Talk:Barack Obama

The article makes no sense. It tries to portray accomplishments as a Senator, but he spent the vast majority of his time as a Senator running for President. Voting "present" should not give him credit for legislation.

Redundant discussions

Please skim this page first (and ideally the FAQ) before starting a new discussion on the "president elect" designation, or Obama's race/ethnicity. You'll probably find there's already a section there where you can add your comments. Thanks, Wikidemon (talk) 00:09, 6 November 2008 (UTC)

Is there an article or section related to the Transition Team? Chadlupkes (talk) 23:10, 5 November 2008 (UTC)

The "Race/ethnicity" section has (presumably by "Wikidemon", the self-styled "owner" of this page) not just been consolidated or shifted to another already existing section: it has, in effect, simply been removed. The contents are no longer available unless one presses a special link to enter the "archive". Wikipedia guidelines explicitly forbid tampering with other contributors' material on a Talk Page. The current treatment of the "Race/ethnicity" section (rendering none of the contributions visible on the main Talk Page, effectively "hiding" it all inside an "archive") is a violation of these guidelines.Jakob37 (talk) 03:25, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

Anything that can be done to speed the loading of this talk page up, I'm all for it. It's taking forever to load, and old issues that have been discussed ad infinitum don't need to be here. It's hard enough to discuss current issues as it is. Dayewalker (talk) 03:29, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

In that case, there are several other "overly large" sections that could be archived. If User#1 thinks that Topic X is too long and boring, then that user may, without further ado, hide its contents inside an archive. But then User#2 thinks that Topic Y is too long and boring, so that user hides Topic Y's material inside an archive, although User#1 thinks it should stay visible. Is that how it's going to work?Jakob37 (talk) 05:15, 10 November 2008 (UTC)

In regards to the issue of African-American, mixed race, Black, designation by oneself vs. by others, etc., this talk page has spiraled completely out of control. I was rather miffed a day or two ago to find that my contributions, along with others, on the subject had, without any consultation, suddenly been stuffed into an archive, and now I am doubly miffed to see that the same subject has grown another head, even much larger than the material subjected to archiving, and yet nobody is archiving it this time -- quite UNFAIR. In any case, the more important point I would like to raise is that 95% to 99% of the contributions on these interconnected topics have no PARTICULAR connection to Obama; these issues are part of the socio-political nature of American (U.S.) life. Since there seems to be no lack of Wiki-editors who love to manipulate other people's contributions, may I suggest that all this material, instead of being archived (effectively out-of-sight, out-of-mind), be used to construct a separate article on "race attitudes in the U.S." or something to that effect (cf. my comment in "Wikipedia:Featured article review/Barack Obama" ). The Obama article itself should contain an appropriately brief discussion of Obama's relationship to these issues, followed by a hyperlink to the (proposed) article where these issues are described/discussed in the larger context that they deserve. And the Obama Talk-Page will then hopefully return to a focus on Obama himself. The way that Obama has dealt with these issues is not so different from the way thousands or even millions of other people have done.Jakob37 (talk) 08:44, 11 November 2008 (UTC)

69.134.20.90 (talk) 15:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC) i have come to notice that some of the people on this board are extremely racist and wont admit in the text of the article that obama is half white ..i understand the importance to some of the people on here that he be considered black but face facts he isnt.. he is listed as the first african american when in fact ,he isnt ..he might be the first half african american ever elected then when a true african american is elected you wont have to undo all the lies you have spouted about this one.this is afterall,a place where people come for knowledge not some general idea that is put forth by some people

Your comments are totally off base from beginning to end. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:28, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:06, 7 December 2008 (UTC) bugs , nice brush off if i am so offbase then why isnt it mentioned anywhere in the text about his white hertitage..people are wanting to claim his citzenship but not the people who gave him the right to that citizenship his black father was not a citizen so why is everyone harping on his race and wont acknowledge the white side ..maybe if this source were more fair to other people there wouldnt be the rage about how a man with dual citizenship got elected president or about where he was born when anybody can have a birth certficate made up with about 30 minutes planning just a little research i can be anybody with a legitament birth certficate if you want to fair to the readers and to the man himself at least make it fair

Have you bothered to read past the first paragraph? Like where it states that his mother was white? Oh, and have you found any reliable sources that don't call him "the first African American President"? Of course he's African American. He's also English American. But that last part is hardly news, as most every President has been European American. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:29, 7 December 2008 (UTC) yes i read the entire article and have seen lots of things about his life not published or ignored but the point i am making which you seem to be dodging he is only half and should be noted that way.. it is not as if it is hidden by him or anybody else if you were half italian 1/4 english and 1/4 russian would you want to be considered just russian ..he is english arabian and kenyan

We describe him the way the reliable sources describe him. And this has been already discussed at length. Your comments bring nothing new to the discussion. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:46, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

69.134.20.90 (talk) 16:54, 7 December 2008 (UTC) so you need to change the slogan from "the free encyclopedia" to the free " follow the masses rumormill" if you cant post truths about somebody

First rule: Wikipedia bases its information on reliable sources, not on the "rumormill" and not on someone's opinion of the "truth". Second rule: Kindly put your 4 tildes at the END of your comments rather than the beginning. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

my apologies for posting incorectly ,but back to the main argument so you are saying that it isnt a reliable source that he is half white. if it is a reliable source it should be noted in the lead paragragh instead of half way down on one line69.134.20.90 (talk) 17:19, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

We go by reliable sources, and the wording is proper on that basis. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:37, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Still no mention on the birth certificate?

Last time it was brought up it was dismissed as a "fringe conspiracy", but it seems to me that the fact that Obama not only had to make a trip back to produce the currently claimed copy of it and that the Justice Souter has called on him to come forward and produce evidence for the court seems to me it's more than just a fringe thing, even if there are those who would just as soon keep it quiet...71.198.127.97 (talk) 16:11, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Nothing in Obama's Hawaiian trip has anything to do wit the certificate, and Judge Souder has declared no such thing. Berg's petition is scheduled for private conference on the 8th, just as any other filing is up for consideration. Tarc (talk) 16:19, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

Facts are facts, but wikipedia is not about truth, its about what can be cited. Several media organizations have commented on this. It may be time to add it, since it can be cited endlessly.--Jojhutton (talk) 19:46, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

That's just the wedge the conspiracists are seeking. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:49, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

