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August 24

Pre-decimal British currency denominations abbrev.

They were named after old roman currency at least in the abbreviations. How come? Was there a continuity there or did some fan of Ancient Rome start the practice? Temerarius (talk) 01:31, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Continuity, see £sd.--Wehwalt (talk) 01:39, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

thank you, somehow I’ve never found that page. Although it doesn’t exactly speak for continuity. And it contradicts itself on a matter of pronunciation. Surely it’s happeny rather than hay-penny? Temerarius (talk) 03:36, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've only ever heard hay-penny, but of course that's only anecdotal. › Mortee _talk 04:23, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

[Edit Conflict] As an actual coin they seem to have been (re-?)introduced around 1100, but before then pennies (whatever they were called) were literally cut in half or quarters to provide smaller change, and those halves were, surely, referred to by the same name.

According to the actual History of the halfpenny article it was pronounced "/ˈheɪpəni/ HAY-pə-nee" (I'm not seeing "hay-penny" anywhere). Without resorting to IPA, which I'm not fluent with and you may not be either, the best representation this elderly Brit (who of course used them from around 1960) can suggest is "HAIYP-knee" (with the "H" being dropped in many registers).

The name "penny" (from Old English "peni") is of course Germanic and has close cognates in other Germanic languages. It seems likely that the continuity of the abbreviation (and possibly the actual name) "d" for "denarius", plus of course "L" and "s", would have been preserved by those literate/numerate in Latin, who continued to be a presence in Great Britain after the supposed "departure of the Romans in 410", which was a great deal more complicated and less complete that popularised history suggests. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 2.121.162.183 (talk) 04:49, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The northern pronunciation was often shortened to two syllables /ˈheɪpnɪ/, like HAIYP-knee but with a shorter vowel at the end. Dbfirs 06:04, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's the pronunciation I know too (southern England here) – either two or three syllables, just as you say, but if it's three it's definitely a schwa for the e (hay-puh-nee, not hay-penn-ee). (My earlier comment was only about the first syllable, which is "hay" not "hap") › Mortee _talk 11:50, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Very old joke - a gorilla walks into a shop to buy a newspaper - he puts a pile of change on the counter - the shopkeeper says "that's not enough - you still owe me a penny" - the gorilla says "I haven't got a penny - but I have got two ape knees" (geddit ?) Gandalf61 (talk) 08:38, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The usual spelling of the abbreviated form of halfpenny was ha'penny, as in "If you haven't got a penny, a ha'penny will do". The other contraction used was for a a quantity equal in value to a halfpenny, a halfpenny worth or ha'p'orth. By my day, again from the early 1960's, you couldn't by much for a ha'penny, and it was only used as a jocular insult; "you daft ha'p'orth". I do remember my mother ordering "six penn'orth of chips" in the chip shop, i,e, 6d worth of chips. Alansplodge (talk) 09:08, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I'd forgotten that songs. Thanks for the reminder! › Mortee _talk 11:50, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks to inflation, things are different these days. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:51, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Denarius inflation: 33 AD: ~43,450 seconds of hard labor. 2018: 1.9 seconds of sedentary minimum wage. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 03:31, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pinning down the early use of the "d" abbreviation has proved tricky. Mind the Pennies …: Money and its Use in Early Medieval Europe says: "Monasteries and aristocratic households provided anchors of wealth and demand which stimulated a more broadly based core of monetary exchanges". Both these institutions would have kept their financial records in Latin - "Rentals and accounts from landed estates are rare in English before the beginning of the sixteenth century" according to Languages used in medieval documents. Alansplodge (talk) 12:25, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Manafort pardon

There is much talk in the air about a possible pardon by President Trump for Paul Manafort, who was convicted on Tuesday on eight felony counts. A second trial is scheduled for next month on several additional charges. Suppose Mr. Trump pardoned him, say, tomorrow, for his current crimes. Would he still have to go to trial again and, if convicted, be pardoned again? --Halcatalyst (talk) 14:07, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That would depend on how it's worded. He could try to use the Ford "pre-emptive" pardon of Nixon, who had not been charged with a crime. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:44, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

One important caveat about a pardon: Accepting a pardon is tantamount to a guilty plea. In order to accept a pardon, you have to admit you are guilty of the crime you are being pardoned for. Also, a presidential pardon only applies to criminal penalties for a crime, it does not prevent (and can even exacerbate) civil suits related to the crimes, for example a person who suffered financial damages from Manafort could still sue him for damages, and the pardon itself is evidence that he committed the act which caused the damages. For those reasons, it may not be wise necessarily to accept a pardon before a conviction. In civil cases, the federal government itself can be the plaintiff, so he could still be sued by them. See here, to wit "the president cannot pardon a person for violations of any federal civil laws" --Jayron 32 14:59, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Per Federal pardons in the United States, a pardon will not erase or expunge the record of that conviction. Therefore, even if a person is granted a pardon, they must still disclose their conviction on any form where such information is required, although they may also disclose the fact that they received a pardon. So based on that, even with a pre-emptive pardon Manafort can be tried, he just wouldn't have to serve his sentence. Nothing really in the article about "pre-emptive" pardons though which seems like an oversight. Regards So Why 15:01, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is a bit less clear if one does not take "pardon" strictly. Per the same article, the powers of commutation or amnesty do not necessarily require acceptance or impute guilt. In that article, amnesties, the Ford-Nixon pardon and the turkey are pre-emptive.John Z (talk) 19:05, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In the Nixon matter, he issued as vague a statement of regret on being pardoned for all federal crimes he might have committed while president, as could be negotiated between his lawyers and Ford's. I am sure that Manafort's lawyers could easily draft a statement that would accept a pardon while admitting nothing useful. And I'm dubious any federal court would sustain an indictment against a presidential pardon that is clearly intended to pardon the conduct in question, whether or not imprisonment is at stake.--Wehwalt (talk) 19:17, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The issue in Burdick v. United States was whether Burdick could maintain his privilege against self-incrimination, and therefore refuse to testify, by refusing a pardon. The court said he could. The bit about acceptance of guilt was a bit of a side issue; our article says Legal scholars have questioned whether that portion of Burdick is meaningful or merely dicta.

