Wikipedia:Reference desk/Language

Welcome to the language section
of the Wikipedia reference desk.

skip to bottom

Select a section:

• Computing
• Entertainment
• Humanities
• Language
• Mathematics
• Science
• Miscellaneous
• Archives

Want a faster answer?

Main page: Help searching Wikipedia

   

How can I get my question answered?

• Select the section of the desk that best fits the general topic of your question (see the navigation column to the right).
• Post your question to only one section, providing a short header that gives the topic of your question.
• Type '~~~~' (that is, four tilde characters) at the end – this signs and dates your contribution so we know who wrote what and when.
• Don't post personal contact information – it will be removed. Any answers will be provided here.
• Please be as specific as possible, and include all relevant context – the usefulness of answers may depend on the context.
• Note:
  • We don't answer (and may remove) questions that require medical diagnosis or legal advice.
  • We don't answer requests for opinions, predictions or debate.
  • We don't do your homework for you, though we'll help you past the stuck point.
  • We don't conduct original research or provide a free source of ideas, but we'll help you find information you need.

Ready? Ask a new question!

How do I answer a question?

Main page: Wikipedia:Reference desk/Guidelines

• The best answers address the question directly, and back up facts with wikilinks and links to sources. Do not edit others' comments and do not give any medical or legal advice.

See also:

• Teahouse
• Help desk
• Village pump
• Help manual

January 10

Antique/Antiques

I'm American. When I refer to someone who sells antiques, I call them an antique dealer. Would someone from the United Kingdom who also speaks English call them an antiques dealer? Is there a regional variation of this word? Dismas|^(talk) 11:29, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I think I (in the UK) would also say "antique dealer", consistent with the more common "antique shop". I see that their trade organisation is The British Antique Dealers' Association. The singular form is more usual in general, as in "shoe shop", "second-hand car salesman", "drug dealer" etc. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 11:50, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

If it's of any interest, in Australia antiques dealer or just antique dealer could be used. Maybe with an "s" a bit more imho. ps. Don't worry about being American, we understand. It's alright. . --220.101.28.25 (talk) 12:33, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I (from the UK) had heard a few times the term 'antiques dealer' with the -s, and thought it was purely American. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 14:21, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Noun adjuncts were traditionally mostly singular. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:46, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Hm. Is the dealer an antique, or is he/she dealing in antiques? The answer will determine whether there is an "s" or not. --TammyMoet (talk) 20:00, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Beat me to the punch (line)! That's a common amusement with the noun adjunct, that it can be taken as an adjective or otherwise ambiguously. Another example that came to mind was "horse doctor", and a mental picture of Mr. Ed wearing a stethoscope and scrubs. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:32, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

The example we had in our (amazingly boring) grammar textbook was "walking stick". TomorrowTime (talk) 09:42, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Between the walking stick (device) and the walking stick (bug), it gets more interesting. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:21, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Over-punctuation

I know that the internet has created new usages for various aspects of language, sometimes to reflect spoken language, sometimes out of efficiency. So things like texting cause shorthand uses like '4' for 'four' and 'l8r', etc.

So why, with all this, is there a tendency for some users to over-punctuate????? Do they really need all the question marks??? I need to know!!!Aaronite (talk) 19:01, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I have always seen it as mostly a joke, just like 4 for four or for, just because the Internet language is more between friends and therefor less serious sometimes. The Great Cucumber (talk) 19:07, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

I see multiple question marks as a form of accentuation, or stress. They're communicating that they're more baffled than the use of merely one question mark would convey. They're saying not just I don't know the answer and I want you to tell me, but I REALLY don't know the answer and I REALLY want you to tell me.

It's not over-punctuation because there is no such general phenomenon. Rather, there's a general phenomenon of under-punctuation. Typically, we'll see 3 or more sentences run into one continuous stream of words, with no caps, commas, full stops, apostrophes; and wide use of the fantastic new words im, cant and dont - except, and this is a very important exception, they will go out of their way to write the possessive pronoun its, which should NOT be written with an apostrophe, as it's. Go figure. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:15, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget "alot" as one of the new words. While I kinda understand "dont" or "cant", I just can't grasp how people can presume "a lot" is written "alot"... TomorrowTime (talk) 09:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Because it is very often used like an adverb, not a noun phrase (e.g. "I like skiing a lot"), so people assume it's a single word. Similar to the way you just wrote "kinda" as a single word. And it's older than the Internet (at least, than widespread awareness and use of the Internet); I remember having to be told by my teachers in the 1970s not to write "alot" as a single word. +Angr 13:48, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

It seems like texting in general tries to keep words as short as possible, in part because of the tedium of typing them with two thumbs or whatever. However, once one is positioned on the question mark, it's pretty easy to hit it several times, for whatever degree of emphasis. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:28, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

：I disagree, Bugs. At least on all the phones I've had in the UK, it's actually time consuming to type multiple '?'s in succession, as each time I try to get to the '?' I have to go through half a dozen other punctuation marks I never use first. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 21:28, 10 January 2010 (UTC) And as if to make a point, Wikipedia gave me a superfluous colon there. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 21:29, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

In my world, it's for emphasis, in part because the game doesn't allow anything to be written in all-caps. Caps are bigger, but large amounts of punctuation take up more space. Consider also that people that do this don't think about doing it, they just do it. You're at the end of the sentence. You write your question mark. Wait, I know - more question marks! Make it...just...MORE! Vimescarrot (talk) 22:58, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

So really the simplest explanation for why they do it is that they like doing it. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 23:16, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

That is true for at least one nontechnically savvy friend, who uses inappropriate multiple question marks without any special emphasis being intended. Comet Tuttle (talk) 23:37, 11 January 2010 (UTC)????

of course the internet has also brought about the issue of underpunctuation as well astronaut talk 02 07 12 january 2010 utc

peanut allergy sufferers in asia language help

I am about to go to vietnam, laos, cambodia and malaysia in about 3 weeks. I suffer from a peanut allergy and I am concerned about communicating this to other people. I cant find a reliable free translation site and need to know how to say "i am allergic to peanuts and will die if i eat them" or something similar to get the point across in all the languages spoken in the countries above?

I would really appreciate any help! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.31.55.224 (talk) 21:35, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

You may want to ask this question on this site. There are professionals there who will be only glad to help and, to be honest, I believe you will have a better chance of getting an answer there in all four languages, whereas here, you may only get some of them. You may want to point out that you need it in native script as well as romanisation so that you can show it to people rather than just relying on your own pronunciation, which leaves room for (possibly disastrous) misunderstandings. In the meantime, you may want to directly contact people here on Wikipedia who speak those languages. Here are the lists for Cambodian (Khmer), Lao, and Vietnamese. Sorry, I can't find a list for Malay speakers. Good luck! --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 22:50, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Since this is life-or-death for you, I would be very careful about trying to generate an accurate response on the internet, especially because there may be more than one language or dialect in the specific cities you are visiting. If you cannot hire a qualified local translator to accompany you at all times. Your IP locates to the UK - I'd try to talk to a real person at the relevant embassies of each country - they are supposed to be there to serve British nationals visiting those countries.

British Embassy in Vietnam

British Embassy in Cambodia

British High Commission in Malaysia

British Embassy in Thailand (there is no embassy in Laos)

(P.S. advice out there on the internet varies widely, right up to including the suggestion to stay home as peanuts and peanut oil are so widely used in cooking in this region. See [1] [2] [3]. This website sells pre-translated allergy cards, but I can't find the languages you need. Carry a picture?--174.88.204.105 (talk) 22:55, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

SelectWisely (as in the last link from 174) offers most if not all of your desired languages, although it looks like you'd have to talk to them (they are special order). They offer picture cards, and I would recommend carrying a picture card whether you buy one or make it yourself. I've had good experience with SelectWisely in the past, and would recommend emailing them to ask about your specific languages: they specialise in communicating this very information as clearly as possible. Obviously, this would cost more than making the cards yourself.

