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The policy section of the village pump is used to discuss existing and proposed policies and guidelines.
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Say no to Linkspam: OCLC Online Computer Library

WP:LINKSPAM says that adding external links to an article or user page for the purpose of promoting a website or a product is not allowed, and is considered to be spam. I have just noticed that Cybercobra is adding hundreds of links to articles about published books that link to Online Computer Library Center, such as this link to the article Dragons of the Dwarven Depths. In theory, the link is being created to an online catalogue service. In practise, this shadowy private company, whose ownership and management seems murky to me, is acting a shop front for online booksellers, such as Amazon and Barnes & Noble. Should we be allow spamming of links to semi-commercial sites whose ownership and management is not transparent? Who is benefiting from this linking? Worse still, is this some sort of scam? --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 09:27, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

WorldCat (to which the OCLC references link) is actually very useful. I don't at all see how it is a scam. It's not just about booksellers. It also shows what libraries near you have a particular book. It's good for seeing the different versions and editions of a book. As for OCLC numbers in citations, the official line is supposed to be that there's no need for it where there is an ISBN, but if there isn't an ISBN (usually books older than about 1980) it is useful to include it. -- Alarics (talk) 10:36, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

The bot does not interact with citation templates. --Cybercobra (talk) 10:59, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Factual accuracy note: What CobraBot (BRFA, contribs) is doing is filling in the |oclc= parameter of {{Infobox Book}} by looking up OCLC#s programmatically based on ISBNs. --Cybercobra (talk) 10:55, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

So the question is, why do we have Online Computer Library Center in the template in the first place? Why are we filling in the template without asking what is the reason for this? I don't understand why this could be of benefit to Wikipedia:

1. Who is behind the Online Computer Library Center? How is funded? I have read the article, and frankly the level of disclosure of what this company seems to me to be deliberately vague. It says it is a "not-for-profit" company, but then who is benefiting? Is the proprietor? Is it Amazon and Barnes & Noble? Someone has to be benefitting.
2. What is an OCLC number? Who issues it? Why is it issued and to which books? My guess is that an OCLC number is similar to an ASIN, that it is simply a product identifier? It does not impart any useful cataloguing information like a Dewy number does.
3. How does Wikipedia benefit from the link? What information does an OCLC number impart per se? Should Wikipedia list every product and library catalogue number for every article about a book? I thought that Wikipedia is not a product catalogue.
4. How does the reader benefit? What use is an OCLC anyway if it is not a library catalogue per se? How many libraries does OCLC feature? It seems to me that the books listed do not represent the entire catalogue of any particular library - you can't look up the books availability for instance.

I think you get the picture - I am not convinced this is useful at all, and that article about OCLC does not contain any information from a reliable secondary source to suggest this organisation is notable, nor does it cite any reliable secondary source commenting on how useful (or not) this service is. As far as I can see, OCLC is just another internet start up, with a business plan based on providing links to book sellers, while offering a very limited online library catalogue as a front to give its business the patina of respectablity. To be frank, I think we are naive to have undertaken this type of linkspamming without asking some basic questions about what this is actually achieving. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 14:28, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Your post got me interested in OCLC so I did some quick checking. Not sure why you are basing your information on the content in Wikipedia's article on the organization (or why you imply is it "deliberately vague" as if Wikipedia articles always have all the information and if they don't they must have been manipulated to be that way—the article is not far from being a stub!) There is just scads of reliable sources discussing the organization. Background on its founding is provided here and quite a bit about their governance here. Interesting. OCLC bought Forest Press in 1988, which owns the dewey decimal system ([1], [2]); who knew the Dewey Decimal System was owned? Anyway, this is just what I found on the first page of hundreds of results, but they appear to me to be a massively notable, private nonprofit "membership cooperative" made up of 46,000 libraries all over the world as cooperative participants and 10,000 libraries being members; the very opposite of "just another internet startup" that is a front for an online bookseller.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:12, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

P.S. I see no reason to ever link to the OCLC number when an ISBN is available (most books after 1966), and I think the OCLC link to Worldcat should always be provided for publications where an ISBN cannot be given, which fosters the goal of making cited sources as transparent to locate and access for verifiability purposes as possible.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:29, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

• OCLC #s are very useful for non-books. For example, each microfish archive gets its own number which makes tracking down the one you need much easier. OCLC #s are also used by most US libraries and many world libraries, so they most certainly are not some "scam" to benefit Amazon. --ThaddeusB (talk) 16:58, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

Completely agree with above comments that 1) Links to OCLC are not spam and 2) they are not needed when there is an ISBN. older ≠ wiser 17:05, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict)I don't believe OCLC is "a scam to benefit Amazon" - and I'm not sure where that comes from - but one can find various grumblings about them on the net with regard to their access policies, effective monopoly in many places, etc. Of course, one can say the same thing about ISBN numbers; in the United States, the ISBN issuing agency is a for-profit company most people haven't heard of, that charges a fee to issue ISBNs and then resells a commercial product based on their publishing industry data - not especially different in character from OCLC's policies. We should be basing our use of such identifiers on a principle of maximal utility, rather than the vague and murky penumbras of an ethical purity that doesn't exist. In my opinion, if we have an unambiguous ISBN - note that not all ISBNs are unambiguous - then we've nearly maximized the utility of such identifiers, and there's not much need for others. That doesn't mean that listing OCLCs generated from ISBNs is particularly bad, but it's probably mostly pointless most of the time. — Gavia immer (talk) 17:20, 27 September 2009 (UTC)

I think you will find that membership of the International Organization for Standardization who control the International Standard Book Number is much more transparent than the OCLC, which is just one of many private Online public access catalogs. I still don't understand the benefit to Wikipedia of linking to the Worldcat site on every article; we don't do that for ISBNs by comparison. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 08:24, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

• I offer no opinion on the appropriateness of the OCLC number in an infobox versus its employment in a citation, say, but one reason to use an OCLC number in addition to an ISBN is that different editions (i.e. revised, enlarged, updated, etc.) and different formats (i.e. paperback, audio, large print, etc.) of books are each assigned different ISBNs. Following the OCLC number to their site, one can find different editions, formats, etc., not just one single format. — Bellhalla (talk) 12:15, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Is the issue of identifying a particular edition normally addressed by a Worldcat number? I have never seen the Worldcat number cited in any book or magazine I have read. My experience is very different: to identify which edition of a particular book is being refered to, I add citations that provide details of the publisher, place of publication together with the year (and sometimes month, if available) of publication. I think if there are any changes to the text or publisher, a new ISBN is created to reflect this. So I would argue, what is the benefit of citing a Worldcat number if that sort of information is already implicit in the citation reference? And why is Wikipedia using Worldcat at all, when it is very uncommon to do so. Strangely, neither Amazon nor Barnes & Noble quote a Worldcat number on their book listings. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 12:57, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The OC[o]LC number includes various editions, not just one. It is independent of commercial publishers and retailers. This has both good and bad aspects. It makes it easier for a reader or editor to find some version of the source, but does not by itself find the exact version cited. The ISBN by contrast finds only the exact version from the exact publisher, not earlier or later editions, not large print, audio or electronic editions, and not editions published in the reader's country. Additionally, the WorldCat search allows a reader to "find in a library near me", something that the commercial enterprises will avoid for obvious reasons. Such searches give an extra tool to editors: the ability to distinguish mass circulation from boutique works is a real aid in choosing reliable sources. While it is possible to go from specific ISBN to general OCLC on the WorldCat site (or, less consistently, on Google Books) most casual users will not be aware of this possibility. In short, both have their utility in citations for recent publications. On the other hand, ISBNs have only been used by publishers in recent decades. For older works that have not been in press since the inception of ISBNs, cooperating libraries still apply an OCLC to works held in their catalogues, which other libraries then transfer to their own copies of the same work. For rare old books this is particularly valuable in that it helps solve the problem of illegible text in one copy. LeadSongDog come howl 14:27, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

WorldCat is also useful in the opposite direction, i.e. finding the right ISBN among different editions and versions of a book. I use it all the time to find ISBNs for WP citations and then, if a book doesn't have an ISBN, I put the OCLC number in the citation instead. I think Gavin Collins has got a bee in his bonnet quite unnecessarily about this. The search facility in WorldCat also works better than that of many individual libraries, so that. for instance, it is often easier to discover there that a book is in the British Library than it is on the British Library's own on-line catalogue. -- Alarics (talk) 19:38, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Yes OCLC is good to use when ISBN fails (as are a number of others) but I think it's really good that this possible abuse was spotted and brought here. And yes I did know that Dewey is owned, it is a great shame, ISBNs are also administered by a for-profit company, which means the full information about assignment ranges costs money. Rich Farmbrough, 21:09, 28 September 2009 (UTC).

Whether or not Worldcat is a legitimate reference to pepper Wikipedia with is debateable in my view, as it is neither a comprehensive catalogue of every book published, nor is it a comprehensive library catalogue either. I could be mistaken as to the benefit such catalogue number, but from a Wikipedia perspective it is of little or no benefit to readers, since the only use of the Worldcat number is to look up a book on the Worldcat site, which is as far as I can see is little more than an advertising billboard for Amazon and Barnes & Noble - there must be hundreds of mirror sites earning advertising from doing the same thing
However, setting that asside for a moment, I realise the real issue is still linkspamming, since it is CobraBot that is linking directly to the Worldcat site itself, which I am sure is not appropriate. Note that the link to ISDN is not made directly to the ISO site, but is made instead to Special:BookSources, where the reader can make their choice of what they do with this information. Forgive me if I seem abrasive or rude, but I have a particular dislike of spam, and I think what you are doing is to unwittingly add linkspam to Wikipedia by adding a direct link to this site, which in my view is not exempt from WP:LINKSPAM. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 21:55, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

This is a joke, right? OCLC is a worldwide library consortium, and Worldcat is an excellent resource for checking whether books are available in libraries. An OCLC number is like an ISBN number, except they are assigned by libraries and therefore help identify books that predate the ISBN system ( early '70s ) as well as materials other than books. I often include an OCLC number in my cites when an ISBN is not available. And I wouldn't have any problem with a bot or template that connects those OCLC numbers to Worldcat. Squidfryerchef (talk) 22:12, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

The issue here (at least as far as I'm concerned) isn't whether Worldcat is an excellent resource—I use it several times a day—but whether there is any point in having a direct link to Worldcat when we already have a link to Special:Booksources that offers links to Worldcat and many other catalogues. OCLCs are useful when linking to books that don't have ISBNs, but when there is an ISBN this link is redundant, and this bot only provides an OCLC link when there is already an ISBN, so by definition it is providing a redundant link. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:43, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't object to having a Booksources-OCLC special page to funnel these through. Squidfryerchef (talk) 23:22, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

That misses the point on two grounds: 1) OCLC is a Worldcat-specific identifier, not something that other catalogues use, and 2) The bot that has caused the problem under discussion only adds OCLCs to infoboxes that already have ISBNs, which are the accepted standard (check what the "S" in ISBN stands for) and the link to the ISBN already allows the reader to link to exactly the same information that the OCLC provides. OCLCs are the best identifier we can get when there is no ISBN, but, when there is an ISBN they are very definitely second-best, and redundant. Phil Bridger (talk) 23:35, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

There's other places to look up an OCLC besides Worldcat. A future special page could include the option to look them up in the Library of Congress or other library systems. Something like what we have for geographical coordinates, where users can click through and choose a wide range of mapping tools to find them in. I'm not sure all the facts are getting through; OCLC has existed for decades and Worldcat is a recent project. OCLC is used worldwide, but it may be more common in the U.S., where -every- library uses it.

Funneling OCLC's through a special page would still provide benefits due to abstraction, even if Worldcat was the only place it linked to. Suppose one day Worldcat changes its URL format, then what? Or if someone wants to do a linksearch on Worldcat, or just so as not to have megabytes of URLs dispersed through thousands of articles.

I'm not sure why an ISBN would be preferred over an OCLC number, anyway. The OCLC is administered by librarians. As far as the bot, I don't have a position on what the bot is doing. While adding Worldcat links when there is already an ISBN and a special page does seem redundant to me, some of the bizarre things being said about OCLC above made me doubt everything said by one side of the table. Squidfryerchef (talk) 23:59, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

I was unaware that other sites than Worldcat provide OCLC links. Could you provide some examples, with links? And are there any sites that provide OCLC linking but not ISBN linking? And please don't assume that just because I may appear to be sitting on a particular side of the table that I share anyone else's views. As I said above, I believe that, in the absence of an ISBN, an OCLC is by far the best identifier for a book. If you look at my contributions you will see that when I add a reference to a book source I always include an OCLC if I can't find an ISBN - e.g. this is one I did today.

User:Gavia immer stated "note that not all ISBNs are unambiguous" - they should be unambiguous, it's one of the rules of the ISBN system that a number, once issued, may not be reallocated to a different book even if the book that the ISBN was originally created for is long out of print; further, that alternative formats and revised editions require different ISBNs. See International ISBN Agency FAQ page. By contrast, ISSNs may be ambiguous, since although they describe a particular periodical, they don't resolve it all the way to issue number, cover date, etc.

