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August 4

Although

Does a comma come after although.e.g.

Although, some have thought it was nine feet tall.

No, it doesn't. Note, however, that removing the comma makes this a sentence fragment, meaning something more has to be added to make it a sentence (e.g. "Although some have thought it was nine feet tall, modern scholarship has shown that..."). If you don't want to add any more detail, replace "Although" with "However" and keep the comma. Ziggurat 00:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Although it's nonstandard, "although" is sometimes used instead of "however" in conversational English:

"Although... some have thought it was nine feet tall. " --π! 00:28, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

True; from the content, I presumed you were asking about academic written English (i.e. fairly formal). Ziggurat 00:32, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, is Caeser, Augustus, or Emperor captiized when refering to a person, not in a name title.

Caesar and Augustus both have a good case for being proper names, which means you would capitalise them. Emperor, no, because it's a description (i.e. "the emperor" not "the Emperor"). Ziggurat 00:13, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

What about here?

He is later considered to be the first Roman Emperor.

In 37 Caligula (37-41) succeeded Tiberius as Emperor.

Also, is this the correct way of using the semicolon, colon, and the word although:

He recalled Demetrius from Greece; although, he was winning success after success there, and moved against Lysimachus.

Nope. A quick punctuation switcheroo will make this correct: "He recalled Demetrius from Greece, although he was winning success after success there, and moved against Lysimachus." The middle clause is a parenthetical statement, so it should either go between commas, between brackets, or between dashes. Ziggurat 00:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Book Review

Hello, I have an assignment from school to write the book review on novella "the ballad of sad cafe". Could you please assist me in it as i have no idea in writing the book review. Please help me

You’ve got the title, that’s an excellent first step. Next I recommend finding out who the author is. Once you’ve done that, obtaining a copy of the book is in order, which can be done by taking the author’s name and the book’s title to your local library and asking for a copy. After getting the book, it’s usually best to read it. After having read it, write something about it that sums up what the book was about and then says what you liked or didn’t like about it. Then edit what you’ve written for good copy, and then print it out and turn it in with your name on it. That’s what I’d do, anyway. — Jéioosh 03:15, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Aaaahh, the undefeated style of communication through sarcasm and irony... As is stated on top of page:

Do your own homework. If you need help with a specific part or concept of your homework,
feel free to ask, but please do not post entire homework questions and expect us to give you 
the answers. 

惑乱 分からん 07:06, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, you haven't even got the title. It's "The Ballad of the Sad Cafe". Writing it correctly will help you get more hits, and more marks. If you want to know what a book review looks like, look on a bookselling website like Amazon or, better still, in the review section of a good newspaper.--Shantavira 07:07, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Being a person who enjoys writing but hates reading sloppily-written, old books given out by teachers who are nostalgicly stuck in the past...I suggest Sparknotes, or you could be really lazy and just rent the DVD from Hollywood Video.

A good book review should contain an articulate, brief but complete synopsis of the story, and some supported (by the text) comments, criticisms, and possibly compliments about the piece. A great book review will also contain some information about the author, some analysis of the text, possibly a comparison/contrast to similar or contemporary works or authors, and scintillating prose. Try checking out book reviews at salon.com or the NY Times to read some excellent book reviews. You can't go wrong by starting out with 'The Ballad of Sad Cafe is a novella written by X and published in Y. It is the story of ___. Its protagonist, ___, is reminiscent of Z's ____, which is unsurprising since X was a protegee of Zs when s/he studied under her/him at ___. TBoSC was X's # published work and showed her/his (immaturity/maturity) as a writer.' BTW I made all that stuff up so don't bother searching for her/his mentor or what university s/he went to, it's just a suggestion. :-)--Anchoress 02:50, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Initial Stress in Czech and Hungarian

Czech and Hungarian are unrelated but have the common feature that every word (or nearly every word) is stressed on the first syllable. Do any other languages with significant numbers of speakers have this feature? JackofOz 03:34, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Finnish, and I think Latvian. What I notice is that these four languages vowel length is phonemic. --Chris S. 03:46, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

The Goidelic languages (except Munster Irish) and the Sorbian languages too, although they don't meet the criterion of having significant numbers of speakers. Latin has evidence of having had word-initial stress in its prehistory, although by the classical period that Latin stress rule had shifted stress rightward. User:Angr 07:49, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Estonian (a neighbour of Latvian and a relative of Finnish and Hungarian). Slovak is like Czech, too. Can't think of any more. --194.145.161.227 14:27, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Icelandic Stefán Ingi 14:51, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not only in European languages, either: initial stress is found in many Australian languages, like Pintupi, Badimaya, Diyari, Pitta-Pitta, Wangkumara, as well as New Guinean languages like Ono and Selepet, the Austronesian language Dehu, and Native American languages like Cahuilla and Auca, though these probably don't significant numbers of speakers. User:Angr 19:38, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

English tends to shift leftward too. Remember that many one-syllable English words started off as having two syllables, the second one gradually having been lost because all the stress was on the first. Jameswilson 23:31, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I would understand from Lee Hollander's Poetic Edda (an English translation of a collection of Old Norse texts), page 324, that Old Norse worked this way, and I studied Old English with the assumption that it was that way, although I can't substantiate it.

Thanks folks. There's no mention of this in the Icelandic article, so maybe someone who knows what they're talking about should do so. JackofOz 01:37, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

the pronunciation of a specific word in Mandarin Chinese

Hello, I've done searches to find the answer to this question, but it seems to be too specific:

Mandarin Chinese has a character “这”（zhe4). The meaning of this word is like the English "this". Native Chinese speakers pronounce this word in one of two ways, either like the English word "jay" or like the first sound in the English word "judge". Today, Chinese young people simply choose one of the two pronounciations and stick with it, or use them interchangeably. However, my Chinese teacher in America said that there are, or used to be, rules for when you use the first pronunciation, and when you use the second. He is an older gentleman, so he still follows these rules himself. However, I can't remember what he said these rules are.

So, with that background out of the way, my question: What are the rules for the pronunciation of this word? Do they still exist today?

I know that this question is random and specific, but any help you can give me would be appreciated. Even my young Chinese teachers in China didn't know that these rules exist, so I don't really know where else to go.

Thank you in advance.--Danaman5 07:05, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I think there are a few characters that has (or used to have) different readings depending on context, but that it is/was very rare in modern Mandarin Chinese. 惑乱 分からん 07:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

In this dicussion there was some suggestion that zhai is a contraction of zhe yi, and so is used before measure words. But universal agreement was not reached. ;) Henry^Flower 08:29, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Henry is right. "zhei" (in pinyin) is the contraction of "zhe yi" (這一 "this one").--K.C. Tang 08:59, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

My experience is that people who use the "zhei" pronunciation do so almost always before a measure word, but not everyone uses it. "zhe ben shu" seems just as correct to me as "zhei ben shu", but "zhe shi yi ben shu" sounds right to me while *"zhei shi yi ben shu" definitely sounds wrong. But I don't speak Chinese very well, so my judgments are suspect. --Diderot 09:26, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

• "zhei shi yi ben shu" would mean "this one is a book"... even someone who doesn't speak Chinese would guess that it's wrong...--K.C. Tang 01:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Punctuation

"There is no official language in Eritrea, rather it has three working languages, Tigrinya, Arabic, and English, and Italian is still sometimes spoken as a commercial language."

What is precisely wrong with this sentence and what would be the best way to fix it? --Merhawie 16:47, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

There is nothing wrong with it. I personally don't like "rather" in that context, and the parenthetical clause might be clarified by rendering it: "There is no official language in Eritrea, which has three working languages – Tigrinya, Arabic, and English – and Italian is still sometimes spoken as a commercial language."--Shantavira 17:24, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

For my part, I would greatly prefer a semicolon after "Eritrea" and a comma after "rather." But maybe that's just me. :-) --Tkynerd 18:08, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

(edit conflict)

If the word "rather" is retained, then the first comma should become a semicolon. I would recast the sentence into two as follows: "Eritrea has no official language, but it has three working languages: Tigrinya, Arabic, and English. A fourth language, Italian, is sometimes used commercially." --Mathew5000 18:10, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

It's wrong. 'Rather' is not a coordinating conjunction, so as mentioned it would need a semicolon (or maybe a colon?) before it. Henry^Flower 18:21, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

It's also a run-on sentence. Put a period after "Eritrea," and change "rather" to "Instead."--Teutoberg 20:12, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Not quite. A run-on sentence doesn't have any punctuation; rather, this is a comma splice. Henry^Flower 20:22, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you very much everyone for your input! This was a tremendous help! --Merhawie 20:52, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

Petrarch's De viris illustribus

How can I get an English version of this or get it translated from Latin to English? Is there a software program that would automatically translate this from Latin to English? In lieu of that, how could I get a list of at least the names of each on this Petrarch list? Is there common names on his list of names as Jerome, Boccacio, or Suetonius whom have same? Is there a web site of an English version of Petrarch's? Or a list of scholars that might have it in English? Whom are key scholars knowledgable about Petrarch? --Doug Coldwell 19:42, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think there is an English translation out there, either ebook or treebook and a machine translation would be probably unreadable. Although influential each life is just a short rehash of history available elsewhere: mainly from Livy. Dunno about names in common with Boccacio but it has none in common with Suetonius as he wrote of the Roman Emperors while most of Petrarch deals with the Roman Republic or before and Jerome wrote of Christian writers. Here is a list of lives: Romulus, Numa Pompilius, Tullus Hostilius, Ancus Marcius, Lucius Junius Brutus, Horatius Cocles, Cincinnatus, Marcus Furius Camillus, Titus Manlius Torquatus (347 BC), Marcus Valerius Corvus, Publius Decius Mus (312 BC), Lucius Papirius Cursor, Curius Dentatus, Gaius Fabricius Luscinus, Alexander III of Macedon, Pyrrhus of Epirus, Hannibal of Carthage, Fabius Maximus, Marcus Claudius Marcellus, Gaius Claudius Nero, Marcus Livius Salinator, Scipio Africanus, Cato the Elder, Scipio Aemilianus Africanus. MeltBanana 22:23, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

This is very helpful. Then I understand this is the complete list of names on Petrarch's De Viris Illustribus!? So my understanding is that then he just describes these individuals with a brief description or history of each!? Are you a scholar quite familiar with Petrarch? Do you know of others very familiar with Petrarch? Have you ever come across where Petrarch wrote in a "pen name" or wrote in any type of a "code"? Are you at all familar with Jerome's list of "Christian writers" or know who is familiar with these? You have been very helpful and it helps me a lot in my research I am doing on Petrarch. --Doug Coldwell 23:57, 18 August 2006 (UTC)

periodical definition

I would like to know if there is a term for a publication that is released 3 times a year. I'm familiar with, weekly, monthly, quarterly, etc.

There is no common term. The best option seems to be "quadrimonthly". [1] [2] --Mathew5000 22:36, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

'Triannual' is less ugly. Henry^Flower 23:58, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

'Quamestrial'? (warning: I made that up :) ) DirkvdM 06:55, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

'Triannual' is correct. Its counterpart is 'triennial' = "once every three years". This corresponds to 'biannual' and 'biennial', which are in any standard dictionary. Charvex 06:10, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Editing Questions

Should Emperor be capatalized.

He is later considered to be the first Roman Emperor.

In 37 Caligula (37-41) succeeded Tiberius as Emperor.

What about kingdom.

The gold of Babylon represents that the great Kingdom did not need much.

The Crusaders exiled the Greek Orthodox Patriarch from the city, and a Latin hierarchy was established in the Kingdom under a Latin Patriarch.

Also, does 1960's have an apostophe.

No, no, and no. Neither emperor or kingdom are capitalized and 1960s does not have an apostrophe. --Yarnalgo 22:19, 4 August 2006 (UTC)

That would be "Neither emperor nor kingdom is capitalized".  :--) JackofOz 13:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

August 5

Think you know the English language? (British and American) __Take the RETF challenge__

RegExTypoFix (Regular Expression Typographical error Fixer, or RETF) is a set of over 1600 regular expressions used to automatically fix common typos and misspellings. The only need for a human is to verify that the replacements are correct and hit Save.

However, when I started I used a list of misspellings that were utter crap. They included many "misspellings" that were actually words. Now I know better and check multiple sources for every word I add.

That's where you come in. There are 1600 lines of words. All need to be checked.

• Find one line that has a problem and you get a mention in my weekly newsletter
• Find two or more and you get the original Wikipedia barnstar

I know they're kind of lame prizes, but I wanted to give something to anyone who could help me out. I have a deep passion for RETF and have made over 18,000 typo fixing edits with its assistance. I have 733 articles to fix right now.

