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May 22

How can i get my first car trick my ride

Question moved to the Miscellaneous Reference Desk.

Feminine counties

I just came across the following sentence:

Northumberland's county flower is the Bloody Cranesbill (Geranium sanguineum) and her affiliated Royal Navy ship is her namesake, HMS Northumberland.

Is it customary to attribute the feminine gender to English counties, or is this a Latin/Northumbria thing? Is it customary to do so in encyclopedia articles? It's been there for over a year, but otherwise the article talks about its flag, its landscape, its scenic beauty, its historical significance, and its kilt and tartan. I really stumbled over the her, which is why I'm asking. Thanks. ---Sluzzelin talk 01:51, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's just a matter of personal taste. 'Her' is used for countries, counties, and ships, and all sorts, but equally 'its' is also used. There is no convention here. I, personally, would prefer 'its', but some people may say otherwise.--ChokinBako (talk) 03:33, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think consistency of usage within the article is the paramount consideration. Deor (talk) 04:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That is not actually the question, though, Deor.--ChokinBako (talk) 04:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The OP said that "otherwise the article talks about its flag, its landscape," etc., so I took it that part of the question was whether "her" in the quoted sentence should be changed to "its". Deor (talk) 05:35, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your answers, Givnan and Deor. Apart from consistency, I'm still not sure I understand this usage of her in an encyclopedia. Does feminising a county (or country, where I've certainly seen it more often) suggest an emotional relationship with the referent? ---Sluzzelin talk 09:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"She" is traditionally used instead of "it" for many objects, including ships, cannon, carriages, tools, boats, some cars, and also more abstract things such as the church, cities, countries and so forth. I believe some sources, such as OED, suggest it's come from the French genders. But it's usually applied to things men become passionate about or attached to, so perhaps it's a personification or emotional attachment. Similar concepts are seen in motherland, alma mater, etc. Not encyclopaediac? Check out a few ships, (eg RMS Titanic) Gwinva (talk) 10:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I have never come across a British county being referred to as 'she', though. That looks mighty odd and I personally would have no problem with its being struck out. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 10:21, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(after e.c., and Richard makes me pause again, still this is what I originally intended to post:) Yeah, I even followed the debates on feminising ships on WP. Coming from a German speaker who uses pronouns in three genders, my irritation might not make that much sense either. The ships already made me pause, but when referring to a political and territorial entitity, "her" just made me think "uh oh" and look for peacock words and POV in that sentence (which of course I didn't find). I'll let it go now - I thank the native speakers for their answers and if this doesn't bother anyone else, then I definitely need to recalibrate my false sensitivities. ---Sluzzelin talk 10:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, I promised, but just to expand slightly: I gather that nautical experts do refer to ships in the feminine form (I admit I have almost no knowledge on this), but do geographers or political scientists refer to Northumberland as "she"? Historians might, though I could interpret this usage as either emotional or ironic. ---Sluzzelin talk 10:40, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would say it was very unlikely that they do, but then again I don't belong to either of those groups. Here's the diff, by the way, should you want to take it up with the editor concerned. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 11:03, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Like I said, I would prefer 'its' for counties. 'Her' (or 'she') is not just used for ships, though. I've heard it used for all manner of vehicles that people depend on for a living, even cars.ChokinBako (talk) 13:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is correct for ships, cannon, cars and so forth to use the feminine pronoun in all contexts. In the case of countries (and counties, presumably?) the choice of pronoun differs depending on the context. For example, when speaking of England physically, the preferred choice is "it" (eg "It contains a number of counties"); but speaking abstractly of the nation, one might say "During England's war with France, her people rallied to the cause". (Thus, there is justification for pronoun use to differ within one article.) A similar abstract use is seen in Northumbria example; it refers to the abstract entity, rather than the physical composition. I would suggest it is uncommon usage for counties, but not incorrect. There may be some historical basis; Northumbria was once a kingdom. Gwinva (talk) 02:38, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

While it's acceptable to use the feminine pronoun in this way, I would suggest that this is rather outdated and may be inappropriate in many contents. From Grammatical gender:

The pronoun "she" is sometimes used to refer to things which contain people such as countries, ships, and cars, or to refer to machines. This, however, is considered a stylistically marked, optional figure of speech. This usage is furthermore in decline and advised against by most journalistic style guides such as the Chicago Manual of Style.^[1] Dave w74 (talk) 00:26, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Footnote formatting

Suppose we have a multi-page article with superscript numbers in it that refer the reader to footnotes at the bottom of each page that provide additional information. Now suppose that there is, say, a quotation at the bottom of page 1 that must be sourced, so we add a superscript number after the quotation and indicate the source at the bottom of the page. However, when we do this, the quotation itself is bumped on to page 2 because of the space taken up by the footnote. But this means that the footnote must be moved from page 1 to page 2 (since it must be on the same page as the quote). But the space left behind by moving the footnote cannot be filled with text, since to do so would move the quotation back on to page 1, returning us to the initial situation. Does this mean that we must leave a large blank space at the bottom of page 1? How is this handled in professional publishing? --BrainInAVat (talk) 03:07, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is not really a language question. Best ask it on the Computer Help Desk.--ChokinBako (talk) 03:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Publishers handle the problem in various ways. The easiest, if it's practicable, is to get the author to add to or make cuts in the text so that the quotation and the footnote both fit on one of the pages. (This is also a good way of dealing with a "widow"—an unfilled last line of a paragraph at the top of a page.) A footnote can also be run over from one page to the next—that is, the beginning of the note can be set on the first page and the rest, separated from the bottom of the text by a thin rule extending the width of the typeblock, on the next page. Or, if the superscript occurs in the last two lines of a recto page, those two lines (and the note) can be moved to the next page and each page of the spread from which they were taken be set one line short. There's always some way to deal with such things. Deor (talk) 04:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, thanks to the wonders of desktop publishing, when justification is being used (and it usually is), the spaces between the ~~words~~characters (Think one thing, type another. I swear by it.) in the paragraphs can easily be manipulated with a few simple mouse clicks. If you make the spaces wider, the paragraphs get longer; if you tighten them, they get shorter. There are limits to how far you can push this, of course, and if you're not careful, you get some pretty ugly paragraphs, but when you're smart about it, you can adjust the length of paragraphs surprisingly efficiently, which often helps a lot in situations like this. -- Captain Disdain (talk) 12:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Swearing

Why are swear words considered taboos? It's not like they hurt anyone. For example, if someone were to say "poop" (e.g. in the context "I've gotta take a poop"), there is no reason for that person to be punished. However, if they were to say "shit" (e.g. in the context "I've gotta take a shit"), they are much more likely to be punished, even though the words mean exactly the same thing. It just makes no sence to me, and I have yet to get a good explanation. You're dreaming eh? 03:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Human nature, perhaps? Or Human convention? Acceptability (linguistics) is often more complex than grammaticality. --Kjoonlee 03:31, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Some words develop a taboo during the course of their use, and are replaced by newer words. The older words then either die out or continue to be used with this taboo and vulgar connotation, while the newer words are acceptible. These new words, in turn, develop a taboo during the course of their use, and they are replaced. Thus the cycle continues. This is linguistic evolution.--ChokinBako (talk) 03:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Zounds! This is a crosspost from the Miscellaneous Desk. There's a good answer there. Paragon12321 (talk) 04:18, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's here[1] and I'd move it but they've used "fuck" instead, but it's still a crosspost. Cheers, Julia Rossi (talk) 23:48, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

British Accent and indian pronunciation

I am an Indian trying to understand British Accent for a u.k process call center in India . Even though we are following an English language , ours is non phonetic in aspirated sounds and counting of diphthongs.So in the areas of counting syllable my knowledge is limited to differentiate in to phonetic codes for pronunciation.As far as i have approached Indian teachers their pronunciation is somewhat similar to mine even though they learned English phonetics.They said it to be impossible for an Indian to master english in Oxford sense.So i request to get a link on internet to get the components such as

1.combined sounds in phonetics

2.classification of words based on how to count syllables for oxford pronunciation.

3.How the diphthongs are combined to get the complex sounds produced.

