Talk:Fatal dog attacks in the United States

Guidelines for Fatal Dog Attacks in the United States

Incidents to include

Please use these guidelines to determine which fatalities should be included in the article's list. The fatality has 1) coverage in a major newspaper, a national newspaper, or a national magazine 2) media coverage outside the immediate area of the incident 3) impacted laws or legislation 4) involved famous or notable people

Standardization of breed names

Please use these guidelines to help keep breed names accurate, consistent, and organized. Currently, the main page contains a variety of different formats (capitalizations, hyphenations, and sometimes spellings) for breed names. For example, the Labrador Retriever is capitalized in a variety of ways including: Labrador Retriever, Labrador retriever, and labrador retriever. While there are a number of different suggested ways to capitalize and hyphenate breed names, the recommendation of this guideline is to follow the format that the American Kennel Club and United Kennel Club use which is to capitalize all names in a breed name, for example: Labrador Retriever. In the case of mixed breeds, the format is also to capitalize all breed names but not the word "mix", for example: Labrador Retriever-Husky mix. In the case of pit bulls, since "pit bull" is not a proper breed but a dog type (a category of dog consisting of at least 4 breeds as listed on the pit bull Wikipedia page), the proper way to capitalize pit bull is with both names lowercase: pit bull (unless it is the first word in a sentence, or it appears as the beginning word(s) in a list/column, then it would be: Pit bull and "bull" should not be capitalized). If one of the proper pit bull breeds is identified, then all of the names in the breed name would be capitalized (like any other proper breed), for example: American Staffordshire Terrier, American Pit Bull Terrier, and Staffordshire Bull Terrier. If the number of dogs involved in an attack is more than one, for consistency it should be listed as: Breed (2). For example, if two German Shepherd dogs are involved, then it would be listed as German Shepherds (2).

Examples of breed name format, as recommended:

• Labrador Retriever
• Labrador Retriever mix
• Labrador Retriever-Husky mix
• Doberman Pinscher
• American Pit Bull Terrier
• pit bull
• pit bull mix
• mixed breed dog
• pack of dogs

Examples if two dogs of the same or mixed breed are involved in an attack, as recommended:

• German Shepherds (2)
• Doberman Pinschers (2)
• mixed breed dogs (2)
• pack of dogs (2)
• pit bulls (2)
• Doberman Pinschers (2), German Shepherds (2), pit bull mixes (2)

Identification of breed(s) involved in incidents

The dog breed(s) or dog type(s) identified in the "Category of Dog" field should match the breed information provided in a news or law enforcement source. In the case that there is a variance (or disagreement) of the breed(s) involved in one or several news sources, then both breeds should be listed in the "Category of Dog" field. For example, if one news source describes the dog as a "mixed breed dog" and another news source describes the dog as a "Mastiff", then the "Category of Dog" field should include both descriptions as: "Mastiff or mixed breed dog". In this case, both news sources should be provided as references - one source to substantiate the breed as a "Mastiff" and the second source to substantiate the breed as a "mixed breed dog".

Note: In the case that a dog's description includes multiple (three more) breeds, then by definition it is a mixed breed dog and should be listed as a "mixed breed dog" in the "Category" field; however, the various breeds (if known) can be described in the "Circumstances" field.

After investigation, sometimes there is a final issued statement about the breed. In such an instance, the breed column should be corrected. The various earlier mentioned breeds MAY be noted in the circumstances, but should NOT be left remaining in the breed column.

Requested move 21 April 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. In this discussion a small majority of editors oppose the move, but consensus is not ascertained by counting votes but by the quality of the arguments given on the various sides of an issue, as viewed through the lens of Wikipedia policy.

In support of the move editors argued that the article would be more aligned with the sources, and better able to contain relevant information on the topic, if the scope was broadened from a list.

In opposition to the move editors presented three primary arguments; that this is a backdoor to deletion, in contradiction of the recent AfD result; that the current title is consistent with other articles; and that the topic of fatal dog attacks in the United States is already covered by Fatal dog attacks#United States.

This first argument was successfully rebutted by editors who pointed out that the AfD's have been consistently closed as "no consensus", meaning that it's result can not be interpreted as endorsing the status quo. As such, I fully discounted those arguments.

The second argument was stronger, but editors supporting the move addressed this by pointing out that the concern is the topic; consistency is applicable for articles with similar subjects, but the proposal is to change the subject from a list article to a prose article. As such, while I didn't fully discount this argument, I did not give it much weight.

The third argument was also stronger, but was rebutted by supporters who pointed out that child articles are common practice for long articles per WP:SPLIT, that these lists originated as child articles of Fatal dog attacks, and implicitly that the article on the global subject focuses too much on the United States, an issue that could be addressed by moving some of that content to a child article.

