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Multiple academic, media and NGO sources say that the goal of the La Salida campaign was to remove Venezuelan president Nicolás Maduro from office. The other user has prevented this information from being present in the article for over a month. In an attempt to avoid edit warring, more sources were provided over the period of time, though those sources were continuously dismissed by the said user.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
The article's dispute boils down to the wording in the lead about the movement's goal. The original wording was a quote translated from the Spanish version: "whose objective was to 'find a peaceful, democratic and constitutional solution to the government of Nicolás Maduro'". WMrapids preferred version is "in an effort to remove Venezuelan president Nicolás Maduro from office" or variations thereof. Proposals have included "in an effort to end to the Bolivarian Revolution prevalent since 1998", "in an effort to seek [Venezuelan president Nicolás] Maduro's resignation", or simply avoiding stating the goal altogether. The proposals have not been satisfactory to WMrapids for the moment.
Please keep discussion to a minimum before being opened by a volunteer. Continue on article talk page if necessary.
First statement by moderator (La Salida)
I am ready to moderate this dispute. Please read DRN Rule A. It appears that the issue is about the wording of the party's goal. The policy that is critical is verifiability. The best wording is probably the wording that is the best translation of the party's own statement in Spanish of its goal. Will each editor state what they think that the English article should say, and any alternatives that they think are acceptable? Will each editor please also explain why think that their version is preferred, and what is wrong with any other versions? Do not engage in back-and-forth discussion. Robert McClenon (talk) 19:39, 20 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
First statements by editors (La Salida)
The best wording of La Salida's goals should include what third party, reliable sources detail, which is that the campaign was to remove Maduro from office. Those leading La Patilla also stated that Maduro's removal was their goal. Whether various methods were used to achieve this goal is not related to the main objective of the campaign.--WMrapids (talk) 17:08, 24 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Second statement by moderator (La Salida)
Since the issue appears to be verifiability of the statement of purpose, please provide the exact wording that you want to use to state what the goal of the party was, and please provide a footnote to a statement in Spanish.
In the introduction of La Salida, the first sentence in the introduction should read "La Salida (lit. 'The Exit') was a Venezuelan opposition political campaign launched on 23 January 2014 that was based on civil disobedience in an effort remove Venezuelan president Nicolás Maduro." No sources say anything about the objective being to end the Bolivarian Revolution (which is included in the current edit) but many do say that the goal was to remove President Maduro (some sources can be seen in this edit).
"A popular rebellion occurred in Venezuela on 23 January where citizens in the street decided to take that generation's destiny into their hands. Today, the spirit of 23 January is alive in us and just as that generation of 23 January 1958 did its task, us Venezuelans of our generation will do and are doing ours. ... in these hours we call on all Venezuelans to assume this historical responsibility of conquering democracy and freedom and that is why we do it by calling the people of Venezuela to the meeting space in that we are one in the streets of the country. ... In these hours, we call on citizens from all sectors of society ... to achieve that route and that exit has to be assumed by the people of Venezuela"
The video's description from Machado says the speech was to call "on Venezuelans to debate in the streets what 'the exit' of the regime should be like, always taking into account constitutional mandates and democratic principles."
Another main La Salida leader, Leopoldo López, made various statements about "La Salida" (The Exit):
During the same 23 January 2014 event as Machado, López said: "Venezuela needs a change. We have to move towards a change in the system, not just a change in government, a change in model. Today on 23 January, every 23 January we celebrate something that today we want to retrace. The essence of the rebellion of the people."
While we can see that the opposition leaders themselves promoted La Salida as a way to remove Maduro's government, we should take the words of reliable secondary sources before we should accept the political statements of opposition leaders.--WMrapids (talk) 16:12, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
Yes, I have discussed this issue on a talk page already.
Users added that Jesus lived "in Palestine" for the first time in the article's history in December of this year, 2 months into a brutal and divisive war in Israel and Palestine. The name of the region Jesus lived in was historically known as Judea until 132CE, when the name for the province was changed by Roman rulers to be "Syria Palestina". Users have engaged in a protracted edit war over the user of the term Palestine over Judea. The user of contemporary terms for historical figures is atypical. Caesar is a roman ruler, not an Italian one. Brasidas was a Spartan general, not a Greek one. Jesus was a Judean, not a Palestinian. Usage of contemporary terms with a politically-charged connotation is inappropriate in an article about the historicity of Jesus.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
I am hoping that a just resolution can be found, because the other users are unwilling to budge, despite historical fact not being on their side.