I assume you already have a MedicAlert of some kind: don't forget to wear it! And make sure you have a prescription for your epipen with you, at the very least: you might need to prove to security that the needle and container of liquid you're carrying are legal medication. I've heard this sometimes involves a trip to the airport pharmacist to verify the equipment! 86.178.72.55 (talk) 23:31, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

Rendering of an Hebrew word in English letters

How would I write the Hebrew word for decay (ןוריקב) in English letters? And how would I pronounce it? And is there a website where I could easily find this out if I have this question about other Hebrew words? 169.231.9.45 (talk) 23:06, 10 January 2010 (UTC)

You seem to have got the letters in the wrong order: it's ריקבון which is (right to left) r-y-q-a-b-v-n. But it's actually pronounced 'rikavon'.

It's actually a bit difficult to transliterate if you don't know the language. You can look up the consonants here for example, but everyday Hebrew doesn't write most of the vowels. This works because there are standard patterns for the vowels depending on the function of the word, but it makes it very hard to know how to pronounce or transliterate it if you don't. Actually my dictionary prints it as רקבון, without the 'y': that has been inserted as a helper to show that the first vowel is 'i'; and the second to last letter is sometimes a consonant 'v', but often functions as a vowel 'o' or 'u'. So this word could have been various other things such as 'rayakavon', 'rikabaven' or 'reyakobavan'; but a Hebrew speaker (which I'm not, really) will recognise it as 'rikavon'.

Sorry I can't be more helpful. --ColinFine (talk) 00:06, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, the correct spelling is רקבון, or ריקבון in Ktiv male. It's pronounced something between "rick-a-von" and "reck-a-von", with rick like the name Rick, a like in "argument", and o like in "port". You can spell it "rikavon" or "rekavon" in English. By the way, ריקבון only means bacterial decay, rot. There are different Hebrew words for different meanings of "decay". --Dr Dima (talk) 09:37, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Two points to clarify the above:

• rikavon is a transcription (as this word is pronounced) and might indicate that the first syllable is stressed. The first vowel is best represented with the English letter "i" and pronounced as a "short [i]". riqavon is an alternative transliteration (particularly a convention among linguists, to represent certain letters without actually resorting to IPA symbols) indicate that the second consonant is qof [ק] and not kaf [כ].
• This word, besides biological decay, is often used in the figurative sense, e.g. for moral decay. -- Deborahjay (talk) 12:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

January 11

Reinforcing existing prejudices

Is there a phrase for this? Possibly Latin? And is there a phrase which encompasses the route out of that circular condition? Kittybrewster ☎ 13:57, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

This condition is called Confirmation bias. The article quotes Thucydides History of the Peloponnesian War and Francis Bacon Novum Organum on this subject, so the Latin texts of those works should have what you look for. I have read neither, unfortunately, so I cannot help with the exact quote. --71.142.58.78 (talk) 17:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Thucydides' original was, though, written in Greek...but over the ages Latin versions probably cropped up.--达伟 (talk) 19:35, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

But as you can tell from the English translations of Thucydides and Bacon, they didn't have a pithy phrase for it, just a couple of sentences of a description. Adam Bishop (talk) 05:54, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

"Piange ... Il Telefono" (Italian song)

I would like some information on "Piange ... Il Telefono", which is an Italian pop song from 1975 sung by Domenico Modugno. First, I'd like an appropriate English translation to the lyrics. Second, I'd like to know what is the song / story / plot all about. I have searched all over the internet (including Italian Wikipedia), but I was not able to find much information of any help. Also, I was able to get a direct word-for-word translation from Italian to English. But, that was not helpful in translating the real / actual / contextual meaning of the lyrics. Below are the lyrics into which I placed line numbers for reference. The basic story is of a man making a telephone call, and a child answers the phone. The man's lyrics are printed plainly below, while the child's lyrics are parenthesized. Again, I am less interested in a direct literal translation, but rather a contextual translation for meaning / plot / story line. If it makes any difference, I think that the language is actually Neapolitan language (Nnapulitano / Naples), and not Italian per se. Also, if this is not the best place to ask this question, please direct me otherwise. Any help is appreciated. Thanks. (Joseph Spadaro (talk) 19:47, 11 January 2010 (UTC))

Italian lyrics to "Piange ... Il Telefono"

Title: Piange ... Il Telefono (Pronto) Ascolta Mamma è vicino a te? Devi dire a mamma c'è qualcuno che (Chi sei il signore dell'altra volta?) (vado a chiamarla) (Ma sta facendo il bagno) (non so se può venire!) Dille che son qui dille che è importante che aspetterò (Ma tu hai fatto qualche cosa) (alla mia mamma?) (Quando chiami tu mi dice sempre:) (Digli che non ci sono!) Ma dimmi sai scrivere di già E' bella la tua casa? A scuola come va? (Bene... ma dato che la mia mamma lavora) (è una vicina che mi accompagna a scuola) (però ho solo una firma sul mio diario) (Gli altri hanno quella del loro papà) (Io no!...) Dille che son qui che soffro da sei anni Tesoro proprio la tua età (Ah no... Io ho cinque anni!!) (Ma tu la conosci la mia mamma?) (Non mi ha mai parlato di te!) (Aspetta eh...) Piange il telefono perchè lei non verrà anche se grido: ti amo lo so che non mi ascolterà Piange il telefono perchè non hai pietà? Però nessuno mi risponderà L'estate andate a villeggiare all'Hotel Riviera? ti piace il mare? (Oh si tanto!) (Lo sai che so nuotare? Ma dimmi) (Come fai a conoscere l'Hotel Riviera) (Ci sei stato anche tu?) Dille la mia pena e quanto a tutte e due: vi voglio bene (Ci vuoi bene?) (Ma io non ti ho mai visto!) (Ma che cos'hai!) (Perchè hai cambiato voce?) (Ma tu piangi! Perchè?) Piange il telefono perchè lei non verrà anche se grido: ti amo lo so che non mi ascolterà Piange il telefono perchè non hai pietà? Però nessuno mi risponderà Ricordati però piango al telefono l'ultima volta ormai ed il perchè domani tu lo saprai Falla aspettare (Sta uscendo!) Falla fermare (E' andata via!) Se è andata via allora... addio... (Arrivederci signore) Ciao piccola!

Here is my translation.

-- Wavelength (talk) 21:10, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

[I am revising my quick translation. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:41, 11 January 2010 (UTC)]

Can we truncate this, please? It's far too long. Cheers! --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 21:12, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

The lyrics in French, Spanish, Italian, and English are at Le téléphone pleure - Claude François - LEXILOGOS >>.

The introduction in French says: "This is the story of a man who telephones his former lover whom he has not seen again for six years. At the end of the line, a little girl answers him. The man discovers then that he is her father ... This song, which came out in 1974, surpassed all the sales records of the career of Claude François: 2,800,000 45-rpm records." (I have the record and the girl's part is sung by Francesca Guadagno.)

-- Wavelength (talk) 21:32, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Cheers! :) --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 22:44, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

[I am revising my translation. Also, when I made the navigation box at 22:09, 11 January 2010 (UTC), I forgot to leave a comment in this section.

-- Wavelength (talk) 00:13, 12 January 2010 (UTC)]

Thanks so much for the input. This was very, very helpful ... and I appreciate it. Thanks! (Joseph Spadaro (talk) 17:45, 12 January 2010 (UTC))

January 12

Definition of OP

OP is often use for query is fully mean Opt. What does op for query use for questions stand for and mean?--69.226.34.161 (talk) 01:32, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

"Original Poster", the one who posted the question originally. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

For more terminology used in Wikipedia discussions, see Wikipedia:Glossary. -- Wavelength (talk) 01:56, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

This question seems to turn up frequently. Should it be kept on the ref desk pages permanently somehow? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:01, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I think so. OP is unfortunate jargon, and confusing, especially for non-chat-forum people, meaning 95% of Earth, probably. Comet Tuttle (talk) 05:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I thought is stood for 'obtusely placated' --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 14:43, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I think of it more like this. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I think it would be best no to use Internet slang here as much as possible. But let's take this discussion to the talkpage. — Kpalion^(talk) 09:56, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Don't forget to read the article on Original poster. But Wikipedia is not a forum! ~AH1^(TCU) 01:12, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Temperature subjective feel

I'm not really sure if this is a science or a language question. Anyway, I know there's a word for the phenomenon where when we touch some substances they feel colder or warmer than others because of what they are made from, but their temperature doesn't change. What's the word for that? Example: If on a day at 20°f you step outside onto a towel that sitting out there, or onto a sheet of steel sitting out there, you'll immediately think the steel is colder. Same thing for touching a piping hot piece of bread verses a metal pan at the same temperature (ouch).--70.23.81.136 (talk) 12:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Is it because steel is a better thermal conductor than towelling? Alansplodge (talk) 13:05, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Meaning that it's better at "drawing heat away from you". A similar phenomenon on a really cold day outside: an iron railing will feel a lot colder than a wooden railing. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:41, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Apparent temperature is used specifically for the weather, not the situation the OP describes. However, the fundamental reasons for the existence of the concept of apparent temperature a probably the same - ie the different rates at which heat is transferred. Mitch Ames (talk) 01:47, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Is "accusee" acceptable?