As such, I see a rough consensus to move this article based on strength of argument. However, this should not be seen as a consensus to remove the list content outright; instead, the information in the list should be maintained, either in prose form, as-is, or as a mix of the two. Disputes on this should be resolved through talk page discussion or through dispute resolution processes. (closed by non-admin page mover) BilledMammal (talk) 03:49, 13 May 2024 (UTC)

---

List of fatal dog attacks in the United States → Fatal dog attacks in the United States – Following the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of fatal dog attacks in the United States (3rd nomination), concerns about the content of the page might be alleviated by a suggestion made in the discussion to move this to the non-list title proposed here, which already redirects to this title, allowing the focus of the article to be on the phenomenon, and the list to be incidental to this. BD2412 T 02:08, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

• Note: Credit where credit is due; the move proposal was made by KoA (framed as a merge proposal for reasons further explained in the discussion, though there is technically not an existing merge topic at the suggested title). BD2412 T 02:11, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
• Note: Dogs WikiProject notified: [1]. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:15, 23 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support as I proposed at the linked AfD. I'll try to get time to comment further later if needed, but as mentioned there, the topic itself is notable, but not necessarily as a list topic. Focusing on how sources summarize the overall subject, especially in prose would help ground this subject. A list/table could be maintained at the new target, but it would need to be justified more rather than relying on WP:INDISCRIMINATE use of sources. Right now, the list exists here as an artifact of this being a list article, so treating the subject as a regular article would let the entire subject be handled in a WP:DUE manner.

Part of this also involves the tensions with WP:NLIST that keep bringing this list article back to AfD repeatedly. The move would ideally break the back of that issue and put it in a place where it ideally wouldn't be back at AfD again on top of the above I mentioned. KoA (talk) 03:35, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Just adding on that I came in as an outside commenter at the AfD, so I don't really have a horse in the race on the subject.

The whole point of the move though is that the topic is beyond being a list and becomes pigeonholed being trying to keep it in a list article along with the more ancillary list maintenance issues. Let the secondary sources that do address US specific issues do the summarizing of the subject so it can be covered expansively as a regular article. That's the opposite of "backdoor deletion" as comments have misattributed below, especially considering I was not a delete vote at the AfD. Regardless of it dealing with controversial topics, editors at the page can figure out what is WP:DUE after a move without being limited by only being a list article. KoA (talk) 22:57, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

Just to summarize the focus behind this move now that I can sit down on it for a bit, this is a WP:PAG-focused move. The previous AfD (and ones before that) have repeatedly been closed as no consensus that this satisfied WP:NLIST, not keep. There was not consensus for deletion either, so we're past of the point of arguing the page should be kept as-is. The time for that would have been justifying a straight keep at AfD.

Instead we're left figuring out what needs to be done to address that lack of clear notability for the list topic, and that is the starting point. This proposal is just meant as a bare minimum to alleviate the notability problem that comes with this recurrently coming to AfD along with allowing the topic to be fully described. Functionally, this is just a title change that let's the article be expanded to include additional narrative, especially from secondary sources.

Fatal_dog_attacks would be the other potential home for this, but since it sounds like this content was partly split out from there at one point, that wouldn't be a likely home for this article. If you look at that article though, there is a lot of content on the United States. Between the AfD and what you can already read at the fatal dog attacks article, it's pretty clear dog attacks in the US is a notable subject. Functionally, this move would make this a general article that could be expanded rather than a restricted list article. If someone thinks the general topic still isn't notable after the move, I supposed they could bring the new article to AfD, but deletion seems even less likely in that case than in this current list article because notability of the general topic would be even clearer in terms of scope.

There have been WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS arguments about other list articles on dog attacks, but that is irrelevant. We're concerned about the topic at hand, not what other conventions other articles have used. That Fatal_dog_attacks#United_States_of_America exists means that article would function as a parent article, and the proposed move target would act as a child article in terms of WP:SPLIT. We set up function child articles all the time when topic titles are split out like that, so the existence of the parent article isn't a reason against the move. If anything, the original split from the global article going straight to a list article instead of a general one has caused problems we're somewhat locked into compared to if it had just started out as as general article. KoA (talk) 23:06, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: This is part of a series of articles with the same naming configuration, including List of fatal dog attacks in Austria, List of fatal dog attacks in Canada, List of fatal dog attacks in Germany, List of fatal dog attacks in the United Kingdom, and List of fatal dog attacks. Since naming conventions favor uniformity to make it easier to find information, retaining the current name makes the most sense. Also, the reasons given for the move do not fall under those listed on WP:MOVE. Rather, is a back-door way to delete much of the article's content after an inconclusive AfD (I am not saying this is the motive of the nominator but that its outcome would be the same based KOA's comments from the AfD). Finally, the main reason this article has had many AfD is pro and anti-pit bull bias, not whether or not it meets WP:LIST. Changing the article's name is not going to make the factions go away. Rublamb (talk) 04:54, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
• Support per KoA. Gråbergs Gråa Sång (talk) 08:46, 21 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose I agree that this feels like a backdoor to deletion. We already have the article Fatal dog attacks, and it does not seem to me that the coverage of the phenomenon of fatal dog attacks in the US specifically is distinct or voluminous enough that it can't be contained in that broader article. Colin M (talk) 19:53, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

