User talk:Jimbo Wales

Amazon to take legal action against sockpuppets

In the Sunday Times this morning, report about how Amazon plans to sue people who write fake reviews. According to the report:

• They will force them to pay 'treble' damages and legal fees
• They will use the courts to force sockpuppets to hand over details of their clients
• Abuse will be identified via the payment systems. "Just follow the money" says Yair Cohen, a lawyer specialising in internet law.

Peter Damian (talk) 10:06, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

That's very interesting.Here's the link. Seems that Amazon was targeted by a paid editing mill. How ridiculous to sue. Sounds like they've got a bunch of paid editing fanatics over there. Don't they realize Amazon has more important problems! I understand that unpaid reviewers from Kazakhstan skew many reviews. Coretheapple (talk) 13:31, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Is trivialising the cover up of human rights abuses in Kazakhstan really necessary, when advocating for a tougher stance on paid editing? Brustopher (talk) 22:57, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes. Coretheapple (talk) 14:05, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm shocked by how flippantly you admit to trivialising the torture of prisoners, press censorship and the killing of protesters. Please try to show a little empathy and common human decency. Consider that some users may have at times felt the dangerous consequences of government tyranny and consider you scum as a result of it. If you feel that making light of tyranny and injustice is required in the fight against corporate shills then you are a truly twisted person. You ought to be ashamed of yourself Brustopher (talk) 14:59, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

I'll make a note of it. The complaint department is closed at the moment. That's what we get for outsourcing important functions to Kazakhstan. Coretheapple (talk) 15:03, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Wow. 56 *pounds* for writing shill book reviews, and doing it so sloppily that they didn't even have to start a new account once per 450 reviews? That's something close to $50,000 to just write stupid little snippets about books nobody heard of in a transparently obvious fashion. I obviously don't know a thing about how to make money by writing. I wonder what getting a best-selling video game featured at the top of the Main Page is worth? Wnt (talk) 16:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

The 12 pound fee for the Sunday Times stops me from reading the whole article, but here's the Bloomberg and Guardian pieces.

If Amazon can sue John Does for ruining their reputation, I'd think that the WMF could do the same thing, especially when some of our paid editors engage in racketeering and extortion. What's stopping us? Smallbones_(smalltalk) 16:54, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Pinging @GeoffBrigham (WMF): just to make sure he knows about the case. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:18, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

{redact per BANREVERT}

The usual banned editor - who was banned about 7 years ago for paid editing. He made a point of identifying himself by editing the article about his business a hour before editing here. I've reverted that edit, but please leave this comment in to show his extreme hypocrisy. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 20:07, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Why did you feel the need to revert a broken link back into the article exactly? Brustopher (talk) 22:33, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Wiki-insanity it must be.--TMCk (talk) 22:39, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Observe All Rules (OAR) is one of the pillars of Wikipedia. It says, "if a rule damages the encyclopedia, be sure to follow it." Or something like that. Carrite (talk) 05:38, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Please read WP:BANREVERT. It says that anybody can revert a banned editor and they do not need to state a reason. They result of this is that a banned editors edits won't stay in the encyclopedia. Of course some misguided person (e.g. User:Brustopher) might come along a say something like "allowing a banned editor to update the link to his own press release improves the encyclopedia" but I would say that this violates WP:NOTPROMOTION. Fortunately, the reference is not needed in any case, the referenced fact is also referenced in the following (non-PR) ref. Please don't reinsert PR placed there by a banned editor. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 22:53, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

You reverted to a broken "PR" link and now you're making up an excuse.--TMCk (talk) 23:08, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
Maybe it wasn't such a good idea to draw attention to your bad edit?--TMCk (talk) 23:10, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm aware of WP:BANREVERT. I just don't understand people who adhere to a sort of BANREVERT dogmatism. Just because you can do something doesn't mean you should. I remember a recent case, where this same banned editor openly reverted a load of vandalism he'd previously added into articles. One user actually thought it would be a wise idea to revert the vandalism back into the articles! While you later came to the conclusion that the material shouldn't be there in the first place, it clearly wasn't what you thought when you reverted the link fix. If it was you would have removed the reference at the time. Brustopher (talk) 10:29, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

If you are accusing me of putting vandalism back into articles, you are wrong. I am accusing you of enabling a banned user. You want him to be able to update his links to his press releases. Why? Truth, justice, and the Wikipedia way? Smallbones_(smalltalk) 17:31, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Apologies for my vague wording. I was not trying to accuse you of being a vandal. I was just referring to a rather extreme example of BANREVERT dogmatism that happened a few months ago, where the battle against a banned editor was placed above article quality. As it stands I'm glad to know that you genuinely believed the fixing of the dead link somehow reduced the quality of the article, and were not just blindly reverting. I do however, consider it inappropriate that you've reverted all his comments on this talk page except for the one that you believe makes him look bad and hypocritical. As such I have reverted that comment. As for your last question, I think it's important to block this editor whenever his socks are discovered. He is a banned after all and shouldn't just be allowed to roam around the site. But once he's made an unambiguous improvement to an article, I think it's absurd to revert it just to punish him or something. Brustopher (talk) 23:30, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

@Smallbones: The WMF's role should never be to help private parties go after and prosecute editors for writing the wrong thing. The WMF's role could be to help make racketeering and extortion impossible, by fighting back the arbitrary and political aspect of deletion, by working to develop convenient tools to open the process to pools of randomly selected volunteers to reduce the role of the self-selected career voters.

Allowing companies to sue posters for "damaging their reputation" by speaking is extremely dangerous. Who damages a company's reputation? If a rater who doesn't read the book can be punished, why not someone who posts to a Playboy forum and tells people where to find the best nudes, or people who tell jokes that aren't funny on Reddit? Allowing companies to financially punish every Terms and Conditions violation (if not more) would make the Internet too dangerous to use at all; freedom of speech would be nothing but an ugly joke. Wnt (talk) 18:57, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I'm sorry but I think you completely missed the point of what I was trying to say. I don't think that the WMF should help private companies sue folks who disparage them here (or at least I've never considered the matter). What I am trying to say is that the WMF should sue paid editors *and* the businesses who pay them for damaging Wikipedia's reputation by putting in advertisements here. Readers should be able to trust that our articles are not written by the subjects of the article (the companies written about). Smallbones_(smalltalk) 20:07, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

I think this article is of interest to the discussion:

• I created a fake business and bought it an amazing online reputation" by Kashmir Hill, September 15, 2015: "Yelp was the only company that caught us, hiding both of the reviews I bought behind their “not recommended” click wall and not counting them in F.A.K.E.’s rating. It has software that screens out suspicious reviews, not including them in a company’s star-rating. If they see too many of them, they will penalize a business’s page, putting a “consumer alert” on the profile for 90 days warning visitors that they think the business is buying fake reviews. People on Fiverr who were selling reviews would often say “No Yelp” in their descriptions, saying it was hard to make those “stick.”"