I very recently wrote at WP:RD/E that allegations of "hacking" may simply be a result of the accusee being more proficient than the accuser. Now, Mitch Ames (talk · contribs) pointed out that the correct term is "accused", and I admit that I made up "accusee", based on similar words like callee. The person being called is "the callee". By that logic, wouldn't the person being accused be the "accusee"? Thanks, decltype (talk) 12:13, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Callee, eh? Oh boy. Maybe we should start talking about the victims of murder as "killees" or "murderees". Or about someone we like or love as a "likee" or a "lovee". Or about cattle that have been slaughtered as "slaughterees", and then eaten as "eatees". Maybe we should start calling our husbands and wives "marriees". Do you see how unproductive this appeal to logic would be? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 12:24, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Of course. Still, callee has somehow become a widely used term in computer science to denote a function being called (and can apparently also be used to refer to a person being called - I didn't know that). decltype (talk) 12:33, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

It's quite common to add the suffix -ee to a transitive verb to make a noun meaning "person being Xed", as in callee. What I find interesting is the less common habit of adding the suffix -ee to an intransitive verb to make a noun meaning "person who Xes", as in standee. It sort of suggests that ergativity has its place even in an accusative language like English. Back to the original question, I'd say accusee would be acceptable if the noun accused didn't already exist; since it does, there's no need to coin a new synonym for it. +Angr 12:44, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Even transitive verbs are sometimes made into agent-nouns by adding -ee, e.g. "attendee". (I think there may be other examples but can't think of any off-hand.) AndrewWTaylor (talk) 13:21, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Technically, shouldn't it be "attender"? Though I don't recall hearing that term. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:49, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

If you were writing an article, you should switch into a more formal dialect and use "accused". If you were writing on a talk page, it makes no difference. People will have no problem understanding you, especially if they know a little French, since accusee is a cognate for accusée. On the other hand, I didn't realize at first that you intended accusee to rhyme with "tree", if that is what you were thinking. — Carl (CBM · talk) 13:40, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

I was about to ask whether this has something to do with French origins, but now I wonder if it has more to do with where the usage first occurred. Something ending with "-ed", such as "the accused" could be short for "the accused one". In contrast, you have "employer" and "employee", and you don't often hear "the employed (one)". Likewise with "caller" and "callee", you don't so much hear the term "the called (one)". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:48, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

We have the word defendant. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:05, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The English suffix "-ee" clearly derives from the French "-é(e)" in the sense that it has been generalised from words like "employee" and "lessee" which were borrowed from French. But it is a slightly productive suffix in English, and gets added to words irrespective of their origins. --ColinFine (talk) 22:53, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

The words are accuser and accused. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 01:09, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

(response to JackofOz). Sorry to be the one to break it to you, but "murderee" had quite a spree more than 100 years ago. New York Times archive 1892. Webster's 1913 edition lists it as someone who has been murdered, but I've also seen it used to describe someone who is the type of person who gets murdered. Wiktonary gives two citations, 1970 and 2001. Granta 25 (1989) has Martin Amis's "The Murderee" on the front cover. For some reason I can't get in to the OED, or I'd give you chapter and verse. And the next thing you know, we'll be calling a person who has been divorced ... a "divorcee". BrainyBabe (talk) 03:28, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I see. (Thinks: Is somebody I see called a "seeee"?) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:24, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Reminds me of my favorite phrase in Manx, where "she will eat" is [eeee ee] Error: {{Lang}}: text has italic markup (help). +Angr 11:39, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Which in turn reminds me of the Cetacean language. ---Sluzzelin talk 13:37, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Michaelhouse

At Cambridge there used to be a college called Michaelhouse. Was it pronounced "Michael House", or "Micklehouse" as in Michaelmas? The Wednesday Island (talk) 15:37, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Since it ceased to exist before the great vowel shift the question is moot: the vowel in "Michael" did not meander to its present strange place in the mouth until later. The equivalent question at the time would have been whether the vowel was long or short (/mi:/ or /mi/ - roughly "mee" or "me"). I don't know if there is any record of how the name was pronounced. I certainly heard it referred to as "Michael house" in Cambridge thirty years ago, but it's unlikely there was any unbroken tradition. --ColinFine (talk) 23:02, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

M/M: Lettering format

Waht does M/M: mean. Since When I apply to a Catholic school in orange county when mail letter home it said on top M/M:ABC then proper locale mailing format.--209.129.85.4 (talk) 20:31, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

That means "Mr. or Mrs.", or, I suppose, Miss, and possibly even Ms. It's used when the gender of the recipient is not known. Comet Tuttle (talk) 21:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Or "Mr. and Mrs./Ms." —— Shakescene (talk) 21:38, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

What's this sentence construction?

Consider these sentences, a and b:

a: The man who first ate an oyster was brave.

b: The man was brave who first ate an oyster.

Is there a term for the sort of construction found in b, where a relative clause follows the verb phrase instead of coming right after the noun it modifies? Also, do most native speakers of English find this construction difficult to parse? (I ask because I am one, and I do.) 69.111.79.27 (talk) 22:51, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

Cleft sentence. --ColinFine (talk) 23:03, 12 January 2010 (UTC)

More generally, I would call it "poetic". You often see sentence construction in poems and sayings and such which are a little unusual. "Frog he would a wooing go." That's almost German-like construction, I think. P.S. Oysters are good. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Although I don't know of experimental examples off the top of my head, I am fairly certain English speakers find the cleft sentence (b) more difficult. For the seminal article on what types of sentences are considered hard to parse, see John Kimball's 1970 "Seven principles of surface structure parsing in natural language". I'm not sure exactly which of the 'principles' is relevant to this one, but it's something more or less along the lines of Minimal Attachment (an amalgamation of several of Kimball's principles) and Right Branching—the idea is that once you've already read "the man was brave" and closed it off (thinking it to be a complete sentence), encountering "who..." and trying to integrate it is difficult. You want to integrate it to the nearest word, but you have to backtrack a ways. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 01:07, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I think the oyster comment is a good illustration of the subtleties of English. Both sentences contain the same basic information. But the first is prosaic and unmemorable, while the second is poetic and catchy. I would say the second one has even more impact if read out loud, because you have to say it a certain way for it to be properly pithy and funny. Inflection something like, "The MAN was BRAVE... who first ate an oy-STER!" The first part with a little enthusiasm, the second part monotone except for emphasizing that last syllable, and ideally with a bit of a smirk on the teller's face. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:42, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

So in summary, I say that although the technical term may be "cleft sentence", the more general way of looking at those sentences is prosaic vs. poetic. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:49, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I suspect the reason these two sentences sound poetic is because they happen to fit the pattern of iambic pentameter. Maybe the second one also sounds a bit foreign, since Romance languages (and Latin) can start normal sentences like that. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:46, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

(b) is not quite iambic pentameter, unless you're saying it in a pretty stilted way. When I say it, it's "the man was brave who first ate an oyster. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 04:58, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

For iambic pentameters, one could say:

The man who first an oyster ate was brave.

The man was brave who first an oyster ate.

