Wikipedia:Deletion review

This page is about articles, not about people. If you feel that a sysop is routinely deleting articles prematurely, or otherwise abusing their powers, please discuss the matter on the user's talk page, or at Wikipedia talk:Administrators. If you nominate an article here, be sure to make a note on the sysop's user talk page regarding your nomination. A template, {{subst:DRVNote}} is available to make this easier.

Similarly, if you are a sysop and an article you deleted is subsequently undeleted, please don't take it as an attack.

Proposed deletions

Articles deleted under the Wikipedia:Proposed deletion procedure (using the {{PROD}} tag) may be undeleted, without a vote, on reasonable request. Any admin can be asked to do this, alternatively a request may be made here. However, such undeleted articles are open to be speedy deleted or nominated for WP:AFD under the usual rules.

• none currently listed

Instructions

Before listing a review request, please:

1. Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
2. Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.

Steps to list a new deletion review

1.	Click here and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the page, xfd_page with the name of the deletion discussion page (leave blank for speedy deletions), and reason with the reason why the discussion result should be changed. For media files, article is the name of the article where the file was used, and it shouldn't be used for any other page. For example: {{subst:drv2 |page=File:Foo.png |xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png |article=Foo |reason= }} ~~~~
2.	Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page: {{subst:DRV notice|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~
3.	For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach <noinclude>{{Delrev|date=2024 May 15}}</noinclude> to the top of the page under review to inform current editors about the discussion.
4.	Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion: If the deletion discussion's subpage name is the same as the deletion review's section header, use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 May 15}}</noinclude> If the deletion discussion's subpage name is different from the deletion review's section header, then use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 May 15|page=SECTION HEADER AT THE DELETION REVIEW LOG}}</noinclude>

Commenting in a deletion review

Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:

• Endorse the original closing decision; or
• Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
• List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
• Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
• Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
• Some consider it a courtesy, to other DRV participants, to indicate your prior involvements with the deletion discussion or the topic.

Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted:

• *'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~
• *'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~
• *'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~
• *'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~

Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.

The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.

Temporary undeletion

Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}} template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.

Closing reviews

A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.

If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:

• If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
• If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.

Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)

Speedy closes

• Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
• Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
• Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
• Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".

14 June 2006

Lost: The Journey

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lost: The Journey
• Overturn and delete. The final tally was six deletes, one transwiki, one merge/delete, and one keep. However, closing admin Lar (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) decided to act on his own initiative to countermand the consensus, stating instead there was no consensus because he felt that the one "keep" vote's reasoning was strong enough. I frankly don't follow his logic or understand what he found so notable about the one keep vote, but I think he's enforcing his own opinion over the decided-upon community consensus with this article, and thus appeal his decision here (as he invited people to do when closing the decision). — Mike • 02:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • A review of Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators#Rough consensus does not appear to yield any means by which seven out of nine votes — votes that were very clearly not made in bad faith — can be entirely discarded by the closing admin. — Mike • 03:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• I welcome review of this one, because it was dicey for me when I made the call. I acknowledge that numerically, the margin was wide. I don't think any of the comments (NOT votes) were made in bad faith at all, and didn't diacount the sentiments, but I was quite convinced by the argument made by ArgentiumOutlaw and after all, this is a judgement call, not a nose count. Naturally I think I got to the right outcome and would say Keep kept. But I welcome input from my peers, and thank you in advance for it. (BTW I'm excited, because this is my first DRV!) ++Lar: t/c 03:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I mean this respectfully, but when reviewing the Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators document, I did not see anything within the document, barring bad faith situations, that allows an administrator to ignore the principle of rough consensus when making a decision closing a document. There is the paragraph that begins, "Some opinions can override all others," but the examples cited (copyvio, userfy, WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV) do not seem to apply to the votes comments cast. — Mike • 03:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I have some learnings from this I'll be posting later as well as more responses but I'll let some of those sit. I do have one thing I want to point out which you'll just have to take my word for. Several commenters here are saying I let my personal feeling convince me how to close. Well, in part, that's where judgement does need to come in, on a close call, add in your own feeling... that's sometimes right and proper in my view (if the alternative is to relist for consensus the third time or do nothing, for example). But in this case, my PERSONAL view, had I chose to commment (on a 5 day overdue for close nom) instead of close... would have been DELETE. Clips are a bit more notable than regular episodes but I do not think any show, even this one, needs an article for every episode. I overlooked that view, because thought at the time that the fact that MedCab/Com was working on this was a reason not to rush this, leave it around, and let them resolve it later. (others below point out that's not necessarily a really good reason...). Also, the medcab argument was made late in the discussion. Arguments made late, if not commented on by people that commented before they were aware of the facts, tend to carry more weight with me when judging consensus. And make no mistake, I was judging consensus without taking my personal desire to delete into account. If this goes back on AfD I'll leave it to someone else to close, so I can comment DELETE. I just don't think that was the right thing to do in view of the mediation thing. If it gets overturned, I'll delete it myself and happily, unless someone beats me to it. One BIG learning I have from this already is the need to explain in more detail when necessary (check out Splash's Phil Sandifer close explanation, it's a model. I hope to be that good someday)... ++Lar: t/c 16:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete, I fail to see what was so strong about the one keep comment that ruled out six delete comments. (Disclaimer: I voted delete in the AfD in question.) BryanG^(talk) 03:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • comment Seven, actually. There was a merge/delete in there. — Mike • 03:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not really a valid vote. You can't merge *and* delete, the edit history needs to be preserved. Closers typically count those as keep votes, since they wanted to keep the content, just didn't understand the finer points of the GFDL. Transwiki votes go as keeps too, while we're at it, since the person also wanted to keep the content. --W.marsh 03:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

And that's why I didn't count the merge/delete vote, although looking at it again I would interpret it as "merge if considered useful or delete". But then, I'm not an admin. It wasn't a straight delete comment anyway, so I'm not counting it as such. BryanG^(talk) 03:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks W.marsh. SO if we ARE insisting on counting votes here, it's 6:3. That's 66% which is a Keep No Consensus. I have a couple of other bones to pick here... first, Mike you keep talking about good faith, and I wish you would stop, because I saw no comments I judged to be in bad faith. Second, you keep citing the Deletion Guideline like it's a process that cannot be deviated from. It's not the law, it's a guide... and we admins are asked to use our judgement. I hope you have internalised that before you become an admin yourself. Third, you suggest I'm "enforcing my own opinion"... "countermanding consensus"... that's not at all fair, those terms are quite loaded, in my view anyway. What I did was look at the arguments made, look at the article and its contents, and made a considered judgement that there wasn't a consensus to delete. That's what the closing admin is supposed to do. This article was 4 days overdue for a decision and I've been thinking about it for some time (I looked at a lot of these on my lunch hour). I also asked some of my admin colleauges on IRC for their thoughts and they agreed with me that K-NC was the right outcome. I'm hopeful that some of them will pop in here. Maybe I'm wrong though and this really was a Delete. I'd like to learn from it if that's the case... but telling me to read something that's a guide, and that I've already read, isn't going to help me learn. ++Lar: t/c 03:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

First, I am citing good faith solely in the context of the deletion guidelines citing bad faith as a valid reason to delete. I am not applying the concept of good or bad faith to your actions. I am bringing it up solely in the context of citing the relevant policy and guidelines that address the actions you take when closing a vote.

Second, I would again repeat my request for any Wikipedia policy or document that provides administrators with the freedom to use their judgment to make a decision that goes against rough consensus when making deletion closures. The relevant cites I can find indicate that in the deletion policy, it states, "At the end of the discussion, if a rough consensus for deletion has been reached, the page will be removed per Wikipedia:Deletion process; otherwise the page remains." Rough consensus is defined as outlined in this subsection, with a link to this Wikipedia article.

Third, were we to make the case that a vote, through some improper terminology, should not be included, it should not be included in the total when considering what proportion of the votes are delete votes. In other words, it is not that six out of nine votes were cast to delete, it is that six out of seven votes (85%) were cast to delete. But I really don't agree with those figures, either. That leads me into ...

Fourth, I disagree that the merge/delete vote should not be counted. The text of that vote states, "Merge anything useful into the main Lost article ... otherwise Delete if there is nothing that editors of that article consider to be useful." I believe the text of that vote quite effectively counts as a delete vote. That would make this seven out of eight votes (87.5%).

— Mike • 04:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure well within his discretion, especially considering you can argue that the votes were 3/9 in favor of keeping, and that's a marginal consensus to delete at best. Lar probably should have just said "no consensus" though - since that is different than closing as a pure keep (now more than ever, see the recent changes to Wikipedia:Speedy keep). --W.marsh 03:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Point of information, it was a Keep No Consensus not a pure keep. Both the close in AfD and the notice on the article talk say Keep No Consensus... ++Lar: t/c 03:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure I don't see anything particularly wrong with it. The article is bare, but this aired on ABC and Lost has lots of viewers. That lends enough notability that it can be mentioned somewhere imo, and AFD is not the best place to decide merging. Kotepho 04:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • comment You're commenting on content, not on process — see above: "Remember that Deletion Review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the (action) specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate." — Mike • 04:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  I did both and there is plenty of commenting on content to go around on DRV. Kotepho 04:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Then I'd ask whatever admin who will review these items and make a decision to ignore your response, given that you're explicitly and self-admittedly not going by WP:DRV policy. — Mike • 04:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: This has also been listed on today's AfD page (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lost: The Journey (second nomination)). As far as I see, there has been no consensus to relist, so I've asked for it to be speedily closed pending the results of this DRV. BryanG^(talk) 04:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete - with all due respect to the closing admin, I reread ArgentiumOutlaw's point on AFD and I do not see what is convincing about it. He points out that the writer did a good job and that mediators are debating what to do with individual episode articles. Well, as to the first point, a "good job" is not a bar to deletion and as to the second point, unless I'm missing something, this is not an episode. For the benefit of those above debating my "merge and delete" vote (opinion, whatever), I didn't say "merge and delete". Please reread my comment. I said "Merge anything useful ... otherwise delete". In other words, "merge OR delete", not "merge AND delete". BigDT 04:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. I, too, fail to see what is so overwhelming about the sole keep vote, and part of the admin's comment -- I'd keep a clip show before a random episode, if I were commenting -- means that a peculiar personal preference was used as part of the reasoning. --Calton | Talk 05:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, solid explanation from closing admin plus the fact that articles of this nature (major television episodes) are generally kept or merged. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist or delete. Only one keep vote, and its reasoning is extremely weak ("this is a well-written article" does not make the topic noteworthy, and "we're still discussing it" does not make it noteworthy either!); yes, admins are expected to use their judgment, not a raw votecount, to determine consensus, but this was a dubious closure.
• I'd have preferred if Lar had voted, rather than closing the discussion, since he clearly had a distinct opinion in his own right which, even if valid, didn't correspond to that of any of the users involved. Too often admins will close Deletion discussions in accordance with however they would have voted, rather than in accordance with the discussion itself. If your interpretation of what should be done with the article is unusual enough that people will be surprised by how you close the discussion, you'd probably be better off joining the discussion, so people can read and respond to your reasoning first, rather than just cutting it off with your opinion as the "last word". -Silence 05:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment There were two points I was making when I voted to Keep. The second point I made was that the article shouldnt have been up for deletion, if you see Requests for mediation, you'll see that there is a mediation committee voting to determine whether or not "Lost episodes each deserve an individual article". If they decide on keeping all episodes in one big article, then the committee will override any AFD decisions made on that one article. Same with the opposite case (ie if they decide every episode deserves a seperate article). Their decision may actually make any decision we reach here useless. Ignoring that, the first reason I gave for keeping, was that I thought the information there was thorough, accurate, and useful. As for the final outcome of keep on the AFD, I personally think we should put aside our "common sense" and go with the majority vote, 'but' through all of my experiences with AFDs and the like, I've realized that in wikipedia votes don't really matter, discussion and consensus determines the victor. I wouldn't dare say that my argument is more sensible than the opposing side because they made an equally legitimate point. So it's really a judgment call on which side brought up the more solid argument. ArgentiumOutlaw 06:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • In the absence of a mediation ruling, you can still preserve the solo article in your user space. In either outcome, you would need to have the information at hand. However, no one part of the deliberative process can overturn another, as they should have different targets. The mediation is about whether in the future/final form, there should be a single or breakout presentation and shouldn't be concerned with "should this particular article be deleted." AfD shouldn't be saying anything much about whether the future should look like X or Y, but rather judging a single article in terms of the deletion policy. I.e. during a mediation, pretty much everything should have gone into a sort of escrow space. Geogre 12:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Delete. Closing comments an absolutely travesty. "We don't nose count" so I'm siding with a minority of one". Ridiculous. -- GWO
• Overturn and Delete - Should have taken part in the discussion rather than just closed with his own saintly admin view. - Hahnchen 09:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. Everyone knows I don't nose-count either, but there was a clear consensus for deletion. It is not the case that the 'merge and delete' and 'transwiki' opinions could count as 'keep'. "Transwiki" means "This shouldn't be on Wikipedia" and "Merge and delete" means "Some of this might belong in the main article but not here", and both amount to "This Wikipedia article should not exist". The sole keep argument wasn't remotely close to being powerful enough to overturn the near-unanimous consensus. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 09:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete as supported by all credible arguments to policy & guidelines in the AfD; transwiki to Lostpedia if GFDL compatibility allows and if they want it. Just zis Guy you know? 12:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Delete Reliance on single keep argument unconvincing Bwithh 12:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Delete I voted to transwiki in the original AfD thinking that it was possible to transwiki to Lostpedia. Apparantly it is not, so you can count my vote as a delete in the original AfD. —Mets501 (talk) 12:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn: Lar was acting within his scope, but my feeling is that the article was weak enough or damaged enough that, at the very least, the article could not exist in that form and at that location and pass peer review in terms of the deletion policy. Sometimes we have to say, "Wikipedians are wrong, but we'll do the delete and work on getting the information presented in a better or more logical way." This would be one of those cases: people voting on AfD could be entirely wrong, but, in the absence of something really crazy, their wrong position should probably prevail. Geogre 12:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Clarification: my vote was the overturn and delete after the article is copied into user space pending the outcome of the mediation. I.e. delete, because AfD was clear, but I recommend that the authors and involved parties hold the material. We had a not dissimilar situation with articles on every cricket match in a year. Geogre 16:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. The closure statement makes clear that, rather than acting within discretion on the merits of the debate, the admin was effectively imposing his own views on it instead. Should have participated in it, in that case. Furthermore, the arguments to delete are easily as compelling as the argument given to keep, and though we don't nose count, we do pay attention to the reasons why a number of people may have reached the same conclusion. I should also say that I don't think a wriggle of "no consensus" applies here. There's an obvious enough consensus among the participants, it's just that the admin didn't like it too much. If Lar wanted to spin the debate his way, he should probably simply have declared a straight "keep". I just discovered from User talk:Lar that Lar discussed this with others in IRC. That's fine, but one should remember that being trendy and brutal and treating AfD as a stupid bunch of idiots is extremely fashionable there, and that decisions made based on who goes "yay" to earn a laugh on IRC are generally decisions made poorly and in haste. -Splash - tk 12:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete, as per Mike and others above. It seems that a consensus in favor of deletion was ingnored. PJM 13:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist on AfD, AfD isn't a straw count and no good reason was advanced for deletion. IMO, closing admin probably did the right thing. Still, retention/deletion could be argued either way... recommend a fresh AfD.--Isotope23 15:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete; I agree with Lar that 1 suggestion can override seven other ones. However, I do not find this particular one convincing at all. - Liberatore(T) 15:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Notice: The article has now substantially been re-written to address the issues it previously had, excising the Original Research, and adding verifiable, sourced content. It is no longer the same article that was AfDed.--Leflyman^Talk 17:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Second War (Harry Potter)

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Second War (Harry Potter)

User:CambridgeBayWeather deleted article Second War (Harry Potter) on the grounds of not going against consensus. I read the arguments and the most prominent one was that the imformation can be found on other characters' biographic articles. While that is true, a through article on the history of the First and Second War of the Potter series is appropriate, if not essential, since the overlying plot of the series deals with Voldemort against the rest of the Wizarding world. In books five and six in particular, where the Second War begins and continues, two battles occur that will have continued ramifications to the last book to be released next year. A record of this entire episode I think would be appropriate to cite all further development to come and expand once the series is complete. User:Throw

• Having read all the Potter books multiple times, I recall no reference to a "second war". Perhaps you could cite the page numbers where it is referred to as such? Just zis Guy you know? 12:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Last chapter of OOTP is titled "The Second War Begins". Regards, MartinRe 12:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Oh, wow, so we have a whole article based essentially on a throwaway line? None of the characters refer to the "war", "first war" or "second war" do they? Just zis Guy you know? 12:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. Nothing out of process here. It was deleted through AfD on the 9th, then reposted and deleted on the 13th. To see what the 1st War and 2nd War articles look like, see User:Fbv65edel/Keep!. Metros232 12:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. (after edit conflict) Looks like a valid AfD with reasonable arguments and very strong consensus. CambridgeBayWeather deleted it as recreation of a deleted article. -- SCZenz 12:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion valid afd, hence valid g4 Regards, MartinRe 12:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion, per above. PJM
• Endorse deletion, absolutely lawful deletion. MaxSem 15:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion Valid afd. OhNoitsJamie^Talk 18:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion per all. Disclosure: I am the AfD nominator. Note to Throw: this stuff will all be moved to Wikibooks by User:Fbv65edel. Work on it there instead. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 20:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. User:Throw copied and pasted everything on User:Fbv65edel/Keep! and pasted it to his/her own user page. Is that okay or not under the GFDL? It doesn't preserve the history and contributions since he did it in one fell swoop. The same goes for Fbv65edel's subpage which seems to be just copied and pasted too. Metros232 03:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That violates GFDL. I've left a note on User talk:Fbv65edel that if they want the content for private use in preparing other content I or another admin will fish it out for them; meanwhile I'm afraid I call that a copyvio. Just zis Guy you know? 15:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

13 June 2006

User:Dtm142/User no evil boxes and Template:User Gangster

These were both deleted out of process by Drini. They were taken to tfd, but had a keep consensus and were closed. He claims to have deleted it because he followed the official policy, but it doesn't meet the Deletion policy. See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 June 4 and Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 June 5. No evil boxes was also closed because of defective listing. See this edit. They do not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, and the debates both resulted in a keep. Dtm142 22:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

as my comments were requested. I did quote policy and followed it. -- Drini 19:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Further explanation. There are some policies that are more fundamental than others (recall the five pillars) ? I followed them and thus I stand that I didn't act out of policy. If the lower policies are in contradiction with the fundamental ones, the fundamental ones take precedence.-- Drini 20:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

To which fundamental policy do you refer? Be specific, please; I'm not a mind reader, and could not locate where you quoted policy in the deletion for the second (the deletion log just says "tfd"). Jay Maynard 22:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 June 4. He quoted the policies there. Reguardless, it was out of process. Dtm142 22:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

We're trying to end this userbox war with a community compromise, not have you look for reasons to delete stuff. If it doesn't meet the speedy deletion criteria or deletion policy, it doesn't get deleted. Dtm142 22:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete on the first and put the 2nd one up for user space adoption by someone who was linking to it. Here we go again. Guess I was a fool to hope that WP:GUS would calm the deletionists down. --StuffOfInterest 22:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and MfD the first because it had two parallel reviews going on on separate MfD dates. The closing admin for the June 5 version (Xoloz) attempted to close both as an unsalvagable mess, but somehow that closure became disassociated with the June 4 review. The June 5 closure contained an explicit note that keep was the likely result of a clean nomination and review. Having two simultateous reviews with opposite conclusions is reason enough to send it back for a single combined review, having two closures with opposite conclusions for a single review is also enough to send it back, and we have both here.. Overturn, undelete, and leave alone for the second, because it has survived two separate TfD reviews in the past month. (See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 May 24 for the first TfD discussion, which was referenced in the second.) GRBerry 22:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Endorse for the second, when I tried to multi-task I got it wrong. The closers rationale isn't enough reason to prevent WP:GUS, but the argument by Nhprman was a better argument for deletion than any of the keep arguments (as the prior TfD closed with no consensus rather than a clear keep consensus). GRBerry 23:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete. Weren't we just here? Why are admins trying to torpedo the German userbox solution?? Jay Maynard 22:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • ...and, yes, I'll support move User Gangster to userspace, per WP:GUS. Jay Maynard 00:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete both, move User Gangster to userspace per WP:GUS. We try to navigate out of the userbox mess and to find a compromise (following Jimbo's suggestion) when suddendly some admins start torpedoing the entire effort. CharonX/talk 23:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete follow the German solution (supported by Jimbo as compromise). No reason for the deletion as they don't meet T1. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 00:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• undelete both of these please find a better compramise Yuckfoo 01:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete both and move the second to user space, per WP:GUS —Mira 02:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• The former was already in userspace. Dtm142 02:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, I know. I said move the second one to user space. —Mira 02:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep deleted No evil. T1/G4 (Tony Sidaway). Kotepho 02:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  G4 does not apply for recreating a deleted userbox in userspace. T1 does not apply in userspace. Dtm142 03:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  1) Yes, it does. Read the rfar. 2) Yes, it does. This is a logical extention of the rfar. (If something is inappropriate enough that if it was deleted in Template: it should not be recreated in User:, anything that would meet said criteria would still be inappropriate in User: even had it not been deleted in Template: previously.) Saying "no it doesn't" is not going to convince anyone and it does not make it true. Kotepho 03:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete and deal with per WP:GUS. Kotepho, I wouldn't argue that these boxes can't be speedied - they certainly can - but I would argue that they shouldn't be, if the goal is to end the userbox controversy with a minimum of collateral damage. -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  Changing my vote to relist on MfD for the first and endorse deletion for the second. I should have looked more carefully at first; what a crap box. Thanks Kimchi.sg, for caling attention to that. I'd vote to delete either on MfD or TfD, but only the first one deserves its week there. Refraining from speedying all but the most egregious boxes would be a great good-faith gesture on the part of userbox deletionists. The gangster box though, really has no redeeming value. -GTBacchus^(talk) 07:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Let me just say ... oh thank god I don't care about this shit anymore. It's sooooo much more relaxing. Ohh, you all should try it, I'm in heaven over here. --Cyde↔Weys 03:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Undelete both, and Userfy the second one per WP:GUS. jgp 04:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first, WP:GUS Relist (TfD) the second one, and Remove Drini's admin rights for a week or two while we implement WP:GUS. _{No offense meant, Drini.} —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 07:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem I'm used to people calling for admins desysopping for doing The Right Thing (TM) and following policy.

• Question. Does T1 apply in userspace or not? I'm seeing conflicting opinions on that issue. Anyone care to back theirs up with a link? Either way, T1 doesn't apply to the first one at all. —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 07:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  There are different 'interpretations'. T1 became policy without sitting through the normal proposal and consensus procedures because it was endorsed by Jimbo. Jimbo has repeatedly said that the 'problem' is that things in the template namespace might be considered to be 'supported' by Wikimedia, and thus userboxes stating a disputed viewpoint should be moved to user space. Since 'T1' became policy because Jimbo said it should I don't see how it can be 're-interpreted' to mean something directly contradictory to Jimbo's position and still retain it's validity as a policy. The alternate view is apparently that you cannot transclude disputed viewpoints... you can have them directly on your user page, but not transcluded in from a sub-page in user space or anywhere else. This is based on an interpretation of the word 'template' in T1 being meant to cover 'anything transcluded' rather than 'things in the Template: namespace' as Jimbo has advocated. But then, Jimbo also said, "don't go on any sprees deleting", and we've seen how well some people listened to that. --CBDunkerson 16:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete. MaxSem 06:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist the first on MfD and keep deleted and prohibit userspace creation of Template:Gangster. "This user is a gangster" is a statement which has strong intimidating overtones (unlike "This user is a homosexual" or even "This user hates the EFF") and I would protest even if one were to just write it on his user page in plain form. Template:Gangster goes beyond the acceptable bounds of good taste and should not be retained even in user space. Kimchi.sg 06:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  Which policy, aside from T1 or G4, does the second violate? If there's something besides those two, then I'll support deleting it. Jay Maynard 12:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete per above.  Grue  06:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy undelete first, germanize gangster and be done with it. Misza13 ^{T C} 08:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first. Keep the second deleted - the second one was in template space and was fair game for deletion. If someone wants to userfy it they should feel free to do so. There are admins who will assist. Metamagician3000 11:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first per WP:GUS, Endorse deletion the 2nd. Gangster template is simply unacceptable. --WinHunter ^(talk) 11:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first and Userify the second per WP:DEUTSCH. — CJewell (talk to me) 14:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - Deletions were out of process and contradictory to apparent consensus at TfD/MfD. Seemingly no applicable policy for deletion. --CBDunkerson 16:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and userfy if necessary. Nobody who has been paying attention here would have expected these speedies to go unchallenged - and thus they were improper speedy deletions. Please remember --Speedy Deletion is not a Toy 22:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

for the record, it wasn't a speedy deletion (if you look at that definition) it was just a normal deletion, where I applied fundamental policies to close a TFD. Can people stop callign this a speedy? Nowadays people just like to say it without stopping to consider that. For it to have been a speedy, I would have to delete on sight as I saw it withouth doing the whole TFD thing. 00:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It was an out of process deletion. They were already closed with a keep consensus and a defective listing before you closed them again and deleted them. Fundamental policies can be referenced during a tfd, but to determine the outcome, you look at what the community says and the deletion policies. I don't care if you delete it if it goes through an mfd with a delete consensus. Dtm142 01:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Any deletion which does not come as the result of an unchallenged 'prod' or consensus in a delete discussion is, by default, a 'speedy' delete... taken solely on the perogative of the admin performing the deletion without implied (per 'prod') or direct (per '*fD') consensus. As to your citation of the pillars - your action violates pillar four for certain (acting directly contrary to consensus is not 'cooperative') and is as much against pillar one (in that starting pointless fights over window dressing disrupts building the encyclopedia) as for it (in that the boxes in question did not build the encyclopedia). --CBD 10:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete 1st & Userify 2nd as mentioned a few times. --Scandalous 02:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and Userfy as per what Jimbo says is reasonable about the German solution. The idea that Drini could close so many TfD's with a generic closing message about the five pillars when really they were not for one, all relevant, and two, all followed by the action. Ansell 11:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

IRCDig

This article was deleted due to notability claims that were false. IRCDig is just as notable, if not more notable than most torrent search engine articles wikipedia decides to keep. The deletion discussion was split amongst keep and delete votes. The article followed all criteria for a valid article and then some. This article was incorrectly afd'd and should be re-instated. The supporters of deletion argued that the author was the only one that had contributed to the article but what they failed to realize was that the article was only like a week old. LOL... I discovered it when it was in it's afd discussion and contributed a keep vote and would have contributed to the article if I would have had time to see it. KernelPanic 17:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• AfD here. Whether the website is truly notable or not, this is a textbook proper close. Endorse closure unless notability can be accurately verified. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • And what is the official wikipedia process for verifying notability? You say it was a text book closure whether the site is notable or not then you say you endorse the closure until the notability can be accurately verified? Which one is it? If wikipedia is going to allow it's admins to delete articles due to notability then there needs to be a clear and concise process for verifying notability. Until this happens, it is completely open to personal interpretation, which is ALWAYS going to be a mistake due to personal biases. KernelPanic 19:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Not "until," "unless." I'll gladly petition to overturn the closure if you can provide some sort of evidence that this is a notable thing. The "admins" didn't delete this, as much as a consensus by a not-insignificant number of fellow editors felt deletion was the correct path, and no claim was made by you or the other editor stating keep to make any sort of notability evident. I'm one of the most inclusive editors on here, and I'm not even convinced that this program is worth an article at this stage. Seriously, prove me wrong and I change my view. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. Show us how it meets the standards of WP:WEB "the official wikipedia process for verifying notability" as you requested. This means independent news coverage and/or awards for the site. Lots of Google hits does not make something notable. My username gets 13,300 hits...am I notable? Metros232 19:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • In the same respect, using Alexa as a source of showing something as being not notable is not an accurate method either, which is what the afd argument was based on. There are numerous articles about ircdig and numerous other discussions on independant news groups, message boards, etc. You can use the very same google search you condemned to find these artcles. I agree that the amount of information that google has indexed on a particular thing does not make it notable, but I would say that over 3000 uniques a day from over 115 different countries does. Was this article really clutterinh up wikipedia so much, or offending other editors so much that it just had to be removed? wikipedia has become a joke. Now I know why so many people talk trash about it. It is full of a bunch of immature kids who like to try and use their so called "power" to dictate what articles say and what articles even exist. Keep it deleted if it makes you that happy. It is not even worth the argument anymore. The owner of ircdig told me that he only received like 2 or 3 hits a day from the article anyway. Maybe wikipedia is not that notable in the end. Maybe you should delete your entire site according to your own regulations. The only press I see about wikipedia is negative press (Criticism of Wikipedia). Does that make it notable? KernelPanic 19:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Lately all the press that George W. Bush gets is negative, is he still notable? :) And to think, I'm a Republican and yet I make that kinda statement. None of the Google hits I see are news articles. This is the closest [1]. There's also one that's a press release from IRCDig. The first one is not a reliable source and press releases don't count for notability.

The owner of ircdig told me that he only received like 2 or 3 hits a day from the article anyway. Maybe wikipedia is not that notable in the end.

Or could it be that no one's looking for the article because it's not notable? The amount of hits he gets on his site from our article matters so little to our consideration of whether or not to keep an article since we're not a source of advertisement for websites. Metros232 19:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. Relisting to generate more discussion would have been a viable alternative, but the two keep commentators both are new enough contributors and had weak enough points that ignoring their presence is a reasonable decision on the part of the closing admin. Nothing in the AfD or the discussion above asserts that the article met WP:WEB, the topic specific notability guideline. The bit about "only received like 2 or 3 hits a day from the article" indicates that the article was viewed as an advertisement. Advertisements are a direct violation of Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a section of one of the basic policies. As to the other torrent sites, if they are truly not worthy of being kept, their articles will go to eventually. No hurry, but consistency is not required, and taking our time has benefits. GRBerry 20:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse Closure Properly closed, did not assert notability. -M^ask 20:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. No evidence of notability, and the fact of an article not being advertising is not sufficient grounds to keep it when there is clearly not enough reliable external coverage to ensure neutrality. Just zis Guy you know? 20:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. Nothing was previously said that made it convincing that the site has any notabilility at all, and nothing has yet been added. The AfD's closure was within normal procedure. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 00:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse close, as there is no significant new information to overturn previous consensus at the AFD. Titoxd^(?!?) 00:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Mending Wall

This discussion was finished rather buptly mid-debate. The problem is that many are misunderstanding the copyright law, confused by a badly worded WP policy. There is a differnece between the copyright on an imprint and the copyright on he content. This poem (which is substantially quoted from) remains within copyright until 70 years after teh death of teh author - it is only a particular imprint of it that can go out of copyright before that. The poem's inculsion on Wikisource and the large quote on WP break copyright. If the WP policy is wrong/badly worded it needs to be changed. WP and WS are currently breaking copyright - and I suspect on several other copyright pieces too. Robertsteadman 16:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I did close the debate a few hours early on three grounds: 1.) There was a consensus to keep, unlikely to change; 2.) the poem is extraordinarily well-known in the US, and is regularly taught in high-school English classes across the country (how do I know? Why, I come from a loooong line of English teachers from all across the country, really) 3.) As I explained to Mr. Steadman at his talk, his understanding of copyright law is incorrect (for which, see his talk page.)

If I wanted to, I could simply say that I ignored opinions known to be in error, and found the debate unanimous. Really, though, even taking Steadman's criticisms at their face-value, there was a consensus to keep -- the discussion to remove the poem's text is editorial, as it is already transwikied. Xoloz 16:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid that your assertion about copyright is incorrect. Copyright on artistic works, in Europe and the US, last for 70 years after teh death oif the authjor and the date of publication is irrelvant. To have such a substantial quote from the poem, at best, stretchs the law and, in my opinion, is a breach of copyright. Certainly the wikisource full use is illegal. I'd love to see a citation for the "extremely well known"-nbess of the poem. One phrase may be well known - in which case the article should be about the phrase not the poem. The only reason the debate wasn't going to change is becaiuse (a) it wasn't given the chance to and (b) false informnation about the notability of the poem and the copyright situaton swayed people. A very sad state of affairs when WP admins are allowing WP to break the law. Robertsteadman 17:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Mr Steadman, you correctly state US law as it applies today to items published today. Historically, prior to a series of treaties throughout the 1980's, the US law did not give a whit for the author's lifetime. All of this is recounted in full detail at the US Copyright Law article. The newer laws now in force do not apply to Mending Wall, because by the time of their active date, its copyright had already lapsed under the old law. It is unfortunate that you refuse to relent in falsing suggesting Wikipedia is a violating the law. Discerning the copyright of works published in the US between 1923 and 1978 is a confusing process, by reason of the changing law, and occupies an entire course in modern American law school curriculum. Prior to 1923, all published works in the US, by necessity of the operation of law in effect at the time, had their copyrights lapse prior to the enactment of current law. Since my word, and the sources at the WP article, do not convince you, I suggest you take this matter up with Foundation lawyer User:Brad Patrick. He will tell you what I have, in much better detail than I can (since intellectual property is not my area of daily practice): you are incorrect, and WP is within the law. I respect your right to disagree, however wrong you are; but please refrain from suggesting that Wikipedia is breaking the law, for its counsel is very bright, and it is well within the law. Xoloz 18:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

As for notability, the mere fact it is a Robert Frost poem justifies a stub's existence, but I can have references for you shortly.

• Endorse closure. Take to copyright problems if you really think it's a problem, I accept the evidence above that it is not. I am compelled to wonder once again if User:Robertsteadman and User:Robsteadman are related. Just zis Guy you know? 20:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. If it was in fact published in 1914, there is no problem. See, among other sources, UPenn's guide here. By the way, was I the only one who thought of this poem when senator Jeff Sessions said, with regard to plans to build five hundred or so miles of Berlin-Wall-like fencing,"Good fences make good neighbors, fences don't make bad neighbors?" Ignoring, of course, the point that there's a difference between a co-operative fence maintained jointly by two neighbors and a unilateral fence... Unless I'm missing something, Mexico isn't offering to pay for half of this border fence. But I digress. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. Even if User:Robertsteadman were correct in saying that the poem was still subject to copyright, we could just revert the article to a non-infringing version. And if the poem is in the public domain, we don't have a problem at all. --Metropolitan90 01:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment The ever-amazing BD2412, who does IP for a living, quickly cited this source, a current US government circular, which plainly lays that issue to rest. Praise BD! Xoloz 06:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse: AfD and DRV are not the proper venues for changing Wikipedia's general understanding of copyright. The poem is, of course, very well known and is, in fact, one of those poems that people who don't know poetry will have read (because they were forced to). Now, don't ask me how I loathe Robert Frost, but don't ask me to want the article deleted because one person thinks the whole project's vision of copyright should yield to his own. Geogre 12:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. If we're all wrong about the copyright status of this poem, and Project Gutenberg is too, I think the only recourse Mr. Steadman has is to Foundation legal counsel, as Xoloz suggests. Alleged non-notability is not a good reason to bring this article here; there were arguments made on both sides at the AfD, and there was no consensus to delete. I am very much hoping this is the last I see of this issue. -- SCZenz 12:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse - how on earth did anyone even consider deleting an article about what is by common knowledge one of the most famous modern poems in the English language? Metamagician3000 04:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Saryn Hooks

Article was AfD'd today, and deleted speedily per A7 after only three votes. Article certainly asserts notability, and frankly, I would have voted Keep.

Content was, more or less, "Saryn Hooks, of Taylorsville,North Carolina, placed third in the Scripps Howard National Spelling Bee. She was reinstated after the judges realized they had the incorrect spelling of hechsher. She is fourteen years old and hopes to become a doctor."

Recommend undeletion and relisting at AfD. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 15:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Abstain for the moment. Coming third in a spelling bee is certainly not an impressive claim of notability. The judges got her word wrong? Woop de do, I don't think that'll be up there with the Mano de Dios in the Top 100 Shocking Sporting Moments on Channel 4. However, I'm not quite prepared to say that this should be snowballed, hence the abstention. It wouldn't have killed anyone to let this run its course. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 15:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Couldn't this detail simply be merged into the article for the Scripps Howard National Spelling Bee as a bit of interesting trivia? --StuffOfInterest 15:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Because it's not very interesting? If it had affected the outcome of the game it would be important, but the girl went out anyway. Looking at the article, I don't see anywhere obvious to insert a mention, and it seems like a very inconsequential thing to start a new '==Trvia==' section with. But if you can do better than I, you don't have to wait for the article to be undeleted to edit the Scripps Howard National Spelling Bee article. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 15:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Technically, any subject could be merged into another article as a short blurb rather than a real article, but that doesn't really do us justice. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and complete AFD The reinstatement is also an assertion of notability. How often does a reinstatement occur? Without knowing this, which only an AFD discussion can address, we can't tell if there is notability. GRBerry 15:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Why go to lengths - participation and high placement themselves are assertions of notability! - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 15:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn, undelete, reopen AFD A claim of notability necessitates an AFD. --Rob 15:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist, certainly not an A7. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. It's not fair for me to vote since I deleted it, but I just wanted to say that this met speedy deletion criteria in my view. I am not opposed to letting the AFD run its course if that is the outcome of this review.--Kungfu Adam ^(talk) 15:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist per nom. BoojiBoy 18:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist per nominator. Silensor 19:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Reviewing the articles on some of the winners of this competition, they would be far better combined a single article (and this one with them). Unless and until they achieve some lasting notability, an article which says that X attended foo school, won a spelling bee one year, and since then has not been mentioned in any reliable sources, would be a clear and unambiguous delete for any adult. I can't believe we're even considering keeping an article on someone whose sole claim to fame is that they came third. Come on, people! The reliable sources contain maybe two facts: the competition and the school. Just zis Guy you know? 20:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • So, would you delete athletes who are "only" third-best in the country, as well? Or do you have separate standards for mental competitions versus physical ones? --Rob 19:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
    • If they are only the third best according to the results of a single competition, yes. Think about this logically for a moment: how much verifiable biographical data is there for these people outside of the single fact of their having taken part in a single competition? I have nothing against a brief note in the article on the competition, that makes good sense, but what you appear to be arguing for here is an article whiech will, most likely in perpetuity, say that this person came third ina competition once. You think that's enough to base a biography on? You think that establishes encyclopaedic notability? This is well below the level of attention given to losing candidates in elections, who by common consent do not get articles unless they are independently notable. I'd say the same applies: if these people have some independent and objective claim to notability per WP:BIO then by all means give them articles, but otherwise list them in a single article and if you think its likely anyone but their mother will search for them by name then add a redirect. Just zis Guy you know? 12:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I'm glad we agree on using logic and WP:BIO, which states "The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person". So, clearly she either meets that standard, or is at least close enough, to warrant a proper AFD discussion. I'm glad you do apply the same standard to athletes, but since you appear opposed to existing WP:BIO rules for athletes, you should really take that up on the talk page of WP:BIO. You're applying rules on biographies that aren't mentioned in WP:BIO. As for elections: we we include all members of the federal and state legislatures. That's thousands of people for some countries. That includes third-party back-benchers in legislatures/parliaments with a majority government. Look at music: you just have to have a charted hit. It doesn't have to be #1. So, generally we go well, well beyond "top 3" in most areas. --Rob 16:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted as per Just zis Guy above. Arguments that a third place contestant in a spelling bee deserves their own article are totally beyond me Bwithh 22:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Just want to make sure you two brits realize that the Scripps-Howard Spelling Bee is a nationally-covered event, televised live nationwide by ESPN, the premier sports channel in the United States. It gets front page treatment in the press every year, it's a big deal - not just a bee at a school. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 23:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this Brit has been living in the US since 2001. Bwithh 01:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• • • Actually, it even went one step further this year and was broadcast in primetime on ABC. Metros232 23:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • it was also simulcast in hdtv on 2 different networks so erasing this makes no sense at all. Yuckfoo 01:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• undelete this please a mistake was made here so fix it Yuckfoo 01:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, per JZG & Bwithh. Despite popular opinion, I don't see how finishing 3rd in this event is notable. It didn't even strike me as a proper assertion of notability. PJM 02:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• This one is difficult. The result of any AfD debate should be really, really, really obvious: merge the article and create a redirect to the spelling bee. Yes, the young lady was in the news because of the scandal of the judges getting it wrong and a competitor correcting them (and thus reinstating the girl). Further, she was being followed around by cameras and is very photogenic. If this were AfD, I'd say "Merge and redirect": she hasn't been alive long enough to have a biography or done anything, yet. That said, this isn't AfD, so I suppose I have to put my faith in the demos and say...I hate doing this...overturn and finish the AfD. Geogre 12:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Deleted per JzG. Eusebeus 15:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist. I don't think the subject is notable, and I think the article should be deleted, but it should be deleted through the proper AfD process. There is an assertion of notability, so a speedy is inappropriate. jgp (T|C) 15:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist While I would probably vote delete on the afd, technically it should be relisted since there is at least a debatable claim to notability. OhNoitsJamie^Talk 18:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion per JzG. However, I'd support history undeletion if if the content of this article is merged into the article about the competition and then turned into a redirect. - Liberatore(T) 15:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Reopen AfD I'm not sure of the actual bio, but I have to question the speedy. Yanksox ^(talk) 16:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

12 June 2006

User:Winhunter/Userboxes/EFF and User:Winhunter/Userboxes/No-CCP

This user is opposed to online censorship.

This user opposes the Chinese Communist Party.

Both userboxes are in the userspace according to the German Userbox solution, but an admin deleted both of them, saying "T1 deletion as per CSD and Tony Sidaway arbcom case." in the deletion log. I do not believe speedy deletion would apply on userboxes in userspace in these two uesrboxes, especially when there are consensus on German Userbox Solution. --WinHunter^(talk) 02:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete and list at MfD - I think these userboxes must necessarily be deleted at MfD, but I think that, in this case, it's worth it to go back and list them there. Other opponents of userboxes, please consider my reasons. (I'm the same one who's argued passionately against not digging up the dead to rebury them.) We have a choice right now: we may start another userbox brouhaha, or not. Let's choose not to. Let's be smart about it this time, and do what Jimbo actually suggested. Once the boxes are in userspace, let's use reason and dialogue to explain why they're a bad idea. Let's do that by taking them to MfD for deletion instead of speedying them, and creating the conditions for much more congenial discussion, where explanation and development of reasons can actually go on in more cooperative spirit. Let's not ruffle feathers with speedy deletions, and then try to have that same conversation at DRV, where it's much more difficult on account of people being upset, and the constant drive to not talk about the content being deleted, but the validity of the deletion instead. This is a crappy place for the conversation to happen. We're not required to speedy polemical pages in user-space. We are free to apply the "if it walks like a template" criterion, or not. Please consider that we can do this encyclopedia a greater service by being a little more slow and deliberate about dealing with the userbox problem. -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and list at MfD - I dislike these 2 boxes but am convinced by GTBacchus' points. Kimchi.sg 03:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn, undelete, and send to MfD Case 1: EFF box. It is anything but obvious that this is inflammatory. It is anything but obvious that this is divisive. Heck, Wikipedia, by policy, is not censored. If there is anyplace that this should not be divisive, it is Wikipedia. This one looks like a clearly erroneous speedy deletion, and possibly should just be overturned without sending it to MfD, as I think a keep outcome is the appropriate MfD result. Case 2: Opposes CCP box. Better addressed on MfD than via a speedy deletion, as per GTBachus' argument above. The inflammatory case is debatable, given that the CCP already attempts to ban the citizens of mainland China from seeing Wikipedia, and that those who circumvent the firewall are unlikely to be the CCP's strongest supporters. GRBerry 03:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• I do not believe endless TFDs, MFDs, and DRVs are the correct way to resolve this issue. I think it's time to try the final step in dispute resolution. --Cyde↔Weys 03:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Which is...? If it's "take it to someone who can set binding policy", I agree with you. Jay Maynard 12:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• ArbCom is the final step of dispute resolution. --Cyde↔Weys 19:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep deleted These fall under T1. T1 applies to userspace templates still. Would it be better to delete these through TFD or MFD? I believe so, but they have shown that they do not produce correct results w.r.t. to policy. Process is only important if it works. Kotepho 03:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is not democracy. Why are MfDs closed against policy just because the numbers say so? -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I don't know. Why are Gay Nigger Association of America and The Game (game) still around? Their sources are certainly scant.

  I do want to echo your request that userboxes in User: should be taken to *FD instead of speedied in most cases, but the debates need to be closed on their merits instead of numbers. That is not to say that all templates in user space should be taken to *FD--as many are fine in user space--but there are still templates that are so odious that they must be deleted from user space also. I believe that "user against $POLITICAL_PARTY" falls under such a condition, even if I happen to agree with that position. The EFF box is a bit different--enough that it probably should be discussed seperately. "This user supports the EFF" is something that I believe is inappropriate, but not so much that it needs to be deleted immediately. In its current form I believe that T1 is applicable. Kotepho 04:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  It is in userspace, what do you think about this? Jimbo on Userboxes --WinHunter ^(talk) 04:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  The problem with userboxes is that people really really ought not to be using their user pages to advocate for or against green energy or anyone else. - Jimbo Wales I like it a lot. I would add this bit though. I am not doing anything about it just yet, but I am willing to concede that my nonviolent social request that people knock it off and think about what it means to be a Wikipedian has not gotten very far.[2] On "it is in userspace": I have no idea what you are replying to, as no one disputes that. Kotepho 05:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I am reasonably certain that Winhunter was referring to this quote: [3] (too long to copy). It is, after all, the one he linked to. —Mira 08:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  This one [4] too, actually. —Mira 08:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  There would still be restrictions on the range of possible userboxes... from the first diff, and I already quoted from the second diff? The middle ground is to let people do as they will in the user space, and merely use reason and argument to teach people over time why one ought not use Wikipedia userpages for political or other campaigns.... while at the same time saying, no, really, the template namespace is not for that, that we do not endorse this behavior. This is the solution that the Germans have put into effect with great results. Personally, I'm not a big fan of people using their user pages (or editing the encyclopedia) to advocate their points of view (and Jimbo agrees). How are these boxes anything other than that? Notice how Jimbo doesn't say "Oh I think that is fine", he says "this might work for now, but try and talk some sense into them". Talking hasn't worked; and most of these comment are from months ago. On the issue of substed versus transcluded in userspace, it is not a distinction without a difference. Kotepho 09:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I haven't seen talking given much of a chance to work. I've seen people try to bypass talking, by just deleting a bunch of boxes repeatedly, and creating conditions for people to feel they're being attacked. -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete and relist at MFD agree with GTBacchus. The speedy deletion of userboxes has been far more divisive than any userbox could ever be. —Mira 05:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and undelete Nothing wrong with either these userboxes or WP:GUS. jgp 07:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete User space is sacred territory!  Grue  07:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep both deleted. First one is merely unnecessary, second is a childish attempt to piss off the editors you're supposed to be writing an encyclopaedia with. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Question. How is the second one going to piss anyone off? Wikipedia is banned where anyone would actually support the Chinese communist party, because of the chinese communist party. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 17:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Userspace is not sacred, and must follow policy like anywhere else. --Improv 08:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - Userspace is absolutely fine for userboxes. I don't use them, but I had asked Tony Sidaway about them at User_talk:Tony_Sidaway#Random_Userbox_question. He seemed to think they were OK in the userspace, and I disagree that a T1 CSD criterion can apply to the userspace. Because if we can apply other CSD criterion to the user space, then we should delete a crapload of nn-bios and nonsense right now. - Hahnchen 08:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • If it looks like a duck, and transcludes like a duck, and quacks "Hey you! Your government and your political opinions are evil! By the way, would you like to write an encyclopaedia with me?" like a duck, it's probably a duck and therefore subject to criterion for speedy roasting T1. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Why are these boxes being treated differently to anything else on the user page? Are we no longer allowed to write down out beliefs on our userpage? If I write on my userpage "Evolution is fact", it's OK? But if I put it into a box, it's crossing some kind of line? If so, I seriously suggest we start at User:SPUI and work on from there. - Hahnchen 09:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I have no problems with people wrting down their beliefs on their userpage within reason, I do have a problem with encouraging others to write down the same beliefs by handing out bumper stickers. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 11:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  If you know of any recreated deleted articles being used in userspace as they would be in article space (i.e. inside article categories and/or linked from article space) please remove such links/cats, tag it g4, or bring it to mfd. Kotepho 09:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Naturally, categorisation or crosslinking from the mainspace to the userspace should not be allowed. I myself have made this error when working on new articles in my userspace. However, the relevance to this conversation seems very little. Many times I have seen 'Userfy' used in deletion discussions, so recreations in the userspace aren't entirely g4 material. - Hahnchen 09:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Of course it does not apply to all templates, but ones that are divisive and inflammatory are fair game even in user space. Examples of such happening would be User Anti-UN and User Anti-ACLU. How is No-CCP significantly different? Kotepho 10:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete. POV userboxes but in userspace, which is what the German solution calls for. We have generally granted wide latitude in that area, including clear biases. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete. The whole idea of WP:TGS is to take forward Jimbo's endorsement of how userboxes are handled on the German Wikipedia. He has said that POV should be allowed in user space far beyond what is allowed in template space. Also, I'm strongly against extending T1 to user space. Show me the policy discussion covering that interpretation, please. --StuffOfInterest 10:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete. If I may quote Jimbo's suggestion regarding the failed UPP proposal: "The text of WP:UPP is filled with what one can and cannot say, specifically, All userbox templates that show a POV or are not directly related to wikipedia will be deleted after a period of time. Note that a user subpage that is transcluded without substitution by multiple users is considered a 'template'. This is like saying, "You may have pamphlets, but you may not mechanically print and distribute them. This is not an infringement of free speech". To put it kindly, this is counter-intuitive." CharonX/talk 11:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - The stated reason that a user-page comment to the effect of, 'I hate people with mauve skin' inside a rectangle has not been allowed while 'I hate people with mauve skin' outside a rectangle has been allowed was that the 'rectangle version' has traditionally been coming from 'Template space' and might therefor theoretically be taken to imply that Wikimedia encourages or tolerates the hating of people with mauve skin... while the 'not in a rectangle version' has traditionally been coming from 'User space' wherein it is more clearly the statement of the individual user(s). Ergo, if a disputed viewpoint resides entirely in user space it does not fall under the stated reason for removal of such from template space... whether it is enclosed in a rectangle or not. Does that make the hating of mauve people a good thing which we should encourage? Of course not, but to date we haven't taken the position that we can (or should) police the content of all userpages to remove any disputed viewpoints. If someone writes on their user page, 'I am gay and have been married to my partner for three years now' we do not remove it on the grounds that 'gay marriage is divisive' yet now some are saying that we should. If people really want to broaden this to a discussion of sanitizing the user space (not just template space) of all disputed beliefs then they need to make a case for that... but until then there are no grounds to do so for bits and pieces of user space - whether they are enclosed in rectangles or not. There have been decisions against the use of the template namespace for disputed viewpoints... not the use of rectangles. --CBDunkerson 11:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  No one is saying that you cannot use rectangles; they are saying you cannot use templates. The definition of a template is not "stuff in Template:". See also Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Tony Sidaway. Kotepho 11:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  See the quote from Jimbo that CharonX included above...he seems to disagree specifically with your argument. Jay Maynard 12:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I disagree. You are apparently defining 'template' as 'anything which is transcluded'. That is not stated in the arbcom case you cite and is not consistent with Jimbo's statements about why T1 was created and what kinds of transclusion are acceptable:

  "Suppose we omit the bit about [disallowing] user subpages transcluded without substitution? If we do that, then a certain amount of userboxing can go on no problem, but outside the officially sanctioned spaces. This respects our long tradition of allowing wide latitude on userspace stuff, while at the same time keeping these userboxes out of officially sanctioned areas which would suggest to new users that this is an official thing that one ought to be doing. There would still be restrictions on the range of possible userboxes, of course, but this is not different from the restriction on all manner of things people might put on their userpages already."

  The T1 criteria was created to address Jimbo's concerns (and those of others) about templates (by which I mean 'things in the template namespace') possibly giving the impression that a view was supported by Wikimedia. Above Jimbo makes a clear distinction that transcluded pages from the template and other 'official' namespaces need to be kept free of divisive statements, but transcluded user pages should be treated like any other user page content - where we have long allowed much wider lattitude since they do not reflect on Wikimedia. --CBDunkerson 12:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  What is not clear about "...or a userfied copy of a deleted template that is used on pages other than those of its owner..." (Principle 2)? Is this not a userfied copy of a deleted template that is used on pages other than those of its owner? Deleted, check; userfied, check; used on pages other than those of it's owner, check.

  Also--amazingly enough--everything Jimbo says on a random talk page is not ex cathedra; there is a difference between Jimbo's opinion and Jimbo's decrees. Kotepho 12:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Lots of stuff Jimbo has said on random talk pages is being taken ex cathedra. If the statements that he's made that the anti-userbox faction likes count, so do the statements the anti-userbox faction doesn't like. Jay Maynard 12:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Are you saying that users are responsible for transclusions by others of their subpages? --SPUI (T - C) 15:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  While I don't think you were being serious, it only took about a minute to make a subpage only transclude properly for me. If the template isn't horrible you could always subst the others or duplicate copies for everyone instead of deleting it. Kotepho 10:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  When we reach the point that the T1 CSD is re-written to directly contradict the person who is directly responsible for its existence there is a problem. T1 was implemented spontaneously, without any normal approval process, to fill a need specified by Jimbo. Re-interpreting T1 to directly contradict Jimbo's position on this issue would invalidate it's entire basis for existence. As to the ArbCom principle you cite (I was looking for a definition of 'template' consistent with yours)... it deals with attempts to circumvent deletion of unacceptable content by relocating it. It does not address the different standards between what is acceptable in the template namespace and what is acceptable in the user namespace. If something was deleted because it is unacceptable anywhere on Wikipedia then moving it to the user space is no improvement, but if something was deleted because it was unacceptable in the template namespace (the meaning of T1 actually espoused by the person responsible for its existence), but would be acceptable in the user space, then I don't see a problem with its recreation. Just as the 'non notable bio' CSD applies to 'article' space, but not to 'user' space so to with the T1 CSD in template vs user space. The entire basis of T1's existence, possible implication of Wikimedia support, simply does not apply to the user space. --CBDunkerson 17:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  The arbitration case dealt with such templates as User Anti-UN, how is User No-CCP different? The case held that G4 did extend to such templates (in userspace) and by a little logical extention it is easy to see that T1 still applies to userspace. If someone creates Category:George Bush is a dick can we not speedy it? "But A6 has an A in front of it, it only applies to articles!" Nonsense. Divisive and inflammatory templates (in all namespaces) are fair game. Kotepho 02:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  So... by extension of the interpretation T1 means the opposite of what Jimbo says it means? Heh. :] If these boxes had been created in user space in the first place the 'recreation' ArbCom principle you cite would not apply to them, correct? So they couldn't be 'G4' in that case... and they couldn't be T1 because they aren't in the template namespace and thus don't 'imply Wikimedia endorsement'... and they don't violate general standards for user page content. Yet you argue that since they were created in Template space first, as was the accepted practice at the time, they can no longer exist in user space... even though they could have if they hadn't been (correctly) placed in template space originally before the change in standards. This makes sense? If someone creates completely new userboxes which express similar sentiments that 'recreation' principle does not apply to them, but we've got to do 'interpretation gymnastics' to come up with some technicality where these two can't because they got caught up in the transition from 'all userboxes go in 'Template:User <whatever>' to 'disputed views cannot be in template space'? Why? Wikipedia is not a battleground. We're supposed to be building an encyclopedia... not searching for a hyper-technicality to help extend a fight over trivialities. --CBDunkerson 11:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  I normally don't respond to strawmen, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just restate my argument. T1 comes into being. Jimbo doesn't say "We should have this so we can get rid of these as they are seen as an official endorsement"--he doesn't say anything. Trying to apply whatever Jimbo has said in various places to the meaning of T1 is well, meaningless. There have been cases where user subpages used as templates have been deleted under T1, and these have held up by ArbCom. If something is deleted because it is inappropriate and recreated and then used in the same way as the deleted item, it may be considered G4. That is what the rfar said. By logical extension and "common sense" it is easy to see that "Bananas are bad in template space" and "Bananas recreated in user space are still bad, so we must delete them" leads to "Bananas in user space are deletable, even if it never was deleted in template space". If you have say Template:User Hates France and User:Bob/User Hates Germany, and User Hates France is deleted from template space and then from user space, it is easy to see that User:Bob/User Hates Germany should also be deleted--even though it never existed in template space. You claim that I am looking for technicalities and I guess "wikilawyering", but I would say you are. It is a simple question, that no one has even tried to answer, how is User No-CCP substainially different than User Anti-UN or various other user space templates that have been deleted (and kept deleted) before? The only response thus far has been "well, wikipedia is blocked in china, so the people that would be upset won't know!". That is so vacuous that it does not merit a reply. Oh, I can play the Jimbo sez game too "However, the issue with userboxes is that they are templates, and as such, they are categorized and easy to replicate and easy to use for campaigning and so on, and so they turn individual advocacy behavior, which is bad enough, into group campaigns." is all still true of userfied templates. Kotepho 23:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  I think I see the problem. Your third sentence is incorrect. Jimbo did say that we needed to get these things out of template space / avoid the appearance of Wikimedia support for them. Indeed, he has done so repeatedly... for instance immediately after the point at which you cut off the quotation above. It continues, "The pages which list userboxes, in the template namespace, make it seem as though putting these things on userpages is a normal and accepted community behavior, when in fact it is not. There is a middle ground, I agree. The middle ground is to let people do as they will in the user space...". I believe you are also incorrect when you say that Jimbo's position is "meaningless" in relation to T1. T1 exists because of Jimbo. It is there for no other reason. It was created and kept strictly on his say so. Therefor you can't make it mean something different than he says or there just isn't any basis for its continued existence. It was never discussed and adopted through formal consensus. It was installed at Jimbo's discretion to get 'disputed/divisive statements' out of the template namespace. Using a policy which exists on Jimbo's say so to contradict Jimbo is meritless. Can't be done. You want to cleanse the user space of people saying things like, 'I am gay and have been married to my partner for 3 years now' or, for some inexplicable reason, just cases where they transclude such statements from a user sub-page, then you need to propose and get consensus on a policy to do so. T1 was created to protect Wikimedia from the appearance of supporting various potentially contentious positions/causes by removing such from the template namespace. Nothing more. We would prefer that users not put such issues on their user pages (as Jimbo goes on to say), but we do not prevent them from doing so. Even at the height of the explosion with (arguably) the most contentious issue, the 'pedophile userbox wheel war'... which directly spawned T1, users were allowed to keep statements indicating that they were pedophiles in user space (and continue to do so to this day). Just not in template space. You try to 'extend' an ArbCom principle about re-creations to make T1 apply to user space, but it just inherently doesn't. It is not transclusion (or rectanglization) which makes these divisive views deletable... it is their existence in the 'seemingly official' template namespace rather than as concepts endorsed solely by users in the user space. --CBD 11:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Jimbo has said that they should not be in Template:, yes. However, that is not what I said at all. He did not say "Here is T1. Divisive and inflammatory templates are bad because it looks like an official endorsement.". T1 exists because Jimbo has decreed that divisive and inflammatory things are bad, he did not qualify why. Jimbo has not endorsed the German solution as everyone seems to say. He has simply stated "here is what de. did". Thus, citing T1 cannot contradict Jimbo's wishes (or if it does, he has not expressly stated them). If Jimbo wants to say that T1 does not apply to userspace or that he supports moving userboxes to userspace in an official capacity I'm sure he can figure out how to tell us. Again I say "there is a difference between Jimbo's opinion and his decrees". It is funny how you keep harping on "T1 in userspace" though, as the debate about these particular templates is obviously in line with the definition of G4 previously used and therefore does not need to apply in this case anyways (at least for the EFF one, I cannot find a Template: version of No-CCP but that doesn't mean it didn't exist). Kotepho 15:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Jimbo reinstated T1 in "divisive and inflammatory" form into the CSD on 6 February. The community accepted this as they viewed it as his decree. However, on 20 February he said "There have been no decrees from me". He did not simply state "here is what de. did" [sic as regards use of quotation marks], he said "The middle ground is to let people do as they will in the user space, and merely use reason and argument to teach people over time why one ought not use Wikipedia userpages for political or other campaigns.... while at the same time saying, no, really, the template namespace is not for that, that we do not endorse this behavior. This is the solution that the Germans have put into effect with great results." [Emphasis added.] All of this can be verified by reading Wikipedia:Jimbo on Userboxes, except the reason for the community accepting it, which must be verified by reading the February history and archived talk page of WP:CSD.