No. Media organizations have commented on Berg's nutballery. They haven't lent any credence whatsoever to his lawsuit or the bizarre claims therein. Until the Supreme Court loses its collective mind and rules Berg's evidence-less theory actually has merit -- and believe me, they won't -- it has no place in Obama's BLP because it has had no bearing on Obama's life. Man, I can't wait until this wackiness is laughed out of court once and for all, and we can finally talk about something else. --GoodDamon 19:55, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

When is this wonderful occasion? I thought it was supposed to be the 1st. Bigbluefish (talk) 21:59, 2 December 2008 (UTC)

No no, the 1st was when Obama was supposed to withdraw because he hadn't provided the Supreme Court with his really truly honest to gosh for realz birth certificate, at which point the Supreme Court was supposed to rule Obama couldn't become President. Sadly, I'm guessing we can expect this silliness to continue until Obama is actually sworn in. At that point, there will be all sorts of new silliness. --GoodDamon 17:35, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

My guess is that this idea was cooked up because things were getting a little slow at the "we-never-went-to-the-moon" club. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:41, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Looks like the tinfoil-hat wearing crowd have found a new conspiracy theory to chomp on. --Overhere2000 (talk) 17:50, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

The IP address is dredging (or drudging) up a late-October "theory" by Rush Slimeball and others who mocked the "dying grandmother" story, and then apparently zipped their overworked lips about it after she actually died. Like, Shazam!, he was telling the truth! Never mind! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 00:59, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

The citizenship issue is and never had been a "conspiracy issue." Take the blinders off and do some research besides in the mainstream media and the Obama campaign site. It seems that posters on here are not willing to look at the evidence, but are in bed with Obama regardless of what the evidence says. Documents point to him still being an Indonesian citizen. He also had British citizenship at birth since Kenya was still a colony. When it became independent, he had Kenyan citizenship. His foreign citizenship was even admitted on his website. A president cannot have divided loyalties, but Obama very clearly does. Read the Constitutional requirements for president and the laws governing what a natual born citizen is. Obama does not qualify. Mystynight (talk) 18:05, 3 December 2008 (UTC)Mystynight 3 Dec 2008

Gosh, you're right! Someone should put together some kind of Federal Election Commission to vet candidates for the Presidency and ensure they meet legal requirements to hold the office! And darn us for relying on mainstream media sources, when the truth is out there! --GoodDamon 18:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Limbaugh has wisely dropped the subject, so apparently he's "in bed with" Obama also. You can tell by the kid-gloves way he treats Obama on his website. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:08, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps the document in qustion was eaten by Jim Morrison's pet Chupicabra. Tin foil hat sales have no doubt weathered the economic crisis Cosand (talk) 22:37, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Besides, didn't the Bush administration repeal the Constitution? --Evb-wiki (talk) 22:58, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

All except the part about holding elections on schedule. D'oh! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:31, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

The reason Wikipedia goes by sources within the mainstream media is simple: we are here to document what is actually going on, not things which might have happened, or could be happening. No one is "in bed" with any faction or ideology. There is a clear criteria for what does or doesn't get included. If it is published as news by credible news organizations, it will be included here. --Steve, Sm8900 (talk) 01:38, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

• It's nice to see AOL news posting a article about the birth certificate issue, so if you need some material to cite here's the link to the story. [4] 71.57.146.112 (talk) 05:54, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

• "Documents point to him still being an Indonesian citizen." -- One shouldn't even have to ask you for a citation of where you found this "information". Obama moved to Indonesia as a child. A child cannot claim citizenship. Only an adult can. As they say in the GI Joes cartoon, knowing is half the battle! And apparently you haven't reached the halfway point. Lol.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 10:34, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
• 71.57.146.112- I don't really see how an article in AOL proves anything in the slightest. The fact reamins that 1.) no relaible sources have released anything that comes even close to inferring that Obama is not a natural-born citizen and 2.) even if we only wanted to talk about the fact that such a controversy exists (which so far consensus has clearly said we don't) than the place to do it would not be his biography. Now, I'm beginning to get very, very tired of IP's pushing fringe POV's; it's disruptive and it's going to stop, are we clear? l'aquatique || talk 11:17, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
  • As long as this nonsense is confined to the talk page, it's mostly harmless. However, you mentioned a "Freudian slip" in your edit summary. Maybe they need to forget about this, and go off and pursue a new urban legend - that old Siggie was a cross-dresser. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:12, 4 December 2008 (UTC)
    • Also, it's already covered in Public image of Barack Obama. Alan Keyes is mentioned in that story, which figures. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 13:34, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The noted philosopher Shawn Michaels once said, "Lord knows if its on the internet it must be true." It is awfully entertaining reading all of this. It reminds me of when a schoolchild would tell another schoolchild the truth about Santa Clause, and the other rigorously defends there must be a Santa Clause. Both think they know better than the other, one's just stupid. --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 18:03, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

While at this point it is probably a fringe theory just the fact the Supreme Court will be discussing a suit involving the theory makes it notable. Wikipedia will discuss fringe theories if there they are deemed notable. The way these discussions are going you would think that this topic are only bieng discussed at the Acorn Stole the Election type blogs. News organizations deciding that the Supreme Court will bring the matter up is a newsworthy event include The Chicago Tribune[5],The GuardianUK[6],Newsday[7],Kansas City Star[8],and Legal Newsline[9] Edkollin (talk) 04:09, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

As I have been told time and time again here, today's "newsworthy" does not equate to encyclopedic. Notice the Court is not going to hear the case tomorrow, they're going to decide whether to hear the case. If they decide not to hear it, it's over, and its only purpose in the article would be to try to flog a dead horse. So at this point it has no business being in the article. If they do decide to hear the case, then maybe you've got something. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:21, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I did notice that that is why I said discuss the matter not hear the suit. Most legal actions do not end up at the top level. Let's discuss what the legal experts say is the likely outcome they won't hear the case. I am not a lawyer so correct me if I am wrong but I would not think the court discusses whether to hear every petition that they get. As far as encyclopedic I do not see why these fringe theories are not encyclopedic but 9/11,Kennedy Assassination ,Pearl Harbor CT theories or UFO’s at Roswell are. If they do hear the case there is no maybe about it. It will not even be a fringe theory anymore. Off Topic: Who is old suggie? Edkollin (talk) 09:24, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Siggie. Sigmund Freud. Regarding the other conspiracies, keep in mind that it took a number of years for most of them to develop to the point where they were notable enough to qualify for wikipedia if it had existed then. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:33, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for siggie explanation did not know about that theory. Yes I do realize the other theories s have been around longer I am not proposing a whole article like they received just a short mention. Edkollin (talk) 21:31, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The reason you did not know about it is because I made it up. Which is where a lot of these theories come from, don'cha know. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 22:17, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

