowance to the community to decide first. Prohibiting minor edits seems rather silly to me personally, but then of course the question arises as to what are truly "minor" edits. ArbCom is perhaps wise to wait until this little tempest becomes an intractable dispute. Franamax (talk) 02:28, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Except there's an active clarification going on right now, and it seems pretty upfront, everyone who's spoken up has said "No, what SA is trying to pull is Wikilawyering". I'm just going off on the number of people who aren't speaking up. It's not as difficult as people try to make it. SirFozzie (talk) 02:33, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

Well yeah, he's pulling a fast one, on purpose. Me myself, I'd say no problem, he's fixing typos (though I thought I saw a diff where he went much further). But ArbCom has to consider broad principles as well as the individual. What wording would you propose for the clarification? Franamax (talk) 02:42, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

(after e/c, reply elsewhere) Or to put it another way, while the loss to the wiki of SA's efforts would be a crushing blow, at the same time no editor is irreplaceable and that must be the overriding principle for ArbCom to consider. Efforts would be better directed to persuading SA to modify their approach, rather than persuading the wiki to accept the way SA goes about his editing. Franamax (talk) 02:42, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

I never before tangled with SA, to my recollection, though I've become involved with Cold fusion and saw damage there. "The way he goes about his editing" can be very, very disruptive, with rank incivility, which frequently triggers uncivil response. When one couples this with new editors arriving and encountering this, and new editors often react to serious incivility with serious incivility, and are then, as "SPAs," easily blocked and banned, and there are administrators aligned with SA, there is a steady attrition of editors who might hold POVs contrary to that of SA and his supporters. While it would be wrong to "turn the article over" to fringe-POV pushers, this steady loss is also ultimately damaging to the project, and very deeply so, because of reservoirs of ill-will generated. To protect an article against serious POV-pushing, it only takes one or a few knowledgeable editors (best if it is at least two!) to make sure that the article remains within guidelines, but it is very important that consensus process is respected, and that requires that "fringe POVs," and, even more importantly, alleged "fringe POV editors" be respected and included in consensus process. My experience has long been that people with extreme views know that they are extreme, i.e., minority positions, with some rough concept of how minority they are, and they don't mind truly neutral text about this. What they do mind, and what they will sometimes become long-term vandals over, is total exclusion, as if they did not exist. To the extent that Wikipedia has clear notability and verifiability standards, to the extent that these editors are welcomed and assistance is demonstrated toward finding whatever is allowed by clear guidelines that would recognize the POV of these editors without imbalancing the article, these editors can become supporters of the article and will actually protect it against overenthusiastic assertion of their POV, because it will destabilize the consensus, which can lead to *less* recognition rather than more, it attracts editors with strong POV in the other direction, and, by the conditions asserted, they are in the majority. Organizations like Wikipedia learned long ago that group unity was fundamental, which is why such organizations, the ones that have survived long-term, will bend over backwards to try to find absolute consensus. It's not always attainable, but the goal is worthwhile, and seeking it will minimize disruption in the long run. --Abd (talk) 15:41, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I would like your opinion on what to do regarding Golden plates article.

Hello there,

I am just asking your advice as an arbitrator but not an arbitration and I do so only because I fear we are far past the point of mediation. The Golden plates article has serious issues. It was FA but as the review here[[11]] will show you. Now I know I've been hardly civil in discourse with the regular editors of the article but these guys just simply drive me mad with how they ignore dozens of other editors requests for changes and how they simply either reject or (seemingly) make up reasons to reject policy driven agruments. Its gotten to the point where I am the only person left trying to show an ounce of un-bias and I have to give up. The problem is mediation won't work because they just simply refuse to believe the article is POV. They just don't budge. External concensus rules against them but they just argue everyone away. The last straw to me was when it became apparent that they are just not interested in putting forward "featured article" quality, going so far as to say if they had to make the changes proposed to get FA status they would not do it because it is their belief their article is as near prefect as is. So what do I do? Any edit I make would be reverted and all discussion would be (and has been) for nought. I would think arbitration is the only route remaining. I don't want to jump a step "needlessly" but I am at my wits end with dealing with them. -Kirkoconnell (talk) 06:40, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

If some parties to a dispute refuse mediation, that step can quite legitimately be skipped. I would, first, try raising your concerns at various noticeboards to see if you can get new opinions. For this article, may I suggest the reliable sources noticeboard, the 'no original research' noticeboard (if there is overuse and synthesis of primary sources) and possibly the religious conflicts noticeboard? I will also raise your message with my fellow arbitrators, as some are more experienced with this sort of dispute than I am. Carcharoth (talk) 11:10, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Peer review

Could you pl review this.[12].yousaf465'

Admin Abuse

I've been blocked from editing, and the Admins who blocked me, user:tenofalltrades user:rockpocket and user:friday clever as they are, blocked me from my talkpage, leaving me no avenue of appeal.

This is Admin abuse.

Basically I've been blocked from appealing the block because I've been blocked from my talkpage.

I've even been blocked from posting here, explaining why I've actually had to log out in order to make this very post.

I am user:loomis51 and I would like to appeal my block.

Unfortunately I've been forced to come in with this "sockpuppet" of an anonymous account in order to be unblocked from appealing the block.

Would you be so kind as to unblock user:loomis51 from my own talkpage so that I can proceed to appeal my block?

This is beyond absurd.

