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April 10

Overwhelmed vs. Underwhelmed

I'm interested to see if there are any more antitheses like this. 'Underwhelmed' seems to have recently come into regular usage, and I am all for it. It's a lovely word. But what I would like to ask is, while 'Overwhelmed' might mean 'something really powerful happened to me' and 'underwhelmed' might mean 'something totally powerless happened [today]', a poster above put forward the hypothetical word 'whelmed', which would mean 'something totally normal happened'. I'm interested in knowing how many words might actually be in usage which have these three levels - i.e. not enough, normal, and too much, and if there are none, how many can we make with our beautiful language of suffixes and prefixes?--KageTora (talk) 02:21, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Understated - stated - overstated; underdeveloped - developed - overdeveloped --Dr Dima (talk) 02:38, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think we could have some fun with "disgruntled" - gruntled, overgruntled, undergruntled, transgruntled, hypergruntled, perigruntled, regruntled, pregruntled, postgruntled, circumgruntled (that might apply to pigs) ... so many possibilities, so little time. :) -- JackofOz (talk) 02:43, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Overtake, take (to know carnally?), undertake. Please don't over/under-react. Sundardas (talk) 04:57, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A curious one is inept and "ept". Clearly ept is not a word. However the OED points out that inept comes from in- + aptus APT. So much for that one. Another one is unkempt. Clearly kempt is not a word. Oh but is it, at least in the OED. kempt, ppl. a. Of hair or wool: Combed. Also with advs., as well-kempt, etc. Cf. UNKEMPT. The things you can learn from the OED.. Pfly (talk) 05:58, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See also the article on unpaired word. Back to the question on triplets: there seem to be many verbs and past particples existing on all three levels. I started with wiktionary special pages with prefix = "undera" and found triplets for the following verbs A-F:

(over-/under-)achieve, act, apply, bet, bid, capitalize, charge, clock, cook, cool, count, damp, do, dose, dress, eat, educate, estimate, exaggerate, explain, feed, fund, ...

May have missed some, might continue later. Wiktionary doesn't know " overfucked". ---Sluzzelin talk 06:16, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What was it now? That phrase that used to apply to American soldiers in the UK during WW2? 'Overpaid, over-sexed, and over 'ere'?--KageTora (talk) 10:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nice one! I particularly like Jack's massive applications of the 'gruntled' stem. I was going to ask to disclude that word from any answers, as all I could think of was the opposite of 'disgruntled' being (logically) 'gruntled' and that it was an old joke, but Jack has taken it to a whole new level!--KageTora (talk) 06:28, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Underwhelmed is a great song by the Canadian band Sloan, in which the singer inform us that it is not a word, because he looked it up. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:54, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An amusing list by Jack Winter appears in Talk:Unpaired_word#Story. Certes (talk) 01:47, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently over in overwhelmed is already an intensive, as whelm means to turn something upside down over something, notably as when your boat capsizes. That's when you're literally overwhelmed. --Wetman (talk) 02:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

need translation "je suis médusé"

I'd like to add a small piece to our current FAOTD. In Asterix the Legionary, our heroes beat the tar out of a group of pirates. Shown floating on a raft in a manner similar to the The Raft of the Medusa, the captain remarks, "Je suis médusé!" The "pun" part is that he seems to be saying, "I am like the raft of the Medusa", while actually saying something else. What does that phrase actually mean? Online translators say it means "I am jellyfish", so I'm guessing there's some kind of idiom involved. Incidentally, the English translators may have surpassed the originals; in the English version, the captain says, "We've been framed, by Jericho!" Matt Deres (talk) 14:12, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It would be like saying "What do we have in common with paintings? We have both been framed." I don't know the context, framed could mean the pirates were accused of something they didnt do, or the visual of comic frame could look like the painting and that would make his words a metajoke that breaks the fourth wall. Livewireo (talk) 14:17, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Je suis médusé literally means "I'm petrified", in reference to the effect Medusa had on people. —An gr 14:23, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A little less literal: "stupefied". Equendil Talk 14:33, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"I'm Medusafied!" Wrad (talk) 17:14, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, Angr, Equendil; much appreciated. I appreciate your effort, Livewireo, but you answered the statement part of my post and not the question... Matt Deres (talk) 17:09, 10 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The "jellyfish" translation could be a reference to the Medusa jellyfish species, cf. Medusa (biology). As in Davy Jones comes a-callin' and all that? -- Fullstop (talk) 17:35, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

April 11

Ukrainian town name

Some of my ancestors came from a rather obscure town in the Zhitomir oblast called Pavoloch (Паволоч). Just based on the intuition of someone who's familiar with Russian or Ukrainian, what syllable do you think the stress would be on in that name? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 00:42, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do not know the answer, but I can refer you to the article Ukrainian phonology and to http://forvo.com/.

Ukrainian Wikipedia has a very short article at uk:Паволоч, and English Wikipedia has a currently red link at List of shtetls.

Category:Wikipedians by language has a link to Category:User uk. -- Wavelength (talk) 03:46, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This page spells it with a soft sign at the end. There is much information about Pavoloch at this page. See also Zhytomyr Oblast.

I did a Google search for the words "Паволоч радіо", but found nothing audible. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:55, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here is another informative page. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:43, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[I added a currently red piped link (red link) to one of my earlier comments. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:16, 11 April 2009 (UTC)][reply]

List of shtetls lists Drohobych, whose name is said to have a penultimate stress. I do not know how much of an indication that is of whether Pavoloch is similarly paroxytone. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:51, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is there a god of elections?

There is a god of love, there is a god of war. Is there a god of elections? Or at least a patron saint? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.5.17 (talk) 07:57, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not that I could find ... although St. Thomas More ("A Man for All Seasons") is the "patron saint of statesmen and politicians". (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 08:09, 11 April 2009 (UTC))[reply]

For ancient Greek democracy you could have Peitho goddess of persuasion or Zeus Agoraea meaning Zeus of popular assemblies. St. Chad is sometimes comically referred to the patron saint of disputed elections. meltBanana 12:50, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems difficult to find such a god, as elections are supposed to be a tool of modern societies, whereas gods are typical of archaic ones. If you ask more generally for deities of democracy, I would certainly vote for the Eumenides. Anyway, as our society seems definitely going back to an irrational stage, I would say that one day there will be such a god, one to pray and to offer sacrifices to, before and after elections. There will be a god also for cell phones and computers, to explain why they work. --pma (talk) 19:47, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That said pma, we have some fairly modern patron saints: Isidore of Seville patron saint of the internet, Joseph of Cupertino patron saint of astronauts, Saint Michael patron saint of paratroopers and Bernardino of Siena patron saint of advertising and PR. 163.1.176.253 (talk) 20:46, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, your idea of Christian saints seems a good source. There is St. Chad; unfortunately his patronage for elections is only a joke. Talking about saints, let's recall Santa Bona, patron saint of the hostesses [1] (and this is not a (bad sexist) joke, although it looks like, for bona in Italian is a jargon for "attractive/sexy girl"). --pma (talk) 00:31, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dharma dolls as used in Japanese elections are sort of like that. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 02:54, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Shifting religious viewpoints, there's always St. Jude. --- OtherDave (talk) 15:58, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Dita Saxova - the movie

With great interest I watched the Czech movie titled "Dita Saxova". Unfortunately, despite the fact that I understand written Czech quite well, I was not able to figure out all the details of conversations. Would somebody be willing to help with a few sound snippets from it?

For example: at 56:12 (PAL timing) the bar tender briefly interrupts the lawyer who is talking about mob in Varnsdorf. What is the bartender saying?

At 52:43, the bartender asks a young guy what he wants to drink and he responds. What is he saying?

I have a few more of these... if somebody is willing to help me I could provide sound/video snippets.

212.14.48.55 (talk) 09:53, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Have you checked whether the film has subtitles for the deaf? Even if they are only in Czech, that should help. Certes (talk) 01:37, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It does but they are very inaccurate, skipping a lot of dialogue. Actually I understand more by listening than what they have in writing.

