Talk:Judaism

judaism has "clung" to a few principles?

In the opening, it says that Judaism has "clung" to a few principles. There is something about the word "clung" that seems inappropriate. "Clung" suggests desperation or something. Anyone else have thoughts on this? Framed0000 (talk) 18:33, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I agree with you about "clung." Also, this is a claim that I think only Orthodox and other more traditional Jews would make. I think most critical Bible scholars, including scholars within the Conservaive and Reform movements, would argue that the Israelites did not, or did not always, have these views of God, and that they developed over time. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:55, 3 May 2008 (UTC)

I think there would be wide consensus that while Jews may not have always practiced the same rituals, Judaism has always clung to certain principles, including monotheism and social justice (tikkun olam). — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 02:44, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

PS: On re-reading this, I see the first editor's point is about the connotations of the word "clung". Maybe "Judaism has clung adhered to to a number of religious principles"? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 02:47, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

You seem to be missing my point. This only raises the question of when "Judaism" began. If you insist Judaism always included the idea of Tikkun Olam, I think many historians would say you are talking about a religion that developed during the Babyloian Exile - not the religion of Abraham or the Children of Israel during the time of the kingdom. Orthodox Jews would disagre, they would say that this religion starts no later than Moses and perhaps as early as Abraham. We canot get around the fact that Orthodox and many non-Orthodox Jews believe that what we consider normative Judaism, or even elements of Judaism identifiable in the Hellenistic period, first developed at that time or rather developed a thousand or more years earlier. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:20, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

PS I still agree with the first editor that "clung" has connotations that are not appropriate and we should find another word. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:20, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I see what you're saying. How's this for a first draft (my changes in bold):

Judaism differs from many religions in that in modern times, central authority is not vested in any single person or group, but in sacred texts, traditions, and learned Rabbis who interpret those texts and laws. According to traditional Jewish belief, Throughout the ages, Judaism has clung always adhered to a number of religious principles, the most important of which are is the belief in a single, omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, transcendent God, who created the universe and continues to govern it. According to traditional Jewish belief, the God who created the world established a covenant with the Israelites, and revealed his laws and commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai in the form of both the Written and Oral Torah, and the Jewish people are the descendants of the Israelites. The traditional practice of Judaism revolves around study and the observance of God's laws and commandments as written in the Torah and expounded in the Talmud.

What do you think? — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 23:46, 4 May 2008 (UTC)

I think your version is a big improvement. As long as we are fixing things, I think that Judaism has always (and now I am going back to Abraham) believed in a God who is both transcendent and imminent; we need to specify this. However, I am not sure that even the rabbis always believed God to be benevolent ... God's killing the firstborn of Egypt, as well as the flaying of Akiva, are important parts of the Rabbinic portrait of God. Benevolent really isn't a Jewish word, anyway - perhaps we can replace it by saying that Judaism has believed in a God who is both just and merciful - my sense is, the Jewish view of God always involves the tension between contrasting features (transcendent and imminent; merciful and just) and we should be using this language. Finally, rather than "adhere" why not say Judaism has forwarded, presented, highlighted, valued ... one of these words? Slrubenstein | Talk 11:33, 5 May 2008 (UTC)

Why "learned" Rabbis? Should we also call corresponding offices in other religions "learned"? Or, perhaps, does this mean there are ignorant (non-learned) Rabbis who are not allowed to interpret stuff? Isn't this just hype, like saying my country has a "vibrant" culture, a "high-tech" economy and "beautiful" women? Do I need to put a "Citation needed" on "learned"? Fourtildas (talk) 04:17, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

"the belief in a single, omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, transcendent God" also needs a citation. Actual historians in actual universities think that jewish monotheism was invented in Iraq in 500 BC. This whole "article" is just a pile of Fourtildas (talk) 04:47, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

Well, it seems there is at least consensus over the word "clung." I will change "clung" to "adhered", and leave the theological discussion to you guys. Framed0000 (talk) 19:44, 20 May 2008 (UTC)

Re: Fourtildas, would that make Kings David and Solomon (who lived circa 1000 BCE) non-Jewish non-monotheists? I never heard of any professors who made the claim that Jewish monotheism was first proposed during the Babylonian exile. --GHcool (talk) 07:28, 1 February 2009 (UTC)

It's mentioned further down under "Critical historical view". Somebody please provide sources for "many consider it the first monotheistic religion." and "Throughout the ages". I understand that the Jews (like most religions) believe that that have always believed the same stuff. They don't like to admit that somebody just concocted all their sacred beliefs at some time. But this is supposed to be an encyclopedia article about Judaism, not just a recitation of religious beliefs. It should tell me what actual academic scholars think, not just what true-believers believe. Fourtildas (talk) 04:44, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Critical historical view

Critical scholars do not necessarily reject the view that the Torah is divinely inspired in some sense. Many of them are after all Christians or Jews themselves. They are engaged in a historical study, not a theologial debate.

Their theories do indeed conflict with the idea of Yahweh dictating the bible to Moses like a secretary but not with a more general ideas of divine inspiration.

This ought to be corrected, it is a serious misstatement of the academic view. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MathHisSci (talk • contribs) 10:56, 7 May 2009 (UTC)

Do you have a citation? Also, divinely inspired is bias, because it would mean wikipedia would be on the side of those believing in a deity. If you can find a citation from a proper source, it would seem appropriate to add your comment, provided it was properly cited. --Île_flottant~Floating island (talk) 20:36, 22 June 2009 (UTC)

That science is silent on purely religious claims, like a certain book being Holy Scripture, is the norm and I do not think I am the one that has to justify that. Instead anyone claiming the opposite should justify that. Scholars do theorize that humans wrote the Bible but they do not say anything about whether Yahweh or some other deity might have inspired them to do it. I also said that the critical theories "do not conflict" with divine inspiration, not that they support it so there would be no siding with the theists if we clarified that. MathHisSci (talk) 17:41, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

I do not have sources, but I am pretty sure Wellhausen was a practicing Christian, and Kaufmann an observant Jew. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:37, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Some errors in the article

According to Jewish tradition, the history of Judaism begins with the Covenant between God and Abraham (ca. 2000 BCE), the patriarch and progenitor of the Jewish people.

No it doesn't, it begins with the creation, otherwise to recite kiddush on Shabbat and to say that it is a rememberance of the creation and that God rested on the seventh day would not make sense.