Wherever he is, at least Kafka must be having a good laugh. 70.51.20.70 (talk) 07:43, 20 March 2009 (UTC) aka user:loomis51

Appeals of blocks in this case are done via email, either by Special:EmailUser/Carcharoth or unblock-en-llists.wikimedia.org/arbcom-llists.wikimedia.org. I've blocked the IP for block evasion. MBisanz ^talk 07:53, 20 March 2009 (UTC)

E-mail received from Loomis51 through the Wikipedia e-mailer system (so it is him or someone with access to the account). I've replied to the e-mail and forwarded it to the Arbitration Committee mailing list. I've also noted that this is about a block from June 2007 (nearly two years ago) - block log here. My first question would be why this block is being appealed now and not earlier, and were there any earlier appeals? My second question would be what has changed in the intervening time? Carcharoth (talk) 00:00, 21 March 2009 (UTC)

Your suggestion for a working group

Hi. Part of your response to the ArbCom case involving the use of myth in religion articles was to suggest setting up a working group to study the issues. I would be more than willing to engage in this idea, but haven't got a clue as to how to go about it. I was wondering if you could let me know what the procedure for doing this should be. Thanks--FimusTauri (talk) 14:36, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll make a suggestion: find some editor who is willing to host the group in their user space, and moderate it. It should ideally be someone trusted by most parties to a dispute, to be neutral and to keep discussion on track toward the goal of finding consensus, while maintaining civility. A user may ask specific editors not to edit in their user space. If a "moderator" abuses the position, the editors participating in this working group can walk to another user's space, copying or referencing whatever they might need from the original discussion. There is no absolute need for there to be only one working group, so there could be, for example, the "anti-myth" working group (I have no familiarity with the dispute here); obviously, though, consensus there wouldn't form a good basis, by itself, for proceeding to actually do something with an assumption of consensus, but it might focus that faction's participation in an overall, neutrally-moderated working group.

I've been recommending and implementing, to some extent, this kind of response to conflict, to generate focused discussions where it's possible to interdict disruption from editors who are not interested in finding consensus. Turns out, though, that usually editors will voluntarily restrain themselves, once they have the presence of a neutral moderator and they are confident that they will be heard and their views considered, which is what a good meeting chair has always had a duty of facilitating, under conditions which simultaneously protect the group as a whole.

When sufficient consensus is found in such a small-scale "committee," then a WikiProject can be started, or an existing one used, as a permanent open forum with a set of participants who have shown that they can work together. --Abd (talk) 16:43, 23 March 2009 (UTC)

Abd's suggestions sound good. I would also suggest having a look at how other disputes of a similar nature have been handled. But my main point is that both sides in the dispute should build on what they already have, and aim to find someone willing to mediate. Carcharoth (talk) 22:21, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

I fully appreciate the suggestions and honestly believe they would work in many instances - but not this one. We have a situation here where one side adamantly refuses to acknowledge a problem exists; the other side is equally adamant that there is a problem. If editors cannot see that there is a problem, how can we talk about the problem?--FimusTauri (talk) 11:27, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

If it helps to clarify what I mean, see here, where I have outlined what I consider to be the problem (including a list of policies/guidelines affected) - those on the opposing side of the argument simply disagree with all of that and refuse to discuss it. I have suggested this as a possible mechanism, where each sides presents its case then sits back and lets others evaluate the evidence.

arctic expeditions

Hi Carcharoth, I see you did some work on List of Arctic expeditions, if so you might be interested in Mietinen Young. If I have traduced it then the history of early Arctic exploration needs serious adjustment. ϢereSpielChequers 19:00, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

You think it is a hoax? I agree, but I don't see what it has to do with List of Arctic expeditions. As far as I can see, it was never on there. Carcharoth (talk) 22:22, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

Sorry I didn't mean to imply it was on the list, but I thought since you were a major editor of List of Arctic expeditions you'd have an idea as to whether Mietinen Young was a new hoax, notable hoax or fringe theory (I'm assuming that sailing to the Hudson Bay would qualify as Arctic exploration). ϢereSpielChequers 23:19, 24 March 2009 (UTC)

NB I agree with WSC, now listed at AFD. No redeeming qualities. (talkpage lurker speaks :) Franamax (talk) 11:04, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

Eucatastrophe

In doing something else, I came upon an article on Eucatastrophe and was very impressed by it. Upon looking at its backstory I found that an editor named "Carcharoth" had something to do with it. The article has not changed much since 2007, perhaps because it is very good right now and need not get much better. I see that we award early and mid-level Wikipedia users vaarious kinds of "stars" for their work, but I wld. assume "Carcharoth" is well beyond needing or valuing such baubles, so I'll write this brief tribute.Bigturtle (talk) 18:29, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

Upon looking back, I see that the article is in fact the product of lots of people, but "Carcharoth" has done great work looking after it and many other articles. Bigturtle (talk) 18:32, 25 March 2009 (UTC)

I think "lots of people" is about right. :-) I merely added a category and a talk page tag, so you really should be thanking someone else for the article. If you do read this, may I ask how you arrived at the article? From a link from another article? From a Google search? From a category? Carcharoth (talk) 09:01, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

RTVing

Just a comment that in the past Jimbo altered the RTV guidelines [13] to permit user talk page deletion in RTV cases. It has been re-worded since then, but is still substantially in Wikipedia:Right_to_vanish#Vanishing_from_Wikipedia. MBisanz ^talk 04:17, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 08:54, 28 March 2009 (UTC)

Deletion stats

I would like to call your attention to this post. Dragons flight (talk) 01:20, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That's exactly what I was after. Much appreciated. Carcharoth (talk) 01:32, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

I've posted this in answer to your question. Approximately 80% of the now existing pages were recreated without undeletion. Of the 20% that were undeleted, approximately half were restored by a different adminbot operator acting in bulk. Dragons flight (talk) 03:21, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. That is very helpful. That is almost certainly a result of this incident and the restores listed at User:ST47/restores. If this is correct, you might want to note this in your evidence. I was aware of this incident (as you can see from the ANI thread), and part of the reason for requesting evidence about undeletions was to see if that was a one-off incident. From a first glance at your evidence, it seems it was. Carcharoth (talk) 11:09, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

Request

Hello Carcharoth. :) I noticed you were listed here for general copyediting. I was wondering if, when you have time, you could copyedit Hermetic Order of the Golden Dawn. If you are too busy, I completely understand. Synergy 20:03, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

William Burns (Australian politician)

Yep. [14]. I did source him on the Deaths in 2009 page. Not many of the Australian newspapers pick up on the deaths of fairly obscure backbenchers like him, so generally we just have to keep an eye on the Hansard. Frickeg (talk) 00:34, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

No problem - I should probably have sourced that in the article itself, really. The Parliament is such a very thoughtful institution - they do that for everyone who dies. Frickeg (talk) 00:38, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Closing

