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July 5

AusPost Visa Load & Go Online Payment?

I know it is possible to use the Load & Go card online but I have a quick question. A particular section for the VISA payment details requires the "Name on card" to be entered. As the Load & Go doesn't come pre-inscribed with your name in the card, would I just enter the name I used to register the card with? Or is the online usage of the Load & Go voided in this situation? Thankyou so much for your help! 220.233.24.164 (talk) 02:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

I found this page: [1]. It says enter "Valued Cardholder" if asked for the name on the card. RudolfRed (talk) 02:35, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Thankyou so much!!!! I really appreciate your answer!!! So just to confirm, in the space provided for the section "Name on card" I simply just type "Valued Cardholder"? 220.233.24.164 (talk) 03:15, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

That's what the page says. I've never tried it. RudolfRed (talk) 03:50, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Can a adult with a disability get legal assitance in Canada for a name change?

I'm a 28 year woman living in BC Canada and I would like to get legal and financial help changing my middle and last name. I have a condition called aspergers and a mental illness hypomania. Can I get Legal and Financial help with this? thanks! Narwhalgal84 (talk) 02:36, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Legal Services Society offers legal aid in BC. Try asking them for help, or for a referral to someone who can help. RudolfRed (talk) 02:42, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Content for wikipedia

Can I add information from text books, encyclopedia? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jacquileen (talk • contribs) 14:31, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, but your should paraphrase, not copy directly. And ideally you should cite your source. --Tagishsimon (talk) 14:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

You can get more info in Wikipedia:FAQ/Copyright#Can I add something to Wikipedia that I got from somewhere else? and Wikipedia:Copyrights. For general info on contributing to Wikipedia, see Wikipedia:Your first article and WP:Tutorial. --Colapeninsula (talk) 14:55, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Air travelling

Is there an official estimate of how many non-unique passengers travelled by air worldwide in a given year (e.g., 2011)? --Theurgist (talk) 17:27, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

If I read that literally, you are asking how many passengers made more than one trip. Is that what you meant? Looie496 (talk) 17:39, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

No. Sorry for not being clear enough. English is not my first language. Feel free to revise my original post any way you like. I mean: a passenger who made one trip counts as one; a passenger who made 15 trips counts as 15; etc. --Theurgist (talk) 17:53, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

("Whether unique or not" would have expressed your meaning clearly, or better yet, how many flights or how many trips. μηδείς (talk) 18:10, 5 July 2012 (UTC))

Do you mean only commercial airlines, or are you including private aircraft, military airplanes, cargo planes, and helicopters ? Also, do you only count passengers, or do the crew count, as well ? StuRat (talk) 18:03, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Are there different official estimates for all that? Ideally, the data should include just everything and everyone. But I guess anything else could do as well. --Theurgist (talk) 18:13, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

If you have a budget for this question, you might want to look at http://www.oagaviation.com/Solutions/Reports-Guides/OAG-FACTS. Whilst some 'executive summaries' of the information are available, most of it seems to come at a cost, and I can't find out what the cost is. I'm guessing if you need to ask you can't afford it. It does seem that this would be a way to get a particularly accurate answer, though. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 20:51, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

To give a vague idea, I'll quote Giovanni Bisignani's (then IATA's CEO) words in 2011: "We are officially announcing our 2010-2014 forecast. According to the industry aggregate forecast, in 2014 3.3 billion people will fly. That is 800 million more travelers than in 2009, when the forecast period started." [2] IATA's 2010-2014 Airline Industry Forecast itself, with presumably quite a bit more detail, doesn't seem to be available for free either. ---Sluzzelin talk 22:54, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

prices at 99

why do prices always ends in 99? instead of $79.99, why dont they just round it off to 80.00? 203.112.82.2 (talk) 23:17, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

See our article on psychological pricing. ---Sluzzelin talk 23:19, 5 July 2012 (UTC)

Lots of prices end in .95 also. The extreme case of this kind of thing would be gas stations, which always have a price ending in 9/10 of one cent, regardless of the rest of the price. So you might buy 10 gallons at 3 dollars and 51 and 9/10 cents, hence you pay 35 dollars and 19 cents, rather than 35 dollars and 20 cents. What a deal! :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:16, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I've got gas to sell you at 3.519̇ Fifelfoo (talk) 02:28, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

If you drop it to 3.14159, I've got a pie for you. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 03:08, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

That would go on forever. Itsmejudith (talk) 07:23, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

This is plain stupid, because it obviously doesn't work: everyone rounds up in their heads anyway. 109.97.175.158 (talk) 09:29, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

If you read Sluzzelin's link, you'll find it's not stupid, plain or otherwise, it does work, and people don't behave as you think they do. --Dweller (talk) 10:24, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

From what I gather, it's based on unverified assumptions and the research on the actual effect is inconclusive. 109.97.175.158 (talk) 12:29, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm told by a friend who specialises in fraud that there's also a drive towards awkward-but-large price endings by large companies worried about cash till fraud committed by employees in parts of businesses that largely revolve around cash/small-change. It's harder for staff to do the mental arithmetic required to commit fraud and still balance the till, if prices end in things like .78, .92 and .83 than .00 or even a uniform .99. --Dweller (talk) 10:24, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Slightly tangental, but according a former department store manager of my acquaintance, the reason why an item is discounted (damaged, returned, discontinued, etc) is encoded in the last digit of the discount price. FiggyBee (talk) 08:58, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

The explanation I've heard along those lines is that the .99's mean you have to give change, so you have to put it through the till. If prices ended in .00 then people would often pay exact change and the cashier could just pocket it. There would be stock missing, but they would have no idea who was responsible. (The main reason is the psychological pricing Sluzzelin linked to, though.) --Tango (talk) 11:12, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

That wouldn't work in America, because the sales tax on a 99 cent item will push the cost up to about 1 dollar and 5 cents. I don't know about regular retail, but in fast food joints they have or had a standard practice of whoever runs the register would be told to pocket a few dollars at the start of the shift, and at the end of the shift, when it's reconciled, the cashier returns the difference in the till - which might or might not be exactly what they pocketed earlier. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:25, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Why ? StuRat (talk) 14:46, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I'll second this question. I've never heard of that. I've worked retail (not fast food) and we never did anything like that. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:06, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

In my state (Michigan), there's no sales tax on food items, unless "prepared for immediate consumption". StuRat (talk) 14:46, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Prices also occasionally act as signifiers for cashiers or store employees, for example, a price ending in .97 might indicate that the product has been discontinued and not to order more. Alternatively, it could mean that the product is not eligible for quantity discounts, or could relate to some other supply issue. I once worked at a store that regularly priced items at .93, because with tax this would round out to an even dollar amount. Alternatively, it could have to do with retaining an exact profit margin. eldamorie (talk) 16:23, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Sorry, not wanting at all to to hijack the thread, but can I just ask - do Bugs's and Eldamorie's comments mean then that in the US, or some parts of the US, the price displayed on the item or shelf is not the price you actually pay, because sales tax will be added on at the till (register)? - Karenjc 20:59, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, that is almost always the case in the U.S. -except for gasoline and maybe tobacco. Rmhermen (talk) 21:29, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, you learn something new every day. Thank you for the info :) - Karenjc 21:38, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