212.14.48.55 (talk) 09:53, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have a copy of the movie (never seen it, in fact), but if you post the relevant video clips here I can give it a try. — Emil J. 16:19, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Melvin Mouron Belli

Am I correct in assuming that his middle name is pronounced Moo-RAWN, and is the French word for pimpernel? Our article doesn't give a pronunciation, but it states that his mother was partly of Swiss-French ancestry. I just want to be sure that it isn't pronounced like "moron". LANTZY ^TALK 19:07, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If it's a French word, the vowel in the last syllable is more close – /o/ rather than /ɔ/ – and it's nasalized rather than being followed by /n/, but yeah. —Tamfang (talk) 07:52, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Name of Type of Joke

"What's the difference between a seagull catching fish and a naughty dog?" "One flits across the shore." What's the name of this type of joke?--KageTora (talk) 21:41, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

what is the joke, please? Oh.... spoiler: ~~it's a spoonerism~~ 79.122.103.33 (talk) 22:56, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hence the album by Caravan called Cunning Stunts. Tonywalton ^Talk 23:27, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

KageTora's particular example is a spoonerism, but this type of joke need not involve spoonerism. For example, there's no spoonerism in "What's the difference between a pickpocket and Jimmy Swaggart? — "One snatches watches...". I'm afraid I don't know the name for this particular genre of joke, or if indeed it has a name. —An gr 16:14, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say this relies on a spoonerism. Seegoon (talk) 03:05, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, because "snatch" and "watch" have different vowels, and a spoonerism is just switching the initial consonant sounds. —An gr 05:43, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Trains

Getting ready to work on the end of the article: What would be the plural for "Caboose"? Not sure if it pluralizes as does Moose, or if it changes as does Goose? 23:01, 11 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 174.153.93.240 (talk)

Cabooses is the correct plural. Deor (talk) 23:11, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What do you use for your source document? CSX (Eastern US Railroad) uses Cabeese. 174.146.162.50 (talk) 23:20, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Per Caboose it's "cabooses", however Caboose#Etymology states there is "some disagreement". Tonywalton ^Talk 23:30, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, and that paragraph is unsourced. Do you have any reliable sources that the plural is other than cabooses? Deor (talk) 23:38, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can fax you a page from the CSX maintenance manual. What is the fax number to Wikipedia? 174.152.72.144 (talk) 23:43, 11 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Caboose#Etymology (not a Reliable source) states 'A less-seriously used pluralization of the word is "cabeese," ... almost universally used in an attempt at humor'. I'd go for cabooses, as does wiktionary. Certes (talk) 01:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have looked at four Oxfords, three Websters, one Compton, one Chambers and one MacQuarie and not a single one even hints at a plural form. Every one sticks tightly to "n. s". No help there, I am sorry to say. // BL \\ (talk) 03:14, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The reason most dictionaries don't mention a plural is that the plural is regular: "cabooses". Checking various dictionaries under onelook.com, I find only one that mentions it -- Encarta -- and it says "cabooses". "Cabeese" is a joke or a mistake. --Anonymous railfan, 04:01 UTC, April 12, 2009.

I think 'cabeese' is due to TMRC. Here in the UK, they're called 'guard's vans' anyway. AlexTiefling (talk) 00:20, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I worked in the U.S. railroad industry for 11 years and never heard or saw "cabeese." Googling just now, I have the impression that those using "cabeese" are either railfans or model railroaders. (This is a comment, not a criticism.) --- OtherDave (talk) 16:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

April 12

spanish translation

how do you say or how would you say wedge issue in spanish —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.192.120 (talk) 00:27, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You could call it an asunto divisivo or asunto polémico, but there doesn't seem to be an equivalent idiom using the 'wedge' metaphor. LANTZY ^TALK 09:02, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Conservative bias

If a person is said to have 'conservative bias', would this usually refer to them being biased in favor of or against conservatives? 72.200.101.17 (talk) 02:24, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The word "bias" without qualification usually means a bias towards something, rather than a bias against something. A bias against conservatives could be an "anti-conservative bias". -- JackofOz (talk) 02:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

X bias could reasonably be taken to mean a bias typical of X; this reading will usually make the sense obvious. (A counterexample: as a heterosexual male, do I have a male bias or a female bias? I'd avoid the form altogether!) —Tamfang (talk) 22:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Media bias supports the above claims, with "X bias" used in various senses, although it's not a great article. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 12:45, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Which word is correct (on or of)? Or are both correct (on and of)?

Here is the sentence I am asking about:

Your entries in this forum are a reflection on all of your writing. Your entries in this forum are a reflection of all of your writing.

Should this problem have a Wikipedia entry? If so, should I research this also? How do I start putting together a Wikipedia entry? Zensunim (talk) 08:22, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The sentences mean different things. The first phrasing, "reflection on all your writing", suggests a piece of writing that might produce an impression or prejudice about the author's body of work, in the same way that one might say "These entries reflect poorly on your abilities as a writer." The second phrasing, "reflection of all your writing", suggests a piece of writing that is emblematic or typical of the author's body of work, as in "These entries are typical of your writing style."

I don't see how this is a "problem" in need of a Wikipedia entry. (Indeed, I'm puzzled as to why you use the word "problem" at all). "Reflection on" is different from "reflection of" because they employ different prepositions. LANTZY ^TALK 09:16, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

language

Do non written languages exist? (meaning languages that are only spoken) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.212.4.39 (talk) 12:32, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, all languages were unwritten until a little more than 5,000 years ago... AnonMoos (talk) 12:38, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, of course. In fact, of the roughly 6800 languages spoken today, very few of them have writing systems. However, it is difficult to give a precise figure due to limited data. This is a natural consequence though: all natural languages begin verbally; only some develop writing systems. 124.214.131.55 (talk) 12:59, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And of course, there are also non-written languages that are not spoken: sign languages. LANTZY ^TALK 13:15, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sign languages are now written languages. See http://www.signwriting.org/. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:11, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Translation needed from French: "lices"

I'm trying to translate the word "lices" from French (no no, nothing to do with Louses), which proves pretty tricky, I just cannot find a suitable translation.

The French word relates to one of three things (medieval context):

The enclosure demarcating a fortified place.
An enclosed, outdoor area delimited by such an enclosure, which gave the expression "entrer en lice" meaning "entering the competition ground" in the context of a tournament.
(plural) the area between and delimited by two sets of defensive walls.

That's the third idea I'm interested in, though it's nearly equivalent to the second. As it happens, the English vocabulary for medieval architecture/warfare is largely borrowed from French, however, that particular word was not, and I'm currently thinking there is just no equivalent word in English. Being quite a specific term, I'm having a hell of a trouble coming up with something better than "the area between the walls". Any idea ? Equendil Talk 13:15, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the word is lists. --Cam (talk) 13:56, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, here is a diagram of Carcasonne where the space between the enceintes is called the "lists". --Cam (talk) 14:01, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lists is the equivalent of "lices" but that is usually limited to the competition ground for jousting, as in Equendil's second definition. I don't think that's quite right for a part of a castle. According to the French article it could be either "barrier" or "palisade", although a palisade is just a wooden fence, in my mind. Originally this was the bailey part of a motte and bailey castle, but I'm not sure if that term was used for concentric castles. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:09, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, I had dismissed that word as having too narrow a usage (tournaments) and for being probably unknown to the vast majority of english speakers (though not being one myself, I'm not quite sure about that), but it's interesting you found it on a diagram of Carcassonne (can't see it from the link though). Would a native speaker recognise that word at all (as something else than the plural of a common list of course) ?

Pragmatically, maybe I should just stick with the French word italicised (and defined on first use), that way there won't be any confusion. How does that sound ? Equendil Talk 14:17, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think a native English speaker would recognize what "lists" meant, unless they happened to know the terminology associated with duels and jousting. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:48, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In writing on specialized subjects, sometimes it's best to use a word that some people don't already know. —Tamfang (talk) 22:29, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This plate uses the word ballium, which I suppose is also not a widely known English word. However, I agree with Tamfang in that it might be entirely appropriate to use a not commonly known word if it exactly matches the original word. This is kind of begging the question how many native readers of French would instantly recognize the word lices - if not too many (as I suspect), using an uncommon but exact word in the translation would be very appropriate. -- Ferkelparade π 22:49, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In that case, that's just the Latin(ish) form of "bailey", which might be more recognizable than "lists". Adam Bishop (talk) 23:57, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fortification is not my specialty, but wouldn't, at least in some cases, "outer ward" describe such an area? Deor (talk) 00:09, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lists is indeed a specialist term used for tournament or jousting enclosures, and would not be appropriate for an architectural term. The English equivalent for use 3 is outer ward, as Deor suggests. See, for example, this plan of Beaumaris Castle. Gwinva (talk) 01:32, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Outer bailey" also shows up as an equivalent on Google (I'm still sticking to bailey!). Adam Bishop (talk) 01:50, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, she was my favorite character on WKRP in Cincinnati. Hubba, hubba! Ward (Leave It to Beaver), on the other hand, not so much. Deor (talk) 22:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Overuseismism? Ismism?