--Atlasowa (talk) 19:41, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Re Amazon: Amazon Mechanical Turk gives businesses access to an on-demand, scalable workforce, i.a. to Curate and Create Content: "The community of Workers on Mechanical Turk can write, edit, and curate original content to help you jumpstart your site experience so that visitors see a relevant and interesting website. Example Tasks: * Summarize content or write abstracts of third-party articles. * Write articles about specific subjects based on web research." I wonder how Amazon makes sure that they are not procuring fake reviews ("content creation") themselves? --Atlasowa (talk) 19:53, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

• Amazon have a much bigger problem. I reported a large number of fake reviews of Kevin Trudeau's books, a bunch were removed but they are still selling, and showing large numbers of positive reviews for, his book on the fraudulent HCG diet. Trudeau is in jail because of this scam, and Amazon are still handing him money for it. There are also "Hulda Clark Zapper" toys on sale, books promoting Miracle Mineral Solution, and even homeopathic first aid kits. I'd love it if Amazon began to give a fuck about consumer protection, but I don't think it's happening yet. Guy (Help!) 22:03, 18 October 2015 (UTC)
• Heh, I found Amazon selling through third-party but fulfilled-by-amazon "attention supplements" that contained a deceptively labelled ingredient close enough to straight up amphetamine that if some USA really wanted, it would probably be prosecutable under the Federal Analogue Act. It took 3 calls, 3 emails, and a bunch of tweets to Amazon to even get them to look at it. Even when escalated to their safety people, it took forever to get them to understand why it wasn't a good thing to be selling a direct amphetamine analogue that had already been called out by the FDA like a year ago... Their practices are not where we should be looking for much of anything. Kevin Gorman (talk) 22:39, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

• False advertising has already been used to prosecute a Wikipedia editor, if I remember correctly. Conversely none have been prosecuted for racketeering, blackmail or extortion.
• One would have to consider the chilling effect of WMF suing people for editing Wikipedia - even those clearly in violation of ToS.

All the best: Rich Farmbrough, 19:51, 21 October 2015 (UTC).

• There would also be the question as to whether the edits involved actually were in any real way damaging to the reputation of wikipedia. That would have to be demonstrated for a suit to have any merit. That may not always be possible. And, in fact, in maybe at least some cases, it might be argued that some instances of paid editing would actually maybe help the reputation by developing what might be otherwise clearly notable but underdeveloped or missing content. John Carter (talk) 20:11, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

• Of all the excuses and rationalizations for paid editing that I've ever heard, that is by far the most creative. And thanks for the legal analysis, counselor. Coretheapple (talk) 13:33, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Echo

The other day I mentioned User:Biosthmors in a discussion. After signing the note I decided it would be nice to have his input, so I wikilinked his user name and signed the post again (with a new date stamp) - I'd heard that doing this will send a "ping" to him and draw his attention to the discussion. He didn't respond and I assumed he had nothing to add to the topic. A few days later he discovered the conversation and very much did have an important contribution to make. He hadn't gotten the "ping".

Biosthmors left a query at Wikipedia talk:Notifications#Why didn't it work?, and a volunteer left an explanation that I had trouble understanding. I left a ping for Biosthmors there, following (I think) the volunteer's instructions but he hasn't responded.

Then another volunteer on the Notifications Talk Page pointed me to a phabricator bug report from over a year ago that had been relegated to "unimportant" status. The request was when you successfully send a notification, something tells you you succeeded.

User:Quiddity has subsequently upgraded its importance to "not completely useless" or something. Wouldn't you think this was pretty fundamental to an effective notifications system?

I decided to add some encouragement to the phabricator page so clicked on "Register with LDAP" whatever that is and was told to expect a confirmation email. I opened the email and followed the link in it to a page that says "Login or register with LDAP", which I can't do because at no point in this process have I been asked to create a user name and password. Now, when I go to phabricator I can't even read or navigate through the site. I'm confronted with a page that says

"You must verify your email address to login. You should have a new email message from Phabricator with verification instructions in your inbox. If you did not receive an email, you can click the button below to try sending another one."

The new email has the same link as the first email, so now I'm effectively locked out of phabricator. Just a whine. --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 10:21, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Tracked in Phabricator
Task T68078

And the first line in this phabricator task is:

"This is a request from another user on hewiki who does not do bugzilla."

I don't "do phabricator" either (i don't want to give WMF my email address). And Anthonyhcole can't "do" it. If WMF were actually interested in what the community thinks about the importance of bugs/tasks, they would ...

*create a ping-back for phabricator mentions on-wiki*

a little like (deprecated) meta:Template:Bug, which produces:

T68078 (links from mw m w)

Click on the links to phab-linksearch in different wikis! You mention a phab task in english or german wikipedia and you automatically get links to pages that discuss the same phab task in other language wikis. Why doesn't phabricator provide those "mentions" too? --Atlasowa (talk) 18:21, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

@Atlasowa: As for logging in to Phabricator, you do not have to give the WMF your email address. That was required by the previous bug tracker, Bugzilla. @Anthonyhcole: and Atlasowa, when you go to Phabricator's login screen you'll see that it has a box that says "Login or Register - MediaWiki." Click on that and sign in with your Wikimedia username and password just like any other Wikimedia wiki, it's tied into SUL and CentralAuth. No need for LDAP. Hope that helps you participate better there, at least. Keegan (talk) 19:04, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