  Finally, I suggest that the talk pages Wikipedia talk:German userbox solution or Wikipedia talk:T1 and T2 debates are the most approriate pages to continue discussion as to what the right general approach is.GRBerry 16:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep deleted. I swear, when you think you've found a solution to a problem, another problem crops up. --Lord Deskana ^{Dark Lord of the Sith} 11:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Out of curiosity, what solution are you referring to? Most other editors here are citing WP:GUS. --StuffOfInterest 15:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and do not list at xfD. The German userbox solution is a compromise designed to end the userbox wars. Speedy deleting userboxes in userspace shows contempt for that compromise, and spits in the face of those who worked hard to make it reality. If the same criteria apply to userboxes in userspace as apply to userboxes in template space, then there is no compromise at all, and the wars, and the exodus, will go on. Jay Maynard 11:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It is disappointing that we may lose a few good editors, but by and large people who would leave wikipedia over this are people who have the wrong idea about Wikipedia and see their userpage as another livejournal. --Improv 13:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Please trim that broad brush. You have no way of knowing that, and the accusation, while not as insulting as saying those who believe userboxes are valuable want to turn Wilipedia into MySpace, is nevertheless quite wide of the mark. The reason people would leave Wikipedia over this is not only the inability to say who one is, but also - and perhaps even more so - that speedy deletions in the face of an ongoing attempt to reach a genuine compromise say that those in power simply do not care what those not in power think. That attitude is far more corrosive than any userbox can be, and, from what I'm seeing, far more pervasive. Jay Maynard 13:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • You hit the nail on the head. When legitimate attempts at compromise are responded to with hard-line stonewalling, you know something is fundamentally wrong with Wikipedia's culture. jgp 13:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Comment The difficulty is that compromise is not possible (or even desirable) in every case. For example, vandals want unlimited vandaism, wikipedia wants none, so it would be pointless to compromise and allow some vandalism. The base issue in this is that some see these boxes as an example of what wikipedia is not, and as such not a valid case for compromise, as what wikipedia is, and is not, is fundamental, not only to its culture, but to wikipedia itself. MartinRe 17:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
          • Now you're just implying that userboxes are vandalism which is grossly off base and quite insulting. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 17:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
            • No, I am implying no such thing. I am simply pointing out that "compromise" is not always a magic word. If you have people that believe (rightly or wrongly) that the opposing view has no merit, then the middle ground will seem equally flawed. If one person thinks 2+2=4 and another says that 2+2=6, a suggested compromise to agree that 2+2=5 would also be rejected, but might be seen as stonewalling. And no, I am not saying any opinion is as right as "2+2=4", but am just pointing out possible reasons why what appears to be a compromise to one person, may appear not to be one to someone else. (and I have seen signs of this on all sides of this debate) Regards, MartinRe 18:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete, as it has always been standard to make and transclude user subpages. --SPUI (T - C) 14:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete no basis for deletion per the German Solution. Also they are most definitely not T1. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 17:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Userfy them to my userpage UBX directory (UBX), which is open to all (non-personal attack/reality-compatible) userboxes. If anyone deletes it there, I will undelete it. Simple. TGS will be implemented, by community consensus. Xoloz 18:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • By the way, I got this idea from User:Cyde Weys, no friend of userboxes, and he is helping me implement it, so I'd say it has some sort of "bipartisan support". Xoloz 19:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Umm, Xoloz, look closely. These were already in user space. Also, if you just undelete them you'll end up being accused of wheel warring. --StuffOfInterest 19:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I know exactly what I said SOI (although I take no offense at your point :) The difference between Winhunter and me is that I can undelete myself, without process hoops. Anyone who wheel-warred with me over my own userspace would go to ArbCom with me, and not be looked on too brightly. If I must wheel-war and lose adminship... oh well. If it ends the userbox war, it is worth it. I trust, however, that my fellow admins would respect my userspace, even if they delete from other "normal users" (sic). If they don't, we'll get this settled. Xoloz 19:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I hate to say this, but regardless of how it gets there I'm starting to think that ArbCom is the right place to go. I had hoped that when WP:GUS came around, backed by Jimbo's own words, things would finally settle. It appears that this isn't the case and higher level policy may be needed. --StuffOfInterest 19:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: I'd like to see fewer user boxes, and I don't care where they are stored. The German system doesn't answer the fundamental question: What is Wikipedia?

Some user boxes are clearly deleted under T1 when they are not inflammatory. The emotional attachment which people show to a particular userbox when it is deleted can indicate whether it is inflammatory, and some raise no hackles. I wouldn't personally delete marginal userboxes until a new policy gains consensus. And people wheel warring over this issue just demonstrates they are too involved to have a dispassionate opinion. What we need in the short term is a simple and non-time consuming way to determine which boxes should be kept and which deleted while policy is worked out.

I suggest a panel of five people representing differing shades of opinion, with a process that means some are deleted and some are kept. Then everyone else can get on with more productive things. It's silly to have so many people involved when at the end of the day, they'll either all be deleted or all be recreated. Stephen B Streater 20:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Does a userbox having people with emotional attachment automatically make them inflammatory? What about the organ donor one? That had lots of emotional attachment, but it is almost completely inconceivable that it is inflammatory. (I just renewed my driver's license today, and made sure to check the box for organ donation, in part because this issue reminded me of it.)

It makes no sense to do anything with userboxes until policy is worked out. All deleting some does is inflame the situation and make it look like those doing the deleting are trying to get their licks in before they're told not to. That's the fundamental argument here: an admin took it upon himself to act while policy is still in flux, and the consensus appears to be that that is objectionable. Your panel would be even more so. Jay Maynard 20:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

A panel might not be a bad idea, but I'd be shocked if anything becomes a policy on userboxes without just being done for a while first. I'd suggest that whomever forms such a panel look for 1) regular participation (no use having someone who drops out for months at a time), 2) demonstrated ability to be educational in discussing the topic, and for at least most of the panel members 3) demonstrated nuanced decisionmaking - no use having a panel of people whose opinions are predictable before they even see the userbox, as that would defeat the reason for forming a panel. I don't think this could become policy, but if a few people formed a panel that would chime in when requested, and that panel met Stephen B Streater's and my criteria, it could help and could even be a good enhancement to WP:GUS. I'm going to boldly take the suggestion, Jay's and my comments over to the talk page for that. So please follow up on this idea at it's talk page. GRBerry 20:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment. What boggles my mind is that everyone seems to overlook that deleting userboxes, especially ones like this that are following the german solution, is far and away more disruptive and divisive that any userbox has ever been on wikipedia. Like it or no, this is the case and has been for some time. Even Jimbo has supported the german solution, why can't it just be left at that. Further attempts to delete WP:GUS compliant userboxes is just going to cause disruption and hassle to everyone and won't change a thing. Userboxes are here to stay. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 21:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

This comment is very close to inspiring me give up on all compromise and turn into a hard-core userbox deletionist. Do you think about the effect your words will have on others? If you say "Userboxes are here to stay", that's like throwing a gauntlet down. Why would you do that? -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not throwing the gauntlet down, just saying that the german solution is a HUGE compromise on the part of people that want userboxes. Why can't it be the meeting point in the middle? JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought the point of WP:GUS was to allow userboxes to stay, in user space, unless they violated some tenet of WP:USER. Is this not correct? Jay Maynard 22:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought the point of WP:GUS was to end the userbox war. In the short run, this means that userboxes stay. In the long run, they will become less important, probably less visible, and possibly less used in total. My personal view of the long run, as a middle aged individual, is that it will be a year or two. But again, this is better discussed at the talk page for WP:GUS instead of here. GRBerry 22:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Jay, have you read anything Jimbo said about userboxes? The point of WP:GUS is to get userboxes the hell out of template space immediately, and allow us to take our time educating people about why they're actually bad for Wikipedia and getting fully rid of them in the long run. If people aren't even going to pretend to be open to the idea that we might have a point about that, then I don't see much sense in doing all the work of trying to make the process smooth. If you're just bound a determined to culturally colonize Wikipedia, and say fuck what Jimbo and the experienced Wikipedians think, then I can pretty well understand why we might respond by trying quite intentionally to drive you away. How can you talk about compromise, when you're not even willing to admit that you might be wrong? Have you done anything in the direction of opening your mind to the valid point that we just might be making, or is it just riveted shut? I'd really just as soon people with minds riveted shut left the encyclopedia writing to those of us capable of seeing from more than one perspective; we're more qualified. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm perfectly willing to admit that you might have a point about it. I understand that Jimbo feels userboxes should go. What I'm having trouble with are two things: 1) Why, if having editors state their PsOV on their user pages is such a problem, is it perfectly acceptable for them to use plain text to say the exact same things - as advocated by a leading userbox deletionist? If it harms the project, shouldn't it go, in whatever form, as a matter of policy - which Jimbo has explicitly refused to do in the case of userboxes? 2) I do view WP:GUS as a compromise, because I do not believe that there is any substantial difference between having userboxes in Template: space and having them in User: space (because I do not believe that any reasonable outsider will believe that Wikipedia is endorsing anything on a user page in any way, and those templates are explicitly restricted to user pages). It appears that userboxes in Template: space and comprehensive userbox directories are at an end, and I'm willing to give that up - but only if there's compromise from the other side, as well. The German userbox solution is that workable compromise, as long as admins don't try to torpedo it by unilaterally applying T1 to templates in user space where it doesn't belong. One admin did so, and that's why we're here.

I'm honestly not trying to piss you off. You have been a voice of reason throughout the implementation of WP:GUS, and even though you may not believe that, I do appreciate it. I'm not out to culturally colonize Wikipedia. I am out to recognize human dynamics, not ignore them, however, in this diverse community. Jay Maynard 23:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, why not stop repeating this tired mantra that people are trying to "ignore human dymanics", for starters? If you're going to persistently mischaracterize the anti-userbox position, I'm going to assume you don't know what it actually is. I don't want anyone to be bland, pretend they have no strong opinions, or hide their POV. That's not what it's about.

Also, "if it harms the project, shouldn't it go, in any form, as a matter of policy?" No. That would be the authoritarian approach. I'll say it again - Wikipedia doesn't work the way you're guessing it must. You have to think outside the bun here. Wikipedia is a new kind of thing, where new kinds of dynamics occur. We don't accomplish things by making rules, and then carrying them out. We suggest, persuade, evolve, flow. I'm not saying that all the people deleting userboxes are providing good examples of how it's supposed to work, but... have you studied Wikis at all? Presumably, anyone who thinks they're working for the good of Wikipedia on this issue has spent a lot of hours at MeatballWiki and the WikiWikiWeb learning about this new technology, and what its social aspects are like, right? If you don't know what Wikiculture is like, how do you know you're not helping to aggressively colonize it, quite by accident, with a destructive view of how it should run?

Next, iconography has power. A rectangle turns a piece of text into a badge, and places its bearer into a category, defined by the text in the box. It's a clear message: "I'm taking a side!" I had a few political userboxes at first, because there's something alluring about them - if you see them on someone else's page, you want some of your own. They're kind of viral that way. Then, one day I realized that my goal, as a Wikipedian, is to dissolve those boundaries, get outside of myself, and continually improve my ability to see issues from multiple perspectives, which quite explicitly translates into better encyclopedia writing. I'm not hiding my beliefs, I just don't choose to emphasize them here, because this is where I try to be something bigger than myself. If they're relevant to an article, I'll state them in the proper context, when I'm in a discussion about that article. I refuse, however, to display a bunch of badges and send the message to anyone visiting my userspace: here's a writer with an agenda, someone who might care about the encyclopedia, but definitely cares about issues X, Y, and Z.

The worst consequence is this: there are peeople in this world who don't care at all about NPOV. They don't care about making a neutral encyclopedia for everyone, that's fair to everyone. They care about advancing their agenda. They are not welcome here. They are enemies to our project. A sheet of colorful useboxes advertising one's pet causes makes Wikipedia look custom-made for POV-pushing. We would prefer that POV-pushers look around Wikipedia and see "gosh, there's a lot of people here who seem really committed to being super-fair minded about things, I feel kind of out of place all advocating for one side in my pet dispute."

Now, I think I've just described a position that's different from how you were characterizing the userbox deletionist stance. Please tell me, Jay, if I've managed to make a distinction between what I say you were saying I'm saying, and what I'm actually saying. Please tell me that I've managed to show that I'm not interested in making people hide their POVs, but I'm actually interested in an ideal where people, fully cognizant and admitting of their POVs, strive to transcend them with every edit to the Wikipedia, and would actually just feel funny advertising them with an attractive little box, just like you might feel out of place wearing a sandwich board advertising your business to church.

I will be quite happy if you continue to disagree, as long as you're accurate about what it is you're disagreeing with. If I haven't managed to clarify it here, please let me know, and I will keep trying. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

This deserves much more reply than I'm comfortable putting in here, as we seem to be getting a bit far afield from the subject (at least, I don't think DRV is a place to discuss deep concepts of Wikipedia philosophy). I'll limit myself here to saying that I'm as fully committed to NPOV in article space as you are, and I fully agree that this is not the place to advance anyone's agenda; I simply disagree that it's fully possible to check one's biases at the door. While your ideal is laudable, it is impossible, and it behooves us to act in understanding of how people are, rather than how we'd like them to be. Jay Maynard 02:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I second the feelings above and add, what is so bad about someone explicitly stating their POVs? If anything it makes it easier to identify if they've let POV come into their work in the article space. If I state, as I do, in my infobox that I am for immigrants rights and then edit an article on that topic with a potentially skewed bias it will be easier to identify that I did and for it to be modified to a more NPOV statement. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete first (whether or not necessary, as it's reappeared elsewhere in Winhunter's user pages); do not send to MfD, as it's not T1, T2, T3, or otherwise Speedyable. keep second deleted only if transcluded by other users, otherwise undelete (if necessary) It is T1, but that doesn't apply unless it's a template. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• undelete these please they are in user space erasure was wrongful Yuckfoo 01:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - these are T2 boxes that would have been quite properly deleted if they had been in template space. Metamagician3000 11:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and slap speedy deleter with a healthy trout. These are in user space. Restore them and get back to the encyclopedia. Please remember --Speedy Deletion is not a Toy 22:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Kill these dead and point those interested to MySpace. --Calton | Talk 05:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • ARGH!!! Would those folks who oppose userboxes please, please quit insulting those of us who favor them by saying we're trying to turn Wikipedia into MySpace? It's just not true, and it's approaching the level of gratuitous incivility. Jay Maynard 12:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I'd call it pretty much a violation of both WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. --StuffOfInterest 12:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Strategic Policy Consulting

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Strategic Policy Consulting

The article about Strategic Policy Consulting was recently deleted and protected against re-creation, along with its associated redirects. This article is referred to in the frequently vandalised article about Alireza Jafarzadeh. Strategic Policy Consulting is relevant to a current event, the Iran and weapons of mass destruction issue. The company, through its links with the Mujahedeen-e_Khalq, is the primary US source of intelligence about Iran at present. The advice it provides may lead to US military action against Iran, thereby changing the course of history in the near future. A Wikipedia article about this company may be referred to by key decision makers throughout the world as they weigh the value of the advice it provides. With this in mind I would like to suggest the article be re-created so that it can be expanded and linked appropriately. --Dave 08:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Without commenting on the value of the article, I have to say that "A Wikipedia article about this company may be referred to by key decision makers throughout the world as they weigh the value of the advice it provides" is the scariest thing I'm likely to read today. Are you serious? · rodii · 15:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment was the article deleted by speedy or via AfD? And yes, the idea of the government consulting wikipedia is very frightening. --tjstrf 15:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Strategic Policy Consulting. User:Zoe|^(talk) 15:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I think Dave probably means that key decision markers will be consulting the subject of the article, not the article itself. If it is the "primary US source of intelligence about Iran", that sounds like a claim of notability not considered by the original AfD that would be worth a re-examination. Is there a third-party source to support this claim? --Sam Blanning^(talk) 16:13, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • That's not how I read it. Not that it's a big deal, but I read it as saying "key decisions maker will turn to the Wikipedia article for background on this company when they decide how much weight to give the company's intelligence." And that seems wrong to me. At the very least, we should be careful not to give credence to any claims about the company unless they meet a pretty high standard of verification. But I think that takes us out of deletion review territory. I agree with what you say about re-examining the evidence. · rodii · 16:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Unprotect/undelete. The article was deleted as an advertisement, but only 4 users even commented on the deletion. A rewritten form should be acceptable and it has a seemingly good claim to notability based on its owner. --tjstrf 17:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse close, but don't object to a rewrite if notability can be established. Just because only four people commented does not make this an invalid deletion. Discuss process. Please note that Googling '"Strategic Policy Consulting, Inc." -wikipedia' only brings up 55 hits, and the first five of those are various websites created by the company. User:Zoe|^(talk) 20:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted: I was the person who originally put this article up for AfD, way back just over a year ago. At the time, the article contained nothing to establish notability. One of the phrases from the article prior to that deletion: "there is a new power house in foreign policy namely Strategic Policy Consulting, Inc." The article read like spam, and I feel was deleted appropriately. The four versions that have been speedy deleted since the AfD deletion have contained less content than the first entry, with the content being less spam like but containing nothing to assert notability. That Alireza Jafarzadeh is the company's president is not in my opinion sufficient to make the company itself notable, as what minimal content has been included in the five deleted versions of the article could very easily be merged into the Alireza Jafarzadeh article. There is a claim above that this company is the primary source of intelligence on Iran for the United States. If that is true, then that is certainly enough claim to notability for an article. However, the claim at this point is uncited. I invite the person who made this deletion review request to create a proposed article at Strategic Policy Consulting/Temp, complete with citations and references substantiating this group's notability. This will give us an opportunity to fairly evaluate if there really is a claim to notability here or if the content should be included in the Alireza Jafarzadeh article, with perhaps a redirect from the subject article. --Durin 21:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse speedy-deletions as recreated content. Allow a rewrite in the Temp space citing independent third-party sources and demonstrating how this company meets the criteria of WP:CORP. I note that this page was rewritten during the AFD discussion by user:12.38.30.1, an IP address whose registration traces back to the same street address as this company. It was reposted word-for-word by that same IP and by two other IPs, leading me to believe that this is a single insider posting about his/her company. If you think you or your company might be important enough for an article, it's always a good idea to wait and let someone else write it. Rossami (talk) 22:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Update: In reviewing the contribution history of the anon IP user, every edit made to other articles has apparently either been deleted or reverted as vandalism. That does seem to make it harder to assume good faith in this particular case. Rossami (talk) 01:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted stub article which made absolutely no claim to encyclopaedic notability. Just zis Guy you know? 08:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I will take up Durin's offer to write a new article on Strategic Policy Consulting. I assure everyone it will not read like an advertisement. If my rewrite of the Alireza Jafarzadeh is any indication it will probably result in another item on my vandal patrol to-do list.

To those above who were apprehensive at the thought of powerful people using Wikipedia for background, it happens regularly. We know for a fact government officials, politicians and other powerful people use Google. Wikipedia articles are often listed close to the top of a Google search and may be the first non-corporate information browsers encounter. At present the number two listing on a Google search for 'strategic policy consulting inc.' is http://www.answers.com/topic/strategic-policy-consulting-inc. The answers.com article is a direct copy of the Wikipedia article recently deleted, even citing Wikipedia as its source. Scary as it is, when powerful people search the web for information today, Wikipedia is often one of the first places they look. --Dave 00:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Actuarial Outpost

This article was previously nominated for deletion with a decision of non-consensus. I question that the article meets neutrality and verifiability conditions for wiki articles. The original article was submitted by a member of the chat site as a vanity piece. The author, Avi, goes by the same name here and on the chat site. He is listed on the web chat site as a site supporter, which he describes as people who contributed funds to sustain the site. Also, most of the article is not verifiable as to who visits, size or influence.Deletionary 03:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• User's 5 edits are all to a AfD or DRV. Kimchi.sg 03:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Unless you have reason to think that the judgement of non consensus is incorrect, and that really there WAS a consensus to delete but the admin missed it, the best thing to do is to wait an appropriate time, and relist the article. DRV is not for revisiting the deletion discussion itself (which it often is helpful to give a link to, though, by the way) but rather for discussing whether there's some reason that it needs to be overturned. IMHO anyway. ++Lar: t/c 05:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete It appears the decision of non-consensus was unduly influenced by the "author" of the site's article and other members of the site who do not satisfy a neutrality requirement. I was not aware of this information and likely the reviewer was not aware either. The user name Avi, is identified as a financial contributor, site supporter, of the site the article is about. Wikipedia is supposed to be a community project and guided by neutrality and verifiable content. I am disappointed that opinions can be inserted into this project so easily in the form of non-neutral vanity pieces. I suppose I come to wikipwedia with too high of expectations.Deletionary 12:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

11 June 2006

The Esplanade Mall

Sheesh - I had to hunt through my browser history to find this. It was deleted recently on VFD. I found it soon after in CAT:CSD tagged at a repost. When I found it, it already was not "just a lengthy list of stores that exist at a mall" as the originally-deleted article was. I cleaned it up and completely rewrote it; the article included information about it being closed due to Hurricane Katrina. And yet it was still deleted as a repost. --SPUI (T - C) 18:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I was the admin who last deleted this article (it had been deleted as a repost once before). Although the content had been slightly rewritten it was fundamentally the same article. I believe that there may have been some confusion here, because the original article also contained a list of stores (but not only a list of stores - as a comment on the AfD indicated). Please let me know if you want me to retrieve the actual contents. Cheers TigerShark 19:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  I remember rewriting it - the grammar was horrible. Also, one of the "votes" reads:

  Even the cleaned-up version (of Clearview Mall) is simply a list of stores. If the article were to contain additional information, such as history of the mall, significant stores that have come and gone, significant events held at the mall, etc. I'd say keep.

  Given that the article as rewritten included some history, either Rehcsif didn't bother to read the article, or the article as rewritten was not the one on VFD. --SPUI (T - C) 19:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse speedy deletion. The article as it stood at the time when the AfD was closed and the article deleted was substantially similar to the most recent version, the main difference being that the most recent version was better written and some cruft had been jettisoned (which did not affect the rationale for deletion - non-notability). A mention of the mall being affected by Hurricane Katrina was inserted into the article only an hour after the AfD began, and didn't sway any editors. And is that really the most interesting thing to say about this shopping centre? Certainly Hurricane Katrina damaged loads of places and doesn't confer notability by association. Unless there's something verified about it that hasn't been brought up yet worth putting in an encyclopaedia, keep deleted. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 19:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • If "votes" that concur with deletion of the present article due to its problems are to be taken as "votes" against any future article on the topic, I will be sure to "vote" to keep any article about a shopping mall, no matter how shitty the writing is. On the one hand, people say to "vote" on how the current article is, not on what it could be, but then (presumably) others delete any new article as a re-creation. --SPUI (T - C) 19:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Restore. For any mall, it is worth describing its role as a transit hub, if this is the case. TruthbringerToronto 20:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist at AfD per TruthbringerToronto. (I tagged the latest recreation of the article, which SPUI removed.) Let's see if SPUI (and others?) can expand the article enough. Kimchi.sg 03:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• 'Relist might as well see the contents and judge based on those, it sounds like it might be an expandable subject. --tjstrf 05:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • We already did that, and so far no new content has been presented to judge since the AfD closed 3 days ago. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. It was listed alongside Clearview Mall, and both received an overwhelming proportion of delete votes, including comments like "malls are not inheirantly notable" and "malls are generally not notable." and "I appreciate the idea and effort, but articles on the malls of towns falls under Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information." GeorgeStepanek\^talk 11:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I'm going to use one of my rare free moments to make a quick comment about this article. I originally listed the article for AfD when it was a list of malls, I would still place in AfD after seeing the recreated article. This mall wasn't the only thing that was hit by Hurricane Katrina, many more things were devasted by it. For instance, homes, roads, a large stadium, people's lives. By placing an article on a mall and stating that it's notable because it closed due to a large Hurricane, is making a mockery of people's lives and of the purpose of Wikipedia. Nothing notable happened in this mall to make it noteworthy, and the closing of a mall due to a hurricane (which is what the mall is SUPOSED to do, so that makes it norm), is not anywhere near the quality that Wikipedia needs to maintain. Yanksox 11:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse speedy-deletion. I reviewed a number of the deleted versions of this article both before and after the deletion decision. I do not consider them sufficiently different to have addressed the core concerns raised during the deletion discussion. Rossami (talk) 22:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy undelete as an improper speedy deletion. Silensor 19:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, no significant improvment has been made. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 20:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Sydney Ling

I feel that this one was badly handled on account of two things - I believe that there was clearly a consensus (and just a few votes shy of a supermajority) for deleting the article. Even more troubling, however, is the fact that the moderator Mailer diablo literally closed the debate and then actually retired from Wikipedia! (At least according to his user page - this all has happened today.) In any case, I'm a bit distressed both because of the outcome and the fact that the mod just got up and left the community straight after. I believe that this was mishandled, and I'd advocate an overturn and delete; here's the original AfD. Thanks! Girolamo Savonarola 13:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Shame about Mailer leaving; it does mean we can't ask him to explain himself. This seems a borderline case; I'd suggest overturning the close and relisting. Mackensen (talk) 14:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Endorse closure. I think you are confusing the way these deletion debates are handled. Consensus is a higher standard than a mere supermajority. It means that we pay as much or more attention to the weight of arguments as we do to the weight of numbers. Reviewing the discussion, I make a vote-count of 16 "delete" to 7 "keep" (with one probable troll discounted). Had there been strong evidence, that could have been sufficient to interpret as the necessary "rough consensus" for deletion. In this case, however, the arguments focused on whether the person is notable enough to meet our recommended criteria for inclusion of biographies and neither side of this debate presented strong evidence either way. Furthermore, many of the participants explicitly qualified their opinions as "weak" (5 of the "keeps" were phrased as "weak keep" and 2 of the "deletes" were "weak delete"). Closing this discussion as "no consensus" seems to me to be well within the reasonable discretion of a closing admin.
  Note: a "no consensus" decision defaults to keep for now but does not prevent anyone from gathering stronger evidence and renominating it for deletion after a reasonable delay. Rossami (talk) 14:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

How, exactly, does one gain stronger evidence of non-notability? You cannot prove a negative, right? I understand that it is not merely a matter of votes, but I offered up what I could, and no one else had much to say. This may be because there wasn't much left to say - those for keeping didn't speak up to justify their votes, while those who voted to delete explained their specific rationale (re notability). Were they expected to expound on it for a full paragraph each? Clearly they felt the matter was a simple one and didn't feel the need to orate on it. While I respect that this isn't necessary what is sought after in an AfD, please let me know what else could have been done, if something wasn't handled well. Girolamo Savonarola 14:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

To gain stronger evidence of non notability, search in more and different, yet still appropriate, places and present the negative results. ++Lar: t/c 11:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, Lar, surely the onus is on those claiming notability to prove that is the case, and not the other way round as it's based on WP:V, verifying that he's notable. (also see comment below) Regards, MartinRe 12:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I agree. I was just directly answering the question asked. However, on a RE list, I think the lister has some responsibility to present new information, sufficient to justify why the previous result was unsatisfactory, or to show that things have changed in some way . That said, I agree with what you say below (and endorse the closure), because "the passage of time with no new notability proof" is a kind of "change in some way". ++Lar: t/c 12:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure the afd focused on whether the subject was notable enough, and the opinion seemed to be borderline, verging on no, so "no consensus" seems a fair enough call on the afd. (if in doubt, don't delete, but not enough case for full keep) However, the notability claims need to be strengthened to remove that doubt, if this is not done, then it could be brought to afd again after a reasonable time, and if the arguements are similar, it will probably swing to delete, with the additional factor of no claims being found since the last afd weighing against the notability claim. Regards, MartinRe 12:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, Mailer diablo does not need to explain himself, the no consensus to delete is quite clear. Silensor 19:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Siberian language

This page has been unilaterally deleted by moderator Alex Bakharev, based on a VfD of more than a year ago. I should point out, however, that a lot of things can change in a year's time, and I have such a feeling that this is the case here. Besides, the contents of the recreated article was completely different from the previous (deleted) version. I should also point out that there is a pending request for a wikipedia in the language, and therefore I think this article is not only of value, but even necessary. I propose undeleting it immediately and issuing a normal AfD procedure instead. — --IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 09:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Original deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Siberian language. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Abstain - The current contents are indeed vastly different than the old, and it does seem perhaps a bit odd to delete as a recreate of a validly deleted article. That being said, the new content was incredibly poor, with bad spelling, links to livejournal, and many of the other markers of a poor article. I also wonder whether it's appropriate to call this a language -- by the article it sounds more like a description of a dialect (perhaps like calling a Boston accent a Boston language?). In sum, I don't know if there's any content worth keeping, and the title's probably misleading too. I'm open to lines of reasoning by other people on this one. --Improv 10:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The matter is just to construct a full language on the base of dialect --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Are you saying this is a project to build a language out of a dialect? Are you involved? How big is this? --Improv 15:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • 1. Yes. 2. We have group of 81 persons who work at it - http://community.livejournal.com/learn_siberian/profile, but I am the leader of this group. 3. It has 15000 words in dictionary now http://volgota.com/govor/language/lj.doc.zip? online dictionary provided by ukrainian research group (NOT me, I can not program) http://totem.in.ua/sib/trans.php, it has rather wide literature of abouat 100 texts http://volgota.com/govor/, it has news service http://volgota.com/news/, so surely it is not OR --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Endorse Deletion - No disrespect is intended for you or your project, but this is too small and too new a project to be covered on Wikipedia, and this smacks of using Wikipedia as a promotional vehicle. Maybe in a few years, this might be appropriate for an article, but as for right now, the article is too close to original research (I doubt there are independent studies of the language) and promo. --Improv 16:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted - Utter nonsense. There is absolutely no such thing as the "Siberian language". --Timothy Usher 10:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • just see it at http://volgota.com - newspaper, books, site interface. Wiki has many articles about languages not so developed as Siberian --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - The language was developed from the time of last deletion, now it is very complicated, many texts translated and written, many people learning it, a big site launched, so it is not "non-notable" conlang now --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - I absolutely agree with Yaroslav Zolotaryov. By the way, the site about siberian language and test wiki on siberian --Steel archer 14:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Both of these accounts were created to vote on Deletion Review. Not cool. --Improv 16:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • You can see my history in UK and Yaroslav's (Anarch) history in RU Wikipedias. Why new users can't vote? --Steel archer 21:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted - no reliable sources, unverifiable. --Pjacobi 12:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Just search in Google "siberian language/сибирский язык/сибирской говор/сибірська мова". And look at test siberian wiki. There are 5-10 millions people in Siberia (and not only there) what spoke on this language, and I'm. too. Do you think I'm speaking on language what is not exist? :) --Steel archer 16:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, looking at the article, the VfD was as valid today as it was last year. --fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 12:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Please, elucidate your thought. --Steel archer 16:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. This looks like an attempt to promote a non-notable constructed language. There are no independent, neutral sources to confirm the existance of a specific "Siberian language" as described in the article. There are several languages spoken in Siberia, but this article does not adress any of them. --Ezeu 12:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Just search in Google "siberian language/сибирский язык/сибирской говор/сибірська мова". And look at test siberian wiki. There are 5-10 millions people in Siberia (and not only there) what spoke on this language, and I'm. too. Do you think I'm speaking on language what is not exist? :) --Steel archer 15:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • The test wiki is not an independent reliable source. Much of it is written by some people participating here. --Ezeu 12:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Siberian language was prohibited in Russian Empire and Soviet Union. And now, most of people which are against this language are russian imperialists indeed. And this is a reason why it is rather difficult to find sources about siberian. There are no full literature siberian language: Yaroslav Zolotaryov just constructs it basing on many siberian dialects. So, you can hardly ever find people speak on ""literature"" siberian - only on its dialects. --Steel archer 16:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist to AfD: from my reading in linguistics I would expect it to be deleted there, but it would give non-admins the chance to debate the deletion on the merits of its content, especially as it doesn't seem to meet the recreated content CSD. --Aquilina 12:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - This page needs to be undeleted. The language has already been constructed. It is based on a local dialect, but its' origins are really beside the point. There is, for example, a wiki page for Talossan language, that has been constructed by a single person for a country completely invented by him, and whose "words and grammar are just made up at random". Surely Siberian has far better basis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.20.29.135 (talk • contribs) 13:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• The speedy-deleted version was significantly different from the deleted version. On that basis, I'm afraid that we must overturn the speedy-deletion and relist to AFD. However, I am deeply skeptical that the article will prevail during the deletion discussion. The prior deletion discussion was unanimous and included the opinion of the alleged author of this recently constructed language. None of the concerns raised in the prior deletion debate have been answered either in the redeleted article nor in this discussion so far. The wiki does not meet the required standards for a reliable source and the google test (168 unique hits) returns very little that appears relevant. Every hit I scanned used the phrase "Siberian language" in the casual sense of "a language used by a community indiginous to the geographic area of Siberia", not in the sense of a unified language. Rossami (talk) 14:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • You can try the google test in russian language, and will see many sources about the siberian not from me or Volgota group. Being an artefact of local culture, it is simply not mentioned in the english-speaking audience --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Without sources that are functionally verifiable by the english-speaking participants of the English Wikipedia, that won't help much. Perhaps this would be more appropriate if transwiki'd to the Russian Wikipedia]? Rossami (talk) 14:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Better to the ukrainian article in http://ukr.wikipedia.org/wiki, because we believe it is more ibjective. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Weak overturn and relist per Aquilina. The version debated on VfD was a short stub, while the version deleted as G4 was fairly detailed. That said, I'd say the new version fails WP:OR pretty hard, and should be deleted or heavily shortened on that basis unless independent sources are provided. It's almost a WP:SNOW case, but I'm personally willing to give it its five days on AfD, just in case I'm proven wrong. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 14:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Some independent sources http://dpni.org/forum/post48701.html

    http://e-novosti.info/forumo/viewtopic.php?t=1819 (discussion about necessary of tukr words are they allowed or not)

    Kazakhstan article http://www.dialog.kz/site.php?lan=russian&id=76&pub=1032 (positive)

    Ukrainian article http://lab.org.ua/article/727/ (positive)

    Latvian forum http://www.evangelie.ru/forum/archive/t-14778-p-2.html (positive reaction)

    Ukrainian forums http://forum.sevastopol.info/viewtopic.php?p=134921&sid=e1bfb2dad69ccbe92f653f8e69a61352 http://www.novy.tv/ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20068&sid=6dfe6e7e13df8be971f34aa81aa365c5 (positive reaction, people reciting verses in siberian)

    Russian forum http://www.disenteria.ru/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=7492&s= (some people from Siberia testify that they know this words and grammar)

    Moscow forum http://forum.msk.ru/wap/news.wml?id=2200 (negative reaction, but the language considered natural)

    --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

    • Do you have any sources in English? The sources above may well substantiate the claims in the article for all I know, but I can't really tell since my grasp of Russian is almost nonexistent. Failing that, you might try to find a neutral established Wikipedian who understands Russian to review the sources — any volunteers? (In any case, this discussion belongs on AfD, should the article get relisted there, not here on DRV. If you wish to reply in length, please do so on my talk page or wait for the AfD listing.) —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist as different, where I will vote delete as this asserts the factual existence of this language, but no reliable sources have been produced to suggest that it is anything other than a conlang. Just zis Guy you know? 16:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per Mikka, who speaks several comparable languages and is (unlike the average AfD voter) able to understand the supposed sources. Just zis Guy you know? 22:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• keep deleted. original research. No independent information from anywhere but fans' writings provided. (forums are not allowed as sources for wikipedia) `'mikka (t) 19:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: this is nót about the question whether it is a good article or not. If there's something wrong with an article, it should be improved. Perhaps the English wasn't perfect indeed, and perhaps there was a link to a blog or something, but I think this article was still a lot better than the average stub. That kind of things can be fixed easily without deleting an article. Neither is this about the question whether constructed languages in general should be in Wikipedia or not. Nor about the question whether this article was original research. This is about the way it was deleted! Every time when a conlang is listed for deletion, they say: at present this language is not notable enough, but when that has changed, by all means create an article about it. Now, I think there are reasons to assume that that is indeed the case here. I can see many reasons why the language is notable enough. But even if I'm wrong, the merits of Siberian should be discussed properly in an AfD discussion, but definitely not here. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 21:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Surely, the article can be changed, my english is poor, and my view to the language is definitely non-neutral, so if would be better article, it would be fine --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted per WP:NOR. It's just another LiveJournal flashmob. MaxSem 21:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • That's exactly the point. That might have been true one year ago, it definitely isn't true anymore. But again, let's not start discussing the article itself, but the way it has been deleted. At present, no one can even read what the discussion is about. I think the least it deserves is a proper AfD discussion, pending which every participant in the discussion can read the article. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 21:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment: I've temporarily undeleted the history for the duration of this DRV discussion. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Extreme speedy keep deleted. OR, an attempt at advertising an nn conlang, nothing has changed to make this more notable than the first decision to delete. We're not here to reargue the AfD, but to discuss whether or not the original deletion was appropriate. It was, it still is. User:Zoe|^(talk) 23:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Pardon me, but this is not about the question whether the original deletion was appropriate. It no doubt was. If little Pete writes an article about his hobbies, then it will be deleted. But if he's suddenly elected president of the USA, does that mean there can't be an article about him because there has already been a valid VfD? What bothers me is this: once an article has survived an AfD, it can be relisted for deletion again, and again, and again, until the deletionists get their way. But once an article has been deleted, there is no way go get it back, even if things may have changed. I think that's bad, very bad! —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 08:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: out of curiosity I looked into the website of the "language". After reading the "translation" of Pushkin quoted below I am more inclined to believe this is a practical joke rather than a serious attempt to revive a supposedly extinct "Siberian" dialect of Russian. Native Russian speakers, prepare for a good laugh:

  Мой дедя шыбко чесных веров,

  Кода-от шыбко захворал,

  Людям дык всю дыхню зашкерил,

  В горбыль всех просто зайобал.

  And there is more of this.`'mikka (t) 23:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  • But such were dialetical expressions of the same meaning which is in Pushkin verse, and you laugh simply for diregarding the folk speech --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Hmm, Eugene Onegin in hillbilly... ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 08:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Tread carefully the fine line between humour and mockery. --Ezeu 08:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • No mockery of Pushkin there, Pushkin himself liked dialects, used them, if he were alive now, he perhaps voted for siberian here. His poem "Ruslan and Ludmila" was also regarded as mockery just for using dialectical words and common people's relation to the topic of this poem. So in fact, our group continues Pushkin's work, but conservators are against him --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Irrelevant. Just like "bad spelling", "links to livejournal", "too small and too new a project", "no such thing as the Siberian language", "no reliable sources", "promotion" and "original research" are irrelevant here. Again, this discussion should not be about the language itself. We have AfD discussions for that. This discussion is about the question whether an article that has been deleted in the remote past can or cannot be recreated. The admin in question has unilaterally deleted the article and locked the page, and thát is the decision I'm questioning here. People's personal tastes have no place in such discussion. For the record, I don't have a clear opinion on the matter. I'm in no way connected to the creators of the language. What I can tell as one of Wikipedia's self-proclaimed resident conlang experts, is that a lot seems to have changed since the last AfD. If the language has indeed a group of 80 active users, and if there is some press coverage, then it just might qualify for an article. Besides, we have this discussion about a wikipedia in the language going on. Personally, I don't believe this is a hoax. But like I said, that kind of arguments belong in an AfD discussion, not here. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 08:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    • This was not an argument. This was a comment that started this thread. This zolotarev guy extended his hobby joke as to suggest a siberian language wikipedia. How do you imagine wikipedia in hillbilly. This alone says something about this project. As for 80 active users: how do you know that? Somehow I don't believe Zolotaryov. The basic argument against undeletion is wikipedia:Verifiability. The "some" press coverage seen is not a reliable source, it is still word of language creator's mouth, not of an independent linguistics expert. In other words, the major objection voiced during deletion is not addressed by the new version. Article size doesn't matter. `'mikka (t) 17:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
      • A hundred years ago Ukrainian was also considered "hillbilly Russian" by the czarist government. In other words, thát argument doesn't really hold stake. As for your point regarding verifiability: I tend to agree with you here. I'd love to see some samples of real press coverage, because thát is IMO what makes the difference. I don't know whether to believe Mr. Zolotaryov or not. The whole discussion evokes quite strong reminiscences of High Icelandic. If you haven't seen it, I'd say it's worth to take a look at the AfD discussion there. My whole point is only that I think the subject deserves proper discussion, and this is not the place for it. In a normal AfD discussion I certainly wouldn't have voted "keep" without convincing arguments. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 22:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • But it should be defined, what argument are relevant in the english wiki. If it will be defined with certainity, I shall find them. "There is no such language at all" surely is not an argument. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted this nonsense, please. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 18:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, keep deleted. AfD had six deletes, no keeps. No suggestion of any voting irregularities or debatable sysop judgement. I note too that the article has no real references; the fact that one of the external links is described as "Volgota, the main promo site" strongly suggests that the purpose of the article is not to synthesize published factual material into an encyclopedia article, but to promote a project. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Quite so. Nobody is arguing that the AfD was invalid. But for heaven's sake, that was over a year ago! A lot can change in the meantime. If Yaroslav can somehow substantiate his claims about the number of speakers, and provide some verifiable info regarding press coverage, then I can't see why the article wouldn't deserve a second chance. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 05:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • In what way can I substantiate it? What info about the press is verifiable? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I see no reason to believe that this Yaroslav fellow (among others) has any existence beyond that of a sockpuppet created to vote in this deletion review..Timothy Usher 05:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • But I do! User's first contribution was dated 10 June, 18:49 (UTC). This deletion review was dated 11 June, 9:32 (UTC). So tell me: how can this account have been created with the sole purpose of voting here, if there wasn't any vote yet? I think it's always better to assume good faith! —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 07:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, nn and ue. Also, there seems to be a campaign to start a separate Wikipedia in this language. What's next Klingon and Elvish Wikipedias? --Irpen 01:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • There used to be a wikipedia in Klingon, but it has been closed down. An Elvish wikipedia has been proposed, but I don't think there's enough support for it. BTW, I'm not thát frequent a guest here; what does "ue" mean? —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 05:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Those must have been shut down for a reason. ue=unencyclopedic, nn=non-notable. --Irpen 15:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Nonsense. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 15:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Nonsense of course. Elk Salmon 08:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - Article is present in four Wikipedians (ru:Сибирский язык, be:Сыбірская мова, eo:Siberia lingvo,uk:Сибiрська мова). Please see also discussion in Russian Wikipedia (ru:Обсуждение:Сибирский язык) There article is solved keep and increase. See also article Slovio - such constructed language --Yakudza 15:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It is also being considered for deletion on the Russian Wikipedia, with a current consensus to delete (see ru:Википедия:К удалению/14 июня 2006#Сибирский язык) ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 01:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Very Weak Overturn and immediate AfD - The original was just a stub; for the sake of process, the deleted content should have its day in court. Being a linguist, I am sure it will fail AfD. I think the effort might be notable enough to (very briefly) mention the attempted "promotion" of a dialect in another article (Russian language, maybe?), but it definately doesn't deserve its own article.--WilliamThweatt 15:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion per mikka & MaxSem, article is original research. ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 01:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

10 June 2006

Template:Major_programming_languages

I did not see the TfD discussion until after someone acted on it to remove the template from an article I watch. Looking through the discussion, it appears that the discussion had 11 delete votes, and 6 keep votes (FWIW, I would have voted "keep" if I had noticed it). It doesn't seem like deletion on a bare majority is the right closing action (no consensus would be more fitting). As far as I can see, all the votes on both sides were cast in good faith, by established editors, and accompanied by reasonable statements of reasons. So the conduct of the discussion seems eminently reasonable... it just doesn't seem to have been closed correctly. LotLE×talk 20:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Note: Original TFD: Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_May_25#Template:Major_programming_languages — xaosflux ^Talk 00:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. I would have closed this TfD the same way IceKarma did. Unless Lulu's opinion would have brought with it a fantastic new argument, I doubt including his "vote" amongst the others would have tipped the balance, either. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 09:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  No,I wouldn't have had any fantastic argument that was much different from other voters. I just think that a supermajority (i.e. 75-80%, or at the least 66%) should be required for deletion, rather than just a majority (absent evidence of sockpuppetry, or clearly more experienced editors on one side of a vote, or other special circumstance... none of which existed here). 11/7 is pretty much the same thing as 11/6 in this regard. LotLE×talk 17:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  Well, *fD's being not a vote is more than just discounting inexperience or sockpuppetry. It also means that an overwhelming majority is not required for consensus to exist. Now, don't get me wrong; I'm generally in favor of keeping articles over deleting them (as long as they're maintainable and verifiable), but it seems clear from the discussion that maintaining the template was plain infeasible, by consensus. I also note that there was no prejudice against creating a new, more maintainable template. Powers 18:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  When did I mention the tally? When closing AfDs, MfDs, RfDs, and the occasional (during the long dark teatime of the soul) TfD, I make a point of never counting the number of "votes". Knowledge of the raw numbers will shed no light on the appropriate course of action, and is thus unnecessary and occasionally even obfuscatory. Bugger the tally. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 04:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Lulu: Tfd is not a vote! Don't count comments like it was one. --Cyde↔Weys 03:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

06 June 2006

Image:WikiPâques.png

Image:WikiPâques.png was deleted in February on the basis it was an orphan. Well, of course it was an orphan - it was February and the image was an Easter Wikipedia logo, so it'll only be unorphaned when it's Easter. I see no valid reason to delete this. Users may still want it on their user page at Easter. It's also causing red links in older revisions. See Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2006 February 14 for the listing on IfD. There's a copy here if the deletion is overturned and someone wants to reupload it. Angela. 08:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Re-upload to Commons, so any project can use it, and Commons is outside of enwiki's jurisdiction. --Rory096 08:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Upload to Commons, it doesn't appear to be english, but may be useful. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Recently concluded

2006 June

1. Okashina_Okashi - Decision of the original closer to relist at AfD is endorsed. 15:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
2. Dismal's Paradox - Relisted at AfD. 15:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
3. User:SPUI/jajaja - Nomination withdrawn. 13:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
4. List of political leaders widely regarded as totalitarian - Request for information answered. 05:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
5. Certainty principle - Deletion endorsed. 16:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
6. Cultural references in Pokémon - Deletion endorsed. 16:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
7. Fluffy (The Lion King) - Deletion endorsed. 16:28, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
8. Kelly Roberti - Copyright issue resolved, restored. 11:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
9. Image:Pierre Janssen.jpg - Commons image, action impossible here. 15:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC) Review
10. Neanderthal theory of autism - Deletion endorsed. 15:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
11. Be bold, Be Bold - Overturn RfD and revert to WP:BOLD. 15:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
12. Jeff Lindsay - Deletion endorsed. 15:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
13. "State Debate Associations" - Deletion endorsed. 15:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
14. How NOT to steal a SideKick 2 - Deletion endorsed. 17:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
15. Kinston Indians - Deletion endorsed. 17:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
16. Wikipedia:SCAG - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
17. Image:Nuvola 64 apps important.png - undeletion impossible; deleted prior to 16 June 2006. 13:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
18. Sick Nick Mondo - Deletion endorsed for now, pending AfD outcome for related Nick Mondo; should that survive, this is a suitable redirect. 18:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review

    Nick Mondo having survived AfD, this is restored as a redirect. 15:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

19. True Torah Jews - Deletion endorsed. 18:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review
20. UCIP - Deletion endorsed. 18:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review
21. Mending Wall - Keep endorsed. 11:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review
22. Fred Wilson (venture capitalist) - Deletion endorsed. 17:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
23. TheSmartMarks.com - Deletion endorsed. 17:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
24. Dirt pudding - Transwiki and deletion endorsed. 17:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
25. Kirill Makharinsky - Deletion endorsed. 17:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
26. Armando Lloréns-Sar - History restored, maintained as redirect; merge issues are an editorial concern for article's talk page. 17:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
27. Hollywood Undead - Deletion endorsed. 17:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
28. Trexy - Closing administrator agreed to relist AFD. 03:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC) Review
29. Stir of Echoes: The Dead Speak - No consensus closure endorsed. 18:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
30. Knox (animator) - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 18:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
31. Lightsaber combat - Keep closure endorsed. 18:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
32. Stone Trek - Deletion closure endorsed. 18:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
33. File:944 h.jpg - DRV closed, image in Commons jurisdiction. 18:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
34. Sadullah Khan - Undeleted, relisted. 18:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
35. Atromitos - Undeleted. 18:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
36. Walk To Emmaus - Deletion endorsed. 18:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
37. Wikipedia:Conservative notice board. Kept deleted. Strong endorsement. 20:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC) Review.
38. Lost: The Journey - Relisted. 18:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
39. User:Dtm142/User no evil boxes and Template:User Gangster - Undeleted. 18:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
40. The Lost Boys (demogroup) - Relist. 17:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
41. Second War (Harry Potter) - Deletion endorsed. 17:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
42. IRCDig - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
43. Saryn Hooks - Undeleted and relisted at AfD. 17:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
44. Template:Major_programming_languages - template content restored 06:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC) review
45. Strategic Policy Consulting - Deletion endorsed. 16:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC) Review
46. Actuarial Outpost - Kept kept, mistaken nomination. 16:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC) Review
47. Image:WikiPâques.png - Uploaded to Commons, as suggested. 16:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
48. The Esplanade Mall - Deletion endorsed by narrow majority. 16:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
49. Sydney Ling - AfD result of "no consensus" endorsed. 15:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
50. Siberian language - Deletion endorsed. 15:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
51. Burlington Center Mall - Challenge of no consensus afd withdrawn. 02:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
52. Erik Möller - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
53. theSMSzone.com and Kunal Singh - Deletions endorsed. 17:32, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
54. Wikipedia:OURS - Deletion endorsed by narrow majority. 17:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
55. 2001: A Space Odyssey (film synopsis) - Deletion endorsed. 17:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
56. Conservative Underground - Deletion endorsed. 17:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
57. Boring Business Systems - AfD reopened by acclamation. 20:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
58. Joseph D. Campbell - Previous AfD overturned, to be relisted at AfD. 16:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
59. Church of Reality - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 16:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
60. Heinen's - Result reversed by consensus, AfD now closed as "no consensus". 16:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
61. BB Sinha - Restored, listed at AfD. 16:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC) (deleted at AfD 20:27, 17 June 2006 (UTC)) Review
62. Mending Wall - Restored, listed at AfD, closed as keep, brought here again (above). 16:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
63. Cancer Bats - Restored, to be resubmitted to AfD in light of new evidence. 17:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
64. Cum On Her Face - Deletion endorsed. 16:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
65. AlternC - Deletion endorsed. 16:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
66. Tiffany Holiday - Deletion endorsed. 16:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
67. Shane Cubis - Deletion endorsed unanimously (excepting discounted anons/newbies.) 16:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
68. Certainty principle - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 16:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
69. Big Brother 7 chronology - Deletion endorsed. Will userfy upon request. 15:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Review
70. Wikimedia Meta-Wiki - action reverted by the closer. AFD reopened. 03:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Review
71. The Adventures of Dr. McNinja - Consensus to permit userpage draft as new recreation, will be submitted to AfD. 17:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Review
72. Cory kennedy - Deletion endorsed. 17:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Review
73. User:Rgulerdem/Wikiethics - Kept deleted unanimously. 17:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Review
74. Yar - Deletion endorsed without prejudice to unrelated redirect now at title. 17:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
75. List of midnight movies - Content restored for merge and redirect. 17:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
76. AK Productions - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
77. FAST - Fighting Antisemitism Together - Undeleted and sent to AfD. 17:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
78. List of tongue-twisters - Deletion endorsed in light of new Wikiquote transwiki. 17:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
79. User:Raphael1/Wikiethics - Deletion endorsed. 17:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
80. Roosters1908, Sydneyroosters1909, and Sydneyroosters1910 - Undeleted to be AfD'ed in light of new evidence. 17:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
81. National Hockey Leaque player lists - Restored speedily and AFD reopened. 08:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
82. User:AKMask/log - Restored (by a narrow margin) to be sent to MfD. 03:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
83. Male Unbifurcated Garment - Deletion endorsed (again -- Second DRV in two weeks.) 03:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
84. Penis banding - Deletion endorsed. 15:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC) Review
85. Template:User no notability - Deletion narrowly endorsed. (date unavailable, deletion review never archived) Permalink
86. Syed Ahmed - deletion endorsed, redirected to The Apprentice (UK series 2) 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
87. Ho Shin Do - deletion endorsed without prejudice 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
88. Israel News Agency - article content restored 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
89. Delaware County Intermediate Unit - Deletion closure endorsed. 00:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
90. Steve Bellone - Deletion closure endorsed unanimously. 00:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
91. Team NoA - Previous version restored, survived AfD as no consensus. 00:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
92. Springfield M21 - Restored as redirect with history. 16:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
93. The drips - Speedy deletion contested, overturned; sent to AfD. 15:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
94. Template:Voting icons - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 15:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
95. Ali Zafar - New NPOV recreation permitted. 03:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
96. Barbara Bauer, The Literary Agency Group and others - Bauer undeleted and kept at AfD; others kept deleted. 03:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
97. Scienter - deletion overturned. 03:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
98. Auto repair shop - original speedy deletion endorsed, without prejudice to now-existing distinct redirect at this title. 03:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
99. Wikipedia v search engines - deletion endorsed unanimously. 03:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
100. Pat Price - deletion overturned unanimously, no need to relist. 03:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
101. Talk:Brian Peppers - kept deleted. 00:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
102. The Juggernaut Bitch - article content restored 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
103. South Coast League - deletion endorsed 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
104. Other side of the pillow - deletion endorsed 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
105. Joel Leyden - article content restored 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
106. Sharting - deletion endorsed 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
107. User:Disavian/Userboxes/Green Energy - deletion endorsed, narrowly 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
108. Left-wing terrorism - article history restored 17:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
109. Stella Maris College Scout Group - deletion endorsed 17:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
110. List of Michael Savage neologisms - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
111. Superhorse - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
112. Exicornt - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
113. Image:Lock-icon.jpg - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
114. College Confidential - article content restored 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
115. Tim Dingle - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
116. Abstract People - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
117. Christian views of Hanukkah - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
118. Claught of a bird dairy products - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
119. LIP6 - continue from rewritten version 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
120. Hulk 2 - redirected to Hulk (film) for now 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
121. Xombie - article content restored 17:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
122. Possible wars between liberal democracies speedy-deletion undone by deleting admin. listed to AFD. 13:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
123. Gary Howell deletion endorsed. 20:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
124. New Sincerity - deletion endorsed. 20:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
125. Successful Praying - speedy deletion as copyvio endorsed. 20:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
126. Videohypertransference - user copy granted. deletion from articlespace endorsed. 20:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
127. Oz Categories 8 endorse, 5 overturn, deletion endorsed. 17:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC) Review

Userbox discussions

• Template:User no notability - deletion endorsed, narrowly 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
• Template:User organ donor template content restored 17:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
• User:CharonX/Userboxes/User christian See WP:TGS
• Template:User satanist kept deleted
• Template:User cannabis kept deleted
• Template:User CCP - kept deleted. 00:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
• Template:User against fox hunting (result keep deleted, WP:SNOW. Massive endorsement.)

Archives

• Wikipedia:Deletion review/Recently concluded (2006 May)
• Wikipedia:Deletion review/Recently concluded (2006 April)

This page is about articles, not about people. If you feel that a sysop is routinely deleting articles prematurely, or otherwise abusing their powers, please discuss the matter on the user's talk page, or at Wikipedia talk:Administrators. If you nominate an article here, be sure to make a note on the sysop's user talk page regarding your nomination. A template, {{subst:DRVNote}} is available to make this easier.

Similarly, if you are a sysop and an article you deleted is subsequently undeleted, please don't take it as an attack.

This page is about articles, not about people. If you feel that a sysop is routinely deleting articles prematurely, or otherwise abusing their powers, please discuss the matter on the user's talk page, or at Wikipedia talk:Administrators. If you nominate an article here, be sure to make a note on the sysop's user talk page regarding your nomination. A template, {{subst:DRVNote}} is available to make this easier.

Similarly, if you are a sysop and an article you deleted is subsequently undeleted, please don't take it as an attack.

Proposed deletions

Articles deleted under the Wikipedia:Proposed deletion procedure (using the {{PROD}} tag) may be undeleted, without a vote, on reasonable request. Any admin can be asked to do this, alternatively a request may be made here. However, such undeleted articles are open to be speedy deleted or nominated for WP:AFD under the usual rules.

• none currently listed

Instructions

Before listing a review request, please:

1. Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
2. Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.

Steps to list a new deletion review

1.	Click here and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the page, xfd_page with the name of the deletion discussion page (leave blank for speedy deletions), and reason with the reason why the discussion result should be changed. For media files, article is the name of the article where the file was used, and it shouldn't be used for any other page. For example: {{subst:drv2 |page=File:Foo.png |xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png |article=Foo |reason= }} ~~~~
2.	Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page: {{subst:DRV notice|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~
3.	For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach <noinclude>{{Delrev|date=2024 May 15}}</noinclude> to the top of the page under review to inform current editors about the discussion.
4.	Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion: If the deletion discussion's subpage name is the same as the deletion review's section header, use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 May 15}}</noinclude> If the deletion discussion's subpage name is different from the deletion review's section header, then use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 May 15|page=SECTION HEADER AT THE DELETION REVIEW LOG}}</noinclude>

Commenting in a deletion review

Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:

• Endorse the original closing decision; or
• Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
• List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
• Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
• Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
• Some consider it a courtesy, to other DRV participants, to indicate your prior involvements with the deletion discussion or the topic.

Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted:

• *'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~
• *'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~
• *'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~
• *'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~

Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.

