User talk:ThatPeskyCommoner

I still haven't been able to work out whether the Wikipedia Script was written as a surrealist modern tragedy, a cautionary tale, or a sitcom; nor whether my own part is that weird genius in the basement, the disposable security officer who gets killed within seconds of beaming down, Falstaff, or just yer bog-standard cameo appearance or comic relief ... Perhaps, when all's said and done, I'll turn out to have been Gaspode, after all ...

And here's an interesting thing: if a group of researchers had been tasked to create a working / hobby environment specifically designed to attract high-functioning autistics, it's hard to see how they could have come up with anything better than Wikipedia! If anyone's curiosity is piqued by this idea, do this test! "normal" people score generally under 20, people with high-level math functions often score in the 20-30 range ... and remember, the autism spectrum isn't a threshold, it's a continuum. As with many things, high-functioning autism isn't a "disorder", it's a difference in thought-methods.

This user is principle-centred and wishes everyone else was, too!

HFAThis user has High-functioning autism

This user is quite possibly Gaspode

5This user has 5 grandchildren.

50+This user is a quinquagenarian.

mesoThis editor is a mesopedian.

This user is a member of the Kindness Campaign.

Beware! This user's talk page is patrolled by talk page stalkers.

Stalker counter! User:Jake Wartenberg/centijimbo

Hello – and, sorry!

Hello Pesky, I was looking through some old stuff earlier and was shocked and appalled to see that, in April last year, I'd told Chzz that I'd have a look at History of the horse in Britain "some time soonish", but had forgotten all about it! All I managed to do was to try passing the buck (surely a stallion, in this context!) to Ealdgyth... Really sorry, real life excuses etc. I see that the History of the horse in Britain is now a GA, so I'm a bit late (typical British understatement) – I do tend to plough my own furrow in WP, but if there's anything similar I can do to make up for it, feel free to ask me directly, though I be not worthy etc... Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 15:52, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Hehehehe! No problems. I'm hoping to get some more material on the history of some horse-related things, add it to the article, and attempt to push it in the general direction of FA, at some point. I'd like to get The Meermin slave mutiny to FA at some point, too ... but it's that Real Life stuff again, keeps getting in the way! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 16:01, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Ah, thanks Pesky! Yes, I noticed the bit at the top about needless neurological nastiness in real life – one of many things I'd have left out (Parental Guidance: F-word! lol)... I have my own issues which, as far as WP is concerned, mean my access to sources can be frustratingly limited, but you win that contest by numerous lengths. I just had a quick squint at The Meermin slave mutiny, and thought I spotted a few bits and bobs I might change – my teenager is due to descend on me this eve for a film-watching session, but, when I get a mo, I might post some 'umble suggestions on the article's talk page...? Speak later then. Nortonius (talk) 17:01, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

If you see anything which needs a tweak, just go ahead and tweak it! The only reference which looks (at a first glance) "iffy" is the Mermaid Guest House one - but it's actually written by the same guy as this, so he's a RS on the subject. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 17:16, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok! Right now, though, my brain's creaking towards seeing how else that infobox image could be captioned, for example, and I don't want to ruffle any feathers by barging in on key features like - er - that one! So, anything you don't like, just revert it, take it to talk, whatever! I see what you mean about the Mermaid Guest House ref - but you should see the single most cited ref at Reculver, "Gough 2001": published by a caravan site, and only available thanks to the Internet Archive Wayback Machine! The author's had plenty of stuff published "properly", just, not that one! I've just started on trying to get it published somewhere more spiffy, but who knows, I'm not holding my breath... Anyway I wouldn't worry too much about your guest house ref for now, would be my take on it - we're both in the same boat! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 23:51, 26 January 2012 (UTC)

Maybe you've seen this but, if you can get to the library of the National Maritime Museum in Greenwich, or perhaps more likely get someone there to do a scan for you, or arrange an inter-library loan, there's an image in Groenewegen, Gerrit (1789; re-printed ?1969), Verzameling van vier en tachtig stuks Hollandsche schepen, entitled "Driemast Hoeker Zeylende voor de wind" (spelling? "Three-masted hoeker Zeylende before the wind"?) that might be just what's needed for the infobox at The Meermin slave mutiny. Given that the book was originally published in 1789, copyright should be no issue, and I say the National Maritime Museum because I didn't see it available anywhere else in the UK, maybe I missed other copies? The book is mainly illustrations, so they ought to be decent quality, but I've found it in a recent journal article where the quality is frankly - ugh! Thing is, I hate to say it, but the ship in the infobox isn't what you want. Let me know! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 01:24, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

If you could hunt down a decent image for me, that would be amazing. I can't get to Greenwich (full time carer for frail elderly parent with dementia, and Greenwich is too far away to take her!) If I could get a copy of the blueprints that the Ikosu(?) museum has, I could paint the damned ship myself for the infobox (had to do similar for the Ice Age Map in History of the horse in Britain – and the crayonning is cutely visible in the pic, bless! Naif art at its best?)

Meanwhile, this might amuse you – it's just waiting for the creation of PoetPedia ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:22, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Ah, The Saga of the Meermin! That's great, and I love your thinking behind it! I very much hope the Iziko museum takes it up, it's quite a story, and you make it very accessible. Actually, it also looks useful to me for all the refs– sort of a handlist of salient points with sources! Yes the Ice Age map is very cute, and does the job well, I only wish I could be bothered to do things like that... About images though, understood about Greenwich, perhaps an email to library@rmg.co.uk for the above 1789 hoeker image might do the trick...? Best be upfront about what it's for though, I would think– I once got a negative of something from the British Library with the proviso that I could only use it three times; but these days a scan of an 18th century book ought not to be a problem, if you get the right librarian, and ask the right way...? I'll keep looking, though: I'm a bit like a dog with a bone when it comes to that sort of thing, I keep coming back to it. Cheers for now. Nortonius (talk) 12:05, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Hello Pesky, you might notice I've just saved an edit of the Meermin slave mutiny. Let me know what you think? Don't be afraid to revert if you don't like it, I'll go away and leave it alone! But, while I'm here, I stopped where I did because I wanted to ask if you could clarify something: at present, the article has a period "from December to February 1765", should this be "December 1764 to February 1765", I wonder? Or were they sailing backwards? ;p I'd check for myself, but don't have access to the sources. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 14:09, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

I saw your edit, just as I refreshed my watchlist! Looks good; now I want another pic for where the ship used to be! December 1765 to February 1766 would be the dates there. I'm surprised nobody else noticed that! (including me - slapped wrist for me!) Pesky (talk …stalk!) 14:25, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Ah good, thanks! Yes, another pic would be good, at the moment I'm holding out for the one in that 18th century Dutch book - if we get that, I'd stick it in the infobox and move the painting back where it was. [sticks head tentatively above the parapet, wondering if he's up for it] Would you like me to have a go at emailing the Greenwich museum library for it? One can only try... About the dates, great, I'll work that into the article. By the way, I haven't spotted anything yet about who the ship was originally built for, any idea? Was it the VOC? Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 14:48, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

If you'd like to email them, do go ahead :o) I think it says somewhere in one of the refs that the ship was commissioned for the VOC. Probably in the Chandler one ... I'll check.

Ooh! You've tidied those, too! Thank you! And I wonder if I can edit out that horrible modern background from that replica ship .... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 16:14, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Thanks yes please check for commissioning! I agree about the hideous background, what were they thinking?! But, judging by descriptions I've read of hoekers, this is a classic example of the Meermin's type, and the date's about right! Note e.g. the "apple cheeks" of the bow. I'm thinking that's exactly the kind of picture I was hoping to find (and it was there at WikiCommons all along...!), short of a picture of the Meermin itself, without the hideous background, so that'll do just fine for now? (shame it's not better lit, tho) Maybe Jaco Boshoff will eventually provide us with the goods...! In the meantime, if you can edit the image suitably, that would be fab. Nortonius (talk) 16:27, 28 January 2012 (UTC)

Brit library - see Wikipedia:GLAM/BL, speak to Fæ (talk · contribs)  Chzz  ►  09:52, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I'm not far off finished "re-0painting" the background; hopefully will have it done by the end of today. It's a one-pixel-at-a-time job, in amongst all that netting, but should be worth it in the end :o) If it comes out trash, we'll have a look in the British Library. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 10:47, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

[whoosh! SuperChzz swoops by!] Hi Chzz! :o) Great tip - as always! Sounds interesting Pesky - I was thinking of asking a photographer friend IRL to have a go if you were stuck, because he absolutely loves re-touching photos in Photoshop (Not really! He hates it, but sometimes will if I ask nicely...), but it sounds like you're busy! Maybe we should talk to Fæ anyway...? I'd love to see a more detailed, 18th century illustration of an 18th century ship in the article, as well as the photo you're working on, if you're happy with the result! Nortonius (talk) 11:03, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

By the way - would you mind if I changed the date format in refs e.g. from "2011-01-01" to "1 January 2011" (appropriately formatted, of course)? I find the former confusing to the eye, but the latter straightforward to read. Really I ought to ask on the article's talk page, but you're clearly the main editor! Nortonius (talk) 11:53, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome to make any formatting changes like that which you want; I'll trust you! I quite enjoy working in Photoshop, actually – it's kinda soothing ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 12:33, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Great, thanks! And, whatever floats your boat! ;o) My photographer friend only really complains because he's usually too busy - erm - taking photographs! ;p Nortonius (talk) 13:08, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

More on the Meermin

 Done Ship ahoy! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 14:35, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

OMG - you're a [f]rigging genius! :o() No-one warned me, I'm scared now! lol No really, that's just brilliant. Ok my turn - I've found a journal article about the Meermin mutiny by Andrew Alexander, which wasn't cited in the article: email me if you'd like a look, and I'll see what I can do - assuming you don't already have it, that is! Yay for the ship photo! Nortonius (talk) 14:44, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Don't be scared; I'm harmless! Well, mostly ... With regard to commissioning, from the Chandler page it does look very much as though she was commissioned specially for the VOC. It doesn't say so outright, but it does say:

“The VOC stopped using hoekers towards the end of the 17th century,” explains Jaco Boshoff, maritime archaeologist at Iziko Museums of Cape Town. “But they constructed some periodically mainly for use at their colonies as multi-purpose vessels.” He says four hoekers were constructed in the second half of the 18th century for the Cape service ... “In fact the request for a new vessel from the government at the Cape in 1759 to their masters in Holland mentions the slave trade with Madagascar as one of the main functions for the new vessel.” ^ref

Point me at the journal article, and I'll see what other little nuggets of info I can dig out from it (if any). I'm still waiting for news of Meermin actually being identified, and archaeological work done one her. I have her on a Google news alert – so I'll get pinged the minute she hits the news! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 14:56, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, yes I saw that in Chandler (apt name!), good, I'll see about working around it. About the article, you should be able access it here, soz I only just found it available online there. If not you'll have to email me (via my user page, obv). Chzz already knows who I am IRL, so that'd be fine by me...! About latest news, great, it was something that I thought was missing from the lead, I'll put something in shortly. :o) Nortonius (talk) 15:12, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

I've found one extra factlet in that Journal, so I'll bung that into the article. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 16:28, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

So I see - I was doing something similar, but saw you'd already saved! Cool, I'll have another go in a bit, unless you give me the all-clear sooner. :o) Nortonius (talk) 17:11, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

You can have a go now - my neck's reminding me I should take a break! So she's all yours until tomorrow, if you like :o) Pesky (talk …stalk!) 18:18, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Ok, ta! Sorry about the neck - my eyes keep telling me the same thing...! :o( Nortonius (talk) 18:43, 29 January 2012 (UTC)

Well done for finding Koesaaij's death date – that was on my job list for today! :o) I'm going to upload a better-cleaned-up image of the ship, when I've tweaked it sufficiently to pacify my OCD ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 10:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

No problem - I've been reading Alexander 2007 especially, there are loads of juicy titbits in there, as one might expect! I'd started on putting some in the article, but the postie's just delivered something for Reculver, so I'm torn! Talking of torn, and your ObviouslyCorrectDisposition, the citations and sources at Meermin are a bit schizo at the moment - I've put some online sources in the list of sources, and left some in the citations, and this is why I changed the subsection heading "Bibliography" to "Sources". The ObviouslyCorrectDecision would be to have them both in one place or the other, but I haven't looked into any policy here - I might try sorting that out later, if you don't beat me to it...? In the process, though, I took out the ref to the Mermaid Guest House, as it's not needed any more - I think! It can always go back. Also gone are refs to Alexander 2003 - I think I've seen it described as "published" somewhere, but then, in Alexander 2007, p. 85(note 7) it's described as "unpublished", and I can't find it online anywhere, except merely listed. So, it can't very well be cited, methinks? Have fun with the photo - I'm so impressed with your first effort. :o) Nortonius (talk) 11:30, 30 January 2012 (UTC) p.s. I note that Fæ has been undergoing unpleasantness at WP:AN/I, so now may not be the best time to make contact re the hoeker image in the 18th century book, but it might offer a welcome diversion. I'll give it a go.

You carry on playing with text and refs, and I'll carry on playing with the picture. I thin Alexander's full thesis / theses was / were available on scientific commons, or something like that, can't remember exactly, off the top of my head. JSTOR or Wiley may have it, as well. I always find laughing at my OCD is one of the best ways to deal with it – at least acknowledging it is supposed to be a good step! Speaking of which, if you enjoy the same situation, I haz a NPOV version of the thing, and a userbox ({{User:ThatPeskyCommoner/OCDUserbox}} ) which you are welcome to share. Back to that picture ... the lower sections of the rigging are still looking a bit "heavy", to my eye ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 11:54, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

lol re the NPOV OCD! I've never been diagnosed as enjoying OCD, but I have noted such tendencies in myself! A friend is presently on course to becoming a chartered counselling psychologist, and I've been copyediting her written work: she dislikes the word "disorder" on principle, since it presupposes that something is wrong, whereas related clinical features are normally present in the wider population, and are therefore potentially correct– it's a matter of degree. Just thought I'd share that with you, not that you needed it! ;p

About Alexander 2003, I did notice that there were page numbers in citations– have you seen this BA thesis? There was a link to scientific commons, but following it got me nowhere– I currently have limited access to JSTOR (use that little nugget of disclosure by all means!), and I haven't found it listed there or at Wiley. If you or anyone else can get hold of it, gimme gimme! :o) Oh, and I've asked Fæ about the image. Nortonius (talk) 12:22, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

I managed to get temporary sight of some of it (I think I hacked into it somehow ... possibly a cached version; can't remeber exactly h ow or where!) He did both a BA and an MA one. It would be helpful if someone with scientific commons access could download it for us ;P C'mon, stalkers, now's your chance to shine! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 16:40, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Alexander 2007 is just one chapter of his MA, where he skips most of the story of the Meermin! [much wailing and gnashing of teeth] And his BA is alluded to often enough to make me positively squirm with frustration... I've double-checked Google, no cached version there now, that I can see. :o( Yes, hooray for stalkers, do your stuff! ;op Also, Fæ's kindly taken up the quest for that 18th century image, but who knows if a tame librarian will oblige, and it'll be a few weeks. TTFN. Nortonius (talk) 17:00, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Meermin part 3

I've cleaned up the rigging more; this version looks less hacked-about (despite being more hacked-about) ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 17:36, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Wow, you have been busy! I could see what you meant about the Moomin's lower rigging looking heavy before, it looks much lighter now - in this instance, to mangle Oscar Wilde, "the only thing worse than being hacked about is not being hacked about"! Nortonius (talk) 17:42, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Now there's a set of books I haven't read for a while ... I'm much happier with that rigging now. The problem with it before was that it was against that awful greenish eyesore of a building, which was a bit hard to get rid of without also getting rid of the rigging. Anyway, I think I can leave it at that, now. Heh! Either that or something will wake me in the wee hours niggling away about the anachronistic flags ... if I knew which flags would have been the right ones, I could probably touch those up as well! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 18:15, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Moominland... I never understood it all, myself! Probably too late now... The "awful greenish eyesore" is the Amsterdam Silence Museum, I expect you noticed that - for shame! When the replica ship is so magnificent, and something to so be proud of (unlike the history of the Meermin). I expect you've also noticed that pennants look to have been flown from the mast-tops, rather than flags, e.g. in the painting of 1792. Incidentally, you just might want to have a look at this site, which has lots of ship pictures on this page, though the best (and first) one's had its mast-tops cropped off [gah!]– actually, looking closely at the stern of the ship in the painting of 1792, I'd have thought it's the Noord-Holland, described here, if the file description didn't say it was the Noord-Nieuwland...? The intertubes can be a joy sometimes, but a right pest at others...! Nortonius (talk) 18:45, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) "Amsterdam Silence Museum"? I wondered if it was something to do with Anne Frank ... but no. Pesky, haven't you got a collection of gems like this? (Amazing photo manipulation, by the way - just reminds that you can never trust a photo of course!) PamD 09:16, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

lol– I'm glad you spotted that! But, I can't claim credit for it, it was wittily coined by a best mate's sister for the London Science Museum, c. 1980, when she'd have been about 23! :o) Nortonius (talk) 09:23, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

And here's the Meermin! Strange - they have her listed as a 450-tonner, despite being 110 ft long, as opposed to the usual 80ft length, 20 ft width Hoeker ... they also have a brief outline of the salve story; it's in Dutch, and seems to have nothing we don't already have! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 19:24, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, I got dragged away from the computer there by a friend bringing... BEER! Cool, I didn't stop to check for the Meermin– yes, that is odd. A swift calculation shows that 110 Amsterdam feet is just over 102' 2" imperial (thanks to Dutch units of measurement!), considerably more than 80' however you work it out; it also says that the Meermin "sank" on 9 April 1766 (if I've got the Dutch date format right), which is a bit late, since magistrate La Sueur got the bottled messages on 6 March...? A shame that there's this confusion, as it usefully says that the ship was built for the "Amsterdam Chamber" (of Commerce?) at the VOC yard in Amsterdam... Nortonius (talk) 00:26, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Pretty pics :o) Pages look so much better with a few pics ...

I think she took quite a while to break up, once she grounded. They auctioned stuff from her for about a week, and then just let her lie. The April date is possibly just her "registered date of destruction" Pesky (talk …stalk!) 08:56, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

I have now removed the flags and the mooring posts ... heh! OCD rules OK! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 10:07, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

From the pic on the left to the pic on the right! You may all express you admiration here ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 11:29, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I wondered if those posts and springs might go, but yes anachronous flags be gone! Awesome! :o) Those little elongated rectangular blocks that are still there were, I think, only for the modern mooring to those posts, so– um– they could go too...? lol One near the bow with another, longer one just to the right and lower down, then several more near the stern. As if you haven't done enough already...! About the end date for the Meermin, ok that makes sense– I'm thinking I'll add that website to the sources then, and cite it. It looks fairly pukka, if a little "quaint": there are no ads, but I haven't spotted exactly whose website it is yet...?

About the weight: are we sure that "480 tons burthen" is right? That's what the "best source" says? This is a confusing business, and trying to work it out has dun my brayne in. The VOCsite's "Laadvermogen" apparently translates as "capacity, tons deadweight", so that is "tons burthen", yes? Again via Dutch units of measurement, if we take the 17th century VOC's last of 1,250 kg and multiply it by 225, we get metric and Imperial ton(ne)s in the upper 200s; but, if we take the "later (to 1807) last of 2,000kg" and multiply that by 225, we get exactly 450 tonnes metric (or about 443 tons Imperial; or, is that a fail, somewhere along the line...?). But you think that's too little, and it should be "480". Well, I think my calculation of "just over 102 ft 2 in" Imperial is probably ok, so that's a tad smaller than "110 voet", but by a fairly significant margin in the range 80–110 ft. Just to confuse things, though (lol), I note that 17th century Thames shipbuilders had a rule of thumb that tonnage burthen was about 3/5 of tonnage displacement (i.e. the weight of the ship itself in terms of sea water– oh boy!). 450 tonnes metric burthen would then be 750 tonnes metric displacement. But maybe tons displacement are irrelevant to this particular issue? Thoughts...? And, I'm sure I've read about the "usual 80 ft x 20 ft" hoeker– can you point to it for me? Right now I need to lie down in a darkened room...! ;op Nortonius (talk) 12:30, 31 January 2012 (UTC) p.s. Boshoff (the man with the plan) says here that the Meermin was "about… 30–odd meters long, so that’s quite small", 30 metres being almost 98.5 feet– close enough to 102 feet...?

Hehe! Fried brains, anyone? Ketchup?

De hoeker was eigenlijk een vissersvaartuig (vandaar de naam omdat het met hoekwant viste), maar werd ook wel voor de koopvaardij gebruikt. In 1664 besloot de VOC dit schip in haar vloot op te nemen. De Kamer van Delft kocht vier schepen. De Rotterdamse Kamer was de eerste die in 1667 de bouw van een serie hoekers startte. Al na 1670 verdwenen de hoekers weer uit de schepenlijsten van de VOC. ... De meeste hoekers waren 80 voet lang en 20 voet breed en hadden een holte van 11 voet. De hoeker had een brede boeg en achtersteven. Zij hadden een grote en een bezaansmast met vierkante zeilen. De grotere hoekers hadden ook nog een fokkemast, zoals de iets kleinere fluiten. Het zeil van de bezaansmast was dan vervangen door een driehoekig Latijns zeil. Na 1670 werd nog slechts af en toe een hoeker gebouwd, zoals in 1695. Die was groter dan de andere: 90 voet en een duim lang, 23 voet en zes duim breed en een holte van 11 voet en 10,5 duim. ^{ref, VOCsite}

Translates approximately to this: "The hooker / hoeker was actually a fishing vessel (hence the name as fishing was done with hooks) but was also used as a merchant ship. In 1664 The VOC decided to include this type of ship in its fleet. The Delft Chamber built four ships. The Rotterdam Chamber was the first to build a series of hoekers starting in 1667. After 1670 there were no more hoekers in the VOC's ship lists. … Most hoekers were 80 feet (voet, actually) long and 20 feet (voet) wide and had a hole (cargo door?) of 11 feet. The hoeker had a wide bow and stern. They had a great mast and a mizzen mast with square sails. The larger hoekers also had a foremast and slightly smaller whistles. The mizzen mast sail was replaced with a triangular lateen sail. After 1670, only an occasional hoeker was built, as in 1695. That was bigger than the others: 90 feet (voet) and one inch long, 23 feet (voet) 6 ins wide, with a depth of 11 feet (voet) 10.5 inches."