No, Keegan, after CentralAuth it says "Phabricator Registration: Email is required." Can you create a phabricator task for my request of on-wiki tracking of phab-tasks? --Atlasowa (talk) 19:14, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Interesting, my apologies, I didn't realize you had to have email confirmed. Anyway, I can probably do that, but let me make sure I have the right idea of what you're getting it, because I see two possibilities of what you're saying: 1. integrate the features of the deprecated m:Template:Bug to make {{tracked}} have a link to pages that link to the task on-wiki or 2. receive an on-wiki notification when pinged by @username on Phabricator. No. 1 I would think a competent template writer (read, not me) could do. No. 2 I think would be quite complicated and not likely to work, at least not anytime soon. Are you asking for either of those, or something that I'm missing? In writing this up I also found MediaWiki:Gadget-BugStatusUpdate.js, which I had completely forgotten about. You might find the gadget useful if you haven't found it yet, it allows you to query the status of a task and return the result (open, resolved, stalled, etc.). Keegan (talk) 22:05, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

I just clicked on the little button above that says "Tracked in phabricator task T68078" and it takes me to a page that says

Check Your Email

You must verify your email address to login. You should have a new email message from Phabricator with verification instructions in your inbox. If you did not receive an email, you can click the button below to try sending another one. Send Another Email.

When I follow the link in the email it takes me to

Login or Register with LDAP

LDAP Username

LDAP Password

I don't have an LDAP username or password, so now I can't even read, let alone contribute to, phabricator.

User:Keegan, would you mind just adding a comment on my behalf to the relevant bug report along the lines of "Anthony thinks this really needs to be a high priority task"? Cheers. (Did you get this ping?) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 03:18, 21 October 2015 (UTC) Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 03:24, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Making your Wikimedia Phabricator account

How to create an account on WikiMedia Phabricator using wikitech credentials

Last time i mentioned that i can't contribute to phabricator because i don't want to give WMF my email address, i was advised to "just use a throw-away email", what's your problem? Had i done that i would probably be in the same predicament as Anthonyhcole now and not even be able to read phab tasks... Great trap. --Atlasowa (talk) 13:11, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

No trap is intended at all, @AKlapper (WMF): Andre, any idea on how to get Anthonyhcole unstuck from LDAP signup? Keegan (talk) 18:57, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

The login page is currently more confusing than before. That is due to a code regression (fixes are waiting for review and deployment). I'm sorry for that. For general info how to log into Phabricator, see Creating your Phabricator account.

@Anthonyhcole: Is there a "Login or Register - MediaWiki" button displayed below all that LDAP stuff that you could click please when a Phabricator login page is shown? If there is no such MediaWiki button I am curious what the link's address is in your email.

I'm also surprised that you can't even read Phabricator. When I open a private browser window and click "Tracked in phabricator task T68078" above I can read the bug report in Phabricator without having to be logged in and that is the default for all Phabricator tasks. I'm afraid I cannot reproduce that problem. :( --AKlapper (WMF) (talk) 10:32, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Anthonyhcole, to ping, try using this format: {{u|Keegan}} or {{Ping|Keegan}}. I think the format you're using just displays the username. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 05:46, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

User:Checkingfax, per Wikipedia:Notifications, "Mentions: When your user page is linked to on any talk page or on a page in the Wikipedia: namespace by another user. A number of templates are used for this - {{U}}, {{ping}}, and {{reply to}} - will all trigger notifications. Plain links to user pages will also work: [[User:Example|]]."

Checkingfax the 2 templates that you propose might work (Mentions=notify), or maybe not, how do you know without a "mention confirmation"? And do those templates even exist in meta, or mediawiki, or dewiki etc? This is just adding complexity, not fixing the issue. --Atlasowa (talk) 10:31, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

{{ping}} in some form or another has been ported to many wikis, 107 to be exact. Keegan (talk) 18:57, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks Keegan. Above, at 03:24 21 October I added to my existing comment a link to your user page and another timestamped signature. Did you get a ping? (It's this that I'm unsure about: Adding a mention to a comment that I've already signed.) --Anthonyhcole (talk · contribs · email) 23:51, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Anthonyhcole, if you sign it, adding anything to a userpage automatically pings the owner of the userpage. If you're on any other talk page you have to:

1- Set a fresh ping to the user using one of the several ping template choices

2- Set a fresh comment

3- Set a fresh signature using ~~~ or ~~~~ or ~~~~~

Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 00:16, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I've always found that posting a message to a user's talk page is good way to ask for their input. It's very reliable and you get confirmation that you actually posted the message. NE Ent 10:38, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The ping(s) did work, yes :) Keegan (talk) 19:23, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Total number of active users

The number of users who have made at least one action in the last 30 days, seems to have risen significantly in recent weeks, topping 120,000 some time last month (as far as I can remember) and now 125,000. It'd be interesting to know if this is a new record, how many of these users are former Wikipedians returning to editing, and how significant this figure is overall. Are there any estimates as to what proportion are vandalism-only accounts at any one time? Is there also a similar figure for the number of IPs who have edited Wikipedia in the past 30 days, and a way of showing this? Thanks, --Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 15:41, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

Can you provide a link to your source of these numbers? I can't remember, off the top of my head, where these stats are kept. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 19:44, 19 October 2015 (UTC)

It seems to be here. Everymorning (talk) 01:52, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

@Rubbish computer: Re unregistered user stats, some information about the number of unregistered users and the number of edits they've made in a given week can be found at Weeklypedia. Graham87 11:16, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for all of the links. I think some editors make statements about the decline of Wikipedia that is not supported by the statistics. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 22:27, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

@Liz: @Everymorning: @Graham87: I was talking about the figures at Special:Statistics. Thanks Graham87 for letting me know. --Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 11:25, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

• We used to have a phrase for this :) Wnt (talk) 18:55, 20 October 2015 (UTC)

Rubbish computer, There is a direct template for Active Editors. I put some dynamic numbers on my Userpage:
Total pages on Wikipedia: [[6,824,445]]
Total Wikipedia edit count: 1,219,465,414
Total active Wikipedia editors: 121,919

Here is the wikicode I used:

Total pages on Wikipedia: [[[[Special:Statistics|{{NUMBEROFARTICLES}}]]]]<br>
Total Wikipedia edit count: {{NUMBEROFEDITS}}<br>
Total active Wikipedia editors: {{NUMBEROFACTIVEUSERS}}<br>