The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.

Temporary undeletion

Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}} template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.

Closing reviews

A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.

If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:

• If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
• If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.

Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)

Speedy closes

• Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
• Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
• Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
• Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".

14 June 2006

Lost: The Journey

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lost: The Journey
• Overturn and delete. The final tally was six deletes, one transwiki, one merge/delete, and one keep. However, closing admin Lar (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) decided to act on his own initiative to countermand the consensus, stating instead there was no consensus because he felt that the one "keep" vote's reasoning was strong enough. I frankly don't follow his logic or understand what he found so notable about the one keep vote, but I think he's enforcing his own opinion over the decided-upon community consensus with this article, and thus appeal his decision here (as he invited people to do when closing the decision). — Mike • 02:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • A review of Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators#Rough consensus does not appear to yield any means by which seven out of nine votes — votes that were very clearly not made in bad faith — can be entirely discarded by the closing admin. — Mike • 03:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• I welcome review of this one, because it was dicey for me when I made the call. I acknowledge that numerically, the margin was wide. I don't think any of the comments (NOT votes) were made in bad faith at all, and didn't diacount the sentiments, but I was quite convinced by the argument made by ArgentiumOutlaw and after all, this is a judgement call, not a nose count. Naturally I think I got to the right outcome and would say Keep kept. But I welcome input from my peers, and thank you in advance for it. (BTW I'm excited, because this is my first DRV!) ++Lar: t/c 03:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I mean this respectfully, but when reviewing the Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators document, I did not see anything within the document, barring bad faith situations, that allows an administrator to ignore the principle of rough consensus when making a decision closing a document. There is the paragraph that begins, "Some opinions can override all others," but the examples cited (copyvio, userfy, WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV) do not seem to apply to the votes comments cast. — Mike • 03:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I have some learnings from this I'll be posting later as well as more responses but I'll let some of those sit. I do have one thing I want to point out which you'll just have to take my word for. Several commenters here are saying I let my personal feeling convince me how to close. Well, in part, that's where judgement does need to come in, on a close call, add in your own feeling... that's sometimes right and proper in my view (if the alternative is to relist for consensus the third time or do nothing, for example). But in this case, my PERSONAL view, had I chose to commment (on a 5 day overdue for close nom) instead of close... would have been DELETE. Clips are a bit more notable than regular episodes but I do not think any show, even this one, needs an article for every episode. I overlooked that view, because thought at the time that the fact that MedCab/Com was working on this was a reason not to rush this, leave it around, and let them resolve it later. (others below point out that's not necessarily a really good reason...). Also, the medcab argument was made late in the discussion. Arguments made late, if not commented on by people that commented before they were aware of the facts, tend to carry more weight with me when judging consensus. And make no mistake, I was judging consensus without taking my personal desire to delete into account. If this goes back on AfD I'll leave it to someone else to close, so I can comment DELETE. I just don't think that was the right thing to do in view of the mediation thing. If it gets overturned, I'll delete it myself and happily, unless someone beats me to it. One BIG learning I have from this already is the need to explain in more detail when necessary (check out Splash's Phil Sandifer close explanation, it's a model. I hope to be that good someday)... ++Lar: t/c 16:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete, I fail to see what was so strong about the one keep comment that ruled out six delete comments. (Disclaimer: I voted delete in the AfD in question.) BryanG^(talk) 03:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • comment Seven, actually. There was a merge/delete in there. — Mike • 03:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not really a valid vote. You can't merge *and* delete, the edit history needs to be preserved. Closers typically count those as keep votes, since they wanted to keep the content, just didn't understand the finer points of the GFDL. Transwiki votes go as keeps too, while we're at it, since the person also wanted to keep the content. --W.marsh 03:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

And that's why I didn't count the merge/delete vote, although looking at it again I would interpret it as "merge if considered useful or delete". But then, I'm not an admin. It wasn't a straight delete comment anyway, so I'm not counting it as such. BryanG^(talk) 03:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks W.marsh. SO if we ARE insisting on counting votes here, it's 6:3. That's 66% which is a Keep No Consensus. I have a couple of other bones to pick here... first, Mike you keep talking about good faith, and I wish you would stop, because I saw no comments I judged to be in bad faith. Second, you keep citing the Deletion Guideline like it's a process that cannot be deviated from. It's not the law, it's a guide... and we admins are asked to use our judgement. I hope you have internalised that before you become an admin yourself. Third, you suggest I'm "enforcing my own opinion"... "countermanding consensus"... that's not at all fair, those terms are quite loaded, in my view anyway. What I did was look at the arguments made, look at the article and its contents, and made a considered judgement that there wasn't a consensus to delete. That's what the closing admin is supposed to do. This article was 4 days overdue for a decision and I've been thinking about it for some time (I looked at a lot of these on my lunch hour). I also asked some of my admin colleauges on IRC for their thoughts and they agreed with me that K-NC was the right outcome. I'm hopeful that some of them will pop in here. Maybe I'm wrong though and this really was a Delete. I'd like to learn from it if that's the case... but telling me to read something that's a guide, and that I've already read, isn't going to help me learn. ++Lar: t/c 03:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

First, I am citing good faith solely in the context of the deletion guidelines citing bad faith as a valid reason to delete. I am not applying the concept of good or bad faith to your actions. I am bringing it up solely in the context of citing the relevant policy and guidelines that address the actions you take when closing a vote.

Second, I would again repeat my request for any Wikipedia policy or document that provides administrators with the freedom to use their judgment to make a decision that goes against rough consensus when making deletion closures. The relevant cites I can find indicate that in the deletion policy, it states, "At the end of the discussion, if a rough consensus for deletion has been reached, the page will be removed per Wikipedia:Deletion process; otherwise the page remains." Rough consensus is defined as outlined in this subsection, with a link to this Wikipedia article.

Third, were we to make the case that a vote, through some improper terminology, should not be included, it should not be included in the total when considering what proportion of the votes are delete votes. In other words, it is not that six out of nine votes were cast to delete, it is that six out of seven votes (85%) were cast to delete. But I really don't agree with those figures, either. That leads me into ...

Fourth, I disagree that the merge/delete vote should not be counted. The text of that vote states, "Merge anything useful into the main Lost article ... otherwise Delete if there is nothing that editors of that article consider to be useful." I believe the text of that vote quite effectively counts as a delete vote. That would make this seven out of eight votes (87.5%).

— Mike • 04:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure well within his discretion, especially considering you can argue that the votes were 3/9 in favor of keeping, and that's a marginal consensus to delete at best. Lar probably should have just said "no consensus" though - since that is different than closing as a pure keep (now more than ever, see the recent changes to Wikipedia:Speedy keep). --W.marsh 03:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Point of information, it was a Keep No Consensus not a pure keep. Both the close in AfD and the notice on the article talk say Keep No Consensus... ++Lar: t/c 03:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure I don't see anything particularly wrong with it. The article is bare, but this aired on ABC and Lost has lots of viewers. That lends enough notability that it can be mentioned somewhere imo, and AFD is not the best place to decide merging. Kotepho 04:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • comment You're commenting on content, not on process — see above: "Remember that Deletion Review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the (action) specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate." — Mike • 04:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  I did both and there is plenty of commenting on content to go around on DRV. Kotepho 04:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Then I'd ask whatever admin who will review these items and make a decision to ignore your response, given that you're explicitly and self-admittedly not going by WP:DRV policy. — Mike • 04:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: This has also been listed on today's AfD page (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lost: The Journey (second nomination)). As far as I see, there has been no consensus to relist, so I've asked for it to be speedily closed pending the results of this DRV. BryanG^(talk) 04:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete - with all due respect to the closing admin, I reread ArgentiumOutlaw's point on AFD and I do not see what is convincing about it. He points out that the writer did a good job and that mediators are debating what to do with individual episode articles. Well, as to the first point, a "good job" is not a bar to deletion and as to the second point, unless I'm missing something, this is not an episode. For the benefit of those above debating my "merge and delete" vote (opinion, whatever), I didn't say "merge and delete". Please reread my comment. I said "Merge anything useful ... otherwise delete". In other words, "merge OR delete", not "merge AND delete". BigDT 04:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. I, too, fail to see what is so overwhelming about the sole keep vote, and part of the admin's comment -- I'd keep a clip show before a random episode, if I were commenting -- means that a peculiar personal preference was used as part of the reasoning. --Calton | Talk 05:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, solid explanation from closing admin plus the fact that articles of this nature (major television episodes) are generally kept or merged. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist or delete. Only one keep vote, and its reasoning is extremely weak ("this is a well-written article" does not make the topic noteworthy, and "we're still discussing it" does not make it noteworthy either!); yes, admins are expected to use their judgment, not a raw votecount, to determine consensus, but this was a dubious closure.
• I'd have preferred if Lar had voted, rather than closing the discussion, since he clearly had a distinct opinion in his own right which, even if valid, didn't correspond to that of any of the users involved. Too often admins will close Deletion discussions in accordance with however they would have voted, rather than in accordance with the discussion itself. If your interpretation of what should be done with the article is unusual enough that people will be surprised by how you close the discussion, you'd probably be better off joining the discussion, so people can read and respond to your reasoning first, rather than just cutting it off with your opinion as the "last word". -Silence 05:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment There were two points I was making when I voted to Keep. The second point I made was that the article shouldnt have been up for deletion, if you see Requests for mediation, you'll see that there is a mediation committee voting to determine whether or not "Lost episodes each deserve an individual article". If they decide on keeping all episodes in one big article, then the committee will override any AFD decisions made on that one article. Same with the opposite case (ie if they decide every episode deserves a seperate article). Their decision may actually make any decision we reach here useless. Ignoring that, the first reason I gave for keeping, was that I thought the information there was thorough, accurate, and useful. As for the final outcome of keep on the AFD, I personally think we should put aside our "common sense" and go with the majority vote, 'but' through all of my experiences with AFDs and the like, I've realized that in wikipedia votes don't really matter, discussion and consensus determines the victor. I wouldn't dare say that my argument is more sensible than the opposing side because they made an equally legitimate point. So it's really a judgment call on which side brought up the more solid argument. ArgentiumOutlaw 06:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • In the absence of a mediation ruling, you can still preserve the solo article in your user space. In either outcome, you would need to have the information at hand. However, no one part of the deliberative process can overturn another, as they should have different targets. The mediation is about whether in the future/final form, there should be a single or breakout presentation and shouldn't be concerned with "should this particular article be deleted." AfD shouldn't be saying anything much about whether the future should look like X or Y, but rather judging a single article in terms of the deletion policy. I.e. during a mediation, pretty much everything should have gone into a sort of escrow space. Geogre 12:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Delete. Closing comments an absolutely travesty. "We don't nose count" so I'm siding with a minority of one". Ridiculous. -- GWO
• Overturn and Delete - Should have taken part in the discussion rather than just closed with his own saintly admin view. - Hahnchen 09:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. Everyone knows I don't nose-count either, but there was a clear consensus for deletion. It is not the case that the 'merge and delete' and 'transwiki' opinions could count as 'keep'. "Transwiki" means "This shouldn't be on Wikipedia" and "Merge and delete" means "Some of this might belong in the main article but not here", and both amount to "This Wikipedia article should not exist". The sole keep argument wasn't remotely close to being powerful enough to overturn the near-unanimous consensus. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 09:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete as supported by all credible arguments to policy & guidelines in the AfD; transwiki to Lostpedia if GFDL compatibility allows and if they want it. Just zis Guy you know? 12:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Delete Reliance on single keep argument unconvincing Bwithh 12:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Delete I voted to transwiki in the original AfD thinking that it was possible to transwiki to Lostpedia. Apparantly it is not, so you can count my vote as a delete in the original AfD. —Mets501 (talk) 12:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn: Lar was acting within his scope, but my feeling is that the article was weak enough or damaged enough that, at the very least, the article could not exist in that form and at that location and pass peer review in terms of the deletion policy. Sometimes we have to say, "Wikipedians are wrong, but we'll do the delete and work on getting the information presented in a better or more logical way." This would be one of those cases: people voting on AfD could be entirely wrong, but, in the absence of something really crazy, their wrong position should probably prevail. Geogre 12:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Clarification: my vote was the overturn and delete after the article is copied into user space pending the outcome of the mediation. I.e. delete, because AfD was clear, but I recommend that the authors and involved parties hold the material. We had a not dissimilar situation with articles on every cricket match in a year. Geogre 16:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. The closure statement makes clear that, rather than acting within discretion on the merits of the debate, the admin was effectively imposing his own views on it instead. Should have participated in it, in that case. Furthermore, the arguments to delete are easily as compelling as the argument given to keep, and though we don't nose count, we do pay attention to the reasons why a number of people may have reached the same conclusion. I should also say that I don't think a wriggle of "no consensus" applies here. There's an obvious enough consensus among the participants, it's just that the admin didn't like it too much. If Lar wanted to spin the debate his way, he should probably simply have declared a straight "keep". I just discovered from User talk:Lar that Lar discussed this with others in IRC. That's fine, but one should remember that being trendy and brutal and treating AfD as a stupid bunch of idiots is extremely fashionable there, and that decisions made based on who goes "yay" to earn a laugh on IRC are generally decisions made poorly and in haste. -Splash - tk 12:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete, as per Mike and others above. It seems that a consensus in favor of deletion was ingnored. PJM 13:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist on AfD, AfD isn't a straw count and no good reason was advanced for deletion. IMO, closing admin probably did the right thing. Still, retention/deletion could be argued either way... recommend a fresh AfD.--Isotope23 15:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete; I agree with Lar that 1 suggestion can override seven other ones. However, I do not find this particular one convincing at all. - Liberatore(T) 15:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Notice: The article has now substantially been re-written to address the issues it previously had, excising the Original Research, and adding verifiable, sourced content. It is no longer the same article that was AfDed.--Leflyman^Talk 17:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Second War (Harry Potter)

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Second War (Harry Potter)

User:CambridgeBayWeather deleted article Second War (Harry Potter) on the grounds of not going against consensus. I read the arguments and the most prominent one was that the imformation can be found on other characters' biographic articles. While that is true, a through article on the history of the First and Second War of the Potter series is appropriate, if not essential, since the overlying plot of the series deals with Voldemort against the rest of the Wizarding world. In books five and six in particular, where the Second War begins and continues, two battles occur that will have continued ramifications to the last book to be released next year. A record of this entire episode I think would be appropriate to cite all further development to come and expand once the series is complete. User:Throw

• Having read all the Potter books multiple times, I recall no reference to a "second war". Perhaps you could cite the page numbers where it is referred to as such? Just zis Guy you know? 12:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Last chapter of OOTP is titled "The Second War Begins". Regards, MartinRe 12:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Oh, wow, so we have a whole article based essentially on a throwaway line? None of the characters refer to the "war", "first war" or "second war" do they? Just zis Guy you know? 12:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. Nothing out of process here. It was deleted through AfD on the 9th, then reposted and deleted on the 13th. To see what the 1st War and 2nd War articles look like, see User:Fbv65edel/Keep!. Metros232 12:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. (after edit conflict) Looks like a valid AfD with reasonable arguments and very strong consensus. CambridgeBayWeather deleted it as recreation of a deleted article. -- SCZenz 12:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion valid afd, hence valid g4 Regards, MartinRe 12:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion, per above. PJM
• Endorse deletion, absolutely lawful deletion. MaxSem 15:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion Valid afd. OhNoitsJamie^Talk 18:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion per all. Disclosure: I am the AfD nominator. Note to Throw: this stuff will all be moved to Wikibooks by User:Fbv65edel. Work on it there instead. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 20:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. User:Throw copied and pasted everything on User:Fbv65edel/Keep! and pasted it to his/her own user page. Is that okay or not under the GFDL? It doesn't preserve the history and contributions since he did it in one fell swoop. The same goes for Fbv65edel's subpage which seems to be just copied and pasted too. Metros232 03:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That violates GFDL. I've left a note on User talk:Fbv65edel that if they want the content for private use in preparing other content I or another admin will fish it out for them; meanwhile I'm afraid I call that a copyvio. Just zis Guy you know? 15:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

13 June 2006

User:Dtm142/User no evil boxes and Template:User Gangster

These were both deleted out of process by Drini. They were taken to tfd, but had a keep consensus and were closed. He claims to have deleted it because he followed the official policy, but it doesn't meet the Deletion policy. See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 June 4 and Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 June 5. No evil boxes was also closed because of defective listing. See this edit. They do not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, and the debates both resulted in a keep. Dtm142 22:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

as my comments were requested. I did quote policy and followed it. -- Drini 19:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Further explanation. There are some policies that are more fundamental than others (recall the five pillars) ? I followed them and thus I stand that I didn't act out of policy. If the lower policies are in contradiction with the fundamental ones, the fundamental ones take precedence.-- Drini 20:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

To which fundamental policy do you refer? Be specific, please; I'm not a mind reader, and could not locate where you quoted policy in the deletion for the second (the deletion log just says "tfd"). Jay Maynard 22:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 June 4. He quoted the policies there. Reguardless, it was out of process. Dtm142 22:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

We're trying to end this userbox war with a community compromise, not have you look for reasons to delete stuff. If it doesn't meet the speedy deletion criteria or deletion policy, it doesn't get deleted. Dtm142 22:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete on the first and put the 2nd one up for user space adoption by someone who was linking to it. Here we go again. Guess I was a fool to hope that WP:GUS would calm the deletionists down. --StuffOfInterest 22:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and MfD the first because it had two parallel reviews going on on separate MfD dates. The closing admin for the June 5 version (Xoloz) attempted to close both as an unsalvagable mess, but somehow that closure became disassociated with the June 4 review. The June 5 closure contained an explicit note that keep was the likely result of a clean nomination and review. Having two simultateous reviews with opposite conclusions is reason enough to send it back for a single combined review, having two closures with opposite conclusions for a single review is also enough to send it back, and we have both here.. Overturn, undelete, and leave alone for the second, because it has survived two separate TfD reviews in the past month. (See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 May 24 for the first TfD discussion, which was referenced in the second.) GRBerry 22:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Endorse for the second, when I tried to multi-task I got it wrong. The closers rationale isn't enough reason to prevent WP:GUS, but the argument by Nhprman was a better argument for deletion than any of the keep arguments (as the prior TfD closed with no consensus rather than a clear keep consensus). GRBerry 23:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete. Weren't we just here? Why are admins trying to torpedo the German userbox solution?? Jay Maynard 22:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • ...and, yes, I'll support move User Gangster to userspace, per WP:GUS. Jay Maynard 00:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete both, move User Gangster to userspace per WP:GUS. We try to navigate out of the userbox mess and to find a compromise (following Jimbo's suggestion) when suddendly some admins start torpedoing the entire effort. CharonX/talk 23:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete follow the German solution (supported by Jimbo as compromise). No reason for the deletion as they don't meet T1. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 00:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• undelete both of these please find a better compramise Yuckfoo 01:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete both and move the second to user space, per WP:GUS —Mira 02:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• The former was already in userspace. Dtm142 02:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, I know. I said move the second one to user space. —Mira 02:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep deleted No evil. T1/G4 (Tony Sidaway). Kotepho 02:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  G4 does not apply for recreating a deleted userbox in userspace. T1 does not apply in userspace. Dtm142 03:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  1) Yes, it does. Read the rfar. 2) Yes, it does. This is a logical extention of the rfar. (If something is inappropriate enough that if it was deleted in Template: it should not be recreated in User:, anything that would meet said criteria would still be inappropriate in User: even had it not been deleted in Template: previously.) Saying "no it doesn't" is not going to convince anyone and it does not make it true. Kotepho 03:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete and deal with per WP:GUS. Kotepho, I wouldn't argue that these boxes can't be speedied - they certainly can - but I would argue that they shouldn't be, if the goal is to end the userbox controversy with a minimum of collateral damage. -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  Changing my vote to relist on MfD for the first and endorse deletion for the second. I should have looked more carefully at first; what a crap box. Thanks Kimchi.sg, for caling attention to that. I'd vote to delete either on MfD or TfD, but only the first one deserves its week there. Refraining from speedying all but the most egregious boxes would be a great good-faith gesture on the part of userbox deletionists. The gangster box though, really has no redeeming value. -GTBacchus^(talk) 07:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Let me just say ... oh thank god I don't care about this shit anymore. It's sooooo much more relaxing. Ohh, you all should try it, I'm in heaven over here. --Cyde↔Weys 03:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Undelete both, and Userfy the second one per WP:GUS. jgp 04:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first, WP:GUS Relist (TfD) the second one, and Remove Drini's admin rights for a week or two while we implement WP:GUS. _{No offense meant, Drini.} —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 07:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem I'm used to people calling for admins desysopping for doing The Right Thing (TM) and following policy.

• Question. Does T1 apply in userspace or not? I'm seeing conflicting opinions on that issue. Anyone care to back theirs up with a link? Either way, T1 doesn't apply to the first one at all. —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 07:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  There are different 'interpretations'. T1 became policy without sitting through the normal proposal and consensus procedures because it was endorsed by Jimbo. Jimbo has repeatedly said that the 'problem' is that things in the template namespace might be considered to be 'supported' by Wikimedia, and thus userboxes stating a disputed viewpoint should be moved to user space. Since 'T1' became policy because Jimbo said it should I don't see how it can be 're-interpreted' to mean something directly contradictory to Jimbo's position and still retain it's validity as a policy. The alternate view is apparently that you cannot transclude disputed viewpoints... you can have them directly on your user page, but not transcluded in from a sub-page in user space or anywhere else. This is based on an interpretation of the word 'template' in T1 being meant to cover 'anything transcluded' rather than 'things in the Template: namespace' as Jimbo has advocated. But then, Jimbo also said, "don't go on any sprees deleting", and we've seen how well some people listened to that. --CBDunkerson 16:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete. MaxSem 06:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist the first on MfD and keep deleted and prohibit userspace creation of Template:Gangster. "This user is a gangster" is a statement which has strong intimidating overtones (unlike "This user is a homosexual" or even "This user hates the EFF") and I would protest even if one were to just write it on his user page in plain form. Template:Gangster goes beyond the acceptable bounds of good taste and should not be retained even in user space. Kimchi.sg 06:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  Which policy, aside from T1 or G4, does the second violate? If there's something besides those two, then I'll support deleting it. Jay Maynard 12:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete per above.  Grue  06:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy undelete first, germanize gangster and be done with it. Misza13 ^{T C} 08:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first. Keep the second deleted - the second one was in template space and was fair game for deletion. If someone wants to userfy it they should feel free to do so. There are admins who will assist. Metamagician3000 11:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first per WP:GUS, Endorse deletion the 2nd. Gangster template is simply unacceptable. --WinHunter ^(talk) 11:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first and Userify the second per WP:DEUTSCH. — CJewell (talk to me) 14:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - Deletions were out of process and contradictory to apparent consensus at TfD/MfD. Seemingly no applicable policy for deletion. --CBDunkerson 16:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and userfy if necessary. Nobody who has been paying attention here would have expected these speedies to go unchallenged - and thus they were improper speedy deletions. Please remember --Speedy Deletion is not a Toy 22:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

for the record, it wasn't a speedy deletion (if you look at that definition) it was just a normal deletion, where I applied fundamental policies to close a TFD. Can people stop callign this a speedy? Nowadays people just like to say it without stopping to consider that. For it to have been a speedy, I would have to delete on sight as I saw it withouth doing the whole TFD thing. 00:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It was an out of process deletion. They were already closed with a keep consensus and a defective listing before you closed them again and deleted them. Fundamental policies can be referenced during a tfd, but to determine the outcome, you look at what the community says and the deletion policies. I don't care if you delete it if it goes through an mfd with a delete consensus. Dtm142 01:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Any deletion which does not come as the result of an unchallenged 'prod' or consensus in a delete discussion is, by default, a 'speedy' delete... taken solely on the perogative of the admin performing the deletion without implied (per 'prod') or direct (per '*fD') consensus. As to your citation of the pillars - your action violates pillar four for certain (acting directly contrary to consensus is not 'cooperative') and is as much against pillar one (in that starting pointless fights over window dressing disrupts building the encyclopedia) as for it (in that the boxes in question did not build the encyclopedia). --CBD 10:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete 1st & Userify 2nd as mentioned a few times. --Scandalous 02:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and Userfy as per what Jimbo says is reasonable about the German solution. The idea that Drini could close so many TfD's with a generic closing message about the five pillars when really they were not for one, all relevant, and two, all followed by the action. Ansell 11:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

IRCDig

This article was deleted due to notability claims that were false. IRCDig is just as notable, if not more notable than most torrent search engine articles wikipedia decides to keep. The deletion discussion was split amongst keep and delete votes. The article followed all criteria for a valid article and then some. This article was incorrectly afd'd and should be re-instated. The supporters of deletion argued that the author was the only one that had contributed to the article but what they failed to realize was that the article was only like a week old. LOL... I discovered it when it was in it's afd discussion and contributed a keep vote and would have contributed to the article if I would have had time to see it. KernelPanic 17:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• AfD here. Whether the website is truly notable or not, this is a textbook proper close. Endorse closure unless notability can be accurately verified. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • And what is the official wikipedia process for verifying notability? You say it was a text book closure whether the site is notable or not then you say you endorse the closure until the notability can be accurately verified? Which one is it? If wikipedia is going to allow it's admins to delete articles due to notability then there needs to be a clear and concise process for verifying notability. Until this happens, it is completely open to personal interpretation, which is ALWAYS going to be a mistake due to personal biases. KernelPanic 19:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Not "until," "unless." I'll gladly petition to overturn the closure if you can provide some sort of evidence that this is a notable thing. The "admins" didn't delete this, as much as a consensus by a not-insignificant number of fellow editors felt deletion was the correct path, and no claim was made by you or the other editor stating keep to make any sort of notability evident. I'm one of the most inclusive editors on here, and I'm not even convinced that this program is worth an article at this stage. Seriously, prove me wrong and I change my view. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. Show us how it meets the standards of WP:WEB "the official wikipedia process for verifying notability" as you requested. This means independent news coverage and/or awards for the site. Lots of Google hits does not make something notable. My username gets 13,300 hits...am I notable? Metros232 19:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • In the same respect, using Alexa as a source of showing something as being not notable is not an accurate method either, which is what the afd argument was based on. There are numerous articles about ircdig and numerous other discussions on independant news groups, message boards, etc. You can use the very same google search you condemned to find these artcles. I agree that the amount of information that google has indexed on a particular thing does not make it notable, but I would say that over 3000 uniques a day from over 115 different countries does. Was this article really clutterinh up wikipedia so much, or offending other editors so much that it just had to be removed? wikipedia has become a joke. Now I know why so many people talk trash about it. It is full of a bunch of immature kids who like to try and use their so called "power" to dictate what articles say and what articles even exist. Keep it deleted if it makes you that happy. It is not even worth the argument anymore. The owner of ircdig told me that he only received like 2 or 3 hits a day from the article anyway. Maybe wikipedia is not that notable in the end. Maybe you should delete your entire site according to your own regulations. The only press I see about wikipedia is negative press (Criticism of Wikipedia). Does that make it notable? KernelPanic 19:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Lately all the press that George W. Bush gets is negative, is he still notable? :) And to think, I'm a Republican and yet I make that kinda statement. None of the Google hits I see are news articles. This is the closest [5]. There's also one that's a press release from IRCDig. The first one is not a reliable source and press releases don't count for notability.

The owner of ircdig told me that he only received like 2 or 3 hits a day from the article anyway. Maybe wikipedia is not that notable in the end.

Or could it be that no one's looking for the article because it's not notable? The amount of hits he gets on his site from our article matters so little to our consideration of whether or not to keep an article since we're not a source of advertisement for websites. Metros232 19:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. Relisting to generate more discussion would have been a viable alternative, but the two keep commentators both are new enough contributors and had weak enough points that ignoring their presence is a reasonable decision on the part of the closing admin. Nothing in the AfD or the discussion above asserts that the article met WP:WEB, the topic specific notability guideline. The bit about "only received like 2 or 3 hits a day from the article" indicates that the article was viewed as an advertisement. Advertisements are a direct violation of Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a section of one of the basic policies. As to the other torrent sites, if they are truly not worthy of being kept, their articles will go to eventually. No hurry, but consistency is not required, and taking our time has benefits. GRBerry 20:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse Closure Properly closed, did not assert notability. -M^ask 20:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. No evidence of notability, and the fact of an article not being advertising is not sufficient grounds to keep it when there is clearly not enough reliable external coverage to ensure neutrality. Just zis Guy you know? 20:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. Nothing was previously said that made it convincing that the site has any notabilility at all, and nothing has yet been added. The AfD's closure was within normal procedure. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 00:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse close, as there is no significant new information to overturn previous consensus at the AFD. Titoxd^(?!?) 00:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Mending Wall

This discussion was finished rather buptly mid-debate. The problem is that many are misunderstanding the copyright law, confused by a badly worded WP policy. There is a differnece between the copyright on an imprint and the copyright on he content. This poem (which is substantially quoted from) remains within copyright until 70 years after teh death of teh author - it is only a particular imprint of it that can go out of copyright before that. The poem's inculsion on Wikisource and the large quote on WP break copyright. If the WP policy is wrong/badly worded it needs to be changed. WP and WS are currently breaking copyright - and I suspect on several other copyright pieces too. Robertsteadman 16:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I did close the debate a few hours early on three grounds: 1.) There was a consensus to keep, unlikely to change; 2.) the poem is extraordinarily well-known in the US, and is regularly taught in high-school English classes across the country (how do I know? Why, I come from a loooong line of English teachers from all across the country, really) 3.) As I explained to Mr. Steadman at his talk, his understanding of copyright law is incorrect (for which, see his talk page.)

If I wanted to, I could simply say that I ignored opinions known to be in error, and found the debate unanimous. Really, though, even taking Steadman's criticisms at their face-value, there was a consensus to keep -- the discussion to remove the poem's text is editorial, as it is already transwikied. Xoloz 16:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid that your assertion about copyright is incorrect. Copyright on artistic works, in Europe and the US, last for 70 years after teh death oif the authjor and the date of publication is irrelvant. To have such a substantial quote from the poem, at best, stretchs the law and, in my opinion, is a breach of copyright. Certainly the wikisource full use is illegal. I'd love to see a citation for the "extremely well known"-nbess of the poem. One phrase may be well known - in which case the article should be about the phrase not the poem. The only reason the debate wasn't going to change is becaiuse (a) it wasn't given the chance to and (b) false informnation about the notability of the poem and the copyright situaton swayed people. A very sad state of affairs when WP admins are allowing WP to break the law. Robertsteadman 17:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Mr Steadman, you correctly state US law as it applies today to items published today. Historically, prior to a series of treaties throughout the 1980's, the US law did not give a whit for the author's lifetime. All of this is recounted in full detail at the US Copyright Law article. The newer laws now in force do not apply to Mending Wall, because by the time of their active date, its copyright had already lapsed under the old law. It is unfortunate that you refuse to relent in falsing suggesting Wikipedia is a violating the law. Discerning the copyright of works published in the US between 1923 and 1978 is a confusing process, by reason of the changing law, and occupies an entire course in modern American law school curriculum. Prior to 1923, all published works in the US, by necessity of the operation of law in effect at the time, had their copyrights lapse prior to the enactment of current law. Since my word, and the sources at the WP article, do not convince you, I suggest you take this matter up with Foundation lawyer User:Brad Patrick. He will tell you what I have, in much better detail than I can (since intellectual property is not my area of daily practice): you are incorrect, and WP is within the law. I respect your right to disagree, however wrong you are; but please refrain from suggesting that Wikipedia is breaking the law, for its counsel is very bright, and it is well within the law. Xoloz 18:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

As for notability, the mere fact it is a Robert Frost poem justifies a stub's existence, but I can have references for you shortly.

• Endorse closure. Take to copyright problems if you really think it's a problem, I accept the evidence above that it is not. I am compelled to wonder once again if User:Robertsteadman and User:Robsteadman are related. Just zis Guy you know? 20:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. If it was in fact published in 1914, there is no problem. See, among other sources, UPenn's guide here. By the way, was I the only one who thought of this poem when senator Jeff Sessions said, with regard to plans to build five hundred or so miles of Berlin-Wall-like fencing,"Good fences make good neighbors, fences don't make bad neighbors?" Ignoring, of course, the point that there's a difference between a co-operative fence maintained jointly by two neighbors and a unilateral fence... Unless I'm missing something, Mexico isn't offering to pay for half of this border fence. But I digress. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. Even if User:Robertsteadman were correct in saying that the poem was still subject to copyright, we could just revert the article to a non-infringing version. And if the poem is in the public domain, we don't have a problem at all. --Metropolitan90 01:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment The ever-amazing BD2412, who does IP for a living, quickly cited this source, a current US government circular, which plainly lays that issue to rest. Praise BD! Xoloz 06:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse: AfD and DRV are not the proper venues for changing Wikipedia's general understanding of copyright. The poem is, of course, very well known and is, in fact, one of those poems that people who don't know poetry will have read (because they were forced to). Now, don't ask me how I loathe Robert Frost, but don't ask me to want the article deleted because one person thinks the whole project's vision of copyright should yield to his own. Geogre 12:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. If we're all wrong about the copyright status of this poem, and Project Gutenberg is too, I think the only recourse Mr. Steadman has is to Foundation legal counsel, as Xoloz suggests. Alleged non-notability is not a good reason to bring this article here; there were arguments made on both sides at the AfD, and there was no consensus to delete. I am very much hoping this is the last I see of this issue. -- SCZenz 12:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse - how on earth did anyone even consider deleting an article about what is by common knowledge one of the most famous modern poems in the English language? Metamagician3000 04:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Saryn Hooks

Article was AfD'd today, and deleted speedily per A7 after only three votes. Article certainly asserts notability, and frankly, I would have voted Keep.

Content was, more or less, "Saryn Hooks, of Taylorsville,North Carolina, placed third in the Scripps Howard National Spelling Bee. She was reinstated after the judges realized they had the incorrect spelling of hechsher. She is fourteen years old and hopes to become a doctor."

Recommend undeletion and relisting at AfD. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 15:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Abstain for the moment. Coming third in a spelling bee is certainly not an impressive claim of notability. The judges got her word wrong? Woop de do, I don't think that'll be up there with the Mano de Dios in the Top 100 Shocking Sporting Moments on Channel 4. However, I'm not quite prepared to say that this should be snowballed, hence the abstention. It wouldn't have killed anyone to let this run its course. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 15:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Couldn't this detail simply be merged into the article for the Scripps Howard National Spelling Bee as a bit of interesting trivia? --StuffOfInterest 15:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Because it's not very interesting? If it had affected the outcome of the game it would be important, but the girl went out anyway. Looking at the article, I don't see anywhere obvious to insert a mention, and it seems like a very inconsequential thing to start a new '==Trvia==' section with. But if you can do better than I, you don't have to wait for the article to be undeleted to edit the Scripps Howard National Spelling Bee article. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 15:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Technically, any subject could be merged into another article as a short blurb rather than a real article, but that doesn't really do us justice. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and complete AFD The reinstatement is also an assertion of notability. How often does a reinstatement occur? Without knowing this, which only an AFD discussion can address, we can't tell if there is notability. GRBerry 15:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Why go to lengths - participation and high placement themselves are assertions of notability! - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 15:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn, undelete, reopen AFD A claim of notability necessitates an AFD. --Rob 15:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist, certainly not an A7. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. It's not fair for me to vote since I deleted it, but I just wanted to say that this met speedy deletion criteria in my view. I am not opposed to letting the AFD run its course if that is the outcome of this review.--Kungfu Adam ^(talk) 15:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist per nom. BoojiBoy 18:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist per nominator. Silensor 19:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Reviewing the articles on some of the winners of this competition, they would be far better combined a single article (and this one with them). Unless and until they achieve some lasting notability, an article which says that X attended foo school, won a spelling bee one year, and since then has not been mentioned in any reliable sources, would be a clear and unambiguous delete for any adult. I can't believe we're even considering keeping an article on someone whose sole claim to fame is that they came third. Come on, people! The reliable sources contain maybe two facts: the competition and the school. Just zis Guy you know? 20:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • So, would you delete athletes who are "only" third-best in the country, as well? Or do you have separate standards for mental competitions versus physical ones? --Rob 19:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
    • If they are only the third best according to the results of a single competition, yes. Think about this logically for a moment: how much verifiable biographical data is there for these people outside of the single fact of their having taken part in a single competition? I have nothing against a brief note in the article on the competition, that makes good sense, but what you appear to be arguing for here is an article whiech will, most likely in perpetuity, say that this person came third ina competition once. You think that's enough to base a biography on? You think that establishes encyclopaedic notability? This is well below the level of attention given to losing candidates in elections, who by common consent do not get articles unless they are independently notable. I'd say the same applies: if these people have some independent and objective claim to notability per WP:BIO then by all means give them articles, but otherwise list them in a single article and if you think its likely anyone but their mother will search for them by name then add a redirect. Just zis Guy you know? 12:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I'm glad we agree on using logic and WP:BIO, which states "The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person". So, clearly she either meets that standard, or is at least close enough, to warrant a proper AFD discussion. I'm glad you do apply the same standard to athletes, but since you appear opposed to existing WP:BIO rules for athletes, you should really take that up on the talk page of WP:BIO. You're applying rules on biographies that aren't mentioned in WP:BIO. As for elections: we we include all members of the federal and state legislatures. That's thousands of people for some countries. That includes third-party back-benchers in legislatures/parliaments with a majority government. Look at music: you just have to have a charted hit. It doesn't have to be #1. So, generally we go well, well beyond "top 3" in most areas. --Rob 16:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted as per Just zis Guy above. Arguments that a third place contestant in a spelling bee deserves their own article are totally beyond me Bwithh 22:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Just want to make sure you two brits realize that the Scripps-Howard Spelling Bee is a nationally-covered event, televised live nationwide by ESPN, the premier sports channel in the United States. It gets front page treatment in the press every year, it's a big deal - not just a bee at a school. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 23:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this Brit has been living in the US since 2001. Bwithh 01:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• • • Actually, it even went one step further this year and was broadcast in primetime on ABC. Metros232 23:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • it was also simulcast in hdtv on 2 different networks so erasing this makes no sense at all. Yuckfoo 01:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• undelete this please a mistake was made here so fix it Yuckfoo 01:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, per JZG & Bwithh. Despite popular opinion, I don't see how finishing 3rd in this event is notable. It didn't even strike me as a proper assertion of notability. PJM 02:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• This one is difficult. The result of any AfD debate should be really, really, really obvious: merge the article and create a redirect to the spelling bee. Yes, the young lady was in the news because of the scandal of the judges getting it wrong and a competitor correcting them (and thus reinstating the girl). Further, she was being followed around by cameras and is very photogenic. If this were AfD, I'd say "Merge and redirect": she hasn't been alive long enough to have a biography or done anything, yet. That said, this isn't AfD, so I suppose I have to put my faith in the demos and say...I hate doing this...overturn and finish the AfD. Geogre 12:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Deleted per JzG. Eusebeus 15:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist. I don't think the subject is notable, and I think the article should be deleted, but it should be deleted through the proper AfD process. There is an assertion of notability, so a speedy is inappropriate. jgp (T|C) 15:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist While I would probably vote delete on the afd, technically it should be relisted since there is at least a debatable claim to notability. OhNoitsJamie^Talk 18:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion per JzG. However, I'd support history undeletion if if the content of this article is merged into the article about the competition and then turned into a redirect. - Liberatore(T) 15:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Reopen AfD I'm not sure of the actual bio, but I have to question the speedy. Yanksox ^(talk) 16:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

12 June 2006

User:Winhunter/Userboxes/EFF and User:Winhunter/Userboxes/No-CCP

This user is opposed to online censorship.

This user opposes the Chinese Communist Party.

Both userboxes are in the userspace according to the German Userbox solution, but an admin deleted both of them, saying "T1 deletion as per CSD and Tony Sidaway arbcom case." in the deletion log. I do not believe speedy deletion would apply on userboxes in userspace in these two uesrboxes, especially when there are consensus on German Userbox Solution. --WinHunter^(talk) 02:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete and list at MfD - I think these userboxes must necessarily be deleted at MfD, but I think that, in this case, it's worth it to go back and list them there. Other opponents of userboxes, please consider my reasons. (I'm the same one who's argued passionately against not digging up the dead to rebury them.) We have a choice right now: we may start another userbox brouhaha, or not. Let's choose not to. Let's be smart about it this time, and do what Jimbo actually suggested. Once the boxes are in userspace, let's use reason and dialogue to explain why they're a bad idea. Let's do that by taking them to MfD for deletion instead of speedying them, and creating the conditions for much more congenial discussion, where explanation and development of reasons can actually go on in more cooperative spirit. Let's not ruffle feathers with speedy deletions, and then try to have that same conversation at DRV, where it's much more difficult on account of people being upset, and the constant drive to not talk about the content being deleted, but the validity of the deletion instead. This is a crappy place for the conversation to happen. We're not required to speedy polemical pages in user-space. We are free to apply the "if it walks like a template" criterion, or not. Please consider that we can do this encyclopedia a greater service by being a little more slow and deliberate about dealing with the userbox problem. -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and list at MfD - I dislike these 2 boxes but am convinced by GTBacchus' points. Kimchi.sg 03:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn, undelete, and send to MfD Case 1: EFF box. It is anything but obvious that this is inflammatory. It is anything but obvious that this is divisive. Heck, Wikipedia, by policy, is not censored. If there is anyplace that this should not be divisive, it is Wikipedia. This one looks like a clearly erroneous speedy deletion, and possibly should just be overturned without sending it to MfD, as I think a keep outcome is the appropriate MfD result. Case 2: Opposes CCP box. Better addressed on MfD than via a speedy deletion, as per GTBachus' argument above. The inflammatory case is debatable, given that the CCP already attempts to ban the citizens of mainland China from seeing Wikipedia, and that those who circumvent the firewall are unlikely to be the CCP's strongest supporters. GRBerry 03:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• I do not believe endless TFDs, MFDs, and DRVs are the correct way to resolve this issue. I think it's time to try the final step in dispute resolution. --Cyde↔Weys 03:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Which is...? If it's "take it to someone who can set binding policy", I agree with you. Jay Maynard 12:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• ArbCom is the final step of dispute resolution. --Cyde↔Weys 19:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep deleted These fall under T1. T1 applies to userspace templates still. Would it be better to delete these through TFD or MFD? I believe so, but they have shown that they do not produce correct results w.r.t. to policy. Process is only important if it works. Kotepho 03:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is not democracy. Why are MfDs closed against policy just because the numbers say so? -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I don't know. Why are Gay Nigger Association of America and The Game (game) still around? Their sources are certainly scant.

  I do want to echo your request that userboxes in User: should be taken to *FD instead of speedied in most cases, but the debates need to be closed on their merits instead of numbers. That is not to say that all templates in user space should be taken to *FD--as many are fine in user space--but there are still templates that are so odious that they must be deleted from user space also. I believe that "user against $POLITICAL_PARTY" falls under such a condition, even if I happen to agree with that position. The EFF box is a bit different--enough that it probably should be discussed seperately. "This user supports the EFF" is something that I believe is inappropriate, but not so much that it needs to be deleted immediately. In its current form I believe that T1 is applicable. Kotepho 04:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  It is in userspace, what do you think about this? Jimbo on Userboxes --WinHunter ^(talk) 04:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  The problem with userboxes is that people really really ought not to be using their user pages to advocate for or against green energy or anyone else. - Jimbo Wales I like it a lot. I would add this bit though. I am not doing anything about it just yet, but I am willing to concede that my nonviolent social request that people knock it off and think about what it means to be a Wikipedian has not gotten very far.[6] On "it is in userspace": I have no idea what you are replying to, as no one disputes that. Kotepho 05:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I am reasonably certain that Winhunter was referring to this quote: [7] (too long to copy). It is, after all, the one he linked to. —Mira 08:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  This one [8] too, actually. —Mira 08:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  There would still be restrictions on the range of possible userboxes... from the first diff, and I already quoted from the second diff? The middle ground is to let people do as they will in the user space, and merely use reason and argument to teach people over time why one ought not use Wikipedia userpages for political or other campaigns.... while at the same time saying, no, really, the template namespace is not for that, that we do not endorse this behavior. This is the solution that the Germans have put into effect with great results. Personally, I'm not a big fan of people using their user pages (or editing the encyclopedia) to advocate their points of view (and Jimbo agrees). How are these boxes anything other than that? Notice how Jimbo doesn't say "Oh I think that is fine", he says "this might work for now, but try and talk some sense into them". Talking hasn't worked; and most of these comment are from months ago. On the issue of substed versus transcluded in userspace, it is not a distinction without a difference. Kotepho 09:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I haven't seen talking given much of a chance to work. I've seen people try to bypass talking, by just deleting a bunch of boxes repeatedly, and creating conditions for people to feel they're being attacked. -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete and relist at MFD agree with GTBacchus. The speedy deletion of userboxes has been far more divisive than any userbox could ever be. —Mira 05:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and undelete Nothing wrong with either these userboxes or WP:GUS. jgp 07:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete User space is sacred territory!  Grue  07:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep both deleted. First one is merely unnecessary, second is a childish attempt to piss off the editors you're supposed to be writing an encyclopaedia with. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Question. How is the second one going to piss anyone off? Wikipedia is banned where anyone would actually support the Chinese communist party, because of the chinese communist party. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 17:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Userspace is not sacred, and must follow policy like anywhere else. --Improv 08:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - Userspace is absolutely fine for userboxes. I don't use them, but I had asked Tony Sidaway about them at User_talk:Tony_Sidaway#Random_Userbox_question. He seemed to think they were OK in the userspace, and I disagree that a T1 CSD criterion can apply to the userspace. Because if we can apply other CSD criterion to the user space, then we should delete a crapload of nn-bios and nonsense right now. - Hahnchen 08:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • If it looks like a duck, and transcludes like a duck, and quacks "Hey you! Your government and your political opinions are evil! By the way, would you like to write an encyclopaedia with me?" like a duck, it's probably a duck and therefore subject to criterion for speedy roasting T1. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Why are these boxes being treated differently to anything else on the user page? Are we no longer allowed to write down out beliefs on our userpage? If I write on my userpage "Evolution is fact", it's OK? But if I put it into a box, it's crossing some kind of line? If so, I seriously suggest we start at User:SPUI and work on from there. - Hahnchen 09:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I have no problems with people wrting down their beliefs on their userpage within reason, I do have a problem with encouraging others to write down the same beliefs by handing out bumper stickers. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 11:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  If you know of any recreated deleted articles being used in userspace as they would be in article space (i.e. inside article categories and/or linked from article space) please remove such links/cats, tag it g4, or bring it to mfd. Kotepho 09:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Naturally, categorisation or crosslinking from the mainspace to the userspace should not be allowed. I myself have made this error when working on new articles in my userspace. However, the relevance to this conversation seems very little. Many times I have seen 'Userfy' used in deletion discussions, so recreations in the userspace aren't entirely g4 material. - Hahnchen 09:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Of course it does not apply to all templates, but ones that are divisive and inflammatory are fair game even in user space. Examples of such happening would be User Anti-UN and User Anti-ACLU. How is No-CCP significantly different? Kotepho 10:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete. POV userboxes but in userspace, which is what the German solution calls for. We have generally granted wide latitude in that area, including clear biases. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete. The whole idea of WP:TGS is to take forward Jimbo's endorsement of how userboxes are handled on the German Wikipedia. He has said that POV should be allowed in user space far beyond what is allowed in template space. Also, I'm strongly against extending T1 to user space. Show me the policy discussion covering that interpretation, please. --StuffOfInterest 10:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete. If I may quote Jimbo's suggestion regarding the failed UPP proposal: "The text of WP:UPP is filled with what one can and cannot say, specifically, All userbox templates that show a POV or are not directly related to wikipedia will be deleted after a period of time. Note that a user subpage that is transcluded without substitution by multiple users is considered a 'template'. This is like saying, "You may have pamphlets, but you may not mechanically print and distribute them. This is not an infringement of free speech". To put it kindly, this is counter-intuitive." CharonX/talk 11:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - The stated reason that a user-page comment to the effect of, 'I hate people with mauve skin' inside a rectangle has not been allowed while 'I hate people with mauve skin' outside a rectangle has been allowed was that the 'rectangle version' has traditionally been coming from 'Template space' and might therefor theoretically be taken to imply that Wikimedia encourages or tolerates the hating of people with mauve skin... while the 'not in a rectangle version' has traditionally been coming from 'User space' wherein it is more clearly the statement of the individual user(s). Ergo, if a disputed viewpoint resides entirely in user space it does not fall under the stated reason for removal of such from template space... whether it is enclosed in a rectangle or not. Does that make the hating of mauve people a good thing which we should encourage? Of course not, but to date we haven't taken the position that we can (or should) police the content of all userpages to remove any disputed viewpoints. If someone writes on their user page, 'I am gay and have been married to my partner for three years now' we do not remove it on the grounds that 'gay marriage is divisive' yet now some are saying that we should. If people really want to broaden this to a discussion of sanitizing the user space (not just template space) of all disputed beliefs then they need to make a case for that... but until then there are no grounds to do so for bits and pieces of user space - whether they are enclosed in rectangles or not. There have been decisions against the use of the template namespace for disputed viewpoints... not the use of rectangles. --CBDunkerson 11:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  No one is saying that you cannot use rectangles; they are saying you cannot use templates. The definition of a template is not "stuff in Template:". See also Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Tony Sidaway. Kotepho 11:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  See the quote from Jimbo that CharonX included above...he seems to disagree specifically with your argument. Jay Maynard 12:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I disagree. You are apparently defining 'template' as 'anything which is transcluded'. That is not stated in the arbcom case you cite and is not consistent with Jimbo's statements about why T1 was created and what kinds of transclusion are acceptable:

  "Suppose we omit the bit about [disallowing] user subpages transcluded without substitution? If we do that, then a certain amount of userboxing can go on no problem, but outside the officially sanctioned spaces. This respects our long tradition of allowing wide latitude on userspace stuff, while at the same time keeping these userboxes out of officially sanctioned areas which would suggest to new users that this is an official thing that one ought to be doing. There would still be restrictions on the range of possible userboxes, of course, but this is not different from the restriction on all manner of things people might put on their userpages already."

  The T1 criteria was created to address Jimbo's concerns (and those of others) about templates (by which I mean 'things in the template namespace') possibly giving the impression that a view was supported by Wikimedia. Above Jimbo makes a clear distinction that transcluded pages from the template and other 'official' namespaces need to be kept free of divisive statements, but transcluded user pages should be treated like any other user page content - where we have long allowed much wider lattitude since they do not reflect on Wikimedia. --CBDunkerson 12:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  What is not clear about "...or a userfied copy of a deleted template that is used on pages other than those of its owner..." (Principle 2)? Is this not a userfied copy of a deleted template that is used on pages other than those of its owner? Deleted, check; userfied, check; used on pages other than those of it's owner, check.

  Also--amazingly enough--everything Jimbo says on a random talk page is not ex cathedra; there is a difference between Jimbo's opinion and Jimbo's decrees. Kotepho 12:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Lots of stuff Jimbo has said on random talk pages is being taken ex cathedra. If the statements that he's made that the anti-userbox faction likes count, so do the statements the anti-userbox faction doesn't like. Jay Maynard 12:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Are you saying that users are responsible for transclusions by others of their subpages? --SPUI (T - C) 15:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  While I don't think you were being serious, it only took about a minute to make a subpage only transclude properly for me. If the template isn't horrible you could always subst the others or duplicate copies for everyone instead of deleting it. Kotepho 10:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  When we reach the point that the T1 CSD is re-written to directly contradict the person who is directly responsible for its existence there is a problem. T1 was implemented spontaneously, without any normal approval process, to fill a need specified by Jimbo. Re-interpreting T1 to directly contradict Jimbo's position on this issue would invalidate it's entire basis for existence. As to the ArbCom principle you cite (I was looking for a definition of 'template' consistent with yours)... it deals with attempts to circumvent deletion of unacceptable content by relocating it. It does not address the different standards between what is acceptable in the template namespace and what is acceptable in the user namespace. If something was deleted because it is unacceptable anywhere on Wikipedia then moving it to the user space is no improvement, but if something was deleted because it was unacceptable in the template namespace (the meaning of T1 actually espoused by the person responsible for its existence), but would be acceptable in the user space, then I don't see a problem with its recreation. Just as the 'non notable bio' CSD applies to 'article' space, but not to 'user' space so to with the T1 CSD in template vs user space. The entire basis of T1's existence, possible implication of Wikimedia support, simply does not apply to the user space. --CBDunkerson 17:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  The arbitration case dealt with such templates as User Anti-UN, how is User No-CCP different? The case held that G4 did extend to such templates (in userspace) and by a little logical extention it is easy to see that T1 still applies to userspace. If someone creates Category:George Bush is a dick can we not speedy it? "But A6 has an A in front of it, it only applies to articles!" Nonsense. Divisive and inflammatory templates (in all namespaces) are fair game. Kotepho 02:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  So... by extension of the interpretation T1 means the opposite of what Jimbo says it means? Heh. :] If these boxes had been created in user space in the first place the 'recreation' ArbCom principle you cite would not apply to them, correct? So they couldn't be 'G4' in that case... and they couldn't be T1 because they aren't in the template namespace and thus don't 'imply Wikimedia endorsement'... and they don't violate general standards for user page content. Yet you argue that since they were created in Template space first, as was the accepted practice at the time, they can no longer exist in user space... even though they could have if they hadn't been (correctly) placed in template space originally before the change in standards. This makes sense? If someone creates completely new userboxes which express similar sentiments that 'recreation' principle does not apply to them, but we've got to do 'interpretation gymnastics' to come up with some technicality where these two can't because they got caught up in the transition from 'all userboxes go in 'Template:User <whatever>' to 'disputed views cannot be in template space'? Why? Wikipedia is not a battleground. We're supposed to be building an encyclopedia... not searching for a hyper-technicality to help extend a fight over trivialities. --CBDunkerson 11:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  I normally don't respond to strawmen, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just restate my argument. T1 comes into being. Jimbo doesn't say "We should have this so we can get rid of these as they are seen as an official endorsement"--he doesn't say anything. Trying to apply whatever Jimbo has said in various places to the meaning of T1 is well, meaningless. There have been cases where user subpages used as templates have been deleted under T1, and these have held up by ArbCom. If something is deleted because it is inappropriate and recreated and then used in the same way as the deleted item, it may be considered G4. That is what the rfar said. By logical extension and "common sense" it is easy to see that "Bananas are bad in template space" and "Bananas recreated in user space are still bad, so we must delete them" leads to "Bananas in user space are deletable, even if it never was deleted in template space". If you have say Template:User Hates France and User:Bob/User Hates Germany, and User Hates France is deleted from template space and then from user space, it is easy to see that User:Bob/User Hates Germany should also be deleted--even though it never existed in template space. You claim that I am looking for technicalities and I guess "wikilawyering", but I would say you are. It is a simple question, that no one has even tried to answer, how is User No-CCP substainially different than User Anti-UN or various other user space templates that have been deleted (and kept deleted) before? The only response thus far has been "well, wikipedia is blocked in china, so the people that would be upset won't know!". That is so vacuous that it does not merit a reply. Oh, I can play the Jimbo sez game too "However, the issue with userboxes is that they are templates, and as such, they are categorized and easy to replicate and easy to use for campaigning and so on, and so they turn individual advocacy behavior, which is bad enough, into group campaigns." is all still true of userfied templates. Kotepho 23:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  I think I see the problem. Your third sentence is incorrect. Jimbo did say that we needed to get these things out of template space / avoid the appearance of Wikimedia support for them. Indeed, he has done so repeatedly... for instance immediately after the point at which you cut off the quotation above. It continues, "The pages which list userboxes, in the template namespace, make it seem as though putting these things on userpages is a normal and accepted community behavior, when in fact it is not. There is a middle ground, I agree. The middle ground is to let people do as they will in the user space...". I believe you are also incorrect when you say that Jimbo's position is "meaningless" in relation to T1. T1 exists because of Jimbo. It is there for no other reason. It was created and kept strictly on his say so. Therefor you can't make it mean something different than he says or there just isn't any basis for its continued existence. It was never discussed and adopted through formal consensus. It was installed at Jimbo's discretion to get 'disputed/divisive statements' out of the template namespace. Using a policy which exists on Jimbo's say so to contradict Jimbo is meritless. Can't be done. You want to cleanse the user space of people saying things like, 'I am gay and have been married to my partner for 3 years now' or, for some inexplicable reason, just cases where they transclude such statements from a user sub-page, then you need to propose and get consensus on a policy to do so. T1 was created to protect Wikimedia from the appearance of supporting various potentially contentious positions/causes by removing such from the template namespace. Nothing more. We would prefer that users not put such issues on their user pages (as Jimbo goes on to say), but we do not prevent them from doing so. Even at the height of the explosion with (arguably) the most contentious issue, the 'pedophile userbox wheel war'... which directly spawned T1, users were allowed to keep statements indicating that they were pedophiles in user space (and continue to do so to this day). Just not in template space. You try to 'extend' an ArbCom principle about re-creations to make T1 apply to user space, but it just inherently doesn't. It is not transclusion (or rectanglization) which makes these divisive views deletable... it is their existence in the 'seemingly official' template namespace rather than as concepts endorsed solely by users in the user space. --CBD 11:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Jimbo has said that they should not be in Template:, yes. However, that is not what I said at all. He did not say "Here is T1. Divisive and inflammatory templates are bad because it looks like an official endorsement.". T1 exists because Jimbo has decreed that divisive and inflammatory things are bad, he did not qualify why. Jimbo has not endorsed the German solution as everyone seems to say. He has simply stated "here is what de. did". Thus, citing T1 cannot contradict Jimbo's wishes (or if it does, he has not expressly stated them). If Jimbo wants to say that T1 does not apply to userspace or that he supports moving userboxes to userspace in an official capacity I'm sure he can figure out how to tell us. Again I say "there is a difference between Jimbo's opinion and his decrees". It is funny how you keep harping on "T1 in userspace" though, as the debate about these particular templates is obviously in line with the definition of G4 previously used and therefore does not need to apply in this case anyways (at least for the EFF one, I cannot find a Template: version of No-CCP but that doesn't mean it didn't exist). Kotepho 15:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Jimbo reinstated T1 in "divisive and inflammatory" form into the CSD on 6 February. The community accepted this as they viewed it as his decree. However, on 20 February he said "There have been no decrees from me". He did not simply state "here is what de. did" [sic as regards use of quotation marks], he said "The middle ground is to let people do as they will in the user space, and merely use reason and argument to teach people over time why one ought not use Wikipedia userpages for political or other campaigns.... while at the same time saying, no, really, the template namespace is not for that, that we do not endorse this behavior. This is the solution that the Germans have put into effect with great results." [Emphasis added.] All of this can be verified by reading Wikipedia:Jimbo on Userboxes, except the reason for the community accepting it, which must be verified by reading the February history and archived talk page of WP:CSD.

