User talk:Fdom5997

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Speedy deletion nomination of Template:Hitchiti language

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Wikipedia and copyright

Hello Fdomanico51997, and welcome to Wikipedia. All or some of your addition(s) to Apalachee language have been removed, as it appears to have added copyrighted material without evidence of permission from the copyright holder. While we appreciate your contributing to Wikipedia, there are certain things you must keep in mind about using information from your sources to avoid copyright or plagiarism issues here.

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Native-languages.org

I don't think Native Languages .org is a reliable source for information about the languages or even their phonologies. The site doesn't cite authors or source so it is basically impossible to verify the information there. The information you added to Natchez language was no in accord with the more reliable source by Kimball. So basically I don't think it is helpful to add links to native-lanugages.org or to use those sites as a source of information for articles. If you need I can generally point you to better sources for a given language that you are interested in writing about.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 07:55, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

Your submission at Articles for creation: Frankie Domanico (April 7)

Your recent article submission to Articles for Creation has been reviewed! Unfortunately, it has not been accepted at this time. The reason left by Robert McClenon was:  The comment the reviewer left was: Please check the submission for any additional comments left by the reviewer. You are encouraged to edit the submission to address the issues raised and resubmit when they have been resolved.

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Western Apache

The best sources on Western Apache phonology are these:

• de Reuse, Willem J. (2006). A practical grammar of the San Carlos Apache language. LINCOM Studies in Native American Linguistics 51. LINCOM. ISBN 3-89586-861-2.
• Gordon, Matthew; Potter, Brian; Dawson, John; de Reuse, Willem; & Ladefoged, Peter. (2001). Phonetic structures of Western Apache. International Journal of American Linguistics, 67(4), 415-481.

A youtube video made by some speaker is not real source.

But, more importantly, the video doesnt actually say what you claim it says. The video is merely a recording of a wordlist. It has no phonetic/phonological analysis associated with it.

Additionally, you are misinterpreting the spelling system. Historically, these languages don't have any voiced stops. And not only that – these phonemes actually don't have any voiced alternations either. Unfortunately, in Athabaskan linguistics (including Navajo and all Apache languages), the symbols b, d, g, dz, dl, j are used to represent the unvoiced, unaspirated (plain/affricated) stops. And, the spelling systems follow this practice. It's weird, I know. But, that's the way it's been for around 90 years.

But, it's even worse than that. Some languages have recently developed voiced phonemes. And, the traditional writing doesn't have a way to write these sounds. The White Mountain Apache dialect of Western Apache is one of these languages. It has a voiced /d/ that corresponds to /d/ in Plains Apache and to /nd/ in the San Carlos dialect of Western Apache as well as the /nd/ in Chiricahua and corresponds to /n/ in the Dilzhe'e (Tonto) dialect of Western and the /n/ in Navajo, and so on. (It goes back to proto-Apachean/proto-Athabaskan.) De Reuse writes this as an underlined d. Interestingly enough, this change in White Mountain may have happened pretty recently since it was not noted by Harry Hoijer in the 1930s (although he worked mostly with the San Carlos dialect) and he didn't note it for Jicarilla although /d/ is noted for Jicarilla since the 1990s.

Anyway, all this is why you should consult linguistics sources instead of amateur websites or youtube videos. I know it's not necessarily easy to even find that these sources exist. I suggest that you consult Marianne Mithun's The languages of native North America if you are going to continue to do this. One of the best things about this book is the very extensive bibliography it has. You should be looking up the references cited by Mithun. Now, Mithun is not going to have everything, but she will point you in a better direction than just googling websites. As for Apachean languages, you are just lucky that I happen to know a lot about this family and can point you to the best materials (and I happen to poking around on wikipedia these days). – ishwar  (speak) 05:26, 7 April 2017 (UTC)

Lushootseed

I'm a bit confused by your changes in the article Lushootseed. The conventions for phoneme tables are as follows: If a phoneme is marginal (occurs only in a few words/loanwords and/or a few dialects), it should be in parentheses. If it is an allophone, it should not be in the table but explained in a footnote. If it is neither, it should not be marked as all entries in the table are assumed to be phonemes. Please see English phonology and other phonology articles for examples. Thanks. Catrìona (talk) 14:11, 14 April 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for your contributions to the article. Could you please explain why you have deleted the reference to the true palatal consonants (ç and so forth)? I derived them from the alphabet section of this article, which, while needing clear inline citations seems to be based on Lushootseed-specific linguistic work which I consider more reliable then the source that you cited (Browner 2009). Browner is also not a meaningful language learning resource if only two pages are devoted to Lushootseed language. Catrìona (talk) 16:10, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

I recommend simply reverting his contributions to native american phonologies which do not tend to be supported by good sources. In my experience he does not reply to attempts at communication.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:24, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

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Way too many errors

I have found errors in all of the phonologies that you have provided that I have checked, some of them so bad that I had to remove the entire section since I didn't have time to reconstruct it. You have received a lot of advice and helpful reminders to use reliable sources for your edits, and to make sure you include exactly what is in the sources. If you continue inserting poorly sourced and erroneous information into Wikipedia's articles on languages I will have to ask administrators to block your account.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 07:40, 7 June 2017 (UTC)

Speedy deletion nomination of Draft:Frankie Domanico

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Serbo-Croatian phonology

To answer your question, there's nothing wrong with the current state of the article. The offending text consisted of several parapraph of the Sun and Wind story, and they were removed from the article in March last year. The article as it stands now shouldn't be affected, only parts of its history are likely to get deleted. – Uanfala (talk) 21:18, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Oh, thanks for letting me know :) Fdomanico51997 (talk) 22:17, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

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Lulesamisk

I just received Spiik's Lulesamisk grammatik. Let me know if there are anything specific you would like me to check in it.·maunus · snunɐɯ· 11:46, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Check if there is a phonology section of the book. You could probably fix the phonological information if the one on the Wikipedia page is not as accurate. Or you could (if you possibly can) send me copies of the pages via my email (frankiedomanico597@gmail.com). If you cannot find anything, that’s fine. Fdomanico51997 (talk) 20:10, 10 September 2018 (UTC)

Walloon language

Hi, could you explain this reversion? I can't spot any obvious problems. You should have given an explanation in the edit summary. — Eru·tuon 01:07, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

The phonological vowel chart was defomed, so I fixed it a bit Fdomanico51997 (talk) 01:50, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

Okay, I see what you mean. I redid my edit and fixed the table. — Eru·tuon 01:55, 30 September 2018 (UTC)

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!Kung language

Hi. I reverted your recent addition to this article. At first I thought it might belong at Central !Kung, though it's difficult to know without a cited source. On closer look, though, it seems to be a melange of dialects rather than any particular phonology. If it is Central !Kung, and you have a source to support it, it would make a nice addition to that article.

Thanks, — kwami (talk) 09:50, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

@Kwamikagami Yes those basically were just all of the !Kung dialects combined, and not that specific either. The source I found was able to display the phonological information for Central !Kung (Grootfontein !Kung) so I was able to make that addition. Fdomanico51997 (talk) 02:22, 11 December 2018 (UTC)

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Hello, Fdom5997. You have new messages at Amateur55's talk page.
Message added 20:17, 11 February 2019 (UTC). You can remove this notice at any time by removing the {{Talkback}} or {{Tb}} template.