Help Wikipedia out and start checking
Thank you!!! --mboverload@ 00:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Appart from the many rare and indangered variant forms you are trying to cull, there is:

tenacle - a holder, forceps, a thing you carry a flag in.

persue - the trail of blood left by prey

and where would the world be witout humerous - "that hath great shoulders". MeltBanana 01:56, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

I went through a bunch. Check your talk page. --ColourBurst 01:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

OK I admit it I am just trying to make life difficult for you:

dispair - un-pair

discribe - un-write

belive - quickly, lively

curch - hanky hat MeltBanana 02:32, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Wow, thanks! I guess estimating that you would only be able to find one error was quite a misjudgement on my part! --mboverload@ 04:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

If anyone has any more that would be awesome =D --mboverload@ 06:15, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

You mean to say you assumed you'd never have to hand out the barnstar? You deceiving rascal you! DirkvdM 07:01, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

<Typo find="\b(C|c)onneticut\b" replace="$1onnecticut" />: it's always capitalized. What you want is: <Typo find="\b(C|c)onneticut\b" replace="Connecticut" /> - Nunh-huh 07:13, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

"Completely automatic"? Wouldn't that require a rather advanced grammatical AI? 惑乱 分からん 12:30, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

It replaces the words automatically, but a human has to verify the replacements are correct before hitting save. Sorry, should have made that clear. --mboverload@ 12:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

<Typo find="\b(V|v)etween\b" replace="$1etween" />

Wouldn't this produce "vetween"? Perhaps it should be between? Road Wizard 12:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

<Typo find="\b(D|d)ieing\b" replace="$1ying" />

Possible variants dyeing and dying. Road Wizard 13:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

<Typo find="\b(C|c)overted\b" replace="$1onverted" />

Possible variants coveted and converted. Road Wizard 13:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

<Typo find="\b(C|c)opywrit(e|ed|es)\b" replace="$1opyright$2" />

For option 1, wouldn't this produce "copyrighte"? Road Wizard 13:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

<Typo find="\b(C|c)opywrite\b" replace="$1opyright" />

Possible variants copywriter and copyright. Road Wizard 13:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

<Typo find="\b(D|d)almatio(n|ns)\b" replace="$1almatia$2" />

<Typo find="\b(D|d)almation\b" replace="$1almatian" />

Isn't this a double post of the same spell check? Road Wizard 13:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

<Typo find="\b(C|c)ritisi(m|ms)\b" replace="$1riticis$2" />

<Typo find="\b(C|c)ritisism\b" replace="$1riticism" />

<Typo find="\b(C|c)ritisisms\b" replace="$1riticisms" />

A triple post? Road Wizard 13:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

<Typo find="\b(D|d)ecyphe(r|red)\b" replace="$1eciphe$2" />

Isn't 'decypher' an acceptable variant (as in cypher)? Skittle 19:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

<Typo find="\b(D|d)rummless\b" replace="$1rumless" />

And is 'Drumless' a word, however you spell it? I can't find it in a dictionary or the web, except as a sort of made-up thing. Does that count? If so, can it have a set spelling? Or have I missed a usage? Skittle 19:31, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

<Typo find="\b(E|e)conomics(t|ts)\b" replace="$1economis$2" />

Have I misunderstood, or would this return 'eeconomist'? And people might mean 'economics'. Skittle 19:36, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Irregular Plurals

I read that there are only 13 irregular plurals in English. Is this true? I found

• foot/feet
• goose/geese
• louse/lice
• man/men
• mouse/mice
• tooth/teeth
• woman/women
• die/dice

what are some more? Reywas92 00:57, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

There's a lot more than 13. Especially those words of Latin origin whose endings turn from -us into -i into the plural. Also there are words like hypothesis and axis whose plural forms are respectively hypotheses and axes. --Chris S. 01:09, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Moose/moose, deer/deer, child/children... zafiroblue05 | Talk 01:22, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Any loanword from Japanese is most likely irregular; sushi/sushi, nunchaku/nunchaku, etc. --ColourBurst 01:25, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Forms such as cactuses, instead of the more proper cacti, are becoming accepted. After all, who uses hippopotami these days? I call them hippos. People have starting using plurals like criteria as a single form, in place of criterion.

There are those odd words whose plurals don't mean quite what non-native speakers sometimes assume - if the plural of noodle is noodles, then what is a spaghetti, and what happens if you have more than one? Perhaps with breads, cheeses and wines.... and maybe even sheeps.... --TheMadBaron 03:11, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Since spaghetti is from Italian, isn't the singular form spaghetto? —Bkell (talk) 04:50, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Let's be a little more careful. Spaghetti, bread, cheese, wine (and, I'm almost certain, sushi) are uncountable nouns in English; sheep and nunchaku are countable nouns which have identical singular and plural forms. Henry^Flower 09:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

But those are words from other languages. We have our own native irregular plurals. See English plural and ablaut. Adam Bishop 05:21, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Even sticking just to words of Germanic origin, the above list omits child/children, man/men, ox/oxen. User:Angr 06:59, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

If we take into account all words that have migrated into English,there are many variations such as gateau/x, kibbutz/im, radius/radii. Then there are the remnants of ye olde English- brother/brethren and some archaic terms such as cow/kine. Perhaps it might be a useful addition to the plural article to have a list of plural endings.Lemon martini 14:44, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

So to sum up, there's well over thirteen. I'm thinking there's about a hundred of 'em. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 18:18, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

By irregular, I ment as in with a vowel change in the root of the word, as in my examples. Reywas92 16:58, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Meaning and Origin of the expression"dum de dum."

I am interested in finding out the origin, meaning, and correct spelling of the expression "dum de dum". To me, it means a repetitive drum beat or sound, and, more generally, an expression used to denote boredom, perhaps because something is repetitive. Am I close? Thanks for any help you can give. --24.8.231.168 02:46, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

It comes from the Bible. It's what Jesus said to himself before beginning the Sermon on the Mount.--Teutoberg 03:09, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually, Jesus was simply quoting Genesis 2:2: "And on the seventh day God said 'dum de dum, tum te tum,' and he rested from all the work that he had done." Ashibaka tock 06:02, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

How do you spell that in Hebrew and Greek? —Keenan Pepper 06:36, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Hebrew: דם די דם, טם טי טם and Greek: δυμ δι δυμ, τυμ τι τυμ. —Daniel (‽) 09:23, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Haha, cool. δαμ δι δαμ is closer to the English pronunciation, but δυμ δι δυμ sounds much funnier, especially when I imaging God saying it. —Keenan Pepper 09:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

No, δαμ δι δαμ is closer to the American pronunciation. I don't think the Southern English pronunciation can be represented in Greek, but δυμ δι δυμ is exactly right for Northern dialects of English. — Haeleth Talk 17:16, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

In all seriousness, I always associated it with quietly singing a song to yourself to pass the time. Sort of in the way young children do; just kind of making up a tune. I've heard it used to denote boredom ("Well, next bus is in an hour... dum de dum..."), along with a certain sort of naive stupidity in the manner of Forrest Gump. ("So he just crosses the street without looking - dum de dum de dum - and gets hit by a bus.") I've also heard it in a "do de do" type form, particularly for the latter, that's probably the same thing. --ByeByeBaby 06:34, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

No, it's from Genesis 5:2 (5th album "Selling England by the Pound", 2nd song "I Know What I Like (In Your Wardrobe)"), which starts with "Its one o'clock and time for lunch, (dum de dum de dum)". The gardener takes a break and starts humming. So it's a sound of being content. DirkvdM 07:24, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Huh. I always figured it was just the theme from Jaws, you know, the music that plays right before the shark is about to chew someone up. I've heard it used in terms of boredom before, but where I am from we usually just hum the Jeopardy music that they play during the final question: "Dooh, do, dooh, do, dooh, do, dooh, DOOH! Dah-do-do-do, dooh...dooh...dooh". In terms of slowness/stupidity, people are starting to say "dee dee dee" alot nowadays because of a comedian they have on television now, Carlos Mencia, I think is his name. Never really liked his acts much though. --69.138.61.168 08:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

English names ending in "ett"

What if any is the common origin of English names ending in "ett", like Barnett, Bennett, Burnett, Crockett and Hewlett? Thank you. (August 5 2006, 08:10 UTC)

I believe this was asked before and I believe the answer was that the suffix has a French origin, the French 'ette' being a French diminuitive (or female, as in 'Jeanette'). DirkvdM 10:49, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Seemingly, but apparently not for all surnames. 惑乱 分からん 12:26, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

What about "ott" as in Abbott, Arnott, Harnott & Arrott jonocorry 04:00, 5 February 2007 (UTC)

Naughties

If the last decade was the nineties, then what is this decade called? I just read the term 'naughties', which I found amusing enough to start using it myself. But I doubt that's the official term. DirkvdM 10:46, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Isn't it simply "the 2000s"?

There is no official term. Unlike some other languages, English does not have a language academy. --Ptcamn 11:28, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

The naughties/noughties sounds nice enough... ;) 惑乱 分からん 12:27, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Does not knowing that any language was regulated make me a moron? --mboverload@ 12:41, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

No, but don't worry, I'm sure there are loads of other thngs that do. :) DirkvdM 17:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

lol, that was cold =D --mboverload@ 05:33, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Back in the 1990's, there was a lot of speculation on alt.usage.english and other forums as to what the decade would be called, and now we're halfway through it, and we still don't know. "The 2000's" will be ambiguous as soon as the 2010s become relevant... AnonMoos 15:03, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Anyway, the preferred spelling seems to be "Noughties" -- see 2000s#Names of the decade AnonMoos 15:05, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

come on dirkvdm with all your free-society rhetoric, I know you know the nuances of the definitive/prescriptive language debate.

Are you talking to this DirkvdM? Am I guilty of 'free-society rhetoric'? What does it mean anyway? Or 'the definitive/prescriptive language debate' for that matter? DirkvdM 17:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

you're anti-xenophobic, you're into open source, dollar voting, democracy, things like that. I would call that "free society rhetoric"..nothing wrong with it....that's just the perception I get of you. If you're American and I had to wager, I'd bet you've voted at least once for a libertarian.

In any case, I was also betting that you would be very much so on the side of definitive linguistics wherein a language is defined as how it's used in reality, as opposed to prescriptive linguistics where a language is defined by an institution (dictionary publisher or government academy).

Have you been keeping an eye on me? That first sentence is quite right. However, I'm very Dutch. I suppose you mean by 'libertarian' what I call 'liberal' (in both the social and the economic sense - I have voted VVD and D66, but I now vote GroenLinks for the sake of the climate).

But I'm also very much into standardisation and logic. In technology (and clothing and whatever), but also in language. So I suppose I'm on the prescriptive side. Who should prescribe those rules is a different matter. For example, I try to stick to English English because that's closest to me. So circumstances picked the standard for me. The main thing is to be consistent. Ultimately, everyone should preferably use the same words for the same things. Whatever that is, but also preferably in a logical context. So if previous decades were called the eighties and nineties and such, then this decade should be called the 'zeroties', but since that sounds awful 'noughties' will do quite well. Although 'naughties' sounds a bit tempting. :)

You edited here as 74.227.197.63, but that ip address hasn't done many edits, so did you forget to sign in or do you have a rotating ip address? Who goes there? DirkvdM 07:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I propose we cease referring to any decade as "the ____ies" in order to solve this problem. We can simply buy records called "Best of the Period Between 1960 and 1969". Therefore we call this "the period between 2000 and 2009". Taiq 13:59, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

There is no problem when you can't define a very young person by the number of his/her decades. A man in his forties, yes ; a teenager ... exists also : why no teenies for the next 10 years ? For the moment being, some Bush era, google era or anything else [era] shall prevail one day, like les années folles in the 1910's in France. --DLL 18:18, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

In Dutch we do have words for people at other 'age-decades' - after 'tiener' we've got 'twintiger', 'dertiger', etc. In English that would sound a bit strange - twentager, thirtager. They are almost the same as the Dutch words, but somehow the don't 'work' in English. Btw, funny, my spellchecker recognises 'twintiger' as an English word, and so it is. :) DirkvdM 06:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

How about using scientific notation, so that we have "the 2.00 × 10³s" for the years 2000 to 2009, "the 2.0 × 10³s" for the years 2000 to 2099, and "the 2 × 10³s" for the years 2000 to 2999? ;-) —Bkell (talk) 05:48, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

No matter what you decide, you're just gonna have to argue about it again when we get to the tens.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  17:51, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Limits of Historical Linguistics

Hi. I have a somewhat technical question. There seems to be an assumption (I have read it in several places, including on Wikipedia I think) that one can't work out what languages sounded like more than 10,000 years ago. However, surely the only justification for this belief is glottochronology, which seems to be discredited, as otherwise one could just go through more sound changes (obviously they would be harder to be certain of, but still...) In fact, one of the things that strikes me about some core vocab is how stable it is. To use a particularly stable example, the PIE word for name has an n and an m and keeps the in the same order in nearly every daughter language List_of_common_Indo-European_roots#h.E2.82.81.2C_e.2Fo. So why do some people think that all languages started out as one, but it is impossible to reconstruct it?--Estrellador* 18:12, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