  You are correct that a narrative article already exists. It appears that this topic started with the article you mention, Fatal dog attacks. That led to List of fatal dog attacks. As that article grew longer, some countries were split off into new list articles, including this article. Rublamb (talk) 00:43, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• Support. I agree with KoA. I also feel that a regular page is better suited as a way to cover this information, than is a list. In other words, I think of "fatal dog attacks in the US" as a phenomenon, as opposed to a set of events, because there can be context to one attack, in a way that differs from some other attack. (Sometimes, it might be primarily breed-related, whereas other times, it may be primarily related to human behavior, and there's nothing encyclopedic about oversimplifying that.) I have no concerns about lack of notability, nor about notability or content forking in regards to having a standalone page for a single nation, especially given the size of the topic area. I also want to say that, for me, I do not in any way see this as a prelude to deletion, because I do believe that this is a suitable topic for a standalone page, and I would oppose page deletion (just as I endorsed keeping the list page). --Tryptofish (talk) 21:12, 21 April 2024 (UTC)

  The question really isn't should there be a regular page or a list article, but what is the correct name for this article as it stands. Rublamb (talk) 00:48, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  The proposed move is based on the assumption that – of course! – the page would be revised accordingly. Otherwise, all requested moves between list space and article space would default to "not possible". --Tryptofish (talk) 20:54, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  And I hope that whoever closes this discounts the WP:ABF arguments that those who support the rename and rewrite are just trying via some sooper-seecret conspiracy to get the page deleted. I don't see anyone here arguing that the topic isn't notable as a list. The argument is that it's more encyclopedic to present it as plain text. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:11, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  KOA said "the topic itself is notable, but not necessarily as a list topic." Even if an article would be more encyclopedic, nothing is stopping anyone from writing Fatal dog attacks in the United States and keeping the list separate. We have Primates and a List of primates, for example. I don't think that's a good idea, because I disagree about it being "more encyclopedic" to write an article on this topic, but the point is that it is not a good argument for moving the page when it has already been established at the AfD that this is a notable list topic. -- JFHutson (talk) 22:33, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  KoA said that in the context of making this a regular page would make the perennial AfD arguments about notability go away, not in the context of setting the page up for a fall. And I'm supporting the change as someone who commented "keep" for the list at the AfD. These aren't attempts to delete the list page. They are attempts to improve it. And they aren't attempts to argue that the subject isn't notable, no matter how hard some editors try to find an ulterior motive. It's worth noting what the AfD close, [2], actually said. No consensus to delete, but also no consensus against changing it from a list to a regular page. My argument above is that "I think of "fatal dog attacks in the US" as a phenomenon, as opposed to a set of events, because there can be context to one attack, in a way that differs from some other attack. (Sometimes, it might be primarily breed-related, whereas other times, it may be primarily related to human behavior, and there's nothing encyclopedic about oversimplifying that.)" Your counter-argument is simply "I disagree about it being "more encyclopedic" to write an article on this topic". Your example about the list of primates actually supports my argument. Individual species of primates are elements in a set of all primates. We typically have standalone pages for all such species. Individual fatal dog attacks that happened in the US are not so much elements in a larger set, but examples of a larger phenomenon. Each individual attack does not necessarily merit a standalone page about it. The individual list elements are not all-inclusive, and a list format is less useful than regular text for contextualizing the significance or the best way to understand each attack. The list is organized primarily by date, as though the date is the most informative thing to know about each attack – yet it makes more sense to give more attention to the role of breed characteristics versus the role of how humans interact with dogs. And there is no reason not to have an embedded list within a regular page. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:08, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  The topic List of fatal dog attacks in the United States is either notable or it's not, and article content does not determine notability. The closer should not have noted some kind of consensus on content when the discussion was (or should have been) about notability and WP:NOT. A requested move is also not the right way to change the content of an article, but at least we're getting closer, and I'll continue to explain why the article should remain a list. Individual dog attacks are elements in the set of dog attacks. I'm not sure how the fact that they have different contexts from one another is relevant. I'm not sure how being examples of a larger phenomenon is relevant either. Homicides in California are also examples of a larger phenomenon. List elements do not have to be notable. As for the organization of the list, that's another content decision that could go several ways. I don't think it's a bad presentation. The most important thing about each list element isn't always the way you organize a list. Organizing it by breed doesn't seem workable since some were several dogs, or an unknown breed, and organizing by how humans interact with dogs would be subjective. -- JFHutson (talk) 00:00, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  Why are you still acting like I'm arguing that the subject isn't notable? When you say that it's just a set, the same way that primate species are elements of a set, I feel like you are just saying the opposite of what I say, without engaging with why I said it. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:19, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  OK, let's forget about notability for a minute. You linked to the article sets, which talks about a set as a collection of different things. Are you saying that there is no collection of different dog attacks in the US, which can be considered together? Would this apply to all the Lists of animal fatalities? -- JFHutson (talk) 01:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  Here's what I actually said: "In other words, I think of "fatal dog attacks in the US" as a phenomenon, as opposed to a set of events, because there can be context to one attack, in a way that differs from some other attack." You can caricature that as having been something else, that I claimed that there can be no such thing as a collection of different dog attacks, but it's not what I've been saying. Once again, my point is that it is more useful, and more nuanced, to examine this "collection" as parts of a phenomenon. One can write about how secondary sources put this collection of events into context. Would it apply to any list of animal fatalities? That depends on what the list is about. It depends on the amount of context that the source material says is involved in those fatalities. There are plenty of reliable sources about how dogs, as domesticated animals, interact with humans in ways that influence aggression. Tapeworms are animals that also kill humans, but reliable sources treat that very differently. --Tryptofish (talk) 18:59, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  I am really honestly trying to understand the argument and I apologize that I'm failing and that my attempts may have felt like I was caricaturing, which was not my intent. I don't agree that it is necessarily more useful to display a discussion of fatal dog attacks in the US than a list of such. I think that both could be useful, depending on what the reader is looking for, and our readers should be allowed to find the list if they so desire, since we've decided it's a notable list topic. So we could have Fatal dog attacks in the United States as a separate article while keeping this list (with a summary style link to the list). You wouldn't need a consensus here to create such an article; the burden would shift to someone who wanted to AfD Fatal dog attacks in the United States. -- JFHutson (talk) 20:50, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  OK, I appreciate that, and that's something I'm happy to work with. At this point, I think it's best for me to flesh out what I would want to do, in the event that this move request gains consensus and I were to try to revise this page. As I've previously said, I am in favor of keeping a list, as an embedded list within the new page. As I see how strongly you and some other editors feel about preserving the existing list, I'm coming to the conclusion that the existing list would remain, as it is now, on the revised page. So the list that you and some other editors care strongly about would be preserved. What would happen is essentially an expansion of what is now the lead section of the list page, followed by a section containing the list. Initially, I might copy, with attribution, some content from other pages. But then, I would want to expand the text with content about dog breeds and the relationship with aggression towards humans, and with content about dog behavior in relation to humans, and perhaps some about US laws that are relevant. So the main way it would change the page is that there would be some new sections, of regular text, between the lead and the section containing the list. In terms of content, there would be more attention to the interplay between dog breeding over time, how dog breeds have been regarded in the US in terms of propensity to violence, and how human conduct influences dog aggression towards humans. Obviously, I would be looking to add source material that is US-specific.

  So with that understanding, the choice is between having two pages, as you just described, with one consisting of the list and the other consisting of what I'm proposing to come before the list – or having both those things on one page, as the move proposal here would do. I would argue in favor of a single page, because there would be less duplication, and because the list has more value when readers can read about the context on the same page, without having to click to a separate page. In addition, that would go a long way towards discouraging yet more AfDs for the list page, because the additional secondary sources would contradict the arguments made by users wanting to delete it. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:30, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  I want to echo some of this about AfDs too. Whether folks like it or not, the last AfD was closed as no consensus. There wasn't an obvious case made for list topic notability to outright keep, but enough said on notability that it wasn't outright delete either. The standalone list topic has its tensions with WP:NLIST as I mentioned at AfD, but once you include it under the broader umbrella of a regular article, those notability issues largely go away and it becomes much more "defendable" from AfD.