Oh my god I just realised what you did to my tables

Okay, so I spent a very long time separating the various phonemes into their own cells. It took me hours and hours and hours. I have just noticed that now there are perhaps up to three phonemes in one cell. It is not clear which of them are phonemes anymore. Especially Middle Cornish palato-alveolar fricatives. Which now reads 'ʃ [ʒ~dʒ]'. Now, is that ʃ, realised as [ʒ~dʒ]? Or is it two phonemes, /ʃ/ and /ʒ~dʒ/?

^ ^ ^ Please answer this question, it is very important ^ ^ ^

Similarly, it is much more important that we can see that /m/ and /mː/ are separate phonemes in Middle Cornish than that the tables look 'much better and more organized' (to whom, one might ask...)

That was the whole point of what I did - to give each ***phoneme*** its own box. Now they are all messed up again when I did not know how to separate them properly. It is now ambiguous, and makes me want to cry. Tewdar (talk) 15:07, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

I put the old ones back. Please, if you think there should be changes, go to the talk page and we can discuss it.Tewdar (talk) 15:37, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

PLEASE STOP CHANGING MY TABLES

/m/ and /m:/ are SEPARATE PHONEMES IN MIDDLE CORNISH

PLEASE FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THAT IS HOLY STOP 'FIXING' THE TABLES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!Tewdar (talk) 17:52, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

THERE IS A TALK PAGE ON THE DRAFT ARTICLE - USE IT!!! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tewdar (talk • contribs) 17:55, 10 July 2019 (UTC)

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November 2019

Please refrain from making unconstructive edits to Wikipedia, as you did at Eric Swalwell. Your edits appear to constitute vandalism and have been reverted. If you would like to experiment, please use the sandbox. Repeated vandalism may result in the loss of editing privileges. Thank you. – Muboshgu (talk) 05:25, 21 November 2019 (UTC)

Please preview, consolidate, and summarize

Hello, and thanks for your efforts here. Below are a few editing suggestions to make it easier for you and others to collaborate on the encyclopedia. Please preview, consolidate, and summarize your edits:

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Thanks in advance for considering these suggestions. Eric ^talk 23:06, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Was there anything in the above post that you had trouble understanding? Would you like further guidance? Eric ^talk 03:03, 4 January 2020 (UTC)

A request

Hello, if you have some time, can you check the edits by 175.223.23.204 at Chokwe language, Luchazi language, and Khwe language? The IP has engaged in vandalism and I'd like to know if these recent edits are legitimate. Thank you. Nardog (talk) 00:55, 2 January 2020 (UTC)

Help:IPA/Danish‎

Please stop edit warring and start discussing on the talk page. The decision to get rid of the voiceless diacritics was made after a thorough conversation, as you can see on the page. Nardog (talk) 23:55, 3 January 2020 (UTC)

Natchez language

Hi Fdom5997! I have seen you have reverted a recent unexplained edit in Natchez language, and admonished the editor about his "messing around". Well, any kind of edit is fine, if well-sourced and well-explained, so I have added a friendly, but "orange-colored" reminder for that editor to use edit summaries.

Why I'm here: at least in the case of Natchez, the other editor was actually not totally wrong, and most likely acted in good faith. In all published descriptions of Natchez that I can look up at the moment (Haas 1956; Kimball 2012,2013a,2013b), the "stop" phonemes are listed as: /p/, /t/, /c/, /k/, /kʷ/, and /ʔ/. Kimball adds [ts] as phonetic realization of /c/. Now, obviously, [ts] is not a stop in IPA, so a strictly phonetic table will have to treat it the way we presently do in Natchez language. But if the sources actually only tabulate phonemic systems, shouldn't we then follow the paradigms given in the sources, and make necessary phonetic explanations (such as /c/=[ts]) within that framework without altering the orginal grid? Just a thought. –Austronesier (talk) 11:41, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

@User talk:Austronesier I see what you're saying, and yes I do accept using the phonemic transcriptions, but as long as we are noting the phonetic transcriptions along with it. So then yes, it is totally fine using transcriptions such as "/phonemic/ [phonetic]". But they must be used at the same time. Fdom5997 (talk) 22:20, 13 January 2020 (UTC)

Bernie Bro

I reverted your edit to Bernie Bro where you said the allegations of racism and sexism are false. This is not something that can be proven false, and with millions of Sanders voters there are bound to be some racists and sexists in there. There have been definite incidents of Sanders supporters harassing others, and even if they don't make up a large proportion of his base, they have been noted by the media. Your edit also violated WP:NPOV.— Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 01:09, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Yes that is true. And there also was an inequality between women and men being paid in 2016 as well. Bernie had come and apologized for this and addressed this in January 2019. Fdom5997 (talk) 03:56, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

The fact that Bernie apologized for it doesn't make it not true. A candidate can't stop their supporters from doing something. Most of his supporters aren't like that but the few who were/are got a lot of media attention. Your goal seems to be protecting Sanders' reputation.—Naddruf (talk ~ contribs) 05:03, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

Well yes it did happen. I do admit I am a bit biased. Fdom5997 (talk) 05:05, 26 February 2020 (UTC)

February 2020

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing.
As you have been told several times at this point, the recent changes to Help:IPA/Danish and Danish phonology were made after extensive discussions. You're absolutely entitled to challenge them by laying out your case on a talk page, but not by making abrupt edits to articles or the help page. Nardog (talk) 19:56, 29 February 2020 (UTC)

Slender R

In the Irish phonology article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irish_phonology Why have you modified slender R to be represented by its less common allophone? The reason given seems to be that allophones should be noted seperately, but every other phoneme in the phonemic chart is represented by the IPA of its primary allophone, e.g. broad L. Why should Slender R be any different?

That is because, [ɹ̝ʲ] is its phonetic symbol. The phonemic symbol is transcribed as /rʲ/. Fdom5997 (talk) 17:22, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

Where? In Celtic studies papers and books on Irish phonology the phoneme is usually given as /r'/, see The Irish of West Muskerry or any of the DIAS dialectology monographs. How is /ɾʲ/ its phonemic symbol when it's explicitly saying it is a palatalised tap? Look at broad L it is given as /ɫ̪/ which explicitly gives its realisation.64.43.132.47 (talk) 22:57, 7 April 2020 (UTC)

August 2020

You currently appear to be engaged in an edit war according to the reverts you have made on Lithuanian phonology; that means that you are repeatedly changing content back to how you think it should be, when you have seen that other editors disagree. Users are expected to collaborate with others, to avoid editing disruptively, and to try to reach a consensus, rather than repeatedly undoing other users' edits once it is known that there is a disagreement.

Points to note:

1. Edit warring is disruptive regardless of how many reverts you have made;
2. Do not edit war even if you believe you are right.

If you find yourself in an editing dispute, use the article's talk page to discuss controversial changes and work towards a version that represents consensus among editors. You can post a request for help at an appropriate noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, it may be appropriate to request temporary page protection. If you engage in an edit war, you may be blocked from editing. Nardog (talk) 04:21, 26 August 2020 (UTC)

Please do not remove closing tags

In this edit and possibly others, you removed closing </small> tags. Please do not do that. Closing tags are required for all tags that are opened. – Jonesey95 (talk) 13:31, 1 September 2020 (UTC)

Why did you revert my edit?