ISBNs on older books are sometimes present but disguised - the primary pre-ISBN system in the UK was the SBN, which had nine characters. To turn a SBN into a valid ten-character ISBN is dead easy - just stick a "0" in front. Many books of that period bore the SBN, but with no identifying marks - it was just a string of nine seemingly-random characters on or inside the back cover, inside the front cover, or on the copyright page. I've got one right here: it's priced 50s (shillings), which shows that it must be pre-1971; this is confirmed by page 4 which shows simply:

7155 4188 X7153 4188 X

TO MY WIFE

©

R. A. WILLIAMS

1968

and the printer's details. Note that "7155 4188 X" "7153 4188 X" has nine characters, and also doesn't show that it's a SBN. But check for ISBN 0 7153 4188 X, and you'll see that it's valid. --Redrose64 (talk) 23:48, 28 September 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. This might explain why I found the occasional invalid (for being too short) ISBN in my bot's logs... --Cybercobra (talk) 00:57, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Have just spotted a typo in my section above. My bad. I've amended --Redrose64 (talk) 09:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

←(unindent from above)← ISBNs with dashes to delimit the internal fields (region-publisher-unit-checksum) are indeed unambiguous. Unfortunately, because the length of the publisher field (and hence the range of the unit field) can vary, ISBNs recorded without the dashes are not necessarily unambiguous. Increasingly, this is the way they are most commonly recorded, especially for ISBN-13s (since it's just an EAN with a second interpretation). For instance, Google Books nearly always only has the dashless form of the ISBN in their summary view, even when they have a copyright page available in the book text with the dashed form plainly recorded. This can be a problem, though it's a small one - ISBN + title is practically always a unique identifier even when the ISBN alone isn't. — Gavia immer (talk) 01:48, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

ISBNs without dashes may still be unambiguous, even if the length of the publisher field can vary. For instance, something similar exists with credit card numbers. The length of the bank field varies. Big banks with many deposits are identified by a short number, small banks with fewer accounts are identified by a long number. Squidfryerchef (talk) 02:36, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Though not every string of ten digits can possibly form an ISBN, it seems that any legal string can be hyphenated in only one way. (I do not see the possibility argued above that ISBNs recorded without the hyphens could ever be ambiguous). An algorithm that walks the table of ranges given at isbn.org should be able to do the job of placing the hyphens, even without knowing all the 600,000-odd publisher codes. For the general idea, see International Standard Book Number#Pattern, with more detail at [3]. EdJohnston (talk) 02:51, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The presence or absence of dashes or spaces is purely to aid human readability, and the positioning of such separators is immaterial. It's conventional to split "1901706796" as "1-901706-79-6" but forms such as "1-90170-679-6", "1-9017-0679-6", "1-901-70679-6", "1-90-170-679-6" etc. will parse as valid, and all identify exactly the same book. --Redrose64 (talk) 09:40, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

To get us back on track, I don't think the comparative merits of the ISBN compared with OCLC is the issue here, rather it is whether Wikipedia should have direct links to the Worlcat webside, as there is no direct link to the ISBN. I have made a proposal at ANI that the not only should linking to the Worldcat website cease, but that it should also be rolled back by removing all of the links that have been created to date. I am not saying that the Worldcat number should not be used or added to articles if they are of benefit; rather I am proposing that the hundreds of direct links to their site be removed. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 10:33, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

The Cybercobra bot does not add links to the WorldCat site. It simply populates |oclc= in the {{Infobox Book}}. Any linking is performed automatically by {{Infobox Book}}. Therefore, all links could be removed simply by changing {{Infobox Book}}. Also, the appropriate place for any complaints about the links is on the Template's Talk page. HairyWombat (talk) 19:50, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Nothing "simply" causes linkspam; someone had to make it happen, in this case the editor Cybercobra. I think it is down to him to put it right. Every editor has to take responsibility for their own actions, not blame the creators of the template, in the same way we cannot make the excuse that we were "simply taking orders". --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 21:22, 29 September 2009 (UTC)

Congratulations, Gavin. You have just proved Godwin's law. I feel privileged to have seen it in action. HairyWombat (talk) 07:09, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Thank you for enlightening us on that, that is a fair point. However, the linkspam remains; we can't "simply" blame the bot or the template, and the responisibilty for cleanup still remains. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 08:01, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

If it is desirable to unlink the OCLC# when an ISBN is present, that can be accomplished by a edit to the template. There is no need to undo the edits. --ThaddeusB (talk) 13:21, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

The Asimov's third law of robotics might be closer to the point, but even that is off topic. The link to the OCLC is a benefit to the project. It is not any kind of spam, scam, or bookmongers' ploy (if anything, it hurts the bookmongers by diverting buyers to libraries). It is a legitimate bibliographic tool. The only question is whether that benefit outweighs the tiny confusion it might cause when seen side-by-side with a linked ISBN. I contend (above) that it does. LeadSongDog come howl 14:33, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

In answer to ThaddeusB, Cybercobra knows that neither he nor myself can edit the template, in which case the linkspam remains. In response to LeadSongDog, the worthiness of Worldcat is a side issue; its still linkspam. Whether their is benefit from the Worldcat number is open to question, but mass linking to Worldcat's website is effectively making Wikipedia a feeder site to the Worldcat site. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 15:47, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I could imagine a compromise in which CyberCobra agrees not to run the bot any more. Under this plan, the OCLC numbers he has already inserted would be allowed to remain in place. The ones already inserted do not annoy me too much, since they are only in infoboxes, and there is a slight chance they may be useful there. If they were being mechanically added to *citations* I would be quite concerned. EdJohnston (talk) 16:51, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

I, or any other admin, can easily change the template if/when there is consensus to do so. --ThaddeusB (talk) 17:25, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) (out) - Why would he need to stop it? Adding the OCLCs to infoboxes is quite helpful to the reader. I have no idea why this is such a big deal; for the most part, I agree with LeadSongDog (talk · contribs)'s comments above ("The link to the OCLC is a benefit to the project."). I do not think that it would cause more confusion; in fact, I think that an argument could be made that Special:BookSources—what ISBNs link too—is more confusing. This is the reason I have ISBNs and OCLCs side-by-side in such FAs or As like Brazilian battleship Minas Geraes#Bibliography or North Carolina class battleship#Bibliography. —Ed (talk • contribs) 17:36, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

But the ISBN link already gives the reader the option to go to Worldcat, so why do we need a separate, direct, link to it? I'm perfectly happy to have OCLC links when there is no ISBN, but this bot is adding them only in those cases where there already is an ISBN. A useful bot would be one that looks at articles with no ISBN or OCLC and adds one of them (with the first choice being ISBN) based on a Worldcat lookup of other parameters such as title, author, publisher and year. One thing that I do agree on is that Special:BookSources needs to be made friendlier, in particular to remove irrelevences such as the map and most of the notes from the top of the page so that the reader can see the first few links without having to scroll down, but that's a separate issue that I don't feel like getting into in depth now. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:49, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

It's not an issue of need. ISBNs may link to worldcat, but OCLCs can also be helpful by providing a direct link. What I don't understand is what is so wrong with the bot adding links. What serious detriment does it do to the project. —Ed (talk • contribs) 23:27, 30 September 2009 (UTC)

Where an ISBN link already exists, the OCLC link is redundant, as a WorldCat link is accessible through Special:BookSources. That said, characterizing adding OCLC links as linkspamming verges on the ludicrous: OCLC is a non-profit membership co-op, and the WorldCat union catalogue, the largest bibliographic database in the world, is provided free of charge to libraries. Who benefits from this scam? Uh, dunno: libraries and library users, I guess. I mean, you might find a link from Wikipedia to a book in your local library and, er, go and take it out. Shameless hucksters. --Rrburke^(talk) 02:51, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Where a correctly-formatted ISBN is already in place, adding OCLC does seem like needless clutter since a WorldCat link is accessible through Special:BookSources and Worldcat is perfectly capable of retrieving titles by ISBN. –Whitehorse1 03:24, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

Whether or not the OCLC number is needless clutter, I don't think there is consensus to remove the number itself at this point. But the way template is working, it means that when a OCLC number is added, it creates a direct link to the Worldcat site. As a result, Cobrabot has created hundreds of links to the Worldcat site. WP:LINKSPAM says that direct links should not be created which "explicitly solicit editors to use a specific external source to expand an article". By comparison, when the ISBN parameter is created, it does not create a direct link, so linkspam is not an issue.
I have understood from this discussion that some editors consider the OCLC be a useful cataloging system, but there are many others out there (Library of Congress Control Number comes to mind). Which ever numbers we choose to include in the template is a matter of consensus, but surely we don't what to add links to every book article to the sites of each and every cataloging authority? --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 12:49, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

A review of the archives for Template talk:Infobox Book shows that the consensus intention there was for the template to support and link ISBN, OCLC, and (some suggested) LCCN. Where unknown or unavailable "|isbn=NA" is expected. The first edition is the preferred book to list. An interesting case shown is the first edition of Anne of Green Gables, where there is no ISBN for that edition, but there is an OCLC, OCLC 367111. A distaste for blue text is no reason for interfering with linkbuilding. The OCLC link is very useful to editors and especially to translators, even when an ISBN is available. It improves WP:accessibility by making Braille, large print, and audio formats of the books, journals, and other works easier to find. These are not trivial things. LeadSongDog come howl 14:40, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

My review of the archives for Template talk:Infobox Book shows that the consensus intention there was that the OCLC parameter was introduced for cases where there is no ISBN; see Template talk:Infobox Book/Archive 2#ISBN question, Template talk:Infobox Book/Archive 3#OCLC parameter?, and the long-standing instruction in Template:Infobox Book/doc#Parameters: "Use OCLC when the book has no ISBN". The only comment that I can find supporting having both parameters specified in the same infobox is Template talk:Infobox Book/Archive 4#Translated books case study, where an editor supports this on the grounds that we can provide the best OCLC where there is more than one, but that decision can only be made by a human editor, not a bot. Phil Bridger (talk) 16:14, 1 October 2009 (UTC)

I think that Bridger has hightlighted the key to understanding the current situation:

1. that there has never been consensus OCLC number should be used as a book identifier in every single instance; and
2. that the effect of creating a paramenter in the Template:Infobox Book which leads to the OCLC number becoming a direct link to the Worldcat website was not anticipated when the parameter was created.

These two issues lay dormant until Cyberbot entered the scene: what appeared on the surface to be a useful addition of the OCLC number to every book article page has turned out to be an exercise in automated linkspam, and I don't mean this in the perjorative sense. Rather, I mean that the linkspam was created unintentionally (as the problems with the template had not been anticipated), in good faith (I think Cybercobra is is trying to do the right thing), in the belief that the OCLC could be used by readers as a useful publication identifier, rather than promoting the Worldcat website.
It seems to me at this point that the intervention of Cyberbot, whilst well intentioned, may not have turned out as well as expected. Because the use of the OCLC number has now been brought into question, as has the configuration of the template, I think the automated additon of the OCLC number should be rolled back. To be honest, there are better identifiers out there: for instance, the addition of the (Library of Congress Control Number to every US publication listed in Wikipedia would seem to me to be much more useful task for Cyberbot in the short term, as this is a widely used identifier (often cited in academic papers, unlike the OCLC), in the US at least. From the a long term perspective, I see great benefit from the addition of the Dewey Decimal Classification number from the perspective of categorisation within Wikipedia, but that is another project for another day. However, I see little benefit from linking to the Worldcat site itself, as the content which it contains is of limited value. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 08:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Notice: The issue of whether/when the Infobox should generate hyperlinks to WorldCat is now being discussed at Template_talk:Infobox_Book#Worldcat_Weblink --Cybercobra (talk) 17:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Just a little note on ISBNs

A few fallacies, mainly understandable exist. The following should clarify.

1. There are a lot of books. This means that "anything that can happen will happen".
2. SBNs are 9 digits (including a possible X in the last place) ISBNs are 10(including a possible X in the last place) or 13 starting with 978 (later 979 will be used.
3. The check digits for 10 and 13 digit numbers may or may not be the same (effictively by chance - but Springer Verlags are I think alwasy the same ?).
4. The corect hypenenation of an ISBN provides a little more information to those versed in the arcana, but is not required for uniqueness.
5. In theory there is a one to one relationship between ISBN and an edition of a book.
6. In practice there exist books with 4 ISBNs and books sharing ISBNs - they are very rare though and cause no real problems.
7. Just becasue an ISBN is printed on a book, it doesn't mean it is correct or even valid.

regards, Rich Farmbrough, 18:34, 4 October 2009 (UTC).

Should Wikipedia be used as a billboard?

I think the more important question as to why Wikipedia should be used as platform to create hundreds of links direct to the Worldcat website has been ignored, perhaps by those who do not want those links removed. There is no reason why Worldcat should be given special treatment by linking to their site in this way, as we don't do it for any other non-commecial or comercial cataloguing service. It is not appropriate to add these lists on two grounds:

1. Wikipedia should not be used as a billboard site for Worldcat, even if the information on their site (and the related advertising) is useful;
2. it is not appropriate for an article to link to a specific cataloguing serivce :I think the more important question as to why Wikipedia should be used as platform to create hundreds of links direct to the Worldcat website has ignored.

Wikipedia should be not be providing this service for Worldcat, as we don't do it for any other non-commecial or comercial cataloguing service. For instance, Wikipedia does not support direct links to the Library of Congress website via a LCCN, even though it is one of the largest book collections in the World. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 15:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

I think we should use more discretion and try not to link to one particular site for any broad purpose. For example, I disagree with all the "findagrave" links we have lying around and I believe that they have much to gain, too much to gain in fact, from the way we promote them. WorldCat is a bit of a tighter situation, because it is much more academic and it fills a niche, but google books (for example) has relevant information as well. I think most of these links are useful, but the placement of links is beyond a bot's control. The issue here isn't "linkspam" per se, but whether we are willing to give unilateral preference to one site to the point where we can allow bots to link there automatically. I don't believe this is a wise solution and would support the links being encouraged but not mandated. Perhaps the issue isn't as grave as Gavin leads us to believe, but I do take issue when bots begin linking externally. ThemFromSpace 20:48, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

The thing is, the bot isn't linking externally. The bot is filling in a infobox parameter, and the infobox creates the link. If the infobox is changed, a single edit wipes out all the "linkspam" at once. If Gavin would stop forum shopping his "linkspam" claims, he might actually be able to make a point, but as long as he's screaming "LINKSPAM", "BILLBOARD", etc., in every forum he can think of, it's not going to work. --SarekOfVulcan (talk) 20:58, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

For the record, you're not entirely correct about LCCNs: {{LCCN}} --Cybercobra (talk) 01:58, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Point taken. But how many cataloging sites do we need to link to? A similar problem arises with the article Accounting: loads of organisation offering accounting services, or representing accountants have tried to put their links on the page, so I have removed them all. Bald links don't add any useful context per se, and that applies whether you add one direct link or many. I can understand citing the OCLC number in an inforbox without a direct link, but creating a direct link is without precedent. If I create citation, it is one thing to use the OCLC to uniquely identify a source, but to link every source to OCLC would be pure folly:

• Ritter, Ron. The Oxford Style Manual, Oxford University Press, 2002 OCLC 316438829.

