Wikipedia talk:Vital articles/Level/5/People

Level 1 Level 2 Level 3 Level 4 Level 5

Level 5 Subpages

People History and geography Society STEM

Introduction

The purpose of this discussion page is to select 50,000 topics for which Wikipedia should have high-quality articles.

Any article currently on this list may be challenged. The discussion is open to the following rules:

Voting count table (>60%)

P = passes F = fails		opposing votes
		0	1	2	3	4	5	6	7	8	9
0	supporting votes	–	–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F
1		–	–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
2		–	–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
3		–	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
4		P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F	F
5		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
6		P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F	F
7		P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F	F
8		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F
9		P	P	P	P	P	P	F	F	F	F

1. Discussions should run for at least 14 days before being closed;
2. Discussions should have at least 4 participants before being closed;
3. For a change to the list to be implemented, it must have over 60% support;
4. For a change to the list to be implemented, it must have 4 support votes;
5. Discussions should remain open until 7 days after the most recent vote.

• 14 days ago: 01:10, 29 April 2024 (UTC)
• 7 days ago: 01:10, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

The following link represent all current Level 5 Vital articles that are classified as people:

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Miscellaneous

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Artists, musicians, and composers

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Entertainers, directors, producers, and screenwriters

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Military personnel, revolutionaries, and activists

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Philosophers, historians, political and social scientists

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Politicians and leaders

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Religious figures

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Scientists, inventors, and mathematicians

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Sports figures

Further information: Wikipedia:Vital articles/Level/5/People/Writers and journalists

Add Der Blaue Reiter

A "group" of mainly Germans and Russians expressionist painters, 6 of them vital and others could potentially be added as well - David Burliuk, Paul Klee  4, August Macke  5, Arnold Schoenberg  4, Franz Marc  4 and Wassily Kandinsky  4. The "group" was pioneering for the development of modern art, breaking away from traditional styles to explore abstraction and expressionism, making it an important type of Avant-garde  4. They also produced a vital paiting, Blue Horses  5 (which probably should be removed but sure). The Blue Rider 01:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. The namesake of my username; support as nominator. The Blue Rider 01:32, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Art history is sufficiently covered czar 06:27, 16 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

@The Blue Rider:, Help me put this in context versus other performing artist groups at VA. Where as bands, rap groups and such generally perform jointly despite individual identities, other performing artist affiliations are a bit looser. Bands obviously abound at VA. A rap collective is viewed as a group so N.W.A  5 has a spot in VA. Acting associations such at Rat Pack, and the less vital Frat Pack and Brat Pack are omitted. Visual artist affiliations have a long history. I am not enough of an art historian to really know where to go to find comparables. I think it is more common for artistic movements to get attention at VA. E.g., there was a group of artists that propelled Impressionism  4, but I don't recall if they had a group name. Can you point me to similar artistic affiliation/grouping that is VA?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:52, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

I don't think we have any artist groups listed yet, but there were plenty through history, School of Paris, COBRA, Nazarene movement, Barbizon School, Die Brücke, etc. The Blue Rider 11:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

If we are going to include artist groups we should start at the top of that group. Can you convince me that this group is the top of the list of artist groups? If not can you convince me that I should support all groups that are more vital than them as well as them? I am apt to nominate Rat Pack at some point now that I am thinking about this topic.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 16:19, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Der Blaue Reiter is the most vital "art group" of the Expressionism  4 movement followed by Die Brücke. I think I already justified its vitality in the nomination's discussion. The Blue Rider 02:02, 25 January 2024 (UTC)

Also, is your claim that Der Blaue Reiter is responsible for the Avant-garde cultural movement (which went beyond visual art)?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:56, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

No, the avant-garde movement didn't originate from them, but Expressionism  4 is a type of avant-garde. This movement was significantly influenced by the group though.— Preceding unsigned comment added by The Blue Rider (talk • contribs) 11:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:44, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

P.S. Blue Horses points towards German Expressionism, which it turns out is more broad than an artistic movement and seems different than the Avant-garde movement.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:01, 23 January 2024 (UTC)

Avant-garde is a leftist social movement aiming to dismantle bourgeois conceptions of art, music, family, and more. This is achieved through various movements such as expressionism, dadaism, and others.— Preceding unsigned comment added by The Blue Rider (talk • contribs) 11:34, 23 January 2024 (UTC)-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:44, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

• Neutral. My main issue preventing me from supporting what is otherwise pretty important is the same regarding the Rat Pack: A) it’s not an actual group; and B) everyone who’s already on here is significantly more vital than this, rather than just being vital in their own right.SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:29, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

  Formal or informal it was a group, otherwise it wouldn't have a Wikipedia page. The group itself is vital on its own since it was through it that expressionst laid its foundations. The Blue Rider 18:37, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Swap Joseph Bonaparte  5 for Ferdinand VII

Going through the list of early-modern Spanish rulers, I quickly noticed Ferdinand VII as a pretty big omission, which made the inclusion of Joseph Bonaparte seem worse. Joseph was little more than a puppet ruler, put in place by his brother, that never gained any favour and wasn't able to do anything while the entire country (and empire) was in revolt against him. During the Peninsular War, guerrillas in Spain and revolutionaries in Latin America both recognised Ferdinand as their rightful constitutional monarch, making him the first such monarch in Spain. Ferdinand's reign after his restoration was characterised by a constant struggle between his absolutist rule and liberal constitutionalism, with both a Liberal period and an ominously-named absolutist period; as well as his attempt to keep the Spanish Empire together, ultimately losing control of Spanish America. When he died, he caused a succession crisis that resulted in the rise of Carlism and ultimately led to a revolution that briefly toppled the monarchy. So while Bonaparte only had a brief and ineffective reign because his brother put him there, Ferdinand had a long and eventful one in which he was a huge presence in many nation- and even world-changing scenarios. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:39, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. --Grnrchst (talk) 18:39, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
2. Support adittion per nominator. The Blue Rider 23:42, 24 January 2024 (UTC)
3. Support addition, oppose removal. Per TheBlueRider. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:59, 19 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose removal. Joseph was also the King of Naples where he made a series of economic, social and judicial reforms. His reign in Spain lacked popular approval but that precise reason is what makes him vital, his unpopularity ultimately led to the Peninsular War  5 (this should be bumped to level 4, no?). The Blue Rider 23:42, 24 January 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Kerry Washington

She has been listed in the Time 100 and earned 2 Primetime Emmy Award for Outstanding Lead Actress in a Drama Series nominations.

Support

1. As nominator. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:02, 31 January 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:51, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. A brilliant actress no doubt, but I don't see such impact to add her to the list. Besides, we need to cut down on entertainers. Could support a swap with an obvious target for removal. Makkool (talk) 17:53, 20 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per Makkool. We should be cutting down. The bar for entertainers is too low at the moment. starship.paint (RUN) 07:24, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Non-American activist proposals

Since I have noted that a lot of the listings in the activist section other than the US also needs big changes, I will begin listing proposals here. Note that I won't be focusing entirely on removals, as I think there are a lot of other potential articles to be listed that are more appropriate than those there currently.

Swap Dennis Brutus for Joe Slovo

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Joe Slovo was a much more prominent anti-apartheid activist, as one of the leading members of the African National Congress, South African Communist Party and uMkhonto we Sizwe.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 22:29, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:02, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
6. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume (talk) 01:22, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move Julius Malema  5 to politicians and leaders

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Someone who is most famous and leader of a (legal) political party should definitely be listed there and not here.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Samuel Maharero

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

"Paramount Chief of the Herero people in German South West Africa (today Namibia) during their revolts and in connection with the events surrounding the Herero genocide. Today he is considered a national hero in Namibia." - seems like a very good pick for reducing sysbias.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Definitely a vital subject for the encyclopedia. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support as politician/leader Title "paramount chief" screams politician/leader to me. Compare Tecumseh or Powhatan.pbp 19:00, 20 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move Lucien Bouchard  5 to politicians and leaders

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Same rationale as Julius Malema

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Henrietta Edwards, Louise McKinney, Irene Parlby for The Famous Five (Canada)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The Famous Five were a group of five suffragists who fought the right of women to be recognized as "qualified persons" under Canadian electoral law. Of course, Canada is far from the only place where the struggle for women's suffrage was taking place, so listing this many for Canada alone seems rather disproportionate. I support keeping Nellie McClung and Emily Murphy as those two appear to be the most notable in their own right, but the others I think should be replaced with the umbrella article.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Makes sense. Don't think we need every one of the "famous five" individually listed. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. agreed Aurangzebra (talk) 22:27, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
5. per above.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:03, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
6. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume (talk) 01:23, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Comrade Artemio

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

One of the post-Gonzalo leaders of Shining Path, a Peruvian guerilla group which effectively collapsed as a major force after Gonzalo was captured. I don't think we need anyone other than Gonzalo himself to represent them.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
2. I definitely wouldn't call any members of the Shining Path other than Gonzalo "vital" to learn about. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:13, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume (talk) 15:27, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

1. It was not clear to me who Gonzalo was. Now I see the piping. This should be made clearer.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:12, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move Roberto D'Aubuisson  5 to war criminals or politicians and leaders

He only seems to be here because of his stint in opposition to the Revolutionary Government Junta of El Salvador (1979-82). I would argue he should be under war criminals as that is what he seems most well-known for and I doubt he would be here if he wasn't known as "Blowtorch Bob", but given he did serve in the legislative assembly for ten years, and as founde of a political party, I can see the argument for politician too.

