Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Military history

Main pageDiscussionNews &
open tasksAcademyAssessmentA-Class
reviewContestAwardsMembers

Summary of Military history WikiProject open tasks watch · edit · full list News and announcements The June newsletter is now available. Editors are advised that Featured Articles promoted before 2016 are in need of review, if you had an article promoted to Featured status on or before 2016 please check and update your article before they are listed at FAR/C. Current discussions No major discussions are open at the moment Featured article candidates Tetricus I • Battle of Plum Point Bend • Jozo Tomasevich • Genghis Khan • Benjamin Jackson (sailor) Featured article review Byzantine Empire • Battle of Red Cliffs • Edward I of England • Northrop YF-23 • Middle Ages Featured picture candidates Thorsten Nordenfelt A-Class review Henry Biard • Battle of Saipan • Fort Corcoran • Sihanouk Trail • Battle of La Haye-du-Puits • Battle of Tinian • Henry Macandrew • Boot Monument • HMS Sardonyx (1919) • CSS General Earl Van Dorn • Miyoshi Nagayoshi • Ernest J. King • Tim Hughes (soldier) • British nuclear weapons and the Falklands War Peer reviews Muckrach Castle • Regency of Algiers • Wolfgang Larrazábal • Military logistics • Brighton hotel bombing Good article nominees Abu'l-Fath Khan Javanshir • Ava–Hanthawaddy War (1401–1403) • Aérospatiale SA 330 Puma • Khalji Revolution • 1864 Washington Arsenal explosion • Antoine Hamilton • George II of Greece • Roswell incident • Podgorica Assembly • Maximiliano Hernández Martínez • Mohammad Shah Qajar • Gubir shootdown • Chestertown Armory • Mariano R. Vázquez • Lockheed F-117 Nighthawk • Gotha WD.7 • Cultybraggan Camp • Constantine II (emperor) • First Hunnic War • Japanese destroyer Natsuzuki • Battle of Lewisburg • Bill Crawford-Compton • HMS Glenmore (1796) • Sentient (intelligence analysis system) • John S. McCain Sr. • HMS Trent (1796) • Eleanor of Castile • Battle of Durazzo (1376) • Charles Upham • Giado concentration camp • The Motherland Calls Good article reassessments Galatian War • Franklin's lost expedition • Justinian I • Combat Aviation Brigade, 10th Mountain Division • Joe Rice Articles that need... work on referencing and citation (147,629) • only work on referencing and citation (43,156) • work on coverage and accuracy (122,771) • only work on coverage and accuracy (19,692) • work on structure (31,804) • only work on structure (357) • work on grammar (8,172) • only work on grammar (45) • work on supporting materials (32,794) • only work on supporting materials (1,336) • assessment (663) • assessment as lists (121) • project tags fixed (5) • assessment checklists added (0) • assessment checklists completed (2) • task forces added (285) • attention to task force coverage (656)

Use of Nazi propaganda images

On 7 May User @Elektrofisch: published an article on German propaganda images from the Nazi era and how they are used in the Wikipedia, entitled Probleme mit Nazi-Heldenbildern ("Problems with images of Nazi heroes") in the de:Wikipedia:Kurier (the German equivalent of the Signpost). He explains how these images originated and what they were to convey, deals with problems of forgery by image editing (both contemporary and later), iconography and copyright issues. I won't go into the details of his argument, but his conclusion is that the use of these images in the German Wikipedia is neither responsible nor historiographically accurate. There is also a lively debate on the talk page. The argument has been made that other Wikipedia projects seem to have less problems in using these images. I know that some contributors here speak German, so I thought I would draw your attention to that article. Furthermore, it seems to me that two issues merit discussion here: First, I ran across an retouched image of Fedor von Bock. It's currently used most prominently in the article on Bock. While the German original is b/w, the image has been colored by some Wikipedia user in 2010. I consider that to be a distortion and would like to know, whether it is consensus in the English Wikipedia to use retouched images. Second, I noticed that propaganda images of Knight's Cross recipients are quite often used in the English Wikipedia with an additional description for the visually impaired. Some of these descriptions are considerably detailed and emphasize, for example, a "determined facial expression". Wouldn't it rather be appropriate to emphasize the propagandistic character and iconographic quality of those images?--Assayer (talk) 18:36, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

will answer your second point.

No, no more then any other similar image from any other nation.Slatersteven (talk) 18:42, 12 May 2017 (UTC)

Firstly, images are often retouched to improve contrast and clarity. I see no problem with that sort of retouching. Where images are retouched to change the appearance of a person, I would say that isn't ok. Secondly, alt text for images can be edited by anyone, and isn't even a requirement for images used in a Featured Article, last time I checked. The description should reflect what the person looks like as best as that can be conveyed by text. That could include a description of the person's expression where that is pertinent; laughing, crying, stern, grim etc. To a significant extent it is subjective, of course, but we are trying to help the visually impaired here, not write an essay on the use of propaganda. If you feel that the alt text isn't reflective of an image, feel free to edit it. Cheers, Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 07:27, 13 May 2017 (UTC)

I think a careful, lifelike colourisation isn't a problem - it's up to the community whether to use it or not, though. (Hohum ^@) 18:40, 15 May 2017 (UTC)

I am a little confused: Is colorization a kind of retouche which changes the appearance of a person and thus should not be used, or is it not? I think that it is a significant alteration of the original and thus such images should not be used, because the subsequent changes are by no means clear to the casual reader/viewer. Color photography was available in the 1930s and 1940s, so coloring b/w pictures makes it impossible to distinguish between genuine color photography and b/w pictures. Moreover, the approach of portrait photography in b/w is different from that in color. It requires a different technique and a different way of seeing (light & shade, texture). What's the community's take on that?--Assayer (talk) 19:35, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

I find the Bundesarchiv captions to be helpful as it makes it easy to distinguish a properly licensed photo from a fair-use one. On the colourising, I don't quite get it. I consider it to be unauthentic and pointless. But apparently there's quite a cottage industry dedicated to colourising Nazi era photos: there are hundreds, if not thousands, of such images at Commons.

Sample: File:Bundesarchiv Bild 146-1990-048-29A, Adolf Hitler-colorized.jpg, which I can only describe as garish. I attempted (unsuccessfully) to get it deleted: Commons:Deletion Request, but it looks like a fool's errand. More examples: Werner Mölders Recolored.png or Kaserne der LSSAH, Recolored.jpg, etc.

My thinking is that if we are going to use propaganda images, we might as well use the original versions, without retouching. K.e.coffman (talk) 01:54, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

I agree that only original images should be used. An article should not puff-up its topic by adding pretty colors or icons unless with good reason. A reason might be that a particular colorized image has been noted as significant in secondary sources. Encyclopedic content requires the use of authentic material and editors should not have to wonder whether a particular colorized image is "correct". Johnuniq (talk) 02:11, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

It is not just "Nazi era photos", which are being colorized; many Allied photos and even film is being done, as well; this to present it to a generation who have only grown up on color film and TV and give it more of an appearance of what it looked like in real life. That is the reasons I have read, anyway. And it gives the so-called "History Channel" reason to produce new shows. Seriously, I don't feel strongly about colorization, unless it really distorts and changes the original photo, but leave it to others to sort out. I must say I prefer the Bundesarchiv captions on the edge of the photos, as it clearly shows it is a free use photo; at least it should be on the original uploaded version on Commons. Kierzek (talk) 15:22, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

I consider it a lot like using 19th and 20th century imagined portraits for medieval people - colorization isn't quite as bad, but it's still not the same as the original. As a photographer, you do approach black and white photography differently than you do color, and guessing what the colors might have been is at best a guessing game. I'm less concerned with using some of the "action" Bundesarchiv images - as long as we avoid using the original captions when they are in Nazi-terms/propaganda. I don't think we can totally outlaw using even the worst propaganish images, because there will be occasions when they are appropriate - some of the worst bits can be used to illustrate just how bad their thinking was, for example. As for using the portraits - it's no worse than using any photographic portrait - the lead image in Winston Churchill is clearly designed to show Winston in a pugnacious, fighting, etc mood as you would expect from something taken in 1941. Should we not use that because it's a propoganda piece also? All things need to be taken with care. It'd be nice to have the de:wiki essay translated for those of us with crappy German, however. Ealdgyth - Talk 15:49, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

B/W imagery, for example WW I footage, has already been colorized by contemporaries. That's a primary source by itself. But retrospective colorization, which has become popular for TV documentaries, not at least because of the availability of modern computer technology, is a different thing. Such documentaries have received mixed reviews, and much criticism was directed against colorization as such. As one reviewer put it, the viewers are being "cheated". Historians, however, generally do not deal with colorized images. The integrity of the primary source has to be maintained. Noone would seriously consider to change the language of a primary source to make it more accessible or less offensive for today's audiences. Thus Wikipedia should also consider colorization to be an inappropriate manipulation of a primary source.

I did not argue that propaganda images should not be used at all. But the problem is that photography renders a peculiar impression of realism that is often not appropriate. I would be happy if those photography would be handled with as much care as 19th century imagined portraits of medieval people.--Assayer (talk) 23:54, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

At heart, I'm a medievalist. That means I'm used to having few contemporary sources, often incredibly biased sources, no images that could even come close to realism, and the constant fighting with the general public's misconceptions about medieval life and culture. Sometimes I wish I had simple worries like whether someone is colorizing photographs! That said - I'm not making light of the issue either. I would oppose "modern" colorizations if I ran into them on articles I'm editing - just as I oppose the use of Victorian engravings of medieval topics or the backwards insistence on using coat of arms for periods when there weren't any. All you can do is your best and that's all anyone can ask. Ealdgyth - Talk 00:06, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

I find colorization offensive as a practise. It's changing the original artist's vision in ways the viewer can't appreciate without seeing the uncolored photo, not unlike a pan and scan. That deceptiveness, however subtle, should be avoided in an encyclopedia, when uncolored examples exist. If colored photos are being used, they should be clearly labelled as "artist's impressions", just as notional planet photos are. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 16:18, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Even if colour was not a choice available to them?Slatersteven (talk) 17:50, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

I colourised a few photos several years ago, mostly American Civil War photos of famous officers – so they would be daguerreotypes – though I never uploaded them to Wiki or anything public, I was really just playing about with Photoshop and found it an interesting process for a short time. In those cases, however, the officers are wearing their uniforms, we know the colour of Union and Confederate uniforms, so it's not really an "artist's impression" in that case, it's more like remastering a damaged film and adding missing data based on what we know. Naturally, we can't be 100% sure if we're getting skin, hair and eye colours accurate, but like any kind of history, it comes down to interpreting the sources and translating them into something that is considered accurate. There's no such thing as "100% accurate" research because sources always vary in details, but there is such thing as coming close, and I think, in some cases, colourising can achieve a realistic result. The photographer would have been seeing his subject in colour, it's his machine that made it black and white. Colourisation is, in a sense, like translating a source from one language to another – some translators stick to a strict literal word-for-word translation, some embellish their translation a little to maintain the spirit of the source, while some go further to modernise the tone (e.g. Les Miserables Wilbour vs Denny vs Rose). The same can be said for the Bible and its many complete translations in English alone, which all vary in tone, grammar, wording and interpretation. Anyone approaching colourising a historic b/w photo seriously isn't just going at it like some "colour by numbers", and it would by wrong to imply that everyone who colourises photos for public use does not always research to see what colour uniforms should be, or what colour hair/eyes someone had, or what colour Hitler's suit may have been instead of just making it grey or beige because it suits him. It's only when those options have been exhausted and the artist has to improvise that colorisation becomes less reliable and artistic licence. If photo sources should only be used in their original/pure form, then that puts a lot of other things we do into question, such as using recreation photos of enactments, photos of replica weapons/armour, etc. Is it not the case that all dinosaur bones in museums are made from casts, that displays showing what a prehistoric environment looked like are recreated from evidence, that Wikipedia is full of maps that have been recreated "based on" original maps. Many of those add colours, topography and use the NATO Joint Military Symbology that wouldn't have been on Napoleonic, WW1, WW2 map – yet we accept them – we add detail so we can understand it more – based on some of the arguments here shouldn't we be scanning original maps and seeing it as commanders saw it back then. So there is a form of hypocrisy underlying any rejection of "all" colourised photos, given that we widely use other forms of imagery that were created by editors. I think it's a misconception that colourising photos is "wrong" per se. I think it has its uses and can have added value in limited situations, but it shouldn't be widely encouraged. To call it irresponsible is somewhat hyperbolic, but there should be some restraint – we don't need to see everything in colour, but in some cases it enhances the experience and can add a bit of substance to bland images. — Marcus^(talk) 09:41, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

"Even if colour was not a choice available to them?" I don't see a distinction. And I don't agree it's equivalent of remastering; that retains the original. (As opposed to the "remastering" of "STTOS", which added fresh material.) Would you colorize "Citizen Kane"? Why not? There's difference between photos of reproductions & colorized pictures, IMO: where originals don't exist, we use what's available. Colorized pictures imply original b&w ones are. Nor do I accept adding map symbols is the same; it's not like that's changing the borders or the place names. (Translating them isn't "changing".) Is it irresponsible? IDK. It should be unacceptable as encyclopedic practise, IMO. And saying "add a bit of substance to bland images" implies a b&w image can't have its own power or influence, which is a view colored (so to speak) by a bias against b&w, or, perhaps, a "currentist" (is that a word?) POV. I'd sooner have authenticity than color, because there's really no way of knowing how much "improvisation" has been done, nor how careful the research has been--& a colorized photo is nothing more than a particular person's guess; the viewer shouldn't be left thinking it's a more authoritative guess than anybody else's. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 13:17 & 13:19, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

ST:TOS is a different type of remastering which was done to bring the effects in-line with those of newer ST series' for the sake of remarketing it to younger audiences and for older fans wanting better CGI effects, since they were very dated and often clunky. I'm referring to standard remastering, not altering the content just cleaning the image - sharpening, removing scratches, gamma balance, and things that don't change the film, just make it clearer. Yes, there are plenty of old b/w films that could potentially be colourised, not with fake colour but by the use of chroma dots found on some film, as was identifed during the remastering of the Classic Doctor Who series. Several episodes in the Jon Pertwee era where only black and white film could be found were colourised using this technique because his era was aired in colour. A machine is able to identify real colours from the chromadots and covert the b/w to colour once it is digitised. Not interpretation, but rather a form of restoration. Couldn't care less about Citizen Kane, haven't seen it... what is considered "a classic" is subjective, I don't hold to this "purist" nonsense some people spout, it's a form of Ludditeism IMO and what led to undue attacks on George Lucas and him losing it with Star Wars fans, because a small number of nerdy virgin fans accused him of "meddling" and drove him nuts. Regardless, colourisation of some photos could be considered a form of restoration, bringing reality to an artificial image – since b/w and sepia are not how we see the real world, and colour is – what the camera was technically incapable of capturing, digital technology can attempt to apply, but should be done in moderation. As I said, colourising is not always a "person's guess" – at least no more than an editor weighing up a bunch of conflicting sources for an article and deciding which to apply. In reality, we're all subjecting Wiki to bias in some shape or form, whether you choose to accept it or not. As for my "bland images" comment, you took that out of context and mistakenly implied that I meant "all b/w are bland". What I mean when I say "in some cases" is just that: in some cases. For example, there are hundreds, possibly thousands, of daguerreotype photos of American soldiers taken before and during the Civil War, probably by Mathew Brady, and the vast majority of them are stuck in the same pose... overall, it's a rather unimaginative and bland collection, and only the notable figures really attract attention. Seeing a handful of them retouched and colourised introduces a freshness, allows us to see clothing, uniforms, etc in colour. It's not like we're doing a mashup between a piece of classical Mozart and an Eminem song. Human eyes see colour and in some cases it's seeing things in colour that makes us appreciate the "romanticism" of black and white imagery. And that's what I think many people's love for black and white imagery truly is – it's quaint, romantic, an example of early technology, bygone times... but that shouldn't stop us wanting a limited number of coloured examples, also, because our natural sight is designed to see people and things from a coloured POV – b/w is not a natural concept – that's a fact, not a bias. Bias would be rejecting b/w for no good reason, colouring everything for the sake of just adding colour, and making history completely artificial. One of the most amazing pre-colour photos in existence is that of the Duke of Wellington as an old man. It's a very low-quality image, I've even sharpened and colourised it out of curiosity. But I still consider the original far superior, in this instance. — Marcus^(talk) 14:36, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

An example can be found in Arthur S. Carpender. The black and white original is a scan I made from an 8"x10" photograph in my possession. Someone decided to produce a colourised version, for reasons unknown. Hawkeye7 (talk) 03:27, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

♠"ST:TOS is a different type of remastering which was done to bring the effects in-line with those of newer ST series'" Had that been all that was done, I wouldn't complain; the Doomsday Machine is much more dangerous-looking with the remastered "maw". The trouble is, footage was added to (every?) episode (sometimes only a few seconds' worth at a time), which amounts to re-directing, which is no different than a pan & scan.