As far as I know, what's discredited about glottochronology is that it can be used to reliably indicate how long ago two related languages parted ways. The idea that historical reconstruction can only take us so far and no further is not discredited, although I suspect most historical linguists would be reluctant to put a specific figure on the number of years it can take us. The reason most say it's impossible to reconstruct "Proto-World" is simply that our knowledge of "existing" (if you will) proto-languages is already spotty enough. We have a fairly good idea of what Proto-Indo-European was like, but there are still gaps. We also have a fairly good idea of what Proto-Semitic was like, but although we know it has to have descended from Proto-Afro-Asiatic, our knowledge of that is even spottier. But what we do know about PIE and PAA is enough to show us that we can't reconcile the two and reconstruct a proto-proto-language to be the parent of both of them. In other cases, it's not so clear; there's still a debate as to whether Proto-Turkic and Proto-Mongolic can be reconciled and derived from a Proto-Altaic or not, and so there is correspondingly little information about what Proto-Altaic may have looked like if it did exist. Trying to reconcile Proto-Altaic with PIE or PAA is even more hopeless. And so on. That answers the second part of your final question. The answer to the first part of the question, "why do some people think that all languages started out as one" is that if they didn't, then that means language arose independently in different populations of early humans at different times, but yet managed to reach every single human society, which is just too unlikely to be believed. All human societies have grammatically complex languages that follow certain linguistic universals; the most parsimonious and plausible assumption is that this facility arose only once during the evolution of human beings. It would just be too weird if it arose multiple times in multiple locations around the world, and yet still had as much in common as human languages do. User:Angr 18:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

It's very unlikely that an IE language has many common roots with other families, and if such roots were found in other families, it would be something very vague, like one vowel or something. There's just far too much variation in languages. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 18:48, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the extremely prompt answers. However, I am not quite sure I understand how the argument works. Surely either all languages began as one, in which case we would be able to see some similarity, such as shared vocabulary, or they didn't, in which case we wouldn't. Maybe the shared features (which are fundamental, true - all langs, or so I have read, have pronouns, nouns and verbs, and I have read about certain IFTHEN features) are really a system of categorisation, else why would there be so little similarity in anything except grammar - which appears to be heavily dependent on a few set assumptions like S, O and V order for all its smaller quirks? Really, IMHO, spontaneous generation in one place seems equally as likely as that in multiple places, as once is odd enough that several times makes no difference, particularly as the langs don't seem to share vocab, which is what has been used to reconstruct all the proto-languages so far. Surely if one person is necessary to generate the language, the others all have to have the capacity to absorb it, and, are thus just as capable of spontaneous generation, given enough time? Maybe I don't understand linguistic universals well enough, in which case I would be happy to be referred to some good sources. It just seems, as I say, odd that languages are all postulated to come from one common ancestor when no vocabulary, which as I say seems moderately stable, survives. --Estrellador* 20:46, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Have a look at the extensive article at Zompist, which explains very well the problems in finding linguist roots... basically, because of the changes that languages have suffered in the past few thousand years or even less, words with a common ancestor can be as distinct as (Hindi)"chah" and (English) "six", whereas words without a common ancestor can be as similar as (Japanese) "so" and (German) "so". Junesun 21:16, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Or possibly Japanese miru and Spanish mirar...although I think that is just a coincidence... - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 07:00, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for all the responses. They have been helpful. --Estrellador* 16:13, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

I recall something about the similarity of the word for "water" in many languages. Someone told me that there are only six words reconstructed for proto-world. One of them is finger: *tik AEuSoes1 21:48, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Is Emperor capitalized?

It was built by the German emperor Geiliom II who visited the city in 1898.

This question looks familiar - I'm experiencing déjà lu... - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 19:35, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

There seem to be different conventions on this. I capitalize titles when referring to a specific person but not when referring to the position in general: "Of the many Germans emperors, Emperor Gailiom was the only one who visited the city in 1898." StuRat 22:17, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

There was no German Emperor Geiliom II or Gailiom. There was, however, a Wilhelm II. User:Zoe|(talk) 22:37, 5 August 2006 (UTC)

Geiliom looks like somebody's unusual idea of how to spell the French equivalent Guillaume. JackofOz 01:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

August 6

Pronunciation of Łódź?

A quick request of help for any experts of the Polish language.

Anyone know how to pronounce Łódź? I don't entirely understand the way the Polish language's grammar operates, and the IPA phonetic pronunciation is no help either.

Thanks for any help I receive, and make the answer spelled out simple phonetic style, like "America" would be spelled "um-ER-ickk-uh". Use capitalized letters for stressed parts. Again, thanks!-Andrewia 00:28, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

you don't need to understand the grammar if what you want is only to know how to pronoune that word... according to our article, it is pronounced as [wutɕ], so it's something like "wOOtsh", though the sound represented by "ź" doesn't exist in English anyway.--K.C. Tang 00:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I think Polish voiced consonants become unvoiced at the end of the word. If that's the case, then it would be, in the "simple phonetic style," wootch. If not then something like woodge. Closest thing in English, though, but not exactly accurate. --Chris S. 07:16, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

If I understand the very brief glace I looked at Polish phonology, it seems like it would be pronounced roughly "WOOJ", or /wuʥ/. However, don't quote me on it because I know nothing of Polish.--Andrew c 00:42, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

the eng Łódź article gives [wutɕ], the french one gives [wudʑ], which one is right?--K.C. Tang 00:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

My textbook says that final consonants 'often' become unvoiced, so I think there's some room for regional or personal variety. FWIW, my book also indicates that Łódź is one of the words where the consonant becomes unvoiced. Henry^Flower 08:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what your textbook means by "often", unless they're thinking of the fact that final devoicing can be overridden by voicing assimilation from the following word. Pronounced in isolation, final devoicing is exceptionless. The word is [wutɕ], roughly "wootch". User:Angr 09:47, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm sorry to hijack this question but it is sorta related: how do you pronounce the Polish name Zbigniew? MeltBanana 01:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

zbeeg-NEE-ev? No? That's my guess. Or maybe ZBEEG-nyev.- THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:59, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

ZBEEG-nyef: two syllables, stress on the first, and the second 'i' indicates palatisation rather than a separate syllable. Henry^Flower 08:53, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Thank you everyone, and I'm glad to know that I was sort of right. I thought it was "wudge".-Andrewia 13:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Teaching pronunciation

Hello, Wikipedians. I've been working with a couple of students with English as a second language. While areas like grammar and vocabulary haven't been too difficult for us, we have had problems with the articulation of certain English phonemes. Can anyone offer me some tips about teaching pronunciation? I've tried a scientific approach, showing where and how the phonemes are made by using a diagram of the mouth and throat, but this method has produced poor results. I'm not sure what else to try; after repeating the phonemes over and over, trying to get my students to imitate them, I find myself putting aside the problems for later. My students' L1 is Latin American Spanish, so my saying zeta castilla castillana for /θ/ doesn't help too much. :) Anyway, in addition, the students have many other difficulties mainly because of Spanish's word and syllable structure. Thanks for any advice you can offer.--El aprendelenguas 01:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Maybe...expressing English sounds to your students as Spanish sounds, like "dch" or "di" for "j", eg. "diuc (dchuc) box", etc. Surely it's possible to get away with "f" for /θ/ though? I'm really not sure. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 07:07, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

The proportion of foreign language learners who attain a native-like accent is so small as to be practically zero, so you're fighting a losing battle. :) Realistically, all you can do is to concentrate on the kind of pronunciation errors which impede understanding. First make sure that they can hear the difference between sounds: minimal pairs and 19th-century style dictation are good for that. The 'scientific approach' can help if you start from a similar sound in their native language, and then tell them what direction to go (more forward, lips more rounded, etc). It should then be possible to get them to produce the phoneme in isolation. Getting them to produce in in words in connected speech is then a matter of lots and lots of repetition. Henry^Flower 09:06, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I've had success getting students to exaggerate physically - for /θ/, for example, get them to stick their tongues out and bite, really over-the-top like. You could also try tongue twisters. If you haven't looked already, Dave's ESL Cafe has an idea cookbook full of good practises. Ziggurat 09:13, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

There are books on teaching pronunciation, such as How To Teach Pronunciation by Gerald Kelly. -- noosphere 22:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Esperanto: Use of the "Ulo" suffix.

When is it appropriate to use -ulo-? For example, trista (dreary) can be made to tristulo (unhappy person). Can I make fisxo (fish) into fisxulo (fish-man)? Also, is the term tristulo gender-neutral, or male, as other words (doktoro, for example) are? Do I need to say Sxi estas tristinulo for "She is an unhappy person"?

This should be simple. "-ulo = a person characterized by the root". Also, -ino = female. Tristinulo should do for a female (or tristulino ?] Beware that word formation leaves you with the risk of being misunderstood : any periphrasis could be enough. --DLL 17:38, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Tristulo ought to be gender-neutral, and that's what I'd use. If you want to be extra specific, use tristulino, not tristinulo. It's best to put the affixes such that each modifies the one on its left. "Female" (-in-) is a property of "person" (-ul-) and not "dreary" (trist-). --π! 00:55, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, about "fiŝulo", you can generally only use "-ulo" with roots that default as adjectives. As such, fiŝulo (if it was a word) would refer to a "fishy person". If you want to refer to a fisherman, the proper term is fiŝkaptisto. A "fish-person" monster might be a fiŝviro. --π! 08:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

translating a sentence into Spanish

Hello There, I work in the stores as a sales rep. I don't speak Spanish and really need to know how to say the following correctly in Spanish so I can make a nice sign. Thank You very much! The sentence is," Please help us by putting CD's back in correct spot after looking at it. Thank you very Much" This is stupid, but I have tried everywhere to find out. Thank youy so much. Helen......

"Por favor, ayúdenos a poner los CDs en el lugar correcto después de mirarlos. Muchas gracias." --jh51681 19:30, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Doesn't that mean "Please help us to put the CD's in the correct place"? I'd expect something like "ayúdenos poniendo los CDs", or "ayúdenos y ponga los CDs". --Lambiam^Talk 06:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The "emos" tense generally requires a transitive "estar" verb first. Danny Lilithborne 06:30, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

And be careful with the accents (although that probably shouldn't create much misunderstanding). 惑乱 分からん 19:57, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

...unless it's in upper case, which writing on signs usually is. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

A consideration is also how a phrase sounds in another language or culture. I often recognise phrases in Dutch used by especially US companies as being a direct translation from English. I suspect the 'ayúdenos' might sound strange because it's a typical 'Americanism' (US-ism?). After all, you've already said 'Por favor' and 'Muchas gracias'. No need to overdo it. The 'a' after it also sounds wrong, but that was already pointed out. 'en el lugar correcto' may have to be 'en su lugar'. And I wonder if there is a word for 'put back'. My dictionary doesn't tell, it could be 'reponer', but I won't bet on that. Finally, the English sentence mixes up plural and singular. So, sticking to plural, my suggestion would be

"Por favor, ponen los CD's en su lugar después de mirarlos. Muchas gracias."

The last 'n' in 'ponen' could sound a bit too formal, so that could be made 'pone', depending on the kind of shop. Having said all that, my Spanish is a bit rusty. :) DirkvdM 06:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

According to http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/DVD, Spanish doesn't seem to use any separating accents, thus "CDs". 惑乱 分からん 10:35, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Name of Swedish pronounciation symbol

I'm trying to figure out the name of the two dots over the 'o's and 'a's in the Swedish language. I'm not sure how else to descibe this symbol but it looks like a pair of eyes over the letter. What do you call this? Thank for your time 66.178.163.177 17:34, 6 August 2006 (UTC) Here is an example: ö Ä

I never can tell : diaeresis or umlaüt ? --DLL 17:39, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

According to the Ä and Ö, articles, for Swedish, seemingly neither. For German, where it often symbolizes a grammatical function, it's an umlaut, and for languages where it marks that the vowel should be pronounced separately, it's called diaeresis or trema. Since Ä and Ö are considered separate letters in Swedish and Finnish, and not variants of A and O, the dots don't have a name. I'm also confused. 惑乱 分からん 17:55, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Either, or trema. See Umlaut (diacritic). · rodii · 17:51, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Our Swedish alphabet article is quite insistent that it's not called anything. You might as well ask what the straight line on the left of an n is called. Henry^Flower 18:09, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Correct. They are considered separate letters in Swedish, and are alphabetized at the end (...x,y,z,å,ä,ö). Swedes say the alphabet has 28 letters (because v and w are not really distinguished in Swedish). One can describe the appearance of the letter in English by saying something like "a with a diaresis" or "a with two dots over it"; IMO the term umlaut should not be used. (BTW, the Swedish word omljud refers to a phenomenon in Swedish similar to umlaut in German, whereby a Swedish noun's vowel changes when it is pluralized, or a verb's vowel changes between the present and the past tense; e.g., man --> män; bok --> böcker; ryker --> rök. But omljud refers strictly to the phenomenon, not to the letters involved.) --Tkynerd 14:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Note. In order to follow international standards and due to a few minimal pairs in Swedish, such as tvist (dispute, argument; quarrel) and twist (dance), Svenska Akademien decided to disunify the letters V and W this year, and currently the Swedish alphabet is generally considered to have 29 letters. 惑乱 分からん 14:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Oooh, interesting news (and if I were still living there, I'd gradually be less irritated by Swedes' inability/unwillingness to distinguish these letters in English)! :-) But are there any plans to distinguish the pronunciations (for words like tvist and twist)? --Tkynerd 20:56, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Swedish phonology lacks the w, and therefore Svenska akademien isn't in the position to force the sound upon people speaking Swedish. Just as with native English and other speakers, correct pronunciation of foreign words is a voluntary task for each individual. 惑乱 分からん 22:57, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

identifying language of subtitle (and possibly translating) from clip on net

Hello,

I have a downloaded file (funnyownedcompilation5) which is a compilation of all sorts of freaky accidents with some music.

As he uses images from Eurosport, I think the creator is European.