Move to war criminals

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Move to politicians

1. I think we would need sourcing to support a move to the criminals section, as right now I can't find anything that accuses him of "crimes against humanity" or "war crimes". But as the founder of ARENA, I think moving him to politicians make sense. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Grnrchst.SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Per Grnrchst. starship.paint (RUN) 09:30, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Remove Carlos Saavedra Lamas

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I don't think we need to list every lesser-known Nobel Peace Prize winner here.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Agree but it does remind me of something I've noticed in Scientists. We seem to list pretty much every Nobel Prize in Physics winner even those with stubs or hyper-technical contributions that haven't really achieved vitality yet. Aurangzebra (talk) 22:25, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume (talk) 15:26, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Alfonso García Robles

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Same rationale as Carlos Saavedra Lamas

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:17, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume (talk) 15:27, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Augusta La Torre

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Per the policy of having Shining Path represented only by Gonzalo/Guzman, she only seems to be listed as vital for her cult of personality within the organization.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:18, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume (talk) 15:28, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove A. M. Azahari

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Seems to be only listed because of his involvement in the Brunei revolt, which isn't even VA5.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
2. No assertion of importance in the lead, no legacy or significance. Poor article, I don't see why he is vital - barely notable, I'd say. Sure, sysbias is an issue here, but too early to consider him for vital. I'll add to the lead the stuff you say, however. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:27, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:22, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. He set events into motion that led to a war between Indonesia and Malaysia and the rise to power of Suharto. I think he makes the cut. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Swap Chang Chun-ha for Ahn Chang Ho

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Swapping a lesser-known figure of the Korean independence movement for someone much more prominent.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 20:56, 3 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Ahn Chang Ho is definitely more vital. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:26, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume (talk) 15:29, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Filep Karma

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

A West Papuan political prisoner, not much more to say than that. We list Benny Wenda  5, who is more of an actual leader of the West Papuan independence movement. Filep Karma's incarceration and ill treatment attracted outcry, but that sadly isn't that outstanding in the grand scheme of things. The page view count is low as well.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. His story is certainly harrowing, but as nom noted, he doesn't stand out too much from other West Papuan activists. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Edward Leung

In general Hong Kong seems to be overrepresented here, I count 6 Hong Kongers (pop. ~7.5 million) out of 66 for all of Asia as a whole (pop. ~4.7 billion), and Leung appears generally less prominent than many of the other HK dissidents listed such as Joshua Wong  5 and Agnes Chow  5. Also note the relatively low pageview compared to the others.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Not sure about lasting impact. Hong Kong protests have been snuffed out. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Not the best argument, but he doesn’t even have a picture. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose. I think being the person that coined the slogan "Liberate Hong Kong, revolution of our times" puts him over the line for me. Although I can see the argument for removal. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Jimmy Sham

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Less prominent than Edward Leung in addition to the HKers I am not proposing for removal. He is also an LGBT rights activists so I guess there is another angle there but even in that I'm not convinced he is internationall prominent enough to tip the scales.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Weak support. Certainly notable, but I'm not sure if vital. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Benny Tai

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The third and final HKer I am proposing for removal, he has the lowest pageviews of all three I have mentioned so far, and lacks the angle of being notable in another area that Jimmy Sham has.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Least controversial HK proposal. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Not vital. Gizza (talk) 02:36, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 16:03, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move Ali Shariati  5 to Philosophers,_historians,_political_and_social_scientists#Sociologists

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

There is frequently an overlap between "activists" and social scientists in terms of societal critique, but I would argue he fits better under the latter section as his career was primarily that of an academic, and also for the same reason Karl Marx  3 is listed under social sciences.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Definitely should be moved. While Shariati had a huge influence on the revolutionary movement, he is better listed under social scientists. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Baba Amte

An anti-poverty activist of the type that is often overlooked internationally, but one who was very highly-regarded in India, enough to win numerous official honours and be featured on a national stamp. Also note the high pageviews.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Quite the big name in neo-Gandhism. Interwikis and pageviews indicate a keen interest in him as a subject. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:57, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Ayyankali

"The historian P. Sanal Mohan has described Ayyankali as "the most important leader of modern Kerala"." An important activist for caste rights in India, a subject which is little-discussed in the West, this seems important to counter sysbias.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Abdullah Öcalan

Founder of PKK, a long-running rebel group fighting for Kurdish independence from Turkey, and a major influence upon the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, one of the factions of the Syrian Civil War. For comparison, we already list a couple of Turkish communists who are much less well-known than him. I would argue he may be one of the biggest omissions here.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Honestly shocking that he's not already listed. He's up there in terms of the most consequential/influential revolutionaries of the 21st century. --Grnrchst (talk) 10:41, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Agree with Grnrchst, it’s pretty bad that we don’t have him. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Itō Noe

A major figure in both Japanese anarchism and feminism in the early 20th century, and one who became a major martyr figure after her killing by police, and whose story was adapted into a TV drama in Japan as recently as 2022.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. An iconic figure of the Taisho era revolutionary movement. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Tan Malaka

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

One of the most prominent figures of the Indonesian National Revolution, arguably he could go under social scientists or philosophers like Shiarati but I think its safe to say he lived far from the ivory towers for the most part.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Definitely vital as a revolutionary. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 13:43, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Move Tony Benn  5 to politicians and leaders

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Most well-known as an MP for nearly 50 years.

Support

1. Nom.Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Definitely more of a politician than an activist. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom. - Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 14:40, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 06:04, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Bramwell Booth

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

The second leader of the Salvation Army, he doesn't really seem to stand out in vitality compared to his already-listed father and predecessor.

Support

1. Nom.Iostn (talk) 22:05, 4 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Not necessary when we have William Booth. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per above. starship.paint (RUN) 14:01, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• Just want to note that I look forward to the day when we can stop removing activists/revolutionaries and start adding some. I have my eye on quite a few that I would like to see added once we're under-quota. --Grnrchst (talk) 11:04, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Paul Henri Balluet d'Estournelles de Constant

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

An early Noble Peace Prize winner who is today near-forgotten if pageviews are anything to go by (5-6 per day).