4.How can be the articulation end up for Indians —Preceding unsigned comment added by Twinkle.leelabhai (talk • contribs) 03:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a link for you, but I will say it's not impossible for an Indian to master the "Oxford pronunciation" (usually called Received Pronunciation or RP), though it is difficult once you're a teenager or older. It's also unnecessary to completely replace your Indian accent with RP; as long as you understand everything that's said to you in English, and your interlocutor understands everything you say to him, that's surely sufficient. —An gr 04:13, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I imagine that acquiring the accent is a part of job training so that clients do not notice that s/he is calling from India. Although there are lots of people in the UK who speak Indian English, the marketing ploy asks that they try to mimic a more 'native' English accent. Perhaps the article on Indian English and Received Pronunciation will give you something to compare. Otherwise, the best practice you can have is through immersing yourself in UK English, by watching BBC, listening to BBC world, and talking to English people. Short of paying for a dialect coach, that is your best bet. Steewi (talk) 04:29, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You can train a bit at home. Look for BBC podcasts [2] or other British native speaker audio sources. Listen carefully to when they breathe. Then play a sentence. Don't say the words, but hum at the same pitch and rhythm as the speaker and try to breathe at the same places as they did. Record your humming and train till you can match the phrase. Then say the words. You'll improve with training regularly. 71.236.23.111 (talk) 05:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(Slightly off topic) You might find our Call centre article useful. Astronaut (talk) 09:17, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One of the distinctive qualities of Indian accents to English ears (probably to other British ears too, but I haven't asked any Scots or Welshmen about this) is not the vowels, but the dental and retroflex consonants. Many Indian languages have two distinct series, the dentals such as t̪ ('त' in devanagari) and the retroflex or cerebral consonants such as [ʈ] ('ट'). European languages generally have only a dental series, but in most British varieties of English we use not dentals but alveolar consonants such as [t], which lie in between the two series of Indian languages. All the Indian varieties of English I have heard use the retroflexes to render these sounds, rather than the dentals - and it is this above all that makes the accent sound Indian. If you were to speak English using 'त' rather than 'ट' in all contexts, it would still tend to sound 'foreign' to English ears (depending also on other features), but it would not sound nearly so distinctively 'Indian'. --ColinFine (talk) 12:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Without meaning to belittle – I think I'd notice the pitch contours before the cerebral stops (as retroflex are also called in India). —Tamfang (talk) 22:37, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lead me to the truth

When I asked a question at the Science desk, I was referred to this article at The Independent whose heading is "My killer dinner: How a vegetable diet lead to organ malfunction". Is this a Britishism? Clarityfiend (talk) 04:25, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I assume you're talking about the use of 'lead'. My first thought was that the lead was a pun, but I think it was just a typo for 'led'. Steewi (talk) 04:32, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I see this error all the time. I've never quite decided whether people make it by analogy with "read" (present tense) and "read" (past tense) or by thinking "/lɛd/" and then spelling it the way the name of the metal that is so pronounced is spelled. Deor (talk) 04:43, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, the spelling is a typo, as the article has nothing to do with lead. Well done, ~~The Independant~~ The Independent, for making sure the world knows that even us Brits can't spell (or hire people who can!). Anyway, I never read The Independant, because the only thing it is independant of is reality. Better reading The Guardian.--ChokinBako (talk) 04:45, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Two comments: 1. It's the Independent. 2. The Portuguese government is deciding to simplify Portuguese spelling to remove double letters and silent consonants. There is an article on the subject by Marcel Berlins in the Guardian this week. Both lead/led and Independe/ant are evidence for the need of simplification of British spelling! SaundersW (talk) 08:52, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My error duly noted and fixed. And I told you The Guardian was better!--ChokinBako (talk) 13:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I prefer the Grauniad too, although it's hardly in a position to assert its superiority on the basis of typographical accuracy. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 13:20, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A number of years ago, I once read (in The Guardian) that The Guardian had started using a new auto-correct for typos. In the old days when PC was in its infancy and the world had gone ballistic on it, the auto-correct had been programmed to change 'black' to 'Afro-Carribean', and in one article it referred to Nelson Mandela as been the 'Afro-Carribean leader of South Africa', which was hilarious! So, I guess you're right.--ChokinBako (talk) 14:08, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's obviously an apocryphal story, though. There are countless perfectly innocent uses of the word black (although the number may be slowly reducing), and no spell-checker in the world is going to want to catch all of them. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 14:15, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, the Guardian style guide (which admittedly might have changed since then) allows 'black' and bans 'Afro-Caribbean'. Algebraist 14:39, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reminds me of the (non-apocryphal, I saw it myself) story in the Yale student newspaper back in the early 1990s discussing the relations between whites and "African Americans" in South Africa. —An gr 16:46, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can imagine that someone working on an article that mentioned Mandela and Black persons closer to home might decide to change all of the latter to "Afro-Caribbean" or whatever, forgetting that Mandela was in there too. I've made analogous booboos. —Tamfang (talk) 03:31, 29 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Which only goes to show that my story could have been true, too. And I did see it with my own eyes. 1994, it was. I remember because I remember exactly where I was when I read it. --ChokinBako (talk) 19:45, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I think the only part of your story that anyone really doubted was that the replacement of "black" with "Afro-Caribbean" was done automatically by computer, rather than manually by a well-meaning but ignorant human being. Otherwise you would also have seen stories about women wearing little Afro-Caribbean dresses to social functions or people listening to the Rolling Stones singing "Paint It, Afro-Caribbean". —An gr 07:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

True, not to mention the Afro-Caribbean Hole in the centre of the galaxy, and the stories of the Afro-Caribbean Shirts running around causing chaos during Crystal Night in Germany just before WW2.--ChokinBako (talk) 07:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Excuse me, I'm suddenly motivated to go tickle my African American cat. (Egypt is in Africa, right?) —Tamfang (talk) 22:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Voicing in English phonetics

Hi,

Voicing is a distinctive feature in English
1. Aspiration is not, since "spin" can have an aspirated P
Pin and bin are distinguished by voicing

Do people all agree on the above? But then,

I scream (not apsirated)
Ice cream (aspirated)
- Can these be distinguished by a native speaker?

And also,

Initial Bs are devoiced
- But the chorus of "Beat It" sounds seems to use a fully devoiced stop

So how do people distinguish "beat it" from "Pete it"? --Kjoonlee 06:28, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"spin" can have an aspirated P Do you mean if it's physically possible? Otherwise English does not have an aspirated stop in spin. Beat it and Pete it are fully distinguishable for me, since /p/ in Pete *is* aspirated. Less confident about I scream ~ ice cream but scream has a longer vowel for me. Ladefoged argues that there is no clear opposition between voiced and voiceless stops in English. They are distinguished rather by aspiration word-initially, and by vowel length elsewhere so that the real difference between words like cap and cab is that the former has a shorter vowel. — Zerida ☥ 06:47, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that p in Pete is aspirated, but not b in beat. It is true that aspiration is a more reliable distinguishing characteristic in this opposition than is voicing.

The k sound in ice cream is aspirated, whereas it is unaspirated in I scream. This is beacuse p, t and k are unaspirated following an s in the same syllable, as in spar, star and scar. Also, the i sounds may differ slightly in the speech of many Canadians and some Americans, because of Canadian raising in ice cream. Joeldl (talk) 06:54, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, as a Canadian speaker, "ice cream" and "I scream" are definitely distinct, both because of raising and aspiration. But there seems to be more to it than that...like in "ice cream" both words are emphasized, and in "I scream", "scream" has the emphasis. Does that make sense? Adam Bishop (talk) 07:36, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Most, if not all of the answer doesn't depend on "native speaker" but on "form where"? I've been to places where there are no significant differences between b and p and all sort of other local oddities. Pronunciation can be limited to a certain ethnic background or distinct location. Our movers and my "significant other" are both native Atlantans (US, Georgia), but had a lot of trouble understanding each other. I personally would distinguish between "I scream" and "ice cream" not by the "k" sound, but by the stress (on the EAm or I). 71.236.23.111 (talk) 21:30, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

More info on English voicing contrasts. In utterance-initial position, [+voice] stops have (1) short voice onset time (typically with no phonetic voicing during closure), (2) lower 1st formant transition, (3) weaker stop burst, (4) lower fundamental frequency while [-voice] have (1) long VOT, (2) higher F1, (3) stronger burst, (4) higher f0. In intervocalic position, [+voice] stops have (1) closure voicing, (2) shorter closure duration, (3) longer preceding vowel, (4) lower f0 & F1 while [-voice] have (1) no closure voicing, (2) longer closure duration, (3) shorter preceding vowel, (4) higher f0 & F1. In utterance-final position, [+voi] has (1) longer preceding vowel, (2) variable closure voicing, (3) shorter closure duration, (4) lower f0 while [-voi] has (1) shorter preceding vowel, (2) no closure voicing, (3) longer closure duration, (4) higher f0. These some of the main acoustic cues, but there are more. For example, Leigh Lisker identified 16 different acoustic differences between English intervocalic [+voi] and [-voi] stops (eg. rabid vs. rapid).