There is a collapsing building in it, and the top of it crashes into a pole. There are subtitles saying

"Tio procent bor pa bondgardar en sillra/siffra/silfra son/som faller."

(The quality is rather poor so when I wasn't sure I used /) It is possible there should be some umlauts (¨) that I couldn't see because of the poor quality.

I know for sure it isn't English, German, Dutch or French.

Maybe Romanian? Or a Scandinavian language? I seem to recognize "falling" "chiffre=digit" en "ten percent" but for the rest...

Thanks! Evilbu 17:40, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

It's Swedish. "Tio procent bor på bondgårdar. En siffra som faller." Directly translated it means: "Ten percent are living on farms. A number that's decreasing." The joke is that "faller" could mean both "falls"(collapses) and "decreases". Just a very bad pun. 惑乱 分からん 17:45, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

As I said, the video was of poor quality, and I thought if I missed a sign it was an umlaut, apparently it is a ° (does that have a name?). Thanks, it makes perfect sense now! Evilbu 19:03, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Apparently not, since Å is considered a separate letter, otherwise compare ring (diacritic) or kroužek. 惑乱 分からん 19:27, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Kroužek is the name of it in Czech, where it exists only with a ů. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 22:52, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

English to French slogan translation

Hi

I've got the slogan of a local flying school which I must translate into the French equivalent.

The slogan is 'The sky's not the limit'.

I can find the literal translation which is 'Le ciel n'est pas la limite!', although I very much doubt it is correct.

Is there such a saying in French? If there is please tell me how it is said.

Thanks 81.107.59.131 18:56, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I can't think of a cognate idiom. I would translate "the sky's the limit" as "tout est possible", but that doesn't afford any translation of "the sky's not the limit." No obvious French equivalent comes to mind, and I don't work at searching for one for free. Normally, a bilingual ad agency would do this kind of work. You could try the Montreal yellow pages. --Diderot 20:04, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

better check with the french language academy before you do anything rash.

L’Académie française is the limit, it seems. --Ptcamn 01:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Au-delà des cieux (beyond the skies) could do. Par-delà les nuages (over the clouds) is less precious. --DLL 19:51, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

How many languages are there in the world?

The number I hear most often is 6000 but I don't believe I've ever seen it sourced. It's obviously a round number and I realize that there's some difficulty in counting the languages of the world because of dialects, logistics, and other issues I haven't even thought of but some one must have sat down and come up with 6000. I'd be interested in finding out how that person(s) arrived at the number. - Pyro19 22:58, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

The counter of languages most often cited is the Summer Institute of Linguistics' Ethnologue, but this is not without controversy (of course - mentioned in the article). They currently list 6,912 languages, and the count arises from the fact that they aim to list every documented language. Ziggurat 23:05, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Am I to assume they sort of scour literature to find mention of languages? Is there any estimate of how many languages there are out there that aren't documented? - Pyro19 23:14, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

They include some undocumented languages, actually. For example, Sentinelese has an entry in Ethnologue, even though nobody has managed to get close enough to study their language (they're hostile to outsiders). But presumably they speak something.

It's also worth noting that they seem to only include extinct languages if there is a bible translation for that language. --Ptcamn 23:19, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

I've heard some weird criteria, but this one takes the cake. :) DirkvdM 07:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

there's a reason for it, but! SIL International is listing languages so that they can translate the Bible into all of them. Kind of like how the best genealogical databases are compiled by Mormons with the aim of baptising the dead. Ziggurat 07:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Does the 6,912 figure include extinct languages? - Pyro19 23:44, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Not intentionally, but the data Ethnologue is based on is sometimes dated, and so languages it lists as living are actually extinct. --Ptcamn 23:54, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

This takes constructed languages into account then? 6,912 sounds about right though, when you take the number of language families and the usual number of languages contained within a family... - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:41, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Programming languages (+ dialects)? Mathematics and Logic? Baby talk? Sign language? Animal languages? The sky is the limit. DirkvdM 07:08, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

You may calculate anything with a good programming language, but you cannot express anything. Try the Bible! There is a true limit, related to distinct enough groups of human people. Remember also that UK English and other countries' Englishes do differ more and more.--DLL 19:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

A computer is a logical machine. A programming language can therefore express anything that Logic can, which is everything (not entirely sure about that last bit). Anyway, the question was about languages, without further specifications. DirkvdM 06:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

August 7

Use of "data" in a sentence

I'm not sure how to respond here Thanks guys! --mboverload@ 01:45, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Seems OK to me. · rodii · 02:32, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, data can be used as both plural and singular. Examples from the Cambridge Advanced Learner's Dictionary: The data was/were collected by various researchers. Now the data is being transferred from magnetic tape to hard disk. [3]. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 02:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I have just never heard it used as a plural, even though I know it can be. Just doesn't sound right to my ears. --mboverload@ 02:54, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Nor mine. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:38, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

It is plural - the singular is "datum". However it is also a mass noun, and when used in that sense, only the singular form exists. JackofOz 07:01, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Right, it's the singular form that sounded wrong to me. Maybe the fact that I'm Dutch somehow worked to my advantage here, approaching English more from a logical perspective than based on experience. DirkvdM 07:12, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

In compound nouns in English, the first noun is normally in the singular form, even if the meaning is plural. Example: "pea soup". So in "data base" the word "data", originally plural, reveals its singular nature. One says: "The data is corrupted", and not: *"The data are corrupted". Maybe some people prefer the latter, but it is definitely no longer the more common way, and to many people it just sounds wrong. --Lambiam^Talk 08:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I suppose one must also say: "This people is tall", and not: *"These people are tall", because the Purple People Eater reveals "people" to be singular, right?

You could say, eg. "The Masai are a tall people", but "This people is tall" is very unidiomatic. "People", even when used as a mass noun, is usually taken to be plural, eg. "The Australian people are wonderful, excellent and marvellous". JackofOz 20:20, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The prescriptively correct form is "The data are corrupted". "The data is corrupted" is widely used in speech, and as a staunch anti-prescriptivist I'd say it was correct, but Wikipedia is meant to be written in a style "appropriate to an encylopedia", which I suppose includes self-prescriptivism (but I'll still object to articles actually promoting prescriptivism). --Ptcamn 11:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Just assume that the data is something feminine singular, and problem solved :) Adam Bishop 17:21, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The style appropriate to this encyclopedia may differ from that appropriate to others. For example, it is only logical to complement our exemplary coverage of the important and encyclopedic topic of Star Trek with acceptance of the split infinitive. (Research in Star Trek-related articles should also make it amply clear that the most singular usage of "data" is as a personal name.) — Haeleth Talk 18:21, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

If the singular usage of data bothers you, then so should the singular usage of agenda (which is the plural form of agendum), and the word agendas must really drive you nuts. ;-) —Bkell (talk) 18:33, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

London Placename Etymology

I'm almost certain there used to be such a page on Wikipedia, listing all the borough names, notable streets, squares, etc. with their respective etymologies. But now I can't find it anymore. Is it still around somewhere deeply hidden or was it scrapped?

In either case, can anyone suggest a place where I can find a list similar to Etymological list of counties of the United Kingdom, only about London?

212.186.80.57 10:37, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The individual articles referring to the boroughs, streets and squares, possibly? I'm not sure. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 11:24, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for replying so fast. You're right but skimming through all the articles about London (some 17k of them, Google says) would be too much even for such a (passive) Wikipedia junkie as myself. Besides, it must be aggregated somewhere. So far I have found Knowledge of London's London Street Names but what I once saw on Wikipedia would still be better. Is it possible to search through deleted pages? 212.186.80.57 15:05, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm fairly sure that you've been hallucinating. The article doesn't exist: if it did, it would include words such as Gīsla and Hundeslawe from which the names of boroughs derive, but these are only found in the individual borough pages: [4]. A page such as that which contained useful information would not be deleted. In fact, googling for those two names produces 0 hits, so it seems that this information is not aggregated anywhere on the net. Henry^Flower 15:36, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Sorry for wasting your time. Apparently I was wrong - although I still can't believe it the facts are ruthless. I have searched through the Web Archive and there is no single trace of such a page. It seems the only source of semi-aggregated information on the topic is the USENET group uk.local.london with threads such as this. I have also found some references to printed sources and the Knowledge of London page I mentioned earlier. As User:Greatgavini correctly pointed out, Wikipedia has this information scattered across various individual articles, but an aggregated article is yet to be written. Hopefully someone will do it someday for the benefit of curious tourists :) 212.186.80.57 18:18, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Request split for schwa article

I think the schwa article should be split into two - schwa (letter) and mid central vowel. Schwa is a letter of Azerbaijani and Chechen alphabet and do not represent mid central vowel (actually it represents near-open front unrounded vowel). Please leave your message at talk:Schwa. thanks!--Hello World! 11:28, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

motivational words in Japanese

I'm looking to find out a few motivational words in Japanese and thier translations. Specifically relating to business affairs would be best. I'm looking for more culturally-based words, perhaps unique to or even slang in Japan, not just plain old words translated into Japanese. Thank you! --66.27.56.66 16:39, 7 August 2006 (UTC) 16:17, 7 August 2006 (UTC) Anne

There's "ganbatte!" for a start. Used as "Good luck!" but literally meaning something like Fight! or Struggle! 惑乱 分からん 17:49, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

It has lots of grammatical variations too, like ganbarimasu “I shall try hard” and ganbaranakutcha (< ganbaranakereba naranai) “hang in there, keep going, stick it out”. You can say yoisho when people are lifting something heavy and working together. — Jéioosh 21:04, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Actually ganbaranakucha is from ganbaranakute wa [ikenai], but the difference in meaning is subtle. :) — Haeleth Talk 18:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Anne, a question: what sort of word are you actually after? Words that might be spoken by a manager to his/her team? Words that might be used by members of a team to encourage one another as they work? Phrases that might appear on motivational posters? Words with inspirational etymologies that you can bring up in American meetings to boost your career with a whiff of the inscrutable Orient? Knowing what context we're working in would make it easier to help you! :) — Haeleth Talk 18:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Anne has clarified her request on my user talk page: "I'm looking for a motivational word that could be used in the Japanese workplace to rally employees, or perhaps a comment that could be made before a trade/negotiation that would be appropriate to encourage friendly or successful relations. It must be just one word, not a phrase. It will be in an English newsletter that is researching business with Japanese counterparts."

This is tricky, particularly the single-word requirement; most of the obvious choices do seem to be phrases rather than words.  :)

I think "Ganbarimashou" (頑張りましょう) would be the best choice: it's the polite hortative form of "ganbaru" as suggested by Wakuran, and means "Let's do our best": it's used to express a collective intention for the team to succeed. This is a very important verb -- it even spawned the (obsolete?) slang word "ganbarism" (ガンバリズム), meaning a can-do attitude.

Among students and children, "Fight!" itself (rendered as "faito" (ファイト)) is used as a general interjection of encouragement, but I think this is too informal.

If we relax the search to include key words from common phrases, then there are interesting options like "kiai" (気合), which is composed of characters meaning literally "spirit" and "join", and is usually translated "fighting spirit": this is typically used in phrases like "kiai wo ireru" (気合いを入れる), which means "to fire oneself up, to put everything one has into [an effort]".

There may be other options; my Japanese is not particularly business-oriented, so I can claim no particular expertise here. One option, if you're not quite satisfied by any of the suggestions you get here, would be to turn to the professionals: there are plenty of books in English on business Japanese aimed at non-specialists, so depending on how tight your deadlines are, you might consider trying to get hold of something along those lines from your local library (or browsing the Japanese section of your nearest decent bookshop), as I'd be surprised if the topic wasn't covered well there. (I haven't read any of those books, so I can't make specific recommendations, I'm afraid.) — Haeleth Talk 19:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Draconic vs. draconian

The Oxford and a number of other reputable dictionaries state that draconic and draconian are interchangeable, and both can mean either "relating to Draco" or "relating to dragons." Is there any consensus about which should be used for which?

On a related note, is the correct term dracology or draconology? NeonMerlin 16:27, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

The "relating to Draco" definition is more common than the "relating to dragons" definition, but both, I reckon, are interchangeable as their meaning can be deduced from the context.

Wiktionary lists both "dracology" and "draconology" as the study of dragons [5] - I'm not sure there is a word relating to the study of Draco's laws...Dracology, perhaps? Better not to coin neologisms though... - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 17:59, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Is draco Greek or Latin? For an -ology the root should properly be Greek. It’s okay to coin neologisms as long as you try to get them right. Draconian is synonymous with draconic when discussing dragons or the constellation Draco. However, it seems the two are not synonymous when talking about oppressive rule. In that case draconian is obligatory and draconic is – to my ears at least – incorrect. I speak of “draconian laws and regulations” but never “*draconic laws and regulations”. — Jéioosh 20:47, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

Right on. JackofOz 20:53, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

"Draco", both for the name of the Archon of Athens and for the allegedly mythological animal, are the Latin rendering of Greek "Drakōn". So the "proper" form for the field of study is "draconology", and "dracology" is an etymological perversion. --Lambiam^Talk 01:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Both senses (Draco and Dragon) come from the same Greek word (δράκων/Δράκων). However—in my experience at least—draconic is used more often while referring to dragons, and vice versa. OED lists neither dracology or draconology (or dragonology), but following from the example of demonology (also from Greek: δαίμων), I'd go with draconology (and also considering that the stem is dracon-, not drac-). :)—porges_(talk) 01:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

To sum up what everyone seems to agree on, it would be useful to have the distinction (and it seems to occur in literature):

• draconian: when related to Draco
• draconic: when related to dragons

...and the study of dragons is draconology.

