Talk:1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre

Error in quotation of Kristof's figures

Nicholas Kristof (Reference [5]) is quoted twice in the text of the article. The first quotation is incorrect, giving figures of 2000 soldiers & policemen and 1000 to 3000 civilians killed. The second quotation is correct. The figures he gives in [5] are "about a dozen soldiers and policemen were killed, along with 400 to 800 civilians" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.41.251 (talk)

Confusing narrative

In the sections explaining the backgrounds of the protests, it seems like the majority of the newfound problems and hardships were created by the reform, and yet the protest against these problems were somehow in favour of the reform? Is there something they left out here? Because that seems contradictory.

Curious omissions

It's a little curious that there isn't a single picture of the protests (especially in terms of their scale) or the aftermath of the massacre in an otherwise long article, including some of the most historically famous and important pictures of the twentieth century, when these are widely available on the web and attached to practically every major article on the matter elsewhere.

Are Chinese Commies doing a little whitewashing here? On a website that is itself blocked in Mainland China but tells the truth elsewhere? Is anyone keeping a watch on this? I find it rather curious at least. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Isaiahchd (talk • contribs) 04:18, 27 December 2017 (UTC)

As far as I can tell, all the usual iconic images are copyrighted in a way that is not compatible with the license Wikipedia uses (CC BY-SA). See WP:COPYVIO for more general info on this. There are policies about using "non-free" images, but I don't think they apply here. See WP:FAIRUSE. Unfortunately these sorts of legal issues sometimes limit what can be on Wikipedia. If you know of any photos that are not copyrighted, then please add them or link them here. You can also try writing the owners of the images and ask them to release the images under a CC BY-SA or equivalent license. I don't think this is a case of whitewashing or censorship, as the responsible parties are the photographers and photo agencies like Getty Images. BananaCarrot152 (talk) 19:49, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

There are also claims that most of those images are in fact montaged fakes. Tank Man is considered the only 100% true photo of those events. If you want to go through all the pain of finding out if photos in question are legitimate and are ready to defend the article 24/7, be my guest. Not to mention what a disaster it would be if your choice would be one of actually proven fakes. And that's on top of problems mentioned by BananaCarrot152. Feel free to invest yourself into this task, Isaiahchd. 93.84.8.49 (talk) 00:52, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

There's no way that china controls the entire internet. If you look at Google images today and try to look for photos of the massacres, there's an alarmingly lack of it. In fact, I honestly cannot find any western visual sources of actual massacres aka bloody scenario where thousands of people were killed and dead bodies lined the streets in the thousands or video link of massacres. I did find a photo of a burnt-out man hanged from a bridge but he was a police officer and a photo of a "dead" protester lifting his fist up in the air whilst lying down.

The reality is that most of the tiananmen sqaure legitimacy is strongly dependent on the verbal interviews with some of the former students who later got asylum visas from the US and journalists who insisted that the soldiers charged at the students in the square with deadly force, that even the statue was just "riddled with bullets".

I found a forum discussing this.

https://www.theguardian.com/notesandqueries/query/0,5753,-2317,00.html

Should we include in the article that most of the evidence proving tiananmen sqaure massacres is not based on actual visual evidence but primarily on verbal witness reports? 120.17.10.143 (talk) 07:50, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