That would be totally forbidden in The Netherlands, except for B2B sales. More on topic, adding no new information at all, it's amazing that are many more reasons imaginable besides .99 sounding a lot cheaper than 1.00. Though I tend to go with that one. I would however, also expect "reverse psychological pricing". If I had the money (...) I feel that I'd buy a house at an "honest price" of $ 1,008,000 sooner than exactly the same house at $ 999,999. "You aint fooling me this time, this is a house, not a candybar so I have thought about this.". (funny, your question is immediately generalized here) Joepnl (talk) 21:56, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

UK too - B2B sales are quoted ex-VAT but displayed retail sale prices must be the price you actually pay, hence my question. The .99 (or .95) phenomenon is almost universal here and is usually anecdotally attributed to psychological pricing. Although we also have the pound shop, which also has connotations of good value. Karenjc 22:53, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

It is highly unusual for posted American prices (except in a few situations) to include sales tax. Occasionally you find restaurants than do that, and make a big deal about how their $5 whatever is "really" $5 because tax is included. But it's very rare. But everyone knows there is a tax, so it's not a surprise — though it can add up on big ticket items. Many states have sales tax holidays where people buy televisions and things like that. (I'm not sure whether the holidays apply to buying cars; those taxes add up to enough that in some regions, people make conscious choices about which states they buy them from.) --Mr.98 (talk) 16:09, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Psychological pricing is the main reason. I have done mail order sales with offers made at different prices and the $99 offers did much better than the $100 offers. μηδείς (talk) 20:54, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

As the psychological pricing article points out, part of the reason this continues is probably simply that consumers are used to it. People are accustomed to large retailers being more likely to use .99 prices, so it gives a kind of air of professionalism. I think it's interesting looking at the various pricing structures used by variety stores around the world. There have been 99 cent stores in the US, 300 escudo shops in Portugal, 36 ruble shops in Russia, and 1.99 real shops in Brazil. Oddly enough, the article explains that there are no "100-dollar stores" for reasons of pricing efficiency, but at the end mentions a "100 pound shop" in London, though it appears to be a kind of cross between a shop and an art installation. 81.98.43.107 (talk) 14:21, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

July 6

Doctor's office credit card billing

Not sure if it makes sense to ask this here, but I'm hoping for help. Is it non-scammy for a doctor's office to require credit card information before letting you in to see the doctor, and then telling you they're going to bill the insurance company and then charge your credit card automatically? Is this something I can trust? A one page pdf by way of explanation is here: http://www.wilshireaesthetics.com/images/Forms%20used%20by%20Practice/Insurance%20Copays,%20CoInsurance.pdf I've never heard of anyone doing this, and I'm slightly wary. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.151.147.239 (talk) 06:31, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

That's not uncommon, but use your best judgment. It's up to you to trust them or not. RudolfRed (talk) 06:44, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Gotcha. I guess I'll decide when I go in. Didn't know it was something that was done. Anyone else with relevant perspectives, please contribute. :-) Thanks! 98.151.147.239 (talk) 06:49, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

'Not uncommon' where? This is an international project, and a significant proportion of both contributors and readers may come from places where "a doctor's office [requiring] credit card information" is more or less unknown - and since we give neither legal nor medical advice, per policy, we shouldn't be doing both at the same time. If you want advice on such matters, this isn't an appropriate place to ask. And it isn't an appropriate place to offer it. AndyTheGrump (talk) 06:58, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I think it's reasonable to assume that the OP is asking about the place of the clinic in question. It would be rather silly for them to be asking about whether the policies of a clinic in Los Angeles are common in, say, Wales — it's not an impossible question, but one would expect them to make it clear if that were the case. And it's not legal or medical advice that is solicited; it's a question about whether a given business practice is a red flag or not for the operations of the business. One does not need to be a doctor or a lawyer to know these sorts of things. --Mr.98 (talk) 12:05, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd be rather wary of such an office. They've taken away your right to decide what you will and won't pay for. If you are billed for items or services you did not receive, you can no longer refuse to pay, you have to convince your credit card company to give the money back. Good luck with that. StuRat (talk) 07:35, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Credit card companies are usually pretty good about that (at least in the UK). It's not unusual to give credit card details in advance as security, although I'm used to doing it with hotels rather than doctors - in the civilised world, doctors are free at the point of use! ;) --Tango (talk) 11:08, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

They're not "free", they're paid for by your higher-than-the-US's taxation. As regards the credit card thing, I've never seen that done in the US. If they try to pull that stunt, find another doctor. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:21, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

That's what 'free at the point of use' means. Try reading for comprehension. But then I suppose the disproportionately large US military is 'free at the point of use' too. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:30, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Let's stop this little tiff right here. It's not the place for it. Stick to the question. Mingmingla (talk) 17:00, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

The nanny speaketh. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:15, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

• It strikes me as a good idea. If you can't trust your doctor's office with this arrangement, do you think you should trust them with your health? --jpgordon^{::==( o )} 18:22, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Interesting that you say that. In the US, many citizens inherently distrust government, yet are perfectly willing to entrust them with their Social Security and healthcare... 128.227.41.167 (talk) 19:04, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, it's a matter of which parts of the government different people distrust, and with what duties. The United States isn't a monolith. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:05, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Not a forum, folks. Stick to the question. Mingmingla (talk) 22:42, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

The nanny speaketh again. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:15, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

One can certainly imagine a practice being difference in its financial trust versus its actual personal care to the patient. One can also imagine finding its financial practices worrisome enough not to trust them with medical issues, either. This reasoning doesn't get you to an answer here. If I put out a shingle that said, "amputations $500, no questions asked" you might find my business model alone enough to make you distrust the quality of my medical care. --Mr.98 (talk) 16:04, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

There was a recent exposé on dental chains which prey on the elderly, by getting them to agree to high interest loans to pay for unneeded work, with the interest accruing from when they agree, not when they start their dental work. So, in this case, the companies are shady both from a medical and financial perspective. StuRat (talk) 05:15, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Mercury City Tower

Can anyone tell me if the Mercury City Tower, and the Vostok Tower mentioned in this article are one and the same. I note different heights are given for Mercury and Vostok, so perhaps not. We don't presently appear to have an article about Vostok Tower so maybe it is called something else. Cheers Paul MacDermott (talk) 11:55, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Federation Tower, specifically the East tower thereof (Vostok is Russian for East). FiggyBee (talk) 12:07, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll create a redirect. Paul MacDermott (talk) 16:44, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Hot water heaters -- when do they realize they should stop?