The above is a non-sequitor. That Jews celebrate the creation of the world does not mean that Judaism began with the creation of the world, you are illogical. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

Judaism differs from many religions in that in modern times, central authority is not vested in any single person or group, but in sacred texts, traditions, and learned Rabbis who interpret those texts and laws.

Yes, but it does not differ in this respect from Islam. Some Muslims hold the view that Judaism and Islam are one and the same religion (reference later) See the wikipedia article Judaism and Islam, and the first reference given on this: and article by Rabbi David Rosen. (links later).

Yes but the point is historical - Judaism may be the first religion to do this. Also, even if other religions do this, it remains an important element of Judaism. There is no claim that this is the only element of Judaism. This point is trivial. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

In the news I see "Israel's chief rabbinate severed ties with the Vatican on Wednesday", "The Jewish state's highest religious authority sent a letter to the Holy See". [[1]] Sounds like a "central authority" to me. Fourtildas (talk) 17:12, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

Several countries have Chief Rabbis. Israel has two. The Chief Rabbinate is a leadership position and political office, not a theological one, and the Chief Rabbi's decisions are not binding on all Jews. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 20:56, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

The rabbinical courts decide who is Jewish enough to marry you. Surely that is a central religious authority.(I realize there are some fringe sects that don't follow these rulings). Please provide a source. Is it a religious doctrine that there should be no such authority? Fourtildas (talk) 18:40, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Throughout the ages, Judaism has adhered to a number of religious principles, the most important of which is the belief in a single, omniscient, omnipotent, benevolent, transcendent God, who created the universe and continues to govern it.

Not according to Hillel, who was asked this question (to explain the torah while standing on one foot. His answer was "Do not do unto others what you would not wish done to yourself." (the negative golden rule)

Non-sequitor. Hillel's answer in no way negates the other position presented. Both are possible and there is every reason to believe hillel would have agree that there is a single omnipotent God. Hillel was not asked "what is the most important religious principle," he was asked to explain Torah; these are two different questions. Your comment is not logical. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

This derives from Leviticus 19:18 "Love thy neighbour as yourself" and verses 33 and 34 - not to discriminate the stranger, you shall love him as yourself.

This means that the set of mitzvoth (commandments) between man and man is a better starting point that the set between man and God (ceremonial laws).

It might mean that Hillel might have believed it. At best this is one view among many. Another view is that the two approaches are both important and valid. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

A rabbinic general principle to act to prevent the suffering of living things tza'ar ba'alei hayyim is derived from several specific laws on this matter.

The essential view of Judaism is that the oral law supercedes the written law (this is stated specifically in the Talmud) and that there is a practical tradition regarding hospitality, non-discrimination of foreigners, to care for the widow, the orphan and the poor etc and that this is torath hayyim - the living torah.

The traditional practice of Judaism revolves around study and the observance of God's laws and commandments as written in the Torah and expounded in the Talmud.

This quote echoes the point you make just before it, so I assume you would agree. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

No, it relies on distinguishing between good and evil, and doing good (Psalter ref later). In order to follow the torah without harming people and living things, it is necessary to have knowlege (this is one point where Judaism and Budhism coincide). Without knowledge, it is not not possible to do good and exercise compassion.

Agin you create false dichotomoes. Why can't stuyding God's laws be a means of learning to distinguish between good and evil and doing good? Slrubenstein | Talk 21:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The first prayer in the eighteen benedictions (tephilah)is for knowledge, insight, understanding, wisdom.

Therefore prayer and study are equivalent, and Jewish services include study (eg a recitation of the 13 priciples of interpretation of the torah of Rabbi Ishmael in the morning service) and Pirkey Aboth on Sabbath afternoons.

Another non-sequitor, this is just sophistry. Torah and Avodah are both important and no one denies this, but that doesn't make them equialent. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The qualities of God enumerated by Moses (hanun ve'rahum, hesedh) compassion, lovingkindness have been passed on to Christianity and Islam (where some words are identical in Hebrew and Arabic).

I do not recognise Judaism as a religion from the description in the article. It is presented as a fossilised, dusty, legalistic irrelevant religion and I know this from other sources to be a Christian view.

I do not know why you find the Torah and Talmud dusty, fossilized, or irrelevant. You have some bias against Jewish law, but what is wrong with Cristianity is not that they acknowledge the importance of law in Judaism but that they think it is fossilized and dusty. Since you think it is fossilized and dusty you think just like a Christian and it seems to me you are just pushing a Christian POV here. Slrubenstein | Talk 21:16, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

This view is sometimes presented in church sculpture as the synagogue represented by a female with a broken staff (superceded by the church) The essential characteristics of Pharisaic judaism in Hillel's traditon are taken over by the church and Judaism described as a passé, fossilised religion 15:52, 30 May 2008 (UTC) RPSM (talk) 09:54, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

I would say that the deficiencies that you've pointed out are more a result of secular academics thinking they know better. Whatever the case, you've certainly done this article good by noting some of the obvious flaws in the content. Still, I would caution that there are different views within Judaism itself about how it is distinct as a religion. As per Wiki practice, show your sources. Nautical Mongoose (talk) 20:28, 30 May 2008 (UTC)

The wiki article kicks off with the introductory paragraph to the article on Judaism in the Jewish Encyclopedia of 1905 by Kaufman Kohler.[[2]] but incorporates none of the points made in that article as for example that Judaism has no dogma and no creed or belief system by means of which entrance is gained to the religion. The article is here:[3] What is the point of reproducing one encyclopedia by copying it into another? The question has already been asked on one wiki discussion page regarding The Jewish Encyclopedia of 1905. RPSM (talk) 19:27, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for your kind comments. "Far from having become 1900 years ago a stagnant or dried-up religion, as Christian theology declares, Judaism has ever remained "a river of God full of living waters," which, while running within the river-bed of a single nation, has continued to feed anew the great streams of human civilization."

Then the wiki article goes straight ahead to expound the Christian theological position of Judaism as a dusty religion of rabbinic sophistry.

The Jewish Encyclopedia 1905 article says that entrance to Judaism is not by way or a creed or set of beiefs, and then goes on the quote Maimonides Thirteen principles of the faith as if it were a creed, which it is not. (No, you cannot find it in every prayerbook and it does not form part of any synagogue service and is disputed as being given too much importance.)