89 Democracy Movement- a misnomer?

I am not sure whether my memory is obscured a little as the event happened almost 30 years ago, but I remembered the protesters at the time wanted China to return to the good old days of hard communism where jobs are for life, in what they call an "iron-ricebowl" job. The idea that the protest was for democracy was an invention of the western media. The protesters were protesting against capitalism rather than communism. Are there anyone else who can remember what the protesters were prostesting about and want to share their memories here? 2A00:23C5:C10B:A300:78BE:A870:F6F8:3293 (talk) 03:06, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Yes, your memory is obscured (read the article to help clear things up) and please read WP:NOTFORUM. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 03:10, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Reading the article as suggested by NeilN, I have to agree with the poster. As stated in the article, the protests were against the rapid economic and social changes. It was therefore an anti-capitalism protest. Also the English translation of "89 Democracy Movement" could very well be a misnomer in English because from the Chinese, the English translation of "89 People's Campaign" is also valid. I suggest NeilN abide by his own advice to others and begin to read the article for himself and stop taking political sides. 109.158.44.68 (talk) 23:13, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Democracy is loosely termed here. In a nutshell, Hu Yaobang was the second most powerful man in China after Deng Xiaoping in the 80s. In his last decade, HU wanted increasing public consultation before determining Party policy. It's not actually democracy perse but it had democratic values. The students wanted more transparency and hence less corruption. Hu was powerful and influential. His death sparked the 89 protest. The west maybe oversimplified what the students were protesting for. They were not against communism because like Vietnam, they were convinced of educated political meritocracy in determining economic policies. However they wanted more transparency and to be at least consulted. Not the same thing as actual representative democracy or voting in the west.

However the term "89 democracy movement" is indeed a western title. But it is ingrained for so long that it is better to just keep it. However, I agree it should be better clarified in the article that the protests were more about corruption than blunt democracy. And to give more credence to the context story of Deng Xiaoping vs Hu and their disagreement over economic policies and reforms. Which created the protests. 120.17.10.143 (talk) 08:17, 3 April 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 15 October 2018

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Consensus to move to proposed title. Only oppose is STRONG but is entirely based on arguing that the current title should be acceptable but does not indicate why it's preferable beyond being status quo. Others all favor move. (non-admin closure) В²C ☎ 19:27, 25 October 2018 (UTC)

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Tiananmen Square protests of 1989 → 1989 Tiananmen Square protests – WPMOS is generally YEAR event, not event of YEAR, vide 1989 Loma Prieta earthquake Kintetsubuffalo (talk) 17:59, 15 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support. The relevant guideline is Wikipedia:Naming conventions (events), and the proposed destination would conform to that guideline. --Bsherr (talk) 18:59, 15 October 2018 (UTC)
• Sure, why not. Not the most controversial of moves. CapnZapp (talk) 05:07, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support Surprised it has stayed at this title for so long, as WP:NCE is pretty clear about this. AusLondonder (talk) 17:45, 16 October 2018 (UTC)
• STRONG OPPOSE – NCE is actually clearer about this than Mr Londoner thinks. Prior to a unilateral change to the guideline in 2015, it specifically mentioned this article's format, using this article as an example, as an acceptable style. Are you fellows really going to allow one editor, who changed the guidelines without consensus or discussion, to dictate how we title articles? This article was SPECIFICALLY MENTIONED as an example of an acceptable style. What an absolute absurdity, honestly... RGloucester — ☎ 19:46, 20 October 2018 (UTC)
• Support regardless of how the guideline came to fruition, the general style of events is YEAR event, and it makes no sense for this to be any different. There is nothing otherwise problematic with the "YEAR event" format. feminist (talk) 17:09, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

There is quite a lot problematic with that style, and it is in no way a 'general' style. The relevant topic here is 'Tiananmen Square protests'. The year is only added for disambiguation from other such protests. It is natural for the most important piece of information, the subject, to come first, and the disambiguation second, per the usual way of writing in English: 'event of year'. The present title is also more common in reliable sources, and hence per WP:TITLECHANGES, there is no reason to move the article from the present title. RGloucester — ☎ 22:30, 22 October 2018 (UTC)

But is there anything to suggest that sources using "of 1989" are doing so deliberately as opposed to just indiscriminately choosing that syntax? It's quite fair to say the style specified in the guideline is the general style. While there is merit to disambiguating at the end of the title, there is also merit to a shorter title by avoiding the prepositional phrase, and, as said above, in uncomplicated situations, which to use should be decided for all articles, not for each article individually. A good reason to change a title, consistent with WP:TITLECHANGES, is conformance to naming conventions. --Bsherr (talk) 13:50, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