Since many pardons, at least at the state level, are based on factual innocence (or at least the executive's opinion that factual guilt was not adequately proved), I think it's a bit hard to maintain a consistent view that acceptance of a pardon implies admission of guilt in all cases, even if it suited Ford's conscience to think so. --Trovatore (talk) 19:35, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Rejecting an ambassador

Is there a precedent in history, or any provision in diplomatic law/conventions, of a country rejecting a particular ambassador from a country with which it has otherwise normal diplomatic relations? What happens if the government of Country A says; "We're sorry Country B, we regretfully cannot accept Mr X as your ambassador to us because he (Mr X) is known for having a negative attitude towards our country, please send someone else"? Does such a situation create a huge crisis or is there a mechanism for dealing with the matter without too much fuss? Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 20:55, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See Persona non grata.--William Thweatt ^Talk^Contribs 21:11, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It has happened from time to time. This is why the whole nomination process of ambassadors is kept confidential. Whether to make a fuss or not, depends on the mood of the 2 governments involved. "The appointment of an ambassador is subject to the receiving country accepting the nominated individual, conveyed through an agrément. Under a customary procedure, codified in the Vienna Convention of 1961, the sending state forwards the name and biodata of the ambassador-designate to the receiving state. Usually within several weeks, the latter conveys approval or agrément, after an internal processing that usually includes the formal assent by the head of state. Rejection of a nomination is rare; it may occur if for instance the individual is perceived to have a background that renders him or her exceptionally unfit, from the perspective of the receiving state. This might happen if he is on record with views hostile to that country. Rejections are seldom made public. One US study notes that between 1910 and the late 1970s there have been three cases of failure by US envoys to obtain agrément." ( https://books.google.com/books?id=AEVu5vNbD_4C&pg=PA40 ) Here are some later examples: https://books.google.com/books?id=CiolDwAAQBAJ&pg=PA346 --Soman (talk) 21:16, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Horace Phillips (diplomat) was famously rejected for being Jewish, at a time when the Saudis basically weren't admitting Jews to their country (nor were they admitting blacks, except as hajj pilgrims)... AnonMoos (talk) 02:35, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Other reasons for refusing agrément include the existence of a criminal record, allegations of participation in human rights violations, or simply holding dual nationality. It can also be done just to indicate that there is a serious disagreement between the two countries (i.e. we will not agree to your appointing anyone as ambassador until matter x is resolved). These types of disputes can last for years. --Xuxl (talk) 17:36, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Statistics on European immigration to Algeria

Does anyone know where I can find detailed statistics of European immigration to Algeria? Basically, I am thinking of statistics which show the number of European immigrants into Algeria by either year or decade.

I know that the pied-noir population in Algeria peaked at something like 15% in the early 20th century, but I want to see just how many Europeans immigrated to Algeria at various points in time between 1830 and 1962. Futurist110 (talk) 22:44, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

James McDougall's recent History of Algeria is good on the colonial period; it certainly doesn't have the detailed statistics itself, but if they're available I expect they'd be referenced in his notes. Unfortunately I don't have a copy hand. Henry ^Flower 07:51, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"As of the last census in Algeria, taken on 1 June 1960, there were 1,050,000 non-Muslim civilians (mostly Catholic, but including 130,000 Algerian Jews) in Algeria, 10 percent of the total population". From our Pied-noir article. Alansplodge (talk) 15:43, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

"During the French colonial period (1830–1962), Algeria contained a large European population of 1.6 million who constituted 15.2% of the total population in 1962". From our Europeans in Algeria article.