Incidentally, does anyone else find the Wordcat site really slow? It took almost 2 minutes for the above link to load. --Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 19:20, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

It's just your connection I think. The page took less than a few seconds to fully load for me.98.26.53.29 (talk) 21:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't see the folly of linking in the particular citation example you give. If the cite had also included an ISBN, I agree, there's no need to link the OCLC (or possibly even include the OCLC), but without an ISBN, the OCLC link usefully provides an easy way to locate a copy of the book but gives no Google juice to the WorldCat site. --Cybercobra (talk) 22:23, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

For some reason I wasn't seeing it before. But yes that does seem an awful lot of commercial content. We have blacklisted ISBN checking sites for simply including an affiliate link to Amazon before. And if we are going to use OCLC except in the last resort (as is the case for ASIN) and someone is going to be making a few cents off the referrals, we come back to using a WP referral code on Special:booksources. Rich Farmbrough, 17:04, 7 October 2009 (UTC).

I agree. I don't see why Wikipedia should be acting a feeder site for Worldcat, which provides advertising services to Amazon et al.--Gavin Collins (talk|contribs) 14:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Should trademarked sports logos be used as icons in university infoboxes?

I want to start this off by making it very, very, very clear that this issue isn't about our non-free content guidelines. Recent conversations on this point have been blurring this distinction and muddling the picture. The non-free content guidelines here are largely irrelevant. With that out of the way...

Starting much earlier this year, but especially in the last month, I've been removing sport logo icons from the infoboxes of university articles, doing so per the last paragraph of WP:MOSLOGO which states "Use of company logos, sports team crests and other copyright protected or trademarked images in articles can usually only be done on a fair use basis (generally as an illustration of the primary subject - eg the IBM logo on the IBM article). Use of such images as icons is nearly always prohibited (see Wikipedia:Non-free use rationale guideline and Wikipedia:Logos)." It is my belief that this guideline is pretty unequivocal with regards to the use of trademark images. Note that the guideline says "or" not "and" for the 12th word. This is an important distinction.

The concern regarding the use of trademark icons first entered into the WP:MOSLOGO guideline in September of 2008 [4]. It's been evolving since. A version from May of this year [5] shows the intent. This was later reworded to what we have now.

I feel the use of trademark sports logo icons in university infoboxes is inappropriate because:

• Most importantly, the sports logo of a university represents one department of a university. A sports department, if successful, frequently receives media attention. The same applies to other successful departments of universities. When you think of Harvard, most non-Harvard people immediately think of their law school, which is usually ranked either 1st or 2nd in the U.S. The law school has a different crest/logo than the university itself. Since Harvard is so notable for its law school, should we therefore include the law school crest in the infobox as well? Instead, we include only the university's mascot logo. That doesn't make sense.
• We should be including the main crest/seal/logo of a university in its infobox only, as that mark represents the entire university, not just one part of it.
• If we are to include the university's sports logo, we should be including every departmental logo. There's no valid reason to treat these other departments as less than a sports department.
• Reduction of a logo can be lossy. In many of these iconization attempts, the reduction is greater than 75% of the original pixel coverage of the image as used elsewhere on the project.
• It conveys an inaccurate meaning; the university isn't just its sports department any more than Coca-Cola is only Sprite.
• It clutters the infobox.

In particular, this RfC asks:

1. Should icons of trademarks be permitted in infoboxes or should they only be displayed in their full size? (not to be confused with standards on the use of non-trademark flag icons and note definition of icon from the guideline: "For the purposes of this guideline, icons are any small images, including logos, crests, coats of arms, seals and flags.")
2. Should trademarks of a subsidiary organization of a parent organization be displayed in the infobox of a parent organization's article? I.e., should the Sprite logo appear in the infobox on Coca-Cola, or the Marlboro logo appear on the Altria article, or sports logos of university teams appear in the infoboxes of university articles.

Your input welcome. Thanks, --Hammersoft (talk) 15:02, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

When you say trademarked sports logos, do you mean non-free images that also have a trademark or all images with a trademark. In your example, the IBM logo is a free image, so I don't see why it would matter if included in the infobox. MBisanz ^talk 15:12, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• See the first paragraph of this section. This is irrespective of whether it is fair use or not. Trademarks do exist in full size on many articles. For example, Chevrolet though that example is fair use. The question is, should the Chevrolet trademark appear on the General Motors article as an icon in its infobox? --Hammersoft (talk) 15:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
• I think it's possible we could discuss the validity of the style of iconization of trademarks in infoboxes in the context of non-free images. I'm just concerned it would fracture the discussion. Where that discussion, if it happened, could go is; since we wouldn't permit a fair use icon in an infobox for failing WP:NFCC #8, yet allow free logos as icons, we create a style dichotomy. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• Hmm, ok, I would support including sports logos on the theory that many colleges have two primary brands that they promote, the school brand and the athletic brand (of the three major institutions I attended, two operated in this manner and the third didn't have a major sports program). And with the Harvard example, including the sports team in the Harvard article seems like a good idea for presentation purposes since it would be consistent with my general experience at most universities and I can live with the style dichotomy in light of WP's free mission and the asthetical benefit provided by including free logos where possible. MBisanz ^talk 15:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• So we should include trademark logos as icons even if it incurs lossiness? I'd rather see the full size logo used. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
• And, to keep this focused on the abstract concept, should we also include trademark logos on parent organization articles such as Altria, General Motors and Procter & Gamble? If not, then why are universities a special case exemption from this? Parent organizations spend huge sums of money marketing their brands, and frequently very little on the parent brand. They're more notable and recognizable for their brands than for their parent organization. Ask 50 people what Altria is, they'll look at you cross-eyed. Ask 50 people what Marlboro is, and most will say a cigarette company. --Hammersoft (talk) 15:33, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I think when an organization has a primary and secondary identifier that are recognized by the company and associated with it as such, then it would be appropriate to include both, so for GM I don' think we should include all four brands, but for Chrysler we would want to include both the pentastar and ribbon. Same for Altria where we probably want to include the Phillip Morris crest, but for P&G we wouldn't need to include ever brand logo. MBisanz ^talk 15:36, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• That creates a pretty fuzzy line. So for some organizations we include subsidiary organization icons in the infobox, but not for others? On what clear criteria? --Hammersoft (talk) 16:06, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

I wouldn't have any problem with an article on Altria or GM that had a "brands" section with logos of their major brands. It's definitely within our fair-use guidelines and it adds encyclopedic value, and would be necessary if we're going to allow merged articles. I smell a holy war comng on... Squidfryerchef (talk) 16:24, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• I think a university logo belongs in a university infobox, and a sports logo belongs in a sports infobox. If the university's athletics are notable enough to warrant their own article, that's an easy decision. If the university's athletics are not notable enough for their own article, then there should be an athletics section with its own infobox. Squidfryerchef (talk) 16:18, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
• My take on the matter: The current wording of WP:MOSLOGO is inaccurate, as it implies that all logos are copyrighted (or that "trademarked" comes with the exact same NFCC restrictions). As with so much of the MOS, I'm sure this was done as part of someone's effort to give themselves a bigger hammer to justify removing the things. WP:MOSLOGO should be reverted to either of the mentioned versions (September 2008 or May 2009), or rewritten to the same effect. I have no opinion on the question of whether the logos should be used in the particular context under discussion here. Anomie⚔ 16:37, 2 October 2009 (UTC)
• I would say most emphatically not! This is not fair use, since the articles in question are about the universities, not the sports operations. I know it is popular to deride certain institutions as sports franchises with glorified high schools attached for legal purposes, but such partisanship aside, the sports team is not the purpose of the school or the article. Such use may be arguably fair use on the separate article (if any) about the sports operation; but not on the school's main page. --Orange Mike | Talk 16:57, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

However, logos used for athletics are often used to represent the entire university in academic contexts and other non-athletic contexts. This is true many institutions including at Texas A&M, Michigan, Miami, etc. They are valuable marketing identities for their respective institutions, and often, the icon most immediately recognizable to the general public. Therefore, IMHO, their use in the university infoboxes not only useful, but important. Whether it right for a school to do so is not the debate, but the fact is that the culture and identity of many institutions are inexplicably intertwined with their athletics. This does not, by default, make them jock factories. An example on the other end of the spectrum would be Cal-Berkley. In my experience there are some individuals, living outside of Western United States, who believe that "Cal" and "Berkley" are different institutions. Having the script "Cal" logo (a tm PD-text logo) in the infobox actually aids the reader in identifying the institution, and IMO, makes the article better. There seems to be no policy, fair-use or not, against inclusion of both, specifically in the section of the university infobox dealing with athletics. CrazyPaco (talk) 00:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

• Just to be clear, we're not talking about fair use images (though there are fair use images involved in this). We're talking about the use of trademarked icons of organizations in the infobox of their parent organizations. --Hammersoft (talk) 19:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comment What is missing is a clear policy about the use of trademarked logos in general, which I suppose is more than the scope of this RFC question. We have lots of policy about copyrighted images, but are lacking when it comes to trademarks. Frankly, Wikipedia:Logos#Trademark concerns doesn't offer clear, tangible guidelines for editors. It says U.S. law protects the right of non-owners to use trademarks for purposes of criticism and commentary, but that says nothing about decorative and/or identification usage? The opinion of some editors seems to be "hey, that's not Wikipedia's problem" (perhaps because they feel the Wikipedia:General disclaimer#Trademarks gives them an "out") but shouldn't we be striving to make this encyclopedia's content as freely usable as possible? We also have many images tagged with {{PD-textlogo}} because they are deemed to be not copyrightable because they fail the threshold of originality, but those decisions are made by non-experts in this area of law. We have great inconsistency for how these images are used; restraint is evident for File:Sony logo.svg, which only appears on one mainspace article (and not in every article in Category:Sony and its subcategories!) but we seem to allow widespread usage for university team logos, some television shows, etc. I would prefer to see a stronger policy about the use of trademarked images. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 19:21, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

  I concur with your general assessment. I'd be happy to contribute to a discussion on the use of trademark policy development. But, in the absence of that policy, what is your stance vis-a-vis the use of trademark icons (not full size logos) of organizations in the infobox of their parent organizations? --Hammersoft (talk) 19:43, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

  I disagree with the general assessment here. The Sony logo isn't used by choice, not because of restraint. No one wants to use it for every Sony product with an article on Wikipedia. "...those decisions are made by non-experts in this area of law." is a misleading statement as almost every decision on Wikipedia is made by non-experts in the law; that doesn't mean we just stop doing everything or making decisions on what to use/not use. My opinion is not exclusively based upon the general disclaimers of Wikipedia, but on copyright laws, legal outcomes, precedent, and our policies and guidelines. While we have inconsistency in how these PD images are used, that doesn't mean they are necessarily wrong or that they even need to be standardized. Individual projects can decide how best to use them as long as they abide by our policies and the law. Can we provide better guidance? Sure. So let's work on that guidance. — BQZip01 — ^talk 23:20, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

  I'd also like to throw in Wikipedia:Trademarks#The_use_of_graphic_logos which states that a logo like Sony's mentioned above can be used once in each infobox. — BQZip01 — ^talk 04:38, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

  No, it does not say this. A product logo is fine in an info box, but not the reuse of the company's logo in each of its products' infoboxes is not allowed by that. --MASEM (t) 04:47, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

  "Product logos and corporate logos...whether copyrighted or not, may be used once in the infobox or corner of articles about the related product, service, company, or entity." Don't see how that can't be more clear. — BQZip01 — ^talk 12:53, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

  The word "once" says exactly how many times a logo gets a free uncontested use on WP. That's not to say that a logo can't be reused elsewhere if it represented multiple entities, but it does say that it cannot be used for pages that are even one-step removed from that entity. --MASEM (t) 13:01, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

  It mentions nothing about "uncontested use" or "it cannot be used for pages that are even one-step removed from that entity." Where am I missing this? — BQZip01 — ^talk 20:09, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

  "may be used once" (with the rest of the language implies we use a given logo as little as possible, one time being appropriate and undisputed. This also goes along with WP:NFCC#3a about minimal use of non-free works, and as I point out below, the difficulties of systematic bias when you have free vs non-free logos for equivalent institutions. --MASEM (t) 13:27, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

  Yes, but it states it "...may be used once in the infobox or corner of articles..." I read that as it may be used in more than one article, but only once within each article. I think the plural status of this noun is important to note. How do you interpret that? — BQZip01 — ^talk 16:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

  The full sentence (as out of context can lead to the trouble) is Product logos and corporate logos, such as the stylized rendition of the word Dell used by Dell, Inc., whether copyrighted or not, may be used once in the infobox or corner of articles about the related product, service, company, or entity. We have multiple logos and we are talking about multiple articles, so it's not the case necessarily of a single logo on multiple articles. Of course, we're not a beuararcy and shouldn't be reading to the exacting letter but consider how the policy is applied through WP, and clearly the case is to limit the use of a logo image to the single entity it is representing, or if it represents multiple entities, there too, but not on related entities. --MASEM (t) 23:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

  To ignore the wording and go by something else ignores the wording of the guideline in question. I believe you are making this your personal interpretation of policy because nowhere in our policies or guidelines does it state "...the case is to limit the use of a logo image to the single entity it is representing, or if it represents multiple entities, there too, but not on related entities.". Again, I believe your motives to be sincere and pure, but I think you are projecting your interpretation into this and ignoring the wording that was chosen. — BQZip01 — ^talk 16:43, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

  Ok, sure. I think that any logo (regardless of trademark and/or copyright status) should certainly be shown on the single article for which it is most appropriate. That means that for a university, I would think the university seal belongs on the top level article (only!) for that university, and the sports team logo belongs (only!) on the top-level article for the sports team. For example, File:PittPanthers.png ought to appear only on the Pittsburgh Panthers article, and File:UofPittsburgh Seal.svg should only be on the University of Pittsburgh article. I think the trademarked sports logo should not be used as a substitute for the copyrighted seal just to get around WP:NFCC so that we have some image on all Pitt articles. Similarly, I think the current usage of the Sony logo is the most appropriate. I fully support the fair-use of copyrighted logos for identification purposes on the single article that the logo is associated with. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:01, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