But the naming conventions are basically an essay written by one editor. Prior to that tampering, this article was specifically listed as an example of a good style. You are subverting the policy and guidelines by supporting this move. RGloucester — ☎ 15:38, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

The guideline is still labeled a guideline. I don't know how it is technically possible to tamper with Wikipedia, since all changes made are transparently documented in the page history. Guidelines frequently change as consensus changes. You've started a discussion on the talk page of the guideline, which is the right way to address this. If and when the guideline changes again, this article can be renamed again to be consistent with any change to the guideline. --Bsherr (talk) 13:38, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

'Transparency' relies on people actually knowing about the existence of the page and watching it, which is a big ask...not to mention the unrelated edit summary. The guidelines before did not favour either form, so 'being consistent with the guideline' is not the issue. The issue is making a nonsense change on no basis other than whim. RGloucester — ☎ 21:05, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

• Support: pretty minor move to a slightly shorter title which retains all the meaning. Jonathunder (talk) 14:37, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

What about people who don't know the year of the event, which, to be fair, will be most of our audience? They know they're searching for Tiananmen Square protests, and will put that into the search box...instead of coming right here, they'll be sent on a wild goose chase because some people think a title that is two characters shorter is somehow better. It simply isn't natural to put disambiguation first. That'd be like writing (country) Georgia for Georgia (country). I appeal to you fellows, use your god-given heads. RGloucester — ☎ 15:42, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Tiananmen Square protests is a redirect to this article and will still be if it moves. Jonathunder (talk) 17:36, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Indeed, but there is no reason to move the article away from the title that most people are likely to type and search for, to a strange title cast in Wikipedianese. See the WP:NATURALNESS criteria of WP:AT. RGloucester — ☎ 17:40, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

Amnesty International UK uses "1989 Tiananmen Square protests" as do about 36k other websites, per Google. It's hardly a strange title. Jonathunder (talk) 18:53, 23 October 2018 (UTC)

That usage is rooted in headlinese, where space is at a premium, but it's not a natural way to write in English. We've got unlimited space...so we should use the natural title that people are most likely to search for. The original purpose of the 'year-first' style on Wikipedia was for recent events with no clear common name...retroactively applying it to historical events makes no sense. RGloucester — ☎ 21:02, 24 October 2018 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Proposed standardization of citations/references

The citation styles used are a mishmash. In order to pick one style and stick with it". I propose standardizing the system in the same manner as Aristotle. I will happily do so within a few days, unless other have persuasive arguments against it.. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 07:43, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

• Still working on this. It's a big task. May take a couple weeks longer. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 13:17, 25 March 2019 (UTC)
  • Moved into mainspace... About 95% done ... there were about 370 inconsistent refs etc and I've pared it down to just over 20... but I'm moving it into mainspace now because in the final stages of the task I found myself changing content and adding a couple sentences in order to make the last few of the more inaccurate or outdated cites consistent with sources.... there are also I suspect several duplicate sources in the Sources section, largely an artifact of different editors repeatedly adding different editions of the same book or other similar mistakes. I will continue fixing the article's references bit by bit here over the next couple of days or so. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 02:41, 31 March 2019 (UTC)

Delete and/or split to separate dissidents article

Some parts of this article are a huge mess. Poor referencing throughout, for example... The article is much too long and dwells excessively on peripheral details. Many details could be trimmed or removed entirely. As a first step, for example, remove the entire "List of 21 most wanted student leaders" section and all discussion of what happened to dissidents in their later lives. This can be split off to a separate article if desired, although in fact much of the text is simply deletable. See forex the entire huge table in the "List of 21 most wanted student leaders". Clearly there is exactly zero utility in the knowledge that "Wang Zhengyun... [Lived at that time in] Nanke District, Jinping County, Honghe Prefecture, Yunnan Province...[and was/had] 167 cm tall, thin and long-faced, dark-yellow eyes, small dots, Yunnan accent". Delete, do not move, that table... in fact, I'll start on that soon. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 00:43, 20 March 2019 (UTC)