Alansplodge (talk) 15:45, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

A little more detail at The Making of Contemporary Algeria, 1830-1987 (p. 53) by Mahfoud Bennoune, which says: "The number of European settlers increased from 7,812 in 1833 to 984,031 in 1954". Alansplodge (talk) 15:53, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Cambridge Survey of World Migration (p. 35) gives:- 1841: 38,000, 1847: 110,000, 1856: 170,000, 1872: 260,000, 1882: 412,000, 1900: 630,000, 1936: 950,000. Alansplodge (talk) 16:06, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for all of this information, you guys--especially Alansplodge! Futurist110 (talk) 19:26, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Futurist110, don't ignore immigration of Europeans to the Carthaginian Empire and the Roman client states that followed it. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 13:45, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's a bit too early for my tastes, though! Futurist110 (talk) 02:19, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pictish king

Who was the first Kings of the Picts to convert to Christianity?107.193.163.81 (talk) 22:47, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe Óengus II before 834, see Andrew_the_Apostle#Scotland.
Sleigh (talk) 23:42, 24 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Probably much earlier than that since the indications are that the upper levels of Pictish society were converted from the 5th through to the 7th centuries, but I'm afraid the name of the first Christian Pictish king will never be known with certainty because of the sparseness of historical sources. See Christianisation of Scotland#Picts. See also our article on Bridei I, king of the Picts in the late 6th century, for some suggestion that he may have been a Christian. --Antiquary (talk) 08:17, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

See also Christianity in Medieval Scotland#Early_Christianisation. More detail in The Picts: A History by Tim Clarkson. Alansplodge (talk) 15:03, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Be careful to use only late modern sources; Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Humanities/2009 June 22#Supposed early Scottish kings has a discussion about several Scottish histories of Scotland (most of them early modern period) that rest on highly problematic writings by George Buchanan and Hector Boece. Nyttend (talk) 02:19, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 25

Orders from the CofE on the subject of poor M

In Roy Jenkins' Asquith we read a letter from Lord Rosebery to H. H. Asquith in which Roseberry (then the Prime Minister) tells Asquith (Home Secretary) that he "received orders from the C of E on the subject of poor M on Friday afternoon". Why was Arnold Morley (then the Postmaster General) "poor M", and why was the Church of England writing to the PM about him? DuncanHill (talk) 17:15, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps: "This was Arnold Morley [standing for election in Nottingham in 1895], Liberal, whose involvement in a scandal concerning bribery at the previous election had lost him much support". From Economic and Social Change in a MIdland Town: Victorian Nottingham 1815-1900 (p. 222). The Church of England feel it their duty to advise when misbehaving ministers ought to resign, Cecil Parkinson being the last that I can think of. Alansplodge (talk) 17:30, 25 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe this 1887 article is the "corruption" referred to above. It seems rather small beer. Alansplodge (talk) 11:56, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 26

Publication date of An Essay on the Nature and Immutability of Truth

When was An Essay on the Nature and Immutability of Truth published? Our article says 1771, and this is cited to the article on James Beattie by Patricia Kitcher in the second edition of The Cambridge Dictionary of Philosophy. However, Frederick Copleston states in the fifth volume of his A History of Philosophy that Beattie's work was published in 1770. Which of these dates is correct? FreeKnowledgeCreator (talk) 09:07, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On the title page of the first edition here, you can see the date given as 1770. There were many later editions of course, so maybe Kitcher is referring to one of those (the second was in 1771). Henry ^Flower 10:10, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The edition years don't overlap - the third was 1772, the fifth 1774 and the sixth 1778. 86.131.234.217 (talk) 10:35, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Eleve Consul

What is a "eleve consul" [1]? I know what a Consul (representative) is.KAVEBEAR (talk) 19:00, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Élève is French for student, so élève-consuls could literally be students, like an intern in modern terms. But they might have more definite powers, more like a vice-consul or a deputy consul. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:16, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's correct, Dictionnaire manuel de diplomatie et de droit international public et privé , original edition: 1885. They acted as assistant to a consul under a statute equivalent to internship. --Askedonty (talk) 21:07, 26 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Worth to be noted the author of the source above last is not a frenchman neither the edition is French - French was the lingua franca for diplomacy, and even though the style is a very pure of language the tone of the dictionary gives markedly heavier on protocols than would a comparable French source - of the era. --Askedonty (talk) 15:31, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 27

Weimar republic post-inflationary wages, in currency

Does anyone have a source for the wages in the Weimar Republic after the inflationary crisis? I'm interested in 1929-1933. I've found sources giving them in percentage of adjusted 1918 wages and so on, but I just wanted an idea of what people earned in marks (currency), for context on how expensive quoted prices were. I realize that people earned widely varying amounts; I'm mostly interested in the less-well-off and the unemployed. Apologies is this is obvious and I've somehow missed it. HLHJ (talk) 02:44, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I found this about a general development of actual wages from 1929 onwards, although without any numbers in currency given. The german Wikipedia also has an article on average yearly wages and gives a number of 2.110 Reichsmark in 1929 for example. 85.16.162.137 (talk) 06:03, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you very much! That context improved the article no end. HLHJ (talk) 05:33, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

young aristocrat carrying a cane?

In HPMOR (a Harry Potter fanfic novel), Lucius Malfoy is a powerful political figure who carries a cane with a silver snake (as in Slytherin) handle. That detail didn't seem too odd for a middle-aged British aristocrat-type despite his having no pronounced physical infirmities. Much is also made of his son Draco being the future Lord Malfoy. Later in the novel (spoiler), Lucius gets killed. In the sequel "Significant Digits",[2] Draco Malfoy is now Lord Malfoy and is in his twenties, and carries Lucius's old cane.