Seeing as you just moved it to officially closing, could you toss a quick eye at Wikipedia_talk:Requests_for_arbitration/MZMcBride/Proposed_decision#Note_on_Proposed_Deletion. Thanks. MBisanz ^talk 08:13, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

quiet aside on arb stuff

do you think arb activity on the wiki pages of open cases is a kpi for arbcom? I'm inclined to think so - and if you're unfamiliar with 'kpi' then I can only feel a burning jealousy for those halcyon days (when kfc was far more important ;-) cheers, Privatemusings (talk) 08:54, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

Links to motions

Hi Sam. I'm not sure that many people want it (might just be me), but do you have a link to the state of the motions at the time they were closed in the Aitias case? I sometimes like to look at the voting and comments later. Kind of like the equivalent of the PD page, but for motions. What's on the page at the moment is only a summary of the final vote. Am also posting something to the evidence talk page - if you or Tip could follow up with a notification (unless I've done it myself) or ask other parties giving evidence to be more explicit, that would be good. Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 03:51, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Something like Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration/Aitias/Proposed_decision#Proposed_motions? I'll have a look at your other points later -- I have to go out for a bit. [[Sam Korn]] ^(smoddy) 10:24, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

<facepalm> - how did I miss that? :-) Carcharoth (talk) 10:36, 10 April 2009 (UTC)

Andrzej Stelmachowski

Are you looking for English language obituaries, translation of a Polish one or for Polish editors to add to the article from any they can find?radek (talk) 06:27, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

All three? I could only find Polish ones, so that will do, but needed a Polish editor to add it as I don't know Polish at all. Carcharoth (talk) 08:21, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Did you make a negative comment on Orlady's handling of jvolkblum?

Ottava Rima is quoting you for a negative statement about Orlady, at her RfA. I basically said that he is probably misquoting you. [15] You may want to comment. Thanks. --Hans Adler (talk) 12:51, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Replied there. Thanks. Carcharoth (talk) 15:02, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Response

I have responded here. If you would like to discuss the merits directly, you can feel free to leave a message on my talk page, email me, or find me directly on IRC. Ottava Rima (talk) 17:05, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for letting me know. I may not be able to find time, but will try to respond later. Carcharoth (talk) 17:27, 11 April 2009 (UTC)

I can use?

Hi there. I'm really not sure who to ask about this, but you seem to be pretty active at WP:FAIR, so... what the heck. I'm currently working on GRB 970228. I would like to use this graph in the article. Should I email the authors of the article? Should I just call it fair use? Should I try to recreate the graph myself? Yipe! Thanks. --Cryptic C62 · Talk 00:41, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Not sure. Maybe try the Help Desk? Carcharoth (talk) 00:59, 17 April 2009 (UTC)

Uh-oh

It just occurred to me that just minutes after you announced the new Macedonia move injunction, I have already broken its letter. Though not its spirit, hopefully: I do understand that the injunction is only meant to cover moves that involve issues related to the country or ethnic name or have some potential repercussions on it, right? I just did this, which I honestly think has nothing to do with it and will be uncontroversial. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:21, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

That looks uncontroversial to me. Interesting article. Carcharoth (talk) 11:27, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Maybe I ought to have reminded you guys of the need for this clarification before you passed the motion. But then again, I guess we can just leave it to common sense, hopefully. Fut.Perf. ☼ 11:30, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

We do trust that people have common sense. Cynicism not-withstanding. Carcharoth (talk) 11:40, 19 April 2009 (UTC)

Future Perfect at Sunrise inviting users to an off-wiki discussion

I thought I should notify someone from the Arbs about this. User:Future Perfect at Sunrise is inviting other users to an off-wiki discussion regarding the naming of the article Macedonia. Is this something that is allowed?--Avg (talk) 17:30, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

He may mean somewhere else on Wikipedia, rather then off-wiki. I suggest you ask Future Perfect at Sunrise what he means by what he said there before taking this any further. Any more concerns like this, please wait until the case opens and provide statements and evidence there. Carcharoth (talk) 19:36, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

I don't see how it would be anybody's business, either Avg's or the committee's, where, how, or with whom I chose to engage in a friendly exchange of opinions, in order to reach a personal consensus with selected fellow wikipedians I happen to hold in high respect. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:03, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

If you plan to hold off-wiki discussions with the aim to form a strategy on how to proceed with a Wikipedia article, my guess is that this is something the Committee would be interested to hear about.--Avg (talk) 20:07, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

AndreasJS is not the sort of person who would be interested in discussing "strategies". I would want to hear his opinons. There are actually people whose opinions I would like to hear more of, but can't, for all the noise certain other people are making. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:10, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Uh, guys, not my talk page, please. Either take this to RFAR or wait for the case to open. Carcharoth (talk) 20:08, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Well, sorry for molesting you, but I would have sincerely hoped you would not also give encouragement to bring obviously frivolous vexatious complaints like this one to the case pages. Making evidence pages a free-for-all for this kind of bickering is precisely what has in the past made arbitration not work. Fut.Perf. ☼ 20:46, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

Even within a single case, getting all arbs to agree on what is "reasonable evidence" is difficult. What tends to happen is that the arbs get drawn into the argument. My best advice would be to respond only to the evidence that you think it is worth responding to. I will try and guide parties as to which bits of evidence I personally see as most relevant to the case, but my opinions may not be the same as that of the other arbs - they may pay more attention to other areas of evidence. My advice to all parties is just to present the evidence as clearly and as concisely as you can: dates, timings, context, patterns, and so on. Carcharoth (talk) 20:58, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

You found me.