A poll can help a lot Dheerajmpai23 (talk)

Thank you for stopping by. All of that text was spun off to another article. The text deals with events decades after the incident and is therefore beyond the scope of this article. Poll unnecessary. Removal non-controversial housekeeping. Now reverting your deletion. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 15:42, 21 March 2019 (UTC)

delete the "Cultural references" section, perhaps moving Tank Man text

The article is too long. The "Cultural references" section sheds no light on the event, mentions events that are peripheral, trivial and/or outdated. Suggest deleting, with possibility that there may be a sentence or two about Tank Man that can be moved up to June 5 section, where he is already mentioned. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 16:37, 23 March 2019 (UTC)

• Done ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 13:16, 25 March 2019 (UTC)

@Lingzhi2, you changed "Elders" (as in Eight Elders) back to "elders" throughout the page. I would expect a capital letter since it refers to eight specific named individuals, not any older party members as implied by "elders". If the latter is used in most sources, however, I have no problem with it. Is that the case? You did not explain your edit. zzz (talk) 00:15, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

@Signedzzz Oh! That change wasn't deliberate (but see thoughts below). I accidentally undid some recent edits when I moved the ref edits from userspace. I actually told myself to check for that possibility, then forgot having reminded myself... Having said that, I feel this article uses the term "elders" in a loose and slapdash manner. For example, in the most important meeting of all relevant to this topic, the 17 May meeting in Deng's home, there were only 5 + Deng. And until yesterday, the article just said "the party elders approved Deng's plan of martial law" without saying which elders, how many elders, whether it was unanimous, etc. In fact, this whole article has a "cobbled together by dozens of editors" feel to it. It makes the whole article kinda loose-knit and relatively weak. So... although I didn't alter "eight elders" on purpose, now that you brought it up, I think everything should be cited carefully, PREFERABLY to a reliable English-language source. I hope to replace some of those Chinese-language sources as time goes on. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 00:51, 1 April 2019 (UTC)

More trimming: Suggest deleting "Documentaries" section

Suggest deleting the "Documentaries" section. It doesn't tell useful info such as whether documentaries had an impact on Chinese perceptions etc., it just lists documentaries. It is, in short, quite spammish, and should be deleted. Some links can perhaps be moved to "External links". Will wait a few days before deleting. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 12:18, 10 April 2019 (UTC)

Eh, it's so very spamlike that I'll just go ahead and do that now. ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 05:55, 11 April 2019 (UTC)

Name on the Most Wanted List redirects to a king from 500 BC

In the Arrests and punishment section, Xiong Wei redirects to King Ling of Chu. :/ – XYZt (talk  |  contribs) – 05:10, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

{{sofixit}} ♦ Lingzhi2 (talk) 05:35, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

@Lingzhi2: I actually don't know much about the topic. Does he actually have an article? Otherwise it would be better just to delink it. – XYZt (talk  |  contribs) – 06:21, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

I have removed the link. --Bsherr (talk) 23:17, 16 April 2019 (UTC)

British ambassador Donald citation

Does anyone have strong feelings about keeping or removing the "declassified documents" section of the "death toll" part of the article? The article, picked up by tabloid-style Hong Kong newspapers, contradict not only what is documented by more reliable sources such as BBC and the New York Times' contemporaneous account, but also some details are readily falsifiable - such as the 27th Army being "60% illiterate and from Shanxi", described as a fact in the declassified files. In fact the 27th Army is from Shijiazhuang. Just does not seem like a very reliable account. Colipon+(Talk) 18:24, 20 April 2019 (UTC)

Going twice on this. Any objections or strong opinions on this one way or another? Colipon+(Talk) 22:07, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

Going three times on this. If there are no objections, I intend to remove that section from the article as it stands. Colipon+(Talk) 16:16, 26 April 2019 (UTC)