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Swahili_language&oldid=prev&diff=980392505 I removed the reference since it was a 404 not found page. No use keeping dead links around, and reverting it makes no sense. It should either be replaced with a correct link if you know of one, or another source which supports the same claim. Since I'm not aware of any of those, I marked it as citation needed, so someone else can do that. But dead links are just clutter. Smashhoof (talk) 08:36, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

I reverted it because it was only a dead link. Unless it is archived somehow, somewhere, then it could potentially be reverted back Fdom5997 (talk) 08:39, 26 September 2020 (UTC)

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Stuff

/ś/ does flow between [ɕ ~ ʃ] and how do i know this? because ima native speaker, so you dont believe a native speaker huh edit: its the same in all the southern dravidian languages

There is no source cited to prove that though. Fdom5997 (talk) 00:07, 16 October 2020 (UTC)

here

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m

Sorry but which part of it is "false"? AleksiB 1945 (talk) 02:34, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

/ts/ does not exist in Malayalam Fdom5997 (talk) 03:43, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

[1] AleksiB 1945 (talk) 04:07, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

tat-samayaṁ not tatsamayaṁ Fdom5997 (talk) 04:20, 30 November 2020 (UTC)

here and there is also an audio version of it

Qaqet

Hey,

you keep adding the approximant [w] as a phoneme in the Qaqet article. I assume you follow Parker & Parker (1974).

I am currently in the process of reworking the Qaqet article based on Hellwig (2019). Prof. Hellwig has done years of fieldwork documenting the Qaqet language, and her grammar is by far the most comprehensive one yet. I am working for Prof. Hellwig in her project on child-directed speech in Qaqet, so I have a lot of experience with first-hand Qaqet language data myself.

The 2019 grammar does not list /w/ as a phoneme of Qaqet. The sound does surface in Qaqet words, but Hellwig analyzes it as an allophone of /u/ (and, accordingly, /i/ has a consonantal allophone /j/). There are good reasons for this analysis. First, it fits the syllable structure better: the maximal syllable in Qaqet is CCVVC, as in sɽiam; if you admit the semivowels as true consonants, you would have to expand the syllable structure to CCCVC. Also, there is free variation in the realization of these semivowels, between secondary articulation of the preceding consonant and true diphthongs; so kua can be [kua] or [k^wa]. Of course, these matters are always a source of contention. But, in any case, if you do include /w/ in the consonants proper, you would have to include /j/ as well.

I would really appreciate it if you explained your reasoning behind /w/ being a phoneme, or else refrained from undoing my changes to the article.

Captain Jreg (talk) 15:21, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

@Captain Jreg thank you for giving me a more detailed explanation on this matter. Hellwig (2019) also gives detailed information on this and also explains how the semivowels are not phonemic. I agree that if I were to list the two sounds, they should be in phonetic notation as allophones of /i u/. Fdom5997 (talk) 22:13, 2 December 2020 (UTC)

December 2020

Hello, I'm Eyer. I noticed that you made an edit concerning content related to a living (or recently deceased) person on Matt Gaetz, but you didn't support your changes with a citation to a reliable source. It's been removed and archived in the page history for now. Wikipedia has a very strict policy concerning how we write about living people, so please help us keep such articles accurate and clear. If you think I made a mistake, or if you have any questions, you can leave me a message on my talk page. Thank you! —Eyer (If you reply, add {{reply to|Eyer}} to your message to let me know.) 23:26, 4 December 2020 (UTC)

Ese language phoneme change

I italicized the tsh because that phoneme doesn't appear in the chart, and I wanted someone else to correct it. Reverting my change doesn't solve the problem. Sdiabhon Sdiamhon (talk) 12:54, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

I corrected it because it was incorrect according to the source. It is not a palato-alveolar sound [t͡ʃ], it is an alveolo-palatal [t͡ɕ]. Fdom5997 (talk) 17:54, 13 December 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for making the correction. Should the /ts/ allophone also be retroflex like its voiced counterpart?2806:102E:18:314D:A50F:2242:88BE:D507 (talk) 21:15, 16 December 2020 (UTC)

Hello

Hi. I recently edited the phonology on the "Turkmen language" article and you seem to be redoing all of my changes. In fact, I believe this is the second time you're doing this and there has been no reason for either of those. Why are you doing this? Sheppik (talk) 05:58, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

@Sheppik I am simply doing it because the phonological information is inaccurate and does not match the correct source given. Fdom5997 (talk) 22:32, 11 January 2021 (UTC)

January 2021

Hello. I have noticed that you often edit without using an edit summary. Please do your best to always fill in the summary field. This helps your fellow editors use their time more productively, rather than spending it unnecessarily scrutinizing and verifying your work. Even a short summary is better than no summary, and summaries are particularly important for large, complex, or potentially controversial edits. Thanks! Austronesier (talk) 20:20, 13 January 2021 (UTC)

Again?[2] The other user may be wrong in their approach, but they're not a vandal. –Austronesier (talk) 20:17, 14 January 2021 (UTC)

Lithuanian phonology consonant table

I was under the impression that the table lists individual phonemes and that allophones are in the bullet list below ([ŋ] does not change the meaning of a word), not that the table lists most common sounds and the bullet list - less common ones. Austronesier seems to have that impression as well. And I see that you prefer the table to be inconsistent in two more ways. Anyway, I'm an introvert so huge that the trill exchange in Talk:Lithuanian phonology caused me to have digestion problems and your revert without explanation had me holding back tears. I won't be making any more edits. Pat yourself on the back for taking the trash out. 37.157.147.100 (talk) 09:18, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

Take this as a level 3 warning for disruptive editing. Don't revert well-explained and constructive edits without an edit summary, as you did here[3]. The next steps are level 4 and ANI (with request for a block or topic ban), if this behavior doesn't change. –Austronesier (talk) 12:13, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

You may be blocked from editing without further warning the next time you disrupt Wikipedia, as you did at Inuktitut. Again, you have reverted constructive edits in several articles without an edit summary as if they were just vandalism. The novice editor did not leave a edit summary either, but clearly we have to distinguish between new and experienced editors. –Austronesier (talk) 12:52, 18 May 2021 (UTC)

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Edit summaries

Hello. I have noticed that you often edit without using an edit summary. Please do your best to always fill in the summary field. This helps your fellow editors use their time more productively, rather than spending it unnecessarily scrutinizing and verifying your work. Even a short summary is better than no summary, and summaries are particularly important for large, complex, or potentially controversial edits. Thanks! Laterthanyouthink (talk) 00:13, 15 June 2021 (UTC)

Nenets language additions

Hei Fredom! I just wanted to know why you reverted the edits on Nenets language, since they adhered strictly to verifiability, and most language articles that don't have a seperate article on "Grammar of X language" feature grammatical information beyond phonology. So, would you rather want there to be an article "Enets grammar" instead of including the relevant information on the "Enets language" article? Nice work adding the information to different language articles! Best, Dont-you-love-it-when (talk) 02:43, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

Yes, why? And note: why rhymes with WP:AN/I. So please provide a good explanation. –Austronesier (talk) 13:21, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

