Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games

Summary of Video games WikiProject open tasks

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Since appearing in The World Ends with You, Neku has received mostly positive reception. G4TV editor Jonathan Hunt stated that he was created from the same "brooding mold" as Final Fantasy series characters Cloud Strife and Vaan, stating that it's easy to hate him at first, citing his "over-sized anime hairdos" and "outlandish cosplay street wear". However, he added that Neku's growth into from a "mute teenager" to a "civil human" is great for anyone over 20 who has had to deal with someone like this, and that underage people would probably take more from the story. Gameshark.com editor Brandon Cackowski-Schnell praised Neku and the other characters, describing them as interesting and with their own reasons behind them. Nintendojo editor Andy Hoover described him as an "adamant lone wolf", praising his interaction with other characters as "brilliantly written, with just the right amount of intrigue, humor, and drama." 1UP.com editor Jeremy Parish praised the story, stating that Neku's maturation had him hooked. IGN editor Patrick Kolan described him as a cowled, scowling teenager, stating that he had a "Squall-like chip on his shoulder". However, he added that the character development adds a lot to his personality. Game Zone editor Stephen Woodward described him as a "regular spunky, spikey haired protagonist", adding that he was one of the most emo protagonists ever created. Crispy Gamer editor Steve Steinberg called him the "RPG-standard mopey and disaffected 15 year old". Gaming Target editor Kris Rosado called him a trademark anti-hero. The New York Times editor Charles Herald, however, stated that he was not just an angsty teenager, and that the title of the game refers to his need to expand his horizons through self-examination and working with and learning from others. FileFactory Games editor Eddie Bracco called him a spiky-haired teenage emo and the "culmination of the most annoyingly prevalent RPG-cliches rolled into a single character". IGN editor Dave McArthy called his personal journey as important as the new game mechanics, calling it a journey from being a sulky teenager to being a socially adjusted young adult. He added that companionship and "seizing at what life has to offer" were big themes with Neku. Gamer Vision editor Sarah LeBoeuf called Neku's amnesia a typical story in role-playing games, but added that he forms strong relationships with other characters and discovers what life is about. N-Europe editor Nicholas Hintze stated that while Neku initially comes off as a role-playing game cliche with his spiky-hair, anti-social tendencies, and amnesia, his maturation is fantastic to watch. Game Daily editor Grant Holzhauer described Neku as a reluctant hero and influenced by the emo scene. Game Style editor Adam Gulliver called Neku the "biggest emo to grace video games" due to his mopey and hateful attitude. He added that it made the game unsettling, since players had to be able to connect with him. IGN editor Mark Bozon stated that Neku's story arc is strong throughout the game, and he eventually becomes the character players would like to play as from the beginning. GamesRadar editor Shane Patterson stated that while Neku seems like an ass, players begin to feel sorry for him. His appearance has been compared to Kingdom Hearts' protagonist Sora's; Atomic Gamer editor Matt Cabral cited his baggy pants, spiky-hair, and oversized shoes. RPGFan editor Neal Chandran described Neku as a "spiky-haired, angsty, misanthropic cold fish of a teenage loner", though adding that his various partners throughout the game help his character develop. However, he felt that Neku's development was sometimes too sudden. Nintendo World Report editor Mike Gamin stated that while he begins the game as self-serving and isolated, his partners help his attitude change, adding that the quality of his partners also helped make his development feel believable. GameSpy editor Eduardo Vasconcellos described the game's cast of characters as cliche, citing Neku and his whiny punk teen attitude which makes it hard for him to be identified with. However, as the game progressed, Vasconcellos found the characters to be more endearing. Eurogamer editor Dan Whitehead described Neku as a familiar touchstone of the role-playing game genre, stating that he is "fifteen, moody, and afflicted with convenient amnesia."

Collapsed above is Neku_Sakuraba#Reception. I think it's symptomatic of a widespread problem that I think the project should confront. We have many of these refbombed articles that easily impress people who don't follow the links. The collapsed section above is a stringing together of every Neku mention from the reviews of a single game. Yes, in a plot-driven game, you would expect the main character to be covered in the review. It doesn't make the character individually notable (more on that in a second). This is to say that, of course, the character should be covered, but it would be undue weight to give the character his own article instead of covering him, as the sources did, within the confines of the game/series. This is what I mean by dedicated or in-depth coverage. Anyone can string together an article with paper-thin sourcing—a quote from every review about the character—but the point of the GNG is that we should cover topics in the same manner that the sources do. If sources are not running dedicated articles about these characters, we shouldn't be either. And if it's close enough that we have maybe one source about the character and a bunch of little blurbs, we should be working summary style out from the game's character/plot section within its article (because the source material is mainly little blurbs about the game, and we give due/proportional coverage). Any merge discussion gets caught up on the role of "dedicated" sources as not being a requirement of the GNG, but it's just semantics. The point of significant coverage is to keep in mind how much a source is really about a subject and then to write proportionally. "Notability" as a phrase has a habit of setting editors off. What it really means is "sufficient coverage to warrant its own WP page dedicated to the topic". ("Notability" is shorter.) We do not treat minigames, game settings, or any other constituent elements of a game with the same carefree hand that we treat fictional characters even though those game elements might receive as much coverage in a game's reviews as Neku did above. When the abundant GTAV reviews discuss the lushness and opportunities of Los Santos, we do not aggregate every mention and write an article about the single element because we do not see its coverage to be set apart from that of the game. If Los Santos became the subject of multiple, dedicated articles, the case would be obvious and uncontested. So it is with fictional characters. When a character is notable apart from its game—and like main characters in other media, very few are—there are more than ample sources to prove so. But if we can't acknowledge that Reception sections like Neku's are propping up full articles when we have no real encyclopedic bases for one, then it's hard to have any substantive conversation about what makes a character notable enough for an article because... every character becomes notable with enough reviews of its game. I'd really like to see the project take a harder lines on merging articles such as these. czar 04:07, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

This type of approach to writing character reception is also how those list-heavy articles get used a lot (eg "Top 10 hottest characters"). I know editors are trying to justify notability by adding all those sources but I agree they need to be used more in a summary style, not necessarily addressing each source directly but still used in broad terms. --MASEM (t) 04:48, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I've seen plenty of complaining on the existence of "those list-heavy articles" in articles yet not one policy-based rationale on why they are inappropriate, especially when WP:GNG specifically claims that "Significant coverage [...] need not be the main topic of the source material"; i.e. if the list covers every item listed significantly then it's still a proper source, even though it's a list. Nevertheless, I'd recommend holding your horses for a bit until the storm at AfD/Sarah Bryant (Virtua Fighter) and AfD/Reiko Nagase dies down, as this discussion here parallels much of the problems raised over there. Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 05:20, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Most top X list articles give a name and then 2-3 sentences that really don't "cover" the character significantly. This is a prime example of such a list that does not significantly contribute to understanding the character. (In contrast with the more recent Game Informer top 30 characters of the decade which is not online but easily had 2-3 paragraphs for each character in the list) --MASEM (t) 05:38, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Believe me, it's tempting, but I'll always go for actual commentary on the character in a reception section before "Top Tens" any day. That's the real problem with Aya Brea, too many lists and not enough commentary. But unfortunately, this issue looks like one of those things that can't be handled through any new policies. But if something can be worked it, it would be useful. --ProtoDrake (talk) 08:36, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I'll go ahead and put in a very strong oppose to this idea right away. Undue weight should have no bearing on notability. The differences with characters and other elements of a game is we normally accept character articles on Wikipedia, like with TV shows and comic books, so why should it be any different with video games? I'll be blunt and say that the idea of restricting video game characters only to those who have full dedicated articles in sources to them would be way too strict, especially considering that WP:GNG or any notability criteria in general doesn't even support such a practice, so why do that here? I've never even seen notability enforced quite this strictly on Wikipedia before. Why should cram all video game characters from a certain series into one article, just because they don't have whole articles dedicated to them in sources? To me, that is very ridiculous, and I've always believed that it's just more convenient to give characters their own articles. Even as an inclusionist, I understand why have notability here on Wikipedia, but it gets way too out of hand sometimes, like here.

Also, some top lists do give more than 2 or 3 sentences, so it would make no sense to ban top lists from establishing notability completely. In fact, many top lists I come across discusses the character for several sentences and even paragraphs. For this reason, whether top lists can be used to establish notability really should a case-by-case basis. Not to mention, there was also a consensus a while back that top list can be used to establish notability, depending on the case, which is rather fair, if you ask me. But either way, debates will continue to pop up on what constitutes as "significant coverage". Some will say only a few sentences satisfies the criteria, while others would argue that it would need at least a few paragraphs discussing the character in detail. The bar should not be raised too high, especially when people are more lax with character articles in other media. Kokoro20 (talk) 12:00, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

What Czar is proposing really isn't removed from the WP:GNG in general. I mean, if a video game itself only had a few top ten lists appearances and maybe a paragraph about it in a retrospective about the system it was on or something, it's notability would probably be debated too. The difference is merely that video games themselves are much more likely to get dedicated articles in the form of previews, reviews, etc. Sergecross73 msg me 12:31, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Maybe (even though I would disagree with a merge proposal in that case too), but especially considering the nature of characters being far less likely to get dedicated articles, I do not think raising the bar would be the way to go. WP:GNG also doesn't require dedicated articles, which sadly seems to be a misconception on Wikipedia. Kokoro20 (talk) 12:39, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