Thing is, most hoekers were pine built, but Meermin was an oak-built ship, so would have been proportionately heavier for her dimensions than the standard pine-built ones (oak is significantly heaver than pine). I wonder if the VOC site have her burthen incorrect? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 14:57, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Hmm! Thanks! (yes I've got lots of ketchup, but I'm vegetarian!) From the context, and the fact that it's a measurement in only one dimension, I'm pretty sure that "een holte van 11 voet" is actually "a draft of 11 voet", i.e. the ship's "hole" in the water– I think that sounds reasonable, plus, according to this, the fluit, from which hoekers originated, benefited from shallower draft. I've been racking my brains (again!) to work out what "kleinere fluiten" are, but have got nowhere yet– I'd like it to mean "smaller jibs", but there are all sorts of things it could mean, some quite rude... Stop press– duh, what a brainfart that was, I already used the word "fluit"! "Kleinere fluiten" are "smaller boats"! [whacks self in the face with a frying pan, à la Shooting Stars] But, why only "slightly smaller"? The longboat and pinnace were tiny compared to the ship. Something still doesn't make sense. And, "zoals in 1695" looks like it might be an error for "zoals in 1765". So, yes, the VOCsite could have other details wrong! Maybe we should ask Mr Boshoff! :o() Nortonius (talk) 15:59, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Facepalm Erm, we could always try looking in that encyclopaedia thingie, and see if they have an article on Fluyt ships .... ahem. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 16:25, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

lol! Yes, I remember that wikie-thingy, but I read someone said it was "99% shit", or some such... By Jove, though, I think I've finally got it– "iets kleinere fluiten" are "slightly smaller boats [than e.g. two-masted hoekers had]"! Any good...? :'o( [weeps from brain-frying] Nortonius (talk) 16:37, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Yep, that does seem to be what it says! Don't you just love it when this happens? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 17:04, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

According to this, Oak weighs around 60% more than pine, by volume. Makes it unlikely that Meermin was 450 tons, and much more likely around the 480 tons. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 17:22, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Glad you like the theory about smaller boats! :o) But, for now it's OR...? And yes, oak is a much denser wood than pine, so lots heavier. D'you know what, I think I'm going to be a pest and email Mr Boshoff! Wish me luck– unless you can think of a reason why that might be a bad idea, other than maybe disclosure! Nortonius (talk) 17:39, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

That's a brilliant idea; good luck! Send him a link to the Saga of the Meermin, too; tell him I'm envisioning kids learning it, maybe turning into a narrative play or something. Fun way of learning. Who knows, maybe we can write Meermin – The Musical next! And see if there's any way he can let Wikipedia have a nice CC-BY-SA use of the images for the Meermin's blueprints – that would be cool beyond belief :D He could scan and email them to us. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 18:23, 31 January 2012 (UTC)

Yes I share your anticipation of incredible coolness! XD I only hope he's up for it... I hadn't thought to mention the saga and your thinking behind it, despite my admiration, does that make me a selfish oaf?!^{I'll only accept answers to that question from Pesky!} No problem, superb in fact! But, that could ultimately mean disclosing who you are IRL to Mr Boshoff at least, as well as who I am, and, once it's out there, who knows? Unless I were forever to be your go-between in this (Banksy? Who he?!), that is, and obviously I can stress in diplomatic terms that confidentiality would be "required"...?

About those bloomin' "whistles", though– I've just spotted that the Dutch quotation from VOCsite above says "zoals de iets kleinere fluiten". That sentence doesn't say that the "larger hoekers also had a foremast and slightly smaller whistles"– it just means that the "larger hoekers also had a fore-mast, as in the slightly smaller fluyts"! Phew, what a palaver– sorry, and thank gawd I noticed that before asking Mr Boshoff! :o) Nortonius (talk) 18:47, 31 January 2012 (UTC) p.s. I'm holding off emailing Mr Boshoff until I'm certain-sure you've seen my comments in the preceding para about potential disclosure, let me know! I've absolutely 0 intention to be patronising here, I know you're a "grown-up" and want me to email– it's just that I really don't want to be responsible for setting this train in motion without an explicit "go", in a re-assuring response to my scaredy-cat reservations about possible outcomes! I could post a "proposed email" in a sandbox if you like, suitably redacted of course...? :o)

I'm perfectly happy for the Saga of the Meermin just to be attributable to "Wikipedian, ThatPeskyCommoner", I'm not after any real-life recognition or anything! It's a nice little boost for Wikipedia down in the Cape - might get a few more readers / editors in from that part of the world. In terms of Jaco B. himself knowing who I am, if he wants to email me, that's OK by me. Now, if we had a Dutch-speaker on board here we could be certain-sure about exactly what the correct translation of that niggly little bit about the "kleinere fluiten" ... I read up several pages about "Dutch Flute Ships", and I think you're right in that it's comparing the Hoeker foremast to the smaller-fluitschippen foremasts, after all. Apparently fluitschippen were favourite vessels amongst pirates ... and no, you're not a selfish oaf, or you wouldn't be playing with the Meermin with me :o) If we can get those blueprints, I'd be dead chuffed. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 07:15, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Ta! And, me too! But– blimey, I just clicked 'Send' on that email, whatever next?! ;op Nortonius (talk) 08:28, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Meermin part 4

(If I may!) Pesky, I'm wondering what you might make of this: in Hogerzeil, S. & Richardson, D. (2007), "Slave Purchasing Strategies and Shipboard Mortality: Day-to-Day Evidence from the Dutch African Trade, 1751–1797", The Journal of Economic History, vol. 67, p. 163, n. 7, it says:

[According to] one of the [Dutch Middelburgsche Commercie Compagnie's] captain's logs… 13 [cheques]… had been entrusted to a certain captain Martynus Bruijne Hoogerzeyl of the ship De Meermin, for transport from Paramaribo [now in Suriname, in South America] to Middelburg [capital of Zeeland province, south-west Netherlands. Another log book entry] identified Martynus as captain of De Meermin, arriving in Paramaribo [on 24 February 1765] with 328 slaves from Angola.

A year earlier, surely a different Dutch ship– "De Meermin", not just "Meermin"– and in different places, but what a strange coincidence! Nortonius (talk) 09:46, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I wouldn't be at all surprised if there were several "Meermins" – it's the Dutch for "Mermaid". "Our" Meermin was commissioned in 1759; maybe she was sub-contracted for the other job? I know for a certainty that there was at least one other Meermin, at a later date; there was also the 1706 Meerman, and Martynus is likely to be as common a name elsewhere as Martin is in English-speaking countries. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 10:02, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that's pretty much how I saw it. I'd have thought that two "Meermin"s registered in the Netherlands at the same time might've raised some eyebrows, but for the facts that one was of Middelburg while the other was of Amsterdam, and that they were distinguishable by "De". It could have been the same ship chartered out to the MCC, but I think we'd do well to forget about that, unless a source turns up. Btw, I expect you've seen that I've sent the email, but did you notice PamD's comment above? ;op Nortonius (talk) 10:28, 1 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. I forgot to say that I added the meaning of the ship's name a few days ago! :o)

I'm not sure that putting "De" in front is actually a true reflection on the name of the ship, after all, in England people talk of "the" Ark Royal, when actually the ship is just "Ark Royal", etc. But the Middleburg vs. Amsterdam thing is much more definite, and I've just dredged this up from the VOCsite:

Op 27 januari 1761 voer op haar eerste reis de 'Meermin' uit vanaf Texel. Het schip bereikte op 15 juni daarop Kaap de Goede Hoop. Zij bleef dienst doen aan de Kaap tot 9 april 1766 toen het schip aan de grond liep en verging.
[On January 27, 1761 on her maiden voyage the 'Meermin' departed from Texel. The ship reached the Cape of Good Hope on June 15. She continued service on the Cape until April 9, 1766 when the ship ran aground and sank.]

So that's pretty sure; she never left the Cape service. Shal we set up our own private detective agency after we've written Meermin –The Musical ? ;P

Oooh, and yes, I noticed the "Silence Musem" as well – funnier thing is that our childhood / family nickname for the London Science Museum was also the Silence Museum! Of course it's changed now; they like kids to make a noise and have fun playing with things. Much better! My grandmother's huge mansion flat was five minutes' walk from Kensington Gardens, and my MI5 aunt took us around the museums occasionally. Of course, that was in the sixties ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 11:16, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Yep that makes sense, good that you found that at VOCsite! There was a similar discussion re HMNLS Gelderland nearly three years ago, as a result of which I moved the article, removing the "De". But I found that Dutch ships' names can begin with "De", and Alexander 2007 says much about a slave mutiny on De Zon, while calling "our" ship just plain "Meermin"– and ultimately saying bugger all quite little about the Meermin! :'o( So, I think you're right, there's no doubt about these ships' identities now. (There's tempting fate– bring it on!) Hmm, "Pesky, PI", with MI5 connections! Great minds think alike then, about the Silence Museum! My friend's sister is amazing with words. How about "I d'ofn'st", for "I don't"?! e.g. "I don't know" becomes "I d'ofn'st to know", or just "D'ofn'st"! Yes I remember hushed voices, with only the occasional sound ringing out through the echoing halls, in the '60s and later... Can't believe how long ago that is now. A different world. Sniff. Anyway…! Nortonius (talk) 12:00, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I come from a family whose profession was words; the place was littered with journalists, actors, and other strange people ... not only the MI5 aunt, but also this chappie from SOE was a close family friend (my grandparents often put him up in between his SOE missions, and it was my grandfather who gave him the original journalist "cover" to get into Spain in the Spanish Civil War). We're a damned odd bunch, really! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 12:14, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

And more nostalgia ... sniff, sniff ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 12:18, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Vaccinating stuff! An interesting lot indeed. My dad was a humble vicar, long retired now; but one of his maternal ancestors was a Cromwellian colonel in Ireland,^{Whisper it who dares!} through whom the family once had a seat in county Kildare, where it's still named on the map to this day! Another ancestor who was born there was Admiral John Fish, whose dad was sheriff of Kildare: in 1812, Adm Fish "substituted for Richard Nevill as Tory MP^What?! for Wexford"! You really wouldn't guess any of that from my family's more recent history, we're a very mundane lot compared to yours, by the sound of it. I've stopped sniffling now. I think. Nortonius (talk) 13:04, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

... my baby bro is officially GOD! (Group Operations Director for a financial company). Beat that! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 13:10, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

No contest! ;op Nortonius (talk) 13:44, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

• Even right back in the 50s the Science Museum had a brilliant (by those days standards?!) children's gallery down in the basement, full of buttons to push and handles to turn to see things happening. Not sure if I learned a lot of science, but I grew up with the idea that museums are fun places to visit! PamD 14:00, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes I remember that, it was indeed brilliant! I was very sad to see it'd gone when I took my own son there 15 years or so ago– the replacement seemed very uninteresting to me, and I don't remember my son being impressed with it, either… Nortonius (talk) 14:11, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

I like the engines; I've always liked the engines. Now, of course, one goes to the Science Museum and sees one's own old computer, kettle and toaster in there ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 14:28, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Heh, and now I'm feeling inadequate! With mother being particularly unwell and having to be syringe-fed, I haven't had time to do any more background reading for Meermin, or hunting out any more factlets, or anything except the picture. Ho hum. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 15:22, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, I'm so sorry, that does sound awful, for both of you… I can imagine your frustration in the meantime– my last experience of being a student was such a trial, owing to RL circumstances, that I then had the only migraines I've ever experienced, though the cause was very different. Well, I bear you in mind while I'm digging stuff up and banging it in– whether or not you'll like it, that sort of thing; and, btw, yes it's time for 2cols! But yes, I'm thinking of you, anyway. Two people I know have spent years of their lives caring for elderly parents. It's no fun for either of you. Nortonius (talk) 16:01, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Mother's sleeping most of the time, so not too stressed out, though she did have a couple of panic attacks (probably brought on by fever). She's better today than she was yesterday, but still completely unable to sit up at all, poor old thing! At least I find the "nursing" bit easier than the dealing-with-aggression bit (she has a kick like a mule when she's cross, and used to have red hair, too ... and she's recently discovered biting as a new technique; I had to laugh, she reminded me so much of one of our "wild" ponies, who does truly evil crocodile impressions whenever you want to give her a wormer ... ) Pesky (talk …stalk!) 16:17, 1 February 2012 (UTC)

Good to sleep when "particularly unwell" I'd take nursing over being kicked and bitten any day– I now have a strange visual image of a pony with a crocodile's "smile"...! By the way, Prioryman (talk · contribs) has answered the call to Fæ (talk · contribs) for that 18th century image, and I've stuck it in the article! Nortonius (talk) 00:26, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, brilliant! Just taken a look - it's great :D Pesky (talk …stalk!) 08:43, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Ah, glad you like it! :o) I had a go at squeezing a bit more clarity out of the image, but only managed to make the original caption more legible, so I've left it alone– I wonder if it could be done, though...? ;op Also, I've just swapped the map for one wot I made earlier, comparatively a close-up, with locations of– well, you'll see. Any good? The software I used is pre-2003 vintage, so "ATLANTIC OCEAN" is poorly rendered, and I do believe that the Scale has somehow become stretched– I made Stellenbosch to be about 91 miles from Struisbaai, but it looks much less than that via the Scale...(see p.p.s. below!) The whole thing could be cropped to show a suitable area around just the named features, but zooming the map has already made pre-existing elements start to break up. I could fix that, but then there's also the anachronous grey boundary line for the Western Cape province, and that would be beyond me… Otherwise I have my fingers crossed that you think it's ok. TTFN Nortonius (talk) 11:22, 2 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. Heyyyyy! I only just noticed you got rid of those mooring blocks, and did some more cleaning up! Yay! :o) p.p.s I just uploaded another version of said map with a more betterer Scale…

I can "disappear" that grey line; possibly even today. Depends on mother, and things (things?!) like that. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 17:15, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I bet you can– in your own time, obv! Actually, I wouldn't mind a bit if you'd rather starting afresh from the map's source, but that isn't a hint– just making sure you know that I wouldn't be the least bit offended. :o) Nortonius (talk) 18:04, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I've just uploaded the cleaned-up version; removed border, fined-down the rivers and the coastline (I thoughy they looked a bit "clunky"), and cleaned up a little bit around the text to make it appear less fuzzy. I'll download a copu of that other image, and see what I can do in terms of clean-up on that one, too. And, of course, any time you need an image cleaned up for any other article, do just ask me! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 19:29, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Brilliant, and thanks for the offer! You're clearly very adept at this. Btw, I hope you don't mind me doing so much to the Meermin– I've become a bit hoeked hooked by it, and I can imagine anyone finding it a bit irksome to have someone else come along and change so much of their hard work, especially when they have stressful distractions of their own. Do let me know if you think I've messed up at any time… I've been thinking for a while about putting another article up for FA, so maybe I've been whisker-washing a bit in working on the Meermin; but it does mean I can go and interfere somewhere else, if told to! ;op I have become a bit involved with the Meermin, though, it's a tragic but fascinating tale. Nortonius (talk) 20:20, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

To be totally honest, it's been really great having you working on this. It's nice to work with someone on something, especially when I've been wanting it polished up for ages, and have been lacking inspiration, motivation, and energy. I've done more with Meermin since you joined in than I'd done in ages, and it's nice to be feeling creative again. You've done absolutely brilliantly on it; I haven't seen any edit of yours that I'd want to revert (or generally even tweak!). You're very good ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 20:33, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Very kind words indeed, Pesky, and very re-assuring, thank you. It is great to have someone to work with, my one and only GAN so far was like that, with Senra (talk · contribs) as reviewer– I found it a very productive, collaborative effort, with Senra picking up on all sorts of things, making very apt suggestions and asking very incisive questions. All round a Good Experience– it fried my brain a bit with one or two things, but much of the hard work was put in by Senra himself, and personally I think the product was well worth the effort. I'm more than glad that you think what I've done is up to scratch; and you, you're a Photoshop wizard! That 18th century image is much gentler on the eye now. Ok then, I'll keep digging for the Meermin– talking of which, I haven't heard back from Mr Boshoff, but I'm sure he's a busy man, with plenty of other things to do besides responding to my pestering email! I have made a similar off-wiki enquiry before though, with charmingly helpful results– fingers crossed! TTFN. Nortonius (talk) 00:45, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Jaco B. is probably out there in the bay, Meermin-hunting, as we type! It's summer down there, and I know they were hoping to be doing a lot more in terms of locating her by now. They may even have divers out there ... it will be good to get an update from them, if we can. Some good pics, of course, would be even better ;P I'm still racking my brains to try and work out how I got a "back door" into the Alexander 2003 paper!

My motivation took a heck of a knock back in early December, and I very seriously considered quitting the 'pedia altogether. That, combined with a sudden deterioration with the neuro symptoms, has decimated the time / effort I was putting in before, but once I feel both emotionally and physically more able, I may even get back to a bit of reviewing at GAN. I did a couple, which were quite fun, but I'm not likely to review anything until I feel really on the ball again, it's not fair on the article writers not to be able to put one's heart into it. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 08:17, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Meermin part 5

Hey, look! I've just found this! I shall read it ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 08:52, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Heheyyy! And lo! you did read it! So, out with the Guest House, and in with the Wayback Machine! Now we really are in the same boat as Reculver, again! I'd decided that the "Transcript" was probably the "best source" we had for "details", and I see that these old pages from Iziko Museums back up that quote from Massavana– now this is the best source? I'll have a look as soon as! And, what a shame Iziko Museums dumped it, with the search for the Meermin ongoing...

Understood about "a heck of a knock"– I was aware something untoward was going on, from what Chzz was up to, but didn't know what it was about in detail. I started to read your subpage, but the link to Soxred93's "Edit Counter" wasn't working, and hadn't been for me for ages, in fact, so I stopped– just now, though, I checked the link and the Edit Counter's working! So, I'll try to have a proper look at "Case History" later. (btw, apparently I haven't "Opted In" to some features, but I haven't seen how to there, is it in my own preferences...?) I had a fairly intense spell with WP back in 2008, which is when I first ran into Chzz, but then quit for about 2½ years because something pissed me off so much– I was particularly fragile at the time, but still it was all just too much to be bothered with.

I'm probably about to get dragged off the computer for a bit IRL– have a look at this too: plans of a VOC hoeker called "Meermin"– I'll happily guess that the name "De Meermin" is the web editor's version, it looks like just "Meermin" in the plan, but sadly the resolution is too bad to be sure! Is it "our" Meermin?! Nortonius (talk) 11:22, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm finding quite a lot of useful stuff in there; the only challenge I really have is in working out how to get the refs working the same way you have them. If there's a page you can point me to which explains exactly how to do the sort you;re doing, in "strings of refs", kinda thing, style of kidney ... then I can suss that out and get all the stuff working in the same format. I have a named ref <ref name=IzikoArchive/>, but have no idea how that fits in with the style of citations you're doing. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 11:22, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Ooohh! I shall definitely take a look at that thingie, and see what I can make of it (mincemeat, probably, or a pig's ear ...) Chzz is absolutely brilliant; quite one of my favourite people here. He "has his little ways", bless him – but I love his little ways, and can adapt to them. Chzz was one of my hand-picked mentors when I came back to WP after a very long break, after a handful of edits creating the Collin Brooks article. And speaking of Chzz, and pigs' ears .... I left him some quasi-Macbethian sausages. I like them so much, I'm going to put them here, too!

	Witches? Really?!
	"Ear of sow and gut of boar, All the stuff which fell on t'floor, Snout of gilt, and one black rat Which drowned on falling in the vat, Butcher's thumb untimely chop'd And down into the mincer drop'd, Piglet's hide and youngling's pizzle In the sausage spit and sizzle. Pizzle, fizzle, spit and sizzle Barbie, if it doesn't drizzle!" Ketchup, anyone? [exit stage left, cackling]

Pesky (talk …stalk!) 11:36, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Hehe! When shall we three meet again, in thunder, lightning, or in rain?! Yes, I think of Chzz as a pal. Another quickie though– damn the resolution on this, ships ?being built in the VOC's yard at Amsterdam, one of them's said to be De Meermin, who knows? We would, but for the *@/~ing resolution! Grrr... About refs, basic idea is:

• set up "citation" templates like those for The Meermin slave mutiny#Sources– see Template:Citation, but I find myself only using Template:Citation#Books, and adapting it accordingly: different templates produce different results, e.g. full stop at end/no full stop at end, and consistently using one template gets around that; I never use Template:Citation#Web, because, as is, it puts a full stop at the end, and you don't always want it (there's a parameter for this, I'm pretty sure, but I haven't played with it yet)
• single inline citations in the format {{sfn|Lastname|year|p=}}, with no <ref></ref> tags, link to items in the Bibliography/Sources, as well as creating "Citations" entries with a full stop at the end, e.g. under The Meermin slave mutiny#Citations; multiple, identical citations like this will group automatically as "a b c"; with multiple pages the last parameter is "pp=", or for other things it's e.g. "loc=PlatenonbreakingspaceII, fig.nonbreakingspace2"
• for bundled citations (more than one ref in the same inline citation), use <ref></ref> tags, and substitute "harvnb" for "sfn"; other elements remain the same, though I tend to put "page=", "pages" etc. instead of "p="– I think "p=" etc. also work, I just can't remember right now; and, of course, using <ref></ref> tags means you can put e.g. online references in the same citation
• for "explanatory" notes (as you've seen, I call them "Footnotes"), I have only used this template so far: {{#tag:ref|blahblah<ref>citation</ref>|group="nb"}}, or of course {{#tag:ref|blahblah{{sfn|Lastname|year|p=}}|group="nb"}} (though, at Reculver, I've made an executive decision to change "nb" to "Fn", abbreviation for "Footnote", having read this– it's a thought, anyway); this template creates numbered entries as at e.g. The Meermin slave mutiny#Footnotes; if you want to use the same "footnote" more than once, name it as e.g. {{#tag:ref|blahblah<ref>citation</ref>|group="nb"|name=whatever}}
• Ealdgyth (talk · contribs) has pointed me to Template:Efn, which is a simpler variant of the preceding template, but, instead of numbering entries, this template lists them alphabetically, so obviously you're limited to using it only 26 times, after which you get "aa, bb, cc" etc., which I think is– um– a bit below par? Otherwise it's great; but I haven't used it at The Meermin slave mutiny, or anywhere else (yet!); obviously there's a need for consistency in the "appearance" of footnotes, so we couldn't have some as 1, 2, 3 and others as a, b, c.