I've replied on my talk page. I generally don't see messages there very quickly, but I'll make an effort to check as the case continues/starts/whatever is going on.  — Mike.lifeguard | ^@en.wb 20:31, 21 April 2009 (UTC)

New image project

Hi. This little note is just to let you know that a proposal to merge the projects Wikipedia:WikiProject Free images, Wikipedia:WikiProject Fair use, Wikipedia:WikiProject Moving free images to Wikimedia Commons and Wikipedia:WikiProject Illustration into the newly formed Wikipedia:WikiProject Images and Media has met with general support at Wikipedia:WikiProject Council/Proposals/Files. In addition, I'm proposing merging Wikipedia:WikiProject Image Monitoring Group, because their aims seem to be very similar. Since you're on the rosters of membership in at least one of those projects, I thought you might be interested. Discussion about redirecting those projects is located here. Thanks. PhilKnight (talk) 19:26, 24 April 2009 (UTC)

CfD nomination of Category:Child suicide bombers

Category:Child suicide bombers, which you created, has been nominated for deletion, merging, or renaming. If you would like to participate in the discussion, you are invited to add your comments at the category's entry on the Categories for discussion page. Thank you. Cgingold (talk) 07:04, 25 April 2009 (UTC)

CfD nomination of Category:Medical disasters

I have nominated Category:Medical disasters (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) for renaming to Category:Health disasters (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs). Your opinions on the matter are welcome; please participate in the discussion by adding your comments at the discussion page. Thank you. -- Alan Liefting (talk) - 09:37, 27 April 2009 (UTC)

Friendship

I appreciate you very much. My criticisms are given with a smile. Jehochman ^Talk 02:26, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

No problem. You sound very stressed at the moment. Interestingly, some people say we don't have enough checkusers, and some say we have enough and SPI doesn't get backlogged. But I suppose if there were more checkusers, SPI would grow to to provide more work. Would more checkusers really help? I will point out what you've said when this next comes up (which should be soon). Carcharoth (talk) 02:42, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Yes, more checkusers would help. It's really hard, time-consuming work to do a thorough job. The thing to watch is how often cases are more than 24 hours old. When people feel that Checkuser is backlogged, they tend to give up on the process and either do vigilante-style blocks, or just suffer with the disruption (and maybe leave the project as a result). I just left an interesting remark here. If we do things right the first time, we can save a lot of work by not having to do them again. We need to get at the roots of problems rather than treating just the symptoms. Jehochman ^Talk 03:15, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Request for Arbitration:Koi Edit Warring

Since I can not directly comment on the arbitration page without a logon, I will provide you with my input here. I apologize if this violates protocol or is not the proper place.

I am the user at 169.2.124.130 [16]. My logon is Jediknight95758. I made several attempts to provide edits to the Koi Article on April 7th which were all reverted back by user LawrenceKHoo. He reverted all information back claiming that my changes were unsourced, however a second look will show that references were there. I also used the talk pages at that time, which he ingored. The same occured on April 8th. Then again on April 10th.

On April 10th, the admin Ohnoitsjamie began deleting references to commercial sites. These sites had been on there for quite some time, and he ignored them. He also posed the question in talk back in Sept 12, 2006; but still left them there. This coincided with him reverting all of my changes back claiming that my references were commercial. I made updates afterwards with new references to non-commercial sites. Ohnoitsjamie reverted all of those back without explanation. I attempted to make the changes again, this time with explanation that no commercial sites were referenced. Ohnoitsjamie reverted all of those again with the threat that I was Edit warring and that I would be blocked.

Here is where I exercised poor judgment on my part. And even though I don't claim ignorance as a defense, I did not have a full understanding of what sockpuppetry meant and entailed. I do normally use the logon Jediknight95758, and in hindsight what I did was engage in sockpuppetry. I usually use my logon, but many times start making edits without realizing that I was not logged in. Once logged in, I made additional edits; which were initially reverted by Smartse; however the follow up statement from him in my talk pages indicates that he prematurely reverted them without realizing the justification. After receiving notification from Ohnoitsjamie on my talk page that I would be blocked if I continue I stopped.

I am a member of a local koi club in the northern california region that has a forum and message board. I posted information suggesting members look at the wikipedia article and comment on its accuracy. This would also explain why many of these accounts and users are located in the nothern california region.

One member initially did, Alexa415. She posted on the club forum that she made changes. This resulted in the assumption that she was a sockpuppet, and resulted in my logon, IP, her logon, and I'm assuming her IP getting blocked.

Another member, and also a friend of mine, noticed what had happened to the former club member, Alexa being assumed a sock. I suggested to him that he not attempt edits, but rather he request mediation. He created a logon, NeltharionCA and requested mediation which was subsequently deleted. Noticing the 'block' on my logon and not having access to my system (which is a work one). I attempted to logon from his computer to find out exactly what the 'block' meant. This resulted in his IP being used to log into my jediknight95758 account and resulted in his IP being blocked also.

The other users referenced, I can't speak to, and do not know who they are. After the indicident where the request for mediation was deleted, I stopped tracking that particular article up until realized that LawrenceKhoo and Ohnoitsjamie have continued to make unsustantiated accusations to me via my talk page.

I would also like to comment on the work that user Dominic alleges that he has done. My IP [17], is unique to the Health and Welfare Agency in California. Which unless these other users, including the ones that I know, are State of California employees, they could not possible have IPs that trace back here. The other IP [18], belongs to California State Franchise Tax Board a seperate state agency to which I have no access too. The third IP, [19]. is an ATT account. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 169.2.124.130 (talk) 18:03, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I would also like to add, that all of my edits (not just on the koi pages) have been constructive attempts. I have never vandalized a page, made personal attacks against any other users. I have, in good faith, attempted to make edits which were factual, relevant, and verifiable. In using my logon, jediknight95758, I admit to violating the rules surrounding sockpuppetry, which was a mistake and error in judgment on my part. Given the circumstances however, it was extremely difficult in trying to make good faith edits where another user AND an admin were reverting everything, making accusations of edit warring (despite them reverting everything themselves), using the talk pages while they were not, and then getting threatened with being blocked. 169.2.124.130 (talk) 18:49, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Thank-you for providing that information. Technically (and thanks for apologising in advance), you should request to be unblocked to take part in the arbitration request with your account (IP addresses cannot edit the request for arbitration page because it is semi-protected). I will see if that is a possibility. For now, I will point out there what you have said here. I should say that not everyone will believe what you are saying here, and I need to check some technical points before taking this further than that. Carcharoth (talk) 19:10, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

I would normally block this IP for block evasion. In looking at the edits, there was no edit warring. You were spamming Wikipedia, and other editors were removing spam links. Editors are allowed to revert clear vandalism and spam without limitation. You have no need to evade your ban. You were able to request unblock, email the unblock list, and you even emailed ArbCom. You need to immediately stop socking and block evading. Jehochman ^Talk 19:13, 28 April 2009 (UTC)