Judaism doen not work like Christianity and is not based on Christianity. Neither is Christianity based on Judaism. RPSM (talk) 18:50, 1 July 2008 (UTC)

The latter may not be based on Judaism, but it originated in Judaism and therefore incorporates many things that can be traced back to Judaism. Debresser (talk) 01:23, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

Recent change

Today SLRubenstein edited the lead to read "many consider it a monotheistic religion". Does anyone not consider Judaism a monotheistic religion? There's also a markup error with that edit, so I'll probably revert the whole edit until this discussion is resolved. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 15:32, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

If that is your only problem with what I wrote, I have no objection to modifying it. I realize now the phrasing is ambiguous. I do not think anyone questions that it is monotheistic; I do think there are scholars who resist labeling it a religion. Suggestions? Slrubenstein | Talk 17:01, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

I'm new to commenting on Wikipedia so forgive me if I do so inappropriately. I saw earlier on this page the quote "Views that are held by a tiny minority should not be represented except in articles devoted to those views." Unless these scholars represent a large minority (and I find that hard to believe) you should not cloud the article. Furthermore, if their objections are based on a different interpretation from the majority of what is needed to be called a religion, the objections should be referred to in the article on religion. If a large minority of scholars differ in their interpretation of Judaism to the extent that they think it doesn't qualify as a religion, that must be stated here explicitly with citations.78.146.203.162 (talk) 15:23, 29 December 2008 (UTC) Jon.

There are a few problems with the version Steven J. Anderson reverted to. For one thing, some sloppy writing - "principles and ethics" well, aren't ethics a kind of principle? And doesn't principle leave out the whole notion of practice, which is central to Judaism? Also, there are a lot of historians who would argue that to say Islam "originates" in Judaism is at best a serious distortion; some question the same claim about the relationship between Judaism and Christianity. I tried to provide language that was more open to different views (without excluding this one view). Although Orthodoxy (and many Conservatives) claim a clear continuity between Rabbinic Judaism and Israelite religion, many historians question this, vigorously. Again, I didn't want to write anything that excludes this view, but the introduction has to be inclusive of other views. Many scholars question the appropriateness of applying the word religion to Judaism given that much of the Talmud relates to civil law and the Western notion of religion may not have existed in Rabbinic or even Biblical times. Again, this does not mean that there are no people who consider Judaism a religion, I know many do - but the introduction has to be written a way that does not exclude other significant views. One constant in the Bible (indeed, virtually every book of the Bible) and the Talmud and later Jewish literature is the notion of covenant, a term so central to Judaism that it is somewhat surprising not to see it in the intro; I remedied that. Slrubenstein | Talk 17:12, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

To clarify, I wasn't as opposed to the entire edit as it may have seemed from my wholesale reversion. I just saw what I thought were a couple of problems and figured the best way forward was to revert and start over. I have to run out and haven't got time to really look at it again. I'll post more later. --Steven J. Anderson (talk) 17:33, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Cool, I restored what I wrote but made one change in an attempt to address your stated concern ... maybe you can come up with something better... Slrubenstein | Talk 19:53, 15 December 2008 (UTC)

Are we referring to ancient Henotheism (ie: there are many gods for the various nations but my God can beat up your god) or to issues with modern Kabbalah? or something else, perhaps? Valley2city^‽ 06:28, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

No, see what I wrote above. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:55, 20 January 2009 (UTC)

The article should have been written by an Orthodox Jew

I believe that this page should have been written by an orthodox Jew so that this would be more accurate. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Dylanluvr01 (talk • contribs) 02:07, February 5, 2009

There's enough religious Jews around here to correct whatever needs correcting. Debresser (talk) 01:24, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

You mean make it biased to the jewish POV.--Ssteiner209 (talk) 13:30, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Please refrain from making unconstructive commentaries in the future. Debresser (talk) 13:36, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

... It's not nonconstructive: if we allow somebody who will have a favorable view of the topic write it: it will have a POV in it, --Ssteiner209 (talk) 13:39, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Debresser. Regardless of how hard you try, it's very hard to un bias. --Île flottant (talk) 23:54, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

The best way to address bias is to encourage loads of POV editing. Seriously. See my essay. --Dweller (talk) 11:06, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I rather think that a Jewish person would probably know a bit more about the subject of Judaism than a Gentile would, Jakezing. If it has a "pro-Jewish bias" (whatever THAT means) as a result, you can edit it to your heart's content to improve it. After all, that's how the Wiki works. Asarelah (talk) 16:11, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh boy. Let's be dan l'kaf zechus and assume that what Debresser means is that in light of the fact that there are many scholarly sources from the Orthodox perspective, but since a lot of them are only in Hebrew, there are enough editors to be able to use their knowledge of the Hebrew sources to inform their efforts to provide balanced and neutral content. -shirulashem (talk) 20:08, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Actually, what I meant is that we do not need the article to be written by an orthodox Jew, because there are enough orthodox Jewish editors around here to correct any mistakes or POV's made any editor who is not an orthodox Jew. Debresser (talk) 20:57, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

Oy. You're surely not implying that this article must be written only from the Orthodox view, are you? That is, by definition, NOT NPOV. -shirulashem (talk) 22:18, 7 July 2009 (UTC)

No, that is definitely not what I was implying. I said that there are enough orthodox as well as other editors to reach a nice, balansed, non-pov version. Debresser (talk) 06:06, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

Ok, good. B"H. Just making sure. ;-) -shirulashem (talk) 12:33, 8 July 2009 (UTC)

"the distinctive characteristics of the Judean eáqnov"

Does anyone know what this means? I suggest it's removed. --Dweller (talk) 15:42, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

As it comes from the most authoritative scholar on the topic, and a verifiable reliable source, I see no grounds for removing it. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:14, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

No, but I think it should be modified to "Judean ethnos" or "Jewish people". The source refers to ethnos but not eáqnov. In any event, eáqnov is the Greek word ethnos. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] ([[::User talk:Malik Shabazz|talk]] · [[::Special:Contributions/Malik Shabazz|contribs]]) 20:33, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

When I entered it in originally, I used Greek letters, or thought I did. I used the original book which had Greek lettering (I think Malik is linking to the preface or introduction; the page I actually quoted from - or the chapter ant any rate where Cohen provides an in-depth analysis of the origin of the word, he provides the actual Greek). I think since that time WIkipedia has changed its code. If someone can replace it with the Greek, I think that would be appropriate. We can then put "ethnos" as a transliteration after. That way we are true to the source and more accessible. Then the question is, should "ethnos" link to Ethnic group or is there a more appropriate article to link to? Slrubenstein | Talk 20:56, 10 February 2009 (UTC)