♠That said, if we were discussing the development of "ST" or its history, I'd oppose using images from the "remastered" DVDs, except to illustrate the difference, precisely because they aren't period correct any more. At least with "TOS", you have the option to turn it off. Here? Not so much.

♠If it's possible to identify color, & restore it faithfully, I'd be fine with that--provided we're told it's been done, & it's not simple guesswork.

♠As for "luddite", no. I just can't imagine "Citizen Kane" or "Maltese Falcon" in color. I think there's an esthetic unity involved, & that shouldn't be tampered with, because it's tampering with the director's original vision. I'd no more take the color out of "Star Wars" (tho I happen to agree with the fans who think Lucas should've left it alone, after the fx shots were remastered... It starts to smell of greed, & it interferes with the narrative flow, the same way Marvel did "restoring" the unprinted pages of early New X-men...) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 06:30, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Relevant FfD discussion

Can be found here: Wikipedia:Files_for_discussion/2017_May_31#File:Walter_Oesau.jpg. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:13, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

Are you seriously suggesting to use that, pardon my aesthetic POV, amateurish pencil sketch? I understand that this is not really the rationale for the FfD, which is about copyright infringement.--Assayer (talk) 09:01, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

As I raised in my comment on the page discussion, the "sketch is frankly a poor substitute for a photo for a bio article". I agree that it looks "amateurish". If the photo cannot be used, then hopefully the regular editors of that article can find another photo that is acceptable for the subject. Kierzek (talk) 11:51, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I really don't see a difference between using a propaganda image and a sketch (drawn from yet another propaganda photograph) -- the photo is staged and probably heavily retouched, both done to achieve a heroic portrayal. If you go to Category:German World War II flying aces and scroll towards the bottom third of the page, you'd see a collection of such images -- all very similar, and in a way, so generic, as to not add much to the article apart to confirm that the subject was indeed a man in a uniform. In this particular case (Walter Oesau), a free image is preferable for reasons of copyright. Separately, it takes the ideolised portrayal to the next level, which seems appropriate. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:08, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

• shall we remove the Austrian generals portraits too? Those are heavily stylized. see File:Johann Graf von Klenau Freiherr von Janowitz.jpg for an example. auntieruth (talk) 21:23, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

• The Klenau image is in the public domain. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:57, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Battle for Caen review request

Battle for Caen I wonder if interested parties would mind taking a look at the article and the discussions on the talk page and offering opinions on the way the article is developing?Keith-264 (talk) 12:57, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

• @Keith-264: I left message on talk page. It's developing but it's still not clear to me what these different operations were--were they all separate attempts to take Caen? I like the way you and your coeditor are trying to collaborate. good job. auntieruth (talk) 21:43, 19 May 2017 (UTC)

They made Caen progressively untenable by inflicting attrition on the Germans each time they contained an Anglo-Canadian attack but the attrition mattered more than the town.Keith-264 (talk) 22:57, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

Actually, these operations were indeed a series of separate attempts to take Caen - most of them unsuccessful and each one incurring as many British casualties as German casualties. The unhappy response by Eisenhower - Montgomery's boss - to each failed attempt to capture the town, and the fact that Eisenhower was in the process of sacking Montgomery for his repeated failures to capture the town, make it very clear that capturing the town mattered very much indeed. However there is a "movement" that seeks to whitewash Montgomery, and to make it seem that Montgomery never failed, by retroactively altering the objectives. Montgomery himself was a major member of this "movement". Wdford (talk) 23:19, 20 May 2017 (UTC)

as a result of reading that, I went and read the article on Ike's military career. The criticism section is modest in size and scope and could probably use addressing. GraemeLeggett (talk) 07:52, 21 May 2017 (UTC)

As you can see, WD has a rather 1970s conspiracy theory of the subject and is unwilling to address scholarship since then on the question of Caen. The need to keep attacking in the east because of the slow progress in the west is also being overlooked. I fear that the article is being twisted by advocacy and synth. Keith-264 (talk) 19:03, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

This comment is inaccurate to the point of mendacity. There is no “1970s conspiracy theory”, and my edits are based on the most recent scholarship. The need to keep attacking in the east is fully recognised in the article, but I also record the view of almost all historians that the stated objective was the CAPTURE of Caen, not the launching of repeated failed attacks on Caen. Even D’Este, probably the historian most favorably disposed toward Montgomery, states that the capture of Caen was one of Montgomery’s primary objectives. I also record the view of almost all historians that Montgomery was deceptive, and once again, even D’Este agrees with this theme. So please – where is the “advocacy and synth” that he is fretting about? Wdford (talk) 22:56, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

I have already mentioned on the talk page that I'm cutting my losses because I'm wasting my time. Consider this

Even D’Este, probably the historian most favorably disposed toward Montgomery, states that the capture of Caen was one of Montgomery’s primary objectives.

So were Carentan and St Lo; Monty was the ground forces commander not just the Anglo-Canadian commander. US failures in the east were his just as much as the successes on both flanks were.Keith-264 (talk) 23:23, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

The US forces were in the west, and it was the British who were failing in the east. Carentan and St Lo were part of the Normandy Invasion, but they were not part of the Battle of Caen, and are in fact far removed from Caen. Where is the "advocacy and synth" that you were complaining about? Wdford (talk) 06:07, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

This is a conclusion, not a description. Keith-264 (talk) 06:53, 23 May 2017 (UTC)

Commonwealth forces were not failing in the east but were steadily destroying the German forces by attrition. The German Army contained the eastern offensives at the cost of expending their armour and mobile reserves when sound military tactics would have called for withdrawal before the inevitable catastrophe. The Battle for Caen ended with the German Army in France suffering a crushing defeat and near annihilation. It was Montgomery who commanded the victorious forces and it was his flexible strategy that led to victory. Damwiki1 (talk) 14:20, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

I changed my mind about cutting my losses having fetched a few more sources from storage and tried another request here (see below) framed to avoid it being a content dispute but a survey of opinion about form. RegardsKeith-264 (talk) 14:28, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Great War official histories online

http://generalstab.org/links/official-histories-ww1/links-special-official-histories-of-the-first-world-war/

Regards, Keith-264 (talk) 19:10, 24 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Keith, I've added this to the resources section of the World War I task force. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:43, 29 May 2017 (UTC)

Intercept

We hear on the news that one aircraft intercepts another, or even one boat intercepts another. Visitors must be arriving at Wikipedia to find out what this is. The newspapers never give a definition.

Interception goes to a football article. Interception (disambiguation) and Intercept are dab pages. We have Interceptor aircraft, but there is little about how it all happens in modern times.

Should we have a new article that talks about the procedure with boats and planes?

Anna Frodesiak (talk) 01:49, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Visitors often arrive at Wikipedia, only to find out that it is not a dictionary. Maritime and aviation usage differ enough for separate articles to be appropriate, for example the term is far more common in the context of aircraft. Speaking for aircraft, we already have Interceptor aircraft and it is nowhere near long enough to consider splitting. By all means expand that article and, if it ever gets too long, that would be the time to propose a split. — Cheers, Steelpillow (Talk) 19:09, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Would it be sufficient to define interceptor fighter by contrasting it with the zone fighter in pre-1939 thinking? Keith-264 (talk) 19:19, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't think you can do that, since even in 1939, the goal was to intercept, tho it might not have been described the same way. (And GCI, as a term, isn't really that recent...) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 23:34, 27 May 2017 (UTC)

Interceptor had a specific meaning. Keith-264 (talk) 01:07, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Some information in a European context at Quick Reaction Alert. Alansplodge (talk) 21:33, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Battle for Caen layout question

To try to establish the semblance of consensus for the article, I would like opinions on the best way to combine the history of the fighting for Caen and the writing about it since. Are these really two articles rather than one? Should the description of events be more strictly segregated from explanation? Is it pointless to argue about the Aftermath without a Prelude? Are RS, NPOV, SYNTH and Wikipedia:Manual_of_Style/Military_history#Sources (and any others) being adequately adhered to? NB I have an obvious potential conflict of interest, which is why I'm asking about objective matters here. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 12:20, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Personally, reading the article and having a laymans knowledge of the debate, I think there is enough for an article on the dispute. It is a significant dispute in military historical terms and would, I would suggest, meet notability. This would allow stripping out a lot of contentious material from the article. But you may then have a tighter focussed dispute over how to handle a summary of the dispute in the article itself. Monstrelet (talk) 12:50, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, I had the same doubts about the Schlieffen Plan but perhaps the "History of the Schlieffen Plan" section and the material being recondite avoided irreconcilable differences over content. I'm thinking that at least we could corral the controversy stuff in a "Histories of the battle for Caen" section under a 2nd level header? Regards Keith-264 (talk) 13:28, 28 May 2017 (UTC)Keith-264 (talk) 14:30, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

Proposal for including Cullum numbers in Wikidata

There is a proposal to include Cullum numbers in Wikidata to improve authority control, etc. Please feel free to comment at https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Wikidata:Property_proposal/Cullum_number TeriEmbrey (talk) 15:06, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

I voted to support the idea. I'm concerned that the on-line access is restricted to members of WPAOG. Does anyone know if the association would consider sharing content through the Wikipedia:Library?--Jim in Georgia Contribs Talk 22:09, 28 May 2017 (UTC)

I've requested access to The Register of Graduates at Wikipedia:The_Wikipedia_Library/Databases/Requests#The_Register_of_Graduates.2C_U.S._Military_Academy. Comments welcome, at least by me, at that page/section.--Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 18:18, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

Index of World War II articles

In the Index of World War II articles series, shouldn't people be listed by their last names?

It seems to me that this is one of those questions to which it is easy to answer "yes" (and I do), but who will assume the onus of doing it? --Lineagegeek (talk) 23:22, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I'll start, maybe even today. --Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 15:55, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Australian War Memorial site

The site was reconfigured last night and there are glitches with accessing some collection item. The "old site" can be accessed at [1] while they are sorting things out. Regards Cinderella157 (talk)

Thanks - I was wondering what the issue was myself. It mostly seems to work in Chrome but not my old IE version. Anotherclown (talk) 08:21, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm in the middle of using it for a bio, and all the links have changed... I can't say it is a lot easier to navigate. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:10, 31 May 2017 (UTC)

It's certainly much less nerd friendly at the moment... Nick-D (talk) 11:10, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

I looked in it yesterday and found that the easy click click has been replaced by vagueness. Has it been commercialised? Keith-264 (talk) 15:44, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

It looks like it has been made more "social media friendly". There is nothing wrong with this, as long as the old functionality is also retained, which sadly is often not the case. From the banner at the top of the old site:

The Memorial’s new website is available at https://www.awm.gov.au . The updated site features a new design, improved search functionality and better access to our collection and staff knowledge. This old version of the website will be decommissioned within the coming weeks.

Carcharoth (talk) 12:02, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Day and month of the Battle of Maldon

I have opened a discussion at Talk:Battle of Maldon#Day and month of the battle, and am notifying the WikiProjects identified on that page. Narky Blert (talk) 22:22, 30 May 2017 (UTC)

This is a dispute about date. Made a comment there. OccultZone (Talk • Contributions • Log) 02:51, 1 June 2017 (UTC)

I found a reference which describes how the August date was sourced from contemporary records, which I have added to the article. The claim about Whitsun seems to be without foundation and has been removed. Alansplodge (talk) 21:37, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Resolved

Damon Jesse Gause

Damon Jesse Gause doesnt appear to be particularly notable although claimed as s "Hero of World War II", ahould it be nominated for deletion? thanks. MilborneOne (talk) 22:29, 2 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't know if there are any other escapees from Bataan. That may be enought to make him ntable, but I'm neutral so far. --Lineagegeek (talk) 23:25, 2 June 2017 (UTC)-

Books about disinformation

Three new articles on books about disinformation tactics as used during information warfare :

1. Disinformation (book)
2. The KGB and Soviet Disinformation
3. Dezinformatsia (book)

I've nominated them both for Good Article. If anyone wants to grab one of them for GA review, that would be nice. Sagecandor (talk) 01:56, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Added one more new one: Dezinformatsia (book). Sagecandor (talk) 17:48, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

These three above are now nominations for good article. Sagecandor (talk) 22:47, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Locator map template question

Would some kind soul point me towards a locator map (the sort that you can put red dots and place names on) of Normandy please?Keith-264 (talk) 15:38, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Gday Keith - is this suitable for your purposes? Relevant commons category is here I think. Anotherclown (talk) 23:54, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

BTW if you need some minor changes to the file above (like colours) I have some *very* limited experience with modifying .svg images so would be willing to have a shot for you if you tell me what is needed and can point me in the direction of a source. No guarantees though! Anotherclown (talk) 23:59, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Greetings,

Lion-sur-Mer

Caen

Vierville-sur-Mer

Cherbourg

class=notpageimage|

COSSAC plan

I managed this but I'm looking for a Normandy map. I found

Basse-Normandie region relief location map

this but don't know how it goes into the template (if at all). I tried Normandy, Normandie, Basse-Notmandie here {{Location map+ |France instead of France but no good. Regards Keith-264 (talk) 00:10, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Sorry Keith I'm out of my depth with this too. Is there anyone else able to assist? Anotherclown (talk) 00:24, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

How about:

This is "France Basse-Normandie" to the east would be "France Haute-Normandie"

Or the relief map:

Oooooh I feel such a berk! ;O) Thanks....Keith-264 (talk) 07:14, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

PS Vierville and Lion had the same coordinates [no they didn't] so I think I'll experiment with Ouistreham.Keith-264 (talk) 07:17, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Roy Godson

Roy Godson.

New page.

Expert on national security, covert operations, information warfare.

Please expand with more references if you like. Sagecandor (talk) 15:53, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Clint Watts

Clint Watts

New article.

Former United States Army officer.

Former Special Agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.

Foreign policy analyst and has repeatedly testified on cyber security matters, before the United States Senate, and the United States House of Representatives.

Could use some work and expansion if anyone wants.

Thanks!

Sagecandor (talk) 20:45, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

Improved it more after a Prod [2]. Sagecandor (talk) 21:39, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

This is now a nomination for good article. Sagecandor (talk) 22:47, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Translation of German Wikipedia article "Sprengschacht"

In the process of translating the German Wikipedia article on the Bundesstraße 432 to English, I found an interesting article: de:Sprengschacht. I wanted to translate the article, since it refers to hatches built into streets during the Cold War which, when detonated, would slow the advance of Warsaw Pact troops. However, I don't know a suitable translation for the title of the article. When viewing a machine translated version of the article, it disagrees on what to call it, calling it "explosive bay" in the title and "blasting pit" in the first paragraph.

I have two questions. First, does English Wikipedia already have an article on the subject, and second, if it doesn't, what is an accurate translation of the German word "Sprengschacht?"

Thanks,

DraconicDark (talk) 23:34, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

• Don´t know if there is an according article. However the U.S. Army manual "FM 5-102: Countermobility" of 1985, respective chapter available online over here, covers it as demolition shaft and prechamber shaft system. ...GELongstreet (talk) 23:50, 3 June 2017 (UTC)

How do you rate your historical interest?

Just want to encourage an informal discussion, here, for project members. How do you rate or view yourself in terms of your historical interests?

Consider your interest not just in relation to editing Wikipedia, but in terms of how you behave in relation to your prefered areas of history: collecting books, war films, documentaries, etc.

Do you call yourself a history buff, an armchair general, an amateur historian, a professional historian, something inbetween? Is it just a hobby or something deeper? Are you in a society or club that encourages learning and sharing things?

Do you attend reenactments or visit museums, castles, and similar historical places or special events often to expand your knowledge? Do you attend archaeological digs or go treasure hunting? Do you take trips or holidays to places with a historical relevance in order to learn rather than relax?

What drives your interest: just learning it, some kind of nostalgia, had a relative serve in a war, maybe you served yourself and want to know more about other wars?

There are people who say NASA and such space projects are a huge waste of money because there is too much to worry about on Earth to spend time looking at stars and galaxies, but there are also people who say looking at the past is a waste of time, that we should focus on the living, the present and future. How do you feel about anti-history sentiments? Is it an important and under-valued subject? Has it become a lost art that has faded from the curriculum of many schools due to political correctness, or an adversity to what is relevant to a country, or simply because governments and school boards can't decide what should and shouldn't be included? What should be mandatory, if anything?