Hope that's what you were asking, and I'm not just telling you stuff you already know! (I also hope I've got it all right…!) :o) Nortonius (talk) 14:44, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Eeeeeeeeek! Scrambled brain screams in horror! It will probably take me a whole day to get that lot properly stored in poor brain! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 14:48, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I know the feeling! Templates like this are sooo useful, but eek! What I've done, though, is save the templates I use most (like the ones I've nowikied above) somewhere useful, like in this sandbox, and then just copy & paste into my edit, and adapt accordingly! That helped me a lot, and now I often just type them in as I go– not being smug, just saying how it's become internalised over time...! :o) p.s. Check the diff for this for a couple of relevant tweaks in my preceding comment. Nortonius (talk) 15:16, 3 February 2012 (UTC) p.p.s. It's good to see you racking up article edits! :o)

Heh! Yes, I always put 'em in as I go (with a rare few exceptions). It's so much easier that way. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 15:21, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Phew! Well, I dragged out of that super source a heap of extra information; dates, names, places, loadsa stuff :D I still haven't managed to work out, from your info above, how to put a named ref inside a bundled wossnames-thingie; is it possible? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 16:49, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

So I see! Really fab. :o) No, you can't put a named ref inside a bundled ref(I think!)– you can easily get multiple, identical bundled refs, though, and you can give a bundled ref a name as normal, by all means; just, not the bits inside it, AFAIK. I'll happily comb that stuff down though, if you like, or you might want the practice…? Btw, I've realised that "quarterdeck" is an area of deck, whether built up or just part of the main deck, so the bit I put about quarterdecks and poop decks into the caption for that 18th century image can go. All a learning experience! :o) Nortonius (talk) 17:07, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I'll let you play with tidying up the refs as necessary, while I take a look at that link you gave me earlier ;P And I always thought that the poop deck was where the ship's cat had its litter box ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 17:48, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Ahh, just taken a look; that's the later Meermin, not our one. The date on it is 1783. Aha! But that other link - the plans - that's likely to be our girl. Dated 1760. I wonder if they have a hi-res version? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 17:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's where the cattain stood to command the ship, at the catheads! lol Ooh, are you working some kind of magic on those images?! I could read some words, but not nearly enough, and my eyes were protesting… I'll fix that image caption if you don't beat me to it, and do some tweaking too, though I have a pal coming over again this eve. Nortonius (talk) 18:01, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Meermin! Definitely our girl; I haven;t managed to find any higher res than this one (yet). Am I good, though, or what? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 18:05, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

And, talking about the cattain, was he the guy on the pirate ship who told them where to stow the kitty? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 18:08, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

No, that was the ship's pusser! Groan, soz… I'll have to take your word about the plans being of "our girl"– not that I doubt you, yes you're very good, it's just that I can't make out e.g. "1760"; they'd bloomin' better have a higher res image! Still no word from Mr Boshoff, btw. Nortonius (talk) 18:36, 3 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. I just saw your hugz'n'wolfy-kisses! [looks askance at floor, toes of one foot over the other, hands held behind his back] Thank you! Really chuffed, that's very nice for me to know, and it's one of the nicest things I've been involved with on WP too…

Ship's pusser – how purrfect! If you look here, you'll see it's the same plans. The 1760 date was on the file details here. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 18:42, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Aha! A good thing someone was paying attention! :o) Mind you, something I did look for was a "basket" to buy the thing– fortunately I didn't see one of those either, yet, though I've been known to hang exactly this kind of thing on the wall. I just really want to scratch an itch and see the details in that plan… Oh Mr Boshoff…! Nortonius (talk) 23:25, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

I want the plan at A2 size! And in the highest-possible resolution! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:55, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

MMMMeeeee tooooooo! Btw, I was about to start fiddling with the Meermin again, but I wonder what you think of this: earlier, there were few Dutch/VOC terms like "Constapelskamer" in the article, and it seemed reasonable to include them, with an explanatory word or two; but now we've got quite a few, and I'm getting a sense that this brings a new degree of ?unavoidable wordiness. This might be a problem if it goes up for FA...? I thought that perhaps these VOC terms could be relegated to footnotes, with only straightforward English in the article, and wikilinks where appropriate; but that would be sort of shifting the problem to the footnotes, rather than fixing it. How about a single explanatory footnote for all VOC terms when we first encounter e.g. "supercargo", or anything striking that might come earlier, in a form something like

n. ^ The sources use 18th century Dutch "Commies" for "supercargo".^ref Other such terms are "Constapelskamer" for "gunroom";^ref "Scheepsmonkeynuts" for "ship's peanuts";^ref etc.

— Hmm?

Then the footnote could be named something like "|name=VOCterms". Any good? Or should I just concentrate on the monkey nuts? Nortonius (talk) 10:49, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a great idea; go for it! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 11:20, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Cool, ta! Though, I didn't actually say the obvious thing about naming the footnote (duh), which is that I'm thinking of inserting it wherever we might otherwise have had a Dutch/VOC term, so we get the same footnote used multiple times...? I expect you got that, but I just wanted to be clear! ;op Nortonius (talk) 11:34, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, of course :o) Pesky (talk …stalk!) 11:37, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Meermin part 6

As I said to someone else who asked for help with an article on my talk page, I think it's crucial to get the lead right. I find it to be a bit fragmentary, especially at the beginning, so my question to you is are you happy for me to rewrite or would you prefer me simply to make suggestions as to how you could rewrite? Malleus Fatuorum 23:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

(>**)> megahugzies – you're a darling! Please do rewrite the lead as you see fit! Join in with us to your heart's content here, it's fun :D Pesky (talk …stalk!) 06:25, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

ROFL; that nice little bit about the Dutch name for the small ship's boat ...schuit ... that's pronounced "shite". I wonder if it was because they were absolute shites to get moving, or something ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 15:14, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Heheh! Yes, I rather enjoyed getting that in there! ;op And, yes to any input by Malleus, obv! All knowledgeable, constructive input welcome, indeed! Nortonius (talk) 15:21, 5 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. Any thoughts on Lemurbaby's comments and my responses on the article's talk page? Nortonius (talk) 15:25, 5 February 2012 (UTC) p.p.s. I think both mentions of "Nepthunus/Neptunus" in the article probably do refer to the same ship– but, sources…? Hmm!

I shall go ship-hunting ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 16:00, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, this is interesting. The VOCsite has the only Neptunus of the relevant period as this one, and there is no Nepthunus listed there at all. So if there was one and only one Nept(h)unus in service around the Cape, then it's clearly the same ship. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 16:18, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I think that's that then, "Krause was working for the VOC in 1760, and the VOC ship Neptunus that he was on then came to assist the VOC ship Meermin in 1766"– I agree, but are we happy that's not too great a leap to make without a RS saying exactly that…? Just putting the question, personally I'd want to go ahead and bung it in, per the VOCsite. Nortonius (talk) 16:56, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

As there are no other alternatives for a VOC employee to be working on at that time, then I think that has to be OK, per the VOC site. They seem to be pretty good on their ship details. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 17:02, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Then, in it goes! Would you like the honour, or shall I? Nortonius (talk) 17:21, 6 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. Good idea to point article talk page readers here, sure you don't mind? We can always carry this on there…?

You may have the honours of putting that in! (And don't say I never give you anything ... ;P ) I've dropped a note on the article talk page that there's a load here; actually I'm far more comfortable on my own talk, where I don't have to remember to be "more encyclopaedically formal" and can have a giggle from time to time. They may join us over here, if they wish. But I'll keep an eye on the "proper place", as well. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 17:59, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Your 'umble servant, ma'am…! ;op Yep, good plan, a giggle now and then is very welcome– I meant, "Good idea wot you already had to point article talk page readers here", soz if wot I wrote sounded like a suggestion for something you'd already done! Nortonius (talk) 18:07, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Bear with me, I'm three-parts asleep! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 18:56, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm bearing… bear hugz? ;op I know the feeling... Nortonius (talk) 19:03, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

A humble request

Hello,

I saw your impressive ship photo retouching work on display on my friend Kiefer Wolfowitz's talk page. If this interests you, I would appreciate your help. At Norman Clyde, there is a photo I took of a museum exhibit on his life. In the upper left hand corner is his Francis P. Farquhar Mountaineering Award . It is at an angle and has glass reflections and other problems. Is there enough data there to reconstruct a usable image to illustrate the article about the award? I tried but my skills aren't up to the task. Thanks if you can help and perfectly OK if you can't. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 21:53, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I'll have a look and see what I can do for you. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 22:12, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

I've done what cleanup I can there; the reflections interfering with the snowshoes can't really be done any better, but I;ve got rid of the most obtrusive ones. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 23:08, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks so much for your prompt efforts. Do you have the capability to take the off angle view of the award in my photo and transform it into a face on view? Would it be of adequate resolution and sharpness to illustrate the article? If not, I will try to go back to the museum and try to sweet talk a curator into opening the glass doors to let me take a better photo. It is a long way from where I live but in a beautiful area I love. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:53, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

No, sorry - that one's just not possible! You'll have to go and take the better photo, for that one, I'm afraid! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 08:12, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

The Realm Under the Sheds

The borderlines and boundaries have been set out; the Accords have been written. Now it's just up to the inhabitants to ratify them ... Pesky (talk …stalk!) 14:05, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, good grief.  Chzz  ►  18:49, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

thum

If they can dig through the soil now, they've hired a JCB ... "is this a digger I see before me, its back hoe rake toward mine hand?" Pesky (talk …stalk!) 19:01, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Little buggers! At least the tell-tale dinky footprints in the snow this morning make it easy to track exactly which bit of the borders they're violating! If they don't get the hint soon, I shall consider recruiting a new border-guard at Checkpoint Charlie! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:58, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Job offered

Wanted: TPS.

Zero pay, no opportunity for progression. Likely to elicit abuse. Very little chance of gratitude.

Apply through demonstration, on User talk:Chzz - which is, frankly, rather \o/ right now.  Chzz  ►  18:47, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Your page is ... daunting ... rather you than me! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 19:00, 3 February 2012 (UTC)

Attention, please, stalkers!

Your input (whatever it is) would be much appreciated over here. Ta! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 09:39, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

The Meermin slave mutiny

Nice article, impressive. Please keep up the good work. --John (talk) 18:03, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you :o) I noticed your improvements to it; again, thanks! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 18:05, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Are you still after this? I have the pdf, which I can send if required. All very hush-hush, of course, and I assume your wikipedia email's enabled. Nefarious good wishes, Haploidavey (talk) 22:37, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

That would be really cool! (Yes, email is enabled) We've had access to some of the 2007 work, but to have the whole thing would be great. The real gem will be the 2003 BA Thesis, if you can get hold of that one, too ... ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 23:41, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

Hello, ThatPeskyCommoner. Please check your email; you've got mail!
It may take a few minutes from the time the email is sent for it to show up in your inbox. You can at any time by removing the {{You've got mail}} or {{ygm}} template.

Haploidavey (talk) 00:04, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

I've been right through the entire article now, made a few changes, and left a few queries on its talk page. Looks like you might have some useful stuff yet to add, so ping me when you're thinking about going for FAC and I'll take a final look through – assuming I'm still here of course. I don't see any reason why you shouldn't be able to get this to FA, but no matter how well prepared you think you are FAC always demands at least some additional work to fix stuff you never even noticed needed fixing. But FWIW I think it's a nice article, and a sad story that's well told. Malleus Fatuorum 01:00, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

A sign that you need some sleep!

It's calling you!

Sorry, my beta-test ended a while back. ;)

The Helpful One 18:19, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

Heh! That one's empty, though! ;P Pesky (talk …stalk!) 18:23, 4 February 2012 (UTC)

IRC

Would you care to come on IRC to discuss about the ongoing discussion? (Heh :P) I want to figure out your exact concerns and see what you think about some of my own, and I think talking directly would be more effective than exchanges of longer messages on-wiki. Thanks. (Don't worry about it if you're deliberately not going on IRC due to medical or other issues.) wctaiwan (talk) 07:08, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

I've been "off" IRC most of the time recently as we've been going through a high-intensity phase with mother-caring, and real-time conversations can be suddenly cut off at a moment's notice, at which point I could be away for an hour or more. But if others can make allowances for that, then I could log in there again. Poor mother, having had a nasty infection, has been revisiting something in her history which has been making her very scared, and other than babies being mutilated and killed by bombs, we're not sure quite what it is, and therefore how to reassure her over it. Nothing seems to be getting through as yet, and sometimes she will suddenly start really distraught hysterical screaming, and she can clearly "see" these horrible things actually "happening", in her own real-time experience. Terrible, terrible stuff for her. Our GP is going to try to find out from the experts what kind of sedatives we can safely use when she has one of these awful experiences; it's heartbreaking having to just cuddle her, and stroke her back and her hair, and keep trying to get her to "see" that it's just like a dream, and it's not going to kill her, or her various descendants. She's fighting to "rescue the babies", and she can't even sit up. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 07:21, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Really sorry to hear about what your mother is going through. :/ I hope everything works out best as it can both for you and her. Best wishes, wctaiwan (talk) 11:50, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

just curious...

and you can tell me to mind my own business - but who or what is JLAN? — Ched :  ?  15:27, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

JustLettersAndNumbers. Two sides to the coin, as with so many of us poor sinners! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 15:41, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Ahhh .. I thank you my dear lady. I really hate getting caught with my pants down (although it seems to happen all too often), and just wondered about some of the references I'd seen lately. First time I've ever noticed him/her/them around - but then again, I don't edit the horse area either. Anyway, cheers and best - (and the omnipresent "hugs" :)). — Ched :  ?  15:53, 5 February 2012 (UTC)

Wot, hugz with pants down? lol! Pesky (talk …stalk!) 17:04, 6 February 2012 (UTC)

JLAN has been my nemesis of sorts, and extremely unkind to me and even more so to User: Dana boomer, who is never uncivil to anyone. I must admit that I finally lost my cool and one day called him a jackass in a couple of places, but then refractored the comment. Basically he was nice to Pesky, (who is hard for ANYONE to hate once you know her! LOL!) but he hates my guts because I dare to disagree with his belief that he is right about everything. I'll grant that he apparently speaks at least four languages and I don't, but though he initially also emailed me a friendly and apologetic message early on, since then, it's just been really, really nasty. He has a bad habit of telling everyone else they are engaging in OR while doing so himself (minor recent example: tagging burro for WikiProject Mexico when burros did not originate in Mexico). He loves to create unneeded content forks, and I also don't particularly care to see my edits referred to as "blithering twaddle," but oh well. Montanabw^(talk) 17:08, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

:D You like me! I can kinda understand where JLAN comes from, because sometimes I have to try very hard not to get too obsessed by the wrong things. Remember That Roan Question? And my bijou rantettes about lab-rat geneticists who have no idea about how animal behaviour influences which gender has the more impact on what turns up in the succeeding generations .... I did an interesting test today. Pesky (talk …stalk!) 19:03, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course I really like you. The reason is because you can be swayed by facts, but keep a common sense head about you when confronted by "experts." And you aren't out to only tear things down, not build anything up. AND you aren't mean to people. You don't call people's edits "blithering twaddle" and such. And you don't hate Americans or women younger than yourself. Montanabw^(talk) 23:59, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

[Pesky blushes]. I like you, too :o) You haz your head well screwed on and your heart in the right place. Pesky (talk…stalk!) 07:08, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I like Pesky too, but not Montanabw... evil and vile horses on their user page. I'm married, so nobody, especially the wife, likes me. I'll go cry for a bit. Bgwhite (talk) 07:17, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

I like you! (>**)> hugz. Pesky (talk…stalk!) 07:34, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

But I'm giving Bg noogies!! LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 20:05, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Talkback

Hello, ThatPeskyCommoner. You have new messages at Elen of the Roads's talk page.
Message added 00:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Cloveapple may have cracked it Elen of the Roads (talk) 00:51, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Pesky, I can't send the 2007 thingy until you've replied to my email! Haploidavey (talk) 08:49, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

@ Haploidavey: I have replied (just). Real Life is doing its usual thing!

@ Elen; the 2007 paper is on its way – do you have any other suggestions for getting hold of the 2003 one? Any contacts at Cape University, or anything? Pesky (talk …stalk!) 11:16, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

OK, check your inbox. And the best of luck with today's stint with Real Life (gotta get me one of those things, one with 100 year guarantee and infinite mileage). Haploidavey (talk) 12:28, 7 February 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Template talk:Expand language

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Sorry, only had the regular Pro Quest stuff

I don't think I have access to the 2003 BA thesis. Cloveapple (talk) 19:54, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Awww. Thanks for looking, anyway. Pesky (talk…stalk!) 20:15, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for popping in to say hello

And I found your user page interesting too. Hello...

I agree very much with what you say on Jimbo's page, starting with your observation that Wikipedia is a sort of honey trap for HFA. I've often suspected that too.

At the risk of stating the obvious, Wikipedia is also likely to attract a disproportionate number of editors who, for one reason or another (related maybe to personality, geography, disability, unemployment, age or whatever) are, whether through necessity or choice, a bit erm... socially isolated. You'd have thought we'd be extra predisposed to be considerate to one another. But that's not always so.

Like you, I'm concerned by the tendency for disturbing aggro or insulting behaviour on certain types of WP discussions, such as RfCs. The causes are likely multifactorial, including the opt-in character of RfCs which encourages strong opinions, as well their almost parliamentary support/oppose format which seems to foster polarization. And of course there's the well known issue of talking via a screen rather than face to face. I think your points about the likely distribution of the Wikipedia community across the autism spectrum may be another relevant factor.

My own hunch is that some good input from social psychologist/s could perhaps help make Wikipedia processes, literally, more friendly.

See you around. Best, MistyMorn (talk) 16:24, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

You've floated an interesting idea Pesky, but I'm afraid it falls down with me; I only scored 16 on your test. Malleus Fatuorum 17:49, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

I failed(?!) the test too: 17… But I certainly do recognise aspects of your idea– I'm just not telling the whole world how, at least not until WP is e.g. "more HFA aware"! ;op Nortonius (talk) 18:00, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

We have all sorts here, but the place really is a honey-trap for HFAs and obsessives. Malleus, I'm surprised! I was guesstimating you'd be over 20 ;P If we can get some really good input from social psychologists as to how to make this kind of team less socially dysfunctional, that's got to help. HFA's can be inordinately irritating to other people, and also inordinately irritated by other people. The interactions are just different; but once find ways of making it work, we're cooking with gas here!

P.S. I'm 35-ish on the test, depending on "when taken"! Pesky (talk) 18:14, 12 February 2012 (UTC)

@Malleus: am I right in thinking you're a teacher, or am I misremembering? If I'm right, have you ever taught Aspies and Auties and HFA's? If you have, then you'll be aware that communication approaches are that bit different (and also aware of the frustration and upsetness and misunderstandings that such people can suffer as a direct result of communication glitches). As you're not "one of us", but an excellent teacher, and are currently being spotlighted as "Teh Evil Malleus", might it help if you just assumed that the people having problems dealing with you could well be somewhere on the autism spectrum (in this environment, more likely to be the case than in real life), and deal with as if they were? Which would mean stripping communication down to completely-impossible-to-misread, and always bearing in mind "this person could be having real trouble understanding me, not through deliberate cussedness or stupidity, just through communication glitches." As in, approach any conflicts from a slightly different paradigm; that could make a huge difference. Pesky (talk) 09:06, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Corollary: if you ever do find yourself having communication trouble with an editor who you suspect may be in the same general area as I am, HFA-wise, if I'm around I'm happy to help out with "interpreting", or whatever. I'm generally pretty patient, and I always try hard to see both sides of any divide. Pesky (talk) 12:04, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Good points here; that guy with the obsession with stallions said right on his web site that he was on the autism spectrum. Only explanation for some of the things I've run across. Now where is that test, again?? Montanabw^(talk) 15:58, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

It's here! Obsessiveness is soooooo useful, if you can focus, steer and direct it. See here for my own thoughts on the thing. It's not an obsessive-compulsive disorder, it's a difference in processing, and can be immensely valuable. When I've put together working teams in the past, some of the most amazing dedication, insight and sheer genius has come from HFAs, OCDers, and bipolars. Never write 'em off, get 'em onside! Pesky (talk) 18:23, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

I scored a 31. Oops! Montanabw^(talk) 02:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

And why am I not surprised?! LOL! Aspie/Autie people often, very often, get on tremendously well with non-human animals. They're just easier to understand and communicate with. They don't say one thing and mean another; they don't have hidden agendas; they neither tell nor believe lies. Pesky (talk) 12:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Know what you mean about animals. Sniff. There must be something wrong with me! ;op Nortonius (talk) 13:34, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

That's a beautiful cat you have on your page. Here's something for you (and all my stalkers). If it doesn't bring tears to the eyes, you've never had a real, unconditionally-loving friend. Pesky (talk) 15:42, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I can't explain here... But I'm sure I'm not alone in that. Here's to the Rainbow Bridge. [sighs] Nortonius (talk) 20:29, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Never occurred to me that the aut spectrum would have anything to do with me. Yeah, critters play pretty fair. Except my new kitten... LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 23:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I was trying to post here but got into a fatal edit conflict because the discussion had already been closed:

Is looking at the 'literal' meaning, alongside other possible unintended interpretations, useful mainly for ASD people? Or might it be of wider benefit, especially within an 'internet forum' environment that is notoriously poor in audiovisual communication cues? With any official 'wiki-term' or 'wiki-expression' I can envisage two main scenarios: 1) That of a newbie or casual contributor who will likely interpret the term at face value—whatever that may mean to that particular user; 2) That of an experienced contributor who will likely search out the exact wikipedic usage of the expression. In both scenarios, there is a clear rationale for avoiding unintended interpretations. For example, concepts such as not making RfCs "more confrontational" may be meaningless (unless you think the RfC should merely be a formality). To see that, it's important to consider the so-called 'literal' meaning.