It looks like the term has become disconnected from "from the Greek Ioudaïsmos" with which it was originally coupled. It makes no sense where it is currently and I'm not sure what it adds anyway. Although I don't dispute it's veracity, this is an encyclopedia, not a dictionary, nor a Greek grammar primer, and showing the derivation from Greek is probably enough, without needing to show from where the Greek term Ioudaïsmos derives. --Dweller (talk) 09:57, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia is not paper. Keeping one Greek word adds information that will be of interest to some. Maybe not you, but few articles are of entire interest to everyone. Before I added this sourced etymology, there was an unsourced etymology that was not supported by any scholar of linguistics or of history. I see no problem with being clear. Why don't we focus on adding more quality sourced content, rather than discussing this trivial matter. One Greek word does a little bit of good and no harm. Slrubenstein | Talk 16:48, 11 February 2009 (UTC)

"Ethnos" is a Greek word. I'd have thought eáqnov was merely an attempted transliteration or transcription of that Greek word:

εθνος

$\varepsilon \theta \nu \mathrm {o} \sigma \,$

(I don't know how to do the "final sigma" character in TeX.) "eáqnov" isn't written in Greek letters at all. What's going on? Is "eáqnov" supposed to be a transliteration or is it an unsuccessful attempt at rendering Greek letters?

eáqnov was my attempt to copy a Greek word in a book (hardcopy) I was using as a source - I do not have the book on hand but believe the author used the original Greek in Greek letters in the text - to Wikipedia. I think I tried cutting and pasting the word I found in the book, from some online source. My recent edit "ethnos" was my guess of what that word should be transliterated as in our alphabet. But if something is screwy here, I think it is "ethnos" and not "eáqnov". Sadly, I do not have a hardcopy of the book at hand. It would be good to check it. Cohen is a very careful historian and the article (the book is a collection of previously published articles) is asking, "when did a word for "Jewish" that means something other' than "member of the tribe of Judah" first appear. Since there is no original concept for Jewish or Jewishness in Hewbrew (except as a member of the Tribe of Judah), the concept he argues (with good evidence) comes from Greek. His argument is that people got a concept of ethnicity or nationhood from Greek, and then applied it to themselves, and created a new Greek word to express a "Jewish" identity that did not hinge on being a member of the tribe of Judah ... and only later, did people take the Greek neologism and use it to create a Hebrew neologism (well, neologisms 2000 years ago). Part of his argument is that Jews were adopting a Greek concept of "eáqnov" so the original Greek word and what it meant to Greek-speakers 2000 years ago is important. Does anyone have access to a real library that has a real copy of Cohen's book? Google books only gives access to the introduction to the book which does summarize his conclusions but the scholarly research is in the body of the book. Slrubenstein | Talk 19:55, 15 February 2009 (UTC)

Needed correction to main article on Judaism

According to Jewish tradition, God established a covenant with the Israelites and their descendants, and revealed his laws and commandments to Moses on Mount Sinai in the form of both the Written and Oral Torah.

That is inaccurate. God revealed himself to the entire Jewish nation on Mount Sinai, and gave them the Torah. The Bible vividly describes God's revelation to the people. (This is essential to any article or entry on Judaism, as it reveals the validity of the religion. Hocker987 (talk) 02:57, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

So what the difference between you and the article? Debresser (talk) 12:10, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I think Hocker is right. There may be a differnce between the account in Exodus and in Deuteronomy but perhaps the solution is to reword it "revealed his laws and commandments to Moses and the Children of Israel on Mt. Sinai" (saying "Jews" is anachronistic). Slrubenstein | Talk 13:33, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I think Hocker's problem is that according to Jewish tradition the "to Moses" bit is only true for the Oral law, but is inaccurate for the Written law, which was revealed to all the people simultaneously, and, indeed, according to midrashic sources, all Jews who will ever live were there too and heard it. I'd suggest replacing the sentence with:

According to Jewish tradition, God established a covenant with the Israelites and their descendants, and revealed his laws and commandments on Mount Sinai in the form of both the Written and Oral Torah.

Hope that helps, --Dweller (talk) 13:50, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Why not stay closer to the wording of the Mishna (Avot 1,1)? Especially since not to mention Moses would be withholding important ad well-known information. What about According to Jewish tradition, God established a covenant with the Israelites and their descendants, and revealed his laws and commandments on Mount Sinai through Moses in the form of the Writen and Oral Torah? Debresser (talk) 16:38, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I like what you're trying to do, but it still falls foul of all the people hearing the Written Law. Perhaps we should spell it out then: and revealed his Written Torah to all the Israelites at Mount Sinai, followed by expounding the laws and commandments through Moses in the form of the Oral Torah? Perhaps could be polished, but is more accurate and easier to understand at a glance. --Dweller (talk) 16:49, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Shalosh regalim

Very minor correction: under the Three Pilgrimage Festivals instead of Shalosh Regalim it should be Shlosha Regalim שלושה רגלים Talya Kurland (talk)

I've never heard them called that. Is that a Diaspora/Israel thing? --Dweller (talk) 18:18, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Actually, I think you're just mistaken. It's definitly shalosh regalim. --Dweller (talk) 22:14, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

"Regel is female, so "shalosh". If it were male, it would have been "shlosha". Don't let the male "–im" ending trick you into thinking it is male. There are many words on "–im" that are female, and many on "–ot" that are male. Debresser (talk) 22:55, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

"As such, many consider it the first monotheistic religion"

The statement in the lead has no citation and uses weasel words (who is "many"?). There are many references that put Atenism as the first monotheistic God and religion - it was the official national religion of the people of Egypt during the time of Akhenaton's rule and the Wikipedia article itself states "Atenism is one of the earliest known, well-documented, monotheistic religions".

There are whole books written just on the topic of Atonism and monotheism:

• Akhenaton and the Aton : The early spark of eastern monotheism
• Monotheism in Akh-en-aton and the second Isaiah
• The Two Reigns of Tutankhamen quote "The new religion denied the existence of all other gods but Aton. It was a monotheistic religion - the first in the history of mankind."
• Akhenaten and the Religion of Light Amazon synopsis 'Akhenaten, also known as Amenhotep IV, was king of Egypt during the 18th Dynasty and reigned from 1375 to 1358 BCE. Called the "religious revolutionary", he is the earliest known creator of a new religion. The cult he founded broke with Egypt's traditional polytheism and focused its worship on a single deity, the sun god Aten.'
• Philosophy, Literature, And Politics quote "institutionalized with the sun-god of Aton the first monotheistic religion in the expanding Egyptian empire."
• Akhenaten "Akhenaten would have been an anomaly in the history of any country. He is credited with establishing the world's first monotheistic religion-the worship of Aten represented by the Sun Disk."
• Nefertiti quote "Akhenaten's Atenism has frequently been interpreted as the world's first monotheistic religion"

There are hundreds of others. Josh Keen (talk) 18:47, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

Although I see the merit of your arguments, let me try to challenge them a little.