Please feel free to discuss your background, feelings and impressions in detail regarding your interest, commitment and involvement in learning history and what it means to you personally.

Thanks — Marcus^(talk) 19:07, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I've been interested in history ever since I could read and at college in the early-80s, tended to a structural-functional perspective on society. I think that great man explanations are an embarrassment and treat class conflict as the main force determining events; perhaps unusually for someone who takes military history seriously, I'm an anarchist. After the late-80s, I had little time for serious research but after cutting my working hours in the late-90s, devoted more time to it and a little to my surprise, found that I had become interested in the Great War for the first time since reading Biggles in the late 60s. Having spent 16 years working in residential services, concentrating on the effect of structure and organisation on human behaviour, I found many analogies between my experience and the effort that Great War armies made to adapt to industrial warfare. I stumbled on Wikipedia when I joined the interweb in the early 2000s and after a slow start, taking out punctuation marks next to conjunctions, began to write as well as copy-edit.

I joined a small informal group which was going through many of the Normandy 1944 articles, adding the results of the scholarship of the campaign that had been written since the early 90s, some of which revised the revisionists of the 70s and 80s. After that, I got started on the Western front articles 1914–1917, with occasional excursions into obscure areas and I've been there ever since putting in description, which tends to balance facile explanations from the mediocre historians who give military history a bad name. Some newer publications have advanced our understanding of the war and I've been able to revise some of my revisions to articles; I've got more critical of commercially published hackwork as it's got easier to spot, especially with the centenaries to be cashed in on (not that I'm bitter that they've got the gig instead of me, obviously). Along with finding it interesting, writing for free on Wikipedia is a way of repaying the generations of British people who from the Somme in 1916, built the working class welfare state, which gave me a house to live in, the doctors and teachers my family could never have afforded and the chance to avoid the fate of Billy Casper. Keith-264 (talk) 00:02, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

I was interested in history from an early age. I still read a lot of history books. I wrote my Master's thesis on the Great War, and later my PhD on the Second World War. I have contributed to some books. Living in Canberra gives you access to good military libraries and archives. Most of the military records are kept in the Australian War Memorial here. I do attend conferences when I can, and enjoy talking to historians, especially ones from other countries. I have enjoyed travelling to battlefields around the world. I started updating the Wikipedia in 2006.

Historians, like scientists, have always pointed to the usefulness of their work, lest it be considered on the same level (of funding) as the humanities. Military historians generally enjoy the support of the military, who appreciate the value of lessons learned; but are disliked by other historians, particularly those of the Baby Boomer generation. If I was allowed to put up a shingle and teach Military History 101, I could pack a lecture theatre; but universities are not run on the basis of what the undergraduates want to learn. Hawkeye7 (talk) 05:11, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

I've been interested in history since about Grade 6, thanks to Ned Beach's Run Silent, Run Deep. I've since gotten interested in the history of war (mostly) more broadly; the political (or grand strategic) is much less interesting to me. It's not just what was, tho; I'm also a member at an alternate history website, where we can examine what might have been (which bears on my other passion, science fiction, to which I came even before Beach; blame Tom Swift for that ;p ). I tend to concentrate on the WW2 era, but I'll look at anything that strikes my fancy, from Ancient Rome to the 100 Years War to Vietnam. (I've read all the Dorsai novels, too. ;p No Saberhagen, tho.) Why do I contribute what I do? Because I know there are people out there who are interested in the same things I am, & may not be able to find the sources I have available; at the same time, I hope to attract & encourage others with sources & material I don't have, so I can learn, too. For me, that's probably the key: I'll always learn something interesting. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 06:37, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Like other respondents, I have been interested in history since I was young. After some changes of mind, I wound up getting my bachelor's degree in history (perhaps impractical, but since I had been offered a commission and entry to pilot training, all I needed for the job was my AB. I'd guess that one influence was World War II (my father and two uncles were in the Army Air Forces, one uncle in the infantry and another in armor). Although my focus is on US Air Force (and predecessors) history, my current reading is two opposites The House of Truth (about a progressive/liberal salon in the early 20th century and its impact on liberal thinking) and The Evangelicals: The Struggle to Shape America. Not always US, though, prior to that it was The Romanovs. --Lineagegeek (talk) 22:57, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

List of wars involving Bulgaria

I've temporarily protected List of wars involving Bulgaria to put a stop to the foolishness, but can some other people watchlist it for the stupidity that will inevitably occur from assorted range-hopping IPs and SPAs. For months now they've been editwarring to get versions of this text into it in which Bulgaria single-handedly wins every war of the 20th century, including WWI, WWII, the Vietnam War and even the Rwandan Civil War. You won't need any specialized knowledge of Bulgaria, as the edits are so ridiculously overblown they're very easy to spot. (Sample quotes: The Bulgarian Army Annihilates the Isreali Navy, Airforce and Army of Tanks, Bulgaria and the Central Powers Annihilate the Allies on the Entire Eastern Front, Bulgaria Commits Genocide to a Majority to The Rwandan Population.) ‑ Iridescent 19:41, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

The list is based on unreferenced 3 line stubs which contradict its content. Other issues include grammar and Bulgarian POV pushing in the Result section. How this simple list became such a disaster is beyond me.--Catlemur (talk) 20:13, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

What I know about Bulgaria could be written on a stamp; I just reverted the most obvious stupidity such as Bulgaria's defeat of the USSR in World War II and protected it to stop any more crap being added. I've no idea how far back the crazy goes here. (I know Middle Ages has had long-standing issues with Bulgarian nationalists pushing hyper-fringe theories about Bulgaria being the dominant power in Europe, so I suspect this is more of the same.) ‑ Iridescent 20:46, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Also, the table at the top is a duplication of the bullet list below it, except that the table has a lot of POV pushing and at points sounds like Bulgarian nationalist propaganda. Kges1901 (talk) 20:53, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Two articles one project

Hi, I've made two articles that I think are relevant to the project, they are "RAVISGUR" which is some kind of supervisory unit of the Croatian police in world war 2. And a commander of the first US army, 173rd airborne brigade, etc. "James H. Johnson Jr." I do not know how to link these two articles to the project, can someone add them please? Factsoverfeelings (talk) 21:23, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

I added the necessary WikiProject tags to RAVISGUR. I suggest reading the following guidelines to improve the article: WP:CAT and WP:FOOTNOTES. Cheers.--Catlemur (talk) 21:38, 4 June 2017 (UTC)

Merger proposal of Battle of Chamdo into Incorporation of Tibet into the People's Republic of China

Merger of Battle of Chamdo into Incorporation of Tibet into the People's Republic of China is proposed. It is discussed at Talk:Incorporation of Tibet into the People's Republic of China#Merger Discussion, where I invite you to comment. --George Ho (talk) 03:23, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

WWI in popular culture.

The song A Small Victory has nothing to do with WWI, however the accompanying cover art and videoclip are WWI related does it belong to the WWI in popular culture article?--Catlemur (talk) 11:06, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Hmmm... the soldier seems to be wearing a Mk IV Service Respirator (introduced in 1926) and is holding a clip of ammunition for a 40 mm Bofors gun (in British service from Sep 1939), so I'm going with the Second conflict. Alansplodge (talk) 12:56, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Apologies, this is more likely to be a US soldier, in which case the earliest it can be is 1940. Alansplodge (talk) 13:00, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

@Alansplodge: Well the music video seems to be depicting a mix of both wars, as the Germans are wearing WWI era helmets.--Catlemur (talk) 14:09, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, with some Roman legionaries for good measure. Alansplodge (talk) 16:23, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

The photo was used on the cover of LIFE magazine, September 18, 1939 issue, with the title "Britain Goes to War". [3] — Marcus^(talk) 14:11, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

That explains the 1902 Service Dress tunic instead of the 1938 Pattern Battledress. Alansplodge (talk) 16:23, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

What is too much detail? What is enough detail?

Because K.e.coffman (talk · contribs) has started work on reduction of detail on another article (see Helmut Wick tags, and I've asked him to hold off on his energetic pursuit of details until we resolve the same issue regarding Werner Mölders. I suggested we move the entire discussion of the talk page and conduct it here. Assayer (talk · contribs) agreed. So here it is. I do not know how to adjust the discussion on the talk page to redirect people here, so perhaps someone better versed in such things can do that at Talk:Werner_Mölders#Deletions_of_details. Perhaps we should invite someone from biography to join this discussion? @WP:MILHIST coordinators: @Creuzbourg:, @K.e.coffman:, @Iazyges: & @Assayer:. auntieruth (talk) 21:33, 5 June 2017 (UTC)

@Auntieruth55: Thanks for the ping. There are two related issues here. One is the amount of intricate detail dedicated to minor topics, such as the subject's early service in the infantry (in an article about someone known as a pilot). Other examples include names of non-notable siblings, or dates of attendance in elementary school, etc. The other matter is whether these details are being given due weight. Please see WP:DUE:

• "Neutrality requires that each article or other page in the mainspace fairly represent all significant viewpoints that have been published by reliable sources, in proportion to the prominence of each viewpoint in the published, reliable sources. (...) Undue weight can be given in several ways, including but not limited to depth of detail, quantity of text, prominence of placement, and juxtaposition of statements."

The article in question has been tagged as possibly containing unreliable sources; please see: Talk:Werner_Mölders#Tags. Given that only apparently questionable source provide this information, the weight given to such details becomes undue, IMO. Perhaps Template:Undue weight would be more appropriate in this situation? K.e.coffman (talk) 00:41, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Looking at this, I would agree with the detail on the Iron Cross (& go further {& IIRC, I've done it on other pages}, taking out what's left behind, as still OT; that belongs on the decoration's page), but not with removing the translations; keeping those for foreign-language awards (& other items) is pretty routine & not an excessive amount of detail. TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 01:40, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure if I agree on the translations. If they were routine, then we'd expect Russian translations of the award names in the articles that show up in Category:Heroes of the Soviet Union. I did a spot check, and it's not the case. Besides, interested readers can click on the link if they would like more information on the award, including the name in the native language. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:14, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

• Simply because something doesn't show up in a similar category doesn't mean it shouldn't show up. It may be because no one has done the comparable translations. This isn't automatic, as well we know. It requires an interested party to do that. KEC, you are quite welcome to provide the translations for the other category. auntieruth (talk) 17:58, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

This is yet another example of K.e.coffman trying to impose his ideas on "intricate detail" on en WP against consensus. As I pointed out at Talk:Werner Mölders, the level of detail included in a quality dictionary of biography is a minimum standard for a comprehensive WP article, especially as that would be only one source of information about the person. Other sources will provide more detail, of course. At that discussion I linked an example of a WWI Australian Brigadier General, Raymond Leane, not a very high-ranking officer in global terms, a one-star. I'll repeat what I said here. Leane's Australian Dictionary of Biography entry includes such things as his father's occupation and religious beliefs and the fact that he was a lay minister. It also mentions what his maternal grandfather's occupation was. It also states what schools he went to, what job he did before joining up, and describes his career after military service, as well as when and where he got married, who to, and how many kids he had. It also includes anecdotes from his service, lists his brothers by full name, and includes all notable awards he received. These details are all a part of the rich tapestry of his life and contribute to an understanding of the man. Judging from the pattern of his actions over a long period, K.e.coffman is hell-bent on deleting all of that type of information on any subject who was a German who served in WWII on the basis that is is "intricate detail". As I say, my view is that something like the detail in an ADB entry is the minimum standard for a comprehensive WP article, and I think that is borne out by military history biographical FAs on people from all countries. Attempting to enlist UNDUE, NPOV and RS to justify deletion of details about a person's life is mere empty and tendentious wikilawyering, and he is obviously manipulating any policy or guideline he can find to support his campaign to remove all such details from German WWII biographical articles. It doesn't matter to K.e.coffman how many editors disagree with him, as shown with his continuing of his campaign at Helmut Wick when the discussion at Werner Mölders is ongoing. He blindly carries on regardless, pointily quoting WP policies and guidelines to obfuscate the issue so he can continue with his campaign. That is the opposite of what is expected on en WP, which is editing collaboratively and respecting consensus. K.e.coffman shows no sign that he is even interested in consensus unless he agrees with it. If he is opposed, he claims it is only a "local consensus", so he forum-shops elsewhere or just carries on with his campaign regardless on other articles (a la Wick). I have already provided a large number of diffs in an ANI thread about K.e.coffman's tendentious editing behaviour, and am happy to back them up with more. I am sure that I am not alone in being heartily sick of the negativity and drama created in the Milhist space by this editor. At some point his limited positive contribution to en WP at articles like Battle of Prokhorovka is outweighed by the negative. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 02:39, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

No, you´re not. But this whole situation is nothing new, isn´t it? I see little chance for a positive change without administrative intervention ...GELongstreet (talk) 02:53, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

• Agreed, GE. My inclination with this is to leave articles that have a achieved a status (such as Featured) alone. The level of detail in these articles reflects a broadly based wiki-wide consensus. A-class articles at least reflect a project wide consensus. I'd prefer to leave them alone too.

FWIIW IMO if an article has reached FA based on the content, then there would need to be something of substance to warrant significant changes to the article. Further, I agree regarding a "broad coverage" being given. Things mentioned by Peacemaker67 are not unusual details. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:17, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

When Peacemaker67 referred to the various national/state dictionaries of biography as examples of what is the minimum detail required to be comprehensively encyclopaedic and took the Australian Dictionary of Biography as an example, I pointed to the standard German dictionary of biography, the Neue Deutsche Biographie (NDB), which features a much shorter and more concise article on Mölders. Others, however, were quick to point out that Wikipedia was not a paper encyclopedia and not constrained by any means in relation to the level of details. So it is easy to cherry pick a national biography which is more talkative than other national biographies, declare that to be "minimum standard" and then move beyond that to allow even more details. So far I haven't read any attempt to define "intricate details", but the pervading attitude seems to be anything goes as long it is "reliably sourced". Any detail may interest someone, so the rationale goes, and whoever does not want to read those details, may skip over them. I objected that details have the potential to trivialize a biography and hamper accessibility and readability. To give an example from Hans-Ulrich Rudel: On the morning of 12 August 1943, Rudel and Hentschel respectively completed their 1,300th and 1,000th combat mission. Hentschel was the first air gunner to achieve this mark.[37] On the morning of 9 October 1943, Rudel and Hentschel respectively completed their 1,500th and 1,200th combat mission. Rudel was the first pilot to achieve this mark.The event was celebrated at an airfield at Kostromka, south of Kryvyi Rih, and was attended by General der Flieger Kurt Pflugbeil, commanding general of the IV. Fliegerkorps (4th Air Corps). This reads repetitive and this is how you celebrate anniversaries. Is it encyclopedic information to know when Rudel took a few days off, where he spent his vacation with his wife, or which mountains he climbed as a privateer? This "rich tapestry of his life" was given about the same weight than his post-war political career as a leading Neo-Nazi. It seems that there is no definition of the appropriate level of details, except that no details should be removed of any biography. If I would want to give that argument a mean spin I would suggest that this is a laissez fair-approach particularly for German WWII biographical articles.--Assayer (talk) 09:32, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

From what I can tell, what constitutes "Intricate detail" on German WWII articles appears to be exclusively defined by K.e.coffman (with a cheerleading part played by you), and no correspondence will be entered into as he bulldozes all opposition in pursuit of whatever it is that drives him to do this. I chose the ADB because that is the dictionary of biography that I know best, because, strangely, I am Australian. I did not "cherry-pick" it. It provides a good baseline. The OBL and DBL are admittedly shorter on detail that the ADB, which is also written in a prose style, unlike the Austrian and German ones which are almost in shorthand, but the detail found in the ADB is completely unexceptional as far as I am concerned. Your quoted example from Rudel's article is entirely encyclopaedic in my view (although the prose could probably be condensed slightly) as it is about important moments in Rudel's flying career that he shared with his gunner, who was also celebrating an important personal milestone on those dates. Whether someone was on leave or not may explain why he wasn't flying, creating a gap in the chronology. I would probably only include it if it was useful as part of the overall narrative. Explaining where he went on leave may also be relevant, as it shows the reader that despite a huge number of individual missions, pilots got a break from the front line. Few casual readers would intrinsically understand that all soldiers periodically get leave at various stages, even during a war. The same goes if he was wounded or attending training, and therefore away from flying duty. If Rudel's post-war career as a leading neo-Nazi needs expansion, why don't you find some reliable sources on that and add it? I am sure no-one will object. But doing that does not require the wholesale deletion of other material. And finally, as I have pointed out here and elsewhere, it is not a "laissez faire" approach, it is all about comprehensiveness, a Featured Article criteria. Something that K.e.coffman apparently has no appreciation for, despite the clear consensus when these articles were promoted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:15, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

There DOES need to be a consensus as to what the definition of "intricate details" really is and is not. There is always room for edits for concision, but is a matter of discernment (and good faith) that must be used when removing parts from an article. There must be enough detail to give a well rounded presentation of the subject. We are here to present subjects and biographies of persons (no matter who they are or if someone might consider them "good or evil", so to speak) in a WP:NPOV way; those who are notable for general readers. Good examples of well presented detail in a GA bio is Heinrich Himmler; a good example of detail for a FA article is George S. Patton. An example of an article with need for editing as to detail (and also relies heavily on a primary source is Herbert Werner. Kierzek (talk) 13:06, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

I think I can say "here,here" to this though without having read Herbert Werner. Tagged for too much detail, it is only C-class and it relies primarily on an autobiography, which is perhaps too close to the subject to be considered reliable without other confirming sources - as tagged. A quick glimpse, it looks like a blow-by-blow summary of his war-time career - only avoiding how often and when he went to the head. Cinderella157 (talk) 13:24, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: Do you want to have the discussion become ad hominem? You are Australian and find the details in the ADB completely unexceptional, I am German and do find that level of detail exceptional. But as others have pointed out, Wikipedia is a different kind of encyclopedia.