We tend to have these discussions every year or so, whenever a bunch of frivolous character articles are deleted, much of the time with more experienced editors agreeing it should be this way, its just that editors making them always seems to outpace the enforcement of it. Its really more of a "lets start enforcing it" than a "lets get more strict". I support it, I just generally don't have that much of an interest in working on character articles, so my activity is usually just quickly trimming out ridiculous "reception" like the type I outlined below. Sergecross73 msg me 12:48, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I admit that I haven't been working on character articles much lately either. I should start again. I even have been interested in getting some of them to GA. I just don't like the harsh attitude given towards these character articles, and I disagree with the whole "let's start enforcing it" thing for reasons I already mentioned in my long post. Kokoro20 (talk) 13:01, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Yes, it does irritate me that many of these character articles "pad" the reception section with every little mention that comes up, often times using random observations or basic descriptions of the character rather than actual reception. (John Smith of GameSpot said "That Sonic, he's so fast! He's blue and faster than that Robotnik, for sure!") Sergecross73 msg me 12:34, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Considering that being a subject of extensive debate, I think what constitutes as "actual reception" should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, rather than a project-wide consensus. Kokoro20 (talk) 12:43, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Er...do you feel that that this type of thing should be considered reception? Sergecross73 msg me 12:49, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

No, not really, but it wouldn't surprise me if some people do. Kokoro20 (talk) 13:01, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Oh, some definitely do... Sergecross73 msg me 13:39, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I should note that notable characters don't need to get as much reception as we'd have for GLaDOS or Alyx Vance, but they should be more than just commenting on the character as a playable element of the game; we want the notably to be more about the character as a representation of the game they are in and its out-of-universe reception, rather than within the universe. That's a point that many of those top 10 lists fail on, they are just taking in the in-universe aspects. --MASEM (t) 14:45, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

But why do they need out-of-universe reception? As far as I know, no notability criteria says that coverage must be out-of-universe. Some out-of-universe reception for characters would be nice, but it shouldn't be a requirement. Kokoro20 (talk) 14:53, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

In general, Wikipedia treats works of fiction from an out-of-universe perspective; we're not a fan guide where every nuanced story detail will be iterated. We want to help a reader that may never have played a game with that character before and may never actually play that game at all, to understand why that character is important beyond the bounds of the game itself; we're trying to establish what type of role this video game character serves in the larger aspect of the video game industry and more broadly, the entertainment industries. --MASEM (t) 15:25, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, its really more of a general Wikipedia guideline thing than a GNG thing, that's why you're not seeing it there. For more information, see the Manual of Style info at WP:INUNIVERSE. Sergecross73 msg me 15:35, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I normally don't see such a practice being held in articles about fictional material though. I see no good reason why we can't use in-universe reception to establish notability, as long as they pass WP:GNG. Kokoro20 (talk) 15:38, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Just because you see it happen, doesn't make it justified. What you're saying flies directly against WP:INU, which itself grounded in WP:NOT. Sergecross73 msg me 15:40, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

I don't see anything at WP:INU suggesting that reception must be out-of-universe, just that articles about fiction should pass WP:GNG and stuff. Kokoro20 (talk) 15:47, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

From my experience, the only time that GNG is met for a character article - that is, having significant coverage - is when that significant coverage is talking about the character out-of-universe - either how the character was developer, voiced, drawn, etc. (production), or how the character made the game stand out, or became iconic to the video game industry, or influenced other characters in other games. This is not to say that all GNG-meeting characters only have this type of sourcing; I can fully believe that it should be possible to find a character where its significant coverage is only from the character's in-universe background, story and narrative so that GNG is still met. But I am saying that is an extremely rare situation that I have not yet encountered - the way this industry comments on characters, the significant coverage is the out-of-universe style. The in-universe coverage (eg "Sonic is fast!") is rarely significant, just enough to establish some descriptors for gameplay and narrative understanding. Also, WP:WAF is a good guideline on how we want to approach fiction in general, and that's where we stress the out-of-universe approach. --MASEM (t) 15:56, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

INU is about writing Wikipedia articles in general, and there's no reason/indicator to think it not talking about Reception sections. Sergecross73 msg me 16:00, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Which bring me back to what I said about what constitutes as "significant coverage" leads to extensive debate. I agree that quotes that states the obvious like "Sonic is fast" is not actual reception, but I don't think banning in-universe coverage in general is the right way to go either. It's something I believe that should just be evaluated on a case-by-case basis. Kokoro20 (talk) 16:14, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

It's not so much eliminating such in-universe but being aware that 1) by itself reception of the character that strictly handles it in-universe is likely not sufficient for notability 2) when you do have a good mix of out-of-universe coverage and in-universe coverage, adding the weak in-universe commentary atop the stronger out-of-universe coverage can be out of place. And what's happening as ID'd in this section is that users are shoehorning in all this in-universe, the top 10 list mentions, and other things that don't really talk about the character atop a section that could stand alone with the out-of-universe aspects. Now, there still is some common sense here. It would be silly of us to ignore how many times a character like Lara Croft hits various top 10 lists that come from how she appears, but obviously there's a lot more coverage about Lara that we can go into about her character's development, various story arcs, etc (particularly with the reboot). I've seen people find one brief secondary source on other attractive characters, start with that, and then flood the rest of the reception with the top ten list entries due to her attractive appearance. That's not helpful to our readers, and the caution that must be made - we want weight on more out-of-universe aspects. --MASEM (t) 18:40, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Which further backs up my case to evaluate in-universe sources on a case-by-case basis, rather than outright banning them from establishing notability. Speaking of common sense, common sense would tells me not to cram a character who gets a lot of reception in character list article, regardless if the reception is in-universe or out-of-universe. Not helpful to our readers? I would have to disagree. I'm sure some readers would like to know much attention a certain character gets, regardless if the reception is about their attractive appearance. Kokoro20 (talk) 19:10, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

It's not banned, a degree of it is necessary to explain concepts or plotlines. It can be used some. The point is, the notability standards should be able to be met with out-of-universe reception. If there's not even enough out-of-universe coverage to meet the bare-bones requirements of the GNG, there's no way there's going to be enough out-of-universe content to write an entire article that doesn't violate WP:INU. If the only sources covering it in detail are in-universe, then all of the content is going to be in-universe, and that's objectively not okay with Wikipedia's current consensus. If you want in-universe-based stuff, there's plenty of places for that, but its not here, its at Wikias and GameFaqs. Sergecross73 msg me 19:19, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

(edit conflict)Case by case is fine, but we do want to have some milestones of where it is reasonable to start from, along the lines I've described. The other thing to consider on your second point is that we do want to be aware that if a character is very commonly on these lists, that's fine and important to include (the Lara Croft case) but we do want to make sure these are valid points. There do exist top 10 lists that I would call out as clickbait, and along the lines of "Top 10 Hottest Chicks/Babes in Video Games" or "The Most Bad-ass Villains", and really that's not even a reasonably fair starting point in trying to describe a character in an encyclopedic way. When these do exist in reasonable numbers, I agree we should not ignore them, but as the example in this section gives we do not need a sentence with a quote for each one of these list appearances. A one sentence summary that combines 3 to 5 sources is fair enough. The above example under the hide section could be cut from 3 paragraphs to 1 following this advice without losing any of the sourcing. --MASEM (t) 19:29, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Well done for actually discussing this instead of just unliterally redirecting it and hoping no-one notices. But I don't think we'll ever get anywhere. I'm in favour of deleting listicle-sourced character articles, but I have been in favour of that every time it's brought up - 2012, 2012, 2014, 2014, 2014 lol. There's more, obviously. The problem is actually worse outside of the video game space, where you have articles like Stacy X, Sway (comics), Mickey Shea, Henry Grubstick without even the typical listicle bullshit propping it up. - hahnchen 20:00, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

Indeed, I think that was someone's reason for calling us being "too strict" in one of the past discussions, the fact that comic book characters are typically even worse off. But the problem there is just that it doesn't appear to be as active of an area. I mean, look at WP:COMIC. They've had 5 edits made in the month of October that weren't related to archiving. We had 45 edits today alone. The problem is that they don't have experienced users maintaining this kind of stuff. We do, so we could be. Sergecross73 msg me 20:41, 14 October 2015 (UTC)

VG editors should get active in deleting comic book characters if they want VG characters deleted. You don't want to be seen as targeting VG articles unfairly when the problem is fictional minutiae across the entire project. I don't think most Wikipedians care or know about the issue of in-universe trivia, to get them to notice, you're going to have to nominate a lot of articles for deletion over a sustained period of time. - hahnchen 21:27, 15 October 2015 (UTC)

I come back to Wikipedia after taking a break to sort out stuff IRL to find this massive wall of text... oh boy. Anyway, I'd like to echo Kokoro20's thoughts and strongly oppose - it's rampant deletionism at its finest, and is backed up by absolutely no policy, and frankly flies in the face of what Wikipedia policy actually conveys. As I'll demonstrate below:

• I see plenty of editors here stipulate that "out-of-universe coverage" is necessary to demonstrate notability, and then cite WP:INU to back up their claim. The problem here is that the guideline has been taken out of context - read what INU actually says and it becomes clear that the guideline is about writing plotlines and removing fancruft, and is completely irrelevant to notability.
• There's people saying that fictional characters need "dedicated coverage" in order to meet the GNG. Yet the guideline says absolutely nothing about this. In fact, there's a line directly to the contrary: "significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it need not be the main topic of the source material." Thus, as long the sources discuss the character in some detail (as opposed to name-dropping, which would be a "trivial mention") then the characters notability is fine, even if those mentions occur within a game review or list article.