I feel that sometimes or often I hear -ism "overused" to create sort of obscure -isms. So is there a -ism or other term for overusing -ism? (If it exists, I hope it ends in -ismism) chan dler ··· 21:40, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It might be considered a snowclone. —Tamfang (talk) 22:26, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds like a form of lexical reification. The best neologism I can think of on the spot would probably be "over-ismification" (sorry it doesn't end in "ism"). AnonMoos (talk) 02:08, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We can soon fix that. A person who regularly does this could be an "overismificationist", and he would be said to be promoting the cause of "overismificationism". :) -- JackofOz (talk) 22:40, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Too many letters to use in Scrabble, though. Deor (talk) 22:53, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

'Over-ismification' immediately suggests the Arabic word اِسْم (ism: 'name') and makes me think of some sort of Arabic nominalisation. --ColinFine (talk) 09:49, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

spanish translation (2)

how do you say hut in spanish? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.192.120 (talk) 23:05, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is it easier to say "there are hundreds of online dictionaries out there", or is it easier to say una choza or possibly una cabaña. Tonywalton ^Talk 23:19, 12 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

LOL thanks for the sarcasm!! hey with the online dictionaries you can never tell if its a good translation or not plus wiktionary was silent on the issue mutha fucka —Preceding unsigned comment added by IamGoshathehomosexual (talk • contribs) 19:57, 14 April 2009

So what makes you think the quality of translation is better here. I have witnessed some horrible translations on these pages. Think it through, think it through. Richard Avery (talk) 08:19, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

April 13

Created language

Has there ever been a case where two people--let's call them Romulus and Remus--grew up deprived from human contact and created a language that only they knew or at least been apparently able to communicate fully with each other but not with others around them? I don't mean languages invented like Esperanto but something from more like feral children (even if their "feral" upbringing was really just terrible mistreatment such as her). zafiroblue05 | Talk 03:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Idioglossia is a private, invented language. Poto and Cabengo (referred to in the article as the Kennedy twins) seem to be close to what you're after. Clarityfiend (talk) 04:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Nicaraguan Sign Language is not exactly an example, but it is rather similar. --ColinFine (talk) 09:45, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Christ is risen

How would you translate 'Christ is risen' into Spanish? Obviously 'Cristo' + some form of 'levantar', but the tense is confusing me. 72.200.101.17 (talk) 03:11, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Christ is risen" is meant to indicate "right now, in the present", as part of the annual-renewal symbolism of the Easter celebration. I can't think but that the phrase would be in the same tense in any language. For what it's worth, Babelfish says the Spanish would be: Se levanta Cristo. // BL \\ (talk) 03:23, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At http://multilingualbible.com/1_corinthians/15-20.htm, you can see five Spanish translations (one in the first column and four in the third column) and the Early Modern English ~~perfect passive~~ is ... risen in the Authorized King James Version in the first column.

-- Wavelength (talk) 03:37, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am striking out the expression "perfect passive". -- Wavelength (talk) 03:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At the Orthodox Wiki's article "Paschal Greeting" [2], the Spanish form is presented as Cristo ha resucitado!, as in Wavelength's link.

Apparently, Christ is risen as in AKJV 1 Co 15:20, is better translated as Cristo ha resucitado (tense similar to the present perfect). In this aspect, a past action (reviving) has effects still in conection with present times.
However, taken in isolation, the phrase Christ is risen would be normally translated as Cristo resucita, and has the continuous and recurrent aspect mentioned by BL. Pallida Mors 21:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Consubstantiation and Transubstantiation. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:52, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

French translations: 2

In a particular context, how would I say "I have three here and four at home."? Would the translation be, "J'en ai trois ici et en ai quatre chez moi."? I am unsure of the use of "ici" because the translation seems to literal, and I am also unsure of the use of "en ai quatre chez moi". Would it also be correct and redundant to say, "J'en ai trois ici et j'en ai quatre chez moi."? What would be the best way to express this? Note that, this is not homework - I am independently learning French from "Heath's Practical French Grammar" and have absolutely no-one to converse with or ask for help. I therefore come here if I am unsure of some translations. Thankyou for your help. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 06:22, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What is the particular context? -- Wavelength (talk) 06:42, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A person having asked you where your boxes are. It doesn't really matter though for the purposes of this translation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 07:10, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're right, the context doesn't matter and I don't know why Wavelength asked for it. It sounds like a casual conversation to me, so I would say that "J'ai trois ici et quatre chez moi" would be fine. You don't need the "en" in the first part or the "en ai" in the second. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 07:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I asked for it only because the original poster began by saying In a particular context, implying that it did matter, although I knew that I would receive a big surprise if I learned that there was actually a particular context where it did matter.

-- Wavelength (talk) 07:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Richard. My textbook is from 1901 and according to it, one must always use "en" when "some" is an object. When "some" is used as in "I have some books" then it is "de" + "definite article". Is this correct? I am just concerned whether things have changed since 1901 (so to say "I have none", would it be "Je n'en ai pas"?). —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 08:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think you would be fine in conversation without the en. Written French would require it. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 08:51, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Apologies for asking too many questions but what would be the best way to express, "I have three here and four at home", in writing (if you were to write such a thing in literature)? I am unsure between the following:

a) J'en ai trois ici et quatre chez moi.

b) J'en ai trois ici et j'en ai quatre chez moi.

c) J'en ai trois ici et en quatre chez moi.

Thanks again! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.161.138.117 (talk) 10:12, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Don't apologise, it's what we're here for. In writing I would go with (a), unless you want to be really emphatic about it, in which case you could go with (b). (c) doesn't sound right to me. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 10:24, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

One name for "en" is the partitive prounoun (often literalistically translatable as "of it", "of them" etc.). The words "en" and "y" as pronouns always need to be closely connected to a verb, usually preceding it (just like other clitic pronouns, such as me, te, se etc.), so sentences such as (c) are right out... AnonMoos (talk) 11:41, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I am utterly unable to formalise the structure of a language, French included, however, that's my native language, so I guess I can help:

"J'en ai trois ici et quatre chez moi" sounds natural ("I have three of them here and four at home")
"J'en ai trois ici et j'en ai quatre chez moi" is correct but needlessly repetitive ("I have three of them here and I have four of them at home")
"J'ai trois ici et quatre chez moi" omits the object which does not work in French (sounds like "I have three of here and four at home").
"J'en ai trois ici et en quatre chez moi" is missing the verb for which there is an object "en" which does not work either (sounds like "I have three of them here and I four of them at home" - though here it's the subject begging for a verb).

Equendil Talk 14:07, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seeking children's book for beginner learner of Italian

I recall seeing cartoon-like books that are for beginner children learning french, maybe mostly about vocablurary. Can anyone give the title of anything similar for learning Italian please. preferably from British English? 78.147.153.8 (talk) 10:57, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is Let's Learn ITALIAN Picture Dictionary. I found it by doing a Google search for the search string "italian picture dictionary".

-- Wavelength (talk) 15:27, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I made a mistake in my comment. The search string was "italian picture vocabulary". -- Wavelength (talk) 17:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder whether you're thinking of Usborne Books' First Thousand Words in ... series? They cover many different languages. First Thousand Words in Italian is still in print; see here. Ka renjc 18:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Even though the sentence which begins I wonder ... seems to imply a question, it functions grammatically as a statement, so the punctuation at the end should be a period instead of a question mark. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In British english, you mean a full stop. 78.146.249.32 (talk) 12:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I probably was thinking of the Usborne Books. I'd also be interested in any other books to teach Italian to young children. Thanks. 78.146.249.32 (talk) 12:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can someone covert this to english? I nicked it from the image page as it seemed more appropriate here