The perceptual contrast between [+voi] and [-voi] stops is probably (that is, from what we know now) signaled mostly by the difference between the time of the voicing event with respect to the closure release event, the difference between low frequency energy during or near the closure, and the duration of the stop. In English, the low frequency energy is the lower f0 and F1 in utterance-initial position. In French in this position, the low frequency energy comes from lower f0 (and probably F1 too) as well as voicing during the stop closure.

I dont know how I should interpret the "no significant differences between b and p" comment above. Maybe it means that some dialects have VOT differences?

The comments about stress are, of course, right. The acoustic correlates of stress are different vowel durations and pitch contours. – ishwar (speak) 19:57, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for the answers. Yes, I meant that an aspirated "spin" was physically possible. I'm not 100% sure, but aspiration/non-aspiration (when the other is expected) does occur. (A song by Jewel comes to mind, but I can't remember the song or its lyrics...) I do agree that "I scream" and "ice cream" can have different stress, but I'd like to point out that they can also have identical stress if you say "I scream." --Kjoonlee 21:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

California English: [(ˈ)aˑɪˈskɹʷiʲm] vs. [ˈɐɪskʰɹ^œiʲm]. They differ in stress, even under emphatic prosody, vowel quality and vowel length of the /ai/, aspiration & devoicing of the /r/, and degree of labialization (outrounded vs. inrounded) of the /r/. —kwami (talk) 01:19, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Society for the Restoration of Lost Positives

What happened to the Society for the Restoration of Lost Positives? Neon Merlin 06:56, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Since it was never official, I guess whether it exists or not is whether those "proclaimed" to be "members" still say that they are. Fribbler (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:49, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's a lostpositives.com, so I guess someone remembers. We have an article unpaired word. -- BenRG (talk) 21:31, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese translation

Hello, I would like a translation of the second sentence of this Japanese line. The writer, Shinji Orito, is commenting on a song he wrote, and I would like to use it in the song's entry on the article linked. 'Ayu' noted at the beginning is for the character Ayu Tsukimiya, and this song is her theme, as the first sentence states:

あゆのテーマ曲です。テーマ曲の中では一番気に入ってるかな・・・パーカスがいい感じに入ったと思います。

And, almost forgot, Orito strangely uses the word パーカス for "percussion", noting the percussion parts of the song.--十八 09:00, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

My take on it: "This is Ayu's theme song. My favourite part of the theme song… I think the percussion is really good." Paul Davidson (talk) 12:10, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It means "This is Ayu's theme song. This is probably the song I like most out of all the theme songs....I think the percussion is really good."--ChokinBako (talk) 13:11, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

english language

hera are greek and latin roots. find out at least four words formed from them? psych-mind hydr-water man-hand urb-city audi-hear auto-self bio-life graph-writting phon-sound bi-two —Preceding unsigned comment added by 41.223.66.42 (talk) 13:24, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I hate to be rude, but you could have found them in a dictionary in the time it took to type all that. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just look in the dictionary and write down everything that begins with 'psych-', 'hydr-', and so on. Don't write 'big', though, for 'bi-', as you might get in trouble.--ChokinBako (talk) 14:01, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And I presume they can be in the middle of words too, if necessary. So hydr- could be found in the middle of a word meaning dried up for example. Or urb- might crop up in a small town on the edge of a city? Fribbler (talk) 14:37, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

When using the dictionary, just check in the part of the entry where it describes the origin of the word to make sure that it is really from your Greek or Latin root. Marco polo (talk) 18:50, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And for the really lazy student just type your word roots into the "search" window in the side bar and click on "search". Scan through the pages our trusty search engine will offer up. (After all you are studying to become master of a robot slave later in life. ;-)--71.236.23.111 (talk) 21:17, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh yeah, and next time you want to ask us something like this, make an effort first. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Cyberina 11 (talk • contribs) 06:43, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Romanisation of Chinese names

Hi,

I've scoured the many pages on Chinese language, and transliteration of Chinese characters and cannot find a definitive answer to the following.

Is it possible to consistently and accurately transliterate (using Wade Giles or Pinyin) the Chinese characters that represent a Chinese name (both family and given names)?

I understand that names are "romanised" on passports etc - but don't understand how this is achieved. And can the Pinyin transliteration be accurately and consistently "translated" back into Chinese characters?

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks Juantaniom (talk) 14:59, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Romanization of Chinese is done phonetically. Because of homophones, transliteration from Chinese into Roman letters is a "lossy" process, even if diacritical marks indicating the tones are used. It is not possible to reliably map a transliterated Chinese name back to its Chinese characters. --72.78.102.134 (talk) 15:19, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks - I suspected this was the case but appreciate your speedy responseJuantaniom (talk) 15:53, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you were to use General Chinese it wouldn't be nearly as lossy, and it being proper name would narrow things down, so you often would be able to revert to characters. In fact, the principal reason for GC was to demonstrate that characters are not necessary for Chinese, and that Chinese can be written in a syllabic or alphabetic form that's just as accessible to the various dialects as characters. But no one uses it. kwami (talk) 20:17, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, narrowing it down isn't a 1-to-1 mapping still, and while educated guesses can be used for reverting names in many cases, there are still going to be lots of errors due to homophones. --Wirbelwindヴィルヴェルヴィント (talk) 20:29, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for citing General Chinese, anyway. I suspected (in my ignorance) that such a thing might be possible, and it's a delight to have it confirmed! —Tamfang (talk) 22:47, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Japanese! (From a song)

Hi, I've always wanted to know what's being said in Japanese in this song (Fragment from "Floppy Disk", by Pitchshifter, from their "Genius" maxi-single EP). Could someone translate it, pretty please? ^_^ Thanks in advance, Kreachure (talk) 20:38, 22 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can't find the lyrics anywhere online, but this page says the ninja vocals are by Makiko Takizowa. SaundersW (talk) 16:00, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What's wrong? Why won't you reply? It's only a 500k mp3, and the site I put it on checks for viruses! Should I put it somewhere else, or in another format? Lyrics for this part of the song don't exist at all, so this is the only way I have to know what's being said in the song! If you won't help me, then could you please point me to someplace that will? Again, please help me out. Kreachure (talk) 14:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

This is what the girl says. Ask someone to translate. フロッピー・ディスクとはさみ、マッチ、除光液を用意します。次にフロッピー・ディスクを注意深く二つに開けて、中にあるコットン・カバーを取り外します。そして、木製のナイフなどで、マッチ棒の先をけずって、それをすり鉢などに入れ、粉にします。そのあとにその粉を先ほどのフロッピー・ディスクのうえに均等にばらまきます。そして、フロッピー・ディスクの縁に除光液を塗って、二つをくっつけて、元のように戻します。最後にそのフロッピー・ディスクをコンピューターの本体に入れます。コンピューターがフロッピー・ディスクを読みとったとき、コンピューターは破壊されます。Oda Mari (talk) 15:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Oda Mari. But I thought a translation was what I had already asked for to you and others here? I hope I'm not misunderstanding something here...? Kreachure (talk) 17:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It's instructions on how to destroy a computer with a modified floppy disk, and how to modify a floppy disk to do so. This is a song!??! Here are the words: "Prepare a floppy disk, scissors, matches, and glue. Carefully open the floppy disk into two. Take out the inside cotton cover. Then, with a wooden knife, shave the end of the match, put it into a bowl, and grind it down. Then sprinkle it on the aforementioned floppy disk. Then, cover the sides of the floppy disk with glue and put the two halves back together. Finally, put the floppy disk into the computer. When the computer tries to read the disk, the computer will break." Not very well written lyrics, as it doesn't say what to do with the scissors and doesn't mention the 'wooden knife' in the 'items to prepare' bit. (In fact, the word I have translated as 'glue' here, is 'nail varnish remover', but this seems totally implausible to me as an agent for sticking plastic together, unless it melts the plastic, in which case the floppy disk case would be warped and unable to work in the machine, for for the sake of logic I changed it to 'glue', but even so it would not work, as the heat generated in a disk drive is not enough to make phosphorous ignite, and if the singer is relying on friction (i.e. the disk is spinning around with bits of phosphorous scraping on the inside of the floppy disk case, that is still a no-no, as the disk itself would not spin if there was an obstruction like that. Bit silly, but anyway, I did the translation as asked.))--ChokinBako (talk) 19:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks a lot ChokinBako. I really didn't know what to expect from the message (it's not lyrics per se; it's more of a hidden message of sorts) so I'm as baffled as you are. Thank you for your plausibility analysis, too! :) Either way, knowing what it says, however silly it may have turned out to be, is very gratifying. Thanks again. Kreachure (talk) 22:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