1. Atenism was pratices for only 20 years, according to our Wikipedia article. Which might turn it into no more than historic curiosa.
2. It might be that Judaism is called the first not so much in the purely chronological sense, but in the sense of being the first of a new type of religion, namely monotheism. There seems to be ample basis to support the thesis that Judaism was the first of the series Judaism-Christianity-Islam.
3. Atenism was practiced in the 14 century BCE. The historic date for the revelation at Mount Sinai is 1312 BCE, which is also (late) 14 century BCE. Add to this the uncertainty in dating Egyptian Pharaonic dynasties, and the question "who was first" becomes an uneasy one.
4. Do not forget that Judaism claims monotheism for 6 additional generations before Moses and the Sinaic revelation (from the times of Abraham, to be precise).

Debresser (talk) 20:38, 9 March 2009 (UTC)

1. Neil Armstrong only went to the moon once. He was still the first.
2. I do not know what you mean by it being a "new type of religion". Clearly Atenism was also a "new type of religion" - as the Amazon text above says, Akhenaten was the "earliest known creator of a new religion". The existing text in the article strongly implies a chronological sense - if this is not what is meant, then the text should be more clear - perhaps "Judaism is monotheistic, and predates Christianity and Islam".
3. The variation in historic dates for the rule of Akhenaten is only two years. Akhenaten proclaimed monotheism in year 9 of his reign, that would be 1342BC - 1344BC. That is still many decades before Mount Sinai. In fact, Akhenaten#Akhenaten_and_Moses states "Akhenaten appears in history almost two-centuries prior to the first archaeological and written evidence for Judaism"
4. This comes down to the question of when Judaism as a religion began. If it is claimed that this occurred during the period of Abraham, then all of the other Abrahamic faiths could also make the same claim to being the "first monotheistic religion". If it was at Mount Sinai, then it was too late to be the first.

Are there are citations to the claim that Judaism predated Atenism?

Josh Keen (talk) 12:31, 10 March 2009 (UTC)

This very article says that "Abraham, hailed as the first Hebrew and the father of the Jewish people, rejected the idolatry that he saw around him and embraced monotheism". This is according to the point of view of Judaism. Since Abraham lived some 200 years before Moses, as far as I am concerned this is a conclusive refutation.

The main other Abrahamic religions - Christianity and Islam - were developed after Judiasm, so they can not make a claim to being the first monotheistic religion. The snaller Abrahamic religions and their possible connection to Judaism I am not familiar with. The article Abrahamic religions says about this "The Abrahamic religions are related to (or even derived from) Judaism", which also doesn't help very much in clarifying this question in a scientific way. Debresser (talk) 17:26, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I'll need to check this, but I'm pretty sure Abraham died a lot more than 200 years before the birth of Moses. I'll be back. --Dweller (talk) 18:20, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

I seem to remember he died precisely 200 years before the Sinai revalation. But memory does play tricks sometimes. Debresser (talk) 19:47, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

Some OR: Abraham was 100 when Isaac was born. Isaac was 60 when Jacob was born. Jacon was 130 when he arrived in Egypt. The Israelites spent 430 years in Egypt. Abraham died aged 175. So 60+130+430-75=545 years. --Dweller (talk) 22:24, 11 March 2009 (UTC)

The Israelites spent only 210 years in Egypt, not 400 or 430. This is a known mistake. But still safe to say that this was before Amenhotep IV/Akhenaten.

I still think that it is possible that the words "first monotheistic religion" might actually mean "the first of major monotheistic religions". This is what I meant with my first 2 arguments. Debresser (talk) 18:24, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

The Wikipedia article about Abraham says "Abraham lived AM 1948–2123". The revalation on Mount Sinai was in 2448, if I'm not mistaken. And yes 325 years is also what you get when you sustract those 220 extra years from the 545 you mentioned. Debresser (talk) 18:29, 12 March 2009 (UTC)

Gotcha. Raised an eyebrow myself at 430. Still, 325 is a lot more than 200. :-) --Dweller (talk) 16:37, 13 March 2009 (UTC)

I probably got mixed up because he was born precisely 500 years before the Sinai revalation, and I remembered there was some round number. Debresser (talk) 18:11, 14 March 2009 (UTC)

Judaism is the first WELL known and sourced monotheism. I have doubts that at no point in the 8000/200k history of humanity there were not earlier one god religions.... and if we believe Hinduism, then we have the fact it's both poly and mono! Second: using the Jewish history would be unfair: Judaism has it's roots going back to adam and eve.... and it's not fair to use a calendar that says the roots of your religion were at creation. SECULAR HISTORY ONLY PEOPLE.

--Ssteiner209 (talk) 13:38, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Page Is To Long

This page is too long, please condense. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.180.120.167 (talk) 12:16, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

The article is very long, and probably should be summarized a little. Thanks for the suggestion. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 22:47, 7 April 2009 (UTC)

I've seen articles a lot longer and a lot less informative. Debresser (talk) 09:31, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

The Manual of Style says that "Readers may tire of reading a page much longer than about 30 to 50 KB, which roughly corresponds to 6,000 to 10,000 words of readable prose." This article is 53K and 8668 words. It also says that "One rule of thumb is to begin to split an article into smaller articles after the readable prose reaches 10 pages when printed." This article is more than 26 pages (stopping at the See also section).