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
3. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:32, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Randal Cremer

Similar to previous, but with higher pageviews. He was also part of the same movement which seems overrepresented for European activists, or someone just wanted to add all the 1900s Nobel Peace Prize winners for some reason.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Remove Élie Ducommun

Ditto the previous two.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:39, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Remove Charles Albert Gobat

Ditto the previous four.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:40, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Mikhail Kalinin  5 to politicians and leaders

Someone who is most well-known for being a Soviet head of state should definitely be there not here,

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Mathias Kneißl

Doesn't seem to be at all known outside of Bavaria.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Anastas Mikoyan  5 to politicians

Similar to Kalinin, most well-known as a major Soviet politician.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support --Thi (talk) 09:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Boris Nemtsov  5 to politicians

I can see the argument for keeping him here, but he was Russian Deputy Prime Minister in the late 1990s. I think "former government minister turned Putin critic/rival" fits more there than here.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support --Thi (talk) 09:44, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:32, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:42, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Louis Renault (jurist)

More obscure 1900s Nobel Prize winners. My favourite thing.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:42, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Grigory Rodchenkov

I have no idea why he is listed in this section, but regardless I don't he as an individual is vital anyway.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:42, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Markus Wolf  5 to Miscellaneous#Law_enforcement_and_fire_service

No idea why he is here either, but definitely seems vital regardless.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:34, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Mikhail Tolstykh for Igor Girkin

Swapping a lesser-known war criminal for arguably the most important figure among the Donbas separatists.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 14:52, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Martin Niemöller

Former German reactionary who turned on the Nazis, became a political prisoner, ended up writing one of the most famous antifascist texts and internationally renowned pacifist in the post-war decades.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support --Thi (talk) 09:45, 4 March 2024 (UTC);Oppose

Discuss

Add Errico Malatesta

He was arguably the singlemost famous anarchist revoluationary in Europe in the late 20th century.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 00:05, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Late 19th/early 20th century but aye. Malatesta was one of the most consequential figures in Italian political history. Not on the level of Giuseppe Garibaldi  4, Benito Mussolini  4 or Antonio Gramsci  4, but definitely vital enough for level 5. --Grnrchst (talk) 14:12, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:55, 21 February 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 14:11, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 02:43, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Pedro Menéndez de Avilés

First Governor of Florida, founder of St. Augustine, Florida  5, and designer of the first trans-oceanic convoy. Listing here instead of at Politicians because his military career is more vital than his time as Governor, although the latter definitely helped.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:50, 3 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Add Jensen Huang

He is making AI feasible for the masses. Will be the first to lead a company (Nvidia  5) to 5T valuation, IMO.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 05:51, 6 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per TonyTheTiger. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:06, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Until Nvidia actually hits a 5T market cap, oppose. Nvidia's success can be attributed to having the best GPUs which every single commercial deep learning application today requires. Jensen Huang did not invent the idea that GPUs can accelerate deep learning nor did he design or implement the current GPUs that are used today. Nvidia is its product more so than it is its CEO/founder. I'd much rather see someone like Satya Nadella added first because Microsoft's insane recent success can be directly linked to him: after 14 years of near-zero growth under Steve Ballmer, Nadella has 10x'ed Microsoft's stock price (27% growth per year), making it the most valuable company in the world right now. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:43, 6 February 2024 (UTC)

   I would support that if you proposed it. QuicoleJR (talk) 21:11, 9 February 2024 (UTC)

   User:Aurangzebra, are you watching. Price closed on 2/6 682.23. Today 926.69. I hope you aren't shorting this thing.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 22:06, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

   @TonyTheTiger: Haha I would never short it. As I said before, Nvidia is its product more than it is Jensen Huang. Every single ML application with a modern-day workload needs GPUs and ML is what's red-hot right now so GPUs are flying off the shelves. Jensen Huang didn't invent the GPU, nor is it possible to directly attribute him to the specific decisions that have made Nvidia GPUs the leaders in the market e.g. things like CUDA lock-in. If tomorrow they announced that Jensen Huang retired and TonyTheTiger was taking over, I'd still be long NVIDIA. It's like selling ice-cold water in the middle of the desert; the salesman doesn't matter since the product sells itself. And this is evidenced by the fact that almost any company that has any stake in the GPU game has doubled their stock price in the last 5 years: ASUS (102%), AMD (861%), and especially Supermicro (5863%). Should we list Supermicro's CEO since their growth is over twice the growth of Nvidia? Aurangzebra (talk) 10:11, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

   Not sure about Supermicro, but if any company were to replace Jensen Huang with me, short them.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:51, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Wilhelm Reich

He was a bit of a crank but also one of the most influential psychologists of the 20th century. His works on societal repression and individual development marked the diffusion of psychoanalysis' insights on sexuality to social psychology and critical theory, inflecting on topics such as power, ideology, and social change. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:57, 8 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:57, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Definitely a major omission here. Iostn (talk) 21:20, 8 February 2024 (UTC)
3. definitely, good catch Aurangzebra (talk) 08:36, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
4. czar 18:10, 9 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:04, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 16:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Some popular musician removals

Remove Tiny Tim (musician)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

It seems he was considered a camp icon at some point, but I don’t think he’s remembered all that much. He only had one hit single.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. feminist🚰 (talk) 04:16, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
3. pbp 13:18, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Swap with Spike Jones, otherwise support. I feel like Jones is a lot more remembered than Tiny Tim. He definitely had a much more successful career than him, at least. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove The Shaggs

Too much of a cult band for a VA. Their proto-punk charm trails behind the Velvet Underground’s song " After Hours" which came out a few months before their only album, Philosophy of the World.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Love the name, but not convinced they are vital (Isn't "Weird Al" Yankovic  5 "outside music"? the right argument might change my mind).TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   In what realm is Weird Al considered an outside musician? He’s been working within the music industry since forever. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:05, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   What is outside music?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:44, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

   From our outsider music article: Outsider music (from "outsider art") is music created by self-taught or naïve musicians. The term is usually applied to musicians who have little or no traditional musical experience, who exhibit childlike qualities in their music, or who have intellectual disabilities or mental illnesses.

   This is why Weird Al doesn’t qualify as an outsider musician. He is a comedic musician. Outsider musicians don’t win Grammys, their records don’t chart (let alone reach gold or platinum), and they don’t make professional music videos (sometimes with the help of the people their parodying). SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:23, 20 February 2024 (UTC)

3. Outsider music is gaining support for being removed from V5 at the Society section. If the genre is not included, I have to change my stand to support removing this too. No point in having an artist without the genre. --Makkool (talk) 13:46, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Think we need at least one outside music act. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

   Swap with Daniel Johnston, otherwise still oppose. Per Makkool. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:16, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. Agree with User:SailorGardevoir that we need at least one outsider musician. Who could be considered the most vital? Daniel Johnston could be a strong contender. Or maybe Wesley Willis or Jandek. --Makkool (talk) 20:38, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Remove Niño Ricardo

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Only six interwikis. From the article, it’s hard to tell what makes him stand out from other flamenco artists.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
3. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 20:43, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Bring Me the Horizon

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

We have Evanescence, My Chemical Romance, Fall Out Boy, Paramore and Avril Lavigne. I know these are very beloved bands, but having so many from this era strikes me as generational bias, and these guys seem the least vital of the bunch.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. agreed feminist🚰 (talk) 04:21, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
6. 49p (talk) 05:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Sam & Dave

I love some of their songs, but they were only moderately successful at their peak and didn’t really become cult heroes like other contemporaries on the list. I would rank their vitality as a little less than artists like The Isley Brothers or The Platters, who are not in here.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Swap with The Isley Brothers, otherwise support. The Isleys have had at least three decades of success. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 18:20, 28 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Bay City Rollers

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Their popularity was short-lived.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. "one of many acts" feminist🚰 (talk) 04:23, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Did I nominate these guys about 3 months ago in my 3 groups of musical acts that I nominated?-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Andy Williams

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Six Grammy nominations, had his own TV show. The article claims that he has sold over 45 million records, but the pointed source does not back that. I doubt that’s an accurate number.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support --Makkool (talk) 20:43, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove John Farnham

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

He released the second-best-selling album in Australia, but it doesn’t seem he replicated this success.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. feminist🚰 (talk) 04:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. I don't think he was as vital to the world as Kings of Leon whose nomination failed (5 multiplatinum albums in AUS where they first made it and eventually multiplatinum well beyond Oceania) TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
6. From a harsh perspective, you could say he was a one-hit wonder which is not enough for vitality. Gizza (talk) 02:38, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Kurtis Blow  5

A pioneering rapper. Other than “The Breaks” his discography doesn’t really stand out.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Discography is weak because he was helping make Rap a thing. His entire market was early adopters. Rap became mainstream because of people like him. per SailorGardevoir who is neutral below.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:01, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

• Swap with Lil Jon, otherwise neutral. Personally, I think Kurtis Blow being the first rapper to sign to a major label kind of makes him vital. That said, I do feel like Lil Jon is much more important than him. We don’t have anyone representing crunk, which is very glaring considering it was the biggest hip hop subgenre during the 2000s.SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Remove Neutral Milk Hotel

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

One (very) influential album, but I don’t think that’s enough for a VA. There are alternative bands who've had similarly acclaimed records with much longer careers that we don't list: The Flaming Lips, Wilco, LCD Soundsystem, to name a few.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:55, 11 February 2024 (UTC)
2. agreed re the comparisons feminist🚰 (talk) 04:22, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Swap with In the Aeroplane Over the Sea, otherwise swap with Wilco, otherwise support. If a band is mostly here for the massive cult surrounding one of their albums, shouldn’t that album be the one that’s vital? If not, then switch them with Wilco; not only do they have a longer career, they also have the whole Yankee Hotel Foxtrot debacle going for them.
4. TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 13:26, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Support swap with ITAOTS Iostn (talk) 23:58, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Not OP) Remove Akon