Would anyone know offhand how long a contemporary, typical hot water heater would go, when no hot water is being used, before scaling back its operations or turning off entirely? Vranak (talk) 19:29, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

My guess (just a guess) would be a built in thermometer and pressure gauge, that starts up when it's below a certain amount and stops when it's above a certain amount. Ian.thomson (talk) 19:40, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

For sure, but I'm interested in knowing what that 'certain amount' would correspond to in chronological terms. Like if you went on a 2-month vacation, how much gas would it waste heating up water that no one ever used? Wild guesses encouraged if experienced ones aren't available. Vranak (talk) 19:45, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Why do you want to leave it on whilst going on vacation? If its to stop freezing, then frost protection heaters would be cheaper – (or change the date of your vacations).--Aspro (talk) 19:49, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Depends on the thermostatic control and the amount of water in the circuit. In large house it might go on longer due to the longer pipe runs than in a small dwelling. Weather the pipes are lagged or not would also effect it.--Aspro (talk) 19:44, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Every water heater I have seen has a vacation setting on the temperature dial. Rmhermen (talk) 20:36, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

It depends on so many factors. The ambient temperature. The temperature the water is set to heat to. How well insulated the tank is. I assume you mean an electric immersion heater and you are in the USA. If not, there is more you need to tell us. Itsmejudith (talk) 21:21, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Most hot water heaters will just go on maintaining the water at whatever temperature you've set, indefinitely. There's no reason (or for most controls, no means) to have it do anything differently than it's designed to do, short of setting it to "vacation." In vacation mode it'll just run indefinitely at a lower temperature. It's possible that a high-end unit will have a fall-back program, but that would be specific to the manufacturer. Acroterion (talk) 21:37, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I wonder if any programmable thermostats exist for water heaters, similar to for furnaces and A/C. Might be useful, as it could just make warm water most of the day, but make it hot when everyone takes their baths/showers. StuRat (talk) 02:28, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

A better system is 'instant' hot water heaters. Smaller reservoir and higher wattage I think. It would be easy to rig any timer to an electric tank power supply and probably to the control circuit on gas ones as well. The electric one would need a 'contactor control' because most are 240 volts and 20 amps = 4800 watts. Timers are usually 'control power' 120 volts and far less wattage. Most electric hot water heaters have two elements and thermostats. The top element and stat keep the top 1/4 tank or so warm and in high demand the bottom ones kick in. I know they are set different and if you get the top and bottom settings backwards it really messes up the efficiency. I think I remember them as being opposite of position though. This means the top is set to a lower temperature than the bottom. I could be wrong. If you take off the top and bottom covers you can see the difference. Turn the breaker off first though because the 240V wires are very tight and close to the stats.--Canoe1967 (talk) 18:01, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

In comparison with a natural gas water heater, the (≈3x) cost of electricity makes switching to an electrical water heater a bad idea, whether full-time or on-demand. Also, many homes will lack the electrical wiring and capacity to support them (4800 watts is probably more than my entire house uses, and certainly more than any one circuit could handle). StuRat (talk) 05:00, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I agree it is not worth switching to electric. Instant hot water heaters come in both, I think. I expanded the article Hot_water_storage_tank#Dual_element_electric. If I remember right each element is 2500-3000 watts but they have 'sequence switching' so that only one turns on at a time. The breaker and wire are sized to higher wattages though and any timer used has to match that.--Canoe1967 (talk) 21:56, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

• http://waterheatertimer.org/index.html seems you can get timers for them.
• http://www.globalelectricalsupply.com/Tork-1104-NC-Same-Day-ON-OFF-24-hr-Time-Switch-p/1104-nc.htm?Click=774&gclid=CLzM_NbLiLECFSQbQgodVWOUTw a low cost electric one. Mechanical means it is cheaper, reliable, and easy to program.--Canoe1967 (talk) 22:38, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

What is the name for a multi-faith temple on a ship?

There is a one-word term for a multi-denominational prayer room on a ship. Do hospitals use the same word for their chapels? 75.166.192.187 (talk) 21:13, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Interfaith refers to dialogue between diverse religions. Ecumenical refers to unity among Christian churches. Is either of these the word you want? DriveByWire (talk) 21:22, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I was mistaken: there is not a one word term for this. I was looking for something like "interfaith chapel cabin" (picture example.) 75.166.192.187 (talk) 23:38, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

I'd just call it a chapel, and would assume that "ecumenical" is understood unless otherwise specified. Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 23:58, 6 July 2012 (UTC)

There is an article about St. George's Interdenominational Chapel, Heathrow Airport. DriveByWire (talk) 00:56, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I seem to remember that one of my former employers offered the use of a "multi-faith prayer room", but only ever called it that. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:57, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

"Faith Centre" or "Multi-Faith Centre" gets a lot of Google hits. Alansplodge (talk) 01:05, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

The hospice where I volunteer calls it a "sanctuary". It's available for use by those of all religions and none as a quiet space. --TammyMoet (talk) 07:55, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you very much. 71.212.249.178 (talk) 06:54, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

July 7

Gasoline prices

Is there a standard or preferred method for writing gasoline prices in the United States, specifically because of the fractional cents that are used? (I never understood that, and our article on gasoline and diesel usage and pricing does not explain it.) Anyway, I know that $3.269 is technically correct, but to many people, three digits after a decimal point in money confuses them. I have also seen it written as $3.26.9, $3.26⁹ and $3.269⁄10. Are these incorrect? Or is it just a matter of style and taste? (And out of curiosity, do other countries use fractional secondary currency units in a similar manner?)    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 00:54, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

In the UK, fuel prices are, for example, 1.82 (UK pounds!) per litre(!) - I have never seen a smaller fraction of price specified. --Demiurge1000 (talk) 01:00, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't know what part of the UK Demiurge1000 lives in, but here in England (between us, Alan & I probably cover most of it) I've never seen tenths of a penny not advertised in recent years (though I can remember when petrol was pre-decimal 3/6 per gallon [17½ pence]) Dbfirs 08:26, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmmm... the usual British notation would be "181.9p per litre" (p = pence).[3] [4] [5] [6] [7] I have no idea why they do that - it's really annoying. Actually, current UK fuel prices are around 132p for unleaded petrol (gasoline) and 137p for diesel fuel.[8]. GBP 1.32 per litre equals GBP 5.00 per US gallon (or USD 7.77) by my calculation. Alansplodge (talk) 01:14, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

My nearest Asda's petrol station (Hampshire, England) has for some time been advertising prices along the lines of 132.7p/litre – works out to about 8p or 0.6 mile's worth saved on a full tank, so I don't think it's worth going out of your way to fill up there, but it may enable them to top any survey of cheapest local prices. {The poster formerly known as 87.81.230.195} — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.21.143.150 (talk) 12:18, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