  I would not assume that these are necessarily "sub-level" articles? Would they not have their own notability to exist on their own to begin with? Sports teams and universities share the same logos, that doesn't necessarily make Notre Dame Fighting Irish football more of a sub article of Notre Dame University than it makes the New England Patriots a sub-article of the National Football League. Because Notre Dame Football, and Basketball, and Ice Hockey and the University share the same PD-textlogo, doesn't mean it reduces the utility in that logo representing those entities in their own stand alone articles. It also doesn't mean universities don't use multiple logos to represent themselves, which is already understood and accommodated by the presence of multiple image fields in the University Infobox.CrazyPaco (talk) 00:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

  Each article in Wikipedia is supposed to be a standalone article. The logos may be associated with more than one article, not just a main article. — BQZip01 — ^talk 04:14, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Note: I anticipated having a hard time keeping this discussion focused on the two questions outlined above. I just didn't anticipate it would fork in the way it did :) I've refactored some comments in an attempt to keep elements of the discussion focused in appropriate places. --Hammersoft (talk) 22:50, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• Comment regarding the first point "Most importantly, the sports logo of a university represents one department of a university...". This is simply not always the case. "Popular" or "athletic" logos are often used to represent the university and its community as a whole. This would be exemplified by use of the "popular" or "athletic" in this photo of student shuttle busses on the campus of the University of Pittsburgh. The "arched block PITT" logo, in this particular case, is used in a completely non-athletic context. Academic use of other "athletic/popular" logos occurs at many schools, including the University of Miami, which has used both their split "U" and Ibis logo in many academic contexts for many years. Logos and mascots can represent the universities as a whole, and this is often evidenced by the appearance of mascots at non-athletic functions. I also disagree with the analogy that most people think of Harvard Law when the first hear of Harvard. No one is advocating the use of logos restricted to representation of sub-entities, individual colleges, or programs, but to claim that popular/athletic logos are also so restricted in their representation is simply not the case in many instances. CrazyPaco (talk) 23:13, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

• My take: in the infobox only, only the school-wide logo should be used. Articles about schools are about the school itself, not its athletic program or any other specific academic program. Importantly, not every school has an athletic program, and furthermore, relating more to how college athletics are run, it detracts from the academic nature of the institution which is first and foremost what the article should be covering. Now, this doesn't supercede the possible inclusion of a logo on a section about the school's athletic program that will likely be summarized in the body of the article (with the high probability that a separate article will be there for the school's athletic program). Just that in the infobox, it is distracting and misleading and creates a bias towards triple-AAA schools over smaller institutions and also non-American schools where such athletic programs don't exist in the same manner. --MASEM (t) 23:31, 2 October 2009 (UTC)

Should the information fields dealing with athletics also then be removed from University infoboxes? Who is to judge that athletics distracts from the academic nature of a university, and furthermore, what logos do and do not represent universities as a whole? This varies by institution, and certainly does not seem to have a one-size-fits-all answer. I believe the first question should be, are the logos providing useful information to the reader for identification purposes? However, I agree that inclusion of athletic-specific logos (if you can define that) in the body of the text of the athletic section could be warranted in place of the infobox. However, the editor responsible for the wave of edits that removed these logos from the infoboxes is also removing them athletic sections within the body of the article citing, I believe incorrectly, Wikipedia:NFC#Images_2 point 5. CrazyPaco (talk) 00:26, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

I've no problem with wikilink fields for the school's athletic (and/or schoolwide) program/mascot/etc, as well as to any other significantly important academic programs, omitting these when they don't apply. Text is free and also less an eye-drawing piece of information. Logos potentially are non-free , and any guidance that allows for some logos outside of the main school logo in the infobox is either going to bias against some schools and biased towards athletic programs, or will significant increase the amount of non-free imagery used. --MASEM (t) 05:28, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

• I agree with Masem. While we should prefer a free image, we should prefer being correct on top of that. If the athletic logo is not the same as the school's logo, we should not be using it in place of the real logo. Mr.Z-man 00:04, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The question isn't using it in place of, but rather in addition to, and often in conjunction with the fields in the infobox dealing with athletics (see Harvard University). Or, if it can indeed have broader application across a university, should it still be prohibited? How do you then define "athletic-specific" logos? CrazyPaco (talk) 00:26, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

They can be included, as long as they aren't presented as the main logo, ie, in the main position near the top of the infobox. As for your other questions, neither of those matter. All that matters is that the primary logo in the infobox is the primary logo of the school, not the logo of some specific department or section. Mr.Z-man 04:45, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

• No athletic logo Infoboxes are meant to be a quick pull of salient, common, information. They also happen to be a handy place to throw salient common graphics - a crest, small photo, image or map. So far so good. And good enough, the tendency to add more and more to the infobox dilutes its usefulness. If the sporting side of an institution is important enough to merit its own article or a substantial section, then it can have its own infobox. I can think of lots of cruft trivia data stuff that could go in that. Furthermore if it is a company logo, I would imagine these things are transient, and WP is not an advertising service, so I would be inclined to have a field "sponsor = Farmbrough Sportswear" rather than "sponsor logo = Farmbrough Sportswear.png". Rich Farmbrough, 17:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC).

keep alive edit intended to keep thread from being archived before RfC has run for 30 days --Hammersoft (talk) 13:42, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

University Standards

I think the university/school articles should have the seal at the top and the school graphic at the bottom (which seems to be the norm). All other logos should be elsewhere in the article (if applicable). Given the prominence sports teams and their identies as prominent school ambassadors, the primary logo for the sports teams is optional, but appropriate, in the athletics section; This does not remove the obligation to have a proper Fair Use Rationale, if applicable. — BQZip01 — ^talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

The wording for this will have to be careful. Take the example of the University of Pennsylvania: the image at the top of the article is actually the school's arms, not the seal (see here). For wording of a guideline, such possibilities may need to be accommodated for. CrazyPaco (talk) 17:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, how does WP:NFCC #3a impact universities that utilize seals or athletic symbols within their school graphic? Pitt would an example of seal reuse (although a simplified version of the seal), while Texas A&M would be an example of "athletic" logo reuse. CrazyPaco (talk) 17:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Using the seal in the infobox context is informative in nature and is a "fair use" application no matter what the legal use of the seal is nor what the University desires. It does not indicate a legal agreement or endorsement of the page, it is simply an indication of what the University's seal is. In my humble opinion, in the case of Pitt, the seal should be used as the main image and the arms logo at the bottom to most accurately reflect the images by which the University is known. The "PITT" logo should then be used in the athletics section as it most acurately reflects the symbol by which the athletic teams are known. Showing anything else would be a disservice to the University and its symbols as not being accurately reflective the logos by which they are known. — BQZip01 — ^talk 17:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Regarding Penn specificially, my point was only to suggest careful wording of a guideline so editors don't feel compelled to use the seal vs. the arms for the infobox, regardless of any internal university policy. In the case of Penn, the arms is infinitely more common and, in this case, and may be more appropriate for the lead image because it may be more useful as an identifying mark. This decision may be better left to editors or Wikipedia projects that best know the article topic, than to generalize a guideline to just seals. Or perhaps a guideline should just read "seals or coats of arms". I think you confused Pitt and Penn, Pitt has no such arms logo. Pitt uses a simplified version of its seal and a wordmark in Janssen55 font as it's school graphic. The seal part of this logo would apparently violate WP:NFCC #3a if it also appeared in the infobox. A question I do not know the answer for is if it makes a difference whether the version of the seal in the "school graphic" is a simplified version. Does that negate NFCC #3a? For the Texas A&M article, minimal usage of the aTm logo is complicated by its adoption as the school's graphic. This is also true with the University of Miami, West Virginia and the University of Michigan.

Despite these particularities, I still think it is useful, for identification purposes, that athletic logos such as the ones you have collected be allowed in, at least, the athletic portion of the infobox as was the case in many schools' articles prior to the wave of edits that removed them. The addition of an "athletic logo" field in template:infobox university could help standardize their placement and size. This would not prevent alternate non-free other or "mascot" logo use in the athletics portion of the text body if desired (e.g. the Pitt Panther or, in the case of Texas A&M, the T-star "Building Champions" logo or Ol' Sarge) which are often more tightly aligned with athletic programs than some of the others that have become representative symbols of the overall university. This would avoid single use per page restrictions while providing maximum information in the most visible portion of the article. I guess the issue is for me on this what is the Infobox for? In my mind, it is for quick profiling and identification of the article topic. Therefore, I believe that it is a disservice not to include such prominent identifying marks in the infobox, and this is especially true when they identify an alternative name such as "Pitt" or "Cal", but also takes on added importance when they are used outside athletic contexts and many of the logos in your collection are used in such a manner. CrazyPaco (talk) 19:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I think such a proposal should go to the Wikiproject:Universities for approval before mass additions or deletions. I don't think this is a good idea, but that doesn't mean it can't be implemented. As for the duplication of images, I concur that there may be problems, but Universities typically have a host of ways their logos and typefaces should be presented. Usually there are a few dozen typeface-only options to choose from.

I agree that it seems like the University Wikiproject is the place for it. Full circle back to the discussion there? CrazyPaco (talk) 22:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

As for mixing up Pitt and Penn, I sheepishly admit the error of my ways, quote the mantra of WP:IAR ten times, and humbly beg forgiveness from the great and powerful Oz. — BQZip01 — ^talk 22:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Just don't confuse Pitt or Penn with Penn State, that will really rankle some feathers! CrazyPaco (talk) 22:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Other discussions

Other discussions exist on this subject. They are listed below. This RfC is another attempt to centralize discussion in a single, appropriate place that applies to the entire abstract concept being dealt with here.

• User_talk:Rettetast/Archive_10#Please_refrain_from_the_reversion_battle_on_the_Texas_Tech_page
• Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Universities#Logo_as_identifying_marks_in_infoboxes
• Wikipedia:Administrators'_noticeboard/Incidents#Problems_with_University_of_Pittsburgh_article