  Finally, I suggest that the talk pages Wikipedia talk:German userbox solution or Wikipedia talk:T1 and T2 debates are the most approriate pages to continue discussion as to what the right general approach is.GRBerry 16:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep deleted. I swear, when you think you've found a solution to a problem, another problem crops up. --Lord Deskana ^{Dark Lord of the Sith} 11:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Out of curiosity, what solution are you referring to? Most other editors here are citing WP:GUS. --StuffOfInterest 15:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and do not list at xfD. The German userbox solution is a compromise designed to end the userbox wars. Speedy deleting userboxes in userspace shows contempt for that compromise, and spits in the face of those who worked hard to make it reality. If the same criteria apply to userboxes in userspace as apply to userboxes in template space, then there is no compromise at all, and the wars, and the exodus, will go on. Jay Maynard 11:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It is disappointing that we may lose a few good editors, but by and large people who would leave wikipedia over this are people who have the wrong idea about Wikipedia and see their userpage as another livejournal. --Improv 13:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Please trim that broad brush. You have no way of knowing that, and the accusation, while not as insulting as saying those who believe userboxes are valuable want to turn Wilipedia into MySpace, is nevertheless quite wide of the mark. The reason people would leave Wikipedia over this is not only the inability to say who one is, but also - and perhaps even more so - that speedy deletions in the face of an ongoing attempt to reach a genuine compromise say that those in power simply do not care what those not in power think. That attitude is far more corrosive than any userbox can be, and, from what I'm seeing, far more pervasive. Jay Maynard 13:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • You hit the nail on the head. When legitimate attempts at compromise are responded to with hard-line stonewalling, you know something is fundamentally wrong with Wikipedia's culture. jgp 13:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Comment The difficulty is that compromise is not possible (or even desirable) in every case. For example, vandals want unlimited vandaism, wikipedia wants none, so it would be pointless to compromise and allow some vandalism. The base issue in this is that some see these boxes as an example of what wikipedia is not, and as such not a valid case for compromise, as what wikipedia is, and is not, is fundamental, not only to its culture, but to wikipedia itself. MartinRe 17:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
          • Now you're just implying that userboxes are vandalism which is grossly off base and quite insulting. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 17:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
            • No, I am implying no such thing. I am simply pointing out that "compromise" is not always a magic word. If you have people that believe (rightly or wrongly) that the opposing view has no merit, then the middle ground will seem equally flawed. If one person thinks 2+2=4 and another says that 2+2=6, a suggested compromise to agree that 2+2=5 would also be rejected, but might be seen as stonewalling. And no, I am not saying any opinion is as right as "2+2=4", but am just pointing out possible reasons why what appears to be a compromise to one person, may appear not to be one to someone else. (and I have seen signs of this on all sides of this debate) Regards, MartinRe 18:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete, as it has always been standard to make and transclude user subpages. --SPUI (T - C) 14:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete no basis for deletion per the German Solution. Also they are most definitely not T1. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 17:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Userfy them to my userpage UBX directory (UBX), which is open to all (non-personal attack/reality-compatible) userboxes. If anyone deletes it there, I will undelete it. Simple. TGS will be implemented, by community consensus. Xoloz 18:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • By the way, I got this idea from User:Cyde Weys, no friend of userboxes, and he is helping me implement it, so I'd say it has some sort of "bipartisan support". Xoloz 19:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Umm, Xoloz, look closely. These were already in user space. Also, if you just undelete them you'll end up being accused of wheel warring. --StuffOfInterest 19:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I know exactly what I said SOI (although I take no offense at your point :) The difference between Winhunter and me is that I can undelete myself, without process hoops. Anyone who wheel-warred with me over my own userspace would go to ArbCom with me, and not be looked on too brightly. If I must wheel-war and lose adminship... oh well. If it ends the userbox war, it is worth it. I trust, however, that my fellow admins would respect my userspace, even if they delete from other "normal users" (sic). If they don't, we'll get this settled. Xoloz 19:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I hate to say this, but regardless of how it gets there I'm starting to think that ArbCom is the right place to go. I had hoped that when WP:GUS came around, backed by Jimbo's own words, things would finally settle. It appears that this isn't the case and higher level policy may be needed. --StuffOfInterest 19:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: I'd like to see fewer user boxes, and I don't care where they are stored. The German system doesn't answer the fundamental question: What is Wikipedia?

Some user boxes are clearly deleted under T1 when they are not inflammatory. The emotional attachment which people show to a particular userbox when it is deleted can indicate whether it is inflammatory, and some raise no hackles. I wouldn't personally delete marginal userboxes until a new policy gains consensus. And people wheel warring over this issue just demonstrates they are too involved to have a dispassionate opinion. What we need in the short term is a simple and non-time consuming way to determine which boxes should be kept and which deleted while policy is worked out.

I suggest a panel of five people representing differing shades of opinion, with a process that means some are deleted and some are kept. Then everyone else can get on with more productive things. It's silly to have so many people involved when at the end of the day, they'll either all be deleted or all be recreated. Stephen B Streater 20:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Does a userbox having people with emotional attachment automatically make them inflammatory? What about the organ donor one? That had lots of emotional attachment, but it is almost completely inconceivable that it is inflammatory. (I just renewed my driver's license today, and made sure to check the box for organ donation, in part because this issue reminded me of it.)

It makes no sense to do anything with userboxes until policy is worked out. All deleting some does is inflame the situation and make it look like those doing the deleting are trying to get their licks in before they're told not to. That's the fundamental argument here: an admin took it upon himself to act while policy is still in flux, and the consensus appears to be that that is objectionable. Your panel would be even more so. Jay Maynard 20:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

A panel might not be a bad idea, but I'd be shocked if anything becomes a policy on userboxes without just being done for a while first. I'd suggest that whomever forms such a panel look for 1) regular participation (no use having someone who drops out for months at a time), 2) demonstrated ability to be educational in discussing the topic, and for at least most of the panel members 3) demonstrated nuanced decisionmaking - no use having a panel of people whose opinions are predictable before they even see the userbox, as that would defeat the reason for forming a panel. I don't think this could become policy, but if a few people formed a panel that would chime in when requested, and that panel met Stephen B Streater's and my criteria, it could help and could even be a good enhancement to WP:GUS. I'm going to boldly take the suggestion, Jay's and my comments over to the talk page for that. So please follow up on this idea at it's talk page. GRBerry 20:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment. What boggles my mind is that everyone seems to overlook that deleting userboxes, especially ones like this that are following the german solution, is far and away more disruptive and divisive that any userbox has ever been on wikipedia. Like it or no, this is the case and has been for some time. Even Jimbo has supported the german solution, why can't it just be left at that. Further attempts to delete WP:GUS compliant userboxes is just going to cause disruption and hassle to everyone and won't change a thing. Userboxes are here to stay. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 21:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

This comment is very close to inspiring me give up on all compromise and turn into a hard-core userbox deletionist. Do you think about the effect your words will have on others? If you say "Userboxes are here to stay", that's like throwing a gauntlet down. Why would you do that? -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not throwing the gauntlet down, just saying that the german solution is a HUGE compromise on the part of people that want userboxes. Why can't it be the meeting point in the middle? JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought the point of WP:GUS was to allow userboxes to stay, in user space, unless they violated some tenet of WP:USER. Is this not correct? Jay Maynard 22:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought the point of WP:GUS was to end the userbox war. In the short run, this means that userboxes stay. In the long run, they will become less important, probably less visible, and possibly less used in total. My personal view of the long run, as a middle aged individual, is that it will be a year or two. But again, this is better discussed at the talk page for WP:GUS instead of here. GRBerry 22:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Jay, have you read anything Jimbo said about userboxes? The point of WP:GUS is to get userboxes the hell out of template space immediately, and allow us to take our time educating people about why they're actually bad for Wikipedia and getting fully rid of them in the long run. If people aren't even going to pretend to be open to the idea that we might have a point about that, then I don't see much sense in doing all the work of trying to make the process smooth. If you're just bound a determined to culturally colonize Wikipedia, and say fuck what Jimbo and the experienced Wikipedians think, then I can pretty well understand why we might respond by trying quite intentionally to drive you away. How can you talk about compromise, when you're not even willing to admit that you might be wrong? Have you done anything in the direction of opening your mind to the valid point that we just might be making, or is it just riveted shut? I'd really just as soon people with minds riveted shut left the encyclopedia writing to those of us capable of seeing from more than one perspective; we're more qualified. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm perfectly willing to admit that you might have a point about it. I understand that Jimbo feels userboxes should go. What I'm having trouble with are two things: 1) Why, if having editors state their PsOV on their user pages is such a problem, is it perfectly acceptable for them to use plain text to say the exact same things - as advocated by a leading userbox deletionist? If it harms the project, shouldn't it go, in whatever form, as a matter of policy - which Jimbo has explicitly refused to do in the case of userboxes? 2) I do view WP:GUS as a compromise, because I do not believe that there is any substantial difference between having userboxes in Template: space and having them in User: space (because I do not believe that any reasonable outsider will believe that Wikipedia is endorsing anything on a user page in any way, and those templates are explicitly restricted to user pages). It appears that userboxes in Template: space and comprehensive userbox directories are at an end, and I'm willing to give that up - but only if there's compromise from the other side, as well. The German userbox solution is that workable compromise, as long as admins don't try to torpedo it by unilaterally applying T1 to templates in user space where it doesn't belong. One admin did so, and that's why we're here.

I'm honestly not trying to piss you off. You have been a voice of reason throughout the implementation of WP:GUS, and even though you may not believe that, I do appreciate it. I'm not out to culturally colonize Wikipedia. I am out to recognize human dynamics, not ignore them, however, in this diverse community. Jay Maynard 23:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, why not stop repeating this tired mantra that people are trying to "ignore human dymanics", for starters? If you're going to persistently mischaracterize the anti-userbox position, I'm going to assume you don't know what it actually is. I don't want anyone to be bland, pretend they have no strong opinions, or hide their POV. That's not what it's about.

Also, "if it harms the project, shouldn't it go, in any form, as a matter of policy?" No. That would be the authoritarian approach. I'll say it again - Wikipedia doesn't work the way you're guessing it must. You have to think outside the bun here. Wikipedia is a new kind of thing, where new kinds of dynamics occur. We don't accomplish things by making rules, and then carrying them out. We suggest, persuade, evolve, flow. I'm not saying that all the people deleting userboxes are providing good examples of how it's supposed to work, but... have you studied Wikis at all? Presumably, anyone who thinks they're working for the good of Wikipedia on this issue has spent a lot of hours at MeatballWiki and the WikiWikiWeb learning about this new technology, and what its social aspects are like, right? If you don't know what Wikiculture is like, how do you know you're not helping to aggressively colonize it, quite by accident, with a destructive view of how it should run?

Next, iconography has power. A rectangle turns a piece of text into a badge, and places its bearer into a category, defined by the text in the box. It's a clear message: "I'm taking a side!" I had a few political userboxes at first, because there's something alluring about them - if you see them on someone else's page, you want some of your own. They're kind of viral that way. Then, one day I realized that my goal, as a Wikipedian, is to dissolve those boundaries, get outside of myself, and continually improve my ability to see issues from multiple perspectives, which quite explicitly translates into better encyclopedia writing. I'm not hiding my beliefs, I just don't choose to emphasize them here, because this is where I try to be something bigger than myself. If they're relevant to an article, I'll state them in the proper context, when I'm in a discussion about that article. I refuse, however, to display a bunch of badges and send the message to anyone visiting my userspace: here's a writer with an agenda, someone who might care about the encyclopedia, but definitely cares about issues X, Y, and Z.

The worst consequence is this: there are peeople in this world who don't care at all about NPOV. They don't care about making a neutral encyclopedia for everyone, that's fair to everyone. They care about advancing their agenda. They are not welcome here. They are enemies to our project. A sheet of colorful useboxes advertising one's pet causes makes Wikipedia look custom-made for POV-pushing. We would prefer that POV-pushers look around Wikipedia and see "gosh, there's a lot of people here who seem really committed to being super-fair minded about things, I feel kind of out of place all advocating for one side in my pet dispute."

Now, I think I've just described a position that's different from how you were characterizing the userbox deletionist stance. Please tell me, Jay, if I've managed to make a distinction between what I say you were saying I'm saying, and what I'm actually saying. Please tell me that I've managed to show that I'm not interested in making people hide their POVs, but I'm actually interested in an ideal where people, fully cognizant and admitting of their POVs, strive to transcend them with every edit to the Wikipedia, and would actually just feel funny advertising them with an attractive little box, just like you might feel out of place wearing a sandwich board advertising your business to church.

I will be quite happy if you continue to disagree, as long as you're accurate about what it is you're disagreeing with. If I haven't managed to clarify it here, please let me know, and I will keep trying. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

This deserves much more reply than I'm comfortable putting in here, as we seem to be getting a bit far afield from the subject (at least, I don't think DRV is a place to discuss deep concepts of Wikipedia philosophy). I'll limit myself here to saying that I'm as fully committed to NPOV in article space as you are, and I fully agree that this is not the place to advance anyone's agenda; I simply disagree that it's fully possible to check one's biases at the door. While your ideal is laudable, it is impossible, and it behooves us to act in understanding of how people are, rather than how we'd like them to be. Jay Maynard 02:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I second the feelings above and add, what is so bad about someone explicitly stating their POVs? If anything it makes it easier to identify if they've let POV come into their work in the article space. If I state, as I do, in my infobox that I am for immigrants rights and then edit an article on that topic with a potentially skewed bias it will be easier to identify that I did and for it to be modified to a more NPOV statement. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete first (whether or not necessary, as it's reappeared elsewhere in Winhunter's user pages); do not send to MfD, as it's not T1, T2, T3, or otherwise Speedyable. keep second deleted only if transcluded by other users, otherwise undelete (if necessary) It is T1, but that doesn't apply unless it's a template. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• undelete these please they are in user space erasure was wrongful Yuckfoo 01:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - these are T2 boxes that would have been quite properly deleted if they had been in template space. Metamagician3000 11:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and slap speedy deleter with a healthy trout. These are in user space. Restore them and get back to the encyclopedia. Please remember --Speedy Deletion is not a Toy 22:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Kill these dead and point those interested to MySpace. --Calton | Talk 05:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • ARGH!!! Would those folks who oppose userboxes please, please quit insulting those of us who favor them by saying we're trying to turn Wikipedia into MySpace? It's just not true, and it's approaching the level of gratuitous incivility. Jay Maynard 12:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I'd call it pretty much a violation of both WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. --StuffOfInterest 12:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Strategic Policy Consulting

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Strategic Policy Consulting

The article about Strategic Policy Consulting was recently deleted and protected against re-creation, along with its associated redirects. This article is referred to in the frequently vandalised article about Alireza Jafarzadeh. Strategic Policy Consulting is relevant to a current event, the Iran and weapons of mass destruction issue. The company, through its links with the Mujahedeen-e_Khalq, is the primary US source of intelligence about Iran at present. The advice it provides may lead to US military action against Iran, thereby changing the course of history in the near future. A Wikipedia article about this company may be referred to by key decision makers throughout the world as they weigh the value of the advice it provides. With this in mind I would like to suggest the article be re-created so that it can be expanded and linked appropriately. --Dave 08:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Without commenting on the value of the article, I have to say that "A Wikipedia article about this company may be referred to by key decision makers throughout the world as they weigh the value of the advice it provides" is the scariest thing I'm likely to read today. Are you serious? · rodii · 15:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment was the article deleted by speedy or via AfD? And yes, the idea of the government consulting wikipedia is very frightening. --tjstrf 15:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Strategic Policy Consulting. User:Zoe|^(talk) 15:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I think Dave probably means that key decision markers will be consulting the subject of the article, not the article itself. If it is the "primary US source of intelligence about Iran", that sounds like a claim of notability not considered by the original AfD that would be worth a re-examination. Is there a third-party source to support this claim? --Sam Blanning^(talk) 16:13, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • That's not how I read it. Not that it's a big deal, but I read it as saying "key decisions maker will turn to the Wikipedia article for background on this company when they decide how much weight to give the company's intelligence." And that seems wrong to me. At the very least, we should be careful not to give credence to any claims about the company unless they meet a pretty high standard of verification. But I think that takes us out of deletion review territory. I agree with what you say about re-examining the evidence. · rodii · 16:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Unprotect/undelete. The article was deleted as an advertisement, but only 4 users even commented on the deletion. A rewritten form should be acceptable and it has a seemingly good claim to notability based on its owner. --tjstrf 17:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse close, but don't object to a rewrite if notability can be established. Just because only four people commented does not make this an invalid deletion. Discuss process. Please note that Googling '"Strategic Policy Consulting, Inc." -wikipedia' only brings up 55 hits, and the first five of those are various websites created by the company. User:Zoe|^(talk) 20:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted: I was the person who originally put this article up for AfD, way back just over a year ago. At the time, the article contained nothing to establish notability. One of the phrases from the article prior to that deletion: "there is a new power house in foreign policy namely Strategic Policy Consulting, Inc." The article read like spam, and I feel was deleted appropriately. The four versions that have been speedy deleted since the AfD deletion have contained less content than the first entry, with the content being less spam like but containing nothing to assert notability. That Alireza Jafarzadeh is the company's president is not in my opinion sufficient to make the company itself notable, as what minimal content has been included in the five deleted versions of the article could very easily be merged into the Alireza Jafarzadeh article. There is a claim above that this company is the primary source of intelligence on Iran for the United States. If that is true, then that is certainly enough claim to notability for an article. However, the claim at this point is uncited. I invite the person who made this deletion review request to create a proposed article at Strategic Policy Consulting/Temp, complete with citations and references substantiating this group's notability. This will give us an opportunity to fairly evaluate if there really is a claim to notability here or if the content should be included in the Alireza Jafarzadeh article, with perhaps a redirect from the subject article. --Durin 21:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse speedy-deletions as recreated content. Allow a rewrite in the Temp space citing independent third-party sources and demonstrating how this company meets the criteria of WP:CORP. I note that this page was rewritten during the AFD discussion by user:12.38.30.1, an IP address whose registration traces back to the same street address as this company. It was reposted word-for-word by that same IP and by two other IPs, leading me to believe that this is a single insider posting about his/her company. If you think you or your company might be important enough for an article, it's always a good idea to wait and let someone else write it. Rossami (talk) 22:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Update: In reviewing the contribution history of the anon IP user, every edit made to other articles has apparently either been deleted or reverted as vandalism. That does seem to make it harder to assume good faith in this particular case. Rossami (talk) 01:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted stub article which made absolutely no claim to encyclopaedic notability. Just zis Guy you know? 08:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I will take up Durin's offer to write a new article on Strategic Policy Consulting. I assure everyone it will not read like an advertisement. If my rewrite of the Alireza Jafarzadeh is any indication it will probably result in another item on my vandal patrol to-do list.

To those above who were apprehensive at the thought of powerful people using Wikipedia for background, it happens regularly. We know for a fact government officials, politicians and other powerful people use Google. Wikipedia articles are often listed close to the top of a Google search and may be the first non-corporate information browsers encounter. At present the number two listing on a Google search for 'strategic policy consulting inc.' is http://www.answers.com/topic/strategic-policy-consulting-inc. The answers.com article is a direct copy of the Wikipedia article recently deleted, even citing Wikipedia as its source. Scary as it is, when powerful people search the web for information today, Wikipedia is often one of the first places they look. --Dave 00:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Actuarial Outpost

This article was previously nominated for deletion with a decision of non-consensus. I question that the article meets neutrality and verifiability conditions for wiki articles. The original article was submitted by a member of the chat site as a vanity piece. The author, Avi, goes by the same name here and on the chat site. He is listed on the web chat site as a site supporter, which he describes as people who contributed funds to sustain the site. Also, most of the article is not verifiable as to who visits, size or influence.Deletionary 03:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• User's 5 edits are all to a AfD or DRV. Kimchi.sg 03:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Unless you have reason to think that the judgement of non consensus is incorrect, and that really there WAS a consensus to delete but the admin missed it, the best thing to do is to wait an appropriate time, and relist the article. DRV is not for revisiting the deletion discussion itself (which it often is helpful to give a link to, though, by the way) but rather for discussing whether there's some reason that it needs to be overturned. IMHO anyway. ++Lar: t/c 05:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete It appears the decision of non-consensus was unduly influenced by the "author" of the site's article and other members of the site who do not satisfy a neutrality requirement. I was not aware of this information and likely the reviewer was not aware either. The user name Avi, is identified as a financial contributor, site supporter, of the site the article is about. Wikipedia is supposed to be a community project and guided by neutrality and verifiable content. I am disappointed that opinions can be inserted into this project so easily in the form of non-neutral vanity pieces. I suppose I come to wikipwedia with too high of expectations.Deletionary 12:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

11 June 2006

The Esplanade Mall

Sheesh - I had to hunt through my browser history to find this. It was deleted recently on VFD. I found it soon after in CAT:CSD tagged at a repost. When I found it, it already was not "just a lengthy list of stores that exist at a mall" as the originally-deleted article was. I cleaned it up and completely rewrote it; the article included information about it being closed due to Hurricane Katrina. And yet it was still deleted as a repost. --SPUI (T - C) 18:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I was the admin who last deleted this article (it had been deleted as a repost once before). Although the content had been slightly rewritten it was fundamentally the same article. I believe that there may have been some confusion here, because the original article also contained a list of stores (but not only a list of stores - as a comment on the AfD indicated). Please let me know if you want me to retrieve the actual contents. Cheers TigerShark 19:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  I remember rewriting it - the grammar was horrible. Also, one of the "votes" reads:

  Even the cleaned-up version (of Clearview Mall) is simply a list of stores. If the article were to contain additional information, such as history of the mall, significant stores that have come and gone, significant events held at the mall, etc. I'd say keep.

  Given that the article as rewritten included some history, either Rehcsif didn't bother to read the article, or the article as rewritten was not the one on VFD. --SPUI (T - C) 19:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse speedy deletion. The article as it stood at the time when the AfD was closed and the article deleted was substantially similar to the most recent version, the main difference being that the most recent version was better written and some cruft had been jettisoned (which did not affect the rationale for deletion - non-notability). A mention of the mall being affected by Hurricane Katrina was inserted into the article only an hour after the AfD began, and didn't sway any editors. And is that really the most interesting thing to say about this shopping centre? Certainly Hurricane Katrina damaged loads of places and doesn't confer notability by association. Unless there's something verified about it that hasn't been brought up yet worth putting in an encyclopaedia, keep deleted. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 19:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • If "votes" that concur with deletion of the present article due to its problems are to be taken as "votes" against any future article on the topic, I will be sure to "vote" to keep any article about a shopping mall, no matter how shitty the writing is. On the one hand, people say to "vote" on how the current article is, not on what it could be, but then (presumably) others delete any new article as a re-creation. --SPUI (T - C) 19:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Restore. For any mall, it is worth describing its role as a transit hub, if this is the case. TruthbringerToronto 20:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist at AfD per TruthbringerToronto. (I tagged the latest recreation of the article, which SPUI removed.) Let's see if SPUI (and others?) can expand the article enough. Kimchi.sg 03:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• 'Relist might as well see the contents and judge based on those, it sounds like it might be an expandable subject. --tjstrf 05:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • We already did that, and so far no new content has been presented to judge since the AfD closed 3 days ago. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. It was listed alongside Clearview Mall, and both received an overwhelming proportion of delete votes, including comments like "malls are not inheirantly notable" and "malls are generally not notable." and "I appreciate the idea and effort, but articles on the malls of towns falls under Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information." GeorgeStepanek\^talk 11:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I'm going to use one of my rare free moments to make a quick comment about this article. I originally listed the article for AfD when it was a list of malls, I would still place in AfD after seeing the recreated article. This mall wasn't the only thing that was hit by Hurricane Katrina, many more things were devasted by it. For instance, homes, roads, a large stadium, people's lives. By placing an article on a mall and stating that it's notable because it closed due to a large Hurricane, is making a mockery of people's lives and of the purpose of Wikipedia. Nothing notable happened in this mall to make it noteworthy, and the closing of a mall due to a hurricane (which is what the mall is SUPOSED to do, so that makes it norm), is not anywhere near the quality that Wikipedia needs to maintain. Yanksox 11:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse speedy-deletion. I reviewed a number of the deleted versions of this article both before and after the deletion decision. I do not consider them sufficiently different to have addressed the core concerns raised during the deletion discussion. Rossami (talk) 22:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy undelete as an improper speedy deletion. Silensor 19:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, no significant improvment has been made. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 20:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Sydney Ling

I feel that this one was badly handled on account of two things - I believe that there was clearly a consensus (and just a few votes shy of a supermajority) for deleting the article. Even more troubling, however, is the fact that the moderator Mailer diablo literally closed the debate and then actually retired from Wikipedia! (At least according to his user page - this all has happened today.) In any case, I'm a bit distressed both because of the outcome and the fact that the mod just got up and left the community straight after. I believe that this was mishandled, and I'd advocate an overturn and delete; here's the original AfD. Thanks! Girolamo Savonarola 13:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Shame about Mailer leaving; it does mean we can't ask him to explain himself. This seems a borderline case; I'd suggest overturning the close and relisting. Mackensen (talk) 14:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Endorse closure. I think you are confusing the way these deletion debates are handled. Consensus is a higher standard than a mere supermajority. It means that we pay as much or more attention to the weight of arguments as we do to the weight of numbers. Reviewing the discussion, I make a vote-count of 16 "delete" to 7 "keep" (with one probable troll discounted). Had there been strong evidence, that could have been sufficient to interpret as the necessary "rough consensus" for deletion. In this case, however, the arguments focused on whether the person is notable enough to meet our recommended criteria for inclusion of biographies and neither side of this debate presented strong evidence either way. Furthermore, many of the participants explicitly qualified their opinions as "weak" (5 of the "keeps" were phrased as "weak keep" and 2 of the "deletes" were "weak delete"). Closing this discussion as "no consensus" seems to me to be well within the reasonable discretion of a closing admin.
  Note: a "no consensus" decision defaults to keep for now but does not prevent anyone from gathering stronger evidence and renominating it for deletion after a reasonable delay. Rossami (talk) 14:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

How, exactly, does one gain stronger evidence of non-notability? You cannot prove a negative, right? I understand that it is not merely a matter of votes, but I offered up what I could, and no one else had much to say. This may be because there wasn't much left to say - those for keeping didn't speak up to justify their votes, while those who voted to delete explained their specific rationale (re notability). Were they expected to expound on it for a full paragraph each? Clearly they felt the matter was a simple one and didn't feel the need to orate on it. While I respect that this isn't necessary what is sought after in an AfD, please let me know what else could have been done, if something wasn't handled well. Girolamo Savonarola 14:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

To gain stronger evidence of non notability, search in more and different, yet still appropriate, places and present the negative results. ++Lar: t/c 11:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, Lar, surely the onus is on those claiming notability to prove that is the case, and not the other way round as it's based on WP:V, verifying that he's notable. (also see comment below) Regards, MartinRe 12:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I agree. I was just directly answering the question asked. However, on a RE list, I think the lister has some responsibility to present new information, sufficient to justify why the previous result was unsatisfactory, or to show that things have changed in some way . That said, I agree with what you say below (and endorse the closure), because "the passage of time with no new notability proof" is a kind of "change in some way". ++Lar: t/c 12:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure the afd focused on whether the subject was notable enough, and the opinion seemed to be borderline, verging on no, so "no consensus" seems a fair enough call on the afd. (if in doubt, don't delete, but not enough case for full keep) However, the notability claims need to be strengthened to remove that doubt, if this is not done, then it could be brought to afd again after a reasonable time, and if the arguements are similar, it will probably swing to delete, with the additional factor of no claims being found since the last afd weighing against the notability claim. Regards, MartinRe 12:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, Mailer diablo does not need to explain himself, the no consensus to delete is quite clear. Silensor 19:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Siberian language

This page has been unilaterally deleted by moderator Alex Bakharev, based on a VfD of more than a year ago. I should point out, however, that a lot of things can change in a year's time, and I have such a feeling that this is the case here. Besides, the contents of the recreated article was completely different from the previous (deleted) version. I should also point out that there is a pending request for a wikipedia in the language, and therefore I think this article is not only of value, but even necessary. I propose undeleting it immediately and issuing a normal AfD procedure instead. — --IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 09:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Original deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Siberian language. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Abstain - The current contents are indeed vastly different than the old, and it does seem perhaps a bit odd to delete as a recreate of a validly deleted article. That being said, the new content was incredibly poor, with bad spelling, links to livejournal, and many of the other markers of a poor article. I also wonder whether it's appropriate to call this a language -- by the article it sounds more like a description of a dialect (perhaps like calling a Boston accent a Boston language?). In sum, I don't know if there's any content worth keeping, and the title's probably misleading too. I'm open to lines of reasoning by other people on this one. --Improv 10:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The matter is just to construct a full language on the base of dialect --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Are you saying this is a project to build a language out of a dialect? Are you involved? How big is this? --Improv 15:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • 1. Yes. 2. We have group of 81 persons who work at it - http://community.livejournal.com/learn_siberian/profile, but I am the leader of this group. 3. It has 15000 words in dictionary now http://volgota.com/govor/language/lj.doc.zip? online dictionary provided by ukrainian research group (NOT me, I can not program) http://totem.in.ua/sib/trans.php, it has rather wide literature of abouat 100 texts http://volgota.com/govor/, it has news service http://volgota.com/news/, so surely it is not OR --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Endorse Deletion - No disrespect is intended for you or your project, but this is too small and too new a project to be covered on Wikipedia, and this smacks of using Wikipedia as a promotional vehicle. Maybe in a few years, this might be appropriate for an article, but as for right now, the article is too close to original research (I doubt there are independent studies of the language) and promo. --Improv 16:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted - Utter nonsense. There is absolutely no such thing as the "Siberian language". --Timothy Usher 10:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • just see it at http://volgota.com - newspaper, books, site interface. Wiki has many articles about languages not so developed as Siberian --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - The language was developed from the time of last deletion, now it is very complicated, many texts translated and written, many people learning it, a big site launched, so it is not "non-notable" conlang now --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - I absolutely agree with Yaroslav Zolotaryov. By the way, the site about siberian language and test wiki on siberian --Steel archer 14:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Both of these accounts were created to vote on Deletion Review. Not cool. --Improv 16:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • You can see my history in UK and Yaroslav's (Anarch) history in RU Wikipedias. Why new users can't vote? --Steel archer 21:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted - no reliable sources, unverifiable. --Pjacobi 12:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Just search in Google "siberian language/сибирский язык/сибирской говор/сибірська мова". And look at test siberian wiki. There are 5-10 millions people in Siberia (and not only there) what spoke on this language, and I'm. too. Do you think I'm speaking on language what is not exist? :) --Steel archer 16:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, looking at the article, the VfD was as valid today as it was last year. --fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 12:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Please, elucidate your thought. --Steel archer 16:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. This looks like an attempt to promote a non-notable constructed language. There are no independent, neutral sources to confirm the existance of a specific "Siberian language" as described in the article. There are several languages spoken in Siberia, but this article does not adress any of them. --Ezeu 12:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Just search in Google "siberian language/сибирский язык/сибирской говор/сибірська мова". And look at test siberian wiki. There are 5-10 millions people in Siberia (and not only there) what spoke on this language, and I'm. too. Do you think I'm speaking on language what is not exist? :) --Steel archer 15:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • The test wiki is not an independent reliable source. Much of it is written by some people participating here. --Ezeu 12:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Siberian language was prohibited in Russian Empire and Soviet Union. And now, most of people which are against this language are russian imperialists indeed. And this is a reason why it is rather difficult to find sources about siberian. There are no full literature siberian language: Yaroslav Zolotaryov just constructs it basing on many siberian dialects. So, you can hardly ever find people speak on ""literature"" siberian - only on its dialects. --Steel archer 16:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist to AfD: from my reading in linguistics I would expect it to be deleted there, but it would give non-admins the chance to debate the deletion on the merits of its content, especially as it doesn't seem to meet the recreated content CSD. --Aquilina 12:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - This page needs to be undeleted. The language has already been constructed. It is based on a local dialect, but its' origins are really beside the point. There is, for example, a wiki page for Talossan language, that has been constructed by a single person for a country completely invented by him, and whose "words and grammar are just made up at random". Surely Siberian has far better basis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.20.29.135 (talk • contribs) 13:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• The speedy-deleted version was significantly different from the deleted version. On that basis, I'm afraid that we must overturn the speedy-deletion and relist to AFD. However, I am deeply skeptical that the article will prevail during the deletion discussion. The prior deletion discussion was unanimous and included the opinion of the alleged author of this recently constructed language. None of the concerns raised in the prior deletion debate have been answered either in the redeleted article nor in this discussion so far. The wiki does not meet the required standards for a reliable source and the google test (168 unique hits) returns very little that appears relevant. Every hit I scanned used the phrase "Siberian language" in the casual sense of "a language used by a community indiginous to the geographic area of Siberia", not in the sense of a unified language. Rossami (talk) 14:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • You can try the google test in russian language, and will see many sources about the siberian not from me or Volgota group. Being an artefact of local culture, it is simply not mentioned in the english-speaking audience --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Without sources that are functionally verifiable by the english-speaking participants of the English Wikipedia, that won't help much. Perhaps this would be more appropriate if transwiki'd to the Russian Wikipedia]? Rossami (talk) 14:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Better to the ukrainian article in http://ukr.wikipedia.org/wiki, because we believe it is more ibjective. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Weak overturn and relist per Aquilina. The version debated on VfD was a short stub, while the version deleted as G4 was fairly detailed. That said, I'd say the new version fails WP:OR pretty hard, and should be deleted or heavily shortened on that basis unless independent sources are provided. It's almost a WP:SNOW case, but I'm personally willing to give it its five days on AfD, just in case I'm proven wrong. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 14:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Some independent sources http://dpni.org/forum/post48701.html

    http://e-novosti.info/forumo/viewtopic.php?t=1819 (discussion about necessary of tukr words are they allowed or not)

    Kazakhstan article http://www.dialog.kz/site.php?lan=russian&id=76&pub=1032 (positive)

    Ukrainian article http://lab.org.ua/article/727/ (positive)

    Latvian forum http://www.evangelie.ru/forum/archive/t-14778-p-2.html (positive reaction)

    Ukrainian forums http://forum.sevastopol.info/viewtopic.php?p=134921&sid=e1bfb2dad69ccbe92f653f8e69a61352 http://www.novy.tv/ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20068&sid=6dfe6e7e13df8be971f34aa81aa365c5 (positive reaction, people reciting verses in siberian)

    Russian forum http://www.disenteria.ru/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=7492&s= (some people from Siberia testify that they know this words and grammar)

    Moscow forum http://forum.msk.ru/wap/news.wml?id=2200 (negative reaction, but the language considered natural)

    --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

    • Do you have any sources in English? The sources above may well substantiate the claims in the article for all I know, but I can't really tell since my grasp of Russian is almost nonexistent. Failing that, you might try to find a neutral established Wikipedian who understands Russian to review the sources — any volunteers? (In any case, this discussion belongs on AfD, should the article get relisted there, not here on DRV. If you wish to reply in length, please do so on my talk page or wait for the AfD listing.) —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist as different, where I will vote delete as this asserts the factual existence of this language, but no reliable sources have been produced to suggest that it is anything other than a conlang. Just zis Guy you know? 16:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per Mikka, who speaks several comparable languages and is (unlike the average AfD voter) able to understand the supposed sources. Just zis Guy you know? 22:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• keep deleted. original research. No independent information from anywhere but fans' writings provided. (forums are not allowed as sources for wikipedia) `'mikka (t) 19:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: this is nót about the question whether it is a good article or not. If there's something wrong with an article, it should be improved. Perhaps the English wasn't perfect indeed, and perhaps there was a link to a blog or something, but I think this article was still a lot better than the average stub. That kind of things can be fixed easily without deleting an article. Neither is this about the question whether constructed languages in general should be in Wikipedia or not. Nor about the question whether this article was original research. This is about the way it was deleted! Every time when a conlang is listed for deletion, they say: at present this language is not notable enough, but when that has changed, by all means create an article about it. Now, I think there are reasons to assume that that is indeed the case here. I can see many reasons why the language is notable enough. But even if I'm wrong, the merits of Siberian should be discussed properly in an AfD discussion, but definitely not here. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 21:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Surely, the article can be changed, my english is poor, and my view to the language is definitely non-neutral, so if would be better article, it would be fine --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted per WP:NOR. It's just another LiveJournal flashmob. MaxSem 21:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • That's exactly the point. That might have been true one year ago, it definitely isn't true anymore. But again, let's not start discussing the article itself, but the way it has been deleted. At present, no one can even read what the discussion is about. I think the least it deserves is a proper AfD discussion, pending which every participant in the discussion can read the article. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 21:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment: I've temporarily undeleted the history for the duration of this DRV discussion. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Extreme speedy keep deleted. OR, an attempt at advertising an nn conlang, nothing has changed to make this more notable than the first decision to delete. We're not here to reargue the AfD, but to discuss whether or not the original deletion was appropriate. It was, it still is. User:Zoe|^(talk) 23:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Pardon me, but this is not about the question whether the original deletion was appropriate. It no doubt was. If little Pete writes an article about his hobbies, then it will be deleted. But if he's suddenly elected president of the USA, does that mean there can't be an article about him because there has already been a valid VfD? What bothers me is this: once an article has survived an AfD, it can be relisted for deletion again, and again, and again, until the deletionists get their way. But once an article has been deleted, there is no way go get it back, even if things may have changed. I think that's bad, very bad! —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 08:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: out of curiosity I looked into the website of the "language". After reading the "translation" of Pushkin quoted below I am more inclined to believe this is a practical joke rather than a serious attempt to revive a supposedly extinct "Siberian" dialect of Russian. Native Russian speakers, prepare for a good laugh:

  Мой дедя шыбко чесных веров,

  Кода-от шыбко захворал,

  Людям дык всю дыхню зашкерил,

  В горбыль всех просто зайобал.

  And there is more of this.`'mikka (t) 23:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  • But such were dialetical expressions of the same meaning which is in Pushkin verse, and you laugh simply for diregarding the folk speech --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Hmm, Eugene Onegin in hillbilly... ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 08:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Tread carefully the fine line between humour and mockery. --Ezeu 08:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • No mockery of Pushkin there, Pushkin himself liked dialects, used them, if he were alive now, he perhaps voted for siberian here. His poem "Ruslan and Ludmila" was also regarded as mockery just for using dialectical words and common people's relation to the topic of this poem. So in fact, our group continues Pushkin's work, but conservators are against him --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Irrelevant. Just like "bad spelling", "links to livejournal", "too small and too new a project", "no such thing as the Siberian language", "no reliable sources", "promotion" and "original research" are irrelevant here. Again, this discussion should not be about the language itself. We have AfD discussions for that. This discussion is about the question whether an article that has been deleted in the remote past can or cannot be recreated. The admin in question has unilaterally deleted the article and locked the page, and thát is the decision I'm questioning here. People's personal tastes have no place in such discussion. For the record, I don't have a clear opinion on the matter. I'm in no way connected to the creators of the language. What I can tell as one of Wikipedia's self-proclaimed resident conlang experts, is that a lot seems to have changed since the last AfD. If the language has indeed a group of 80 active users, and if there is some press coverage, then it just might qualify for an article. Besides, we have this discussion about a wikipedia in the language going on. Personally, I don't believe this is a hoax. But like I said, that kind of arguments belong in an AfD discussion, not here. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 08:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    • This was not an argument. This was a comment that started this thread. This zolotarev guy extended his hobby joke as to suggest a siberian language wikipedia. How do you imagine wikipedia in hillbilly. This alone says something about this project. As for 80 active users: how do you know that? Somehow I don't believe Zolotaryov. The basic argument against undeletion is wikipedia:Verifiability. The "some" press coverage seen is not a reliable source, it is still word of language creator's mouth, not of an independent linguistics expert. In other words, the major objection voiced during deletion is not addressed by the new version. Article size doesn't matter. `'mikka (t) 17:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
      • A hundred years ago Ukrainian was also considered "hillbilly Russian" by the czarist government. In other words, thát argument doesn't really hold stake. As for your point regarding verifiability: I tend to agree with you here. I'd love to see some samples of real press coverage, because thát is IMO what makes the difference. I don't know whether to believe Mr. Zolotaryov or not. The whole discussion evokes quite strong reminiscences of High Icelandic. If you haven't seen it, I'd say it's worth to take a look at the AfD discussion there. My whole point is only that I think the subject deserves proper discussion, and this is not the place for it. In a normal AfD discussion I certainly wouldn't have voted "keep" without convincing arguments. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 22:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • But it should be defined, what argument are relevant in the english wiki. If it will be defined with certainity, I shall find them. "There is no such language at all" surely is not an argument. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted this nonsense, please. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 18:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, keep deleted. AfD had six deletes, no keeps. No suggestion of any voting irregularities or debatable sysop judgement. I note too that the article has no real references; the fact that one of the external links is described as "Volgota, the main promo site" strongly suggests that the purpose of the article is not to synthesize published factual material into an encyclopedia article, but to promote a project. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Quite so. Nobody is arguing that the AfD was invalid. But for heaven's sake, that was over a year ago! A lot can change in the meantime. If Yaroslav can somehow substantiate his claims about the number of speakers, and provide some verifiable info regarding press coverage, then I can't see why the article wouldn't deserve a second chance. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 05:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • In what way can I substantiate it? What info about the press is verifiable? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I see no reason to believe that this Yaroslav fellow (among others) has any existence beyond that of a sockpuppet created to vote in this deletion review..Timothy Usher 05:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • But I do! User's first contribution was dated 10 June, 18:49 (UTC). This deletion review was dated 11 June, 9:32 (UTC). So tell me: how can this account have been created with the sole purpose of voting here, if there wasn't any vote yet? I think it's always better to assume good faith! —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 07:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, nn and ue. Also, there seems to be a campaign to start a separate Wikipedia in this language. What's next Klingon and Elvish Wikipedias? --Irpen 01:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • There used to be a wikipedia in Klingon, but it has been closed down. An Elvish wikipedia has been proposed, but I don't think there's enough support for it. BTW, I'm not thát frequent a guest here; what does "ue" mean? —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 05:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Those must have been shut down for a reason. ue=unencyclopedic, nn=non-notable. --Irpen 15:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Nonsense. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 15:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Nonsense of course. Elk Salmon 08:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - Article is present in four Wikipedians (ru:Сибирский язык, be:Сыбірская мова, eo:Siberia lingvo,uk:Сибiрська мова). Please see also discussion in Russian Wikipedia (ru:Обсуждение:Сибирский язык) There article is solved keep and increase. See also article Slovio - such constructed language --Yakudza 15:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It is also being considered for deletion on the Russian Wikipedia, with a current consensus to delete (see ru:Википедия:К удалению/14 июня 2006#Сибирский язык) ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 01:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Very Weak Overturn and immediate AfD - The original was just a stub; for the sake of process, the deleted content should have its day in court. Being a linguist, I am sure it will fail AfD. I think the effort might be notable enough to (very briefly) mention the attempted "promotion" of a dialect in another article (Russian language, maybe?), but it definately doesn't deserve its own article.--WilliamThweatt 15:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion per mikka & MaxSem, article is original research. ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 01:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

10 June 2006

Template:Major_programming_languages

I did not see the TfD discussion until after someone acted on it to remove the template from an article I watch. Looking through the discussion, it appears that the discussion had 11 delete votes, and 6 keep votes (FWIW, I would have voted "keep" if I had noticed it). It doesn't seem like deletion on a bare majority is the right closing action (no consensus would be more fitting). As far as I can see, all the votes on both sides were cast in good faith, by established editors, and accompanied by reasonable statements of reasons. So the conduct of the discussion seems eminently reasonable... it just doesn't seem to have been closed correctly. LotLE×talk 20:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Note: Original TFD: Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_May_25#Template:Major_programming_languages — xaosflux ^Talk 00:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. I would have closed this TfD the same way IceKarma did. Unless Lulu's opinion would have brought with it a fantastic new argument, I doubt including his "vote" amongst the others would have tipped the balance, either. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 09:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  No,I wouldn't have had any fantastic argument that was much different from other voters. I just think that a supermajority (i.e. 75-80%, or at the least 66%) should be required for deletion, rather than just a majority (absent evidence of sockpuppetry, or clearly more experienced editors on one side of a vote, or other special circumstance... none of which existed here). 11/7 is pretty much the same thing as 11/6 in this regard. LotLE×talk 17:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  Well, *fD's being not a vote is more than just discounting inexperience or sockpuppetry. It also means that an overwhelming majority is not required for consensus to exist. Now, don't get me wrong; I'm generally in favor of keeping articles over deleting them (as long as they're maintainable and verifiable), but it seems clear from the discussion that maintaining the template was plain infeasible, by consensus. I also note that there was no prejudice against creating a new, more maintainable template. Powers 18:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  When did I mention the tally? When closing AfDs, MfDs, RfDs, and the occasional (during the long dark teatime of the soul) TfD, I make a point of never counting the number of "votes". Knowledge of the raw numbers will shed no light on the appropriate course of action, and is thus unnecessary and occasionally even obfuscatory. Bugger the tally. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 04:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Lulu: Tfd is not a vote! Don't count comments like it was one. --Cyde↔Weys 03:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

06 June 2006

Image:WikiPâques.png

Image:WikiPâques.png was deleted in February on the basis it was an orphan. Well, of course it was an orphan - it was February and the image was an Easter Wikipedia logo, so it'll only be unorphaned when it's Easter. I see no valid reason to delete this. Users may still want it on their user page at Easter. It's also causing red links in older revisions. See Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2006 February 14 for the listing on IfD. There's a copy here if the deletion is overturned and someone wants to reupload it. Angela. 08:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Re-upload to Commons, so any project can use it, and Commons is outside of enwiki's jurisdiction. --Rory096 08:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Upload to Commons, it doesn't appear to be english, but may be useful. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Recently concluded

2006 June

1. Okashina_Okashi - Decision of the original closer to relist at AfD is endorsed. 15:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
2. Dismal's Paradox - Relisted at AfD. 15:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
3. User:SPUI/jajaja - Nomination withdrawn. 13:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
4. List of political leaders widely regarded as totalitarian - Request for information answered. 05:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
5. Certainty principle - Deletion endorsed. 16:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
6. Cultural references in Pokémon - Deletion endorsed. 16:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
7. Fluffy (The Lion King) - Deletion endorsed. 16:28, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
8. Kelly Roberti - Copyright issue resolved, restored. 11:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
9. Image:Pierre Janssen.jpg - Commons image, action impossible here. 15:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC) Review
10. Neanderthal theory of autism - Deletion endorsed. 15:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
11. Be bold, Be Bold - Overturn RfD and revert to WP:BOLD. 15:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
12. Jeff Lindsay - Deletion endorsed. 15:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
13. "State Debate Associations" - Deletion endorsed. 15:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
14. How NOT to steal a SideKick 2 - Deletion endorsed. 17:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
15. Kinston Indians - Deletion endorsed. 17:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
16. Wikipedia:SCAG - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
17. Image:Nuvola 64 apps important.png - undeletion impossible; deleted prior to 16 June 2006. 13:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
18. Sick Nick Mondo - Deletion endorsed for now, pending AfD outcome for related Nick Mondo; should that survive, this is a suitable redirect. 18:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review

    Nick Mondo having survived AfD, this is restored as a redirect. 15:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

19. True Torah Jews - Deletion endorsed. 18:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review
20. UCIP - Deletion endorsed. 18:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review
21. Mending Wall - Keep endorsed. 11:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review
22. Fred Wilson (venture capitalist) - Deletion endorsed. 17:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
23. TheSmartMarks.com - Deletion endorsed. 17:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
24. Dirt pudding - Transwiki and deletion endorsed. 17:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
25. Kirill Makharinsky - Deletion endorsed. 17:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
26. Armando Lloréns-Sar - History restored, maintained as redirect; merge issues are an editorial concern for article's talk page. 17:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
27. Hollywood Undead - Deletion endorsed. 17:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
28. Trexy - Closing administrator agreed to relist AFD. 03:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC) Review
29. Stir of Echoes: The Dead Speak - No consensus closure endorsed. 18:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
30. Knox (animator) - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 18:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
31. Lightsaber combat - Keep closure endorsed. 18:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
32. Stone Trek - Deletion closure endorsed. 18:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
33. File:944 h.jpg - DRV closed, image in Commons jurisdiction. 18:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
34. Sadullah Khan - Undeleted, relisted. 18:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
35. Atromitos - Undeleted. 18:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
36. Walk To Emmaus - Deletion endorsed. 18:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
37. Wikipedia:Conservative notice board. Kept deleted. Strong endorsement. 20:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC) Review.
38. Lost: The Journey - Relisted. 18:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
39. User:Dtm142/User no evil boxes and Template:User Gangster - Undeleted. 18:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
40. The Lost Boys (demogroup) - Relist. 17:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
41. Second War (Harry Potter) - Deletion endorsed. 17:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
42. IRCDig - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
43. Saryn Hooks - Undeleted and relisted at AfD. 17:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
44. Template:Major_programming_languages - template content restored 06:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC) review
45. Strategic Policy Consulting - Deletion endorsed. 16:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC) Review
46. Actuarial Outpost - Kept kept, mistaken nomination. 16:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC) Review
47. Image:WikiPâques.png - Uploaded to Commons, as suggested. 16:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
48. The Esplanade Mall - Deletion endorsed by narrow majority. 16:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
49. Sydney Ling - AfD result of "no consensus" endorsed. 15:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
50. Siberian language - Deletion endorsed. 15:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
51. Burlington Center Mall - Challenge of no consensus afd withdrawn. 02:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
52. Erik Möller - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
53. theSMSzone.com and Kunal Singh - Deletions endorsed. 17:32, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
54. Wikipedia:OURS - Deletion endorsed by narrow majority. 17:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
55. 2001: A Space Odyssey (film synopsis) - Deletion endorsed. 17:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
56. Conservative Underground - Deletion endorsed. 17:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
57. Boring Business Systems - AfD reopened by acclamation. 20:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
58. Joseph D. Campbell - Previous AfD overturned, to be relisted at AfD. 16:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
59. Church of Reality - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 16:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
60. Heinen's - Result reversed by consensus, AfD now closed as "no consensus". 16:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
61. BB Sinha - Restored, listed at AfD. 16:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC) (deleted at AfD 20:27, 17 June 2006 (UTC)) Review
62. Mending Wall - Restored, listed at AfD, closed as keep, brought here again (above). 16:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
63. Cancer Bats - Restored, to be resubmitted to AfD in light of new evidence. 17:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
64. Cum On Her Face - Deletion endorsed. 16:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
65. AlternC - Deletion endorsed. 16:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
66. Tiffany Holiday - Deletion endorsed. 16:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
67. Shane Cubis - Deletion endorsed unanimously (excepting discounted anons/newbies.) 16:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
68. Certainty principle - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 16:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
69. Big Brother 7 chronology - Deletion endorsed. Will userfy upon request. 15:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Review
70. Wikimedia Meta-Wiki - action reverted by the closer. AFD reopened. 03:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Review
71. The Adventures of Dr. McNinja - Consensus to permit userpage draft as new recreation, will be submitted to AfD. 17:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Review
72. Cory kennedy - Deletion endorsed. 17:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Review
73. User:Rgulerdem/Wikiethics - Kept deleted unanimously. 17:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Review
74. Yar - Deletion endorsed without prejudice to unrelated redirect now at title. 17:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
75. List of midnight movies - Content restored for merge and redirect. 17:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
76. AK Productions - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
77. FAST - Fighting Antisemitism Together - Undeleted and sent to AfD. 17:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
78. List of tongue-twisters - Deletion endorsed in light of new Wikiquote transwiki. 17:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
79. User:Raphael1/Wikiethics - Deletion endorsed. 17:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
80. Roosters1908, Sydneyroosters1909, and Sydneyroosters1910 - Undeleted to be AfD'ed in light of new evidence. 17:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
81. National Hockey Leaque player lists - Restored speedily and AFD reopened. 08:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
82. User:AKMask/log - Restored (by a narrow margin) to be sent to MfD. 03:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
83. Male Unbifurcated Garment - Deletion endorsed (again -- Second DRV in two weeks.) 03:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
84. Penis banding - Deletion endorsed. 15:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC) Review
85. Template:User no notability - Deletion narrowly endorsed. (date unavailable, deletion review never archived) Permalink
86. Syed Ahmed - deletion endorsed, redirected to The Apprentice (UK series 2) 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
87. Ho Shin Do - deletion endorsed without prejudice 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
88. Israel News Agency - article content restored 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
89. Delaware County Intermediate Unit - Deletion closure endorsed. 00:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
90. Steve Bellone - Deletion closure endorsed unanimously. 00:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
91. Team NoA - Previous version restored, survived AfD as no consensus. 00:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
92. Springfield M21 - Restored as redirect with history. 16:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
93. The drips - Speedy deletion contested, overturned; sent to AfD. 15:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
94. Template:Voting icons - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 15:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
95. Ali Zafar - New NPOV recreation permitted. 03:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
96. Barbara Bauer, The Literary Agency Group and others - Bauer undeleted and kept at AfD; others kept deleted. 03:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
97. Scienter - deletion overturned. 03:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
98. Auto repair shop - original speedy deletion endorsed, without prejudice to now-existing distinct redirect at this title. 03:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
99. Wikipedia v search engines - deletion endorsed unanimously. 03:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
100. Pat Price - deletion overturned unanimously, no need to relist. 03:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
101. Talk:Brian Peppers - kept deleted. 00:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
102. The Juggernaut Bitch - article content restored 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
103. South Coast League - deletion endorsed 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
104. Other side of the pillow - deletion endorsed 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
105. Joel Leyden - article content restored 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
106. Sharting - deletion endorsed 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
107. User:Disavian/Userboxes/Green Energy - deletion endorsed, narrowly 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
108. Left-wing terrorism - article history restored 17:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
109. Stella Maris College Scout Group - deletion endorsed 17:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
110. List of Michael Savage neologisms - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
111. Superhorse - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
112. Exicornt - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
113. Image:Lock-icon.jpg - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
114. College Confidential - article content restored 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
115. Tim Dingle - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
116. Abstract People - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
117. Christian views of Hanukkah - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
118. Claught of a bird dairy products - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
119. LIP6 - continue from rewritten version 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
120. Hulk 2 - redirected to Hulk (film) for now 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
121. Xombie - article content restored 17:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
122. Possible wars between liberal democracies speedy-deletion undone by deleting admin. listed to AFD. 13:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
123. Gary Howell deletion endorsed. 20:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
124. New Sincerity - deletion endorsed. 20:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
125. Successful Praying - speedy deletion as copyvio endorsed. 20:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
126. Videohypertransference - user copy granted. deletion from articlespace endorsed. 20:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
127. Oz Categories 8 endorse, 5 overturn, deletion endorsed. 17:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC) Review

Userbox discussions

• Template:User no notability - deletion endorsed, narrowly 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
• Template:User organ donor template content restored 17:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
• User:CharonX/Userboxes/User christian See WP:TGS
• Template:User satanist kept deleted
• Template:User cannabis kept deleted
• Template:User CCP - kept deleted. 00:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
• Template:User against fox hunting (result keep deleted, WP:SNOW. Massive endorsement.)

Archives

• Wikipedia:Deletion review/Recently concluded (2006 May)
• Wikipedia:Deletion review/Recently concluded (2006 April)

Proposed deletions

Articles deleted under the Wikipedia:Proposed deletion procedure (using the {{PROD}} tag) may be undeleted, without a vote, on reasonable request. Any admin can be asked to do this, alternatively a request may be made here. However, such undeleted articles are open to be speedy deleted or nominated for WP:AFD under the usual rules.

• none currently listed

This page is about articles, not about people. If you feel that a sysop is routinely deleting articles prematurely, or otherwise abusing their powers, please discuss the matter on the user's talk page, or at Wikipedia talk:Administrators. If you nominate an article here, be sure to make a note on the sysop's user talk page regarding your nomination. A template, {{subst:DRVNote}} is available to make this easier.

Similarly, if you are a sysop and an article you deleted is subsequently undeleted, please don't take it as an attack.

Proposed deletions

Articles deleted under the Wikipedia:Proposed deletion procedure (using the {{PROD}} tag) may be undeleted, without a vote, on reasonable request. Any admin can be asked to do this, alternatively a request may be made here. However, such undeleted articles are open to be speedy deleted or nominated for WP:AFD under the usual rules.

• none currently listed

Instructions

Before listing a review request, please:

1. Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
2. Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.

Steps to list a new deletion review

1.	Click here and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the page, xfd_page with the name of the deletion discussion page (leave blank for speedy deletions), and reason with the reason why the discussion result should be changed. For media files, article is the name of the article where the file was used, and it shouldn't be used for any other page. For example: {{subst:drv2 |page=File:Foo.png |xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png |article=Foo |reason= }} ~~~~
2.	Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page: {{subst:DRV notice|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~
3.	For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach <noinclude>{{Delrev|date=2024 May 15}}</noinclude> to the top of the page under review to inform current editors about the discussion.
4.	Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion: If the deletion discussion's subpage name is the same as the deletion review's section header, use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 May 15}}</noinclude> If the deletion discussion's subpage name is different from the deletion review's section header, then use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 May 15|page=SECTION HEADER AT THE DELETION REVIEW LOG}}</noinclude>

Commenting in a deletion review

Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:

• Endorse the original closing decision; or
• Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
• List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
• Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
• Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
• Some consider it a courtesy, to other DRV participants, to indicate your prior involvements with the deletion discussion or the topic.

Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted:

• *'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~
• *'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~
• *'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~
• *'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~

Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.

The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.

Temporary undeletion

Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}} template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.

Closing reviews

A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.

If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:

• If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
• If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.

Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)

Speedy closes

• Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
• Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
• Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
• Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".