  Had the article been closed as keep, these arguments for a move would be less weighty and it would be much easier to say just leave this list article as-is. Repeatedly failing to clearly establish notability though means work like this move is needed to address the structural problem that would not be going away otherwise. KoA (talk) 21:57, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, and all of this is coming from a place of wanting the page to be good, and not from a place of wanting to delete it. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:27, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  Assuming good faith, I have never intended to say that anyone is doing anything other than trying make the page better (even those who wish to delete I assume do so out of a desire to make the encyclopedia better). When I say a backdoor deletion attempt, it's because a decision has been reached on whether a standalone list on this list topic will exist on an NLIST basis, and the requested move is attempting to make the article not be about that list topic. Remember that "Notability is a property of a subject and not of a Wikipedia article," so no change to content (turning this list into an article) should change the notability of the topic "List of fatal dog attacks in the United States." WP:ARTN "No consensus" is reached all the time and allows subjects (including list topics) to continue to be covered by articles on WP. -- JFHutson (talk) 22:47, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  it's because a decision has been reached on whether a standalone list on this list topic will exist on an NLIST basis. Except no such decision was made. The AfD was not closed as keep, but as no consensus. When a subject cannot establish it's notability repeatedly, that's when there are structural problems to address that rarely result in just leaving the article as-is. Since you cite WP:ARTN, that lack clear notability is going to remain because it's a fundamental issue, not something based on what exists in the article at a given time. KoA (talk) 21:50, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

  Thanks for saying that. I feel like those comments created a poisoning the well effect already in terms of what I actually said, and you hit the nail on the head with These aren't attempts to delete the list page. They are attempts to improve it. That's why I talked about issues with pigeonholing above and it being too restrictive on the topic. I've been talking about expanding the page to a regular article strengthening the case for notability. KoA (talk) 05:08, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose. I believe (per Colin M) that a Fatal dog attacks article already exists; in addition, I should point out that article already has a substantial Fatal dog attacks#United States of America subsection discussing various studies on fatal dog attacks in the United States.

Furthermore, I believe (per Rublamb) that renaming the stand-alone list so that it matches the nomenclature of an "article" will have the likely effect of it being deleted since the criteria that allow it to exist as a stand-alone list will no longer apply if is re-labelled as a Wikipedia article. If the renamed article does survive, it will likely be confused with the Fatal dog attacks#United States of America subsection.

Bottom line: If an article is a list, then its title should include "List of...."

If someone really wants an article on "Fatal dog attacks in the United States", just extract the existing Fatal dog attacks#United States of America section into its own article with a reference to this standalone list of fatal dog attacks in the United States. Astro$01 (talk) 02:57, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

As I pointed out above, the proposal assumes the list page would be revised into regular text format. There's nothing wrong with having a summary-style section at the other page, with the main page here. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:54, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

No one has volunteered to convert this list article into a text article. It seems like you are agreeing to a name change based on an unfounded assumption. In contrast, there are numerous editors actively engaged in creating and updating the content of the current list article. There is nothing wrong with having a list article––this is allowed by Wikipedia and is considered a valuable information format. Rublamb (talk) 22:36, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

OK, I volunteer to help, if there is consensus for the move. And I see it as having an embedded list within the page. I agree with you that there is nothing wrong with having a list article. That's why I argued "keep" at the AfD. The point is that the change would be better, not that the list is unacceptable. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:11, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose: the AfD determined that the topic satisfies NLIST. This is an attempt at a backdoor deletion. It is possible to write a separate article on the topic, but the current list is manifestly a list, it has been determined to be notable as a list, and it should be named as such. If you are arguing in this move discussion that the list topic is not notable, then you are making an argument for deletion. --JFHutson (talk) 22:01, 22 April 2024 (UTC)
• Oppose: I also see this as just another backdoor deletion attempt. There is no need to deprive Wikipedia readers of this data and the naming of these kinds of lists should remain consistent, clearly specifying "List of". See List of fatal shark attacks in the United States or List of fatal bear attacks in North America to consider two other lists of fatal attacks that have nothing to do with dogs. The individual details of the attacks are interesting in themselves and could be used to generate maps, timelines, and other data summaries. Veritas Aeterna (talk) 23:06, 22 April 2024 (UTC)