PS. I did a little snooping around and found out that this describes a pretty unusual but known way to damage your computer; the method indeed mentions nail polish remover, not as glue, but as flammable material (I presume:). Kreachure (talk) 22:53, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No worries, mate! I am surprised Oda Mari didn't get on it before me, because she usually does! ChokinBako (talk) 07:17, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry that I didn't translate, Kreachure. I am not good at J to E translation. So I expected some English native speaker would do that. And thank you ChokinBako for the perfect translation. Oda Mari (talk) 14:57, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

May 23

Irish orthography

What's the difference between Eoin and Eóin (with the fada). I can't find/understand the difference on Irish orthography. I noticed without the fada is used much more. Is it proper usage with the fada? I'm hoping some Irish speakers can clarify this for me. 216.160.55.34 (talk) 03:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'll have a shot at this, but my Irish is elementary, so someone may need to correct me. Eoin is pronounced more or less as the English say "Owen". The purpose of the fada is to mark the -o- as long. But when you get three vowels together, usually only the one with a fada on it is pronounced. There's no difficulty about pronouncing Eoin, so we can live without the fada. Is that it? Xn4 11:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You're right. The fada is superfluous here and completely incorrect as far as I'm aware. Fribbler (talk) 11:15, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A search of Vicipéid (the Irish Wikipedia) gives hundreds of instances of Eoin, none of Eóin. Xn4 14:02, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Eóin is the older spelling. Long [o:] used to be spelled "ó" after broad consonants and "eó" after slender consonants, but because it was largely redundant, the accent got dropped (even Patrick S. Dinneen's 1927 dictionary doesn't use it). There are very few words where "eo" represents a short vowel: seo "this", anseo "here", deoch "a drink", and eochair "a key" may be the only common words where "eo" is short. —An gr 16:42, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In line with what Angr says, see Eóin.com - "Eóin is the oldest and most consistently-used Gaelic form of John in both Irish and Scottish Gaelic". So the fada clearly isn't 'improper', it's old-fashioned. Xn4 18:44, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect, though, they're comparing Eóin to other equivalents of John, like Iain in Scottish Gaelic and Seán in Irish, rather than to the fadaless spelling Eoin. —An gr 18:47, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Exdent: True it was the older spelling, though anseo was also spelled anso in pre-1960s Irish (Ulster and Connaght). The massive changes instituted by the caighdean reforms of the niineteen-sixties changed an awful lot of spellings. I prefer the new spellings :-) Though I accept the historical, of course. Is Mise le meas, an Fribleair . Fribbler (talk) 00:15, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So is this guy's name correct with the fada? 216.160.55.34 (talk) 21:41, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes; as far as I know, Scottish Gaelic (as opposed Irish) still puts an accent mark over the o in the "eo" digraph. However, a recent spelling reform abolished the acute accent in Scottish Gaelic and replaced it everywhere with the grave accent. So "Eóin" is an outdated spelling in both languages, but in Irish the newer spelling is "Eoin" and in Scottish Gaelic it's "Eòin". —An gr 21:48, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've just noticed on another page that we have a user here called Eóin. I'll alert him to this, and we'll see if he has anything to say! Xn4 00:38, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ban him! Disregarding accepted orthography? I think not! :-) Fribbler (talk) 00:40, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

He may be very elderly... but no, I think I hear the sound of a horse-whip being swung through the air. Xn4 00:45, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I hate to disappoint but I have absolutely no knowledge of Irish! I'm from the states and received the name from my parents after they took some Irish language classes. I know my birth certificate has the fada but most other ID forms lose the fada or any other diacritics for that matter. I've been told that the fada is correct but then again I really don't know what I'm talking about. ~ Eóin (talk) 04:04, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I too spell my name Eóin and I'm irish so we'll just leave it there — Preceding unsigned comment added by 90.232.64.5 (talk) 11:36, 25 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Fucking bitch vs. fucked bitch

Why do we say the first more often than the second? Mr.K. (talk) 14:18, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Because 'fucking' is a standard English intensifier that can be applied to more or less anything, especially insults, while 'fucked' is a word with a fairly narrow range of meanings. In addition, 'fucked' is normally used predicatively ('that bitch is fucked'); for attributive use, 'fucked-up' is more natural with roughly the same range of meanings. Algebraist 14:26, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"F###ing" is not in intensifier in this context—it is an adjective indicating that the person/object it applies to is despised by the speaker. "F###ed" means something different and is ambiguous. It may mean that something is very wrong with the person/thing the word applies to. It may also mean that the person/thing was victimized, abused, or betrayed. It may also be literal, meaning that the person/thing is the object/patient of a sexual act. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.237.229 (talk) 14:55, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

'Bitch' already indicates despisal, which is intensified by 'fucking', hence my claim. Algebraist 14:59, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand it, intensifiers are adverbs modifying adjectives making the latter stronger or weaker. Here "f###ing" is an adjective modifying a noun—not in the right category to be an intensifier. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.78.237.229 (talk) 15:30, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Usages may differ here, but the OED lists 'fucking' as an intensifier under both adjective and adverb. Indeed, the first quote under 2a. Used as an intensifier is 'fucking bitch' (well, '******* b—h' actually, but the inference seems sound). Algebraist

It is most definitely an intensifier. No two ways about it. If it was an adjective it would mean 'a bitch (who is in the act of) fucking'. Quite simple.--ChokinBako (talk) 19:39, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I dont think that 72.78.237.229 is wrong. You can say He's a fucking student. Theres nothing in the word student thats particularly negative, but you do get the impression that whoever said this doesnt like students. The word intensifier is a vague grammatical term (defined notionally). Words like very have also been termed intensifiers (as in He's very nice). What is being "intensified" by these words are different. fucking is expressive (it tells you about the speaker's attitude) while very is not.

I dont think that fucked and fucked up are equivalent. He's fucked and He's fucked up mean different things. – ishwar (speak) 20:08, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The neat thing about fucking is that it can be spliced in the middle of words: in-fucking-credible, unbe-fucking-lievable, tre-fucking-mendous, etc. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 04:41, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

See tmesis (and there's a word that looks like it needs something thrust inside it to complete it)! --Anonymous, 05:57 UTC, May 24, 2008.

In my linguistics classes, this was actually called "infixing." — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 07:50, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

An infix is normally an affix, not an independent word. kwami (talk) 10:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

t-fucking-mesis t-fucking-schmesis! This is not the point of the question! :) --ChokinBako (talk) 19:05, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Back to the question, probably because "bitch" implies the person in question is already efft (ruined, despised, has offended in some way and is probably rooted). Efft isn't usually an adjective, but effing is and can be attached and repeated ad infinitim in many dialects. Rucked if I know, though... ; ) Julia Rossi (talk) 23:39, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm surprised this f-ing question got so many answers! Sandman30s (talk) 21:58, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Commented editions of English literature

What is the most prominent edition of commented English literature? (Something equivalent to the "Letras Hispánicas" of "Editorial Cátedra" in Spanish. Mr.K. (talk) 18:28, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or like the Bibliothèque de la Pléiade for 'classic' French literature? We don't really have an equivalent in English, but for many important books of the kind you mean a good critical edition is published by the Oxford University Press, including a series called the Oxford World's Classics. I wouldn't suggest that the OUP has a general pre-eminence, but it shouldn't let you down. For early texts, there's the wonderful Early English Text Society. Xn4 19:01, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The texts in Norton Critical Editions are accompanied by good annotations, along with related criticism. For American literature, the Library of America volumes are similar to what you're looking for. Deor (talk) 19:40, 23 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

May 24

Peer Reviewed?