Question: is that detail realistic at all, someone in their 20s and in good shape, carrying a fancy cane without looking like a complete git? I mean by comparison to other aristocrats in such a milieu. Presumably to regular people they all look like gits whatever they do. Thanks.

173.228.123.166 (talk) 20:25, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

They were considered a "fashion accessory", rather than a walking stick -- sort of a vestigial sceptre.[3] In fiction, they often signify power and prestige; in those days, they didn't consider somebody with a cane a "cripple" or a "git". Didn't John Steed typically have a cane? 107.15.157.44 (talk) 22:27, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! That's about what I was asking. That link is excellent. I don't remember John Steed having a cane but ok, at least he was old enough that maybe he'd have wanted to lean on it once in a while even if he could walk without it. It just seemed incongruous for a 20-something athlete (Quiddich) to carry one. But in a formal setting I guess it can work. 173.228.123.166 (talk) 22:57, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to Steed, some of us older folk on the left side of the pond recall TV's Bat Masterson. Deor (talk) 14:57, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Also look at swagger stick, for the military equivalent. Baritsu / Bartitsu wouldn't hurt either. Andy Dingley (talk) 23:01, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

P.s.: Steed's cane concealed a sword, ("saber" as he called it) -- as with his "brolly".[4] —107.15.157.44 (talk) 23:13, 27 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

P.P.S. In 1961 (the debut of The Avengers) Patrick McNee was 39 years old, and presumably was playing John Steed as close to that age. The cane was hardly a necessity. - Nunh-huh 14:27, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Google-Image "astaire puttin on the ritz" for a number of visuals. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:08, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

File:Cedric VIllani.jpg

Cédric Villani can do as he likes.

I remember reading two news articles about Benjamin Disraeli giving a speech in parliament. One praised his statesmanlike speech on the Corn laws. The other was utterly outraged by him carrying the wrong sort of cane. And yellow gloves. And his waistcoat was loud or something and I forget what else. The speech hardly got a look-in. Aristocrats of the time lived in a society which had long had a reliable 10% return on investment, so associating yourself with the right people and not offending their tastes became very important. Those less dependent on the goodwill of others are freer to do as they please, which may mean dressing like Cédric Villani, or acting like a git. HLHJ (talk) 05:33, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There are numerous photographs of a young Winston Churchill pre WWI (probably aged in his late 20s or 30s) on his way to (or from) Parliament... he is dressed appropriately for the era (cut-a-way coat, top hat... and jauntily carrying a cane as a fashion accessory. It was a common accessory with upper class formal wear in the late Victorian and Edwardian era. Blueboar (talk) 15:12, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I just looked up "git"; I always thought it meant "an obnoxious and overtly rude person", but Wiktionary disagrees and gives an unfortunate etymology, so apologies.

173.228.123.166, I do not believe that there exists a modern social milieu where one can carry such a cane in everyday life without being regarded as a bit old-fashioned and eccentric, even in the UK. There are also strict legal limits on carrying weapons. After Terry Pratchett was knighted, he was still not allowed to wear a sword, to his amusement and disappointment. HLHJ (talk) 00:59, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That usage of "git" comes up in the Monty Python "argument sketch". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:06, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

HLHJ, I would certainly think that popular hiking trails in rugged mountainous terrain worldwide qualify as a "social milieu". The use of Walking sticks is common on such trails, and countless people use them frequently. I have owned and used several for decades. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 06:07, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I can't believe no-one has mentioned Chris Eubank yet. He commonly carries a cane. Unlike the Malfoys, Eubank is subject to WP:BLP including on project pages, so careful what you say disparagingly about this quote from RS "The former world boxing champion is fine, and as ever dandy, in camel hair frock coat, sharply pointed designer boots and jeans that bear a striking resemblance to the jodhpurs that once accompanied his trademark monocle, cane and lisp." ([5]) --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:14, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 28

An unidentifiable place described as Lensham

While campaigning for the United Kingdom general election, 1906, H. H. Asquith is described by Roy Jenkins as having spoken in the fortnight beginning on December 29th 1905 "at Sheffield, Huddersfield, Stockton-on-Tees, Oakham, Henley-on-Thames, Perth and an unidentifiable place described as Lensham". Can anyone identify Lensham? Thank you, DuncanHill (talk) 14:07, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Might it be Lenham? --Jayron 32 14:19, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lenham seems somewhat of a backwater compared to those other locations, too small to have been worth Asquith's delivering a campaign speech there. I wonder if it could be a misprint (in Jenkins' source) for Lewisham? {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.127.181 (talk) 15:59, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lenham does seem to be a backwater, and Lewisham seems too far south compared to the other places. It also seems an unlikely typo. The source would be Life of Herbert Henry Asquith, Lord Oxford and Asquith by J. A. Spender and Cyril Asquith. DuncanHill (talk) 16:38, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Lewisham is not much further South than Henley on Thames --ColinFine (talk) 17:27, 28 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I cannot imagine that a Westminster MP, or any Londoner writing about one, would not be able to identify and spell "Lewisham". Do we know who his source is? There was a Lensham House, here, in Kentish Town, London, but I have no idea where it's named after. The Camden History Society might well know.