-- Wavelength (talk) 06:02, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Describing this as a "cleft sentence" is precise. Describing it as "poetic" is subjective. Clefting, pseudoclefting, topicalization (as in Bugs' example "Frog he would a wooing go") are all cases where the normal sentence structure is disturbed, usually for rhetorical effect. Poetry is one reason why this might be done. --ColinFine (talk) 08:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

"For rhetorical effect", yes. As Malcolm points out indirectly via the content of the link below, it is this effect that makes a phrase or sentence more interesting or "catchy". It's unlikely Yoda would be quoted or imitated so much if he talked the "normal" way. And with the oyster comment, the first way of saying it is mundane, and the second is much more likely to appear in Bartlett's. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:42, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Unreferenced conjecture aside, the construction in question is known as anastrophe. Malcolm XIV (talk) 10:23, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Which sounds like it ought to be the opposite of a catastrophe. +Angr 21:29, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Oh, the iony of it all! ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:46, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

January 13

Application

What is App.?174.3.101.61 (talk) 00:59, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Apparently, apparently. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:19, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Is that, "Apparently, it means apparently", or "It means apparently, apparently"? Aaadddaaammm (talk) 19:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I'm in a generous mood today. Please interpret it in any way that gives you pleasure.  :) -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:46, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Was it ever otherwise Jack? Kittybrewster ☎ 12:10, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Semivowel alternations

What I'm trying to do at our approximant consonant article is show examples where a semivowel alternates with its corresponding vowel. As you can see, I've got examples from Spanish for /i ~ j/ and /u ~ w/, a French one for /y ~ ɥ/, and an American English one for /ɚ ~ ɻ/. These alternations differ from arbitrary pairs of examples because they show a change the occurs upon suffixation. What's missing right now, though, is examples of /ɯ ~ ɰ/ and /ɑ ~ ʕ̞/ alternations. I'm not familiar with languages that have these pairs. Can anyone help? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 05:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

In the Semitic languages I'm somewhat familiar with, a voiced pharyngeal often induces an "a" type coloring in an adjacent vowel, but I don't think a pharyngeal can be usefully said to "alternate" with [a], and I'm not sure what that would really mean... AnonMoos (talk) 06:26, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

An alternation with [a] would mean that when (nonce-affix) -oqe is added to (nonceword) ava, the result would be avʕoqe; the insertion of [ʕ] in hiatus (avaʕoqe or avoʕaqe) would be close enough, I think. Short of that, do you have an example where the addition of an affix triggers this a coloring? — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 06:32, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

I don't know of any language in which an [a]-vowel is transformed into a voiced pharyngeal consonant by a phonological rule, and I wouldn't be surprised if there aren't any. In the Semitic languages, only a restricted subset of consonants are allowed to appear in inflections, and pharyngeals are not in that set (though [h] and the glottal stop are). The typical situation where you get [a] coloring is when a non-[a] vowel appears in a form derived from a consonantal root without pharyngeals, such as "k-t-b" or whatever, while [a] occurs in the corresponding position of the form derived from a consonantal root with a pharyngeal consonant. By the way, in some languages for some purposes, the non-pharyngeal [h] can induce [a]-coloring in an adjacent vowel. AnonMoos (talk) 23:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Portray or depict?

I've been toying with the idea of submitting a move request for List of films portraying paedophilia or sexual abuse of minors. As I see it, the article name should be "List of films depicting paedophilia or sexual abuse of minors". Characters portray, films depict. Is my thinking flawed or would there be general agreement on this point? Maedin\^talk 09:01, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I'd support that, "depict" is more neutral. "Portray" has a slightly arty tone to it. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 09:12, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

"re" case

(silly me, I'd posted this at the humanities desk)

Is there a name for a grammatical case equivalent to 'regarding, concerning, about'? As in a special case for X in "I have a message about X". kwami (talk) 10:54, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

The prepositional case performs this function in some languages, but not in English. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 10:57, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't mean in in English. But in place of a preposition: a form "message John-[re]" which would mean "a message re John". Which case would that "-[re]" be? I don't know that there even is a name, which is why I'm asking here.

Or it might be restricted to linking a noun to a predicate, something like "to fear X, be worthy of X, to talk of X, think of X", etc, but specifically with a relationship of "concerning X", not also as a general dative or ablative. Kinda like a topic marker, but a case rather than setting up a topic-comment construction. kwami (talk) 18:05, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

List of grammatical cases#Morphosyntactic alignment lists Oblique case and

List of grammatical cases#Relation lists Ablative case. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:05, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks, but I doubt it's something we have a dedicated article on. At least, there's nothing in our case template, or on our list (closest maybe is causal, but that only covers some of the functions). kwami (talk) 20:32, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Apart from case grammar, the available cases and their names and functions vary from language to language. While there is a degree of commonality, especially between related languages, the answer to questions like this will often vary from language to language. Offhand I can't think of a language which expresses this with just a case inflection, (but somebody will no doubt reply with an obvious instance), so there will be little reason to have come up with a name for one. --ColinFine (talk) 21:08, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

My Latin is extremely rusty, but isn't there a special use for Dative where it is like "X in reference to Y"? Falconus^{p t c} 02:51, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

There probably is. But I'm looking for the word you'd use for a case that is dedicated to such a role, not a more general case that can also be used that way. kwami (talk) 04:29, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I think you're looking for the "dative of reference", which indicates who benefits or loses from an action. Ecce dedi vobis omnem herbam afferentem semen super terram... ut sint vobis in escam. Look, I give you all seedbearing plants on the earth... to be to you for food. Marnanel (talk) 20:08, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Ilaksh, a case-heavy constructed language, uses a "referential case", though this would probably be an invented term for that purpose and not an established term in linguistics. -- The Great Gavini 16:57, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, thanks. That's along the right lines, though I was hoping to find s.t. in a natural language. It seems rather odd, with the variety of cases in the world, not to have this. kwami (talk) 22:50, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Pronounciation rule?

Is there a rule as to when the second syllable gets the emphasis? Kittybrewster ☎ 20:18, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

In English? kwami (talk) 20:33, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

English probably has more exceptions than it has rules, but unabridged dictionaries sometimes have information like that; patterns to look for. There are some examples in the previous section. And "example" itself is an example. But that might just be coincidental, as it's often the next-to-last syllable that gets emphasized. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:57, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

(EC)Such a rule does not exist in any language, to the best of my knowledge. Some have a rule that the final syllable is stressed, some the penultimate, and others the first, but none that specify the second syllable. Why? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 20:58, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

There are languages (a lot of Native American languages, for example) where the second syllable is stressed if the first syllable is light, but the first syllable is stressed if it's heavy. I don't know of any language where the second syllable is always stressed regardless of syllable weight. +Angr 21:27, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Languages with basic second-syllable stress are certainly uncommon,. but there have been claimed to be a few, such as Southern Paiute and Dakota.... AnonMoos (talk) 22:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

When you record a record, the verb form has the stress on the second syllable, while the noun form has the stress on the first syllable. --Kjoonlee 04:15, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

And this is true for most (though not all) English disyllables. A verb has final emphasis, a noun has penultimate. Steewi (talk) 05:49, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

See Initial-stress-derived noun. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:09, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

In English, emphasising the second syllable usually makes a sentence sound weird. However, in some languages such as the Mayan language, the second syllable is often emphasized, though not always, sometimes it is the last syllable. For example, Chichen Itza. ~AH1^(TCU) 00:24, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Arabic Translation

Can someone who speaks Arabic tell me what the following means: منيح منيح :) أنا مصري.

Thank you! Luthinya (talk) 21:14, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Not sure what منيح means (someone's name, maybe? what's the context?), but انا مصري means "I'm Egyptian." Wrad (talk) 21:28, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Google translate doesn't have a meaning specifically for منيح, but it says the trisyllable m-n-H has a meaning of "grant" (like the verb to grant something). Steewi (talk) 05:52, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

"I'm Egyptian" is correct. منیح (manih) means generous; it should be a name here. --Omidinist (talk) 06:01, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Are ships feminine in American as they are in English ? And why ?

Hello my dear Pytias. Please excuse my poor English, I'm French. I've some questions about the sexe of ships.

1) An English man explain me it's useless trying to understand why ships are femenine in English, but anyway if you have ideas about that I'm eager to get new ideas on that.

2) MAIN QUESTION : A friend of mine who says she is bilingual American-French because she had lived in the USA from 0 to the age of 8 didn't know that ships are feminine in English. Would that mean that in American ships are not always feminine ? ( In fact I think she shows off when she proclaims she's bilingual )

3) What about other English speakers : Indians, South Africans, and so on...