So let's talk about "comprehensiveness" for a minute. That remains an empty phrase unless there is no established standard against which to measure what that actually means. Some have argued that Wikipedia adresses both a general audience and the specialists. Both may have different standards of "comprehensiveness". I would insist, however, that Wikipedia was not conceived of as a specialized reference work for military history.

Moreover, all these details convey a certain image and fit well into a certain narrative. Take Rudel's case: It's basically his own narrative, an endless account of numerous missions, devotion to duty, comradeship and even a close escape. "Important personal milestones" means "important" from Rudel's POV. Why should we follow that POV? The details lend authenticity to the whole narrative, and many of those details are aptly referenced to Günther Just, Rudel's biographer and collaborator. Now you may want to argue that these are only facts and that Wikipedia is committed to NPOV and does not lecture people about certain POV. But, firstly, the notion that "casual readers" need to be informed about some things is lecturing from a certain POV, secondly, there is no narration of facts that is not also an interpretation, and thirdly, an indiscriminate wealth of details puts undue weight upon Rudel's narrative, thus distorting the way Rudel is actually represented in scholarly literature. The NDB article, e.g., puts at least as much emphasis on Rudel's post war activities and scandals as on his wartime exploits. Therefore, I can hardly imagine that this problem can be helped by adding even more details.--Assayer (talk) 17:39, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

• It seems to me that the lack of detail in such sections of the Rudel article as his post war career as a notable neo Nazi is no reason to decrease the amount of detail in the sections on his career as a Nazi. I agree with Peacemaker67 (talk · contribs) that you, K.e.coffman (talk · contribs), are welcome to add such detail from a reliable source, but that the lack of detail in this section doesn't mean the destruction of the other sections. I thought the GA bio on Heinrich Himmler was a good example of the GA level of detail, however, it should also be noted that detail about Himmler's career is also available elsewhere in the related articles. This is not true of much of the Moelders material. I didn't think there were many articles on the German squadrons, etc., and consequently that info has to be included in the bio article. I thought the FA article on Patton was also very informative, however, --and this is a big however-- as an American general he lacks the "controversy" of a German flyer. Fundamentally, I don't see much difference in the level of detail on Patton and the level of detail on Moelders. What is lacking is the translations (which make the Moelders article seem more detailed) and the parenthetical details that explain things specifically German. auntieruth (talk) 17:58, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

♠"Leane's Australian Dictionary of Biography entry includes such things as his father's occupation and religious beliefs and the fact that he was a lay minister. It also mentions what his maternal grandfather's occupation was. It also states what schools he went to, what job he did before joining up, and describes his career after military service, as well as when and where he got married, who to, and how many kids he had. It also includes anecdotes from his service, lists his brothers by full name, and includes all notable awards he received. These details are all a part of the rich tapestry of his life " Yikes. I'd call most of that way OT. Unless it has a material influence on the subject's career, leave it out. Are we going to include Chris Claremont's grandfather's job? Bob Glidden's? Doug Thorley's? J. K. Rowling's? I can see including it for Barack Obama, maybe; Martin Luther King, Jr, yes (for context, at the very least); maybe Donald Trump's. Otherwise? Show cause or leave it out.

♠As for the "anniversaries" on Rudel's page, that's a bit redundant, I agree; date of his "mission milestones" isn't essential. (Mention of the peak number might do it; maybe ever 1000?) Date & location of leave, IMO, is better suited for a longer work than an encylopedia article, where there's space to deal with the issue, & an expectation (& acceptance) of greater detail.

♠There is an issue here, IMO, of balance between what's of interest to the specialist & to the general reader. I'm not convinced so much would be of interest even to most specialists.

♠As to the translations, I agree, if they were available for Russian, I'd leave them in. (Actually, I'd probably use them in preference, transliterated to Roman & linked to the English-language page, but...) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 01:15, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

• ADB is not the only biographical dictionary to include such details. For example, most of the Soviet and Russian biographical dictionaries include social background as well as the subject's education level and what he/she did before joining the military. The more recent ones that used previously classified archival documents as sources are even more detailed. They also include the subject's post-military career, but not family life. However, I think that including family life in an article is not intricate because that's a significant event in a person's life and as long as its reliably sourced contributes to article comprehensiveness. Kges1901 (talk) 07:54, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

outdent

I would like to suggest that we leave Featured Articles out of the discussion, Coffmann, unless something comes up (a new source, a new biography), that would significantly change how the person is viewed. Such an instance might, then, warrant an additional section on the person's place in historiography, or something of that sort. But I do think the German aces articles that have achieved FA should be left alone. That achievement in itself represents wide consensus on the level of detail appropriate in the article. I realize that this means at least two other complications:

1. restoration of the article to its Featured Article level of detail
2. restoration of the "mentioned in Wehrmachtbericht" materials.
   

What do others think? auntieruth (talk) 17:58, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

This is a complex issue for an outsider to be fully across; however, my opinion of what should be included in a biography probably lies fairly close to Peacemaker67's example of entries from the ADB. That said, in all fairness I also agree that in some of the articles in question there has been a number of examples of intricate detail / minutia that has probably rightly been excised. Certainly though I am opposed to the bold removal of referenced content from articles that have been deemed to be GA/A/FA by the community and think that if editors have issues with specific aspects of these articles at first instance they will need to raise a discussion on the talkpage and develop consensus if material is to be removed. This is clearly too contentious an issue for WP:BOLD to apply. At the same time there may need to be some limit on the number of such discussions that are ongoing at one any time, as they are clearly becoming a burden on the community to the point of becoming disruptive (perhaps even focus on one article at a time). The fact alone that some articles may lack details about the more controversial aspects of a subject does not seem reason enough to me to remove other details. Indeed I'd say the solution here is to add the missing details (assuming the reliable sources are available for them) and as far as I can tell there would probably be broad support for this approach. Anotherclown (talk) 00:26, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

I find myself in support of Peacemaker67's position here. There's always room for debate on what should and should not be included in an article, of course, but I think that a good portion of the content being excised here is beneficial to readers. Ed ^{[talk] [majestic titan]} 01:38, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

While I'm inclined to leave FAs & the like, with agreed-on content, alone until this issue is settled, I don't think they should have blanket inviolability, if the result is against including detail they contain (& wouldn't, were they re-assessed). (Am I being clear?) A page rated FA must, IMO, continue to conform to the best of the latest standards, not to what was in place when originally rated or assessed. (That may be contrary to policy or guidelines; it's what I think...) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 06:39, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

• I agree with this, Trek, with the qualification that wholesale changes of articles should cease while we address the underlying issues K.e.coffman has. auntieruth (talk) 16:34, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Oh, I agree entirely, or it's just going to mean a mess of rv'g for no good reason. (I took that as given...) TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 11:55, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

GA / FA articles

The key issue here is GA / A-class / FA pages based on (what I perceive to be) questionable sources. I raised this issue with the community over a year ago: WWII Content: Otto Kittel & other FA/GA articles; warning: very long thread. The discussion was inconclusive, but produced an article on Franz Kurowski, one of the leading pulp writers on the German war effort of 1939-1945.

I've had a list of such articles on my user page for over a year now, and I've been quite open about how I view them: Special mentions, including GA / FA articles. This came up again at the Joachim Helbig GAR where I offered to compile a list of articles that were using potentially problematic sources: [4]. There was no response to my suggestion.

What I'm currently doing is merely tagging the articles with sourcing issues & undue levels of detail. I've also removed redundant citations to a dated source (Gerhard von Seemen) & the Wehrmachtbericht, etc; sample edit: [5]. The matter of the Wehrmachtbericht has been discussed close to a dozen (?) times already, so I did not believe it was a controversial action. But I'm certainly open to discussing it again and / or can provide links to these past discussions.

The tags (a combination of "unreliable sources", "undue weight", "overly detailed", and "one source") have not yet been challenged. Perhaps we could discuss them, for example: Talk:Werner_Mölders#Tags, Talk:Adolf_Galland#Tags & Talk:Erich_Hartmann#Tags, among others.

I'm again offering to compile a list of articles I consider problematic and provide a summary of associated issues, so that we could discuss these articles as a group. Would that be helpful? K.e.coffman (talk) 02:43, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

KE, you're welcome to do that. I think generally that the tag of undue weight comes about when the biographies used as sources talk about wartime service, but don't go much past that. Thus, we have the emphasis on war time service. As for unreliable sources, Let's start with those, okay? Because I think therein lies the crux of your problem with what has been written so far. As for tagging, please stop until we resolve this. It's not helpful and it's extremely frustrating for the coordinators to keep track and try to address this. So hold off on the tagging please. auntieruth (talk) 16:32, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

The more I read about "too much detail" as a justification for removal of material, the more I believe it is a mask for removing material because of POV issues. As far as this article is concerned, I ultimately agree in principal with User talk:Auntieruth55 and User_talk:Peacemaker67. I'd even consider major changes to articles other than FAs requiring consensus. --Lineagegeek (talk) 23:55, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

although it's not entirely clear with whom @Lineagegeek: is agreeing .... I think LG means that 1. removal of the material is a mask for the removing editor's POV issues; 2. Lineagegeek agrees that changes to FAs and other articles require consensus. Have I read this correctly? auntieruth (talk) 15:31, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

That's what happens when I put too much between double brackets (edited). And yes, that is what I am saying. To clarify "other articles" I refer to highly rated and detailed articles, whose quality might be impacted by the maojor change being made--Lineagegeek (talk) 16:27, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

• Great, I will provide such a list. Please give me a day or so. K.e.coffman (talk) 19:10, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

List of tagged pages

As promised, here's the list of the articles currently tagged. I included the year when the article was first promoted to GA; links to relevant Talk page discussions where the issues are articulated; and the tags themselves (I provided a legend for them below). Where available, I also included the subjects' entries in the Neue Deutsche Biographie. I noticed that there were two types of entries: one that provides a biographical sketch, and one that only provides a name / year born & died / profession and links to other repositories of sources. I linked the latter ones as "Index only".

Legend

• 1S = {{One source}}
• 3P ={{3rd party sources needed}}
• FS={{Fansite}}
• RS = {{Unreliable sources}}
• OD = {{Overly detailed}}
• UW = {{Undue weight}}

Year GA	Article	Tagged	Relevant Talk page posts	NDB entry, if available
2008	Hans-Joachim Marseille	RS OD	Unreliable sources tag Overly detailed article Length of article	Index only
2008	Erich Hartmann	RS OD	Tags Glorification	N/a
2008	Heinrich Bär	RS OD	OR & fringe sources Extremist publication	N/a
2008	Jagdgeschwader 1	RS FS	Excessive intricate detail	N/appl.
2009	Helmut Lent	RS OD	Unreliable sources Intricate detail	Index only
2009	Werner Mölders	RS OD	Tags Update on literature Recent edits	Bio sketch
2009	Walter Oesau	RS OD	Tags	Index only
2010	Friedrich Geisshardt	RS 1S	Tags	N/a
2010	Adolf Galland	3P UW	Tags	Index only
2011	Helmut Wick	RS OD	Tags Sea of blue, etc. Helden Der Wehrmacht	Index only
2013	Hans Waldmann (fighter pilot)	RS OD	Tags	N/a
2014	Joachim Müncheberg	RS	Tags	Index only
2014	Hans Philipp	RS 1S UW	Tags	N/a
2014	Hermann Graf	RS OD	Tags	N/a
2015	Rudolf Frank	RS 1S	Tags	N/a
2015	Theodor Weissenberger	RS OD	Tags	N/a
2016	Hans-Ulrich Rudel	RS OD	Sources Intricate details	Bio sketch

@Auntieruth55: & anyone else who's interested -- once you had a chance to review, how would you like to proceed? K.e.coffman (talk) 01:03, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• My observation re claims of (not) a reliable source is largely directed at a particular source and then others by inference. The "questioning" of reliability comes back to a review. These sort of tags relate to "lend[ing] undue weight to certain ideas, incidents, or controversies". The question then, is: are there certain ideas, incidents, or controversies which have been given undue weight and what alternative analysis is offered? I am seeing these tags being used in a way which is "marginal" to their intended use and frankly, tendentiously. Personally, I believe that tagging is a bit of a cop-out. If you know enough to tag an article then you probably know/have access to sources to collaboratively improve the material in question. Broad tags don't really help anybody. For example, Garland has been tagged as 1S where it does use several and because it uses an "approved" biography. But what specifically is questionable or has it been tagged "just because you can"? Cinderella157 (talk) 03:17, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• This sort of drive-by tagging is unhelpful and tendentious and is too often used as an excuse to later "trim" articles to suit the taggers POV. I say, get in and edit them yourself, improve them. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 05:49, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• improving them doesn't necessarily mean wholesale deletion of material. If someone thinks that there is too much emphasis on one aspect of an Ace's career, then find information to add about another aspect. Deleting material doesn't necessarily improve and article: it can be, and often is, a form of censorship. auntieruth (talk) 19:03, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Just took a look at Friedrich Geisshardt. The talk states:"The article is largely sourced to a WP:QS catalog of Knight's Cross winners: Obermaier, Ernst (1989)... Most of the citations are to a single page from the source (p. 51) so one wonders how the article could be a summary of that one page ..." The article basically recounts the military career briefly. It expresses essentially no analysis, opinion or similar and where it does, it is from another source and is a negative perception of the subject. There is no statement as to why the source should be considered questionable and more specifically, why it should be considered questionable WRT the material being drawn upon. The article cites 11 references of which nine are citations are from the aforementioned source out of 22 (I hope I can count). I have not been following this but IMHO these tags seem most inappropriate. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cinderella157 (talk • contribs) 07:53, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• First, sources: I don't have a problem with a source the discusses one aspect of a person's life, especially when that source focuses on military careers. How is this unreliable? And if the article relies on that source, and not a lot of other sources exist, how is this "undue weight" to either the subject or the source? If the source itself doesn't extend past, for example, WWII military career, then how can we expect an article to discuss post-war career? And if the subject died in the war (as Mölders did), then how can we expect much more than his youth and military career? I think, actually, that the Mölders article is one of the more balanced articles in this category out there, because there is a lot of material on his pre-war life. auntieruth (talk) 18:57, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
• Second, re overly detailed. Again, this is a matter of personal perspective. I'd rather see an article as "overly-detailed" rather than under detailed, especially when there is material available to source the details. The random tagging of an article as overly detailed, need of trimming, etc., is a point of view. The difference between these articles and articles on, for example, Goebbels or Himmler, is that G and H created policies etc. that warrant spin off articles in their own right. Since there are few spin-offs for the articles in question—even most of their units don't have stand-alone articles—the level of detail does not seem untoward to me. When possible, these articles refer to other campaign articles, unit articles, policy articles, etc., and if something those articles is mentioned, it is simply mentioned in the context of the article, not fully explained. auntieruth (talk) 18:57, 10 June 2017 (UTC)
• I think, although I'm not sure, that the argument has been raised that "Heroes of the Soviet" doesn't have similar articles, and that perhaps the English wikipedia's many articles on Luftwaffe aces of WWII is out of proportion with the similar articles about the Soviet Union aces and heroes, and that this gives undue weight wiki-wide to the Nazi aces. This is, of course, a facetious argument: the lack of articles in one subject area is not related to the multiple articles in another area. It is a matter of editor preferences, not of wikipedia or project policy. Furthermore, the mention of an ace is "index only" is hardly giving undue weight to a flyer. It may mean a lot of things, including a dearth of reliable sources when the article was written. auntieruth (talk) 18:57, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