@Dont-you-love-it-when I reverted the edits because they are not phonological symbols, and are mainly used for the orthography. Do I want a separate page for the grammar or phonology? No because why do we need it? This page is displayed to show the information of the language, including the grammar (and phonology), so it's not necessary to need to create a separate page. Fdom5997 (talk) 17:54, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

@Fdom5997 I've browsed through the cited source, Künnap (1999) again, and this is how Künnap represents the phonological system, so it's in line with verifiability. You could want to figure out what exactly Künnap meant, but in the end, the columns of the table tell you everything one needs to know. In Uralistics, people often don't use the IPA but the so-called Finno-Ugric Transcription, short FUT, also called Uralic Phonetic Alphabet (UPA) which uses a lot more diacritics but is designed to capture the sound systems of Uralic languages specifically. If you were to change the transcription by Künnap, you would have to do original research. Furthermore, discontent with not using the IPA does not touch on the other undoings. So I would really recommend considering undoing your undoings, it will be a verifiable addition to the article. Btw, Books-are-my-love-language is an experienced student of mine in a course on Uralistics and I have reviewed their grammar sketch before they went on to add it to Wikipedia. Books-are-my-love-language didn't ask me to ask for the circumstances of the undoing, it was simply me who was interested to know why such a nice addition would be undone, and what I might have overlooked when I assessed their work. Best, Dont-you-love-it-when (talk) 23:28, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

@Dont-you-love-it-when I will not undo my undoings because if you are to display the phonological information anywhere, you have to use the IPA (International Phonetic Alphabet) symbols. Finno-Ugric Transcription is only used when strictly studying Uralistics. This was not an addition, you were replacing the IPA symbols. Most people who have knowledge of phonetics study the IPA chart, universally speaking, so every phonetic transcription of phonology is consistent. Fdom5997 (talk) 23:43, 29 July 2021 (UTC)

@Fdom5997 Would you undo the undoing of stuff that is non-phonological if the non-verifiable IPA chart is kept?

@Dont-you-love-it-when: A retranscription of the sound charts is not original research as long as the sounds are sufficiently explained in prose in the source. So if e.g. the source says "i̮ is an unrounded high central vowel", then it is ok to retranscribe it as [ɨ]. Ideally, there should be a key that explains how the spelling convention used for the remaining sections relates to IPA. This key can be included in the sound tables. –Austronesier (talk) 09:08, 30 July 2021 (UTC)

Khmu language

Wjy did you undo several edits, including a bot edit, with no explanation in your edit summary? ― Qwerfjkltalk 06:08, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

I did leave an edit summary, while I was fixing the Phonology section that had been hijacked. Fdom5997 (talk) 06:12, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

If you were only trying to fix that, then you should have done it manually, not by reverting. ― Qwerfjkltalk 06:14, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Ok, yes. Sorry about that. Fdom5997 (talk) 06:16, 13 September 2021 (UTC)

Removal of ɪ and ʊ from Marathi phonology

Hi, Fdom 5997. Recently in the page of Marathi phonology, you added the IPA sounds ɪ and ʊ back into the 'Vowels' table. While I do thank you for re-adding the template I added in the table, I suggest removing the two symbols mentioned, as they do not appear in the Marathi language, unlike Hindustani. Furthermore, as the symbols aren't mentioned in the rest of the article, they seem unnecessary, or out of place.

Sincerely, SomePacifisticGuy SomePacifisticGuy (talk) 07:59, 5 October 2021 (UTC)

ANI

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Austronesier (talk) 11:21, 11 October 2021 (UTC)

matching mayan languages’ phonology chart

i think it is a good idea for all mayan languages to have the same order of the phonological chart. because if i want to compare i could be able to copy-paste it but as you reverted it i would have to sort it instead of easily comparing it. so i don’t think it was unneccessary to put the phonological charts in the same order.

Gtmnsa (talk) 21:53, 16 October 2021 (UTC)

@Gtmnsa well guess what, not everything revolves around what you “personally” prefer. Fdom5997 (talk) 00:42, 17 October 2021 (UTC)

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Bangime language

Hi Fdom5997, just a little unsure what you meant in this edit. Not a problem to me if you do not think the brackets appropriate, but I became really confused by your edit summary that went along with their deletion: I did not think brackets (these) indicated either /phonemic/ or [phonetic] "occurrences". I was merely trying to follow the pattern used in the table of distinguishing allophones. You'll have to bear with a very rusty transcriber; it's been years and years. Can you enlighten me? AukusRuckus (talk) 11:36, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@AukusRuckus: When you put a sound into parentheses in phoneme tables, it primarily suggests it is marginal (e.g. only occurring in loanwords). Another common practice in WP is to add non-phonemic allophones in phoneme tables with parentheses. I am not exactly a fan of this, but you see it very often and that's what you apparently intended to indicate with (j). The problem is, /j/ is neither marginal nor non-phonemic. The contrast between /j/ and /ʒ/ is neutralized in some environments, but still robust (according to Hantgan's dissertation; I don't have access to the MGL volume). What indeed needs to be put into parentheses is [dʒ], which appears to be an allophone of /ʒ/ after /n/ (again following Hantgan's dissertation). –Austronesier (talk) 13:14, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

@Austronesier: Thanks so much. I really appreciate the explanation. And yes, you're right, that is what I intended (following the intro above the table "Sounds in parentheses are either allophones or [marginal]") However, I see what you mean, and also better understand Fdom5997's ES. Thanks for taking the time. AukusRuckus (talk) 13:27, 7 December 2021 (UTC)

Regarding your erroneous edits in Dogri's phonology section

I see that you have taken it as your new hobby to revert my edits. I hope you're enjoying so far. However, such petty edit wars cannot continue on a site like this. You asked me for a source for the new phonology chart, and I provided one - a legitimate document about the structure and phonology of Dogri from a government-sponsored institute which documents the languages of India. Yet you refuse to accept it. Your 'source' is incorrect. Dogri doesn't have the open back unrounded vowel 'ɑ'. it has an open central unrounded vowel 'ä/a:', like Hindustani (refer to Hindustani phonology). The Eternal Wanderer (talk) 03:47, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

@The Eternal Wanderer I do not revert edits just for fun and games. Your source is just simply not of actual linguistic data. The source that I used is a physical copy of a book that is *actually based on* the linguistic structure of Dogri. Your source is just a government-based documentation on the languages of India, not a linguistic/grammatical source. And neither did I even insist that Dogri does not have an open central unrounded vowel [ä], /a/. It does, but it fluctuates to an open back vowel sound [ɑ], and was just transcribed as /ɑ/ rather than [ä ~ ɑ]. Fdom5997 (talk) 05:48, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