Stress in Hebrew

What are the precise rules for the location of stress in Hebrew words (or where are the rules listed)? Mo-Al 23:15, 7 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know what you mean by "precise" rules but see Sounds in New Hebrew. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

That article doesn't actually list the rules for stress. That's what I meant by "precise". Mo-Al 17:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

There were some overall regularities in Biblical Hebrew, but it's very difficult to predict the position of stress in Modern Israeli Hebrew without knowing the exact morphological status of a word. AnonMoos 16:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Agreed. When in doubt, avoiding the English habit of accenting the first syllable is usually right! If you're reading from the Old Testament, a source which carries the traditional trop is invaluable, as the notes are always placed above or below the accented syllable.--Dweller 09:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I speak Hebrew well enough to know where the stress is in words, but what I'm curious about is how that is determined. Mo-Al 17:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, if you want a broad historical perspective, then pre-Biblical Hebrew had a rather regular phonologically-conditioned stress-positioning rule, but by the time of Biblical Hebrew this regularity had become partially obscured due to a number of sound changes and analogical developments. Modern Israeli Hebrew basically keeps the same stress position as Biblical Hebrew (in native Hebrew words OTHER THAN proper names), but a lot of the phonological distinctions which still enabled partial stress predictability in Biblical Hebrew (such as the distinction between long vowels and short vowels, between double and single consonants, etc.) have disappeared in modern Israeli -- so that stress-positioning is now almost entirely morphologically-determined. Trying to write a list of all the circumstances which contribute or have contributed to modern Israeli stress-positioning would be a rather lengthy and technically-detailed undertaking. AnonMoos 18:15, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It doesn't have to discuss modern Hebrew; a description of the laws for biblical Hebrew would suffice. Mo-Al 02:21, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

August 8

Is this good French?

The Wikipedia article on copyright infringement links to a French one with an absurdly long title, so I made this phrase up myself. Is this how it should be written?

Ceci n'est pas une infraction de copyright.

This is not an infringment of copyright. —porges_(talk) 01:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

It does not sound idiomatic to me (in French: Ceci n'est pas un idiotisme.), although it is used here (see the last sentence). Try violation du droit d'auteur. --Lambiam^Talk 01:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

But be careful: copyright and author's rights (or moral rights) are different things. One can violate author's rights without violating copyright. - Nunh-huh 02:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know the context in which this will be used. Is it in a discussion of U.S. copyright? Our article on French copyright law states: 'Based on the "right of the author" (droit d'auteur) instead of on "copyright", its philosophy and terminology are different from those used in copyright law in common law jurisdictions.' --Lambiam^Talk 07:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, to be honest I was really doing a (very) lame takeoff of Ceci n'est pas une pipe. I'm going to write Ceci n'est pas une infraction de copyright. in the Coca-Cola logo style, with the joke being that it's trademark infringement :P *teardrop* —porges_(talk) 22:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

It's not an infringement of copyright, it's a depiction of an infringement of copyright ??? 惑乱 分からん 10:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Sentences beginning "Yes, no..."

It is very common for New Zealanders to begin conversational sentences with "Yes, no...". For example:

Statement: I love your new car! Response: Yes, no, I only picked it up at the weekend.

Does anyone know if this is a uniquely New Zealand habit? Or do speakers of English in other countries do the same? If you're able to cite any articles that would really help.

203.173.157.111 02:29, 8 August 2006 (UTC) Alison

I do it! I'm an NZer, however. I would say that the "yes" part is the key: rather than the intention being a literal "yes", it's more an indication that the speaker has heard and acknowledged the person they are responding to. I'm sure there's a better linguistic term for it, but phatic would be a good place to start. Ziggurat 02:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

It's "Yeah, nah..." [6] ;) —porges_(talk) 05:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, no, it's become extremely common across the Tasman in Australia too. I've read probably half a dozen newspaper articles over the past couple of years about the phenomenon, so linguists and others are certainly taking note of it. What I've also noticed is people saying straight out "no" when they obviously mean a very definite "yes". Such as: Q. Are you happy with the new car you bought last month? A. No, it's really fantastic. This never seems to confuse the questioner, who always knows what the answerer means. This is a great example of how body language and voice tone play a far greater role in communication than the formal meanings of words. JackofOz 06:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The "No" in the "Are you happy? / No, I'm ecstatic!" exchange is called "metasyntactic negation" IIRC. --Kjoonlee 08:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

not called metasyntactic negation, but "metalinguistic negation." --Kjoonlee 08:17, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think it's unique to Antipodean English, though. I've been heard to start sentences "Yeah, no, ...", and the furthest south I've ever been in my life is Brownsville, Texas. User:Angr 08:31, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

There you go, then. I wonder where it first started. And, more importantly, why on Earth it started and why it has become so deeply ingrained in conversational idiom so apparently quickly. JackofOz 13:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

<-----

I think the 'yeah' is more of an acknowledgement.

Is your new car running well?
Yeah, nah it's pretty good, eh?

The nah seems to be slightly self-denigrating, if-you-know-what-I-mean. —porges_(talk) 22:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Vic Uni has noted it in some research into transcribing NZ-speak: [7] And [8] it is also mentioned that "It generally means "I agree with you, that it isn't..." i.e. 'Australian's can't play rugby aye?' 'Yeah nah, they're USELESS'". —porges_(talk) 22:14, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

That may be true in NZ-speak, but is definitely not generally true in Oz-speak. You should not be surprised to hear "How are you today?" being answered by "Yeah, no, I'm good". (ugh!) JackofOz 22:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for your thoughts, everyone, it's interesting to hear others' opinions on this quirk. Too bad I'll have to abandon my theory about it being a New Zealand thing. 203.173.157.111 04:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC) Alison

There's a bit of a vogue for it in the UK, often with a "but" in between. This was heavily satirised by a popular Little Britain character, played by Matt Lucas. --Dweller 09:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

It's very common in Dutch (but we say Ja nee, not "yes no" :p). It means the answer is not just "yes" or "no", but something slightly more complex. David 22:29, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I think "yeah, nah" is used as a vauge acknoledgement that dosen't specifically infer "Yes" or "no", like "Yeah, maybe". Body language is significant, which allows ideas to be clearly conveyed through vauge langauge. My tendancy to start sentences with an unrelated "no" is used to dismiss tangental conversation and stick to the point. Sometimes people will start with "no" even if nothing tangental has been said because tangental thought is detected in body language. Did "Yeah Nah" come from the television series "little Britan"?

Yeah... nah means everything and nothing at the same time as it completely explains the sentence following it but also contradicts itself to the point where it becomes irrelavant. For example "Yeah, nah Shane's always wrong" is effectively the same as saying "Shane's always wrong".

Amature at Cherokee Language

Please tell me if eji wahya is the proper wording for Mother Wolf. --69.23.201.248 03:40, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah nah i dunno ay bro hehehehehehe

Wedding poem/reading ideas

I'd appreciate a little help. I'm looking for a poem or passage suitable for a reading during a wedding. I've tried various combinations of search terms on Google but I keep getting the same core 10-15 readings. It's like all the sites are basically copies of one another. The wedding will be outdoors, so if there's a nature angle to it that would be good but not required. I'm not looking for anything too heavy on religion though. The wedding is also just your standard U.S. sort without any ties to any specific ethnic traditions or anything. So, any ideas? Dismas|^(talk) 05:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Not knowing these people it's hard to give you advice. A poem with little artistic value, but not overly corny and neutral regarding religion and ethnicity is this one. --Lambiam^Talk 06:59, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20cor%2013&version=31 is the classic Bible poetry. Brusselsshrek 11:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Well you could try using Epithalamion as your search term; the poncy poetic term for a wedding poem although it may yield only heavy poems. I personally might choose Against Constancy] by John Wilmot or for the nature theme Rip by Alan Garner or [In the Nuptial Chamber http://pages.ripco.net/~mws/Poetry/101.html] by Thomas Hardy or Medlars and Sorb Apples (sorry can't find this online) by D. H. Lawrence but I don't get invited to a lot of weddings. MeltBanana 18:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

"Condoning an illegal act"

Hi,

I have always beleived that the word "Fortiture" meant "condoning of an illegal act". Is this correct? Please could you advise the correct term and / or spelling.

Thanks,

Alan (e-mail address deleted)

No synonym of condoning that I can think of resembles this, "forgiveness" coming the closest. There is "forfeiture", which sounds similar but has an entirely different meaning. --Lambiam^Talk 06:47, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Nearly an antonym, in fact. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:55, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Probably, Alan is referring to the word fortitude meaning a resilient character, able to withstand adversities. However, the word does not mean "condoning an illegal act".--Tachs 08:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Alternate or Alternative

Which is the correct form?

This is the Alternative route to the city

This is the Alternate route to the city

In this case, I would use alternate. Don't capitalize it, though, and use a period at the end of the sentence. —Bkell (talk) 06:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

It depends on the context. "Alternate" suggests to me something that comes into play because the regular route is blocked, like a section of some bridge is being replaced. "Alternative" suggests a voluntary choice, as in the following dialogue: "--This route leads through the slums; is there an alternative? --Yes, here is an alternative route to the city.".  --Lambiam^Talk 06:35, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

"an alternative route" to me sounds the best, but if it must use the definite article then what Lambiam said. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 06:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it depends where you're from. In the US, "alternate" is often used where speakers of British English would say "alternative". In Australia, we would definitely refer to the "alternative route". An "alternate route", to us, would sound like this time you take one way, then next time the other way, then next time the first way again, etc. JackofOz 07:02, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Ditto. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 07:41, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Going by the grammar books, "alternate" means "passing back and forth" when used as a verb. As an adjective, it suggests "substitute". Hence, it is correct to use "an altenate route". The word "alternative" means "substitute" as well as "choice".--Tachs 08:18, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

So "numbering pages on alternate sides" means that you can't number pages on the usual side and have to use a substitute side instead? Nope, I think "alternate" is quite happy meaning "passing back and forth" even when used as an adjective... ;) — Haeleth Talk 19:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The alternate route is the alternative to the original route.--Anchoress 08:24, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

In the US, I believe "the alternate route" means that there are two routes, a primary and a secondary (called the alternate). "An alternative route", on the other hand, means there are an unspecified number of routes and this is just one of them. StuRat 08:26, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

You can only alternate (switch back and forth) between 2 things, whereas an alternative would be another possible choice (where they may or may not be just two choices, but there is certainly at least one other choice). Brusselsshrek 10:57, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

In my experience (as a Canadian), alternate is only used as a verb and adjective, and alternative is only used as a noun. The exceptions (alternative rock, alternative energy sources) involve alternatives to "the mainstream;" even then, alternate seems to be used if it sounds better (alternate lifestyle).

Thus, the alternate route would be the alternative. NeonMerlin 14:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Prescriptively speaking, it is incorrect to use "alternate" in this manner - it can only mean "switching back and forth." However, it's come to be accepted as a near-synonym of alternative as well (at least in the USA), so descriptivists probably would consider it ok. I would advise going with "alternative," as it's correct in everyone's book. -Elmer Clark 23:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Japanese question

Is it true that Randori is based on the same root as Rambo? Many thanks. Arbitrary username 06:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Probably a coincidence. It's true that 乱取り is randori and 乱暴 is ran + bō, but I doubt Rambo is named after 乱暴. --Kjoonlee 08:08, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

According to Rambo#Trivia, it seems based on the name Rambo apple, itself derived from a rare Swedish surname. 惑乱 分からん 08:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

It could be a pun like "ram bough". -- DLL ^{.. T} 18:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the replies. Arbitrary username 17:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

short vowels

I am studying short vowels. Can you please tell me what short vowel patterns VCCV and VCV are? thank you

Vowel-Consonant-Consonant-Vowel and Vowel-Consonant-Vowel? In the latter the first vowel would usually be long, but in the former it wouldn't, eg. wicker vs. wider. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 07:43, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

So is this referring to writing patterns? I wondered, since the "i" in wider, in modern English is a diphtong. 惑乱 分からん 08:45, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I think it's more about phonotactics/syllable structure. Wicker and wider are probably not meant to be examples of VCCV and VCV. I think "Andy" and "ago" would be better examples. The <o> in ago is a diphtong too, but the glide part of "ago" is redundant in phonemic transcription, unlike the glide part of "wider." --Kjoonlee 09:09, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Oops, ago isn't a good example either, because the /o/ is long. Hmmm... "Andy" and "Abba?" --Kjoonlee 09:11, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Well, English isn't a good example to use it with. German's probably a better bet: denken vs. denen, maybe? - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 10:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

The first e in denen is long. Wicker is actually a good example of CVCV, since there's only one [k] sound between the two vowels. Winter exemplifies CVCCV. User:Angr 15:27, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I know. And the e in denken is short, hence demonstrating VCCV and VCV. Pity about the wicker thing though - lovely word, bad example... - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 16:07, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

(nl) "kreeg ik" or "krijg ik"?

I am learning Dutch and am stuck...