By making the NUMBEROFARTICLES template a wikilink using Special:Statistics as the wikilink target the NUMBEROFARTICLES template links to that nice Special:Statistics table which lists a lot of other helpful data. All the templates in ALL CAPS used above update dynamically when the page is refreshed. There are many such templates available for LOCALTIME, etc. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 20:15, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

@Checkingfax: Thanks! --Rubbish computer (HALP!: I dropped the bass?) 20:17, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Complaint regarding editing of Schizoaffective Disorder page

I have tried several times to remove an image of a painting entitled "Yard with Lunatics" from the Schizoaffective Disorder wiki page. In my request to have it removed I stated that having such imagery from a 1790 painting perpetuates degrading archaic language and stigmatizes individuals with mental illness who might be seeking useful information on this page regarding a serious mental illness. For some reason there is one individual who insists that this painting be on this site ... I do not understand the point. It would seem to me that if there is any possibility that this could bring harm that it could be removed. I kindly ask for some assistance with this issue. 20 October 2015 2601:401:0:C800:74E9:B600:305F:6894 (talk) 23:30, 20 October 2015 (UTC) 23:30, 20 October 2015 (UTC)2601:401:0:C800:74E9:B600:305F:6894 (talk)

Although you might have achieved the result you want, in the future you might consider starting a discussion of a problem on the talk page of an article, rather than edit-warring and then running to Jimbo's talk page for help. If an attempt at discussion doesn't produce satisfactory results, then is the time to reach out for further input. It's hard to get people to behave cooperatively with somebody who doesn't make any effort to cooperate. Looie496 (talk) 11:55, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

We should aim to collect information for educational purposes, not to minimize harm. We are not God: we do not know what knowledge incites people to harm, and when we imagine we do, we are imagining the reader as an inert object rather than as a creative entity. As it happens, the painting appears to be inappropriate, but this is because no clear connection seems to be made between this particular disorder and the painting or artist. And, alas, the same person who removed it went on to revert my plan to illustrate WP:consensus with a perfect example from 1676! Wnt (talk) 15:51, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

The Jimbo Wales user page states:

* Complaints: If you have a complaint, it's best to start with the help desk. Ask a short, friendly question, and fellow Wikipedians will be happy to help. Contacting me directly with a complaint should be reserved for after you have exhausted all other possible remedies.

If you have a complaint about article content, there are many avenues to pursue. The best and simplest way is to just fix it. You can also open a discussion on the article's talk page about the issues you want to address. Be sure that you are adding well-written text using legitimate information from credible, reliable sources. If your change is reverted, continue the [BRD]discussion on the talk page to get consensus. That is how Wikipedia works.

The talk page for Schizoaffective Disorder is [[Talk:Schizoaffective disorder]]. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 20:40, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

The Atlantic - How Wikipedia Is Hostile to Women

Just posted this afternoon. Aside from a relatively minor error about user rights near the top, Paling does a pretty good job of summarizing and drawing attention to some of the more salient trends/problems/incidents. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 18:27, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

The article is an interesting read, and highlights areas that need work. I'm sure we can all identify some items in that article that might deserve a more complete treatment of issues, but this is a minor point, and universally true in my experience whenever I read an article in the media about a subject where I have personal experience.

I am puzzled about the assertion that Nellie A. Brown was nominated for deletion immediately after creation. I don't see it in the edit history, nor did I find it in the AFD logs. Am I missing something?--S Philbrick(Talk) 20:26, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

This is another factual error by the writer, Sphilbrick. The article in question is Clara H. Hasse, as confirmed on Facebook by Missvain (Sarah Stierch). At the time a new page patroller flagged it for deletion, the content consisted of "Clara H. Hasse (1880?-1924) was an assistant horticulturist and botanist in the Bureau of Plant Industry, U.S. Department of Agriculture, Washington, D.C., and later worked at the Florida Experiment Station." Not a strong claim of notability. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:47, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for tracking that down. That's exactly what I wanted to do, see what it looked like at the time of nomination. There are lessons to be leanred form that article. One potential lesson is that taggers should allow a bit more time before nomination, but, arguably, an equally valid lesson is that draft space was created for stubs like this. The only lesson which doesn't seem supported is the notion that gender was involved.--S Philbrick(Talk) 01:26, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Eric Corbett is not an administrator, as the article states incorrectly. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 20:36, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

And nothing indicating Lightbreather's ban was for their disruptive editing on gun control topics. It seems the reader is deliberately left to draw their own (wrong) conclusions. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:25, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

FWIW, the author expressed (via Twitter) that she's trying to have that line (EC=admin) corrected. — Rhododendrites ^talk \\ 21:28, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Eric, does that give you a claim for defamation :) --S Philbrick(Talk) 01:11, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

To be fair there's nothing in the actual Arbcom decision indicating that her ban was for disputive editing on gun control topics either. It simply states "Lightbreather is site-banned. They may request reconsideration of the ban no earlier than one year after it is enacted." Not only that but 4 of the arbs who voted to support the ban cite her reaction to the porn pictures as what's pushed them over the edge. The words "gun control" are not mentioned once in the support section for the ban. Brustopher (talk) 21:32, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

The findings of fact overwhelmingly refer to her gun control edits. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:41, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Of course, Paling’s argument remains devastating: calling a woman a cunt is permissible, but that woman’s feisty editing was intolerable, even after taking into account vicious and unremitting sexual harassment. Indeed, ArbCom initially urged future culprits faced with harassment to lower their profile -- an invidious recommendation that was reluctantly amended after community outcry.