14 June 2006

Lost: The Journey

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lost: The Journey
• Overturn and delete. The final tally was six deletes, one transwiki, one merge/delete, and one keep. However, closing admin Lar (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) decided to act on his own initiative to countermand the consensus, stating instead there was no consensus because he felt that the one "keep" vote's reasoning was strong enough. I frankly don't follow his logic or understand what he found so notable about the one keep vote, but I think he's enforcing his own opinion over the decided-upon community consensus with this article, and thus appeal his decision here (as he invited people to do when closing the decision). — Mike • 02:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • A review of Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators#Rough consensus does not appear to yield any means by which seven out of nine votes — votes that were very clearly not made in bad faith — can be entirely discarded by the closing admin. — Mike • 03:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• I welcome review of this one, because it was dicey for me when I made the call. I acknowledge that numerically, the margin was wide. I don't think any of the comments (NOT votes) were made in bad faith at all, and didn't diacount the sentiments, but I was quite convinced by the argument made by ArgentiumOutlaw and after all, this is a judgement call, not a nose count. Naturally I think I got to the right outcome and would say Keep kept. But I welcome input from my peers, and thank you in advance for it. (BTW I'm excited, because this is my first DRV!) ++Lar: t/c 03:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I mean this respectfully, but when reviewing the Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators document, I did not see anything within the document, barring bad faith situations, that allows an administrator to ignore the principle of rough consensus when making a decision closing a document. There is the paragraph that begins, "Some opinions can override all others," but the examples cited (copyvio, userfy, WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV) do not seem to apply to the votes comments cast. — Mike • 03:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I have some learnings from this I'll be posting later as well as more responses but I'll let some of those sit. I do have one thing I want to point out which you'll just have to take my word for. Several commenters here are saying I let my personal feeling convince me how to close. Well, in part, that's where judgement does need to come in, on a close call, add in your own feeling... that's sometimes right and proper in my view (if the alternative is to relist for consensus the third time or do nothing, for example). But in this case, my PERSONAL view, had I chose to commment (on a 5 day overdue for close nom) instead of close... would have been DELETE. Clips are a bit more notable than regular episodes but I do not think any show, even this one, needs an article for every episode. I overlooked that view, because thought at the time that the fact that MedCab/Com was working on this was a reason not to rush this, leave it around, and let them resolve it later. (others below point out that's not necessarily a really good reason...). Also, the medcab argument was made late in the discussion. Arguments made late, if not commented on by people that commented before they were aware of the facts, tend to carry more weight with me when judging consensus. And make no mistake, I was judging consensus without taking my personal desire to delete into account. If this goes back on AfD I'll leave it to someone else to close, so I can comment DELETE. I just don't think that was the right thing to do in view of the mediation thing. If it gets overturned, I'll delete it myself and happily, unless someone beats me to it. One BIG learning I have from this already is the need to explain in more detail when necessary (check out Splash's Phil Sandifer close explanation, it's a model. I hope to be that good someday)... ++Lar: t/c 16:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete, I fail to see what was so strong about the one keep comment that ruled out six delete comments. (Disclaimer: I voted delete in the AfD in question.) BryanG^(talk) 03:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • comment Seven, actually. There was a merge/delete in there. — Mike • 03:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not really a valid vote. You can't merge *and* delete, the edit history needs to be preserved. Closers typically count those as keep votes, since they wanted to keep the content, just didn't understand the finer points of the GFDL. Transwiki votes go as keeps too, while we're at it, since the person also wanted to keep the content. --W.marsh 03:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

And that's why I didn't count the merge/delete vote, although looking at it again I would interpret it as "merge if considered useful or delete". But then, I'm not an admin. It wasn't a straight delete comment anyway, so I'm not counting it as such. BryanG^(talk) 03:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks W.marsh. SO if we ARE insisting on counting votes here, it's 6:3. That's 66% which is a Keep No Consensus. I have a couple of other bones to pick here... first, Mike you keep talking about good faith, and I wish you would stop, because I saw no comments I judged to be in bad faith. Second, you keep citing the Deletion Guideline like it's a process that cannot be deviated from. It's not the law, it's a guide... and we admins are asked to use our judgement. I hope you have internalised that before you become an admin yourself. Third, you suggest I'm "enforcing my own opinion"... "countermanding consensus"... that's not at all fair, those terms are quite loaded, in my view anyway. What I did was look at the arguments made, look at the article and its contents, and made a considered judgement that there wasn't a consensus to delete. That's what the closing admin is supposed to do. This article was 4 days overdue for a decision and I've been thinking about it for some time (I looked at a lot of these on my lunch hour). I also asked some of my admin colleauges on IRC for their thoughts and they agreed with me that K-NC was the right outcome. I'm hopeful that some of them will pop in here. Maybe I'm wrong though and this really was a Delete. I'd like to learn from it if that's the case... but telling me to read something that's a guide, and that I've already read, isn't going to help me learn. ++Lar: t/c 03:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

First, I am citing good faith solely in the context of the deletion guidelines citing bad faith as a valid reason to delete. I am not applying the concept of good or bad faith to your actions. I am bringing it up solely in the context of citing the relevant policy and guidelines that address the actions you take when closing a vote.

Second, I would again repeat my request for any Wikipedia policy or document that provides administrators with the freedom to use their judgment to make a decision that goes against rough consensus when making deletion closures. The relevant cites I can find indicate that in the deletion policy, it states, "At the end of the discussion, if a rough consensus for deletion has been reached, the page will be removed per Wikipedia:Deletion process; otherwise the page remains." Rough consensus is defined as outlined in this subsection, with a link to this Wikipedia article.

Third, were we to make the case that a vote, through some improper terminology, should not be included, it should not be included in the total when considering what proportion of the votes are delete votes. In other words, it is not that six out of nine votes were cast to delete, it is that six out of seven votes (85%) were cast to delete. But I really don't agree with those figures, either. That leads me into ...

Fourth, I disagree that the merge/delete vote should not be counted. The text of that vote states, "Merge anything useful into the main Lost article ... otherwise Delete if there is nothing that editors of that article consider to be useful." I believe the text of that vote quite effectively counts as a delete vote. That would make this seven out of eight votes (87.5%).

— Mike • 04:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure well within his discretion, especially considering you can argue that the votes were 3/9 in favor of keeping, and that's a marginal consensus to delete at best. Lar probably should have just said "no consensus" though - since that is different than closing as a pure keep (now more than ever, see the recent changes to Wikipedia:Speedy keep). --W.marsh 03:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Point of information, it was a Keep No Consensus not a pure keep. Both the close in AfD and the notice on the article talk say Keep No Consensus... ++Lar: t/c 03:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure I don't see anything particularly wrong with it. The article is bare, but this aired on ABC and Lost has lots of viewers. That lends enough notability that it can be mentioned somewhere imo, and AFD is not the best place to decide merging. Kotepho 04:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • comment You're commenting on content, not on process — see above: "Remember that Deletion Review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the (action) specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate." — Mike • 04:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  I did both and there is plenty of commenting on content to go around on DRV. Kotepho 04:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Then I'd ask whatever admin who will review these items and make a decision to ignore your response, given that you're explicitly and self-admittedly not going by WP:DRV policy. — Mike • 04:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: This has also been listed on today's AfD page (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lost: The Journey (second nomination)). As far as I see, there has been no consensus to relist, so I've asked for it to be speedily closed pending the results of this DRV. BryanG^(talk) 04:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete - with all due respect to the closing admin, I reread ArgentiumOutlaw's point on AFD and I do not see what is convincing about it. He points out that the writer did a good job and that mediators are debating what to do with individual episode articles. Well, as to the first point, a "good job" is not a bar to deletion and as to the second point, unless I'm missing something, this is not an episode. For the benefit of those above debating my "merge and delete" vote (opinion, whatever), I didn't say "merge and delete". Please reread my comment. I said "Merge anything useful ... otherwise delete". In other words, "merge OR delete", not "merge AND delete". BigDT 04:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. I, too, fail to see what is so overwhelming about the sole keep vote, and part of the admin's comment -- I'd keep a clip show before a random episode, if I were commenting -- means that a peculiar personal preference was used as part of the reasoning. --Calton | Talk 05:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, solid explanation from closing admin plus the fact that articles of this nature (major television episodes) are generally kept or merged. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist or delete. Only one keep vote, and its reasoning is extremely weak ("this is a well-written article" does not make the topic noteworthy, and "we're still discussing it" does not make it noteworthy either!); yes, admins are expected to use their judgment, not a raw votecount, to determine consensus, but this was a dubious closure.
• I'd have preferred if Lar had voted, rather than closing the discussion, since he clearly had a distinct opinion in his own right which, even if valid, didn't correspond to that of any of the users involved. Too often admins will close Deletion discussions in accordance with however they would have voted, rather than in accordance with the discussion itself. If your interpretation of what should be done with the article is unusual enough that people will be surprised by how you close the discussion, you'd probably be better off joining the discussion, so people can read and respond to your reasoning first, rather than just cutting it off with your opinion as the "last word". -Silence 05:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment There were two points I was making when I voted to Keep. The second point I made was that the article shouldnt have been up for deletion, if you see Requests for mediation, you'll see that there is a mediation committee voting to determine whether or not "Lost episodes each deserve an individual article". If they decide on keeping all episodes in one big article, then the committee will override any AFD decisions made on that one article. Same with the opposite case (ie if they decide every episode deserves a seperate article). Their decision may actually make any decision we reach here useless. Ignoring that, the first reason I gave for keeping, was that I thought the information there was thorough, accurate, and useful. As for the final outcome of keep on the AFD, I personally think we should put aside our "common sense" and go with the majority vote, 'but' through all of my experiences with AFDs and the like, I've realized that in wikipedia votes don't really matter, discussion and consensus determines the victor. I wouldn't dare say that my argument is more sensible than the opposing side because they made an equally legitimate point. So it's really a judgment call on which side brought up the more solid argument. ArgentiumOutlaw 06:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • In the absence of a mediation ruling, you can still preserve the solo article in your user space. In either outcome, you would need to have the information at hand. However, no one part of the deliberative process can overturn another, as they should have different targets. The mediation is about whether in the future/final form, there should be a single or breakout presentation and shouldn't be concerned with "should this particular article be deleted." AfD shouldn't be saying anything much about whether the future should look like X or Y, but rather judging a single article in terms of the deletion policy. I.e. during a mediation, pretty much everything should have gone into a sort of escrow space. Geogre 12:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Delete. Closing comments an absolutely travesty. "We don't nose count" so I'm siding with a minority of one". Ridiculous. -- GWO
• Overturn and Delete - Should have taken part in the discussion rather than just closed with his own saintly admin view. - Hahnchen 09:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. Everyone knows I don't nose-count either, but there was a clear consensus for deletion. It is not the case that the 'merge and delete' and 'transwiki' opinions could count as 'keep'. "Transwiki" means "This shouldn't be on Wikipedia" and "Merge and delete" means "Some of this might belong in the main article but not here", and both amount to "This Wikipedia article should not exist". The sole keep argument wasn't remotely close to being powerful enough to overturn the near-unanimous consensus. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 09:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete as supported by all credible arguments to policy & guidelines in the AfD; transwiki to Lostpedia if GFDL compatibility allows and if they want it. Just zis Guy you know? 12:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Delete Reliance on single keep argument unconvincing Bwithh 12:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Delete I voted to transwiki in the original AfD thinking that it was possible to transwiki to Lostpedia. Apparantly it is not, so you can count my vote as a delete in the original AfD. —Mets501 (talk) 12:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn: Lar was acting within his scope, but my feeling is that the article was weak enough or damaged enough that, at the very least, the article could not exist in that form and at that location and pass peer review in terms of the deletion policy. Sometimes we have to say, "Wikipedians are wrong, but we'll do the delete and work on getting the information presented in a better or more logical way." This would be one of those cases: people voting on AfD could be entirely wrong, but, in the absence of something really crazy, their wrong position should probably prevail. Geogre 12:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Clarification: my vote was the overturn and delete after the article is copied into user space pending the outcome of the mediation. I.e. delete, because AfD was clear, but I recommend that the authors and involved parties hold the material. We had a not dissimilar situation with articles on every cricket match in a year. Geogre 16:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. The closure statement makes clear that, rather than acting within discretion on the merits of the debate, the admin was effectively imposing his own views on it instead. Should have participated in it, in that case. Furthermore, the arguments to delete are easily as compelling as the argument given to keep, and though we don't nose count, we do pay attention to the reasons why a number of people may have reached the same conclusion. I should also say that I don't think a wriggle of "no consensus" applies here. There's an obvious enough consensus among the participants, it's just that the admin didn't like it too much. If Lar wanted to spin the debate his way, he should probably simply have declared a straight "keep". I just discovered from User talk:Lar that Lar discussed this with others in IRC. That's fine, but one should remember that being trendy and brutal and treating AfD as a stupid bunch of idiots is extremely fashionable there, and that decisions made based on who goes "yay" to earn a laugh on IRC are generally decisions made poorly and in haste. -Splash - tk 12:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete, as per Mike and others above. It seems that a consensus in favor of deletion was ingnored. PJM 13:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist on AfD, AfD isn't a straw count and no good reason was advanced for deletion. IMO, closing admin probably did the right thing. Still, retention/deletion could be argued either way... recommend a fresh AfD.--Isotope23 15:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete; I agree with Lar that 1 suggestion can override seven other ones. However, I do not find this particular one convincing at all. - Liberatore(T) 15:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Notice: The article has now substantially been re-written to address the issues it previously had, excising the Original Research, and adding verifiable, sourced content. It is no longer the same article that was AfDed.--Leflyman^Talk 17:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Second War (Harry Potter)

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Second War (Harry Potter)

User:CambridgeBayWeather deleted article Second War (Harry Potter) on the grounds of not going against consensus. I read the arguments and the most prominent one was that the imformation can be found on other characters' biographic articles. While that is true, a through article on the history of the First and Second War of the Potter series is appropriate, if not essential, since the overlying plot of the series deals with Voldemort against the rest of the Wizarding world. In books five and six in particular, where the Second War begins and continues, two battles occur that will have continued ramifications to the last book to be released next year. A record of this entire episode I think would be appropriate to cite all further development to come and expand once the series is complete. User:Throw

• Having read all the Potter books multiple times, I recall no reference to a "second war". Perhaps you could cite the page numbers where it is referred to as such? Just zis Guy you know? 12:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Last chapter of OOTP is titled "The Second War Begins". Regards, MartinRe 12:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Oh, wow, so we have a whole article based essentially on a throwaway line? None of the characters refer to the "war", "first war" or "second war" do they? Just zis Guy you know? 12:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. Nothing out of process here. It was deleted through AfD on the 9th, then reposted and deleted on the 13th. To see what the 1st War and 2nd War articles look like, see User:Fbv65edel/Keep!. Metros232 12:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. (after edit conflict) Looks like a valid AfD with reasonable arguments and very strong consensus. CambridgeBayWeather deleted it as recreation of a deleted article. -- SCZenz 12:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion valid afd, hence valid g4 Regards, MartinRe 12:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion, per above. PJM
• Endorse deletion, absolutely lawful deletion. MaxSem 15:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion Valid afd. OhNoitsJamie^Talk 18:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion per all. Disclosure: I am the AfD nominator. Note to Throw: this stuff will all be moved to Wikibooks by User:Fbv65edel. Work on it there instead. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 20:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. User:Throw copied and pasted everything on User:Fbv65edel/Keep! and pasted it to his/her own user page. Is that okay or not under the GFDL? It doesn't preserve the history and contributions since he did it in one fell swoop. The same goes for Fbv65edel's subpage which seems to be just copied and pasted too. Metros232 03:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That violates GFDL. I've left a note on User talk:Fbv65edel that if they want the content for private use in preparing other content I or another admin will fish it out for them; meanwhile I'm afraid I call that a copyvio. Just zis Guy you know? 15:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

13 June 2006

User:Dtm142/User no evil boxes and Template:User Gangster

These were both deleted out of process by Drini. They were taken to tfd, but had a keep consensus and were closed. He claims to have deleted it because he followed the official policy, but it doesn't meet the Deletion policy. See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 June 4 and Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 June 5. No evil boxes was also closed because of defective listing. See this edit. They do not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, and the debates both resulted in a keep. Dtm142 22:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

as my comments were requested. I did quote policy and followed it. -- Drini 19:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Further explanation. There are some policies that are more fundamental than others (recall the five pillars) ? I followed them and thus I stand that I didn't act out of policy. If the lower policies are in contradiction with the fundamental ones, the fundamental ones take precedence.-- Drini 20:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

To which fundamental policy do you refer? Be specific, please; I'm not a mind reader, and could not locate where you quoted policy in the deletion for the second (the deletion log just says "tfd"). Jay Maynard 22:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 June 4. He quoted the policies there. Reguardless, it was out of process. Dtm142 22:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

We're trying to end this userbox war with a community compromise, not have you look for reasons to delete stuff. If it doesn't meet the speedy deletion criteria or deletion policy, it doesn't get deleted. Dtm142 22:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete on the first and put the 2nd one up for user space adoption by someone who was linking to it. Here we go again. Guess I was a fool to hope that WP:GUS would calm the deletionists down. --StuffOfInterest 22:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and MfD the first because it had two parallel reviews going on on separate MfD dates. The closing admin for the June 5 version (Xoloz) attempted to close both as an unsalvagable mess, but somehow that closure became disassociated with the June 4 review. The June 5 closure contained an explicit note that keep was the likely result of a clean nomination and review. Having two simultateous reviews with opposite conclusions is reason enough to send it back for a single combined review, having two closures with opposite conclusions for a single review is also enough to send it back, and we have both here.. Overturn, undelete, and leave alone for the second, because it has survived two separate TfD reviews in the past month. (See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 May 24 for the first TfD discussion, which was referenced in the second.) GRBerry 22:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Endorse for the second, when I tried to multi-task I got it wrong. The closers rationale isn't enough reason to prevent WP:GUS, but the argument by Nhprman was a better argument for deletion than any of the keep arguments (as the prior TfD closed with no consensus rather than a clear keep consensus). GRBerry 23:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete. Weren't we just here? Why are admins trying to torpedo the German userbox solution?? Jay Maynard 22:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • ...and, yes, I'll support move User Gangster to userspace, per WP:GUS. Jay Maynard 00:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete both, move User Gangster to userspace per WP:GUS. We try to navigate out of the userbox mess and to find a compromise (following Jimbo's suggestion) when suddendly some admins start torpedoing the entire effort. CharonX/talk 23:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete follow the German solution (supported by Jimbo as compromise). No reason for the deletion as they don't meet T1. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 00:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• undelete both of these please find a better compramise Yuckfoo 01:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete both and move the second to user space, per WP:GUS —Mira 02:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• The former was already in userspace. Dtm142 02:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, I know. I said move the second one to user space. —Mira 02:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep deleted No evil. T1/G4 (Tony Sidaway). Kotepho 02:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  G4 does not apply for recreating a deleted userbox in userspace. T1 does not apply in userspace. Dtm142 03:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  1) Yes, it does. Read the rfar. 2) Yes, it does. This is a logical extention of the rfar. (If something is inappropriate enough that if it was deleted in Template: it should not be recreated in User:, anything that would meet said criteria would still be inappropriate in User: even had it not been deleted in Template: previously.) Saying "no it doesn't" is not going to convince anyone and it does not make it true. Kotepho 03:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete and deal with per WP:GUS. Kotepho, I wouldn't argue that these boxes can't be speedied - they certainly can - but I would argue that they shouldn't be, if the goal is to end the userbox controversy with a minimum of collateral damage. -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  Changing my vote to relist on MfD for the first and endorse deletion for the second. I should have looked more carefully at first; what a crap box. Thanks Kimchi.sg, for caling attention to that. I'd vote to delete either on MfD or TfD, but only the first one deserves its week there. Refraining from speedying all but the most egregious boxes would be a great good-faith gesture on the part of userbox deletionists. The gangster box though, really has no redeeming value. -GTBacchus^(talk) 07:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Let me just say ... oh thank god I don't care about this shit anymore. It's sooooo much more relaxing. Ohh, you all should try it, I'm in heaven over here. --Cyde↔Weys 03:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Undelete both, and Userfy the second one per WP:GUS. jgp 04:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first, WP:GUS Relist (TfD) the second one, and Remove Drini's admin rights for a week or two while we implement WP:GUS. _{No offense meant, Drini.} —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 07:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem I'm used to people calling for admins desysopping for doing The Right Thing (TM) and following policy.

• Question. Does T1 apply in userspace or not? I'm seeing conflicting opinions on that issue. Anyone care to back theirs up with a link? Either way, T1 doesn't apply to the first one at all. —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 07:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  There are different 'interpretations'. T1 became policy without sitting through the normal proposal and consensus procedures because it was endorsed by Jimbo. Jimbo has repeatedly said that the 'problem' is that things in the template namespace might be considered to be 'supported' by Wikimedia, and thus userboxes stating a disputed viewpoint should be moved to user space. Since 'T1' became policy because Jimbo said it should I don't see how it can be 're-interpreted' to mean something directly contradictory to Jimbo's position and still retain it's validity as a policy. The alternate view is apparently that you cannot transclude disputed viewpoints... you can have them directly on your user page, but not transcluded in from a sub-page in user space or anywhere else. This is based on an interpretation of the word 'template' in T1 being meant to cover 'anything transcluded' rather than 'things in the Template: namespace' as Jimbo has advocated. But then, Jimbo also said, "don't go on any sprees deleting", and we've seen how well some people listened to that. --CBDunkerson 16:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete. MaxSem 06:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist the first on MfD and keep deleted and prohibit userspace creation of Template:Gangster. "This user is a gangster" is a statement which has strong intimidating overtones (unlike "This user is a homosexual" or even "This user hates the EFF") and I would protest even if one were to just write it on his user page in plain form. Template:Gangster goes beyond the acceptable bounds of good taste and should not be retained even in user space. Kimchi.sg 06:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  Which policy, aside from T1 or G4, does the second violate? If there's something besides those two, then I'll support deleting it. Jay Maynard 12:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete per above.  Grue  06:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy undelete first, germanize gangster and be done with it. Misza13 ^{T C} 08:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first. Keep the second deleted - the second one was in template space and was fair game for deletion. If someone wants to userfy it they should feel free to do so. There are admins who will assist. Metamagician3000 11:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first per WP:GUS, Endorse deletion the 2nd. Gangster template is simply unacceptable. --WinHunter ^(talk) 11:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first and Userify the second per WP:DEUTSCH. — CJewell (talk to me) 14:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - Deletions were out of process and contradictory to apparent consensus at TfD/MfD. Seemingly no applicable policy for deletion. --CBDunkerson 16:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and userfy if necessary. Nobody who has been paying attention here would have expected these speedies to go unchallenged - and thus they were improper speedy deletions. Please remember --Speedy Deletion is not a Toy 22:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

for the record, it wasn't a speedy deletion (if you look at that definition) it was just a normal deletion, where I applied fundamental policies to close a TFD. Can people stop callign this a speedy? Nowadays people just like to say it without stopping to consider that. For it to have been a speedy, I would have to delete on sight as I saw it withouth doing the whole TFD thing. 00:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It was an out of process deletion. They were already closed with a keep consensus and a defective listing before you closed them again and deleted them. Fundamental policies can be referenced during a tfd, but to determine the outcome, you look at what the community says and the deletion policies. I don't care if you delete it if it goes through an mfd with a delete consensus. Dtm142 01:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Any deletion which does not come as the result of an unchallenged 'prod' or consensus in a delete discussion is, by default, a 'speedy' delete... taken solely on the perogative of the admin performing the deletion without implied (per 'prod') or direct (per '*fD') consensus. As to your citation of the pillars - your action violates pillar four for certain (acting directly contrary to consensus is not 'cooperative') and is as much against pillar one (in that starting pointless fights over window dressing disrupts building the encyclopedia) as for it (in that the boxes in question did not build the encyclopedia). --CBD 10:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete 1st & Userify 2nd as mentioned a few times. --Scandalous 02:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and Userfy as per what Jimbo says is reasonable about the German solution. The idea that Drini could close so many TfD's with a generic closing message about the five pillars when really they were not for one, all relevant, and two, all followed by the action. Ansell 11:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

IRCDig

This article was deleted due to notability claims that were false. IRCDig is just as notable, if not more notable than most torrent search engine articles wikipedia decides to keep. The deletion discussion was split amongst keep and delete votes. The article followed all criteria for a valid article and then some. This article was incorrectly afd'd and should be re-instated. The supporters of deletion argued that the author was the only one that had contributed to the article but what they failed to realize was that the article was only like a week old. LOL... I discovered it when it was in it's afd discussion and contributed a keep vote and would have contributed to the article if I would have had time to see it. KernelPanic 17:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• AfD here. Whether the website is truly notable or not, this is a textbook proper close. Endorse closure unless notability can be accurately verified. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • And what is the official wikipedia process for verifying notability? You say it was a text book closure whether the site is notable or not then you say you endorse the closure until the notability can be accurately verified? Which one is it? If wikipedia is going to allow it's admins to delete articles due to notability then there needs to be a clear and concise process for verifying notability. Until this happens, it is completely open to personal interpretation, which is ALWAYS going to be a mistake due to personal biases. KernelPanic 19:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Not "until," "unless." I'll gladly petition to overturn the closure if you can provide some sort of evidence that this is a notable thing. The "admins" didn't delete this, as much as a consensus by a not-insignificant number of fellow editors felt deletion was the correct path, and no claim was made by you or the other editor stating keep to make any sort of notability evident. I'm one of the most inclusive editors on here, and I'm not even convinced that this program is worth an article at this stage. Seriously, prove me wrong and I change my view. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. Show us how it meets the standards of WP:WEB "the official wikipedia process for verifying notability" as you requested. This means independent news coverage and/or awards for the site. Lots of Google hits does not make something notable. My username gets 13,300 hits...am I notable? Metros232 19:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • In the same respect, using Alexa as a source of showing something as being not notable is not an accurate method either, which is what the afd argument was based on. There are numerous articles about ircdig and numerous other discussions on independant news groups, message boards, etc. You can use the very same google search you condemned to find these artcles. I agree that the amount of information that google has indexed on a particular thing does not make it notable, but I would say that over 3000 uniques a day from over 115 different countries does. Was this article really clutterinh up wikipedia so much, or offending other editors so much that it just had to be removed? wikipedia has become a joke. Now I know why so many people talk trash about it. It is full of a bunch of immature kids who like to try and use their so called "power" to dictate what articles say and what articles even exist. Keep it deleted if it makes you that happy. It is not even worth the argument anymore. The owner of ircdig told me that he only received like 2 or 3 hits a day from the article anyway. Maybe wikipedia is not that notable in the end. Maybe you should delete your entire site according to your own regulations. The only press I see about wikipedia is negative press (Criticism of Wikipedia). Does that make it notable? KernelPanic 19:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Lately all the press that George W. Bush gets is negative, is he still notable? :) And to think, I'm a Republican and yet I make that kinda statement. None of the Google hits I see are news articles. This is the closest [9]. There's also one that's a press release from IRCDig. The first one is not a reliable source and press releases don't count for notability.

The owner of ircdig told me that he only received like 2 or 3 hits a day from the article anyway. Maybe wikipedia is not that notable in the end.

Or could it be that no one's looking for the article because it's not notable? The amount of hits he gets on his site from our article matters so little to our consideration of whether or not to keep an article since we're not a source of advertisement for websites. Metros232 19:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. Relisting to generate more discussion would have been a viable alternative, but the two keep commentators both are new enough contributors and had weak enough points that ignoring their presence is a reasonable decision on the part of the closing admin. Nothing in the AfD or the discussion above asserts that the article met WP:WEB, the topic specific notability guideline. The bit about "only received like 2 or 3 hits a day from the article" indicates that the article was viewed as an advertisement. Advertisements are a direct violation of Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a section of one of the basic policies. As to the other torrent sites, if they are truly not worthy of being kept, their articles will go to eventually. No hurry, but consistency is not required, and taking our time has benefits. GRBerry 20:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse Closure Properly closed, did not assert notability. -M^ask 20:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. No evidence of notability, and the fact of an article not being advertising is not sufficient grounds to keep it when there is clearly not enough reliable external coverage to ensure neutrality. Just zis Guy you know? 20:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. Nothing was previously said that made it convincing that the site has any notabilility at all, and nothing has yet been added. The AfD's closure was within normal procedure. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 00:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse close, as there is no significant new information to overturn previous consensus at the AFD. Titoxd^(?!?) 00:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Mending Wall

This discussion was finished rather buptly mid-debate. The problem is that many are misunderstanding the copyright law, confused by a badly worded WP policy. There is a differnece between the copyright on an imprint and the copyright on he content. This poem (which is substantially quoted from) remains within copyright until 70 years after teh death of teh author - it is only a particular imprint of it that can go out of copyright before that. The poem's inculsion on Wikisource and the large quote on WP break copyright. If the WP policy is wrong/badly worded it needs to be changed. WP and WS are currently breaking copyright - and I suspect on several other copyright pieces too. Robertsteadman 16:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I did close the debate a few hours early on three grounds: 1.) There was a consensus to keep, unlikely to change; 2.) the poem is extraordinarily well-known in the US, and is regularly taught in high-school English classes across the country (how do I know? Why, I come from a loooong line of English teachers from all across the country, really) 3.) As I explained to Mr. Steadman at his talk, his understanding of copyright law is incorrect (for which, see his talk page.)

If I wanted to, I could simply say that I ignored opinions known to be in error, and found the debate unanimous. Really, though, even taking Steadman's criticisms at their face-value, there was a consensus to keep -- the discussion to remove the poem's text is editorial, as it is already transwikied. Xoloz 16:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid that your assertion about copyright is incorrect. Copyright on artistic works, in Europe and the US, last for 70 years after teh death oif the authjor and the date of publication is irrelvant. To have such a substantial quote from the poem, at best, stretchs the law and, in my opinion, is a breach of copyright. Certainly the wikisource full use is illegal. I'd love to see a citation for the "extremely well known"-nbess of the poem. One phrase may be well known - in which case the article should be about the phrase not the poem. The only reason the debate wasn't going to change is becaiuse (a) it wasn't given the chance to and (b) false informnation about the notability of the poem and the copyright situaton swayed people. A very sad state of affairs when WP admins are allowing WP to break the law. Robertsteadman 17:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Mr Steadman, you correctly state US law as it applies today to items published today. Historically, prior to a series of treaties throughout the 1980's, the US law did not give a whit for the author's lifetime. All of this is recounted in full detail at the US Copyright Law article. The newer laws now in force do not apply to Mending Wall, because by the time of their active date, its copyright had already lapsed under the old law. It is unfortunate that you refuse to relent in falsing suggesting Wikipedia is a violating the law. Discerning the copyright of works published in the US between 1923 and 1978 is a confusing process, by reason of the changing law, and occupies an entire course in modern American law school curriculum. Prior to 1923, all published works in the US, by necessity of the operation of law in effect at the time, had their copyrights lapse prior to the enactment of current law. Since my word, and the sources at the WP article, do not convince you, I suggest you take this matter up with Foundation lawyer User:Brad Patrick. He will tell you what I have, in much better detail than I can (since intellectual property is not my area of daily practice): you are incorrect, and WP is within the law. I respect your right to disagree, however wrong you are; but please refrain from suggesting that Wikipedia is breaking the law, for its counsel is very bright, and it is well within the law. Xoloz 18:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

As for notability, the mere fact it is a Robert Frost poem justifies a stub's existence, but I can have references for you shortly.

• Endorse closure. Take to copyright problems if you really think it's a problem, I accept the evidence above that it is not. I am compelled to wonder once again if User:Robertsteadman and User:Robsteadman are related. Just zis Guy you know? 20:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. If it was in fact published in 1914, there is no problem. See, among other sources, UPenn's guide here. By the way, was I the only one who thought of this poem when senator Jeff Sessions said, with regard to plans to build five hundred or so miles of Berlin-Wall-like fencing,"Good fences make good neighbors, fences don't make bad neighbors?" Ignoring, of course, the point that there's a difference between a co-operative fence maintained jointly by two neighbors and a unilateral fence... Unless I'm missing something, Mexico isn't offering to pay for half of this border fence. But I digress. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. Even if User:Robertsteadman were correct in saying that the poem was still subject to copyright, we could just revert the article to a non-infringing version. And if the poem is in the public domain, we don't have a problem at all. --Metropolitan90 01:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment The ever-amazing BD2412, who does IP for a living, quickly cited this source, a current US government circular, which plainly lays that issue to rest. Praise BD! Xoloz 06:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse: AfD and DRV are not the proper venues for changing Wikipedia's general understanding of copyright. The poem is, of course, very well known and is, in fact, one of those poems that people who don't know poetry will have read (because they were forced to). Now, don't ask me how I loathe Robert Frost, but don't ask me to want the article deleted because one person thinks the whole project's vision of copyright should yield to his own. Geogre 12:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. If we're all wrong about the copyright status of this poem, and Project Gutenberg is too, I think the only recourse Mr. Steadman has is to Foundation legal counsel, as Xoloz suggests. Alleged non-notability is not a good reason to bring this article here; there were arguments made on both sides at the AfD, and there was no consensus to delete. I am very much hoping this is the last I see of this issue. -- SCZenz 12:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse - how on earth did anyone even consider deleting an article about what is by common knowledge one of the most famous modern poems in the English language? Metamagician3000 04:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Saryn Hooks

Article was AfD'd today, and deleted speedily per A7 after only three votes. Article certainly asserts notability, and frankly, I would have voted Keep.

Content was, more or less, "Saryn Hooks, of Taylorsville,North Carolina, placed third in the Scripps Howard National Spelling Bee. She was reinstated after the judges realized they had the incorrect spelling of hechsher. She is fourteen years old and hopes to become a doctor."

Recommend undeletion and relisting at AfD. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 15:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Abstain for the moment. Coming third in a spelling bee is certainly not an impressive claim of notability. The judges got her word wrong? Woop de do, I don't think that'll be up there with the Mano de Dios in the Top 100 Shocking Sporting Moments on Channel 4. However, I'm not quite prepared to say that this should be snowballed, hence the abstention. It wouldn't have killed anyone to let this run its course. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 15:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Couldn't this detail simply be merged into the article for the Scripps Howard National Spelling Bee as a bit of interesting trivia? --StuffOfInterest 15:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Because it's not very interesting? If it had affected the outcome of the game it would be important, but the girl went out anyway. Looking at the article, I don't see anywhere obvious to insert a mention, and it seems like a very inconsequential thing to start a new '==Trvia==' section with. But if you can do better than I, you don't have to wait for the article to be undeleted to edit the Scripps Howard National Spelling Bee article. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 15:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Technically, any subject could be merged into another article as a short blurb rather than a real article, but that doesn't really do us justice. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and complete AFD The reinstatement is also an assertion of notability. How often does a reinstatement occur? Without knowing this, which only an AFD discussion can address, we can't tell if there is notability. GRBerry 15:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Why go to lengths - participation and high placement themselves are assertions of notability! - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 15:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn, undelete, reopen AFD A claim of notability necessitates an AFD. --Rob 15:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist, certainly not an A7. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. It's not fair for me to vote since I deleted it, but I just wanted to say that this met speedy deletion criteria in my view. I am not opposed to letting the AFD run its course if that is the outcome of this review.--Kungfu Adam ^(talk) 15:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist per nom. BoojiBoy 18:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist per nominator. Silensor 19:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Reviewing the articles on some of the winners of this competition, they would be far better combined a single article (and this one with them). Unless and until they achieve some lasting notability, an article which says that X attended foo school, won a spelling bee one year, and since then has not been mentioned in any reliable sources, would be a clear and unambiguous delete for any adult. I can't believe we're even considering keeping an article on someone whose sole claim to fame is that they came third. Come on, people! The reliable sources contain maybe two facts: the competition and the school. Just zis Guy you know? 20:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • So, would you delete athletes who are "only" third-best in the country, as well? Or do you have separate standards for mental competitions versus physical ones? --Rob 19:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
    • If they are only the third best according to the results of a single competition, yes. Think about this logically for a moment: how much verifiable biographical data is there for these people outside of the single fact of their having taken part in a single competition? I have nothing against a brief note in the article on the competition, that makes good sense, but what you appear to be arguing for here is an article whiech will, most likely in perpetuity, say that this person came third ina competition once. You think that's enough to base a biography on? You think that establishes encyclopaedic notability? This is well below the level of attention given to losing candidates in elections, who by common consent do not get articles unless they are independently notable. I'd say the same applies: if these people have some independent and objective claim to notability per WP:BIO then by all means give them articles, but otherwise list them in a single article and if you think its likely anyone but their mother will search for them by name then add a redirect. Just zis Guy you know? 12:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I'm glad we agree on using logic and WP:BIO, which states "The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person". So, clearly she either meets that standard, or is at least close enough, to warrant a proper AFD discussion. I'm glad you do apply the same standard to athletes, but since you appear opposed to existing WP:BIO rules for athletes, you should really take that up on the talk page of WP:BIO. You're applying rules on biographies that aren't mentioned in WP:BIO. As for elections: we we include all members of the federal and state legislatures. That's thousands of people for some countries. That includes third-party back-benchers in legislatures/parliaments with a majority government. Look at music: you just have to have a charted hit. It doesn't have to be #1. So, generally we go well, well beyond "top 3" in most areas. --Rob 16:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted as per Just zis Guy above. Arguments that a third place contestant in a spelling bee deserves their own article are totally beyond me Bwithh 22:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Just want to make sure you two brits realize that the Scripps-Howard Spelling Bee is a nationally-covered event, televised live nationwide by ESPN, the premier sports channel in the United States. It gets front page treatment in the press every year, it's a big deal - not just a bee at a school. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 23:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this Brit has been living in the US since 2001. Bwithh 01:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• • • Actually, it even went one step further this year and was broadcast in primetime on ABC. Metros232 23:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • it was also simulcast in hdtv on 2 different networks so erasing this makes no sense at all. Yuckfoo 01:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• undelete this please a mistake was made here so fix it Yuckfoo 01:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, per JZG & Bwithh. Despite popular opinion, I don't see how finishing 3rd in this event is notable. It didn't even strike me as a proper assertion of notability. PJM 02:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• This one is difficult. The result of any AfD debate should be really, really, really obvious: merge the article and create a redirect to the spelling bee. Yes, the young lady was in the news because of the scandal of the judges getting it wrong and a competitor correcting them (and thus reinstating the girl). Further, she was being followed around by cameras and is very photogenic. If this were AfD, I'd say "Merge and redirect": she hasn't been alive long enough to have a biography or done anything, yet. That said, this isn't AfD, so I suppose I have to put my faith in the demos and say...I hate doing this...overturn and finish the AfD. Geogre 12:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Deleted per JzG. Eusebeus 15:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist. I don't think the subject is notable, and I think the article should be deleted, but it should be deleted through the proper AfD process. There is an assertion of notability, so a speedy is inappropriate. jgp (T|C) 15:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist While I would probably vote delete on the afd, technically it should be relisted since there is at least a debatable claim to notability. OhNoitsJamie^Talk 18:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion per JzG. However, I'd support history undeletion if if the content of this article is merged into the article about the competition and then turned into a redirect. - Liberatore(T) 15:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Reopen AfD I'm not sure of the actual bio, but I have to question the speedy. Yanksox ^(talk) 16:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

12 June 2006

User:Winhunter/Userboxes/EFF and User:Winhunter/Userboxes/No-CCP

This user is opposed to online censorship.

This user opposes the Chinese Communist Party.

Both userboxes are in the userspace according to the German Userbox solution, but an admin deleted both of them, saying "T1 deletion as per CSD and Tony Sidaway arbcom case." in the deletion log. I do not believe speedy deletion would apply on userboxes in userspace in these two uesrboxes, especially when there are consensus on German Userbox Solution. --WinHunter^(talk) 02:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete and list at MfD - I think these userboxes must necessarily be deleted at MfD, but I think that, in this case, it's worth it to go back and list them there. Other opponents of userboxes, please consider my reasons. (I'm the same one who's argued passionately against not digging up the dead to rebury them.) We have a choice right now: we may start another userbox brouhaha, or not. Let's choose not to. Let's be smart about it this time, and do what Jimbo actually suggested. Once the boxes are in userspace, let's use reason and dialogue to explain why they're a bad idea. Let's do that by taking them to MfD for deletion instead of speedying them, and creating the conditions for much more congenial discussion, where explanation and development of reasons can actually go on in more cooperative spirit. Let's not ruffle feathers with speedy deletions, and then try to have that same conversation at DRV, where it's much more difficult on account of people being upset, and the constant drive to not talk about the content being deleted, but the validity of the deletion instead. This is a crappy place for the conversation to happen. We're not required to speedy polemical pages in user-space. We are free to apply the "if it walks like a template" criterion, or not. Please consider that we can do this encyclopedia a greater service by being a little more slow and deliberate about dealing with the userbox problem. -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and list at MfD - I dislike these 2 boxes but am convinced by GTBacchus' points. Kimchi.sg 03:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn, undelete, and send to MfD Case 1: EFF box. It is anything but obvious that this is inflammatory. It is anything but obvious that this is divisive. Heck, Wikipedia, by policy, is not censored. If there is anyplace that this should not be divisive, it is Wikipedia. This one looks like a clearly erroneous speedy deletion, and possibly should just be overturned without sending it to MfD, as I think a keep outcome is the appropriate MfD result. Case 2: Opposes CCP box. Better addressed on MfD than via a speedy deletion, as per GTBachus' argument above. The inflammatory case is debatable, given that the CCP already attempts to ban the citizens of mainland China from seeing Wikipedia, and that those who circumvent the firewall are unlikely to be the CCP's strongest supporters. GRBerry 03:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• I do not believe endless TFDs, MFDs, and DRVs are the correct way to resolve this issue. I think it's time to try the final step in dispute resolution. --Cyde↔Weys 03:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Which is...? If it's "take it to someone who can set binding policy", I agree with you. Jay Maynard 12:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• ArbCom is the final step of dispute resolution. --Cyde↔Weys 19:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep deleted These fall under T1. T1 applies to userspace templates still. Would it be better to delete these through TFD or MFD? I believe so, but they have shown that they do not produce correct results w.r.t. to policy. Process is only important if it works. Kotepho 03:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is not democracy. Why are MfDs closed against policy just because the numbers say so? -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I don't know. Why are Gay Nigger Association of America and The Game (game) still around? Their sources are certainly scant.

  I do want to echo your request that userboxes in User: should be taken to *FD instead of speedied in most cases, but the debates need to be closed on their merits instead of numbers. That is not to say that all templates in user space should be taken to *FD--as many are fine in user space--but there are still templates that are so odious that they must be deleted from user space also. I believe that "user against $POLITICAL_PARTY" falls under such a condition, even if I happen to agree with that position. The EFF box is a bit different--enough that it probably should be discussed seperately. "This user supports the EFF" is something that I believe is inappropriate, but not so much that it needs to be deleted immediately. In its current form I believe that T1 is applicable. Kotepho 04:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  It is in userspace, what do you think about this? Jimbo on Userboxes --WinHunter ^(talk) 04:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  The problem with userboxes is that people really really ought not to be using their user pages to advocate for or against green energy or anyone else. - Jimbo Wales I like it a lot. I would add this bit though. I am not doing anything about it just yet, but I am willing to concede that my nonviolent social request that people knock it off and think about what it means to be a Wikipedian has not gotten very far.[10] On "it is in userspace": I have no idea what you are replying to, as no one disputes that. Kotepho 05:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I am reasonably certain that Winhunter was referring to this quote: [11] (too long to copy). It is, after all, the one he linked to. —Mira 08:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  This one [12] too, actually. —Mira 08:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  There would still be restrictions on the range of possible userboxes... from the first diff, and I already quoted from the second diff? The middle ground is to let people do as they will in the user space, and merely use reason and argument to teach people over time why one ought not use Wikipedia userpages for political or other campaigns.... while at the same time saying, no, really, the template namespace is not for that, that we do not endorse this behavior. This is the solution that the Germans have put into effect with great results. Personally, I'm not a big fan of people using their user pages (or editing the encyclopedia) to advocate their points of view (and Jimbo agrees). How are these boxes anything other than that? Notice how Jimbo doesn't say "Oh I think that is fine", he says "this might work for now, but try and talk some sense into them". Talking hasn't worked; and most of these comment are from months ago. On the issue of substed versus transcluded in userspace, it is not a distinction without a difference. Kotepho 09:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I haven't seen talking given much of a chance to work. I've seen people try to bypass talking, by just deleting a bunch of boxes repeatedly, and creating conditions for people to feel they're being attacked. -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete and relist at MFD agree with GTBacchus. The speedy deletion of userboxes has been far more divisive than any userbox could ever be. —Mira 05:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and undelete Nothing wrong with either these userboxes or WP:GUS. jgp 07:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete User space is sacred territory!  Grue  07:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep both deleted. First one is merely unnecessary, second is a childish attempt to piss off the editors you're supposed to be writing an encyclopaedia with. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Question. How is the second one going to piss anyone off? Wikipedia is banned where anyone would actually support the Chinese communist party, because of the chinese communist party. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 17:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Userspace is not sacred, and must follow policy like anywhere else. --Improv 08:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - Userspace is absolutely fine for userboxes. I don't use them, but I had asked Tony Sidaway about them at User_talk:Tony_Sidaway#Random_Userbox_question. He seemed to think they were OK in the userspace, and I disagree that a T1 CSD criterion can apply to the userspace. Because if we can apply other CSD criterion to the user space, then we should delete a crapload of nn-bios and nonsense right now. - Hahnchen 08:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • If it looks like a duck, and transcludes like a duck, and quacks "Hey you! Your government and your political opinions are evil! By the way, would you like to write an encyclopaedia with me?" like a duck, it's probably a duck and therefore subject to criterion for speedy roasting T1. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Why are these boxes being treated differently to anything else on the user page? Are we no longer allowed to write down out beliefs on our userpage? If I write on my userpage "Evolution is fact", it's OK? But if I put it into a box, it's crossing some kind of line? If so, I seriously suggest we start at User:SPUI and work on from there. - Hahnchen 09:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I have no problems with people wrting down their beliefs on their userpage within reason, I do have a problem with encouraging others to write down the same beliefs by handing out bumper stickers. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 11:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  If you know of any recreated deleted articles being used in userspace as they would be in article space (i.e. inside article categories and/or linked from article space) please remove such links/cats, tag it g4, or bring it to mfd. Kotepho 09:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Naturally, categorisation or crosslinking from the mainspace to the userspace should not be allowed. I myself have made this error when working on new articles in my userspace. However, the relevance to this conversation seems very little. Many times I have seen 'Userfy' used in deletion discussions, so recreations in the userspace aren't entirely g4 material. - Hahnchen 09:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Of course it does not apply to all templates, but ones that are divisive and inflammatory are fair game even in user space. Examples of such happening would be User Anti-UN and User Anti-ACLU. How is No-CCP significantly different? Kotepho 10:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete. POV userboxes but in userspace, which is what the German solution calls for. We have generally granted wide latitude in that area, including clear biases. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete. The whole idea of WP:TGS is to take forward Jimbo's endorsement of how userboxes are handled on the German Wikipedia. He has said that POV should be allowed in user space far beyond what is allowed in template space. Also, I'm strongly against extending T1 to user space. Show me the policy discussion covering that interpretation, please. --StuffOfInterest 10:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete. If I may quote Jimbo's suggestion regarding the failed UPP proposal: "The text of WP:UPP is filled with what one can and cannot say, specifically, All userbox templates that show a POV or are not directly related to wikipedia will be deleted after a period of time. Note that a user subpage that is transcluded without substitution by multiple users is considered a 'template'. This is like saying, "You may have pamphlets, but you may not mechanically print and distribute them. This is not an infringement of free speech". To put it kindly, this is counter-intuitive." CharonX/talk 11:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - The stated reason that a user-page comment to the effect of, 'I hate people with mauve skin' inside a rectangle has not been allowed while 'I hate people with mauve skin' outside a rectangle has been allowed was that the 'rectangle version' has traditionally been coming from 'Template space' and might therefor theoretically be taken to imply that Wikimedia encourages or tolerates the hating of people with mauve skin... while the 'not in a rectangle version' has traditionally been coming from 'User space' wherein it is more clearly the statement of the individual user(s). Ergo, if a disputed viewpoint resides entirely in user space it does not fall under the stated reason for removal of such from template space... whether it is enclosed in a rectangle or not. Does that make the hating of mauve people a good thing which we should encourage? Of course not, but to date we haven't taken the position that we can (or should) police the content of all userpages to remove any disputed viewpoints. If someone writes on their user page, 'I am gay and have been married to my partner for three years now' we do not remove it on the grounds that 'gay marriage is divisive' yet now some are saying that we should. If people really want to broaden this to a discussion of sanitizing the user space (not just template space) of all disputed beliefs then they need to make a case for that... but until then there are no grounds to do so for bits and pieces of user space - whether they are enclosed in rectangles or not. There have been decisions against the use of the template namespace for disputed viewpoints... not the use of rectangles. --CBDunkerson 11:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  No one is saying that you cannot use rectangles; they are saying you cannot use templates. The definition of a template is not "stuff in Template:". See also Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Tony Sidaway. Kotepho 11:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  See the quote from Jimbo that CharonX included above...he seems to disagree specifically with your argument. Jay Maynard 12:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I disagree. You are apparently defining 'template' as 'anything which is transcluded'. That is not stated in the arbcom case you cite and is not consistent with Jimbo's statements about why T1 was created and what kinds of transclusion are acceptable:

  "Suppose we omit the bit about [disallowing] user subpages transcluded without substitution? If we do that, then a certain amount of userboxing can go on no problem, but outside the officially sanctioned spaces. This respects our long tradition of allowing wide latitude on userspace stuff, while at the same time keeping these userboxes out of officially sanctioned areas which would suggest to new users that this is an official thing that one ought to be doing. There would still be restrictions on the range of possible userboxes, of course, but this is not different from the restriction on all manner of things people might put on their userpages already."

  The T1 criteria was created to address Jimbo's concerns (and those of others) about templates (by which I mean 'things in the template namespace') possibly giving the impression that a view was supported by Wikimedia. Above Jimbo makes a clear distinction that transcluded pages from the template and other 'official' namespaces need to be kept free of divisive statements, but transcluded user pages should be treated like any other user page content - where we have long allowed much wider lattitude since they do not reflect on Wikimedia. --CBDunkerson 12:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  What is not clear about "...or a userfied copy of a deleted template that is used on pages other than those of its owner..." (Principle 2)? Is this not a userfied copy of a deleted template that is used on pages other than those of its owner? Deleted, check; userfied, check; used on pages other than those of it's owner, check.

  Also--amazingly enough--everything Jimbo says on a random talk page is not ex cathedra; there is a difference between Jimbo's opinion and Jimbo's decrees. Kotepho 12:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Lots of stuff Jimbo has said on random talk pages is being taken ex cathedra. If the statements that he's made that the anti-userbox faction likes count, so do the statements the anti-userbox faction doesn't like. Jay Maynard 12:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Are you saying that users are responsible for transclusions by others of their subpages? --SPUI (T - C) 15:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  While I don't think you were being serious, it only took about a minute to make a subpage only transclude properly for me. If the template isn't horrible you could always subst the others or duplicate copies for everyone instead of deleting it. Kotepho 10:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  When we reach the point that the T1 CSD is re-written to directly contradict the person who is directly responsible for its existence there is a problem. T1 was implemented spontaneously, without any normal approval process, to fill a need specified by Jimbo. Re-interpreting T1 to directly contradict Jimbo's position on this issue would invalidate it's entire basis for existence. As to the ArbCom principle you cite (I was looking for a definition of 'template' consistent with yours)... it deals with attempts to circumvent deletion of unacceptable content by relocating it. It does not address the different standards between what is acceptable in the template namespace and what is acceptable in the user namespace. If something was deleted because it is unacceptable anywhere on Wikipedia then moving it to the user space is no improvement, but if something was deleted because it was unacceptable in the template namespace (the meaning of T1 actually espoused by the person responsible for its existence), but would be acceptable in the user space, then I don't see a problem with its recreation. Just as the 'non notable bio' CSD applies to 'article' space, but not to 'user' space so to with the T1 CSD in template vs user space. The entire basis of T1's existence, possible implication of Wikimedia support, simply does not apply to the user space. --CBDunkerson 17:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  The arbitration case dealt with such templates as User Anti-UN, how is User No-CCP different? The case held that G4 did extend to such templates (in userspace) and by a little logical extention it is easy to see that T1 still applies to userspace. If someone creates Category:George Bush is a dick can we not speedy it? "But A6 has an A in front of it, it only applies to articles!" Nonsense. Divisive and inflammatory templates (in all namespaces) are fair game. Kotepho 02:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  So... by extension of the interpretation T1 means the opposite of what Jimbo says it means? Heh. :] If these boxes had been created in user space in the first place the 'recreation' ArbCom principle you cite would not apply to them, correct? So they couldn't be 'G4' in that case... and they couldn't be T1 because they aren't in the template namespace and thus don't 'imply Wikimedia endorsement'... and they don't violate general standards for user page content. Yet you argue that since they were created in Template space first, as was the accepted practice at the time, they can no longer exist in user space... even though they could have if they hadn't been (correctly) placed in template space originally before the change in standards. This makes sense? If someone creates completely new userboxes which express similar sentiments that 'recreation' principle does not apply to them, but we've got to do 'interpretation gymnastics' to come up with some technicality where these two can't because they got caught up in the transition from 'all userboxes go in 'Template:User <whatever>' to 'disputed views cannot be in template space'? Why? Wikipedia is not a battleground. We're supposed to be building an encyclopedia... not searching for a hyper-technicality to help extend a fight over trivialities. --CBDunkerson 11:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  I normally don't respond to strawmen, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just restate my argument. T1 comes into being. Jimbo doesn't say "We should have this so we can get rid of these as they are seen as an official endorsement"--he doesn't say anything. Trying to apply whatever Jimbo has said in various places to the meaning of T1 is well, meaningless. There have been cases where user subpages used as templates have been deleted under T1, and these have held up by ArbCom. If something is deleted because it is inappropriate and recreated and then used in the same way as the deleted item, it may be considered G4. That is what the rfar said. By logical extension and "common sense" it is easy to see that "Bananas are bad in template space" and "Bananas recreated in user space are still bad, so we must delete them" leads to "Bananas in user space are deletable, even if it never was deleted in template space". If you have say Template:User Hates France and User:Bob/User Hates Germany, and User Hates France is deleted from template space and then from user space, it is easy to see that User:Bob/User Hates Germany should also be deleted--even though it never existed in template space. You claim that I am looking for technicalities and I guess "wikilawyering", but I would say you are. It is a simple question, that no one has even tried to answer, how is User No-CCP substainially different than User Anti-UN or various other user space templates that have been deleted (and kept deleted) before? The only response thus far has been "well, wikipedia is blocked in china, so the people that would be upset won't know!". That is so vacuous that it does not merit a reply. Oh, I can play the Jimbo sez game too "However, the issue with userboxes is that they are templates, and as such, they are categorized and easy to replicate and easy to use for campaigning and so on, and so they turn individual advocacy behavior, which is bad enough, into group campaigns." is all still true of userfied templates. Kotepho 23:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  I think I see the problem. Your third sentence is incorrect. Jimbo did say that we needed to get these things out of template space / avoid the appearance of Wikimedia support for them. Indeed, he has done so repeatedly... for instance immediately after the point at which you cut off the quotation above. It continues, "The pages which list userboxes, in the template namespace, make it seem as though putting these things on userpages is a normal and accepted community behavior, when in fact it is not. There is a middle ground, I agree. The middle ground is to let people do as they will in the user space...". I believe you are also incorrect when you say that Jimbo's position is "meaningless" in relation to T1. T1 exists because of Jimbo. It is there for no other reason. It was created and kept strictly on his say so. Therefor you can't make it mean something different than he says or there just isn't any basis for its continued existence. It was never discussed and adopted through formal consensus. It was installed at Jimbo's discretion to get 'disputed/divisive statements' out of the template namespace. Using a policy which exists on Jimbo's say so to contradict Jimbo is meritless. Can't be done. You want to cleanse the user space of people saying things like, 'I am gay and have been married to my partner for 3 years now' or, for some inexplicable reason, just cases where they transclude such statements from a user sub-page, then you need to propose and get consensus on a policy to do so. T1 was created to protect Wikimedia from the appearance of supporting various potentially contentious positions/causes by removing such from the template namespace. Nothing more. We would prefer that users not put such issues on their user pages (as Jimbo goes on to say), but we do not prevent them from doing so. Even at the height of the explosion with (arguably) the most contentious issue, the 'pedophile userbox wheel war'... which directly spawned T1, users were allowed to keep statements indicating that they were pedophiles in user space (and continue to do so to this day). Just not in template space. You try to 'extend' an ArbCom principle about re-creations to make T1 apply to user space, but it just inherently doesn't. It is not transclusion (or rectanglization) which makes these divisive views deletable... it is their existence in the 'seemingly official' template namespace rather than as concepts endorsed solely by users in the user space. --CBD 11:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Jimbo has said that they should not be in Template:, yes. However, that is not what I said at all. He did not say "Here is T1. Divisive and inflammatory templates are bad because it looks like an official endorsement.". T1 exists because Jimbo has decreed that divisive and inflammatory things are bad, he did not qualify why. Jimbo has not endorsed the German solution as everyone seems to say. He has simply stated "here is what de. did". Thus, citing T1 cannot contradict Jimbo's wishes (or if it does, he has not expressly stated them). If Jimbo wants to say that T1 does not apply to userspace or that he supports moving userboxes to userspace in an official capacity I'm sure he can figure out how to tell us. Again I say "there is a difference between Jimbo's opinion and his decrees". It is funny how you keep harping on "T1 in userspace" though, as the debate about these particular templates is obviously in line with the definition of G4 previously used and therefore does not need to apply in this case anyways (at least for the EFF one, I cannot find a Template: version of No-CCP but that doesn't mean it didn't exist). Kotepho 15:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Jimbo reinstated T1 in "divisive and inflammatory" form into the CSD on 6 February. The community accepted this as they viewed it as his decree. However, on 20 February he said "There have been no decrees from me". He did not simply state "here is what de. did" [sic as regards use of quotation marks], he said "The middle ground is to let people do as they will in the user space, and merely use reason and argument to teach people over time why one ought not use Wikipedia userpages for political or other campaigns.... while at the same time saying, no, really, the template namespace is not for that, that we do not endorse this behavior. This is the solution that the Germans have put into effect with great results." [Emphasis added.] All of this can be verified by reading Wikipedia:Jimbo on Userboxes, except the reason for the community accepting it, which must be verified by reading the February history and archived talk page of WP:CSD.

  Finally, I suggest that the talk pages Wikipedia talk:German userbox solution or Wikipedia talk:T1 and T2 debates are the most approriate pages to continue discussion as to what the right general approach is.GRBerry 16:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep deleted. I swear, when you think you've found a solution to a problem, another problem crops up. --Lord Deskana ^{Dark Lord of the Sith} 11:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Out of curiosity, what solution are you referring to? Most other editors here are citing WP:GUS. --StuffOfInterest 15:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and do not list at xfD. The German userbox solution is a compromise designed to end the userbox wars. Speedy deleting userboxes in userspace shows contempt for that compromise, and spits in the face of those who worked hard to make it reality. If the same criteria apply to userboxes in userspace as apply to userboxes in template space, then there is no compromise at all, and the wars, and the exodus, will go on. Jay Maynard 11:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It is disappointing that we may lose a few good editors, but by and large people who would leave wikipedia over this are people who have the wrong idea about Wikipedia and see their userpage as another livejournal. --Improv 13:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Please trim that broad brush. You have no way of knowing that, and the accusation, while not as insulting as saying those who believe userboxes are valuable want to turn Wilipedia into MySpace, is nevertheless quite wide of the mark. The reason people would leave Wikipedia over this is not only the inability to say who one is, but also - and perhaps even more so - that speedy deletions in the face of an ongoing attempt to reach a genuine compromise say that those in power simply do not care what those not in power think. That attitude is far more corrosive than any userbox can be, and, from what I'm seeing, far more pervasive. Jay Maynard 13:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • You hit the nail on the head. When legitimate attempts at compromise are responded to with hard-line stonewalling, you know something is fundamentally wrong with Wikipedia's culture. jgp 13:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Comment The difficulty is that compromise is not possible (or even desirable) in every case. For example, vandals want unlimited vandaism, wikipedia wants none, so it would be pointless to compromise and allow some vandalism. The base issue in this is that some see these boxes as an example of what wikipedia is not, and as such not a valid case for compromise, as what wikipedia is, and is not, is fundamental, not only to its culture, but to wikipedia itself. MartinRe 17:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
          • Now you're just implying that userboxes are vandalism which is grossly off base and quite insulting. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 17:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
            • No, I am implying no such thing. I am simply pointing out that "compromise" is not always a magic word. If you have people that believe (rightly or wrongly) that the opposing view has no merit, then the middle ground will seem equally flawed. If one person thinks 2+2=4 and another says that 2+2=6, a suggested compromise to agree that 2+2=5 would also be rejected, but might be seen as stonewalling. And no, I am not saying any opinion is as right as "2+2=4", but am just pointing out possible reasons why what appears to be a compromise to one person, may appear not to be one to someone else. (and I have seen signs of this on all sides of this debate) Regards, MartinRe 18:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete, as it has always been standard to make and transclude user subpages. --SPUI (T - C) 14:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete no basis for deletion per the German Solution. Also they are most definitely not T1. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 17:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Userfy them to my userpage UBX directory (UBX), which is open to all (non-personal attack/reality-compatible) userboxes. If anyone deletes it there, I will undelete it. Simple. TGS will be implemented, by community consensus. Xoloz 18:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • By the way, I got this idea from User:Cyde Weys, no friend of userboxes, and he is helping me implement it, so I'd say it has some sort of "bipartisan support". Xoloz 19:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Umm, Xoloz, look closely. These were already in user space. Also, if you just undelete them you'll end up being accused of wheel warring. --StuffOfInterest 19:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I know exactly what I said SOI (although I take no offense at your point :) The difference between Winhunter and me is that I can undelete myself, without process hoops. Anyone who wheel-warred with me over my own userspace would go to ArbCom with me, and not be looked on too brightly. If I must wheel-war and lose adminship... oh well. If it ends the userbox war, it is worth it. I trust, however, that my fellow admins would respect my userspace, even if they delete from other "normal users" (sic). If they don't, we'll get this settled. Xoloz 19:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I hate to say this, but regardless of how it gets there I'm starting to think that ArbCom is the right place to go. I had hoped that when WP:GUS came around, backed by Jimbo's own words, things would finally settle. It appears that this isn't the case and higher level policy may be needed. --StuffOfInterest 19:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: I'd like to see fewer user boxes, and I don't care where they are stored. The German system doesn't answer the fundamental question: What is Wikipedia?