The only possible reason for bringing it up in this biography is in the unlikely event that the fringe theory turns out to be true and Obama is found ineligible for the presidency. In all other cases, it is utterly irrelevant. There is a case for documenting it elsewhere (such as in a separate article, or perhaps the transition article), but only in the event that the matter gets significant news coverage. -- Scjessey (talk) 13:44, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps this topic belongs under a separate heading; maybe something like "Allegations Regarding Candidacy" (or something less lurid). This would allow posters to make reference to issues surrounding Obama's college transcripts, birth certificate, relationship with Ayers, and so on, without cluttering up or detracting from the rest of the article. It would also address the relevant fact that non-mainstream sources raised issues during Obama's candidacy and his inauguration. The article seems a little too positive, otherwise. I mean, even Ghandi had detractors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightmote (talk • contribs) 16:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Don't fall into the trap of thinking that NPOV requires an equal amount of positive and negative content. To show the fallacy of this thinking, imagine if we had to "balance" the article about Pol Pot or Adolph Hitler with "positive" material to counter the existing negative information in those articles. NPOV means we present what reliable sources have to say in a neutral manner. It doesn't mean we add poorly sourced or inappropriate material to "counter" positive material. --GoodDamon 16:36, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Point taken, and I am no supporter of the "Fairness Doctrine", but any discussion of Hitler would be incomplete without a reference to the Treaty of Versailles, and I believe that any discussion of the Obama candidacy will be incomplete without at least some passing references to the issues raised regarding Obama's past. For instance, to avoid mentioning Reverend Wright or Bill Ayers in this article is to imply that those individuals played no role during the campaign; ditto the Birth Certificate. It would be more appropriate and complete and neutral to state the allegations raised followed by the outcome of the ensuing investigation. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Nightmote (talk • contribs) 17:54, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Unless the Court decides to hear the so-called "issue" about Obama's birthplace, it does not belong in the article. The other topics are covered at length in various places. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:40, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

It actually gets even worse. Another litigant acknowledges that the birth certificate is legitimate and concedes that Obama was born in Hawaii but he is suing because he thinks Obama was a British citizen at birth. This seems to be endless. Dr.K. (logos) 18:54, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I saw a similar article, in which it was pointed out that today's Court discussion is merely about whether to look at the claim that he's not a "natural born citizen", hence (contrary to the complainants here), the so-called "issue" of the birth certificate is not even considered an issue. What it does, though, is splinter the ones who want to steal the election from Obama, into different camps. That article, or one like it, also pointed out a term for these conspiracy theorist types: "birthers". So now we have a name for them. Like "Big Bertha" or "lower berth", or any number of plays on words. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:02, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

To quote from the article, "Mr. Donofrio concedes Mr. Obama was born in Hawaii." The so-called "issue" over the birth certificate is, in fact, not an issue at all. Hence it has no place in the article. If there's an issue about Obama's citizenship otherwise, maybe those yokels could have brought it up a little sooner. I think there was a similar issue about McCain that was dealt with fairly early in the campaign. But unless the Court decides to hear it, the citizenship issue also has no place in the article, unless it's to report that it's not an issue. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:08, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Now that's funny.. Apparently the litigant isn't aware that regardless of the nationality of the parents a child born on US soil is a natural born US citizen. That is where the term anchor baby comes from after all. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 19:05, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

There you go again, Bobblehead, trying to insert facts into this discussion. My favorite part of this conspiracy is the birth announcement placed in the Hawaii newspapers on August 13, 1961, clearly placed there knowing full well that 47 years later people would want to point to it as proof of his Hawaiian birth. Those folks sure were clever. Tvoz/talk 19:18, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

That's my understanding also. But presumably the Court will decide. The whole thing is slippery because the writers of the Constitution didn't bother to define the term. But it's clear what they meant: They didn't want foreigners running the government, such as the German-born kings who had run England for awhile. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 19:08, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

It's not realy slippery at all. The original framers didn't explicitly define it, but it was explicitly defined later on in the 14th Amendment. As for the court "deciding" this issue, the chances of them taking up this case are next to zero (which I guess will be their way of deciding it). --Loonymonkey (talk) 19:15, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Heck, it's not even like referring the appeal to conference is uncommon. Read somewhere that in the last eight years 840 appeals were referred for conference, but only 60 of those were heard. Depending on the result of the review, Thomas was probably referred for conference so that the appeal could be killed. If he had rejected it like Souter did, the petitioner could have resubmitted the appeal to another Justice and continued to do so until the end of time.. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 19:40, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Talk about AGF... but that's certainly possible. Tvoz/talk 19:47, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I forsee this turning into the same type of conspiracy theory as the JFK assassination conspiracy, 9/11 conspiracy, and so on. Even with the evidence staring them right in their face and enough people saying there is nothing there, they will not stop believing it. These people believe beyond hope that something will come up and the person they supported will become president. Sadly, this will also become a reoccurring theme for us. Brothejr (talk) 20:13, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Leo's case not taken up by SCOTUS. Only two were, heres your source [10] Background: when the Supreme Court grants cert. (i.e., decides that they will hear a case), they release that order immediately, because the parties to the case need to start working on their briefs. If the Court denies cert. (decides that they will not hear the case), those orders are not released until the following Monday (because there are so many of them and the clerk's office needs time to put together the full list). Today's order list grants cert. in two cases, neither one of them an Obama eligibility case. We won't know for sure until the Monday order list comes out it the cases were denied (it's possible they postponed consideration to a later conference, though I think that's unlikely), or if anyone dissented from the denial, but if I had to bet, I would say that the Court will simply decline to hear these cases without any comment. --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 20:42, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for the Info Edkollin (talk) 21:19, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Obama and Mohammed & Holy Grail

Recent discussion has included discussion of Obama descent from both the claimed holy grail lines of Jesus and also certain lines from Mohammed. And Mohammed's prophecy that a descendant of his would fight the dajjal (the antichrist). Should this link be added to reference listings

Obama - Mohammed, Holy Grail & the Dajjal

Don't forget Obama's ancestral connection with E.T. The Extra-Terrestrial. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:04, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Short answer:no. See WP:Reliable sources; contrast Tin foil hat. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 14:08, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The IP also tried to post it in several other places, all zapped. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I think the public has a right to know the extent of Obama's connection with Santa Claus. It is being "widely reported" that he received unreported gifts from the "Christmas Lobbyist" on an annual basis. Matt Drudge reports that one of these gifts may have been a G.I. Joe dressed in traditional muslim garb. -- 71.225.97.64 (talk) 14:24, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