A separate issue: trademark policy on Wikipedia and legality

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. I also think we ought to treat trademarked images with the same "legal respect" that we do for copyrighted images, to further the goal of making out content as freely usable (for any purpose) as possible. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 20:01, 2 October 2009 (UTC) If you want a lawyer's opinion, go ask one. But as far my non-expert reading of Wikipedia:Logos#Trademark concerns goes, it seems to be saying that use of the mark is fine as long as you're not using the mark to try to sell something (note that's not just "using the mark in something that is sold") or to try to fool people into thinking the markholder made/authorized something they didn't. Anomie⚔ 21:55, 2 October 2009 (UTC) Just to be clear, this RFC isn't discussing the legality of using a trademark. --Hammersoft (talk) 21:58, 2 October 2009 (UTC) I know this, but that's my point. This Wikipedia could use trademarked images relatively widely, but Wikipedia content is re-purposed for other applications, and those applications might violate trademark law. So should we try to create content that is as free as possible (and reduce the possibility of "downstream" trademark violation), or should we only be concerned about the Wikipedia website itself? My belief is that our content is king, not this site. Others seem to believe the opposite, which is why they happily point to Wikipedia:General disclaimer#Trademarks and say our hands are clean. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:14, 2 October 2009 (UTC) Even though this image is in the Public Domain, you could still run into legal trouble if you use it to sell computers or publish records. To take an example from Wikipedia:Restricted materials#Non-copyright restrictions and WP:NFCC, it is illegal to print out a Wikipedia article and use it to murder someone but that doesn't make the article non-free. To take a second, see the image+caption to the right. Can you suggest a hypothetical situation in which some downstream user of one of our articles would run into legal issues from trademarks that isn't as ridiculous? Anomie⚔ 22:29, 2 October 2009 (UTC) I don't think those examples are directly relevant to my concern. A more tangible threat is the use of logos on our sports results pages (to give them "color"), and our content is re-purposed by a commercial website (sports betting, perhaps) to make those historical results available on their site. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 22:45, 2 October 2009 (UTC) If they take something we created, they are supposed to give credit to the source, in this case Wikipedia. If they use a trademarked image with no regard for the owner's rights, then they are guilty of violating the trademark and ignoring our disclaimers (which are explicitly mentioned on the image pages in question here); if they ignore the rules, then they are subject to applicable laws. It really is that simple. — BQZip01 — talk 23:10, 2 October 2009 (UTC) Sure. We have our general disclaimer to absolve us from wrongdoing. But I'm suggesting that we can do better than that; we can make our content as free as possible, so that the disclaimer is less likely to be invoked. — Andrwsc (talk · contribs) 23:27, 2 October 2009 (UTC) We can't treat trademarks the same as copyrighted material because the legal protections for each are completely different. And we shouldn't try to anyway, because the field of trademarked content is far too vast, encompassing many words and images of common property, and regardless of whether they are presented as "logos" in specific fonts (so don't get hung up on that). As noted above, trademark protection is very context- and function-specific; you can't commit trademark infringement simply by copying a trademark with nothing more. Wikipedia content by its very nature only uses trademarks nominatively—to identify a trademarked product or service or the trademark holder. This is not trademark infringement, and in fact it is something even competing commercial companies can do legally, as in comparative advertising. The presence of those trademarks in Wikipedia content in no way makes it less free to downstream users, who would really have to go out of their way to commit trademark infringement with Wikipedia content. Postdlf (talk) 03:00, 3 October 2009 (UTC) On Commons, the approach is to be concerned only about copyright, trademark is usually mentioned n grey cases but dismissed: if an image "seems" copyrightable but it actually isn't (like File:Google.png), it's because it's trademarked but not copyrighted, and the result is keep. In any case, if there were strong reasons to discuss the trademark bit, I suggest to do it on commons as well. Regular user in there, even if not lawyers, generally know at least "a bit of everything" of copyright law and may provide more well-sourced answers than wikipedia users who may have expertise on other topics but not on that. MBelgrano (talk) 03:29, 3 October 2009 (UTC) This is just ... a bad idea. Trademarked public domain images are just that - public domain. They have a couple minor restrictions on them, but none that really apply to us or anyone copying an article from us. Besides that, they're about as free as can be. Postdlf sums it up well. This is just pointless copyright trademark paranoia that would hurt content quality far more than it would improve free-ness. Mr.Z-man 04:52, 3 October 2009 (UTC) Andrwsc, et al, Your actions (attempting to protect Wikipedia from problems) are commendable. In the cases of trademarks, they are unnecessary. Are there issues? Certainly, but they are arrangement and aesthetic issues, not legal ones. — BQZip01 — talk 04:14, 5 October 2009 (UTC) The one thing I throw in here in the trademark/non-free approach is that we need to seek a means of using logos in a manner than is not systematically biased. Say we have two predominate companies as articles along with numerous pages for their products, the products themselves lacking new logos. The only difference between these companies is that one employees a logo that is simply block text and completely fails the threshold of originality, while the other is highly stylized and clearly copyrightable. Now, while one could argue that it would be fine to put the free, trademarked company logo on each of the product pages, this capability is not something that can be enjoyed by the other company with its non-free logo, per our WP:NFC policy. Thus, we should discourage the use of free, trademarked logos through the reasoning of "just because they can be", and only consider the use of logos - free or otherwise, when they are truly adding something to an article. --MASEM (t) 15:26, 5 October 2009 (UTC) Which is really an issue for the "main" discussion above and not this side thread. The policy on when logos should be used need not care whether the image itself is PD or not, and whether or not a particular logo is "free" or "non-free" doesn't depend on whether there is any sort of bias. Anomie⚔ 19:41, 5 October 2009 (UTC) I disagree. If a company chooses to create a trademark that is also copyrightable, that is their choice. We shouldn't decided to eliminate logos froma set of articles (for example electronics manufacturers) just because one of them doesn't have a PD logo. I would like to work on a definition as to what we should/shouldn't do as the current guidance isn't adequate and is murky (for example, should we use only the trademarked logos instead of copyrightable logos in sports articles since a "free alternative is available?"). As for the rest, I agree we shouldn't just add logos because we can. However, that is a matter of aesthetics, not policy. Individual Wikiprojects can solve those dilemmas and guidance should reflect that bias. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC) You're still creating a systematic bias if you insist that a free logo can be used everywhere reasonably possible (outside of the one entity it represents) while the same cannot be done for a non-free logo. Companies may be a bad example, but lets take two rival universities: "University of Free Logo" (UFL) and "Non-Free Logo U." (NFLU). Per your suggestion, and technically against no policy, we can plaster UFL's logo all over articles relating to UFL. But NFLU's logo is only begin used on one page, that of the school. What will likely happen is that users that support NFLU will want to have the same equality in how their school logo is used as how UFL's is used, and will attempt to copy the logo to all the same types of places. This obviously will cause conflict with the NFC policy. As long as UFL's logo is used frequently, newer editors will try to invoke WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS and maintain that we need the NFLU's logo as many times, and that's just not acceptable. (now, imagine the case of two rival companies, and the legal power they may bring). That's why our image and logo policies need to reflect what we can do with the lowest common denominator, in this case, the situation with non-free logos, even if this purposely restricts the use of free logos. That's removing the bias that prevents conflict in the future. Note that I'm not saying we've resolved the sports logos on season pages issue; this is just saying that whatever policy we adapt for the use of non-free logos needs to apply exactly the same to free logos to avoid bias. --MASEM (t) 15:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC) I concur with the basic premise of your statement (and that the situation is not resolved yet), but your thoeretical problem lacks a real-world application. Every school (and every pro team I can find) has a trademarked logo ineligible for copyright. Please look atthe list I've created. Those labeled  Not done simply means I haven't looked very hard (like I just checked a couple of websites). Every school's bookstore seems to have a number of shirts with trademarked logos that are simple text; it wouldn't be that hard to use some of those for these "missing" from my list, I'm just trying to use other options first. I must admit I do not know much about companies, but that is also a theoretical application. I'm not saying we should put the SONY label on every product page, merely that we currently can. This may introduce a bias, but most companies also have a simple trademarked logo. If you think I am wrong, please give me a team or company and I am willing to bet you a barnstar that I can find an uncopyrightable logo for them. — BQZip01 — talk 16:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC) This begs the question, what if a company has fancy-smancy logo A that clearly is original and copyrightable and used throughout the world on every ad, product, etc., and a plain text logo they use on internal memos or the like - what logo should we be using? I don't like the idea of, for purposes of being more "free", using the less-represented logo, primarily as the purpose of the logo in infoboxes is to identify the identity of the company to the reader, and using the logo that is rarely seen is unhelpful. Just like we use the most common English name when there's conflict, we should use the most common logo, whether free or non-free, for that entity, and then consider how that impacts possible reuse. --MASEM (t) 23:06, 6 October 2009 (UTC) The problem here is not that there are two images, but that the non-free content criteria interfere with the ability to create a quality encyclopedia. In an ideal setting, we could use the copyrightable image under fair use as identifying the entity, but as there is a suitable replacement. WP:NFCC#1 states "Non-free content is used only where no free equivalent is available...that would serve the same encyclopedic purpose." Seeing as there are multiple logos, despite the fact that one is more popular, the freer image should be used in every instance except those discussing the actual image. For example, when talking about Nike, the swoosh logo is certainly appropriate, but the text "NIKE" logo should be used in other instances. — BQZip01 — talk 02:41, 7 October 2009 (UTC) de.wiki seems to working just fine without the use of non-free images. The wiki's are primarily a verbal medium and we use images to help improve the readers' understanding, but not for decoration, free or non-free (though even moreso for non-free). As to the "free replacement", at the level of that language, sure, a block letter logo is better than a highly stylized logo, but is it serving the same purpose? That is, I'd argue it is not "equivalent" because the block logo is not the public representation of the company while the stylized logo would be. Mind you, I'm arguing a unique case but certainly a possible case. --MASEM (t) 13:59, 9 October 2009 (UTC) Comparing de.wiki to us is disingenuous as their policies are not the same. While their wiki is a primarily verbal, ours, by choice, has more pictures and we have decided to include non-free images. Until that decision is changed, your comparison ignores some key differences. As for the block letter vs stylized logo, I'm not advocating using something that is strictly internal, but only using something that is publicly used/known/desired to be know as part of their brand. To use the Nike example, the swoosh is appropriate for the primary Nike article, but the Nike text logo (the official one, not some artificially made one) would be appropriate for articles about individual products, if consensus to use them would be found. To use the swoosh isn't appropriate as a "free replacement" is available. While you are arguing a possible case, it is theoretical and I do not know of any organization to which this would apply. Thoughts? — BQZip01 — talk 17:59, 9 October 2009 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Varying matters regarding trademarks

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The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion. Because I am not sure how to express these opinions on various topics without forking into oblivion, I'm just going to summarize. Trademark usage Images that are trademarked and copyrightable fall under the protections of copyrighted images. Images that are trademarked but ineligible for copyright are PD images. They can be used and are used as PD images within Wikipedia. Trademarks are protected under the Trademark Act of 1946 and several additional amendments (U.S.C. §§ 1051-1127.1). This act provides guidance and remedies for both trademark infringement and trademark dilution. Trademark infringement occurs when a non-owner uses another’s trademark in a way that causes actual confusion or a likelihood of confusion between the marks. It explicitly prohibits the use of marks that are "likely to cause confusion, or to cause a mistake, or to deceive." Unless someone uses a trademark with the intent to violate those explicit conditions, I can think of no use of an uncopyrightable trademark within Wikipedia which would violate these conditions. Trademark dilution involves use of a trademark within a "commercial context." This means that the use in question must actually be in the stream of commerce and could therefore make a profit for the user or reduce the profits for the owner. Dilution occurs when someone uses a another’s mark in a commercial context in a way that lessens the power of the owner’s mark to keep its the reputation of a user and how that affects the public’s perception of the mark. Again, there is nothing short of intentional misuse of a logo that would cause problems for us. Therefore, I think it behooves us to annotate clearly in policy that logos can be used in articles about things related to the subject and in user boxes, however, these cannot be used in any manner indicating endorsement or approval without the trademark's onwer's explicit permission. These logos being used in an informative manner with no monetary goal reflect the law's intent. Again, we need to explicitly define this. I'll see what I can come up with and propose it here in a bit. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC) You're a little fuzzy on the law, but your conclusions are essentially correct. Intent isn't a requirement for trademark infringement; you don't have to intend infringement but can do so accidentally. But you do actually have to use the infringing mark in commerce—i.e., in connection with goods or services you are providing, though regardless of whether you charge for it. Infringement occurs when your mark, whether identical or similar to another trademark with superior rights over yours, does cause or is likely to cause consumers to confuse your mark with the other such that they confuse the origin of the goods or services. So you have to use the trademark as a trademark, to brand your own product, which is something Wikipedia content simply does not do when it mentions or copies trademarks. Most trademarks are not eligible for trademark dilution protection; only the most famous and distinctive marks are. At its core, it basically functions just like a trademark infringement claim, except to remove the requirement from trademark infringement claims that the infringing use occur on competing goods when the trademark is sufficiently famous. You still have to use it as a trademark in commerce, so dilution is not a separate concern. I'm having difficulty imagining a situation in which Wikipedia content could falsely indicate endorsement or approval by a third party, short of a statement that "Microsoft endorses this article." If that's the only risk, there are any number of other policies and guidelines that would counsel removal of such a ridiculous sentence, so I think we might just confuse people if we get into the false endorsement issue any further without concrete examples. I do agree that it might be helpful to state more expressly (somewhere) that trademark concerns are not a concern because of the very nature of Wikipedia content, if only to avoid the periodic trademark paranoia. Postdlf (talk) 21:00, 5 October 2009 (UTC) I could have been more clear. My point is that someone using Wikipedia would have to intentionally do something on our site that is covered by about a dozen other policies (WP:V, WP:RS, etc). Certainly it could be done unintentionally. I also agree with your comments about trademark dilution, but I felt it was important to mention. — BQZip01 — talk 00:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC) I worked on a case once where a logo of a well-known sports brand appeared in a pictorial in an adult magazine (a model was wearing apparel featuring the logo). On behalf of the owner of the logo, we developed a viable dispargement theory. Such a thing could theoretically occur in Wikipedia if we were to include a famous logo for a company claiming a "clean" image (say, Toys'R'Us) in an article on some bizarre sexual fetish. If we could legitimately connect the logo to the content of the article (citing authority for the proposition that the company in question unintentionally contributes to the fetish, for example), then the First Amendment would protect our right to report on this. A purely gratuitous placement stretches the limits of the imagination, as I can see no legitimate reason why we would run across such a situation. bd2412 T 19:12, 6 October 2009 (UTC) How about this hypothetical scenario? Could the use of logo or mark be argued to imply official endorsement, and if an article then included outdated or incorrect information, even if cited, could that then lead to some claim of harm by the institution? CrazyPaco (talk) 19:56, 6 October 2009 (UTC) I don't see how. A picture, within context, cannot indicate endorsement. BD2412, correct me if I am wrong. — BQZip01 — talk 22:11, 6 October 2009 (UTC) Logos as icons I think it does a disservice to show logos in a manner inconsistent with being displayed large enought to show appropriate detail. Accordingly, I think we should limit their degredation in size to a minimum of 100px. We also should consider fixing the overuse of logos in infoboxes with some clearer guidance. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC) University Standards NOTE: SECTION DUPLICATED UP TOP I think the university/school articles should have the seal at the top and the school graphic at the bottom (which seems to be the norm). All other logos should be elsewhere in the article (if applicable). Given the prominence sports teams and their identies as prominent school ambassadors, the primary logo for the sports teams is optional, but appropriate, in the athletics section; This does not remove the obligation to have a proper Fair Use Rationale, if applicable. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC) The wording for this will have to be careful. Take the example of the University of Pennsylvania: the image at the top of the article is actually the school's arms, not the seal (see here). For wording of a guideline, such possibilities may need to be accommodated for. CrazyPaco (talk) 17:00, 6 October 2009 (UTC) Also, how does WP:NFCC #3a impact universities that utilize seals or athletic symbols within their school graphic? Pitt would an example of seal reuse (although a simplified version of the seal), while Texas A&M would be an example of "athletic" logo reuse. CrazyPaco (talk) 17:18, 6 October 2009 (UTC) Using the seal in the infobox context is informative in nature and is a "fair use" application no matter what the legal use of the seal is nor what the University desires. It does not indicate a legal agreement or endorsement of the page, it is simply an indication of what the University's seal is. In my humble opinion, in the case of Pitt, the seal should be used as the main image and the arms logo at the bottom to most accurately reflect the images by which the University is known. The "PITT" logo should then be used in the athletics section as it most acurately reflects the symbol by which the athletic teams are known. Showing anything else would be a disservice to the University and its symbols as not being accurately reflective the logos by which they are known. — BQZip01 — talk 17:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC) Regarding Penn specificially, my point was only to suggest careful wording of a guideline so editors don't feel compelled to use the seal vs. the arms for the infobox, regardless of any internal university policy. In the case of Penn, the arms is infinitely more common and, in this case, and may be more appropriate for the lead image because it may be more useful as an identifying mark. This decision may be better left to editors or Wikipedia projects that best know the article topic, than to generalize a guideline to just seals. Or perhaps a guideline should just read "seals or coats of arms". I think you confused Pitt and Penn, Pitt has no such arms logo. Pitt uses a simplified version of its seal and a wordmark in Janssen55 font as it's school graphic. The seal part of this logo would apparently violate WP:NFCC #3a if it also appeared in the infobox. A question I do not know the answer for is if it makes a difference whether the version of the seal in the "school graphic" is a simplified version. Does that negate NFCC #3a? For the Texas A&M article, minimal usage of the aTm logo is complicated by its adoption as the school's graphic. This is also true with the University of Miami, West Virginia and the University of Michigan. Despite these particularities, I still think it is useful, for identification purposes, that athletic logos such as the ones you have collected be allowed in, at least, the athletic portion of the infobox as was the case in many schools' articles prior to the wave of edits that removed them. The addition of an "athletic logo" field in template:infobox university could help standardize their placement and size. This would not prevent alternate non-free other or "mascot" logo use in the athletics portion of the text body if desired (e.g. the Pitt Panther or, in the case of Texas A&M, the T-star "Building Champions" logo or Ol' Sarge) which are often more tightly aligned with athletic programs than some of the others that have become representative symbols of the overall university. This would avoid single use per page restrictions while providing maximum information in the most visible portion of the article. I guess the issue is for me on this what is the Infobox for? In my mind, it is for quick profiling and identification of the article topic. Therefore, I believe that it is a disservice not to include such prominent identifying marks in the infobox, and this is especially true when they identify an alternative name such as "Pitt" or "Cal", but also takes on added importance when they are used outside athletic contexts and many of the logos in your collection are used in such a manner. CrazyPaco (talk) 19:08, 6 October 2009 (UTC) I think such a proposal should go to the Wikiproject:Universities for approval before mass additions or deletions. I don't think this is a good idea, but that doesn't mean it can't be implemented. As for the duplication of images, I concur that there may be problems, but Universities typically have a host of ways their logos and typefaces should be presented. Usually there are a few dozen typeface-only options to choose from. I agree that it seems like the University Wikiproject is the place for it. Full circle back to the discussion there? CrazyPaco (talk) 22:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC) As for mixing up Pitt and Penn, I sheepishly admit the error of my ways, quote the mantra of WP:IAR ten times, and humbly beg forgiveness from the great and powerful Oz. — BQZip01 — talk 22:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC) Just don't confuse Pitt or Penn with Penn State, that will really rankle some feathers! CrazyPaco (talk) 22:37, 6 October 2009 (UTC) Athletics articles ...should use the most current logo (regardless of whether it is free or not) in the infobox. This does not remove the obligation to have a proper Fair Use Rationale, if applicable. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC) Sports Seasons/Games/teams/one time events/etc ...should use only PD images in the info box. It seems every sports team has at least one {{PD-textlogo}} image. I'm still working on making sure they are uploaded and properly annotated, but people are welcome to use my current list (work in progress). — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC) There has also been an ongoing debate regarding whether the use of current team/university logos as identifying marks in the infoboxes of season articles represents inappropriate historical revisionism. See: Wikipedia talk:WikiProject College football#Logos on articles of past seasons. CrazyPaco (talk) 17:04, 6 October 2009 (UTC) As to which logo to use, that is left to the Wikiprojects to choose (most teams have more than one). Which types of logos they are permitted to use is the matter I'm trying to discuss here. — BQZip01 — talk 17:47, 6 October 2009 (UTC) That would be my thinking as well, that it is a discussion for the pertinent Wikiprojects. CrazyPaco (talk) 19:09, 6 October 2009 (UTC) User boxes ...may not use copyrighted logos. Other images are left to project preferences and should be standardized as much as possible. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC) Company logos Should just be used in accordance with Wikipedia:Trademarks#The_use_of_graphic_logos. No other guidance is necessary. — BQZip01 — talk 20:04, 5 October 2009 (UTC) The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Neutral point of view