As informative as the article is, it isn't helpful to the reader if she/he doesn't make it to the end. We should probably move portions of the article to separate articles and use summary style, and where this is already the case, we should try to be more concise. — [[::User:Malik Shabazz|Malik Shabazz]] (talk · contribs) 17:01, 8 April 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't aware of that part of the Manual of Style, so thank you. I do see a contradiction here: 53KB and 8668 words are both still within the limits (since the extra KB's are probably images), but 26 is way over 10. Any explanations? Debresser (talk) 20:09, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I am generally in favor of creating separate articles over being more consize (because the latter usually leads to unclear and/or lacking information). Debresser (talk) 20:11, 9 April 2009 (UTC)

I prefer long pages: morep t learn and less clicking ot get to the info. The manual of style is bull.--Ssteiner209 (talk) 13:23, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

That's a valid point of view, as far as I am concerned. Debresser (talk) 14:11, 13 April 2009 (UTC)

Just a point I would like to make, having to navigate away from a page just to expound upon the information you need is a big detractor for the average consumer (a.k.a. reader) of an article. Most will want their information easily accessed and simple to navigate; as articles have quick-link categories the separation of articles into sub-articles detracts from the overall perception of the viewership. This is of course unless it is a branch topic that would warrant its own article like the countless number of links to specific nouns such as important people of a topic. 66.150.169.146 (talk) 22:14, 28 July 2009 (UTC)Taylor Apple Web Tool dev/DB engineer 15:12 July 28 2009

Prophets of Israel

There is currently no article for either Prophets of Israel or Jewish prophets, and no redirects to any related articles. A Google search under that name brings up over 4 million results, however. But there is a Wiki article called Prophets of Islam. Just curious why. --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 04:05, 2 May 2009 (UTC)

Paul of Tarsus and Judaism

I do not know why wikipedia needs two articles on Paul, but as of a few days ago, we now have two articles. Since the new article is half about Judaism, I figure people who watch this article would want to edit that one too. Personally, I have NPOV and NOR concerns. Slrubenstein | Talk 14:53, 28 May 2009 (UTC)

This areticle shows judaism mainly as a religion of yiddish-speaking, gothic jews!

where are the israelites?, the color?, the bible?, moses?, the authenticity?, the exoticism of ancient israel? put it in the article! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 79.176.114.172 (talk) 13:53, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

I don't think you understand that the article is on Judaism, not jewish culture, or jewish ethnicity. Technically, an Israelite does not exist anymore because the term for a person living in Israel is an Israeli. --Île flottant (talk) 23:57, 20 June 2009 (UTC)

If you were a bit more specific in your concerns, I'd be able to address them. Furthermore, what do you mean by "gothic?" Asarelah (talk) 16:44, 21 June 2009 (UTC)

14 months and counting

Luk originally locked this article against anonymous edits on on 12 May 2008. While I appreciate this is a hot button issue right up there with Islam and Kurt Cobain, I cannot see the catchphrase of Wikipedia's anyone can edit slide by without noting that it has been over a year since anon edits have been allowed on this article. Unlock it. 71.234.215.133 (talk) 10:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

In fact I only protected the article against moving, but considering how fast every attempt to unprotect was reverted due to vandalism, I'm not sure it'll go better this time than the others. -- Luk ^talk 12:13, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Let's try, but quite honestly, my money is on it being reprotected within the week :). -- Luk ^talk 12:18, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

If that'll be necessary, make it indefinite. Debresser (talk) 12:57, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

The request is specious. Anyone CAN edit -- with a login name. It's still as anonymous as an IP as long as you aren't using your full name.SkyWriter (Tim) (talk) 15:02, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps the argument of "anyone can edit" is specious; I will not argue that point and will allow it to lapse. The rest of the argument is valid - this is a silver lock article that has been locked for over a year. While my money says it would be re-locked in less than three days if it were unlocked, it still should be unlocked at least once. Silver does not equal gold. 71.234.215.133 (talk) 15:25, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Erm, 71, the article was "unlocked" two days ago. --Dweller (talk) 15:57, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

That the article has been unlocked is a great joy to me. That it has not already been relocked is proof I should not bet money on anything (no, I did not check the article's status before posting here, I was simply responding here). 71.234.215.133 (talk) 16:09, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Me neither, I was 100% sure we would have to reprotect it against "anonymous" editing within the week. :) -- Luk ^talk 07:35, 11 August 2009 (UTC)

"oldest" claims

The article lead contains the claim, softened by some weasling, that Judaism is

• considered either the first or one of the first monotheistic religions
• is among the oldest religious traditions still being practiced today

both claims are completely untenable, and are in no way substantiated in the article body.

I have no doubt that these claims can be found in print, but then we all know that all sorts of claims are made about the antiquity of religious tradition all the time. The question is, who claims this, and is the claim notable enough for inclusion. It doesn't have any truth value, in the sense of not even wrong.

If you take the "age of a religious tradition" to be the oldest bit of surviving liturgy (as the Hindus like to), even if the religion itself has morphed beyond recognition since that date, the Age of Judaism would be about 3,000 years, compared to 3,500 years or so for Hindu traditions, and 3,000 years for Zoroastrianism. And, of course, 3,000 years for Christianty(!), since Christianity has inherited its scripture from Judaism. Which establishes why this measure of the "age of a religious tradition" is meaningless.

If we measure the age of the set of actual beliefs and practices, Judaism will probably date to about 1,800 years ago, Christianity to around 1,600, mainstream Hinduism to about 1,300, but things like Shrauta ritualism to close to 3,000 years.

Let's not even begin talking about monotheism. There are reasonable grounds for claiming that pure monotheism did not evolve until AD 600 or so, and then in Judaism, Christianity and Islam simultaneously. Trying to push back "monotheism" as far as reasonably possible otoh, we end up with Atenism.

I am not suggesting we insert these facts & figures in the article, I am saying the "oldest" claims need to disappear from the article lead, and if they reappear in the article body, they need to be cleanly attributed to whoever is making them. --dab (𒁳) 15:24, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

We had some discussion before, here on this talkpage in this section . There is no consensus to such an opinion, so I undid your removal of these "claims", as you call them. Please be advised, that you are not the first one to have given this subject some thought, and Wikipedia is after all based on consensus, not on anybody's personal opinion. Debresser (talk) 16:16, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Can someone please provide reliable sources to back up this content? -shirulashem^(talk) 16:23, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I'll have a look soon. But first let me say a few things, partly along the lines of what I have said before in the section above.