For the inauguration, Michelle Obama will be donning a Ralph Loren burqua. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 14:27, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

It may be "widely reported", but Wikipedia is not news and the public has a right to read about it elsewhere. This material is not important enough, within the context of Obama's life, to be documented in his biographical article. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 14:38, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

No, I'm pretty sure Obama is the reincarnation of Jesus, I read it on a blog somewhere, thus it should be added to Wikipedia. Lol. Seriously, a heck of a lot of these people wearing tin foil hats are coming out of the woodworks these days, aren't they?--Pericles of Athens^Talk 14:51, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

But this Santa Claus thing is big news. Everyone is talking about it. Not just in blogs, but on real TV shows like Oprah and stuff. I saw it mentioned on The O'Reilly Factor last night! Apparently, Obama didn't have to do anything to receive these gifts except "be good" (whatever that means). -- 71.225.97.64 (talk)

Further reinforcing the E.T. connection: "Beee goo-ood!" Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:20, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

I don't think Wikipedia is the place for claims that Obama is the messiah or the anti-christ or the one who will fight the anti-christ (and presumably win) or a descendant of Jesus or a descendant of Mohammed or an E.T., nor do I think that particular link belongs in the Reference section, but I do think we should keep it in mind (in the archive of this discussion) for future Talk page discussions (and we know there will be more, probably for all eternity) claiming Obama is the anti-christ. So thank you for posting it, and please ignore those ridiculing your post. They've had a very long year. Flatterworld (talk) 22:22, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

In the early 80s, some said that Reagan was the anti-Christ, owing to having 6 letters in each of his 3 names: Ronald Wilson Reagan. That fear proved to be mostly an exaggeration. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 23:28, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

"mostly" Tvoz/talk 19:21, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Too early to tell - wait and see how the current financial/economic (aka deregulation) crisis turns out for the world. Flatterworld (talk) 19:36, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Germany Protest Ban

Resolved

 – Consensus says keep it out

Support Inclusion of protest ban in Berlin. See also Talk:Public image of Barack Obama EagleScout18 (talk) 03:39, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Nah, not for a bio article. Same goes for the George W. Bush bio and all the protesters and signs his people stopped at his talks. Not notable, happens all the time. ~ priyanath ^talk 03:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Oppose Nothing special about it. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:09, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Closing RfC as marginal RfC brought in absence of any dispute, duplicating an RfC just proposed elsewhere.[11] Please feel free to continue using the section for normal discussion but no need to fork an RfC. Wikidemon (talk) 04:25, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Close it Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 05:45, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Reminder This is not a discussion about the RfC, but about the proposal of inclusion of the Germany ban as described. Per policy, from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:RFC#Ending_RfCs:

"Ending RfCs: Most RfCs are automatically ended by the RfC bot after thirty days. (The expiration date is listed in the list of RfCs.) If consensus has been reached before then, the RfC nominator(s) can remove the RfC tag, and the bot will remove the discussion from the list on its next run. A request for comment on a user, however, needs to be closed manually. This should be done by an uninvolved editor."

Per above, please do not remove RFC templates. Thank you, in advance, EagleScout18 (talk) 05:52, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

I've closed the RfC because it was brought way too prematurely. The RfC page states "Before asking outside opinion here, it generally helps to simply discuss the matter on the article talk page first. Whatever the disagreement, the first step in resolving a dispute is to talk to the other parties involved." It's common practice on Wikipedia to have a discussion on the talk page first, and then have an RfC if there is no consensus or there are unresolvable issues. There is clear consensus so far to not include this in the article. ~ priyanath ^talk 05:54, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree with Priyanath. no outside outside opinions are really required as it is already clear that most editors are opposed to inclusion of the incident. Icewedge (talk) 05:58, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support RFC closure and Oppose mention of this in article — for better or worse, this is not uncommon practice for political gatherings for figures who want to stay "on message". It's not great for free speech, but it doesn't really have anything to do with Obama either. —Josiah Rowe (talk • contribs) 06:00, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

(multiple edit conflict) Additional note: this discussion was begun barely two hours ago. If every two hour old discussion (one already with consensus yet) was brought to RfC, the system would break down. ~ priyanath ^talk 06:02, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

Remain open Leave other editors time to respond. EagleScout18 (talk) 07:22, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support closure of RfC and Oppose inclusion of this matter in article. Clearly not for this bio, clearly no consensus in favor, and the RfC was overkill. Tvoz/talk 08:15, 3 December 2008 (UTC)
• Support closure of RfC and Oppose inclusion of this matter in article per others. --Evb-wiki (talk) 13:43, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• Another editor responding - in case unanimous opposition is not sufficient, this is one of the highest traffic articles on Wikipedia; if anyone is likely to see this charade and see the sources proposed as sufficiently reliable and the incident concerned to be sufficiently notable even anywhere on Wikipedia then one will find it just fine without an open RFC. RFC closures are not binding of course but a very clear consensus has emerged right now. Bigbluefish (talk) 17:28, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support closure of RfC and Oppose inclusion for this obviously non-notable, agenda-driven material. -- Scjessey (talk) 17:35, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support closure of RfC and Oppose inclusion This is not really notable enough to be included in the summary style written main biography. Brothejr (talk) 19:21, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

• Post-support closure of RfC and Oppose inclusion as trivial. Grsz¹¹ 01:57, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

• • Note EagleScout18 has been sent to a block party. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:36, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Really? So that's the reward for fairly harmless, albeit somewhat idiosyncratic, behaviour that includes calling a spade a spade and coolly standing up for oneself in the heat of what looked suspiciously like a witch-hunt? Did EagleScout18 grow a wart on his/her nose? Hang out with a black cat? (Answers on my talk page please.) Just curious. Oh well. Being a witch, he/she has presumably mastered Shape-shift 101 and will return as someone (or -thing) else, casting horrible spells to afflict his/her tormentors with boils etc. And while I'm driving by:

• Oppose inclusion. Suppressing freedom of expression is so commonplace in democracies as to be a cliché; therefore not sufficiently notable for the summary. — Writegeist (talk) 01:36, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

I thought an indef-block was a bit excessive, but I also suspected he was merely trolling, and he hasn't uttered a whimper since being blocked, so I suspect my suspicion was correct. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:47, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