@WP:MILHIST coordinators: are there additional comments on this? auntieruth (talk) 18:59, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

These are things that fixed one piece at a time. I suggest identifying and working on the perceived specific problems rather than engage in general tagging. North8000 (talk) 00:33, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I don't see an easy solution here to be honest. Some of the articles tagged as being "overly detailed" are long and indeed some of the material that has been removed probably is not necessary. Yet at the same time in amongst these edits I also find material that seems relevant (to me at least) that is being removed, whilst the rest probably falls in the grey area of "editorial judgment" and could go either way. However, as a general statement of principle I see no problem with a detailed article as long as it is accurate, and indeed that seems preferable to me than the opposite. So unless there are clearly established issues with a source being used I don't see an article's level of detail being sufficient reason to remove information. Ultimately though, given that there does seem to be a variety of opinions as to what information is relevant, it seems to me that Bold, Revert, Discuss really needs to be applied to each article where there is disagreement, with the editor/s proposing changes self-reverting any changes that are in dispute, making a case for said changes on the talk page and then discussing each of them with the other interested parties. If a local consensus cannot be established to support the specific changes made and / or tags applied then I think it reasonable that the articles be restored (if necessary) to their last stable state (e.g. potentially that following GA/A/FA review). In order for such a process to be done in good faith though there probably needs to be a mutual agreement on how many discussions there will be open at any one time and how long each discussion is given to establish consensus. Otherwise this will very rapidly become unsustainable and disruptive (if it is not already). Anotherclown (talk) 00:48, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree with much of what is being raised here (if not indeed all of it). Firstly, I feel it is important that we recognise that regardless of whether something is GA or FA, it doesn't preclude it from further improvement. Scrutiny is a good thing. That said, extra care should be taken in how this is achieved as the goal really needs to be to make the articles better than what they were to begin with (and what is an improvement is often subjective, so therein lies the rub, I guess). Many people will have put a large amount of effort into these articles, and their efforts deserve to be built upon, not dismantled. Additionally, many of these articles (the FAs at least) are likely to have a higher amount of views, so it becomes a reputational issue for Wikipedia as a whole if disputes become too public, or if changes aren’t completed in a coherent and deliberate manner.

Anyway, to the issues at hand (at least, the ones that I perceive above)… Regarding tagging: IMO, tagging should only be done sparingly (if at all), and the tags should really only remain for as short a time as possible. (The focus should be on fixing the problem, and the tag is really only necessary if there is consensus that the problem exists and that no one can easily fix it. If there isn't consensus that the problem exists, then a tag serves only to privilege one view of an article, to the exclusion of other views). Some of the tags I looked at above I agree with in principle, while others not so much. Some of the one source tags do not seem right to me (for example Hans Philipp which clearly has more than one source).

Regarding concerns of too much detail...this is complex, IMO, and difficult to provide a generic solution. Some of the information that I have seen in similar articles is too detailed, IMO. For instance, some articles I have seen provide exact timings for an aircraft being shot down or airframe serial numbers, etc. For an ace with a small number of aerial victories it might be ok to include a good level of detail about each victory in narrative form, but this should be pitched at an appropriate level for a lay person and where some aces have hundreds of victories, a more succinct overview style is probably more effective. Equally, some of the articles seem to provide extra details in an incidental way, which imply that they are really not necessary and potentially hinder easy comprehension of the article's main aspects. That said, some finer details add to the reader's understanding. For instance, details of a person's upbringing and family of origin can help us understand them better. Additionally, while a biography of a military officer should no doubt focus on what they are notable for over other more minor aspects, it is still important in my opinion to provide a reasonable coverage of their personal life etc. as ultimately no one is one-dimensional and failing to cover things like education, family background, etc. risks painting an incomplete picture of the subject. But it is subjective, I agree.

So, how to resolve this? With difficulty, no doubt. Like AC, I pretty much feel that each case will need to be handled on a separately through BRD and maybe FARC and GAR, and I would see this as an incremental process so as to not overwhelm editors or the system. Having said this, perhaps there is an opportunity to develop some sort of project guidance on what should generally be included in a military biography, through a central discussion? This could then be captured in a separate section of WP:MILMOS/C. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:32, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I'll pick up one of the issues passed over rather quickly above. As auntieruth put it: I don't have a problem with a source the discusses one aspect of a person's life, especially when that source focuses on military careers. How is this unreliable? And if the article relies on that source, and not a lot of other sources exist, how is this "undue weight" to either the subject or the source? The fact that a source focuses on certain aspects of a biography is not per se a problem, but it also does not mean that this source is per se "reliable". Most of the sources we are talking about plainly do not qualify as historical scholarship. Maybe Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources (history) is only an essay, but it seems that Milhist does not even remotely subscribe to the idea that Wikipedia should be based upon historical scholarship. Rather the notion seems to be that there is a popular demand for these kinds of biographies and therefore available sources are reliable, regardless of author, means of publication, reputation for fact checking or bias. If the MGFA is asked to provide résumés on certain Wehrmacht soldiers like Mölders or Marseille they routinely note that there is no historical scholarship available. In the case of Marseille the MGFA explicitly noted that attempts by "popular literature" to suggest an ideological distance between Marseille and Nazism were misleading. Still Wikipedia closely follows the narrative of that popular literature, quoting it at length. If there is no historical scholarship available, but only popular literature with a certain POV, and if that popular literature is used extensively for even the most minute detail, I call that "undue weight" and "unreliable". The knowledge that we have about a certain person is then misrepresented and substituted by a certain image, because that kind of literature follows a certain POV, incorporates certain notions of militarized manhood and follows a political agenda. Military historian Christian Hartmann has aptly called these books "galleries of heroes" and that's also what Wikipedia has become. Wikipedia even listed articles as GA and FA featuring the standard phrase The Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, with its higher grade Oak Leaves, was awarded to recognise exceptional battlefield bravery or military leadership. Well, you could just have written, that the subject was an extremely brave German former Luftwaffe fighter ace who exhibited exceptional military leadership, because that's what is implied anyway. To be clear, I am not making a case that I do not like those biographies. If historical scholarship is available, everyone should make full use of it. But if it is not available, popular literature should not be allowed to fill the void with its POV. It is misleading to provide the casual reader with GAs and FAs on historical figures like Himmler and Goebbels based upon historical scholarship alongside GAs and FAs based upon dubious popular literature. --Assayer (talk) 15:18, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Scholarship is about a critical analysis and not simply about the reporting of detail in either a popularist context or otherwise. To say: "The Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, with its higher grade Oak Leaves, was awarded to recognise exceptional battlefield bravery or military leadership." vs "extremely brave German former Luftwaffe fighter ace who exhibited exceptional military leadership" is a matter of detail. Is the former a matter of fact? Is choosing not to report the former an "editorial" POV? WP makes a clear distinction between "fact" and "verifiable" sources too. This is not an issue of MILHIST but WP "policy", if anything. Furthermore, in a WP context, reporting the former of the two examples over the latter is not a matter of POV (or being popularist) but a matter of detail - of which the actual facts are not in dispute. To say that such detail should not be reported, IMHO represents a reactionary POV. A "poularist" source may be criticised wrt to opinion or analysis and, if it is in error in detail, this should be pointed out but, if it satisfies WPs essential criteria of editorial oversight, then it is a reliable source - as distinct from a scholarly source. The matter of "weight" is one in dealing with opinion or analysis, so more "weight" might be given to scholarly sources in the matter of analysis or opinion. The "proponents" here (ie those arguing "unreliable sources" or "undue weight" appear to be arguing a "minimalist position" in reporting on all "notable" Germans of the Nazi era (regardless of sources) and this appears to be a matter of their "POV" and their position is that everybody else has a biased POV. This is my observation as somebody that has no specific interest in the subject matter. Regards Cinderella157 (talk) 17:06, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

• I would add argue this: simply because a work is designed for popular readership does not make it unreliable, nor does it preclude a basis in scholarly research. There are a lot of "popular" histories that qualify for inclusion among reliable sources because the authors themselves have done some serious scholarship to make them so. When my dissertation is published, it will probably be as a "popular" history because there is a market for such works in French Revolutionary/Napoleonic wars/German history. Popular history is a marketing choice. For example, the Osprey Men-at-Arms series are popular history, yet they are generally reliable and widely cited. Would you tell me that anything written by Otto von Pivka is unreliable simply because it's "popular" and doesn't have Digby Smith's name on it? I agree with Cinderella157 above that classifying popular histories as inherently unreliable because they are not scholarly qualifies as the definition of bias. auntieruth (talk) 16:07, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

The idea that popular histories are unreliable as a matter of course is a non-starter. If you and K.e.Coffman can point to specific problems with specific books, we can deal with those, but blanket statements about popular histories or, what is K.e.Coffman's standard MO is to simply label a source as "WP:QS" with no justification whatsoever, are frankly unacceptable. Parsecboy (talk) 17:23, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm guessing that Parsecboy meant Assayer, not me.  :) 17:52, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Indeed I did. Thanks for clarifying, Ruth. Parsecboy (talk) 17:55, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

I have read through the first seven articles on the list of tags above. In terms of (1) "overly detailed", I found none of them to be so. There are a very few places where they might be wordy, but wordiness is easily fixed without massive deletions of material, or of turning the article into a contest. (2) the one referred to as a fan site is a completely bogus claim. I saw nothing in there that warranted such a statement. The article reflected the material similar to articles on other units: I just read a plethora of articles on the Royal Air Force squadrons and none can touch this one for quality and sourcing. (3) Reliable sources? Which one? Why, and how? Again, it seems like a snipe to me, looking for something that isn't there, and making mountains out of molehills. I think that we need to accept that there were "notable" Germans of the Nazi era. They did not all agree with the party line, although some of them did. They were capable, individually and collectively, of heroic acts, notable and positive leadership as well as notably negative leadership. auntieruth (talk) 17:52, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

First of all, I have to admit that I do not fully understand what precisely Cinderella157 is arguing. But I do know, that I did not classify popular histories as inherently unreliable , because I referred to "popular literature" as the term is being used in WP:HISTRS. This essay does not claim that a work is unreliable, because it is designed for a "popular readership" (I would rather say: broader readership.) Instead, historical scholarship may include: Popular publications by non-historians that were reviewed favourably in explicit book reviews or review-articles by historians in scholarly peer-reviewed journals. Whereas historical scholarship generally does not include: Popular works that were not reviewed . So, to claim that I made a blanket statement about popular literature is a serious misrepresentation of my argument, all the more since I gave examples. If you want to argue that publications by Osprey are "generally reliable", because, I don't know, the publisher has a reputation for fact checking and its publications are regularly reviewed favorably in scholarly historical journals and recognised as sound scholarship by other historians (by review or discussion), that's fair enough. But I still think it is not too much to ask for some of those reviews and discussions for some works in question. For example, if a reviewer concludes that a certain work by Digby Smith was "marred by frequent factual errors", I would not consider that work to be wholly reliable and would refrain from using it for the Battle of Leipzig, where there is a ton of scholarly literature available. But we are not talking about Digby Smith's work, but about, for example, John Weal's work, who is Osprey's "primary Luftwaffe author and artist" and whose "passion for German aircraft", according to Osprey, "makes this work a treat for students of the subject".

The last statement concerning the alleged "bogus claim" leaves me a bit perplexed. There is a privately hosted website, welcoming the reader with a grisly self-compiled image of a Messerschmitt Bf 110 E under a brown banner with the inscription "Luftwaffe 1933-1945" in a pseudo German type and you saw nothing in there that warranted the statement that it was a fan site? There is even a thread in the forum, in fact, it's the first one on the list, with members describing their motivation. The Luftwaffe Research section features a study arguing "that Western air power defeated the Luftwaffe and therefore enabled the USSR to survive", which is a bold statement, or, as the author himself aptly describes the acceptance of his thesis, "yet this is still insufficiently understood by contemporary historians." Anyway, WP:RSSELF applies, i.e., (disclaimer) while I do not argue that every personal web page is inherently unreliable (end of disclaimer), I'd like to see more hard evidence than none can touch this one for quality and sourcing , particularly given the content of the Sources and Books, full of publications by Motorbuch and the like but conspicously lacking works by Horst Boog. As to RS, I don't know where to begin with: Maybe with Franz Kurowski. Does the MilHist Project still think that this Landser pulp writer, who has a really bad standing among WW II historians, should be liberately used to write Wikipedia GAs and FAs?--Assayer (talk) 23:52, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

I think the issue with the "fansite" tag is that the tag has been misused. The "fansite" tag refers to the WP article and not to sources. I believe that auntieruth's comments are about the WP article wrt this tag but Assayer (and other) are referring to a reference cited in the article. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:18, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

However, evidence exists that ww2.dk is not a fansite. For example, in Black Cross/Red Star Volume 2, respected military aviation historian Christer Bergstrom includes ww2.dk on a lists of sites that he says:

"In recent years, several Internet sites have evolved with a supply of high,quality information in the field of aviation history. The authors have received invaluable material for this book directly from and via the following Internet sites, whose owners have undertaken considerable research work." And Barrett Tillman also seems to have used ww2.dk as a source for a footnote here. If ww2.dk were truly a fansite like you claim, I doubt that these two respected historians would have used it.Kges1901 (talk) 08:34, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

To be clear, I do not consider Christer Bergström or Barrett Tillman to be "respected historians". They write "popular literature" in a different style and with a different approach than academic historians. I recognize that I view their work from a different perspective than you and I acknowledge that writers like Bergström have access to documents and other materials outside official archives, because they are on friendly terms with the veterans. But I also see that as problematic, because it makes it more difficult to verify their research and puts them at risk to loose their objectivity.

What I wrote about ww2.dk still relates to the problem of RS. As to the article as a fansite, I am not sure whether auntieruth reviewed the article as it was, before K.e.coffmann "attacked" it. Here's a diff from June 2016 [6]. I would consider something like The badge of 9./JG 1 depicted a flintlock pistol on a heart surrounded by the words, (translated from German) "Who Shoots first gets more out of life". After his appointment as Geschwaderkommodore Oberstlt. Walter Oesau introduced a new emblem on 12 November 1943 and used by all of JG 1; a red–winged ‘1’ inside a white diamond surrounded by a black circle. There seem to have been some disputes over emblem details, with one version enclosing the white diamond with a red circle instead of a black one to be comprehensive for "Luftwaffe artists" and model builders, but not necessarily addressing the interests of a more general readership of Wikipedia articles on WW II topics.--Assayer (talk) 09:41, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Who would you consider academic historians? As for descriptions of unit emblems, Wikipedia is meant for enthusiasts and modellers, too, and information about unit emblems can be included as long as it is reliably sourced (or at least from a source that is considered reliable for the in depth unit history portion, not necessarily its conclusions on the war in general). As auntieruth said above, it isn't like the general reader is forced to read through more specialized unit descriptions, and can merely scroll down to read something that he is interested in. Kges1901 (talk) 00:52, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Discussion of specific articles

Thank you to everyone for their feedback. Regarding sources, MILHIST has a recommendation in their Manual of Style (WP:MILMOS#SOURCES), which I generally follow in assessing articles. It states:

• Articles on military history should aim to be based primarily on published secondary works by reputable historians. (...) Editors are encouraged to extensively survey the available literature—and, in particular, any available historiographic commentary—regarding an article's topic in order to identify every source considered to be authoritative or significant; these sources should, if possible, be directly consulted when writing the article.

When I started coming across flowery language and dubious claims in WW2 articles, I surveyed the literature and discovered the two genres that we are perhaps dealing with here:

1. Landser-pulp literature, also known as Landser Hefte, which aims to heroicise the military men and strays into historical fiction while doing so.
2. Deliberate historical distortions, published by authors such as Richard Landwehr ("writing from the fringes of the far right") and various authors affiliated with HIAG, the post-war Waffen-SS lobby group in West Germany, and its in-house publisher, Munin-Verlag. In the German language, these works are generally published by far-right and extremist publishers such as the Türmer Verlag, the Arndt Verlag, and the Pour le Mérite Verlag, among others.

The prolific Franz Kurowski, with 400 titles under his name and various pseudonyms, spans both, with the Panzer Aces & Infantry Aces falling into the first category, and Bombs over Dresden into the latter. The sources in the articles that I tagged generally fall into one or the other of these categories.