I have this example from a text book:

• Op den duur kreeg ik er genoeg van.

translated as:

• In the end, I had enough of it

I'm not sure where "kreeg" comes from.

• Is it "krijgen" (to get)?
• Is the correct inverted form "kreeg ik"?
• How does the "van" relate?

Thanks! Brusselsshrek 10:54, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

My Dutch is bad, but I think the literal translation is something like "up (about) this through got I it enough of". What is "inverted form"? That the words change place in a dependent clause? Sorry if this doesn't help. 惑乱 分からん 11:30, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I think by "inverted form" (s)he means the effects of V2 word order. If the sentence begins with an adverb (like op den duur), the verb follows the adverb and the subject follows the verb, rather than the verb following the subject. --Ptcamn 11:58, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Kreeg is the past tense of krijgen. The inverted form is correct (there's a phrase at the start telling you when you had enough. If there was no op den duur, it'd be Ik kreeg...) Van simply means "of", er meaning "it". - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 14:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Dank u wel Gavini! Thanks, that's just what I wanted to know. Brusselsshrek 15:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Den apparently was de in an archaic form based on the grammatical case, but what does duur mean? Length of time? Just curious. 惑乱 分からん 16:50, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, "duur" means something like "duration". "De duur van het gesprek was twee uur" means "The conversation took two hours". Evilbu 16:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

So 'in the end' doesn't seem such a good translation, although it covers the intention. 'After a while' is a more literal translation and it also refers to the passage of time in stead of a (predetermined) moment, as 'in the end' does. DirkvdM 04:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I need help with translation

I don't know if it is a good place to ask about it so if anybody knows better - please, tell me about it.

If I wrote an article and I need some English native speaker to check it up what am I to do?

Nemuri 15:12, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Just put {{Copyedit}} at the top and wait a few months. There are unfortunately already about a thousand articles in Category:Wikipedia articles needing copy edit. User:Angr 15:22, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Which article? Evilbu 16:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Article - Manggha

The funny thing is that, in Poland, there is a "Centre of Japanese Art and Technology" named "Manggha", but that it hasn't got much to do with manga. ;) 惑乱 分からん 22:53, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I went over it, but don't take off the copyedit tag until it's been seen by at least one more editor. I had questions about a couple of things, check the discussion page.--Anchoress 03:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

German Translation

How does one say "If you know him,. . ." in German? Reywas92 15:33, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

It depends on who you're speaking to. Does "you" refer to one person or many people? Which side of the T-V distinction is the person or people you're speaking to on? User:Angr 16:01, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Wenn Sie ihn kennen... (polite); Wenn du ihn kennst... (informal); Wenn ihr ihn kennt... (plural), I think. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 16:10, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Yep, and the first one goes for both formal and formal plural. -Elmer Clark 23:44, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks! Reywas92 15:28, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Hebrew phrase

What does the sentence "חידוש זה לא התפשט בעברית מטעמים מובנים למדי." translate to? A literal translation seems to result in "This invention didn't spread in Hebrew quite clearly recited (plural)", which doesn't entirely make sense. This is in the context of the invention of new Hebrew words (specifically about one word). Mo-Al 17:06, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

It does not read well to me, but perhaps it is the Hebrew of well-spoken people. That's the only way I can make sens of it. — Gareth Hughes 22:19, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm no translator, but you could loosely translate it as "this novel idea didn't become widespread in Hebrew for quite obvious reasons". A "chidoosh" is literally something new, but it's about a different perspective on something. Does that make sense, given the context? --Dweller 10:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes. Actually, חידוש was referring to a new word in Hebrew, but the part I couldn't figure out was "מטעמים מובנים למדי". Thank you! Mo-Al 17:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

So you made me curious. What was the new word that didn't become widespread for "quite obvious reasons"? --18:03, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

להשריך (to tie someone's shoelaces). By the way, to be correct, shouldn't the sentence be "חידוש זה לא התפשט בעברית בגלל(or some other preposition) מטעמים מובנים למדי."? Mo-Al 04:46, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

I think that בגלל is made obsolete by the מ prefix to טעמים מובנים למדי. I've noticed that Israelis don't tend to use בגלל very much.--Dweller 10:33, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, okay. Now I fully understand. Thanks! Mo-Al 16:37, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

What language is this website?

Just wondering what language this site is in: http://www.oelaxv.com/

--Yarnalgo 19:52, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

German. It's the Austrian Lacrosse Union. -- Arwel (talk) 20:00, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

Ok, thanks. --Yarnalgo 20:03, 8 August 2006 (UTC)

10 Commandments

Do you know of a copy of the ancient Paleo-Hebrew script of the 10 commandments? Thank You

Feel free to transliterate the traditional depiction of the Commandments into the Phoenician alphabet. And please sign your comments with "--~~~~" --π! 00:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to point out that we only have the word of Moses that God carved the Commandments, rather than Moses having carved them himself. I find it highly suspect that he was up on the mountain alone for 40 days before returning with the Commandments. This seems to me to be about how long it might take a person (especially if that wasn't his trade) to carve out two stone tablets and engrave them with 10 Commandments. On the other hand, God could have done it immediately, and with people watching, couldn't He ? And back then, God didn't seem to mind showing Himself, as in the pillar of fire. It was only after the advent of scientific testing that God apparently decided to no longer show Himself. StuRat 01:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh, ye of little faith. :--) Moses in fact did re-carve the commandments, after he had flung the God-carved set down in rage at finding his people cavorting around the golden calf when he came down from the mountain. But, of course, he supposedly just repeated the words God had supposedly given him. And we have no proof that it was Moses' original testimony that now forms the relevant text of the Bible. JackofOz 02:37, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

So now we even know Moses was capable of carving the commandments himself. I guess I must just be the suspicious type...now if there was an eleventh commandment "Thou shalt give all thy women, money, and worldly possession to Moses", that would have been the clincher, LOL. StuRat 17:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The 10 Commandments are largely about worshipping God, too. They include:

Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth generation of them that hate me; And showing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments.

Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain: for the Lord will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain.

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days shalt thou labor, and do all thy work: But the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates: For in six days the Lord made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Then there is the bits about honoring one's parents, which is good advice, I suppose, but hardly rises to the level of what I would expect to be in a Commandment. And "not coveting thy neighbors ass" is good advice, too.

The only Commandments that are actual laws today are:

Thou shalt not kill (assuming they meant "commit murder").

Thou shalt not steal (unless the government does it).

Thou shalt not bear false witness (unless you're a lawyer, they are paid to do so).

There are some major oversights...no Commandments against rape and slavery, for example. I suppose Moses was in favor of those things. :-) StuRat 17:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Erm, see 613 commandments. You'll find rape covered by several commands under most systems of enumeration (try number 123 in Maimonides' list. Slavery was a part of Ancient Jewish civilisation; it was not prohibited, but heavily regulated. Our modern understanding of the perjorative nature of the term "slavery" makes it difficult to understand the Biblical concept. One insight into this issue is that slavery was not intended to be for life and could only become so by the wish of the slave (referred to in number 290). --Dweller 10:34, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

My point is that rape isn't important enough to make the "big 10" (while many seemingly silly things, like threats to punish people for what their great-grandparents did, do make the list). I also suspect that if a woman was forced into a marriage and then raped by her "husband", that would be OK at the time. And slavery, which one would presume a just god would oppose, was just fine with whoever actually wrote the 10 Commandments. StuRat 20:44, 14 August 2006 (UTC)

Judaism doesn't say that there's any practical difference between observing the 10 commandments and the remaining 603. The great-grandparents reference is about teaching hatred of God to your descendants. Women couldn't be forced into marriage. And slavery in the terms in which you understand the word, was not fine with whoever wrote the 10 Commandments. --Dweller 09:43, 15 August 2006 (UTC)

August 9

"correspondance" a valid French word?

Of course in English it's a typo, but googling it seems to get French results. Comments? --mboverload@ 08:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, judging from http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Correspondance --Kjoonlee 09:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Correspondant(e) is the French word for correspondent, and correspondre is the verb, so I suppose it makes sense that correspondance is the French word for correspondence. Markdarb 21:07, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Translation from Japanese

Hi,

Just trying to work my way through a homework assignment :-)

I've stumbled across the following sentence..

日本人が毎年春する事があります。何だか知っていますか。

I'm stuck on the meaning of 春する and 何だか.. The closest I can get to a translation is "Every year the Japanese experience spring; what do you know about this?" but that doesn't sound right to me. :-(

Thanks in advance for any help.

splintax ^(talk) 09:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Directly translated Japanese almost never sounds right. The languagese are too different. ;) Also, I think it's unclear who it is that "知っていますか" refers to, the reader or the Japanese people? Having said that, my Japanese is very limited... 惑乱 分からん 10:30, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I should have clarified.. this is from a series of questions that I'll be asked and have to respond to. The 知っていますか refers to me, the reader - as a Westerner, many of the other questions are asking me what I know about Japanese culture (eg. "日本でたくさん雪がふる所を知っていますか" - "Do you know a place in Japan where lots of snow falls?"). splintax ^(talk) 10:39, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

何だか means 'a little', 'a bit'. Idiomatically, maybe "Do you know anything about spring in Japan", or more literally "Do you know anything about Japanese people's experience of spring?" (The answer's almost certainly sakura.) :) Henry^Flower 10:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Jim Breen's dictionary gives:

何だか 【なんだか】 (adv) (a) little; somewhat; somehow; (P); EP

Maybe that would translate as "Do you know anything about it?" 惑乱 分からん 10:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

(After edit conflicts:) Japanese-person-TOPIC/SUBJECT every-year spring do-work/thing-TOPIC/SUBJECT-exists. (Of-)Which-know-PRESENT-QUESTION. I don't really know Japanese very well, but my translation (thanks to the similarities between Japanese and Korean) would be: There's something that Japanese people do every year at spring. Do you know what/which it is? --Kjoonlee 10:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Nandaka is usually translated to "무엇인지" or "무언가" in Korean. 무엇인지 means "something" or "what it is" or something like that. --Kjoonlee 10:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks guys. I remember vaguely the teacher mentioning sakura when going through the sheet yesterday, now. I've translated it as "Every year, the Japanese experience spring. Do you know much about it?". splintax ^(talk) 11:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Noooooh.. suru is not an auxiliary verb here.. --Kjoonlee 11:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

And suru-koto is an action, so the answer is probably hanami, if it's related to sakura. --Kjoonlee 11:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The translation of Kjoon (bold sentence) is perfect -- Are you really ja-1?? I don't know Korean unfortunately, but this fact seems to imply the similarities between Japanese and Korean is significant! The problem was, in fact, that the original Japanse sentence was not that perfect...

• original: 日本人が毎年春する事があります。何だか知っていますか。
• normal: 日本人が毎年春にする事があります。何だか知っていますか。

Usually に ("in", "at" or "on" depending on the context) is needed after 春, since 春 (spring) alone is just a noun. Note, though, some words like 昨日, 今日 or 明日 can be used as adverbs by itself, say: "明日買い物に行く" = "I'm going to go shopping tomorrow" (hmm, in English it's not on tomorrow, either... coincident?)

It is clear (in Japanese) who it is that "知っていますか" refers to: the reader, or the person who is asked. Actually, this sentence is ommiting "あなたはそれが" before "何だか知っていますか". The phrase "(それが)何だか" in this context is equivalent to "(それが)何であるか" = "what it is". Thus, the last half is the short form of "あなたはそれが何であるか知っていますか" which means "Do you know what it is?" (where, it = the thing Japanse people do in every spring... uh, probably ja:花見? ... oh, Kjoon already mentioned it!)

• 蛇足 (dasoku, a side note): "何だか" as an adverb is like thie: "何だか眠いな..." = "Nandaka nemui na..." = "I'm feeling a little sleepy...". "何か" (nanka) can also be used. --marsian 03:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

That also brings to light the obvious problem with referring to a dictionary for definitions of anything more complex than a simple noun. The dictionary you (the original poster) read that defined 何だか as "a little" was attempting a convenience for English speakers, when in reality it has no such meaning. Note that in English, "I'm a little sick" and "I'm kind of sick" have almost exactly the same meaning, though the words "a little" (a small amount) and "kind of" (a type of) have very different meanings. It is not realistic to believe such words can translate so easily into every language, and it's a shame that dictionaries try to inform users in such a way. It is much more easy to understand, anyways, when you realize the grammatical parts, e.g. WHAT + copula + QUESTION, which clearly gives it the same meaning as 何か (WHAT + QUESTION), which was so clearly explained at length previously by Marsian.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  20:06, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

A Dutch translation.

Could anyone provide Dutch, Swedish, Finnish or Norwegian translations of the word "plant"?

• Dutch: Planten [This is plural, sing. plant -- David Sneek 11:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)]
• Swedish: Växter
• Finnish: Kasvi
• Norwegian
  • Nynorsk: Plante
  • Bokmål: Planter

You can use Wikipedia as a simple translator by looking at the InterWiki links at Plant. --Kjoonlee 11:04, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

You can also use Wiktionary, the sister project of Wikipedia. It includes the entry for plant. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 11:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

You've seriously mixed up singular and plural form for several languages, Swedish: växt / växter (or planta / plantor), Dutch: plant / planten, Bokmål: plante / planter, vekst / vekster, Nynorsk: plante/ planter, vekst / vekster, vokster / vokstrar As far as I know. I don't know Finnish, but considering how the forms are mixed for most other languages, I would be suspicious concerning Finnish, too... 惑乱 分からん 11:57, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

/me smacks forehead. --Kjoonlee 12:10, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Which meaning(s) of plant? --Lambiam^Talk 02:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Well? 惑乱 分からん 11:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Any.