2c from a passer by, MistyMorn (talk) 11:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Heh! I got caught there, too! Hadn't twigged that we're all supposed to shut up and crawl back into our corners once judgment has been passed, I expect. You might possibly be interested in this, which I've literally just been working on, and which I started over on the now-closed discussion. I think if we can work out ways of making our communications so that all of us in the Aspie/Autie grey areas can understand them easily, then they should be incredibly easy for everyone else to understnad them, too. Making things clearer rarely results in loss of understanding for anyone. Pesky (talk) 12:37, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I love ...

... the smell of real, proper, old-fashioned furniture polish. Turpentine'n'beeswax'n'stuff. The K-series Steinway next to me got a whole heap of lovin' today (as did anything else I could play with, with my new toy ... polish-buffer attachment for power drill :D). It glows; it gleams; it does not look like something "born" in 1897. And my grandmother's housekeepr would never recognise the old kitchen chairs ... [yes, Pesky has been obsessive-compulsively doing housework again] Pesky (talk) 18:39, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

You inspire me to do some work on my 60s vintage spinet Yamaha that I've had since childhood -- got any advice for getting a white ring off the bench?? -- short of refinishing, that is? Montanabw^(talk) 22:35, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Yup, brass polish. Really. Pesky (talk) 19:47, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

What kind? (We have powdery stuff and cream stuff over here -- ) Brand names probably not identical, but give me a notion of what to look for (I use silver polish a lot, familiar with the basic idea)Montanabw^(talk) 02:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The liquidy ones work best. Pesky (talk) 12:59, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Happy Valentine's Day

	Kisses for you
	Happy Valentine's Day Pesky! May this year bring you lots of #WikiLove Bgwhite (talk) 19:22, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

Awwww! [Pesky snuggles Bgwhite] Thank you! Pesky (talk) 19:49, 14 February 2012 (UTC)

JLAN

Hi Pesky. I'm still going over all the JLAN stuff, trying to work out what the best solution would be - mildly difficult because I know so little about horses! I know a little about pigs though, so I've been following the Large Black saga and much of my thought processes are based on that, along with my wiki-knowledge. Now, I see you mention JLAN in relation to OR, UNDUE or POV information to articles. I haven't seen a lot of evidence of him adding any, though I've seen him complain about the POV, especially American POV. Is this the sort of thing you're talking about? The last thing I want to see here is "silencing of the opposition" Worm^TT · (talk) 09:56, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

He's certainly been troublesome (greatly troublesome) in insisting that horses shouldn't (for example) be measured in hands; also in insisting that "the original" breed society for any given breed (in its original country of origin) is the only one whose words should be recognised (in effect); insisting on using the foreign (original) name for horse breeds, as opposed to the English name for them; insisting that breeds which the Italian Government calls "Italian breeds of horse" are therefore Italian (despite, for example, the Haflinger originating in the Tyrol, in Austria); he tends to accuse people using English language sources of being "US centric", despite the fact that, for English Wikipedia, they are definitely to be preferred; and a host of other things. I know one article where he wanted to insert a huge table detailing exactly which grades of crossbreeding produced which grades in the breed registry of the resulting foals (good table, excellent, but far too much weight for the article as a whole), and so on. The editors who've been editing in the same areas with him would be able to give you far more instances, as although I've been watching what's been happening (well, to be honest, because I've seen what's been happening) I've avoided horsey stuff myself for quite a long while now.

One of the other real challenges is that he just often won;t let things go; having done the argument about measurements being in hands, and lost it, he then tried it again in at least one other place (and very possibly more); I think one of them was on an article up for GA or FA. He also started edit-warring on a GA, and then put it up for review saying that it was unstable, when actually the only person making it unstable was really himself. I think he particularly notices articles that are in sensitive places, like GA, FA, TFA, etc., and goes in to work on those ones, without really considering what consensuses have been arrived at in the past about them, and it tends to just derail what has until then been a pretty stable article.

It's a very sad saga, really; I'm not sure how it could be dealt with other than asking him to join one or more other WikiProjects, taking with him the lessons he's (hopefully) learned about how his editing style affects others, and starting with a clean slate and a fresh batch of editors who haven't yet had any problems with him. That may work; on the other hand, it's possible that he may find the same problems elsewhere. I really think that he doesn't know that he comes across as bullying other editors, and heavy-handed. Please ask Dana, Montana, Ealdgyth and others for more specifics; as I say, I'm just off-the-top-of-the-head remembering things I've seen happening, as I've been specifically avoiding stressy areas wherever possible. I hope this info is helpful. Probably going through JLAN's talk page history would give you quite a bit more, from several other editors who've also found him to be heavy-handed. I hope he can find another area within Wikipedia where he'll be happy, and settle well, but I have a nasty feeling that if he stays in WP:EQUINE other editors who have contributed far more, and at extremely high standards, will see no option but to leave Equine, and possibly quit Wikipedia altogether. I wish I could be more hopeful, but I really think he's burned his bridges a bit. Pesky (talk) 14:22, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I've been lurking on this, and what I've found disturbing is how the focus of discussion thus far has switched to an attack on MontanaBW. JLAN can certainly be productive and, I suspect, has much to offer, but his stubbornness and insistence that his position on any issue is THE correct position will always cause him problems.Intothatdarkness (talk) 14:40, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

@Pesky, thanks. That's pretty much what I'd found, I just wanted to see if I had missed anything. I've commented at ANI, with my thoughts and some suggestions. If they don't work, then I guess RfC/U is the only place left. @Intothatdarkness, unfortunately, Montanabw does appear to have been behaving inappropriately, probably because she's reached the end of her tether. I don't see it as an attack on her, just that she is also at fault here. Worm^TT · (talk) 15:05, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

WTT, I wasn't referring to you when I mentioned attacks, because I think your responses have been measured and well-considered. There have been others, though, who don't seem to recognize that the ANI wasn't about her. I know some people consider MBW difficult, and perhaps she should have ignored JLAN. But I'm also a bit of a believer in primary fault, to use a made-up term, and I think that the primary fault here still lies with JLAN. It often seems to come down to a choice between ignoring (and thus possibly condoning or enabling) poor behavior, leaving Wikipedia, or taking action. Could MBW have handled it differently? Quite possibly. Would she have been comfortable with that decision or choice? Possibly not. And therein lies the rub.Intothatdarkness (talk) 15:18, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, I appreciate that. I'm more a believer of "it takes two to tango", and de-escalation of issues. I'm not saying that she had to ignore JLAN or leave WP, but there are other avenues of dispute resolution open to her. RfC/U would be the most obvious answer, or taking it to ANI earlier and phrased her comments in a less confrontational manner. That she took matters into her own hands and acted without assuming good faith is a problem, and JLAN's issues do not excuse (though they may explain) that. In fact, things like this happen so often at ANI that we have an essay, WP:BOOMERANG, to remind you that your own actions will be under scrutiny if you take a case to ANI. Worm^TT · (talk) 15:23, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Montana's tried very hard with him, right from the start, but this has been going on for close-on a year now, and he just hasn't "got the point", anywhere. I'm not surprised she's been losing patience; it would have taken a saint not to. Yes, she can get snitty, but I think, when we've had enough, we can all get snitty. Heck, even I got snitty in December! Thing is, one phrase I do remember from quite early on, when Montana was (I think) telling him something about abiding by policies, and giving him some fresh ideas to work on (though I can't remember the exact circumstances, it was something along the lines of "You have to do X, Y, and Z"), and he responded with a wall of text ending with "Stop giving me orders, I'm not your slave or your dog" (or something very similar). And I think it was when he'd only been editing for a few weeks, too, which is the sort of attitude which is never going to go down well with a very experienced editor who is trying to help a newbie learn the ropes. It's also pretty much impossible to de-escalate with JLAN; he tend to just go on (and on) in the hopes that the other person will give up; if they do, he puts in the edit he wants, no matter how many people have told him why not to, and then gets really savage when he's reverted. I wish he was a happier person; I think I could only count on the fingers of one hand the times I've seen him make a happy post :o( I still want that magic wand! Pesky (talk) 17:38, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Yep. On this one I feel like the kid who got detention for finally punching the bully in the nose after he had been torturing me since the start of school, while the bully cried and cried and told everyone how mean I was. Sure, Jesus wouldn't have punched him in the nose, nor would Buddha. Certainly I should aspire to that level, but let's keep it all in perspective, eh? ;-) Montanabw^(talk) 02:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, sadly, that happens when an editor hasn't had interactions with loads and loads of others; most people on the dramah board don't do any homework and just pass snap, knee-jerk, off-the-cuff judgments on what's immediately apparent or has actually been specifically brought to their attention at the time. And an opponent who cherry-picks through a year's-worth of diffs to find all the ones which highlight on;ly one aspect of the case are always going to cause problems. I think all we can do is just take it as read that the vast majority of the dramah-board regulars are going to be less than thorough before declaiming their own wossnames. Having said that, WTT (in my experience) is both thorough and fair to a level beyond that of many others I've met here, and always means well and tries to do his best. But standing up to a bully is never easy, as sometimes the only language they understand is their own. AN/I is a minefield. Pesky (talk) 14:32, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

No shit. What to do to keep the bullies from winning,anyway? Montanabw^(talk) 23:52, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Insofar as it's possible, educate, educate, educate. Or encourage them to move into another area and let others try and take over the education. We may find that he's learned something from this, and would make a fresh start in a new area and not produce the same behaviour again, despite (possibly) being too proud to say "Mea culpa!" in the one place. Sometimes it's easier to turn over a new leaf in a new area, where you can "prove" that you were never like that, anyway ... With any luck, that may happen, and being nice may become a habit with him, in which case, all good. Otherwise, if he just takes the same behaviour elsewhere, someone from a completely different area may call an RfC/U on him. Actually, I really, really hope that as and when he gets a bit of time and space to sit back and do some deep and hard thinking, he may (internally) accept that he was bullying, even if he never admits it, and he may improve and everyone's lives be happier. That would be the best outcome. I really do feel sorry not only for the people he's bullied, but for him, too. I think it must have been a really painful shock to him when I had to say "Yes, but ..." to him; I'm sure he can;t have been expecting it, and it must have hurt like hell. But it was the only right thing to do. I just wish I could buy him a beer and say , "Yes, but ... you did bad, but it doesn't mean I hate you. It just means I'd like you to be able to do better." I feel bad about hurting him, but the situation had got to the stage where there really was no other way; he wasn't listening to anyone else. Pesky (talk) 05:54, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Bingo!

GabrielF's done it again! Alexander's article in Itinerario, about the Zon mutiny but cited re the Meermin, is available here for a short time only! ;op Nortonius (talk) 16:11, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Whoooo-hooooo! Hey, how do you fancy doing a collaborative article on De Zon's mutiny? And can we dig up some other mutinies to play with? ;P Pesky (talk) 17:41, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

:D Why not eh why not?! That sounds like an excellent idea! I have a sandbox ready and waiting, or would you rather start somewhere else? Up to you! GabrielF was lightning-fast with this source, as well as doing amazing stuff as always… Nortonius (talk) 18:06, 15 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. Beware though, as of today I'm an extraordinary grumbler! :os

It will have to wait a short while; I really must consider doing that painting ... and congrats on getting the grumbles Pesky (talk) 18:12, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Ta! Though, it's taken me nearly four years, and am I worthy of collaboration with a Grand Tutnum such as yourself?! ;op All very silly, but ya gorra laff! You're going to do the painting– OMG, brilliant! :D Ok, I'm kinda thinking about getting Meermin (VOC ship) up to GA– who knows how that'll pan out, but it might grab my attention all of a sudden… Well, if you beat me to it just tell me where; if not, I'll just start trying to assemble stuff in said sandbox…? Hope you're ok today. Nortonius (talk) 18:31, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

the VOC ship version should be a piss-easy GA. Go for it :D Pesky (talk) 18:55, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't possibly condone Pesky's rather fruity language (piss easy indeed), but she's absolutely right about GA for the ship. Assuming no unforeseen developments in the ongoing ArbCom case I may even do the review myself if you nominate it. Malleus Fatuorum 19:06, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh Malleus lol thank you! No worries Pesky though, you're right, it is bounced pretty much straight out of the mutiny article, however much I've tweaked and honed! I know you're busy Malleus– when Senra and I worked Reculver up to GA, we co-ordinated the GAN quite openly, would you like to do the same with this, at some point this evening perhaps, or…? I have a friend coming with BEER in a wee while…! :o) Nortonius (talk) 19:26, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Only if you send me some of your beer. ;-) You and Senra are more than welcome to work on the nomination together, just let me know when it's live and we'll get ready to rumble. Malleus Fatuorum 19:33, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Ok, I'll message Senra now. About the BEER, I'll try pouring some down the intertubes: for tonight's drinking pleasure, we have a choice of Marston's Pedigree, or Shepherd Neame's Bishop's Finger…! Yum. Nortonius (talk) 19:38, 15 February 2012 (UTC) p.s. [paranoia strikes again!] BTW, Senra reviewed Reculver, while I nominated & worked on the raticle [sic] with heaps of help from Senra…

... or if you want Senra to do the review that's fine with me as well. Malleus Fatuorum 20:36, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, I'd be really pleased if you did the review, Malleus, but I'll be happy either way, and the last thing I want to do is put anyone's nose out of joint! Senra hasn't responded yet, but me pal's here and we'll be watching The Shield in a mo– I'll probably be back on WP around midnight, see how we all feel? Mmm, Gale's HSB too now! :o) Nortonius (talk) 21:23, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Hey, I've had my nose broken a few times, so it's rather hard to put it out of joint. I simply misunderstood your initial posting, so you and Senra go for it. I can't see any reason why Senra ought not to do the review. Malleus Fatuorum

Seems as if I may have misunderstood too. I thought I was being asked to collaborate. Factual articles are outside my comfort zone. I should "[f]eel the fear and do it anyway" (Jeffers 1987). I would be happy to review provided Malleus stands by (to keep us both from breaking any version of the civility policy!). As I said on my talk page, RL is busy at the moment. I can start in earnest on Saturday. Would this be OK? --Senra (talk) 22:42, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Aha! Nortonius MC at your service! (Master of Confusion, that is!) Thing is, sorry, I think I confused things along the way: bottom line is, Malleus understood my initial posting correctly. What I was trying failing to say was, "Senra and I co-ordinated the timing of the Reculver GAN quite openly", since Aircorn was going to mentor Senra– this meant that Senra and I had to "set our watches" so that he caught the job of reviewing pretty much as soon as I posted the GAN. So, Malleus, would you still like to review a GAN of Meermin (VOC ship)? I'd be delighted, if I haven't exhausted your patience already! And Senra, I'd be delighted to collaborate with you on fielding Malleus' review! I think the article looks pretty well developed, but it's still pretty short: having seen how effectively you dig up the skinny and wield the knife, Senra, I think it could be about to get bigger and better! So, are we on? Shall we make it Saturday? I kicked the article off after a suggestion by Kablammo, who said they'd be around at the weekend to help out too, so this could be lots of fun…! :o) [Pesky, I think we'll be moving along pretty soon now, thanks for having us, hope you're ok!] Nortonius (talk) 23:54, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Don't feel any need to move on, it's nice having you here! (Remembering Actress and Bishop jokes ... "Thank you for having me!" "My pleasure! Thank you for coming!") Pesky (talk) 19:50, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

lol! Thanks Pesky– didja see that the Meermin's presently on course for the Main Page on Saturday?! Oo-er! I've been trying to get another piccie too, fingers & everything else crossed! :o) Nortonius (talk) 20:08, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, Gawd! Yes, I'll do that picture before then! It may end up being Naif Art Crayon, rather than paint, but at least it will be the Meermin! I was considering doing "rescuing the slaves" bit, with rope, and kiddies being carried to shore, but we'll see how it goes. Pesky (talk) 20:18, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Wooo! Well, don't feel under any pressure– if you have something you're happy with for the article that would be fab, but take as long as you want! Your idea of a "rescue" pic sounds perfect. Fingers crossed that I get this other one that I've asked for too! :o) Nortonius (talk) 22:53, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Pesky! :o) Hope you're ok. Just thought I'd let you know about this discussion, about low tides around Struisbaai! Nortonius (talk) 20:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I took your name in vain

Here. But as soon as I'd posted I realised that I'd got it arse about face in the edit summary. How I sometimes wish we could edit the edit summaries! Malleus Fatuorum 19:01, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

It's funny, but I make less mistakes in edit summaries than I do in the text, despite having access to the Preview button in the text. Maybe it's because I know I can't go back and fix it later! But yes, it would be nice to be able to edit those.

And heh! what did you think of ArbCom's genius idea that nobody's allowed to contribute to a discussion any more unless their contribution directly improves it? [Pesky ROFLMFAO] It's gonna get very, very quiet around here ... unless we all just ignore ArbCom's "reminder". Pesky (talk) 19:49, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

Here's a little test for you; what do you think I think about it? Malleus Fatuorum 20:15, 15 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that if it had been in an article, you would have re-worded it for clarity ;P I still use the ArbCom Secret Ballet as a trigger-into-giggle-mode technique as and when required. Somehow, one can never see Wikipedia quite the same way, having once visualised the ArbCom Ballet Troupe, kitted out in tutus and skin-tight dancewear, tiptoeing gracefully (or not so) across the stage, arms delicately raised above their heads (you know the pose), with the spotlight on them, and the music echoing up in the flies. If I had a head-shot of every Arb (no, not the in the cross-hairs sort!), I could use my Photoshop magic and produce the required image for the entertainment of others ;P [badass granny mode] Pesky (talk) 18:22, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

To answer the (easy) test, MF thinks that Arbitators did not carefully consider their every proposal and wording thereof (although the drafters tried hard enough to present a coherent proposal, in discussion with other arbitrators, hence the delay and the rapid voting). He also thinks they might be pandering to a view from a section of the community that he disagrees with.

Regarding the "directly improves" reminder, now that the issue has been noticed, you (Pesky) need to make it easy for Arbitrators, by suggesting (indirectly or otherwise) a wording that makes sense and still fits the remedy. Something like "Editors... are... reminded not to engage in talk-page conduct that is not directed towards productive and constructive discourse, and the underpinning goal of improving the encyclopedia." With more effort at good writing than my brief sketch, a reasonable expression of the issue can surely be found. Geometry guy 02:50, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

I have suggested an alternative. There are a couple of other things there which I'm not entirely comfortable with (this is all principle-centred "not entirely happy" stuff, not sides-taking stuff). I need to have some more thinks. Pesky (talk) 07:58, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Playground Workshop

Hi! user:That Pesky one, fyi Wikipedia:Civility/Workshop *Not* canvassing, I may post a general notice at teh talk page. NewbyG ( talk) 18:12, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Onoes!

My nearly-23-year-old youngest offspring has just said "I wish I was young again!" Pesky (talk) 18:41, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

LOL! There is a cognitive shift of "oh my god, I'm not a kid any more!" that happens at that age -- I remember a similar mourning process myself. Repeated at 30, 40 and 50... Montanabw^(talk) 02:26, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Greetings

Greetings, user:Pesky <grins>

As at 18:23, 16 February 2012‎ ThatPeskyCommoner (talk | page stands‎ at 374,882 bytes) I generally archive my talk page when it gets to about 30KB I other wise accessibility becomes an issue with slow computer connections. Just sayin, hth NewbyG ( talk) 18:48, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

Hehe! Yes, I may consider telling the archive bot to reduce its timescale, now. Pesky (talk) 19:09, 16 February 2012 (UTC)

A question for you

I was in Asda earlier this evening, and I went through one of their self-service checkouts, which I love. As you may know, your paper change comes out one orifice and your coin change another. I collected my fiver from one orifice but forgot about the other. As I walked away from the checkout the (female) operator shouted to me "Love, have you forgotten your change?" Now, I've seen discussions elsewhere here suggesting that some might be upset by such apparent intimacy, but that's just the way people talk oop north, and I'd have been mortified if she'd been forced to say something like "excuse me sir, but have you forgotten your change?" How on Earth can we begin to define what's civil and what isn't? Malleus Fatuorum 03:19, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

It's so hard. We Wikipedians come from so many and varied backgrounds; even within the UK, as you so succinctly point out here, there are huge differences. And, of course, since each of us is brought up in our own area (both geographical and intellectual / emotional), what we've each been brought up with feels "right" to us. I can understand how the people who've been brought up perceive certain words as "the worst thing ever" really, really believe that that's what they are, and interpret the behaviour of those who've been brought up where that particular word is "no big deal", and something else is "the worst thing ever", as being just ineducated, coarse barbarians, who need to be restrained and educated. Words aren't where it's at, for me. Name-calling, belittling, undermining, demeaning interaction is baaaaad stuff ... and I have to hold you guilty on that one in many cases, but at the same time I can recognise why you do what you do. I understand it; doesn;t mean I whole heartedly approve of it, though. But I can see so much of what you do as being the results of injustice, the results of damage. I've done heaps and heaps of animal-rehab, several species, and I think it helps me to see why things go the way they do. Animals don't have words, but they do have reactions, and they react badly to injustice. It's just wrong. Injustice and inequitable treatment can make people very, very sour; and that comes out. You'd have to be a saint for it not to.