(Removed question cross-posted at the more adequate Science Desk where it received at least one detailed reply).

Plastic artist

What is a plastic artist? See List of Chileans. -- SGBailey (talk) 15:19, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Someone who creates plastic art, visual art in three dimensions. Since the list features more painters than sculptors, I changed it to "Artists". ---Sluzzelin talk 15:56, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Reading quotations

When reading a formal speech or oral presentation, how does one speak the following:

John had "...eaten a lot of honey...when he woke up."

Does one say "quote" and "end quote" at its respective locations? Does one say "dot dot dot" at the ellipses? Thanks. Acceptable (talk) 19:31, 24 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You'd probably have to to be understood. That or phonetic punctuation. But I think it'd be better to reword. -- BenRG (talk) 02:25, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The quotation marks you could say as "I quote" (no unquote at the end) or "quote" eaten.... "unquote". The ellipses you would indicate by pausing briefly. --Lisa4edit (talk) 05:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

May 25

Double acronyms

How many acronyms are there that have two official expansions at the same time to refer to the same thing? (The only example I know of is ATWA.) Neon Merlin 00:17, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you're willing to go for fictitious entries, the Marvel comic-book based espionage group SHIELD has gone through at least three names. Originally, it stood for Supreme Headquarters, International Espionage, Law-Enforcement Division, which then became Strategic Hazard Intervention, Espionage Logistics Directorate. In the excellent Iron Man movie, they changed it to Strategic Homeland Intervention, Enforcement, and Logistics Division and made a bit of a joke about how clumsy the name was. Matt Deres (talk) 02:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

ESL is English Sign Language and English as a Second Language for one, there are lots more. This site has long lists [3] --Lisa4edit (talk) 05:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

But the question was about acronyms with two official expansions referring to the same thing. English sign language and English a second language aren't the same thing. "PTL" in the PTL Club can stand for either "Praise The Lord" or "People That Love". —An gr 07:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

WWF was both wrestling and wildlife until Vince McMahon changed his.hotclaws 07:58, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but again, the World Wrestling Federation and the World Wildlife Fund are not the same thing. The question was about acronyms with multiple expansions that refer to the same thing. —An gr 08:01, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The NT in 'Windows NT' has at times stood for N10, New Technology, and nothing at all. Paul Davidson (talk) 08:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As in Nothing aT all? :-) —An gr 08:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I've seen several acronyms for organizations which changed one of the words somewhere along the line, either because the scope of the group changed, the image they wanted to project changed, or one of the words took on negative connotations. However, nothing as radical as ATWA. kwami (talk) 10:05, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lots, especially in context of computers. What comes into my mind is "GCC": it has changed from "GNU C compiler" to "GNU compiler collection" when they unified it with G++ and all the other backends for non-C languages. – b_jonas 11:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There's also this joke about the expansion of "GNU" itself. – b_jonas 11:18, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nice question by the way. I wonder if there's a name for such acronyms. – b_jonas 11:21, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

We could try to coin one (dualternyms, hehe) but I think that "constant rebranding disorder" is the real answer doktorb _words^deeds 11:34, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

DVD was originally "digital video disk" but is now "digital versatile disk". But then the OP specified "two official expansions at the same time", and I think with DVD the official expansion changed from one to the other, rather than the two being official at the same time. —An gr 11:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If you're willing to accept backronyms then sic could be (from the article):

"spelling is correct", "same in copy", "spelling intentionally conserved", "said in context", or "sans intention comique" (French: without comic intent).

Zain Ebrahim (talk) 13:15, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The expansion of snafu is rendered differently, depending on how profane one chooses to be. Deor (talk) 13:20, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, good example. That goes to "RTFM" as well. – b_jonas 17:52, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I know it's not quite an acronym, but SQ came to mind - the one written on restaurant menus next to expensive items. At least in my country they do that, don't know about others. I never quite knew what it stood for. Googling around suggests "special quotation", "subject to quotation", "seasonal quotation", "subject to quality", "Salon Qualitaire". I always thought it meant "special quisine" but that was my misconception carried over from parents who didn't want me to see them as lacking in knowledge. I'm surprised wiki doesn't have an article on this. Looking it this it might after all be a South African thing. Any ideas would be appreciated. Sandman30s (talk) 21:51, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Somali and Arabic

Is there a website where I can compare Somali letters with Arabic letters? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Don Mustafa (talk • contribs) 02:08, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Take a look at http://www.omniglot.com/writing/somali.htm and the pages it links to. Maybe you'll find something there. Wikipedia has articles on the Latin Somali alphabet and Wadaad's writing (i.e. the Arabic alphabet for Somali), as well as on Osmanya script and Borama script, but no direct comparison. —An gr 07:44, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

How can I learn to write better?

Besides doing the obvious (like reading a lot), and considering that I have no access to a private teacher, where is the way to go? 217.168.4.191 (talk) 03:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Write as in creative writing or write as in spelling, grammar etc. ? I think [4] is pretty amazing, but sort of hard to navigate, although they have a search window. You might also read some literary criticism. --Lisa4edit (talk) 05:13, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the Purdue link. I'll take a look. 217.168.4.191 (talk) 12:55, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Have you tried blogging about what you read, the issues of the day and so on? (You kids have it easy: in my day we had to kill and skin our own mimeo ...) — Ben Franklin said that, to teach himself to write well, he would read an essay, jot down its themes, and try to recreate the essay from his notes. — You could do worse than to read Fowler's Modern English Usage: some of the specifics of his advice are dated or (imho) wrongheaded, but overall it expresses good instincts. —Tamfang (talk) 23:06, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Signs on artwork

Hello. There is an art display in our local courthouse that changes every month or so. This month there are some Japanese chigiri-e works featuring landscapes and buildings. Two of the works are of small shops or businesses, I believe, because they have signs on them. I just wonder what the signs say. Here are details of them from the artwork:

(1) File:Art sign 1.jpg (2) File:Art sign 2.jpg.

Thank you. — Michael J 11:48, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

They're not anything I recognise. I would take them as a non-Japanese artist's impression of katakana - which would be unlikely to be used in that context anyway, unless the businesses had foreign names. --ColinFine (talk) 12:22, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not Japanese. They look like old Semitic graffiti to me, but with such simple shapes they could be just about anything. kwami (talk) 12:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for trying. I wasn't sure. (If they are katakana, maybe they are personal names on homes. Images of the entire artworks are here and here.) — Michael J 13:24, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Having seen the pictures, I'm even more convinced that they are an artist's impression of a script he or she doesn't read - but they don't look the slightest bit authentic, because their simplicity is reminiscent of katakana, which as I said would not be normal in that sort of context. --ColinFine (talk) 13:33, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Modern artists can be quite devious. It's quite likely it means nothing and its purpose it to make you wonder what it means.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 18:42, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

It is definitely not authentic katakana. As everyone says, it is either a non-native artist's impression of it, or something else. It is unreadable as katakana, and nobody in their right minds in Japan would put an unreadable name plate outside their house. How else is the postman going to deliver the post, considering houses don't have house numbers and most streets don't have names?--ChokinBako (talk) 19:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you all. I will give up trying to understand them, then, and just enjoy the pretty pictures. — Michael J 20:16, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Considering they're on shop fronts, if they were modeled after anything it was probably an impressionistic recollection of hiragana or perhaps grass-style kanji. kwami (talk) 23:11, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled

"We can see who the richest person is".

"We can see who is the richest person".