4) Do you use feminine for all kinds of boats, rowing boats, sailing boats, boats for children

P.S.: I wrote Pytias at the beginning of my letter because the equivalent of the reference desk in the WP:fr is "L'Oracle" referring to Delphi.--82.216.68.31 (talk) 23:31, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Traditionally, ships have been referred to as "she". This is, however, changing. The current recommendation of the Chicago Manual of Style (CMS), which is widely used in the U.S., says "When a pronoun is used to refer to a vessel, the neuter it (rather than she or her) is generally preferred." As for the origins of the tradition of using "she" in referring to ships, CMS says "Pronouns enhance personification when a feminine or masculine pronoun is used as if the antecedent represented a female or male person (as was traditionally done, for example., when a ship or other vessel was referred to as she or her.)"

So the choice is she or it, and it remains a personal choice, with people advocating for their personal preferences with varying degrees of vigor. On the one hand is tradition; on the other, gender equality. Take your choice, and you've chosen your pronoun. - Nunh-huh 23:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

P.S. since you seem to want help with English, it may not be too offensive for me to add the following points:

• You probably meant Pythias, an allusion which unfortunately too many English speakers won't recognize, but which is still nice :)
• It is probably better to refer to a ship's "gender" rather than "sex" - Nunh-huh 23:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

You probably meant the plural of Pythia, not Pythias, Aristotle's wife. — Kpalion^(talk) 22:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

(EC)It seems to me that two things are true for English usage of she for vessels.

1. Not everybody uses this pronoun, especially people unfamiliar with boats or sailing.
2. The usage is not exactly parallel to grammatical gender featured in Romance languages like French. It seems more like an attempt at anthropomorphizing the ship, giving it human characteristics and projecting a certain will to it. I suspect that only named ships are referred to as she.

This is coming more from someone with minimal experience with boating, so perhaps others could substantiate my claims more. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 23:45, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Seagoers are indeed far more likely to insist on she, and it is indeed for anthropomorphological purposes....for whatever reason, sailors are more likely to conceptualize their relationship with a ship as with a woman than with a man.

Seagoers are also more likely to insist on a "boat"/"ship" distinction, in which the former are small vessels, and the latter large. Some define a ship as a vessel large enough to carry a boat. Others might claim that ships are seagoing vessels, while boats are not. These folk would refer to "ships" as "she", but would be a bit less likely to refer to "boats" as "she". But these distinctions are not observed in the everyday speech of landlubbers. - Nunh-huh 23:51, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

Is it true, as per Rex Harrison in The Ghost and Mrs. Muir (film) that "sailors" is "a landlubber's term" and that they prefer to be called "seamen"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:44, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Alas, I cannot say if Rex speaks true or no. But generations of punsters would be thankful if he is correct. - Nunh-huh 02:03, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Well, that took over an hour. Where was everybody? As you may know, "seamen" are men who work at sea, while "semen" is from the Latin for "seed". Anyway, I'm curious to know, but I suspect no one here knows. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:42, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Bells are "she" to ringers, at least in the phrase "Look to; treble's going; she's gone." But I believe that this too is anthropomorphism. Marnanel (talk) 00:26, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Are all bells considered feminine? I've only heard it in that phrase (and occasionally with "treble" replaced by "two" when there are insufficient ringers to ring all the bells). I wouldn't be surprised if the tenor was considered masculine. Big Ben has a man's name, after all. --Tango (talk) 00:51, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

That may not matter. The USS Ronald Reagan (CVN-76) has a man's name, and is nonetheless "she". - Nunh-huh 02:27, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I liked the Pytias reference - perhaps the RD is being referred to as "da Big Cheese"? As for sailing vessels, I'm told that my grandfather (who sailed with the Merchant Navy all his life) averred that only two types of vessel could be referred to as "he"; gravy boats and mail boats.Tonywalton ^Talk 00:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

To my (American) ear, calling any vehicle by "she" is acceptable, but not mandatory. That includes mainly boats and ships, but also airplanes, spaceships, and, rarely, cars. The only vehicle I can think of where "she" is definitely out of place would be a train. Falconus^{p t c} 02:48, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Why leave out trains? Clarityfiend (talk) 03:17, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

It just sounds wrong to me, though I guess with the actual locomotive it works fine. Falconus^{p t c} 03:43, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

She'll be coming 'round the mountain when she comes... Buddy431 (talk) 03:49, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Okay, point taken. Falconus^{p t c} 04:45, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

How does a train drive six white horses? --LarryMac | Talk 13:26, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

To my (Australian) ear, it's much the same: 'she' or 'it' - but never 'he'. Funny that - another example of utterly unconscionable discrimination against maleness in all its forms. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 03:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah, really! When do we get our turn to be thought of as property? -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:24, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Warning, Will Robinson! In the current atmosphere, do not attempt to burn your boxers in a plane. - Nunh-huh 04:27, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I (Texan) drive an old Ford Econoline van, and it's got lettering on the side, left over from its previous career as a catering van. Since it's got a name, which everyone uses to talk about it, it's already a bit anthropomorphized. Thus, a lot of people - American people - when they ask me how (or whether) the van is running, refer to it as a "she". I think they're assuming that I do the same thing ship-captains do, in thinking of the vehicle as a woman, but I don't. I consider it an "it", and I think of myself as progressive-minded when it comes to gender issues. -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:17, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Which is why I find it so weird when men who already have a relationship with their pickups that verges on romantic, add testicles to it. Weirdly homoerotic. But maybe that explains the embrace of the term "teabagger" by some of the tea party folks... Guettarda (talk) 04:33, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

They do what? O_o

As for my van, there are two stickers on the back, where you would expect sex parts. One is a band sticker for Ween, with their name emblazoned over their phallic-looking mascot, the demon-god Boognish. Next to that is a sticker from a feminist skit-comedy troupe that used to operate out of Austin. Their name was "Viva La Vulva", and the sticker says "Vulva", under the traditional woman silhouette that indicates women's restrooms. That way, I can point out to anyone who seems confused that it's got both boy and girl parts, and is hence an "it" (and probably disqualified from Olympic competition). -GTBacchus^(talk) 04:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Truck nuts. I thought you said you live in Texas?  :) Surely they're as bad an Oklahomans... Guettarda (talk) 05:24, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Yeah... I live in a college town, and I guess I've got selective blind spots. Growing up here, they're useful.

As a Texan, I can't accept "as bad as Oklahomans" though. We're badder. :D -GTBacchus^(talk) 05:30, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Someone once told me, "A Texan is a wetback who never made it to Oklahoma." :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Careful, it might be wabbit season 'round here. Texas is home to the world's largest fleet of pickup trucks with gun racks, and we're on the lookout for varmints!

There's an anecdote (likely aprocryphal) about a county in West Texas that used to have a law against driving around drunk shooting guns. Drunk driving was ok, shooting while driving is of course fine, and drunk shooting is good times. All three though? That's just irresponsible. -GTBacchus^(talk) 06:59, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

It shouldn't surprise you that there's a work of art that explores part of the subject mentioned in your first paragraph, starting at about the 2 1/2 minute mark.[4] Be aware that this film was made during the War. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:19, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Getting back to the original question, as others have said, the use of she for ships is optional and is not the same as grammatical gender in French, but is instead a matter of personification. I can well imagine that an 8-year-old child whose family were not sailors or otherwise maritime would never have heard that some English speakers personify ships as women. Those people who do personify ships might also personify small sailboats, but to personify toy boats or rowboats, I think, would be considered humorous. Finally, I don't think that there is much difference between British English, American English, and other varieties of English on this question. I think that the personification of ships in all countries is optional and mostly practiced by people closely involved with ships and boats. Marco polo (talk) 15:27, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

See Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Archive (ships as "she"). -- Wavelength (talk) 21:17, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

American English is not a distinct language from English, albiet a dialect, and English words do not automatically have any masculine or feminine identities, as they do in French. Usually, we refer only to humans and animals as male or female. Ships and veichles are not the only objects sometimes referred to as "she", some countries are also referred to as "she" or "it" (although some countries are self-described as the Fatherland), and hurricanes are often referred to as "he" or "she" depending on the name of the storm, but usually as "it". There are very few neuter nouns in French, but nouns in English are usually always neuter, meaning they have no identity applied to them. Ships often have a "gender" or "sex", but only by tradition. En anglais, les noms ne sont pas masculin ni féminin, parce qu'en français et espagnol les noms ont une sexe mais pas en anglais. ~AH1^(TCU) 00:18, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

January 14

Numbers in Hindi

The Hindi version of 'Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? is on TV at the moment, and the two contestants have just won 640,000 Rpees, but it came up on screen as '6,40,000'. Why would this be? --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 00:04, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

See Decimal separator#Examples of use. -- Wavelength (talk) 00:12, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah! Excellent! Thanks! That explains also why it's called Crorepati. --KageTora - (影虎) (Talk?) 00:14, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Indian numbering system might also help. Unfortunately, they decided not to use this system for the movie Slumdog Millionaire, when it's the only system that would have actually been used. Bʌsʌwʌʟʌ ^{Speak up!} 00:24, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

They didn't for the printed numbers, but even the subtitles talked about crores. I was pleasantly surprised by that. Steewi (talk) 06:04, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

"house" as a building and the family too

I have just submitted a hook at Template talk:Did you know, reading:

... that The Wodehouse, a country house near Wombourne, has twice produced individuals significant in British musical history?