That would be like writing 326.9¢ in the U.S. Very strange.    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 02:04, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

This is exactly how we do it in Canada. Mingmingla (talk) 02:26, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Google image [gasoline price signs] and you will see the most common usages in America. One is a little 9 superscript, the other is a little 9 over a little 10. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:18, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

The mill is the smallest unit of US currency. μηδείς (talk) 02:20, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Contrary to what Mingmingla says above, I've never seen a gas price sign in Canada written with a ¢ sign. My local station writes 124.9, which is to be read as $1.249 per litre. In older stations, that never expected the price to go into 5 spaces, it sometimes reads "24.9" from which you are expected to assume that the $1 at the front is missing. (Actually, I shouldn't say I have never seen a ¢ sign, because I can remember when gas was less than a dollar a gallon -and also less than a dollar a litre- at the pumps.) Bielle (talk) 02:58, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Well to be fair Mingmingla isn't wrong - The ¢ isn't explicitly written on the sign but it's implied. 124.9 IS 124.9 cent, but we just automatically convert (both in our heads and at the actual pump) that into $1.249 per litre. Example image in this article. Royor (talk) 04:15, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

That is what I meant. There is no ¢, but it is implied. I won't speak to how it's "meant" to be read, though, since it is measured in cents, not dollars. When they say 137.9 (as it was this morning on my way to work), they say it in cents. Mingmingla (talk) 17:49, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

These are good as signs, but how is it done in print?    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 15:28, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

This article has a photo with the standard station format, but the article does it in dollars: Gas Prices — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mingmingla (talk • contribs) 17:52, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

It's not just gas/diesel but all fuel prices. I have a bunch of fuel prices that include AVGAS and Jet A and they are the same. Heating fuel is even more exact as it's $1.1595 a L and not all of them end in a 9. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 17:08, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

It seems that by convention, any seller can price his product however he wants providing that it is sold in the local approved units (gallons/litres/kilograms/etc.). A point about petrochemical fuel is that it is bought in bulk by weight (or units of mass for the pedantic). The reason being: It has a high coefficient of thermal expansion. Therefore, if one is buying a 10,000 gallon consignment, one could be many gallons down according to the temperature. So... When John Doe converts his fuel by weight price, into fuel by volume-pump-price it is almost impossible to achieve a perfect fraction. Added to that is that, the tax man wants to see records of exactly what has been sold vis. that has be lost through evaporation (some gas stations now have equipment to recover this evaporate). Therefore, I say blame the tax man for these fractions. --Aspro (talk) 18:02, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

This seems far-fetched to me. If the fractions were caused by tax, the thousandths digit would vary, not be constantly 9. It seems to me much more likely that this is a parallel with goods being priced at £n.99: it looks slightly cheaper than it is. Marnanel (talk) 19:34, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Disagree: The 9 results from rounding up the last significant figure To the point that it does not effect the second to last significant figure. The £n.99 is not rounding down. If you look at the wholesale price plus retailers profit margin the actual goods would often be priced at several pence less than £n.99. It is a lure to get customers into the shop who will then go onto buy other items that are a few pence more than can be bought in the retail outlet next-door. Take a little note book around and check the prices. Is £n.99 really cheaper than £n.42 ? Those half pounds quickly add up. Hope your wife does the shopping in your house :¬)--Aspro (talk) 21:24, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Lost me there. Where does £n.42 enter into it? Alansplodge (talk) 00:51, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

In other words, lots of things offered at 99c in the 99c Store are available for less than half that elsewhere. Although the 99c Store on 221st between Broadway and Vermilyea offers canned corned beef at 99c which I have seen regularly go for $4.98 elsewhere. Great deals on sardines and other canned meats as well. μηδείς (talk) 20:40, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

corbett natoinal park

i want preservatoin methods of jim corbett natoinal park — Preceding unsigned comment added by Pragyamohan (talk • contribs) 07:27, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

The Jim Corbett National Park has its own website which has a section about the management and conservation work which you can see here. Richard Avery (talk) 07:53, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Universities whose entrance exams may only be taken once

So the entrance exam of the University of the Philippines can apparently only be taken once, which means if you fail, you will not be allowed to take it again. To my knowledge, it is the only university in the Philippines or possibly even Asia to have such a policy – the entrance exams of the University of Santo Tomas, Ateneo de Manila University, De La Salle University etc. can be taken multiple times if you fail. Even Tokyo University's notoriously difficult entrance exam can at least be re-taken multiple times (this can be seen in the manga Love Hina). Aside from UP, which other universities around the world have such a policy? And if so, what are the possible reasons as to why they have such a policy? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 14:52, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Ivy league colleges almost work this way: either you enter freshly out of high-school or you do not enter at all in their bachelor programs. OsmanRF34 (talk) 19:07, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Really? http://www.admissions.college.harvard.edu/apply/transfer/index.html http://admissions.yale.edu/eli-whitney Nricardo (talk) 02:08, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's really like that: note that I said almost and the articles that you linked to confirm what I said: Harvard: "The Committee admits a small number of transfer students who present a clearly defined academic need for transfer." Yale: "Admission to the EWSP is highly competitive, and there are only 20 to 30 Whitney students among the 5,200 Yale undergraduates." Most people entering the bachelor program enter directly from high school. You just get one chance and not through an exam. OsmanRF34 (talk) 11:25, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Perhaps it would be helpful to establish which universities actually have entrance exams since many do not relying generally on secondary school qualifications or similar. Nil Einne (talk) 19:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Debate

Besides God's existence, is there any other topic that has arguments thats as big? sorry for wrong grammar. 203.112.82.129 (talk) 21:04, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

To my mind: It is the question that asks is there intelligent life to be found on Earth.--Aspro (talk) 21:28, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

What do women want? Is there life after marriage? Is the Pope a Catholic? Why is there only one Monopoly Commission? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 21:58, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Monopoly Commission? What rock have you been hiding under these last n years (for n put in what ever number you feel you can admit to). That went long ago. The answer to the first question is obvious if one has ever come into a lot of money due to an inheritance and then noticed the sudden (and suffocatingly uncomfortable) interest taken in oneself (joking of course - honestly). Discovering the answer to the second question can be mitigated by insisting on a v-e-r-y l-o-n-g engagement. It is a win-win situation -as it works both ways. After all, the longer you put it off, the richer you'll be by the time you marry her. --Aspro (talk) 23:15, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Her? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 07:34, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Is abortion acceptable? Are using contraceptives abortion? Is divorce acceptable? Do aliens exist? Is communism good or bad? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 22:28, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

Seconded on communism, as it's very much a debate of ideology.--WaltCip (talk) 23:18, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