Not only "tabloid-style Hong Kong newspapers"

SCMP

https://www.scmp.com/news/china/diplomacy-defence/article/2156285/sir-alan-donald-british-ambassador-beijing-during

AFP

https://www.france24.com/en/20171223-10000-killed-chinas-1989-tiananmen-crackdown-british-archive

Deutsche Welle

https://www.dw.com/en/secret-cable-10000-killed-in-chinas-1989-tiananmen-crackdown/a-41918713 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.186.92.27 (talk) 01:07, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Since the page is protecting now, can someone help me to readd the declassified documents section with those new sources? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.186.92.27 (talk) 01:29, 29 May 2019 (UTC)

Lead Picture

The lead picture of the article should be changed to one of closer context to the incident and higher importance. I feel like the current image does not represent the whole article well, it does not even show the incident and is taken before. Maybe a picture which shows scenes of mass protests or the moments of military actions would fit better. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Fahambnd (talk • contribs) 16:57, 30 May 2019 (UTC) The lead photo most likely appropriate would be the image commonly know as 'tank man' that is associated with this incident. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 64.60.151.170 (talk) 19:03, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 1 June 2019

The title, "1989 Tiananmen Square protests" should be changed to "1989 Tiananmen Square Massacre", and it should be the default, the "protests" version can redirect to the "Massacre" version. It started with protests, but it is most known by the ending MASSACRE! 98.110.246.227 (talk) 02:10, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

 Not done. Please propose a proper title change. El_C 02:13, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Requested move 1 June 2019

1989 Tiananmen Square protests → 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre – The notability of this event is a consequence of the massacre, not of the protest. Naming it otherwise feels a bit euphamistic to me. Several other pages, most with smaller death tolls and/or less political consequence, use the "massacre" language. SirCmpwn (talk) 14:01, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

• A little piece of support: The titles of the sources at the end of the page mentions "massacre" 13 times, but "protests" only 5 times. --Omar Elrefaei (talk) 15:26, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