@Fdom5997 That source was also authored by linguists, so it is of 'actual' linguistic data. Moreover, being a native speaker of Dogri, I can assure that it does not fluctuate back to an open back vowel. Moreover, you removed my addition about the nasalisation of the long vowels too. Out of the 10 vowels in Dogri, the 7 long ones have a nasalised variant [ĩ ũ ẽ õ ɛ̃ ɔ̃ ã] not just [ĩ ʊ̃ ɔ̃ ɑ̃ ɛ̃] as your source (incorrectly) states. How do I know that? Because I'm a native speaker, that's why! In fact ʊ is not nasalised in Dogri as it is a short vowel. Since you won't be satisfied without proof, here you go - नेईं [ne:ĩ:] आपूं [a:pũ:] लोकें [lo:kẽ:] जोंगा [dʒõ:ga:] भौं [pɔ̃:]. Another issue with your 'source' - ɲ and ŋ shouldn't be in brackets. Unlike f and z, which are seen in loanwords, ɲ and ŋ are part of the 'vyanjan' and have their own place in the alphasyllabary. Also, ɦ does exist in Dogri, in words like [ɦa:] 'was' and [ɦe:] 'were'. ALSO, Dogri has DENTAL, not alveolar plosives. So, it is more accurate to write t̪ t̪ʰ and d̪ in the IPA chart instead of t tʰ and d. The Eternal Wanderer (talk) 07:02, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

@Fdom5997 Thank you for taking my points into consideration. I have no further qualms with the phonology section. Cheers! The Eternal Wanderer (talk) 09:31, 10 December 2021 (UTC)

Blackfoot phonology

/ks/ IS a phoneme in Blackfoot, and you removed it without reason. There were already five sources for its inclusion when you removed it.

Got it, my bad. Fdom5997 (talk) 01:08, 16 December 2021 (UTC)

The Linguist LL (talk) 22:20, 15 December 2021 (UTC)

Third party

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. The thread is Wikihounding. The discussion is about the topic Topic. Thank you. Eievie (talk) 00:01, 24 December 2021 (UTC)

Rusyn Vowels

Just wanted to understand your edit to Rusyn language#Vowels. The modification I made to the chart brings it in line with what is presented in Pugh 2009 (and is itself a translation) from the Rusyn Presov standard grammar, Василь ЯбурАнна Плїшкова - СУЧАСНЫЙ РУСИНЬСКЫЙСПИСОВНЫЙ ЯЗЫК (2009), pg. 10.

Are "Front-Central" and "Central-Back" nonstandard terms in linguistics? Let me know! --^💬KaerbaqianRen 17:20, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Sidenote: the source I included does not apply to the reverted version of the table.

19:14, November 1 2024 (UTC), KaerbaqianRen^💬

Hello @KaerbaqianRen, to answer your question, those terms are typically not standard terms when explaining the articulations of vowel sounds in linguistics. I believe that what Pugh meant to say was that they were more centralized rather than "front central/back central". I actually do have Pugh's same publication, but I was just simplifying it in that it is rather confusing because Pugh does not use the exact phonetic transcription to display the vowel sounds in his publication. I also just want to let you know that I may revert the vowel section back because I put down that note to prove that those vowels pretty much are phonetically centralized, as Pugh (2009:24) has stated as "front central/back central". Fdom5997 (talk) 09:34, 31 December 2021 (UTC)

December 2021

A ridiculous cat

Please excuse my erroneous edit, likely a mistaken rollback or revert caused by my fat fingers, hypnagogia, or one of my ridiculous cats. I have likely self reverted or noticed the mistake after you corrected it. Again, my apologies. Thank you. EvergreenFir (talk) 19:42, 28 December 2021 (UTC)

Levantine Arabic FAC

Hi Fdom, I nominated Levantine Article for FAC. As you're interested in linguistics and Palestine, I thought you could be interested in reviewing this nomination. Thanks for any help you can provide. A455bcd9 (talk) 08:48, 28 March 2022 (UTC)

Well thank you very much for the nomination! Sorry if it is about time that I am replying, but I do have a real interest in Palestine, and truly believe that they must be given autonomy and human rights! And I also find the Southern Levantine Arabic dialects interesting to study as well! Fdom5997 (talk) 04:04, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

Siglitun

There is no need for the bold text in those boxes. See Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Text formatting#Boldface. Also there is no need to link Canada as per Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Linking especially What generally should not be linked. The link link at "Language family" shows as Eskimo–Aleut but links to Eskimo–Aleut languages on the next line linking [[Eskimo language|Eskimo]] is just a redirect to Eskimo–Aleut languages. Not useful for the reader. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 21:37, 12 April 2022 (UTC)

A cup of coffee for you!

Hello, Fdom5997! I just noticed that you have edited the term "Jin Chinese" for several times. As a Jinnish reseracher and second speaker, I'm really appreciate it. Due to some reasons my first language is Standard Mandarin, although I am native to Shanxi province. Still, I have been learning & researching Jinnish for 8 years and discovered some unique features which most "experts" neglected or ignored such as 孃母(nr-) — a unique feature discovered by a friend of mine 5 years ago. If you are interested in Jinnish language or Mandarin. I'm glad to tell you anything you wanna find out! And finally, Because Jinnish is quite unknown in the western world, I have decided to make some videos about it in the next few months! Plz contact me by telegram or email My telegram https: t.me/JinnishResearcher My Email: kanjibanzai@gmail.com Tsingnywiki (talk) 03:33, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

@Tsingnywiki Well thank you very much for your kind words and your knowledge of the Jin Chinese dialect here! I am very fascinated in general linguistics from any language across the world. And I decided to display the information on the phonology, because I believe that one of the key subjects to study in the field of linguistics, is the pronunciation of both languages or dialects. I came across many different sources that displayed the phonology for the dialects of Fenyang and Taiyuan, the more represented of the Jin Chinese dialects. I find it interesting that there are several different dialects of Chinese, and how each dialect may differ in regards to grammar and phonology. If you could add more to the grammar section based on your knowledge, I'd love to see it! Fdom5997 (talk) 04:00, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

I just started to work on the page of Jin Chinese again, but this time is in English.

I also created a reddit channel r/jinnish months ago, more information posted there. Tsingnywiki (talk) 22:49, 22 November 2022 (UTC)

Tsonga

If 'tl' etc. are not affricates, does that mean they are laterally released stops? Not sure what the IPA for them would be, if only 'dhl' is an affricate. Also odd that the one "affricate" is voiced -- wonder if that's allophonically a fricative. Otherwise, what's the difference between "dl" and "dhl"? (Please ping.) — kwami (talk) 08:35, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Yes, according to Baumbach (1987) they are known to be lateral-released stops, not affricates. The IPA for them is pretty phonemic. Not sure why “dhl” is more of an affricate and is the only voiced fricative one. It does not say that the lateral-released stops allophonically have fricative affricates. And “dl” is also laterally released like “tl” but voiced, and “dhl” is the fricative affricate. Fdom5997 (talk) 15:14, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

Okay, I'll change them to unambiguous lateral release.

We don't indicate other allophones, and the slight adjustment of the nasals and mid vowels is trivial, so best covered in the text with the rest.

For the supposed dental nasal in -nqunta 'kiss', could that be a nasal click? Quite odd for a language to have clicks but no nasal ones. — kwami (talk) 17:51, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

I see it as more of a syllabic nasal [n̩-] sound before the click. I can check the source again just to make sure. Fdom5997 (talk) 18:12, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

He gives a similar inventory for Fwe in "Languages of the Eastern Caprivi" (1997), and that language definitely has nasal clicks (voiced and voiceless). So I wonder if his analysis is trumping phonetics. Or perhaps he was mislead in Fwe because of Tsonga -- it would be nice to have a second RS. — kwami (talk) 18:21, 5 May 2022 (UTC)

If you want allophones, add the allophones listed in the source. If you don't want to do that, then don't. But don't try doing both at once. I'll keep reverting until you follow the source. — kwami (talk) 17:04, 6 May 2022 (UTC)

I.P.A. transcription of "elle evanescente" in Venetian.