L'ARRIVEE DES SŒURS A ALEXANDRIE En 1917, trois sœurs arrivent à Alexandrie, répondant à une demande de Mgr Briante, faite par télégramme "urgent", pour le soin des blessés de la première guerre mondiale,dans une clinique appartenant à un médecin français. Après la guerre cette œuvre sera bien vite remplacée par une école.
NAISSANCE DU PROJET En 1923, est formé le projet d'une école (avec un pensionnat annexe). Celle-ci appartenant à la Communauté Grecque Catholique, est située à Abou Dardar. C'est en 1932 que naît le projet d'une construction plus grande, pour l'école devenue trop petite. Achat du terrain et construction sont décidés, dans le quartier neuf de Chatby, en face du Collège Saint Marc.
OUVERTURE DE L'ECOLE Le 31 mai 1933, Mgr Nuti, vicaire apostolique latin d'Alexandrie, autorise l'ouverture d'un orphelinat gratuit, pensionnat, école au quartier de Chatby. C'est en 1934 que l'école sera en mesure d'assurer ses objectifs. Les élèves étaient surtout des jeunes filles d'origine étrangère dont les colonies étaient nombreuses, à l'époque, à Alexandrie : grecque, italienne, allemande, française, arménienne...etc Ces différentes colonies avaient leurs propres quartiers et composaient la population alexandrine. Aprés leur disparition, dans les années soixantes, l' école est devenue au service d' élèves toutes égyptiennes. La communauté religieuse comprenait alors 17 sœurs. En 1991, un Centre a été construit dans le jardin, c'est le "Centre de l'Amour" pour les enfants handicapés.
L'ECOLE AUJOURD'HUI L'école, aujourd'hui, comprend 999 élèves,38 PS,38 CA allant du Jardin d'Enfants aux classes terminales; ces filles viennent de divers milieux sociaux: classe aisée, classe moyenne, enfants d'employés et cas sociaux. La Direction est confiée à Madame Marie-Thérèse DAROUS, ancienne élève de l'école. L'Enseignement est assuré par des laïcs. Les Religieuses les accompagnent dans leur vocation éducative et donnent un souffle spirituel et éducatif à l'établissement. Elles assurent surtout le souffle donné à la catéchèse et tiennent une grande place dans l'organisation et l'administration .
LES OBJECTIFS DE L'ECOLE L'objectif de l'école est l'éducation et l'instruction de jeunes filles égyptiennes, de toutes classes sociales dans la plus grande tolérance. Les professeurs dispensent un enseignement des langues : arabe, français, anglais et de toutes les disciplines académiques prévues par le Ministère Egyptien de l'Education et de l'Enseignement. L'école tient à la formation de toute la personne, c'est pourquoi elle favorise les activités culturelles, sportives, artistiques et sociales. Un autre objectif important est l'éducation que l'école privilégie, en collaboration avec les parents, car ces jeunes sont les femmes, les mères de demain et préparent l'avenir du pays.

I deem this block of text be more useful on the article page instead of the image page, can someone please help as I am a complete novice in french. Gsmgm (talk) 14:33, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In turn, they nicked it from http://membres.lycos.fr/antide/ecole.html. I suppose we could translate it, but you wouldn't be able to use such translation in our article anyway. No such user (talk) 14:43, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Someone more qualified in French can continue, but I think it begins:

THE ARRIVAL OF THE SISTERS TO ALEXANDRIA In 1917, three sisters [likely refers to nuns] arrived at Alexandria in response to a request from Mr. Briante, made by an "urgent" telegram.

I'm not really qualified to make a full accurate translation, but it looks like this is about a girls' Catholic school and/or orphanage in Egypt, its founding, and goals. 68.227.202.7 (talk) 14:48, 13 April 2009 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.227.202.7 (talk) 14:47, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, after viewing the original source, I deem this block of text(althou useful) is perhaps a blatant copyright infringement, and hereby closing this topic. Gsmgm (talk) 17:00, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here is a translation:

Arrival of the sisters in Alexandria. In 1917, three sisters came to Alexandria, responding to a request from Mgr (Monseigneur?) Briante in an "urgent" telegram, to care for the wounded of the first world war, in a clinic belonging to a French physician. After the war, this charity was soon replaced by a school.

Birth of the project. In 1923, the project of a boarding school was formed. The school, belonging to the Greek Catholic Community, was located in Abou Dardar. In 1932, a project for a bigger edifice for the school deemed too small was born. Purchase of the land and construction were decided, the school would be in the quartier neuf de Chatby, facing the Saint Marc College.

Opening of the school. On the 31st of May 1933, Mgr Nuti, latin apostolic vicar of Alexandria, approved the opening of a free orphanage and boarding school in the quartier de Chatby. In 1934, the school could fullfil its objectives. Pupils were primarily young girls of foreign origin from the colonies that existed at the time in Alexandria : Greek, Italian, German, French, Armenian etc. Those various colonies each had their quarters and composed the population of Alexandria. Following their disappearance in the 60's, the school became at the service of egyptian only pupils. The religious community was then comprised of 17 sisters. In 1991, a Centre was built in the garden, the "Centre de l'Amour" for disabled children.

The school today. Nowadays, the school hosts 999 pupils, from kindergarten to high school; those girls come from various social classes: wealthy, middle class, working class, and welfare cases. The Direction is accorded to Madame Marie-Thérèse DAROUS, former student of the school. Teaching is provided by a laic staff. The nuns support them in their educative purpose, and bring a spiritual and educative touch to the institution. They most notably run the catéchèse (religious schooling) and hold an important place in the organisation and administration.

Objectives of the school. The objective of the shool is to educate and instruct the young egyptian girls of all social classes in the greatest tolerance. Languages are taught: Arabic, French, English in addition to all academic disciplines prescribed by the Egyptian Minister of Education. The school aims to provide a full development of the individual, therefore it favours cultural, sportive, artistic, and social activities, in collaboration with parents, because those pupils are the women, the mothers of tomorrow and the future of the country.

Might need some better phrasing, but then again, it's technically a copyvio, so I'm just translating for the information therein. Equendil Talk 17:49, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mgr. is Monsignor. Livewireo (talk) 14:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Need to write down Hindi script

I've made a transliteration of a Roman letter word into Devanagari script on a few websites and I've managed to get a result, but when I try to copy-paste it into MS Word 03 (it pastes as-is everywhere else!!) it appears as lots of boxes. Now I've tried to do this before and I've been able to use Insert>Symbol with the font Mangal to replicate what the result was manually, but with this word I cannot do that. Um, can someone tell me how I can paste it properly, or what order and number of symbols I need to input to get it? The transliteration is आर्चोएस्त्ररेल. It should be coming out as 'Arcoestrela' or similar, although I'm aware it probably is vaguely incorrect; I know the theory of how Devanagari works but unfortunately I do not know how to read it myself. I've reposted this from the Humanities desk as I missed the Language desk (silly) and not sure whether I should do likewise for the Computing desk. Lady BlahDeBlah (talk) 22:14, 13 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It appears to be correct except that the 'c', which (pronounced here as /k/) ought to become क, appears as च (palatal /č/, represented in Sanskrit transcription as 'c'); and you might want an explicit 'ã' at the end. —Tamfang (talk) 01:24, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not 100% sure what the problem is from your description (and it more belongs to the Computing desk), but here's a try. Open Control panel/Regional options. There you should see "Languages" tab; at its bottom, there are 2 check boxes in a group box "Supplemental language support". If they're unchecked, do check them (however, you may be asked to insert a Setup CD); otherwise, I'm not sure... When you check them, you should be able to see East Asian scripts in all programs, with all common fonts. No such user (talk) 06:53, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

April 14

Word or words that covers a particular kind of qualitative judgment

I'm in need of a word or words that encapsulates the idea of a qualitative judgment or measurement that has both subjective and objective cases.

For example, describing an object as "feels a little too hot to hold" is subjective, and describing another as "it's hot enough to melt skin" is objective. In other words, a qualitative measurement that at the lower end (or middle, depending on what's measured) of the spectrum, is subjective, but as you get further out, becomes more and more objective. ^Thanks, _{Luc "Somethingorother" French} 00:32, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Real word?

In the film Lord Jim, Jim is called twan (lord) by one of the natives he rescues. Is this a real word in Southeast Asia? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:51, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

tuan in Malay, i believe. —Tamfang (talk) 03:49, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, tuan is correct. Conrad, the novelist, had some other catchphrases as well, like inchi (sir), mem putih (white lady), tuan putih (white man), ada (yes), etc. --Omidinist (talk) 07:40, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Clarityfiend (talk) 08:27, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Swedish: "kort"

Resolved

Okay, as far as I know, the Swedish word for card, "kort", can also mean "photograph" (at least colloquially). What puzzles (and amuses) me, is that in contemporary usage it may refer to any type of photo, not just paper photographs, even in the context of taking photos ("ta kort"). Is my understanding correct?

For instance, would these sentences be okay in formal or semi-formal Swedish, or are they considered colloquialisms?

"Jag ska ta kort med min digitalkamera" (I am going to take photos with my digital camera)
"Hon laddade ner korten från Commons" (She downloaded the images from Commons)

decltype (talk) 09:01, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In my opinion (and my swedish friend's), this can be called polite swedish (with appropriate words before and after). Yes, "kort" is not only a verb, but also a noun. Regarding formality, in my honest opinion this is neither formal nor colloquialism. Gsmgm (talk) 09:11, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PS This would be ok everywhere DS Gsmgm (talk) 09:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your answer. To clarify: What I meant by "formal" was something like: Would it be appropriate to write "kort" in a (serious) newspaper article or textbook, as opposed to "fotografi / bild". Are you sure it is a verb? "att korta"? I know you can say "fota" (which I would consider rather informal).