• I think the OP is probably correct, but I did find that "1989 Tiananmen Square protests" has more Ghits than "1989 Tiananmen Square massacre". In any event, searching for either term will lead to this page. Praemonitus (talk) 17:32, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
  • You're right. Oppose the page move as unnecessary, since both terms are used to describe this topic, though the "protests" title is more common. 100.12.186.112 (talk) 18:50, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
  • I get the opposite result, and a brief survey of a few friends from around the world showed wildy inconsistent results for the number of hits for each phrase. Google hits are not an appropriate metric for measuring anything, they're basically made up. SirCmpwn (talk) 21:23, 1 June 2019 (UTC)
• I Support this change, as the start of the article says it is commonly known in Mainland China as 六四事件 or June Fourth Incident, which is a reference to the massacre that took place 4 June 1989, not the protest itself. In any case, the notability of this event comes from the forceful shutdown, which should be reflected in the title. NagekiGirl (talk) 00:11, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose The protests lasted for more than a month, while the massacre occurred in a single day, which is likely why "protests" has more google hits. -Zanhe (talk) 08:32, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose The protests lasted weeks, culminating in the massacre. As this article covers the full chronological scope of the protests it should not be named after the one terrible incident that finished off the protests. Actually, I think it would be a good idea to separate the massacre off into its own article. BabelStone (talk) 09:50, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose --Havsjö (talk) 12:21, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
• I Support the change. A massacre is more notable than a protest. The term "protest" hides the severity of what happened. The event is mainly remembered for the killing. Joreberg (talk) 13:14, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
• I Support the change as well. Changing the title to massacre can highlight the importance of the event better than protest. Phantom-LF (talk) 18:00, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
• Support proposed name. After having searched w/ title keyword "massacre" and then finding it REDIRECTed to article name w/ title word "protests", the title smacked of being watered-down and caused me to wonder why WP is in the business of obscuring or even sanitizing the true nature. (I searched to read today as an interested reg reader, so for sure other casual readers will feel ditto.) --IHTS (talk) 18:20, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Thought experiment: 50 yrs from now (assuming WP still exists in some form), a 25-yr-old Western person comes across the article w/ title word "protests". Knowing nothing about the topic, they start reading. (Shock! They learn thru reading, there was an associated massacre.) Same experiment w/ title word "massacre". (No shock. They learn thru reading, there was an associated student protest. There had to be some reason or another for the grouping of persons massacred.) --IHTS (talk) 23:04, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
• I Support this change, I fully agree with Joreberg and IHTS. Blue Wiki (talk) 19:21, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose: there have been numerous attempts to move this page from "protests" to "massacre" in the past without achieving consensus, largely owing to concerns about neutrality and also the scope of coverage. Is there some reason to believe that in the 15 years that this article existed under this title that somehow Consensus Has Changed? What is the reason for the change now? While it's true the Chinese term refers to June 4th specifically -- if the "proper" Chinese title were used - it would be "June Fourth incident", something that would not strike a cord with English readers. Secondly, the article covers the entire '89 democracy movement, including extensive discussions of the causes, and a chronicle of key events leading up to the military actions - they comprise the majority of the page, and hence the article adequately captures the month-long movement as a whole. Colipon+(Talk) 21:18, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Can you clarfify with links to previous discussions? I searched through the archives before making this proposal and came up empty. SirCmpwn (talk) 22:06, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Agreed. It's pretty easy to use, "This has been discussed before," as a reason to not consider this move, but if we can't see the reason that consensus was achieved, then it has no bearing on what decision people would come to now. Steviemjh (talk) 22:32, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
    • You can obtain the past discussions by simply searching for "massacre" or "title" in the talk page archive section above. There isn't necessarily any contention in whether or not the massacre took place, or the heavy moral content behind the events, the larger question is whether or not it is the best title for the contents of this article as a whole. You will notice that there is a specific article dedicated to the PLA's role, and details related to the military actions on June 4, over at People's Liberation Army at the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests. I believe that article is perhaps more closely aligned with the subject matter related to the massacre itself, while this article deals more broadly with the 'movement'. Also note that, - and I stress this is not moral equivocation but merely in the interests of accuracy - that the massacre of civilians took place outside of Tiananmen - making the "Tiananmen Massacre" a very imprecise, albeit popular misnomer. Colipon+(Talk) 02:57, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
      • And "Chinese Checkers" is not Chinese, nor checkers. (So I think the "not in Tiananmen" misnomer-argument is a distraction since it is per WP policy the name by which the topic is popularly known. The misnomer issue can be addressed/clarified in one lead sentence.) --IHTS (talk) 03:10, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• I Support the change as well. This article has a lot of information regarding the protests before the massacre, but the fact that there isn't a standalone page for the massacre itself detracts from the importance of the event. For example: Would the protests have continued if the massacre (or some other violent crackdown) had not happened? Probably. So I would argue that the massacre, by ending the protests violently, is one of the most important aspects of the entire event. Steviemjh (talk) 22:32, 2 June 2019 (UTC)
• I Support. To those concerned with neutrality, I would counter that there is much more nuance than it may seem. I'm sure everyone can agree that history is not and cannot be objective, and the words we use to describe past events carry resonance into the future. What is most resonant about this event in history is less the protests themselves than it is the government's use of military force to quell these otherwise peaceful protestors, and the countless individuals who were massacred in consequence. For this reason, I believe the descriptor "protests" is not as neutral as it may seem, as it detracts from the gravity of this event, one that the Chinese Communist Party to this day is intent on diminishing. For those stating that this matter has already been discussed and need not be discussed again, I believe the increased coverage of the event by virtue of Jiang Lin's recent decision to share her experience has impelled many to reconsider how we talk about this event. Lastly, to those who argue that the massacre does not cover the chronological span of the protests leading up to June 4, 1989, the point is well taken. If that is the case, I would strongly support the creation of the Tiananmen Square Massacre as its own page. Thanks Paige marks (talk) 05:19, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Someone's welcome create a page on its own, that does not describe what this article is about. Viztor (talk) 07:30, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