When you start using personal interpretations and opinions in citing Wikipedia policy, instead of taking them at face value (as they're meant to be taken) you enter dangerous territory. (Using WP:INU in a way it's not meant to be used, by applying it to notability instead of its intended purpose of writing about plotlines, is a prime example). Another example can be seen in the following quote: "From my experience, the only time that GNG is met for a character article - that is, having significant coverage - is when that significant coverage is talking about the character out-of-universe" - although good-faith and unintended, it distorts the actual meaning of the policy. In actuality, GNG is met when it "[receives] significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject" to quote from the guideline. (Apologies in advance if some of my points have already been addressed. I didn't have enough time to read all the text that's been posted above.) Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 04:04, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

• • Significant coverage doesn't require a dedicated third-party article but it absolutely needs to be more than a line or two as the example that leads this off gives; the character in question is only mentioned briefly in the sources given and little more than that. Otherwise, it is just name dropping or trivial mention. We also have to remember that this is only the issue on stand alone character articles; list articles for characters in a game are fine still, and a better place if all the type of third-party sourcing are the name-dropped style. --MASEM (t) 04:55, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, but the problem is that people are not taking the context of those sources into consideration. This listicle, for example, are more just passing or trivial mentions of the characters in it. This source and other similar ones were brought at the AFD for Frank Tenpenny, but were discounted, just because their listicles. Kokoro20 (talk) 09:09, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

I completely agree with you Masem. But certain other editors don't see it this way - at the recently closed Sarah Bryant AfD sources were discounted or ignored simply because they were listicles where other characters were present (a list that covered all of them in great depth, BTW), or it was part of a game review, or there was no "out-of-universe coverage", etc., essentially the same twisting of policies as what's happening right here. My protests arguing otherwise fell on deaf ears. Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 10:36, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

• I believe this concern is more of a website-wide one. We know a passing mention isn't good enough, and that a lengthy, dedicated article usually is good enough, but there is a lot of subjective, gray area in between, where a judgment call has to be made. If you think about it though, it kind of has to be that way, as some of it just can't quantified. It's not like we could say something like "4 sentences = significant coverage" or something, as the content within those four sentences could vary wildly. In one article, it could be detailed insight into a character, while in another, it could amount to "Sonic is fast. He is blue. He has red shoes. Sonic is cool." I think its something that needs to be addressed on a case by case basis. (If its any consolation, of Czar's 3 controversial nominations, it looks like we'll have 1 keep, 1 redirect, and 1 no consensus at this rate.) Sergecross73 msg me 13:53, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

• (Side note: Satellizer, I know its quite the wall of text, but try to read it over when you get the chance, it does address some of your concerns regarding INU and the GNG. Short version: It isn't so much whether or not the GNG allows for in-universe reception, it's more that, if the only way to meet the GNG is with just in-universe coverage, then that's going to leave you with only in-universe content to write the article with, and that's where the problem comes in, because INU says article's shouldn't be primarily written that way.) Sergecross73 msg me 13:53, 16 October 2015 (UTC)

@Sergecross73: Thanks for the response. I agree 100% that it should be decided in a case-by-case basis, and judgement calls used for those articles in gray areas. However I disagree with the current interpretation of INU - it is a Manual of Style article that details how articles should be written rather than what is written, and it shouldn't be used as an indicator of notability (or whether something deserves an article or not). If GNG and INU were somehow to come into conflict, then GNG should trump INU every time as it is a core Wikipedia guideline whereas INU is something more secondary (i.e. if something violates GNG, you delete it, but if something violates INU, you fix it). That really shouldn't happen, though, as the "in-universe" content can easily be written in an out-of-universe way. For example:

In 2010, UGO listed her among the 50 "hottest girls" in video games, describing her as "quick, efficient, and super-deadly". (taken from Taki (Soulcalibur))

Isn't violating INU in any way as the sentence explicitly says that the list is about video game (thus fictional) characters. It can't be taken to mean that Taki is a real person. Here's another example (paraphrasing the one you gave above):

John Smith of GameSpot wrote that he loved Sonic as he is fast and beat up Robotnik at the end.

Can be taken as an INU violation as it does not distinguish between the real world and an in-universe perspective. But this can easy be re-written:

John Smith of GameSpot complimented Sonic's character, praising his speed and his victory over Robotnik at the end of the game. (emphasis mine.)

Now there is no INU violation as the fictional context becomes clear. Thus, articles shouldn't be removed as they violate INU, but instead should be fixed. To use INU as an indicator of notability would distort the original purpose of the guideline and it should not clash with GNG in determining an article's value. Hopefully my points are a bit easier to read this time. Thanks :) Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 00:06, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

It's not so much the writing style we're using to address those points (which as you rightfully say is using out-of-universe), but that the details being emphasized - Sonic's speed, Taki's efficiency as a brawler character, etc. - are in-universe details that border on gamecruft if we're not careful. I am absolutely sure that somewhere on our VG pages, there is a good example of a brawler game character that has a significant amount of reception across multiple sources about how that character plays in their respective game(s) (whether he is hard to learn but lethal when the player gets the hang of it for example), of which use is not in question. But simply using one comment about a brawler character being quick and efficient is focusing too much on a gameplay element that only those that will play the game may appreciate and if it is only one voice saying that, while everything else on the character's reception is more on out-of-universe factors, it stands out. Particularly when there is no metric here: for the brawler character "quick and efficient" compared to what? Its fine for the off-the-cuff writing style of game reviews, but doesn't work here. The Neko example at the top demonstrates when too much emphasis is placed on trying to find any in-universe point that has been picked up by sources to try to flesh out a reception section. I rather see a slimmed down reception section that highlights out-of-universe points than one that tries to make the character seem more important than they are by stuffing the box with anything that looks like faint praise (and having written the main The World Ends with You article, I absolutely can say that the above example for Neko is overblowing the character; it was the character set as a whole that the game was generally praised for). --MASEM (t) 00:18, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

The crux of my points, which I've detailed above, is that such a viewpoint is flawed IMO as it is based on misinterpretations of Wikipedia policy. The argument that we should redirect character articles in this discussion revolves around GNG and INU - but, like I said, whether something is in-universe or part of a "top 10 list" is completely irrelevant to GNG and INU is, like you said, only about writing style and not "details being emphasized" - you can't apply a guideline to something it's not meant to be used for. There is absolutely no Wikipedia policy barring reception from "focusing on a gameplay element", just like there is no policy barring in-universe coverage (when WP:INU is about writing style) or coverage with other characters. I wouldn't exactly say that "Sonic's speed" or "Taki's efficiency" is gamecruft when they've been mentioned by RS coverage and thus forms a notable facet of their character.

However, I feel we're going off-topic here. So, a quick, tl;dr summary of my points: WP:GNG should be the one and only factor in judging the notability of a fictional character. Everything else is irrelevant and immaterial. Whether the coverage is in a list article or a game review is irrelevant, as GNG explicitly states that the character does not have to be the main topic. WP:INU is irrelevant, as the guideline is not about notability and in-universe writing can be easily fixed anyway (as demonstrated by my examples above). If a character has "has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject", then I feel the character deserves an article. No ifs, no buts, and no misapplication of guidelines or taking them out of context. My apologies for being blunt, but I feel that's the quickest and most straightforward way to express my points. Thanks :) Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 00:59, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

The Case of Ken Rosenberg

I think there are some suggestions above that would make some really easy resolutions for WP:VG/GL, but before we get there, I thought I'd toss this out for the weekend: This morning, Game Informer "Top 10 Grand Theft Auto Characters of All Time" was suggested as a substantial "listicle" not deserving of the term's pejorative connotations. I would ask that you click on it, for your frame of reference. I read this article as the epitome of the articles we should be ignoring when determining whether a character is sufficiently notable for their own article. There is a lack of depth or interest in each list item such that each is treated in a cursory manner closer to an item in a Letterman top ten than to an AFI Top 100 entry (and this isn't even to address how meaningless it is to count inclusion on this list as some kind of meaningful superlative). So, playing along, if this Game Informer Top 10 "counted" towards Tenpenny's notability (as originally cited above), what else would count? I picked the next character: Ken Rosenberg. So in addition to the aforementioned Game Informer piece's paragraph, there are also paragraphs at IGN's favorite badasses, IGN's best supporting characters, and IGN's economics of Vice City, each with a paragraph on Rosenberg. I implore you to actually check the four articles rather than me copy-pasting here. Rosenberg is only notable in an ultra-literal read of the GNG that acknowledges four separate paragraphs in four separate articles about him as making him notable, when anyone actually reading the content sees that there is nothing of substance in those four articles. I'll go further. I used to have a literal read of the GNG until Trade In Detectives—I found multiple articles that covered the company in depth and thought that was that. But if the articles (which cover the company in more depth than these articles cover Ken Rosenberg, Tenpenny, or Sarah Bryant) have a promotional air or just aren't very good reporting, WP doesn't count them for notability. That's why we don't have an article on Ken Rosenberg, that's why we shouldn't have one for Neku Sakuraba, and that's why we should be enforcing the source quality we require of other types of articles. It's a cop-out to say that listicles are okay on a case-by-case basis (because anything can be okay on a case-by-case basis)—the point should be that listicles (articles from RS presented in a list form without editorial credence to the difference in rank and, come on, usu. intended as clickbait) are predominantly unacceptable at AfD until proven useful, the same way that being included in a BuzzFeed listicle wouldn't "count" in any culture-related AfD. We never get anywhere at AfD particularly because someone refbombs a bunch of low-quality or otherwise vapid sources (not unlike the Neku text above) and a horde of passersby at AfD vote to keep without actually reading the sources for what original contribution/commentary they make and how that would make an encyclopedic article. Bon week-end, czar 01:45, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

I think you've identified the problem. "Rosenberg is only notable in an ultra-literal read of the GNG" - thing is, the GNG, like all other Wikipedia policies, should always be read literally, because otherwise editors are free to personally interpret (or should I say misinterpret) key policies to fit their own agendas, there would be millions of different arguments based on these misinterpretations and nothing constructive would come out of them. Editors would also be free to introduce arbitrary restrictions on source usage, such as the "list articles are not proper sources" dilemma which has repeatedly plagued this WikiProject. As for the four sources you've nominated, I daresay that all four of them would contribute their part to Rosenberg's notability as in each a reliable source discusses their opinions on a character. I fail to see how that is not "substance". Listicles from reliable sources should be presumed reliable until proven otherwise, not the other way around.