I can't find any section in the grammar of Belloni that uses I.P.A. transcription for this sound. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Moreover, I can add a list of academic literature of Venetian linguists that clearly transcript the sound as (AND ONLY AS) [e̯]:

1. Zamboni, Alberto (1980): Veneto. Pisa: Pacini.

2. Ferguson, Ronnie (2007): A Linguistic History of Venice. Firenze: Olschki.

3. Tomasin's article "elle evanescente" is already in the bibliography of the Wikipedia page - Tomasin, Lorenzo (2010), La cosiddetta "elle evanescente" del veneziano: fra dialettologia e storia linguistica (PDF), Palermo: Centro di studi filologici e linguistici siciliani.

For these names (and obviously Cortelazzo) there is a continuous cross referencing in academic literature about Venetian, Belloni I never heard of and I've never seen cited his name anywhere in academic papers.

There is no difference between "word initially and elsewhere" - it's also not correct. It should be "word-initially and intervocalically" /l/ > /e̯/. That only in the case that we don't have a /e, i/ sound around, there it gets deleted altogether i.e. telefono [teˈɛfono] "telephone". Hence i.e. luna [ˈe̯una] "moon", la cola [e̯a ˈkɔe̯a] "the glue", but vardarla [vaɾˈdaɾla] "looking-her". Or lezar [ˈɛzaɾ] "to read" but par lezar [paɾ‿ˈlɛzaɾ] "for reading". So obviously the transcription of one of the most famous Venetian words gondola should be [ˈɡoŋdoe̯a], [ˈɡoŋdoa] or [ˈɡoŋdola], but surely not [ˈɡoŋdoɰa].

I need you to tell me exactly where you deduce the transcription [ɰ] for these words. Thank you.

(PS. Zamboni has phonetic transcriptions of recordings for every Venetian variety in his monography).

Gianluca Beraldo (talk) 17:58, 20 May 2022 (UTC)

Wichí vowels

In Wichí the front open vowel patterns with the front vowels /i/ and /e/ for phonological processes, which is why it was listed under the front vowel column, and not a central vowel column, despite being phonetical more centralized.

This same process occurs in the Nivaclé language. While your edit comment about there being no reason to remove the central column again isn't wrong (You can leave the edit, this isn't me telling you that you need to change it), there also is no point in adding it. It can stay either way on the Wichí languages page as both interpretations are correct, but show different information, but it does not need to be changed on pages like Nivaclé Language in the future, as there are citations in Lyle Campbell's book Nivaclé Grammar that defend it remaining as it is. (The phonological processes mentioned).

TLDR: You don't need to make any changes based on my feedback, just know that sometimes there are reasons why a language's phonology might be grouped as it is. The Linguist LL (talk) 19:29, 2 June 2022 (UTC)

Regarding your edits to Jingpho Language

Hello,

I've noticed you hounding my changes to various phoneme charts for the last few days. I am here to ask why you had to revert my change here [4] (which only cleaned up the table and orthography sections), and then proceed to add back everything I changed over the course of about 20 minutes up until this revision, [5], which as you can see if you compare the two only put a word inside some brackets and changed the word "voiced" to "central" on the chart - and you did not restore the initially incorrect (before I fixed it) orthography section - which included incorrect phonemes such as [ʒ] - and a shocking mix of IPA and IPAblink.

In the future, if you wish to continue, I request that you put your own changes on top of my edits and refrain from mashing the revert button then doing the exact same thing I did.

I trust you will fix the outstanding issues with the Jingpho orthography chart as well. Thanks.

P.S. - might I add, you did the exact same thing with the Northern Ndebele page as well.

P.P.S - and Fula - in which you literally just turned the table back to the exact version I changed it to in the course of two edits. How is this in any way a good use of your time?

Stan traynor (talk) 17:07, 8 June 2022 (UTC)

Persistent reversion of my edits

Hello,

I've noticed that you've kept reverting my improvements to phonology charts for little reason, despite my request for you to stop. For example, you did the exact same thing to Luri language as you did to Jingpho, etc. If you do not stop, I will be forced to take this to Wikipedia:ANI (and I expect they will take a very dim view of your actions considering what happened last time. Thanks. Stan traynor (talk) 06:41, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

How about just leave the charts alone the way they are? There really are no rules to how the charts "have to look". What really matters is that they are based on a reliable source. As long as the charts are not too excessive, but if they display an affricate row, or a lateral row, or a palatal column with a postalveolar column, it really is not a big deal. Other than that, your renditions of the charts really are not worthy. Fdom5997 (talk) 07:45, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Why are they "not worthy"? The smaller the chart the better, in my opinion (and your reversions of my edits have led to massive expansions of some charts... see Comorian languages).

You were specifically told to "cut it the hell out" in the ANI thread from December, and I'll echo what the admins said there - "You do not WP:OWN the articles and should only revert disruptive edits."

My edits are in no way disruptive, and if you continue to revert them I will be taking it to ANI. Stan traynor (talk) 07:53, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

@Stan traynor: What constitutes an improvment may lie in the eyes of the beholder. Many of your undicussed mass edits are just cosmetics and reflect personal preferences which you cannot unilaterally introduce to every phone/phoneme chart. If you feel that Fdom5997 has reverted a substantial improvement to a table, then please discuss it in the talk page of the respective article. –Austronesier (talk) 07:56, 10 June 2022 (UTC)

Phoible

@Fdom5997 What leads you to think phoible isn't a reliable source? It's used in a ton of articles ([6]) - and there's no reason for it not to be, since it's just a compilation of phonemic analyses from other sources. Would you rather the direct source of the inventory was cited instead? Stan traynor (talk) 17:36, 13 June 2022 (UTC)

Yes, the direct source is always more reliable than a secondary. Fdom5997 (talk) 01:23, 14 June 2022 (UTC)

Armenian phonology

Not many articles have their letters for that system next to their IPA transcriptions, it makes it easier to read. 87.115.190.116 (talk) 19:20, 29 October 2022 (UTC)

Banjarese

So not only are you putting unsourced material in the article, but you delete the sources I provide so you can keep it? If you believe the source is wrong, take it to talk. Otherwise knock it off. — kwami (talk) 04:02, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

@User:Kwamikagami No. The material is* cited that I am publishing. And I just cited another newer source to further prove my point. Fdom5997 (talk) 04:05, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

So we have conflicting sources. Durasid has 3 monophthongs and 3 diphthnogs. We can show both. — kwami (talk) 04:09, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

How about let's just leave it at Sudarmo's source. It explains the standard dialect, and is much more updated. Fdom5997 (talk) 04:16, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Because there's apparently some variation, and it would be good for us to reflect that. On Banjarese Wiktionary, there are editors who use only the 3 vowels a, i, u, even in loan words, e.g. assimilating "asteroid" to "astiruit". Others use 5, though I can't tell if they make a phonemic distinction or are merely retaining the Indonesian orthography of technical words.