Henley-on-Thames is also a bit of a geographic outlier, especially if that was the order of the speeches! Lenham seems to have been in Maidstone parliamentary borough, which was a tight contest, so maybe he spoke there to reach the outlying voters: Maidstone (UK Parliament constituency)#Elections in the 1900s, see also description in article. Sheffield and Huddersfield also had tight races. Stockton-on-Tees didn't. Of course, which races were perceived as tight at this unidentified but presumably late point in the election might not correlate well with the end vote. HLHJ (talk) 02:14, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I've just had a look through The Times Digital Archive and found accounts of his speaking at Sheffield (4 Jan), Huddersfield (8 Jan), Stockton (9 Jan), Perth (11 Jan), Oakham (15 Jan) and Henley (18 Jan), but nowhere else. I won't swear I haven't missed something, but might this Lensham be a "ghost", introduced into the list God knows how? You'll see that the dates of the known speeches don't really fit the description of them as being delivered in the fortnight beginning on December 29th, so I'm not sure the source is altogether reliable. --Antiquary (talk) 08:48, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

If Jenkins, who researched meticulously, called it "unidentifiable", I'd be surprised if we could do any more than wildly speculate. For all we know, it might have been a surname (a speech in someone's home), a typo, a ghost inclusion or, I dunno, a joke. --Dweller (talk) Become old fashioned! 10:09, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

With regard to my earlier suggestion of a misprint for Lewisham, consider the case of Brian Duppa, sometime Bishop of Winchester. Our article gives a reference (No 4) for stating his his birthplace to be Lewisham, but this work found on Google books prints it as "Lensham."

A few other mentions of "Lensham, Kent" can be found online, often in genealogical materials, where it's impossible to say if they reference an obscure place or are misprints for Lenham (or indeed Lewisham, which was within Kent until 1889).

This work listing parishes in Kent clearly prints "Lensham" in reference to Lenham (which is geographically adjacent to Leeds in Kent as well as following it in the list).

Conversely this work refers to Lewʃham (with the archaic 'long s'), clearly referring to Lewisham, but Google's OCR has read it as "Lensham." {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.127.181 (talk) 11:45, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On p. 1 of 90.208's first link there is a lower case italic "w" in "what" and a lower case italic "n" in "England". The "n" has a hook at top left, the "w" has a hook at top left and top right. Consequently, the word on p. 405 is "Lewsham". There's no link to Google's OCR transcription of this word. In which of Roy Jenkins' many biographies of Asquith does his remark appear? 86.133.58.87 (talk) 13:43, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

It is on page 161 of the 3rd (1986) edition of his Asquith, in the chapter "The Radical Dawn". As I mentioned above, it also appears in Volume 1 of Spender & Asquith's Life of Herbert Henry Asquith, Lord Oxford and Asquith. DuncanHill (talk) 23:14, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 29

Looking for any info on Asian coin found in Queensland, Australia.

Imgur link to coin

A coin my Uncle and Dad found medal detecting in Australia, a bit north of Brisbane by the beach. They found a bunch of WWII stuff there and suspect that there was dirt dumped there from somewhere else by the council, as the soil was not the natural colour. Would love to know what it says, if it has any significance or history. I appreciate any help.

58.179.70.15 (talk) 05:58, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how helpful this is, but the overtly obvious obverse depicts the area encompassing Borneo, Java, Sumatra, Indonesia, Malaysia, etc. Interestingly, there appears to be a Japanese flag at Jakarta. 107.15.157.44 (talk) 08:00, 29 August 2018 (UTC) ... hmmm, this might be relevant: Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies. My guess is that it is more of a medallion rather than a coin. (Coincidental misspelling above: "medal detecting"?) -- P.p.s: you might want to check over at WP:Reference desk/Language for a translation of the reverse; 東 = "east" is the best I can do.[reply]

Haha, yes that's a coincidental error with medal. Thank you for the input, I really appreciate your insights. I'll do as you suggested and post this over on the language reference desk.

Thank you

58.179.70.15 (talk) 09:49, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Someone with a better view than I have might identify the characters as "Greater East Asia" and what appears to be "participate." That suggests Japan's WWII "Greater East Asia Co-Prosperity Sphere," but I can't see it clearly enough to be sure. DOR (HK) (talk) 12:39, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The top, to me, looks like 戰亞東大 "zhan yadong da." It looks like a university medal to me, but I've never heard of a university named zhan yadong. Zhang Yadong - that is something completely different. 216.59.42.36 (talk) 18:51, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This question was also posted to the Language Desk. Please don't multipost. I'm moving the thread from there to here:

Imgur link to coin

A medallion my Uncle and Dad found metal detecting in Australia, a bit north of Brisbane by the beach. They found a bunch of WWII stuff there and suspect that this is also from WWII.

So far we know it's Japanese and that some characters are illegible due to damage but it seems to be a mix of old or new characters or dialects as even a Japanese friend could not translate properly.

I appreciate any help to find out what it says so we can track the history of it.