As for the "how", we can try. We can, for example, create, between us, a page of simple "What you really want to say to someone" and "Actually, say this instead, it will cause a lot less hassle!" in a table. People could look up a "better respinse". Of course, then anyone who's been around for a while will learn what the "coded responses" might actually, possibly mean ... but so what? At least they won't always be a translation for the string of expletives one might wish to unleash on someone, and they can carry a presumption of innocence about them. We could give such a page a humour-cloak to wear, and it would amuse some, and still serve a purpose for others. Sometimes I just feel like saying "Oh, ffs, I give up!" when it comes to trying to change wording on policy pages, to make things more absolutely clear; or when I try to put in some small nugget which really should be there (in my own infallible opinion, of course ... ;P) I think one of my biggest ever policy achievements was getting the phrase "People have to be able to check that you didn't just make things up" into the nutshell of WP:V. I never expected it to stick, but it seems to have done so, and it's so abundantly clear that a four-year-old knows what it means. And so does everybody else. Nothing wrong with writing with four-year-old-training clarity, so long as all the rest understand it too. We have a duty to ensure that our policies can be understood by absolutely everybody, not matter what their own little personal glitches are. I don;t think there's a single editor who has no glitches. Shalll I stop waffling now? I am full of morphine this morning, so even more rambly than usual :D Pesky (talk) 09:05, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Not sure how much our watchlists overlap, but there's an editor (young, UK) who is refusing to look at AfD page etc if it has "that swear word" on it... she's objecting to a link to WP:OTHERCRAPEXISTS and will not look at a page with "crap" on it. (IMHO she hasn't the maturity to be editing here on WP among the grownups, and she did seem to claim recently to be not even adolescent yet: a precocious Doctor Who fan.) PamD 10:39, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

It's always possible that she may have personal "issues" with toilet-words; I think the best advice you can give her is just to pretend the word's not there, and replace it in her own mind with something like "rubbish". Some of these very young precocious types are going to end up being the next generation of incredibly-able editors, so if we can nurture them along at all and make the best we can of them, and act as "interpreters" where necessary, it's all to the future good. Maybe suggest to her that she changes the meaning of the word, internally, as if it were a word in a foreign language which doesn't mean quite the same thing as the word does in her own language? I've come across some quite extraordinarily bright youngsters in my time, with whom all one has to do is to get them to "pretend" that something is something different, in order to unlock the door to a whole heap of genius. Worth a try; best of luck! Pesky (talk) 10:46, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

P.S. I'm particularly remembering one who had real problems with dealing with the word "leg" as it applied to humans, but no problem with it as it applied to horses! We just had to be careful to use words like calf, heel, knee, thigh, with her, until she got used to the fact that "leg" wasn't a horror-word. Strange, but true. Never got to the bottom of the why, but it didn't really matter. Pesky (talk) 10:49, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

"Name-calling, belittling, undermining, demeaning interaction is baaaaad stuff ... and I have to hold you guilty on that one in many cases". Can you find even one case where even if true that wasn't a reaction to something equally bad? I've never been one for turning the other cheek, and I never will be. Malleus Fatuorum 22:30, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

I don't have the energy to go diff-hunting, and I'm sure you've never done so totally unprovoked. I do think that on occasions what you've been provoked by may have been simple stupidity rather than deliberate malice, but ideally if you could choosenot to react that way, no matter what the provocation, it would be better. I know that's really not easy, but think how terribly hard it would be for people to try and find something to persecute you with ;P Pesky (talk) 22:45, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Self-service checkouts and civility...they are one of the few things on this planet that can make me swear worse than a sailor who has just started his shore leave only to find all the brothels in town have burnt down. I even kicked one once. ^OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 22:50, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

@ Pesky: perhaps you might be able to understand how pissed off I am with all of the interminable advice I've been offered over the past few months. Malleus Fatuorum 22:55, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

In response to "Can you find even one case where even if true that wasn't a reaction to something equally bad?" I would say no, not really. Maybe some cases where the original slight was perceived rather than intended, but the one thing I've always thought of you is that you're not a bully, if you get me. There's a big difference between being very blunt and belittling someone. The former is tolerable, the latter isn't. That's my opinion, though, and other editors probably don't agree with me on bluntness being tolerable. Every time I try and arrange this civility mess into something coherent in my head, I fail. It's too complicated - people are too complicated. But people have been disagreeing and battling with each other since the beginning of time, why do we magically expect Wikipedia to be different? "Treat it like a workplace" they say. Well, I've seen my fair share of bullying, incivility and name-calling in every workplace I've been in. ^OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 23:14, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Malleus, I'm sorry, yes, I should have taken a bit of time to think that you must be pretty pissed off with it. At least with me, though, you probably know me well enough to know that I always mean well. I'll do my best to remember not to dish out unwanted advice, but I'm fallible, I may forget! If I do forget, remember that I'm not intentionally trying to piss you off! (Ooops, did I just do it again, or was that OK? I genuinely can't tell, with that one.)

Hey, Ooh Bunnies! Long time no see! You're absolutely right, Malleus isn't a bully, nor is he mean. And I've been having to think how best to handle a situation with someone who really is a bully, though they almost certainly can't see it and almost equally certainly don't intend to be bullying. Polite-language bullying is far worse, in my opinion, than blunt-language non-bullying. Workplaces? Yes, you're right there, too. Some of the shittiest, meanest, nastiest behaviour I've ever encountered has been in workplaces. For the people who say "Treat it like a workplace," when they mean "Be really nice and civil", all I can say is that I envy them their workplaces! Pesky (talk) 06:47, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Advice can be a good thing, but when a lot of it seems to boil down to, "Why don't you just stop acting the way you do?" I imagine it's more disheartening than anything else. I think at Wikipedia we should try and find a way to work with our respected editors however blunt they may be, rather than expect a bunch of completely different human beings to act in a certain way because policy apparently demands it. I dunno. I've been in my pyjamas all day. *yawn* ^OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 21:54, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh man, isn't THAT the truth about advice! Well said! Montanabw^(talk) 17:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

"Love, have you forgotten your change?" would be accepted as formal discourse in many parts of the south, where more informal responses might include "Is that yours, my lover?" Geometry guy 00:56, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, "my lover" is not uncommon. And, of course, the omnipresent "midear" once you go a bit westwards. And, @OohBunnies; you know me, all I ever want to do is try and help, it's just that sometimes I trip over my own feet for not noticing that my "help" isn't always wanted! Pesky (talk) 07:09, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Speaking as a person who has also kicked a self-service checkout (really good way to FINALLY get a store clerk to come over and untangle the machine's feedback problem, by the way) and someone who often feels that her "help" is not wanted (even when desperately needed), my real point posting here is a funny story of how one of my earlier exposures to people separated by a common language was having an Aussie exchange student offer to come over to my house by declaring, "I'll knock you up soon." You KNOW what that means in the USA? =:-O Luckily she was female, else I would have been mortally offended rather than completely confused... A few years later, a UK exchange student nearly got himself in a world of hurt with his new Montana buddies by stating to the other guys, "I really need a fag..." Oh dearie me... Montanabw^(talk) 17:33, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

The language thing can cause some real classics, can't it?! Pesky (talk) 17:59, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

"I'll knock you up soon" means the same thing here as as it does in the US, although interestingly there used to be people employed as knocker-uppers, who came round to your bedroom window early in the morning and tapped on it with a long stick to wake you up, so you wouldn't be late for your shift at the local factory. Malleus Fatuorum 18:25, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

In the UK it's also now a reference to getting pregnant? Always? So was this just Aussie slang...? I'd also heard "ring you/ring you up," which was not so confusing as we have no equivalent...? Twain was right (I was 35 years old before I realized a "lorry" was just an ordinary freight-hauling truck, always thought is was something weird) Now, question: Define "Pickup" (In Montana, it's this, not this) Montanabw^(talk) 22:31, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

According to the OED it's had that meaning since 1598. In fact a common slang term for a brothel here is a "knocking shop". Malleus Fatuorum 22:45, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

UK English is littered with multiple meanings for words and phrases. I think that's why we've had as much fun with wordplay as we have, since the days of Chaucer and beyond. Shakespeare could hardly bear to let a page go by without some kind of double-entendre on it. And pickup has both meanings, though in terms of the "pick-up line" it's generally hyphenated, whereas the "pickup truck" generally isn't. Oooh, adding: the UK-delight in multiple meanings, which ties in with both "knocking" and "pickup", is that a vehicle used either for engaging in casual *cough* "encounters" can be called both a knocking wagon and a pick-up truck! And the flashy vehicle used to attract the opposite gender (gleaming red Ferrari, etc.) can also be called a pick-up truck ... Pesky (talk) 09:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Fragile - handle with care!

Stupidly fragile today, please bear with me! I had to get other half to go and fetch morphine dose into the bedroom for me and "feed" it to me this morning, as I couldn't even get out of bed to go and get it. Pain level is now tolerable, but morphine-level increases mental fuzziness, so it's likely that I won't express myself perhaps as clearly as usual, even. Pesky (talk) 10:17, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

(Pats wolfcub) Sorry you felt poorly, Pesky, hope today was a little better. How soon until surgery? You know, chronic stress does come out by attacking our bodies sometimes. I hope that after your surgery clears up the obvious physical stuff that you can get a bit of a break for yourself to heal in spirit as well! Montanabw^(talk) 17:47, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

It's been a bit better; just being able to sleep properly while mother was away helped a bit. I still don;t have a firm date for surgery; in January they said probably early February, but dependent on there being beds available, Ho hum. Now it looks as though it will be March at the earliest. I'm hoping that it's sooner rather than later! [wolfcub wags tail, licks hand]. Pesky (talk) 17:57, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi

Hi. Thanks for your kind message and the link to your excellent essay. You're right: experienced editors, with a track record of producing quality content, should be role models of the sort of behavior that makes Wikipedia a more enjoyable experience and a better functioning workspace. I've been coming to see the value in striving for that, though I'm very much still a work in progress. Hearing from someone as thoughtful and nice as you is a real help, and I appreciate it. Regards, DocKino (talk) 12:03, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

You're welcome. If you ever want to ask for help with anything, if I can give it, then I will (Real-Life Issues permitting, etc.)

Any time you want to join in the quasi-madness here on my talk, please do. We especially like Freudian slips, typos that give a whole new view of things, awful puns, and so on; the only "rule" here is to walk quietly so as not to alarm the shy woodland creatures who watch the human zoo in operation but don't poke their noses above the bracken! Pesky (talk) 12:24, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

[scuttles through the bracken] ;op Nortonius (talk) 13:45, 19 February 2012 (UTC)

Anyone able to help someone out? (bot-interest would be handy)

User:Cyberpower678 is incredibly stressed-out at the moment with dealing with toolserver, bots, and so on. It's not anything I know anything about, but if any of my stalkers would like to wander over to Cyberpower's talk page and see if they can offer any help, moral support, anything at all, or would like to learn anything about bot-working as an apprentice, I really think it would be very much appreciated. I think CP feels very alone at the moment, and a friend or two would make an enormous difference. Pesky (talk) 07:14, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Timeless?

Imagine a pre-tanks battlefield. Imagine the row of cannons, quiet now, with the gunners all lying on the ground, dead. Imagine a solitary man, breeched, booted and spurred, standing in front of the row of cannon, shading his eyes with his hands and looking around. What is he saying?

"My battery's dead, and I can't find my charger." Pesky (talk) 13:46, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

Thank you, I like it! (And took the liberty of fixing tiny typo) PamD 15:23, 20 February 2012 (UTC)

About Meermin (VOC ship)

Hi Pesky, hope you're ok! Malleus has asked if you have an opinion about Talk:Meermin (VOC ship)/GA1: he says that there's still more in the article about the mutiny than about the ship, though I've done a bit to redress that, and wondered if you might like to comment. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 01:08, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

New NPP user

I'm seeing a relatively new user, User:Hghyux, start doing NPP today and doing lots of mistakes. I'm not in a position to spend time helping out and Kudpung is on vacation, so I thought I'd bug you. Could you help out or know somebody to help out. Bgwhite (talk) 02:24, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm not really able to do that at the moment, I don;t think. I haven't touched npp for a while now, and though I'm Ok dropping nuggets of wisdom here and there, real life constraints mean I can't actually get involved in time-sensitive "conversations" where something might need to be responded to quickly. Have you tried Sp33dyphil? He might be able to help out. Pesky (talk) 09:26, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I completely understand. I've got three new editors creating mayhem and I can't/don't want to deal with another. Asking Speedy is a good idea. If they continue, I'll bug him. My favourite is they put a speedy tag on Hostess CupCake. Bgwhite (talk) 09:46, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Of course, what we really need with this (as with so many other little areas of WikiLand) is for some creative genius to produce an interactive video-tutorial-wossname-game to teach people how to do it. And the np-patroller "permission" (and yes, I think there should be one) is awarded only when they've completed the first three levels of the "game", or whatever. If we could recruit a few people who know WikiRules inside out and backwards, who also know how to create video games, we'd have one heck of an educational system! Pesky (talk) 10:06, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Aye, and with this discussion apparently dead in the water, we both know WP has (at least for the time being) lost someone who was stunning at helping out with new pages and new editors; lost through, well, ultimately a rather unimaginative, school-playgroundy mentality that pervades WP, IMHO.... :o( Nortonius (talk) 10:13, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

I'm mulling over how to move that discussion forwards; the problem is, as always, actually getting people to understand the parallels here. I'm not sure how best to keep that moving in a good direction, but I will try, at some point soon. Stupid little spats like this destroy far more than they ever protect. Pesky (talk) 10:19, 21 February 2012 (UTC)

Pesky, in order to push the discussion towards some reasonable conclusion, I think that Chzz needs to be involved. Without their involvement, I really can't see a proper compromise that is acceptable to all parties being produced. Though I suppose that this is a Catch-22 style situation of "Chzz won't return until the issues is resolved, but the issue won't be resolved until Chzz returns". --Mrmatiko (talk) 09:11, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I didn't know Chzz had left. That is a sad day. I wouldn't be here if it wasn't for his help. Long time editor Kumioko also recently left (Long story, partly his fault). I'm speechless on what to say. Another new editor tried doing NPP today. Lets just say the highlight was putting a speedy tag on a footballer who played in the World Cup. Oi vay. Bgwhite (talk) 09:29, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Mrmatiko, I don't want to presume too much about how Chzz is feeling, in case I've got it completely wrong ... but if it were me, I would be feeling as though I've been told that if I'm nice, I'll be allowed to come back as the lowest of the low, doing unpaid and undervalued work, often carrying several people's share of the work at any one time, to the best of my ability, and only if I can show "proper deference" to overlords that I feel have belittled, humiliated, and totally misunderstood me. And I might be given a sweetie if I don't complain too much. I can't think why anyone would want to drop themselves into servility, having tried to make a point of some kind about cabalism-or-whatever, under the same people and system that they wanted to improve in the first place. I can't think what to compare it to, really. If you're not there, people can't go on and on rubbing your already-sore nose in it, I suppose. But then I'm riddled with pain and morphine, and a bit "down"; all Real Life stuff interfering with my abilities to think and communicate clearly. Pesky (talk) 09:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

[hugz Pesky] I think there's a striking parallel with how things have gone with Malleus lately, but at least Malleus was involved in the decision-making process, however drawn out and arduous it was. Chzz hasn't had that opportunity, and I agree with your assessment of feelings, though we can't know; I also agree with the thoughts on Catch-22 above. On the other hand, I think Chzz would express the problem as one more of principle than feelings: he doesn't want to be involved with a project which he sees as flawed in the ways that he's concerned about, just as Malleus understandably didn't give two hoots about what ArbCom thought, but was prepared to go along with the process. As I understand it, while Chzz has real concerns about the project, he has effectively been denied that process: the open discussion at Wikipedia talk:IRC/wikipedia-en-help doesn't qualify as "process", even when it's called an RfC. So yes, why would Chzz want to be involved any more? Maybe through some process…? The absence of that seems to be key to the whole thing…? Nortonius (talk) 12:13, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that is they key to it. When the only route of appeal is to the same people whose actions you want to appeal against, and that group of people is so small, it can seem as though there is no honourable way out other than just ... out. Imagine if Malleus's only route of appeal and input was to approach the same small handful of admins who have caused him the most angst. Not even twelve "good men and true", let alone a broader arena. No other input, no community input, no way back apart from grovelling with tail-between-the-legs and "being given gracious permission to be servile and put up with it" humiliation. "Of course you can come back as a serf." Pesky (talk) 12:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. So, what to do? Frankly I know next to 0 about these things. There must be a way… Nortonius (talk) 12:57, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I think maybe he'd have to feel that he's wanted back, not just "permitted" to come back. Pesky (talk) 13:07, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Yes, maybe a petition or something?! It's not like there aren't plenty of people who might sign, if they knew of it. It wouldn't change the situation, though, (which I think is) that Chzz feels he can't be involved with WP when he doesn't feel he can honestly point newbies etc. to en-help "on principle". I know only too well how being too principled can mess up people's lives (oh boy), but I think we're agreed that there's a genuine problem here, which needs fixing…? That is strictly a separate issue (I think we all agree on that too? I just wanted to say it explicitly here), but it's what's keeping Chzz away, and until it's fixed…? Thing is, Chzz has been coming up against this problem repeatedly for years (so he says, and I believe him), so it's systemic rather than symptomatic (oo-er posh prose! ;o) ). So, while helping Chzz feel wanted is obviously a Good Thing, I think an actual process is needed…? I haven't a clue where the perceived issue of en-help might go from there, but I've heard that certain influential individuals are inclined to see the same issue that Chzz sees… Nortonius (talk) 13:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Principles are painful things. Sometimes I envy people who just sell out. But, for me at least, betraying my own principles would, long-term, cost me so much more than sticking to them. Never simple, now. And that's the third time I've used that link within about ten minutes! It sums up so much, so well. Pesky (talk) 13:42, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Aye, in my experience principles and wisdom do not always overlap. As Frank Zappa said…

Information is not Knowledge

Knowledge is not Wisdom
Wisdom is not Truth
Truth is not Beauty
Beauty is not Love
Love is not Music
Music is THE BEST

Wisdom is the domain of the Wiz, which is extinct.

Beauty is a French phonetic corruption of a short, cloth, neck ornament, currently in resurgence.

— Frank Zappa, Joe's Garage, Act III

Nortonius (talk) 13:52, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

(ec) To me it's not a shades of grey or principles issue. It's the "good people can legitimately disagree" thing—people with equally good intentions can have different opinions and priorities on the same issue. It's just as sticky, but hopefully not as depressing.

I think it's probably more productive to work on other things for now—or at least, stop going back and forth on the same points. It seems so senseless that people are growing frustrated through argument (all while trying to be nice because they all respect one another), despite knowing that they probably can't convince the other side. (Great song, by the way. :P Though I'm probably still largely in the "then" stage, heh.) wctaiwan (talk) 14:04, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

Aye to that– though, I think "principles" are germane to Chzz's absence from WP. Must be time I had more tea! ;o) Nortonius (talk) 16:24, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

The PumpkinSky/Rlevse situation I have been involved in has many of these elements as well -- it feels like a kangaroo court around here at the moment. Or a Greek Chorus. Or the sheep in Orwell's Animal Farm bleating out rational discourse whenever it goes against a particular faction. Montanabw^(talk) 19:12, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

My own feelings on the place at the moment are pretty well summed-up by the header on this page. Pesky (talk) 19:44, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

I just wish I could have that magic wand and make everything right. It would be soooo useful! Pesky (talk) 07:17, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Yep, but if you have one and whip it out, in the current climate, it might get you accused of witchcraft! LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 04:02, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Suggested pre-emptive strike spell of "tolerance to all forms of benevolent witchcraft" would be in order, then? Pesky (talk) 09:36, 24 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh...

Btw ... just saw the "hugs" post .. "gampa" is always up for grannie hugs. :-) ... — Ched :  ?  22:35, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

(>**)><(**<) Pesky (talk) 22:37, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

mmmm-hmmmm .. you betcha. :-) ... OH .. just saw the surgery thing too ... You have my very best wishes, thoughts and prayers with that. All the best, — Ched :  ?  22:39, 22 February 2012 (UTC)

[Sigh]. I can't wait – though obviously I have to! It would be just so nice not to have tinlges, pins and needles, numbness, achy stuff, burning stuff, cattle-proddy electric shock stuff, and stupid loss of strength and co-ordination in that left arm, which sometimes seems to want just to hang like a lead weight instead of functioning as a limb. And the thinning and weakness and judderiness in the left latissimus dorsi, which makes half my back seem about as useful as a piece of rubber, when I'm tired. It's a bit weird; when I shut my eyes, I can't really tell where most of my left arm even is, in relation to the rest of me! Pesky (talk) 07:21, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Pesky, Hi Ched - well we all need hugs, everyone, and especially to wish well with medical situations, best wishes from me.

Pesky, thanks for dropping by talk:NewbyG. I think, my communication skills, thus my editing, might be improved upon were I to have a little talk with someone of your disposition and insight. You seem always to be wanting to be helpful. But not right now, I am not up to talk-paging, I am going to lay low for a bit and lick my wounds. No brooding though. We will talk, only if it suits you. You could email me if you like, that is rather high -tech stuff for someone of my vintage, but I can read them at leisure, whilst a talk page at the moment seems like being on the Main Street naked. Oh, heck. Bye for now thanks for the kind thoughts. Best wishes with the medical situation, hope it doesn't get too much to put up with. I will wish Ched all the best here too! (My heart op= was in Feb 2008, I am still kicking and still, apparently, causing trouble!) Best NewbyG ( talk) 07:34, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

NewbyG, loadsa Hugz to you. My talk page is somewhat of a sanctuary for an assortment of varied woodland creatures; you're welcome here, and my "rule" is that nobody is allowed to scare the wildlife. It's a kind of Mandatory Truce Zone in here; that's how I like it to be. You may email me if you wish; though I often forget to look at my emails for days on end. I understand about licking wounds, and stuff like that; and my stalkers are generally a sympathetic and helpful lot. A lot of us have the occasional odd kick in our gallop, and many of us are in the Vintage category, too,, with which often comes just a tad more tolerance, patience and insight. Best wishes to you; remember to take good care of yourself, eat properly, drink enough, sleep enough, get plenty of fresh air, and fix any temporary problems! Pesky (talk) 07:47, 23 February 2012 (UTC)

understanding through conflict

Re comment on NYB page. I once worked with a new to the group woman on a tech project where we had separate but overlapping responsibilities. We were both strong willed and particular about how things when done, but always wanted to be seen as professional. Things slowly built up for about a week until we lost it and just started screaming at each other -- at which point we came to the realization I didn't care about her pet peeve things and she didn't care about my pet peeve things so we could (and did) work quite well together. But -- and this is the important part in the context of Wikipedia -- this only achievable after a relationship has been established. Too often wikifolks forget that point and get too informal too quickly, and that just leads to trouble.