Summary of dispute by tgeorgescu
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
This isn't a matter of debating skills or logical sophistication. It is a matter of lacking knowledge. The OP does not know that the term "Palestine" is routinely applied by Bible professors to Jesus's time and place. I quoted several WP:RS explicitly making this point, but the OP thinks they are anecdotal evidence and demands a peer-reviewed study demonstrating that Bible professors use this term this way.
The respondent does not know that the terms "Judea" and "Galilee" are already used throughout Wikipedia, exclusively, on articles pertaining to the life of Jesus. The respondent continues to misconstrue contemporary usage of modern names, preferring anachronisms rather than historically correct words to describe this region.
Please note the difference between talking about "the history of Italian city states" and making statements such as "Caesar was from Italy", which would be incorrect. Ironcladded (talk) 08:20, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Again, if it is an anachronism, it is not my own anachronism, it is scholarly jargon in use at the best universities for decades before the Gaza war. And frankly, the Gaza war had absolutely no impact upon how scholars use the term. tgeorgescu (talk) 08:39, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is in contemporary ways, not to refer to locations or lives of historical figures. You have not cited evidence of this, and are going against the volume of evidence available on this site. Articles pertaining to the life of Jesus exclusively use the terms "Galilee" and "Judea". You have been unable to articulate your reasoning for the use of the term besides random links to "books", some of which specifically use the term "Judea" and "Samaria" in relation to Jesus, laughably enough. Why should this one article be different than the other articles on Jesus' life that you can't edit, and why is the timing of this addition not highly suspicious? Ironcladded (talk) 08:43, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I made no edits about the Gaza war, and frankly, you should leave the Gaza war out of it, since historians of Antiquity do not usually mean the 21st century map/conflicts when they speak of "Palestine". Regardless of what you think, "Palestine" is vanilla scholarly jargon, used by the best professors in that field, and this has nothing to do with the Gaza war.
I never denied they use the term "Judea" and "Samaria" in relation to Jesus. I simply stated that "Palestine" is an usual term for describing the land and time of Jesus. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:02, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
If you would like me to leave the war out of it, you shouldn't accuse me of "Jewish" bias for presenting you with facts.
You didn't deny the term, which is more puzzling as to why you edited the article to say "Palestine" instead of Judea. It is not ever used to describe the land where Jesus lived on this cite or in historical contexts. You provided contemporary use by Biblical scholars, not referencing specific locations within the broad geographic region. Ironcladded (talk) 09:09, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Since you have admitted that You provided contemporary use by Biblical scholars, there is nothing else left to dispute. At least according to WP:PAGs, not according to your personal opinions. tgeorgescu (talk) 09:13, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please keep it brief - less than 2000 characters if possible, it helps us help you quicker.
Historicity of Jesus discussion
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I have blocked Ironcladded from editing the article in question and its talk page, as they currently do not meet the WP:ARBECR requirements for editing content related to the Palestine/Israel conflict. – bradv06:00, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You made it part of the Israel-Palestine conflict, when you related the usage of the historical name "Palestine" to this contemporary conflict. Accrding to Dunn, the name "Palestine" was already used by Greece-Roman writers in the 5th century BCE. So, your argument not to use this term is the present war. Can you explicate then, in relationto this war, why the term "Palestine" should not be used? Joshua Jonathan - Let's talk!07:05, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Never, in the history of this article, was the term Palestine in use before December of this year. It is highly unusual to use contemporary names for regions to mention where people are from. Caesar was not an Italian emperor, he was a Roman one. The fact that a similar name to Palestine was in use by Greco-Roman writers for the region centuries before does not change the historical name of the region at the time of Jesus' life, which was Judea. Rather than explain to you why Judea isn't a political choice, since it was the factual name of the region at the time of the life of Jesus, why don't you explain to me why the timeliness of this edit and the refusal to seek compromise? The name of the Roman region at the time of Jesus' life indisputably was not Palestine, so why is it being mentioned for the first time 2 months into a political conflict?
No, I did not make it a "part" of the conflict by insinuating that the name Palestine is not where Jesus is from, because that was not the region's name in the time of his life, regardless of how you'd like to spin it. Ironcladded (talk) 07:18, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Let's repeat it:
The name Palestine for that region has been in use since the 5th century BCE, so it's not just a contemporary name. Roman Judea did not include Galilee, where Jesus came from, and lived most of his life, so "Judea" is not exactly fitting.