Jehochman, I realise you think this shouldn't be at RFAR, but could you point out (here or there) which edits you are referring to above? I'm looking at some of the edits and I don't see what you are describing. We may be looking at different edits. Carcharoth (talk) 05:08, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Here's a mystery. Is this spam? www.bristol-aquarists.org.uk

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Koi&diff=283032776&oldid=283032310
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Koi&diff=283032262&oldid=283028839
• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Koi&diff=286324631&oldid=286312035

Before posting that link, I looked at the wikipedia definition of spam and that site very carefully. It is not a commercial site in the sense that they are not selling products. It is a private hobbyist club that encourages other people in the area to actively participate in their meetings. Under wiki definitions of spam, I did not interpret a private, nonprofit organization as a 'commercial site'. If I misinterpreted the definition, I apologize for using this site as a reference. Jediknight95758 (talk) 23:25, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Ohnoitsjamie (talk · contribs) seems to have reverted the movement of that link from one location to another. I think we can ask Ohnoitsjamie why they made this edit:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Koi&diff=283073700&oldid=283034220

The question to ask Lawrencekhoo (talk · contribs) is what's going on here:

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Koi&diff=286404810&oldid=286325813

Before anybody requests arbitration, I think it we should try to sort out these questions. We don't need sixteen arbitrators to look into this. One or two clueful editors should be sufficient. We should also ask Ohnoitsjamie how they discovered the dispute at this article. Jehochman ^Talk 11:05, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Another apparent spam link: www.koilive.com

• http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Koi&diff=282406300&oldid=282087158

That's one of the sock accounts.

I posted this link without the realization that it was a commercial site. I also admit that I did not thoroughly review this site before posting it. This was one of the first references that I posted. Once it was pointed out to me that it was a commercial site, I did not attempt to re-post it, and from that moment on praciticed much more diligence in reviewing what references I was using. Jediknight95758 (talk) 23:30, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Why don't you ask Ohnoitsjamie questions to determine whether they were involved or not, and then provide a bit of counseling if that's what's needed? It's not our objective to run people out of town if they make mistakes. Jehochman ^Talk 13:19, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

A little background on my end. (1) Koi is on my watchlist because it's a frequent spam target. (2) I got involved when I noticed commercial sites being used as references. [20]. I removed them. (3) An IP continued to re-add them. After that IP received a final warning, Jediknight95758 picked up the same torch; edits were quite similar enough to the final-warned-IP.I warned Jediknight95758 that I would block both accounts if it continued. Jediknight95758 got on a kick of removing sourced material, material which was restored not only by Lawrencekhoo but by another editor as well [21]. (4) Other brand-new editors jump in to make the same reverts. I smell obvious sockpuppetry (though from the admission above, it appears that at least some of it could have been meatpuppetry) and hand out blocks. That's my story. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 14:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

A few clarifying points here. (1) I did unknowingly use a commercial site as a reference (and maybe two, if a site being used by a non-profit hobbyist club is considered commercial). Once pointed out to me that the site was commercial in nature, I did not attempt to post it again, but rather replaced it with a different non-commercial site. (2) The sourced material that I removed was questionably relevant, which was pointed out on the Talk pages on April 7th, before any sockpuppetry began. Yet edits continued to be reverted without any attempt by LawrenceKHoo to discuss them on the talk pages. By the April 10th, 2009 19:06 revision, there were no commercial sites in that revision, and there was no sockpuppetry involved at that time. But over that time period from the initial use of talk pages by me on April 7th, up until the April 10th, 2009 19:08 revert by Ohnoitsjaime; both Ohnoitsjaime and lawrencekhoo continued to revert changes with the reasons that sourced material was replaced with unsourced material (even though references were provided), commercial sites were used as references (even though at that point, all commercial site references were removed), and some times no reasons were given at all. On April 10th, 2009 19:08, I was told that if I edit warred again, I would be blocked, but now I raise the question: can one person edit war by himself? Or does it take other individuals to edit war in return? Again, at that given point in time; there was no attempt by Ohnoitsjaime or LawrenceKhoo to use the talk pages. Ohnoitsjaime claims to have not used the talk pages since, he would not engage it discussion with sockpuppets, but at that given point in time, there were no sockpuppets involved. This came later. (3) Ohnoitsjaime claims that there was another editor that reverted my edits, which happened to be Smartse. However, on my Talk page is a message from user Smartse apologizing for pre-maturely reverting the edit without reading the reason why the edit was made. This leaves two people, Ohnoitsjaime and Lawrencekhoo, reverting all of the edits and not responding in the talk pages.Jediknight95758 (talk) 23:56, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

My suggestion is that we leave all but one account blocked (i.e. unblock one, any one they wish), due to the fact that their identity has been exposed in this process, and we allow the blocked people to create new accounts if they wish. The only condition being that those other accounts are not permitted to become involved in this Koi issue. i.e. Only the one unblocked account should be permitted to continue working on this Koi issue, and the attempt at mediation resume where it was cut off at the knees. No need to have a big case; no need to run anyone out of town. John Vandenberg ^(chat) 14:09, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Sounds good to me. Though Jediknight95758 has been around since 2007, they have few edits and thus qualify as a newcomer. They screwed up a little bit, but should get a second chance if they agree to stop edit warring. Jehochman ^Talk 14:12, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

That's fine by me. I'm not an expert on Koi; as I said before, I only watch the page for spam and as such I don't have any agendas regarding the content. OhNoitsJamie ^Talk 16:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

In answer to the question of what I was doing when I made this edit, I saw that an editor that had been banned for socking was socking again, and pushing the same change to the article. I therefore reverted the change on principle that we should not encourage the breaking of community guidelines and bans. I then left a message on the talkpage telling Jediknight that if he wants to rejoin the community he's got to stop socking and edit warring, and follow community rules.

On the current proposed resolution. I don't have a problem with people who have broken rules rejoining the community, as long as they come clean, express contrition, and agree to abide by community rules in the future. However, in this case, I don't see any of that from Jediknight. His current position seems to be, 'no I didn't sock, I just forgot to log in' (even though the IP and Jediknight were pretending to be different people and agreeing with each other), and 'the other sock accounts were my friends'. On editwarring, his position seems to be, 'I wasn't edit warring it was Lawrencekhoo and Ohnoitsjamie who were edit warring against me'. I don't see any realization on his part that he has done anything wrong (except perhaps that he didn't realize that sock/meat puppeting is a big deal here, and that he would get banned for it). I'm ok with the proposed resolution. However, before we forgive and forget, he should come clean, and promise to follow the spirit and letter of our community guidelines. Not doing so is just asking for trouble in the future.