58.179.70.15 (talk) 09:59, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The map on the obverse appears to be of Indonesia with a Japanese flag on Java, likely Bandung, the Japanese headquarters. Perhaps the Japanese occupation of the Dutch East Indies or Battle of Java (1942) will lead you places. --Jayron 32 11:39, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

On the top is 大東亞戰 (old kanji for 大東亜戦), Greater Asia War. In the center it is みのり會. Cannot speculate what it means. Шурбур (talk) 12:14, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not sure about the leftmost character, but the bottom looks like 參加記念, 'participation commemorative'. Top of the right column: 昭和?七. Is it 昭和十七, the 17th year of Showa (1942)? Top of the left column 爪哇, Java. Шурбур (talk) 08:51, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

(End of content moved from Language Desk) --76.69.47.228 (talk) 20:06, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

みのり會 = みのり会 (Minori-kai, Minorikai). —Stephen (talk) 05:09, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This thread on a coin collecting site I've often found to be useful in identifying items.--Wehwalt (talk) 09:51, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This website may be helpful [6]. 86.133.58.87 (talk) 11:38, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Did any Cuban rebels in the 1890s want Cuba to be annexed by the U.S.?

Did any Cuban rebels in the 1890s (during the Cuban War of Independence) want the United States of America to annex Cuba--either immediately or at some future point in time? Futurist110 (talk) 20:26, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The article you linked answers the question In the section titled "background". --Jayron 32 20:52, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Well, yeah, but I was wondering if anyone here knew of any additional information about this beyond what is written in that Wikipedia article. Futurist110 (talk) 21:10, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

History: early civilizations and polytheism.

Okay my current understanding is this: Native Americans did human-sacrifices, ancient Greeks/Romans did animal sacrifices (for sun god, rain god, etc.). I asked a history professor who specializes in African history, says not much is known about Africa before they were converted to Islam and Christianity, but he thought they leaned towards animal sacrifices.

1.Did any civilizations did both human and animal sacrifices?

2.What did Asians do, human or animal sacrifices?

3.And when Native Americans did human sacrifices, did they ever do that to humans from a different tribe, rather than their own? Thanks. 12.239.13.143 (talk) 21:18, 29 August 2018 (UTC).[reply]

Your question 1 is an interesting question. Unless an usage strongly established, following a rigorous tradition it seems that the passage from the one to the other could easily be a matter of opportunity. During prehistory, auguries were practiced on the entrails of victims. Then they quite obviously could be human, or not. --Askedonty (talk) 21:39, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The Carthaginians may have practiced child sacrifice as well as animal sacrifice. Blueboar (talk) 21:56, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The medieval Scandinavians also practiced both: Old_Norse_religion#Sacrifice. - Lindert (talk) 22:02, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There also are some finds that could be interpreted as evidence for human and animal sacrifices by a neolithic society in todays Germany. There also are suggestions that some bog bodies could have been human sacrifices. But neither of those are definitive of course. 31.150.103.255 (talk) 04:39, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

You say "ancient Greeks/Romans did animal sacrifices", but the Romans, for all their loud and probably exaggerated, if not invented, criticisms of Gauls and others for making human sacrifices, did so themselves in various circumstances. Vestal Virgins who were accused of breaking religious vows were sealed in caves or pits to die on religious grounds, which might be viewed as human sacrifice. Prominent prisoners of war were taken back to Rome, exhibited in triumphal parades, and sometimes subsequently (perhaps after some years of imprisonment) sacrificed to Roman gods (c.f. Vercingetorix who was ritually strangled as an offering to Mars). Moreover, gladiatorial combat originated in the funeral rites of Latin tribes absorbed by Rome in which men fought to the death as a religious sacrifice. See also Religion in ancient Rome#Human sacrifice.

Greek legends also contain various stories that are suggestive of human sacrifice in an early period, but there is less material or direct written evidence for it. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} 90.208.127.181 (talk) 23:39, 29 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think "Native Americans" in general did human sacrifices, but rather certain Mesoamerican civilizations -- probably the Aztecs were the most prolific. AnonMoos (talk) 02:43, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That's true. Native Americans do not represent a cohesive cultural group; there were dozens of cultural areas, many of which had little to connection with the other, as different or more so than Icelanders would have been from Vietnamese. --Jayron 32 16:04, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. I'll also suggest that a history professor who says that little is known about Africa from before the spread of Islam is just trying to stop talking to you. African history and archaeology are enormous fields of study. Matt Deres (talk) 13:31, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is it a myth that having the Chinese military pose for sculptures was a way to give the emperor an army in the afterlife without killing some soldiers? The Ancient Egyptians were even more efficient, they just had to draw servants on the tomb's walls and pharoah would have that many servants. Sagittarian Milky Way (talk) 14:29, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 30

Jeremiah Evarts Chamberlain

I’m trying to find what novel by Jeremiah Evarts Chamberlain is mentioned here?KAVEBEAR (talk) 08:47, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

There is not a lot on the web about him. It seems he went by the name "J. Evarts Chamberlain" or sometimes just "Evarts Chamberlain", and there's some interference in the research from two other people with similar names, Jeremiah Evarts was a notable missionary for whom your guy was named, and there's also a "John Evarts Chamberlain" that appears to be a different person. Other than your book, I only find This newspaper discussing his memorial service in a short blurb, This yearbook mentions on page 10 that he attended Williston Northampton School in 1846, and there's not much else I am finding. --Jayron 32 10:44, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