Also, does Sudarmo say anything about /e, o/ being introduced through loans? — kwami (talk) 04:24, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

No, Sudarmo confirms that they are phonemic (not from loans). The three vowel inventory occurs in the Kuala dialect. Fdom5997 (talk) 04:28, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

Sounds introduced through loans can be phonemic! But if he shows minimal pairs using native vocab, that would be clear enough. — kwami (talk) 04:30, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

He shows the sounds appearing in native vocabulary, and concludes that there are 5 vowels. And does not state that they're from loan-words. What you're mentioning with the three vowel inventory, is only the Pahuluan* dialect of the language. Fdom5997 (talk) 04:39, 3 November 2022 (UTC)

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Basque phonology

Could you care to explain why my edit to the table was "unconstructive"? Because unless we're using diametrically different definitions of "unconstructive", I don't see it at all. Santi2222 (talk) 21:12, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

It was unconstructive in that it did not fix or add anything. All it did was format the chart in a way that you personally preferred to see it as. Fdom5997 (talk) 21:20, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

So, your reasoning is that having the exact same information as before shown in half of the space is just "my personal preference"? Is having a phoneme chart in which the spellings aren't shown in boldface also my personal preference? I like phoneme charts in which the most visible thing are phonemes, but I don't think this is a very controversial opinion.--Santi2222 (talk) 22:09, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

ANI

There is currently a discussion at Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents regarding an issue with which you may have been involved. Thank you. Sarrail (talk) 05:13, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

December 2022

This is your only warning; if you purposefully and blatantly harass fellow Wikipedian(s) again, you may be blocked from editing without further notice. As reported at ANI, with consideration given to your previous behaviour — leave Eievie alone. — TheresNoTime (talk • they/them) 06:11, 13 December 2022 (UTC)

Hitchiti vs. Mikasuki

User:Donald Albury is cleaning up the Hitchiti article, which currently covers both the historic tribal town and the Hitchiti language. We were curious if the Hitchiti language is the same as the Mikasuki language or if it's a related dialect. Omniglot appears to say they are the same. Native-Languages.org suggests Hitchiti is an extinct dialect of Mikasuki-Hitchiti. Thank you for any insights! Yuchitown (talk) 18:38, 18 December 2022 (UTC)Yuchitown

Edits of Ch'ol Language Jan 2023

Hello, I saw you reverse my edits to the Phonology section of the Cho'l Language. I did include my source, so I'm not quite sure what you meant by "unsourced." Also, it is more accurate to order consonants from obstruents to sonorants, which is why I changed the order of "Nasal." YjlJeremiah (talk) 17:32, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

I was wrong about the “unsourced part. But the order you arranged them in is not at all accurate. Most IPA charts are ordered with the nasals in the first row Fdom5997 (talk) 20:14, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

Sorry, this is not IPA, but a subsection of language typology. In most Linguistics papers, in particular language typology, the consonant inventory is ordered in the way in which I did. YjlJeremiah (talk) 04:00, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Wyandot Phonology Reversion

Hi, I would like to ask why my edits to the phonology section of the Wyandot language were reverted. The table had the orthographic representations of some sounds but not others, and I was adding those that were missing. Electricbrass (talk) 18:57, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I didn’t revert your edit. I reverted some no-name guest who hacked the phonology chart. Fdom5997 (talk) 19:37, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

It was me. I didn't notice I wasn't logged in when I was making the edit. Electricbrass (talk) 19:41, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Oh. Well it was wrong and not according to the sources provided that I have seen. Fdom5997 (talk) 19:44, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

It is based on class materials made by Dr. Craig Kopris (cited elsewhere on this page) for the Wyandotte Nation's language classes. Electricbrass (talk) 20:14, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

That's not a reliable source. If you are citing phonology or linguistics, cite one that is written by an actual linguist, with a professional background. Fdom5997 (talk) 20:23, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Craig Kopris has a Ph.D. in linguistics and has been the Wyandotte Nation's linguistic consultant for years. The majority of the linguistic information on this page is cited as coming from his grammar and dictionary of the language from 2001. Electricbrass (talk) 20:46, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Yes but /d/ is not prenasal. It's a standard voiced plosive. Most other sources will tell you that. Fdom5997 (talk) 20:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

I did not change the table to say that it is prenasalized. I only added that it is written in the language's orthography as <ⁿd>. (And by the way it is written this way because it is often prenasalized, as stated in the main source that the rest of the phonology table was taken from). Electricbrass (talk) 21:16, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

With all due respect, I don’t think you have the basic skills needed to do research or edit a Linguistics Wikipedia page if you can’t even Google a respected Linguist’s name. YjlJeremiah (talk) 20:52, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Well how about go look for yourself at other sources. I guarantee you that they will not list /d/ as prenasal. Fdom5997 (talk) 20:56, 26 January 2023 (UTC)

Moldavian

Do you have a source that Moldavian standard Romanian is phonologically distinct from Romanian standard Romanian? (Or really, that the phonology differs when the Moldovan standard is called "Romanian" and "Moldovan".) If not, the phonology section is superfluous and per FORK should be deleted. Note we're not talking about the Moldavian dialect here -- if that's what the table is, it belongs in the dialect article. — kwami (talk) 09:11, 30 January 2023 (UTC)

After going over an old revision of the phonological info that was listed on the Moldovan "language" page, you can see that it displays at the bottom of the section, a shared link to this page as the "main article". So I believe that we should move the old phonological charts to the "Moldavian dialect" page. Fdom5997 (talk) 02:10, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Could be. Doesn't really match, and no source. But no source at the dialect page either. — kwami (talk) 02:30, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

I am currently in the process of acquiring one through my ILL services. Fdom5997 (talk) 04:03, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Sounds good! — kwami (talk) 05:43, 31 January 2023 (UTC)

Tewa Phonology

Hello! Please don't revert my changes to the Tewa consonant chart. If you read the source cited, you'll see that my edits were in keeping with the academic material about this topic. Pages 43-50 were particularly enlightening on this subject. I'm simply trying to help make sure this language is well documented on wikipedia where it is more easily accessible by the general public :) OctoToast (talk) 20:49, 1 February 2023 (UTC)

I had just read the pages of the source that was given. A little rendering on the chart and information needed to be done, but overall the info and sounds are correct. Fdom5997 (talk) 01:19, 2 February 2023 (UTC)

Please leave the phonological charts and info alone. It is much more presentable and simplified when the chart is condensed, since it takes up much less of the page, and the policies of Wikipedia even recommend to do so. Stops and affricates are also technically the same (but co-articulated), and are pretty obvious to point out, so you do not need a separate row for them, and you don't display the retracted line under the first articulated consonants of the affricates. I also left the note out about the apico-alveolar consonants. Fdom5997 (talk) 00:37, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

According to that logic, affricates and fricatives are the same. I also don't see the point in combining dentals and alveolars and separating them by sibilation it is the same number of rows as simply. making dentals and alveolars their own categories. OctoToast (talk) 19:02, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

No, fricatives are not the same as affricates, if you read the rules of the IPA, it explains exactly how affricates are a form of stop sounds. And for sure, the IPA does combine the dental with alveolar articulation, and it definitely separates the fricative sounds whether they are sibilants or central (plain) fricatives. These are explained in the rules of the IPA. Fdom5997 (talk) 21:04, 3 February 2023 (UTC)