LK (talk) 18:52, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Whether we block him right now, or immediately the next time he tries to game us is not such a big difference in terms of trouble to us. He's unblocked. If he causes trouble, tell me and the account will be blocked if that is what is necessary to prevent disruption. Jehochman ^Talk 19:23, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

• Jehochman, thanks for getting people on the same page here and for moving this away from arbitration. You are quite right that this doesn't need the full attention of 16 arbitrators. I have some points to make here that I didn't make at the request page, but will have to leave that until later. For now, though, could I ask Ohnoitsjamie to consider whether the mediation page he deleted could be undeleted, per John Vandenberg's proposal (which I also endorse)? Rather than argue about socks and meatpuppets and what is and isn't edit warring, and when to let people back in and how to handle socks (including when to warn the sock master and when to block), and when to talk to people and when to block instead, can I ask that everyone here work towards addressing and resolving the content dispute? A good place to start might be the comments made by Aquafanatic at Talk:Koi. Carcharoth (talk) 23:16, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

• If any of those who posted above are watching this talk page, could they either copy the above to, or link to it from, where-ever discussion is carrying on, or take part in the discussion at Talk:Koi. If no-one else gets involved, some third opinions may be needed. Carcharoth (talk) 21:22, 1 May 2009 (UTC)
  • I've now made this post to restart things at Talk:Koi. Hopefully things can start to move forward there again. Carcharoth (talk) 21:42, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

New post

I need a resolution. here is my story. I originally created a page that i had put on the main page but it did not according to your administrator fit wiki criteria which was nominated for deletion. my question is that i would have like my page reverted back to my user page but the user name "king of hearts" deleted my page without reverting it. and all of my work is gone. i thought it was free to have a user page with wiki but i guess i was wrong. i had acually thought about donating to wiki because i had always that this was a good website until my personal experience with the people that administer this cite. i do see that many people have user pages on this cite and unless they are paying for it than i think i was discriminated against and i would like this issue resolve

thank you —Preceding unsigned comment added by Keitaadama (talk • contribs) 20:07, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Not sure what you are talking about here. I won't have time to look at this until tomorrow, but it is unlikely I will be able to help. At most, I will probably end up pointing you towards someone else to answer your question. Carcharoth (talk) 23:03, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Actually, from what I can see, this was resolved here. Carcharoth (talk) 23:21, 29 April 2009 (UTC)

Cognitive science literature

Two years ago you created Category:Cognitive science literature, and I was hoping you might want to comment at Category talk:Cognitive science literature where I question whether certain articles should be in that category. However, I see you are pretty busy, so perhaps instead, I wonder if you know of an active editor who might want to have a look (it's not my field; I stumbled into it)? Thanks – I'll look here for any reply. Johnuniq (talk) 02:52, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

The JS case

Hi Carcharoth,

I hope this isn't inappropriate. I fear some of the evidence may have gone ignored by those who have already voted, so I urge you to read the evidence discussion page and perhaps also a couple of the talk pages from the relevant period before you vote. Apologies if you have done so already. MeteorMaker (talk) 22:50, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

I will be reading those and other relevant pages before I vote. Thanks for the note. Carcharoth (talk) 22:55, 5 May 2009 (UTC)

The situation when ArbCom members are recused

Hi Carcharoth, I noticed in your recuse from the case that would have been Episodes & Characters 3 that you posed a really interesting and important question. Namely: [t]he one thing I am uncertain about here is if I (and other recused arbitrators) do participate heavily in the case as editors, is the following: what standards apply regarding the arbcom mailing list and other such committee discussions to which we would be privy? Was an answer was ever given to this question (and if so, where), or would you please point me toward any discussions that might have occurred? I am considering making a further comment in relation to the proposed motion in the Matthew Hoffman case, and this issue is relevant. Many Thanks, EdChem (talk) 00:08, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

In the real world I use Basecamp (software) to manage project teams. For each project, only the relevant people are on the mailing list. Having complained very bitterly about recused ArbCom members being privy to the list during cases, I am surprised nothing has been done over the last 18 months to build a system with similar features. It would be possible to use Mailman (GNU) to manage a mailing list for each case. This is not tricky. You just need somebody with determination to solve the problem. Jehochman ^Talk 11:39, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Interesting question. To state the issue, ArbComm members have access to a means for private discussion. If they recuse and are, in theory, like ordinary editors, do they then have inappropriate special access? I would say no. First of all, as to sending argument or evidence to ArbComm, ordinary editors can send messages for private consideration to ArbComm anyway, either by sending it to the ArbComm list (but it must be approved by a moderator if they aren't members of the list) or by sending it to individual arbitrators (which would be less preferred, of course; and I know that Carcharoth, for one, has informed me that messages sent to him will be forwarded to the entire list. -- he did that not to give me a means of reaching the list, though there would be no harm in that, but to warn me about possible inappropriate argument on a pending case (which I don't think it was, but he was heading off a possible problem).

So then there is the possible problem in the other direction: knowledge of what the Arbitrators are saying to each other, and this is discussion that is privileged, it cannot be disclosed to ordinary editors without consent of those who communicated. That's taking recusal too far, there isn't precedent for it from outside organizations. When a member of a board of directors is at a meeting of the board, and the meeting is closed to consider private matters, it would be unusual to require a recused member to leave the meeting; it would only happen if there were some special circumstances. The community has trusted arbitrators with access to private, sensitive information.

So, absent special circumstances where it could be damaging for an arbitrator to have access to information -- which would require a finding of recusal and privacy by motion -- I see no problem with an involved arbitrator having access to discussion. If any arbitrator feels that what they would say should not be seen by another specific arbitrator, I would highly recommend not sending it to the arbcomm list, but to other arbitrators individually (with notice as appropriate). Arbitrators may communicate privately with one another, at their own discretion. Recusal rules apply to voting only, and a minor point might be that an arbitrator participating as an editor should use the Parties or Other sections so as to not confuse other editors as to status and authority of what they write.