Is there still a problem now concerning the Dutch translation? Anyway : the plant (singular,noun, as in your garden) = de plant the plants (plural, noun, as in your garden) = de planten plant (singular, noun, as in power plant) = centrale :) Evilbu 13:37, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Plagerism Plagiarism

I have recently read a book, in which everything including quotes were not cited. I need to know who to report this author and book to.

Report this to the people whose work was copied. Note that a lack of citations is not the same as plagiarism; many popular books do not follow this academic pattern. Plagiarism is outright copying. Notinasnaid 11:23, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

See plagiarism and copyright infringement. Quoting up to 400 words of a work still under copyright is normally considered fair use. More than this and the publisher or author will have to seek permission, but they are not obliged to provide a reference unless they are specifically asked to do so by the copyright holder, though I agree a lack of references can be very annoying.--Shantavira 13:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I imagine there must be exceptions to the 400 word limit. For example, a book which is a review of another book would certainly need to quote far more of the original than that. StuRat 17:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but the publisher would still need permission. There are various exceptions. For example, you shouldn't quote more than 25% of a poem without permission (again, assuming it's still under copyright). This is a real bugger when you only want to quote a haiku.--Shantavira 07:36, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Those seem to be pretty arbitrary limits. I don't think such limits are actually written into law anywhere; they're probably just guidelines. —Bkell (talk) 19:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I Ching

How is "I Ching" properly pronounced in English? I've heard it as either "I ching" or "E ching" (I don't know IPA). Dismas|^(talk) 12:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I've heard both too. I doubt there is any one "correct" way. I'm surprised that a lot of people have never even heard of it, so it hardly matters in the end. JackofOz 12:42, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The modern Chinese pronunciation is, in a rough and ready romanisation, 'Ee Jeeng'; the 'Eye Ching' pronunciation is the result of applying conventions of English spelling-sound correlation to Chinese systems (with unfortunate results). Having said that, one could argue that in English we can call it whatever we like, and that the English name doesn't need to be the same as the Chinese one (and the pronunciation 2000 years ago was ceratinly nothing like either of them). I'd just say use whatever is most likely to be understood- Chinese-style or English-style according to your audience. (As a sidenote, I saw a reporter on the news today talking about a 'priceless Kwing vase'. Oh, how I giggled). Henry^Flower 12:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Reminds me of a radio announcer on a classical station in Texas who announced the broadcoast of Gow-nodd's Faust; the scene began with Faust "laminating" his fate... User:Angr 13:02, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Which in turn reminds me of a scene from the wonderful short film "X Marks the Spot" (about automobile safety) as interpreted by MST3K:

(Joe Doaks and his guardian angel arrive in God's "crummy" office.)

CROW (speaking as GOD): I'll be with you in a moment, I'm just sealing some fates. --Tkynerd 13:22, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the info... even the off topic sort.  :-) --Dismas|^(talk) 14:24, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Very...non sequituric. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 15:32, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd like to comment on that, but I can't think of anyth ........ (oops). :--) JackofOz 23:35, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

• I've been told "yee zhing" but China is a huge place so maybe accents differ but I say "eye ching" to some people cos they don't know what I'm talking about otherwise hotclaws**-- now where are my three coins(82.138.214.1 16:06, 14 August 2006 (UTC))

Asian verbosity

I was at a place today where there was a poster on the wall aimed at non-English speakers. It said "Ask for an interpreter here", then translated that sentence into a range of other languages. The Serbian, Czech, Macedonian, Greek, Indonesian and Turkish translations each required 3 words. The Spanish, Arabic, Armenian and Georgian versions used 4 words. The Italian translation needed 5 words, like the English original. But the Thai, Chinese and Vietnamese translations each used no less than 10 words or characters. Why so many words/characters for such a simple concept that other languages can get by with using as few as 3 words? JackofOz 12:51, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

In Chinese and Vietnamese at least, each character corresponds to one syllable, and a word might be more than one syllable. Thai is written in an abugida, so I don't know if you saw that many words or that many individual consonant symbols with their concomitant vowel markings, but if it was the latter, it will also be roughly one syllable per symbol. User:Angr 12:59, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Also, Chinese, Thai and Vietnamese are analytic languages, which use functional words rather than inflection to indicate various factors. The more concise languages may be pro-drop, for example. How is your Thai, by the way- are you sure these were separate words? Henry^Flower 13:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

The Thai and Georgian were educated guesses. They may not have been those languages at all. The one that really amazed me was Vietnamese. I even wrote it down (pardon some missed diacritics): "Quŷ vi có thê xin thông ngôn viên ó đây". Supplementary question: Why is Vietnamese so chock-full of diacritics? There's hardly a word that doesn't have one or more. JackofOz 13:09, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Because Vietnamese is tonal. Chinese has lots of diacritics too, when it's written in Latin.

As Henry hinted at, the number of words isn't the only number worth counting. How many syllables did they have? Inuktitut could probably express "Ask for an interpreter here" in a single word, but it would be a very long word. How many morphemes did they have? The Asian languages might have expressed part of the meaning in a separate word that the other languages put in a suffix on another word, but in terms of communicative efficiency, it amounts to the same thing. Would you say English must be wordier than German because English uses two words ("Main Page") while German uses one ("Hauptseite")? --Ptcamn 13:14, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It mightn't always be like that of course - I recall the name of an Asian country or something being only two short words - syllables, even - with its English translation being "Land of a Thousand Elephants". It all reeks a bit of the Sapir-Whorf (I think that's what it is) hypothesis, I suppose. It's a bit like the aforementioned Inuktitut example. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 14:34, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

That would be Lan Xang. Actually it seems to me that an explanation in terms of analytic/synthetic languages is the opposite of Sapir-Whorf.And therefore probably right. Henry^Flower 15:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

True: the example I gave is probably to do with S-W but in the question it's all analytic vs. synthetic. Whoops. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 15:29, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

OK, can anyone do a back-translation of the Vietnamese version I quoted above, "word" for "word"? JackofOz 14:41, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I'm going to guess that among the Asian languages, the Korean and Japanese translations were very polite-- this can really add on alot of syllables. Perhaps this is part of the explanation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.236.49.81 (talk • contribs)

Since (as far as we know) there weren't any Korean or Japanese translations, I'd say probably not. :) Henry^Flower 12:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Here's a try for a

back-translation of the Vietnamese version, "word" for "word"

of Quý vị có thể xin thông ngôn viện ở đây. (as I think it should be)

quý

honorable

vị

part of "you", quý vị is a polite way of saying "you all"

có

have

thể

possibility – có thể means "can"

xin

to beg for, to request

thông

understand

ngôn

speak – thông ngôn just means "interpreter". It's a bit silly to split that one up, like "inter pret er".

viện

help – xin viện means "ask for help"

ở

at

đây

here – in fact ở đây means "here" in full

I hope this is somewhat what you were searching for... David 22:23, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks David. That's very enlightening. JackofOz 04:15, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Most nouns in formal writing are created in Chinese with 2 characters, and I can only assume the same for Vietnamese (and it seems to be so from David's great explanation!). Thus "interpreter" and "here" will automatically take 4 "words", although they're more like syllables.  freshofftheufoΓΛĿЌ  20:14, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

viện should be viên. Viên is similar to the suffix -er in English. "Thông ngôn viên", literally, is "understand speak person" or "interpreter". It is quite archaic. "Thông dịch viên" is usually used instead. DHN 12:19, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

Translation of the following into as many languages as possible.

I'd like to get a translation of the following into as many languages as possible. My own language skills only allow me to translate it it to poor Esperanto and even worse Malay, and Babelfish is far too... well, horrible. I appreciate any responses. My world is collapsing. People are aware but not that bothered. They casually avoid large parts of the structure as it falls to the earth. Taiq 14:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

German - Meine Welt stürzt ein. Die Leute sind gewahr aber haben keine Lust. Sie fechten großen Stücke des Aufbaus beiläufig an, während es zum Grund (or zur Erde if you mean the planet Earth) fällt.I hope that's right.- THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 15:17, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Leute is a plural noun in German. Otherwise, I'd go with Meine Welt bricht zusammen. Die Menschen wissen es aber es stört sie nicht. Sie umgehen unbekümmert die großen Stücke der Struktur, die zur Erde fallen. User:Angr 15:54, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks for the translations so far. To clarify a little, "the earth" refers to "the ground". Taiq 16:27, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Then, zu Boden may or may not be better, depends. It should be fällt instead of fallen since sie refers to the structure. Greatgavini's version sounds a lot like coming straight from Babelfish.--80.136.159.34 17:45, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

What? What's Babelfish??? And in case you hadn't noticed, "structure" is singular and masculine thus would not use sie. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 17:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Struktur is feminine (der Struktur is genitive singular feminine), but I intentionally used the plural of fallen to indicate that parts of the structure that are falling to the ground and people are walking casually around them, rather than that the entire structure is falling to the ground at once. User:Angr 18:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I meant Aufbau is masculine. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 07:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

The original says "it".--80.136.159.34 19:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Aye, that's right. It should be singular like the one in mine. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 07:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Dutch - "Mijn wereld stort in. De mensen realiseren zich dit, maar trekken zich er niet veel van aan. Ze ontwijken achteloos grote stukken van de structuur terwijl die ter aarde stort." The first sentence would more literally be "Mijn wereld is in aan het storten". The last bit coud be "... terwijl die op de grond valt", but I made it somewhat more poetic, in keeping with the style. I won't dare other languages with phrases like that. DirkvdM 16:50, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Hey, if he can use stort in for "collapse", then surely stürzt ein sounds alright for the German one, if not sounding a little "western".- THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 18:06, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't know Dutch, and German isn't my native language, but my non-native intuition of German says einstürzen is too literal for "My world is collapsing", though if the second part of the sentence had said the structure was collapsing, einstürzen would have been okay there. User:Angr 18:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Meine Welt bricht zusammen is idiomatic.--80.136.159.34 19:33, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

French - Mon monde s'écroule. Les gens sont bien avisés mais ça leur est bien égal. Ils évitent avec désinvolture de grands fragments de la structure pendant qu'elle tombe par terre. And I did not use Babelfish. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 18:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I'd rather have "Les gens sont au courant mais cela ne les dérange pas|cela leur est bien égal." -- DLL ^{.. T} 18:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

And what about: "... pendant qu'elle ..."? --Lambiam^Talk 02:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Is that when you use it? I thought it meant "during that". - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 07:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

For "during" followed by noun it's "pendant", but followed by a clause as here it's "pendant que".

I'd prefer to translate "people" as "on". Possibly something like "On est bien au courant, mais on s'en fiche." ("s'en fiche" is slightly idiomatic but not highly so I think.) And then "On évite" etc. --Zeborah 08:51, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Russian. Мой мир рушится. Люди это видят, но им нет до этого дела. Они небрежно уклоняются от падающих на землю больших кусков здания.—Ëzhiki (Igels Hérissonovich Ïzhakoff-Amursky) • (yo?); 19:13, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Spanish - Mi mundo se derrumba. Todos son conscientes pero les da igual. Evitan despreocupadamente los pedazos de la estructura al caer a la tierra. Some variants: se derrumba/se cae a pedazos; todos/la gente; son conscientes/están al corriente/lo saben; les da igual/no les molesta; a la tierra/al suelo.--RiseRover|^talk 19:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

In stead of 'son conscientes' I would have used 'se dan cuenta', but then my Spanish isn't that perfect. DirkvdM 09:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Igpay Atinlay: Ymay orldway isway ollapsingcay. Eoplepay areway awareway utbay otnay atthay otheredbay. Eythay asuallycay avoidway argelay artspay ofway ethay ucturestray asway itway allsfay otay ethay earthway.  ;-) hydnjo talk 19:20, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

In Syriac Aramaic it is:

ܥܠܡܝ ܗܘ ܢܦܠ

ܥܡܐ ܗܘ ܚܙܐ

ܐܠܐ ܗܢܘܢ

ܠܐ ܚܫܒܝܢ ܐܢܘܢ

ܡܬܦܪܩܝܢ ܐܢܘܢ

ܡܢ ܡܢܘܬܐ ܕܒܢܝܢܐ

ܐܝܟܢܐ ܗܘ

ܢܦܠ ܠܐܪܥܐ

which transliterates roughly as:

‘olamyu nofel

‘amau hoze

elo henun

lo-hoshbin enun

methparqin enun

men-menawotho d-venyono

aikano hu

nofel lar‘o

I hope that's OK. — Gareth Hughes 20:08, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Czech – Můj svět se hroutí. Lidé jsou si toho vědomi, ale nezajímá je to. Lhostejně se vyhýbají velkým kusům struktury, které padají k zemi. Daniel Šebesta (talk • contribs) 22:55, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

1337 - |\/|y w0|21|) 15 c0ll@p51n6. Ppl @|23 @w@|23 8u7 n07 807h3|23d. 7h3y c@5u@11y @v01d 1@|263 p@|275 0|= 7h3 57|2u(7u|23 @5 17 |=@115 70 7h3 3@|27h. schyler 23:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Turkish – Dünyam çökiyor. İnsanlar duyuyor ama endişesi yokmuş. Yere düşen bünyenin büyük parçaları raslantısal çekiniyorlar. --Lambiam^Talk 02:47, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Scots - Ma warld's comin in. Folk is awaur bot nae gey fasht. Thay owerlie jouk lairge dauds o tha framewark while hit fa's tae tha grun. I'd like to point out that, me being me, it's not worth going by my translations. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 13:12, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Swedish - Min värld rasar ihop. Folk vet om det men det bekommer dem inte så mycket. Obekymrade går de runt stora stycken från strukturen medan det hela faller till marken. Corrections or other help welcome, as Swedish is not my first language. (I'm specifically dissatisfied with my use of strukturen for the structure, but I couldn't think of anything better.) --Tkynerd 18:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Possibly Min värld faller samman." Then either folk "är medvetna om det/"vet om det" or "märker det" (notice it), "men bryr sig inte". "De undviker obekymrat stora stycken av massan(?) medan den faller till marken", possibly. I sure would like to know what context this is for...