John Evarts was his nephew. Here is what I found on him. It is still not much and doesn’t answer the question about the novel he wrote. Can anyone help find concrete sources of his service in th Civil War. This said he served in the 7th Wisconsin Volunteer while this States he served in Captain Edmond’s Volunteer Company (whatever that is). While the book I linked above States he was served on a Mississippi steamboat. So context wise, Chamberlain seems to be a Union military chaplain who served in a Wisconsin or Michigan regiment or both and saw action at the Battle of Shiloh. He attended Harvard Law and lived in St. Joseph, Michigan after the war until returning to Honolulu in 1873. Can anyone with a better research knowledge of the Civil War find any more information him? KAVEBEAR (talk) 16:54, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Kitchener's three salaries

In Asquith by Roy Jenkins, we read of Kitchener that "his special status, as Sir Philip Magnus has informed us, was symbolised not only by his sitting on the right hand of the Prime Minister in Cabinet, but also by his drawing three salaries". One salary would of course be that of Secretary of State for War, but what were the other two? DuncanHill (talk) 10:37, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He was still earning his Field Marshal's crust, and he had a "special allowance" of £1140 a year. Source: [7]. --Antiquary (talk) 12:47, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Do we know what a Field Marshal got in those days? And, for that matter, a Secretary of State for War? I see our article Philip Magnus is not about the author, who is at Philip Magnus-Allcroft. I'll have a go through the incoming links to sort them out. DuncanHill (talk) 13:15, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

So he only had to sit in one place but had three salaries? I was robbed, I once had three different jobs with three desks on different floors of a building - but they only gave me one salary ;-) Dmcq (talk) 17:02, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This referenced article says: "In the British Army of 1914, the commander in chief was paid at an inclusive rate (excepting field and travelling pay) of £4,500 per year. A general received £800 per year".

I had thought that not being an active officer, Kitchener might be on half-pay or a pension, but it appears that " field marshals never retire, and this is a way of rewarding them for the great services which they have rendered to the country in order to reach that exalted rank". Hansard 1956 Alansplodge (talk) 17:18, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That google books link does not display the text for me. The link to Hansard is here, and talks of field marshals being on half pay in 1956. We still don't know what a field marshal in the First World War would have been paid, or whether Kitchener got full- or half-pay for it, nor do we know what he got as secretary of state. DuncanHill (talk) 10:46, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

OK, I found this in Hansard from March 1916, Arthur Lynch and William Cowan asked about Kitchener's salary, David Lloyd George, as Minister of Munitions answered "On the outbreak of War, Lord Kitchener was in receipt of £6,140 a year, which was the salary drawn by the British Agent and Consul-General in Egypt while on leave. On his acceptance of the post of Secretary of State for War this salary was continued." DuncanHill (talk) 10:50, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Prayer as Cultural universal?

I was expecting to find prayers included in the long list of cultural universals. However, apparently it's either implicit in things like "attempts to control weather" or "Death rituals, mourning" or it's simply not really a universal. Has some anthropologist an opinion on this? --Doroletho (talk) 17:32, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

As far as I know, you would only need one significant cultural group that doesn't pray to make it not a universal. I believe that Australian Aboriginal religion and mythology does not include prayer. --Jayron 32 17:42, 30 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I think Meditation is the real "cultural universal" in that sense since also rituals and dances, from Tea ceremony over Sufi Dance up to aboriginal Songlines, are forms of meditation and prayer is actually just another variation of meditation common to the Abrahamic religions civilizations. --Kharon (talk) 11:42, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

August 31

Kitchener - "he is not a great man, he is a great poster"

Margot Asquith is quoted in our article Lord Kitchener Wants You as saying "He is not a great man, he is a great poster", and is in the Oxford Dictionary of Quotations as saying "Kitchener is a great poster". ODQ cites her More Memories, 1933. Our article cites Brushes and Bayonets: Cartoons, Sketches and Paintings of World War I by Lucinda Gosling. Do we have an earlier citation for her using this (or a form of this) saying? I ask because in researching K's salaries, I came across a comment in Hansard by Arthur Markham in May 1916 where he says "Lord Kitchener, we all know, is a great poster, and has been very successful as a poster, but what happened with regard to recruiting?" DuncanHill (talk) 11:45, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Excellent! According to Nigel Rees's Cassell Companion to Quotations Margot Asquith, in her More Memories, actually attributes the remark to her daughter Elizabeth. In 1924 Christopher Addison wrote that "someone" had once told Lloyd George that "Lord Kitchener might or might not be a great General, but he was certainly a great Poster." But I think you've practically got back to the horse's mouth. --Antiquary (talk) 16:53, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

That reminds me that Lloyd George did quote it in his War Memoirs - he ascribes "Not a great man, but a great poster" to a "lady with a pernicious gift for stinging epigrams", which would be as good a description of Margot as any other. So - everyone thinks Margot said it, Margot says her daughter said it, but Markham seems to have got there first. DuncanHill (talk) 17:15, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Quite possibly, though I am worried by that "we all know". Does that suggest that it was a joke already doing the rounds? --Antiquary (talk) 18:58, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that struck me too. Margot seems to say that her husband quoted Elizabeth when she (Margot) warned him of K's possible unsuitability for the role of War Secretary, but as his appointment preceded the poster this seems unlikely. I did go back to search Hansard for earlier uses, and there do not appear to be any. Addison's book came out in 1924, LlG's War Memoirs between 1933 and 1936 (the character sketch of K is in an early section), and Lady Asquith's More Memories in 1933. It would be out of character for Margot to deny originating a line like that if it really was her own. I don't think it beyond her to claim it as her daughter's even if it was a common quip at the time. Anyone got the ability to search old numbers of Punch or John Bull and the like? DuncanHill (talk) 19:28, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