Could this term be changed as it is very confusing, not instantly understandable, and could mean even no opinion at all, even "an inoffensive point of view", which would be riduculous. I suggest: "encyclopedic point of view".

MacOfJesus (talk) 22:31, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

The problem, as alluded to in WP:UNENCYC, is there are so many differing conceptions of what an encyclopedia is/should be that the adjective "encyclopedic" is too vague to be useful. --Cybercobra (talk) 23:12, 3 October 2009 (UTC)

It does mean no opinion at all. The opinions of the author on the subject should have no effect on the article they are writing. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 19:25, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

In the Article page, of course, this is so. All I am saying is, "Neutral point of view" is too confusing and not instantly recognisable. I am sure there is a better term out there, somewhere. Any suggestions?

MacOfJesus (talk) 20:59, 4 October 2009 (UTC)

Neutral seems fine to me - certainly better than 'encyclopedic', but I can see where you're coming fro. How about 'detached', or 'unbiased'? DB 103245^talk 09:45, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for offering a suggestion! We all have a good idea what is meant, but the term!

MacOfJesus (talk) 13:23, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

When my first History Teacher was trying to explain this to me, I was confused then and I think still am over this term.

I think "terse" would be a good concept substitute for "neutral" ?

MacOfJesus (talk) 14:32, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I was attempting to refrain from commenting here, because it is rather silly to try and change the name for one of the longest-standing, and prevasive, policies on Wikipedia. But I think I should add my two cents. First of all, "Neutral Point of View," is just a term, and is meaningless without the entire policy that it describes. While one may have a different connotation for the word "neutral", the policy itself lays out the full meaning of the term. Secondly, neutral does in fact work very well. If a country is neutral in a war, or if someone is neutral in an argument, it means that no side has been taken, which is exactly what NPOV means: Do not side with either point of view. Third, terse means, "concise," or "brief," which does not fit at all. If you find "Neutral Point of View" confusing, read the entire policy, and if you are still confused on certain points, then ask for clarification of those points. Angryapathy (talk) 15:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for coming in on this point. I am aware of what neutral point of view means. Being familiar with historical discourse for many years, I think I know what the term stands for, by now. "Terse", just does'nt mean "brief". The early ancients in our ancient languages concentrated in encapulating the essence of thought in terse verse. This is true of the ancient Gaelic, the ancient Greek, in particular, and certainly of the Latin.

I feel this term is not adequite or sufficient in encapulating the essence of thought here.

Do you have a better one?

It is relatively easy to see how rediculous our arguments are, another thing completely to make a substitute suggestion.

At this stage I would want to turn to the Latin.

What do you propose? positively?

During the Second World War, for example, Ireland was Neutral during the War, but not impartial. Should the historian writing history be impartial or just neutral?

MacOfJesus (talk) 22:15, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

My proposal is to leave it the way it is. I think your example of Ireland in WWII perfectly explains neutral. Aiming for a neutral POV doesn't mean you are completely impartial. Sometimes you have to forget which POV you prefer and aim for a balance of the POV's, thus allowing the article to have a neutral point of view. Angryapathy (talk) 13:38, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

I propose it be changed, as the term is misleading.

MacOfJesus (talk) 17:32, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Request to stop the Vandalism

We would like to ask you to stop the vandalism actions and intervention that have been recently directed towards this page. Thus, there are numerous third party sources such as National Geographic, US Congress Documents and famous journalists' reports, quoted on the page. 10 years of teaching at the most prestigious Romanian University is a long period for anyone, as a Professor. The presence of the material is mainly justified by the role played by Professor Munteanu in the changes occurred in the Eastern Europe in 1989 - 1990. Also, the large quantity of information is justified by his international activities and presence. It is obvious that these vandalism interventions have nothing in common with the norms of an encyclopedia and we consider them as attacks originating from propagandistic areas and believe such interventions should not be allowed in a free encyclopedia. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Bogdan Munteanu (talk • contribs) 08:15, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

What? There's only so much we can do about vandalism. We remove it when we find it, we block vandals when necessary, and we protect pages from editing only when completely necessary. So ummm... yeah, I don't really care about anything else. Go read this page to learn more. → ROUX ₪ 08:19, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Directed towards which page? OrangeDog (talk • edits) 14:29, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

That would be Marian Munteanu presumably some relation. And the vandalism would be removal of copyright text and unlicensed images I would guess. Rich Farmbrough, 18:06, 7 October 2009 (UTC).

Should there be guidance on the development of outlines?

See Wikipedia talk:Outlines#Failed?

The Transhumanist    17:38, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Should outlines even exist? Nope. → ROUX ₪ 17:50, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Why? The Transhumanist    18:28, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

And since they do exist, shouldn't there be guidance on making them good? The Transhumanist    18:29, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Despite that excellent application of WP:IDHT you know perfectly well why, as it has been explained to you many, many times. And the section title assumes they should exist and it's just a bit of quibbling over whether how to write them. This is, of course, emphatically not the case. As for making them 'good', isn't there a saying along the lines of 'can't polish a turd'? → ROUX ₪ 18:31, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Actually, you can polish a turd. --ThaddeusB (talk) 18:57, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I can only remember you side-stepping the issue. Now that we are in a wider forum of discussion, please explain your reasons to this wider audience where they can be properly debated. Thank you. The Transhumanist    20:54, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, there should be guidance, and yes, they should exist. There are excellent outlines (Outline of anarchism, Outline of geography, etc) and many more incomplete outlines (like the rest of Wikipedia, it's a work in progress). They've been linked via the sidebar's WP:CONTENTS page for years now.

Roux's rudeness in all the discussions I've read this morning is unwarranted and unhelpful. Even dbachmann, who has very strong misgivings about the Outline project, recognizes that outlines can be useful constructs[6].

Yes, Transhumanist made some very over-bold & incorrect page moves recently, which he has acknowledged as mistakes.

Yes, some editors (including myself) find his "motivational" writing style to be very irritating, but some editors find it useful. He's overenthusiastic, but that's not exactly a blocking offense, as Roux keeps calling for [7], [8]

Yes, the project needs more work, but so does the whole encyclopedia, in all facets. -- Quiddity (talk) 19:02, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

My rudeness? You appear to be missing TT repeatedly calling me a liar. But, y'know, facts. Who needs 'em? → ROUX ₪ 19:05, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Prodego appears to have deleted the false statements I was referring to. The Transhumanist    20:50, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

In my opinion, the mass of outlines created by this project in the last year or so are a disagrace - the template that is being used includes many violations of the MOS and other guidelines (such as don't include section headers that are empty, don't let templates masquerade as text, don't put redlinks for main/further reading hats, etc), and, more importantly, it appears that many of the people working on these editors are very unfamiliar with the topics. This has led to information on some of these outlines being wrong or misleading. I've been reverted when trying to clean up the areas I'm familiar with (both MOS fixes and content fixes) by some of the more overzealous members. To me, it feels like these outlines are being shoved down everyone's throat with no consensus for their existance, no consensus that if they do exist they should be structured as they are, no consensus on how they should be named, and no consensus as to what they include. For such a massive project, community consensus absolutely should have been attained first - a few large RfCs could have forestalled a lot of the complaints that keep popping up. Karanacs (talk) 20:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Any and all errors in the outlines (I'm assuming you are referring to the country outlines) are fixable. The outlines are continuously improving, and there are dedicated editors working on them daily. I'm sorry that we couldn't produce a completely polished set of outlines on all of the countries of the world in just a year's time. The nature of Wikipedia is that it is a work-in-process, as are all of its pages. We've put in a great amount of work on the outlines to get them this far, it shouldn't take nearly as much work to finish them. The Transhumanist    21:13, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Consensus for the existence of a page or group of pages is the venue of WP:AfD. There is no need to seek approval before starting a page. That's a core principle of Wikipedia's design - click and edit.

The portal project tried to set up a mandatory approval process for portals, and it was cited as the justification for an MfD nomination of a new portal which didn't go through that process. The portal proposal page was quickly shut down. See Wikipedia:Portal/Proposals, Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Portal:Thinking, and Wikipedia:Miscellany for deletion/Wikipedia:Portal/Proposals.

I'm very interested in reading your observations on the problems of these pages, as I'm very interested in feedback and improving these pages (and always have been).

Would you point out the problems, please? You mentioned MOS violations and content errors. Those sound like good places to start.

The Transhumanist    21:04, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm primarily interested in histories, and the outlines I looked at appeared to have included lots of articles that might be in some way vaguely connected with the topic, and then organized them in ways that are misleading. In the outline for the history of Texas, links are included for areas of Mexico that scholars never considered part of "Texas"; places like El Paso are now a part of Texas, but its history (and that of the Mexican province that it belonged to) is usually ignored in the scholarly history of Texas. This means the outline is going beyond the definitions that scholars use (but since they are lists I can't tell whether this is a violation of OR or not). Many links are included that have little or no relevance to the topic (do we really need a link to the 1991 Iraq War on the history of Texas outline?). The outlines do not provide enough context to make sense to a reader unfamiliar with the topic. This, combined with the sometimes interesting choice of what redlinks to include, leads to NPOV problems. Images are jammed all over some of the outlines with little care for whether they are applicable or whether their placement is aesthetically pleasing (do we need an image of the state seal for the article on history when the state seal is never mentioned?). As for MOS issues, many of the outlines I've seen violate numerous pieces of WP:LAYOUT, hatnotes are placed at the top of the articles when the information should instead be in the See Also section, summary style is not being observed as often as it should, .... If you really want buy-in, I'd recommend that you work on "perfecting" a few of these so that you have good examples rather than ones that need tons of improvement. Karanacs (talk) 03:25, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Good examples: The Outline of anarchism is very well developed (thanks to users Cast and Skomorokh), and Outline of forestry is getting there (thanks to user Minnecologies). I think there are about a dozen other fairly high-quality outlines.

Historical outlines: User:Buaidh made most of the "Outline of .... history" lists (and probably isn't following all these various threads), so I'd suggest contacting him for feedback on those.

MoS and other issues: This is one of the fundamental disagreements even within the OOK project. I think it should work on quality first, and seek readers/editors a distant second. TT believes we need to get participation up first, in order to have the manpower/quantity-of-experts to work on quality. (Not a direct quote at all. Hopefully I'm not misrepresenting him there.) The other major disagreement is over scope - I think we should be aiming for a few dozen outlines to begin with. TT has larger ambitions!