A "bit" excessive? A bit of an understatement. As you say, it was all suspicion. And whereas a scamper through ES18's contribs shows that the majority are clearly intended to improve the encyclopedia, his block appeal was nevertheless declined (by a sysop just three months into the job) with the Kafkaesque judgement that "after reviewing your contributions I don't believe you are here to improve the encyclopedia". (Emph. added.) Indefinitely blocking editors who are generally (and demonstrably) well-intentioned will hardly improve the encyclopedia. "...hasn't uttered a whimper since being blocked"? Not true. See ES18's talk page for his/her remarkably civil (under the circs) response to the sysop in question. As you predicate your suspicion about your suspicion on your belief that ES18 was silenced by the block, this evidence to the contrary will now, I'm happy to say, relieve you of your specious suspicion. (If you follow me.) :~) Any reply, my talk please. — Writegeist (talk) 16:40, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

He showed the all-to-typical signs of just being here to push an agenda, and did it in a rather disruptive and typically tendentious, aggressive manner. A good block and good riddance, IMO. Tarc (talk) 16:53, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Yes. Also, what I said about him being silent was true at the time. His unblock request since then, consisted of complaints about other editors, an approach which typically will result in a decline no matter who the admin is. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:54, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

• Support closure and Oppose inclusion; obscure guilt-by-proxy allegations are inappropriate for a biography article. »S0CO^{(talk|contribs)} 02:39, 5 December 2008 (UTC)
  • I'm marking this "resolved", as the only one who supported it was the one who proposed it, and he gawn. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 03:46, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

genealogical tree of Obama

look at this [12].

in the article there is nothing about Obama's genealogy, despite it has been verified by multples media and newpapers in the past, as you can see in the notes. The article on English Wikipedia must be integrated. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 151.66.37.49 (talk) 21:35, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The article discusses Obama's parents, grandparents, and children. That's a reasonable amount of family material. English Wikipedia articles generally do not contain genealogy trees (there are exceptions, such as some articles about royal families), but there is an article, Family of Barack Obama with much more information. Wikipedia isn't really a great resource for complete genealogies - there are other websites with that focus, and more useful tools. We can direct readers to that through the power of the hyperlink and citation (most apt for the family article, not this one). Wikidemon (talk) 21:45, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

To expand on what Wikidemon posted: There are many relevant links, but Wikipedia is not a link farm. That's why (in External links) we link to Obama's category on ODP which includes the link to: William Addams Reitwiesner Genealogical Services - Ancestry of Barack Obama for those interested. Flatterworld (talk) 19:41, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Welcome to the English Wikipedia, M ^r (or, of course, M/ ^s) IP! My own suggestion…

1. Find the right Obama sub-article… By your going to this article's "Further Reading" section (here: Barack Obama#Further Reading) and checking out the navigation-box template for The Series Of Articles About President-elect Barack Obama…then clicking on its Wikipedia link that says, "Family."
2. Find the correct section… By, once your screen loads up The Obama Family article, your looking at its table of contents and clicking the article's section entitled "Distant relations"…
3. Make a reasonable contribution… By, now that you've got to that section, your translating from the foreign language source you've mentioned just above, and contributing in English a sentence of arguably (quote) notable (end of quote) information that would fit the subject of this section: distant genealogical relationships of Barack Obama…
4. Cite a pertinent source in English… By, now, your using search engines or whatnot and finding an English-language source for this same info, then appending a footnote to your contribution that would reference it as a source…
5. Hover over the article every day… checking back until the inevitable um likewise hovering -- or, that is, circling -- sharks have arrived to delete it, alleging it simply not to be notable…
6. Defend your contribution… By your going to the Family article's talkpage and contending that the information you had contributed "…was indeed notable!"… Of course, explaining why you feel it to be…

Again… Welcome! Just tips me hat but then 〜on thought bows deeply … 05:03, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

The Wikipedia Cycle. And you wondered why Wkipedia's logo is circular. :) Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 07:39, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

In fact, M ^r or M/ ^s IP, much of the info you cite is in the section I mentioned above, in a "collapsed" table. (Just click on its button that says "Show." And....don't worry, folks; all pix in it are free!)

Just tips me hat but then 〜on thought bows deeply … 04:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Why criticism of the article belongs on this page

I don't understand why user:Orangejumpsuit's comment does not belong on this page, since it is criticizing the sanitation of the Obama article? His comment regarding holding Republican articles to the same standard can be added to the Republican talk pages, but his point regarding the fairness and balance of this page should not be censored. I think his comment should be opened up for discussion on this talk page. Tundrabuggy (talk) 16:38, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Do you have any idea what some of us went through in September-October, trying to defend the Sarah Palin page against a siege of tabloid junk? Eventually we just gave up, and if her page is laden with unfair criticism, that's the reason. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:56, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

So in other words it's fine to leave Republican pages full of attacks, but Obama's must remain pure. The political bias of Liberalpedia is amazing.

Being rather familiar with disruptive editing, it should be quite easy to recognize when a person is merely present to push an agenda rather than honestly contribute to an article. The section above by this person was a soapboxing attack on other editors who do not share his particular opinion on the matter, and looking through his edit history, this is not the first time. Tarc (talk) 17:01, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

If there's any actual evidence that the page is being whitewashed of legitimate and pertinent critical commentary then I'm sure it would receive a fair hearing here. The evidence seems to suggest a rather strong correlation between "editors who propose the addition of critical commentary here" and "editors who believe that Obama is General Zod's Muslim half-nephew", however. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 17:20, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

In 2007 Obama himself said that his middle name and its Muslim roots will help heal the rift between the Muslim and Western world. You can't have it both ways.

It's worth keeping in mind that he's not President yet, so technically he hasn't done anything yet. Once he does, there will be ample legitimate criticism. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 18:37, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

He's been alive for quite some time, and has been an active member of adult society for most of that. This is not just the Obama Presidency article. Drawings he made in nursery school are being excluded because they are trivial, not because they weren't drawn during his term. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 23:04, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

True. I mean he hasn't done anything as President yet. And criticisms need to be based on reliable sources raising worthwhile points, not "he's a liberal and we hate him" kinds of stuff. For example, he's already being accused of going against his pledge of being a change agent by bringing in the same old people to run the show, to essentially re-create the Clinton administration (hopefully without the Lewinsky factor), although even that's more of a partisan complaint than anything, being as how Bush did his best to re-create his father's administration. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 05:08, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

As it says at the top of the page: This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Barack Obama article. Good faith proposals to improve this article are not - and will not be - censored. Note, however, that the archived section above does not contain any such proposals. It does contain criticism of this article, implying that there is a problem with this article with respect to WP:NPOV, but rather than suggesting that this perceived problem be fixed, instead proposes to treat this article as establishing a precedent that should affect all other political biographies. Wikipedia doesn't work that way. SHEFFIELDSTEEL^TALK 19:34, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