Are there grammatical rules to assert whether either of these is incorrect? ----Seans Potato Business 13:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yes. In indirect questions like these, the verb doesn't move to the front to follow the fronted interrogative pronoun "who", as it does in direct questions. So "We can see who the richest person is" is correct, and "*We can see who is the richest person" is incorrect. In a direct question, it would be the other way around: "Who is the richest person?" is correct, and "*Who the richest person is?" is incorrect. —An gr 14:07, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. ----Seans Potato Business 15:22, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That analysis must be wrong, because both sentences are correct. I think the second one is more likely to be used when there's a context referring to a small group of people, so that "who" refers implicitly to one of the group. And I have no idea of why that would be. --Anonymous, 08:30 UTC, May 26, 2008.

The second sentence is certainly awkward, if not outright wrong. It sounds like a typical foreigner's error. Paul Davidson (talk) 11:12, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The second sentence is correct if we can see that the person on first base is the richest. —An gr 14:42, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Funny joke. In everyday speech and writing, "We can see who the richest person is" is right. The second variation, "We can see who is the richest person", is perfectly good English, too. If we make it "We can see which is the richest person", its validity becomes obvious, and we wouldn't as readily say "We can see which the richest person is." --Milkbreath (talk) 14:52, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Placebo effect

I was just watching an episode of House, where a woman was touch by a spiritual healer and no longer needed a zimmer frame to walk. Assuming that this was not an act of God, is there a word/phrase for it? I know what the Placebo effect is but that doesn't seem quite right for my needs. Thanks 92.2.194.36 (talk) 14:46, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Autosuggestion? ---Sluzzelin talk 15:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I can come up with several more: Psychosomatic healing, Pygmalion effect, Post hoc ergo propter hoc subconscious effects, or any other by-product of strong optimism. I don't know if there are any more adequate (and less cynical) expressions for what you refer to... Kreachure (talk) 17:29, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Observer-expectancy effect, Therapeutic effect or Expectation? Think outside the box 19:28, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Fiction? --Nicknack009 (talk) 23:09, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You might be looking for spontaneous remission. The confluence or merging of elements making up the circumstances is usually said to be serendipitous. Julia Rossi (talk) 23:23, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Um, yeah, what she said. Thanks for making me feel irrelevant, Julia! :P Kreachure (talk) 23:36, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No way is that! I'm going to have fun clicking through your answer next chance I get. : ) Julia Rossi (talk) 01:29, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You might like to watch to the end of the episode, where a medically sounds explanation for the healing is given (due, if I remember, to some sort of virus transmission from the contact). So in the context of the show it is neither Autosuggestion, Psychosomatic, or any of the other of the subconscious effects. DJ Clayworth (talk) 15:53, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

IPA for Oier Olazábal

Hi, can someone transcribe the Spanish pronunciation of Oier Olazábal for me? Thank you. --Kjoonlee 21:41, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

/ɒiɛr ɒlæ'θæbæl/ (the á represents stress vowel in that case). I'm a native Spanish speaker, but I'm not too familiarized with IPA; still, I think it's very accurate. Kreachure (talk) 23:26, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. By /æ/ do you mean the near-open front unrounded vowel as in English "trap"? Audio sample. --Kjoonlee 23:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Following the orthography, in Castellano it would be Spanish pronunciation: [oiˈer olaˈθaβal]. Or do you want Catalan? kwami (talk) 00:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, kwami's is much better. Forget mine. T_T Still, I think the Help:IPA for Spanish page is pretty confusing for English speakers, so if you need help hearing it, I recommend checking Help:IPA's audio samples. Kreachure (talk) 00:30, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

grammar

Is this literary piece 'as good as I could write', 'as well as I could write', both or neither? (the question is not about literary pieces but English grammar) ----Seans Potato Business 21:54, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I assume "right" is a typo for "write." I'd say "as good as" in such cases. --Kjoonlee 21:59, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That's right, I meant 'write'! ----Seans Potato Business 22:56, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If the literary piece is as good as I could have written it, the author must have done it as well as I could have done it. --Kjoonlee 22:00, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you both! ----Seans Potato Business 22:57, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If Seans gives a **** about my opinion, you can say both and get away with it. Ericthebrainiac (talk) 23:40, 25 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I doubt that, Eric. We're talking about the quality of the text (good/bad), not how the writer wrote it (well/badly). -- JackofOz (talk) 22:11, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"As well as I could write" is correct written English, the use of the word "good" in this context is colloquial and rather informal. "Good" is also an over-used word, much like the word "nice".Katana Geldar 23:00, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I suspect you're getting that exactly backwards, Katana, and that's my job around here. Please provide us with the complete sentence that you are referring to when you say that the use of "good" in it is colloquial. Also, I don't think it's possible for a basic core word like "good" to become hackneyed. --Milkbreath (talk) 23:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Shawshank Redemption (film), "I don't spell so good." Quote not verbatim. --Kjoonlee 18:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Ah, I see what you're getting at, Milkbreath. I'd never say "This literary piece is as well as I could write." --Kjoonlee 18:39, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Compare the difference: "This piece is as good as I could write it" vs. "I wrote this piece as well as I could (write it)". -- JackofOz (talk) 22:28, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

May 26

Hindi and Bengali: mutually understandable

If you speak one of them, can you understand the other? At least halfway? 217.168.1.95 (talk) 12:16, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article on Mutual intelligibility would suggest that you couldn't. Some different dialects of Bengali aren't even mutually intelligible. Fribbler (talk) 18:48, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pronounciation on the pinyin "zh"

How is the pinyin "zh" pronounced? I've tried to search for the answer but different sources have different answers and my very limited knowledge of IPA is no help. --RMFan1 (talk) 15:23, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Roughly like the English "j" in "jerk". The exact articulation is slightly different, and it's devoiced in Chinese, but using the English "j" sound will get you very close to Mandarin "zh". —An gr 15:49, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As to articulation, according to our article on retroflex consonants, you should keep your tongue flat (i.e. not curl up the tip), with the blade of the tongue (the top surface of the tongue near the tip) touching the roof of the mouth behind the alveolar ridge. To practice the sound as unvoiced, whisper words like "jerk" and "merger". --Lambiam 16:03, 26 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Rather like the ch of Spanish (which I see you speak), as opposed to "ch", which is rather like the ch of English. kwami (talk) 09:45, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

May 27

Where to put "from"?

Hello there, since English is my second language, so I'm having trouble with asking question by using "from". Which is the correct:

From which universities you are calling?
Which universities you are calling from?

Any reply? Thank you--202.168.229.243 (talk) 07:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In theory (1) is correct English, but (2) is perfectly acceptable in conversation. By the way, are you sure it should be "universities", not "university"? I would have thought a caller would only be calling from one university. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 08:07, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In both examples, it should say "are you", not "you are". Clarityfiend (talk) 08:12, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Also, in the above examples, the correct word order would be "are you calling", rather than "you are calling". Gwinva (talk) 08:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, sorry, I missed that. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 08:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Not to worry: two of us didn't! :) Gwinva (talk) 08:29, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't understand what 202 is trying to say. How do you call from more than one university? Clarityfiend (talk) 08:23, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was wondering that as well, see above. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 08:35, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(1) is not correct "in theory". It's just a shibboleth based on Latin grammar. (2) always has been normal English. kwami (talk) 09:43, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, according to Preposition stranding, "some grammarians frown upon" it, which indicates that there is at least some disagreement over it. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 09:50, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

OK, but in the interests of helping ESLers everywhere, let's step on "some grammarians" right here and now. Those grammarians are just plain wrong, and the entire rest of the English-speaking world is right. "From which universities are you calling?" in the ordinary sense is an abomination, a deformed structure, an especially egregious example of prescriptivism taken too far. It's like a wrong note on the piano and offends anyone with an ear for English. There just might be a place for that construction if a special meaning is meant, but I can't think of one. --Milkbreath (talk) 10:37, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The weasel words of the Preposition stranding article should not be taken seriously. It's a shibboleth, pure and simple: a pretentious attempt by upwardly-mobile people of the ?th century to display how educated they were, and by implication, how they were a better class of people than those who didn't know (or didn't care) to speak that way. It's never been taken seriously by anyone else. kwami (talk) 11:00, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd use "what" – What university are you calling from? Julia Rossi (talk) 23:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for clarification. I think I should have used "are you" instead of "you are". BTW, Julia, why did you say would use "what" instead of "which"? are they both right? if so then why?--202.168.229.243 (talk) 05:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I would use "what" too, presuming the answer can include any number of universities. Fribbler (talk) 10:05, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[the?] Westermarkt, Amsterdam