1. User:Dbachmann's statement that "there are reasonable grounds for claiming that pure monotheism did not evolve until AD 600 or so" is unsourced and makes the impression of a fringe theory. Actually, all of his statements are unsourced, unfortunately. One of his sources likely was [4], written by Theodorus P. van Baaren.
2. The article specificely says that Judaism "is considered either the first or one of the first monotheistic religions", so there is no contradiction from the example of atenism.
3. Atenism was a shortlived religion. It was likely not widespread. It might perhas better be considered a cult, elevated temporarily to the status of state-religion by a local despote. The article on atenism gives every indication of this. (see e.g. Atenism#Decline_of_Atenism)
4. [5] says clearly "it is, however, clear that Akhenaton’s theology, if not fully monotheistic...", so that wasn't clearcut monotheism.
5. Judaism originates with Abraham, as stated in this very same article, who predates the time of atenism by about 300 years. (see Abraham#Dating_and_historicity and Atenism/Akhenaten for the dates)
6. In The Exodus it says that the exodus, and therefore the revelation on Mount Sinai, took place in "mid 15th century BCE". Many christian sources claim 1446 BCE (Google "Exodus 1446" and see). That is earlier than "14th century BC" claimed in Atenism. The traditional date of the Sinaic revelation according to Judaism is 1312 BCE, but with all of the uncertainties and conflicts in dating Biblical and Egyptian history, that doesn't really worry me.
7. We could always change this article to say "It is the oldest surviving monotheistic religion", and that would be undisputable.

Debresser (talk) 17:35, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Some sources I found:

• "Judaism is the oldest surviving monotheistic religion" [6]
• "Judaism is one of the oldest monotheistic religions" [7]
• "Judaism is the oldest surviving monotheistic religion" [8]

Debresser (talk) 17:54, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

So I think we can safely say "It is one of the oldest monotheistic religions, and the oldest surviving". Let's see if we can get consensus for that. Debresser (talk) 18:02, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Well, dab, it took you fifteen minutes to go from tagging something as dubious to giving up and removing it from the article. I have no problem with your putting on the "dubious" tag, but why not give people some time to ind sources? Debresser, I do not find any of your websites adequate. I would consider adequate works published by academic historians who specialize on these topics. Now, as for dab's claims: It will not be hard to find qualified experts who believe Judaism is the oldest religion still practiced today. I understand your argument that Judaism as we know it is "Rabbinic Judaism" which may even be considered a bit younger than Christianity. I would not object to adding this view to the article with a proper source (e.g. Boyarin's Dying for God). But that does not change the fact that other qualified scholars do in fact hold the other view, and that should be included too. Let's wait for Debresser to get a library card, and he may find some good sources for us. When i have a chance, I will look too. As for Judaism changing, well, we can easily argue that Christianity has changed so much since its founding that post Nicene Christianity cannot be compared to pre-Nicene Christianity. As for Hinduism, many historian consider Hinduism to be a construct of british and Brahmin scholars in the 19th century. Hindus will of course deny this, and perhaps some scholars, but it is widely held among secular historians of India, e.g. David Lorenzen's Who Invented Hinduism?. As for monotheism, there certainly is an argument that it developed amon Jews during the Babylonian Exile - Debresser, do not insult dab just because he did not provide a source. Maybe he knows one and was in a hurry. But do not confuse your not knowing a source for "therre is no source." I believe that Urbach makes this suggestion in The Sages (trans. Israel Abrahams, published by Hebrew University Press ... really Debresser, this is a scholarly source, not the BBC!), there are many Bible scholars who suggest the Ancient Israelites were henotheists. However, back to dab, there are also scholars sho claim antiquity for Jewish monotheism, such as Yehezkal Kaufman. Debresser, I wish you would not take this personally. None of our personal religious beliefs matter here, only finding verifiable sources for significnt views. So there is also no point in providing any arguments. i am not a professional historian, obviously you are not, and it is not our job to argue views, only to locate them in good sources.

Debresser, please do not rush to violate NPOV and NOR by suggestiong silly things like, "So I think we can safely say "It is one of the oldest monotheistic religions, and the oldest surviving"." Wikipedia is not about truth, only different views; there is no consensus among scholars that Judaims is the oldest monotheistic religion; your arguments are irrelevant. dab, please give some of us time to find them, okay? It may only take a few minutes to find a crappy source on the web, but if you want us to find good sources like leading historians, why not leave the tag in place a few weeks? And as I said to Debresser, your own arguments are pointless. Just provide reliable verifiable sources for significant views.Slrubenstein | Talk 18:38, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Sources come in various degrees of reliability. We should of course strive for the best sources available, but that does not preclude the use of other sources, as long as they don't fall in the category of unacceptable sources as outlined in Wikipedia policy. Furthermore, such sources will usually give an accurate indication or summary of what can be found in the better sources, once they will be found. So I do not think my proposal was rushing. At the same time I will, of course, welcome better sources then those available to me.

As to your words "there is no consensus among scholars that Judaims is the oldest monotheistic religion; your arguments are irrelevant". Please note that my proposed text does not say that "Judaims is the oldest monotheistic religion". As to my arguments, they were made for the sake of argument, by way of discussion. I am familiar with basic Wikipedia policies, contrary to what you seem to think of me, waving "NPOV and NOR" in my face. Debresser (talk) 20:09, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

Okay, Debresser, I should have known that the arguments were to make rhetorical points. It's just that in my expeience in situations like this resolution is usually achieved by agreeing on sources, and arguments usually escalate that. I just hoped to nip that in the bud. Oldest continuously montotheistic religion still practiced - yes, I think most sources would support you. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:43, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

I am glad we understand each other. Debresser (talk) 20:49, 5 August 2009 (UTC)

you can take or leave my points about monotheism, as I was not suggesting they be included in the article (but see the monotheism article if you are interested). I thank Slrubenstein for pointing this out to Debresser. If I was trying to introduce some date for the evolution of monotheism into the article, you would be justified in asking me for my sources. Incidentially, the most quotable source in the book would be Freud's Moses and Monotheism (1939), which suggested that the Jews simply copied the idea of monotheism from Atenism. Of course, nobody accepts this idea today, but it is at least very quotable and very notable, and may serve to start out the presentation of the history of the debate. I.e., this reference is sufficient to state that "Freud suggested that Jewish monotheism has its origins in the Amarna period", but certainly not "Judaism is aged 3,400 years" in Wikipedia's voice.

My entire point is that WP:CITE is not subject to any "consensus". If you want to discuss the "age of Judaism", do it properly, based on quotable literature, and not in the WP:LEAD.

I frankly see no reason to leave a totally unsubstantiated and obviously flawed claim standing "for a couple of weeks" until somebody compiles a proper discussion. The article will be much better off by not including flawed material until somebody comes up with valid material.