  Those two examples of other list pages are different, because dogs are domesticated animals, whereas sharks and bears, well, are not. The nuances over things like breed characteristics and dog-human interactions are very significant matters to cover in content about dogs, but are irrelevant to sharks or bears. --Tryptofish (talk) 00:38, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  Consistancy in naming articles is about ease of finding information, not about nuanced differences in their content. But even if you are right, what about the five other articles that are about dog attacks that will still have the naming configuration? Rublamb (talk) 01:12, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  Really? Both lists include species information and information on the bear/shark-human interactions. I am again struggling to comprehend your argument. -- JFHutson (talk) 01:14, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  Yes, really. As for the other list pages about dog attacks in other parts of the world, WP:OTHERSTUFF. We have tons of reliable sourcing about dogs having been domesticated by humans, and having complex interactions with humans that have significance for aggression towards humans, for millennia. Can you show me similar source material about bears and sharks having been domesticated to a similar extent? --Tryptofish (talk) 19:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  WP:OTHERSTUFF applies when discussing whether or not an article should exist. This is about the best name for an article as it currently exists. The articles on dog attacks in other countries are relevant to this discussion because they all are secondary articles of List of fatal dog attacks, split off when the main list article became too long. WP:CONSISTENT clearly says, "We strive to make titles on Wikipedia as consistent as possible with other titles on similar subjects. We follow patterns from article titles for similar topics to the extent that this is practical." I suggest you create the article you propose and, then, come back with a merger proposal. That way, everyone can clearly see what you have in mind. Rublamb (talk) 19:43, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  It's about the best name for the page, not the best name assuming that the page is going to stay as it currently exists. If we're going to suggest what one another should do, then I'll suggest that you re-read what I said here: [3]. --Tryptofish (talk) 19:54, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  I made my suggestion not to be snarky, but based on your stated goals (which are fine with me). As far as I can tell, the change needs to come first. WP:TITLECHANGES says an article's name in "Wikipedia describes current usage but cannot prescribe a particular usage or invent new names." The underlining is mine. And WP:LISTNAME says "common practice is to entitle list articles as List of ___". The current name conforms to common practice and describes current usage. So unless there is a significant rewrite or another article to merge with, there really are no guidelines or policies that I find to support a name change at this time. Again, no issues with improving the content; sorry if I have not been clear with that. Rublamb (talk) 23:04, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  I've just spent some time rereading WP:Article titles, from which you just quoted, as well as WP:Requested moves, WP:Moving a page, and WP:Move review. Nowhere can I find anything that forbids a move between a list article and a regular article. It's entirely within policy and guidelines to propose such a move. And where you quote from the title policy page, the full quote is: "Although titles for articles are subject to consensus, do not invent names or use extremely uncommon names as a means of compromising between opposing points of view. Wikipedia describes current usage but cannot prescribe a particular usage or invent new names." When that refers to "describes current usage", it's referring to Usage (language), and saying that we should use language as it is currently practiced, rather than making terms up. It's not about having the title reflect a particular version of a page at a particular point in time, and it's not about forbidding a page move in order to improve page content. --Tryptofish (talk) 23:39, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

  It is not forbidden, because consensus is always an option. However, nowhere in WP:MOVE or WP:TITLECHANGES does it suggest changing an article's name in anticipation of future modifications, and the article's title currently conforms to WP:LISTNAME. Even with your planned expansion, the list article format and title still might be the best fit. FL class articles often have extensive introductory sections; this is considered the best practice for FL. However, without the new content to review, it is not possible to say which title will be a better fit. Nothing against you and your vision for this article, but I have seen way too many cases where the result of an AfD is to merge a list article into a "regular" article only to have that list's content deleted later because it is too detailed or too long for the article's text, with editors correctly talking about balance an undue weight. Lists have a lot of haters, especially lists in table format. Rublamb (talk) 00:56, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

  When the argument includes "Lists have lots of haters", there's probably not much I can do to allay anyone's fears. (Likewise for implying that the fact that policies and guidelines don't discuss something means that we discourage the thing that wasn't discussed.) The best way to prevent a list section from being deleted from some future version of the revised page is to continue watchlisting the page, and oppose such an action when and if the time comes. I've already said that such a deletion is not my intention, so I don't see any value in my saying it over and over again. And, given the way this discussion has been going, I have to question why I should go to the considerable effort of writing a draft version when I'm not at all sure that there is consensus for it, and when I have every reason to expect that if I do go to all that effort, some editors will just look for reasons to say that they don't like it. Especially since I've already described what I would see the page as ([4]). --Tryptofish (talk) 20:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

  For Likewise for implying that the fact that policies and guidelines don't discuss something means that we discourage the thing that wasn't discussed., that's a very good description of WP:NOTBURO policy. KoA (talk) 23:23, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Comment I'm not sure what this merge would actually involve/look like. I see comments stating the list would be kept, then how would this result in any change at all? Traumnovelle (talk) 23:53, 23 April 2024 (UTC)

Described here: [5]. --Tryptofish (talk) 20:05, 24 April 2024 (UTC)

To add on to Tryptofish's comment, when it comes to change of the content itself, the key thing is that it would allow for focus on narrative expansion. To start though, it really would just be a title change to take care of the notability issues with the current title. That's why it was initially considered relatively uncontroversial and low-effort from a WP:PAG perspective for the underlying problems it would address. KoA (talk) 21:55, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Oppose: A regular page already exists for information about fatal dog attacks, including a section specifically covering the situation in the USA. Given this existing structure, I believe it is unnecessary to make changes. This list is a component of Template:Lists of fatal dog attacks and should remain as such for clarity and ease of access. Wikigrund (talk) 09:48, 25 April 2024 (UTC)

Notability was not established at the AfD with the no consensus close, and hasn't been for years, so we're past the point of arguing keep the page as-is (i.e., a keep decision). What had much less dispute is that the general topic (not the list topic) was notable.