How could he be a great poster, the Internet wasn't even invented yet Asmrulz (talk) 22:25, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Publicly announcing deaths several days after the death occurs in East Asia

In Japan, it appears to be the common place, if not the norm for deaths of public figures (at least in entertainment) to be announced several days after the death occurred, usually after wakes and funerals have already taken place. There are exceptions to this in Japan (some deaths are announced immediately), but these are exceptions. I was wondering: is this also the case in China and Korea? And what are the reasons for this kind of practice in Japan then? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 13:38, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Is this valid method of procurement in any government agency in utility sector

Under Indian law, is it allowable for a department (or department head) to bypass the a formal open "request for tender" process, by instead calling limited tender among arbitrary selected vendors. Specifically, does this (or is this likely to) violate vigilance rules of central vigilance commission or state vigilance commission, for a state-owned company for generating thermal power?

The company has a official public notice published in its website stating that material and services will be procured through e-tender and interested parties must acquire Digital Signature Certificates from authorized agencies for participating in the e-tendering process and in the said notice there is no mention of value range or type of items or services for which e-tendering is exempted and other methods are to be followed.It is also mentioned in the notice that for any unforeseen eventualities interested parties may follow notice in organization website

However, in one of this company's power plants,information technology related goods , services and works procurement is not handled through the open e-tendering process, but instead tender is only available to vendors arbitrarily selected by an official.

Is the "limited tendering" policy described above valid? If not, is it a form of corruption? Could this be evidence of a kickback scheme or other systematic corruption?Wrogh456 (talk) 15:27, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Your apparent IP 103.24.110.233 geolocates to India. No one here is qualified to answer the legal questions you're raising. If you're concerned, you should consult an attorney there in India. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:45, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

This is nothing to do with legal advice. This is a request for information concerning rules for government procurement. E-tendering is normally only for high value contracts, i.e. those above a certain financial limit. You say that there are no value ranges specified, but that doesn't mean they don't exist. It would be silly for a government agency to require e-tendering for paperclips or pencils, for example. You can ask the agency for their detailed procurement rules, but they might not give them to you. You could also write to the agency's auditors and see if they're interested. --Viennese Waltz 16:08, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Asking whether something is illegal is a request for legal advice. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:20, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Not at all. He's not proposing to do it himself, therefore it's not a request for advice. --Viennese Waltz 20:36, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

He's making an accusation of illegal activity. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:17, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Pisan title to Sardinia

Did the doges of the Republic of Pisa ever adopt a title in reference to Sardinia, which they ruled for some time? For example, the doges of Venice called themselves dukes of Dalmatia. And did the Genoese use a title in reference to Corsica? Surtsicna (talk) 18:59, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Greek Orthodoxy on Sardinia

When did Sardinia become Roman Catholic? And when did its native rulers, the judges, become Roman Catholic? The New Cambridge Medieval History says that Pope Gregory VII (r. 1073–85) "was anxious to bring the island into line with the institutions and customs of western Christianity, challenging the strong local tradition of Greek Orthodoxy". It seems it was not yet Catholic during the pontificate of Gregory VII, despite having become independent from the Byzantine Empire 200 years earlier. Surtsicna (talk) 19:23, 31 August 2018 (UTC)[reply]

@@ Line 264: / Line 264: @@
 :::Quite possibly, though I am worried by that "we all know".  Does that suggest that it was a joke already doing the rounds? --[[User:Antiquary|Antiquary]] ([[User talk:Antiquary|talk]]) 18:58, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
 ::::Yes, that struck me too. Margot seems to say that her husband quoted Elizabeth when she (Margot) warned him of K's possible unsuitability for the role of War Secretary, but as his appointment preceded the poster this seems unlikely. I did go back to search Hansard for earlier uses, and there do not appear to be any. Addison's book came out in 1924, LlG's ''War Memoirs'' between 1933 and 1936 (the character sketch of K is in an early section), and Lady Asquith's ''More Memories'' in 1933. It would be out of character for Margot to deny originating a line like that if it really was her own. I don't think it beyond her to claim it as her daughter's even if it was a common quip at the time. Anyone got the ability to search old numbers of ''Punch'' or ''John Bull'' and the like? [[User:DuncanHill|DuncanHill]] ([[User talk:DuncanHill|talk]]) 19:28, 31 August 2018 (UTC)
+:<small><small>How could he be a great poster, the Internet wasn't even invented yet [[User:Asmrulz|Asmrulz]] ([[User talk:Asmrulz|talk]]) 22:25, 31 August 2018 (UTC)</small></small>
 == Publicly announcing deaths several days after the death occurs in East Asia ==