'Communism is simply the exploitation of man by man; whilst Capitalism is the exact opposite.' No debate no argument!--Aspro (talk) 23:34, 7 July 2012 (UTC)

There's always the Ultimate Question. - Karenjc 00:38, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

The above are all rather easy questions. The two that puzzle me are, Why is gravitic mass the same as inertial mass? and, What is the underlying nature of qualia? μηδείς (talk) 01:24, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Those are good. How about the correct characterization of the greatest good for the greatest number and the extent to which such a pseudo-utopia can be achieved through communication? 71.212.249.178 (talk) 07:19, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

What is the air speed velocity of an unladen swallow? Adam Bishop (talk) 07:08, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Forty-two, of course! Dominus Vobisdu (talk) 17:35, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Resolved

Mac vs. PC [/late to the party] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.23.42.0 (talk) 20:17, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

The Big One: Is there life after death? DOR (HK) (talk) 08:07, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Will the Chicago Cubs ever be in a World Series again? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:07, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

July 8

Colusa Ca Population

2010The 2010 United States Census[3] reported that Colusa had a population of 5,971. The population density was 3,255.3 people per square mile (1,256.9/km²). The racial makeup of Colusa was 3,944 (66.1%) White, 54 (0.9%) African American, 107 (1.8%) Native American, 80 (1.3%) Asian, 28 (0.5%) Pacific Islander, 1,510 (25.3%) from other races, and 248 (4.2%) from two or more races. Hispanic or Latino of any race were 3,128 persons (52.4%).

152%  ?? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.203.131.226 (talk) 01:34, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I followed the link to the government census page and the numbers don't match what's in the article. It says the total population was 21,419, for one thing. 13,854 (64.7%) white, 195 (0.9%) black, etc. User:Carlossuarez46 added the info; maybe he's using a different definition than what we think he is. Why not drop him a note on his talk page? Incidentally, the talk page of the article is usually the best place to bring these types of concerns. Matt Deres (talk) 03:03, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Hmm, I think my numbers are for the county rather than the city (county seat). The numbers are still off. Here's the numbers for the city:

RACE Total population 5,971 100.0 One Race 5,723 95.8 White 3,944 66.1 Black or African American 54 0.9 American Indian and Alaska Native 107 1.8 Asian 80 1.3 Asian Indian 27 0.5 Chinese 12 0.2 Filipino 18 0.3 Japanese 10 0.2 Korean 3 0.1 Vietnamese 4 0.1 Other Asian [1] 6 0.1 Native Hawaiian and Other Pacific Islander 28 0.5 Native Hawaiian 3 0.1 Guamanian or Chamorro 2 0.0 Samoan 0 0.0 Other Pacific Islander [2] 23 0.4 Some Other Race 1,510 25.3 Two or More Races 248 4.2 White; American Indian and Alaska Native [3] 47 0.8 White; Asian [3] 18 0.3 White; Black or African American [3] 10 0.2 White; Some Other Race [3] 116 1.9 The number of Pacific Islanders is way out of whack. Perhaps others are as well. Matt Deres (talk) 03:09, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, the numbers on race add up to 100% (or perhaps slightly more, due to rounding). The "52.4% Hispanic," however, is not factored into that, since the U.S. Census Bureau regards Hispanic as a national origin not a race. To wit, they may be of any race. Pine (talk) 05:43, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, and believe it or not, there are even Asian Hispanics. StuRat (talk) 09:22, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Creating a graphic image of a military unit

I'd like to create the shoulder sleeve insignia for the 30th ADA Brigade, as none exists. How do I get started?--Shovonma17 (talk) 04:19, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Brainstorm some ideas for what they might like in it. Do they have a motto or a nickname ? Where did they see action ? Maybe those might give you an idea. Then I'd sketch it out, and finally draw it on the computer. StuRat (talk) 04:35, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

If this is their website: [9], I see several symbols used there, like the fleur-de-lis, symbolizing service in France, and arrows, symbolizing their motto "Always on target". Other symbols are a lion rampant and lightning bolts. Perhaps you could expand on the "Always on target" motto by having an arrow hitting a bull's eye on a target ? StuRat (talk) 04:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

The three arrows on the red background is the shoulder sleeve insignia. [10] I suspect the question is actually "how do I create an svg version of this insignia for use on Wikipedia", rather than "how do I invent a new insignia". Shovonma, try WP:Graphics. FiggyBee (talk) 08:44, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

If so, I'd start by doing a screen grab of the image here: [11]. And it doesn't have to be an SVG image, as Wikipedia accepts many formats, such as GIF and JPEG. StuRat (talk) 09:16, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

25th K.R.V Band

My husband's Great Grandfather was presented an ebony band master's baton in 1876, the inscription on the baton reads:- 'Presented by the 25th K.R.V Band to Mr.E.Sayers, 27th May 1876'. The accompanying letter shows Mr.E.Sayers' address as 3, Gibson Street, East Greenwich, London. We know that this was his address and that he was a musician, from the 1881 Census return. What we don't know is, who or what were the 25th K.R.V Band and why he received the baton. Was it a military band? Thanks for your help. P.Sayers. Patsayers (talk) 06:59, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Greetings Pat, I think your husband's great grandfather may have been part of the Kent Rifle Volunteer Corps, I have no knowledge of them but the letters and dates fit very nicely if you check this site. His particular corp isn't listed there but it looks like a good place to start. Good luck. Richard Avery (talk) 07:18, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

See Volunteer Force (Great Britain) for some general context. Alansplodge (talk) 12:01, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Some more information about the Kent Rifle Volunteer Corps in this forum. Alansplodge (talk) 01:20, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

ENGINEERING COLLEGES

PLEASE tell me how to know the top ten engineering colleges with mechanical as the branch in karnataka — Preceding unsigned comment added by Vijay ssbj (talk • contribs) 09:07, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I Googled "top 10 karnataka engineering colleges mechanical" and found several sites offering rankings based on a variety of criteria. This could be a good first step for you. - Karenjc 21:18, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Bikini vs. underwear

Tipical summer question here. Why seeing a women in her underwear is more "naughty" than seeing the same wome in bikini when both cover the same. By the way, I have googled it and all comentary about the question makes it look like that this is just a woman concern. I, for one, feel more aroused seeing a woman in underwear than in bikini, even if I couldn´t explain why (although to be fair I have only seen one friend in both bikini and underwear, without, ahem, getting any action)

Well I´m interested to know if the deskers can answer this riddle of the ages.85.55.202.61 (talk) 11:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Does it have to do with the fact that there are time that it is perfectly acceptable to wear a bikini in public (like in the beach) because it's the suitable attire, while only wearing underwear in public is frowned upon? Narutolovehinata5 ^tccsdnew 12:47, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Exactly. Undewear is not meant to be seen by anyone except the wearer (and her significant other, if she has one). --Viennese Waltz 13:31, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