In the big picture, petty procedural details have no impact outside Wikipedia, while Wikipedia's continuing embrace of harassment and protection of harassers remains the key story for the world outside the project’s back rooms. MarkBernstein (talk) 22:22, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

Were you correctly quoted? "the easiest way to avoid being called a cunt is not to act like one." Smallbones_(smalltalk) 02:42, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The quote is correct, unfortunately. The link is here.AKAF (talk) 05:55, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

In which the only specific person referenced is Jimbo... Rhoark (talk) 02:04, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Excellent article. Another example the article could have mentioned is the awful way that women editors are generally treated in WP's science and alternative medicine articles by WP's "pro-science" editors. Cla68 (talk) 22:44, 21 October 2015 (UTC)

It seems to me that some editors encounter opposition because they promote the theories of what Jimbo calls "lunatic charlatans", not because of their genders. Cullen³²⁸ Let's discuss it 00:57, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

It's rarely as black and white as all that, and yes, there may well be a gender issue in some of the articles I've seen though I don't see the issue raised much. Not at all in the ongoing GMO arbitration to my knowledge. Coretheapple (talk) 13:53, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Cullen328, there's an essay on [[lunatic charlatans]]. Cheers! {{u|Checkingfax}} {Talk} 01:09, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The article doesn't say that Eric Corbett is an admin now, but rather that he was an admin at the time of this discussion. However, the log for Corbett's userpage gives no hint that this was ever the case. So yes, it seems to be wrong (not that there was any reason to doubt Corbett's own word that it was). I just wished I'd looked here before I looked around for Corbett's RFA (both under his current username and his previous one). Everymorning (talk) 02:37, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

• The Atlantic piece is distorted, one-sided, self-serving petunia fertilizer. As is fairly typical of most Mainstream Media "Wikipedia Scandal and Hysteria — Click here!" pieces, actually... Carrite (talk) 05:55, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Why is it that in eight years and almost sixty thousand edits I cannot recall seeing even one instance of gender based attacks on editors? Have I somehow managed to avoid entering the lawless ghetto areas of en.WP? Are there particular topics or subject areas that "attract" such misogynism? I'm aware of, but do not even pretend to understand "Gamergate", probably because computer/video games are a topic I have absolutely no interest in. I very occasionally post to th WikiProject Feminism talk page, (usually in my AFC reviewer role to solicit topic specialist help for reviewing draft submissions) but even there I don't see attacks, probably because they get redacted really quickly. So basically I'm asking if there are particular areas where the hate occurs, and if so could action be specifically targetted, rather than the constant, non-specific bleating about the issue (here and in the media) that almost never results in any positive action. Roger (Dodger67) (talk) 10:06, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

If only there were news articles documenting specific attacks where you could read about them and realize they exist. Gamaliel (talk) 13:14, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Now that there is a bit of sneaky sarcasm! Well, done. --MurderByDeadcopy^"bang!" 22:21, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

If you understand how distorted this Atlantic piece is, then you understand Gamergate. Rhoark (talk) 02:11, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

• What is the proportion of rude and stupid persons among all these people born from a woman ? It could be be rather high, and the present thread is not a counter-example. If we try to cross-examine the situation introducing sex or gender or any other parameter of this kind as an explanatory variable, the first impression is that men as a whole are more rude/stupid than women as a whole. But this should be pondered, because the first group appears as including more vociferating people. When corrected from the vociferans factor, the sex factor appears to be very less explicative about the stupidity/rudeness by itself. For the specific case of the may be former admin that has been reported by some reporter, calling him a cunt could appear as promotional. But calling him a dick could appear as sarcastic: don't we have a proverb, in such and such corners of the English speaking world, about smaller/greater speeches and smaller/greater dicks ? Therefore, let us limit ourself to: the lapser has relapsed. Pldx1 (talk) 12:27, 22 October 2015 (UTC)
  • I would say the proportion of rude and stupid persons born from a woman is 100%. I've also seen the movie Junior though, so I could be wrong.--Atlan (talk) 12:45, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

• Incorrectly describing Eric Corbett as an administrator whilst naming three female admins but not describing them as administrators is sloppy journalism but arguably only one mistake. Other articles on the same site that criticise institutions make it clear that they asked the institution for a comment, I wonder if Eric Corbett was extended that same courtesy by the journalist who criticized him on the internet? Also one of the central charges in the Atlantic piece is that Arbcom refused to sanction the offsite harasser "on the grounds that it may “out” the editor that had posted the pictures, or link his username to his real name". but looking at the Arbcom judgement "The functionaries team reviewed evidence submitted about off-wiki sexual harassment of Lightbreather, but was unable to reach a consensus over whether or not it was sufficient to connect a Wikipedia editor to the harassment. The Wikimedia Foundation was kept fully informed throughout. The functionaries and the Arbitration Committee also reviewed evidence of a separate, apparently unrelated, pattern of off-wiki harassment. As there was conclusive evidence of the identity of the perpetrator of the second series of events, User:Two kinds of pork was blocked." That looks to me a non-trivial difference both in that ARBCOM do block where the evidence is clear and that their reason for not blocking was quality of evidence not a preference to protect the perpetrator. Was there an earlier finding that means the article was just a few months out of date? ϢereSpielChequers 12:56, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

• The chronology in the article is also wrong. We were notified of the off-wiki harassment two weeks AFTER the case started. This is another non-trivial difference,  Roger Davies ^talk 17:33, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Let's not forget that we can attack the fake-porn harassment from the far end. WMF should make a clear policy that it will not discriminate against any employee, volunteer, or editor based on whether he or she has appeared naked, whether in a fraud, "revenge porn", or legitimate erotica. By setting a standard that this is not a legitimate ground for discrimination, we can take away a bit of the power of people who try this kind of stunt anywhere, against any woman known or unknown, and move a little bit closer to the day when such harassment will never occur because people know it cannot be effective. Wnt (talk) 15:47, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

There exists a world beyond the Wikipedia and the Wikimedia Foundation, and in that world, having one’s faked nudes publicized can have chilling effects on employment prospects. MarkBernstein (talk) 18:11, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

@MarkBernstein: But dammit, it shouldn't. It's wrong, it's stupid, and it's a clear source of anti-woman discrimination, because so many more people circulate fake (and real) nudes of them. And if Wikipedia doesn't have the balls to stand up and say enough is enough to this nonsense, who do we expect to? Companies don't lead a civil rights parade - people do. And Wikipedia is the people's encyclopedia. Wnt (talk) 21:31, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

That may be true, but pretending that a WMF statement will make everything fine seems would be wrong. I'd also note that the same tactic can be, and has been, used by Gamergate against prominent Wikipedians who are gay, or whom they thought to be gay, or whom they believed could be intimidated by threats to expose their sexual orientation. The answer to sexual harassment at Wikipedia is to punish the harassers, not their targets; Paling is not the first to suggest this, and her article is a good index of how the project appears to the interested public. It’s not a pretty picture. MarkBernstein (talk) 21:42, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