All of this just requires more feedback and participation. The project does welcome participants, with open arms. Even curmudgeonly critics who primarily just point out problems, like myself. -- Quiddity (talk) 18:42, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I question the utility of these outlines and suggest that broader consensus that could be reasonably gauged via AFD/RFC/whatnot would demonstrate that aside from the very few users active in creating these outlines, they would have little to no support. I suggest that the outliners consider making their outlines either on a seperate wiki (wikiversity, I believe, would be happy to host all the outlines), or in their project namespace. I further insist that any further outline moves/redirects/whatevers be consider controversial - pages should not be Xed without positive consensus to do so. Hipocrite (talk) 18:16, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Should there be guidance? No. Transhumanist: this is your own crusade, why would you need any external guidance? Oh yes, the old good "write content not outlines" but you've probably heard it a hundred times... NVO (talk) 19:35, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

I echo what NVO said. The argument of needing guidance is flawed, because Outline shouldn't even be there in the first place. OhanaUnited^{Talk page} 16:13, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I've told TT (in yet another probably inappropriate location) that he does not have consensus outside his project that the Outline of … articles should exist under that name. So, perhaps there should be guidance here — that no such article should be created without a clear consensus of all related WikiProjects, and most should be nominated for deletion. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 16:46, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

• They've existed since 2001 (under different names. Originally "Foo basic topics" and "List of basic foo topics").
• There are many editors working on/interest in Outlines. Many of us disagree with each other on various issues (what name they should have, how much prose to include, what scope we should aim for, how complete they need to be before getting moved out of the "draft" area, etc etc). TT is just a vocal and active participant. Please stop stating it is his.
• Please join the discussion of how to organize Wikipedia's navigational structures; that would be helpful. Overreaction is not helpful. - Yes there is overlap, but different systems each have their own uses and flaws. Category/Portal/Navbox/Lists of lists/Outline/Index/Glossary/etc. Help us develop and improve them, goddammit. -- Quiddity (talk) 19:07, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I have few objections to the articles, except for some which appear to be machine-generated without checking whether the topics actually match, or which make an implicit assumption as to the nature of the underlying topic; for example, Outline of Kosovo implicitly assumed that Kosovo is a country, which may not be the case. As I pointed out, the article could not be redeemed to avoid the assumption that it either is or is not a country, so it should be deleted. But, I was shouted down by the WikiProject management, so I see no point in attempting to improve a process which appears to be fatally flawed. I do object to the creation of Outline of ... and [[Index of ...] articles from the same existing unstable List of ... article; the only credible way of doing that is as a (modified) sortable table. — Arthur Rubin (talk) 19:30, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I have removed much of the language which made assumptions about Kosovo's statehood. A red-link to National Bank remains - it could, I suppose, just as easily read "Central bank". Rich Farmbrough, 22:14, 9 October 2009 (UTC).

Someone wondered how many editors had edited the "outlines". Members of the category "Outlines" beginning with "Outline of" (about 2/3 of them) have 2831 different editors. Rich Farmbrough, 22:14, 9 October 2009 (UTC).

Policy against duplicating text between articles?

An editor has asked me on Talk:American Pit Bull Terrier‎ for the policy that states that text shouldn't be duplicated between articles. For some reason I was under the impression that we don't allow for duplicate text, but I can't find the specific policy. Is there one in place (like in MOS) or was I incorrect in my thinking? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 18:32, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps you are thinking of Wikipedia:Reusing Wikipedia content. It constrains, rather than proscribes, such copying.LeadSongDog come howl 18:42, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Maybe. But then, is it acceptable to take the text from one Wiki article and copy it more or less verbatim into another? — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 18:51, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Absolutely, so long as you note in your edit summary (or on the talk page) that you've copied the material from the source article - that gives enough info for later researchers to trace it back to the work of the original authors. But if content in one article would be useful if plugged in as-is to another article, have at it! bd2412 T 19:01, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Hm, alright. I think I came to believe that as a result of following the DRY principle for so long. — HelloAnnyong ^{(say whaaat?!)} 19:20, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

Generally, you shouldn't repeat yourself. If you are in a case where that might be advisable, it's probable that one of the articles should be merged (if they are of the same relative tier of importance). If you are in the case where one article is on a different tier of importance (World War II to Battle of the Bulge), one of the articles should summarize the other, but not duplicate the content exactly. Disclaimer: I say these two things as a generality and have not read the actual dispute. --Izno (talk) 20:19, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

I think when starting a new article which is already a sub-topic covered in another article it can be good to start that new article by copy/pasting the relevant information from the original article as-is to get it rolling. More research and in-depth clarification on the new article will flesh it out and hopefully make it so that there is no longer a noticeable copy-paste job between it and the original article. Example is when I created Arbor Hill, Albany I copied much of what was in Neighborhoods of Albany, New York#Arbor Hill and then did more research to make it more in-depth than the synopsis that already existed at the neighborhoods page.Camelbinky (talk) 23:17, 6 October 2009 (UTC)

If you do that, you need to be aware of copyright issues. Many editors are under the false impression that text contributed to Wikipedia is not covered by copyright.

That's incorrect — the editor who writes it retains copyright. He licenses it to everyone, via two free licenses, GFDL, and CC-BY-SA, but does not relinquish the copyright itself. Therefore you have to comply with the terms of the license(s), or you will be in violation. The terms require attribution.

So at a minimum you need to leave a note in the edit summary, saying from which article you copied the text. That allows anyone to follow the link and find out who originally wrote the content. I can't speak to whether this is legally adequate in theory; in practice I do not ever recall anyone complaining about it provided this is done. --Trovatore (talk) 00:22, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Well in the case I gave I am the one who put the information in the original article anyways and therefore I did give myself permission to copy it without attribution. It was hard to get myself to agree to do that for me, but in the end I gave in... to myself, for you see I can be quite persuasive after I give myself wine and flatter me alot before asking myself for a favor. The fact that the information is being released TO Wikipedia (and irrevocably, as the warning you will see during edit tells you) under CC-by-SA 3.0 and GFDL, it is a legalese question whether or not that means to the Wikimedia Foundation for use in any wiki owned by them, to the Wikipedia community-at-large for any article, or specifically for that one article. I have never actually read our Terms of Use to see the restrictions and they would be the final and binding words as they would constitute a legally binding contract between any editor and the Wikimedia Foundation whenever you edit. So even if the terms of use restrict your rights MORE than copyright laws the Terms of Use win out, because by definition a contract is anytime you give up your legal rights in return for something of value (even intangibles such as the right to edit). A contract is not valid if it is payment for doing something you legally are required to do anyways (a contract where I promise to pay you for driving on the right side of the road is not legally binding you can not force me to pay, you are legally required to drive on the right side of the road). The only thing the Terms of Use can not do is require you to do something that is ILLEGAL. Wow, the things you remember from your freshman year at college over...well, lets say its been over a decade.Camelbinky (talk) 00:56, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

So maybe you'd like to take a look at the terms; they're not very long. The terms definitely do not require you to relinquish your right to be attributed when the license is exercised. This has nothing to do with whether a page is owned by the Wikimedia Foundation; even on the very same page to which you contribute the text, the text is used only by your license, and if the attribution were removed, then the page would be in violation of your copyright.

What you do explicitly agree to (though this is fairly new) is to be credited, at minimum, through a hyperlink or URL when your contributions are reused in any form. That's directly below the edit window. --Trovatore (talk) 01:18, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

After reading the terms of use, I agree with you. In order to copy/paste from one article to another you must in some way provide evidence that the information was gleamed from the first article, using the edit summary would fulfill that obligation and probably be the easiest way to do so, since many would have objections to using an inline citation to do that as citing Wikipedia itself is not allowed, though also making note of what you did in the talk page would probably suffice as well as that would also be a permanent record attached to the article, though probably not the preferred method. If I was the Wikimedia Foundation I would change the Terms of Use to make it where THEY own the rights and you relinquish any claim, that would make the information truly free for anyone to use within the confines of Wikimedia family, with outside uses requiring credit given to Wikipedia. If you are copying information you yourself put in, but someone else has copy-edited for grammar, punctuation, etc; and even added something in the middle to clarify the statement; is it truly still yours to claim, does the other person have more of a claim? What if I wanted to write a book on a topic in which I wrote an article here on Wikipedia about. What if, unknowingly I wrote in that book several sentences that were word for word the same as the sentences I wrote in Wikipedia, simply because my thought process and writing style of course does not change much. What if I intentionally wanted to use whole paragraphs from Wikipedia that I have written. Does the fact that others may have contributed minor bits of copy-edit or even irrelevant grammar or minor word order changes mean I would have to attribute it to Wikipedia. Which of course would then make my book look less reliable to many, including the academic circles, and new information that I put in the hypothetical book would then probably not be allowed into Wikipedia since it would be considered "tainted" by many because some of the rest of the book itself uses Wikipedia as a source and there are strict rules against using information sourced from Wikipedia itself.Camelbinky (talk) 02:21, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

No. You still own the copyright. Rich Farmbrough, 22:18, 9 October 2009 (UTC).

Wikipedia:WikiProject Belgium/Brussels naming conventions no longer marked as a guideline

Wikipedia:WikiProject Belgium/Brussels naming conventions (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) has been edited so that it is no longer marked as a guideline. It was previously marked as a guideline. This is an automated notice of the change (more information). -- VeblenBot (talk) 02:00, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

• Might want some eyes on this, it's plausible a tag war may be brewing. Hiding T 10:09, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Request for Comment on WP:Civil

An RfC has been posted here concerning recommendations for use of the one-line Edit Summary in reverting contributions. Please take a look and comment. Brews ohare (talk) 17:02, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

User identity

hi, i have a question about user identity. i will try to explain without using specifics. there is one article on wikipedia. (it is also a BLP). the subject of the article (call it 101) has several anti "101" websites on the internet. one of the anti-101 writers (editor A) (with his own anti 101 websites) has a wikipedia acct and he has revealed his name and websites on his user page (which i think is line with wikipedia policy). there is another editor (editor B) on wikipedia who shares the same name as one of the anti-101 writers (with several of his own anti 101 websites) but has not given any more information about himself. some of the edits by editor B seem like original research, and the topics seem similar to those he posts on his own website.
many of editor B's comments towards other editors also seem rude, patronizing and condescending. i dont want to harrass the editor and am unsure how to proceed as it is difficult to deal with these editors. (as it seems that their hostility towards subject 101 spills onto the wikipedia article and the editors involved on the page)

i was wondering what to do or how to proceed.

J929 (talk) 21:20, 7 October 2009 (UTC)

Policy on WP:OR and WP:BLP still applies to all edits and editors, regardless of who they are. For more specific guidance, WP:COI may be applicable. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 11:08, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

You might also want to check out Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts if you have specific behavioral concerns about a user. Powers ^<sjectmall>T 12:51, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks!
i tried the COI board and it was said that unless editor A or B is pushing a product or their own websites it is not COI... and to try NPOV.
i'm under the assumption wikipedia articles are based on reliable sources, and content included in an article have to be from a reliable source (and properly referenced). As person 101 is a BLP and is the subject of the wikipedia page, editor B has been making edits about books about person 101. ie instead of discussing person 101 in the biography section, he discusses books about him/her. i asked editor B to move the info to a more suitable section as a biography should only deal with the subject of the article. These edits about books are in line with (same as) the topics he discusses on his own website, where editor B questions the sources (already deemed valid by wikipedia) and books which discuss person 101. Editor B says these sources are only catering to claims made by person 101. hence inclusion of information about books about person 101 in the biography section seems to me like speculation, arguement and a synthesis based on his own reserach and analysis...
"Wikipedia does not publish original research or original thought. This includes unpublished facts, arguments, speculation, and ideas; and any unpublished analysis or synthesis of published material that serves to advance a position. This means that Wikipedia is not the place to publish your own opinions, experiences, arguments, or conclusions."WP:OR

WP:COI says "Editors with COIs are strongly encouraged to declare their interests, both on their user pages and on the talk page of any article they edit, particularly if those edits may be contested." if editor B doesnt fully disclose his full identity (ie his anti 101 websites), is this a form of COI? how then is it determined (or can it be, in not harassing the editor) that editor B is the same person who holds anti 101 websites? (it seems more than coincidence that editor B and the person who holds the anti 101 websites share the same name -- among other similarities). on their websites editor A and B say that they are linked and have communications ie. send each other emails etcs... outside of wikipedia. does this constitute a "group" as defined in the WP:COI page?

i will also look into Wikipedia:Wikiquette alerts.

any suggestions on how to proceed is most helpful...

Thanks!

J929 (talk) 21:16, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Don't get hung up on the letter of the law, and instead apply the spirit of the law. A conflict of interest arises whenever someone edits on something or references they're involved with. Only material that is verifiable in reliable sources is allowed. Explain this to them, revert violations of this, and if they don't stop, request a block. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 11:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks!

will try WP:OR. if nothing changes, i'm not sure how to proceed as theres no concrete "evidence" or facts to prove that editor B is the anti 101 writer (with the same name). will update how things progress...

J929 (talk) 21:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

it seems like things are the same. i was wondering is there any wikipedia body to ask to look into the identity of editor "B"? to pursue the issue myself may be harassment but if editor B doesnt fully disclose his identity then is it a violation of WP:COI? ("Editors with COIs are strongly encouraged to declare their interests, both on their user pages and on the talk page of any article they edit, particularly if those edits may be contested.")
(i do contest his edits and there is concern among other editors about his identity) not sure if this is the correct way to proceed.
any suggestions are most welcome...

Thanks!