The sentence I'm editing describes the location of a certain statue of Anne Frank (by Mari Andriessen)as "Westermarkt." The Amsterdam page describes this as an "open-air market" but I don't know whether this is also the name of a street. Choices of preposition, with or without the definite article:

"...in [the] Westermarkt"
"...on [the] Westermarkt"

What would you advise? Do I need a better description of the statue's setting? '-- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 09:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"in the" if it's a market, "on" if it's a street. kwami (talk) 09:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

nl:Westermarkt (Amsterdam) calls it a "plein" which translates to "square" as far as I know. According to the article no market is held there, but the "Westerstraat-markt" is held on "Westerstraat" nearby. On this map, Westermarkt is a short street-shaped thingy (lower right quadrant). ---Sluzzelin talk 10:06, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Further: Related pages indicate the statue's "in front of" the nearby Westerkerk, and checking further web citations via Google, got this description: "The statue is located at the Westermarkt in front of the Westerkerk..." [Emphases mine.] My source text doesn't mention the church. So, that reads well, if "Westermarkt" is a tourist site, and I'll have to trust "VirtualTourist" for knowing the facts in situ. -- Thanks, Deborahjay (talk) 10:17, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The Dutch article also says that the statue is located on the Prinsengracht side (west side of the square), and I saw several sites saying it stands "outside the Westerkerk in Amsterdam" which lies to the Westermarkt's south. So far it looks like the statue is somewhere in the southwest corner of Westermarkt. I'm sure the exact location can be found on a map, I just haven't found it yet. ---Sluzzelin

This map might give you an idea of church, square, and grachten. (but the statue's location isn't given). I just noticed that Westermarkt goes both to the north and to the south of the Westerkerk. Is Westermarkt the entire block? I also noticed there was a pale grey horizontal way parallel to and between the two Westermarkt ways. I guess someone familiar with the location should step in now. I visited the Anne Frank House in 1987. ---Sluzzelin talk 10:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

On this photograph you can see that the statue is right in front of the church tower (known as Westertoren), which is at the Prinsengracht side of the church. You can easily spot the tower on this Google map image. --Lambiam 16:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

As Sluzzelin says, the Westermarkt is a square ("plein"), but it is kind of U-shaped, with the Westerkerk in the middle. On this map, the statue would be near the "W" of the blue text "Westermarkt". I (imagine I) can see it in the shadows of the trees here. I wouldn't say that the statue is in front of the church, because I'm not completely sure what to call the front, I think the church entrance is on the side of the Keizersgracht; instead I would simply write "it is located on the Westermarkt", it's not a very large square. DAVID ŠENEK 16:43, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That fits with what you see on this photograph. The corner of the building you see can only be the southwest corner of the church, and the statue is then just south of the church. --Lambiam 16:57, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Comanche

Anyone know of a good place, book, etc. to learn the Comanche language? I would prefer a free website, but any source will work. Thanks, Ζρς ι'β' ^¡hábleme! 13:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

[5] would probably be a good place to start. "Numinu" or "Numunu" are English transliteration used. Be aware that there is some criticism going around saying that the language is taught in a "bastardized" form, following English more closely to make translating easier. Male/female language division, grammar and concept basis are not preserved. (For an idea how the latter is meant, get an artist, a chemist and a physicist together and have them describe a red dot to you, or imagine discussing colors with a blind person.) Some preservation is much better than losing everything, though. There's no one identifying as Comanche at the Wikipedia:WikiProject Indigenous peoples of North America from what I could see, but if it were me I'd try posting there and see if someone is there or can get you a reference to someone who might be willing to voice-mail or something. Good luck with your studies. Lisa4edit (talk) 18:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looking for a specific term

I frequently have this problem: I'll be having an argument and come up with a really bad comeback. Of course, it's not until later that I think of something really cutting to say. I know there's a term for this and that it's French. I would appreciate it if someone would provide me with the Wikipedia article for this. THANK YOU for your time! Nolarboot (talk) 14:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

L'esprit de l'escalier. Deor (talk) 14:21, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much. You've assisted me with at least two things now. ^_^ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nolarboot (talk • contribs) 14:32, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And, although the article won't say so until a few minutes from now when I change it, a rarely-used English translation exists: "staircase wit". (If more of us use it, it won't be so rare, by the way.) --Milkbreath (talk) 14:49, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

If I may ask, why add this to the article when it says the literal translation is "stairway wit"? Sandman30s (talk) 18:38, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Although the notion is (rightly) discounted in our article, I still can't help thinking of the esprit de l'escalier as a veritable spirit, who hangs out on staircases and takes delight in whispering to people the devastating ripostes that they were unable to come up with on the spur of the moment. Deor (talk) 18:33, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of Greek gods/goddesses

My friend and I are having a squabble over how one pronounces the names of various gods and goddesses of Greek mythology such as Aphrodite, Dionysus, and -oh my- Hephaestus. If someone could please give a small list of names and idiots' pronunciations, I'd be truly grateful. Nolarboot (talk) 16:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

From our articles, Aphrodite is pronounced /afɾoˈðiti/ and Hephaestus is /hɪˈfεstəs/. Thomprod (talk) 16:41, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

According to the article, Template:PronEng or /hɪˈfεstəs/. --Lambiam 17:04, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And Aphrodite may be pronounced /afɾoˈðiti/ in Modern Greek, but in English she's pronounced /ˈæfɾəˌdaɪti/. —An gr 17:18, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Angr is correct. I copied the wrong pronounciation from our article. Thomprod (talk) 17:22, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Oh and Dionysus is /ˌdaɪəˈnaɪsəs/. —An gr 17:53, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Idiots' pronunciations": AF-ruh-DY-tee, DY-uh-NY-suhs, hih-FEE-stuhs (or hih-FEHS-tuhs). Deor (talk) 18:42, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'd pronounce "Hephaestus" in your "idiots'" pronounciation heh-FY-stuhs, but agree with the rest. D aniel (‽) 18:51, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was merely transposing the pronunciations given by Lambiam above (and in the WP article) to the system used in The World Book Encyclopedia. If you think those pronunciations are incorrect, and you can source yours, perhaps you should make a change in the article. Deor (talk) 19:13, 27 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

May 28

Translation from German to English

I would be very grateful if a user could please translate into English the following extract from a marriage registration:

Col 3 - Ort, wo die Trauung vollzogen wurde: II, Tempelg.[asse 3]. im Gemeindetempel Col 4 - Angabe der beigebrachten Zeugnisse und Documente: Ehe-Einwilligung der mj. [minderjהhrigen] Braut von ihrem Vater Wien, 14. Feber 1887; Ehe-Licenz der Braut Ministerium Budapest, den 26.2.1887 Z. 8465

Thank you. Simonschaim (talk) 04:33, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Don't know about "Col" it may be an old form. The German word for column would be "Spalte". You'll have to see if someone else knows or leave it.