p.s. Rosenberg doesn't have an article not necessarily because he's not notable but simply as no-one has bothered to make him one (excluded the stub way back in '04). Thanks, Satellizer (´ ･ ω ･ `) 02:46, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Keep in mind that policies are not to be treated as strict law. They're descriptive of our practices, not prescriptive. That's what's been argued here is that if you consider how these have been applied in the past, we would normally handle articles in a certain manner, that if you take a very exacting read of the guidelines and policies may seem off. --MASEM (t) 06:11, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

With that AFD example you posted, just because consensus was against your keep on there with the sources you provided does not mean we should now be enforcing these notability standards elsewhere. Besides, there's also been AFDs that has closed with keep without any sources provided whatsoever. As for "vapid" sources, that's a very subjective term, and is genuinely something that should be evaluated on a case-by-case basis, as I've mentioned before. And yes, many of these listicles come from sources are considered reliable at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Sources, so unless proper evidence can be found that a listicle at one of those sites shouldn't be reliable, they should be presumed to be reliable, like how the source already is in general (unless it happens to be user-submitted, of course), per WP:NEWSBLOG (under the assumption that listicles can be treated like blogs), which merely says to use them with caution and not for extraordinary claims. It even suggests that such sources are fine for opinion pieces, which is what reception is. As for Ken Rosenberg, I agree with Satellizer that most likely is the case that no one has bothered to create an article for him. In fact, if someone were to create an article for him or anyone else with similar sourcing, I would be in favor of keeping it, based on those sources. Kokoro20 (talk) 05:58, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

Reading WP:GNG as ultra-literally as possible and most of the listicle detritus that supports character articles (such as the Rosenberg links) still don't magically become "significant coverage". Satellizer brings up the point above, "The differences with characters and other elements of a game is we normally accept character articles on Wikipedia", which is why I think the problem goes way beyond video games. - hahnchen 18:37, 17 October 2015 (UTC)

I feel a bit lost. For example, both Ken Masters and Sagat (Street Fighter) are notable for being overpowered (that they have to strong moves). Chun-li is popular for being the first female fighter. This results in top tens used in many of these articles. If the top tens or something like that can't be used then I'm afraid lots of fighting game characters should be merged.Tintor2 (talk) 20:15, 18 October 2015 (UTC)

Most of the "top ten" listicles/mentions are not worth individually citing (e.g., "X from Magazine said she was "attractive"), or can at least be combined (e.g., multiple refs added to a general statement). And I think the overarching point is that when a set of characters primarily receives coverage as a group and not as individuals, they're best covered as a group and not as individuals. As for the individual characters mentioned above, if there is little secondary source coverage after the top list refs are combined—for example, if a character is only known for a one-dimensional character trait and has no other commentary—it is almost always best to cover them in a series character list. czar 15:30, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• There's also the case of Horstachio ([1][2][3][4]m[5][6]) ... the point is that it's extremely easy to string together mentions of a major character within any franchise, but it doesn't mean that the character is independently notable (i.e., having enough coverage to justify its own Wikipedia page) from the series article. czar 15:30, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

Rosenberg resolution

I'd like to see some resolution here, so I'm inviting outside parties. (I'd rather not have to create Ken Rosenberg as an AfD test case.) The question is whether the Grand Theft Auto character Ken Rosenberg should have his own article or redirect to another article. To summarize the above, this is a proxy case for the line when listicle coverage becomes significant coverage. The four main sources (already vetted as reliable) are as follows:

• http://www.gameinformer.com/b/features/archive/2012/11/21/2394485.aspx?PostPageIndex=5_1&PageIndex=6
• http://www.ign.com/articles/2008/04/28/grand-theft-auto-favorite-badasses?page=4
• http://www.ign.com/articles/2014/09/12/the-11-best-gta-supporting-characters
• http://www.ign.com/articles/2002/10/24/the-economics-of-gta-vice-city-pt-2

The question is whether these together constitute significant coverage. There are arguments for and against above, so let's limit input to new voices, please. czar 15:30, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• By my personal estimate, "significant coverage" exists if there are enough independent reliable sources that you can write an article about a topic that isn't a mere stub or significantly unbalanced towards one aspect of the topic. This requires the sources to be more than a passing mention, not simply repeat the same thing and be somewhat comprehensive in aggregate. For this character, these sources appear to have enough material for an article, although having some information on critical reception and the like as well would be ideal.Jo-Jo Eumerus (talk, contributions) 19:05, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• These do not constitute significant coverage to meet the GNG. The bulk of information in these articles are primary recaps of the work in question, and barely make it secondary by making some comments on the nature of the character but without actually getting into any critical discussion of the character - eg we're still missing significant discussion on the character that is beyond recapping the primary work. It's great to use to include on a character list article on WP, but not for standalone. --MASEM (t) 19:14, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• For a standalone article on a fictional character, it needs to have sources that are non-trivially about that character. Interviews with the designer about the character design, discussions by critics about the impact of the character, etc. Brief mentions of the character in reviews of the game, or inclusion in top-10 lists, even when numerous in aggregate, do not make up for a lack of non-trivial coverage. So no, Ken Rosenburg cannot support a standalone article, nor can any equivalently-sourced article. --PresN 23:34, 25 October 2015 (UTC)

• I also don't think this would meet the GNG, per Masem and PresN's arguments. There's very little content to extract from these sources. If that's all the coverage he has, then it'd be better if he were just covered in the context of his respective game(s) articles. Sergecross73 msg me 13:49, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

• I'm not an outside party, but I'll make my post here anyway. All my above posts within this whole "Character articles" thread pretty much sums up my thoughts. Again, listicles should be taken in context, because many of these listicles contain more information about characters than you will find anywhere else. Game reviews usually just make passing mentions of characters, while listicles often do not. So, yes, I would argue that this or any other character with similar sourcing meets the GNG. Kokoro20 (talk) 14:59, 26 October 2015 (UTC)

• No. Just two sources (gameinformer and IGN) is a bare minimum to even attempt to claim notability, but even with more similar sources the coverage I'm seeing is way too thin to justify independent notability and an independent article. Consider Pokemon, most of the characters could cite multiple thin sourcing, but almost all characters redirect to a list-of-characters. (Pikachu on the other hand does have an independent article, and it's sourced out the wazoo, including sources such as Forbes.)

Wikipedia:Notability#Whether_to_create_standalone_pages says:

• Does other information provide needed context? Sometimes, a notable topic can be covered better as part of a larger article
• Do related topics provide needed context? Sometimes, several related topics, each of them similarly notable, can be collected into a single page, where the relationships between them can be better appreciated than if they were each a separate page

A game character is better handled in the context of an article on the game or within the context of a character-list for that game, unless the character has achieved in-depth coverage and/or coverage independent of the game. A listicle is thin coverage, but I'd give it a lot more consideration if it were covering noteworthy characters from various games rather than merely listing GrandTheftAuto characters. Alsee (talk) 15:12, 31 October 2015 (UTC)

• Easy No To pass GNG you need significant coverage in multiple sources. All the above mentioned sources just mention the character as part of a list. They are not the focus of a single one. This falls under trivial coverage at best. If the best sources use a list format then that is a good indication that we should do the same in our article. AIRcorn (talk) 05:27, 4 November 2015 (UTC)
• As PresN says, such things as interviews, etc., would be helpful if you want to establish notability. The four sources provided would probably turn into a two-paragraph article, as they all say much the same things. So for right now, no. Eman235/talk 05:01, 11 November 2015 (UTC)
• No - I agree with most of the above users that this would not meet notability requirements for an article. It would be the bare minimum - and would then be a stub which is something that we don't want. Two different websites does not suffice for an entire article nor doe sit meet GNG requirements. You would definitely need more coverage and more independent sources, aside from websites like gameinformer. Cheers, Comatmebro User talk:Comatmebro 21:56, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Review Thread 19

Another month, another review thread it seems. Here's what's going on now.

FAC

• Final Fantasy Type-0 (nom)
• Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines (nom)
• Seiken Densetsu 3 (nom)
• Jumping Flash! (nom)

GAN

• The Fine Young Capitalists (nom)
• Megami Tensei Gaiden: Last Bible (nom)
• Music of L.A. Noire (nom)
• Red Alarm (nom)
• PlayStation 4 (nom)
• Dragon Age: Origins (nom)
• Persona 2: Eternal Punishment (nom)
• Persona 2: Innocent Sin (nom)
• Golem Arcana (nom)
• Long War (mod) (nom)
• Battlefield Germany (nom)
• Fallout Shelter (nom)
• Ni no Kuni mobile games (nom)
• Sunset Overdrive (nom)
• Music of Red Dead Redemption (nom)
• Obsidian Entertainment (nom)
• Tales of Destiny 2 (nom)
• CD Projekt (nom)
• Life Is Strange (start)
• Mega Man Powered Up (nom)

PR

• Killer Instinct Gold (rev)
• Persona (series) (rev)
• Ridge Racer (video game) (rev)
• Obsidian Entertainment (rev)
• Resident Evil 5 (rev)
• Life Is Strange (rev)
• Jumping Flash! (rev)
• Dyscourse (rev)
• Mad Max (2015 video game) (rev)
• Final Fantasy XV (rev)

Misc.