The first comment this received is that it isn't idiomatic usage. But I mean "house" as in "the house of Capulet" as well as the bricks and mortar. So two questions:

a) Am I right, or is that usage now archaic?

b)Since it doesn't matter whether I am right or not if the "Did you know" team don't like it, can you suggest a better phrasing? BrainyBabe (talk) 03:44, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

As "the house of Capulet" actually were named "Capulet", whereas "Wodehouse" is specifically the name of the building, and the family residing therein is named "Hellier", I find using "Wodehouse" to refer to the family to be odd. If you were referring to the family, I'd probably say "the house of Hellier". A better phrasing might be

... that the families living in The Wodehouse, a country house near Wombourne, has twice produced individuals significant in British musical history?

with families, as "more than once the family has died out" -- 70.90.187.65 (talk) 04:52, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

"the family ... has" or "families ... have" depending on the facts. --ColinFine (talk) 08:34, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Some people named "Wodehouse" are probably originally named after Woodwoses... AnonMoos (talk) 09:34, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I have to say that it's quite bizarre that that article links to Galton–Watson process in the lede. Marnanel (talk) 19:53, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Because twice the family became extinct, as genealogists would have it (i.e. the men died "without issue" -- no legitimate offspring). Women didn't count, because if they married they took their husband's name and if they didn't marry they weren't allowed to procreate. The first few sentences of the Galton–Watson process mention "Francis Galton's statistical investigation of the extinction of family names.[...] There was concern amongst the Victorians that aristocratic surnames were becoming extinct". BrainyBabe (talk) 00:07, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

latín hispánico

What is the RAE referring to in its entry for 'estepa' when it says "Del latín hispánico stippa"? I've never heard of 'Hispanic Latin' before. 70.162.3.214 (talk) 06:39, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

I imagine it means the Latin spoken in Hispania during the days of the Roman Empire, i.e. the variety of Vulgar Latin that the Iberian Romance languages are descended from. +Angr 06:48, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

What is the RAE? Woogee (talk) 22:50, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Real Academia Española. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:18, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Fear liath

How do you pronounce Fear Liath? --Dr Dima (talk) 09:44, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Approximately "fair Leah". In IPA, [fɛɾ ʎiə]. +Angr 10:38, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks! --Dr Dima (talk) 22:21, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

He came home to find a friend and his girlfriend using his bed

From context is evident whose girlfriend it was. However, how could such sentences be expressed without ambivalence? 80.58.205.99 (talk) 12:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

With a system of grammatical switch reference or with separate reflexive pronouns as in Scandinavian, German and Dutch. In English they can only be disambiaguated by adding extra words such as "own" e.g. "He found his friend and his own girlfriend" would make it clear that the girlfriend was not the friend's.·Maunus·ƛ· 12:40, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

(e/c) To answer this we need to know whose girlfriend it is. Is she the girlfriend of the "he" or of the friend? If it's the former, then you can say "He came home to find his girlfriend and his friend using his bed." If it's the latter, then it's harder to remove the ambiguity. You might have to say something clumsy like "He came home to find a friend of his, with his (the friend's) girlfriend, using his bed." --Richardrj ^{talk email} 12:46, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

We don't really need to know that since he is basically asking what possibilities there is to disambiguate between the two possible readings. ·Maunus·ƛ· 13:00, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

OK then you can strike out the first sentence of my reply. The rest of it answers the question. --Richardrj ^{talk email} 13:11, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

The best way to avoid ambiguity in English in a case like this is to replace ambiguous pronouns with nouns:

1) He came home to find his girlfriend and his friend using his bed. (In this case the pronouns are not ambiguous.)

2) He came home to find his friend and his friend's girlfriend using his bed.

Marco polo (talk) 15:17, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Or somewhat more formally:

2) He came home to find his friend and the latter's girlfriend using his bed.

— Kpalion^(talk) 15:40, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Of course if his friend is female, it's clear whose girlfriend was in bed with her. +Angr 15:56, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Errrr, no. Not at all. --LarryMac | Talk 17:08, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

No? "He came home to find a friend_fem. and his girlfriend using his bed." Unless the "his" is looking outside of the sentence for its coreferent, it can only refer back to the subject "he". +Angr 17:26, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

right, lost sight of the initial question, as sometimes happens. --LarryMac | Talk 17:35, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

'...to find his friend and his friend's girlfriend...' is also ambiguous. Is it the friend's girlfriend, or is it the girlfriend of the friend's friend? --KageTora - (影虎) (A word...?) 16:02, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Or indeed the girlfriend of another friend of the original "He". I suppose you'd have to say 'his friend and that (or another) friend's girlfriend...' AndrewWTaylor (talk) 17:05, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Have we considered that she could be the girlfriend of his friend and his other friend? :) Marnanel (talk) 18:55, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

We should note that the ownership of the bed is also ambiguous: his male friend could be his flatmate. Ian Spackman (talk) 18:34, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

It is also not clear how many people are using the bed, or which ones: ‘He came home to find his friend, and [to find] his girlfiend using his bed’. Or indeed, ‘He came home to find a friend and his girlfriend, [by] using his bed [as his means of transportation].’ Ian Spackman (talk) 19:16, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

It is true that the sentences I constructed do not rule out the ambiguities suggested here. However, I think that in English there is an implicit understanding that pronouns refer to the person most recently mentioned in the discourse, unless otherwise specified. Therefore, while those sentences are theoretically ambiguous, I think that their meaning is clear and unambiguous in practice for most native speakers of English, assuming these sentences stand alone. Also, unless the context indicates otherwise, a native speaker of English would not interpret the sentence to mean that anyone was using the bed for transportation, since that is not a normal use of a bed. (The mere use of the word "girlfriend", with its sexual connotations, would lead an English speaker to assume that the bed is being used for sex unless otherwise specified.) Of course, if the sentence does not stand alone, the context could change its meaning in any number of ways. Marco polo (talk) 19:28, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

It's not ambiguous in practice, because of real-world knowledge, but there's still a formal ambiguity. (I think the canonical example is "I saw a man on the road wearing a hat". English speakers will puzzle over this if you tell them it's ambiguous, but only because their real-world knowledge will not admit the concept of a road wearing a hat.) Marnanel (talk) 19:58, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Have we considered "He came home to find his girlfriend and his friend using his bed" versus "He came home to find his friend, whose girlfriend was with him in his bed"? Marnanel (talk) 20:01, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Indeed. Without further explanation we have no real sure knowledge of in what way the bed was being used.--KageTora - (影虎) (A word...?) 22:27, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Equi-"height"?

Is there any adjective meaning "of the same height"? Something like "equidistant" only meaning equally tall instead of equally distant. 96.244.43.203 (talk) 19:25, 14 January 2010 (UTC)Indubitably

There is the Latin "aequialtus" (not a classical word, but Renaissance/neo-Latin). In Greek there is apparently "isohypses"; that leads me to the English word "isohypse" which is a redirect to contour line. Adam Bishop (talk) 21:36, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

There is the less specific word commensurate. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:45, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

In Esperanto, new words can easily be formed from existing roots (see Esperanto vocabulary#Word formation). Therefore, we have the following derived adjectives.