  • As I did further digging, there is already an article on the details of the martial law being applied on June 4th here. Viztor (talk) 07:33, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose The article is talking about the protest as a whole. The protest itself is notable. --94rain ^Talk 09:13, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Hi, I have the feeling that this article is more about the movements and protests that ultimately led to the massacre, and not the massacre exclusively, so naming it "Tiananmen Square massacre" would leave the rest of the article out of the title. As previously mentioned by Viztor there's already this article talking about the killing specifically. However, the issue I see is that people searching for information about the subject are often more preoccupied with the massacre itself than the protests leading up to it, and yet it's more likely they find this article (the one we're posting on) more easily than the other one. --Koopanique (talk) 09:28, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose Changing the title to massacre downplays the students' efforts and shifts the focus onto the government. The rare display of disobedience in China threatened the existence of the CCP had a much greater impact on the policies, mindset and leadership of the Chinese government. The fact that thousands died means nothing to them. --Meeepmep (talk) 13:16, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
  • The massacre and subsequent crackdowns deserve an article by itself. Maybe by merging parts of this article with People's Liberation Army at the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests? --Meeepmep (talk) 13:52, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• Support Especially since recently declassified material suggests that over ten-thousand were killed.--2601:444:380:3A90:F5D5:447C:3EBF:A833 (talk) 18:04, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• Comment A couple of months ago, repeated efforts were made by one or more users to change the name protests to massacre, often only in the disamb notice. These attempts were made by IP addresses and also by red-linked accounts that were only used for these edits, or for very fewer others. We now have that same pattern appearing in this RM. Several of the accounts stating "I Support" (an unusual construction) have only edited this page, or a few others, or have not been used for years before this discussion. This includes the nominating editor SirCmpwn [1], Paige marks [2], NagekiGirl [3], Phantom-LF [4] and perhaps others. A sockpuppet inquiry may be appropriate before any finding of consensus for Support is made here. Laszlo Panaflex (talk) 20:09, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• Weak oppose. The article is about the full duration of the protests, which went for weeks before being violently suppressed by the Chinese government. —pythoncoder (talk | contribs) 21:18, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• Somewhat Support I can see both sides of this argument, but I think that due to the importance of the killings, and the sheer number, the article should be changed to massacre, paired with the fact that it is commonly known as such in an international context, even if the killings weren't for a majority of the time of the event. AvRand (talk) 21:26, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• Support As mentioned by a previously unnamed editor: "It started with protests, but it is most known by the ending MASSACRE!" I've been living in China for 7 years. The impact of this event (directly and indirectly) in the psyche of "mainland" Chinese people and the Chinese CCP government is profound. Most Chinese people are unaware that it even happened because of the cover-up, those that are familiar with it avoid the subject, and many Chinese Communist Party (CCP) officials deny it ever happened altogether (including Deng Xiaoping himself). These are the signs of a critical event for which the word "protest" is misleading (at the very least). Equally important, it is internationally known as "Massacre". The only reason why the word "incident" is used sometimes is because of the efforts from the CCP.Baidelan (talk) 21:45, 3 June 2019 (UTC)
• Support, but why not "1989 Tiananmen Square protests and massacre"? Both are covered by this article; why only put one in the title? Davey2116 (talk) 03:56, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
  • Good idea. I oppose the current proposal, but would abstain on that one.
• I Support the change, given that the massacre, not the protests, is the reason why the event is well known among the international community. lbs21 (talk) 04:28, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
• I Oppose. In addition to the fact that the article covers the protests leading up to the massacre, it is nice that a non-emotive term can be used. I acknowledge talk's point that "protest" isn't as neutral as it sounds, but it is certainly less emotive, which I think is appropriate for an encyclopaedia. The PRC government tries to hush it up, but conversely many in the west want to amplify it. <rant>I saw a remark "If you do a search for Tiananmen square and the first search result isn't Tank Man then the results have been censored", which is clearly absurd; just because the commenter hadn't heard of Tiananmen square in any other context doesn't mean that it isn't important in other ways. It is like saying "If you search for Washington and the first result isn't a picture of America's involvement in Vietnam then the results have been censored".</rant> LachlanA (talk) 05:35, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
  • There are *many* WP articles w/ word massacre in the title (e.g. Columbine High School massacre), so I don't see how the argument the word is "emotive" & therefore non-encyclopedic can be valid. --IHTS (talk) 05:55, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose; having watched the events unload in real time on television as a teenager, much like a pre-internet Arab Spring, I can attest that the protests were well-known and documented internationally before the massacre itself. The entirety of the uprising is notable, not only the massacre itself.--Chimino (talk) 05:40, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose It's a little misleading, there was no "massacre" in Tiananmen Square itself, though possibly elsewhere. [5] [6][7] Aafixuson (talk) 06:21, 4 June 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose, People's Liberation Army at the 1989 Tiananmen Square protests: there's a seperate article already on the killings that ended the protests. LUMINR (talk) 07:13, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose The term protest describes the whole series of events, but massacre concerns only what happened on June 3-4. I think we should change the massacre redirection to the military action or death toll section. -- Vakrieger♀️🏳️‍🌈 << (TALK💢❤️🗯️) 07:13, 4 June 2019 (UTC)