As for Fatal_dog_attacks#United_States_of_America, this would become a standard daughter article of that and is pretty typical when a notable topic exists within a within a larger one like that. If someone really thinks the US topic is not notable (implying the list topic is even less notable), we could always do a merge to the topic you list, but that seems less feasible than the proposed move and even less feasible than leaving the article here as-is. KoA (talk) 21:45, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

@KoA: Under normal circumstances, I would agree with you about the series of no-consensus AfDs. In past AfDs, the challenge was not made based notability of the subject per se, but by saying that the list contains trivial or news-only content. During the most recent AfD, the sources, lack of sources, and bias were also questioned. Most participants in the AfD seemed focused on activism, rather than Wikipedia's guidelines. As a result, there was little response when the reasons given by the nominator were mostly addressed by neutral editors. I don't see how the trivial, news-only, or bias/activism issues go away by changing the article's name. The list and its content still have to be defendable whether it is embedded or in a list article. The major difference between the two is the promotion of attempts to delete an article vs. the much quieter edits to an article. Or am I missing something? Rublamb (talk) 22:35, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I've reconciled myself to accepting that my position in this discussion is a lost cause, but I still feel the need to offer what I think you might be missing. The way to make "trivial, news-only, or bias/activism issues go away" is to provide secondary sources and put the focus on those sources. And the way to do that is to present those secondary sources, and describe what they say, in plain text. But, whatever. --Tryptofish (talk) 22:42, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

I'll admit I'm feeling exhausted too and am likely mostly done here, especially after the AfD and the battleground comments that came up in the initial opposes for someone who came in as an outside editor actually working to thread the needle a bit. I'm seeing similar problems here though where legitimate problems are being missed or sidestepped rather than addressed (which this move was meant to very simply address). I feel like I've been repeating myself to Rublamb multiple times now on WP:PAG issues that came up at the AfD.

At the end of the day, it's also up to the closer to actually weigh arguments (just like they did at the AfD), see if a stance is fixing a WP:PAG-focused problem or maintaining it. There should already be a lot of weight against "just keep the title as-is" with the AfD close on its own, but if folks are adamant about keeping it that way, then they shouldn't be surprised or complain when those unaddressed issues keep spurring AfD nominations. I figured most would go with a relative path of least resistance option here instead. KoA (talk) 23:35, 26 April 2024 (UTC)

Thank you both for your responses. I too came into the AfD as an outside editor, trying to help. We just have different but valid solutions to the problem. My chosen path was to help rework the list article, providing a template for including notable content and reliable sourcing for future editors. The suggestion to rename (which was part of the AfD) and the ultimate closure of the AfD failed/fails to consider WP:HEY. Rublamb (talk) 13:23, 10 May 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Careless

Come on, why delete a real fatality because you don't like the website someone listed, especially when that web page contains actual links to news articles or a google search easily finds other websites covering those fatalities. Carter Hartle was removed but is covered here. [6] [7] [8] [9] Wikianon3770617 (talk) 21:43, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

It has nothing to do with being careless, and it has nothing to do with not liking a website. WP:Reliable sources and WP:Deprecated sources. Anyone who wants to source it correctly, go right ahead. But posting it with a deprecated source: now, that's careless. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:46, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

You think erasing something because its format is not perfect or up to some arcane standards is a better solution than correcting something that can so easily be corrected? Wikianon3770617 (talk) 22:07, 15 May 2024 (UTC)

@Wikianon3770617: You are welcome to restore this content with reliable sources. The editor who removed this content was under no obligation to search for different sources. Rather, the original poster was the one who should have provided these sources. BTW, in Wikipedia, something is not considered "real", truthful, or accurate unless it is backed by a reliable source. This is not some arcane standard, but the entire premise that keeps Wikipedia reliable and useful. Rublamb (talk) 22:40, 18 June 2024 (UTC)

• 2015-11-15 Oneida County, New York: Carter Evan Hartle [10], 11 months M, Pit bull x Shar Pei. Attacked by the 2-year-old family dog while playing in his home with his siblings. The dog was euthanized.[11] [12] [13] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Wikianon3770617 (talk • contribs) 17:43, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