"Hebrew - "עולמי נופל. אנשים יודעים אבל לא אכפת להם כל כך. הם מתרחקים באופן מקרי מהחלקים הגדולים של המבנה כשהוא נופל ארצה" which would be transliterated (with ch representing the voiceless fricative chet or chaf) as " 'Olami nophel. Anashim yod'im aval lo echpat lahem kol kach. Hem mitrachaqim ba'ophen miqri mehachalaqim hag'dolim shel hamivneh k'sh'hu nophel artza." СПУТНИК^{CCC P} 18:02, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Norwegian - Min verden faller samme. Folk vet om det, men bryr seg ikke. De unngår ubekymret store deler av strukturen etterhvert som den faller til bakken -- Tsaetre 20:51, 13 August 2006 (UTC)

Arabic..

العالم ينهار من حولي,الناس يعلمون ذلك ولكنهم لا يكترثون,انهم غالبا يحاولون تجنب الحطام المتساقط من الهيكل على الأرض

IPA for "Gisele Bündchen"

Could anyone provide the IPA for Gisele Bündchen's name? Note that:

Gisele's name is actually pronounced Giseli (The e at the end of her name is not silent). She has said it doesn't matter to her now how people pronounce her name. Her last name is pronounced "Bindchen". -- Zanimum 15:48, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Now there's a challenge: how is a German name pronounced by Portuguese speakers. Gisele is [ˈgiːzələ] in German but probably [ʒiˈzɛli] in Brazilian Portuguese. Bündchen is [ˈbʏntçən] in German, but since Portuguese has neither [ʏ] nor [ç] it's anyone's guess how the name is pronounced in Brazil. [ˈbĩtʃẽ], maybe? User:Angr 15:58, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Is there any way to list the Brazillian pronouncation and German prounciation together at the start of an article? Or should it be mentioned in the footnote explaining the IPA? I've added the German pron. for now. -- Zanimum 16:12, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

I agree with Angr: this is an interesting one. Does anyone know which is her first language? I've added the IPA for the German and supposed Brazilian Portuguese pronunciations to the ref. — Gareth Hughes 18:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

It seems to me a really bad idea to start guessing how her name is pronounced in order to put it in the article. Since no-one here seems to know whether she uses a German, Brazilian, or other pronunciation, badly-educated guesses are worse than nothing. Henry^Flower 20:49, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

However, there is a good chance that her family is still German-speaking, and uses the German pronunciation. However, Bünchen's statement that it doesn't matter how it's pronounced could be something to do with her being used to hearing a Portuguese pronunciation of her name. It is highly unlikely that she would pronounce her name in any other way than these two. As a Brazilian citizen of German descent, both pronunciations have some merit. — Gareth Hughes 21:01, 9 August 2006 (UTC)

Her family is 6th Generation Brazilian, and hardly anybody in the Germanic regions of Brazil even knows German anymore, let alone speaks it as a first language. Gisele's name is pronounced in Brazil according to Portuguese Brazilian pronunciation. The e at the end of her first name is not silent and the "ü" in her last name is pronounced like it is almost not even there. In America they generally pronounce her first name wrong- a decision she decided at the onset of her career to simply live with and not bother correcting. Caroline Trentini suffers a similar problem but solved it by having Americans call her "Carol" rather than listen to them butcher the end. They pronounce Gisele's last name a variety of inconsistent ways in America. Sometimes correct in Portuguese. Sometimes correct in German. Sometimes some weird American English bastardization. But she is so famous now they hardly bother with the last name anymore.Bogan444 (talk) 19:28, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

I strongly doubt her family would apply German pronunciation rules to Gisele. It's not a German name I've ever heard of – I guess it's a version of French Gisèle sans diacritics, or perhaps a Portuguese form. If it's German, it's probably an affective or dialectal form of Gisela, a fairly common name some decades ago. Wikipeditor 00:25, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I looked on Youtube, and it looks like Angr is close. The host shown in this clip pronounces it [ʒiˈzɛli ˈbĩtʃĩ]. Gustavo Kuerten's last name was pronounced [ˈkiɾtẽ]. Also, it's interesting to note that the word ü in über-model was pronounced [ju]. --Chris S. 05:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Aug 10

crossword help

can u help me with these clues

severe addict's practice (5-7)(*h*I*SELLING)

Shirt selling ? StuRat 07:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Chain smoking?--Shantavira 07:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Child selling.Thylacoleo 01:34, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

kind of cattle (10)B*G*a*o

Bighorn ? StuRat 07:04, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Bighorns are sheep. —Bkell (talk) 19:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Buffalo?--Shantavira 07:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Buggalo? :-D - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 07:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

everything possible -british film (**E*U***L*T*)

How many words? Closest I can come up with is Without Limits.--Shantavira 08:56, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Could be The Full Monty, assuming the L is wrong. Thylacoleo 01:39, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

corporal punishment (*I*O*T*E*E**)

Guillotine?--Shantavira 07:48, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think Madame Guillotine would be appropiate for corporal punishment... - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 07:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, that would be more like decapital punishment. =S 惑乱 分からん 09:53, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

HIT ON THE LEGS . JackofOz 10:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Very clever! By way of digression, corporal punishment is punishment to the body. My dictionaries don't suggest that it excludes capital punishment.--Shantavira 14:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

irregular (*I*F**)

Fitful?--Shantavira 07:39, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Sinful? JackofOz 10:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Misfit? —Bkell (talk) 19:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

thanks in advancMightright 04:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)e

french help

hi im learning french at school but i was wondering if there were any mnemonics or something like that to help me remember irregular french verbs that have to be conjugated with 'etre' in 'passe compose ' and aslo if there were any rules to conjugating the first group ,second group and third group verbsMightright 05:45, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I was taught DR. & MRS. P. VANDERTRAMP. It stands for the verbs: devenir, revenir, monter, rester, sortir, passer, venir, aller, naître, descendre, entrer, rentrer, tomber, retourner, arriver, mourrir, and partir. --Chris S. 05:59, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

For 'etre' my class learnt "Mrs Van Der Tramp". I've found two links about this: [9] and [10].

For verb conjugations, yes and no... that is, there are lots of rules: there are regularities but there are still things that you just need to memorise. Is there a specific tense or person you're having problems with? --Zeborah 06:06, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

There is, but I might not be as convenient for you as for me, a mnemonic for word order : veerfles =voir, envoyer, écouter, regarder, faire, laisser, envoyer, sentir Usually you say : Je veux le battre. Je vais le manger.

But when you use any of these as auxiliary verb: Je le laisse travailler. Evilbu 11:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

That's true. You just need to know the auxiliary verbs in English and their French equivalents. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T-C} 13:17, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Oh by the way, it's être, not etre. But maybe not having an AZERTY (like me!) might be the cause of that? Evilbu 14:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Ha! We learned MMT DRAPERS VAN. Which is a rubbish mnemonic. As opposed to other splendid mnemonics we learned in other subjects, such as "Many naughty rabbits eat green rhubarb roots" (characteristics of living organisms) and "Smiles of happiness come after having tankards of ale" (usually taught as SOH CAH TOA!) --Dweller 14:55, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Yeah, we had that. Someone in the class came up with TRAMP VENDS RAM. I'll chuck it at an anagram generator and see if it can come up with anything better... watch this space. ---- No, nothing much... at least within the output that I can be bothered to sift through. Arbitrary username 17:24, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

If you're not into mathematics you might not care, but you can also use French to make mnemonics : Tu aideras à rappeler ta quantité à beaucoup de docteurs amis. 2. 7 1 8 2 8 1 8 2 8 4 which are the first digits of e. Evilbu 20:49, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Under what circumstances would a month or day not be capitalized?

See title. (other than "may") --mboverload@ 07:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

In English, names of months and days are always capitalised. When it refers to the month, "May" is always capitalised; it's only "may" if it's being used as the verb. --Zeborah 08:43, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Thanks, I just wanted to brainstorm before I commit it to WP:RETF =D --mboverload@ 09:08, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

There's also the noun and verb march; june isn't necessarily capitalized in june bug; and there's the adjective august. User:Angr 09:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

What about April fool? (And is 'April's fool' proper English?) DirkvdM 09:31, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

April is always capitalised. The day is April Fool's Day, and the victim of such cruel and unusual punishment is called an April Fool. JackofOz 09:57, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Days and months are capitalized because they take their names from various ancient gods. A common error is to capitalize the names of the seasons as well, but these should be lower case.--Shantavira 15:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

What is the difference between 'April fool' and 'june bug', then? DirkvdM 03:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

I suppose if some poet, like ee cummings, refuses to capitalize them, then that case should be preserved in any quotations of that poet, as well. StuRat 16:05, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

All august men may march. --Lambiam^Talk 19:20, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Possession in Japanese.

I need someone to check my Japanese symbol choices and grammar for me, thanks in advance!

魚 - this is ("Sakana") fish?

雄 - this is the name "Tetsuo"?

Put like this: 魚雄 would mean "Tetsuo's Fish", right? Or is it done differently? -- 69.138.61.168 07:41, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

you have to add a "no" between the possessor and the possessed: 雄の魚--K.C. Tang 07:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

I don't think 雄 is the name "Tetsuo", actually. There's several dozen ways of writing names, depending on the individual, but I don't think that's one of them. --Ptcamn 19:19, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Here are some common ways of writing the name "Tetsuo": 铁男 (as in the SciFi horror flic) • 鉄雄 (as in Tetsuo Shima) • 哲男 • 哲徃 • 哲応 • 哲暢 • 天津夫. --Lambiam^Talk 20:26, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

If you're intending "Tetsuo's fish", then "Tetsuoの魚" is it. 雄 alone does not mean any specific thing. The possible kanji options for Tetsuo are: for "Tetsu" = 哲, 徹 or 鉄; for "o" = 雄, 夫, 男, 郎, or 生; choose a kanji from each, then put them together. These are quite common kanjis -- for more, google (and you'll get something like this).

If you would like to know the meaning of 魚雄, I don't know such a word... Google says there's a sushi restaurant of the name. --marsian 03:57, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

cree word for

loaf and relax

meanings

213.165.161.214I came across a word 'imminant' i can't seem to find a meaning for it anywhere in british english .. does it mean exactly the same as imminent? is it american? or does it have a different meaning altogether?

I'd say it's just a typo for imminent. Or maybe eminent. User:Angr 17:50, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Or a really bad typo for "immigrant". What context is it used in? - THE GREAT GAVINI {T|C|#} 18:30, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Or "immanent"? · rodii · 19:01, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Was it in a Wikipedia article? Because anyone can edit them, spellings in Wikipedia articles are not reliable. I've just found and corrected three instances of that word.--Shantavira 18:38, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

That's probably it then. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T|C|#} 19:46, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

Wikipedia isn't the only one. Googling 'imminant' on English sites gives 18400 hits, 4 of which in Wikipedia. 3 of which were old versions, already corrected, and 1 in a talk page archive. DirkvdM 04:03, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

language

what countries speak English as a homelanguage

"Home" language? Take a jouk at Image:Anglospeak.png - it might be what you're looking for. - THE GREAT GAVINI {T|C|#} 19:44, 10 August 2006 (UTC)

"jouk"? JackofOz 00:19, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Yes, imminantly. DirkvdM 04:04, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Meaning of a mantra

11 August 2006

Sir/Madam:

Somebody sent me a text saying it is a mantra - "Laxmi Devigeni Namo" Do you know what this means?

Thanks. ---- luz dg. galang email: %deleted%

See these answers. --Lambiam^Talk 01:50, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

The whole point of a mantra is that it's not supposed to mean anything at all. Whilever you focus on something that has a meaning to you, you're defeating the purpose of meditation, which is about clearing the conscious mind as far as possible. JackofOz 04:12, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

Despite what you say, om mani padme hum does have lexical meaning(s). If he/she's curious, let him/her be curious. ;) --Kjoonlee 05:59, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

palatal fricative

Okay, this is kind of a weird question. If you try to make the [ʒ] or [ʃ] sound without actually touching the roof of the mouth, is the resluting sound a palatal fricative? KeeganB