Finally, what did you mean by DS? Thanks in advance. decltype (talk) 10:37, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

DS ends a PS, usually it is omitted. Personal habit. Gsmgm (talk) 14:07, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PS stands for 'Postscript; what does DS stand for? AlexTiefling (talk) 14:44, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"dictus", is my uneducated guess. decltype (talk) 19:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

PS is "Post scriptum". Per this DS is ""dĕindĕ scrīptum" ("in place of a signature"), however per this DS is a Swedish usage meaning "densamme" - [signed by] the same [person who signed the main letter]". 86.151.150.202 (talk) 19:56, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, that's probably right, except that it's "densamma" (ending with an a). decltype (talk) 10:23, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Jag ska ta kort med min digitalkamera" is correct ("Jag ska ta bilder med min digitalkamera" would not be correct imo). Though "Hon laddade ner korten från Commons" I would say that is not used. If you said that, I would think of it as cards, like it was a ID card, so that phrase might cause confusion, "att korta" is not used. chan dler ··· 10:45, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly! That's what I would think too, but I am almost 100% sure I have seen examples of the second usage, or very similar. What about: "Jag såg ett fint kort av David Villa på Flickr"? decltype (talk) 11:02, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, if you describe the card like that, you know its a photograph of Villa. But if you'd leave out "fint" and "av David Villa" there might be some confusion (not as much as "Hon laddade ner korten från Commons") chan dler ··· 11:12, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, but if you know what Commons is, you could probably deduce the meaning. I still think it's strange to call a .jpg image a "kort", though. Thanks for the clarifications. It's issues like these that ~~prevent~~keep me from putting myself in the "user sv-3" category. decltype (talk) 11:22, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

np, my guess is it comes from digital cameras, because you treat those photos exactly the same as in a "real" camera. Now you can say "kort" for .jpg's etc and get understood, but I'm guessing most people would still say "bild". chan dler ··· 11:26, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Boutros Boutros-Ghali?

How does Boutros Boutros-Ghali pronounce his name? Does he normally use French or Arabic or what language? Which part of his name is used by his friends when calling him? Why is Boutros-Ghali hyphenated?--Sonjaaa (talk) 14:43, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

His first name is Boutros (which is the Arabic equivalent of Peter), thus it is natural to assume that that's how friends call him. — Emil J. 14:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

His name works on the same principle as Monier Monier-Williams. —An gr 15:10, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

and what is that principle?--Sonjaaa (talk) 01:23, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is what the article says "... he adopted his Christian name of Monier as an additional surname." Why someone would want to have a name as both the first name and last name is not clear. Jay (talk) 10:56, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Spelling: swordsmistress

Is swordsmistress an acceptable spelling for the feminine form of swordmaster? So far, I've had no luck with dictionaries or other authoritative sources. 60.48.212.154 (talk) 14:57, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know about "swordmaster" but the OED offers swordsman/swordswoman for someone who is skilled with a sword. Is that the meaning you're looking for? 163.1.176.253 (talk) 19:05, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would consider "swordmistress" to be better. But I also think that you could call a woman a swordmaster. It would depend on the context of use. In a fantasy novel, I'd expect swordmistress, but in a modern context, swordmaster is better. Steewi (talk) 02:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for both your responses. The intended usage is as a title, so sadly, none of the alternatives will do. However, that's not the point of my original (and badly-worded!) question, which is: is swordsmistress (with an 's') an acceptable, alternative spelling for swordmistress (no 's')? For various reasons, I need to use the former spelling, unless it is incorrect. I've seen both variants in use, but I still have lingering doubts. 118.100.96.183 (talk) 13:36, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Glandular

I was just idly idling over my daily newspaper word challenge, and it occurred to me that certain words can be constructed by combining two other words and rearranging the letters. But often, more than one pair of words will combine to make the same word. The two words in each pair, generally speaking, would be completely unrelated, either to the large word or to each other.

For example, "glandular" could be derived by adding:

Allan + drug
dual + gnarl
garda + null
glad + lunar
gland + Ural
land + Lugar
lug + Randal
and probably others.

Does this sort of thing have a particular name? Which word would have the greatest number of different component pairs? -- JackofOz (talk) 21:50, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Category:Word games and Category:Word play. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:28, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seems like a special case of anagrams. --Kjoonlee 23:49, 14 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sort of. The closest thing I could find in the cats Wavelength suggested was Alternade (an article I wrote myself, coincidentally), but that uses letters in the same order as the parent word, chosen at regular intervals, and no general mixing is permitted. Glandular is not an example of an alternade, because there are no such words as GADLR or LNUA; or, for that matter, GNL, LDA or AUR. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, A_T_R_A_E + _L_E_N_D_ = ALTERNADE. See wikt:atrae. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:02, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How fascinating! I must add that in to the article. Thanks. -- JackofOz (talk) 05:28, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are welcome. See into/in to. -- Wavelength (talk) 06:04, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anyone got any vague ideas about my second question? I suppose the longer the main word, the better chance it will have different pairs of component words, but that hardly narrows it down very much. The fewer odd consonants like x, q and z etc, the better chance it will have any pairs at all, but again that doesn't help very much. Anyone with kick-ass word skills and kick-ass computing skills and interest enough in doing some kind of search? I'm not bothered about foreign words or proper nouns, but there can't be any letters left over. And I'm only interested in pairs, not triples etc. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:31, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See http://wordsmith.org/anagram/. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:51, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See this list for disestablishment. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This list shows 12 pairs for preternatural. -- Wavelength (talk) 23:40, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The word "preposterous" just came into my mind out of nowhere. I tried it and found 88 (!) pairs. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:54, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But that's nothing. There are 113 in degarnishment. -- JackofOz (talk) 00:11, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Impersonate yields 262 (ignoring the top two results). I particularly like pirate omens. Surely there must be some with more than this, though. Deor (talk) 00:18, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Impersonated = 494 —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.56.108.62 (talk) 00:25, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

predominates just pips that, at 495. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:09, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Now that is odd, since predominates and impersonated are perfect anagrams of one another. ---Sluzzelin talk 06:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So much for infallible technology. -- JackofOz (talk) 11:06, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Probably, like me, the anon was excluding one-letter words in the results (see the third result in your search, Jack), and that accounts for the difference. Deor (talk) 11:33, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

April 15

A word meaning misplaced nationalism

I can't for the life of me place it. I think it begins with a z, and Gordon Brown was once accused of it. In my mind, it connotes nationalism based on unfounded dogma, but in a predominantly harmless way. Much love goes to anyone who can nail this. And if I'm inventing this, then it's a great feat. Seegoon (talk) 02:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Xenophobia? Jingoism is another possibility, but I'm not sure that I would characterize it as harmless. Deor (talk) 03:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

- Jingoism! Spot on. Yeah, my mental definition was obviously pretty misguided (begins with a z?), but still. You've filled in a niggling gap. Thank you! Seegoon (talk) 03:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's also chauvinism. Gwinva (talk) 04:05, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Zealot?--Sonjaaa (talk) 04:33, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ultranationalism. StuRat (talk) 13:19, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Navy SEALs

Why are US Navy SEALs referred to as "operators"? Dismas|^(talk) 03:38, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just guessing, but I think it's because they execute "special operations". Someone who carries out operations is an operator, right? Indeterminate (talk) 10:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's the only conclusion that I could come to as well but I came to it on my own and thought someone might have a reliable source for the final answer. Dismas|^(talk) 15:40, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

conjugation of the english verb come in the phrase "which must shortly come to pass"

I need to know what the conjugation of the verb "come" in the phrase "which must shortly come to pass" works out to beOneofHIS (talk) 03:58, 15 April 2009 (UTC) I would appreciate your help and your answers, as this is very important to me.[reply]

The conjugation of "to come" (verbs should always be given in their infinitive form) in the context provided is "third person singular". Only I am confused about why this is so important to you... --PS T 04:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Huh? I would think it's an infinitive...the third person singular of "to come," after all, is "comes"... -Elmer Clark (talk) 04:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

And why do you think you're the only one confused, Point-set? :) -- JackofOz (talk) 05:27, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is most certainly an infinitive, modified here by the modal verb 'must'.--92.41.192.138 (talk) 05:49, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would say it is governed rather than modified by 'must'. —Tamfang (talk) 06:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Modify means add/change the mode, I believe, and fits in well with the name Modal verb ('modal' also coming from 'mode'). Also, I would say it did, in fact, modify the meaning from simply happening to the necessity of it happening. I can't see how it governs it, as it does not alter any endings, as would, say, a noun for an adjective in Latin.--KageTora (talk) 10:35, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But in linguistics, modifying is what grammatical modifiers do, and modal verbs aren't modifiers. But the relationship between a modal verb and its main verb does seem to be a kind of government. —An gr 10:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Beware the etymological fallacy, KageTora. While 'modify' undoubtedly is derived from the same Latin root as 'mode', its meaning today is nothing to do with modes. (The word 'mode' occurs three times in the OED entry for 'modify': once in the etymology, and twice in the definition and examples of meaning 4b, marked as Philos. and obsolete.) --ColinFine (talk) 23:30, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Who knows the most number of languages?