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

How has no one requested his removal? The guy’s rated low on all three WikiProjects he’s in. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. SailorGardevoir (talk) 04:14, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support --Makkool (talk) 20:43, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:09, 18 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Add Patrick Mahomes

He is now a legend of the game.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 04:46, 13 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. Swap with Dan Marino  5 if necessary. By this point it really is erroneous to not have him on here. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:33, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Just 27 interwikis, and another reminder that American football doesn't matter outside US. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:09, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Recentism. Just because he won a few Super Bowls doesn't mean that he is one of the few quarterbacks who make the list. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:54, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Recentism: Too early to judge topic's enduring importance or essentialness in its category. czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Wouldn't be able to say myself, but I doubt at only 28 he has cracked the top 13 quarterbacks in terms of vitality. J947 ‡ ^edits 06:09, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

• Only a few of those guys have won 3 championships. He might already be in the middle of that pack of 13 in many people's eyes. Marino is the greatest to never win one, but may be less vital than Mahomes already. I expect more to come from Mahomes (to my dismay as a Buffalo Bills fan).-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 18:57, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
• We already have 13 NFL quarterbacks. If he's added, somebody else needs to be removed pbp 19:08, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
• Sportsfigures is only 1% over 1214/1200. Is it imperative to swap. It is hard to say who is weakest. I imagine Marino and Warner may be among the weakest.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 19:15, 14 February 2024 (UTC)

Remove Cleveland Amory

Only eight interwikis, for those who value them, and only one of his books has an article. The book has no interwikis. This guy is not an important author. There could be an argument to move him to activists, since that is the more important part of his career, but I doubt he is more vital than the activists we have been removing.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:07, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:06, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support --Makkool (talk) 20:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:45, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
5. makes sense Aurangzebra (talk) 17:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 16:07, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Remove Ed Dorn

Only one interwiki, only one of his works has an article, no indication of vitality. We have too many poets for the U.S. and Canada, and he doesn't make the cut.

Support

1. As nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:16, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
2. makes sense, per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:44, 14 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Yeah, there needs to be some serious cuts in that section. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:13, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 20:45, 15 February 2024 (UTC)
5. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:46, 20 February 2024 (UTC)
6. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:03, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 16:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Neutral

Discuss

Affirmation of swap for Natalia Poklonskaya with Viktor Yushchenko

In November 2023 Kammerer55 unilaterally performed the above swap, and TonyTheTiger has protested this. I am bringing up the swap for affirmation on the record. I have included Kammerer55's original rationale below. The swap has already been performed, and if adequately supported, no action needs to be taken beyond closing this thread. starship.paint (RUN) 01:54, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. Natalia Poklonskaya was somewhat notable in Russia and Ukraine during the annexation of Crimea, but she played a minor role in the event and her highest official post was the regional (Crimean) prosecutor general. Instead, I propose to add Viktor Yushchenko, since he is the only Ukrainian president who is missing from the list, and since he was the leader of the Orange Revolution which was one of a few defining moments in modern Ukrainian history. Kammerer55 (talk) - originally written on 03:47, 24 November 2023 (UTC)
2. There's no doubt that this president is more vital than this regional prosecutor / legislator / ambassador. starship.paint (RUN) 01:54, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
3. This bold swap seems pretty reasonable. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:03, 17 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Agree. Poklonskaya's addition seems to have been due to her brief celebrity status. Not vital. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:12, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• @Piotrus, Tabu Makiadi, SailorGardevoir, RekishiEJ, and Aszx5000: - notify all others who participated in the previous thread. starship.paint (RUN) 01:54, 17 February 2024 (UTC)

Add Gang of Four (and possibly Zhang Chunqiao, Yao Wenyuan and Wang Hongwen)

The Gang of Four were a group of four functionaries who were powerful during the later stages of the Cultural Revolution. As it stands Jiang Qing  4, the most well-known figure of the Gang of Four is VA4, but neither the page on the Gang of Four nor any of the other members are VA5. I think Gang of Four should definitely be VA5 at least, the other members are less well-known as individuals but they may count here as well.

Support Gang of Four only

1. Is the Gang of Four vital? Absolutely. Are the other three members beside Jiang Qing vital himself? Eh… SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:05, 22 February 2024 (UTC)

   Jiang Qing is a woman - although if you want to exclude any members I would go for Yao as Zhang and Wang both held positions of being the Vice Premier of the PRC and Vice Chairman of the Communist Party respectively. Afaict Yao's highest-ranking official position was simply being a Politburo member. Iostn (talk) 18:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

2. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:40, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Support Gang of Four plus members

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:35, 21 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

More musician removals

Remove Robert Davine

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

1 interwiki. His contributions to disseminating the accordion were limited to a few recordings and creating a few university departments.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
   1. Guy doesn’t even have a RYM page. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:33, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
5. --EleniXDD※Talk 08:41, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Dave Apollon

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

1 interwiki. It seems he had an interesting life and collaborated with some important musicians, but I do not see the vitality here.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Carmel Gunning

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

1 interwiki. Irish flute player. Relatively obscure figure.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove DC Talk  5

Christian rap-rock trio. For all the massive influence American popular music has throughout the world, Contemporary Christian music doesn't strike me as very far-reaching, and I say this as someone with a lot of protestant relatives. There are many vital, regionally significant styles that don’t have individual artists, and Christian contemporary has five.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. They seem pretty important within the CCM genre. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Keith Green

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Per above.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support --Makkool (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 15:31, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Larry Norman  5

Per above.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Guy’s called the Father of Christian Rock. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Per SailorGardevoir, plus the fact that there is an entire documentary about him. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:06, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Roy Clark  5

He was better known as a TV host than a musician. He had some hits in the country charts through the 1970s, but not to a degree or consistency I would rank as vital.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. Move to TV personalities in the entertainment page. Both Don Cornelius  5 of Soul Train and Dick Clark  5 of American Bandstand are in that section. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
   1. Just moved him to TV personalities section. Reading his article, his vitality, if he had any, solely rest on him being the host of Hee Haw. He’s not someone who could technically be placed in different categories but got put in a possibly lesser one; he was outright miscategorized. We can still discuss whether he should still be listed, for which I am neutral. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:42, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Remove Midnight Oil

I think we have have too many rock bands, and these guys were only briefly successful outside of Australia.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose. I think they are one of the biggest alternative rock acts from Australia. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Paul Oakenfold

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

In the 1990s he was twice voted as the best DJ in the world by a UK magazine and collaborated with some of the era’s pop stars, but his own discography seems average and has won only a few awards. If we were not above the quota, I would suggest a swap with Trevor Horn, a more well-known and influential English producer

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Swap with Trevor Horn, otherwise support. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support swap - although, even under electronic music, there are still major omissions that I would list before him/suggest swapping for instead. Still Trevor Horn should be listed. Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   He’s probably going to be put under music producers if this swap occurs. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:42, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

   to be clear I wasn't saying he'd be added to electronic musicians, didn't phrase that clearly enough Iostn (talk) 18:37, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

4. Support swap Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 13:07, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Dechen Pem

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I feel harsh calling to remove the only artist in the Dzongkha language, but nothing about her article hints at vitality. It's even a little hard to find her music.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
3. This feels like it was just listed for the sake of representing Dzongkha/Bhutan, which is known for being one of the most isolated countries in the world and only has a population of around 700k. Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
5. J947 ‡ ^edits 20:49, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Souls (band)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

We should probably list more South Asian musicians, but the non-English language popular music selection looks pretty uneven, and removing articles that do not assert vitality is reasonable. 1 interwiki.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:52, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:44, 25 February 2024 (UTC)

   Swap with Azam Khan, per Hanif. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:35, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

3. Support --Makkool (talk) 17:48, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Swap with Azam Khan (singer), which the article claims that "he is considered to be one of the greatest artists in the history of Bangladeshi folk music". Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 15:29, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Support swap Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

(Not OP) Swap The Teenagers  5 with either The Drifters or The Platters

Yes, their profile picture is also being used for our doo-wop page, and they gave us Frankie Lymon and “Why Do Fools Fall in Love”. But their success was really brief and personally not that groundbreaking to warrant them being on here. I think a better representation of doo-wop based on longevity would probably be The Drifters. Admittedly, we already got Clyde McPhatter on here, and I’m using the term “longevity” really loosely due to how often this group trades off its members. (Most infamously, Ben E. King only became a Drifter because their manager fired everyone and then slapped the name on King’s group The Five Crowns.) Because of this, I also fine with adding The Platters, who Tabu Makiadi argued is more vital than Sam & Dave. (Also unlike the Drifters, The Platters were the same group of people throughout their heyday.)