• List of video games in the Museum of Modern Art (nom) (FLC)
• LittleBigPlanet (PlayStation 3) (nom) (GAR)
• Key video games (GTC)

And as a reminder, we still have a huge backlog at Wikipedia:WikiProject Video games/Requests. So if you're interested in making a new article, feel free to browse around. And if you find an request that doesn't fit requirements, you can remove it from listing. We also have over 200 drafts up at Category:Draft-Class video game articles if anyone wants to work on a pre-existing draft. GamerPro64 18:51, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Cool, thank you. I'll consider doing some reviews of GA nominees (I'm not ready for FA yet!), on top of getting the articles on my userpage up to that standard. --Kiyoshiendo (talk) 19:19, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

GA review on hold for The Fine Young Capitalists, with comments. --Kiyoshiendo (talk) 04:12, 5 November 2015 (UTC)

Begging thread

I suppose I'll start this off. I'll take anything (you can already hear desperation there) in exchange for some comments at the Jumping Flash! peer review. Failure at its next FAC isn't going to be an option this time. JAGUAR  22:54, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

@Jaguar: If you have time, it would be great if you could take a look at Ni no Kuni mobile games. A full review for GA isn't necessary, if you're not up for it; just some comments on the talk page (or mine) would be really helpful. Thanks! – Rhain1999 ^{(talk to me)} 03:31, 7 November 2015 (UTC)

@Jaguar: I'll review it in return for an FAC review of Seiken Densetsu 3. Failure's not an option for that one either! --PresN 03:39, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

Thanks, I'll start a read-through now and will leave some comments at the FAC shortly! JAGUAR  16:19, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

I'll expand it out: I'll trade a review (any sort, any article) in return for an FAC review of Seiken Densetsu 3. --PresN 03:50, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

Esports naming conventions

There has been an influx of activity revolving around esports articles and I am admittedly concerned about the quality of these articles. Other than the sources generally being dubious, I've also noticed that their naming conventions have been odd and inconsistent, with some retaining the standard full names that is most common on Wikipedia, while others include a pseudonym in the middle.

The following articles have me worried about their naming conventions: Chang "FreedoM" Young-suk, Chun "Sweet" Jung-hee, Jang "Moon" Jae-ho, Lee "Faker" Sang-hyeok, Lim "NesTea" Jae-duk, Won "PartinG" Lee-sak, AmazHS, Ryan "Saiyan" Danford (Halo player), Reginald (Team SoloMid), Dyrus, Greg "Idra" Fields, GH057ayame, Ben "Karma" Jackson, Victor "Lil Poison" De Leon III, Fear (Dota 2 player), Chris "HuK" Loranger, Carlos "Cpt Anarchy" Morales, Nadeshot, NYChrisG, PangaeaPanga, Dan "OGRE 1" Ryan, Tom "OGRE 2" Ryan, Trump (Hearthstone streamer), Trihex, Tom "Tsquared" Taylor, Nate "Ataraxia" Mark, Kripparrian, Bananasaurus Rex, Luo "Ferrari 430" Feichi, Wang "Banana" Jiao, Wang "infi" Xuwen, Xu "BurNIng" Zhilei, Sander "Vo0" Kaasjager, Grubby, Kayane, Av3k, xPeke, GeT RiGhT, Leffen, Fredrik "MaDFroG" Johansson and F0rest - (that last one I created as "Patrik Lindberg").

What we need to do is reach a conclusion about how to name these articles. DARTHBOTTO _talk•cont 09:58, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I'd say follow WP:COMMONNAME within the confines of WP:ALLCAPS/whatever link that says don't use weird capitalization stylizations. Sergecross73 msg me 11:42, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

In general, I believe screen names tend to be more commonly used than legal names, though if the latter is more common, I am completely fine with this. I have noticed that speedrunners are almost always referred to under their screen names and have less experience with other eSports players. Either way, 'firstname "pseudonym" lastname' is not done on Wikipedia, so the articles should be moved. I personally don't care if Wang "Banana" Jiao is moved to Wang Jiao or Banana (electronic sports player) and I believe this can be done on individual basis. An annoying issue is that redirects often exist, meaning admins have to get involved (which is why I wasn't able to move Vo0). Of course, disambiguations such as "(Hearthstone streamer)" or "(Dota 2 player)" should be resolved by making them more general. "(electronic sports player)" seems popular. ~Mable (chat) 11:49, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

A few things that I would agree on: the page name should be either the person's given name or their handle, but not include both (even if this means disambiguation is needed where it wouldn't be in the case of "John "CoolName" Smith" for example). Obviously redirection should be used appropriately for searching. As for which to use, take it on case-by-case; for most of these where it seems their reputation is only from eSports, it likely will be their handle than given names. (I did a spot check on various YouTubers and found more than likely it was a page at the handle name, not their real name which does tend to be obscure). --MASEM (t) 17:30, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

In my world I'd just make everyone their real name for the sake of disambiguation tidiness, but I agree with Masem and others above that COMMONNAME trumps all and people shouldn't have their aliases in their actual article names. Either David Walsh or Walshy (electronic sports player), not David "Walshy" Walsh. For the majority of these guys, especially those that stick to the same alias, it'll probably be the latter rather than given names (which is one of those weird things I think makes people not really understand eSports compared to professional "analog" competitions, but I digress.) Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 17:44, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

My personal preference is to not go off of gamer tags, but to utilize the first and surnames. A lot of these players are widely known by their real names, like with Patrik "f0rest" Lindberg. DARTHBOTTO _talk•cont 18:43, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

By the way, thanks for chiming in David Fuchs. It's been quiet without you. :) DARTHBOTTO _talk•cont 21:15, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, if we were going by what is gaining the most traction so far (COMMONNAME, no hybrid names) then your example would just end up being Patrick Lindberg all the same. Sergecross73 msg me 18:52, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

It's nice to be back around Darth. Hopefully I'll be more available and active this coming year. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs^(talk) 03:04, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Caveat as always for google search results, but when I looked up '"f0rest" counter strike' I got 385,000 results, '"patrik lindberg" counter strike' and '"patrik "f0rest" lindberg" combined got 44120 results. But I do think this is just a CS thing that players' real names are not as well known because I don't recall the broadcasts introducing them by their real names often, unlike with LoL, SC, and Dota.--Prisencolin (talk) 15:24, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

@Prisencolin:, could you give input and perhaps some explanation, as you applied name changes to most of these articles? DARTHBOTTO _talk•cont 21:11, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

While First "alias" Last is explicitly discouraged by WP:NICKNAME, a number of article titles still use this format including: "Weird Al" Yankovic, Ed "Too Tall" Jones, Don "Red" Barry, Evelyn "Champagne" King, Robert John "Mutt" Lange, Clarence "Gatemouth" Brown, Johnny "Country" Mathis, Greg "Fingers" Taylor, Willie "The Lion" Smith, Clarence "Frogman" Henry. The titles aren't without controversy, however, which can be seen on their respective talk pages. Ideally most video game players titles would use this format, but recently I've been somewhat convinced that many editors aren't going to allow this to happen so I've also been somewhat in support of just using the gamertag/alias only per WP:STAGENAME/WP:NICKNAME. I'm not sure if this is possible but alternatively, something I've noticed with Korean language reporting is that usually they will list the first mention of a player as "real name" (alias), but this is probably not acceptable in English.--Prisencolin (talk) 03:07, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Has this aspect of WP:NICKNAME ever been properly discussed? Though 'first "pseudonym" last' is against guidelines, why exactly is this? Have this guideline been under discussion before? Also, the example given in the guideline is particularly moot ("Bill" is a common shortening of "William"), meaning that it might not even be a bad idea to differ from this guideline of video game players. ~Mable (chat) 10:19, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm sure it has - WP:NICKNAME is a Wikipedia Guideline, not just some consensus achieved at a WikiProject level. Website-wide rules don't just "appear". It more or less is another way of enforcing the WP:COMMONNAME concept. I also don't see why esports players would be a reason to go against this. The esports namespace isn't exactly crowded with variants of "Gatemouth" and "Frogman". Sergecross73 msg me 13:32, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Names such as "Vo0" and "HuK" can be somewhat annoying though, even if they are unique. I know it is not a WikiProject-only guideline, but guidelines are also not solid rules per se. I brought this up because I don't want people to make decisions based on a guideline that might not even entirely apply to our situation - I personally still prefer using one name (generally the screen name) over a combination, though. ~Mable (chat) 14:13, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Indeed. With WP:NICKNAME/WP:COMMONNAME already established, there's already a standing consensus is against these hybrid names, and this discussion isn't showing anywhere near the support needed to override that, so I think its safe to say they're out. And yes, while some of these screen names are irritating, some will be less-so when putting MOS:CAP/WP:ALLCAPS into place, so we'd have "Huk" instead of "HuK" at least... Sergecross73 msg me 14:33, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

There is the option to just ignore all rules though, if it's really necessary.--Prisencolin (talk) 14:35, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, I guess, but...usually you'd want a pretty good reason to just IAR. I'm not sure I see one - this all can uncontentiously fit into the guidelines in place. We don't seem all that divided on this, and even if we were, we could always do an RFC to get some outside input on. (Besides, if we just decide to cite IAR wantonly, outside experienced editors are likely to challenge those changes anyways.) Sergecross73 msg me 14:45, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

So I asked in this thread at Wikipedia:Article titles whether it is acceptable to use "first 'alias' last" in the title, and one response I got was that you can if it's for purposes of title recognizability. If you look up (withou quotes) "faker league of legends", "f0rst counter strike" or "nadeshot call of duty", in the reliable video game sources search, it seems as many sources do introduce them with that format.--Prisencolin (talk) 01:23, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Disambiguators

A few weeks ago there was discussion on the disambiguators and there was emerging consensus that (gamer) (or (video gamer)) were preferable and sufficient disambiguators. The type or title of the games being played (Hearthstone, DOTA, FPS), the level of play (pro, esports, amateur) or the medium of distribution (speedrunner, streamer, tournament player) were considered to be superfluous when it comes to disambiguation. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 17:47, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Just because of other recent situations on the "gamer" term (which I don't need to get into here), might I suggest a more neutral "(video game player)"? That's less of a neogolism as well. --MASEM (t) 17:53, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Also, "(video game player)" is consistent with "(poker player)" and "(chess player)" which are used in those fields when they are needed. --MASEM (t) 17:58, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I support "gamer". It is what it is, regardless of connotations and associations, and its the most precise. Even "video gamer" seems excessive, as there's really nothing to disambiguate from. (Its not like gamer is ever used in relation to a pro Monopoly (board game) player or something. Sergecross73 msg me 18:04, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Agree with Sergecross73, especially as Gamer makes it clear. -- ferret (talk) 18:08, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