Just out of interest, who is it that knows the most number of languages? Are there particular statistics which give the average number of languages a person may know? What about the average of this data restricted to a particular country? Europeans in particular are known to be very learned in this respect; many usually know 3-5 languages. --PS T 04:31, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Multilingualism#Polyglots for some candidates. -Elmer Clark (talk) 04:34, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure you can generalise about Europeans. We British are infamous for being exceptionally poor at learning foreign languages, possibly because of our years of empire, which fostered the belief that rather than learning Hindi or Malay you could just shout loudly in English at your bearer or your amah and possibly hit them with a stick and they'd jolly soon understand you. In Europe (and this is my own WP:OR and WP:POV) it tends to be people from countries which speak less widely-spoken languages such as Dutch or Danish who are more fluent in the "commoner" languages (a case in point, a relative of mine is Danish and is trilingual in Danish, English and Romansh; she's brought up her children in the UK as English-only monoglot; her view is, "Who speaks Danish?" Please note I intend no slur on the Danish language or people here Tonywalton ^Talk 09:52, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can totally understand a Dane learning English, but Romansh seems a little strange. I would have thought that she would probably have learned German or French before learning Romansh as a second (third, fourth ...) language. Do you know the circumstances around her learning Romansh? -- 128.104.112.117 (talk) 14:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In a nutshell: Born in Denmark, parents Swiss and spent a lot of time travelling for work, she spent a lot of time with her Romansh-speaking grandparents in the Arosa region. She does speak German, but freely admits mine is better. Tonywalton ^Talk 15:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In countries where the modern political boundaries (i.e. borders) were drawn up by colonial powers after they left, you will find that the majority of people will have at least a working knowledge of a number of languages in each area.--KageTora (talk) 10:31, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For some of these areas, you might like to look at List of multilingual countries and regions. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 14:28, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to the map on that article, Sweden has no official language. Is this true?--KageTora (talk) 16:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yup. Somewhat paradoxically, it does have legally-recognized minority languages though. --Pykk (talk) 10:53, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In areas with a large number of tourists from various European countries, you will often find locals with amazing linguistic abilities. For example, in Marrakech, many of those working the tourist trade speak a Berber dialect, colloquial Moroccan Arabic, Modern Standard Arabic, French, and one or more of Spanish, English, German and Italian. The really gifted ones will also know some Russian and Portuguese. These are small shopkeepers, waiters, guides, etc, who do not otherwise have much formal education. --Xuxl (talk) 13:51, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This reminds me of an incident — I spent some months in Switzerland, where instead of soixante-quinze ('sixty-fifteen') they say septante-cinq ('seventy-five'). During that time I visited Tunisia, where a shopkeeper said soixante-quinze and then, seeing my mute distress, repeated septante-cinq. —Tamfang (talk) 19:50, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Spaniards who visit their supposed hispanophone cousins in Latin and South America often think they've come to the wrong country, due to the large amount of different vocab used in different Spanish-speaking countries. Also true in the anglosphere, but to a lesser degree. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:55, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

When I was in Nepal, I found that most people spoke near perfect English, as well as Nepali, plus numerous other local languages, and Hindi. This included kids as young as 5, and beggars on the streets, who had had no education whatsoever.--KageTora (talk) 16:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Filipino-Chinese I know can speak Fokkien, Mandarin, Tagalog, and English fluently. bibliomaniac 15 The annual review... 03:28, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all of your comments! I am somewhat sure that most schools in Europe teach both Greek and Latin. Germans are usually likely to learn French as their second language (I think) but some choose to learn English also. I am very interested in linguistics but know not much about it. Going onto a different topic, are there common languages (apart from Esperanto, Ido and other man-made languages) whose grammar is very simple, and contains very few irregularities (irregular verbs, irregular formation of plurals of nouns, many distinct conjugations...). In my experience of language learning, I have seen Bengali and Afrikaans to have simple grammatical structure. Of course, the most common of languages tend to be more complex. Thankyou for any examples and comments! --PS T 11:06, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Usually, in Germany, you would learn English as your second language (or "Erste Fremdsprache", "First Foreign Language"). I did French first, and that was followed by Latin and Ancient Greek (but that wasn't common 25 years ago, and is even less common now). Lectonar (talk) 12:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you dislike irregular words, any isolating language will be just what you're searching for, as these have no morphology that could ever be irregular. That doesn't always make them "very simple", however, as they tend to express a lot using all kinds of syntactic constructions. MuDavid

15:21, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Swahili and Turkish are known for having very regular grammar. However, their vocabulary can be challenging for the typical Westerner, and in the case of Turkish, the grammar may be regular but it features a number of concepts unfamiliar to most English speakers (case endings, unusual verb tenses, etc). Grammatical exceptions are only one of many possible sources of linguistic complexity.

On another point you made, the teaching of Latin and Greek is pretty much dead in the standard European curriculum. The advantage many Europeans have is that most EU countries encourage the mandatory teaching of two foreign languages to all secondary school students, which is usually English plus the language of a neighbouring country. --Xuxl (talk) 15:33, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I need help understanding two lines in an article.

I'm reading an article on retention that says:
"“Successful” retained students were significantly more ready than all retained students on their early readiness measures. (...) “Successful” or “highly successful” retained students did not appear to have initial scores on any of their early readiness measures, indicating that they were initially significantly delayed."
Is the following interpretation correct: - all retained students were initially significantly delayed on their early readiness measures, but the successful retained students were less delayed than all retained students.??? Lova Falk (talk) 07:20, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You might be right. That looks like one of the most egregious examples of gibberish or possibly technobabble I've seen in a while. Tonywalton ^Talk 09:37, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Isn't it terrible! The whole article is written in this way. :( Lova Falk (talk) 10:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is it a Wikipedia article, or an article from somewhere else? —An gr 10:17, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, if it was a Wikipedia article, I could put tags and ask the editor.... This is the source: P. Ferguson, S.R. Jimerson and M.K. Dalton, 2001. Sorting out successful failures: Exploratory analyses of factors associated with academic and behavioral outcomes of retained students. Psychology in the Schools, Vol. 38(4). Lova Falk (talk) 10:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I don't pretend to understand what all (or even any of) these technical terms mean, but if "successful" or "highly successful" retained students did not appear to have initial scores on any of their early readiness measures, how can they be judged to have been significantly more ready than all retained students on their early readiness measures? If I don't have a score on some scale, how can you compare me on that scale to other people? —An gr 10:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe they were judged mainly on the "later" scores of the early readiness measures. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:04, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think we can infer anything about the delayedness of the retained students that weren't "successful" or "highly successful". Zain Ebrahim (talk) 11:07, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think we can though. "Successful" retained students were more ready than all retained students, therefore students that were not successful should be less ready than successful students. Lova Falk (talk) 18:47, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, but that's not what I'm talking about. Given your extract, we can only compare "successful" (or "highly successful") retained students with other retained students regarding their readiness. We have no basis to compare them reagrding how delayed they were initially. If readiness is somehow related to the how delayed they were, you need to give us more information. Zain Ebrahim (talk) 07:15, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the problem is mostly with that comma. I don't know if it's what they meant, but it parses better for me if I ignore it. The comment seems to be regarding the validity of the "initial scores". "Successful students did the best on the initial readiness tests. Successful (or highly successful) retained students did not have initial scores indicating any delays." The point appears to be that the initial test did a good job of identifying which students would become successful. Why they didn't just say that is a mystery. Matt Deres (talk) 15:39, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A completely different interpretation! Wow. Sigh. Lova Falk (talk) 18:47, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We aim to please! My interpretation is based largely upon that comma being a typo, because the sentence makes no sense to me with it being there. "“Successful” or “highly successful” retained students did not appear to have initial scores on any of their early readiness measures..." seems nonsensical in itself. They had no scores? It doesn't work. Removing some of the jargon and peacock phrasing, we get "Successful students did not appear to have scores on any of their tests, indicating that they were initially retarded." Well, I suppose if they were so dumb that they couldn't figure out how to mark down answers on the test, that would account for them not having scores, but it doesn't explain how they later became successful ;-). Removing the comma makes the "...indicating..." portion modify the score, which then makes sense. In any case, that editor needs to be thrown down a well or something. Matt Deres (talk) 20:16, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Surely "projected in a vertically-enhanced direction with reference to the prevailing plane surface within, a tube intended for the accessing of hydrological resources". Tonywalton ^Talk 20:25, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think the passage makes more sense if you change the first instance of "early" to "late", and change "initial" to "initially higher". If you do that, it reads:

"“Successful” retained students were significantly more ready than all retained students on their ~~early~~late readiness measures. (...) “Successful” or “highly successful” retained students did not appear to have initially higher scores on any of their early readiness measures, indicating that they were initially significantly delayed."