@MarkBernstein: If we oppose a kind of sexual discrimination, then stopping every such case that ends at Wikipedia is about equally useful as stopping the cases that begin here. Either way, it is part of a much larger task, but it is something worth doing. (I don't mean to discourage anyone from attacking the problem at both ends.) Wnt (talk) 21:53, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The article reads like it was written by Evergreenfir. They should be embarrassed with themselves publishing it. There is no male harassment of women on wikipedia, it's all in the heads of the gender gap gang. Wikipedia is hostile to everybody, and I mean everybody. And it makes no difference if you're male or female, or what race you are. Everybody is treated poorly here by default .♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:01, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

If you think Wikipedia doesn't have a problem with women, you must be – pardon my French – fucking stupid. Wikipedia culture bends over backwards to protect certain privileged people from accountability for their actions. In any other institution on the planet, calling a woman a "cunt" would mean you'd be expelled pretty sharpish, not given mutually masturbatory accolades and respect. Sceptre ^(talk) 18:22, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I just find it interesting and quite humorous that literally the first thing after saying "everyone is treated poorly" is that the poster is "fucking stupid." I think that very well just proved his point, didn't it? Sethyre (talk) 22:51, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I've asked about half a dozen women I know who happen to be very active content contributors and active with women topics on here and none of them have ever thought they've been harassed because of their gender on wikipedia. They really don't see that sort of thing going on on here and believe that all editors face the same problems here. The c word was unfortunate but in the UK it is almost always directed at an annoying male, it was never intended to be offensive to women, in the way that calling somebody a dick isn't meant as harassing males sexually. It has been totally blown out of proportion by Americans on here who just don't get the context it was used in.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:35, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, women who were insulted by being called cunts should feel bad, because CLEARLY they don't understand the cultural context that makes such comments ok. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 20:48, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

If only women would just listen to your mansplaining, everything would be just fine. Everyone gets called a cunt? Everyone gets fake porn made about them? I've been here a decade and I've been harassed, doxxed, blackmailed, gotten death threats, there's a webpage out there with my face next to a nazi flag. And all of that pales in comparison to what women have been subjected to here. Because everyone gets shabby treatment does not mean that all the treatment is the same. Even if that were true, the answer isn't "suck it up, ladies", it's "what do we do about this problem?" Gamaliel (talk) 18:25, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

We all face hostility on here Gamaliel, but the idea that women are being especially being targeted with extra hostility or harassment because they're women is utter bollocks. It doesn't happen in the groups I'm involved with, we treat each other as equals. This women harassment thing is all in the heads of the gender gap group. Most of the people I see speaking mostly strongly on the women harassment thing on here are transgender and I think there's a reason for it. ♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:37, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Pure nonsense. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 18:41, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Where's the evidence beyond Eric calling somebody a cunt that women are being viciously attacked and harassed constantly on here because I really don't see it. Now wikipedia is a big site I'm sure there's certain comments made from time to time which could be perceived as misogyny, but the idea that all women are constantly being attacked on here because they're a women is utter bollocks.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:43, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Blofeld, you sound like the kind of person who walks past a Black Lives Matter protest, and thinks its appropriate to say "no, no, all lives matter!". Corbett is just one example of the misogynist scourge on Wikipedia. Remember Bedford, who Jimbo personally desysopped for calling female admins "feminazis"? Or Kmweber, who made a habit of harassing women but ArbCom refused to take any action on him? Sceptre ^(talk) 18:47, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

You state that you're transgender, of course you feel very strongly on it as I think you're likely to perceive society as giving you a hard time anyway. Transgender people in society do unfortunately face discrimination. You may have experienced it on here I don't know, but I've really asked a lot of women editors I know, who are very active on here and some of them constantly work on women articles, and none of them have ever felt like they're being harassed because they're female.♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:51, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

That's as fallacious as saying "There isn't a poverty problem because some of my friends on welfare can still pay their rent". Sceptre ^(talk) 18:53, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

If I do see women getting a hard time on here it's usually from another female. I never see a bunch of male editors all ganging up on one editor because she's female. I'd go as far as to say that a lot of us decent males here feel protective of some of our female colleagues, quite the opposite of the "harassment".♦ Dr. Blofeld 18:55, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I should amend my previous comment; you sound like the kind of person who walks past a Black Lives Matter protest and asks "but what about black-on-black crime?" Sceptre ^(talk) 18:57, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Show me 10-20 diffs of direct attacks/bullying by males towards females on wikipedia and I might start to see what you see. As it is no female editor I know faces harassment and I seem to work a lot more with women editors on here than male.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:02, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

"I'm just not seeing this alleged misogyny", says editor who calls people "cunts" all the time. Sceptre ^(talk) 19:50, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I find it telling how few (any?) female editors are choosing to participate in this discussion even when the article concerns their experience on Wikipedia. A hostile environment doesn't just mean personal attacks, it can mean that a person feels like their words will be minimized, ridiculed or contradicted.

Of course, you don't need to be female to get this response from other editors. But to a new editor who is checking out a community's environment, trying to decide whether to become an active editor, it definitely can send a message saying, "You are unwelcome here since you don't know all of the rules." I think one reason why the Teahouse is so popular is because it is a safe space where new editors can ask questions when they doesn't understand what is going on and they'll get a response that is not only civil but usually sympathetic, too. That is often not the case on many article talk pages. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 18:54, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