PS: updated your link ;) Nobody Ent 19:19, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

That's actually a fairly well-known phenomenon in group dynamics (otherwise I wouldn't know about it). See Group development#Tuckman.27s Stages model. You need to go through forming (everyone is polite--too polite--to each other because they're avoiding conflict and trying to figure out the internal dynamics), storming (conflict as the purpose and hierarchy of the group gets worked out) and norming (where the "rules of engagement" are agreed upon) before you can get to performing. Choess (talk) 00:06, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

So that's why I never fit into a group! I hate conflict ... so the "storming" stage is enough, usually, to make me just quietly walk away! Seriously, though, when I've done group-creation / task-force creation stuff myself, I tend to have some hard-and-fast rules in place before work starts, to make goals clear and let people know that all prior emotional baggage has to be left at the door before work starts. Doesn't make it perfect, but it does help. Pesky (talk) 06:26, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Re Too often wikifolks forget that point and get too informal too quickly, and that just leads to trouble. Yes, another communication issue common to many internet forum environments where participants know they're unlikely to have to engage in real-world relations? Meaning that conflict kicks in straight off before any meaningful working relationship has had time and space to develop. —MistyMorn (talk) 10:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I like to try and take some time to get to understand people I'm likely to encounter often, or to be working alongside. I think there are two ways of being informal; one is the slanging match, no-holds-barred thing; the other is becoming friendly with people and being allowed some informal banter and ice-breaking. I don't see anything wrong with the "friendly-informal" thing happening quickly; the dog which approaches you with ears politely flattened, waggy tail, and doggie smile will only meet with a gross rebuff from dog-haters, whereas the dog which stands looking at you in an uncommitted way deserves some caution in your first interactions with him. If he's uncommitted, he might decide to bite. If our first approach to people is to be committed to friendliness wherever possible (and obviously not in the cases of responding to outright attacks either on ourselves or on the 'pedia), then less friction is more likely to be the result. IMHO. So, informality is OK provided that it's friendly informality.

As a side issue, I'm often somewhat surprised by the apparent number of people who don't understand the distinction between an argument and a blazing row ;P Pesky (talk) 13:12, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Nicely argued, point/s taken, Pesky. I'm just curious about the different ways in which our forum/comment environment can affect or distort communication. The environmental dimension seems to me of relevance to the well-being of Wikipedia and its working community. —MistyMorn (talk) 14:18, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

I think that there's a human tendency in many situations online to assume bad faith, and one has to be maybe overtly friendly to avoid this. A good range of emoticons might help us! I'm sure people get much snappier online than they do in Real Life; after all, if you get snappy with the wrong person in Real Life you could end up on the floor, or with a fist or a broken bottle in your face ... the prospect of actual physical personal risk is a great deterrent to Real-Life gross incivility. Online, people "push the boundaries" more than they'd dare if they were face to face with someone. As far as managing the community goes, we're a pretty big community, these days. We probably have more WikiCountrymen than there were in the whole of (for example) Roman Britain, or pre-conquest America. As with any community, the majority will be good people, with good intentions. But, again as with any community, some will be power-freaks, some will be bullies, some will be downright nasty. If it's possible just to avoid those when you come across them, that's the best thing to do. But ... sometimes you're in the position where you ought to help protect other people from them; that can get tricky. But, with all our various foibles and failings, I think the most important thing for Wikipedians to remember is that other editors are people, too. Editors have feelings. I think sometimes we forget that, and just see words on a screen, without considering mitigating circumstances. And it's funny how there seems to be an expectation for "other editors" to be perfect, all the time. Pesky (talk) 16:29, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Completely uncalled for remark by Malleus Fatuorum

This remark by Malleus is utterly reprehensible. How can he do this to you? I thought you were his best mate. Bgwhite (talk) 09:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

[gasps] I can't believe that Malleus might be the Brown Bottle!? :o0 lol Surely not. No, that's my best mate! Nortonius (talk) 10:00, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Having been comprehensively and consistently undermined behind my back by my "alleged-best-mate" at school (possibly explaining why, for a long time, my "best mate" was, in fact, my "only mate"), I try to avoid best-mate-ishness. I don't like "people", but can get attached to individual "persons". Several of them. Even when some of them can't stand each other. Anyone who considers themselves a mate of mine is allowed to be "enemies of my friend", and so on. And anyone bearing free beer is likely to be the best mate of all and sundry so long as the funds permit ;P And I'm rambling, again ... Pesky (talk) 10:45, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Someone said FREE BEER?! :op Nortonius (talk) 12:35, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm, I think Pesky is Cidergirl, the Brown Bottle's sidekick. I'm a joker. I saw an opening to make a funny remark on Malleus', um, personality. I understand where you come from Pesky. While I don't have autism, I am physically disabled and it resulted in some very embarrassing moments while growing up. This meant I really never had a best mate and I avoid making friendships in real life. As Anne Shirley would say, I feel we are kindred spirits. Which is why I love reading your writings as they give me insight and calm me down about wiki issues. Bgwhite (talk) 20:40, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Awwww, hugz! One doesn't have to read Lord of the Flies to realise that school-age children can be the most cruel, savage little brutes on the planet. I'm glad you get some goodness out of my quasi-philosophical ramblings! Pesky (talk) 07:21, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

I took your talk page's name in vain...

Thought I'd better let you know– it might've been a bit rash of me, sticking my head up above the bracken like that, but...! Hope you're ok...? Nortonius (talk) 10:11, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

That's an insightful and solution-focussed post, therefore you get my congratulations for it. Human beings, as a gross generalisation, tend to be either problem-blind, or problem-focussed, and the proportion who are solution-focussed (and I'm talking about real win-win solutions here, not "bury your dead, another one will surely come along some time" solutions) is dishearteningly small. History shows us that some of our real geniuses can be (occasionally) very hard for other folks consistently to get along with. But driving your talent into self-imposed exile because it disagreed mightily with you about something is a sad loss of talent. Sometimes things that are so clear to some of us are completely invisible to others, and I mean literally invisible in that they "just can't see that there's a problem". Problems should be solved, not brushed under the carpet. And it's always, always worth remembering that for every editor who sticks their neck out and says "Yes, but; yes, but" there are probably dozens more who don't have the courage to stick their necks out, and just retreat into their corners. I suspect the little hidden quiet corners of the 'pedia are full of the slightly-injured, who just don't want to engage with anybody, any more. And I also suspect that the numbers of editors who have just quietly walked away from the project altogether, without any dramatic goodbyes or anything else, because of conflict and disenchantment, is very high. Sometimes (often?) people just move on to something else, but as a community we need to look at ways of making our good ones, no matter how outspoken on matters of principle, feel more inclined to stay, feel welcome, and feel wanted. People quietly doing vast amounts of good work are very seldom noticed, and end up feeling undervalued. And I don't think barnstars are the answer.

All our editors are real, live people; they have real, live feelings, and they can get damaged by us. We just don;t see the extent of the damage, because by the time it's got that far, they've gone. Pesky (talk) 10:59, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. I think your assessment of "problems with WP" is good. Nortonius (talk) 12:22, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

Yep Pesky, you nailed it! Montanabw^(talk) 19:14, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

Please remember to list at WP:CP

When tagging a page with {{copyvio}} please remember to also list it at WP:CP as described in the instructions in the template. The copyvio at The Evil One (film) has only jsut be dealt with as those that deal with copyvios at WP:CP were unaware of it. A bot would normally automatically list anything that was not listed but this was down for several months and it's best it is not relied upon. Dpmuk (talk) 04:40, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Oh, Jeeze! I'm sorry! When I was doing npp I patrolled something over 3000 pages in three months; speedsied over 100 G12's, and tagged'n'flagged quite a few others. I'm sure there's probably more than one which slipped through the net on reporting (sometimes I get interrupted by Real Life stuff in the middle of working, and miss out on a step). Mea culpa, mea culpa, mea maxima culpa! [Pesky slaps own wrists] Pesky (talk) 07:18, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Hi Pesky

I think the Skeptic will be fine, he's just a bright example of why wikipedia policy sucks so much. I think I read somewhere that Good faith is not policy, it's just some essay garbage. Result of the lack of policy in that area equates to inevitable lack of wikipedia.

It's also lovely to see how well ANI actually works, where people accuse him of poetry on his userpage. I think it's a valid point, we should all be on the lookout for poetry on userpages. Be vigilant !

Anyhow, I have a read about the HFA stuff, it's interesting. Personally I have a very very different ability for perspectives and a shortcoming. It's an interesting topic you have going. Penyulap _talk 10:31, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Calling all poetry vigilantes! Ahem! Pesky (talk) 10:34, 27 February 2012 (UTC)

Will doggerel limericks do?? Montanabw^(talk) 19:13, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

There once was a chappie called Hayden

Who took to the fields with a maiden;

Got stung by a nettle

While proving his mettle –

'S a damned silly place to get laid in!

[A Pesky original] Pesky (talk) 21:23, 28 February 2012 (UTC)

I love it :) I'm not too bad at poetry, quality like that would take me all day (at least) I'm afraid. I do wish I had more time for writing. I wish I had more time. I wish I had more time. I wish I had more time, sigh, I don't. I take back my projection about S.o.L. being OK on wiki, he won't, in fact I project he won't be back, (it's a healthy probability). S.o.L. is the second person I have bludgeoned into total silence in the space of a week. The other one I wack-a-moled with agreement, or if my critics can't accept that was the cause, then I choose my natural charm, or at least I prefer to think of it that way, instead of dragon breath or spidersense, because it allows me to assemble sentences like "people are left speechless by my natural charm". I'm afraid that S.o.L. has been silenced, into shyness, by my 'natural charm'. sigh. Should I wish for less charm ? Penyulap _talk 06:26, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

He/she may come back; though he/she did express a preference for using one of the other named accounts; Perhaps I should revisit the AN/I archive and find that account's talk page, and cross-post to there just in case he hasn't logged back in to the other one. I he/she is young; I also think that, with the right mentoring, he/she could end up being very good. If they're in the age range I suspect (from their own posts), then it's a horrible age to be, even for the most level-headed of us; riddled with insecurities and low self-esteem. I only have to consider myself at that age to get a handle on the possible feelings involved, particularly if this editor is subject to Real Life bullying. Maybe some Wiki-Parent-Substitutes could help to turn things around here. I think it's worth a try, anyway. Pesky (talk) 08:20, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Check if the blocks have been lifted, I asked for them to be lifted, and he can't use his other accounts if he arrives to find that they are still blocked. Penyulap _talk 10:23, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Funny Things, horses!

Hi Pesky, it feels like it's been a while! :o) While I don't want to poke fun at anyone in particular (I live in a glass house! ;op ), I wondered if you might like to consider these [1] [2] for your selection of "Funny Things"! ;o) While I'm here, you may have noticed that I've been fiddling with History of the horse in Britain lately (while I think about avoid thinking about nominating either Meermin slave mutiny or Reculver as an FAC). I hope the horse article's improving, though like everything on WP I ain't finished yet! Hope you're ok. :o) Nortonius (talk) 14:08, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Hiya! Nice work with the horses :D I'm still hoping to dig up a heap of stuff (eventually) on the history of farriery and history of saddle and harness-making in Britain, to fill in the gaps in the history of the horse here, and possibly also as stand-alone articles (in which case I might be able to notch up another couple of GA's, not that I go in for points-collecting awards or anything, just for fun). Tracking down good sources (and enough of them) to get as thorough a history of these two aspects as I can (ideally getting back into early history) has so far proved to be too daunting a task for me to spend time on. Y'know, procrastination and all that ... never do today what you can put off 'til next month ... heh! I am still busy visualising the Meermin painting; once it's "set", I'll be able to get it onto paper quite quickly, but I have to really see it first, or (from past experience) it will all go wrong. And, me being me, I want to make absolutely sure that the perspective on the ship, viewed from an artistic oblique angle, and with a portward-sloping deck, will be really accurate in representing her dimensions. Hmmm. OCD rules OK. And I'm still trying to "see" where the chopped-off mast is; the current had been setting inshore – maybe they cannibalised it for the fire they built on the shore to warm and feed everyone? Pesky (talk) 16:36, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

The farrier and horse shoe articles need some serious work; I avoided doing much with them solo, as periodically the "barefooters" come in and get all flaky. But if you want to do the heavy lifting, I'll take point on any crap that flows. Teamwork is always a good thing; strength in numbers and all that! Montanabw^(talk) 17:15, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

[Pesky looks innocently around, peers at ceiling, whistles nonchalantly ...] Ummm. I'm a kinda barefooter, actually! But I am quite able to restrain my tendencies in articles (finally!) I really ought to dig up some ancient-history stuff from somewhere; maybe the Worshipful Company of Farriers, or something. I wonder if Hereford College has any ancient archives on the history of farriery in Britain? Real Life is leaving me with not a great deal of spare time or energy, but I will certainly keep thinking about it, as a kind of foundational requirement for actually doing anything constructive. :o) Pesky (talk) 17:24, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

lol! Soz about Real Life, tho. [hugz] Glad you like stuff I've done with History of the h. in B.; hope Montanabw likes it too (e.g. linking! ;o) ). Yes I can see that mast burning wonderfully on the beach– I wonder if it might've been tarred or summat for preservation, like railway sleepers; dunno 'bout that, but it could be interesting fire-wise… It might've been too much work to cut that up and burn it though, or maybe not, what with all those carpenters and resourceful burghers around! Nortonius (talk) 17:41, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

All mine are barefoot at the moment too, and are more often than not (I put shoes on one in 2004 for something, I forget why now...) but there is a POV bunch out there who maintain that shoes are NEVER necessary, that horseshoe nails "poison" the horse's blood, and a bunch of other really extreme stuff. Here's an expose on the stuff that I fret about. As long as that crowd stays out of it, I'm happy. Montanabw^(talk) 18:56, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

hmmm, Strasser ... There are plenty of others nothing like so extreme. But, as with anything else in this kind of area, there are always going to be the extremists at both ends (horses always / never need to be shod), and getting caught up in the crossfire is never going to be good. I'm never sure whether the horsey area collects more than its fair share of extremists. Consider, for example, Stallion ... ;P Pesky (talk) 19:07, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

A few years back I was at a judge's training program (which convinced me that it was NOT worth it to get a national card...) and one evening several of us were sitting around swapping war stories (most of us had judged locally and faced our share of divas and upset mommies) when one person said, "you know, is it just me or are most horse people completely crazy?" Present company excluded, of course... ! But I can't see how the horses are to blame. Except that they, for some unfathomable reason, put up with us -- name one other herbivore that does (some people keep rabbits, true, but rabbits don't seem to care if we like them or not...) Montanabw^(talk) 22:30, 29 February 2012 (UTC)

Two others: goats and pet cows! Both can form really powerful emotional bonds with their people :o) Actually, doing my usual maybe-overly-analytical thing, I suspect that any herd animal might do the same, because of that social bonding / herd heirarchy thing. Pesky (talk) 07:34, 1 March 2012 (UTC)

It IS true that goats are underrated! And oxen do a lot of work in the world. But I stoutly maintain that only horses are nuts enough to actually act like they LIKE us! Montanabw^(talk) 00:12, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Pesky, how's things? I thought I'd drop by to say I think I've broadly done what I can with History of the horse in Britain, but for sorting out some of the refs, which I think needs doing, and any irresistible tweaks I might spot! Main thing is, I noticed that the section "19th and 20th centuries" currently ends with World War I, and I think filling that gap is a job for someone else– not necessarily you obv, I just mean not me! :o) About refs, one in particular is bothering me: I'm not sure we can use this, it doesn't look like a RS to me, unless anyone knows any better?(nvm, hopefully I've sorted that one now!) There may be others, that's just one I've stopped at for now. Hope you're ok! Nortonius (talk) 19:59, 6 March 2012 (UTC) p.s. Those refs & citations are proving tricky, I'm having to go through them with a fine toothcomb (lol), pretty much one-by-one– also I mentioned a need for more info on British horses in 19th & 20th centuries, add to that horses in Wales & Scotland (esp. Roman & early medieval times), the article feels very Anglo-centric at times; and I've left a few hidden messages saying "ref please!" Just keeping you up to date, fiddling with those refs is keeping me from getting too bored, hope you're feeling a bit better today.

I have quite a lot of work I want to put into that article, including things which you've picked up on. The refs I'd really like to have are the actual Tudor acts-relating-to-horses. I want the original wording, but have had trouble finding it anywhere! I'm sure we can dig up more for the more recent history, as you've pointed out. I thought there was some later stuff ... but I'm probably wrong! I know the Breed Societies stuff is post-war (much of it because of WWI/WWII, with so many animals being drafted for service that some breeds ended up on the point of extinction). Pesky (talk) 12:48, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

For Acts of the Westminster parliament you want Statutes of the Realm, I've had a quick look and have only found them online from Edward VI to James I (1548–1625) here and Charles I to William III (1628–1701) here; so e.g. Henry VIII not covered, but Elizabeth is! The huge (literally) volumes of Statutes of the Realm are a slog to read, but those volumes are all searchable online, except dammit vol.4 part 2, where Google's online PDF seems to be broken– unless that's a temporary glitch. Statutes at Large might also help, but I've not used them before. Then, there's this, a "fully-searchable database of all Acts of Parliament, covering England, Scotland and Wales from medieval times [1235] to the present day": it looks perfect, but it's subscription only, and ominously I can't see any mention of how much! It's aimed at the law industry, so probably ain't cheap, although they offer a free 7-day trial! HTH. :o) Nortonius (talk) 14:50, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I'll probably poke Ironholds and see if he can get something, if I can;t find the ones I want. Pesky (talk) 16:44, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Mediation Cabal: Request for participation

Dear ThatPeskyCommoner: Hello. This is just to let you know that you've been mentioned in the following request at the Mediation Cabal, which is a Wikipedia dispute resolution initiative that resolves disputes by informal mediation.

The request can be found at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/27 February 2012/Wikipedia:Verifiability.

Just so you know, it is entirely your choice whether or not you participate. If you wish to do so, and we'll see what we can do about getting this sorted out. At MedCab we aim to help all involved parties reach a solution and hope you will join in this effort.

If you have any questions relating to this or any other issue needing mediation, you can ask on the case talk page, the MedCab talk page, or you can ask the mediator, Mr. Stradivarius, at their talk page. MedcabBot (talk) 14:12, 1 March 2012 (UTC)  Done

New Page Triage engagement strategy released

Hey guys!

I'm dropping you a note because you filled out the New Page Patrol survey, and indicated you'd be interested in being contacted about follow-up work. This is to notify you that we've finally released both the initial documentation about the project and also the engagement strategy, which sets out how we plan to work with the community on this. Please give both a read, and leave any comments or suggestions you have on the talkpage, on my talkpage, or in my inbox - okeyeswikimedia.org.

It's awesome to finally get to start work on this! :). Okeyes (WMF) (talk) 02:47, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Flemish roile...?