This would mean that successful/highly successful retained students didn't stand out when first tested but showed much better scores in later tests. I suppose this could be due to some combination of natural aptitude or more effective teaching or better study methods. I don't know if this is what the authors intended, but rewriting it this way makes the passage more intelligible to me. You should try to find out if there was an error correction in a later issue of that journal. LovesMacs (talk) 03:16, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Gerund v. verbal noun

I've always understood a gerund (in English) to be any nominal usage of a verb ending in "ing". However someone has suggested to me that a distinction should be drawn between gerunds and verbal nouns, claiming that gerunds can take direct and indirect objects and can be modified by adverbs, as in this sentence:

"Constantly eating chips is good for you."

And that a verbal noun can only take prepositional objects, and is modified with adjectives and articles, as in this sentence:

"The constant eating of chips is good for you."

So is this person justified in making a distinction between gerunds and verbal nouns, or are both of those cases gerunds? --Lazar Taxon (talk) 14:48, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is my understanding that a gerund is a verbal noun. Your friend may be confusing it with a participle with which it shares similar form in some uses. // BL \\ (talk) 17:22, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, you've misread my question. My friend is not confusing anything with a participle; he's suggesting a distinction (gerund versus verbal noun) between two things that I've considered gerunds. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 17:32, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, it's a good question. It's clearer in cases where the gerund and the verbal noun have different forms, like "destroying" and "destruction": "Constantly destroying cities is fun" vs. "The constant destruction of cities is fun" (cf. *"Constantly destruction cities is fun"). —An gr 17:56, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is "destruction" a verbal noun (a description I have only heard before in respect of gerunds) or is it just a noun, or is it really a gerund? My grammar terminology is very old-fashioned and I may well have missed a lot of changes. Is "tion" a marker for something now known as a "verbal noun"? // BL \\ (talk) 18:15, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You can also say "the constant destroying of cities" though, although it sounds kind of weird. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:22, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

BL, I wouldn't say verbal nouns are a different part of speech from nouns; they're a kind of noun. So yes, "destruction" is just a noun, specifically a verbal noun because of its semantics (it denotes an action) and its morphology (it's related to a verb). It's gerunds that are neither fish nor fowl - they're sort of like verbs (in being modified by adverbs and in taking direct objects) and they're sort of like nouns (in being able to be the subject or the direct object of a finite verb). However, having said this, it occurs to me that the verbal nouns of Celtic languages like Irish and Welsh are not exactly like English gerunds or English verbal nouns; they have some properties of both. So maybe the exact definition and properties of gerunds and verbal nouns differ from language to language. —An gr 21:13, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Angr, I'm sure they (gerunds and verbal nouns) do differ from language to language. In Russian, for example, the so-called 'gerund' is not a noun at all, but a sort of indeclinable adjective. But I don't think there is any justification for claiming a distinction between the two in English. The distinction proposed above is in any case a syntactic distinction, not a classification of the words. (Peter Daniels, no doubt among others, denies a distinction between the 'gerund' and the 'present participle' in English: since they invariably have the same form, he thinks it absurd to give them different names according to their different syntactic roles. If you search dejanews for sci.lang, daniels and gerund you'll find something on this fairly quickly). --ColinFine (talk) 23:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pronunciation of "MRSA"

Should the name for these bacteria be pronounced "em are ess ay", with each letter sounded out, or is the quasi-phonetic "mere-sah" also acceptable? I'm planning to mention these bacteria in a speech, and which pronunciation will be more clearly understood? 69.224.37.48 (talk) 16:14, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I (in the south of England) have never heard any pronunciation other than the spelt-out one, and probably would not understand any other pronunciation unless it was explained. Algebraist 16:25, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In hospitals in southern Ontario (Canada), it is called "marsah", (where the "a" and the "r" are both pronounced) by nurses and doctors. (I have never heard "mer-sah".) Within a hosptital, context is not a problem. Those who have had it also call it "marsah" outside the hospital. You won't be misunderstood if you spell out each letter; you might be misunderstood if you don't. Going with the letters is safer then, unless your audience is an "inside" group that has a pronunciation. I would ask the sponsors. // BL \\ (talk) 17:17, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm pleased to say that I have no personal experience with this acronym, but I did see a TV report on it once, probably the one on 60 Minutes a few years back, where they pronounced it mer-sah. Until then I'd always assumed it would be pronounced as initials. In a speech, the obvious solution is to use all three forms -- the full name, the initials, and one of the "quasi-phonetic" styles -- at first mention, then go with one of the short forms afterwards. --Anonymous, 18:1 UTC, April 15, 2009.

Ditto Algebraist. I was 38 minutes into an episode of House before I cottoned on! - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 19:45, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think I heard /ˈmɝsə/ sometimes, but far less often than /ˌɛmɑɹɛsˈɛɪ/, when I worked for a hospital in California. (I'm bookmarking IPA chart for English dialects!) —Tamfang (talk) 19:41, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you're in the UK or Commonwealth, you'll need to spell it out. I've never heard it pronounced as a word, and never knew until this thread that anyone did. Gwinva (talk) 20:00, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In the states I've heard "mer-sa." bibliomaniac 15 The annual review... 22:21, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As have I: mur-sah. Grsz¹¹ 03:22, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Ferry... cross the MRSA..." —An gr 08:27, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Arschgeburt"

~~Is this newly created article correct? 3DES, on behalf of decltype (talk) 17:36, 15 April 2009 (UTC)~~ Update: Apparently not, but still, what does it mean? 3DES, on behalf of decltype (talk) 17:39, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

According to the deletion summary 'ass birth'. - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 17:49, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, I noticed that, but I did some initial research, and found this de:Arschgeburt. So I figured there was something more to it. 3DES, on behalf of decltype (talk) 17:53, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There were several texts that were deleted, the first said that 'An ass birth is a creature that is born in the ass (anal)' but were deleted for similar reasons. I have no idea if that's an actual used street definition, though. - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 17:59, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've never heard it used in German slang, but I doubt it would ever be intended literally. If it exists at all, it's probably just an all-purpose insult. I have heard Arschgesicht (ass-face) and Missgeburt (literally baby born with a birth defect, but used colloquially as a general insult), so this could be a portmanteau of those two. —An gr 18:10, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On the de WP we also have deleted edits containing (to paraphrase) "similar to a pukebirth except that's through the mouth" and a later deleted edit offering "National Socialists" as a definition for this. Looks like what new pages controllers call pure vandalism. Tonywalton ^Talk 19:34, 15 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I thought I might have heard it applied to ideas, rather than humans. As in a dumb thought you pulled out of your ass. But superficial googling didn't yield any examples of this usage. On the other hand, googling "Arschgeburt eines" ("of a ..." <masculine or neuter>) and especially "Arschgeburt einer" ("of a ..." <feminine>) gives some colorful examples of apparent usage. ---Sluzzelin talk 12:06, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alright, I did find a few examples online, where "Arschgeburt" refers to an idea or concept, rather than a human being: In this metaphorical sense, I found mostly political "ass births", such as a blogger's characterization of how Schlingensief perceives the German reunification in his movie The German Chainsaw Massacre, or referring to the European Union ("Die gesamte real existierende Europäische Union ist eine Arschgeburt.") and the Third Reich ("Das sogenannte “Dritte Reich” war eine Arschgeburt der Weimarer Republik"), but also the Universal Media Disc as an example of a techonological "ass birth". Songs such as Rhymin Simon's "Arschgeburt" (featuring Mach One and Frauenarzt), or the rhyming title "Kurt, die Arschgeburt" mean it as an insult toward specific people, however. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:37, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see, very nice explanation, thanks. decltype (talk) 14:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Arschgeburt" (like Angr, I have never heard it) may be a parallel term to the German word "Hirngeburt", which, again, describes a concept and does not apply to any living organism. As far as I understand it, a Hirngeburt is a - somewhat theoretical - idea born out of dissatisfaction with some status quo. It is generally used in a critical sense, or, at least, implies that the concept needs significant development and improvement. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 16:05, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Cookatoo, I was passively looking for the original but couldn't place it, and now it all makes sense. "Arschgeburt" must be an Arschgeburt of "Hirngeburt". ---Sluzzelin talk 18:04, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

April 16

Need greek translation

My professor has a tattoo and I asked him what it says and he said its ancient greek pronounced "low tie, sof tongue." Anyone knows what this means?