I like "video game player", but "gamer" seems fine as well. No particular preference. ~Mable (chat) 18:55, 9 November 2015 (UTC)

Generally players of a sport is disambiguate by the sport they play, such as John Roberts (Australian rules footballer) (edit:as opposed to John Roberts (athlete), but in the later case there are multiple sports players with that name). Strictly speaking I don't see "video game player" or "gamer" as specific enough because players are usually only notable for playing a single game, or sport if you will. While something like Hai Lam (League of Legends), might not be very concise, at least it's precise as it actually describes the game they play. Also see Category:Game players, most of the articles are disambiguated by the game they play.--Prisencolin (talk) 03:14, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

@Salvidrim: could you link me to that discussion?--Prisencolin (talk) 04:14, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Video games/Archive 116#Disambiguators, but this one has already has more participants. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 04:19, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm not a fan of using using the game they most play as a disambiguator because it looks too much like how we name in-game characters with generic names, like Toad (Mario) or Ryu (Street Fighter), for example. It makes it confusing to tell, upon first glance, what their relationship to the game is, without something like "gamer" or "player" in there. But if you add that in, unless there's someone with the same name playing the same game, you're coming into WP:PRECISION problems...which is why I think its better to stick with something like "gamer". Sergecross73 msg me 13:45, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Good point, I agree that confusion with fictional characters is a reason to keep the disambiguators different as well. ~Mable (chat) 14:07, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Field goal (basketball) and Joe Alexander (basketball) both use the same parenthetical disambiguator, but there shouldn't be any concern that "Joe Alexander" is a strategy/element of basketball or that "field goal" is the name of a player. If need be we could just use (game player).--Prisencolin (talk) 15:13, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, of course those two aren't confusing, it's not two names - one is a name, and one is terminology. No one would be confused of if "Field Goal" sounds like a name or a character or player. Basketball's not a good example of what I'm talking about anyways, as there's generally no fictional "in-game" basketball characters to confusing with the players themselves. Sergecross73 msg me 15:21, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Very few people could tell what occupation Etchegaray did if they saw the link Etchegaray (pelotari), but it doesn't matter because the disambiguator is specific enough, and perhaps its also a bit meaningless for those who don't know what pelota is. Also the reason why editors didn't select the title as Etchegaray (sports) or Etchegaray (athlete), is because the individual in question does not really play "sports", and is not necessary comparable to say Wade Davis (baseball) (edit: which is also the short name of the Reconstruction-era Wade–Davis Bill). Similarly, the video games played competitively are incredibly diverse and span multiple genres, I just don't feel like it would be right to see Gonzalo "ZeRo" Barrios in the same vein as Hai Lam (League of Legends).

Even if someone may confuse the title of Faker (League of Legends) or Banana (Dota 2), with an in-game character or item or something, does it really matter? I fail to see any drawbacks to what you're suggesting, even if there is some initial confusion by someone unfamiliar with the subject, one look at the page will tell you exactly what its referring to. In any case, "first 'alias' last" title formatting should be able to avoid disambiguation at all so this is pretty much a null issue.--Prisencolin (talk) 00:52, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Is your stance really "does it really matter" if the term fails WP:RECOGNIZABILITY, in any case, violating WP:NICKNAME makes it a non-issue? This approach is neither supported by guidelines...or even really anyone in these discussions so far. I don't think your reconciling your personal views with Wikipedia very well here... Sergecross73 msg me 01:38, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

If you're going to put it that bluntly, then yes. But whether a title like Faker (League of Legends) would not satisfy recognizably requirements isn't a clear-cut as you make it, as the guidelines described on WP:AT are quite vague. As for whether or not its okay that a title violates WP:NICKNAME, see the list of excepts I posted earlier.--Prisencolin (talk) 02:15, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

According to this, "gamer" has recorded usage going back to the 15th century, so I don't really think its much of a neologism. Plus is almost standard English to attach "-r" to mean an occupation; a "footballer" plays "football" just as a "gamer" plays "games".--Prisencolin (talk) 11:57, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

I personally really wouldn't mind "(esports player)" and "(speedrunner)" to be used, but we'd have to decide on a list of "proper" disambiguaters. Should we use the vague "streamer"? Is "let's player" appropriate? Etc, etc. I really dislike ambiguating per video game (such as "(League of Legends)" or "(League of Legends player)"), in part because many professional gamers play multiple games (even if they are better known for one than the other) and mainly because I feel it is more precise than needed for disambiguation purposes. My preference now does lie with "(video game player)" ~Mable (chat) 10:13, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

My first preference is for "(video game player)". I'll settle for "(gamer)", as well. DARTHBOTTO _talk•cont 10:18, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

In situations where a player is notable for playing multiple games, like Manuel "Grubby" Schenkhuizen, "name" (gamer) should probably be fine. However the majority of notable gamers are notable for their achievements in a single game. I think it's a good idea to specify the game played, as there is not such thing a "video game", whereas Charles Congdon (cricketer) doesn't really play "sports", he plays cricket. Another reason "gamer" shouldn't be applied is because players of different games don't compete directly against each other, so they shouldn't be seen in the same context.--Prisencolin (talk) 11:47, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

This is overly WP:PRECISE: Usually, titles should be precise enough to unambiguously define the topical scope of the article, but no more precise than that. The other reason to prefer "gamer" or "video game player" is that these terms are widely-WP:RECOGNIZABLE to a non-video games audience; "DotA" is not. --Izno (talk) 21:19, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Not to mention that several gamers, such as Idra and Artosis, play/played multiple games at a competitive level. DARTHBOTTO _talk•cont 21:36, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Dota should be recognizable enough to a non-games audience, I mean you can reasonably assume its some sort of occupation. @DarthBotto, I guess then in the cases with those players "gamer" or "video game player" would be okay.--Prisencolin (talk) 02:22, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I've been seeing good reasons to put the title of a video game in the disambiguation, and though the fact that various video game players are notable for various games can be a serious issue (Take PangaeaPanga, for instance. Though he wouldn't need a disambiguator, what would it even be if he did need one? "(Super Mario)"? Or just "(Video game player)"?), I suppose I can accept it if "video game player" would be the equivalent to "athlete" in sports. Something I want to point out, however, is that "(Dota)" doesn't seem appropriate, much like how "(chess)" or "(basketball)" usually isn't appropriate for sports players. I don't take any issue at this point with "(Dota player)" or "(Counter Strike player)", even if such specific disambiguators aren't technically necessary, as we are talking about specific fields. We don't call "(biologist)" a "(scientist)" either, after all (nor do we call them "(biology)")

Oh, and less of a pressing issue, it will be a pain to get the italics right in these article titles > ~ < ~Mable (chat) 08:23, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't know too much about science as a profession, but taking a quick look at Category:American_scientists we see there is a large array of disambiguators, ranging from just "chemist" to "electrical engineer", and even "chewing gum maker"; technically all of these could be just "scientist". Another issue lies in the fact that there isn't a quick suffix that can be attached to "League of Legends" to mean occupation ("LoLer" maybe), in this case I still think that just "league of legends" is fine. Concerns about someone thinking Faker (League of Legends) is about an in-Champion are probably valid, but ultimately it doesn't really affect the titles recognizability too much.--Prisencolin (talk) 09:20, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

• I suppose [[Nickname (video game player)]] would be a standard solution (when the Nickname is ambiguous). Also note (at WP:NCP#Disambiguating): "Try to avoid using abbreviations or anything capitalized or... (i.e. within the parenthical disambiguator)" (bolding added), so naming video games or whatever that needs capitalization is definitely not a preferred standard solution for a parenthetical disambiguator.

Re. [["Weird Al" Yankovic]] – that's the guy's common name, quotation marks and all. See discussion at Wikipedia talk:Naming conventions (people)/Archive 13#Contradiction between WP:NICKNAME and WP:TITLEFORMAT. That's how it is for this guy: Wikipedians didn't throw together first name, nickname in quotes, last name - "Weird Al" Yankovic is simply how the name appears in reliable sources, as his stage name or whatever, compliant to WP:NICKNAME.

Serialization of article titles for video game players on either [[Firstname "Nickname" Lastname]] or [[Nickname (Named Video Game)]] (or such variants), or adding disambiguating terms in cases where no disambiguation is really needed would be incompatible with current rules, so would require a change of WP:NCP, maybe even a change of WP:AT (for adding unnecessary disambiguators), changes which seem unlikely to ever happen

Note that some time ago there was something similar regarding wrestlers (some preferred the [[Firstname "Nickname" Lastname]] format there too), well it didn't happen: current rules seem OK to address article titling in various areas. --Francis Schonken (talk) 09:28, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I still don't understand why we'd do "(name of field)" rather than "(name of occupation)", i.e. "(Dota)" rather than "(Dota player)". What reason is there not to add the "player" part? "Chemist", "electrical engineer", and "chewing gum maker" are not "chemistry", "electrical engineering" and "chewing gum" either. The noun refers to what the person is. The only consistent exception I know to this is when we're dealing with a fictional character or item. ~Mable (chat) 09:42, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm interpreting the use of "try" as meaning it's only a recommendation, not actual policy. In any case the problem is that League of Legends is capitalized because it is a title of a game that was created by a company, whereas football was not really created and published like other games are. Also I do want to point out (American football) is widely accepted as a disambiguator, as seen in Jeff Scott (American football).