• samalta ("of or having the same height")
• samlarĝa ("of or having the same width")
• samlonga ("of or having the same length")
• sampeza ("of or having the same weight")
• samgranda ("of or having the same size")
• samvalora ("of or having the same value")
• samtemperatura ("of or having the same temperature")
• samlatituda ("of or having the same latitude")
• samlongituda ("of or having the same longitude")
• samlingva ("of or having the same language")
• samproksima ("of or having the same nearness")

-- Wavelength (talk) 17:08, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Japanese IME on Vista

OK, not necessarily a language question, but I figure I've more chance of getting someone who uses the Microsoft IME language bar seeing this question here than on the Computing RefDesk, so I'm posting here. Is there any way to switch between English Input and Japanese Input using a keyboard shortcut? The method I have been using for the last few years is unsatisfactory. Cheers! --KageTora - (影虎) (A word...?) 21:41, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you have a Japanese made PC? Those usually have an extra key (labeled 半/全 if memory serves me, between the ESC key and F1) that changes input modes by pressing ALT+<said key> (or was it CTRL? wait, I think there was another separate key between ALT and CTRL... Anywho, it's there, somewhere...). If not, I'm not sure a shortcut is possible, unless you have a compwiz friend who can create a MSWord macro or sth for you. Me, two laptops ago my laptop was a Japanese-made, and I had to use awkward MSWord shortcuts for "š", "č" and "ž" (rather common in my language, unheard of on a Japanese keyboard) when I translated a 700 page book, so I feel your pain :/ TomorrowTime (talk) 22:26, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Ha! Cheers! The PC I am using here is British, so, no. My Japanese WinXP laptop has the key you mention, of course, but I'm asking about this PC. Sorry, I should have clarified that, and that's why I came back here just now, before seeing your answer. :) --KageTora - (影虎) (A word...?) 22:34, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

If the Japanese IME is similar to the Korean IME, then it would have a Japanese input mode and a plain QWERTY input mode, at least. Instead of switching from JA input to QWERTY input, you could switch from the Japanese IME to the English IME, by installing them both and pressing Alt-Shift. If you weren't using that already, that is. --Kjoonlee 23:24, 14 January 2010 (UTC)

Neat, thanks for that. TomorrowTime (talk) 06:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

And to answer the original question, I think Alt-CapsLock and Ctrl-CapsLock might work. --Kjoonlee 05:20, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

January 15

Spanish subjunctive tense

I know that the subjunctive tense in Spanish is used for hopes, desires, doubts, emotions, but am confused about the use in two particular examples:

Me gusta que ella sepa la verdad.

Es imposible que yo sirva la comida a las ocho.

To me, they both seem definitive. Am I missing some usage? Grsz¹¹ 04:57, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

In the first example, using the subjunctive implies to me that you're not sure that she knows the truth, i.e. there's a situation where she might know (and you like that she knows), but it's possible that she didn't find out. In the second example, you're talking a) about a future event - it's not yet eight o'clock, and b) an event that the sentence has described as impossible. An impossible event also merites the subjunctive. Steewi (talk) 05:46, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

See Subjunctive mood#The subjunctive in Spanish. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:48, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

THE WORD CELTIC

WHY HAS THE FOOTBALL TEAM CELTIC AND THE GROUP OF PEOPLE CELTS AS IN CELTIC'S HAVE THE SAME SPELL BUT ARE PRONOUNCED DIFFERENTLY

YVONNE —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.232.133 (talk) 05:11, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

See Names of the Celts#Pronunciation. Grsz¹¹ 05:19, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The natural way to pronounce an English word starting with CE is like it were SE. My old Webster's indicates "seltic" as the preferred, and "keltic" as the British pronunciation; but that was 1960, and as the article notes, "keltic" is heard more and more often when used in reference to the Celts. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Ah, those Celts and their annoying spells... Seriously though, how are those two pronounced? If anything, I'd pronounce them both with "s". Which of the two is pronounced with a "k"? TomorrowTime (talk) 06:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The group of people. I'm not sure what's governed the variation. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 06:51, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

As the linked article says, the /k/ pronunciation was formerly used only by scholars, but has been gaining ground everywhere except in the popular field of sports clubs. --ColinFine (talk) 08:18, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes. Though that doesn't explain why. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 08:39, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Perhaps scholars were more influenced by Greek Κελτοί and German Kelten. Back in the 19th century and early 20th century it was common for English-speaking scholars to spell Kelt and Keltic with a K, too. +Angr 09:54, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

I prefer pronouncing the word the same way as the basketball team. The Big Book of Beastly Mispronunciations recommends pronouncing it like an 's' when it's spelled "Celtic", and pronouncing it like a 'k' when it's spelled "Keltic". Paul Davidson (talk) 11:02, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Those who, like me, identify as members of the Celtic community, virtually universally call themselves "kelts", not "selts". That is our right, and it behoves others to respect that. As for football teams and the like, they can call themselves whatever they like as long as they don't purport to represent the mainstream pronunciation. Those transliterators who gave us the C spelling where the K version was preferable also stuffed up words formed from kephalos, which are usually spelt -ceph- and consequently pronounced "sef". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 11:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

That's probably why we also say "bi-sycle" rather than "bi-kycle", yes? Pronunciations evolve. I'm reminded of something Will Cuppy said about Attila the Hun: "Attila does not rhyme with vanilla, as it did in my day. It's thought that if the first syllable is stressed, things will turn out better somehow." :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:15, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The Boston Celtics also use the 's' sound. 67.51.38.51 (talk) 16:33, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Is Names of the Celts#Pronunciation supposed to read "the initial ‹c› can be realised either as /k/ or /k/" - the two look identical to me! /s/ is referenced in the next paragraph, maybe it should be one of them (which would make sense to me). - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 14:41, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

That mistake was made in this edit:[5] It was corrected about 7 minutes after you posted. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:08, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Oops! — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 20:53, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

I think I'm right in saying that there is no "soft C" in any of the Celtic Languages. Alansplodge (talk) 17:27, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

RE CELTIC

THANKS TO ALL WHO ANSWERED MY QUESTIONS ON WHY CELTIC AND CELTIC ARE SPELT THE SAME BUT PRONOUNCED DIFFERENTLY THANKS AGAIN —Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.145.235.214 (talk) 14:22, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

How is this persons name spelled?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_8451000/8451264.stm At about 24 seconds in, how would that persons name be spelt? The other name mentioned, at about 2.21, sounds as though it would be spelt Roy Baumaster to me. Thanks. 78.147.233.120 (talk) 14:43, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

If you Google for Stanford "fruit salad" "chocolate cake", the first hit will tell you that the person's name is Baba Shiv. Deor (talk) 15:20, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. The other guy appears to be Roy Baumeister. 78.147.233.120 (talk) 15:52, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Spelled or spelt?

Are they both correct, or is one to be preferred to the other? 78.147.233.120 (talk) 14:44, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

"Spelt" is not used in American English (as a past tense of spell), but I believe it is perfectly acceptable in British English. I don't know which is preferred. --LarryMac | Talk 14:50, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

The Guardian's style guide draws some kind of distinction as to what circumstances their writers should use each one in: she spelled it out for him: "the word is spelt like this" [6]. Marnanel (talk) 15:05, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Anecdotally, at least, in American English the use of a trailing "t" instead of "ed" seems to be associated with verbs whose present tense has a long "e" sound and the past tense has a short "e" sound: deal, dealt; feel, felt; keep, kept; kneel,knelt; sleep,slept; weep, wept; etc. However, there's also dwell, dwelt - although that's not such a common verb anymore. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:13, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

With weep, keep, and sleep, the voicelessness is triggered by the /p/, though you may be right that the orthographic use of t is associated with the vowels. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɹ̠ˤʷɛ̃ɾ̃ˡi]} 19:12, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Also dream, dreamt. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:59, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Some of those words we hear both ways. I've heard "dreamed" frequently, "dreamt" is maybe more poetic. And maybe I've heard kneeled. But not feeled, keeped, etc. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 20:40, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

There's also Spelt, the grain. 67.51.38.51 (talk) 16:35, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Leaped, leapt, lept. But not sleeped or steept or stept. —— Shakescene (talk) 20:59, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Lept? Really? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:25, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Leapt, actually. Leaped is given as the preferred, and leapt is also given. And of course it's pronounced lept. English drives non-native speakers crazy. It's like a language with its own built-in IAR. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:17, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Also, pwn becomes "pwned" or "pwnt". ~AH1^(TCU) 23:54, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

One wonders why words like "slipped", "slapped", "slopped", "stopped", "kissed", "missed", "bossed", et al, which are pronounced with a final /t/, are not spelt "slipt", "slapt", "slopt", "stopt", "kist", "mist", "bost" etc. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 00:13, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Of your list, at least two ("slopt" and "stopt") have been used, with "stopt" having been common into the nineteenth century. Algebraist 00:20, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Antithetical opposites

Consider this pair of sentences:

While both are notable, she is far/much more widely known than he is

While both are notable, he is far/much less widely known than she is.