It sounds like γνῶθι σαυτόν (gnōthi sauton), "Know thyself". —An gr 07:13, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Russian pronunciation

I must give an oral presentation on Leo Tolstoy, and I'd like not to pronounce things as correctly as I can. If someone would be so kind as to provide correct pronunciation for Ivan Ilych (as in The Death of Ivan Ilych) and Yasnaya Polyana, I would be much obliged. seresin ( ¡? ) 06:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What, all Russian speakers around still asleep? Let me give it a try: Иван Ильич, IPA: ['ivaːn 'ilʲitʃ] (you mistyped the surname, because "ilych" would be a transcription of Илыч, pronounced ['ilɨtʃ]). Ясная Поляна is IPA: [jaːsnaja pɐ'lʲaːna]. Shouldn't be too difficult for an English speaker; a schwa is a good replacement for /ɐ/, while /lʲ/ is roughly as in liaison. No such user (talk) 10:48, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

['ivaːn] is impossible. Russian has no phonological vowel length, it is only one of the features indicating stress. Both Иван and Ильич are stressed on the second syllable, actually. There's a pronounced [j] in Ильич, that's why it isn't written Илич. Here's my take: [ɪˈvaːn ɪlʲˈjiːtɕ], [ˈjæːsnəjə pɐˈlʲæːnə]. — Emil J. 12:45, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

['ivaːn] is impossible. Indeed, it was a typo. Thanks for the correction. No such user (talk) 13:25, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You'd "like not to pronounce things as correctly" as you can ? StuRat (talk) 13:03, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd transcribe them as [ɪˈvan ɪˈlʲjitɕ] and [ˈjasnəjə pɐˈlʲanə] (assuming the stress others have indicates is correct). Since this includes a number of sounds difficult for non-Russians to pronounce correctly without lots of practice, the closest English approximations would probably be /ɪˈvɑːn ɪlˈjɪtʃ/ and /ˈjæsnəjə pəlˈjɑːnə/. — Æµ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 21:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Never ˈjæsnəjə, always ˈjɑːsnəjə. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:46, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Computer in French

Does the word 'computer' or do the words 'com puter' mean 'rotten' or 'evil-smelling' in the French language? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 59.93.39.227 (talk) 08:11, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Computer" in French is a verb meaning "to perform calculations", and is out of use. Neither "com" nor "puter" are words in French. Equendil Talk 09:00, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

'Comme putain' could mean 'like a bitch', but slightly grammatically incorrect, without the 'un' in there.--KageTora (talk) 08:52, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comme putains ("like bitches") is pronounced the same and is grammatically correct. (Isn't it? Or does it have to be Comme des putains?) —An gr 09:14, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The "com" in computer is pronounced the same as "con", the French equivalent of cunt. The "puter" part (pronounced "puteur" in French) is phonetically close to pèteur (one who farts). The correct French word is "ordinateur", by the way. --Xuxl (talk) 15:42, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. But, Xuxl, does the pronunciation of 'con' and 'puter' have anything to do with the French preferring the word 'ordinateur' to computer? Are the French conscious about 'cunt' and 'one who farts' when they hear the word 'computer'?

郵便書留

Does anybody know what a 郵便書留 is? Is it a 'Postal Order'?--KageTora (talk) 08:49, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's called registered mail. See ja and en for more info. Bendono (talk) 11:21, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Linguistic Board

Like the title says. I'm searching for an (semi)-scientific board (well, or sth similar) about linguistic topics. Google, Yahoo & Co. could not help me.

thx in advance. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.74.16.175 (talk) 16:07, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See LINGUIST List. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:14, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Going to the bathroom

Does anyone have insight as to how, when, and why the terms "number one" and "number two" came about as euphemisms (if that's the correct word) for urination and defecation? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 20:15, 16 April 2009 (UTC))[reply]

They are both recorded in Slang and its Analogues (1890-1904) by J. S. Farmer and W. E. Henley. As to why and how I suspect some clever victorian nanny assigned totally arbitrary labels to something unmentionable and they, err, stuck. It might be related to the phrase "take care of number one" meaning to look after oneself. meltBanana 00:34, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

arabic translation

با سلام و احترام آيا مي شود حسابي را كه به ادسنس معرفي مي نماييم در هندوستان باشد و آدر س دائم در آلمان ؟ با تشكر لطفا به email adress پاسخ دهديد. mokaramirgmail.com

i saw this on a google forum what does it say? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.198.192.120 (talk) 21:55, 16 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's in Persian. He/she respectfully askes whether his/her bank account (?) for AdSense can be in India while his/her permanent address is in Germany. And he/she wants the response to be sent to his/her gmail box. --Omidinist (talk) 04:40, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

April 17

Is There A Word For Stories That Are Different But Have A Simlier Thing?

I have a thing for elements, so all my stories deal with elemental things. Like, one story talks about elelemental wolves, another is elemental crystals, & more. I want to know if there's a word that will go to it. Like there are books that have series, (ex: The Earth Series). Like a title for my group of stories, but have a smaller title, (ex: The Earht Series: The Birds). Well, something like that. If you can't answer my question, I understand. I'm confusing. Thanks for your help anyways! =D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.88.1.253 (talk) 02:00, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think you mean stories that contain a similar object. This is somewhat related to the work of Vladimir Propp, who wrote the classic study Morphology of the Folktale, which tried to find the common structures of different stories. Some of these structures he identified involved objects in a similar way to how I think you mean, although I do not think there is a word for them. See also narrative morphology or plot. 78.146.249.32 (talk) 12:13, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Beanz meanz Heinz

In this advertising slogan, are these three words meant to rhyme in British English? Rmhermen (talk) 03:10, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, it's just an ?amusing repetitive use of the letter 'Z' Richard Avery (talk) 06:37, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are also different types of rhymes. The slogan lies somewhere between a half rhyme and an eye rhyme. ---Sluzzelin talk 07:19, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Years ago I commonly heard "Heinz Beans" pronounced "Heenz Beans" (as "Heinz" would be in German, were it spelt "Hienz"); whether the mispronunciation of the name came from a misapplication of the slogan, or whether the slogan came from a then-common mispronunciation of the name, I couldn't say. Tonywalton ^Talk 09:10, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Say what?

Can somebody come up with a more understandable section title than "Contemporary vitae" in Pierre Terrail, seigneur de Bayard? Clarityfiend (talk) 08:30, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Contemporary biographies? —An gr 08:38, 17 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 67: / Line 67: @@
 ::I wonder whether you're thinking of [[Usborne Books]]' ''First Thousand Words in ...'' series?  They cover many different languages. ''First Thousand Words in Italian'' is still in print; see [http://www.amazon.co.uk/First-Thousand-Words-Italian-1000/dp/0746037767 here]. <strong>[[User:Karenjc|<font color="red">Ka</font>]][[User_talk:Karenjc|renjc]]</strong> 18:36, 14 April 2009 (UTC)
 :::Even though the [[sentence]] which begins ''I wonder ...'' seems to imply a [[question]], it functions grammatically as a [[statement]], so the [[punctuation]] at the end should be a [[period]] instead of a [[question mark]]. -- [[User:Wavelength|Wavelength]] ([[User talk:Wavelength|talk]]) 01:01, 15 April 2009 (UTC)
+::::In British english, you mean a [[full stop]]. [[Special:Contributions/78.146.249.32|78.146.249.32]] ([[User talk:78.146.249.32|talk]]) 12:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
+Thanks, I probably was thinking of the Usborne Books. I'd also be interested in any other books to teach Italian to young children. Thanks. [[Special:Contributions/78.146.249.32|78.146.249.32]] ([[User talk:78.146.249.32|talk]]) 12:28, 17 April 2009 (UTC)
 == Can someone covert this to english? I nicked it from the image page as it seemed more appropriate [[Institution Sainte Jeanne-Antide|here]] ==