If you find an actual academic scholar of comparative religion making the "oldest" claim, I will be ever so happy to have it in the article, with attribution. As it happens, it isn't entirely clear what "monotheistic" is supposed to mean before the appearance of Platonism and the development of Hellenistic Judaism. For Alfred Jeremias (also not the freshest source, but also a classic), Judaism was simply a 6th century BC clone of Babylonian religion, with Marduk replaced by YHWH, i.e. monolatrism, not monotheism. When monolatrism turns into monotheism is anyone's guess, but it couldn't have happened prior to the Hellenstic period, because the philosophical concepts needed to distinguish monolatrism from monotheism simply weren't around before that. Judaism was signficantly involved in the evolution of monotheism, to be sure, and the article should do justice to that. But just throwing around some googled "oldest" claims isn't doing justice to anything.--dab (𒁳) 08:43, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

I added the sourced information outlayed before. If User:Dbachmann would like to add a section to this article expanding this information, that would certainly be interesting. Debresser (talk) 09:15, 6 August 2009 (UTC) Improvement of the references would also be appreciated, as said before. Debresser (talk) 09:18, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

User:Dbachmann might also want to consider that babbling about various fringe theories is even less preferable than bringing googled sources. Debresser (talk) 09:28, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

Yhezkal Kaufmann is an extremely well-regarded historian, more recent, with the advantage of more recent research, and more influencial than Alfred Jeremias, who has argued that the ancient Israelit's monotheism was both pre-Babylonial Exile and sui generis. Slrubenstein | Talk 10:35, 6 August 2009 (UTC)

wow, so pointing out classic references notable enough to even have their standalone Wikipedia articles is "babbling about fringe theories". I think Debresser should ask himself if he has any sort of emotional involvement with this topic, and whether this is likely conductive to encyclopedic contributions on his part.

Debresser, I have offered you a cheap way of connecting Jewish monotheism with the Bronze Age: "Freud (1939) has notably suggested that Jewish monotheism originates in the context of Atenism in the 14th century BC". You appear not to be interested in encyclopedic statements, however, you just want to see oldest religion in the lead, no matter how crappy the sources you drag in to support this opinion stated in Wikipedia's voice. --dab (𒁳) 15:59, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

dab, I do not know why you continue to mention Freud. he was not a recognized expert in Ancient Near EasternHistory and I think has no reliability on this issue. Kauffman is a far superior source, as would be Bright and Noth - there are many good historians who are well-respected on this topic. Not Freud. Slrubenstein | Talk 18:27, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

dab writes,"When monolatrism turns into monotheism is anyone's guess, but it couldn't have happened prior to the Hellenstic period, because the philosophical concepts needed to distinguish monolatrism from monotheism simply weren't around before that." Is that your opinion? Do you have any support (Freud is not a historian and does not count) from a 20th century historian of Biblical history or Bible critic? I know for sure Kauffman rejects your theory (not that your personal theories have any standing at Wikipedia). Slrubenstein | Talk 18:30, 7 August 2009 (UTC)

Dear User:Dbachmann. There is no contradiction between my proposal and Freud's fringe theory. This should answer all your concerns. :) Debresser (talk) 21:10, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

Since User:Dbachmann has repeatedly censored the line containing the "oldest" claim, including in its new version as I proposed here, I ask for mediation. My opinion is that this new version is true and undisputed (nothing said in this section disagrees with it); what is important in Wikipedia, sourced reasonably well; and has the ok of the other user who participated in this section. As such it can not be removed inside the rules of conduct of Wikipedia, and said user should refrain from doing so. Debresser (talk) 21:35, 8 August 2009 (UTC)

The Revelation on Sinai.

This is definitely a crucial Idea of the foundation of judaism which is not expreessed. "Still some more wondrous and imposing act of revelation was deemed necessary by God "to make Israel believe in Moses" for all time; therefore all the people were assembled around Mount Sinai "to hear the Ten Words spoken by Him from heaven," while at the same time His presence was manifested to them in a sight which made them tremble in awe before Him (Ex. xix. 9-xx. 22; Deut. iv. 10-v. 23, Hebr.). Through the Sinai assembly ("ma'amad har Sinai") the whole people became witnesses to the divine revelation, and at the same time were pledged to observe all the laws which God afterward gave them through Moses. This accounts for the prominence given in Scripture (Neh. ix. 13) and in the liturgy (Tamid v. 1, and the New-Year's musaf, "Shofarot") to the Sinai revelation.

Judah ha-Levi, accordingly, is in full accord with the spirit of Judaism when he declares the revelation on Sinai to be the great historical fact upon which the Jewish faith, as far as it is a truth revealed, rests ("Cuzari," i. 25, 87, 97; iv. 11); and this is also the rabbinical view. "The Lord appeared to the people of Israel on Sinai face to face in order to pledge them for all generations to come to remain true to Him and worship no other God." The Lord spoke with every single Israelite on Sinai, so that each heard Him say, "I am the Lord thy God"; as it is said, "the Lord spoke with you face to face in the mount out of the midst of the fire" (Deut. v. 4). He appeared to them in differing aspects ("panim" = "countenance")—now with a stern and now with a mild face, corresponding to the varying relations and attitudes of men and times (Pesiḳ. R. 20-21; Mek., Beshallaḥ, Shirah, 3). As a matter of fact and in contrast to all other descriptions of God's appearances to man, which at a later stage were taken figuratively (Mek., Yitro, 3-4) or which called for soferic alterations (Geiger, "Urschrift," pp. 337-342), or in which "the glory of God" was substituted for His presence (Ex. xl. 34; Lev. ix. 23; Num. xiv. 21), the actuality of the theophany at Sinai was always accentuated, even by Maimonides ("Moreh," ii. 33)." —Preceding unsigned comment added by Frumdude (talk • contribs) 02:26, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Salvation

Would people please comment here? I may overstate the case or oversimplify in saying that there is no idea of salvation in Judaism. My real point is that whatever Jews mean by salvation is so different from Christianity they are not well-served by being in one article. Perhaps Wikipedia could use a good article going into the long history of the concept of salvation in Judaism, but right now the current Salvation aricle is NOT "it" and I think the differences between Christianity and Judaism here are so great that it makes the intro an NPOV nightmare. Slrubenstein | Talk 20:58, 17 September 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if there is any one position Judaism takes on predestination. My Rosh Hashanah prayerbook says "On Rosh Hashanah it is written/On Yom Kippur it is sealed...Who shall live and who shall die...who shall perish by earthquake and who by plague... who shall be troubled (?) and who shall not..." or something like that, suggesting that traditional Jewish ideas consider predestination to be an annual thing. 68.32.48.221 (talk) 03:41, 20 September 2009 (UTC)