Support The Drifters

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:43, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Support The Platters

Remove only

Oppose

Discuss

Add Brook Taylor  5

One of the most influential mathematicians of the 18th century. He is best known for developing Taylor's theorem  5 and Taylor series  4, which hundreds of thousands, if not millions, of students learn about every year.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:31, 25 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 09:53, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Support per nom. J947 ‡ ^edits 22:02, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:05, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
5. Per nom. QuicoleJR (talk) 17:04, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Elaine Paige and Patti LuPone

Look, I know that we really need to cut the actors/actresses section, but these two are probably the most well known actresses in musical theatre for West End and Broadway respectively. The former has been outright called the First Lady of British Musical Theatre, while the latter has multiple awards and nominations under her belt. (Yes, both of them also played Eva Perón in Evita.)

Support

1. As nom. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:09, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
3. --EleniXDD※Talk 08:59, 29 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Rosemary Kennedy

Even though she is in "case studies" (i.e. abnormals, medical oddities), she is represented by the Kennedy family under politicians. Even if her family wasn't VA, I'm not sure if she would be independently anyway. pbp 17:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. pbp 17:39, 26 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:34, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:41, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:27, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Karl Heinrich Ulrichs  5 to activists

Listed under sexologists, and although he was one, he seems to be more well-known as one of the first gay rights advocates as his primary claim to vitality.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Kurt Warnekros for Harry Benjamin

Kurt Warenekros, first of all doesn't even seem to be placed correctly, as he was a surgeon and gynaecologist rather than any kind of social scientist. Even so he as a person seems to be much more obscure than Lili Elbe  5. Harry Benjamin was one of the earliest and most influential researchers on transgender people.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 19:30, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:40, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 07:04, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
5. EleniXDD※Talk 15:58, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Yellow Magic Orchestra

I see these guys get brought up a lot when it comes to the history of Electronic music  4, especially regarding the development of Synth-pop  5.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:40, 27 February 2024 (UTC)
2. I'd also support adding Ryuichi Sakamoto who was highly prolific in his own right. Iostn (talk) 18:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Stan Getz

Helped brought bossa nova to the United States.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:18, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. 45 interwikis and rated High-Importance by WikiProject Jazz. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:25, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:31, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Harvey Weinstein  5 to sex criminals

Support

1. That's what he's primarily known for now. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. He's pretty much synonymous with sex crimes. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think he would have been vital even if he wasn’t a serial rapist. SailorGardevoir (talk) 08:18, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
2. per SailorGardevoir. He is definitely more well-known for sex crimes but he would have been vital regardless for being a pioneer in indie film production and showing that indie films could also be box office hits with his work at Miramax. Aurangzebra (talk) 11:00, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Oppose --Thi (talk) 09:50, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. As a note: if this gets voted for, then Jimmy Savile  5 should probably be moved as well. Iostn (talk) 18:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

   See, that’s my main reason why I’m against moving him. I feel like the sex criminal section should be reserved for people whose vitality solely rests on being sex criminals. Guys like Weinstein, Savile, R. Kelly  5, and especially Bill Cosby  4 would have been on here regardless of them being revealed to be horrific monsters. SailorGardevoir (talk) 20:02, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Remove certain sex criminals

Remove Mary Kay Letourneau

Famous yes, but vital? I'm not sure. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. pbp 03:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
3. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 06:59, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
5. EleniXDD※Talk 14:03, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:39, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Weak oppose based on high level of cultural influence in the US. Iostn (talk) 18:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Remove Andrew Luster

Don't see the vitality, there are other similar cases we don't list, four interwikis. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Unknown person. The Blue Rider 00:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
3. pbp 03:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
5. EleniXDD※Talk 14:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
6. Iostn (talk) 18:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Bilal Skaf

One single interwiki probably isn't a great sign Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:58, 28 February 2024 (UTC)
2. Unknown person. The Blue Rider 00:26, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
3. pbp 03:38, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
4. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 06:36, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
5. EleniXDD※Talk 14:05, 29 February 2024 (UTC)
6. We don't even list Sydney gang rapes, which would probably be the more significant topic than the ringleader. Iostn (talk) 18:45, 29 February 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Sex criminal additions

Add Ghislaine Maxwell

You could argue Jeffrey Epstein  5 makes this redundant, but I would argue she is also vital in her own right, especially as the only one of the two to actually face a trial.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 19:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:58, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Recentism: Too early to understand the topic's enduring importance or essentialness in its category. czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. Neutral. As per my reasoning below, not sure how we can square away adding someone whose vitality relies on a single publicized criminal case when we voted to remove/voted against adding two even more popular cases. Neutral instead of oppose since Maxwell is at least more infamous globally than Tabet below is. Aurangzebra (talk) 00:00, 2 March 2024 (UTC)

Add Mustapha Tabet

I found this article while checking List of serial rapists to compare to the serial killers we currently list (serial killers are generally a lot more well-known, maybe that says something, I don't know), and he seems to be highly significant in Morocco, i.e. an underrepresnted country. His case was very high-profile as it came to exemplify abuse of power by authorities in the country, and he remains the last person to be executed in the country decades later.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 19:46, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. We voted to remove Killing of JonBenét Ramsey recently and voted against adding Disappearance of Madeleine McCann which were arguably way higher-profile global criminal cases. If those don't make the cut, then this shouldn't either. Also if there's one place where I don't think people care about representation, it's being on a list of serial rapists. If we want more North African representation, there are better places to do it. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:56, 1 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per Aurangzebra. The Blue Rider 13:35, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Bankim Chandra Chatterjee  5

He is often viewed as India's first great novelist and one of the most important figures of the Bengal Renaissance  5. He is best known for the novel Anandamath, considered a seminal work in Indian literature  4, which gave rise to Vande Mataram, India's national song.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 20:40, 2 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:54, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 04:31, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Minor Threat

Considering Fugazi  5 is vital, I feel like MacKaye's (frontman of Fugazi and Minor Threat) band Minor Threat is also influential. Minor Threat standardized the DIY-punk scene, coined the term straight edge with a song (unintentionally), and influenced the punk scene with its ethics and aesthetics (especially the Washington, D.C. hardcore scene). Considering those reasons and how many sources call them with one of the "influential" punk bands, it seems the band is a simple addition.

Support

1. Nom. 49p (talk) 02:30, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:08, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Hunter Moore

Being the "most hated man on the internet" for a short period of time doesn't make him vital, five interwikis, He's a bit more notable than the others I nominated for removal but I still don't think he passes the bar. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 23:43, 3 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:02, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discussion

Add Hoagy Carmichael

Very successful songwriter. Wrote several hundred songs, including “Stardust”, “Georgia on My Mind”, “Skylark”, and “Ole Buttermilk Sky”. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:09, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:23, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Was going to propose this myself yesterday after being inspired by your other suggestions but you beat me to it. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:58, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Lew Dockstader

Zero interwikis. He collaborated with Al Jolson but seems like an otherwise obscure blackface performer.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:26, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 03:00, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 21:57, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Not seeing any form of vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 22:08, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Ken Shimizu

Japanese pornographic film actor. His claim to vitality does not look properly sourced.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 02:15, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:03, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
3. --Thi (talk) 09:51, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support --Makkool (talk) 18:54, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose for now as the proposal seems more based on content issues with the article itself rather than his actual level of vitality. I think in this case before being proposed, the article needs work with sourcing to verify its vitality, along with needing major updates since the career section does seem very out-of-date. Iostn (talk) 20:25, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Mississippi John Hurt

Probably the biggest person whose career got revived thanks to the American folk music revival.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:10, 4 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add either Thomas A. Dorsey, The Dixie Hummingbirds, or Blind Willie Johnson

I think we can squeeze one more gospel act on here, but unfortunately I’m not sure which of these three I want to add.