You can't really just attach "-er" or "-ist" to Dota to get Dotaer or something in a formal context, although admittedly you can get "gamer" from "game"--Prisencolin (talk) 10:04, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Rough Draft RFC

It was requested that I write up an RFC on the matter. I've created a rough draft at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Sergecross73#Rough_Draft - any input or tweaks before its made into a full-fledged RFC? Also, I've realized that, as much as I tell people to start RFCs, I don't do them very often personally, so if no one objects, feel free to be bold and just make it into an actual RFC. Sergecross73 msg me 15:46, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

I really like this draft - very nicely done. I would like to get consensus on what disambiguation to use before moving these articles. It would be nice if we could be consistent :) ~Mable (chat) 16:03, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

List of last games released on video game consoles

Thoughts on this list? I've been watching it change for the past few months and I don't see it going anywhere. All the claims of being the last game turn out to be original research (few sources exist to declare the superlative, and the chosen game's release date is still hard to source). And there are disagreements as to what constitutes the last game. Anyway, ideas? czar 04:13, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

• Personally I don't like having these "last release" lists for the very points you mention. At the minimum they open up a can of worms of what constitutes a released game and whether or not homebrew or unlicensed counts (especially unlicensed that was commercially sold, even in limited quantities) and leads to a perpetual holy war... Once you allow unlicensed anyplace then literally "last release" becomes meaningless. Especially when you factor in the developers doing revival games for old platforms. They're commercial releases, and in some cases they are able to secure latent licensing. Leave the topic to an external resource. I would think having comprehensive lists is already well enough, just date sort the list if it's that important to a reader. BcRIPster (talk) 09:57, 10 November 2015 (UTC)
• I find it interesting in theory, but is it very well sourced/documented? It seems mostly unsourced, and in a quick skim through, I've already found errors. (Brandish (video game) isn't the last PSP digital release, Summon Night 5 doesn't have a release date yet, Class of Heroes 3 is set to come out later than Summon Night 5, etc etc.) Sergecross73 msg me 15:07, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Inappropriate. There is no way this could meet WP:V across all platforms. I can see a few select cases that have been noted in third parties, but this is otherwise original research. --MASEM (t) 15:13, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

• Nominated for deletion: Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of last games released on video game consoles czar 16:01, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Free Szczepaniak book

John Szczepaniak wrote a book, The Untold History of Japanese Game Developers, of rare dev interviews. Wanted to give a heads up that the digital book will be free on Amazon this Thursday through Saturday. Also the raw interviews are going up online and would make great self-published sources. czar 22:44, 10 November 2015 (UTC)

Just downloaded, thanks! --PresN 19:04, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Is this usable sales data?

It's estimates by a market research group but Polygon is reporting it: http://www.polygon.com/2015/11/10/9673936/elder-scrolls-bigger-than-fallout-sales-data-report --Mika1h (talk) 21:37, 11 November 2015 (UTC)

Just cite the organization making the claim, "According to EEDAR, ...". It's an RS reporting on what appears to be a reliable firm with access to certain numbers but can't give a big picture, so it's fair. --MASEM (t) 20:40, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, as long as the context is provided - not just "X game sold Y copies." as a cold hard confirmed fact - you should be good in this case. Sergecross73 msg me 21:35, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Wich golf-game is that?

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

---

I've played a golf-simulator on a IBM-PS1 when I was young(er) that claimed to have real sound. (during startup the game actually told you this) It must be from the mid 90^s and was one of the first games that actually spoke. I have absolutely no idea what the name of this game was so I'd like to ask anybody who thinks to know this game to help me out. Thanx in advance: Oxygene7-13 (talk) 18:49, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

The first games that actually spoke were in the very early 80s, such as Spike (video game). Other than that, I don't know. ~Mable (chat) 19:18, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

But... that ain't no golf-game... Oxygene7-13 (talk) 19:20, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Well, yeah, and also not an IBM-PS1 game, but I don't know which game you are looking for, so I figured I'd tell you all I know about early voice-synthesis in video games.

I suppose I should also notice that this isn't really an appropriate place to ask about this, as the WikiProject talk page is really intended for improving articles and isn't a forum, not that I really mind a personal question here or there ^_^ I hope someone else knows the game you mean. Perhaps a place like GameFaqs is a better place to ask. ~Mable (chat) 19:54, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Gamefaqs? Could you place the right link for me? Next time I'll go there. Oxygene7-13 (talk) 20:08, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

You know what this reminds me of..? This Simpsons parody. :D. Apparently it's a spoof of the real game called Lee Trevino's Fighting Golf. That might be what you're after.--Coin945 (talk) 20:17, 12 November 2015 (UTC)

Because I'm restricted by a white-list, I can't go to youtube... But the game I'm looking for is 100% serious, no spoof, no fighting, just a simulator that tried to be as realistic as it was possible in those days. Oxygene7-13 (talk) 11:11, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Lee Trevino's Fighting Golf is neither a spoof not a fighting game. It is indeed a serious golfing game. And I would recommend you look it up on Google Images because there's a high chance that this is your game.--Coin945 (talk) 11:14, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

Just checked, no it's not. The graphics were better than that game, LTFG looks like it was 8 or 16-bit and the game I'm after looks (much) slicker, sorry. Oxygene7-13 (talk) 12:05, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

I hate to be rude, but as mentioned above, discussion like this isn't really what this talk page is for. If you've got questions about writing video game articles, use this talk page. If you've just got personal questions about video games in general, then try Google or Gamefaqs. Sergecross73 msg me 13:31, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Recombobulating List of Nintendo Direct presentations

Hey there all~! Dropping in with another plan for improving Satoru Iwata-related topics. I have a slight pipe dream of creating a featured topic around the late Mr. Iwata and the article mentioned in the title is one of the targets (the other would be List of Iwata Asks interviews and potentially his gameography—rather than arbitrarily picking games to include—which I have tucked away in a sandbox for the time being). Anyways, since Nintendo Direct is fresh on everyone's mind after it's grand return yesterday I thought it would be a good idea to try and whip the article into shape. The current style is hardly informative to the reader, merely giving dates of the broadcasts and only mentioning content when it's a game-specific Direct.

To alleviate this, I came up with a potential replacement table (see here for example) that would give us leeway to include some of the actual content of the broadcasts. Since some of the Nintendo Directs have long lists of games that are either announced or covered, I got to learn a nifty new feature with tables and added a scrolling component to forcibly limit the length shown. I've used yesterday's Direct as an example of such. As per normal with the tables I make, there's a notes column which I think will largely go unused aside from noting non-video game topics (mostly just Amiibo) or relatively major info, such as Cloud being introduced in Smash Bros. or if it's a special Direct broadcast (i.e. Mini, Micro, etc.). I'd like to get some of your thoughts on this so we can maybe get this beast back in order. Thanks in advance, everyone! ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 17:53, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

I very much appreciate the effort, as the current list is unreadable to me. The list on this userpage of yours currently looks much easier to understand. I also believe that newly announced games and large updates should definitely be listed, if possible. The way you've done it in your draft seems appropriate~ Listing all games covered within each direct might not be entirely appropriate, but I am sure it should be easy to source these micro-lists if needed, and these scrolling tables would definitely be the best way to do them. I'm rather neutral on this aspect.

Getting all prior Directs into this new format is probably going to be a huge pain, but it seems to be an improvement to me. One thing I have noticed is that many Nintendo Directs have a name or a type, such as "Splatoon Direct" or "Nintendo Direct Micro" respectively. I think it is much more important to list this aspect prominently than listing each game covered in a video. Your current format only really allows this in the notes column, which seems odd. ~Mable (chat) 22:48, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

• The new table does look better, but I'm asking myself if an article like this is even needed? Nintendo Directs are just advertisements for upcoming Nintendo games, and while they may be notable, it's a pain to manage an article on them, as you have proven. ~ Dissident93 (talk) 23:09, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

• Yeah, I want to say that it was turned into a list article years ago when someone brought up notability concerns with the topic itself. I can't find the exact discussion though, it was years ago. I'm not crazy about either forms of the article, but I can't deny that it's a helpful wiki-link, making it so I don't have to explain what one is every time I create a new Nintendo article that was announced in one... Sergecross73 msg me 23:35, 13 November 2015 (UTC)

I would believe that Nintendo Direct is definitely notable, as both announcements of new Nintendo Direct presentations as the content of said presentations are covered by reliable sources. Whether it is appropriate to have a list of Nintendo Directs is more difficult to decide, but we should definitely have the sources to do so. It might make more sense to simply have an article titled "Nintendo Direct" with barely any specific games mentioned in it anywhere, but I suppose that would be difficult to do, as there is indeed not that much to say about it. A permanent stub wouldn't be a big problem, but it is not optimal.

The fact that List of Nintendo Direct presentations is difficult to maintain shouldn't be a reason not to try to keep it, right? ~Mable (chat) 09:44, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

Pardon my lack of replying...been busy with trying to keep the Paris attacks article in order. 'bout to head off for the night (or what's left of it, already 5 am here) so I thought I'd at least drop a comment. Notability for Nintendo Direct is already established via numerous reliable sources documenting it. Nintendo Magic covers it briefly as well, but there's really not much to substantiate an article on the topic itself—I'm not a fan of perma-stubs either. As for the special Directs (such as ones focused on single games), maybe a separate table specifically for them is appropriate? This is, of course, if my suggested format is maintained. If we scrap listing all the games it'll be easier to integrate the game-specific Directs with the main series. ~ Cyclonebiskit (chat) 09:53, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

I recommend "games covered" and "third party titles", keep the "new games announced" and "notes", and add a column for presentation titles or something of the like. This should make the table both easier to maintain while giving readers an appropriate amount of information. It can be difficult to decide which news is worth mentioning in this list, however. To take the recent presentation as an example:

• Cloud being added to Super Smash Bros. is the most covered news from the presentation by far, so it should probably be mentioned.
• "Linkle" (female Link in Hyrule Warriors) seems to covered a lot, and could be mentioned.
• The original Pokémon games being released on the 3DS Virtual console seems to be covered a lot, and could be mentioned.
• The January Amiibo wave seems to be covered a lot, and could be mentioned.
• Two new Splatoon levels were announced as well as other updates.
• This is the first Nintendo Direct presentation since Iwata's passing, which is what the video starts off with, and this could be mentioned.