It's the cultural context. Since underwear are defined as naughty, we view them that way. The same is true of bare breasts, which are seen as ho-hum in some cultures. In some Islamic cultures, a woman's face is seen as "naughty", so needs to be hidden from unrelated males. In Victorian times, a woman's ankles were considered naughty, and thus men would get aroused when they saw them. StuRat (talk) 17:13, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

I think that more than half of the young women here in Romania go topless at the beach, but they wouldn't show off their bare breasts in any other situation in public... 109.97.188.181 (talk) 17:33, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

There's also "situational normality". For example, men who might be comfortable naked or showering together in a locker room wouldn't normally choose to shower together at home. StuRat (talk) 20:41, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

However, note that a bikini may be made out of thicker fabric, designed to hide the vulva, especially when wet, and may have padding in that specific area, while underwear may not, since they figure the clothes worn over them will serve that purpose. StuRat (talk) 17:20, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Underwear is known by everyone to serve several absorption functions (go click it!) over time that a bikini displayed for a few sunny hours is neither expected to do, nor to remind the viewer of. DriveByWire (talk) 23:06, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Who was it that made the joke about people who live in those african tribes where people barely wear a loin cloth and a nose ring? A night out at the strippers would include a lady getting on stage and removing her nose ring, to the braying of the male crowd: "Whoa! Check out the top lip on that one!".. Vespine (talk) 02:09, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Old telephone box, UK

What were button A and button B for? Kittybrewster ☎ 13:04, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

You had to put your coin in before you dialled the number. If the person answered, you pressed button A to speak. If there was no answer, you pressed button B and you got your coin back. --Viennese Waltz 13:34, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

And they didn't think to label them "talk" and "refund" ? (The labels could point to the buttons, if not enough room to write that on the buttons directly.) StuRat (talk) 17:07, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Here is what Kittybrewster is talking about. I never met anyone who couldn't understand the button A and button B system. Like making jam sandwiches or a cup of tea, when you've seen it done once you can repeat the procedure Richard Avery (talk) 18:44, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Why should they waste money on superfluous letters, when A and B would work perfectly well? Don't you know there's a war on? Or there was when this machine was designed (I think)... --TammyMoet (talk) 18:51, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

The instructions were normally written on a sheet attached to the wooden wallboard, and as the phones were exported to non-English speaking countries and as phone call charges went up, the instructions could be easily localized and altered. I used those phones as a youngster in the 1970s and while I needed to stand on something to reach the phone (really), they just didn't need complicated instructions. They were being phased out in Ireland in public phone boxes by the late 1970s, but I remember seeing them well into the 80s still in use in hotels and pubs in places off the beaten track. Now off to quietly have a mid-life crisis FlowerpotmaN·(t) 19:49, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

A million schoolboys with excess time and optimism pushed that "B" button a million times in the hope that a previous caller might have forgotten some money in the box. Once would be enough and the button was slow to return. Little Britain's Las Vegas. DriveByWire (talk) 22:53, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Thank you. I remember my father answering the telephone and saying "press button A". Kittybrewster ☎ 23:13, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Well, that explains all the calls I made in London where someone answered and then couldn't seem to hear me. And all the coins I lost, too. "Furriners" are not likely to know this system; I have never come across it anywhere else, and certainly not in North America. The phone booths I was using had no instructions. You can't learn by watching once if you have never had an opportunity to watch. Bielle (talk)

Isn't half the fun of travel all about experiencing unexpected and baffling practices? -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 00:42, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

We're talking about a long time ago though. They had already gone from London in my 1960s childhood, but I found one in rural Wales on a school trip in 1971 and the nice operator lady told me which button to press. Alansplodge (talk) 01:05, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I last made a call from one in 1987 in a telephone box on a minor road to Farr near Bettyhill, which is about as out of the way as it gets in the UK - I hadn't used one for at least 20 years at the time. Mikenorton (talk) 21:11, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

There's a picture of one here and here. Alansplodge (talk) 01:32, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

And more information here. Apparently there were 20,000 of them in Australia too. Introduced in 1925, it was replaced by the "Coin Telephone No.1" in 1966 (told you so!). Alansplodge (talk) 01:37, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Oh yes, I remember them well. I'd have said they lingered some time past 1966, but don't hold me to that. (1966 was an excellent year for Wikipedia, btw.) -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ ^{[your turn]} 01:47, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

It's not too late to rescue an old telephone box. They were warm refuges on windy days and little islands of light in remote locations at night. I think they used a special lamp bulb to discourage theft. The pictures don't show the telephone directories that hung beside the money box. The money box was robust against vandals, but the handset cord and occasionally one of the many window panes were vulnerable to their malicious attention. Boxes often smelled of urine and/or the previous caller. DriveByWire (talk) 14:10, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

My "Engology" entry has been deleted. Why?

Why has me "Engology" entry been deleted??? Fintan Lynch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Engology (talk • contribs) 16:50, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Your article was speedy deleted and made into a redirect to engineering technology. Here's the final state of your article prior to deletion: [12]. The notice at the top explains the reasoning. Here's the edit history for the article: [13]. StuRat (talk) 17:01, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

The article was not deleted, only redirected. You can see why by looking at this older version, dating to June 21. Basically the complaint was that no evidence was provided that the term is actually used by anybody in a notable way. Looie496 (talk) 17:04, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Quick fix for error on Millikan High School

The wiki for Millikan High School in Long Beach, CA has the correct information in body, but not at the top where the location is listed as a hot link right under the title. I don't know how to correct this and don't want to learn wiki language for this. I tried to edit, but I don't see where this link can be edited online.

The body of the article states Long Beach, CA, which is correct, but the link immediately under the title states Longbeach, Florida which is INCORRECT.

http://www.facebook.com/pages/RA-Millikan/106200209418819#!/pages/Millikan-High-School/112125525467170?sk=wiki — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.251.113.70 (talk) 19:03, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

We have no control over how Facebook reuses our content. Our article on Millikan High School has it in the correct location; Facebook's confusion of Long Beach, California, with a town in Florida is their error. You'll need to contact Facebook to see if you can get them to fix the error. Deor (talk) 19:55, 8 July 2012 (UTC)