Hi Pesky, any idea what type of horse that is/was, mentioned in 1577 here? Ancestor of Shire horses maybe? Also "Scottish nags"? Galloway ponies maybe? Apparently an archaic meaning of nag is "a horse suitable for riding as opposed to a draft animal"– well, I didn't know that, anyway! ;op Nortonius (talk) 13:10, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

A draught horse of Flemish breed

"ROIL: Chaucer writes the verb to roll, reile, and according to Junius(?) roile; and the application of the noun by Udal and Gascoigne seems to be, to – lazy, unwieldy, rolling corpulence – or it may be a corruption of rigol." A new dictionary of the English language Charles Richardson, pub. Pickering, 1839

But sure the horse which tyreth like a roile

And lothes the griefs of his forgalded sides,
Is better much than is the hairbrainde colte
Which headlong runnes and for no bridle bydes

But hunts for sinne in every hit and holte." George Gascoigne

And, apparently, the Flemish roile was good at going through mud. So … a draught-type horse of phlegmatic disposition. As the dates when this word was in use seem to be way pre-breed-registry, it's almost certainly just a "type" rather than any recognised breed. Pesky (talk) 17:05, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Ooh ta– hmm, "Scottish nag=riding horse from north o' the border" becomes "nag=knackered old horse", and "Flemish roile=draught horse from Flanders" becomes "roile=inferior or spiritless horse". A pattern there...? Arrr, them forrin 'oarsis bain't wurth topp'nce to th'oarsis uv gud oalld Inglund! Good source there, hadn't come across that one before! :o) Nortonius (talk) 18:14, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. The etiology of modern "breeds" as we know them is VERY tricky. So far, I've found at least 5 or 6 breeds who either claim descent from Bucephalus, or claim he was of "their" breed, even though the first written pedigrees were not used (other than local manor stud books of their own horses) until about the 13th century? And they range in phenotype from the Friesian horse to the Akhal teke! In the middle ages, types of horses were very much intended for the form-to-function stuff; and you can't look at ANY of the draught breeds without taking into consideration when the horse collar was invented -- which had a revolutionary impact on farming, as it was the first time technology allowed the horse to actually use its full strength when pulling. Dramatic changes in the amount of acreage that could be put to the plow, as horses could move much faster than oxen. But I digress...you may also want to glance at the well-researched Horses in the Middle Ages for additional info. Montanabw^(talk) 20:03, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, thanks Montanabw– I have had a look at Horses in the Middle Ages; and, I'm trying not to mess up things I know little about, e.g. types or breeds of horses. Actually, I get the feeling that I want to avoid stirring any pots regarding horses, and stick to areas where I'm likely to be as useful, or possibly more so, as most people, e.g. my edits regarding horses in the Anglo-Saxon period. I'll try to keep working on the History of the horse in Britain article, though– other, unrelated distractions permitting, that is! Any input or corrections welcome, obv! :o) Nortonius (talk) 12:20, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Saying hello

Hello user:Pesky, shall we have a pleasant chat? I have recently returned to Wikipedia after a long break, when I did not own or have regular access to a PC. It is good to be back, it's much the same here but technology has moved on, also the requirements to revert graffiti are less, and more mature articles need work of a more studied character, in finding new refs, and tidying the bare URLs etc. I am slowly getting up to speed, with the help of your valuable links to resources. Now, I know I said I was withdrawing from WP:V, but... We were so close there, I am still going to make an occasional comment. And, since I prefer the English language not to be mutilated, that will put me out of step with the majority (or lowest common denominator) approach. I will maintain decorum, I still intend to withdraw from that page as soon as it is practicable. Cheers NewbyG ( talk) 20:50, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

I think if we treat the V page gently, and collaborate kindly and patiently with each other on the talk page, and are all prepared to give a bit of leeway here and there, we will eventually come up with something good. It's more likely to be a case of little tiny steps, letting them settle, looking for the best in other peoples' ideas, and working as a team as opposed to viewing each other as competitors, wreckers, etc., than it is of doing a massive "fell swoop" and expecting magic as a result. "Softly, softly catchee monkey," and all that. Pesky (talk) 22:16, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Now, how was I to know that I would be receiving another well-aimed granny hugs-and-lecture? Seriously though, if at any time I express an idea that invites consternation, or phrase something in a way that may seem daft, please seek explanation from me, your ear is quite close to an organ (brain) that I wouldest wish not to consternate. What I think, if user:Pesky understands me, then I do good. NewbyG ( talk) 22:35, 3 March 2012 (UTC)

Plenty of good ideas here

Wikipedia:Verifiability/Workshop. Seen this page? NewbyG ( talk) 07:19, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I have seen, but not yet contributed. (As far as I recall, anyway.) Pesky (talk) 07:22, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes. The preferred method of contributing to that page is to submit a polished "wording/draft" at the talk page WT/V and, if it is reasonably well received, port it (or someone else will port it) to the Workshop, thus retaining credibility. Or, work on polishing those drafts already on the Workshop page, or its setting out etc. Cheers NewbyG ( talk) 07:29, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

lonely

Ya know Pesky - if it weren't for that little puddle, I'd love to come pick you (and hubby? idk) up, head down to the pub, and throw a few rounds of darts. :-( ... gets old sittin around the house staring at those same 4 walls for sure. You have a wonderful day girl -- sending gampa hugs your way. :-) (I had missed what the tp edit was at first ... lol) — Ched :  ?  15:26, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

<pets wolfie and tosses a treat> — Ched :  ?  15:27, 4 March 2012 (UTC)

funny thing?

Did you see a user is interested in "dull disclosure" from arbcom?Elen, though meant as a tongue-in-cheek assessment, you are correct in stating that the information being both obvious and onwiki does not count as dull disclosure. Nobody Ent 02:01, 5 March 2012 (UTC)

It's quite a good one, but not up to the standard we've come to know and love from the bestest WikiSlips ;P Pesky (talk) 21:13, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

please refocus

You've done a good thing by encouraging a fellow editor User_talk:90.179.235.249#Hoping_to_be_able_to_help. The post on Jehochmann's page, and the lack of good faith "dreading the consequences, oh dear" implied on Elen's talk page are not good ideas. Yes, we are imperfect and, as a rule across the board, frequently treat IP editors poorly. But continued focus on a block from last month is not an effective strategy to address that. Nobody Ent 12:16, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

(talk page stalker) Gotta agree here with the "not an effective strategy". There's nothing that can be done about that IP unless they decide to come back on their own. These things happen, and they will happen again: consider it an unfortunate friendly fire incident. There's no way to change anything that has already happened, and things weren't handled in a completely unacceptable way. When a referee makes a controversial call in a game/match, no amount of arguing reverses it. Especially after the instant replay is over. Doc talk 12:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I have taken those points on board. My concerns here are:

1. that a wrong was done which could be righted
2. that there's a lesson to be learned to try and ensure that this doesn't happen again

Yes, we all make mistakes; sometimes we'll each act in haste without sufficient background research. The most important thing to learn, from when something goes wrong, is how to avoid repetitions of the exact same thing. If we can't, as a community, accept when a wrong was done, try to right it insofar as that is possible, and resolve not to fall into the same trap again (the "snowball effect" of multiple small wrongs creating one very big wrong, with an editor driven off), then we, as a community, need to change. Pesky (talk) 13:08, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

From what I saw, I rather thought that was the point you were making, rather than flogging one particular dead equine, which is how your comments seem to have been received. In other words, I think your focus is extremely valid, and broader than perceptions thus far have recognised. As for strategy, you have to start somewhere, somehow– I've been finding that a struggle myself, in a not-entirely-unrelated matter...! Nortonius (talk) 13:17, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I hate things like this. Being principle-centred means giving principles priority over personal comfort-zone stuff, though, and since I decided that the only way to have real integrity was to be principle-centred (something like 17+ years ago), doing the comfortable, allegedly-easy thing of turning my back, and pretending that nothing bad happened, and brushing it under the carpet, would ultimately leave me feeling far worse than digging my heels in and saying "No, there's an important principle at stake here." It's bloody uncomfortable, being principle-centred, but I would hate to be veering off into the other area. Pesky (talk) 13:25, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I've been quite far out of my comfort zone for the last week or two, trying to get Jimbo's attention (which I have to an extent), and posting at WP:NPT talk as well as en-help on IRC talk: I find it exhausting, mainly because my comfort zone is quite limited these days, and all those places are way outside it. I could go on, but don't want to side-track you or this thread; point is, you have my support, and I know what you mean! Nortonius (talk) 13:54, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I want a much bigger comfort zone, and / or more resilience and emotional strength! And I'm getting fed up with waiting for this damned neck operation; it keeps getting put back, and put back, and I have so little sensation left in my left hand :o( Pesky (talk) 14:17, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Ah, I'd been wondering about that, damn! That's bad news, really sorry to hear it. Chzz was asking after you, by the way; hope something happens for you pdq! Nortonius (talk) 15:01, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

It's a bummer. Problems at C4, C5 and C6 are affecting the whole of my left arm, hand and shoulder, and the upper and middle sections of my back on the left hand side. Most of the skin over my left shoulder and the outer side of my left upper arm is numb, which is a bit concerning, as that's the dermatome supplied from the nerve root at C4. (Dermatome is the sensory bit). The functional bit of the C4 nerve root is used for breathing, among other things. There's a saying "Cut C4, breathe no more" which surgeons commit to memory ..., and I intensely dislike the fact that I obviously have some marked interference at the C4 nerve root. It's one of those things that one finds oneself pondering in the stilly hours of the night, but unlike the counting of sheep, it's decidedly not a cure for insomnia! Pesky (talk) 16:40, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Eek, that sounds really horrid! Hmm, hugz but hurry-up-thoughts at surgeons! I can imagine the frustration, I know about losing sleep, and I've woken up in the night with both arms dead due to sleeping on them(!), but I don't suppose I really have any idea what it's like for you... Hope they pull their fingers out soon! Nortonius (talk) 19:21, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Pass on a virtual-hug from me, next time you see / speak to him. He might be amused to know that Ankh-Morpork's four main food groups have something in common with discussion on the WT:RFA page. Pesky (talk) 13:59, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Mmmm burnt crunchy bits. Worm^TT · (talk) 14:09, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Pesky, he may have emailed you, and not heard back? Keep in touch; best. 88.104.25.228 (talk) 00:42, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

What a good point; I forget to check my emails! (They're on the other computer ...) I miss Chzz. He has much in common with many of us: passionate about the 'pedia, genius-level talent in some areas (teaching is one of his), some glitches, very misunderstood. Biggest cause of conflict in here, I think, is misunderstanding / misreading the other person. He's also very principle-driven. Pesky (talk) 07:06, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

(comment from talk page lurker) It has been obvious to me from the very beginning that Pesky's focus is much wider than to re-hash one already-resolved incident. How can we come to use prior experiences as an example for future learning and betterment? I do think that the proper venue is perhaps the Village Pump, but in that case, there are so many tiny observations we can make, but in such a swamp of information and purposes, how can each individual concern be met?

Anyway, count me as supportive, therefore involved, and so subject to the criticism of being not an independent voice. Que sera sera; well, my voice does happen to be original, no one else would wish to claim it! NewbyG ( talk) 17:26, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

About that IP user...

Hello Pesky,

I appreciate your letter. In relation to the editor with the Czech IP... Look, I accept the consensus that Czech IP is not the same person as Newbie and Doc...

Is the Czech IP the same person as the other party I named in the SPI, Roger P.? No-one else commented on the question -- the administrator who closed the SPI simply said that the question of Roger was "stale"... In other words, it doesn't matter whether the IP editor is Roger or not.

OK... Whoever the Czech IP person is, do their edits suggest that here is a newcomer to debate about Wikipedia? Or do they suggest that here is a person with strong views about WP, Jews and other topics, and confidence to express those views with some energy? And how do you he or she hasn't edited since? It is the nature of IP numbers that they don't necessarily stay the same, even if there is no attempt to disguise anything.

In short: I would suggest to you that the editor with the Czech IP is a strong willed individual who can probably get by without help or encouragement from me.... Kalidasa 777 (talk) 20:49, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

I have to say I haven't a clue who Roger P is; never come across them before. Was Roger P. based in Czech country? The IP's edits date from 2009, and do all seem to be from the same person (as far as I can tell); that looks to me more like a static IP than a dynamic one, but I'm no expert on that. But, if they've been editing from that address since 2009, then it's obvious why they don't look like a newcomer – it's because they're not one. Regardless of any of that, I feel strongly that they really were put through the wringer there; I almost quit WP altogether in December myself, and I know of others who've quit (and some have been long-standing editors). Anyway, if you don't think there's anything you can do to reduce any damage done, then so be it, that's OK. Cheers, Pesky (talk) 21:10, 7 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, there is a long history of edits there from IP 90.179.235.249. Beginning in 2009 with this one, [3] where they tried to make the WP sandbox redirect to gay... Lots of edits labelled by bots (on the history pages and the list of contribs) as "section blanking", or "references removed", for example this one [4] which got reverted pretty quickly... And what about this one [5] that declares -- not as a quote, but in the voice of Wikipedia -- that Samuel Johnson's English dictionary is "a major cause of illiteracy"... Is this good faith editing, or the behavior of a troll??

Regarding Roger P, if you'd like to know more, please look at the archived SPIs about him at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet_investigations/Roger_Pearse/Archive. Kalidasa 777 (talk) 08:17, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes that is good sleuthing going back through the contributions like that. Finding some bad ones too, we can not be sure who made those old edits, IP addresses are shared over time. I had looked last month at recent activity on that address, and found that there were what appeared to be a pattern of good faith or attempted good faith contributions recently. [6] [7] [8] [9]

But it is so hard to judge in such cases, we ought to give the benefit of the doubt, if we possibly can, I think, and we should certainly not jump to conclusions which do not need to be made, if I make myself clear here. NewbyG ( talk) 15:58, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

• @User:Kalidasa 777, the OP, Just so that this unsupported assertion of anti-semeticism is refuted, as user:Jehochman acknowledged, and also at ANI that was the clear conclusion, check the archives of ANI : and here === The so-called "antisemitic remark" is this: diff. There is nothing antisemitic about that. That seems logical. Thank you. NewbyG ( talk) 16:29, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Newby. I agree it can be hard to work out what is happening. On one point, though, I think you have it wrong... You say that Jehochman acknowledged that IP90etc didn't say anything anti-semitic. If that was true, it would be an interesting change of mind. After all it was Jehochman who blocked IP90 for trying to "engage in nationalistic culture wars" regarding Jews, as well as for attacking other editors.... See Jehochman's comment at [10].

So why did Jehochman change his mind? The answer is that he didn't! IP90's explanation that you've quoted on at here was posted at 23:44, 28 February 2012 (UTC). Jehochman's comment "That seems logical. Thank you." was posted at 15:45, 28 February 2012 (UTC) -- eight hours earlier! Actually, Jehochman's "that seems logical" was not a reply to IP90 at all..... Although certainly it does look like one until you check the time stamps... Perhaps that was exactly the impression IP90 hoped to make, when he put in his comment immediately before Jehochman's "that seems logical"?? Kalidasa 777 (talk) 20:50, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

There may be a perfectly innocent explanation; we're not mind-readers, after all. My brain is still full of morphine, so I shall go and eat, and read, and sleep now. Pesky (talk) 21:03, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Hello Kalibasa, yes that's good, about user:Jehochman, they have perhaps not changed their mind over it completely, but they did observe the ANI section, but it does not matter now, as the block which was applied has long ago expired, we do not need to take more time over this matter. My own conclusion is that clearly consensus at the ANI topic was that the anti-semetic allegation was rather weak, but, as I say, the block expired and no further action has been taken. I rather think user:Jehochman may have revised their opinion somewhat, but not in time to shorten the block, through the revelations at the SPI in fact, but that is my conjecture. As I say, I do not think there is any action that can be taken now, or further investigation, that leads us anywhere. I am satisfied at present, and if I somehow seemed to have misrepresented user:Jehochman's position, I apologise, and am glad that user:Kalidasa 777 was sharp enough to notice the discrepancy in the narrative. Cheers NewbyG ( talk) 21:57, 8 March 2012 (UTC) Anecdote: user:Jehochman and myself go way back, though we rarely cross paths, just occasionally, as is the way on our multitude of pages. often it is a case of Oh how I wish good old so-and-so was here to comment on such and such a matter, but usually they are busy elsewhere or asleep <smileyface>

I second NewbyG's comment about your sharpness in spotting that timing thing. Very observant; I'd totally missed it. Pesky (talk) 07:09, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Hello from them

Hi Pesky. Pesky said this and I got to thinking. You see Pesky, I know that I do tend to go on a bit, about words and stuff, but I think it’s important, in an encyclopedia words are the stuff we’re made off. So, I ask you, these two phrases : (A) If you leave a message on this page then ... (B) If a message is left on this page then ... ; the phrases are not identical are they, and depending on context and personal taste, the effect on each individual reader and readers collectively can actually make a startlingly significant difference, I think, in many areas where we need to write such and similar stuff. (And basically that is in the main the sort of writing necessary for writing guidelines and POLpages, in the main.) If you would care to have any comments, other than the obvious, which is that NewbyG has an obsessive streak concerning words sometimes. Te he NewbyG ( talk) 15:40, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Personally, I find the use of the words "you" and (more importantly) "we" to be very effective, in most places. I share your obsessive streak about words – language is a fascinating thing, constantly evolving, and words end up meaning something almost completely different, often, from how they started life. Consider, for example, the usually-vertical storage device, with a door, in which one would usually store such things as brooms, mops, and so on. Started out life as a horizontal surface (plank, or similar) for the storage of drinking utensils. Cup-board. Pesky (talk) 16:50, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, Pesky, thanks for picking up here; and - now this is a matter of personal taste, I will say that the word "we" is a most valiant ally in writing for wikipediaspace; and for myself then the word "you" is like a garnish and ought to be used as sparingly as possible but to maximum effect. Take for example the second person conditional so beloved of manual-writers eg. If you want to (place an order), then you should (sign on the bottom line). Now that is clear , but utterly dullsville if every sentence in the manual is written exactly alike. Your turn, grins.. NewbyG ( talk) 17:12, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Grrrngghhhh .... brain is on the point of beginning to absorb 20mg of morphine (bad pain day today), so I'd probably better not edit for a while, or I'll be getting even more rambly than usual ... cyaz, as the grandkids would say! Pesky (talk) 17:26, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

That's OK Pesky, you take care. I will leave you with this thought, I love punctuation eg. semi-colons, colons and commas. And full stops in their place. Cheers, NewbyG ( talk) 17:42, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi Pesky, thanks for the user-box. Here is a short draft from my sandbox written with no personal pronouns. I was going to rewrite the same material, as an exercise, using second personal conditional, but then I thought if you wished to, that you could do that very easily. So, if you want to, there is a reward of five virtual jellybeans , how's that sound? Hope you are not feeling too unwell, and the pains are under control, all the best NewbyG ( talk) 08:54, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

This weekend is "respite weekend" (mother is off to the residential home where my elder daughter works, for a long weekend). I have a painting to do (really must get around to that!) to illustrate the Meermin slave mutiny article, and I'm hoping to be able to do some outdoorsy work on the field (and maybe some hoof-trimming on the boys). Pains and glitches permitting, of course. Yesterday was absolutely lousy, as far as pain goes; a sort of 20mg of morphine every six hours jobbie (bar-steward thing!) Not sure what today will be like, but my left arm and shoulder feels like something grafted on from a zombie this morning! 50% functional, at best! I may take a look at that, or not, depending. Pesky (talk) 09:02, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Please, you keep yourself as comfortable as possible, and may the medical crew do their best work for you. Like Prince says on an excellent live DVD I have got; "there's too much sadness in the world, let's not get melancholy". See here.

The absolute pinnacle and sine qua non of sentences, IMHO, are those with only verbs! some examples? Look! Look up! Be miraculous! Love! Shine on! Be bold, but not foolish. (also, if possible, only use nouns of immense integity eg.) Let there be Light! Sela, NewbyG ( talk) 17:40, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Considering this, perhaps this is self-education, or else the mouth of babes type of thing, dunno. Note, there’s a “ zero” count for personal pronouns of any number singular, plural ,first, second, I think. Could you do better Pesky, using second person etc. It is really destined for the en.wiki/editing policy, one would think, if it goes anywhere. NewbyG ( talk) 04:27, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

And as for proper nouns and personal pronouns , a perusal of Naming and necessity#A theory of naming indicates to me how utterly misguided and un-theoretically underpinned are the intuitive notions which are unreflexively applied in most kinds of semi-formal writing, (especially where "writing by committee" is involved), thus resulting in some degree of habitual confusion. NewbyG ( talk) 18:57, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Thank you for the fish. But...

Thank you for the fish. I understand the kindness of the gift, even though it upset the fishy socks. See Darwinbish's response on my page. (Please don't be concerned at her tone; Darwinbish, regrettably, is never polite, and never makes any allowances. She, er, doesn't do that. See her userpage, her talkpage, and her RFA.) Fun and games with socks apart, though (and I hope you take those as lightly as they were intended), I have another concern: I'm not altogether happy about the way you quoted me to Jehochman, here. That was originally a friendly/jocular remark of mine, about a friend; Jehochman is used to my frankness, and so I didn't (and don't) think he'd mind my remark. Quoting me out of context, and widening it into a generality, the way you do, Pesky, is rather different. However good your intentions in that entire post on Jonathan's page, it amounts to reshaping a remark of mine into a weapon against him, and makes me sorry I ever said it. Incidentally, your verb "Jehochmanned" is really pretty nasty. You are talking about a well-intentioned and hard-working user. Got any diffs for that slur, or was it in private conversation? I refuse to believe "Jehochmanned" has "become a recognisable thing", though as it happens I can easily imagine a certain poison pen telling you so. You may need to be a little more critical of your sources when it comes to what is and isn't "recognisable". Bishonen | talk 17:03, 8 March 2012 (UTC).

[Pesky crawls behind sofa with tail between legs, ears very politely dipped and folded, and eyes the rolled up newspaper warily ....] I apologise profusely for upsetting you; that aspect hadn't even occurred to me. I know J is well-intentioned and hardworking. I don't have diffs; although I've heard the term from several people, it was likely to be private (though for all I know it's also somewhere in here). Even when I try to do something good, it so often goes wonky. Pesky (talk) 17:16, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

Watch the Northern Lights tonight!

Apparently tonight is the night for seeing the Northern Lights from more southerly latitudes than is usual; even from the UK. This is because of the coronal mass ejection (solar storm). So, get out there watching, and take some nice pics :o) Pesky (talk) 18:25, 8 March 2012 (UTC)

The Blade of the Northern Lights (talk · contribs) will no doubt wield eir scythe with aplomb. 88.104.25.228 (talk) 00:47, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

We had too much cloud cover :o( Not a thing to be seen. Pesky (talk) 07:11, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I was so tired that I fell asleep reading and forgot to go look. Hear it was pretty good up in Alaska, though. Montanabw^(talk) 05:28, 10 March 2012 (UTC)

Love for Pesky

	Love for Pesky
	I miss seeing you on IRC! Pine(talk) 09:33, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

I will be back over there, some time! I've just had too many things to do / think about, and insufficient time and energy to fit them all in! (>**)> Hugz. Pesky (talk) 09:36, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

Please comment on Wikipedia talk:Revision deletion

Greetings! You have been randomly selected to receive an invitation to participate in the request for comment on Wikipedia talk:Revision deletion. Should you wish to respond to the invitation, your contribution to this discussion will be very much appreciated! If in doubt, please see suggestions for responding. If you do not wish to receive these types of notices, please remove your name from Wikipedia:Feedback request service. — RFC bot (talk) 13:18, 9 March 2012 (UTC) NDon't have the knowledge required for this one. Pesky (talk) 13:41, 9 March 2012 (UTC)

WP:V mediation step two

Hello, and thanks again for taking part in the MedCab mediation about Wikipedia:Verifiability. I noticed that you haven't yet submitted a draft of the lede as I outlined in the instructions for step two, so I am just sending this message as a reminder. The deadline was 10:00 am (UTC) on Sunday, March 11, but as there are still eight drafts left to come in I am extending this by a day, to 10:00 am (UTC) on Monday, March 12. To recap, I would like you to draft your ideal version of the lead to the policy and post it on the mediation page, without any commentary. You can find the full instructions at Wikipedia:Mediation Cabal/Cases/27 February 2012/Wikipedia:Verifiability#Step two. Please let me know if you have any questions, and I would especially appreciate you getting in touch if you may have difficulty meeting the new deadline. Best wishes — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 13:54, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Hello again Pesky, this is to let you know that I am extending the deadline by another day, to 10:00 am (UTC) on Tuesday, March 13. This time, I'm going to go ahead without people who don't submit a draft before the deadline. Don't worry, though - If I progress without you, then it doesn't mean that I'm kicking you out, it just means that you will have to catch up when you are ready to participate again. Also, if you let me know that you will have problems submitting things on time, then I may be able to make concessions for you, so I would be grateful if you could do that rather than just leaving it until the deadline. Thanks — Mr. Stradivarius ^♫ 13:39, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Puppy!