As far as the other tags go ("Undue weight", "Overly detailed"), here's is a good essay that aligns well with my views on the topic -- Wikipedia:Reliable sources and undue weight, -- so I'm just going to quote from it:

• Reliability can help judge due weight: The reliability of a source can help you judge the weight to give the opinions of that source. The more reliable the source, the more weight you should give its opinion. For sources of very low reliability, due weight may be no mention at all.

It may help, perhaps, to discuss articles individually. I'll add them as sections below. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:08, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

As you have quoted, the matter of weight goes to opinion. Yet, you appear to be applying this to details. Specifically, you appear to have misunderstood or are trying to misrepresent the concept of weight as it is intended to be applied herein. Cinderella157 (talk) 02:25, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, all sources are reliable for their opinions. If it's an opinion of the source that a particular pilot's "informal training was unique in the entire Luftwaffe bomber force", but the source is not reliable, do we publish such an opinion? K.e.coffman (talk) 02:31, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

The essay on weight deals largely with conficting opinions within sources or POVs - "should fairly represent all significant viewpoints". Not so well covered in the essay is the extent to which the opinion is controversial or otherwise. Your example is not particularly controversial and presumably, the source can reasonably justify the opinion and there are not other sources which provide a conflicting opinion. In which case, it is not unreasonable to publish such an opinion. However, if it were more controversial "his action single-handedly stopped the Russian advance" and other sources disagree on this, then it might still be appropriate to include and then discuss the disparity between sources, indicating the scholarly basis for disagreeing with the statement. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:02, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

The key statement for me is "For sources of very low reliability, due weight may be no mention at all". If only unreliable sources are available on a particular aspect of a topic, do we ignore WP:RS and use questionable sources instead? K.e.coffman (talk) 03:13, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

"... sources of very low reliability". Herein lies the issue. The essay does not indicate quantum choices - either in or out. It indicates a continuum of choices in how to deal with the issue of weight. A negative review on a particular aspect of a work does not render it questionable in all respects of that work (see below). Cinderella157 (talk) 03:40, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

It seems as if the burden of proof is routinely reversed. If a source is dubious because its author, its publisher or both have a reputation for historical distortions and a certain bias (e.g. heroication), I consider it unreasonable to be asked for sources which question specific dubious claims couched in flowery language and traced to those source. Exceptional claims require multiple high-quality sources, not just some. The whole situation becomes Kafkaesque, when any attempt to demonstrate how exceptional certain claims are, is struck down as "original research" with reference to WP:SYNTH. If there is only one source making a certain claim that does not necessarily imply that it is uncontroversial, it might just mean that this claim is exceptional or even plain wrong.--Assayer (talk) 10:03, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

You refer to the irony of WP with respect to truth or fact vs verifiability but I also think that you miss the mark if you refer to "flowery language" such as the distinction between: "The Knight's Cross of the Iron Cross, with its higher grade Oak Leaves, was awarded to recognise exceptional battlefield bravery or military leadership." vs "extremely brave German former Luftwaffe fighter ace who exhibited exceptional military leadership". I have struck issues myself but have had to work through them. But, just what are "exceptional claims", why are they just "plain wrong" or controversial? Why? Is this just a POV or can it be substantiated? Perhaps this is the conundrum of WP (it does not allow original research or synthesis) or perhaps this is (politely) just your POV. Cinderella157 (talk) 11:41, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

You are missing that I referred to WP:FLOWERY according to which peacock terms are to be avoided anyway. That's a question of language and style, not "fact vs. verifiability". Furthermore, I would rather say that I refer to the bad habit of Wikipedians to use sources indiscriminately, without proper evaluation, while ignoring their weight in historical discourse. Take, for example, how Wikipedia suggests at considerable length and with intricate detail, that Jochen Marseille was "openly anti-Nazi", despite the MGFA have found no evidence for that. Much of the "evidence" in Hans-Joachim Marseille#Marseille and Nazism is based upon a "popular" source. Among other things that source claims that Marseille had been asked to join the Nazi party, but declined. The problem with this is, that until late 1944 no soldier of the Wehrmacht was allowed to join the Nazi party anyway. For a more detailed discussion and more issues see Talk:Hans-Joachim Marseille#Marseille and Nazism. Is there any literature which specifically challenges those claims made by that specific source? No, it seems as if that bio has been ignored by historians. So while Wikipedia guidelines specify that sources are to be weighed for their reliability and that authoritativeness of a source should be demonstrable to other people, it has become a habit to assume reliabilty until proven otherwise. This becomes more effective, the more obscure the source is. This is not much of a conundrum, but a travesty of the guidelines.--Assayer (talk) 17:53, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Erich Hartmann

The article is largely sourced to The Blond Knight of Germany (1970) by the authors Trevor J. Constable & Raymond F. Toliver (40+ citations). This book has been reviewed by both German and American and historians and received an unfavourable assessment, which can be viewed here: Talk:Erich_Hartmann#Tags.

The article originally passed GA in 2008. If this article were reviewed today, would it pass? It seems that the criteria re: sourcing and reliability has been significantly tightened. I would appreciate feedback specific to this article. K.e.coffman (talk) 02:08, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

The critical analysis of the source you have provided criticises Constable and Toliver for inconsistencies in their analysis of statistics, it lacks an analysis the political and social consequences of the Second World War and a bias with respect to the Soviet Union and communism that has been attributed to cold war attitudes. If undue weight is not given to analysis opinion or conclusion that have been questioned, then it is not unreasonable to use material from the source IMHO. Cinderella157 (talk) 03:31, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

You refer to reviews by American and German historians and yet the link leads to a review by a German historian. If you are referring to The Myth of the Eastern Front, it too has mixed reviews (ie negative too) and by your criteria is therefore not a reliable source that can be used to establish that another source is not a reliable source? Cinderella157 (talk) 03:53, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Whether a source is reliable or not depends heavily on what it is being used for. Since I haven't read The Blond Knight of Germany and it's probably been 50 years since I read The First and the Last, let me illustrate from a type of source I've used in the past and received some flak for, unit histories prepared shortly after the end of World War II by members of the unit for members of the unit. Would I use that source for a claim that only one other group in the AAF shot down more German airplanes. No, even if the claim were true, there are sources higher up the heirorarchy of sources that provide this information. Would I use it for analysis (as opposed for statements of fact)? Again, no. Would I use it for a statement that the unit had moved to Carentan on 9 July 1944 (when the recognized historical sources merely say that it moved to the Continent shortly after D-Day)? Absolutely. Perhaps I digress too much, but my point is that works aren't unreliable per se. The material being used and the context in which it is used determines the reliabilty (along with the availability of mopre scholarly articles on the same subject). Deleting material solely because a source is "blanket unreliable" appears to me to be contrary to Wikipedia's guidelines. --Lineagegeek (talk) 23:29, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure that this discussion should be conducted here, as it is disconnected from the article which has been tagged. Having said that, in this case, the aspects of the Constable and Toliver book that have been criticised by reviewers (analysis of statistics, and discussion of the political and social consequences of WWII) should be avoided or only be used with care, attributed in-text and by noting the criticisms made. However, having been criticised for some aspects doesn't make a source entirely unreliable. Most books have their critics, including, as has been pointed out, Smelser and Davies book. I agree with Lineagegeek that uncriticised elements of the book can be used freely, especially for unexceptional information about Hartmann's career. For example, all of the information cited to Constable and Toliver in the Early life and career section is entirely unexceptional, and it is fine to use it for that material. It is also at an appropriate level of detail for a comprehensive biographical article. I have not gone through the rest of the article to check, but I daresay most of if not all of the rest of the citations to Constable and Toliver are also fine, as there doesn't appear to be any analysis of statistics or discussion of the political and social consequences of WWII that has been cited to Constable and Toliver. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 04:55, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Let me still raise the question: How can Wikipedians determine the reliability of certain statements taken from sources which are problematic for certain reasons? For example, Waffen-SS general and cofounder of the revisionist HIAG Otto Kumm has written a history of its own unit. It is of course not wholly factually inaccurate and has been used by historians as a source. But it also follows a certain narrative and uses frequent euphemisms and distortions, e.g., that the division killed only "Partisans". It is by now a well established fact that the Germans counted civilian victims as "Partisans", too, so because of that context Kumm's number of killed "Partisans" is unreliable. How many Wikipedians do know that? Let's return to the Tolliver/Constable book. The critical analysis of their work is by a German historian who presented it at a conference. It's original research and he has certainly put some effort into it. How can we expect Wikipedians, who cannot turn to original research, to tell what material from Tolliver/Constable or others is fine to use?--Assayer (talk) 09:01, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

On that basis, let's turn to Smelser and Davies. Their work has also been negatively reviewed in academic publications. How are Wikipedians to know what of their book is reliable or not? And I'll bite regarding Kumm's estimates of enemy casualties, because I actually know the academic sources. Immediately after WWII, the Yugoslav government claimed that 1.7 million Yugoslavs were killed during the war. This claim was developed by a lowly statistician to conform to a claim already publicly made by the Yugoslav Partisan hierarchy. It is well established that this was basically made up. Academic estimates since then have agreed on a figure of a tick over 1 million at the high end. So the Yugoslav government overestimated the number of dead citizens of their own country by 700,000. With no evidence to back it up. Not a few here and there, 700,000. They overestimated the human cost of the war in Yugoslavia over a four year period by 70%, for political purposes. Partisan sources are full of outlandish estimates of German casualties in individual engagements. You claim Kumm's estimates of Partisan casualties in Yugoslavia are inaccurate. On what reliable sources are you depending? Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:23, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree that the critical element to determining reliability is in how the sources is used: documentation of statement of fact, or documentation of analysis. And of course it's all contextual. The best questions to ask are (1) how is the source used; (2) what reliance does the article make on the source; (3) if the source is used as analysis, how reliable is the author; and (4) if the source used is analysis, is it given appropriate weight given period, other historiography, author, and a variety of factors. We try to be fair, although certainly fairness is in the eye of the beholder. It would be possible, for example, to make a "note" on Partisans to explain that Germans usually termed many civilian victims as such. Partisans would likely phrase it differently, and claim that many killed were civilians. And the Yugoslav government would certainly want their own figures to reflect high losses. auntieruth (talk) 13:53, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

@Peacemaker67: I find it troubling that you suggest to treat the work of Otto Kumm on par with the work of Smelser/Davies. But maybe it is this attitude of mixing up historical scholarship (defined by the authors' academic training, academic or scholarly presses, peer review and so forth) with opinion pieces and non reviewed popular works, even primary sources, which is at the heart of the problem. Besides, looking at how their work is used at Franz Kurowski, e.g., I find it mostly used as a source of opinion, which is a different matter. I also find it troubling to argue that simply because Partisan sources are full of outlandish estimates of German casualties in individual engagements (which is true, and I have argued that years ago at Talk:Battle of Drashovica - in vain) it is reasonable to assume that Kumm's estimate is accurate, if that's what you are saying. That's a false analogy. Concerning Kumm I have presented my evidence at Talk:Artur Phleps#Roland Kaltenegger and Otto Kumm. So how do you sort out accurate and inaccurate details?

The points outlined by auntieruth seem fair. However, that's more of an historian's approach, whereas Wikipedia works differently, e.g., you cannot turn to original research to verify dubious or exceptional claims. (Thus I would even argue that it is more difficult to write Wikipedia than a scholarly piece.) Once a source has been demonstrated to be problematic, its claims should be taken with a grain of salt, instead of still presuming reliabilty in general and detail --Assayer (talk) 14:17, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure someone is turning to original research to verify material. Or, from the other perspective, scholarly work/academic research is, fundamentally, original research. Using a work to provide facts, not interpretation, is one thing and I suggest that some of the examples used above are a good example: a source is not unreliable per se, as Assayer (talk · contribs) maintains. It depends on how it is being used. auntieruth (talk) 16:09, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

To be clear, I maintained that sources are not "reliable" per se and I am arguing that sources with known bias and a reputation for distortion should be used less freely and with much more caution, since, for several reasons, it is hard for Wikipedians to distinguish facts from distortions. As I have argued elsewhere, facts or events exist as prelinguistic phenomena, but the way in which they are selected and represented imbues them with a certain meaning and thus their narration is also an interpretation. As Carl L. Becker has noted more than a century ago: "the facts of history do not exist for any historian till he creates them". It is the description, the way facts are rendered, the narration of facts, which matters. To say It depends on how [a source] is being used is a broad and ultimately vague statement to which we all can subscribe. But then let's talk about how sources like Tolliver/Constable are being used.--Assayer (talk) 18:30, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

To be clear, despite your spurious claim, Assayer, I'm not suggesting we treat Kumm the same as Smelser and Davies. I'm pointing out the inherent contradiction in your line of argument. Obviously, sources vary in reliability. Nearly all sources are criticised in some way or another. That doesn't mean they are equivalent, and I have not suggested that. What I am pointing out is that there is bias and lack of objectivity in most if not all sources, and that what a source is being used for has a direct impact on whether it is appropriate or not. Using Kumm for information about what operations his division undertook, when and where, is completely different from using Kumm's analysis of his division's performance or his musings on how unfair it was for his heroic and tough division to be accused of war crimes. No source is perfect, they are written by humans. And, why you keep harking back to Kurowski I have no idea, I thought we were talking about Constable and Toliver here. But in a more general sense, I think Ruth's questions (above) are a good basis for further discussion. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:51, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

I would note what appear to be some misconceptions. Firstly regarding original research. Sources which "are" original research can be used as can the original research contained therein (subject to considerations of weight, POV and conflict of interest if the author being cited is also the WP editor citing their own work). A WP editor cannot write an article such that the article is the first report of some original research (as opposed to being published somewhere else). There is also the matter of using primary sources. It is acceptable to use these for facts but not for analysis or opinion - much as Lineagegeek refers to using unit histories above. If I can summarise, there appears that the proponents (Assayer and K.e.coffman) wish to discredit sources as being "less than reliable" for various reasons. Having argued that a source is of diminished credibility they then posture that the source cannot be used "at all" in WP articles and that any text that relies upon the sources must be removed. This is a position of absolutes. On the otherhand, not all editors agree that sources tagged by the proponents are unreliable. But, more importantly, they see that a lack of reliability in one or more areas does not make the source unreliable across the board. As Peacemaker67 points out, most works will receive some degree of negative criticism and no source is perfect. As such, material may be used, balancing how and why it has been criticised with what material is used and how it is presented. This is not a matter of absolutes but degrees. Furthermore, it appears to represent a consensus? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Cinderella157 (talk • contribs) 03:49, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Hermann Graf

Much of the subject's war-time career is cited to:

• Jochim, Berthold K (1998). Oberst Hermann Graf 200 Luftsiege in 13 Monaten Ein Jagdfliegerleben. Rastatt, Germany: VPM Verlagsunion Pabel Moewig. ISBN 3-8118-1455-9.

Berthold K. Jochim is a pen name of Franz Kurowski, a known fabulist. He reserved his own name for "more serious work" and used his pseudonyms for largely semi-fictional accounts. Specific to the book in question, an editor, who is familiar with the source, noted: I own the 1998 version and I think it more or less a piece of s***. Quoted from: [7].

I was not surprised at this assessment as the source was issued by Verlag Pabel Moewig, the publisher behind Der Landser. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:52, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Hans-Joachim Marseille

This article has been promoted to GA status in 2008. There are multiple discussions on the Talk page about the article such as Unreliable sources tag, Overly detailed article, Marseille and Nazism, and Length of article.

The page contains 38 citations to Wubbe, which has been published in the extremist publisher Verlag Siegfried Bublies:

• Wübbe, Walter (2001). Hauptmann Hans Joachim Marseille— Ein Jagdfliegerschicksal in Daten, Bildern und Dokumenten. Schnellbach, Germany: Verlag Siegfried Bublies. ISBN 978-3-926584-78-6. {{cite book}}: Invalid |ref=harv (help); Unknown parameter |trans_title= ignored (|trans-title= suggested) (help)

On Wubbe, here's input from an editor familiar with this work: "The book is 20% text and 80% pictures and copies of the original documents plus newspaper clippings." (Quoted from this post). I.e. it's about 80% primary material, including unreliable war-time propaganda, and 20% commentary, also potentially unreliable given the slant of the publisher. Separately, even with the recent reductions, the article is still 130K Bytes. If it were nominated today, I would believe it would have been quick failed on the length alone.