The article also claims that out of all editors with over 500 edits only 6% are women. That's utter tosh too, especially as most editors who are largely inactive never identify as male or female. If you're a regular contributor here you should feel like it's a lot more even.♦ Dr. Blofeld 19:24, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, exactly how it seems to me.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:07, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld: You're seeing an article in which women talk about their experiences with harassment on enwp, and this does not jibe with the experiences of your female friends on enwp. How does this lead you to the conclusion that "women aren't harassed on Wikipedia" and not "some women are harassed on Wikipedia, though evidently not the ones I've spoken to"? GorillaWarfare (talk) 19:54, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I've asked most of the women editors I know and none of them have experienced harassment. You only have to look at the tone and inaccuracies of that Atlantic article to not trust a thing it says. Obviously the gender gap lot have been in contact with the editor of it, it's not a fair article. Now wiki is a big site, I'm sure there are some women editors who do think at times somebody has said something misogynistic but to paint the whole website as strongly hostile to just women or that most women editors are constantly being bullied and harassed because they're female is utter nonsense. Everybody experiences the problems with the website, and it's not because of the gender or colour of one's skin. As I say, show me 10 to 20 diffs of obvious malicious harassment of women because of their gender from a range of different people and I might start to see what you're talking about.♦ Dr. Blofeld 20:07, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Blofeld, you might listen to me; please drop this. That you don't see it is a testament to the efficiency of the oversighters at getting rid of the crap and the checkusers at stopping the worst of the nutters coming back; as a former CU/OS I assure that editors who identify as female get bombarded with significantly more crap than male or unidentified users, particularly if they have a photo on their userpage. There's certainly a legitimate debate to be had over whether the gender gap exists to the extent the WMF claim, and if so to what degree that's a problem, but "women statistically are more likely to attract nutters" is really not up for debate. ‑ iridescent 20:21, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't agree, sorry, and I'm very surprised that you agree with the gender gap lot on this. I see absolutely no proof that every female editor is actively being harassed on here. Show me the proof and I might come around to seeing what is apparently going on.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:26, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

What reason do you have to doubt iridescent's evidence? Why should we take your gut feeling over this testimony? Gamaliel (talk) 21:37, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

That's not evidence. It's assertion. "That which can be asserted without evidence can be dismissed without evidence." (Source--for the "plagiarism" police: Christopher Hitchens.) Writegeist (talk) 21:40, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

By that logic we should also dismiss Blofeld's evidence-free assertion that this is not happening. Gamaliel (talk) 21:44, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

(inserting) I’m surprise you didn’t see that as self-evident in what I said. If I really must spell it out for you: when Iridescent makes an assertion without evidence, Dr. B (or anyone) can dismiss it without evidence. Which in turn is obviously mere assertion. And so on. Writegeist (talk) 22:44, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I was thinking precisely the same thing. His evidence is "Some people said a thing never happens", whereas we actually have people here, in this very discussion, saying that it does. It's a breathtaking display of ignorance and I-didn't-hear-that from an editor that many people respected for a long time. UltraExactZZ ^Said ~ Did 21:52, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia? Hostile to women? Publicly? How about those in a position to do something just inspect their navels & hope the mess goes away? Until the next time. AnonNep (talk) 22:00, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

@Dr. Blofeld: There have been numerous articles discussing the harassment of women on Wikipedia. People such as Sue Gardner have discussed it as a serious issue. Now female victims of harassment on Wikipedia have identified it as a major problem, and you're implying that they're making it up. At this point I'm starting to wonder what exactly it would take to convince you that this is a real issue; somehow I doubt even providing your requested 10 to 20 examples will satisfy this, but here goes. I didn't include diffs on many of these because they have been revision-deleted or suppressed. It was easy to find this number of examples just to do with me; I did not need to look at other women who have been targets of gendered and sexual harassment due to their involvement on this site.

1. After my picture was used on the fundraising banners, lots of gendered harassment. Note that, to my knowledge, the men featured on the banners did not receive a similar response. [1] [2] [3] [4]
2. A link to my private Facebook account was posted on my talkpage, as well as in other places around the internet (4chan, Encyclopedia Dramatica, reddit)
3. Comments telling me to edit less and make more sandwiches, and suggesting that people will not donate unless the banners feature nude photos of me.
4. Comments implying I was sexually involved with Jimbo Wales.
5. People dug to find relatives of mine who had Facebook profiles with less strict privacy settings, and shared photos of me from them to various websites. Many of them were digitally altered: my face was photoshopped onto photos of porn actresses, photos of penises were pasted onto them, and in a photo of me holding my niece, she was photoshopped so she appeared black, and the photo was captioned with racial slurs and the suggestion that she was my child. Many of these were captioned so that they would appear in Google searches for my name or username.
6. Comments on my appearance in a content dispute. (Comments on appearance are a common component of gendered harassment: [5])
7. Sustained harassment via IRC from a former Wikipedian, primarily consisting of extremely crude sexual fantasies about me and another Wikipedian.
8. Sustained harassment from someone who was angry that a Wikipedia article was deleted, primarily consisting of gendered slurs and asking if I had gotten cancer yet as some karmic retribution for my actions
9. This whole situation: [6] [7]
10. Posts were made implying I was elected to the Arbitration Committee because of my appearance, my sexual involvement with Wikipedians, or because of tongue piercings
11. I've been receiving talk page messages and emails for about two months now from someone asking me to marry him, often including photos of wedding dresses he would like me to wear. Often from emails like mollywhiteismywife@[domain.com].
12. Thankspam from accounts like "I love Molly White's Breast Milk", "Molly White's Bra", "I love you Molly White", "MollyWhite s Husband", as well as comments about my appearance, my breasts, and how they would like to have sex with me.
13. A different slew of accounts with names like "IHeartGorillaWarfare" asking if I have a boyfriend, and again implying I had sex with Jimbo.
14. A few IPs telling me he knew where I lived and where I worked, making comments about my sex life and whether my coworkers are involved in it, and asking to have sex with me.
15. [8]

So, does this fit your standards of what constitutes gendered harassment, or is it still "all in my head?" GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:14, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

As an additional note, I don't think anyone is arguing that "every female editor is actively being harassed on here". Even the byline of the article that started this whole discussion is (emphasis mine) "Some female editors have been the target of harassment from their male colleagues". The argument that I'm trying to make is that women are particularly targeted. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:19, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

And differently targeted. Almost all harassment of men that I am aware of is very closely related to or as a result of their own actions, primarily on-wiki, rather than simply for being male or for an attribute of their appearance. I have to say though, the idea that tongue piercings could be at all relevant to arbcom elections is mind boggling! Thryduulf (talk) 23:35, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