Show me the source that says that affricates are stops. While you're at it, show me the source that says to combine dentals and alveolars. OctoToast (talk) 04:25, 4 February 2023 (UTC)

@OctoToast: The Sounds of the World's Languages should cover that, as does our article Affricate. But that doesn't mean that we should indiscriminately lump together plain stops with affricates in the phonology tables. After all, [ʈ ɖ] are distinct from [tʃ dʒ]. It may be a good idea to always distinguish plosives from affricates in the table. Sol505000 (talk) 08:19, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Yes but those sounds aren’t even in this language. Ok fine, but it does still compact the table more when you merge the affricates with the plosives. Fdom5997 (talk) 09:33, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

It's not just a matter of whether the display is "compact" or not. It's the phonological structure that matters. In many languages of Northern America, especially the Northwest Coast area and the Athbaskan languages (and also in many Caucasian languages), affricates structurally align with plosives. In others, they obviously form their own series parallel to plosives (as in Swiss German). –Austronesier (talk) 13:33, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

When I hear [tʃ] I definitely distinguish it from [t] / [t̪] by affrication alone (no matter the language). The stop portion is just too similar to the phonemic stops, being laminal postalveolar. OR or not, the affrication is definitely the most decisive factor here. Unless the source explicitly states that the affricates pattern as plosives (as they do in Faroese), they shouldn't be put in the same row. Just my two cents. Sol505000 (talk) 13:55, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Absolutely agree. Only a reliable source can us about how the phonemes pattern. I am sure @Fdom5997 follows the same approach (we regularly revert the IPA kids who believe that every phonological table has to look the same, regardless of how the source presents the sound system). –Austronesier (talk) 14:04, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Exactly. Although I honestly don't mind the plosive/affricate sharing row though. If it's already there, leave it, but if it's not, then it's not necessary. That's my take. Fdom5997 (talk) 14:07, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

About sounds, Kazakh language

But those sounds are same like in the Kazakh IPA chart page. While what I see in Kazakh language, phonology page is not correct. Like ұ is always ʊ, Ү - is [Y] or [y]. Ö is ø and etc. Could you please return my changes back. NusrTansj (talk) 04:43, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

No because that info is unsourced, and the Kazakh IPA page needs to be changed because, that page is incorrect. The sounds on the Kazakh page are already sourced, and are phonetically correct. Fdom5997 (talk) 05:39, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

What are you talking about? Kazakh I.P.A. chart page is regulated by the confirmed user called Nardog. And where are the sources? I don’t see any of them about vowels. Stop talking nonsense, there is the sound of ü(ү) mentioned 3 times and all 3 of them shown as 3 different IPA letters. NusrTansj (talk) 13:11, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

The source is Vajda, Edward (1994), "Kazakh phonology". It is already cited for the consonants, and also explains the phonetic sounds of the vowels, cited within the vowel section. That is the source to use, as well as Wagner et al, “A Grammar of Kazakh. Fdom5997 (talk) 17:36, 28 February 2023 (UTC)

You have no idea nor knowledge, nor interest about it. As I said before the letter ү/ü mentioned 3 times in this one Kazakh phonology page and all 3 times it’s shown as the 3 different IPA letters. Give at least 0,0001% of attention before arguing about something you have absolutely no idea and stop overusing your position by devaluing the work of people with one click NusrTansj (talk) 10:10, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Well thanks for the passive-aggressive rant. I believe that it’s really important to go by actual sourced material. Not just simply by Wiki users. Fdom5997 (talk) 10:12, 1 March 2023 (UTC)

Istriot

Istriot very much uses the symbol "ʃ" and those native names for dialects, you can pick up any dictionary published by anyone and see that. I can cite to you from which dialect I specifically wrote for the word list and if you wish I can direct you to the exact pages of the dictionary where I got the words from. 46.35.129.212 (talk) 17:20, 7 March 2023 (UTC)

Portuguese phonology consonant table

This revert of my edits from over a year ago is completely incorrect. /ʃ ʒ/ are not dorsal and /w/ is not a "labialized /j/". Next time, either read the edit summaries or abstain from editing in areas outside of your expertise. The alveolar trill is not a standard sound for /ʁ/ and the table is meant to cover Standard Lisbon Portuguese. If it was meant to cover regional dialects, we'd have to put the alveolar tap in parentheses as the dialect of Setúbal features only one rhotic phoneme that is uvular, as in French. Sol505000 (talk) 07:03, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I've grouped together /ɾ/ with /ʁ/ as central liquid consonants. That should do. Sol505000 (talk) 07:21, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I respect your viewpoint, and yes that’s good you moved them to the liquid row too. At the same token, I was also thinking of merging the uvular column with the velar one, and have that be named as a “dorsal” column. Hope that’s okay with you. Fdom5997 (talk) 10:04, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

/j/ is dorsal too so that wouldn't work either. Sol505000 (talk) 13:17, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Why not? Then put /j/ in there too. Fdom5997 (talk) 13:23, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

And group it together with /w/? How would that work? Sol505000 (talk) 13:26, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Because /w/ is labialized. /j/ is not Fdom5997 (talk) 13:27, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

/w/ is not /ɥ/. The two don't belong together. Sol505000 (talk) 13:30, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

/j/ is in a totally different column though. Either just leave the the palatal column and put dorsal, or just combine and say velar/uvular. Fdom5997 (talk) 13:38, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

We can't "leave the palatal column and put dorsal". Palatal IS dorsal, unless we're talking about palato-alveolars [ʃ, ʒ, tʃ, dʒ] which are coronal. All other palatals (so alveolo-palatals, post-palatals/pre-velars, etc.) are dorsal. It's like putting a "coronal" column next to a column titled "alveolar". It makes zero sense.

Velar/uvular could work. The problem is that the initial /ʁ/ in Lisbon is often trilled, and a velar trill is impossible (that's another reason to label it a "liquid", which ignores the exact manner of articulation and voicing, which is appropriate for EP). I'd say just leave the palatal/velar/uvular distinction. Sol505000 (talk) 13:43, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

I don't have very strong arguments against the merger, given the fact that the third column is titled "Dental/Alveolar". The hard/long R in Brazil is often velar so I guess that the merger can be justified on this basis. Sol505000 (talk) 14:35, 25 March 2023 (UTC)

Your clearly prevalent conflict-of-interest edits

I am entirely right in that many of these so-called "language isolates" are infact not ones. You and your cabal of sock and meatpuppets are vandalizing this encyclopedia to promote your clearly false views on language isolates. Nestofbirdnests (talk) 01:56, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

I think someone needs to take a step back and realize that you are not citing *any* of your info here. I do and I know what I am doing. So please take your passive aggression somewhere else. Fdom5997 (talk) 02:03, 14 April 2023 (UTC)

You do not know what you are talking about. I'm simply trying to respectfully ask you to stop vandalizing Wikipedia with your hoax edits. I do not need to cite these because they are common sense statements that even a mentally retarded kindergartner would be able to determine as true. Nestofbirdnests (talk) 02:05, 14 April 2023 (UTC)