@WP:MILHIST coordinators: Would this article be a suitable candidate for an individual reassessment? K.e.coffman (talk) 00:04, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

summary

I don't see the point in adding additional articles to the process. We should have enough information to develop a consensus here. Cinderella157 has tried to sum up the discussion thus far, and I'm signing each paragraph so that it it clear who posted it when it gets broken up for discussion: auntieruth (talk) 15:51, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

• Sources which are original research can be used, as can the original research contained therein (subject to considerations of weight, POV and conflict of interest if the author being cited is also the WP editor citing their own work).auntieruth (talk) 15:51, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Sub argument of this: The WP article should not be the first instance of use of someone's original research. It should be published somewhere else; theses, dissertations, habilitations, and equivalents would probably be an exception since these are de facto and de jure peer reviewed; they are available online, etc.auntieruth (talk) 15:51, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
• There is also the matter of using primary sources. These are reliable for facts but not for analysis or opinion. Examples would probably be unit histories, per Lineagegeek.auntieruth (talk) 15:51, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
• As part of the larger disagreement, most works will receive some degree of negative criticism and no source is perfect.
  • Challenge: (Assayer and K.e.coffman) wish to discredit sources as being "less than reliable" for various reasons. Having argued that a source is of diminished credibility they then posture that the source cannot be used "at all" in WP articles and that any text that relies upon the sources must be removed. As Cinderella157 says, this is a position of absolutes. auntieruth (talk) 15:51, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
  • Counter argument: Cinderella157 summarizes another side of the argument thus: ...not all editors agree that sources tagged by the proponents are unreliable. But, more importantly, they see that a lack of reliability in one or more areas does not make the source unreliable across the board. As Peacemaker67 points out, [and with which Auntieruth55 agrees] most works will receive some degree of negative criticism and no source is perfect. Consequently, they propose that such material may be used, balancing how and why it has been criticised with what material is used and how it is presented. As Cinderella157 summarizes, This is not a matter of absolutes but of degrees. In other words, material may be used to cite facts but not necessarily for analysis and opinion. auntieruth (talk) 15:51, 15 June 2017 (UTC)
• Do we agree on this so far?

Reassessment candidates?

Thank you for the continued discussion. My goal for it is to see if some of the articles on the list could be uncontroversially reassessed via an individual reassessment. @WP:MILHIST coordinators: & anyone who is interested, are there any on the list that you would consider suitable candidates for an individual reassessment?

I added Hermann Graf above and could add a couple more, if this would be productive. K.e.coffman (talk) 03:52, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

I think leave it at three here until we get a resolution on them. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 01:54, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes I agree with PM here, lets leave it at the three here so far. (To be honest given how detailed these discussions are I'd say even one at a time would be preferable, especially if the aim is to encourage non-involved editors to participate as it is pretty difficult to follow already, at least to me). Anotherclown (talk) 10:55, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

Soliciting comments on Russo-Georgian War

I have started a RfC [8] on a certain contentious statement in this article, please help resolve the dispute. I should say that the article is under discretionary sanctions - edit carefully! Banedon (talk) 00:57, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

The African parts of Europe

There´s an article called German-occupied Europe, and it has a map with some bits I think of as south of Europe, and an editor recently added a bit about Tunisia [9]. My question is, is this ok because duh, France, or does sources generally discuss German-occupied Europe without Africa? Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:12, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Given the existence of colonial empires at the time, it seems a bit artificial to entirely ignore the status of France's north African holdings here. Nick-D (talk) 08:26, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Algeria was legally part of metropolitan France.Slatersteven (talk) 13:18, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Metropolitan France? Anyway, fair enough, I guess. Thanks for your replies! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 14:06, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, at the time, Algeria was part of Metropolitan France. Parsecboy (talk) 15:08, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

@Slatersteven and Parsecboy: Yes, the French Constitution of 1848 declared Algeria and the colonies to be French territory (article 109). It didn't name the colonies, but ... if Algeria comes within Europe for this purpose, how far does "Europe" extend? French Guiana? Réunion? — Stanning (talk) 16:02, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Live and learn! Thanks! Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 16:06, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Certainly as far as official usage goes, "Europe" includes all those outliers like St Pierre & Miquelon and Tahiti. (Look closely at the map on a Euro banknote; those apparently-random blobs in the lower left corner of the map of Europe are actually Reunion, Guadeloupe etc). Where the "Metropolitan France is part of Europe" legal fiction is important in a military context is that from 1942 onwards, the allied presence in North Africa meant that De Gaulle could claim that France was a disputed territory with some parts under the control of Vichy and some parts under the control of Free France, as opposed to an Axis-aligned country which happened to have some of its more distant colonies under rebel control. ‑ Iridescent 22:51, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

Whoa! Historical context understood, but let's not confuse the EU with Europe! Europe is a geographical entity. Those French colonies are on the euro banknotes because they're within the EU (the French continue to insist that they're France d'outre-mer, not only because of that historical context but also for modern geopolitical reasons), not because they're geographically in Europe!
Similarly, the Spanish enclaves of Ceuta and Melilla are within the EU (also for historical and geopolitical reasons), but they're in Africa, not Europe. — Stanning (talk) 08:41, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

You can't neatly separate geography from politics in this context IMO. It seems appropriate for this article's focus to be on Europe, but the fact that the Nazis were also occupying bits of France in Africa is clearly relevant. Nick-D (talk) 11:31, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Also the "European plate" does contain a small sliver of (what would have been) french North Africa. So how do we define "Europe"?Slatersteven (talk) 16:02, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

I've always understood la Métropole to be equivalent to l'Hexagone (plus Corsica). Algeria was a part of France, but not part of the Métropole. It was administered like Metropolitan France (in departments), however, and not like a colony. Also, I don't think it is correct to say that Germany ever occupied any part of Africa. For one, all German troops in Africa were under Italian command. And even in the case of Tunisia, the Axis left the French and beylical administration in place. That there were German and Italian troops in Tunisia does not equal occupation. Srnec (talk) 19:36, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi, I am watching this page re: adding a sentence, perhaps a note or footnote, about this to the article. There are sources re: six month Tunisia occupation in this query.–CaroleHenson (talk) 19:50, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

History of the Jews in Tunisia#World War II is also relevant here. Nick-D (talk) 23:09, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Not looking at sources here, but wasn't only part of Algeria organized into departments and, therefore, part of Metropolitan France? (the coastal portions, but not the interior), Regardless, if the subject is Europe, the fact that politically, part of Africa was an element of a state mostly located in Europe, seems not relevant. --Lineagegeek (talk) 23:47, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

"North Africa was an integral part of Vichy France" (Yad Vashem)

It is a real pleasure to read the comments by so many knowledgeable editors!

I checked "Europe" in Wiki (I don't remember if it was French or English Wiki), and it was correctly written, that Europe extended in the 19th century by acquiring new possessions in North Africa - there is a distinction between Africa and Europe being continents, thus geographical entities (and North Africa being also a geographical concept) and Europe in a political sense, is made of the European nations and their overseas territories.

I read that 1. "France, the French Republic" was the only imperial nation to implement its legislation in its overseas territories and extensively spread French civilization there. A French Article IV (I think) of 1943: North African common land of Europe." 2. "France is a transcontinental country." - even today.

De Gaulle used "continental France" to distinguish it from "France d'Outre-Mer" (overseas), and when the Nazi regime occupied all of France in November 1942, Alger in Algeria became the French capital. EHRI in its Holocaust website writes: Europe (and its colonies).

French Algeria, until 1961, was divided into departments, and the numbers there followed the ones in the Metropole or mainland France: 91, 92, 93, 94.

In the Tunisian archives for 1939-1945, it's written: "Vichy-Tunisia". French Holocaust historian Renée Poznanski used "Vichy metropolitan" to distinguish it from Vichy North Africa. That's the way do it, when one is narrating political history of Europe, and the Holocaust was a political process evolving in imperial Europe - "Europe including the colonies". Vichy implemented all its anti-Jewish measured in Vichy North Africa, which was under its rule as per the Franco-German armistice of June 1940.

French North African was called "extension de la France" and "prolongement de l'Europe" - in political term, and not geographical/continental one

I just woke up and reading your intelligent comments made my day!

Have a wonderful day!Henia Perlman (talk) 14:08, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Henia, thanks. Certainly there are transcontinental countries, including France of course. Turkey and Russia are obvious examples; the Netherlands is transcontinental in much the same way as France, having some islands in the Caribbean; and there are many other examples, depending on how you define a continent. And as Nick-D correctly said, you can't neatly separate geography from politics when discussing history.

The point that I want to make is a semantic one. Words are often used carelessly. As Bismarck said, Europe is a geographical expression. The EU is not equivalent to Europe (ask the Swiss). It's possible to speak of "European colonies" collectively, but they're colonies of European countries, not of Europe itself. The continent of Europe cannot have colonies and cannot extend outside its geographical area. The 1848 constitution that incorporated Algeria into metropolitan France didn't extend Europe into Africa – it extended France into Africa. Réunion is within transcontinental France, and consequently within the transcontinental EU, but IMHO it's not within Europe in any meaningful way. — Stanning (talk) 15:58, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Help cleaning up two articles?

Hi! I was wondering if anyone could help me clean up Soviet Middle Eastern Foreign Policy during the Cold War and Political movements in China and America during the Cold War, or more specifically help me figure out if these articles need to have their own independent articles. Offhand I think that they very well could, however at the moment they're kind of more essay than Wikipedia article. I'm personally more familiar with Civil War history than I am Cold War, so any help with this would be incredibly appreciated! I'd notified one of the students that they needed to work on the article, but I don't see where they made any big progress on this and since the class is now over, it's sort of my responsibility to figure out what to do with it. I'm debating moving it into my userspace for the time being, but I'm afraid of losing track of it, hence why I wanted to ask here for help. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 19:19, 6 June 2017 (UTC)

• Looking at Political movements in China and America during the Cold War, I'm going to propose it for deletion as an essay since it seems to be more of a comparative essay than an encyclopedia article. That will give anyone here a week to look at it and see if there's anything that can be done. Shalor (Wiki Ed) (talk) 19:21, 6 June 2017 (UTC)
• I think that Soviet Middle Eastern foreign policy during the Cold War doesn't have enough notability/content to justify a WP:SPINOFF content fork from the existing sections on Foreign relations of the Soviet Union#Relations with the Arab states (also the target of the redirect for foreign policy of the Soviet Union), the main Cold War article, and articles on specific Middle Eastern conflicts where the Soviets were involved. Perhaps it may be worth taking it to AfD. Alcherin (talk) 08:22, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
• Soviet Middle Eastern Foreign Policy during the Cold War seems like an anti-Soviet essay trying to pin the current fiasco that is the Middle East on them. I'm trying to do what I can to help it (any work in the article mainspace that's POV gives Wikipedia a bad name) but WP:TNT might be a better option. Topic seems notable enough. -Indy beetle (talk) 18:32, 7 June 2017 (UTC)
• This is the same person above (Shalor) under my main account. Indy beetle or Alcherin, if you think that TNT is a better option, can either of you write out the AfD nomination? I would, but I'm not as savvy with this particular topic and it would be more effective of an AfD rationale if it was written by someone who knew more about what they're talking about. I nominated the other article for AfD since the student contested it, as it was more of an obvious student essay as far as appearances go, so I was more comfortable doing that one. Thanks! Tokyogirl79 (｡◕‿◕｡) 06:55, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Ia gree that there is no real substance to Political movements in China and America during the Cold War -- it does not hang together and does not represent the main RS. delete it. Rjensen (talk) 07:00, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

A-Class review for 15th Tank Corps needs attention

15th Tank Corps needs just a few more editors to complete its A-Class review. Please help review the article. Thanks in advance, Kges1901 (talk) 11:25, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Poor quality of Ugandan Bush War

This article has been seriously poor for a very long time. I made a number of improvementa, only to be stonewalled by a few editors who resist change and are exercising ownership. Have a look. 2605:6000:EF43:8500:2C88:F1C:B1C0:1CB1 (talk) 01:31, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

@2605:6000:EF43:8500:2C88:F1C:B1C0:1CB1: Hi, thanks so much for contributing! Because you had made multiple edits and there had been multiple reversions, both by yourself and other editors, I went through yours starting with the first edit you made after my last one.

Revision as of 06:47 7 June 2017: I reverted this edit. Your phrase "Museveni believed that his defeat in the 1979 elections was caused by fraud." as opposed to "After his defeat in what he called fradulent elections..." describes Museveni's beliefs, as opposed to his actions/words.

I then took some time to look at your further edits and incorporated all of them into this edit. You then reverted it with the comment "you cannot be serious in thinking this is a better version of the article". I'd like to point out that this version included all of your changes except the above. Later, you called it "pathetic".

While I appreciate your passion, I, and I think most editors, respond better to constructive comments regarding their edits as opposed to mean ones. :-)

Regards WP:OWN, I visited this article for the first time by clicking the Random Page link. Prior to my edits in the last 24 hours, I have never visited or contributed here. Informata ob Iniquitatum (talk) 02:33, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

No, you didn't. Not even close. Which is why the article remained pathetic. I am correcting and improving it and inviting project members to see the numerous improvements. 2605:6000:EF43:8500:2495:1C68:1484:2E8C (talk) 05:07, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Army awards

(U.S.) Army Regulation 600-8-22 has moved on the web; now at: [10] --Georgia Army Vet Contribs Talk 02:26, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Input needed at Wikipedia:Featured_article_review#Western_Front_.28World_War_I.29

The FA status of Western Front (World War I) is under Review at Wikipedia:Featured_article_review#Western_Front_.28World_War_I.29. Last-minute improvements that save it would be good, or otherwise listing its shortcomings and noting whether it should be kept or delisted. FAR is very quiet...Cas Liber (talk · contribs) 10:20, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

@WP:MILHIST coordinators: This needs attention by people with WWI sources to fix these missing citations. auntieruth (talk) 19:08, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

G'day, I've added a few citations where I could find them, but my library is pretty sparse when it comes to general World War I stuff. Still quite a few citation needed tags if anyone else has time and the resources, anything would be greatly appreciated. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 01:19, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Unfortunately I was only to get one at this stage. There are still about 13 cn tags left if anyone else is able to help. Thanks. Anotherclown (talk) 23:48, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Looking To Nix A Redirect

I'd like to put some work into the Formosa Air Battle page, but before I get started I noticed that there's a redirect to the page called Aerial Battle of Taiwan-Okinawa. Is there a way to propose removing this redirect? That title is rarely (if ever) given in credible English language sources and such a title only leads to confusion, since this action has almost nothing to do with Okinawa. The page should focus on 12–16 October and the battle's relation to the Battle of Leyte Gulf. It needs a lot of TLC but this would be a good first step. Cheers, Finktron (talk) 11:09, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Good luck in the course of your research ! Sagecandor (talk) 11:10, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

WP:RFD is where redirects are discussed. Mjroots (talk) 19:24, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

A Request for comment has been made on the Battle for Caen talk page

Editorial POV-pushing, despite attempts by to persuade an editor to acknowledge the difference between an article conforming to the title and a Montgomery-bashing exercise.

Other recent editors being notified. Keith-264 (talk) 13:20, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

 DoneKeith-264 (talk) 17:01, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Defeating ISIS by Malcolm Nance

Defeating ISIS by Malcolm Nance.

New article I wrote on the book Defeating ISIS: Who They Are, How They Fight, What They Believe.

Might be of use as a reference work for people of this WikiProject to use on related articles.

Enjoy ! Sagecandor (talk) 21:15, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

This is now a nomination for good article. Sagecandor (talk) 21:40, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Mmm... Simultaneous nominations for good article and deletion. One to tread carefully around Monstrelet (talk) 10:10, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, Monstrelet, that is because, unfortunately, I am being the subject of WP:WIKIHOUNDING. See comments by admin to the nominator at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Defeating ISIS. Sagecandor (talk) 16:56, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

The deletion discussion has since been closed. Sagecandor (talk) 18:10, 13 June 2017 (UTC)

Coalhouse Fort

A Featured Article Candidate review is currently open for Coalhouse Fort - see Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Coalhouse Fort/archive1‎. It hasn't had many participants so far, so if anyone else wishes to contribute please feel free to do so. Prioryman (talk) 21:39, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

The Bugle: Issue CXXXIV, June 2017

Your Military History Newsletter Project news: From the editors; awards and honours; contest results Articles: Last month's new featured and A-class content Book review: Hawkeye7 looks at the Battle of Kokoda and US defence acquisition in the 1960s Op-ed: Hawkeye7 on the Battle of Messines Timeline: This month in World War I

The Bugle is published by the Military history WikiProject. To receive it on your talk page, please join the project or sign up here.
If you are a project member who does not want delivery, please remove your name from this page. Your editors, Ian Rose (talk) and Nick-D (talk) 12:52, 8 June 2017 (UTC)

Translated pages

I'm interested in creating a page based on the subject coverage in French wikipedia. This seems common enough technique but is there a particular process I should be using or guidelines I should be reading? Monstrelet (talk) 15:25, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

WP:RFT for guidance perhaps? — Marcus^(talk) 17:05, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks. After a little research, I see there is a beta translation bot. However, it is either not working or has been disabled (it only seems to be able to translate categories at the moment). Looks like I'll have to do it manually. Monstrelet (talk) 17:49, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Done. Battle of Hausbergen. Monstrelet (talk) 11:24, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Copy-edited it for you. There are some phrases in the wording that don't make sense though.