J929 (talk) 17:03, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

What to do when web references die? : Proposal

PROBLEM: I faced a problem when a RS web reference died. Now it is dead and thus can not be verified easily. PROPOSED SOLUTION: I came across the site Webcite. I suggest having a wikiProject or some kind of archive here to archive reliable web references when an article reaches GA, A and/or FA class. The reliability is established by the reviewers in the GA, A, FA reviews. NOTE: I thought this was the best place to discuss this. Please move to relevant Village Pump if this is not the place.--Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:21, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, try the internet archive? :-) . http://www.archive.org/ --Kim Bruning (talk) 14:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

My point was to make it compulsory to archive web references somewhere and why not do that on wiki itself? --Redtigerxyz ^Talk 14:33, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Copyright concerns preclude archiving non-CC/GFDL text on the wiki. Hipocrite (talk) 15:00, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Most of our references are to works that are compatible with neither the CC-BY-SA 3.0 license nor the GFDL. We can't legally do that unless they are. For those which are compatible, Wikisource or Wikimedia Commons are usually more suited to the purpose, serving all the other wikipedia languages as well. But the internet archive and webcite exist to address this problem. We don't need to duplicate their efforts. We should, however, work harder at finding ways to cooperate with them on mutual goals. LeadSongDog come howl 15:07, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

See User:WebCiteBOT. Anomie⚔ 16:45, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

If the topic is important, it most likely won't be available at a single source. The reference may be replaced by another reference (online or printed) that references the same. But in the meantime, beyond mere convenience I don't see a poblem citing sources that were available when writing the article but are no longer. Many books I read cite books out of print, books from 2 centuries ago, documents, journals and other stuff that only historians know how to get to (don't expect me to go and verify if in the transcription of the senate session of 130 years ago Sarmiento really said what X history book cites he said). In comparison, what's a dead link? MBelgrano (talk) 12:29, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

It should be verifiable in principle. Which means that it should be possible to get the text via a well stocked library. Out of print books will usually fall under that. Books from two centuries ago should not be used, although the problem here is that such books needs reinterpretation and the text can not in general be taken at face value. Dead links are simply unavailiable. Taemyr (talk) 12:34, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Also, although not necesarily germane, if the reference is a convenience link to an online version of an offline medium, then that convenience link is not required according to WP:V. Taemyr (talk) 12:37, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Blocks and bans "not punishment" needs clarification

At, present a common mantra is that blocks and bans are not to be used as punishment, but in order to prevent further disruption. I think this idea is in need of some clarification. One interpretation of the mantra is that it is perfectly OK for a banned user to return using a sockpuppet, as long as they continue making useful edits which benefit the encyclopedia. Even though a number of people whom I respect hold that view, I respectfully disagree with them, even though the literal wording of "only to prevent, not punish" does seem to support it.

Punishment has a number of different reasons behind it:

1. Retaliation/retribution is the purpose I think most people agree upon that blocks and bans should not be used for. They are not used to "get even".
2. In contrast, incapacitation is the purpose I think we all agree blocks and bans are for. Block and/or ban the user so they cannot continue to vandalize/disrupt/harass/etc.
3. Rehabilitation, hoping that the banned user will learn from the ban and be productive at the end of it is tough. We have specifically abolished "cool-down" blocks, but having banned users contribute to other projects during the ban from English Wikipedia have in some rare instances produced positive results. Whether a user can "rehabilitate" by ban evasion is a different matter.
4. Deterrence is in two varieties
   1. The banned person is deterred from continuing with the offensive activity after the ban expires, also called specific deterrence
   2. Everyone is deterred from offensive activity because bad behavior may result in a ban, also called general deterrence.

When we say that blocks and bans are not for punishment, I think we really mean that they are not means of revenge (retaliation/retribution). The reason I disagree with turning a blind eye to ban-evading sockpuppets is that the general deterrence factor is eroded. A ban is a severe sanction because it means you are kicked off Wikipedia. If the sanction were that "you have to make a new username to continue editing", that sanction loses most of its teeth for someone who has no intention of respecting the ban, and as a result we wind up with a de facto legitimization of the disruptive behavior that led to the ban in the first place. "Is harassing someone worth getting kicked off the website?" v. "Is harassing someone worth losing your current username?"

The blocking policy already says that deterrence is one of the purposes of blocks. I feel that the banning policy should specifically mention general deterrence of disruption as one of its purposes. It should also explain why evasion with a sockpuppet to make useful edits is prohibited.

Using blocks and bans as a deterrent is a punitive measure, and we should not try to kid ourselves by saying otherwise. They are used to sanction poor behavior ("punishment"), even if they are not used to wreak vengeance ("retaliation"). Sjakkalle (Check!) 15:29, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

With regards to sockpuppetry, it is always the user themself that is banned, not their account. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 16:50, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

There's a difference between 'punitive' and 'preventative'. If it's obvious a user is going to CONTINUE vandalizing, ban. And yes, sockpuppet bans are ostensibly on the puppeteer himself, to the extent to which that can be enforced. Generally the socks are indeffed and the master account gets a week or so. --King Öomie 17:06, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

If someone comes back and is behaving, then there is nothing to be prevented. If someone is indefinitely banned, comes back under a different name and behaves perfectly, they should be allowed to continue behaving well, because for all intents and purposes, they were banned as a disruptive person. If they are no longer disruptive, why continue to apply the ban? Consider, if you will, that they will probably never be caught if they don't resume their bad behavior. Irbisgreif (talk) 17:53, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Well, some puppetmasters are indef banned. Case and point: Bambifan101 (talk⁺ · contribs · deleted contribs · tag · block user · block log · CheckUser).--Unionhawk ^{Talk E-mail Review} 17:57, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

Special case. That user created and used 150 sockpuppets, while aware of the implications of WP:SOCK, and thus it was painfully obvious that they had no intention of stopping. --King Öomie 18:34, 8 October 2009 (UTC)

On the other hand we just had a couple of productive user accounts blocked on the basis that they were returned banned users, not on their behaviour. This does seem a shame. Rich Farmbrough, 22:51, 9 October 2009 (UTC).

Collapsing topics/exchanges on article talk pages (governing policy page/section?)

NOTE: I've been around awhile, but never to the Pump ... I'm here because of the underlined text from a talk page template. Please let me know if Help desk is the more appropriate venue for this question.

“ This is not a forum for general discussion of [X]. Any such messages will be deleted or refactored. Please limit discussion to improvement of this article. You may wish to ask factual questions about [X] at the Reference desk, discuss relevant Wikipedia policy at the Village pump, or ask for help at the Help desk. ”

I have been asked what (specific) policy is the basis which allows the collapsing of portions of talk page discussions (by administrators or others).

The general explanation I gave was:

“

• Any topic which is not about the editing of the article of the talk page may be removed or collapsed. Wikipedia talk pages are not forums. The purpose of the talk page of an article is to discuss that article.
• What "policy" says off-topic, nonproductive exchanges may be collapsed? That lies within the implications of the policy that Wikipedia talk pages are not forums, and other general rules of thumb regarding doing what is necessary to maintain consensus building discussion, and nip in the bud distractions from the goal of producing an encyclopedia—with somewhat greater latitude in the context of highly controversial pages temporarily plagued by nonproductive contention.

”

But there was a request for specific WP policy (page/section) applicable to authorize collapsing (of anything by anyone) on an article talk page.

Any specific places in policy that specifically covers collapsing? (Again, if the wrong venue, please direct me.) Proofreader77 (talk) 19:09, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

I doubt there is even guidelines covering that. Except that it is sometimes common sense to do so. I would be more worried about people asking for policy to back that up - it indicates that there is not a lot of WP:AGF going on? We all do lots of stuff for which there is no "policy", there's no policy to ask for policy.... Rich Farmbrough, 20:12, 9 October 2009 (UTC).

Ok try WP:TALK - "Keep the layout clear", "Keep discussions focused" - Minor refactoring edits are still appropriate "When pages get too long" Summarize - refactor. Rich Farmbrough, 20:20, 9 October 2009 (UTC).

(Reply to first of your replies: Yes, what I'd think, too, just making sure.)

re WP:TALK - Thanks (also reading WP:Refactor linked to).

BUT NOTE: Still (pointless) isssue of (recently blocked pair of editors, now fussy) demanding policy (specifically) for collapsing discussions. (And removing collapsed formatting in protest to "no policy" authorizing it, etc.) Such is WP life. :) Proofreader77 (talk) 20:32, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

PS Process/forum question: If the complainants cannot be satisfied, where is the appropriate forum to address this? (e.g., Raise the question at AN/I and direct them there? etc) Proofreader77 (talk) 20:36, 9 October 2009 (UTC)

Advice needed on moving draft from mainspace

While categorizing uncategorized pages from the backlog of WP:CATP, I ran across PIRA/PIRAlededraft, which is a draft version of Provisional Irish Republican Army. It shouldn't be deleted, as there is a great deal of discussion on its talk page about a controversial subject. To where should the article and its talk page be moved? To its creator's sandbox? Many thanks in advance for all advice and pointers to policy. MuffledThud (talk) 22:17, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Does it need to be moved? You could just link to it from a relevant talk page. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 22:22, 11 October 2009 (UTC)

Yes, see WP:Subpages#Disallowed uses. The normal case for a multi-author collaboration on rewriting an article seems to be as a subpage of the main article's talk page, or a subpage of the wikiproject if the project is coordinating (most of) the work. Anomie⚔ 00:08, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for that. Additional questions: Should both the draft article and its talk page be moved to subpages of the main article's talk page? How should they then be distinguished? Would the redirects left behind following the move be deleted R3 as implausible typos? If so, then can they be protected somehow? Note that PIRA is now a redirect to Provisional Irish Republican Army. Thanks, MuffledThud (talk) 04:39, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I would move to Talk:PIRA/draft and Talk:PIRA/draft-talk, and would leave a soft redirect in place. Taemyr (talk) 06:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Why Talk:PIRA/draft, rather than Talk:Provisional Irish Republican Army/draft? Not criticizing, just want to understand the best way to do this. Thanks, MuffledThud (talk) 07:01, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I'd say WP:CSD#R2 (cross-namespace redirect from article space to talk space). Also post a note on Talk:Provisional Irish Republican Army noting that the draft was moved so anyone interested can find it easily enough. Anomie⚔ 11:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

To clarify: PIRA/PIRAlededraft is not a subpage, as subpages are disabled in mainspace; therefore it looks like an article. It be moved to a subpage of the appropriate talk page and tagged with {{draft}}. There should be no redirect from mainspace to a talk page. ---— Gadget850 (Ed) ^talk 15:02, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Are aggregate Google book search results valid in-line references - revisit last week's discussion

This was discussed last week - now archived at [9]. IMO the editors who commented were aware that the question pertained to Gbook search results, since P.'s post mentioning that appeared before the other editors weighed in. Piotrus restored them [10] on the grounds that last week's discussion here referred only to Google searches, not Google book searches. Comments? Novickas (talk) 14:21, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

A page of any kind of search results is almost never valid as a reference, including in this case. The reasons were given in the previous discussion. OrangeDog (talk • edits) 15:13, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I would even go further than OrangeDog. A link to perform a dynamic query is not a reference at all, without even approaching the question of whether it's an acceptable one. Static queries or archives of dynamic queries might be acceptable. Arguments of the form "you can see for yourself that X is Y, just look at the search results" are generally original research. — Gavia immer (talk) 15:26, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

It seems like over-referencing to include references for that sort of thing anyway.

• If a term is only used by one or two books, either point out the books by name or don't mention the term at all. Mentioning every single term that has been used is likely to violate WP:NOT#UNDUE.
• If a term is commonly used, just put a pointer to the corresponding search on the talk page. Then, if anyone asks whether the terms are actually used, point them to it. But if the term is actually widely used, few people are going to ask about it, and nobody is going to be able to challenge it once checking the search. It is perfectly appropriate to tell someone on a talk page to check a search to see that a term is commonly used.

— Carl (CBM · talk) 15:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Please note those links are not used as references, but notes. Before, editors were questioning that those terms are used, despite links on talk showing that all of those terms are used in dozens if not hundreds of printed works, so I added them to the article. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 16:18, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

The solution there is to educate the people who ask about them. Hypothetically, they ask on the talk page, right? If not, they need to be educated about that as well.

More long-winded: Descriptions of terminology will always have the problem that few books are going to give a long list of all the terms used to refer to something along with explanations about how common each one is. We usually make lists of terms by simply noting which terms are commonly used in the literature, not for looking for sources about the literature. So random editors should not expect wonderful citations for terminology in most cases. We have to make do with our own knowledge of the literature, with google searches, etc. to determine which terminology is widespread and which is idiosyncratic. This requires talk page conversation. — Carl (CBM · talk) 17:13, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I agree. So what would you do with the article in question: Tsarist autocracy. I think that the section on Alternative names is useful, and the notes are helpful. Would you disagree with me and argue it should be removed? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk} 17:49, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

I don't think the notes are very helpful, not in the least because the first thing anyone would do to check the article is to do some internet searches. So the notes don't actually add any new information to the article. One option is to put a detailed list of search results on the talk page, then put a comment into the source code of the article to remind editors that there was consensus to include the material.) I will skip the question of whether the section itself is helpful. — Carl (CBM · talk) 18:55, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Policy /guideline page help needed

Note:thread moved from WP:AN

Following discussion on Wikipedia:Requests for comment/Paid editing in June of this year WP:Paid was created as a guideline/overview page of existing practices. Some editors wishing to enact a more stringent policy have, to state it diplomatically, since made efforts to replace it with a proposed policy page. We now have two pages Wikipedia:Paid editing (guideline) which attempts to overview current practice and Wikipedia:Paid editing (policy). They are very different in tone but perhaps are not mutually exclusive. First question - is it acceptable to have both a guideline and policy page? I have asked this but have not gotten a response. If it's not OK where is this stated so we can refer to that as a moving forward jump-off. If it is OK are the current page titles acceptable? If not what would be better? All help appreciated. -- Banjeboi 14:29, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Unless there is issue with the current page and the new page is a draft being written for a proposed replacement, I don't see the merit of having two pages on the same topic, as there could potentially be contradiction. Is that the situation? As you described it, sounds like it might be. Otherwise it would seem a merge might be the ideal solution here, and then the community can decide what level (policy/guideline) it is to be.

Perhaps you should bring this up at the Village Pump, as I am not sure any administrator action is specifically needed here. Baccyak4H (Yak!) 15:41, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Note:Moved to VPP

The current guideline page is a bit more historical and treats paid editing as something that happens and can be problematic but not as prohibited because it's not. A group that kept trying to imply paid editing was forbidden or unacceptable in most cases started what is now a proposed policy page on the subject which is much more ... stern against most forms of paid editing. I have been reading everything on Wikipedia about paid editing issues and feel the policy page is both inaccurate in tone and spirit. The community RfC was quite divided so any page needs to reflect those split opinions. I'd rather allow those interested in working on enacting a policy the latitude to develop their page using as strong as language as they wish with the understanding they wish it to be policy. Once they fell it is ready it can judged on its own merits. The guideline page meanwhile, would continue to reflect current situation of what is technically allowed/prohibited and explain some of the history and reasons for all of it. Both pages are in the development stage and neither camp seems ready to adopt the stance of either being more "soft" or "hard" on the issues. So besides that the two pages might seem contradictory is there an actual prohibition against two pages co-existing? -- Banjeboi 16:37, 12 October 2009 (UTC)