Some user boxes are clearly deleted under T1 when they are not inflammatory. The emotional attachment which people show to a particular userbox when it is deleted can indicate whether it is inflammatory, and some raise no hackles. I wouldn't personally delete marginal userboxes until a new policy gains consensus. And people wheel warring over this issue just demonstrates they are too involved to have a dispassionate opinion. What we need in the short term is a simple and non-time consuming way to determine which boxes should be kept and which deleted while policy is worked out.

I suggest a panel of five people representing differing shades of opinion, with a process that means some are deleted and some are kept. Then everyone else can get on with more productive things. It's silly to have so many people involved when at the end of the day, they'll either all be deleted or all be recreated. Stephen B Streater 20:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Does a userbox having people with emotional attachment automatically make them inflammatory? What about the organ donor one? That had lots of emotional attachment, but it is almost completely inconceivable that it is inflammatory. (I just renewed my driver's license today, and made sure to check the box for organ donation, in part because this issue reminded me of it.)

It makes no sense to do anything with userboxes until policy is worked out. All deleting some does is inflame the situation and make it look like those doing the deleting are trying to get their licks in before they're told not to. That's the fundamental argument here: an admin took it upon himself to act while policy is still in flux, and the consensus appears to be that that is objectionable. Your panel would be even more so. Jay Maynard 20:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

A panel might not be a bad idea, but I'd be shocked if anything becomes a policy on userboxes without just being done for a while first. I'd suggest that whomever forms such a panel look for 1) regular participation (no use having someone who drops out for months at a time), 2) demonstrated ability to be educational in discussing the topic, and for at least most of the panel members 3) demonstrated nuanced decisionmaking - no use having a panel of people whose opinions are predictable before they even see the userbox, as that would defeat the reason for forming a panel. I don't think this could become policy, but if a few people formed a panel that would chime in when requested, and that panel met Stephen B Streater's and my criteria, it could help and could even be a good enhancement to WP:GUS. I'm going to boldly take the suggestion, Jay's and my comments over to the talk page for that. So please follow up on this idea at it's talk page. GRBerry 20:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment. What boggles my mind is that everyone seems to overlook that deleting userboxes, especially ones like this that are following the german solution, is far and away more disruptive and divisive that any userbox has ever been on wikipedia. Like it or no, this is the case and has been for some time. Even Jimbo has supported the german solution, why can't it just be left at that. Further attempts to delete WP:GUS compliant userboxes is just going to cause disruption and hassle to everyone and won't change a thing. Userboxes are here to stay. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 21:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

This comment is very close to inspiring me give up on all compromise and turn into a hard-core userbox deletionist. Do you think about the effect your words will have on others? If you say "Userboxes are here to stay", that's like throwing a gauntlet down. Why would you do that? -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not throwing the gauntlet down, just saying that the german solution is a HUGE compromise on the part of people that want userboxes. Why can't it be the meeting point in the middle? JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought the point of WP:GUS was to allow userboxes to stay, in user space, unless they violated some tenet of WP:USER. Is this not correct? Jay Maynard 22:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought the point of WP:GUS was to end the userbox war. In the short run, this means that userboxes stay. In the long run, they will become less important, probably less visible, and possibly less used in total. My personal view of the long run, as a middle aged individual, is that it will be a year or two. But again, this is better discussed at the talk page for WP:GUS instead of here. GRBerry 22:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Jay, have you read anything Jimbo said about userboxes? The point of WP:GUS is to get userboxes the hell out of template space immediately, and allow us to take our time educating people about why they're actually bad for Wikipedia and getting fully rid of them in the long run. If people aren't even going to pretend to be open to the idea that we might have a point about that, then I don't see much sense in doing all the work of trying to make the process smooth. If you're just bound a determined to culturally colonize Wikipedia, and say fuck what Jimbo and the experienced Wikipedians think, then I can pretty well understand why we might respond by trying quite intentionally to drive you away. How can you talk about compromise, when you're not even willing to admit that you might be wrong? Have you done anything in the direction of opening your mind to the valid point that we just might be making, or is it just riveted shut? I'd really just as soon people with minds riveted shut left the encyclopedia writing to those of us capable of seeing from more than one perspective; we're more qualified. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm perfectly willing to admit that you might have a point about it. I understand that Jimbo feels userboxes should go. What I'm having trouble with are two things: 1) Why, if having editors state their PsOV on their user pages is such a problem, is it perfectly acceptable for them to use plain text to say the exact same things - as advocated by a leading userbox deletionist? If it harms the project, shouldn't it go, in whatever form, as a matter of policy - which Jimbo has explicitly refused to do in the case of userboxes? 2) I do view WP:GUS as a compromise, because I do not believe that there is any substantial difference between having userboxes in Template: space and having them in User: space (because I do not believe that any reasonable outsider will believe that Wikipedia is endorsing anything on a user page in any way, and those templates are explicitly restricted to user pages). It appears that userboxes in Template: space and comprehensive userbox directories are at an end, and I'm willing to give that up - but only if there's compromise from the other side, as well. The German userbox solution is that workable compromise, as long as admins don't try to torpedo it by unilaterally applying T1 to templates in user space where it doesn't belong. One admin did so, and that's why we're here.

I'm honestly not trying to piss you off. You have been a voice of reason throughout the implementation of WP:GUS, and even though you may not believe that, I do appreciate it. I'm not out to culturally colonize Wikipedia. I am out to recognize human dynamics, not ignore them, however, in this diverse community. Jay Maynard 23:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, why not stop repeating this tired mantra that people are trying to "ignore human dymanics", for starters? If you're going to persistently mischaracterize the anti-userbox position, I'm going to assume you don't know what it actually is. I don't want anyone to be bland, pretend they have no strong opinions, or hide their POV. That's not what it's about.

Also, "if it harms the project, shouldn't it go, in any form, as a matter of policy?" No. That would be the authoritarian approach. I'll say it again - Wikipedia doesn't work the way you're guessing it must. You have to think outside the bun here. Wikipedia is a new kind of thing, where new kinds of dynamics occur. We don't accomplish things by making rules, and then carrying them out. We suggest, persuade, evolve, flow. I'm not saying that all the people deleting userboxes are providing good examples of how it's supposed to work, but... have you studied Wikis at all? Presumably, anyone who thinks they're working for the good of Wikipedia on this issue has spent a lot of hours at MeatballWiki and the WikiWikiWeb learning about this new technology, and what its social aspects are like, right? If you don't know what Wikiculture is like, how do you know you're not helping to aggressively colonize it, quite by accident, with a destructive view of how it should run?

Next, iconography has power. A rectangle turns a piece of text into a badge, and places its bearer into a category, defined by the text in the box. It's a clear message: "I'm taking a side!" I had a few political userboxes at first, because there's something alluring about them - if you see them on someone else's page, you want some of your own. They're kind of viral that way. Then, one day I realized that my goal, as a Wikipedian, is to dissolve those boundaries, get outside of myself, and continually improve my ability to see issues from multiple perspectives, which quite explicitly translates into better encyclopedia writing. I'm not hiding my beliefs, I just don't choose to emphasize them here, because this is where I try to be something bigger than myself. If they're relevant to an article, I'll state them in the proper context, when I'm in a discussion about that article. I refuse, however, to display a bunch of badges and send the message to anyone visiting my userspace: here's a writer with an agenda, someone who might care about the encyclopedia, but definitely cares about issues X, Y, and Z.

The worst consequence is this: there are peeople in this world who don't care at all about NPOV. They don't care about making a neutral encyclopedia for everyone, that's fair to everyone. They care about advancing their agenda. They are not welcome here. They are enemies to our project. A sheet of colorful useboxes advertising one's pet causes makes Wikipedia look custom-made for POV-pushing. We would prefer that POV-pushers look around Wikipedia and see "gosh, there's a lot of people here who seem really committed to being super-fair minded about things, I feel kind of out of place all advocating for one side in my pet dispute."

Now, I think I've just described a position that's different from how you were characterizing the userbox deletionist stance. Please tell me, Jay, if I've managed to make a distinction between what I say you were saying I'm saying, and what I'm actually saying. Please tell me that I've managed to show that I'm not interested in making people hide their POVs, but I'm actually interested in an ideal where people, fully cognizant and admitting of their POVs, strive to transcend them with every edit to the Wikipedia, and would actually just feel funny advertising them with an attractive little box, just like you might feel out of place wearing a sandwich board advertising your business to church.

I will be quite happy if you continue to disagree, as long as you're accurate about what it is you're disagreeing with. If I haven't managed to clarify it here, please let me know, and I will keep trying. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

This deserves much more reply than I'm comfortable putting in here, as we seem to be getting a bit far afield from the subject (at least, I don't think DRV is a place to discuss deep concepts of Wikipedia philosophy). I'll limit myself here to saying that I'm as fully committed to NPOV in article space as you are, and I fully agree that this is not the place to advance anyone's agenda; I simply disagree that it's fully possible to check one's biases at the door. While your ideal is laudable, it is impossible, and it behooves us to act in understanding of how people are, rather than how we'd like them to be. Jay Maynard 02:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I second the feelings above and add, what is so bad about someone explicitly stating their POVs? If anything it makes it easier to identify if they've let POV come into their work in the article space. If I state, as I do, in my infobox that I am for immigrants rights and then edit an article on that topic with a potentially skewed bias it will be easier to identify that I did and for it to be modified to a more NPOV statement. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete first (whether or not necessary, as it's reappeared elsewhere in Winhunter's user pages); do not send to MfD, as it's not T1, T2, T3, or otherwise Speedyable. keep second deleted only if transcluded by other users, otherwise undelete (if necessary) It is T1, but that doesn't apply unless it's a template. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• undelete these please they are in user space erasure was wrongful Yuckfoo 01:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - these are T2 boxes that would have been quite properly deleted if they had been in template space. Metamagician3000 11:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and slap speedy deleter with a healthy trout. These are in user space. Restore them and get back to the encyclopedia. Please remember --Speedy Deletion is not a Toy 22:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Kill these dead and point those interested to MySpace. --Calton | Talk 05:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • ARGH!!! Would those folks who oppose userboxes please, please quit insulting those of us who favor them by saying we're trying to turn Wikipedia into MySpace? It's just not true, and it's approaching the level of gratuitous incivility. Jay Maynard 12:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I'd call it pretty much a violation of both WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. --StuffOfInterest 12:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Strategic Policy Consulting

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Strategic Policy Consulting

The article about Strategic Policy Consulting was recently deleted and protected against re-creation, along with its associated redirects. This article is referred to in the frequently vandalised article about Alireza Jafarzadeh. Strategic Policy Consulting is relevant to a current event, the Iran and weapons of mass destruction issue. The company, through its links with the Mujahedeen-e_Khalq, is the primary US source of intelligence about Iran at present. The advice it provides may lead to US military action against Iran, thereby changing the course of history in the near future. A Wikipedia article about this company may be referred to by key decision makers throughout the world as they weigh the value of the advice it provides. With this in mind I would like to suggest the article be re-created so that it can be expanded and linked appropriately. --Dave 08:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Without commenting on the value of the article, I have to say that "A Wikipedia article about this company may be referred to by key decision makers throughout the world as they weigh the value of the advice it provides" is the scariest thing I'm likely to read today. Are you serious? · rodii · 15:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment was the article deleted by speedy or via AfD? And yes, the idea of the government consulting wikipedia is very frightening. --tjstrf 15:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Strategic Policy Consulting. User:Zoe|^(talk) 15:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I think Dave probably means that key decision markers will be consulting the subject of the article, not the article itself. If it is the "primary US source of intelligence about Iran", that sounds like a claim of notability not considered by the original AfD that would be worth a re-examination. Is there a third-party source to support this claim? --Sam Blanning^(talk) 16:13, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • That's not how I read it. Not that it's a big deal, but I read it as saying "key decisions maker will turn to the Wikipedia article for background on this company when they decide how much weight to give the company's intelligence." And that seems wrong to me. At the very least, we should be careful not to give credence to any claims about the company unless they meet a pretty high standard of verification. But I think that takes us out of deletion review territory. I agree with what you say about re-examining the evidence. · rodii · 16:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Unprotect/undelete. The article was deleted as an advertisement, but only 4 users even commented on the deletion. A rewritten form should be acceptable and it has a seemingly good claim to notability based on its owner. --tjstrf 17:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse close, but don't object to a rewrite if notability can be established. Just because only four people commented does not make this an invalid deletion. Discuss process. Please note that Googling '"Strategic Policy Consulting, Inc." -wikipedia' only brings up 55 hits, and the first five of those are various websites created by the company. User:Zoe|^(talk) 20:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted: I was the person who originally put this article up for AfD, way back just over a year ago. At the time, the article contained nothing to establish notability. One of the phrases from the article prior to that deletion: "there is a new power house in foreign policy namely Strategic Policy Consulting, Inc." The article read like spam, and I feel was deleted appropriately. The four versions that have been speedy deleted since the AfD deletion have contained less content than the first entry, with the content being less spam like but containing nothing to assert notability. That Alireza Jafarzadeh is the company's president is not in my opinion sufficient to make the company itself notable, as what minimal content has been included in the five deleted versions of the article could very easily be merged into the Alireza Jafarzadeh article. There is a claim above that this company is the primary source of intelligence on Iran for the United States. If that is true, then that is certainly enough claim to notability for an article. However, the claim at this point is uncited. I invite the person who made this deletion review request to create a proposed article at Strategic Policy Consulting/Temp, complete with citations and references substantiating this group's notability. This will give us an opportunity to fairly evaluate if there really is a claim to notability here or if the content should be included in the Alireza Jafarzadeh article, with perhaps a redirect from the subject article. --Durin 21:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse speedy-deletions as recreated content. Allow a rewrite in the Temp space citing independent third-party sources and demonstrating how this company meets the criteria of WP:CORP. I note that this page was rewritten during the AFD discussion by user:12.38.30.1, an IP address whose registration traces back to the same street address as this company. It was reposted word-for-word by that same IP and by two other IPs, leading me to believe that this is a single insider posting about his/her company. If you think you or your company might be important enough for an article, it's always a good idea to wait and let someone else write it. Rossami (talk) 22:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Update: In reviewing the contribution history of the anon IP user, every edit made to other articles has apparently either been deleted or reverted as vandalism. That does seem to make it harder to assume good faith in this particular case. Rossami (talk) 01:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted stub article which made absolutely no claim to encyclopaedic notability. Just zis Guy you know? 08:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I will take up Durin's offer to write a new article on Strategic Policy Consulting. I assure everyone it will not read like an advertisement. If my rewrite of the Alireza Jafarzadeh is any indication it will probably result in another item on my vandal patrol to-do list.

To those above who were apprehensive at the thought of powerful people using Wikipedia for background, it happens regularly. We know for a fact government officials, politicians and other powerful people use Google. Wikipedia articles are often listed close to the top of a Google search and may be the first non-corporate information browsers encounter. At present the number two listing on a Google search for 'strategic policy consulting inc.' is http://www.answers.com/topic/strategic-policy-consulting-inc. The answers.com article is a direct copy of the Wikipedia article recently deleted, even citing Wikipedia as its source. Scary as it is, when powerful people search the web for information today, Wikipedia is often one of the first places they look. --Dave 00:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Actuarial Outpost

This article was previously nominated for deletion with a decision of non-consensus. I question that the article meets neutrality and verifiability conditions for wiki articles. The original article was submitted by a member of the chat site as a vanity piece. The author, Avi, goes by the same name here and on the chat site. He is listed on the web chat site as a site supporter, which he describes as people who contributed funds to sustain the site. Also, most of the article is not verifiable as to who visits, size or influence.Deletionary 03:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• User's 5 edits are all to a AfD or DRV. Kimchi.sg 03:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Unless you have reason to think that the judgement of non consensus is incorrect, and that really there WAS a consensus to delete but the admin missed it, the best thing to do is to wait an appropriate time, and relist the article. DRV is not for revisiting the deletion discussion itself (which it often is helpful to give a link to, though, by the way) but rather for discussing whether there's some reason that it needs to be overturned. IMHO anyway. ++Lar: t/c 05:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete It appears the decision of non-consensus was unduly influenced by the "author" of the site's article and other members of the site who do not satisfy a neutrality requirement. I was not aware of this information and likely the reviewer was not aware either. The user name Avi, is identified as a financial contributor, site supporter, of the site the article is about. Wikipedia is supposed to be a community project and guided by neutrality and verifiable content. I am disappointed that opinions can be inserted into this project so easily in the form of non-neutral vanity pieces. I suppose I come to wikipwedia with too high of expectations.Deletionary 12:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

11 June 2006

The Esplanade Mall

Sheesh - I had to hunt through my browser history to find this. It was deleted recently on VFD. I found it soon after in CAT:CSD tagged at a repost. When I found it, it already was not "just a lengthy list of stores that exist at a mall" as the originally-deleted article was. I cleaned it up and completely rewrote it; the article included information about it being closed due to Hurricane Katrina. And yet it was still deleted as a repost. --SPUI (T - C) 18:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I was the admin who last deleted this article (it had been deleted as a repost once before). Although the content had been slightly rewritten it was fundamentally the same article. I believe that there may have been some confusion here, because the original article also contained a list of stores (but not only a list of stores - as a comment on the AfD indicated). Please let me know if you want me to retrieve the actual contents. Cheers TigerShark 19:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  I remember rewriting it - the grammar was horrible. Also, one of the "votes" reads:

  Even the cleaned-up version (of Clearview Mall) is simply a list of stores. If the article were to contain additional information, such as history of the mall, significant stores that have come and gone, significant events held at the mall, etc. I'd say keep.

  Given that the article as rewritten included some history, either Rehcsif didn't bother to read the article, or the article as rewritten was not the one on VFD. --SPUI (T - C) 19:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse speedy deletion. The article as it stood at the time when the AfD was closed and the article deleted was substantially similar to the most recent version, the main difference being that the most recent version was better written and some cruft had been jettisoned (which did not affect the rationale for deletion - non-notability). A mention of the mall being affected by Hurricane Katrina was inserted into the article only an hour after the AfD began, and didn't sway any editors. And is that really the most interesting thing to say about this shopping centre? Certainly Hurricane Katrina damaged loads of places and doesn't confer notability by association. Unless there's something verified about it that hasn't been brought up yet worth putting in an encyclopaedia, keep deleted. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 19:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • If "votes" that concur with deletion of the present article due to its problems are to be taken as "votes" against any future article on the topic, I will be sure to "vote" to keep any article about a shopping mall, no matter how shitty the writing is. On the one hand, people say to "vote" on how the current article is, not on what it could be, but then (presumably) others delete any new article as a re-creation. --SPUI (T - C) 19:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Restore. For any mall, it is worth describing its role as a transit hub, if this is the case. TruthbringerToronto 20:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist at AfD per TruthbringerToronto. (I tagged the latest recreation of the article, which SPUI removed.) Let's see if SPUI (and others?) can expand the article enough. Kimchi.sg 03:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• 'Relist might as well see the contents and judge based on those, it sounds like it might be an expandable subject. --tjstrf 05:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • We already did that, and so far no new content has been presented to judge since the AfD closed 3 days ago. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. It was listed alongside Clearview Mall, and both received an overwhelming proportion of delete votes, including comments like "malls are not inheirantly notable" and "malls are generally not notable." and "I appreciate the idea and effort, but articles on the malls of towns falls under Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information." GeorgeStepanek\^talk 11:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I'm going to use one of my rare free moments to make a quick comment about this article. I originally listed the article for AfD when it was a list of malls, I would still place in AfD after seeing the recreated article. This mall wasn't the only thing that was hit by Hurricane Katrina, many more things were devasted by it. For instance, homes, roads, a large stadium, people's lives. By placing an article on a mall and stating that it's notable because it closed due to a large Hurricane, is making a mockery of people's lives and of the purpose of Wikipedia. Nothing notable happened in this mall to make it noteworthy, and the closing of a mall due to a hurricane (which is what the mall is SUPOSED to do, so that makes it norm), is not anywhere near the quality that Wikipedia needs to maintain. Yanksox 11:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse speedy-deletion. I reviewed a number of the deleted versions of this article both before and after the deletion decision. I do not consider them sufficiently different to have addressed the core concerns raised during the deletion discussion. Rossami (talk) 22:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy undelete as an improper speedy deletion. Silensor 19:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, no significant improvment has been made. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 20:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Sydney Ling

I feel that this one was badly handled on account of two things - I believe that there was clearly a consensus (and just a few votes shy of a supermajority) for deleting the article. Even more troubling, however, is the fact that the moderator Mailer diablo literally closed the debate and then actually retired from Wikipedia! (At least according to his user page - this all has happened today.) In any case, I'm a bit distressed both because of the outcome and the fact that the mod just got up and left the community straight after. I believe that this was mishandled, and I'd advocate an overturn and delete; here's the original AfD. Thanks! Girolamo Savonarola 13:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Shame about Mailer leaving; it does mean we can't ask him to explain himself. This seems a borderline case; I'd suggest overturning the close and relisting. Mackensen (talk) 14:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Endorse closure. I think you are confusing the way these deletion debates are handled. Consensus is a higher standard than a mere supermajority. It means that we pay as much or more attention to the weight of arguments as we do to the weight of numbers. Reviewing the discussion, I make a vote-count of 16 "delete" to 7 "keep" (with one probable troll discounted). Had there been strong evidence, that could have been sufficient to interpret as the necessary "rough consensus" for deletion. In this case, however, the arguments focused on whether the person is notable enough to meet our recommended criteria for inclusion of biographies and neither side of this debate presented strong evidence either way. Furthermore, many of the participants explicitly qualified their opinions as "weak" (5 of the "keeps" were phrased as "weak keep" and 2 of the "deletes" were "weak delete"). Closing this discussion as "no consensus" seems to me to be well within the reasonable discretion of a closing admin.
  Note: a "no consensus" decision defaults to keep for now but does not prevent anyone from gathering stronger evidence and renominating it for deletion after a reasonable delay. Rossami (talk) 14:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

How, exactly, does one gain stronger evidence of non-notability? You cannot prove a negative, right? I understand that it is not merely a matter of votes, but I offered up what I could, and no one else had much to say. This may be because there wasn't much left to say - those for keeping didn't speak up to justify their votes, while those who voted to delete explained their specific rationale (re notability). Were they expected to expound on it for a full paragraph each? Clearly they felt the matter was a simple one and didn't feel the need to orate on it. While I respect that this isn't necessary what is sought after in an AfD, please let me know what else could have been done, if something wasn't handled well. Girolamo Savonarola 14:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

To gain stronger evidence of non notability, search in more and different, yet still appropriate, places and present the negative results. ++Lar: t/c 11:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, Lar, surely the onus is on those claiming notability to prove that is the case, and not the other way round as it's based on WP:V, verifying that he's notable. (also see comment below) Regards, MartinRe 12:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I agree. I was just directly answering the question asked. However, on a RE list, I think the lister has some responsibility to present new information, sufficient to justify why the previous result was unsatisfactory, or to show that things have changed in some way . That said, I agree with what you say below (and endorse the closure), because "the passage of time with no new notability proof" is a kind of "change in some way". ++Lar: t/c 12:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure the afd focused on whether the subject was notable enough, and the opinion seemed to be borderline, verging on no, so "no consensus" seems a fair enough call on the afd. (if in doubt, don't delete, but not enough case for full keep) However, the notability claims need to be strengthened to remove that doubt, if this is not done, then it could be brought to afd again after a reasonable time, and if the arguements are similar, it will probably swing to delete, with the additional factor of no claims being found since the last afd weighing against the notability claim. Regards, MartinRe 12:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, Mailer diablo does not need to explain himself, the no consensus to delete is quite clear. Silensor 19:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Siberian language

This page has been unilaterally deleted by moderator Alex Bakharev, based on a VfD of more than a year ago. I should point out, however, that a lot of things can change in a year's time, and I have such a feeling that this is the case here. Besides, the contents of the recreated article was completely different from the previous (deleted) version. I should also point out that there is a pending request for a wikipedia in the language, and therefore I think this article is not only of value, but even necessary. I propose undeleting it immediately and issuing a normal AfD procedure instead. — --IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 09:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Original deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Siberian language. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Abstain - The current contents are indeed vastly different than the old, and it does seem perhaps a bit odd to delete as a recreate of a validly deleted article. That being said, the new content was incredibly poor, with bad spelling, links to livejournal, and many of the other markers of a poor article. I also wonder whether it's appropriate to call this a language -- by the article it sounds more like a description of a dialect (perhaps like calling a Boston accent a Boston language?). In sum, I don't know if there's any content worth keeping, and the title's probably misleading too. I'm open to lines of reasoning by other people on this one. --Improv 10:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The matter is just to construct a full language on the base of dialect --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Are you saying this is a project to build a language out of a dialect? Are you involved? How big is this? --Improv 15:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • 1. Yes. 2. We have group of 81 persons who work at it - http://community.livejournal.com/learn_siberian/profile, but I am the leader of this group. 3. It has 15000 words in dictionary now http://volgota.com/govor/language/lj.doc.zip? online dictionary provided by ukrainian research group (NOT me, I can not program) http://totem.in.ua/sib/trans.php, it has rather wide literature of abouat 100 texts http://volgota.com/govor/, it has news service http://volgota.com/news/, so surely it is not OR --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Endorse Deletion - No disrespect is intended for you or your project, but this is too small and too new a project to be covered on Wikipedia, and this smacks of using Wikipedia as a promotional vehicle. Maybe in a few years, this might be appropriate for an article, but as for right now, the article is too close to original research (I doubt there are independent studies of the language) and promo. --Improv 16:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted - Utter nonsense. There is absolutely no such thing as the "Siberian language". --Timothy Usher 10:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • just see it at http://volgota.com - newspaper, books, site interface. Wiki has many articles about languages not so developed as Siberian --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - The language was developed from the time of last deletion, now it is very complicated, many texts translated and written, many people learning it, a big site launched, so it is not "non-notable" conlang now --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - I absolutely agree with Yaroslav Zolotaryov. By the way, the site about siberian language and test wiki on siberian --Steel archer 14:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Both of these accounts were created to vote on Deletion Review. Not cool. --Improv 16:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • You can see my history in UK and Yaroslav's (Anarch) history in RU Wikipedias. Why new users can't vote? --Steel archer 21:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted - no reliable sources, unverifiable. --Pjacobi 12:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Just search in Google "siberian language/сибирский язык/сибирской говор/сибірська мова". And look at test siberian wiki. There are 5-10 millions people in Siberia (and not only there) what spoke on this language, and I'm. too. Do you think I'm speaking on language what is not exist? :) --Steel archer 16:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, looking at the article, the VfD was as valid today as it was last year. --fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 12:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Please, elucidate your thought. --Steel archer 16:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. This looks like an attempt to promote a non-notable constructed language. There are no independent, neutral sources to confirm the existance of a specific "Siberian language" as described in the article. There are several languages spoken in Siberia, but this article does not adress any of them. --Ezeu 12:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Just search in Google "siberian language/сибирский язык/сибирской говор/сибірська мова". And look at test siberian wiki. There are 5-10 millions people in Siberia (and not only there) what spoke on this language, and I'm. too. Do you think I'm speaking on language what is not exist? :) --Steel archer 15:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • The test wiki is not an independent reliable source. Much of it is written by some people participating here. --Ezeu 12:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Siberian language was prohibited in Russian Empire and Soviet Union. And now, most of people which are against this language are russian imperialists indeed. And this is a reason why it is rather difficult to find sources about siberian. There are no full literature siberian language: Yaroslav Zolotaryov just constructs it basing on many siberian dialects. So, you can hardly ever find people speak on ""literature"" siberian - only on its dialects. --Steel archer 16:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist to AfD: from my reading in linguistics I would expect it to be deleted there, but it would give non-admins the chance to debate the deletion on the merits of its content, especially as it doesn't seem to meet the recreated content CSD. --Aquilina 12:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - This page needs to be undeleted. The language has already been constructed. It is based on a local dialect, but its' origins are really beside the point. There is, for example, a wiki page for Talossan language, that has been constructed by a single person for a country completely invented by him, and whose "words and grammar are just made up at random". Surely Siberian has far better basis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.20.29.135 (talk • contribs) 13:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• The speedy-deleted version was significantly different from the deleted version. On that basis, I'm afraid that we must overturn the speedy-deletion and relist to AFD. However, I am deeply skeptical that the article will prevail during the deletion discussion. The prior deletion discussion was unanimous and included the opinion of the alleged author of this recently constructed language. None of the concerns raised in the prior deletion debate have been answered either in the redeleted article nor in this discussion so far. The wiki does not meet the required standards for a reliable source and the google test (168 unique hits) returns very little that appears relevant. Every hit I scanned used the phrase "Siberian language" in the casual sense of "a language used by a community indiginous to the geographic area of Siberia", not in the sense of a unified language. Rossami (talk) 14:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • You can try the google test in russian language, and will see many sources about the siberian not from me or Volgota group. Being an artefact of local culture, it is simply not mentioned in the english-speaking audience --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Without sources that are functionally verifiable by the english-speaking participants of the English Wikipedia, that won't help much. Perhaps this would be more appropriate if transwiki'd to the Russian Wikipedia]? Rossami (talk) 14:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Better to the ukrainian article in http://ukr.wikipedia.org/wiki, because we believe it is more ibjective. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Weak overturn and relist per Aquilina. The version debated on VfD was a short stub, while the version deleted as G4 was fairly detailed. That said, I'd say the new version fails WP:OR pretty hard, and should be deleted or heavily shortened on that basis unless independent sources are provided. It's almost a WP:SNOW case, but I'm personally willing to give it its five days on AfD, just in case I'm proven wrong. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 14:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Some independent sources http://dpni.org/forum/post48701.html

    http://e-novosti.info/forumo/viewtopic.php?t=1819 (discussion about necessary of tukr words are they allowed or not)

    Kazakhstan article http://www.dialog.kz/site.php?lan=russian&id=76&pub=1032 (positive)

    Ukrainian article http://lab.org.ua/article/727/ (positive)

    Latvian forum http://www.evangelie.ru/forum/archive/t-14778-p-2.html (positive reaction)

    Ukrainian forums http://forum.sevastopol.info/viewtopic.php?p=134921&sid=e1bfb2dad69ccbe92f653f8e69a61352 http://www.novy.tv/ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20068&sid=6dfe6e7e13df8be971f34aa81aa365c5 (positive reaction, people reciting verses in siberian)

    Russian forum http://www.disenteria.ru/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=7492&s= (some people from Siberia testify that they know this words and grammar)

    Moscow forum http://forum.msk.ru/wap/news.wml?id=2200 (negative reaction, but the language considered natural)

    --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

    • Do you have any sources in English? The sources above may well substantiate the claims in the article for all I know, but I can't really tell since my grasp of Russian is almost nonexistent. Failing that, you might try to find a neutral established Wikipedian who understands Russian to review the sources — any volunteers? (In any case, this discussion belongs on AfD, should the article get relisted there, not here on DRV. If you wish to reply in length, please do so on my talk page or wait for the AfD listing.) —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist as different, where I will vote delete as this asserts the factual existence of this language, but no reliable sources have been produced to suggest that it is anything other than a conlang. Just zis Guy you know? 16:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per Mikka, who speaks several comparable languages and is (unlike the average AfD voter) able to understand the supposed sources. Just zis Guy you know? 22:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• keep deleted. original research. No independent information from anywhere but fans' writings provided. (forums are not allowed as sources for wikipedia) `'mikka (t) 19:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: this is nót about the question whether it is a good article or not. If there's something wrong with an article, it should be improved. Perhaps the English wasn't perfect indeed, and perhaps there was a link to a blog or something, but I think this article was still a lot better than the average stub. That kind of things can be fixed easily without deleting an article. Neither is this about the question whether constructed languages in general should be in Wikipedia or not. Nor about the question whether this article was original research. This is about the way it was deleted! Every time when a conlang is listed for deletion, they say: at present this language is not notable enough, but when that has changed, by all means create an article about it. Now, I think there are reasons to assume that that is indeed the case here. I can see many reasons why the language is notable enough. But even if I'm wrong, the merits of Siberian should be discussed properly in an AfD discussion, but definitely not here. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 21:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Surely, the article can be changed, my english is poor, and my view to the language is definitely non-neutral, so if would be better article, it would be fine --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted per WP:NOR. It's just another LiveJournal flashmob. MaxSem 21:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • That's exactly the point. That might have been true one year ago, it definitely isn't true anymore. But again, let's not start discussing the article itself, but the way it has been deleted. At present, no one can even read what the discussion is about. I think the least it deserves is a proper AfD discussion, pending which every participant in the discussion can read the article. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 21:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment: I've temporarily undeleted the history for the duration of this DRV discussion. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Extreme speedy keep deleted. OR, an attempt at advertising an nn conlang, nothing has changed to make this more notable than the first decision to delete. We're not here to reargue the AfD, but to discuss whether or not the original deletion was appropriate. It was, it still is. User:Zoe|^(talk) 23:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Pardon me, but this is not about the question whether the original deletion was appropriate. It no doubt was. If little Pete writes an article about his hobbies, then it will be deleted. But if he's suddenly elected president of the USA, does that mean there can't be an article about him because there has already been a valid VfD? What bothers me is this: once an article has survived an AfD, it can be relisted for deletion again, and again, and again, until the deletionists get their way. But once an article has been deleted, there is no way go get it back, even if things may have changed. I think that's bad, very bad! —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 08:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: out of curiosity I looked into the website of the "language". After reading the "translation" of Pushkin quoted below I am more inclined to believe this is a practical joke rather than a serious attempt to revive a supposedly extinct "Siberian" dialect of Russian. Native Russian speakers, prepare for a good laugh:

  Мой дедя шыбко чесных веров,

  Кода-от шыбко захворал,

  Людям дык всю дыхню зашкерил,

  В горбыль всех просто зайобал.

  And there is more of this.`'mikka (t) 23:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  • But such were dialetical expressions of the same meaning which is in Pushkin verse, and you laugh simply for diregarding the folk speech --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Hmm, Eugene Onegin in hillbilly... ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 08:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Tread carefully the fine line between humour and mockery. --Ezeu 08:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • No mockery of Pushkin there, Pushkin himself liked dialects, used them, if he were alive now, he perhaps voted for siberian here. His poem "Ruslan and Ludmila" was also regarded as mockery just for using dialectical words and common people's relation to the topic of this poem. So in fact, our group continues Pushkin's work, but conservators are against him --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Irrelevant. Just like "bad spelling", "links to livejournal", "too small and too new a project", "no such thing as the Siberian language", "no reliable sources", "promotion" and "original research" are irrelevant here. Again, this discussion should not be about the language itself. We have AfD discussions for that. This discussion is about the question whether an article that has been deleted in the remote past can or cannot be recreated. The admin in question has unilaterally deleted the article and locked the page, and thát is the decision I'm questioning here. People's personal tastes have no place in such discussion. For the record, I don't have a clear opinion on the matter. I'm in no way connected to the creators of the language. What I can tell as one of Wikipedia's self-proclaimed resident conlang experts, is that a lot seems to have changed since the last AfD. If the language has indeed a group of 80 active users, and if there is some press coverage, then it just might qualify for an article. Besides, we have this discussion about a wikipedia in the language going on. Personally, I don't believe this is a hoax. But like I said, that kind of arguments belong in an AfD discussion, not here. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 08:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    • This was not an argument. This was a comment that started this thread. This zolotarev guy extended his hobby joke as to suggest a siberian language wikipedia. How do you imagine wikipedia in hillbilly. This alone says something about this project. As for 80 active users: how do you know that? Somehow I don't believe Zolotaryov. The basic argument against undeletion is wikipedia:Verifiability. The "some" press coverage seen is not a reliable source, it is still word of language creator's mouth, not of an independent linguistics expert. In other words, the major objection voiced during deletion is not addressed by the new version. Article size doesn't matter. `'mikka (t) 17:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
      • A hundred years ago Ukrainian was also considered "hillbilly Russian" by the czarist government. In other words, thát argument doesn't really hold stake. As for your point regarding verifiability: I tend to agree with you here. I'd love to see some samples of real press coverage, because thát is IMO what makes the difference. I don't know whether to believe Mr. Zolotaryov or not. The whole discussion evokes quite strong reminiscences of High Icelandic. If you haven't seen it, I'd say it's worth to take a look at the AfD discussion there. My whole point is only that I think the subject deserves proper discussion, and this is not the place for it. In a normal AfD discussion I certainly wouldn't have voted "keep" without convincing arguments. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 22:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • But it should be defined, what argument are relevant in the english wiki. If it will be defined with certainity, I shall find them. "There is no such language at all" surely is not an argument. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted this nonsense, please. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 18:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, keep deleted. AfD had six deletes, no keeps. No suggestion of any voting irregularities or debatable sysop judgement. I note too that the article has no real references; the fact that one of the external links is described as "Volgota, the main promo site" strongly suggests that the purpose of the article is not to synthesize published factual material into an encyclopedia article, but to promote a project. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Quite so. Nobody is arguing that the AfD was invalid. But for heaven's sake, that was over a year ago! A lot can change in the meantime. If Yaroslav can somehow substantiate his claims about the number of speakers, and provide some verifiable info regarding press coverage, then I can't see why the article wouldn't deserve a second chance. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 05:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • In what way can I substantiate it? What info about the press is verifiable? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I see no reason to believe that this Yaroslav fellow (among others) has any existence beyond that of a sockpuppet created to vote in this deletion review..Timothy Usher 05:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • But I do! User's first contribution was dated 10 June, 18:49 (UTC). This deletion review was dated 11 June, 9:32 (UTC). So tell me: how can this account have been created with the sole purpose of voting here, if there wasn't any vote yet? I think it's always better to assume good faith! —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 07:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, nn and ue. Also, there seems to be a campaign to start a separate Wikipedia in this language. What's next Klingon and Elvish Wikipedias? --Irpen 01:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • There used to be a wikipedia in Klingon, but it has been closed down. An Elvish wikipedia has been proposed, but I don't think there's enough support for it. BTW, I'm not thát frequent a guest here; what does "ue" mean? —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 05:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Those must have been shut down for a reason. ue=unencyclopedic, nn=non-notable. --Irpen 15:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Nonsense. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 15:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Nonsense of course. Elk Salmon 08:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - Article is present in four Wikipedians (ru:Сибирский язык, be:Сыбірская мова, eo:Siberia lingvo,uk:Сибiрська мова). Please see also discussion in Russian Wikipedia (ru:Обсуждение:Сибирский язык) There article is solved keep and increase. See also article Slovio - such constructed language --Yakudza 15:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It is also being considered for deletion on the Russian Wikipedia, with a current consensus to delete (see ru:Википедия:К удалению/14 июня 2006#Сибирский язык) ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 01:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Very Weak Overturn and immediate AfD - The original was just a stub; for the sake of process, the deleted content should have its day in court. Being a linguist, I am sure it will fail AfD. I think the effort might be notable enough to (very briefly) mention the attempted "promotion" of a dialect in another article (Russian language, maybe?), but it definately doesn't deserve its own article.--WilliamThweatt 15:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion per mikka & MaxSem, article is original research. ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 01:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

10 June 2006

Template:Major_programming_languages

I did not see the TfD discussion until after someone acted on it to remove the template from an article I watch. Looking through the discussion, it appears that the discussion had 11 delete votes, and 6 keep votes (FWIW, I would have voted "keep" if I had noticed it). It doesn't seem like deletion on a bare majority is the right closing action (no consensus would be more fitting). As far as I can see, all the votes on both sides were cast in good faith, by established editors, and accompanied by reasonable statements of reasons. So the conduct of the discussion seems eminently reasonable... it just doesn't seem to have been closed correctly. LotLE×talk 20:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Note: Original TFD: Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_May_25#Template:Major_programming_languages — xaosflux ^Talk 00:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. I would have closed this TfD the same way IceKarma did. Unless Lulu's opinion would have brought with it a fantastic new argument, I doubt including his "vote" amongst the others would have tipped the balance, either. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 09:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  No,I wouldn't have had any fantastic argument that was much different from other voters. I just think that a supermajority (i.e. 75-80%, or at the least 66%) should be required for deletion, rather than just a majority (absent evidence of sockpuppetry, or clearly more experienced editors on one side of a vote, or other special circumstance... none of which existed here). 11/7 is pretty much the same thing as 11/6 in this regard. LotLE×talk 17:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  Well, *fD's being not a vote is more than just discounting inexperience or sockpuppetry. It also means that an overwhelming majority is not required for consensus to exist. Now, don't get me wrong; I'm generally in favor of keeping articles over deleting them (as long as they're maintainable and verifiable), but it seems clear from the discussion that maintaining the template was plain infeasible, by consensus. I also note that there was no prejudice against creating a new, more maintainable template. Powers 18:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  When did I mention the tally? When closing AfDs, MfDs, RfDs, and the occasional (during the long dark teatime of the soul) TfD, I make a point of never counting the number of "votes". Knowledge of the raw numbers will shed no light on the appropriate course of action, and is thus unnecessary and occasionally even obfuscatory. Bugger the tally. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 04:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Lulu: Tfd is not a vote! Don't count comments like it was one. --Cyde↔Weys 03:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

06 June 2006

Image:WikiPâques.png

Image:WikiPâques.png was deleted in February on the basis it was an orphan. Well, of course it was an orphan - it was February and the image was an Easter Wikipedia logo, so it'll only be unorphaned when it's Easter. I see no valid reason to delete this. Users may still want it on their user page at Easter. It's also causing red links in older revisions. See Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2006 February 14 for the listing on IfD. There's a copy here if the deletion is overturned and someone wants to reupload it. Angela. 08:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Re-upload to Commons, so any project can use it, and Commons is outside of enwiki's jurisdiction. --Rory096 08:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Upload to Commons, it doesn't appear to be english, but may be useful. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Recently concluded

2006 June

1. Okashina_Okashi - Decision of the original closer to relist at AfD is endorsed. 15:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
2. Dismal's Paradox - Relisted at AfD. 15:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
3. User:SPUI/jajaja - Nomination withdrawn. 13:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
4. List of political leaders widely regarded as totalitarian - Request for information answered. 05:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
5. Certainty principle - Deletion endorsed. 16:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
6. Cultural references in Pokémon - Deletion endorsed. 16:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
7. Fluffy (The Lion King) - Deletion endorsed. 16:28, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
8. Kelly Roberti - Copyright issue resolved, restored. 11:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
9. Image:Pierre Janssen.jpg - Commons image, action impossible here. 15:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC) Review
10. Neanderthal theory of autism - Deletion endorsed. 15:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
11. Be bold, Be Bold - Overturn RfD and revert to WP:BOLD. 15:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
12. Jeff Lindsay - Deletion endorsed. 15:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
13. "State Debate Associations" - Deletion endorsed. 15:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
14. How NOT to steal a SideKick 2 - Deletion endorsed. 17:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
15. Kinston Indians - Deletion endorsed. 17:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
16. Wikipedia:SCAG - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
17. Image:Nuvola 64 apps important.png - undeletion impossible; deleted prior to 16 June 2006. 13:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
18. Sick Nick Mondo - Deletion endorsed for now, pending AfD outcome for related Nick Mondo; should that survive, this is a suitable redirect. 18:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review

    Nick Mondo having survived AfD, this is restored as a redirect. 15:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

19. True Torah Jews - Deletion endorsed. 18:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review
20. UCIP - Deletion endorsed. 18:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review
21. Mending Wall - Keep endorsed. 11:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review
22. Fred Wilson (venture capitalist) - Deletion endorsed. 17:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
23. TheSmartMarks.com - Deletion endorsed. 17:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
24. Dirt pudding - Transwiki and deletion endorsed. 17:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
25. Kirill Makharinsky - Deletion endorsed. 17:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
26. Armando Lloréns-Sar - History restored, maintained as redirect; merge issues are an editorial concern for article's talk page. 17:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
27. Hollywood Undead - Deletion endorsed. 17:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
28. Trexy - Closing administrator agreed to relist AFD. 03:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC) Review
29. Stir of Echoes: The Dead Speak - No consensus closure endorsed. 18:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
30. Knox (animator) - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 18:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
31. Lightsaber combat - Keep closure endorsed. 18:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
32. Stone Trek - Deletion closure endorsed. 18:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
33. File:944 h.jpg - DRV closed, image in Commons jurisdiction. 18:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
34. Sadullah Khan - Undeleted, relisted. 18:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
35. Atromitos - Undeleted. 18:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
36. Walk To Emmaus - Deletion endorsed. 18:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
37. Wikipedia:Conservative notice board. Kept deleted. Strong endorsement. 20:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC) Review.
38. Lost: The Journey - Relisted. 18:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
39. User:Dtm142/User no evil boxes and Template:User Gangster - Undeleted. 18:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
40. The Lost Boys (demogroup) - Relist. 17:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
41. Second War (Harry Potter) - Deletion endorsed. 17:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
42. IRCDig - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
43. Saryn Hooks - Undeleted and relisted at AfD. 17:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
44. Template:Major_programming_languages - template content restored 06:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC) review
45. Strategic Policy Consulting - Deletion endorsed. 16:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC) Review
46. Actuarial Outpost - Kept kept, mistaken nomination. 16:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC) Review
47. Image:WikiPâques.png - Uploaded to Commons, as suggested. 16:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
48. The Esplanade Mall - Deletion endorsed by narrow majority. 16:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
49. Sydney Ling - AfD result of "no consensus" endorsed. 15:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
50. Siberian language - Deletion endorsed. 15:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
51. Burlington Center Mall - Challenge of no consensus afd withdrawn. 02:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
52. Erik Möller - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
53. theSMSzone.com and Kunal Singh - Deletions endorsed. 17:32, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
54. Wikipedia:OURS - Deletion endorsed by narrow majority. 17:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
55. 2001: A Space Odyssey (film synopsis) - Deletion endorsed. 17:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
56. Conservative Underground - Deletion endorsed. 17:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
57. Boring Business Systems - AfD reopened by acclamation. 20:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
58. Joseph D. Campbell - Previous AfD overturned, to be relisted at AfD. 16:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
59. Church of Reality - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 16:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
60. Heinen's - Result reversed by consensus, AfD now closed as "no consensus". 16:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
61. BB Sinha - Restored, listed at AfD. 16:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC) (deleted at AfD 20:27, 17 June 2006 (UTC)) Review
62. Mending Wall - Restored, listed at AfD, closed as keep, brought here again (above). 16:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
63. Cancer Bats - Restored, to be resubmitted to AfD in light of new evidence. 17:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
64. Cum On Her Face - Deletion endorsed. 16:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
65. AlternC - Deletion endorsed. 16:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
66. Tiffany Holiday - Deletion endorsed. 16:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
67. Shane Cubis - Deletion endorsed unanimously (excepting discounted anons/newbies.) 16:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
68. Certainty principle - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 16:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
69. Big Brother 7 chronology - Deletion endorsed. Will userfy upon request. 15:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Review
70. Wikimedia Meta-Wiki - action reverted by the closer. AFD reopened. 03:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Review
71. The Adventures of Dr. McNinja - Consensus to permit userpage draft as new recreation, will be submitted to AfD. 17:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Review
72. Cory kennedy - Deletion endorsed. 17:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Review
73. User:Rgulerdem/Wikiethics - Kept deleted unanimously. 17:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Review
74. Yar - Deletion endorsed without prejudice to unrelated redirect now at title. 17:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
75. List of midnight movies - Content restored for merge and redirect. 17:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
76. AK Productions - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
77. FAST - Fighting Antisemitism Together - Undeleted and sent to AfD. 17:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
78. List of tongue-twisters - Deletion endorsed in light of new Wikiquote transwiki. 17:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
79. User:Raphael1/Wikiethics - Deletion endorsed. 17:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
80. Roosters1908, Sydneyroosters1909, and Sydneyroosters1910 - Undeleted to be AfD'ed in light of new evidence. 17:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
81. National Hockey Leaque player lists - Restored speedily and AFD reopened. 08:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
82. User:AKMask/log - Restored (by a narrow margin) to be sent to MfD. 03:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
83. Male Unbifurcated Garment - Deletion endorsed (again -- Second DRV in two weeks.) 03:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
84. Penis banding - Deletion endorsed. 15:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC) Review
85. Template:User no notability - Deletion narrowly endorsed. (date unavailable, deletion review never archived) Permalink
86. Syed Ahmed - deletion endorsed, redirected to The Apprentice (UK series 2) 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
87. Ho Shin Do - deletion endorsed without prejudice 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
88. Israel News Agency - article content restored 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
89. Delaware County Intermediate Unit - Deletion closure endorsed. 00:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
90. Steve Bellone - Deletion closure endorsed unanimously. 00:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
91. Team NoA - Previous version restored, survived AfD as no consensus. 00:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
92. Springfield M21 - Restored as redirect with history. 16:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
93. The drips - Speedy deletion contested, overturned; sent to AfD. 15:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
94. Template:Voting icons - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 15:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
95. Ali Zafar - New NPOV recreation permitted. 03:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
96. Barbara Bauer, The Literary Agency Group and others - Bauer undeleted and kept at AfD; others kept deleted. 03:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
97. Scienter - deletion overturned. 03:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
98. Auto repair shop - original speedy deletion endorsed, without prejudice to now-existing distinct redirect at this title. 03:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
99. Wikipedia v search engines - deletion endorsed unanimously. 03:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
100. Pat Price - deletion overturned unanimously, no need to relist. 03:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
101. Talk:Brian Peppers - kept deleted. 00:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
102. The Juggernaut Bitch - article content restored 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
103. South Coast League - deletion endorsed 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
104. Other side of the pillow - deletion endorsed 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
105. Joel Leyden - article content restored 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
106. Sharting - deletion endorsed 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
107. User:Disavian/Userboxes/Green Energy - deletion endorsed, narrowly 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
108. Left-wing terrorism - article history restored 17:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
109. Stella Maris College Scout Group - deletion endorsed 17:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
110. List of Michael Savage neologisms - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
111. Superhorse - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
112. Exicornt - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
113. Image:Lock-icon.jpg - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
114. College Confidential - article content restored 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
115. Tim Dingle - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
116. Abstract People - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
117. Christian views of Hanukkah - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
118. Claught of a bird dairy products - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
119. LIP6 - continue from rewritten version 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
120. Hulk 2 - redirected to Hulk (film) for now 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
121. Xombie - article content restored 17:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
122. Possible wars between liberal democracies speedy-deletion undone by deleting admin. listed to AFD. 13:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
123. Gary Howell deletion endorsed. 20:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
124. New Sincerity - deletion endorsed. 20:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
125. Successful Praying - speedy deletion as copyvio endorsed. 20:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
126. Videohypertransference - user copy granted. deletion from articlespace endorsed. 20:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
127. Oz Categories 8 endorse, 5 overturn, deletion endorsed. 17:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC) Review

Userbox discussions

• Template:User no notability - deletion endorsed, narrowly 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
• Template:User organ donor template content restored 17:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
• User:CharonX/Userboxes/User christian See WP:TGS
• Template:User satanist kept deleted
• Template:User cannabis kept deleted
• Template:User CCP - kept deleted. 00:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
• Template:User against fox hunting (result keep deleted, WP:SNOW. Massive endorsement.)

Archives

• Wikipedia:Deletion review/Recently concluded (2006 May)
• Wikipedia:Deletion review/Recently concluded (2006 April)

Instructions

Before listing a review request, please:

1. Consider attempting to discuss the matter with the closer as this could resolve the matter more quickly. There could have been a mistake, miscommunication, or misunderstanding, and a full review may not be needed. Such discussion also gives the closer the opportunity to clarify the reasoning behind a decision.
2. Check that it is not on the list of perennial requests. Repeated requests every time some new, tiny snippet appears on the web have a tendency to be counter-productive. It is almost always best to play the waiting game unless you can decisively overcome the issues identified at deletion.

Steps to list a new deletion review

1.	Click here and paste the template skeleton at the top of the discussions (but not at the top of the page). Then fill in page with the name of the page, xfd_page with the name of the deletion discussion page (leave blank for speedy deletions), and reason with the reason why the discussion result should be changed. For media files, article is the name of the article where the file was used, and it shouldn't be used for any other page. For example: {{subst:drv2 |page=File:Foo.png |xfd_page=Wikipedia:Files for deletion/2009 February 19#Foo.png |article=Foo |reason= }} ~~~~
2.	Inform the editor who closed the deletion discussion by adding the following on their user talk page: {{subst:DRV notice|PAGE_NAME}} ~~~~
3.	For nominations to overturn and delete a page previously kept, attach <noinclude>{{Delrev|date=2024 May 15}}</noinclude> to the top of the page under review to inform current editors about the discussion.
4.	Leave notice of the deletion review outside of and above the original deletion discussion: If the deletion discussion's subpage name is the same as the deletion review's section header, use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 May 15}}</noinclude> If the deletion discussion's subpage name is different from the deletion review's section header, then use <noinclude>{{Delrevxfd|date=2024 May 15|page=SECTION HEADER AT THE DELETION REVIEW LOG}}</noinclude>

Commenting in a deletion review

Any editor may express their opinion about an article or file being considered for deletion review. In the deletion review discussion, please type one of the following opinions preceded by an asterisk (*) and surrounded by three apostrophes (''') on either side. If you have additional thoughts to share, you may type this after the opinion. Place four tildes (~~~~) at the end of your entry, which should be placed below the entries of any previous editors:

• Endorse the original closing decision; or
• Relist on the relevant deletion forum (usually Articles for deletion); or
• List, if the page was speedy deleted outside of the established criteria and you believe it needs a full discussion at the appropriate forum to decide if it should be deleted; or
• Overturn the original decision and optionally an (action) per the Guide to deletion. For a keep decision, the default action associated with overturning is delete and vice versa. If an editor desires some action other than the default, they should make this clear; or
• Allow recreation of the page if new information is presented and deemed sufficient to permit recreation.
• Some consider it a courtesy, to other DRV participants, to indicate your prior involvements with the deletion discussion or the topic.

Examples of opinions for an article that had been deleted:

• *'''Endorse''' The original closing decision looks like it was sound, no reason shown here to overturn it. ~~~~
• *'''Relist''' A new discussion at AfD should bring a more thorough discussion, given the new information shown here. ~~~~
• *'''Allow recreation''' The new information provided looks like it justifies recreation of the article from scratch if there is anyone willing to do the work. ~~~~
• *'''List''' Article was speedied without discussion, criteria given did not match the problem, full discussion at AfD looks warranted. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn and merge''' The article is a content fork, should have been merged into existing article on this topic rather than deleted. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn and userfy''' Needs more development in userspace before being published again, but the subject meets our notability criteria. ~~~~
• *'''Overturn''' Original deletion decision was not consistent with current policies. ~~~~

Remember that deletion review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the action specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate.

The presentation of new information about the content should be prefaced by Relist, rather than Overturn and (action). This information can then be more fully evaluated in its proper deletion discussion forum. Allow recreation is an alternative in such cases.

Temporary undeletion

Admins participating in deletion reviews are routinely requested to restore deleted pages under review and replace the content with the {{TempUndelete}} template, leaving the history for review by everyone. However, copyright violations and violations of the policy on biographies of living persons should not be restored.

Closing reviews

A nominated page should remain on deletion review for at least seven days, unless the nomination was a proposed deletion. After seven days, an administrator will determine whether a consensus exists. If that consensus is to undelete, the admin should follow the instructions at Wikipedia:Deletion review/Administrator instructions. If the consensus was to relist, the page should be relisted at the appropriate forum. If the consensus was that the deletion was endorsed, the discussion should be closed with the consensus documented.

If the administrator closes the deletion review as no consensus, the outcome should generally be the same as if the decision was endorsed. However:

• If the decision under appeal was a speedy deletion, the page(s) in question should be restored, as it indicates the deletion was not uncontroversial. The closer, or any editor, may then proceed to nominate the page at the appropriate deletion discussion forum, if they so choose.
• If the decision under appeal was an XfD close, the closer may, at their discretion, relist the page(s) at the relevant XfD.

Ideally all closes should be made by an administrator to ensure that what is effectively the final appeal is applied consistently and fairly but in cases where the outcome is patently obvious or where a discussion has not been closed in good time it is permissible for a non-admin (ideally a DRV regular) to close discussions. Non-consensus closes should be avoided by non-admins unless they are absolutely unavoidable and the closer is sufficiently experienced at DRV to make that call. (Hint: if you are not sure that you have enough DRV experience then you don't.)

Speedy closes

• Objections to a proposed deletion can be processed immediately as though they were a request at Wikipedia:Requests for undeletion
• Where the closer of a deletion discussion realizes their close was wrong, and nobody has endorsed, the closer may speedily close as overturn. They should fully reverse their close, restoring any deleted pages if appropriate.
• Where the nominator of a DRV wishes to withdraw their nomination, and nobody else has recommended any outcome other than endorse, the nominator may speedily close as "endorse" (or ask someone else to do so on their behalf).
• Certain discussions may be closed without result if there is no prospect of success (e.g. disruptive nominations, if the nominator is repeatedly nominating the same page, or the page is listed at WP:DEEPER). These will usually be marked as "administrative close".