• "stating his intention to re-establish in all their rigor his temporal rights as" – what does "in all their rigor" mean?
• "was confirmed on 21 April 1263 the complete independence of the Council" – should "the complete independence" be "independently"?

Probably needs a few tweaks to make the wording flow a bit better in places, but generally makes sense. — Marcus^(talk) 13:02, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks again. I've tweaked to try to improve sense. BTW, does anyone know if wikimarkup has a search-and-replace. I'd like to standardise the spelling of Strasbourg. Monstrelet (talk) 15:02, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Find and replace? Do you mean to change all the "Strasburg"s to "Strasbourg" in one go? wikEd can do that. — Marcus^(talk) 15:28, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

And done. Thanks all round. Monstrelet (talk) 16:08, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

@Monstrelet: Perhaps just create a redirect page for Strasburg to direct to Strasbourg? Otherwise, you'll have to run the bot every month to pick up the stuff that is made in the meantime. Strasburg may be spelled Strasbourg now, but it wasn't always, and most of us will use the source's spelling, or the contemporary, but possibly not current, spelling. If I'm using a German source, and writing about Strasburg in 1880, I'm going to spell it Strasburg, becasuse it's a source thing. I might remember but probably not. auntieruth (talk) 19:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

I have to agree, that standardising place names isn't always best. When I write Napoleonic articles I tend to stick with names contemporary to the era, as do a lot of historians in the books I read. I also use some of the popular foreign terms and put the English translation on the first use. I think it helps readers get a "feel" for the period, rather than dragging everything into the modern age and Anglicising, because I see that as an unnecessary cultural bias, which historical articles should try to avoid. However, it is the choice of the article creator what they prefer, but it might not stick since it isn't a MOS requirement that I'm aware of. — Marcus^(talk) 20:34, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Yup—English has no consistency in whether place names are given in their modern English, historic English, current local or historic local names, and we shouldn't make any attempt to try. (I guarantee you that to 99% of readers, a mention of Oświęcim, Volgograd or Slavkov u Brna will just get a blank stare but they'll be immediately familiar with Auschwitz, Stalingrad and Austerlitz.) Likewise, it would look ridiculous to say that "in 324 AD the capital of the Roman Empire moved from Rome to Istanbul", but one could easily say "Constantine was born in York" even though Eboracum didn't receive that name until about a thousand years later. ‑ Iridescent 21:51, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

I've been impressed by your support on this MILHIST members, so thanks. When editing the article I just wanted consistency of all the spellings. I stuck with the current name on a common usage rationale. The German is Straßburg so Strasburg is in between modern usages anyway. Likewise, I went with the French Alsace rather than the German Elsass, because it is the normal English usage.Monstrelet (talk) 08:18, 11 June 2017 (UTC)\

It is important to be consistent within the article, first. So if you're editing an article that uses British English, spells it Elsass instead of Alsace, etc., be consistent. English-Australian-US-Canadian usages should be preserved unless you are completely overhauling the article. But within the article, Alsace/Elsass should be consistent, Strasburg/Strasbourg should be consistent. Etc. To make this consistent wiki-wide would be a fool's errand. auntieruth (talk) 15:59, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Can't disagree with you there, as this is what I have set out to do. I have no intention to try to make anything consistent wikiwide but consistency of spelling within a single article is a style basic.Monstrelet (talk) 17:19, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

The Terrorists of Iraq about the Iraqi insurgency

The Terrorists of Iraq about the Iraqi insurgency.

New article I wrote and created on the book The Terrorists of Iraq.

Could be useful reference work for other articles on the topic. Sagecandor (talk) 16:57, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

List of conflicts and wars fought with firearms

Just came across this category tree Category:List of conflicts and wars fought with firearms which has a list of conflicts that each firearm has been used including List of conflicts and wars fought with Kalashnikov rifles and others. Not my area but I cant see any encyclopedic value in these lists. MilborneOne (talk) 21:06, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

• Perhaps you should include the original creators of said articles. Tagging @Rizuan: and @RAF910: ...GELongstreet (talk) 21:17, 9 June 2017 (UTC)
• First, Wiki has countless similar list type article pages. Second, these articles were created as companion pages to their main articles. As the list on said pages was getting out of hand. Third, these articles also act as a central repository of information for that type of firearm.--RAF910 (talk) 14:27, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

I generally agree with MilbourneOne, in that the lists don't hold much value as they stand. When it comes to having a "central repository" we tend to use categories, which are not referenced but lead to articles that are usually cited (if not we have the Template:Category unsourced tag) – which is why plain lists with no added information don't always work. Wiki may have silimar lists but we review concerns case-by-case, so WP:Others isn't always a valid argument. The problem with this list is that is claims a specific weapon was used in X, Y and Z conflicts but largely goes uncited. We have to take each claim at face value which is not encyclopedic. Question is, with each list being so extensive, who is willing to reference each conflict? — Marcus^(talk) 14:44, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• No, the Question is, if these "extensive" lists that were overwhelming the main articles are restored to those articles, who is going to police the main articles to ensure that only properly referenced notable conflicts are included? These pages were created to solve the same (too much information) problem that every experience editor has been forced to deal with. It's better that this information remain isolated on their own pages--RAF910 (talk) 16:20, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't get "policed", that would be paramount to WP:OWNing them. It would be the responsiblilty of anyone creating and populating categories to only include those which are properly referenced and not rely on others to "police" them. When you commit yourself to a task like that it should either be done right or not at all. No one said the lists had to be restored to articles either, but I did suggest that the various types of guns might be listed in categories, instead. I'm not a deletionist, generally, but if another editor put these as AfD I'd probably support it, mostly because a list as extensive as these without references is unreliable. Anyone could add or remove conflicts to guns unchallenged, and that makes the lists unstable. Who "polices" the lists after each edit to verify changes? Your reasoning, though understandable considering the length of the lists, is disingenous with regards to how they are managed. Categories are more functional, link to referenced articles, and it's less likely that Anon IPs (in good faith or vandals) will change them, since lists are more tempting. Also, categories are self-sorting, they need little administration, whereas List of conflicts and wars fought with Kalashnikov rifles is a mess: the guns are not properly listed alphabetically, and the conflicts are not in any apparent logical order at all because the conflicts don't include year start–end dates. They are next to useless, unless someone uses their browser text search function. Sorry, but these lists are just lazily done, article titles copy/pasted into sloppy lists without extensive research, and they don't convey the content in a clear fashion. There's more to criticise than praise, I'm afraid. If this was a page in a military book I'd send it back to the publisher for a refund. Here is an example of a list article which, though not perfect, has been created so that the entries are clearly in order: List of conflicts in Europe. — Marcus^(talk) 16:59, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• OK...lets be blunt. These list pages were created as TROLL BAIT to protect the main pages, from exactly what your complaining about here. --RAF910 (talk) 17:19, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Trolls aren't going to go round hundreds of conflict articles adding/removing the types of guns used. Wikipedia doesn't need "troll bait" articles, it's an encyclopedia, not a honey pot. We have admins, page protection and blocks for handling trolls, not decoy articles that don't meet standards. But MilborneOne has a good reason to consider AfD now, you just handed it to him. — Marcus^(talk) 17:36, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

• As I see this, you can fix the page (reformat, add references, etc.) or you can delete it. I'm sure your fellow editors will appreciate the added workload. Thank you very much.--RAF910 (talk) 17:57, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

There's WP:NORUSH and WP:NOTIMELIMIT. — Marcus^(talk) 18:22, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

These articles should be deleted: the use of various kinds of guns in wars is not a notable way of classifying these conflicts. Nick-D (talk) 23:20, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

From my experience, vandals know how to locate the specific weapon and conflict articles anyway. Loads of weapons and conflict articles are targetted on a daily basis. These lists do not seemed to have done their job as a decoy. As a group of pages they are not adding to the encylopedia. Delete. An interesting idea, but it hasn't worked. Irondome (talk) 23:45, 10 June 2017 (UTC)

Hi everyone, thanks for contributing! I could use some clarification.

• @MilborneOne:: When you say you can't see any "encyclopedic value" are you proposing the deletion of all the list pages or just the category? Can you be more specific, also about why you see these as lacking in comparison with other list pages or categories?
• @RAF910: & @Irondome:: Can you tell me what you mean by "Troll bait" or "decoy"? And why do you think these articles are "overwhelming the main articles"?
• @Nick-D:: I don't think I agree. I think that wars and the small arms that were used by the combatants are closely associated with one another.

Thanks again :-) Informata ob Iniquitatum (talk) 00:35, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I cannot speak for RAF910 but the colleagues idea appears to have been to use these lists to protect articles by attracting vandal attention to them instead of the core articles. So they appear to have been envisaged as decoys. This is my understanding of the situation. I did not say anything about the lists 'overwhelming the main articles' as I was not even aware of them until the subject was brought up here, so I am unsure what you mean by that. Irondome (talk) 00:50, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

@Irondome:: Thanks for your response! I guess I will await further clarification from the others. :-) Informata ob Iniquitatum (talk) 01:44, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Given that even small wars typically involve large numbers of different firearms, and the main models of firearms end up being used in large numbers of wars, the two concepts can't be meaningfully grouped as is being attempted here. Nick-D (talk) 08:35, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

I agree with this sentiment. A conflict can be notable. A gun can be notable. But when is a gun notable to a specific conflict? There are very few exceptions; something like the Baker Rifle might pass the test, but many, like the AK-47 or Winchester Rifle, have been used in everything from wars, to terrorism to bank robberies worldwide – the gun itself is notable, a list of its uses in history, less so. For readers to have to cross-reference from an article about a weapon, to a poorly-presented list, to a conflict, is somewhat cumbersome. That method tends to only work with TV series' that go from the main article to an episode list to articles on notable episodes, because episode lists are built around a template and generally provide a lot of details, not to mention being easily verified via IMDB alone. These weapon lists are just plain lists, without order and substance, they lack detailed referencing or a way of quickly verifying if each conflict attributed to each weapon is correct. Impossible to maintain. — Marcus^(talk) 09:26, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Frankly, this type of list is unencyclopaedic, and they should be deleted. Peacemaker67 (click to talk to me) 10:13, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Just to note my original intention was to send each of these lists to AfD but I was looking for the opinion of others before doing so. Weapons are designed to be used in war and conflict so to list them in this manner is a bit pointless and has no encylopedic value. Marcus makes some good points in his last post about the limited occasions when weapons used could be notable enough to mention in the related article. MilborneOne (talk) 12:14, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

If the lists are deleted following an AfD I think we should look to a new discussion about the Template:infobox weapon with regards to the "wars" parameter. It is optional, but that doesn't mean each and every conflict a specific gun is used in needs to be listed, and as I said earlier, few have notable uses so the "wars" field doesn't represent a NPOV if only a few examples are listed. I'm of mind that we should deprecate "wars" and advise that individual gun usage be summarised within the main body of the article instead especially those with wide usage like the AK-47, etc, because that encourages referencing, whereas many people turn a blind eye to uncited infobox entries. But that's a conversation probably best saved for later, depending how other members feels about the infobox and wheter it is suited to conveying a list of wars. Looking at Brown Bess you can see it easily gets crowded, or M1 Garand which ends with "Numerous other conflicts" which is totally unhelpful. — Marcus^(talk) 14:08, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

OK...Let me explain. When these lists were on the high traffic M16 and AK-47 page they were the subject of almost continuous edit warring, as some users insisted on adding every incident where these rifles were fired in anger (including criminal use). When the lists were removed from those pages and the new list pages were created, the edit warring on the M16 and AK-47 pages came to an end. And, since nobody really cared what happens on these low traffic list pages. The problem was solved. By removing the list pages you will only recreate the problems. If you guys want to delete the list pages, go ahead, you clearly have enough votes to do so. However, while you all shaking hands and patting each other on the back, those of us who watch these pages will have to live with the consequences of your actions. And, please spare me the high moral ground nonsense, we are all experienced editors here. We all know the damage that one highly aggressive editor who refuses to take no for an answer can do, before they get voted off the island. I've said my piece the ball is now in your court. --RAF910 (talk) 15:08, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

If the lists get deleted and trouble starts again on specific pages you can always ask here for a MILHIST admin to review the situation and consider applying WP:pending changes protection for an indefinite period of time. That way, all edits can be monitored and rejected if necessary until enough time passes for the dispute to cool off. All potential bad consequences have solutions. — Marcus^(talk) 17:08, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Yes, and that exactly what was happening until the list pages were created. Again, standing on the high moral ground doesn't solve the problem. My question is, will you personally put your money where your mouth is, and watch the main pages, and guarantee to protect them every time the problem arises?--RAF910 (talk) 17:40, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Wow, cannot wait for the List of AK-47s currently in use article.--Catlemur (talk) 17:47, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Nope, I won't guarantee anything because I'm not an admin, I can't protect them. I don't mind tagging, reverting or questioning bad edits, vandalism or uncited claims, but that's it. But it hardly seems necessary. AK-47 already has 576 watchers. — Marcus^(talk) 18:06, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Delete 'em. These are preposterous. What's next, List of wars using Bedford vehicles? List of wars using Remington ammunition? List of wars using broadhead arrows? And you thought Pokemon pages were crufty.... TREKphiler ^{any time you're ready, Uhura} 00:22, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

I think it's time to move to the AfD stage of getting rid of these useless lists. GraemeLeggett (talk) 11:19, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. Plenty of opinions to go on here, might as well put them to AfD and see what goes. — Marcus^(talk) 23:59, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your comments, Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of conflicts and wars fought with M16 type rifles has been raised MilborneOne (talk) 14:57, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

An End to al-Qaeda book about al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden

An End to al-Qaeda book about al-Qaeda and Osama bin Laden.

New article I wrote about the book An End to al-Qaeda.

May be of interest to WikiProject members for reference work on the topic. Sagecandor (talk) 23:30, 9 June 2017 (UTC)

Naming ships after living people

There is an incorrect but correctly sourced claim on USS Gabrielle Giffords: that it is the 13th US ship since the 1850s named after a living person. In fact it is the 13th US ship named after a living person since the 1969 policy against naming ships after living people, and the 15th or 16th since 1850. I explained this on the talk page with additional details but as the article has no traffic I thought I'd bring it up here where someone is more likely to see it. I'm not sure how best to correct the article. (If there is a more appropriate WikiProject, please direct me.) - CRGreathouse (t | c) 15:21, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

This falls into our special project Operation Majestic Titan. I've updated the article's talk page and added the proper category to the article itself. These editors might be able to help further. @Iazyges: @Parsecboy: @TomStar81: auntieruth (talk) 16:09, 11 June 2017 (UTC)

Nomination of The Plot to Hack America for deletion

A discussion is taking place as to whether the article The Plot to Hack America is suitable for inclusion in Wikipedia according to Wikipedia's policies and guidelines or whether it should be deleted.

The article will be discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Plot to Hack America until a consensus is reached, and anyone is welcome to contribute to the discussion. The nomination will explain the policies and guidelines which are of concern. The discussion focuses on high-quality evidence and our policies and guidelines.

Users may edit the article during the discussion, including to improve the article to address concerns raised in the discussion. However, do not remove the article-for-deletion notice from the top of the article. Sagecandor (talk) 17:40, 12 June 2017 (UTC)

Security contractor listed at Redirects for discussion

An editor has asked for a discussion to address the redirect Security contractor. Please participate in the redirect discussion if you have not already done so. Prisencolin (talk) 19:15, 14 June 2017 (UTC)

Request for participation in informal peer review of Kokoda Track campaign

Please see Talk:Kokoda Track campaign#Where to from now?. This is an important article with respect to Australian military history and the 75th anniversary of same. Your input would be gratefully appreciated. Cinderella157 (talk) 10:26, 15 June 2017 (UTC)