Ooh Wiki - Ms. Bright Sondia that is is back hopefully in business

Not a request Wikipedia editors can help with
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
July 8 2012 Dear Wikipedia Management and Technology Department, Good Afternoon and I pray that where ever you all are - things are going to look great, grand, and gracious this end of fiscal year; plus a travel to some place in Slovakia for a new role of Global Knowledge. Question A1: How can I purchase Wiki Leaks and can you find the owner if he is still not in jail? Question B2: Is it possible to derive a code from C++ or D-programming which is a decoder to stop Tagging, Misconception of Password Cracker, and get Amazon back on my side for technology books that are reasonable and not too costly.. Yes I did apply for a position but did not here back from them. I have a new account with hotmail now so comcast.net is not around. If you would like to take my position as Board of Trustees Member just ask them. All my emails were confiscated not by me but hackers which were not Ethical. Military - www.wikipedia.gov have you thought about that? Question C3: Is Google online for www.google.mil or better yet investment with me on Throat Surgery and Technology for Better Hearing Aids for the Deaf and Mute? Question D4: My Coding Strategy only given to you with patent and intellectual property rights. Begin; If 0:00 = Batchfile for recievalbes; Then Balance AND "(,)" OR "(,)" NOR petty cash = "($)" 10"(,)"000.00 on United States Market; VAR = VAT #Virtual or Value Added Tax# "(=)" .21 "(%)"; #percent# INT = Total Quotient; INT = Total Exponent; INT = VAT; END; A McDonalds Code - Interview hopefully Tuesday in town here - Maryland now. How does it fit in? My persistence to learn another language in coding and foreign for investments outside of Intellectual Property based on Technology Stocks for DNA Sequencing in Pharmaceuticals and Wikipedia Notations on Information on Research and Development. Me. yes now Bipolar after I left in 2000. L4 needs to be taken out I believe. Take Care and Good luck - use my email or call I can't give that out but it's prepaid. Sondia Remmielehkun Bright (Naomi Orion Justine Eastman Carrington) the real name. (Shh) Ha aha I don't know how secret but it's time for revealing. Any Auctions. Get me back or help me save my back. (:-p) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Sbright426 (talk • contribs) 20:38, 8 July 2012 (UTC) Wow. 109.97.188.181 (talk) 21:26, 8 July 2012 (UTC) I would hat this, but someone might think I was joking, or insist it wasn't a request for medical advice. Then there would be at least three new threads triggered.... μηδείς (talk) 21:34, 8 July 2012 (UTC) Medical? He mentions 'jail'. So shouldn't that be - not asking legal advice? --Aspro (talk) 22:47, 8 July 2012 (UTC) As in mental health. μηδείς (talk) 00:19, 9 July 2012 (UTC) On seconds thoughts... maybe it's his homework questions. I once had a tutor that set these sort of mind expanding problems. --Aspro (talk) 22:54, 8 July 2012 (UTC) The answer to these, and all your future questions, can be found at http://www.timecube.com. StuRat (talk) 23:26, 8 July 2012 (UTC) Wow, he really does go on and on and on, doesn't he. Like the peace of God, he "passeth all understanding". -- ♬ Jack of Oz ♬ [your turn] 00:16, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

There is a page for DYK blurbs that get a record number of hits. Is there some sort of similar BotRD page we can archive this question to? μηδείς (talk) 04:49, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

July 9

Reasonable or fallacious (and if the latter, what's the name of the formal fallacy?)

To assume, if not definitely, then almost certainly, if an idea pops into your head, that if it were a good or really valuable and workable idea, someone else has already or would already do it, and therefore pursue it no further. Statistically, this seems like a very sound assumption that would save the vast majority of people a lot of time and effort, given the unlikelihood of your idea being a great thing nobody has thought of, given the sheer quantity of H. sapiens who have been and are now, and the percentage of those that have made a world-changing idea. Therefore make zero effort to try to think of world changing ideas that would help on a worldwide scale. 69.243.220.115 (talk) 01:22, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Analogously, that is why I never get out of bed in the morning. Because free will is an illusion, and I will be forced to get out of bed by reality whether I want to or not. μηδείς (talk) 01:25, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Douglas Hofstadter, in the essays that form chapters 30 and 31 of Metamagical Themas, calls this superrationality or renormalized rationality. Looie496 (talk) 01:42, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Maybe Base rate fallacy? You are only looking at "number of humans who have made a difference" / "the number of humans", this fraction is undoubtedly miniscule. However you are neglecting the other, arguably more important part of the statistic, namely out of "the number of humans who changed the world and DIDN'T make zero effort" / "number of people who changed the world" is probably close to 1 (expressed as probablility, or 100% as a percentage). Vespine (talk) 02:36, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I don't think this is a nameable formal fallacy. The OP describes a self doubting state of mind that could arise from experience of past failure to assert one's inventions and/or inadequate knowledge of the actual state of the relevant art. Unimaginative managers can have this effect on smarter workers who will feel constricted by their NIH attitude. DriveByWire (talk) 03:16, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

From the articles Not invented here and Invented here, it looks like NIH's meaning is "we only use what we invented" while IH actually means "we only use what others have invented." 20.137.18.53 (talk) 13:01, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

If you really did have an exceptional idea, doubting it seems like a case of the Dunning–Kruger effect; you assume that other people have the same high ability that you do. In any case, even if your idea isn't totally original doesn't mean it's not worth pursuing; perhaps there are reasons why your idea hasn't been put into practice that you haven't thought of, or which you have thought of and can overcome. We are fortunate that we live in an age where idly researching vague notions is so easy! FiggyBee (talk) 03:42, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Actually, I think Vespine has the answer. μηδείς (talk) 03:59, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I'm not a statistician and only recently got interested in this topic but I do think I'm on the right track. It's not quite the base rate fallacy as explained in our article, which is more specifically about sensitivity and specificity in "tests".. Another fallacy based on the base rate fallacy is Prosecutor's fallacy which again, isn't qite the same thing as the op describes, but pretty close. It describes how evidence was presented in the OJ trial that "only 1 in 7500 people who bash their wife go on to kill them", so the fact that OJ bashed his wife can't be used as evidence, that's the logic they used. However, 8 out of 9 wives who are murdered by their husbands ARE previously bashed by them, so it is in fact very relavant to the trial. Similarly you could say only 1 out of 10 Million people change the world so it's pointless, BUT 9 out of 10 of people who DO change the world DO make an effort (hypothetically). Ignoring that is the base rate fallacy. I'm fairly sure. Vespine (talk) 06:01, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it is the Defender's fallacy, actually, which is a complicated misapplication of base rates. μηδείς (talk) 07:17, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

OJ bashed his wife, "8 out of 9 wives who are murdered by their husbands ARE previously bashed by them", therefore OJ murdered his wife. Sounds like a fairly straightforward case of affirming the consequent to me. However, it is not actually what Gigerenzer said, according to the prosecutor's fallacy article. His actual argument is "the chances that a batterer actually murdered his partner, given that she has been killed, is about 8 in 9". FiggyBee (talk) 08:48, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

No one said "therefore OJ murdered his wife" except you. The point made was more subtle and relevant and the same both here and in the article. μηδείς (talk) 16:52, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