My first option was Thomas A Dorsey. I have frequently heard of him referred to as the Father of Gospel Music. Our article claims that he’s written 3,000 songs, including “Peace in the Valley” and “Take My Hand, Precious Lord”, the latter being the favorite song of Martin Luther King Jr.  4. Note however that he is rated low-importance on the WikiProject Christian music. (Although he’s also conversely rated as Top-importance on the WikiProject African diaspora.)

My next option is The Dixie Hummingbirds. Rated high-importance on the WikiProject Christian music, they are probably the most well-known jubilee quartet. They have inspired Jackie Wilson  5 and James Brown  4, backed Paul Simon  5 in his song “Loves Me Like a Rock”, and their rendition of Amazing Grace  5 is in the Grammy Hall of Fame.

My third option is Blind Willie Johnson. So, he’s a bit of a curveball; I know to a lot of people, Johnson is a blues musician first and foremost. I’m advocating him because unlike his fellow Texan Blind Lemon Jefferson, all of Johnson’s records had a religious bent to them. His songs include “In My Time of Dying”, “It’s Nobody’s Fault but Mine”, “John the Revelator”, and the one that went to outer space on the Voyager “Dark Was the Night, Cold Was the Ground”.

Support Thomas A. Dorsey

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 07:18, 4 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Support The Dixie Hummingbirds

Support Blind Willie Johnson (please indicate if you want to put him in the R&B section)

1. Probably under R&B as he does seems to be more frequently described as such Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Miguel Ángel Juárez. Add Manuel Belgrano  5

Swapping a lesser president for Belgrano, arguably Argentina's most important founding father after San Martín.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 17:27, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Major omission. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:54, 5 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 01:03, 6 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add The Specials

Leading drivers of second-wave ska. Their label 2 Tone Records is the namesake of the Two-tone music genre.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:53, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Allen Klein

An extremely controversial manager. Associated with Sam Cooke  5, The Beatles  3, and The Rolling Stones  4.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:40, 5 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Russell Simmons

Yes, we got plenty of hip-hop executives on here (including fellow Def Jam founder Rick Rubin  5), but I still feel like he’s pretty important.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 03:36, 6 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Norman Granz

Founder of Verve Records and manager of Ella Fitzgerald  4.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 11:10, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Larry Donovan (bridge jumper)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

American bridge jumper. Zero interwikis. His popularity did not carry on after his death.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:37, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Not seeing the vitality. QuicoleJR (talk) 14:01, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Brodie is enough --Makkool (talk) 18:54, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 20:05, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Steve-O and Ryan Dunn

We probably don't need four people from Jackass.

Support

1. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 18:37, 7 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Hanif Al Husaini (talk) 01:58, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Support both --Makkool (talk) 18:54, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
4. Support Ryan Dunn, oppose Steve-O. Per 49p. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:25, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Support both czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Oppose For Steve-O Removal, Support For Ryan Dunn Removal I believe that Steve-O is vital enough to be on the list because I think people genuinely know him to be one of the most "shocking" and "gross" stunt performers in the 2000s or 2010s. Regardless of the amount of people from Jackass, I do believe Steve-O's notability outside of the series is well known. Ryan Dunn (RIP) is extreme weak as his career and legacy outside was little compared to the others. Comparing the view counts, I don't think he's very notable. 49p (talk) 03:31, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Oppose Steve-O, support Ryan Dunn removal per 49p. Steve-O has become notable enough in his own right to deserve a slot here. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:04, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Sam Gilliam

He seems somewhat important. I am not an art scholar.-TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. -TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 21:57, 7 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Stephen Thomas Erlewine

Online music critic, who isn't especially popular or influential. AllMusic would be a more vital article than him.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 19:27, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Iostn (talk) 21:06, 8 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Swap with AllMusic, otherwise support. SailorGardevoir (talk) 21:27, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Felix Hausdorff

From the article: "[He] is considered to be one of the founders of modern topology and who contributed significantly to set theory, descriptive set theory, measure theory, and functional analysis." He was also a prolific name giver, for instance, Hausdorff completion, Hausdorff convergence, Hausdorff density, Hausdorff dimension, Hausdorff distance, Hausdorff gap, Hausdorff maximal principle, Hausdorff measure, Hausdorff metric, Hausdorff moment problem, Hausdorff paradox, Hausdorff space, Hausdorff–Young inequality and the Baker–Campbell–Hausdorff formula.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:29, 8 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Bernardine Dohrn  5 for Fusako Shigenobu

We list two separate members of the Weather Underground under "terrorism" - Dohrn and Bill Ayers  5. The WUO was never particularly influential or long-lasting, which makes devoting two slots under a sub-section that only has 16 entries to begin with rather questionable/US-centric. Bill Ayres, leaving aside wherever or not he should be listed there or somewhere else, I think is the more notable of the two and his notability extends beyond that in of itself, which leaves Bernardine Dohrn to be removed. Fusako Shigenobu was one of the leading members of the Arab-Japanese Red Army which was active for much longer and way more high-profile on the world stage.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 00:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
2. makes sense, per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 04:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:29, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Yigal Amir

Assassinated Yitzhak Rabin  5, who had signed the Oslo Accords in an attempt to end the Israel-Palestine conflict, and is arguably responsible for derailing the peace process and preventing a two-state solution as a result.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 00:29, 9 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Nam June Paik

Very influential in installation and performance art, considered a founder of Video art  5.

Support

1. As nom. Iostn (talk) 17:41, 9 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Canonical reference for video art czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Some geographers

Add Friedrich Ratzel

Friedrich Ratzel was a pioneering figure in Geopolitics  5 and Human geography  5, known for his concept of Lebensraum. His ideas shaped the understanding of territorial expansion and the interaction between geography and politics. However, the Nazi Party distorted his concept to justify aggressive expansionism during World War II. Despite this misuse, Ratzel's contributions remain influential in understanding the relationship between geography, politics, and human societies.

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 18:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

• @GeogSage:, these proposals might interest you! The Blue Rider 18:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Add Rudolf Kjellén

Rudolf Kjellén, a Swedish geographer, is renowned for taking Ratzel's concept of Geopolitik into an independent field. He introduced pivotal concepts such as organicism to the nature of political entities, emphasized regionalism, and further expanded upon Ratzel's initial concepts. Kjellén's ideas were later appropriated by Karl Haushofer and utilized by the Nazi Party.

Support

1. As nominator. The Blue Rider 18:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support per nom.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:11, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:30, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Some More geographers

Add Waldo R. Tobler

Waldo Tobler is most known for coining what has come to be known as Tobler's first law of geography, as well as his less well known Tobler's second law of geography. He is also well known for Tobler's hiking function, and several map projections, such as Tobler hyperelliptical projection. His body of work is highly influential. He was the first one to publish a paper on the possibility of using computers to aid in the map production process, created analytical cartography, and was influential in the literature surrounding thematic maps like choropleths.

Support

1. As nominator.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. The Blue Rider 19:42, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add William Garrison (geographer)

William Garrison is known for leading the quantitative revolution in geography, which included applying computers and statistics to spatial problems. His graduate students included Brian Berry, Duane Marble, William Bunge, Michael Dacey, Arthur Getis, and of course, Waldo R. Tobler, who took his methods/teaching and became notable in the discipline.

Support

1. As nominator.GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 19:31, 11 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Wendy Carlos

As I've said earlier, there are some big omissions among electronic musician, and she is one of them. She is known for pioneering work with Moog and produced one of the first well-known electronic music albums in 1968. As an aside, I was also going to suggest Delia Derbyshire  5 but it seems she is listed under Western art music - Composers instead.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:22, 13 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom --EleniXDD※Talk 08:25, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I say this as someone who loves her work and has a copy of Switched-On Bach but Carlos is not in the same ballpark as the other artists we list. Most of her discography isn't even in-print or licensed to digital platforms anymore. Artists is such an oversaturated category and we shouldn't be listing artists that the vast majority of people in the world haven't heard of unless they have a demonstrable legacy that clearly lasts to this very day. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:37, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   I wouldn’t use Carlos’s stubborn refusal to put her music online as evidence against her vitality. It was completely impossible to listen to Prince on Youtube until he died, and I’m pretty sure he was a level 4 before that. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:55, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   Yea but that wasn't my only point. Prince is a household name. Wendy Carlos is a deep cut even in the electronic music world. Aurangzebra (talk) 03:11, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

   Streaming/licensing aside, vitality isn't the same thing as overall fame, it also counts influence and importance to the field. Iostn (talk) 16:15, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Max Richter

Maybe one of the biggest classical composers around right now.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Big fan. The Blue Rider 22:48, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Way too early to say if he will be vital. No major musical awards won yet, relatively few interwikis, and no clear signs of worldwide renown. There are a ton of similar artists who I think deserve a slot here first and even those I would vote Oppose. One such example is Ludwig Göransson who has more interwikis, more than 3x as many daily pageviews, and an entire Wiki page dedicated to his awards and nominations. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:32, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Recentism. Agreed with Aurangzebra. czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Mike Oldfield

Creator of one of the most culturally recognizable instrumental works of the late 20th century.