You relate the use of the name "Palestine" to the Gaza-war; I kindly asked you to share your deeper thoughts and explain why the use of the term "Palestine" is unwarranted, in light of this conflict, but you refuse; that way, DR is not going to work.
You can continue to repeat your points, that doesn't make them more powerful.
"The name Palestine for that region has been in use since the 5th century BCE, so it's not just a contemporary name..." That is not in dispute, even amongst the users. Galilee was a separate region of the Roman empire, and it was also not called Palestine, but rather, "Galilee". The area he is agreed to have lived, which is what the article specifically mentions, is in Judea. This really isn't that hard to understand.
"You relate the use of the name "Palestine" to the Gaza-war; I kindly asked you to share your deeper thoughts and explain why the use of the term "Palestine" is unwarranted, in light of this conflict, but you refuse; that way, DR is not going to work." I have not refused, this is categorically incorrect. In my first response to you, I pointed out at this addition was made, for the first time in the history of this article, in December of this year. I agree that the use of the term Palestine should be removed. If the objective names of the place he lived cannot be used, then contemporary terms or ancient terms by foreign writers used prior to his life should not be used, either. Good day. Ironcladded (talk) 08:11, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the dispute resolution noticeboard's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.
User Keremmaarda has added a source to the article with an estimated figure of 15,000 for the size of the Ottoman army in the battle. This number contradicts all contemporary estimates. It comes from a single source which does not base this figure on any primary contemporary source nor on any analysis. The user keeps engaging in original research arguing that the estimates given in contemporary sources are unrealistic for X or Y reason, without providing sources to state they are unrealistic. They also engage in WP:SYNTH arguing that because the Ottoman army was smaller in 1476, the contemporary figures for this 1462 battle are unrealistic. User also shows a lack of understanding of primary and secondary sources and their use on Wikipedia.
Note that this is my first time starting a DRN report. If this summary is inappropriate just tell me and I will change it.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
Determine whether the source citing this claim is reliable. It's this one, page 42.
Summary of dispute by Keremmaarda
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Hello, people were disturbed by the example I gave in 1476. Since other editors such as OrionNimrod gave examples of the Battle of Mohács and the Ottoman wars in Europe independently of the subject, I gave the example of the military power of the Ottoman Empire in 1476. I did not use this as a resource. And I said Wikipedia doesn't care about primary sources. But other editors think that army numbers are taken only from period sources. However, I said that an estimated army number could be determined by examining the economic and logistical situation at that time. I leave it up to other admins and editors to decide whether my source is reliable or not. Thanks
Summary of dispute by OrionNimrod
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Hi, I checked the provided source, in the talk page I showed the author is not a Turkish historian but a Turkish literature teacher. The provided source is "Turkish culture, literature and language" and not reliable regarding military history. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Reliable_sources I also provided modern academic historian source which say the number of the Ottoman army was superior comparing with the Wallchian one, which is quite logical because Ottoman Empire was very big and Wallachia was small and do not have a big population especially comparing to the Ottoman empire, also the Sultan never marched with a such small army for a campaign as we can see in another Ottoman battle articles. I talked about examples, food, logistic, money... how they build armies, and also I showed that is a tendency by some user to claim that if Ottomans lost they claim, "they not lost just went home after the picnic (make an attack and siege far from his empire) because the weather was too rainy" and if Ottomans won "Ottomans were just a small army, and the enemy was very big" mostly irreal big numbers which based by primarly sources, by propaganda writing of the Sultan. Unfortunatelly medieval Ottoman sources are not so good regarding the battles, because they are absolute silent about lost battles, the Sultan = God, and success enemy generals = Devil.
Night attack at Târgoviște discussion
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Hello. The issue here is that nobody is updating the Salaar page's Box Office section and when i made a request to edit that section while providing 4 sources all of which are included in the list of WP:ICTFSOURCES as reliable sources, yet I've been asked to provide more sources. This, in my opinion is completely unfair and unacceptable. Therefore i am here on behalf of many other users who are waiting for the same request to be checked and updated. Thank you.
How have you tried to resolve this dispute before coming here?
You can help us resolve the issue by checking the edit request sources provided and then matching with the list of reliable sources mentioned in the article WP:ICTFSOURCES and then update the Box Office section of Salaar page accordingly.
Summary of dispute by Tousif.15
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Salaar discussion
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– New discussion.
– General close. See comments for reasoning.