Additional deaths

• 2023-09-20 (died 2023-09-21) Kennewick, Washington: Billene "Billi" Cameron, 65 F, 2 pit bulls. Two pit bulls escaped their yard and attacked a neighbor's dog, then attacked Cameron as she tried to save her dog. Cameron was seriously bitten and died a few hours later. Both dogs had a history of getting loose and both had been "declared dangerous" by the county for several attacks on humans and other animals. The owner, Sara Amilia Madrigal, 34, had to file for permits to keep the dogs, though after this killing the dogs were seized and euthanized. Madrigal had kept the dogs in her backyard "because she didn't believe it was safe to have them in the house around her children". Madrigal was charged with "dog attack resulting in injury or death", pled guilty, was sentenced to 10 months with work release, will be subject to restitution, and cannot own a dog for the next five years. [14] [15] [16]

• 2024-04-12 Portsmouth, Virginia, USA: Cindy White, 51 F, 3 pit bulls. A woman walked into a house to visit the male resident and was attacked by 3 pit bulls. The man tried unsuccessfully to stop the attack. Neighbors arrived later and blamed the man and beat him up, sending him to the hospital. The dogs were euthanized. Police noted they had responded three times in the last year for incidents related to those pit bulls, and neighbors recounted several aggressive and biting incidents. [17] [18] [19] [20]

• 2024-04-26 Bronx, New York, USA: Kaheem Robinson, 41 M, pit bull. The dog was biting its owner's throat when responders arrived at his apartment. They shot and killed the dog to stop the attack. Robinson was pronounced dead at the hospital. [21] [22]

• 2024-06-08 Jeremiah, Kentucky: Trina Sandlin, 57 F, dogs (unknown). Sandlin left her home to walk to a neighboring house and did not arrive. Her family found her body a few hours later over an embankment. The coroners said the injuries were consistent with a dog attack, and Sandlin had defensive wounds. [23] [24] [25]

• 2024-06-14 Baltimore, Maryland: Sheelia Jones, 54 F, 2 pit bulls. The dogs attack 3 people, killing Jones and injuring 2 others. Responders shot one, which was euthanized, and the other was taken by animal control. [26]

* 2024-06-14 Villanueva, La Guajira, Colombia: Jesús Hernández Fragoso, 93 M, pit bull. The man was preparing to feed his own dog when it attacked his neck. The dog died from being beaten by neighbors trying to get the dog to release his bite. The man died at the hospital. [27]

• 2024-06-24 Monte Alto, Texas: Geronima Florez, 85 F, pit bull. Florez was attacked and killed by one of her dogs when she went outside to feed them. Her brother walked in on the attack and shot and killed the dog. Florez died at hospital. She would often take in strays, and animal control took the other dogs. [28]

• 2024-06-27 Snyder, Texas: Tony Bryan Berkley, 40 M. Responders found Berkley's body in the road. Two dogs were taken by animal control. [29] [30]

Wikianon3770617 (talk) 17:45, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

See above discussions, where for the purpose of having criteria it was decided that stories should need national/non-local reporting for inclusion. Traumnovelle (talk) 20:04, 1 August 2024 (UTC)

I agree with @Traumnovelle. Please dig deeper and see if any of these recieved national coverage or were in major publications. Also note that the incident in Columbia is not appropriate for a United States list. Rublamb (talk) 20:14, 3 August 2024 (UTC)

My mistake. That Colombia one got on the wrong page. We should also add any fatal events that resulted in someone getting convicted of a criminal offense since those are highly unusual. Wikianon3770617 (talk) 21:13, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

If they're unusual they should receive widespread coverage. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:17, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

That may seem logical, but is just holding on to historic norms that don't hold up in present day. News coverage has changed drastically in just the last few years. You might expect a horrific event to be covered in a newspaper outside its area (don't hold your breath), but you won't find any follow up news such as criminal charges or convictions, or civil suits. Such follow up actions are unusual in this day and age in the USA.

It used to be that fatal dog attacks were unusual and "big news", but now they are just one-news-cycle stories. I suspect that the death count, which has risen to >50, then >80, then >100 in a year (from an average of 30s/40s for many years), might have had something to do with that. Wikianon3770617 (talk) 21:29, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

Which is all the more reason Wikipedia should be selective in the criteria. These are not uncommon events. Traumnovelle (talk) 21:31, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

I want to agree with that. We should only include deaths that have been deemed significant by sources that go beyond the flash in the pan. --Tryptofish (talk) 21:44, 6 August 2024 (UTC)

@Wikianon3770617: Before I worked on the list, that is what others said (that these incidents don't get that kind of coverage). However, I more than doubled the size of the list using this criteria. Newspapers.com, People, and USA Today are great places to look.

I don't think convictiions are going to be helpful as a criteria. Felonies and murder charges, yes. But misdemeanors related to dog licenses, lack of dog control, etc. are hardly significant. I agree that convictions do not always get coverage. However, it would be fine to have a national source about the attack and a local source for the conviction. Rublamb (talk) 00:57, 7 August 2024 (UTC)