14 June 2006

Lost: The Journey

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lost: The Journey
• Overturn and delete. The final tally was six deletes, one transwiki, one merge/delete, and one keep. However, closing admin Lar (talk · contribs · blocks · protections · deletions · page moves · rights · RfA) decided to act on his own initiative to countermand the consensus, stating instead there was no consensus because he felt that the one "keep" vote's reasoning was strong enough. I frankly don't follow his logic or understand what he found so notable about the one keep vote, but I think he's enforcing his own opinion over the decided-upon community consensus with this article, and thus appeal his decision here (as he invited people to do when closing the decision). — Mike • 02:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • A review of Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators#Rough consensus does not appear to yield any means by which seven out of nine votes — votes that were very clearly not made in bad faith — can be entirely discarded by the closing admin. — Mike • 03:09, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• I welcome review of this one, because it was dicey for me when I made the call. I acknowledge that numerically, the margin was wide. I don't think any of the comments (NOT votes) were made in bad faith at all, and didn't diacount the sentiments, but I was quite convinced by the argument made by ArgentiumOutlaw and after all, this is a judgement call, not a nose count. Naturally I think I got to the right outcome and would say Keep kept. But I welcome input from my peers, and thank you in advance for it. (BTW I'm excited, because this is my first DRV!) ++Lar: t/c 03:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • I mean this respectfully, but when reviewing the Wikipedia:Deletion guidelines for administrators document, I did not see anything within the document, barring bad faith situations, that allows an administrator to ignore the principle of rough consensus when making a decision closing a document. There is the paragraph that begins, "Some opinions can override all others," but the examples cited (copyvio, userfy, WP:V, WP:NOR, and WP:NPOV) do not seem to apply to the votes comments cast. — Mike • 03:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment. I have some learnings from this I'll be posting later as well as more responses but I'll let some of those sit. I do have one thing I want to point out which you'll just have to take my word for. Several commenters here are saying I let my personal feeling convince me how to close. Well, in part, that's where judgement does need to come in, on a close call, add in your own feeling... that's sometimes right and proper in my view (if the alternative is to relist for consensus the third time or do nothing, for example). But in this case, my PERSONAL view, had I chose to commment (on a 5 day overdue for close nom) instead of close... would have been DELETE. Clips are a bit more notable than regular episodes but I do not think any show, even this one, needs an article for every episode. I overlooked that view, because thought at the time that the fact that MedCab/Com was working on this was a reason not to rush this, leave it around, and let them resolve it later. (others below point out that's not necessarily a really good reason...). Also, the medcab argument was made late in the discussion. Arguments made late, if not commented on by people that commented before they were aware of the facts, tend to carry more weight with me when judging consensus. And make no mistake, I was judging consensus without taking my personal desire to delete into account. If this goes back on AfD I'll leave it to someone else to close, so I can comment DELETE. I just don't think that was the right thing to do in view of the mediation thing. If it gets overturned, I'll delete it myself and happily, unless someone beats me to it. One BIG learning I have from this already is the need to explain in more detail when necessary (check out Splash's Phil Sandifer close explanation, it's a model. I hope to be that good someday)... ++Lar: t/c 16:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete, I fail to see what was so strong about the one keep comment that ruled out six delete comments. (Disclaimer: I voted delete in the AfD in question.) BryanG^(talk) 03:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • comment Seven, actually. There was a merge/delete in there. — Mike • 03:34, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That's not really a valid vote. You can't merge *and* delete, the edit history needs to be preserved. Closers typically count those as keep votes, since they wanted to keep the content, just didn't understand the finer points of the GFDL. Transwiki votes go as keeps too, while we're at it, since the person also wanted to keep the content. --W.marsh 03:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

And that's why I didn't count the merge/delete vote, although looking at it again I would interpret it as "merge if considered useful or delete". But then, I'm not an admin. It wasn't a straight delete comment anyway, so I'm not counting it as such. BryanG^(talk) 03:49, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Thanks W.marsh. SO if we ARE insisting on counting votes here, it's 6:3. That's 66% which is a Keep No Consensus. I have a couple of other bones to pick here... first, Mike you keep talking about good faith, and I wish you would stop, because I saw no comments I judged to be in bad faith. Second, you keep citing the Deletion Guideline like it's a process that cannot be deviated from. It's not the law, it's a guide... and we admins are asked to use our judgement. I hope you have internalised that before you become an admin yourself. Third, you suggest I'm "enforcing my own opinion"... "countermanding consensus"... that's not at all fair, those terms are quite loaded, in my view anyway. What I did was look at the arguments made, look at the article and its contents, and made a considered judgement that there wasn't a consensus to delete. That's what the closing admin is supposed to do. This article was 4 days overdue for a decision and I've been thinking about it for some time (I looked at a lot of these on my lunch hour). I also asked some of my admin colleauges on IRC for their thoughts and they agreed with me that K-NC was the right outcome. I'm hopeful that some of them will pop in here. Maybe I'm wrong though and this really was a Delete. I'd like to learn from it if that's the case... but telling me to read something that's a guide, and that I've already read, isn't going to help me learn. ++Lar: t/c 03:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

First, I am citing good faith solely in the context of the deletion guidelines citing bad faith as a valid reason to delete. I am not applying the concept of good or bad faith to your actions. I am bringing it up solely in the context of citing the relevant policy and guidelines that address the actions you take when closing a vote.

Second, I would again repeat my request for any Wikipedia policy or document that provides administrators with the freedom to use their judgment to make a decision that goes against rough consensus when making deletion closures. The relevant cites I can find indicate that in the deletion policy, it states, "At the end of the discussion, if a rough consensus for deletion has been reached, the page will be removed per Wikipedia:Deletion process; otherwise the page remains." Rough consensus is defined as outlined in this subsection, with a link to this Wikipedia article.

Third, were we to make the case that a vote, through some improper terminology, should not be included, it should not be included in the total when considering what proportion of the votes are delete votes. In other words, it is not that six out of nine votes were cast to delete, it is that six out of seven votes (85%) were cast to delete. But I really don't agree with those figures, either. That leads me into ...

Fourth, I disagree that the merge/delete vote should not be counted. The text of that vote states, "Merge anything useful into the main Lost article ... otherwise Delete if there is nothing that editors of that article consider to be useful." I believe the text of that vote quite effectively counts as a delete vote. That would make this seven out of eight votes (87.5%).

— Mike • 04:17, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure well within his discretion, especially considering you can argue that the votes were 3/9 in favor of keeping, and that's a marginal consensus to delete at best. Lar probably should have just said "no consensus" though - since that is different than closing as a pure keep (now more than ever, see the recent changes to Wikipedia:Speedy keep). --W.marsh 03:46, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Point of information, it was a Keep No Consensus not a pure keep. Both the close in AfD and the notice on the article talk say Keep No Consensus... ++Lar: t/c 03:53, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure I don't see anything particularly wrong with it. The article is bare, but this aired on ABC and Lost has lots of viewers. That lends enough notability that it can be mentioned somewhere imo, and AFD is not the best place to decide merging. Kotepho 04:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • comment You're commenting on content, not on process — see above: "Remember that Deletion Review is not an opportunity to (re-)express your opinion on the content in question. It is an opportunity to correct errors in process (in the absence of significant new information), and thus the (action) specified should be the editor's feeling of the correct interpretation of the debate." — Mike • 04:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  I did both and there is plenty of commenting on content to go around on DRV. Kotepho 04:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Then I'd ask whatever admin who will review these items and make a decision to ignore your response, given that you're explicitly and self-admittedly not going by WP:DRV policy. — Mike • 04:28, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment: This has also been listed on today's AfD page (see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Lost: The Journey (second nomination)). As far as I see, there has been no consensus to relist, so I've asked for it to be speedily closed pending the results of this DRV. BryanG^(talk) 04:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete - with all due respect to the closing admin, I reread ArgentiumOutlaw's point on AFD and I do not see what is convincing about it. He points out that the writer did a good job and that mediators are debating what to do with individual episode articles. Well, as to the first point, a "good job" is not a bar to deletion and as to the second point, unless I'm missing something, this is not an episode. For the benefit of those above debating my "merge and delete" vote (opinion, whatever), I didn't say "merge and delete". Please reread my comment. I said "Merge anything useful ... otherwise delete". In other words, "merge OR delete", not "merge AND delete". BigDT 04:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. I, too, fail to see what is so overwhelming about the sole keep vote, and part of the admin's comment -- I'd keep a clip show before a random episode, if I were commenting -- means that a peculiar personal preference was used as part of the reasoning. --Calton | Talk 05:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, solid explanation from closing admin plus the fact that articles of this nature (major television episodes) are generally kept or merged. Christopher Parham (talk) 05:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist or delete. Only one keep vote, and its reasoning is extremely weak ("this is a well-written article" does not make the topic noteworthy, and "we're still discussing it" does not make it noteworthy either!); yes, admins are expected to use their judgment, not a raw votecount, to determine consensus, but this was a dubious closure.
• I'd have preferred if Lar had voted, rather than closing the discussion, since he clearly had a distinct opinion in his own right which, even if valid, didn't correspond to that of any of the users involved. Too often admins will close Deletion discussions in accordance with however they would have voted, rather than in accordance with the discussion itself. If your interpretation of what should be done with the article is unusual enough that people will be surprised by how you close the discussion, you'd probably be better off joining the discussion, so people can read and respond to your reasoning first, rather than just cutting it off with your opinion as the "last word". -Silence 05:55, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment There were two points I was making when I voted to Keep. The second point I made was that the article shouldnt have been up for deletion, if you see Requests for mediation, you'll see that there is a mediation committee voting to determine whether or not "Lost episodes each deserve an individual article". If they decide on keeping all episodes in one big article, then the committee will override any AFD decisions made on that one article. Same with the opposite case (ie if they decide every episode deserves a seperate article). Their decision may actually make any decision we reach here useless. Ignoring that, the first reason I gave for keeping, was that I thought the information there was thorough, accurate, and useful. As for the final outcome of keep on the AFD, I personally think we should put aside our "common sense" and go with the majority vote, 'but' through all of my experiences with AFDs and the like, I've realized that in wikipedia votes don't really matter, discussion and consensus determines the victor. I wouldn't dare say that my argument is more sensible than the opposing side because they made an equally legitimate point. So it's really a judgment call on which side brought up the more solid argument. ArgentiumOutlaw 06:06, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • In the absence of a mediation ruling, you can still preserve the solo article in your user space. In either outcome, you would need to have the information at hand. However, no one part of the deliberative process can overturn another, as they should have different targets. The mediation is about whether in the future/final form, there should be a single or breakout presentation and shouldn't be concerned with "should this particular article be deleted." AfD shouldn't be saying anything much about whether the future should look like X or Y, but rather judging a single article in terms of the deletion policy. I.e. during a mediation, pretty much everything should have gone into a sort of escrow space. Geogre 12:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Delete. Closing comments an absolutely travesty. "We don't nose count" so I'm siding with a minority of one". Ridiculous. -- GWO
• Overturn and Delete - Should have taken part in the discussion rather than just closed with his own saintly admin view. - Hahnchen 09:35, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. Everyone knows I don't nose-count either, but there was a clear consensus for deletion. It is not the case that the 'merge and delete' and 'transwiki' opinions could count as 'keep'. "Transwiki" means "This shouldn't be on Wikipedia" and "Merge and delete" means "Some of this might belong in the main article but not here", and both amount to "This Wikipedia article should not exist". The sole keep argument wasn't remotely close to being powerful enough to overturn the near-unanimous consensus. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 09:38, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete as supported by all credible arguments to policy & guidelines in the AfD; transwiki to Lostpedia if GFDL compatibility allows and if they want it. Just zis Guy you know? 12:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Delete Reliance on single keep argument unconvincing Bwithh 12:13, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Delete I voted to transwiki in the original AfD thinking that it was possible to transwiki to Lostpedia. Apparantly it is not, so you can count my vote as a delete in the original AfD. —Mets501 (talk) 12:16, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn: Lar was acting within his scope, but my feeling is that the article was weak enough or damaged enough that, at the very least, the article could not exist in that form and at that location and pass peer review in terms of the deletion policy. Sometimes we have to say, "Wikipedians are wrong, but we'll do the delete and work on getting the information presented in a better or more logical way." This would be one of those cases: people voting on AfD could be entirely wrong, but, in the absence of something really crazy, their wrong position should probably prevail. Geogre 12:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Clarification: my vote was the overturn and delete after the article is copied into user space pending the outcome of the mediation. I.e. delete, because AfD was clear, but I recommend that the authors and involved parties hold the material. We had a not dissimilar situation with articles on every cricket match in a year. Geogre 16:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete. The closure statement makes clear that, rather than acting within discretion on the merits of the debate, the admin was effectively imposing his own views on it instead. Should have participated in it, in that case. Furthermore, the arguments to delete are easily as compelling as the argument given to keep, and though we don't nose count, we do pay attention to the reasons why a number of people may have reached the same conclusion. I should also say that I don't think a wriggle of "no consensus" applies here. There's an obvious enough consensus among the participants, it's just that the admin didn't like it too much. If Lar wanted to spin the debate his way, he should probably simply have declared a straight "keep". I just discovered from User talk:Lar that Lar discussed this with others in IRC. That's fine, but one should remember that being trendy and brutal and treating AfD as a stupid bunch of idiots is extremely fashionable there, and that decisions made based on who goes "yay" to earn a laugh on IRC are generally decisions made poorly and in haste. -Splash - tk 12:54, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete, as per Mike and others above. It seems that a consensus in favor of deletion was ingnored. PJM 13:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist on AfD, AfD isn't a straw count and no good reason was advanced for deletion. IMO, closing admin probably did the right thing. Still, retention/deletion could be argued either way... recommend a fresh AfD.--Isotope23 15:31, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and delete; I agree with Lar that 1 suggestion can override seven other ones. However, I do not find this particular one convincing at all. - Liberatore(T) 15:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Notice: The article has now substantially been re-written to address the issues it previously had, excising the Original Research, and adding verifiable, sourced content. It is no longer the same article that was AfDed.--Leflyman^Talk 17:29, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Second War (Harry Potter)

• Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Second War (Harry Potter)

User:CambridgeBayWeather deleted article Second War (Harry Potter) on the grounds of not going against consensus. I read the arguments and the most prominent one was that the imformation can be found on other characters' biographic articles. While that is true, a through article on the history of the First and Second War of the Potter series is appropriate, if not essential, since the overlying plot of the series deals with Voldemort against the rest of the Wizarding world. In books five and six in particular, where the Second War begins and continues, two battles occur that will have continued ramifications to the last book to be released next year. A record of this entire episode I think would be appropriate to cite all further development to come and expand once the series is complete. User:Throw

• Having read all the Potter books multiple times, I recall no reference to a "second war". Perhaps you could cite the page numbers where it is referred to as such? Just zis Guy you know? 12:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Last chapter of OOTP is titled "The Second War Begins". Regards, MartinRe 12:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Oh, wow, so we have a whole article based essentially on a throwaway line? None of the characters refer to the "war", "first war" or "second war" do they? Just zis Guy you know? 12:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. Nothing out of process here. It was deleted through AfD on the 9th, then reposted and deleted on the 13th. To see what the 1st War and 2nd War articles look like, see User:Fbv65edel/Keep!. Metros232 12:31, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion. (after edit conflict) Looks like a valid AfD with reasonable arguments and very strong consensus. CambridgeBayWeather deleted it as recreation of a deleted article. -- SCZenz 12:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion valid afd, hence valid g4 Regards, MartinRe 12:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion, per above. PJM
• Endorse deletion, absolutely lawful deletion. MaxSem 15:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion Valid afd. OhNoitsJamie^Talk 18:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion per all. Disclosure: I am the AfD nominator. Note to Throw: this stuff will all be moved to Wikibooks by User:Fbv65edel. Work on it there instead. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 20:02, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. User:Throw copied and pasted everything on User:Fbv65edel/Keep! and pasted it to his/her own user page. Is that okay or not under the GFDL? It doesn't preserve the history and contributions since he did it in one fell swoop. The same goes for Fbv65edel's subpage which seems to be just copied and pasted too. Metros232 03:03, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

That violates GFDL. I've left a note on User talk:Fbv65edel that if they want the content for private use in preparing other content I or another admin will fish it out for them; meanwhile I'm afraid I call that a copyvio. Just zis Guy you know? 15:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

13 June 2006

User:Dtm142/User no evil boxes and Template:User Gangster

These were both deleted out of process by Drini. They were taken to tfd, but had a keep consensus and were closed. He claims to have deleted it because he followed the official policy, but it doesn't meet the Deletion policy. See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 June 4 and Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 June 5. No evil boxes was also closed because of defective listing. See this edit. They do not meet the criteria for speedy deletion, and the debates both resulted in a keep. Dtm142 22:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

as my comments were requested. I did quote policy and followed it. -- Drini 19:59, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Further explanation. There are some policies that are more fundamental than others (recall the five pillars) ? I followed them and thus I stand that I didn't act out of policy. If the lower policies are in contradiction with the fundamental ones, the fundamental ones take precedence.-- Drini 20:05, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

To which fundamental policy do you refer? Be specific, please; I'm not a mind reader, and could not locate where you quoted policy in the deletion for the second (the deletion log just says "tfd"). Jay Maynard 22:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 June 4. He quoted the policies there. Reguardless, it was out of process. Dtm142 22:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

We're trying to end this userbox war with a community compromise, not have you look for reasons to delete stuff. If it doesn't meet the speedy deletion criteria or deletion policy, it doesn't get deleted. Dtm142 22:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete on the first and put the 2nd one up for user space adoption by someone who was linking to it. Here we go again. Guess I was a fool to hope that WP:GUS would calm the deletionists down. --StuffOfInterest 22:26, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and MfD the first because it had two parallel reviews going on on separate MfD dates. The closing admin for the June 5 version (Xoloz) attempted to close both as an unsalvagable mess, but somehow that closure became disassociated with the June 4 review. The June 5 closure contained an explicit note that keep was the likely result of a clean nomination and review. Having two simultateous reviews with opposite conclusions is reason enough to send it back for a single combined review, having two closures with opposite conclusions for a single review is also enough to send it back, and we have both here.. Overturn, undelete, and leave alone for the second, because it has survived two separate TfD reviews in the past month. (See Wikipedia:Templates for deletion/Log/2006 May 24 for the first TfD discussion, which was referenced in the second.) GRBerry 22:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Endorse for the second, when I tried to multi-task I got it wrong. The closers rationale isn't enough reason to prevent WP:GUS, but the argument by Nhprman was a better argument for deletion than any of the keep arguments (as the prior TfD closed with no consensus rather than a clear keep consensus). GRBerry 23:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete. Weren't we just here? Why are admins trying to torpedo the German userbox solution?? Jay Maynard 22:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • ...and, yes, I'll support move User Gangster to userspace, per WP:GUS. Jay Maynard 00:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete both, move User Gangster to userspace per WP:GUS. We try to navigate out of the userbox mess and to find a compromise (following Jimbo's suggestion) when suddendly some admins start torpedoing the entire effort. CharonX/talk 23:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete follow the German solution (supported by Jimbo as compromise). No reason for the deletion as they don't meet T1. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 00:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• undelete both of these please find a better compramise Yuckfoo 01:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete both and move the second to user space, per WP:GUS —Mira 02:25, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• The former was already in userspace. Dtm142 02:29, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Yes, I know. I said move the second one to user space. —Mira 02:46, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep deleted No evil. T1/G4 (Tony Sidaway). Kotepho 02:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  G4 does not apply for recreating a deleted userbox in userspace. T1 does not apply in userspace. Dtm142 03:18, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  1) Yes, it does. Read the rfar. 2) Yes, it does. This is a logical extention of the rfar. (If something is inappropriate enough that if it was deleted in Template: it should not be recreated in User:, anything that would meet said criteria would still be inappropriate in User: even had it not been deleted in Template: previously.) Saying "no it doesn't" is not going to convince anyone and it does not make it true. Kotepho 03:33, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete and deal with per WP:GUS. Kotepho, I wouldn't argue that these boxes can't be speedied - they certainly can - but I would argue that they shouldn't be, if the goal is to end the userbox controversy with a minimum of collateral damage. -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:37, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  Changing my vote to relist on MfD for the first and endorse deletion for the second. I should have looked more carefully at first; what a crap box. Thanks Kimchi.sg, for caling attention to that. I'd vote to delete either on MfD or TfD, but only the first one deserves its week there. Refraining from speedying all but the most egregious boxes would be a great good-faith gesture on the part of userbox deletionists. The gangster box though, really has no redeeming value. -GTBacchus^(talk) 07:01, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Let me just say ... oh thank god I don't care about this shit anymore. It's sooooo much more relaxing. Ohh, you all should try it, I'm in heaven over here. --Cyde↔Weys 03:50, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and Undelete both, and Userfy the second one per WP:GUS. jgp 04:12, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first, WP:GUS Relist (TfD) the second one, and Remove Drini's admin rights for a week or two while we implement WP:GUS. _{No offense meant, Drini.} —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 07:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

No problem I'm used to people calling for admins desysopping for doing The Right Thing (TM) and following policy.

• Question. Does T1 apply in userspace or not? I'm seeing conflicting opinions on that issue. Anyone care to back theirs up with a link? Either way, T1 doesn't apply to the first one at all. —Disavian (^talk/_contribs) 07:00, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  There are different 'interpretations'. T1 became policy without sitting through the normal proposal and consensus procedures because it was endorsed by Jimbo. Jimbo has repeatedly said that the 'problem' is that things in the template namespace might be considered to be 'supported' by Wikimedia, and thus userboxes stating a disputed viewpoint should be moved to user space. Since 'T1' became policy because Jimbo said it should I don't see how it can be 're-interpreted' to mean something directly contradictory to Jimbo's position and still retain it's validity as a policy. The alternate view is apparently that you cannot transclude disputed viewpoints... you can have them directly on your user page, but not transcluded in from a sub-page in user space or anywhere else. This is based on an interpretation of the word 'template' in T1 being meant to cover 'anything transcluded' rather than 'things in the Template: namespace' as Jimbo has advocated. But then, Jimbo also said, "don't go on any sprees deleting", and we've seen how well some people listened to that. --CBDunkerson 16:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete. MaxSem 06:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist the first on MfD and keep deleted and prohibit userspace creation of Template:Gangster. "This user is a gangster" is a statement which has strong intimidating overtones (unlike "This user is a homosexual" or even "This user hates the EFF") and I would protest even if one were to just write it on his user page in plain form. Template:Gangster goes beyond the acceptable bounds of good taste and should not be retained even in user space. Kimchi.sg 06:47, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  Which policy, aside from T1 or G4, does the second violate? If there's something besides those two, then I'll support deleting it. Jay Maynard 12:11, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete per above.  Grue  06:57, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy undelete first, germanize gangster and be done with it. Misza13 ^{T C} 08:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first. Keep the second deleted - the second one was in template space and was fair game for deletion. If someone wants to userfy it they should feel free to do so. There are admins who will assist. Metamagician3000 11:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first per WP:GUS, Endorse deletion the 2nd. Gangster template is simply unacceptable. --WinHunter ^(talk) 11:55, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete the first and Userify the second per WP:DEUTSCH. — CJewell (talk to me) 14:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - Deletions were out of process and contradictory to apparent consensus at TfD/MfD. Seemingly no applicable policy for deletion. --CBDunkerson 16:53, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and userfy if necessary. Nobody who has been paying attention here would have expected these speedies to go unchallenged - and thus they were improper speedy deletions. Please remember --Speedy Deletion is not a Toy 22:39, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

for the record, it wasn't a speedy deletion (if you look at that definition) it was just a normal deletion, where I applied fundamental policies to close a TFD. Can people stop callign this a speedy? Nowadays people just like to say it without stopping to consider that. For it to have been a speedy, I would have to delete on sight as I saw it withouth doing the whole TFD thing. 00:37, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

It was an out of process deletion. They were already closed with a keep consensus and a defective listing before you closed them again and deleted them. Fundamental policies can be referenced during a tfd, but to determine the outcome, you look at what the community says and the deletion policies. I don't care if you delete it if it goes through an mfd with a delete consensus. Dtm142 01:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Any deletion which does not come as the result of an unchallenged 'prod' or consensus in a delete discussion is, by default, a 'speedy' delete... taken solely on the perogative of the admin performing the deletion without implied (per 'prod') or direct (per '*fD') consensus. As to your citation of the pillars - your action violates pillar four for certain (acting directly contrary to consensus is not 'cooperative') and is as much against pillar one (in that starting pointless fights over window dressing disrupts building the encyclopedia) as for it (in that the boxes in question did not build the encyclopedia). --CBD 10:41, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete 1st & Userify 2nd as mentioned a few times. --Scandalous 02:57, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and Userfy as per what Jimbo says is reasonable about the German solution. The idea that Drini could close so many TfD's with a generic closing message about the five pillars when really they were not for one, all relevant, and two, all followed by the action. Ansell 11:02, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

IRCDig

This article was deleted due to notability claims that were false. IRCDig is just as notable, if not more notable than most torrent search engine articles wikipedia decides to keep. The deletion discussion was split amongst keep and delete votes. The article followed all criteria for a valid article and then some. This article was incorrectly afd'd and should be re-instated. The supporters of deletion argued that the author was the only one that had contributed to the article but what they failed to realize was that the article was only like a week old. LOL... I discovered it when it was in it's afd discussion and contributed a keep vote and would have contributed to the article if I would have had time to see it. KernelPanic 17:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• AfD here. Whether the website is truly notable or not, this is a textbook proper close. Endorse closure unless notability can be accurately verified. --badlydrawnjeff talk 17:46, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • And what is the official wikipedia process for verifying notability? You say it was a text book closure whether the site is notable or not then you say you endorse the closure until the notability can be accurately verified? Which one is it? If wikipedia is going to allow it's admins to delete articles due to notability then there needs to be a clear and concise process for verifying notability. Until this happens, it is completely open to personal interpretation, which is ALWAYS going to be a mistake due to personal biases. KernelPanic 19:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Not "until," "unless." I'll gladly petition to overturn the closure if you can provide some sort of evidence that this is a notable thing. The "admins" didn't delete this, as much as a consensus by a not-insignificant number of fellow editors felt deletion was the correct path, and no claim was made by you or the other editor stating keep to make any sort of notability evident. I'm one of the most inclusive editors on here, and I'm not even convinced that this program is worth an article at this stage. Seriously, prove me wrong and I change my view. --badlydrawnjeff talk 19:27, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. Show us how it meets the standards of WP:WEB "the official wikipedia process for verifying notability" as you requested. This means independent news coverage and/or awards for the site. Lots of Google hits does not make something notable. My username gets 13,300 hits...am I notable? Metros232 19:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • In the same respect, using Alexa as a source of showing something as being not notable is not an accurate method either, which is what the afd argument was based on. There are numerous articles about ircdig and numerous other discussions on independant news groups, message boards, etc. You can use the very same google search you condemned to find these artcles. I agree that the amount of information that google has indexed on a particular thing does not make it notable, but I would say that over 3000 uniques a day from over 115 different countries does. Was this article really clutterinh up wikipedia so much, or offending other editors so much that it just had to be removed? wikipedia has become a joke. Now I know why so many people talk trash about it. It is full of a bunch of immature kids who like to try and use their so called "power" to dictate what articles say and what articles even exist. Keep it deleted if it makes you that happy. It is not even worth the argument anymore. The owner of ircdig told me that he only received like 2 or 3 hits a day from the article anyway. Maybe wikipedia is not that notable in the end. Maybe you should delete your entire site according to your own regulations. The only press I see about wikipedia is negative press (Criticism of Wikipedia). Does that make it notable? KernelPanic 19:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Lately all the press that George W. Bush gets is negative, is he still notable? :) And to think, I'm a Republican and yet I make that kinda statement. None of the Google hits I see are news articles. This is the closest [13]. There's also one that's a press release from IRCDig. The first one is not a reliable source and press releases don't count for notability.

The owner of ircdig told me that he only received like 2 or 3 hits a day from the article anyway. Maybe wikipedia is not that notable in the end.

Or could it be that no one's looking for the article because it's not notable? The amount of hits he gets on his site from our article matters so little to our consideration of whether or not to keep an article since we're not a source of advertisement for websites. Metros232 19:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. Relisting to generate more discussion would have been a viable alternative, but the two keep commentators both are new enough contributors and had weak enough points that ignoring their presence is a reasonable decision on the part of the closing admin. Nothing in the AfD or the discussion above asserts that the article met WP:WEB, the topic specific notability guideline. The bit about "only received like 2 or 3 hits a day from the article" indicates that the article was viewed as an advertisement. Advertisements are a direct violation of Wikipedia is not a soapbox, a section of one of the basic policies. As to the other torrent sites, if they are truly not worthy of being kept, their articles will go to eventually. No hurry, but consistency is not required, and taking our time has benefits. GRBerry 20:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse Closure Properly closed, did not assert notability. -M^ask 20:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. No evidence of notability, and the fact of an article not being advertising is not sufficient grounds to keep it when there is clearly not enough reliable external coverage to ensure neutrality. Just zis Guy you know? 20:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. Nothing was previously said that made it convincing that the site has any notabilility at all, and nothing has yet been added. The AfD's closure was within normal procedure. -- Consumed Crustacean | Talk | 00:27, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse close, as there is no significant new information to overturn previous consensus at the AFD. Titoxd^(?!?) 00:30, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

Mending Wall

This discussion was finished rather buptly mid-debate. The problem is that many are misunderstanding the copyright law, confused by a badly worded WP policy. There is a differnece between the copyright on an imprint and the copyright on he content. This poem (which is substantially quoted from) remains within copyright until 70 years after teh death of teh author - it is only a particular imprint of it that can go out of copyright before that. The poem's inculsion on Wikisource and the large quote on WP break copyright. If the WP policy is wrong/badly worded it needs to be changed. WP and WS are currently breaking copyright - and I suspect on several other copyright pieces too. Robertsteadman 16:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I did close the debate a few hours early on three grounds: 1.) There was a consensus to keep, unlikely to change; 2.) the poem is extraordinarily well-known in the US, and is regularly taught in high-school English classes across the country (how do I know? Why, I come from a loooong line of English teachers from all across the country, really) 3.) As I explained to Mr. Steadman at his talk, his understanding of copyright law is incorrect (for which, see his talk page.)

If I wanted to, I could simply say that I ignored opinions known to be in error, and found the debate unanimous. Really, though, even taking Steadman's criticisms at their face-value, there was a consensus to keep -- the discussion to remove the poem's text is editorial, as it is already transwikied. Xoloz 16:18, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I am afraid that your assertion about copyright is incorrect. Copyright on artistic works, in Europe and the US, last for 70 years after teh death oif the authjor and the date of publication is irrelvant. To have such a substantial quote from the poem, at best, stretchs the law and, in my opinion, is a breach of copyright. Certainly the wikisource full use is illegal. I'd love to see a citation for the "extremely well known"-nbess of the poem. One phrase may be well known - in which case the article should be about the phrase not the poem. The only reason the debate wasn't going to change is becaiuse (a) it wasn't given the chance to and (b) false informnation about the notability of the poem and the copyright situaton swayed people. A very sad state of affairs when WP admins are allowing WP to break the law. Robertsteadman 17:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Mr Steadman, you correctly state US law as it applies today to items published today. Historically, prior to a series of treaties throughout the 1980's, the US law did not give a whit for the author's lifetime. All of this is recounted in full detail at the US Copyright Law article. The newer laws now in force do not apply to Mending Wall, because by the time of their active date, its copyright had already lapsed under the old law. It is unfortunate that you refuse to relent in falsing suggesting Wikipedia is a violating the law. Discerning the copyright of works published in the US between 1923 and 1978 is a confusing process, by reason of the changing law, and occupies an entire course in modern American law school curriculum. Prior to 1923, all published works in the US, by necessity of the operation of law in effect at the time, had their copyrights lapse prior to the enactment of current law. Since my word, and the sources at the WP article, do not convince you, I suggest you take this matter up with Foundation lawyer User:Brad Patrick. He will tell you what I have, in much better detail than I can (since intellectual property is not my area of daily practice): you are incorrect, and WP is within the law. I respect your right to disagree, however wrong you are; but please refrain from suggesting that Wikipedia is breaking the law, for its counsel is very bright, and it is well within the law. Xoloz 18:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

As for notability, the mere fact it is a Robert Frost poem justifies a stub's existence, but I can have references for you shortly.

• Endorse closure. Take to copyright problems if you really think it's a problem, I accept the evidence above that it is not. I am compelled to wonder once again if User:Robertsteadman and User:Robsteadman are related. Just zis Guy you know? 20:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure. If it was in fact published in 1914, there is no problem. See, among other sources, UPenn's guide here. By the way, was I the only one who thought of this poem when senator Jeff Sessions said, with regard to plans to build five hundred or so miles of Berlin-Wall-like fencing,"Good fences make good neighbors, fences don't make bad neighbors?" Ignoring, of course, the point that there's a difference between a co-operative fence maintained jointly by two neighbors and a unilateral fence... Unless I'm missing something, Mexico isn't offering to pay for half of this border fence. But I digress. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. Even if User:Robertsteadman were correct in saying that the poem was still subject to copyright, we could just revert the article to a non-infringing version. And if the poem is in the public domain, we don't have a problem at all. --Metropolitan90 01:09, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment The ever-amazing BD2412, who does IP for a living, quickly cited this source, a current US government circular, which plainly lays that issue to rest. Praise BD! Xoloz 06:17, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse: AfD and DRV are not the proper venues for changing Wikipedia's general understanding of copyright. The poem is, of course, very well known and is, in fact, one of those poems that people who don't know poetry will have read (because they were forced to). Now, don't ask me how I loathe Robert Frost, but don't ask me to want the article deleted because one person thinks the whole project's vision of copyright should yield to his own. Geogre 12:13, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. If we're all wrong about the copyright status of this poem, and Project Gutenberg is too, I think the only recourse Mr. Steadman has is to Foundation legal counsel, as Xoloz suggests. Alleged non-notability is not a good reason to bring this article here; there were arguments made on both sides at the AfD, and there was no consensus to delete. I am very much hoping this is the last I see of this issue. -- SCZenz 12:38, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse - how on earth did anyone even consider deleting an article about what is by common knowledge one of the most famous modern poems in the English language? Metamagician3000 04:42, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Saryn Hooks

Article was AfD'd today, and deleted speedily per A7 after only three votes. Article certainly asserts notability, and frankly, I would have voted Keep.

Content was, more or less, "Saryn Hooks, of Taylorsville,North Carolina, placed third in the Scripps Howard National Spelling Bee. She was reinstated after the judges realized they had the incorrect spelling of hechsher. She is fourteen years old and hopes to become a doctor."

Recommend undeletion and relisting at AfD. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 15:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Abstain for the moment. Coming third in a spelling bee is certainly not an impressive claim of notability. The judges got her word wrong? Woop de do, I don't think that'll be up there with the Mano de Dios in the Top 100 Shocking Sporting Moments on Channel 4. However, I'm not quite prepared to say that this should be snowballed, hence the abstention. It wouldn't have killed anyone to let this run its course. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 15:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. Couldn't this detail simply be merged into the article for the Scripps Howard National Spelling Bee as a bit of interesting trivia? --StuffOfInterest 15:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Because it's not very interesting? If it had affected the outcome of the game it would be important, but the girl went out anyway. Looking at the article, I don't see anywhere obvious to insert a mention, and it seems like a very inconsequential thing to start a new '==Trvia==' section with. But if you can do better than I, you don't have to wait for the article to be undeleted to edit the Scripps Howard National Spelling Bee article. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 15:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Technically, any subject could be merged into another article as a short blurb rather than a real article, but that doesn't really do us justice. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and complete AFD The reinstatement is also an assertion of notability. How often does a reinstatement occur? Without knowing this, which only an AFD discussion can address, we can't tell if there is notability. GRBerry 15:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Why go to lengths - participation and high placement themselves are assertions of notability! - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 15:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn, undelete, reopen AFD A claim of notability necessitates an AFD. --Rob 15:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist, certainly not an A7. --badlydrawnjeff talk 15:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment. It's not fair for me to vote since I deleted it, but I just wanted to say that this met speedy deletion criteria in my view. I am not opposed to letting the AFD run its course if that is the outcome of this review.--Kungfu Adam ^(talk) 15:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist per nom. BoojiBoy 18:08, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and relist per nominator. Silensor 19:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Reviewing the articles on some of the winners of this competition, they would be far better combined a single article (and this one with them). Unless and until they achieve some lasting notability, an article which says that X attended foo school, won a spelling bee one year, and since then has not been mentioned in any reliable sources, would be a clear and unambiguous delete for any adult. I can't believe we're even considering keeping an article on someone whose sole claim to fame is that they came third. Come on, people! The reliable sources contain maybe two facts: the competition and the school. Just zis Guy you know? 20:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • So, would you delete athletes who are "only" third-best in the country, as well? Or do you have separate standards for mental competitions versus physical ones? --Rob 19:15, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
    • If they are only the third best according to the results of a single competition, yes. Think about this logically for a moment: how much verifiable biographical data is there for these people outside of the single fact of their having taken part in a single competition? I have nothing against a brief note in the article on the competition, that makes good sense, but what you appear to be arguing for here is an article whiech will, most likely in perpetuity, say that this person came third ina competition once. You think that's enough to base a biography on? You think that establishes encyclopaedic notability? This is well below the level of attention given to losing candidates in elections, who by common consent do not get articles unless they are independently notable. I'd say the same applies: if these people have some independent and objective claim to notability per WP:BIO then by all means give them articles, but otherwise list them in a single article and if you think its likely anyone but their mother will search for them by name then add a redirect. Just zis Guy you know? 12:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I'm glad we agree on using logic and WP:BIO, which states "The person has been the primary subject of multiple non-trivial published works whose source is independent of the person". So, clearly she either meets that standard, or is at least close enough, to warrant a proper AFD discussion. I'm glad you do apply the same standard to athletes, but since you appear opposed to existing WP:BIO rules for athletes, you should really take that up on the talk page of WP:BIO. You're applying rules on biographies that aren't mentioned in WP:BIO. As for elections: we we include all members of the federal and state legislatures. That's thousands of people for some countries. That includes third-party back-benchers in legislatures/parliaments with a majority government. Look at music: you just have to have a charted hit. It doesn't have to be #1. So, generally we go well, well beyond "top 3" in most areas. --Rob 16:14, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted as per Just zis Guy above. Arguments that a third place contestant in a spelling bee deserves their own article are totally beyond me Bwithh 22:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Just want to make sure you two brits realize that the Scripps-Howard Spelling Bee is a nationally-covered event, televised live nationwide by ESPN, the premier sports channel in the United States. It gets front page treatment in the press every year, it's a big deal - not just a bee at a school. - CrazyRussian talk/contribs/email 23:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually, this Brit has been living in the US since 2001. Bwithh 01:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• • • Actually, it even went one step further this year and was broadcast in primetime on ABC. Metros232 23:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • it was also simulcast in hdtv on 2 different networks so erasing this makes no sense at all. Yuckfoo 01:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• undelete this please a mistake was made here so fix it Yuckfoo 01:23, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, per JZG & Bwithh. Despite popular opinion, I don't see how finishing 3rd in this event is notable. It didn't even strike me as a proper assertion of notability. PJM 02:48, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• This one is difficult. The result of any AfD debate should be really, really, really obvious: merge the article and create a redirect to the spelling bee. Yes, the young lady was in the news because of the scandal of the judges getting it wrong and a competitor correcting them (and thus reinstating the girl). Further, she was being followed around by cameras and is very photogenic. If this were AfD, I'd say "Merge and redirect": she hasn't been alive long enough to have a biography or done anything, yet. That said, this isn't AfD, so I suppose I have to put my faith in the demos and say...I hate doing this...overturn and finish the AfD. Geogre 12:16, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep Deleted per JzG. Eusebeus 15:34, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist. I don't think the subject is notable, and I think the article should be deleted, but it should be deleted through the proper AfD process. There is an assertion of notability, so a speedy is inappropriate. jgp (T|C) 15:40, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist While I would probably vote delete on the afd, technically it should be relisted since there is at least a debatable claim to notability. OhNoitsJamie^Talk 18:32, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse deletion per JzG. However, I'd support history undeletion if if the content of this article is merged into the article about the competition and then turned into a redirect. - Liberatore(T) 15:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
• Reopen AfD I'm not sure of the actual bio, but I have to question the speedy. Yanksox ^(talk) 16:20, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

12 June 2006

User:Winhunter/Userboxes/EFF and User:Winhunter/Userboxes/No-CCP

This user is opposed to online censorship.

This user opposes the Chinese Communist Party.

Both userboxes are in the userspace according to the German Userbox solution, but an admin deleted both of them, saying "T1 deletion as per CSD and Tony Sidaway arbcom case." in the deletion log. I do not believe speedy deletion would apply on userboxes in userspace in these two uesrboxes, especially when there are consensus on German Userbox Solution. --WinHunter^(talk) 02:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete and list at MfD - I think these userboxes must necessarily be deleted at MfD, but I think that, in this case, it's worth it to go back and list them there. Other opponents of userboxes, please consider my reasons. (I'm the same one who's argued passionately against not digging up the dead to rebury them.) We have a choice right now: we may start another userbox brouhaha, or not. Let's choose not to. Let's be smart about it this time, and do what Jimbo actually suggested. Once the boxes are in userspace, let's use reason and dialogue to explain why they're a bad idea. Let's do that by taking them to MfD for deletion instead of speedying them, and creating the conditions for much more congenial discussion, where explanation and development of reasons can actually go on in more cooperative spirit. Let's not ruffle feathers with speedy deletions, and then try to have that same conversation at DRV, where it's much more difficult on account of people being upset, and the constant drive to not talk about the content being deleted, but the validity of the deletion instead. This is a crappy place for the conversation to happen. We're not required to speedy polemical pages in user-space. We are free to apply the "if it walks like a template" criterion, or not. Please consider that we can do this encyclopedia a greater service by being a little more slow and deliberate about dealing with the userbox problem. -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and list at MfD - I dislike these 2 boxes but am convinced by GTBacchus' points. Kimchi.sg 03:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn, undelete, and send to MfD Case 1: EFF box. It is anything but obvious that this is inflammatory. It is anything but obvious that this is divisive. Heck, Wikipedia, by policy, is not censored. If there is anyplace that this should not be divisive, it is Wikipedia. This one looks like a clearly erroneous speedy deletion, and possibly should just be overturned without sending it to MfD, as I think a keep outcome is the appropriate MfD result. Case 2: Opposes CCP box. Better addressed on MfD than via a speedy deletion, as per GTBachus' argument above. The inflammatory case is debatable, given that the CCP already attempts to ban the citizens of mainland China from seeing Wikipedia, and that those who circumvent the firewall are unlikely to be the CCP's strongest supporters. GRBerry 03:35, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• I do not believe endless TFDs, MFDs, and DRVs are the correct way to resolve this issue. I think it's time to try the final step in dispute resolution. --Cyde↔Weys 03:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Which is...? If it's "take it to someone who can set binding policy", I agree with you. Jay Maynard 12:03, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• ArbCom is the final step of dispute resolution. --Cyde↔Weys 19:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep deleted These fall under T1. T1 applies to userspace templates still. Would it be better to delete these through TFD or MFD? I believe so, but they have shown that they do not produce correct results w.r.t. to policy. Process is only important if it works. Kotepho 03:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Wikipedia is not democracy. Why are MfDs closed against policy just because the numbers say so? -GTBacchus^(talk) 03:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I don't know. Why are Gay Nigger Association of America and The Game (game) still around? Their sources are certainly scant.

  I do want to echo your request that userboxes in User: should be taken to *FD instead of speedied in most cases, but the debates need to be closed on their merits instead of numbers. That is not to say that all templates in user space should be taken to *FD--as many are fine in user space--but there are still templates that are so odious that they must be deleted from user space also. I believe that "user against $POLITICAL_PARTY" falls under such a condition, even if I happen to agree with that position. The EFF box is a bit different--enough that it probably should be discussed seperately. "This user supports the EFF" is something that I believe is inappropriate, but not so much that it needs to be deleted immediately. In its current form I believe that T1 is applicable. Kotepho 04:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  It is in userspace, what do you think about this? Jimbo on Userboxes --WinHunter ^(talk) 04:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  The problem with userboxes is that people really really ought not to be using their user pages to advocate for or against green energy or anyone else. - Jimbo Wales I like it a lot. I would add this bit though. I am not doing anything about it just yet, but I am willing to concede that my nonviolent social request that people knock it off and think about what it means to be a Wikipedian has not gotten very far.[14] On "it is in userspace": I have no idea what you are replying to, as no one disputes that. Kotepho 05:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I am reasonably certain that Winhunter was referring to this quote: [15] (too long to copy). It is, after all, the one he linked to. —Mira 08:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  This one [16] too, actually. —Mira 08:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  There would still be restrictions on the range of possible userboxes... from the first diff, and I already quoted from the second diff? The middle ground is to let people do as they will in the user space, and merely use reason and argument to teach people over time why one ought not use Wikipedia userpages for political or other campaigns.... while at the same time saying, no, really, the template namespace is not for that, that we do not endorse this behavior. This is the solution that the Germans have put into effect with great results. Personally, I'm not a big fan of people using their user pages (or editing the encyclopedia) to advocate their points of view (and Jimbo agrees). How are these boxes anything other than that? Notice how Jimbo doesn't say "Oh I think that is fine", he says "this might work for now, but try and talk some sense into them". Talking hasn't worked; and most of these comment are from months ago. On the issue of substed versus transcluded in userspace, it is not a distinction without a difference. Kotepho 09:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I haven't seen talking given much of a chance to work. I've seen people try to bypass talking, by just deleting a bunch of boxes repeatedly, and creating conditions for people to feel they're being attacked. -GTBacchus^(talk) 16:57, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete and relist at MFD agree with GTBacchus. The speedy deletion of userboxes has been far more divisive than any userbox could ever be. —Mira 05:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Overturn and undelete Nothing wrong with either these userboxes or WP:GUS. jgp 07:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete User space is sacred territory!  Grue  07:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep both deleted. First one is merely unnecessary, second is a childish attempt to piss off the editors you're supposed to be writing an encyclopaedia with. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Question. How is the second one going to piss anyone off? Wikipedia is banned where anyone would actually support the Chinese communist party, because of the chinese communist party. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 17:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Userspace is not sacred, and must follow policy like anywhere else. --Improv 08:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - Userspace is absolutely fine for userboxes. I don't use them, but I had asked Tony Sidaway about them at User_talk:Tony_Sidaway#Random_Userbox_question. He seemed to think they were OK in the userspace, and I disagree that a T1 CSD criterion can apply to the userspace. Because if we can apply other CSD criterion to the user space, then we should delete a crapload of nn-bios and nonsense right now. - Hahnchen 08:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • If it looks like a duck, and transcludes like a duck, and quacks "Hey you! Your government and your political opinions are evil! By the way, would you like to write an encyclopaedia with me?" like a duck, it's probably a duck and therefore subject to criterion for speedy roasting T1. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Why are these boxes being treated differently to anything else on the user page? Are we no longer allowed to write down out beliefs on our userpage? If I write on my userpage "Evolution is fact", it's OK? But if I put it into a box, it's crossing some kind of line? If so, I seriously suggest we start at User:SPUI and work on from there. - Hahnchen 09:13, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I have no problems with people wrting down their beliefs on their userpage within reason, I do have a problem with encouraging others to write down the same beliefs by handing out bumper stickers. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 11:41, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  If you know of any recreated deleted articles being used in userspace as they would be in article space (i.e. inside article categories and/or linked from article space) please remove such links/cats, tag it g4, or bring it to mfd. Kotepho 09:29, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Naturally, categorisation or crosslinking from the mainspace to the userspace should not be allowed. I myself have made this error when working on new articles in my userspace. However, the relevance to this conversation seems very little. Many times I have seen 'Userfy' used in deletion discussions, so recreations in the userspace aren't entirely g4 material. - Hahnchen 09:33, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Of course it does not apply to all templates, but ones that are divisive and inflammatory are fair game even in user space. Examples of such happening would be User Anti-UN and User Anti-ACLU. How is No-CCP significantly different? Kotepho 10:24, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete. POV userboxes but in userspace, which is what the German solution calls for. We have generally granted wide latitude in that area, including clear biases. Sjakkalle (Check!) 09:17, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete. The whole idea of WP:TGS is to take forward Jimbo's endorsement of how userboxes are handled on the German Wikipedia. He has said that POV should be allowed in user space far beyond what is allowed in template space. Also, I'm strongly against extending T1 to user space. Show me the policy discussion covering that interpretation, please. --StuffOfInterest 10:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete. If I may quote Jimbo's suggestion regarding the failed UPP proposal: "The text of WP:UPP is filled with what one can and cannot say, specifically, All userbox templates that show a POV or are not directly related to wikipedia will be deleted after a period of time. Note that a user subpage that is transcluded without substitution by multiple users is considered a 'template'. This is like saying, "You may have pamphlets, but you may not mechanically print and distribute them. This is not an infringement of free speech". To put it kindly, this is counter-intuitive." CharonX/talk 11:00, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - The stated reason that a user-page comment to the effect of, 'I hate people with mauve skin' inside a rectangle has not been allowed while 'I hate people with mauve skin' outside a rectangle has been allowed was that the 'rectangle version' has traditionally been coming from 'Template space' and might therefor theoretically be taken to imply that Wikimedia encourages or tolerates the hating of people with mauve skin... while the 'not in a rectangle version' has traditionally been coming from 'User space' wherein it is more clearly the statement of the individual user(s). Ergo, if a disputed viewpoint resides entirely in user space it does not fall under the stated reason for removal of such from template space... whether it is enclosed in a rectangle or not. Does that make the hating of mauve people a good thing which we should encourage? Of course not, but to date we haven't taken the position that we can (or should) police the content of all userpages to remove any disputed viewpoints. If someone writes on their user page, 'I am gay and have been married to my partner for three years now' we do not remove it on the grounds that 'gay marriage is divisive' yet now some are saying that we should. If people really want to broaden this to a discussion of sanitizing the user space (not just template space) of all disputed beliefs then they need to make a case for that... but until then there are no grounds to do so for bits and pieces of user space - whether they are enclosed in rectangles or not. There have been decisions against the use of the template namespace for disputed viewpoints... not the use of rectangles. --CBDunkerson 11:19, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  No one is saying that you cannot use rectangles; they are saying you cannot use templates. The definition of a template is not "stuff in Template:". See also Wikipedia:Requests for arbitration/Tony Sidaway. Kotepho 11:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  See the quote from Jimbo that CharonX included above...he seems to disagree specifically with your argument. Jay Maynard 12:06, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  I disagree. You are apparently defining 'template' as 'anything which is transcluded'. That is not stated in the arbcom case you cite and is not consistent with Jimbo's statements about why T1 was created and what kinds of transclusion are acceptable:

  "Suppose we omit the bit about [disallowing] user subpages transcluded without substitution? If we do that, then a certain amount of userboxing can go on no problem, but outside the officially sanctioned spaces. This respects our long tradition of allowing wide latitude on userspace stuff, while at the same time keeping these userboxes out of officially sanctioned areas which would suggest to new users that this is an official thing that one ought to be doing. There would still be restrictions on the range of possible userboxes, of course, but this is not different from the restriction on all manner of things people might put on their userpages already."

  The T1 criteria was created to address Jimbo's concerns (and those of others) about templates (by which I mean 'things in the template namespace') possibly giving the impression that a view was supported by Wikimedia. Above Jimbo makes a clear distinction that transcluded pages from the template and other 'official' namespaces need to be kept free of divisive statements, but transcluded user pages should be treated like any other user page content - where we have long allowed much wider lattitude since they do not reflect on Wikimedia. --CBDunkerson 12:09, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  What is not clear about "...or a userfied copy of a deleted template that is used on pages other than those of its owner..." (Principle 2)? Is this not a userfied copy of a deleted template that is used on pages other than those of its owner? Deleted, check; userfied, check; used on pages other than those of it's owner, check.

  Also--amazingly enough--everything Jimbo says on a random talk page is not ex cathedra; there is a difference between Jimbo's opinion and Jimbo's decrees. Kotepho 12:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Lots of stuff Jimbo has said on random talk pages is being taken ex cathedra. If the statements that he's made that the anti-userbox faction likes count, so do the statements the anti-userbox faction doesn't like. Jay Maynard 12:47, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  Are you saying that users are responsible for transclusions by others of their subpages? --SPUI (T - C) 15:05, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  While I don't think you were being serious, it only took about a minute to make a subpage only transclude properly for me. If the template isn't horrible you could always subst the others or duplicate copies for everyone instead of deleting it. Kotepho 10:49, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  When we reach the point that the T1 CSD is re-written to directly contradict the person who is directly responsible for its existence there is a problem. T1 was implemented spontaneously, without any normal approval process, to fill a need specified by Jimbo. Re-interpreting T1 to directly contradict Jimbo's position on this issue would invalidate it's entire basis for existence. As to the ArbCom principle you cite (I was looking for a definition of 'template' consistent with yours)... it deals with attempts to circumvent deletion of unacceptable content by relocating it. It does not address the different standards between what is acceptable in the template namespace and what is acceptable in the user namespace. If something was deleted because it is unacceptable anywhere on Wikipedia then moving it to the user space is no improvement, but if something was deleted because it was unacceptable in the template namespace (the meaning of T1 actually espoused by the person responsible for its existence), but would be acceptable in the user space, then I don't see a problem with its recreation. Just as the 'non notable bio' CSD applies to 'article' space, but not to 'user' space so to with the T1 CSD in template vs user space. The entire basis of T1's existence, possible implication of Wikimedia support, simply does not apply to the user space. --CBDunkerson 17:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

  The arbitration case dealt with such templates as User Anti-UN, how is User No-CCP different? The case held that G4 did extend to such templates (in userspace) and by a little logical extention it is easy to see that T1 still applies to userspace. If someone creates Category:George Bush is a dick can we not speedy it? "But A6 has an A in front of it, it only applies to articles!" Nonsense. Divisive and inflammatory templates (in all namespaces) are fair game. Kotepho 02:58, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  So... by extension of the interpretation T1 means the opposite of what Jimbo says it means? Heh. :] If these boxes had been created in user space in the first place the 'recreation' ArbCom principle you cite would not apply to them, correct? So they couldn't be 'G4' in that case... and they couldn't be T1 because they aren't in the template namespace and thus don't 'imply Wikimedia endorsement'... and they don't violate general standards for user page content. Yet you argue that since they were created in Template space first, as was the accepted practice at the time, they can no longer exist in user space... even though they could have if they hadn't been (correctly) placed in template space originally before the change in standards. This makes sense? If someone creates completely new userboxes which express similar sentiments that 'recreation' principle does not apply to them, but we've got to do 'interpretation gymnastics' to come up with some technicality where these two can't because they got caught up in the transition from 'all userboxes go in 'Template:User <whatever>' to 'disputed views cannot be in template space'? Why? Wikipedia is not a battleground. We're supposed to be building an encyclopedia... not searching for a hyper-technicality to help extend a fight over trivialities. --CBDunkerson 11:04, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  I normally don't respond to strawmen, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and just restate my argument. T1 comes into being. Jimbo doesn't say "We should have this so we can get rid of these as they are seen as an official endorsement"--he doesn't say anything. Trying to apply whatever Jimbo has said in various places to the meaning of T1 is well, meaningless. There have been cases where user subpages used as templates have been deleted under T1, and these have held up by ArbCom. If something is deleted because it is inappropriate and recreated and then used in the same way as the deleted item, it may be considered G4. That is what the rfar said. By logical extension and "common sense" it is easy to see that "Bananas are bad in template space" and "Bananas recreated in user space are still bad, so we must delete them" leads to "Bananas in user space are deletable, even if it never was deleted in template space". If you have say Template:User Hates France and User:Bob/User Hates Germany, and User Hates France is deleted from template space and then from user space, it is easy to see that User:Bob/User Hates Germany should also be deleted--even though it never existed in template space. You claim that I am looking for technicalities and I guess "wikilawyering", but I would say you are. It is a simple question, that no one has even tried to answer, how is User No-CCP substainially different than User Anti-UN or various other user space templates that have been deleted (and kept deleted) before? The only response thus far has been "well, wikipedia is blocked in china, so the people that would be upset won't know!". That is so vacuous that it does not merit a reply. Oh, I can play the Jimbo sez game too "However, the issue with userboxes is that they are templates, and as such, they are categorized and easy to replicate and easy to use for campaigning and so on, and so they turn individual advocacy behavior, which is bad enough, into group campaigns." is all still true of userfied templates. Kotepho 23:42, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

  I think I see the problem. Your third sentence is incorrect. Jimbo did say that we needed to get these things out of template space / avoid the appearance of Wikimedia support for them. Indeed, he has done so repeatedly... for instance immediately after the point at which you cut off the quotation above. It continues, "The pages which list userboxes, in the template namespace, make it seem as though putting these things on userpages is a normal and accepted community behavior, when in fact it is not. There is a middle ground, I agree. The middle ground is to let people do as they will in the user space...". I believe you are also incorrect when you say that Jimbo's position is "meaningless" in relation to T1. T1 exists because of Jimbo. It is there for no other reason. It was created and kept strictly on his say so. Therefor you can't make it mean something different than he says or there just isn't any basis for its continued existence. It was never discussed and adopted through formal consensus. It was installed at Jimbo's discretion to get 'disputed/divisive statements' out of the template namespace. Using a policy which exists on Jimbo's say so to contradict Jimbo is meritless. Can't be done. You want to cleanse the user space of people saying things like, 'I am gay and have been married to my partner for 3 years now' or, for some inexplicable reason, just cases where they transclude such statements from a user sub-page, then you need to propose and get consensus on a policy to do so. T1 was created to protect Wikimedia from the appearance of supporting various potentially contentious positions/causes by removing such from the template namespace. Nothing more. We would prefer that users not put such issues on their user pages (as Jimbo goes on to say), but we do not prevent them from doing so. Even at the height of the explosion with (arguably) the most contentious issue, the 'pedophile userbox wheel war'... which directly spawned T1, users were allowed to keep statements indicating that they were pedophiles in user space (and continue to do so to this day). Just not in template space. You try to 'extend' an ArbCom principle about re-creations to make T1 apply to user space, but it just inherently doesn't. It is not transclusion (or rectanglization) which makes these divisive views deletable... it is their existence in the 'seemingly official' template namespace rather than as concepts endorsed solely by users in the user space. --CBD 11:12, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Jimbo has said that they should not be in Template:, yes. However, that is not what I said at all. He did not say "Here is T1. Divisive and inflammatory templates are bad because it looks like an official endorsement.". T1 exists because Jimbo has decreed that divisive and inflammatory things are bad, he did not qualify why. Jimbo has not endorsed the German solution as everyone seems to say. He has simply stated "here is what de. did". Thus, citing T1 cannot contradict Jimbo's wishes (or if it does, he has not expressly stated them). If Jimbo wants to say that T1 does not apply to userspace or that he supports moving userboxes to userspace in an official capacity I'm sure he can figure out how to tell us. Again I say "there is a difference between Jimbo's opinion and his decrees". It is funny how you keep harping on "T1 in userspace" though, as the debate about these particular templates is obviously in line with the definition of G4 previously used and therefore does not need to apply in this case anyways (at least for the EFF one, I cannot find a Template: version of No-CCP but that doesn't mean it didn't exist). Kotepho 15:51, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

  Jimbo reinstated T1 in "divisive and inflammatory" form into the CSD on 6 February. The community accepted this as they viewed it as his decree. However, on 20 February he said "There have been no decrees from me". He did not simply state "here is what de. did" [sic as regards use of quotation marks], he said "The middle ground is to let people do as they will in the user space, and merely use reason and argument to teach people over time why one ought not use Wikipedia userpages for political or other campaigns.... while at the same time saying, no, really, the template namespace is not for that, that we do not endorse this behavior. This is the solution that the Germans have put into effect with great results." [Emphasis added.] All of this can be verified by reading Wikipedia:Jimbo on Userboxes, except the reason for the community accepting it, which must be verified by reading the February history and archived talk page of WP:CSD.