Protection

Yes this could be vandalized but it will allow those who wish to add knoledge to do so and this will allow a more balanced view on his political views.Temp213 (talk) 23:54, 5 December 2008 (UTC)

 Note: Already answered on user's talk page. NanohaA'sYuri^{Talk, My master} 00:16, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Donofrio v. Wells

Hello,

There's currently a case (Donofrio v. Wells) pending in front of the Supreme Court of the United States regarding Obama's citizenship. Maybe it could be included as a link here or in a subarticle. Also, I have no idea what it means. I just created the article because I was surprised Wikipedia didn't have one already. Tony (talk) 02:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Chronic Gambler Jet Schizo Donofrio's lawsuit is invalid, that's why it is not included. Jet Schizo claims Obama is not a Natural Born Citizen because Pop Obama was a British citizen. A Natural Born Citizen however, is anyone born on U.S. Ground. Regardless of Parents Country of Origin. Obama was born in Hawaii (USA). The specifics are simple, and the inclusion of a frivolous and failed lawsuit is not of encyclopedic value. --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 03:10, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Also, the wiki page for the lawsuit you created doesn't meet merit of being included. I have no idea how to remove the page, but I'm just making it know so someone else can fix it. --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 03:13, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Given the lawsuit is being considered by the Supreme Court, it would seem not to be invalid. Not only are you censoring the article, you're censoring discussion of the article and other articles. If Obamassiah was born in Hawaii, why has he spent $800,000 on legal defense rather than simply showing his birth certificate (not the certificate of live birth.) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.196.179.114 (talk) 06:36, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

There's a process for nomination for deletion. That's not something I've done much, but I'm sure someone who reads these pages will know. Also, it seems like that guy arrived out of the blue (or the red) and hadn't read a blessed thing that's been written here about it. Or else he ignored it. The only reason for such an article at this point is a POV content fork. In fact, maybe I'll try a speedy delete and see what happens. That I think I can do. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:41, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

In fact, it's already nominated. Go to that page and make your opinion known! Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 04:42, 6 December 2008 (UTC)

Languages spoken

I've tried to find out whether Obama speaks any other languages beside English, through perusing Wikipedia, that is, but to no avail. As he went to school in Jakarta and had classes in Bahasa Indonesia, according to Early life and career of Barack Obama, and given his education, sophistication, cosmopolitanism, and multi-ethnic kin, it is certainly understandable that one may be led to wonder about that. Florian Blaschke (talk) 01:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I do believe he previously spoke whatever language they use in Indonesia, I have no source that I can easily find. Take it with a grain of salt. --DemocraplypseNow (talk) 01:51, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

This came up at the reference desk once. [13] Apparently, he is only fluent in English, but knows a little Spanish, Swahili, and Indonesian. Zagalejo^^^ 02:08, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

According to what my friend has told me… (who is a videographer -- see e/g his work here -- and who himself, this friend, taught English in Indonesia in the '70s, thereafter studied the language in California and now speaks it, and, according to his bio, had returned for 6 months in 1981 to do field research in Bali, Java and Sumatra) …Barack's sister Maya told my friend at a campaign event in the SF Bay Area that her brother Barack understands Indonesian well but is less fluent in his ability to speak it. Just tips me hat but then 〜on thought bows deeply … 02:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I see, thank you very much for answering my question. Florian Blaschke (talk) 23:48, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Obama Birth Certificate Issue

Why do you guys keep deleting it? It's a legitimate news story. I'm by no means saying he's guilty of anything but it's being covered on all major news networks now. What is this WikiChina? Doesn't this make us look like we are indeed trying to hide something? A lot of people who use Wikipedia take it as fact and we look pretty dumb not even mentioning it.

There is mention of the McCain controversy on his page. I'm sure you'll find controversies (true or not) on most presidents. Why not just acknowledge that it exists and state that nothing has been proven. Do you think by leaving it off it will magically go away? All it shows is that we are being commies like they claim and it really discredits the entire page by totally leaving it out.

My 2 cents.

Cheers, Ryan —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.180.54.191 (talk) 03:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

It's a bogus, fringe story not worthy of wikipedia. Once the Supreme Court item is fully settled, the entire discussion might be worth a sentence or two just to state that it was a bogus story invented by Obama opponents. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 07:22, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Only if you get reliably sourced information that it was invented. Edkollin (talk) 08:20, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

But likely not in his biography. Tvoz/talk 07:46, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

How about relocating both the McCain info, as well as the outcome of this case, to the "Natural born citizen" article? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 08:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Should the supreme court refuse to take up Donofrio v. Wells the issue (as appears to be the case) it is not notable to that article either, just a failed lawsuit and a conspiracy theory. There is an article about the suit that is up for deletion and (despite my vote to keep) seems to be a losing battle. If the material belongs anywhere, it is probably in an article devoted to persistent conspiracy theories and/or lawsuits over Obama's citizenship. They will likely not go anywhere, but it is a sourceable, notable phenomenon in its own right that people keep dragging this up. We have articles about UFOs and pixies, might as well have an article about this. Plus, even though in reality it is farfetched and remote that a court would ever declare Obama unfit on account of his birth, the underlying issue is actually an interesting one and has never been adjudicated as far as I can tell, just assumed to be true. I know I'm conflating theories about his birthplace with those about eligibility that rely on the facts as generally accepted - it all seems like part of the same to me. Wikidemon (talk) 11:49, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Funny you should mention pixies, as that reminds me of a comment by attorney Joseph N. Welch during the Army-McCarthy hearings, whose accusations came to a similar pointless end. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 12:17, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia is all about verifiability, not truth. It is being covered as a controversy in the media, and should be covered in this article.--Jojhutton (talk) 14:00, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Nonsense. This is Obama's biography. A frivolous lawsuit that obviously won't get anywhere has no biographical significance whatsoever. It only becomes biographically-significant in the totally unlikely event that the lawsuit actually leads to Obama being found ineligible for the presidency, or if Obama himself becomes embroiled in the case. Otherwise, any notability it may have concerns the plaintiff and possibly the court. -- Scjessey (talk) 14:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

If the high court decides to hear this case, then the place for it would be the Natural Born Citizen article, since that's the issue being pushed. If the court actually rules Obama ineligible, then it would belong here, along with information about the ensuing national riots resulting from the court subverting the will of the people. If they don't do any of that, then it's nothing, it's irrelevant, and doesn't belong anywhere in wikipedia. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 15:04, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