Administrators in general have access to information not accessible to ordinary editors. Should they abstain from using their ability to see deleted files in a matter where they are involved? Briefly, no. "Use of tools" for recusal purposes doesn't refer to access to privileged information, only to actions leaving a mark on the project. Besides, unenforceable, which would mean that bad administrators would use it and never get caught, and good administrators would ... maybe ... abstain. Unfair advantage!

One more consideration. Suppose some list device were used to exclude an arbitrator from a mailing. Would the archive contain the message? If not, then there would need to be a separate archive, in fact, what, as many as 15! archives, or certain messages would simply not be archived. I.e., want to do this? Set up another independent mailing list (closed yahoogroup, for example) or just use cc. All arbitrators should have the direct email addresses of all arbitrators in any case, very important precaution. (With normal list settings, they probably already do.) --Abd (talk) 13:51, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for all the input. It was pointed out by another arb that we can just use e-mail filters and mark threads as appropriate. That doesn't stop arbs reading all the traffic, but as it ends up in an archive anyway, there is not much point, and we trust each other either not to read the threads or not take advantage of what is read. Carcharoth (talk) 06:24, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for your response. I can appreciate the appeal and simplicity of an honour system. I'll add an additional comment to my comments on the MH ArbCom request with this information known. EdChem (talk) 06:59, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Carcharoth, I went to post the additional comments to the MH ArbCom request, only to find that the request has been archived. This was done by AGK following private direction. In the two days prior to the archiving, Shoemaker's Holiday had made two further posts to the request, neither of which received any response on-wiki. I have posted to AGK's talk page about the archiving, asking whoever gave the private direction to be contacted. Whilst comments were still being added to amendment request, it strikes me as inappropriate for the request to be archived. When the underlying case is one that is controversial and an embarassment to ArbCom, some Committee member(s) issuing a private direction for a quiet archiving by a Clerk looks appalling. This was not a non-controversial and routine action. I realise AGK was acting on a direction, which was entirely proper - the propriety of issuing that direction is a whole other matter. EdChem (talk) 03:54, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

We seem to have come full circle here to the matter of recusals on a different case. For the record, I'm recused on anything to do with the Matthew Hoffman case because I was a party to the original case, and as a consequence have been leaving that matter entirely for other arbitrators and clerks to deal with. See also my comments made at the time of the ArbCom election in December 2008. Carcharoth (talk) 23:53, 13 May 2009 (UTC)

Concern about user Proofknow

I am concerned about USER:Proofknow editing behaviour on the Human Rights Foundation article. I am concerned about the fact that it is a brand new account, but the user has knowledge of various policies (NPOV, RS etc.), and the political nature of the user's edits - deleting sourced material, for example, certain criticism of the organisation. I suspect the user could be a sock puppet or employee of the Human Rights Foundation. Could you advise me about how to proceed? Thanks Pexise (talk) 15:01, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

WP:NOT#PLOT - Mediation?

Hi Carcharoth. I saw your recuse note at RFAR, where you urged mediation, but I'd ask how you think mediation could work on a scale as large as this, and even if possible, who would actually take the case. I wouldn't..... Steve Crossin ^Talk/_{Help us mediate!} 22:07, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Sorry. Missed this. I didn't mean individual mediation, but maybe a group effort by a number of mediators to smooth over different obstacles in the process. Helping to keep things calm as slow progress is made. Carcharoth (talk) 06:20, 10 May 2009 (UTC)

Favor

Although you removed a section from my talk page, someone has put a link to that removed section at the bottom of my talk page. Would you please remove it for me? I am afraid to do so myself. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 01:34, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Nevermind, as I have removed everything from my talk page. Please inform me if this is not correct behavior on my part, or is in violation of rules. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 15:34, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

I blanked my page because other editors were adding a link back to the "torment" section that you had removed. I wanted to prevent that from happening again. I though if I left the archives, that would make it easy for them to do so. Also, in the past, editors have rummaged through my archives to find old material to use against me in RFCs. It is wrong of me to do that? Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 14:13, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

P.S. Would it be all right to email you? I have been warned by several people not to respond to the arbitration but I would like to answer any questions you have. Regards, —Mattisse (Talk) 14:35, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

I/P articles

Thanks for your comment, Carcharoth. I've started a proposal at Wikipedia:Neutrality enforcement. SlimVirgin ^{talk|contribs} 07:29, 8 May 2009 (UTC)

Moore

MOORE, (Sir) Norman Winfrid

(3rd Bt cr 1919; has established his claim but does not use the title)

Born 24 Feb. 1923; s of Sir Alan Hilary Moore, 2nd Bt; m 1950, Janet, o d of late Mrs Phyllis Singer; one s two d

Senior Principal Scientific Officer, Nature Conservancy Council, 1965–83 (Principal Scientific Officer, 1958–65); Visiting Professor of Environmental Studies, Wye College, University of London, 1979–83 Succession

S father, 1959 Education

Eton; Trinity Coll., Cambridge (MA); Univ. of Bristol (PhD) Career

Served War, 1942–45, Germany and Holland (wounded, POW) Publications

The Bird of Time, 1987; Oaks, Dragonflies and People, 2002; scientific papers and articles Heir

s Peter Alan Cutlack Moore [b 21 Sept. 1951; m 1989, Pamela Edwardes; one s one d. Educ: Eton; Trinity Coll., Cambridge (MA); DPhil Oxon] Address

The Farm House, 117 Boxworth End, Swavesey, Cambridge, CB24 4RA

‘MOORE, (Sir) Norman Winfrid’, Who's Who 2009, A & C Black, 2008; online edn, Oxford University Press, Dec 2008 accessed 9 May 2009

Decleration of Interest

I left an answer about the ARBMAC2 about your historical interest in Macedonia. Historical concerns are part of policy. If they aren't, they should be in an encyclopedia. The guideline is the one ChrisO himself wrote but now contradicts. Shadowmorph ^{^"^} 12:08, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Zoological Society of London

You're welcome, yes, I forgot one! Just fixed that. --Cam (talk) 03:26, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