  Finally, I suggest that the talk pages Wikipedia talk:German userbox solution or Wikipedia talk:T1 and T2 debates are the most approriate pages to continue discussion as to what the right general approach is.GRBerry 16:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

• Keep deleted. I swear, when you think you've found a solution to a problem, another problem crops up. --Lord Deskana ^{Dark Lord of the Sith} 11:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Out of curiosity, what solution are you referring to? Most other editors here are citing WP:GUS. --StuffOfInterest 15:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and do not list at xfD. The German userbox solution is a compromise designed to end the userbox wars. Speedy deleting userboxes in userspace shows contempt for that compromise, and spits in the face of those who worked hard to make it reality. If the same criteria apply to userboxes in userspace as apply to userboxes in template space, then there is no compromise at all, and the wars, and the exodus, will go on. Jay Maynard 11:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It is disappointing that we may lose a few good editors, but by and large people who would leave wikipedia over this are people who have the wrong idea about Wikipedia and see their userpage as another livejournal. --Improv 13:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Please trim that broad brush. You have no way of knowing that, and the accusation, while not as insulting as saying those who believe userboxes are valuable want to turn Wilipedia into MySpace, is nevertheless quite wide of the mark. The reason people would leave Wikipedia over this is not only the inability to say who one is, but also - and perhaps even more so - that speedy deletions in the face of an ongoing attempt to reach a genuine compromise say that those in power simply do not care what those not in power think. That attitude is far more corrosive than any userbox can be, and, from what I'm seeing, far more pervasive. Jay Maynard 13:51, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • You hit the nail on the head. When legitimate attempts at compromise are responded to with hard-line stonewalling, you know something is fundamentally wrong with Wikipedia's culture. jgp 13:56, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Comment The difficulty is that compromise is not possible (or even desirable) in every case. For example, vandals want unlimited vandaism, wikipedia wants none, so it would be pointless to compromise and allow some vandalism. The base issue in this is that some see these boxes as an example of what wikipedia is not, and as such not a valid case for compromise, as what wikipedia is, and is not, is fundamental, not only to its culture, but to wikipedia itself. MartinRe 17:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
          • Now you're just implying that userboxes are vandalism which is grossly off base and quite insulting. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 17:48, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
            • No, I am implying no such thing. I am simply pointing out that "compromise" is not always a magic word. If you have people that believe (rightly or wrongly) that the opposing view has no merit, then the middle ground will seem equally flawed. If one person thinks 2+2=4 and another says that 2+2=6, a suggested compromise to agree that 2+2=5 would also be rejected, but might be seen as stonewalling. And no, I am not saying any opinion is as right as "2+2=4", but am just pointing out possible reasons why what appears to be a compromise to one person, may appear not to be one to someone else. (and I have seen signs of this on all sides of this debate) Regards, MartinRe 18:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete, as it has always been standard to make and transclude user subpages. --SPUI (T - C) 14:49, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete no basis for deletion per the German Solution. Also they are most definitely not T1. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 17:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Userfy them to my userpage UBX directory (UBX), which is open to all (non-personal attack/reality-compatible) userboxes. If anyone deletes it there, I will undelete it. Simple. TGS will be implemented, by community consensus. Xoloz 18:59, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • By the way, I got this idea from User:Cyde Weys, no friend of userboxes, and he is helping me implement it, so I'd say it has some sort of "bipartisan support". Xoloz 19:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Umm, Xoloz, look closely. These were already in user space. Also, if you just undelete them you'll end up being accused of wheel warring. --StuffOfInterest 19:10, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I know exactly what I said SOI (although I take no offense at your point :) The difference between Winhunter and me is that I can undelete myself, without process hoops. Anyone who wheel-warred with me over my own userspace would go to ArbCom with me, and not be looked on too brightly. If I must wheel-war and lose adminship... oh well. If it ends the userbox war, it is worth it. I trust, however, that my fellow admins would respect my userspace, even if they delete from other "normal users" (sic). If they don't, we'll get this settled. Xoloz 19:22, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I hate to say this, but regardless of how it gets there I'm starting to think that ArbCom is the right place to go. I had hoped that when WP:GUS came around, backed by Jimbo's own words, things would finally settle. It appears that this isn't the case and higher level policy may be needed. --StuffOfInterest 19:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: I'd like to see fewer user boxes, and I don't care where they are stored. The German system doesn't answer the fundamental question: What is Wikipedia?

Some user boxes are clearly deleted under T1 when they are not inflammatory. The emotional attachment which people show to a particular userbox when it is deleted can indicate whether it is inflammatory, and some raise no hackles. I wouldn't personally delete marginal userboxes until a new policy gains consensus. And people wheel warring over this issue just demonstrates they are too involved to have a dispassionate opinion. What we need in the short term is a simple and non-time consuming way to determine which boxes should be kept and which deleted while policy is worked out.

I suggest a panel of five people representing differing shades of opinion, with a process that means some are deleted and some are kept. Then everyone else can get on with more productive things. It's silly to have so many people involved when at the end of the day, they'll either all be deleted or all be recreated. Stephen B Streater 20:20, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Does a userbox having people with emotional attachment automatically make them inflammatory? What about the organ donor one? That had lots of emotional attachment, but it is almost completely inconceivable that it is inflammatory. (I just renewed my driver's license today, and made sure to check the box for organ donation, in part because this issue reminded me of it.)

It makes no sense to do anything with userboxes until policy is worked out. All deleting some does is inflame the situation and make it look like those doing the deleting are trying to get their licks in before they're told not to. That's the fundamental argument here: an admin took it upon himself to act while policy is still in flux, and the consensus appears to be that that is objectionable. Your panel would be even more so. Jay Maynard 20:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

A panel might not be a bad idea, but I'd be shocked if anything becomes a policy on userboxes without just being done for a while first. I'd suggest that whomever forms such a panel look for 1) regular participation (no use having someone who drops out for months at a time), 2) demonstrated ability to be educational in discussing the topic, and for at least most of the panel members 3) demonstrated nuanced decisionmaking - no use having a panel of people whose opinions are predictable before they even see the userbox, as that would defeat the reason for forming a panel. I don't think this could become policy, but if a few people formed a panel that would chime in when requested, and that panel met Stephen B Streater's and my criteria, it could help and could even be a good enhancement to WP:GUS. I'm going to boldly take the suggestion, Jay's and my comments over to the talk page for that. So please follow up on this idea at it's talk page. GRBerry 20:40, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Comment. What boggles my mind is that everyone seems to overlook that deleting userboxes, especially ones like this that are following the german solution, is far and away more disruptive and divisive that any userbox has ever been on wikipedia. Like it or no, this is the case and has been for some time. Even Jimbo has supported the german solution, why can't it just be left at that. Further attempts to delete WP:GUS compliant userboxes is just going to cause disruption and hassle to everyone and won't change a thing. Userboxes are here to stay. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 21:01, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

This comment is very close to inspiring me give up on all compromise and turn into a hard-core userbox deletionist. Do you think about the effect your words will have on others? If you say "Userboxes are here to stay", that's like throwing a gauntlet down. Why would you do that? -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:36, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm not throwing the gauntlet down, just saying that the german solution is a HUGE compromise on the part of people that want userboxes. Why can't it be the meeting point in the middle? JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought the point of WP:GUS was to allow userboxes to stay, in user space, unless they violated some tenet of WP:USER. Is this not correct? Jay Maynard 22:39, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I thought the point of WP:GUS was to end the userbox war. In the short run, this means that userboxes stay. In the long run, they will become less important, probably less visible, and possibly less used in total. My personal view of the long run, as a middle aged individual, is that it will be a year or two. But again, this is better discussed at the talk page for WP:GUS instead of here. GRBerry 22:45, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Jay, have you read anything Jimbo said about userboxes? The point of WP:GUS is to get userboxes the hell out of template space immediately, and allow us to take our time educating people about why they're actually bad for Wikipedia and getting fully rid of them in the long run. If people aren't even going to pretend to be open to the idea that we might have a point about that, then I don't see much sense in doing all the work of trying to make the process smooth. If you're just bound a determined to culturally colonize Wikipedia, and say fuck what Jimbo and the experienced Wikipedians think, then I can pretty well understand why we might respond by trying quite intentionally to drive you away. How can you talk about compromise, when you're not even willing to admit that you might be wrong? Have you done anything in the direction of opening your mind to the valid point that we just might be making, or is it just riveted shut? I'd really just as soon people with minds riveted shut left the encyclopedia writing to those of us capable of seeing from more than one perspective; we're more qualified. -GTBacchus^(talk) 22:53, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I'm perfectly willing to admit that you might have a point about it. I understand that Jimbo feels userboxes should go. What I'm having trouble with are two things: 1) Why, if having editors state their PsOV on their user pages is such a problem, is it perfectly acceptable for them to use plain text to say the exact same things - as advocated by a leading userbox deletionist? If it harms the project, shouldn't it go, in whatever form, as a matter of policy - which Jimbo has explicitly refused to do in the case of userboxes? 2) I do view WP:GUS as a compromise, because I do not believe that there is any substantial difference between having userboxes in Template: space and having them in User: space (because I do not believe that any reasonable outsider will believe that Wikipedia is endorsing anything on a user page in any way, and those templates are explicitly restricted to user pages). It appears that userboxes in Template: space and comprehensive userbox directories are at an end, and I'm willing to give that up - but only if there's compromise from the other side, as well. The German userbox solution is that workable compromise, as long as admins don't try to torpedo it by unilaterally applying T1 to templates in user space where it doesn't belong. One admin did so, and that's why we're here.

I'm honestly not trying to piss you off. You have been a voice of reason throughout the implementation of WP:GUS, and even though you may not believe that, I do appreciate it. I'm not out to culturally colonize Wikipedia. I am out to recognize human dynamics, not ignore them, however, in this diverse community. Jay Maynard 23:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Well, why not stop repeating this tired mantra that people are trying to "ignore human dymanics", for starters? If you're going to persistently mischaracterize the anti-userbox position, I'm going to assume you don't know what it actually is. I don't want anyone to be bland, pretend they have no strong opinions, or hide their POV. That's not what it's about.

Also, "if it harms the project, shouldn't it go, in any form, as a matter of policy?" No. That would be the authoritarian approach. I'll say it again - Wikipedia doesn't work the way you're guessing it must. You have to think outside the bun here. Wikipedia is a new kind of thing, where new kinds of dynamics occur. We don't accomplish things by making rules, and then carrying them out. We suggest, persuade, evolve, flow. I'm not saying that all the people deleting userboxes are providing good examples of how it's supposed to work, but... have you studied Wikis at all? Presumably, anyone who thinks they're working for the good of Wikipedia on this issue has spent a lot of hours at MeatballWiki and the WikiWikiWeb learning about this new technology, and what its social aspects are like, right? If you don't know what Wikiculture is like, how do you know you're not helping to aggressively colonize it, quite by accident, with a destructive view of how it should run?

Next, iconography has power. A rectangle turns a piece of text into a badge, and places its bearer into a category, defined by the text in the box. It's a clear message: "I'm taking a side!" I had a few political userboxes at first, because there's something alluring about them - if you see them on someone else's page, you want some of your own. They're kind of viral that way. Then, one day I realized that my goal, as a Wikipedian, is to dissolve those boundaries, get outside of myself, and continually improve my ability to see issues from multiple perspectives, which quite explicitly translates into better encyclopedia writing. I'm not hiding my beliefs, I just don't choose to emphasize them here, because this is where I try to be something bigger than myself. If they're relevant to an article, I'll state them in the proper context, when I'm in a discussion about that article. I refuse, however, to display a bunch of badges and send the message to anyone visiting my userspace: here's a writer with an agenda, someone who might care about the encyclopedia, but definitely cares about issues X, Y, and Z.

The worst consequence is this: there are peeople in this world who don't care at all about NPOV. They don't care about making a neutral encyclopedia for everyone, that's fair to everyone. They care about advancing their agenda. They are not welcome here. They are enemies to our project. A sheet of colorful useboxes advertising one's pet causes makes Wikipedia look custom-made for POV-pushing. We would prefer that POV-pushers look around Wikipedia and see "gosh, there's a lot of people here who seem really committed to being super-fair minded about things, I feel kind of out of place all advocating for one side in my pet dispute."

Now, I think I've just described a position that's different from how you were characterizing the userbox deletionist stance. Please tell me, Jay, if I've managed to make a distinction between what I say you were saying I'm saying, and what I'm actually saying. Please tell me that I've managed to show that I'm not interested in making people hide their POVs, but I'm actually interested in an ideal where people, fully cognizant and admitting of their POVs, strive to transcend them with every edit to the Wikipedia, and would actually just feel funny advertising them with an attractive little box, just like you might feel out of place wearing a sandwich board advertising your business to church.

I will be quite happy if you continue to disagree, as long as you're accurate about what it is you're disagreeing with. If I haven't managed to clarify it here, please let me know, and I will keep trying. -GTBacchus^(talk) 01:19, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

This deserves much more reply than I'm comfortable putting in here, as we seem to be getting a bit far afield from the subject (at least, I don't think DRV is a place to discuss deep concepts of Wikipedia philosophy). I'll limit myself here to saying that I'm as fully committed to NPOV in article space as you are, and I fully agree that this is not the place to advance anyone's agenda; I simply disagree that it's fully possible to check one's biases at the door. While your ideal is laudable, it is impossible, and it behooves us to act in understanding of how people are, rather than how we'd like them to be. Jay Maynard 02:06, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

I second the feelings above and add, what is so bad about someone explicitly stating their POVs? If anything it makes it easier to identify if they've let POV come into their work in the article space. If I state, as I do, in my infobox that I am for immigrants rights and then edit an article on that topic with a potentially skewed bias it will be easier to identify that I did and for it to be modified to a more NPOV statement. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 23:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

• Undelete first (whether or not necessary, as it's reappeared elsewhere in Winhunter's user pages); do not send to MfD, as it's not T1, T2, T3, or otherwise Speedyable. keep second deleted only if transcluded by other users, otherwise undelete (if necessary) It is T1, but that doesn't apply unless it's a template. — Arthur Rubin | (talk) 00:03, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• undelete these please they are in user space erasure was wrongful Yuckfoo 01:26, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - these are T2 boxes that would have been quite properly deleted if they had been in template space. Metamagician3000 11:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete and slap speedy deleter with a healthy trout. These are in user space. Restore them and get back to the encyclopedia. Please remember --Speedy Deletion is not a Toy 22:41, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Kill these dead and point those interested to MySpace. --Calton | Talk 05:22, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
  • ARGH!!! Would those folks who oppose userboxes please, please quit insulting those of us who favor them by saying we're trying to turn Wikipedia into MySpace? It's just not true, and it's approaching the level of gratuitous incivility. Jay Maynard 12:07, 15 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I'd call it pretty much a violation of both WP:AGF and WP:CIVIL. --StuffOfInterest 12:25, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Strategic Policy Consulting

Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Strategic Policy Consulting

The article about Strategic Policy Consulting was recently deleted and protected against re-creation, along with its associated redirects. This article is referred to in the frequently vandalised article about Alireza Jafarzadeh. Strategic Policy Consulting is relevant to a current event, the Iran and weapons of mass destruction issue. The company, through its links with the Mujahedeen-e_Khalq, is the primary US source of intelligence about Iran at present. The advice it provides may lead to US military action against Iran, thereby changing the course of history in the near future. A Wikipedia article about this company may be referred to by key decision makers throughout the world as they weigh the value of the advice it provides. With this in mind I would like to suggest the article be re-created so that it can be expanded and linked appropriately. --Dave 08:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Without commenting on the value of the article, I have to say that "A Wikipedia article about this company may be referred to by key decision makers throughout the world as they weigh the value of the advice it provides" is the scariest thing I'm likely to read today. Are you serious? · rodii · 15:16, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Comment was the article deleted by speedy or via AfD? And yes, the idea of the government consulting wikipedia is very frightening. --tjstrf 15:22, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Strategic Policy Consulting. User:Zoe|^(talk) 15:41, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
      • I think Dave probably means that key decision markers will be consulting the subject of the article, not the article itself. If it is the "primary US source of intelligence about Iran", that sounds like a claim of notability not considered by the original AfD that would be worth a re-examination. Is there a third-party source to support this claim? --Sam Blanning^(talk) 16:13, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • That's not how I read it. Not that it's a big deal, but I read it as saying "key decisions maker will turn to the Wikipedia article for background on this company when they decide how much weight to give the company's intelligence." And that seems wrong to me. At the very least, we should be careful not to give credence to any claims about the company unless they meet a pretty high standard of verification. But I think that takes us out of deletion review territory. I agree with what you say about re-examining the evidence. · rodii · 16:39, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Unprotect/undelete. The article was deleted as an advertisement, but only 4 users even commented on the deletion. A rewritten form should be acceptable and it has a seemingly good claim to notability based on its owner. --tjstrf 17:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse close, but don't object to a rewrite if notability can be established. Just because only four people commented does not make this an invalid deletion. Discuss process. Please note that Googling '"Strategic Policy Consulting, Inc." -wikipedia' only brings up 55 hits, and the first five of those are various websites created by the company. User:Zoe|^(talk) 20:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted: I was the person who originally put this article up for AfD, way back just over a year ago. At the time, the article contained nothing to establish notability. One of the phrases from the article prior to that deletion: "there is a new power house in foreign policy namely Strategic Policy Consulting, Inc." The article read like spam, and I feel was deleted appropriately. The four versions that have been speedy deleted since the AfD deletion have contained less content than the first entry, with the content being less spam like but containing nothing to assert notability. That Alireza Jafarzadeh is the company's president is not in my opinion sufficient to make the company itself notable, as what minimal content has been included in the five deleted versions of the article could very easily be merged into the Alireza Jafarzadeh article. There is a claim above that this company is the primary source of intelligence on Iran for the United States. If that is true, then that is certainly enough claim to notability for an article. However, the claim at this point is uncited. I invite the person who made this deletion review request to create a proposed article at Strategic Policy Consulting/Temp, complete with citations and references substantiating this group's notability. This will give us an opportunity to fairly evaluate if there really is a claim to notability here or if the content should be included in the Alireza Jafarzadeh article, with perhaps a redirect from the subject article. --Durin 21:19, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse speedy-deletions as recreated content. Allow a rewrite in the Temp space citing independent third-party sources and demonstrating how this company meets the criteria of WP:CORP. I note that this page was rewritten during the AFD discussion by user:12.38.30.1, an IP address whose registration traces back to the same street address as this company. It was reposted word-for-word by that same IP and by two other IPs, leading me to believe that this is a single insider posting about his/her company. If you think you or your company might be important enough for an article, it's always a good idea to wait and let someone else write it. Rossami (talk) 22:59, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Update: In reviewing the contribution history of the anon IP user, every edit made to other articles has apparently either been deleted or reverted as vandalism. That does seem to make it harder to assume good faith in this particular case. Rossami (talk) 01:42, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted stub article which made absolutely no claim to encyclopaedic notability. Just zis Guy you know? 08:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

I will take up Durin's offer to write a new article on Strategic Policy Consulting. I assure everyone it will not read like an advertisement. If my rewrite of the Alireza Jafarzadeh is any indication it will probably result in another item on my vandal patrol to-do list.

To those above who were apprehensive at the thought of powerful people using Wikipedia for background, it happens regularly. We know for a fact government officials, politicians and other powerful people use Google. Wikipedia articles are often listed close to the top of a Google search and may be the first non-corporate information browsers encounter. At present the number two listing on a Google search for 'strategic policy consulting inc.' is http://www.answers.com/topic/strategic-policy-consulting-inc. The answers.com article is a direct copy of the Wikipedia article recently deleted, even citing Wikipedia as its source. Scary as it is, when powerful people search the web for information today, Wikipedia is often one of the first places they look. --Dave 00:18, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Actuarial Outpost

This article was previously nominated for deletion with a decision of non-consensus. I question that the article meets neutrality and verifiability conditions for wiki articles. The original article was submitted by a member of the chat site as a vanity piece. The author, Avi, goes by the same name here and on the chat site. He is listed on the web chat site as a site supporter, which he describes as people who contributed funds to sustain the site. Also, most of the article is not verifiable as to who visits, size or influence.Deletionary 03:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• User's 5 edits are all to a AfD or DRV. Kimchi.sg 03:35, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Unless you have reason to think that the judgement of non consensus is incorrect, and that really there WAS a consensus to delete but the admin missed it, the best thing to do is to wait an appropriate time, and relist the article. DRV is not for revisiting the deletion discussion itself (which it often is helpful to give a link to, though, by the way) but rather for discussing whether there's some reason that it needs to be overturned. IMHO anyway. ++Lar: t/c 05:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Delete It appears the decision of non-consensus was unduly influenced by the "author" of the site's article and other members of the site who do not satisfy a neutrality requirement. I was not aware of this information and likely the reviewer was not aware either. The user name Avi, is identified as a financial contributor, site supporter, of the site the article is about. Wikipedia is supposed to be a community project and guided by neutrality and verifiable content. I am disappointed that opinions can be inserted into this project so easily in the form of non-neutral vanity pieces. I suppose I come to wikipwedia with too high of expectations.Deletionary 12:54, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

11 June 2006

The Esplanade Mall

Sheesh - I had to hunt through my browser history to find this. It was deleted recently on VFD. I found it soon after in CAT:CSD tagged at a repost. When I found it, it already was not "just a lengthy list of stores that exist at a mall" as the originally-deleted article was. I cleaned it up and completely rewrote it; the article included information about it being closed due to Hurricane Katrina. And yet it was still deleted as a repost. --SPUI (T - C) 18:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment I was the admin who last deleted this article (it had been deleted as a repost once before). Although the content had been slightly rewritten it was fundamentally the same article. I believe that there may have been some confusion here, because the original article also contained a list of stores (but not only a list of stores - as a comment on the AfD indicated). Please let me know if you want me to retrieve the actual contents. Cheers TigerShark 19:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  I remember rewriting it - the grammar was horrible. Also, one of the "votes" reads:

  Even the cleaned-up version (of Clearview Mall) is simply a list of stores. If the article were to contain additional information, such as history of the mall, significant stores that have come and gone, significant events held at the mall, etc. I'd say keep.

  Given that the article as rewritten included some history, either Rehcsif didn't bother to read the article, or the article as rewritten was not the one on VFD. --SPUI (T - C) 19:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse speedy deletion. The article as it stood at the time when the AfD was closed and the article deleted was substantially similar to the most recent version, the main difference being that the most recent version was better written and some cruft had been jettisoned (which did not affect the rationale for deletion - non-notability). A mention of the mall being affected by Hurricane Katrina was inserted into the article only an hour after the AfD began, and didn't sway any editors. And is that really the most interesting thing to say about this shopping centre? Certainly Hurricane Katrina damaged loads of places and doesn't confer notability by association. Unless there's something verified about it that hasn't been brought up yet worth putting in an encyclopaedia, keep deleted. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 19:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • If "votes" that concur with deletion of the present article due to its problems are to be taken as "votes" against any future article on the topic, I will be sure to "vote" to keep any article about a shopping mall, no matter how shitty the writing is. On the one hand, people say to "vote" on how the current article is, not on what it could be, but then (presumably) others delete any new article as a re-creation. --SPUI (T - C) 19:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Restore. For any mall, it is worth describing its role as a transit hub, if this is the case. TruthbringerToronto 20:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist at AfD per TruthbringerToronto. (I tagged the latest recreation of the article, which SPUI removed.) Let's see if SPUI (and others?) can expand the article enough. Kimchi.sg 03:44, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• 'Relist might as well see the contents and judge based on those, it sounds like it might be an expandable subject. --tjstrf 05:36, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • We already did that, and so far no new content has been presented to judge since the AfD closed 3 days ago. --Sam Blanning^(talk) 08:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. It was listed alongside Clearview Mall, and both received an overwhelming proportion of delete votes, including comments like "malls are not inheirantly notable" and "malls are generally not notable." and "I appreciate the idea and effort, but articles on the malls of towns falls under Wikipedia is not an indiscriminate collection of information." GeorgeStepanek\^talk 11:02, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I'm going to use one of my rare free moments to make a quick comment about this article. I originally listed the article for AfD when it was a list of malls, I would still place in AfD after seeing the recreated article. This mall wasn't the only thing that was hit by Hurricane Katrina, many more things were devasted by it. For instance, homes, roads, a large stadium, people's lives. By placing an article on a mall and stating that it's notable because it closed due to a large Hurricane, is making a mockery of people's lives and of the purpose of Wikipedia. Nothing notable happened in this mall to make it noteworthy, and the closing of a mall due to a hurricane (which is what the mall is SUPOSED to do, so that makes it norm), is not anywhere near the quality that Wikipedia needs to maintain. Yanksox 11:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse speedy-deletion. I reviewed a number of the deleted versions of this article both before and after the deletion decision. I do not consider them sufficiently different to have addressed the core concerns raised during the deletion discussion. Rossami (talk) 22:40, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Speedy undelete as an improper speedy deletion. Silensor 19:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, no significant improvment has been made. JohnnyBGood t c VIVA! 20:58, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Sydney Ling

I feel that this one was badly handled on account of two things - I believe that there was clearly a consensus (and just a few votes shy of a supermajority) for deleting the article. Even more troubling, however, is the fact that the moderator Mailer diablo literally closed the debate and then actually retired from Wikipedia! (At least according to his user page - this all has happened today.) In any case, I'm a bit distressed both because of the outcome and the fact that the mod just got up and left the community straight after. I believe that this was mishandled, and I'd advocate an overturn and delete; here's the original AfD. Thanks! Girolamo Savonarola 13:16, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Shame about Mailer leaving; it does mean we can't ask him to explain himself. This seems a borderline case; I'd suggest overturning the close and relisting. Mackensen (talk) 14:38, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• (edit conflict) Endorse closure. I think you are confusing the way these deletion debates are handled. Consensus is a higher standard than a mere supermajority. It means that we pay as much or more attention to the weight of arguments as we do to the weight of numbers. Reviewing the discussion, I make a vote-count of 16 "delete" to 7 "keep" (with one probable troll discounted). Had there been strong evidence, that could have been sufficient to interpret as the necessary "rough consensus" for deletion. In this case, however, the arguments focused on whether the person is notable enough to meet our recommended criteria for inclusion of biographies and neither side of this debate presented strong evidence either way. Furthermore, many of the participants explicitly qualified their opinions as "weak" (5 of the "keeps" were phrased as "weak keep" and 2 of the "deletes" were "weak delete"). Closing this discussion as "no consensus" seems to me to be well within the reasonable discretion of a closing admin.
  Note: a "no consensus" decision defaults to keep for now but does not prevent anyone from gathering stronger evidence and renominating it for deletion after a reasonable delay. Rossami (talk) 14:40, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

How, exactly, does one gain stronger evidence of non-notability? You cannot prove a negative, right? I understand that it is not merely a matter of votes, but I offered up what I could, and no one else had much to say. This may be because there wasn't much left to say - those for keeping didn't speak up to justify their votes, while those who voted to delete explained their specific rationale (re notability). Were they expected to expound on it for a full paragraph each? Clearly they felt the matter was a simple one and didn't feel the need to orate on it. While I respect that this isn't necessary what is sought after in an AfD, please let me know what else could have been done, if something wasn't handled well. Girolamo Savonarola 14:57, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

To gain stronger evidence of non notability, search in more and different, yet still appropriate, places and present the negative results. ++Lar: t/c 11:54, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Um, Lar, surely the onus is on those claiming notability to prove that is the case, and not the other way round as it's based on WP:V, verifying that he's notable. (also see comment below) Regards, MartinRe 12:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

Oh, I agree. I was just directly answering the question asked. However, on a RE list, I think the lister has some responsibility to present new information, sufficient to justify why the previous result was unsatisfactory, or to show that things have changed in some way . That said, I agree with what you say below (and endorse the closure), because "the passage of time with no new notability proof" is a kind of "change in some way". ++Lar: t/c 12:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse closure the afd focused on whether the subject was notable enough, and the opinion seemed to be borderline, verging on no, so "no consensus" seems a fair enough call on the afd. (if in doubt, don't delete, but not enough case for full keep) However, the notability claims need to be strengthened to remove that doubt, if this is not done, then it could be brought to afd again after a reasonable time, and if the arguements are similar, it will probably swing to delete, with the additional factor of no claims being found since the last afd weighing against the notability claim. Regards, MartinRe 12:14, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, Mailer diablo does not need to explain himself, the no consensus to delete is quite clear. Silensor 19:25, 13 June 2006 (UTC)

Siberian language

This page has been unilaterally deleted by moderator Alex Bakharev, based on a VfD of more than a year ago. I should point out, however, that a lot of things can change in a year's time, and I have such a feeling that this is the case here. Besides, the contents of the recreated article was completely different from the previous (deleted) version. I should also point out that there is a pending request for a wikipedia in the language, and therefore I think this article is not only of value, but even necessary. I propose undeleting it immediately and issuing a normal AfD procedure instead. — --IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 09:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

• Comment Original deletion discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Siberian language. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Abstain - The current contents are indeed vastly different than the old, and it does seem perhaps a bit odd to delete as a recreate of a validly deleted article. That being said, the new content was incredibly poor, with bad spelling, links to livejournal, and many of the other markers of a poor article. I also wonder whether it's appropriate to call this a language -- by the article it sounds more like a description of a dialect (perhaps like calling a Boston accent a Boston language?). In sum, I don't know if there's any content worth keeping, and the title's probably misleading too. I'm open to lines of reasoning by other people on this one. --Improv 10:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • The matter is just to construct a full language on the base of dialect --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:22, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Are you saying this is a project to build a language out of a dialect? Are you involved? How big is this? --Improv 15:14, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • 1. Yes. 2. We have group of 81 persons who work at it - http://community.livejournal.com/learn_siberian/profile, but I am the leader of this group. 3. It has 15000 words in dictionary now http://volgota.com/govor/language/lj.doc.zip? online dictionary provided by ukrainian research group (NOT me, I can not program) http://totem.in.ua/sib/trans.php, it has rather wide literature of abouat 100 texts http://volgota.com/govor/, it has news service http://volgota.com/news/, so surely it is not OR --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:26, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
        • Endorse Deletion - No disrespect is intended for you or your project, but this is too small and too new a project to be covered on Wikipedia, and this smacks of using Wikipedia as a promotional vehicle. Maybe in a few years, this might be appropriate for an article, but as for right now, the article is too close to original research (I doubt there are independent studies of the language) and promo. --Improv 16:41, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted - Utter nonsense. There is absolutely no such thing as the "Siberian language". --Timothy Usher 10:58, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • just see it at http://volgota.com - newspaper, books, site interface. Wiki has many articles about languages not so developed as Siberian --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:25, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - The language was developed from the time of last deletion, now it is very complicated, many texts translated and written, many people learning it, a big site launched, so it is not "non-notable" conlang now --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 11:19, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - I absolutely agree with Yaroslav Zolotaryov. By the way, the site about siberian language and test wiki on siberian --Steel archer 14:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Both of these accounts were created to vote on Deletion Review. Not cool. --Improv 16:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • You can see my history in UK and Yaroslav's (Anarch) history in RU Wikipedias. Why new users can't vote? --Steel archer 21:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted - no reliable sources, unverifiable. --Pjacobi 12:01, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Just search in Google "siberian language/сибирский язык/сибирской говор/сибірська мова". And look at test siberian wiki. There are 5-10 millions people in Siberia (and not only there) what spoke on this language, and I'm. too. Do you think I'm speaking on language what is not exist? :) --Steel archer 16:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, looking at the article, the VfD was as valid today as it was last year. --fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 12:07, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Please, elucidate your thought. --Steel archer 16:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. This looks like an attempt to promote a non-notable constructed language. There are no independent, neutral sources to confirm the existance of a specific "Siberian language" as described in the article. There are several languages spoken in Siberia, but this article does not adress any of them. --Ezeu 12:11, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Just search in Google "siberian language/сибирский язык/сибирской говор/сибірська мова". And look at test siberian wiki. There are 5-10 millions people in Siberia (and not only there) what spoke on this language, and I'm. too. Do you think I'm speaking on language what is not exist? :) --Steel archer 15:35, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • The test wiki is not an independent reliable source. Much of it is written by some people participating here. --Ezeu 12:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Siberian language was prohibited in Russian Empire and Soviet Union. And now, most of people which are against this language are russian imperialists indeed. And this is a reason why it is rather difficult to find sources about siberian. There are no full literature siberian language: Yaroslav Zolotaryov just constructs it basing on many siberian dialects. So, you can hardly ever find people speak on ""literature"" siberian - only on its dialects. --Steel archer 16:33, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist to AfD: from my reading in linguistics I would expect it to be deleted there, but it would give non-admins the chance to debate the deletion on the merits of its content, especially as it doesn't seem to meet the recreated content CSD. --Aquilina 12:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - This page needs to be undeleted. The language has already been constructed. It is based on a local dialect, but its' origins are really beside the point. There is, for example, a wiki page for Talossan language, that has been constructed by a single person for a country completely invented by him, and whose "words and grammar are just made up at random". Surely Siberian has far better basis. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 68.20.29.135 (talk • contribs) 13:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• The speedy-deleted version was significantly different from the deleted version. On that basis, I'm afraid that we must overturn the speedy-deletion and relist to AFD. However, I am deeply skeptical that the article will prevail during the deletion discussion. The prior deletion discussion was unanimous and included the opinion of the alleged author of this recently constructed language. None of the concerns raised in the prior deletion debate have been answered either in the redeleted article nor in this discussion so far. The wiki does not meet the required standards for a reliable source and the google test (168 unique hits) returns very little that appears relevant. Every hit I scanned used the phrase "Siberian language" in the casual sense of "a language used by a community indiginous to the geographic area of Siberia", not in the sense of a unified language. Rossami (talk) 14:24, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • You can try the google test in russian language, and will see many sources about the siberian not from me or Volgota group. Being an artefact of local culture, it is simply not mentioned in the english-speaking audience --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:37, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Without sources that are functionally verifiable by the english-speaking participants of the English Wikipedia, that won't help much. Perhaps this would be more appropriate if transwiki'd to the Russian Wikipedia]? Rossami (talk) 14:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Better to the ukrainian article in http://ukr.wikipedia.org/wiki, because we believe it is more ibjective. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Weak overturn and relist per Aquilina. The version debated on VfD was a short stub, while the version deleted as G4 was fairly detailed. That said, I'd say the new version fails WP:OR pretty hard, and should be deleted or heavily shortened on that basis unless independent sources are provided. It's almost a WP:SNOW case, but I'm personally willing to give it its five days on AfD, just in case I'm proven wrong. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 14:32, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Some independent sources http://dpni.org/forum/post48701.html

    http://e-novosti.info/forumo/viewtopic.php?t=1819 (discussion about necessary of tukr words are they allowed or not)

    Kazakhstan article http://www.dialog.kz/site.php?lan=russian&id=76&pub=1032 (positive)

    Ukrainian article http://lab.org.ua/article/727/ (positive)

    Latvian forum http://www.evangelie.ru/forum/archive/t-14778-p-2.html (positive reaction)

    Ukrainian forums http://forum.sevastopol.info/viewtopic.php?p=134921&sid=e1bfb2dad69ccbe92f653f8e69a61352 http://www.novy.tv/ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=20068&sid=6dfe6e7e13df8be971f34aa81aa365c5 (positive reaction, people reciting verses in siberian)

    Russian forum http://www.disenteria.ru/index.php?act=ST&f=1&t=7492&s= (some people from Siberia testify that they know this words and grammar)

    Moscow forum http://forum.msk.ru/wap/news.wml?id=2200 (negative reaction, but the language considered natural)

    --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 14:44, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

    • Do you have any sources in English? The sources above may well substantiate the claims in the article for all I know, but I can't really tell since my grasp of Russian is almost nonexistent. Failing that, you might try to find a neutral established Wikipedian who understands Russian to review the sources — any volunteers? (In any case, this discussion belongs on AfD, should the article get relisted there, not here on DRV. If you wish to reply in length, please do so on my talk page or wait for the AfD listing.) —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:06, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Relist as different, where I will vote delete as this asserts the factual existence of this language, but no reliable sources have been produced to suggest that it is anything other than a conlang. Just zis Guy you know? 16:30, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Keep deleted per Mikka, who speaks several comparable languages and is (unlike the average AfD voter) able to understand the supposed sources. Just zis Guy you know? 22:38, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• keep deleted. original research. No independent information from anywhere but fans' writings provided. (forums are not allowed as sources for wikipedia) `'mikka (t) 19:49, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: this is nót about the question whether it is a good article or not. If there's something wrong with an article, it should be improved. Perhaps the English wasn't perfect indeed, and perhaps there was a link to a blog or something, but I think this article was still a lot better than the average stub. That kind of things can be fixed easily without deleting an article. Neither is this about the question whether constructed languages in general should be in Wikipedia or not. Nor about the question whether this article was original research. This is about the way it was deleted! Every time when a conlang is listed for deletion, they say: at present this language is not notable enough, but when that has changed, by all means create an article about it. Now, I think there are reasons to assume that that is indeed the case here. I can see many reasons why the language is notable enough. But even if I'm wrong, the merits of Siberian should be discussed properly in an AfD discussion, but definitely not here. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 21:28, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Surely, the article can be changed, my english is poor, and my view to the language is definitely non-neutral, so if would be better article, it would be fine --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:07, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted per WP:NOR. It's just another LiveJournal flashmob. MaxSem 21:42, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • That's exactly the point. That might have been true one year ago, it definitely isn't true anymore. But again, let's not start discussing the article itself, but the way it has been deleted. At present, no one can even read what the discussion is about. I think the least it deserves is a proper AfD discussion, pending which every participant in the discussion can read the article. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 21:47, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Comment: I've temporarily undeleted the history for the duration of this DRV discussion. —Ilmari Karonen (talk) 23:12, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Extreme speedy keep deleted. OR, an attempt at advertising an nn conlang, nothing has changed to make this more notable than the first decision to delete. We're not here to reargue the AfD, but to discuss whether or not the original deletion was appropriate. It was, it still is. User:Zoe|^(talk) 23:29, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Pardon me, but this is not about the question whether the original deletion was appropriate. It no doubt was. If little Pete writes an article about his hobbies, then it will be deleted. But if he's suddenly elected president of the USA, does that mean there can't be an article about him because there has already been a valid VfD? What bothers me is this: once an article has survived an AfD, it can be relisted for deletion again, and again, and again, until the deletionists get their way. But once an article has been deleted, there is no way go get it back, even if things may have changed. I think that's bad, very bad! —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 08:32, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Comment: out of curiosity I looked into the website of the "language". After reading the "translation" of Pushkin quoted below I am more inclined to believe this is a practical joke rather than a serious attempt to revive a supposedly extinct "Siberian" dialect of Russian. Native Russian speakers, prepare for a good laugh:

  Мой дедя шыбко чесных веров,

  Кода-от шыбко захворал,

  Людям дык всю дыхню зашкерил,

  В горбыль всех просто зайобал.

  And there is more of this.`'mikka (t) 23:55, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  • But such were dialetical expressions of the same meaning which is in Pushkin verse, and you laugh simply for diregarding the folk speech --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:09, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Hmm, Eugene Onegin in hillbilly... ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 08:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
      • Tread carefully the fine line between humour and mockery. --Ezeu 08:33, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • No mockery of Pushkin there, Pushkin himself liked dialects, used them, if he were alive now, he perhaps voted for siberian here. His poem "Ruslan and Ludmila" was also regarded as mockery just for using dialectical words and common people's relation to the topic of this poem. So in fact, our group continues Pushkin's work, but conservators are against him --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 08:45, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Irrelevant. Just like "bad spelling", "links to livejournal", "too small and too new a project", "no such thing as the Siberian language", "no reliable sources", "promotion" and "original research" are irrelevant here. Again, this discussion should not be about the language itself. We have AfD discussions for that. This discussion is about the question whether an article that has been deleted in the remote past can or cannot be recreated. The admin in question has unilaterally deleted the article and locked the page, and thát is the decision I'm questioning here. People's personal tastes have no place in such discussion. For the record, I don't have a clear opinion on the matter. I'm in no way connected to the creators of the language. What I can tell as one of Wikipedia's self-proclaimed resident conlang experts, is that a lot seems to have changed since the last AfD. If the language has indeed a group of 80 active users, and if there is some press coverage, then it just might qualify for an article. Besides, we have this discussion about a wikipedia in the language going on. Personally, I don't believe this is a hoax. But like I said, that kind of arguments belong in an AfD discussion, not here. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 08:43, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
    • This was not an argument. This was a comment that started this thread. This zolotarev guy extended his hobby joke as to suggest a siberian language wikipedia. How do you imagine wikipedia in hillbilly. This alone says something about this project. As for 80 active users: how do you know that? Somehow I don't believe Zolotaryov. The basic argument against undeletion is wikipedia:Verifiability. The "some" press coverage seen is not a reliable source, it is still word of language creator's mouth, not of an independent linguistics expert. In other words, the major objection voiced during deletion is not addressed by the new version. Article size doesn't matter. `'mikka (t) 17:29, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
      • A hundred years ago Ukrainian was also considered "hillbilly Russian" by the czarist government. In other words, thát argument doesn't really hold stake. As for your point regarding verifiability: I tend to agree with you here. I'd love to see some samples of real press coverage, because thát is IMO what makes the difference. I don't know whether to believe Mr. Zolotaryov or not. The whole discussion evokes quite strong reminiscences of High Icelandic. If you haven't seen it, I'd say it's worth to take a look at the AfD discussion there. My whole point is only that I think the subject deserves proper discussion, and this is not the place for it. In a normal AfD discussion I certainly wouldn't have voted "keep" without convincing arguments. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 22:31, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
        • But it should be defined, what argument are relevant in the english wiki. If it will be defined with certainity, I shall find them. "There is no such language at all" surely is not an argument. --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:52, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted this nonsense, please. -- Grafikm ^(AutoGRAF) 18:20, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure, keep deleted. AfD had six deletes, no keeps. No suggestion of any voting irregularities or debatable sysop judgement. I note too that the article has no real references; the fact that one of the external links is described as "Volgota, the main promo site" strongly suggests that the purpose of the article is not to synthesize published factual material into an encyclopedia article, but to promote a project. Dpbsmith (talk) 22:47, 12 June 2006 (UTC)
  • Quite so. Nobody is arguing that the AfD was invalid. But for heaven's sake, that was over a year ago! A lot can change in the meantime. If Yaroslav can somehow substantiate his claims about the number of speakers, and provide some verifiable info regarding press coverage, then I can't see why the article wouldn't deserve a second chance. —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 05:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • In what way can I substantiate it? What info about the press is verifiable? --Yaroslav Zolotaryov 15:54, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • I see no reason to believe that this Yaroslav fellow (among others) has any existence beyond that of a sockpuppet created to vote in this deletion review..Timothy Usher 05:37, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
      • But I do! User's first contribution was dated 10 June, 18:49 (UTC). This deletion review was dated 11 June, 9:32 (UTC). So tell me: how can this account have been created with the sole purpose of voting here, if there wasn't any vote yet? I think it's always better to assume good faith! —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 07:15, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted, nn and ue. Also, there seems to be a campaign to start a separate Wikipedia in this language. What's next Klingon and Elvish Wikipedias? --Irpen 01:32, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
  • There used to be a wikipedia in Klingon, but it has been closed down. An Elvish wikipedia has been proposed, but I don't think there's enough support for it. BTW, I'm not thát frequent a guest here; what does "ue" mean? —IJzeren Jan _{In mij legge alle fogultjes een ij} 05:34, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
    • Those must have been shut down for a reason. ue=unencyclopedic, nn=non-notable. --Irpen 15:23, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Nonsense. --Ghirla ^-трёп- 15:31, 13 June 2006 (UTC)
• Keep deleted. Nonsense of course. Elk Salmon 08:24, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
• Undelete - Article is present in four Wikipedians (ru:Сибирский язык, be:Сыбірская мова, eo:Siberia lingvo,uk:Сибiрська мова). Please see also discussion in Russian Wikipedia (ru:Обсуждение:Сибирский язык) There article is solved keep and increase. See also article Slovio - such constructed language --Yakudza 15:14, 14 June 2006 (UTC)
  • It is also being considered for deletion on the Russian Wikipedia, with a current consensus to delete (see ru:Википедия:К удалению/14 июня 2006#Сибирский язык) ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 01:45, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

Very Weak Overturn and immediate AfD - The original was just a stub; for the sake of process, the deleted content should have its day in court. Being a linguist, I am sure it will fail AfD. I think the effort might be notable enough to (very briefly) mention the attempted "promotion" of a dialect in another article (Russian language, maybe?), but it definately doesn't deserve its own article.--WilliamThweatt 15:20, 14 June 2006 (UTC)

• Endorse deletion per mikka & MaxSem, article is original research. ˉˉ^anetode╞┬╡ 01:50, 15 June 2006 (UTC)

10 June 2006

Template:Major_programming_languages

I did not see the TfD discussion until after someone acted on it to remove the template from an article I watch. Looking through the discussion, it appears that the discussion had 11 delete votes, and 6 keep votes (FWIW, I would have voted "keep" if I had noticed it). It doesn't seem like deletion on a bare majority is the right closing action (no consensus would be more fitting). As far as I can see, all the votes on both sides were cast in good faith, by established editors, and accompanied by reasonable statements of reasons. So the conduct of the discussion seems eminently reasonable... it just doesn't seem to have been closed correctly. LotLE×talk 20:20, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

• Note: Original TFD: Wikipedia:Templates_for_deletion/Log/2006_May_25#Template:Major_programming_languages — xaosflux ^Talk 00:05, 11 June 2006 (UTC)
• Endorse closure. I would have closed this TfD the same way IceKarma did. Unless Lulu's opinion would have brought with it a fantastic new argument, I doubt including his "vote" amongst the others would have tipped the balance, either. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 09:20, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  No,I wouldn't have had any fantastic argument that was much different from other voters. I just think that a supermajority (i.e. 75-80%, or at the least 66%) should be required for deletion, rather than just a majority (absent evidence of sockpuppetry, or clearly more experienced editors on one side of a vote, or other special circumstance... none of which existed here). 11/7 is pretty much the same thing as 11/6 in this regard. LotLE×talk 17:34, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  Well, *fD's being not a vote is more than just discounting inexperience or sockpuppetry. It also means that an overwhelming majority is not required for consensus to exist. Now, don't get me wrong; I'm generally in favor of keeping articles over deleting them (as long as they're maintainable and verifiable), but it seems clear from the discussion that maintaining the template was plain infeasible, by consensus. I also note that there was no prejudice against creating a new, more maintainable template. Powers 18:10, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

  When did I mention the tally? When closing AfDs, MfDs, RfDs, and the occasional (during the long dark teatime of the soul) TfD, I make a point of never counting the number of "votes". Knowledge of the raw numbers will shed no light on the appropriate course of action, and is thus unnecessary and occasionally even obfuscatory. Bugger the tally. fuddlemark (befuddle me!) 04:26, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

• Lulu: Tfd is not a vote! Don't count comments like it was one. --Cyde↔Weys 03:30, 12 June 2006 (UTC)

06 June 2006

Image:WikiPâques.png

Image:WikiPâques.png was deleted in February on the basis it was an orphan. Well, of course it was an orphan - it was February and the image was an Easter Wikipedia logo, so it'll only be unorphaned when it's Easter. I see no valid reason to delete this. Users may still want it on their user page at Easter. It's also causing red links in older revisions. See Wikipedia:Images and media for deletion/2006 February 14 for the listing on IfD. There's a copy here if the deletion is overturned and someone wants to reupload it. Angela. 08:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC)

• Re-upload to Commons, so any project can use it, and Commons is outside of enwiki's jurisdiction. --Rory096 08:42, 6 June 2006 (UTC)
• Upload to Commons, it doesn't appear to be english, but may be useful. — xaosflux ^Talk 11:50, 10 June 2006 (UTC)

Recently concluded

2006 June

1. Okashina_Okashi - Decision of the original closer to relist at AfD is endorsed. 15:27, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
2. Dismal's Paradox - Relisted at AfD. 15:12, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
3. User:SPUI/jajaja - Nomination withdrawn. 13:29, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
4. List of political leaders widely regarded as totalitarian - Request for information answered. 05:04, 30 June 2006 (UTC) Review
5. Certainty principle - Deletion endorsed. 16:48, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
6. Cultural references in Pokémon - Deletion endorsed. 16:39, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
7. Fluffy (The Lion King) - Deletion endorsed. 16:28, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
8. Kelly Roberti - Copyright issue resolved, restored. 11:41, 29 June 2006 (UTC) Review
9. Image:Pierre Janssen.jpg - Commons image, action impossible here. 15:13, 28 June 2006 (UTC) Review
10. Neanderthal theory of autism - Deletion endorsed. 15:57, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
11. Be bold, Be Bold - Overturn RfD and revert to WP:BOLD. 15:51, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
12. Jeff Lindsay - Deletion endorsed. 15:41, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
13. "State Debate Associations" - Deletion endorsed. 15:37, 27 June 2006 (UTC) Review
14. How NOT to steal a SideKick 2 - Deletion endorsed. 17:45, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
15. Kinston Indians - Deletion endorsed. 17:40, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
16. Wikipedia:SCAG - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:36, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
17. Image:Nuvola 64 apps important.png - undeletion impossible; deleted prior to 16 June 2006. 13:13, 25 June 2006 (UTC) Review
18. Sick Nick Mondo - Deletion endorsed for now, pending AfD outcome for related Nick Mondo; should that survive, this is a suitable redirect. 18:52, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review

    Nick Mondo having survived AfD, this is restored as a redirect. 15:33, 30 June 2006 (UTC)

19. True Torah Jews - Deletion endorsed. 18:46, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review
20. UCIP - Deletion endorsed. 18:42, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review
21. Mending Wall - Keep endorsed. 11:07, 24 June 2006 (UTC) Review
22. Fred Wilson (venture capitalist) - Deletion endorsed. 17:39, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
23. TheSmartMarks.com - Deletion endorsed. 17:37, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
24. Dirt pudding - Transwiki and deletion endorsed. 17:33, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
25. Kirill Makharinsky - Deletion endorsed. 17:31, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
26. Armando Lloréns-Sar - History restored, maintained as redirect; merge issues are an editorial concern for article's talk page. 17:28, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
27. Hollywood Undead - Deletion endorsed. 17:13, 23 June 2006 (UTC) Review
28. Trexy - Closing administrator agreed to relist AFD. 03:31, 22 June 2006 (UTC) Review
29. Stir of Echoes: The Dead Speak - No consensus closure endorsed. 18:46, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
30. Knox (animator) - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 18:44, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
31. Lightsaber combat - Keep closure endorsed. 18:42, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
32. Stone Trek - Deletion closure endorsed. 18:36, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
33. File:944 h.jpg - DRV closed, image in Commons jurisdiction. 18:33, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
34. Sadullah Khan - Undeleted, relisted. 18:23, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
35. Atromitos - Undeleted. 18:17, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
36. Walk To Emmaus - Deletion endorsed. 18:11, 21 June 2006 (UTC) Review
37. Wikipedia:Conservative notice board. Kept deleted. Strong endorsement. 20:13, 20 June 2006 (UTC) Review.
38. Lost: The Journey - Relisted. 18:49, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
39. User:Dtm142/User no evil boxes and Template:User Gangster - Undeleted. 18:41, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
40. The Lost Boys (demogroup) - Relist. 17:29, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
41. Second War (Harry Potter) - Deletion endorsed. 17:27, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
42. IRCDig - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:20, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
43. Saryn Hooks - Undeleted and relisted at AfD. 17:09, 19 June 2006 (UTC) Review
44. Template:Major_programming_languages - template content restored 06:59, 19 June 2006 (UTC) review
45. Strategic Policy Consulting - Deletion endorsed. 16:31, 17 June 2006 (UTC) Review
46. Actuarial Outpost - Kept kept, mistaken nomination. 16:26, 17 June 2006 (UTC) Review
47. Image:WikiPâques.png - Uploaded to Commons, as suggested. 16:18, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
48. The Esplanade Mall - Deletion endorsed by narrow majority. 16:02, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
49. Sydney Ling - AfD result of "no consensus" endorsed. 15:57, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
50. Siberian language - Deletion endorsed. 15:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
51. Burlington Center Mall - Challenge of no consensus afd withdrawn. 02:52, 16 June 2006 (UTC) Review
52. Erik Möller - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:36, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
53. theSMSzone.com and Kunal Singh - Deletions endorsed. 17:32, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
54. Wikipedia:OURS - Deletion endorsed by narrow majority. 17:27, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
55. 2001: A Space Odyssey (film synopsis) - Deletion endorsed. 17:05, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
56. Conservative Underground - Deletion endorsed. 17:00, 15 June 2006 (UTC) Review
57. Boring Business Systems - AfD reopened by acclamation. 20:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
58. Joseph D. Campbell - Previous AfD overturned, to be relisted at AfD. 16:55, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
59. Church of Reality - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 16:50, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
60. Heinen's - Result reversed by consensus, AfD now closed as "no consensus". 16:44, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
61. BB Sinha - Restored, listed at AfD. 16:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC) (deleted at AfD 20:27, 17 June 2006 (UTC)) Review
62. Mending Wall - Restored, listed at AfD, closed as keep, brought here again (above). 16:30, 13 June 2006 (UTC) Review
63. Cancer Bats - Restored, to be resubmitted to AfD in light of new evidence. 17:01, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
64. Cum On Her Face - Deletion endorsed. 16:57, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
65. AlternC - Deletion endorsed. 16:53, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
66. Tiffany Holiday - Deletion endorsed. 16:50, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
67. Shane Cubis - Deletion endorsed unanimously (excepting discounted anons/newbies.) 16:46, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
68. Certainty principle - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 16:42, 12 June 2006 (UTC) Review
69. Big Brother 7 chronology - Deletion endorsed. Will userfy upon request. 15:27, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Review
70. Wikimedia Meta-Wiki - action reverted by the closer. AFD reopened. 03:08, 11 June 2006 (UTC) Review
71. The Adventures of Dr. McNinja - Consensus to permit userpage draft as new recreation, will be submitted to AfD. 17:27, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Review
72. Cory kennedy - Deletion endorsed. 17:17, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Review
73. User:Rgulerdem/Wikiethics - Kept deleted unanimously. 17:09, 10 June 2006 (UTC) Review
74. Yar - Deletion endorsed without prejudice to unrelated redirect now at title. 17:55, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
75. List of midnight movies - Content restored for merge and redirect. 17:52, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
76. AK Productions - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 17:49, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
77. FAST - Fighting Antisemitism Together - Undeleted and sent to AfD. 17:46, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
78. List of tongue-twisters - Deletion endorsed in light of new Wikiquote transwiki. 17:36, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
79. User:Raphael1/Wikiethics - Deletion endorsed. 17:32, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
80. Roosters1908, Sydneyroosters1909, and Sydneyroosters1910 - Undeleted to be AfD'ed in light of new evidence. 17:00, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
81. National Hockey Leaque player lists - Restored speedily and AFD reopened. 08:03, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
82. User:AKMask/log - Restored (by a narrow margin) to be sent to MfD. 03:18, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
83. Male Unbifurcated Garment - Deletion endorsed (again -- Second DRV in two weeks.) 03:11, 9 June 2006 (UTC) Review
84. Penis banding - Deletion endorsed. 15:22, 8 June 2006 (UTC) Review
85. Template:User no notability - Deletion narrowly endorsed. (date unavailable, deletion review never archived) Permalink
86. Syed Ahmed - deletion endorsed, redirected to The Apprentice (UK series 2) 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
87. Ho Shin Do - deletion endorsed without prejudice 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
88. Israel News Agency - article content restored 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
89. Delaware County Intermediate Unit - Deletion closure endorsed. 00:49, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
90. Steve Bellone - Deletion closure endorsed unanimously. 00:45, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
91. Team NoA - Previous version restored, survived AfD as no consensus. 00:37, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
92. Springfield M21 - Restored as redirect with history. 16:20, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
93. The drips - Speedy deletion contested, overturned; sent to AfD. 15:29, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
94. Template:Voting icons - Deletion endorsed unanimously. 15:21, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
95. Ali Zafar - New NPOV recreation permitted. 03:39, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
96. Barbara Bauer, The Literary Agency Group and others - Bauer undeleted and kept at AfD; others kept deleted. 03:34, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
97. Scienter - deletion overturned. 03:30, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
98. Auto repair shop - original speedy deletion endorsed, without prejudice to now-existing distinct redirect at this title. 03:24, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
99. Wikipedia v search engines - deletion endorsed unanimously. 03:19, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
100. Pat Price - deletion overturned unanimously, no need to relist. 03:15, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
101. Talk:Brian Peppers - kept deleted. 00:36, 6 June 2006 (UTC) Review
102. The Juggernaut Bitch - article content restored 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
103. South Coast League - deletion endorsed 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
104. Other side of the pillow - deletion endorsed 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
105. Joel Leyden - article content restored 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
106. Sharting - deletion endorsed 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
107. User:Disavian/Userboxes/Green Energy - deletion endorsed, narrowly 17:33, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
108. Left-wing terrorism - article history restored 17:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
109. Stella Maris College Scout Group - deletion endorsed 17:24, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
110. List of Michael Savage neologisms - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
111. Superhorse - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
112. Exicornt - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
113. Image:Lock-icon.jpg - deletion endorsed 17:20, 5 June 2006 (UTC) review
114. College Confidential - article content restored 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
115. Tim Dingle - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
116. Abstract People - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
117. Christian views of Hanukkah - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
118. Claught of a bird dairy products - deletion endorsed 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
119. LIP6 - continue from rewritten version 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
120. Hulk 2 - redirected to Hulk (film) for now 17:59, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
121. Xombie - article content restored 17:34, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
122. Possible wars between liberal democracies speedy-deletion undone by deleting admin. listed to AFD. 13:29, 3 June 2006 (UTC) review
123. Gary Howell deletion endorsed. 20:38, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
124. New Sincerity - deletion endorsed. 20:29, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
125. Successful Praying - speedy deletion as copyvio endorsed. 20:26, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
126. Videohypertransference - user copy granted. deletion from articlespace endorsed. 20:17, 2 June 2006 (UTC) review
127. Oz Categories 8 endorse, 5 overturn, deletion endorsed. 17:57, 1 June 2006 (UTC) Review

Userbox discussions

• Template:User no notability - deletion endorsed, narrowly 18:42, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
• Template:User organ donor template content restored 17:48, 7 June 2006 (UTC) review
• User:CharonX/Userboxes/User christian See WP:TGS
• Template:User satanist kept deleted
• Template:User cannabis kept deleted
• Template:User CCP - kept deleted. 00:41, 7 June 2006 (UTC) Review
• Template:User against fox hunting (result keep deleted, WP:SNOW. Massive endorsement.)

Archives

• Wikipedia:Deletion review/Recently concluded (2006 May)
• Wikipedia:Deletion review/Recently concluded (2006 April)