You are welcome to that opinion, but verifiability trumps your pesonal opinion.--Jojhutton (talk) 16:11, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Notability also figures into it. If the court decides not to consider the case, then where is the notability? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 16:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Since it continues to be brought up in the media and on this talk page, notability has been established.--Jojhutton (talk) 16:18, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

It continues to be brought up, yes. My particular references have been deleted from this talk page. I put up notice of a National PRess Corp discussion in regard to it that couldn't have been left on here for 5 minutes. Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:13, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Oops! I was wrong. I made my post at 9:28 [14] NawlinWiki reverted with no edit summary at 9:29 [15] Tundrabuggy (talk) 04:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

You posted an entire copyrighted press release. I'm guessing it was reverted because it was a copyright violation (NawlinWiki is an administrator). The admin 1-button rollback feature does not provide a customizable edit summary. -- Rick Block (talk) 05:24, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

It's not notable for this article. This is a biography of Barack Obama, not a collection of frivolous lawsuits that have his name on them. It might be notable enough for a proposed article on all the conspiracy theories and fringe Obama lawsuits being discussed at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Donofrio v. Wells. Priyanath ^talk 04:22, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Continuing to argue this in the abstract appears to be pointless. Please propose an addition that meets the standards of WP:V, WP:RS, WP:NPOV. -- Rick Block (talk) 16:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

If he is going to be president then everyone must understand that this page can no longer be white washed. Understand that all of this comes with the job. There is no exception to it.--Jojhutton (talk) 18:05, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

It isn't whitewashed. It also will not become a sounding board for every half-baked, right-wing, nutjob, tinfoil hat conspiracy that gets puked out of the blogosphere. The notion of Obama being foreign-born is a fringe conspiracy that cannot and will not be placed in the article. Reliable sourcing isn't the issue, nor is it relevant. Become friends with WP:UNDUE and WP:FRINGE, please. Tarc (talk) 18:32, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Again, focusing on a specific proposal would help. It's hard for me to come up with something that doesn't sound like a joke. Perhaps the thought is (not sure where):

Despite publishing a copy of his birth certificate and confirmation by Hawaii's Director of Vital Records, rumors that Obama was not actually born in Hawaii or otherwise failed to meet the eligibility requirements for the presidency were circulated by a variety of right-wing sources and several specious lawsuits were filed attempting to block him from becoming president.

I agree omitting this here is not white-washing. It simply has essentially nothing to do with Obama's biography. He was born in Hawaii. No reliable source questions that. It is certainly a fact that there are people who apparently don't believe this, but so what? -- Rick Block (talk) 18:45, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I personally don't really believe the rumors. But I have heard them a lot, and they got me curious. When I'm curious, I come to the one source of information that I can (almost) always trust to be fair and objective. If it really is a popular controversy (the fact alone that people keep trying to add it on this page proves that it is), it needs to be mentioned. Not to promote the rumors, but to do what Wikipedia does best: tell the facts.--Johnny Jupiter —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.86.45.186 (talk) 20:02, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

I'd say we wait until the case is settled, before adding it to the article. GoodDay (talk) 22:53, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Controversies appear on many biographies once they reach a level of public discourse which indicates that the controversy is important to the subject's life and that providing information on this issue would be helpful for those coming here to learn more about the subject. The question here, then, is whether or not this issue has reached that level of public discourse. I've seen segments on this on CNN, and the articles have popped up all over mainstream media, not just right-wing attack blogs. The article could probably use a sentence on this no unlike the one offered above, but with less opinion. The issue itself isn't that complicated, and the facts will speak for themselves.

Also, I'm not sure why we need to wait for the case to be settled before we comment. Most controversies don't have clean ends, and having one isn't necessary for inclusion in an article.LedRush (talk) 23:58, 7 December 2008 (UTC)

Has anybody checked the birth records of Washington, Adams, Jefferson, Madison, Monroe, J.Q.Adams, Jackson & Harrison (maybe even Van Buren)? None of them were born American citizens. Also, Chet Arthur? the Canuck? GoodDay (talk) 01:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

How about Hamilton? He was born on St. Croix, knew he could never be president so he wanted to be king. Thank God for Tom Jefferson. L0b0t (talk) 01:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Or perhaps, thank Aaron Burr. GoodDay (talk) 01:56, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

From Article II of the U.S. Constitution: "No person except a natural born Citizen, or a Citizen of the United States, at the time of the Adoption of this Constitution, shall be eligible to the Office of President; . . . ." Those guys thought of everything. :-)~ --Evb-wiki (talk) 01:53, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I knew there had to be a grandfather clause in there. GoodDay (talk) 01:54, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

(undent) Just FYI, not all of the "natural-born citizen lawsuits" dispute that Obama was born in Hawaii and is a U.S. citizen. For example, the New Jersey lawsuit by Leo Donofrio (which will probably be dismissed by SCOTUS tomorrow) alleges that Obama was born in Hawaii and is a U.S. citizen, but nevertheless is not a "natural-born citizen" because he was born with dual citizenship. There's a Connecticut lawsuit that makes the same argument. I'll refrain from giving my opinion about it, but it's certainly a very different argument from the argument that Obama's unreleased long-form birth certificate may indicate a foreign birth.Ferrylodge (talk) 02:35, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I hadn't even realized this was an issue, so I did a very little digging. FactCheck.org has an analysis of the controversy that throughly demolishes the rumors and arguments that Obama's birth certificate isn't legitimate. Whether or not this article has a section on this controversy, I'd suggest we leave in the citation I've just added to emphasize the hard evidence supporting his natural-born citizenship. It may be the only way to permanently deflate any conspiracy theorists, at least on this one aspect of the issue. ~ Jeff Q (talk) 04:35, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The Factcheck "Born in the USA" thing is already in footnote #3, so I reverted.Ferrylodge (talk) 05:52, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The only "hard evidence" of his citizenship will be the presentation of a certified copy of his certificate to the proper authorities for verification. 99.9 % of "natural born citizens" in the U.S. would simply present it when required. In fact, we have to present it for a passport, to collect social security, and numerous other reasons. The U.S. President is required to be a natural-born citizen, and so should present his passport to the proper officials. Obama could make this issue disappear in 5 minutes. Why doesn't he? [16] Tundrabuggy (talk) 06:06, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

According to this: he has and yet rumors persist. This seriously must count among the lamest conspiracy theories yet. No aliens, no mind control, no atomic bombs- just a bunch of bigots who don't know the meaning of the term sportsmanship. I would strongly suggest to all regular visitors of this page: just stop responding. Do not give the nuts the time of day and they will lose interest eventually. l'aquatique || talk 06:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