Support

1. As nom Iostn (talk) 20:55, 12 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 22:23, 13 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Not really seeing the vitality upon a quick glance through his Wiki article. Yes, Tubular Bells is widely recognized but I think that's more so because of The Exorcist  5. When I hear that track, I think The Exorcist, not Mike Oldfield or Tubular Bells. I don't think most people would even know who composed that track or the name of the album it was on even though it is recognizable. Aurangzebra (talk) 04:26, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   Tubular Bells seems to be more widely associated with the Exorcist in the US, in the UK it is a lot more well-known independently of that. I did consider adding Tubular Bells separately on its own to musical works but there have already been a lot of proposals there lately and I was not sure if it would pass. Iostn (talk) 16:26, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

   That makes sense. Maybe it's American bias but I hadn't heard of the names Mike Oldfield or Tubular Bells before reading this post and I consider myself fairly well-versed in music personalities. Would reconsider my vote with further input from others. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:03, 16 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Philosophers proposals (mainly addressing sysbias)

As it stands, contemporary philosophers (Wikipedia:Vital_articles/Level/5/People/Philosophers,_historians,_political_and_social_scientists#Late_modern_(after_AD_1800)) is very Euro/US-dominated, to the extent that Asia, the most populous continent only has 11 entries listed and nearly all the entries under "Americas" are North American. As such, this is going to mainly be for proposals to remove some of the more questionable Western picks in favour of adding some ommissions from the rest of the world.

Swap David Gauthier  5 for José Vasconcelos

Gauthier seems to be one of the weakest picks for the Americas, with low pageviews and nothing much on his influence. José Vasconcelos' ideas had a big influence on Mexico (both culturally and on government policy) following the Mexican Revolution.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add José Enrique Rodó

"For more than a century now, Ariel has been an extraordinarily influential and enduring essay in Latin American letters and culture due to a combination of specific cultural, literary, and political circumstances"

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Jiddu Krishnamurti

Highly and long-influential lasting to this day, note the very high number of pageviews and interwikis.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Wow, didn't realize that he had been omitted. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Major philosopher, major omission czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add U. G. Krishnamurti

No relation the the former, and also an influential figure (although less so)

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Byung-Chul Han

Maybe a somewhat recentist pick, but he is definitely someone who has became a big name as of late due to the relevance of his writings to 21st century society.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Swap Kazimierz Ajdukiewicz for Franz Brentano

Kazimierz Ajdukiewicz seems to have easily one of the lowest pageviews here, so I'm proposing a swap for Franz Brentano, who is mentioned as a major influence on the page for the historical school which the former belonged to.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 04:14, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Eino Kaila

Even lower pageviews than Ajdukiewicz.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Philippe Lacoue-Labarthe

Low pageviews and nothing here really to assert influence.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove David Stove

Only really seems important for holding a competition where he declared himself winner and for being an openly racist bastard.

Support

1. Nom Iostn (talk) 18:40, 14 March 2024 (UTC)
2. --Makkool (talk) 18:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 08:41, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:31, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Olaus Petri

A major contributor to the Protestant reformation in Sweden. We already list Mikael Agricola  5, who was a similar figure in Finland, so I propose that we list Olaus Petri as well.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 19:45, 14 March 2024 (UTC)

Propose

Discuss

Australian writers

Similarly to Australian activists, there has been prominent bloat in the writers section for Australian authors, both prose writers and poets. We list only 2 Australian writers in V4, when in V5 we have over 40. I have selected a few for your consideration to remove. Prose writer s only for now, I'll propose poet articles at a later time.

Remove David Ireland (author)

The least amount of page views of these. Article mentions him being notable for only 1 novel.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Thomas Alexander Browne

Low page views, and mostly known for only 1 novel as well.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Steele Rudd

Low page views. Known for only 1 short story collection.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Henry Handel Richardson

Seems to be less notable or influential than the other woman writers from Australia in the list.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Christina Stead

Mostly known for 1 novel The Man Who Loved Children, which we don't list in V5.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Colin Thiele

Distinguished children's author, but seems less vital than the other Australian children's authors. The article doesn't mention any works that had an impact to Australian literature, or won prestigious awards.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Bradley Trevor Greive

Commercially successful author of gift books, with funny animal photos with captions (The Blue Day Book). I hadn't never heard of these, but the books seem well known. I don't think the author behind them is known, or vital, enough this list.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Morris West

Best-selling novelist, also outside Australia. He doesn't seem to have won any notable awards for his fiction, unlike many of the other writers we list.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Paul Jennings (Australian author)

Children's writer, whose stories were adapted into the internationally known TV series Round the Twist. It seems like a case, where the author is much less known outside Australia than the show is.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Matthew Reilly

Best-selling action writer. Seems like a similar author to Lee Child, which we don't list in V5.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. I have actually read most of his books, as well as most of Lee Child's. Staying out of this one. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Remove Liane Moriarty

She actually has the highest page view count of these, but hear me out. She seems to be a highly popular author right now, but including her could be a recentist choice. In 20 years she might not be as influential. Another similarly successful woman writer we don't list in Gillian Flynn.

Support

1. As nom. --Makkool (talk) 17:47, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 21:57, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:33, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Pau Gasol  5 and Hakeem Olajuwon  5 to Non-U.S. Men

Gasol is Spanish, and Olajuwon is Nigerian, but both are listed as Americans Maybemintz (talk) 22:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom, Maybemintz (talk) 22:29, 15 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support Gasol Hakeem is trickier because he attended an American college and played for the USMNT _pbp 15:28, 22 March 2024 (UTC)
3. S Gasol/O Olajuwon because of his international play notability. Hakeem has minimal notability attributable to international affiliations.--TonyTheTiger (T / C / WP:FOUR / WP:CHICAGO / WP:WAWARD) 15:50, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

1. You know you can just move them yourself. Although I am slightly against moving Olajuwon since he has US citizenship, and he never represented Nigeria as an adult. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:00, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

   Just moved Gasol. SailorGardevoir (talk) 23:07, 15 March 2024 (UTC)

Various music removals

Remove Nigel North

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Known as a lute player and musicologist - doesn't really seem to stand out much and seems a lot less important than the other lutenist listed next to him.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 22:18, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom Aurangzebra (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Makkool (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 10:20, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Velvel Pasternak

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Musciologist, again nothing here seems that remarkable. Very low pageviews as well.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 22:18, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
2. 3 pageviews/day is crazy. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Per nom Makkool (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 10:21, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Kate Smith

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Popular during WW2, and wouldn't really stand out much other than that if her performance of God Bless America didn't become popular during sports games - which, against wasn't a song originally composed by her. On a worldwide basis, I don't think she makes the cut.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 22:18, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Support. Impactful enough in the US to warrant consideration with various honors such as the Presidential Medal of Honor but her legacy has only faded with time and we do need to cut down this list. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above Makkool (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 10:22, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Pērkons (band)

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

No assertion of vitality or influence + low pageviews.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 22:18, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom. Would also consider getting rid of fellow Baltic Vytautas Kernagis  5 who is considered the father of Lithuanian sung poetry but not every father of x needs to be included here especially when none of their works have articles themselves. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above Makkool (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 10:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Zeebra

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

Presumably listed here to represent Japanese hip hop, which is relatively minor as a cultural force in Japan. He seems to have been resonably popular in Japan in the 2000s but lasting vitality beyond that, as one of the top 50k Wikipedia articles to focus on feels very tenuous.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 22:18, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Per nom. Same as above, not every pioneer/father of x needs to be listed especially when the x in question doesn't even have that much national relevance. None of his works have wiki articles. Aurangzebra (talk) 23:19, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Per above Makkool (talk) 23:22, 16 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:42, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
5. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 10:23, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Remove Johnny Hodges

Nominating on the principle that we don't need to list every "most influential X", he is described as "one of the definitive alto saxophone players of the big band era" but he himself seems less vital than some of the people he played with. Definitely notable, but I don't think vital in his own right.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 20:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:34, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Abdel Karim Karouma

A semi-stub on an early 20th century musician that doesn't even have 30 views in the past month. Yeah this is one of the easiest picks.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 20:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:38, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Mahlathini

He performed alongside Mahotella Queens  5, a group of the same genre that is also listed at VA5, and seems to be more vital than him, so considering this section is overquota, I think removal makes sense here.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 20:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:39, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove D2B (band)

Apparently "the number one boy band of all time in Thailand", but other than that there's not much else here to suggest a massive amount of influence. Fairly short-lived as a group and seems to have lower views and interwikis than the other Thai popular music artists listed, I'm inclined to think that this one slipped through based on the "non-English popular music" section being rather uncurated due to the fact it can be hard to assess how truly influential a pop musician is if you are not from the culture they belong to.