Col 3 - Site of the ceremony: II, Tempelgasse 3, in the parish/community temple Col 4 - Record of the certificates and documents submitted: father's parental consent to the wedding for the underage bride, Vienna, February 14, 1887, marriage license of/for the bride Budapest ministry, Feb. 26, 1887 record number 8465

(The expressions / are alternatives, since I don't know enough of the facts to be sure). Hope this helps. --Lisa4edit (talk) 05:00, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"Kolumne" (in 19th century spelling also "Columne") can also be used for a column on a printed page, just like "Spalte". "Parish" isn't usually in English to refer to Jewish congregations. I'd say "community temple" or "congregation temple". I'd say "bride's marriage license" for "Ehe-Licenz der Braut". —An gr 05:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

El resto de/The rest of/La reste de

Is there a Latin cognate for the phrase "the rest of," which appears in English, Spanish, and French (at least)? Theshibboleth (talk) 05:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

One possibility is reliquus/a/um, which is the root of the English "relic", as it was also used for the remains of a dead body (holy or not). Another possibility, which requires a different construction than "the rest of" in English but has a similar meaning, is "huiusmodi" (or separated as "huius modi") which means "of this sort"; you could have a bunch of nouns, "et huiusmodi". I guess the actual cognate would be "restare", which turned into Old French and Modern French "rester" ("rest" as in relaxation is a completely different Germanic word). But "restare" apparently doesn't have a past participle to use as a noun. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:24, 28 May 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.210.170.49 (talk) [reply]

So does that mean a phrase like "the rest of" may have existed in Latin that is cognate to the word rest also? Theshibboleth (talk) 05:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Well, sort of - but you would have to use "restare" with some other nouns, since there is no noun that can be made from "restare". So if you want to stay "the rest of the books", for example, you can say "reliqui libri", or "libri qui restant" ("the books that remain"). Adam Bishop (talk) 05:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Could the present participle be used (like restans/restantia)? --Lambiam 06:01, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, there is one example of the present participle being used like that by Vergil in Lewis and Short, but otherwise all the examples are finite verbs. Adam Bishop (talk) 06:23, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A little online searching turned up a passage in Ammianus Marcellinus: "hactenus super Alpibus. nunc ad restantia veniamus" (second passage here). So restantia could clearly be used to mean "the rest," but I'm not sure whether it was ever used (with the genitive?) in a construction corresponding to "the rest of …"

The Medieval Latin Word List from British and Irish Sources contains an entry for a noun resta (or restum) with the meaning "remainder, residue," but that may be a formation based on the vernacular rather than a direct development from restare. Deor (talk) 13:15, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

burrstone

In the book it is written that "the soil consists of burrstone pebbles". I learned that synonim to the word "burrstone" is "buhrstone" of which millstones are made. But I can't translate it into Russian as there is no such geological term (I presume)in Russian language. Is there any other name of burrstone in English to approach the term to Russian and find in in the dictionary? Thank you.--88.84.200.1 (talk) 10:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Petrologically speaking, "buhrstone" (the usual spelling, it seems) can refer to many different types of rock, all suitable for the making of millstones. With this in mind, we can call any of these rocks "millstone" as well, according to the Dictionary of Mining, Mineral, and Related Terms. So, it would be all right to write "the soil consists of millstone pebbles" in English, and I suppose that if Russian also refers to any type of rock that makes good millstones as "millstone", we're in business. --Milkbreath (talk) 10:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Or maybe you can find something that says "a rough hard quartz rock" in Russian. --71.236.23.111 (talk) 10:45, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Doe? What does 'does mean here? If it is a misspell of what word?

Russia should ‘’show greater tolerance doe political dissent, and none for immunity on human rights abuses in Chechnya.” (from cnn.com) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.168.3.246 (talk) 12:36, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a link? Fribbler (talk) 12:40, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like a typo - F and R are right beside D and E, someone's left hand must not have been aligned with the keyboard properly. Adam Bishop (talk) 12:49, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, it was not CNN but the NYTimes. here is the link. "for" sounds plausible.217.168.3.246 (talk) 13:02, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Just to put this to bed: here is the original Amnesty International source with "for" in place of "doe". Fribbler (talk) 13:16, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

That raises another question: how can someone misspell a citation? Wouldn't it be much logical to just copy and paste it? 217.168.3.246 (talk) 14:20, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) I'd reckon they were working form a print version of either the press release, or the full report, since as you pointed out, a copy-and-paste from another electronic source couldn't result in a typo. Fribbler (talk) 14:25, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

What I find disturbing is that the New York Times is using a spellchecker instead of an editor. That would never have gotten past a human being. --Milkbreath (talk) 15:44, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Lots of publishers think they don't need to hire proofreaders anymore since spellcheckers were invented. —An gr 17:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

And even a person writing their very first professional piece, or an examination piece, knows not to rely totally on spell checkers. They're useful, but only up to a point. We see far more spelling errors appearing in print since the advent of spell checkers than was the case before. Publishers could not possibly not be aware of this, but many of them don't really seem to care. Progress has definitely been retrograde in this area. I lie awake at nights worrying about it. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:22, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Meanwhile: I have contacted the NYT and they have corrected the spell. 217.168.3.246 (talk) 19:07, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Subject headline

Hi there, which one is correct form:

Application for the position of "Part time job"
Application for the "Part time job" position

Thanks in advance--202.56.7.162 (talk) 16:51, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The second is better than the first, but it is correct only if it refers to a position advertised precisely as "Part time job". Otherwise, there should be no quotation marks, you need a hyphen to link the compound modifier, and you should eliminate "job", since "job" and "position" are synonymous and therefore redundant:

Application for the part-time position

Marco polo (talk) 17:26, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Are you sure you would not rather like to mention the job that you are applying for rather than the work hour conditions. To me this sounds as if you don't know or don't care what the job is as long as you can work part time. Unless they have openings for both a part time and a full time whatchmaydoer, just mentioning the job title would work better for me. --71.236.23.111 (talk) 22:03, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Needing substitute for trite cliché

While LOCE'ing an article, I came across the phrase "... a popular aftermarket addition to cars among the Beverly Hills rich and famous." If I'm not mistaken, "rich and famous" is an oft-used, banal phrase for the famous, high-income movie or television stars. Is there any more creative phrase to replace this...er...chestnut? --^La Pianista! 17:34, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"In-crowd" but I think that would possibly be even worse. --Lisa4edit (talk) 19:41, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"among the chichi of Beverly Hills." "among Beverly Hills celebrities." "among the Beverly Hills nouveaux riches." Not knowing what it is makes it impossible to gauge the right amount of sneer to put into it. --Milkbreath (talk) 21:46, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"The affluent few" would be a bit more neutral. It would also lose a lot of meaning for most users. --71.236.23.111 (talk) 22:11, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Jianhe River

Our Tangjiashan Lake lists this as the name of the river causing the lake. It isn't on our List of rivers of China and as far as I can tell it translates to "river river" river. Do we have something wrong here? Rmhermen (talk) 20:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Hi. If I remember correctly, "Jianghe" river would be "river-river" river, but I don't think the same is true for "Jianhe". Also, if the ending already has "he" (river), I don't see why should add another "river" to the end. Also, if I remember correctly, "Jiang" is often used for larger rivers, such as the Chang Jiang. Thanks. ~A H 1^(TCU) 22:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

CNN had Jinahe but some German sites only had "Jian" river. The whole thing reminds me of a Diskworld novel where they had mountains called "another mountain" and "who's this idiot who doesn't know what a mountain is" in the local language, due to the fact that visiting cartographers had pointed at a geographic feature and ask a local guide what it was called :-)--71.236.23.111 (talk) 23:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

^ The Chicago Manual of Style, 15th edition, p. 356. 2003. ISBN 0-226-10403-6.

[1] The Chicago Manual of Style, 15th edition, p. 356. 2003. ISBN 0-226-10403-6.

[1]

@@ Line 306: / Line 306: @@
 Our [[Tangjiashan Lake]] lists this as the name of the river causing the lake. It isn't on our [[List of rivers of China]] and as far as I can tell it translates to "river river" river. Do we have something wrong here? [[User:Rmhermen|Rmhermen]] ([[User talk:Rmhermen|talk]]) 20:59, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
 :Hi. If I remember correctly, "Jianghe" river would be "river-river" river, but I don't think the same is true for "Jianhe". Also, if the ending already has "he" (river), I don't see why should add another "river" to the end. Also, if I remember correctly, "Jiang" is often used for larger rivers, such as the [[Yangtze River|Chang Jiang]]. Thanks. ~<font color="blue">[[User:AstroHurricane001/A|A]][[User:AstroHurricane001|H]][[User:AstroHurricane001/D|1]]</font><sup>([[User:AstroHurricane001/T|T]][[Special:Contributions/AstroHurricane001|C]][[User:AstroHurricane001/U|U]])</sup> 22:12, 28 May 2008 (UTC)
+:: CNN had Jinahe but some German sites only had "Jian" river.  The whole thing reminds me of a [[Diskworld]] novel where they had mountains called "''another mountain''" and "''who's this idiot who doesn't know what a mountain is''" in the local language, due to the fact that visiting cartographers had pointed at a geographic feature and ask a local guide what it was called :-)--[[Special:Contributions/71.236.23.111|71.236.23.111]] ([[User talk:71.236.23.111|talk]]) 23:21, 28 May 2008 (UTC)