That was what the prosecutor in his trial was trying to prove, wasn't it? My point (although not that well expressed) is that Gigerenzer said "the chances that a batterer actually murdered his partner, given that she has been killed, is about 8 in 9", which boils down logically to "If you bashed her, you probably killed her". What Vespine said is "8 out of 9 wives who are murdered by their husbands ARE previously bashed by them", which boils down to "If you killed her, you probably bashed her". The implication is reversed, and only the first would be sound evidence in a murder trial. FiggyBee (talk) 09:08, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

It seems to me FiggyBee has a point although not that well expressed. Since it hadn't been established beyond a reasonable doubt that the wife was killed by her husband, the percentage of husbands who killed their wives that bashed them isn't that important. What is perhaps the most relevent in deciding if the bashing is relevant is to establish what percentage of married women who were murdered in similar circumstances were killed by husbands who had bashed them.edit: women who had previously been bashed by their husbands or partners and were later murdered in similar circumstances were murded by the person who bashed them. (Of course how you establish similar circumstances is a very open question.) If the percentage is small, then the fact he bashed his wive wasn't particularly relevent in deciding whether or not her murdered her. (I presume it was accepted he bashed her, I'm not familiar with the details of the case.) Or to put it a different way, since they were trying to establish whether or not her murdered her, the fact that if he had murdered her there's a good chance he would have bashed her and he did bash her isn't that significant. In fact I would go as far as to say the statistic used by the defence is more significant edit: since it tells us more about the usefulness of the fact he bashed his wife in establishing his guilt for the murder. Nil Einne (talk) 19:38, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

I think the problem is that the base rate (number of women murdered by their husbands) is ALREADY very low, so using probability to imply innocence is irrelevant at best, and misleading at worst. Imagine at another murder trial, the defence didn't mention bashing at all and isntead said that only 1 in 10,000 people commit murder, so the accused couldn't have done it because the chance they did is only 1 in 10,000! That obviously can NOT be logically used as a defence at a murder trial, but it's essentially the same thing as what the defence tried at the OJ trial. The fact that murder is a rare event to begin with is not relavant, just as the fact that men who bash their wives rarely go on to kill them. However the fact that 8 out of 9 murderers do bash their wives previous to killing them IS relavant, given that a murder has actually taken place. Put it this way: Given 2 suspects, one that bashed his wife an one that didn't, the one that did is 8 times more likely to have been the murderer. It's obviously NOT a bull's eye that conclusivley proves they did it, but a case often doesn't have such a bull's eye argument and relies instead on these lines of evidence converging until it can be proved beyond reasonable doubt. Vespine (talk) 23:51, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Only if they are married to the same dead woman, of course. μηδείς (talk) 01:51, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Yes, it's purely a hypothetical example. Another way of putting it might be, the defence said only 1 out of 7500 men who batter their wives go on to kill them, BUT they don't mention that only one out of 67,000 men who DON'T batter their wives go on to kill them (the number is a rough guess). Vespine (talk) 01:59, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Gaelic Football and marriage

I have a couple of questions

1. Why is Gaelic Football exclusively Irish? I am told that Scotland is a Gaelic country as well
2. Why is marrying close relatives so innapropriate? 212.183.128.73 (talk) 20:23, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

2) Closely related individuals have a higher chance of having children with dual recessive genetic disorders. They also tend to have exaggerated features (if parents are tall, the children are really tall, etc.), which can be good or bad. StuRat (talk) 20:44, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

1) The Gaelic Athletic Association defines itself as a native Irish organization and has (as far as I know) no grounds or offices outside Ireland. The article Gaelic football gives the sport's history which dates back over 300 years in Ireland, and it has been spread outside Ireland only by amateur players of the Irish diaspora. The Gaelic known in Scotland has deviated from Irish Gaelic and is spoken by only 1.2% of the population. Clearly the Scots would rather beat the English at their own game than import the Irish game. DriveByWire (talk) 21:37, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Of those hundreds of years of history, most of it comprises that rather ill-defined generic game simply called football (a hodge-podge of kicking, dribbling, carrying, throwing, scrumming, and punching). It wasn't until the 19th century that various formal codifications of that sport arose, which gave rise to the various codes of "football" that dominate today - rugby football in 1823, association football in 1948, Australian rules football (the most traditional adherent to the punching ethos) in 1859, and American football shortly thereafter. All drew lines between classes and nations which hadn't been so formally delimited until then. This was particularly the case for Gaelic football, which was formalised in around 1887 as a specific rejection of the British codes and a deliberate statement of Irishness. Ever since it's been very strongly associated with Irish identity and Irish nationalism: playing Gaelic football (and other Gaelic games) was tantamount to declaring you were Irish. Gaelic football was thus inextricably enmeshed with the torments of the Irish independence struggle (e.g. Bloody Sunday (1920)) and its own rules and practices (such as rule 27) meant it was unlikely to take off outside the community of people who identified as Irish. Until relatively recently Gaelic football made little attempt to evangelise itself outside Ireland and those of Irish extraction. Compare that to association football and to a lesser extent American football, which have tried very hard to spread their appeal. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 01:08, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

2) There is also the question of genetic diversity. From a species survival point of view, inbreeding makes a population less diverse and thus less robust. Karenjc 22:41, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

Algebraic chess notation in other alphabets

The article on algebraic chess notation does a fine job listing how the pieces are abbreviated in other languages. But it got me to wondering if the files on the board are always labeled with the Latin alphabet letters  a b c d e f g h . If a game were being recorded in Cyrillic, for example, in addition to changing the abbreviations for the pieces, would the files become  а б в г д е ж з ? Or in Greek, would  α β γ δ ε ζ η θ  be used?    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 23:45, 9 July 2012 (UTC)

It would appear that in Russian the Latin script is still used (at least in this book, which appears to be an introduction to chess). Unfortunately the Russian Wikipedia is on strike today, so the thing I'd normally recommend (find some detailed en.wikipedia articles on chess minutiae and then compare against their Russian language equivalents) isn't available, today at least. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 00:19, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Eating my own dogfood and looking at Sicilian Defence it seems that Bulgarian, Chinese, and Japanese stick with Latin (bearing in mind that some non-en articles are incomplete translations from en, and so this isn't very strong evidence) but Hebrew does not. I've yet to find an Arabic or Farsi example that's instructive. -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 00:28, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

July 10

JAN MATEJKO PRINT

My dad gave me a very old, very large, print of an JAN MATEJKO painting. It is in black and white, it almost looks like a sketch. I have searched, but cannot find any references to prints of his work.This print is of his battle. I hope you can help me because I don't know anything about prints, and this one is so old the paper is starting to disinegrate. HELP...Many thanks in advance... Eydie Teas — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.222.54.98 (talk) 05:09, 10 July 2012 (UTC)

Prints of his works seem to be widely available from sites like this, this, and this. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:40, 10 July 2012 (UTC)