Support

1. Nom. Iostn (talk) 19:37, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Makkool (talk) 20:08, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 07:50, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
4. SailorGardevoir (talk) 00:48, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Move Albertus Magnus  5 to philosophers

As far as I’m aware, bold moves (as in putting articles in different sections) is still allowed. I moved Albertus Magnus from the religious figures page to the philosophers page, but @User:Makkool moved him back. Obviously this calls for a proposal to see what everyone else thinks.

Move

1. Admittedly, this is just me skimming through his article, but he seems overall more suited for the philosophers page. I see your edit summary Makkool, but your rationale can easily be applied to Thomas Aquinas. SailorGardevoir (talk) 10:33, 17 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Oh wow, I didn't realize Thomas Aquinas was categorized as a philosopher. The way I've always edited this list is, that I've added theologians to the Religious figures section. If Thomas is with philosophers, so should Albertus absolutely be. Maybe we should move theologians under a separate heading away from other philosophers to make it clearer? Makkool (talk) 11:17, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

   No, I also think that the theologians should be listed under religious figures. I just think that Albertus fell on the philosophy side of the philosophy-theology spectrum. SailorGardevoir (talk) 19:12, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

   I trust you've made the right call. I just wish there could be some clear objective metric, so that this wouldn't be a matter of opinion of us editors. Makkool (talk) 20:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)

Keep

Discuss

Add Chick Corea

Notable omission in the jazz musicians category. Pioneer of jazz fusion and according to his Wikipedia article, "considered to have been one of the foremost pianists of the post-John Coltrane era." Two of the other artists cited in that category are Herbie Hancock  5 and Keith Jarrett  5 who are already VA5 and he has more interwikis than either of them. In fact, he has 51 interwikis which is extremely high for a jazz musician. Some of his compositions such as Spain (instrumental) and 500 Miles High are fairly recognizable and are considered jazz standards that are highly respected and played in the jazz world. He is tied for 4th in the list for most Grammy wins of all time and every other artist in the top 10 is VA5 or higher. He also has an album (Now He Sings, Now He Sobs) in the Grammy Hall of Fame which indicates "lasting qualitative or historical significance." He has 60+ albums with their own Wikipedia articles (either with himself solo or as ringleader of Return to Forever) and multiple works that are considered the greatest jazz albums of all time such as Light as a Feather. Aurangzebra (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Support

1. As nom Aurangzebra (talk) 02:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 02:50, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Definitely a major oversight Iostn (talk) 13:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Add Peter Thiel

I know he sometimes acts like a cartoon villain, but he’s been one of the most influential people in the tech world for close to thirty years now. He is closely related to PayPal, Palantir Technologies, and Facebook and has considerably shaped Silicon Valley politics as an author and investor.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:10, 18 March 2024 (UTC)
2. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. Recentism. Let's see how his legacy stacks against other investors. czar 14:04, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

   He’s been a notable figure since 2002. SailorGardevoir (talk) 18:49, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

Add Věra Chytilová

Czech filmmaker best known for directing and writing the 1966 film Daisies, which in 2022 was voted the 28th greatest film of all time by the Sight & Sound critics poll. Celebrated for her defiant, experimental, and uncompromising approach, she is perhaps the most important figure from the Czechoslovak New Wave after Miloš Forman.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 05:19, 18 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Imbalance in martial arts?

There are currently 15 articles on mixed martial arts, a fairly recent phenomenon. By contrast, there's just one practitioner of taekwondo, four of judo and five of karate, even though taekwondo and judo are in the Olympics and MMA is not. Seems off to me _pbp 21:21, 21 March 2024 (UTC)

I think it sort of makes sense. Though more recent, it is now a global cultural phenomenon and MMA celebs have more impact and presence on our society. I don't even follow MMA and I can name at least 5 fighters. Gun to my head, I couldn't name a single judoka for example. By your logic, we should be listing more wrestlers or archers or even pentathletes (all events at the Olympics as well) since these are all ancient sports. But clearly that wouldn't make sense. Aurangzebra (talk) 20:25, 22 March 2024 (UTC)

I don't exactly watch MMA regularly. I've caught some fight highlights very occasionally. I recognize the names of 12/15 MMA fighters on the list. I recognize the names of 1/4 judokas, 0/5 karate/kickboxing, 0/1 taekwondo, 0/1 aikido, 0/1 muay thai, 0/1 capoeira, 1/5 sumo wrestlers, and 1/9 wrestlers. Even boxing I recognize only 9/43. starship.paint (RUN) 07:14, 23 March 2024 (UTC)

Entertainer removals

Remove May Wirth

Obscure circus performer. 1 interwiki.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 04:16, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Snooki

I don't think she is among the world's most important entertainers. A bit of a flash in the pan.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
7. Vileplume 🍋‍🟩 (talk) 04:17, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Long John Nebel and Major Bowes

I am not one to quibble that much about U.S. overrepresentation, but 26 of 29 people from the Radio Hosts section are American (plus another American-born). Some of these are too local. 1 interwiki

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. Not even V6 material Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:22, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Dan Carlin

Podcaster of recent fame. Arguably not among the present’s most important to begin with.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Robert Emmet Odlum

Maybe jumping from the Brooklyn Bridge is a more important thing that I am aware of, but we have three people whose vitality rests on this act and Steve Brodie (bridge jumper)  5 was the first to do it.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Tex McCrary

Article says he hosted the first radio talk show, Meet Tex and Jinx, but this appears to be a dubious claim. The talk show article does not mention him in the History section. 2 interwikis.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Nev Schulman

His career section does not stand out. He’s behind Catfish: The TV Show for MTV, way past the channel’s prime.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Marc Summers

It seems we have a surfeit of 2000s- early 2010s TV personalities and producers. Like Schulman, none of the shows he's related to are especially popular, have won awards, etc.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. starship.paint (RUN) 09:06, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
5. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)
6. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Joey Stefano  5

It seems he only became known for his death. For gay pornography, we have Casey Donovan (actor)  5.

Support

1. As nominator. Tabu Makiadi (talk) 19:08, 23:40, 23 March 2024 (UTC)
2. per nom GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 02:12, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. Makkool (talk) 07:21, 26 March 2024 (UTC)
4. per nom. Kevinishere15 (talk) 02:29, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

1. I think we can have more gay porn stars. In fact, it’s probably the straight male porn stars that need to be removed. SailorGardevoir (talk) 01:20, 27 March 2024 (UTC)

Discuss

1. We have near gender parity in the Adult/pornography section (14 women and 11 men) even though (as far as I know, for better or worse) women are more prominent in this industry.

Remove Saman Khuda

Since we removed Achaemenes, here’s another guy whose vitality is just “found a dynasty”. There are some differences (the biggest one being that there’s a general agreement that Saman Khuda actually existed), but like Achaemenes, he was never a ruler.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 09:11, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
2. Samanid Empire  5 is enough. starship.paint (RUN) 09:28, 24 March 2024 (UTC)
3. per nom. GeogSage ^{(⚔Chat?⚔)} 21:32, 26 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss

Remove Eze Nri Ìfikuánim

This might not be fair since this article only has two sentences, but I'm not sure what make him vital other being the first Eze of Nri, which we do not list.

Support

1. SailorGardevoir (talk) 05:44, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
2. good point --EleniXDD※Talk 06:31, 30 March 2024 (UTC)
3. Good find. I wonder if there's an easy way to create a list of VA5 articles sorted by page size in bytes to get rid of other obvious candidates like this. Aurangzebra (talk) 06:35, 30 March 2024 (UTC)

Oppose

Discuss