Why did you remove all the Chinese books?

In the past, there were three types of books: Chinese, Chinese, and Chinese. Today, the rest of the references are all books of pro-US or pro-student parties. The rest of the external links are all links between pro-Americans or pro-student parties. Is this Wikipedia a neutral encyclopedia?

After a year, those editors really still do not repent, the entry did not respond to January 2011 was Wen Zi Yan wood on the type of damage neutral than the previous version, so early again talk page is archived, but also to documents and link entry Get so obvious on one side! Do you have any basic conscience? You do not mind if there is a ghost , if you have reason , then, afraid of what all the information tied up in full? Or are you simply unreasonable? I am afraid that lies will gradually be revealed.

You are now successful in getting everyone to follow your brainwashing , very happy, right? But I remind you that there is always a day when the truth comes to the fore . The information is still in the library and the film is still in the Department of Public Information . 2001:48F8:3022:D9E:995A:A93F:9078:E0C (talk) 14:27, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

See Hanlon's razor. Most of the editors here are English literate, and tend to look for English-language references so they can be cross-checked by other English literate editors. Praemonitus (talk) 17:36, 1 June 2019 (UTC)

Was this posted by someone within the Chinese government? While there may be articles towards one side, this may be due to primarily English articles, but also because the truth happens to lean this way in the first place! 2605:6000:3D87:8500:5831:DE69:D4EE:51A5 (talk) 16:07, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

Death toll 10,000

[8], [9] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.253.244.62 (talk) 15:45, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

The only "source" for the outrageous 10,000 number has always been just that one guy saying it. All other reports and estimates "peak" at about 2,700 --Havsjö (talk) 22:26, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

2,700 civilians is already a high number, but I wouldn't be surprised if the actual death toll is much higher because of: the number of people that were present at the square at the moment that the People's Liberation Army (PLA) clamping down on them, the cover-up from high-ranking Chinese officials, and the fact some PLA soldiers were actually killed by unarmed civilians during the intervention.Baidelan (talk) 22:49, 3 June 2019 (UTC)

It could be possible, but what various different sources from humanitarian and government studies and reports (and the later retracted/denied Chinese red cross) say are usually at 2,600-2,700 deaths (not including thousands of wounded!) at the peak. The 10,000 dead is literally only Alan Donald who says "from what he saw" --Havsjö (talk) 22:54, 3 June 2019 (UTC)