	Woof woof
	Do come back on IRC soon, I miss you. You were like an extra granny, a wild one that gave sex position tips. Everyone needs a granny like that! OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 14:40, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Good for discussion

Hi Pesky, looks like the draft at wt:civ brought forth some discussion, which is good. Getting back to what is supposed to be happening at User:Ched Davis/civility sandbox I suggest we need to put more thought into the style of writing, or styles of writing which are best suited for the composition of Polpages like wp:civ. Have you looked at for instance Help:Wikipedia: The Missing Manual? I have and at this time, not overly impressed with the style of the writing there. Seems a bit dogmatic, a bit sort of advertisy, a bit sort of close and personal without much personality. Maybe I am just hard to please. Lot of good info there, quite comprehensive, so I oughtn't complain, but kinda dissapointingly dullsville, like it came from an advertising agency, rather than real people. You interested in taking a look? Cheers NewbyG ( talk) 12:41, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm absolutely convinced that, in all policy pages, the writing should be as simple, clear, and non-verbose as is humanly possible. Policy pages that read as though some pompous post-grad lecturer with zero charisma has written them are just plain irritating when they should be written in a way that one would describe the policy to (for example) a favourite nephew. Pesky (talk) 17:43, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah well, Pesky, agreed, but you're probably aware that (2) editors currently engaged in discussion here can both be accused of long-windedness and a certain degree of obtuseness on occasion (actually, attending to a different drum as it were may apply) and speaking for myself, charisma isn't that the name of some lady from Spain?

What would help greatly, if 'twere possible, is (1) a razor-sharp deliniation of the key topics, (2) accompanied by exactly-measured amplification, and (3) written in a carefully-modulated and deliberately-employed writing style(s). I can help there, can't I? I can do fix typo with aplomb, Cheers NewbyG ( talk) 18:18, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

You can help, yes. Whenever I'm writing for "the great unknown" (or teaching anyone I've never met before), I have to take great care to start off with whatever language would have been easy for youngsters I used to teach, or for the foreign students here to learn English with whom I associated in my teens. Assume intelligence, but not necessarily brilliant command of high-level language. I was interested in your different drum link - I was expecting it to be to Thoreau, but it wasn't! You and I both need to be careful not to irritate other people when looking at getting on with improving policy pages. Elen and Fluff are good collegiate souls with good hearts and great brains; if I'd been allowed to hand-pick a team for this, coincidentally, they would both have been on my list! Ain't life strange, eh?! Pesky (talk) 19:50, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

Indeed. NewbyG ( talk) 20:07, 12 March 2012 (UTC)

(←) Just noting more worthwhile discussion is occurring at wt:civ where you are getting some good riffs off. Now someone mentioned wp:BEANS, and I was put in mind of this gem of a comment Ahh yes, posting... it here brings it to the attention of maybe a hundred times more people, of whom some don't know what they're doing, and some would be better off not doing what they do! LOL NewbyG ( talk) 02:14, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Yes, I'm agreeably surprised at the level of productive thinking going on over at civ. And that other thing - wow! The temptation to go immediately to the page and see what there was! Someone obviously didn't realise quite how motivational things along the lines of "OMG! Don't look at this!" are! Pesky (talk) 09:29, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

About Andrew Alexander (2003)

Hi Pesky, I wondered if you saw this tip about Alexander's BA thesis? I'd follow it up myself, but I seem to be having a bit of a break at the mo. It occurs to me that, if Alexander's BA thesis isn't properly published (and it'd be unusual if it was, obv), it can't be cited on WP– but it would still be great to have sight of it! Also, Alexander should've cited his sources, so they can be cited– even via the BA thesis I'd have thought, e.g. per WP:SAYWHEREYOUGOTIT…? I've never done that before (i.e. "citation–>unpublished thesis–>RS"), and someone (i.e. not me!) might have something to say about it, but I don't think it'd be unreasonable...? Dunno, really, but anyway fingers crossed that we can get a copy somehow. Hope you're ok. Nortonius (talk) 12:44, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Ooh, thanks! I've been avoiding article work at the mo, as I can't entirely trust that my judgment is 100% sound, and I'm happier with making unholy messes in talk space than in article space ... heh! I think the fact that Alexander's BA thesis is quoted by other RS's, so Alexander himself is considered to be "reliable" (as in expert-on-the-subject) by others of similar distinction. Bearing in mind that his MA (or at least large chunks of it) is available "reliably" at cited by others, I would think that would give sufficient oomph to his standing. I can't imagine any but the most obsessively nit-picking and counter-productive editors would then question Alexander's reliability. (At least, I sincerely hope they wouldn't!) I still haven't done that painting yet ... though it's becoming clearer in my mind, day on day.) Pesky (talk) 13:45, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

ZOMG ... Acting suspiciously? Really? (non-Wiki)

Don't be obsessively clean! ... things could get worse than you think ... it's not just a waste of soap! Pesky (talk) 14:00, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

That gave me a good giggle although it raises the question...how did the police find the man "scrubbing his genitals in the shower" when they were just doing door to door inquiries? ^OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 14:20, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

If you read down further in the article it says that when the police asked if he was home the girlfriend lied and said no - they were suspicious, so searched the apartment and found him... Dana boomer (talk) 14:31, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

…but, why did his partner say he wasn't in? And, what was his "thoroughly obnoxious" behaviour when arrested? How would we behave if our homes were invaded illegally by the police, and we were arrested for something we hadn't done, while washing our "toilet areas"? I'm wondering if my obnoxiousness would be adequately thorough! Questions, quisteons! Nortonius (talk) 14:40, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Yeah, I'm thinking that his obnoxious behaviour was probably because he was naked in the shower and the police had barged in. Imagining the scene, I can just picture him yelling, "Get away, I'm washin' mah balls here!" I assume his partner lied because she knew he was in the middle of an obsessive ball-washing spree and would thus be unresponsive to being questioned or something. That's my guess. ^OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 14:47, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Excellent reasoning, homes! (soz I've been watching more The Shield than reading stuff by Conan Doyle) I hereby promote you to Toilet Invasion Theorist, 1st Class (TIT1ST). Nortonius (talk) 15:00, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Do I get a badge? ^OohBunnies! Leave a message :) 15:14, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Badge duly awarded! Seriously, though, if my other half was busy having a shower, I think it would be perfectly reasonable to say he "wasn't in" (as in the Olde Etiquettey "not at home to visitors"). And if the Police turned up and arrested me on suspicion of washing my bits in the privacy of my own shower, I expect I might well be pretty "obnoxious", too! I wonder what words would be perfectly reasonable to describe the Police themselves ... I'd think that "obnoxious" is probably the mildest epithet one could readily think of! Pesky (talk) 16:01, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Civility

I watch (Ched's page and) your determination towards more civility with pleasure. I started the other end, same direction, perhaps you want to join there. The one who framed Geometry guy's wise statement, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:39, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

The framed words were continued, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 11:37, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

I watch GG's page, too! We have a lot of very good-hearted and clear-thinking people in here. Pesky (talk) 11:40, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Did you follow to read Great Dismal Swamp maroons? If you agree that the author should not remain blocked you could sign here, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 12:19, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Precious

	inspiration of civility
	Thank you for speaking up for civility, decency and fairness, treating editors as living people, --Gerda Arendt (talk) 10:58, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

Awww, thanks! Pesky (talk) 11:25, 14 March 2012 (UTC)

I have a date!

Happy Wolfie!

Wheeeee! I have a date with my favourite neurosurgeon– in just under two weeks' time! I have been waiting far too long for this, already; the damned glitchiness of constant neuropathic pain, loss of sensation when I do need it, compromised motor function over about a sixth of my body, and all that goes with it, has been causing me so many hassles ... it will be just great to have my neck sliced open, pulled around, drilled and re-bored, and generally mangled ;P Pesky (talk) 13:17, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Pesky, that's great news. The manglers, drillers and reborers never promise you anything but I've had two such ops, and each has been of enormous benefit. Haploidavey (talk) 13:30, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Will think of you. Like how you take it in style! - My date was yesterday: only a few hours between my first GA nom and passing, precious! Today is also a good one: the husband of a dear woman I sing with is on the Main page. She, Gisela Schuster, is bound to a wheelchair and has an admirable spirit! Keep it up! --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:40, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Well done! Pesky (talk) 15:10, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Great news indeed Pesky, I'll keep my fingers, knees, eyes etc. crossed for you! :o) Nortonius (talk) 13:43, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

I have had such awesomely good results from almost all of my various surgeries, that I'm (mostly) hopeful about any such procedure. That is, until the Devil's Advocate part of my brain starts saying things like "Ah, but now you need to think about the law of averages, and the percentage of operations which end up with complications," and stuff like that. Brains are funny things. On the whole, I'm pretty chilled about surgery, but there are always those few seconds in the theatre ante-room where you think "OK, maybe this time I won;t wake up, or will wake up and discover something really bad happened." I get over those by joking with the theatre team, on the whole. After all, there's not a lot of point in worrying about it; worrying doesn't actually change anything. I am soooo looking forward to regaining some decent use and sensation. Besides which, my neurosurgeon and I get on like a house on fire. Pesky (talk) 15:08, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Yay! I can cross my toes for you too! (noogies at Nortonius for mentioning eyes! LOL!) If you actually KNOW the surgeon, they are far less likely to think you're in for, say, a hysterectomy or something! Good luck! Montanabw^(talk) 16:36, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

This is my guy :o) He's a warm and caring chap, and great fun. As well as seriously expert. He works here, as well as the place over the road from there! Pesky (talk) 16:45, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

And in the USA we have political factions that claim that UK style health care would mean we'd have people dying in the streets, unable to access "rationed" health care. Haven't seen a real life case of that yet. (The American health care system is simple: If you're working poor, don't get sick) Montanabw^(talk) 00:10, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

The UK health system is rather simple; if you're a UK citizen then you're entitled to free health care. In fact a friend of mine, who was diabetic and working in the US, had to return to the UK after his health insurance ran out when he was made redundant. I would clobber with the biggest bat I could find anyone who thought that the basic idea of the NHS was in any way anything other than a fundamental change on a par with the abolition of slavery. Which it might be worth noting that the Royal Navy played a very big part in. Malleus Fatuorum 00:34, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

In fact anyone found in distress will receive whatever medical treatment they need, regardless of their ability to pay. I really do believe that we've given two great gifts to the world: our empire and our NHS, two great gifts. Malleus Fatuorum 00:45, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I couldn't agree more. Without the NHS, (a) I would be dead, and (b) I would be crippled if I weren't dead. I've almost lost count of the number of surgeries I've had (just to give you guys an idea, this will the the 14th in 3 years), and every single one of them has had a major positive impact on my quality of life / health. If I had been in the US, no insurance company would have given me cover, I don't think. And as for the Empire, if you look around the world today and see just how much is owed to the Empire of the past, you'd have to be singularly unobservant not to appreciate the impact the Brits have had. Phenomenal. I don;t know quite what it is about the Brits, but we are different in some fundamental ways. Whether it's because we're island people, or because we're descended from so many different adventurous / invasive / innovative and downright courageous stock, or a combination of a hundred different things, I have no idea. But we are distinctive. (And, of course, we're the bestest ;P ) The horsey people will know just how much British horse and pony breeds have affected horses around the world. I think only the Arab / Arabian has had more global impact than the British breeds. (And the Iberian breeds are the next in terms of global impact, I think.) And we're a set of comparatively tiny islands. Wow. Just wow. Pesky (talk) 11:08, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Sigh. I hear this sort of talk from Canadians and Aussies as well. I've yet to hear a REAL person who speaks UK English say they'd dump their health care system for the USA model. Yet here in the states, the right wing is screaming that "Obamacare" (a plan that basically says you have to buy health insurance out of pocket unless you're real poor, no one can be denied insurance and maybe there will be some subsidies to help the working class, but not much until 2014) is "socialized medicine" and will destroy the American way of life. Politicians are running on a platform promising to repeal it and let the "free market" have its way (I use preceding terminology deliberately). I am amongst the fortunate to have insurance, but as my spouse and I are both self-employed and over 50 with normal minor stuff for that age range, we are classed as "high risk." (Neither of us have been hospitalized in decades) Not having the benefit of an employer-wide group, we had two options: Paying for a decent policy -- meaning about a $5000 annual deductible for us both that paid about 80% of most everything after that for about $1200-$1500 a month, or what we could afford, which is just under $500 a month for a "catastrophic care" policy with an $11,000+ family deductible that will pay 100% after that. Our perfectly healthy in every way and under 30 adult child has to pay over $200 a month for a similar policy. In other words, the ambulance will pick us up and take us to the hospital, and we won't have to sell our home and declare bankruptcy if someone gets a hot appendix, but we will still wind up maxing out at least one credit card to pay the hospital. And the political right claims that the UK & Canada have people dying because they can't get certain operations the instant they want/need them or even because there are quotas and rationing of "socialized" medicine. Montanabw^(talk) 16:58, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

It's pathetic, really, isn't it? You ought to emigrate – you'd love to live where I do! I think if the US got some honest statisticians (?) to work out a per-capita rate of anxiety, poor access to adequate care, bankruptcy as a result of needing care, and dying for lack of care for the US and the UK, it would be bloody clear who had the better healthcare system. Pesky (talk) 17:04, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

There are criticisms of the the waiting list for non-urgent treatment, but you really can't fault the way that emergency treatment is delivered here. A few years ago I slipped on some ice while going down a flight of steps and broke my arm. I didn't realise at first that it was anything worse than a bit of bruising, as it took a little while for the pain to kick in. It wasn't until about two in the morning it became obvious that there was something serious going on, and I woke my wife up to take me to our local hospital. I'll never forget that drive, every bump in the road was agony! I was given pain killers and X-rayed immediately, and by 9 o'clock I was on the operating table having my arm pinned back together. Malleus Fatuorum 17:28, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Oops! It really is amazing what that first overload of endorphin-release can get us humans through. I hope you immobilised the arm properly before getting into the car! I hate having to wait for non-urgent stuff (this neck thing, f'rinstance). Though the really annoying thing is waiting for the consultant appointment to get onto the list for the non-urgent surgery. I have another op required this year (hopefully!); had the non-consultant appointment, scans, etc. within a reasonable space of time, but the first available consultant-appointment wasn't until four months after the scans – just not enough consultants to go around! Now, if we could ditch a few of the management staff, and increase the number of available medical and surgical staff ... Pesky (talk) 18:16, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Alberta geographically resembles Montana in many ways, I will admit to the occasional temptation. I don't think I could hack the UK, I barely tolerated the cloudy weather of Missoula, Montana in winter when I lived there! I think the Canadians might take us, we aren't vagrants or anything. At least, if we got there before we got sick. And if they'd not kick us out for opposition to the Athabasca oil sands project. Montanabw^(talk) 19:34, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I like the pics I've seen of Alberta. Pesky (talk) 19:47, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

It's a pretty special moment to hear Neil Young perform Four Strong Winds at a concert in Alberta. I pretty much was ready to not go back! LOL! Montanabw^(talk) 19:51, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

That must have been incredible.

'Bout time too, with this op - as of this afternoon, the whole top of my left arm wants to just hang there like a dead thing; I'm currently having to type with my left foot propped up, so that I can prop up my left arm on my leg, just to keep my left hand at keyboard level :o( Tried to turn of a light switch just now, and you would not believe the effort it took to do it. Bloody thing ... Pesky (talk) 23:56, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Hi there Pesky, please accept if you would, now my on-going wishes that your ability to succeed and overcome will sustain through the course of your treatment, and obtain for you from the operation performed by your doctors and carers the most-highly wondrous and gratifying outcome! And whatever your personal belief-system, which I certainly respect, I offer these words of succour, which came to me from a helping source at a time when I was in suffering.

Thank You Father,

For making Your dwelling in hearts broken by hardship and sorrow. Nowhere is Your healing presence so evident as in the place of pain and suffering.

Wishing you the best, always, NewbyG ( talk) 00:39, 17 March 2012 (UTC)

Help please

Hi there Pesky. I am involved in an argument at the Great Dismal Swamp maroons article involving the use of caps for the word "maroons". If you are interested you may see the discussion I opened on the talk page. I come to you because you have been around the Wikipedia block so many times that you may be aware of where I can go for help. I'm often willing to go with the flow, trusting group wisdom, but once and a while I do dig my heals in and this is one of those times. Any suggestions about where I may find Wikipedia-use-of-caps in this particular situation? Thanks, Gandy Gandydancer (talk) 19:14, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I'll take a look. Can't promise miracles, but I'll see if there's anything I can do. Pesky (talk) 19:30, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

IMHO, it isn't even an argument. I suggested Gandy just move it and see who gets pissed. It's already been moved back and forth three times over this and the actual content editors are tired and don't feel like fighting it any more. Montanabw^(talk) 19:53, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Like you need this, I sure don't

I've got a history with this editor and so I think someone with a slower pulse should handle further discussion: Talk:English_saddle#Any_editors_here_ever_hear_of_.22references.22.3F Montanabw^(talk) 19:15, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Just started wikipedian today. Saw this on my way up on my watchlist. I can respond to them from here on out if you would like. Just don't tell my mother. If she knew I was touching the English saddle page she would kill me... Western saddle is the only saddle. Bgwhite (talk) 19:30, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I will protect you! I actually rather like Aussie saddles, but I'm not proud ... @Montana, sure, I'll look in and see if I can help. Pesky (talk) 19:32, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Full disclosure: I think this is payback for the discussion at Talk:Kura (Japanese saddle). Just so's ya knows. And the article would benefit from more references, I just don't want to get into a "delete everything without a source" because it's a long, and mostly accurate (at least as to the USA) article. Montanabw^(talk) 19:51, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

I'm sure that when (hah!) I have some spare time (more hah!) and can get my textbooks back out of the mess storage unit, I will be able to get some citations in there. Pesky (talk) 20:12, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

• Montanabw, it is just as likely that your attempt at renaming the Kura (Japanese saddle) article is payback for me not letting you revert my edits on saddle and stirrup, and for my confronting your ownership issues on the Horses in warfare lead image squabble, and then there was Packsaddle and Pack horse. I can list other equine related articles that are complete failures as far as references and you do not seem to have made any attempt to correct the situation on those articles, take Equine conformation for example, you admitted that this article needed to be fixed a long time ago and as yet nothing has been done about it. But somehow the fate of the world hangs on the name of Kura (Japanese saddle). Since you have no knowledge or interest in Japanese related equine information or articles why the sudden concern? I was using the English saddle article as an example of how "guidelines" can on one hand be so easily ignored and yet those same "guidelines" are suddenly brought up as a (weapon) reason to rename an article that you have no interest in. Im just saying.....

Samuraiantiqueworld (talk) 20:46, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Samuraiantiqueworld, my talk page is a Mandatory Truce Zone; all weapons have to be left outside the door. Please don't bring arguments over here, restrict them to the relevant talk page. We don't deal in accusations of ownership, etc. in here. It's not done. I'd appreciate it if you were to remove your comment over to either the article's talk page, or to MTBW's talk page, if you want to discuss any issue with MTBW. It certainly doesn't belong on my talk page. Having said that, if you feel like taking refuge in the Mandatory Truce Zone at any time, and can just hang out, chill out, and chat, then that's OK, but I don't want squabbles in here. Pesky (talk) 21:13, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Adding: I've taken a look at your talk page, related pages, and several of your contributions in talk pages. It seems to me that you come across as very confrontational and angsty a lot – I notice you've had a few people asking you not to indulge in personal attacks. Would you consider being a little more kind in your approach to other editors? I think you might find you got on better that way. Having said that, I've also looked at your images on Commons - and wow! What a superb collection of pics! That's some amazing stuff there, it would be great if many more other editors could upload such a fantastic collection. I'm sure most of us have never seen anything like some of that :D Brill! Pesky (talk) 22:09, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

To be fair, I don't think Montana should have mentioned, "I think this is payback...". Because of this, I can see why Samuraiantiqueworld issued their above response. Montana broke the Truce Zone too. The first post by Montana was perfect in these scenarios. Neutral and to the point. Bgwhite (talk) 22:13, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Kinda, but not totally. I wondered, which is why I spent so long looking over contribs etc. I think Montana's comment was actually justified, having looked around a bit; also, people who ask for my input generally like to give me a bit of background, which helps me get some perspective. Remembering just how patient and understanding and encouraging Montana was with me, when I was only half-broke-in, I know it takes quite a lot to get her snitty about something. Pesky (talk) 22:23, 16 March 2012 (UTC) Adding: I have quite a few people who are regulars over here, and quite a few who ask for my input. But when someone I've never "met" before then coincidentally turns up on my talk page within the hour, not even to talk to me (or even acknowledge my presence), I add that into the equation when apportioning this stuff. ;P Pesky (talk) 22:57, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Hey, they sold out!

You never knew Tesco sold these, did you?!

... but they'll probably re-stock soon. Pesky (talk) 20:33, 16 March 2012 (UTC)

Pesky, that's effing brilliant. Haploidavey (talk) 00:31, 17 March 2012 (UTC)