George III

Hello. Your answer was helpful but I never found out the title of the painting or the name of the painter.--Johnbull (talk) 18:05, 14 May 2009 (UTC)

RFAR/Mattisse

I just read your questions here and wanted to say that although I don't have time to answer right now (need to get some rest), I think those are great questions. I look forward to reading the answers. Thank you for taking the time to consider and ask these questions. لennavecia 04:42, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

ListasBot

So just to clarify, what exactly is it that you are asking for? Are you asking for a bot that will bring the "NAME" parameter in {{Persondata}} into sync with what's in {{DEFAULTSORT}}? Thanks, Matt (talk) 19:41, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

More a bot to flag articles where persondata and defaultsort disagree, so that humans can check which is correct. I presume your bot already detects cases where DEFAULTSORT and listas disagree? Carcharoth (talk) 20:26, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

There's not very many where, at least, DEFAULTSORT and listas disagree on the same page, because it causes the page to go to Category:Pages with DEFAULTSORT conflicts, and User:JimCubb is usually pretty good about keeping that one cleared. The bot's behavior right now is, if DEFAULTSORT exists on the page, remove it and place it into listas in {{WPBiography}}, and bring all other templates that use listas into sync with it. Now, pages where DEFAULTSORT on the article page and listas on the talk page disagree? The bot doesn't check for that. Matt (talk) 22:51, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

I'd forgotten about Category:Pages with DEFAULTSORT conflicts. That was a godsend. My ultimate aim is to have all biography pages having DEFAULTSORT, since that will really, really help with keeping disambiguation pages updated. Would you be able to list bots and categories related to biographical metadata at WT:Biographical metadata? Carcharoth (talk) 22:55, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Meh? I'm gonna have to ask you clarify that one, I don't understand what you're asking for. Matt (talk) 09:34, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

By listing bots and categories, I just meant keeping details of bots and categories at that Wikipedia page (or talk page) so similar stuff on biographical metadata is on one page for people to see. As for disambiguation pages, have a look at some dab pages for common names, and see how many articles we have that aren't on the dab page, and then consider how a system like this might help if it covered all people, not just living people. For example, if all the articles were correctly marked with DEFAULTSORT, this would be used to keep List of people with surname Smith up-to-date. Smith is an extreme example, but the above can be tweaked to give all the living James Smith people we have articles on. Compare that to James Smith and then look at the search for James Smith. It is likely that the match-up is not perfect between those three lists. Even James Smith is too common to be useful. Let's look at Holbrook and compare to Holbrook#Surname. Immediately, we see that Chase Holbrook, Curtis Holbrook, Terry Holbrook and Thomas Holbrook are not on the disambiguation page. That is what I mean by using DEFAULTSORT to help keep disambiguation pages up-to-date. At the moment, this only works for living people because they have a single category on their page. There is no equivalent category that covers all people. Which is unfortunate. If you can think of how to approach this, I'd be grateful. People have some big database dumps in the past, making suggestions for dab pages, but it is a massive task. See also Wikipedia:Suggestions for name disambiguation/Batch 3 and Wikipedia:Suggestions for name disambiguation if you are interested. Carcharoth (talk) 00:02, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

I think a pretty easy approach would be to go through Category:Biography articles with listas parameter (note the with) and make sure the corresponding articles have {{DEFAULTSORT}} tags on them, and if not, copy it from the talk page. With Category:Biography articles without listas parameter quickly dwindling down (thanks to ListasBot :-D), this would seem like a pretty effective solution to me. So, that being said, do you just want something on WT:Biographical metadata saying that that's what the bot does? Matt (talk) 00:50, 20 May 2009 (UTC)

If you wouldn't mind! Thanks. Your suggestion to copy from listas to DEFAULTSORT will work only if the listas value is correct (I noted there were objections made previously when going the other way, on the basis that people can get the sort order wrong for Asian names and Arabic names), but would be good. The category of articles that gets left out is those with no DEFAULTSORT and no listas. And then there are the biographical articles that are not tagged as such and don't have {{WPBiography}} on their talk pages. But that is another bot, I think... (various bots and people have tried to keep things up-to-date in the past with tagging biographical articles, with varying levels of success). BTW, if you get time, have a look at who created the "with" and "without" listas categories. ;-) Carcharoth (talk) 00:58, 20 May 2009 (UTC) OK, I didn't create the categories, but I did ask for the syntax to be added to the template.

Message

I don't kow how to address the arbitrators except through you. It is obvious that the FEC editors and affiliates will not let up. I feel it is hopeless. I don't want John Carter to have to deal with the ugliness, considering he is dealing with a death in his family. Therefore, I would like to withdraw all defense. If it is the judgement of the FEC editors and affiliates that I am unfit to edit at wikipedia, then I will not contest a ban. In most of the examples given, I have been right, but the editors would rather dump on me than take seriously my points. I will be better for me not to undergo this misery any more. Ir is affecting my well being in real life. So it will be in my best interests to ban me, if that is your decision. I would rather that than to be "supervised" on "parole" be those who have less knowledge than I do. My experiences is that these processes are misused. I am too tired to continue to go through this and would rather that it just end, whatever the outcome. Sincerely, —Mattisse (Talk) 01:21, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

The short answer is that this is not my decision to make. I don't have time to answer this fully until tonight (was away yesterday). I will let the other arbitrators know about your note here. Carcharoth (talk) 06:28, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Mattisse, I am back at this computer now, and I got the e-mail you sent me. One thing needs to be clear here. You said "I don't know how to address the arbitrators except through you." The way to contact all the arbitrators as a group is to e-mail them through the committee mailing list address that is given at WP:ARBCOM. I am currently consulting with my colleagues about your latest messages, but please be patient and remember that we have other cases to deal with as well. Carcharoth (talk) 20:39, 18 May 2009 (UTC)

Macedonia usage survey

You requested a more detailed survey of the usage of the term "Macedonia" in reference works. I've carried this out now; the results are at User:Future Perfect at Sunrise/MOSMAC2#Reference works. Hope this helps. -- ChrisO (talk) 18:16, 19 May 2009 (UTC)

Thanks very much for doing this. Carcharoth (talk) 23:42, 19 May 2009 (UTC)