I disagree that it's mind-boggling. The implication is that I have been fellating those who voted for me, and you'll see from my other examples that "she's sexually involved with Wikipedians" is a fairly common trope at this point. Attempting to discount a woman's contributions or achievements by suggesting she's slept with people to make it happen is a fairly prime example of gendered harassment, and one that many Wikipedians are all-too-familiar with by this point. GorillaWarfare (talk) 23:52, 22 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Ah, I hadn't linked the tongue piercing comments with the allegations of sexual activity comments (which I'm well aware of the existence of, sadly). Without that context, it seemed a rather odd thing to suggest was relevant to anyone's voting. Thryduulf (talk) 00:17, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

I see from your clarification that you didn't mean your "mind-boggling" comment this way, Thryduulf, but it set me off on this train of thought, so I'm going to plunk my response here even though it's speaking more "generally" than "to you": the saddest thing to me in this discussion is that it's not mind-boggling at all to any of the people - many of whom are probably reading this thread now, and even more of whom don't even know this discussion is going on - who have been subjected to similar treatment. In my years on Wikipedia I've had gender-based harassment directed at me very much like Molly's in some ways. Each case is different, of course, but there has been template vandalism insulting my appearance, offwiki commentary about who I'm sleeping with and whether I advance my onwiki "career" by sleeping with men, a troll once registered a domain identifying me by my full name and used it to host content going into graphic detail about my dox and my supposed sexual history, another one once sent me an email threatening to "reveal to the world" that I used a pseudonym (this one with rather dark irony - I mean hey, who uses a pseudonym on the internet, what, are people going to dox you or something? ...Oh) The list goes on from there. So none of it - nothing Molly has described and almost nothing I see other victims describe anymore - is at all mind-boggling to me, even though it might be to people who have been fortunate enough to not have been victimized or had people they personally know victimized. And that's sort of the point: to the rest of us - and oh, there are a lot of us, more than you'd ever be aware unless you happened to know us, because "someone wrote 'fanfic' about my sexual history" is not something I often bring up in conversations - it's the same old, depressing, horrifying news. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 00:45, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

I have to agree that it is likely that the percentage of pervs and vandals and harassers is probably as high here as it is in a lot of other websites. And, as someone who has seen some of the comments made by some others posted at WO and elsewhere, there is good reason to think that some of the "enemies" female editors here might have at other web sites is probably higher than the amount of harassment males get. We tend to have more male editors than female ones, and a lot of sometimes disugustingly foul-mouthed INTJs and others of a perhaps somewhat antisocial nature. This makes it, unfortunately, more likely that some of that large number of regulars and others here are going to target the females, who tend to be the most frequent targets anyway.

Some of us guys are, let's face it, scum. And a lot of those scum are really into the internet as a social outlet. I wish that weren't the case, and I regret that some of the declared females have had to put up with as much as they have. Unfortunately, hoping no one sees this as a copout, I actually don't have a clue how to institute changes to make this site any safer overall for female editors than the internet in general is. I wish that weren't the case though, and would love to see some ideas. John Carter (talk) 01:05, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the diffs. Something I've always found amazing is that for any other sort of claim, diffs are an expected part of the process, but when talking about gender-based harassment, we're expected to take the complaints on faith -- this is literally the first time in ten years that I've seen a complaint about gender-based harassment that was backed by diffs. --Carnildo (talk) 01:15, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Although I did play ball here, this is not something I want to encourage for three major reasons:

1. I had to skate fairly close to the lines when I discussed the harassment that has since been revision-deleted or suppressed—administrators and oversighters are expected not to share information that has been hidden, so this makes for an unfortunate catch-22 when it comes to providing diffs. This is the same reason the community has more or less accepted things like oversight, checkuser, and ArbCom blocks on the "just believe us" rationale.
2. Posting diffs of the harassment only draws attention to information that the victims might not necessarily want eyes on. If I was expected to post a diff of someone posting a link to my personal Facebook account, or a link to someone sharing doctored images of my face on porn actresses, I most likely wouldn't.
3. Requiring diffs completely ignores the issue of harassment that begins due to on-wiki issues but then moves offsite. This can be some of the most vicious harassment—people finding your personal email address, contacting your family, posting photos of you elsewhere, etc. We have no functional way of dealing with this harassment currently, and requiring diffs only worsens this. GorillaWarfare (talk) 01:23, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

Yep. The only onwiki item from "my" list that I provided above (the template vandalism, which transcluded insults, etc against me all over the project) has since been oversighted...because it contained, if I recall correctly (I have absolutely no idea how I would go back now and find which particular template was edited in any particular instance of this, but I assure you I remember quite vividly the mortification and feeling of helplessness, and the horror my father expressed when the troll called his home phone number, found via doxx someone else had published on me, to tell him just how and why his daughter was internet-famous), my home address and some other highly personal information. Much of the harassment people experience is just not diff-able, and what is diff-able is often so intensely personal or embarrassing that, if it hasn't already been oversighted, it's not something someone will speak about publicly if that means they have to show their shame - and it does indeed feel like a personal shame to people who have been victimised this way - to thousands of people watchlisting a page like like Jimmy's talk. A fluffernutter is a sandwich! (talk) 01:39, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

I just want to say that I can confirm GW's and iridescent's assertions as a checkuser and oversighter. --Guerillero | Parlez Moi 00:09, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

• All I'll say is that it is possible for Wikipedia (like every single crowd-sourced website, ever) to have female editors that have experienced harassment (as far as I am aware, the account operated by the person who sexually harassed Lightbreather is still not blocked) and for this article to be mostly bollocks. The two are not mutually exclusive. Black Kite (talk) 01:07, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

• Oh, and since I've just noticed it, whoever it was that suggested (presumably off-line) that Kirill block Eric (Kirill's first block for a year) for responding to a thread making false statements about him; you're a complete fucking idiot, and so is Kirill for falling for your shit. Next time, have the guts to stand by your blocks yourself. Do you take us all for idiots? No, obviously you do. Silly of me. Black Kite (talk) 01:17, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

This is Eric's 6th block in 2015, and he clearly violated his topic ban. He has asked that he not be unblocked and stated that he will not return to Wikipedia. It's about time. Smallbones_(smalltalk) 01:48, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

• Perhaps you could have a party to celebrate whilst, yet again, the actual harassers of women here get away scot-free. Black Kite (talk) 01:53, 23 October 2015 (UTC)

This is so silly — Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.143.130.12 (talk) 02:48, 23 October 2015 (UTC)