There, 'more' can be converted to its normal opposite 'less', and vice-versa, without breaching idiom. That's because 'more' and 'less' are being used to create the comparative of the adverb 'widely' (or possibly of the adjective 'widely(-)known'; let's not quibble).

But compare:

While both are notable, she is far/much better known than he is, with

While both are notable, he is far/much <???> known than she is.

We don't use the word 'worse' in this situation, but 'less'. And if we started out with 'less', it would not become 'more', but 'better'. In my idiolect, anyway.

Are there other cases where the standard opposite (good/bad, better/worse, more/less ...) simply does not work and we have to know what the idiomatic expression is? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 20:55, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

"Lesser" known, probably, although that fits better with "greater". "Not as well" known. Which brings up, do you feel "good" or do you feel "well"? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:21, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Do you really say so-and-so is far or much lesser known than someone else? That sounds pretty wrong to me. Without the 'much', lesser would fit ok. But once the 'much' enters the picture, it would have to be something weird like "much more lesser known' to be able to use 'lesser' at all. No? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 22:49, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

Maybe "much less known" or "lesser known". Less likely "much lesser known", as that's like saying something is "more better" than something else. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:31, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

speech act theory; perlocutionary act

is a Perlocutionary act (or p. effect?) identical with the intended effect or with the actual effect of the utterance? A perlocutionary act (or perlocutionary effect) is a speech act, as viewed at the level of its psychological consequences in Perlocutionary act seems to mean actual effect. However, I seem to remember that someone important (Searle?) meant rather intended effect. What is the common use? --92.225.74.11 (talk) 22:56, 15 January 2010 (UTC)

January 16

Please explain this simile

Sir Henry Wooton's famous description of the fire at the Globe Theatre in 1613 contains the line: "...it kindled inwardly, and ran round like a train, consuming within less than an hour the whole house to the very ground." What does "train" refer to? There were no railway trains then, and wagon trains and the trains of dresses don't move quickly. 87.194.239.235 (talk) 00:12, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

"Train", as in the train of a dress, was used for the tail/trail of a comet or meteor, for example in Hamlet: As starres with traines of fier and dewes of blood, Disasters in the sunne.

But per the OED, at the time a "train" was also "a trap or snare for catching wild animals; also fig." (this sense from the French traïne "ruse") They give, from 1624, I seek my peace, but seek my peace in vain; For every way's a trap: each path's a train. And from 1697, Caught in the Train which thou thyself hast laid.

Another word spelled "train" (apparently from the Italian traina) is "A line of gunpowder or other combustible substance laid so as to convey fire to a mine or charge for the purpose of exploding it. Also fig." From 1548, The Frenchmen [...] made traynes of gunpouder from strete to strete, and from 1677, A Mine was made, and Train was laid hereby for blowing up the Gospel it self.

kwami (talk) 00:21, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Is this the original meaning of a "trained" animal, i.e. one that was captured? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:29, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

No, per the OED, as a verb that word "train" means to lure with bait, as in falconry. (But in figurative usage the two nouns "train" were often conflated, so perhaps the verbs were too?) The other "train" as a verb meant to drag > to lead > to train a vine or branch > to train an apprentice > to train an animal. kwami (talk) 00:40, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

So then, is the idea that a trap snaps shut quickly? Woogee (talk) 00:30, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Could be a snare that encircles. Or [edit conflict on additional defs] a trail of "fire" like that of a meteor, or like a burning line of gunpowder. The last would certainly convey the idea of speed, as would the second if it evoked the image of a meteor rather than of a comet. The first would convey the idea of entrapment—I don't know which was intended. Speed seems likely, but given the context, were people trapped inside as well?

And a "train" could also mean the gait or course of a horse, which could also work. kwami (talk) 00:40, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your answers. I think that the gunpowder meaning is best, but the other possibilities are very interesting. 87.194.239.235 (talk) 12:49, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Dutch help

Can I get a translation of the description for this image? Thanks. bibliomaniac15 03:54, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Javaanse jongen, Gangsar, poseert met een leguaan van 1 meter 77 hoog en een gewicht van twaalf kilogram, Ngandong

Javanese boy, Gangsar, posing with an iguana [sic] 1 meter 77 long and weighing twelve kilograms, Ngandong

kwami (talk) 05:13, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Thanks very much. I've added it to Commons. bibliomaniac15 06:27, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Why the "[sic]" after "iguana"? Don't you believe it is an iguana? +Angr 16:40, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

It's pretty big. It could be a monitor lizard. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 17:42, 16 January 2010 (UTC)

Iguanas live in the Americas and the Caribbean, not in Java. Also, it doesn't have the frilly head. --Kjoonlee 01:46, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The description of the water monitor on Wikipedia seems to fit very well with the description of the lizard in the photo. Even if it's not a water monitor, it could very well be a monitor lizard, I guess. --Kjoonlee 02:11, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I assume Bibliomaniac had no problem with "1 meter 77", but we don't say that with metric units in English where I come from, even though we do say "1 foot 7" for 1 foot + 7 inches = 19 inches. So to complete the translation to English: here the meaning is obviously 1 m + 77 cm, which is 1.77 m. --Anonymous, 19:27 UTC, January 16, 2010.

January 17

Question/answer

What is the difference in comparison between "the original question remains unanswered" and "the original answer remains unquestioned"? Are they opposites, anecdotes, analogies etc. or something else? Thanks. ~AH1^(TCU) 01:55, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

"The original question remains unanswered" means "the question has never been answered since it was first posed;" "The original answer remains unquestioned" means "the question was posed, and then answered, and that answer has never since been challenged as false." Was this the response you wanted, or am I misunderstanding the question? Xenon54 / talk / 02:04, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

If no one had responded to your question, the first quoted statement would be true and the second quoted statement would be meaningless because there would have been no response. Now that someone has responded, the first quoted statement is no longer true, and the second quoted statement remains true because I am not challenging it. It would become false if someone disagrees with Xenon. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:08, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Yes, I'm trying to compare whether making one true falsifies the other. By the way was this an unintentional self-reference? ~AH1^(TCU) 02:40, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

Let logician Charles Lutwidge Dodgson explore the issue

`Then you should say what you mean,' the March Hare went on.

`I do,' Alice hastily replied; `at least--at least I mean what I say--that's the same thing, you know.'

`Not the same thing a bit!' said the Hatter. `You might just as well say that "I see what I eat" is the same thing as "I eat what I see"!'

`You might just as well say,' added the March Hare, `that "I like what I get" is the same thing as "I get what I like"!'

`You might just as well say,' added the Dormouse, who seemed to be talking in his sleep, `that "I breathe when I sleep" is the same thing as "I sleep when I breathe"!'

`It is the same thing with you,' said the Hatter...

-- AnonMoos (talk) 08:45, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

True or false?

"Self-references make everything permissible". Or is the statement itself a self-reference? ~AH1^(TCU) 01:56, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

First, translate that axiom. What is it trying to say? It doesn't make obvious sense to me. However, I got D's in literature. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:02, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

I've added a link to "self-reference". ~AH1^(TCU) 02:41, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

"the well"

why is a part of the courtroom near the judges bench called "the well"? many judges prohibit lawyers from " entering the well". —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.185.155.74 (talk) 02:57, 17 January 2010 (UTC)

The omissio of "to"

Why not "We ought not to suppose that love is necessary for marriage," instead of "We ought not suppose that love is necessary for marriage"?

--68.219.47.248 (talk) 09:28, 17 January 2010 (UTC)