It's not quite that simple, L'Aquatique. Barack Obama's short-form birth certificate has been posted online at Obama's website. However, a short-form is different from a long-form. Obama's short form was laser-printed and certified by the State of Hawaii June 6, 2007. People like Tundrabuggy (and Alan Keyes) are seeking a copy of the original long-form certificate prepared in 1961. So, go ahead and call it a lame conspiracy theory if you like, but also acknowledge that Obama has not released the long-form. Obama may have good reasons for not releasing it, and people may have no valid reason for demanding a look at it, but the fact remains that it is still locked up in a vault.Ferrylodge (talk) 06:31, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

If you look at L'Aquatique's link, you'd see that the factcheck.org folks held the original long form birth certificate in their hands, photographed it, etc. So, actually, he has released it. --guyzero | talk 07:23, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

No, that's incorrect. L'Aquatique's link says: "FactCheck.org staffers have now seen, touched, examined and photographed the original birth certificate. We conclude that it meets all of the requirements from the State Department for proving U.S. citizenship. Claims that the document lacks a raised seal or a signature are false. We have posted high-resolution photographs of the document as 'supporting documents' to this article." The high-resolution photographs are of the 2007 laser-printed short-form. Fact-check touched and examined the original 2007 document. They have not touched or seen the 1961 long-form, which contains info like the hospital, the doctor, et cetera.Ferrylodge (talk) 16:07, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Look, it doesn't matter. A birth certificate is a birth certificate: it's a legal document that states a person was born in a certain place, at a certain time, to certain people. If that picture is of a short form birth certificate than I don't have a long form one because that's all the information I've ever seen on a birth certificate. I trust I don't need to have mine verified by the state before you'll believe me? l'aquatique || talk 09:59, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I am not questioning your honesty, L'Aquatique, nor am I questioning Obama's. I'm simply pointing out the facts. There is a long-form birth certificate that Obama has declined to release, showing the hospital, the doctor, and other info that is not on the short form. That's all I'm saying, and it happens to be true. Whether it's important or not is another matter (I'm not commenting about that).Ferrylodge (talk) 16:10, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The short form birth certificate is the only form that the State of Hawai'i (and most other states for that matter) will create for people that request a copy of their birth certificate and is accepted as proof that the long form birth certificate exists. Since the Hawaiian short form birth certificate includes the parents' names, his place of birth, date of birth, etc. it is accepted by all government agencies as proof of citizenship. All in all, this is just another conspiracy theory propagated by the tin-foil hat wearers and will never die now that it is out in the ether because like all conspiracy theory any evidence provided that contradicts the conspiracy theory is instantly labeled as a fraud and thus part of the conspiracy theory. Salon has a pretty good article on this:[17] --Bobblehead ^(rants) 18:39, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Wikipedia has an article on it. Mfield (talk) 18:42, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I think that if his birthplace would've even remotely been an issue, it would've been caught long before he began his campaign for Presidency. I don't think Barrack would've been allowed if in fact there was any flagging during his background check. I have faith in our security experts. ^^ --Ulterion (talk) 13:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I guess we may never know. :-) SCOTUS declined to hear Donofrio v. Wells. [18] --Evb-wiki (talk) 15:14, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

As mentioned above, Donofrio v. Wells had nothing to do with where Obama was born. Donofrio's argument assumed that Obama was born in Hawaii, and that his father was a non-citizen. No matter what your position about this whole thing, we should at least try to get our facts straight.Ferrylodge (talk) 16:07, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

There is no issue about either his birth or his citizenship. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 17:59, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

I agree, there are hundreds of verified reliable sources that says he was born in Hawaii and is a legitimate natural-born citizen. The only thing notable about this are the people who cling to the theory that he was not born in this country or held dual citizenship, is a closet Muslim, in the hopes to keep him from becoming the next president. While the theories are notable in their craziness, they still don't belong in this biography. They are better included in either an election article or an article written on all the conspiracy theories floating out there on the blogsphear. Also, one comment on the whole long birth record. Why does Obama need to make it public for everyone to look at? It has been verified by a bunch of officials who have verified that it is legal and correct. Would you be ok if either your long form or short form, or in the middle form birth certificate be made public for everyone to see and verify that you are natural born? The correct answer is no most people, including you, are not ok with that. Everyone is in their right to keep people from viewing very personal records like that. So it is best to let this fade away. The election is over with. There is nothing to be gained for trying to continue this on. So lets just move on and let this theory fade away.Brothejr (talk) 18:25, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Brothejr, it's unclear who the "you" is that you're addressing. Anyway, I agree with you that birth certificate theories don't belong in this BLP, except maybe the footnotes. You say: "Why does Obama need to make it public for everyone to look at? It has been verified by a bunch of officials who have verified that it is legal and correct." Actually, here's what the Hawaii officials say: "'Unfortunately the way state laws are written we are not allowed to confirm vital information and vital records,' said Janice Okubo, a spokeswoman for Hawaii's department of health. 'I cannot confirm individual information because that is against the law.'"[19] Anyway, we should move on, but when people get their facts wrong it's okay to point that out.Ferrylodge (talk) 18:45, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Well that's good to know, because you are about to be corrected. All they meant by the above quotation is that they cannot release such information to the public, i.e. Berg, as he has no standing to demand or request to see the document. The director of Hawaii's department of health confirms that she has viewed the certificate and that it is valid. There was nothing in what Brothejr that was incorrect. Tarc (talk) 18:54, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

The Hawaii official said she has "personally seen and verified that the Hawaii State Department of Health has Senator Obama’s original birth certificate on record."[20] That does not describe the 1961 long-form in any way, nor does it say that the information in either the short-form or the long form is correct. Hawaii officials are forbidden to do that, as she explained: "'Unfortunately the way state laws are written we are not allowed to confirm vital information and vital records,' said Janice Okubo, a spokeswoman for Hawaii's department of health. 'I cannot confirm individual information because that is against the law.'"[21]. Is any of this important enough to mention in the main text of the present article? No.Ferrylodge (talk) 19:12, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

List Of Campain Stops

An important list of campain stops would be a good edition to this article. Forteto42 —Preceding unsigned comment added by Forteto42 (talk • contribs) 15:34, 8 December 2008 (UTC)

Not for this article, but if someone is that interested in doing it, a list article might be created and linked to the campaign article. That being said, I'm not sure how necessary such a list article would be.. Seems to be quite a bit of listcruft to me. --Bobblehead ^(rants) 17:51, 8 December 2008 (UTC)