However, if we mention all of these things, we might as well just go ahead and mention all games covered in the video. We have to decide for some kind of balance, but I have no idea how. New game announcements are the only obvious ones to include. ~Mable (chat) 10:16, 14 November 2015 (UTC)

We could stand to have a guideline on lists of video games per console formatting

That is, I have recently been looking at these lists and feeling kind of put off by how inconsistent they are in their style. Some have genres, some do not. Some have releases for all regions, some have releases for some regions, some have limited information for release (ie by year, or by first release), and some don't list any release dates. Some say the publisher/developer, some say either or neither.

Though perhaps there already is a guideline on this stuff and all that needs to be done is implementation. - New Age Retro Hippie (talk) (contributions) 08:16, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

On Peer Reviews

Just a heads-up for anyone planning to use WP:Peer Review in the future. User:PeerReviewBot, the bot that archives peer reviews after a certain period, has not been working since June. Peer Reviews at this time have to be closed manually. GamerPro64 19:50, 15 November 2015 (UTC)

PS4 and the terrorist attacks in Paris

If you would, please comment at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:PlayStation_4#Instrument_of_terror

Articles like http://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2015/11/14/why-the-paris-isis-terrorists-used-ps4-to-plan-attacks/ are arising, and I'd like input on whether or not it should be included in the article, and if so, how/where. Thanks. Sergecross73 msg me 16:23, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

• "An ISIS agent could spell out an attack plan in Super Mario Maker’s coins and share it privately with a friend, or two Call of Duty players could write messages to each other on a wall in a disappearing spray of bullets." Oh boy one of these articles. You know the ones. Also, mentioning Super Mario Maker in an article about the PS4. Grand. GamerPro64 16:32, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
• One thing to keep in mind from prior consensus is that Forbes contributors (which Paul Tassi is) we generally have not considered as a reliable source for facts (opinions, yes). I'm not saying that what Tassi is reporting here is factually incorrect (read: I can totally believe that PSN is poorly monitored and a potential vector for such unmonitored communication), but until we have confirmation that PSN was used in this manner from an RS, best to keep it out, otherwise its fearmongering. (And if anything, that's more a PSN issue than a PS4 issue) --MASEM (t) 16:46, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
• That PSN is used to communicate stealthily by various organizations (terrorist or otherwise), I certainly believe. But clearly this guy has never tried shooting at a wall in Call of Duty -- just making a goddamn smiley face is tough as hell, I can't even imagine actual communications. ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 17:55, 16 November 2015 (UTC)
• This is not at all sounding like valid information. It sounds more like conjecture fuelled by something like a personal opinion on the console in question, or just ignorance of how consoles and their networking functions work. I would not include it. --ProtoDrake (talk) 18:26, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

http://kotaku.com/reporting-error-leads-to-speculation-that-terrorists-us-1742791584 - Looks like our stance on Forbes contributors as an unreliable source is well-founded. Sergecross73 msg me 21:28, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

At least Tassi admitted that he did misread the statement and corrected it, but this even stronger says there's no need to repeat this info on WP right now. --MASEM (t) 21:32, 16 November 2015 (UTC)

GameRankings discussion

I think we need to talk about the use of GameRankings. With current talks about use of Aggregation websites here this one seems to be the most expendable. At least, in my opinion. OpenCritic has been the new up-and-coming site that might become more popular than industry standard Metacritic. That's speculation right now as we don't know what's going to happen in the future. Metacritic is also one of two aggregation websites we consider reliable and use at this time. The other being GameRankings. Why do we still use GameRankings? It's older than Metacritic, as well as both sites being owned by CBS Interactive, but you don't hear critics or publishers talk about its importance. So I'm wondering if there should be a cutoff of using GameRankings on Wikipedia. Just stop using it past a certain date. Any other suggestions are welcome of course. GamerPro64 19:05, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Might want to set this up more like an RFC or something - this may not be as clear cut as you think, as the consensus the last time we discussed this was pretty strongly in favor of keeping it. Sergecross73 msg me 19:18, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

In the 18 months since the last discussion, GameRankings has continued to be an irrelevance in the games industry, its presence on Wikipedia outweighs by its presence anywhere else. It should not be used for modern games. A lot of articles probably include it just out of habit, it might be difficult to do anything about it unless someone decides to go all Giraffedata on it. We could update Template:Video game reviews/doc to recommend the use of only one aggregator. - hahnchen 20:41, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

"GameRankings has continued to be an irrelevance in the games industry", maybe by your opinion or the people you have around you but just a simple look at Alexa shows it's far and above more popular than a site like OpenCritic. I'm not taking a stand on the use of aggregators (although I'm somewhat against linking to them), but they are pooling scores from published sources. They don't change the scores. You not liking them doesn't make the scores they recorded any less valid. If we're going to link to aggregators, I don't see why they are any more or less relevant than MetaCritic, OpenCritic or Rotten Tomatoes for that matter. And I absolutely am against the idea of picking a favorite. BcRIPster (talk) 21:58, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm still of the opinion that trying to enforce not using it will require more effort than its worth to remove something that has nothing actually wrong with it. Sergecross73 msg me 22:05, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Iff we were to decide to omit GR from the table, I would consider it a deprecated step, grandfathering in all existing uses and recommending it not be used for others. But I would also insist that we should GR as an external link because it serves the purpose of being a launching board for other review sources for the reader, in addition to those by MC (and possibly OC). --MASEM (t) 22:11, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

This is not done on articles on any other form of media, it shouldn't be done for games. Our reception section should already give a good overview of the critical landscape, and its references should be sufficient. We don't link to exhaustive lists of news or previews. Generally, for video games, I link to the official website(s) and to Mobygames, which itself has further links to reviews already. - hahnchen 22:59, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Spot-checking a number of film articles, many include 3 or more links to aggregation sites (not just reviews, but things like RT, MC, Box Office Mojo, IMDB, AllTheNumbers, etc.) I see the aggregates that aren't used in the review table in the same way, alongside a link to MobyGames. --MASEM (t) 15:33, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Mobygames is the IMDB equivalent. The Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes links are already in the references, we don't usually repeat these in the external links in games articles. We have removed links to GameFAQs, Gamespy, Gamespot, IGN, StrategyWiki and many others. I do not support the addition of aggregators to WP:VG/EL. - hahnchen 13:10, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

I feel the same way about rounding GameRankings' scores… —zziccardi (talk) 05:48, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Given that we have nearly 12000 links to GameRankings on the English Wikipedia alone, I think we should remember that their Alexa rank may be largely determined by our use of them. Sam Walton (talk) 22:18, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

That's a good point. There might be a possibility of removing a large amount from here might cause a plummet in ranking. Now that's an article I would like to see, "Gaming Aggregator's traffic plummets thanks to Wikipedia". GamerPro64 23:58, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

That's a Wikipedia article I would love to see: Wikipedia's impact on gaming aggregators. ;p ~Mable (chat) 11:06, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

The indents are getting a little crazy at the top, so I'll put my response down here: For the record, when I say "not worth the effort to enforce", I'm talking about all the repetitive discussions/arguments that are going to break out over and over again.

• Newbie: Hey, Serge, why did you remove Game Rankings?
• Serge: Consensus is to not use GR on Wikipedia.
• Newbie: How come?
• Serge: Its not as prevalent as MC the industry.
• Newbie: But I like GR/don't like MC. Here's some reasons why. What's wrong with using GR?
• Serge: Well, there's nothing wrong, its just redundant.
• Newbie: But what's the harm? And its on Sonic 2. And Super Mario 3D World, and etc etc etc.
• Serge: Well, we set a cut off point.
• Newbie: Why that point? What changed, and when? I want to open up a big RFC at WP:VG and get everyone all worked up over it.
• (excessive arguments ensue)

Repeat Ad nauseam. Which is why I think its all more trouble than its worth. I fine with having this discussion over and over again about something like using VGChartz as a source, where there are issues that clash directly with WP:RS, and always a pretty strong consensus against it, but not this sort of thing. Sergecross73 msg me 16:10, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I think "it is too much work to keep arguing about it with newbies" isn't really a valid argument. Shouldn't we think about what is best for Wikipedia, rather than what is easiest for us? Either way, if we do stop using GameRankings, all you need to do is link to this conversation whenever someone brings it up. There is no use in talking about it on specific article talk pages. ~Mable (chat) 16:16, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

But that's the foundation of my argument - there isn't any any detriment to using it. There is detriment to wasted time and effort better spent on other things though. Sergecross73 msg me 17:15, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

I don't think newbies are really the ones to bloat review tables with Gameranking scores, it's generally regulars who follow a pattern. We can refer those editors back here, and make the instructions clearer at Template:Video_game_reviews to establish that those patterns have changed. It's more important to establish a precendent rather than to look at policing. - hahnchen 13:10, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Regardless of whether we should, we could remove the GR field from Template:Video game reviews such that the tables no longer contain the GR figure; this would likely discourage its use with minimal effort, while removing it from one of the prominent places it is frequently located. Sam Walton (talk) 13:20, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

I'm guilty of adding it, even when I don't like it, for this reason. The template supports it, and as long as it does, that's viewed by many as implicit approval to use GR, if not an outright mandatory requirement. In places where I only add MC, I often find that an IP editor adds GR within a day or two. -- ferret (talk) 13:27, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

In my experience, its either drive-by IPs that are making the changes, or the type of editor that is somewhere between "newbie" and "editor who regularly edits at WP:VG. There's a lot of them - the type that are huge fans of video games, but edit WP infrequently and don't really have a vested interest in following things, they really just want to add their 2 cents and be on their way. These are the types that these arguments are going to arise with over and over again. Sergecross73 msg me 13:47, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Animanga infoboxes for video games?

Are we supposed to use animanga infoboxes for articles on games that have gotten a manga adaption? Or ones that haven't yet, but might at some point? I'm not a fan, but I don't want to replace them with video game infoboxes without discussion. These infoboxes very easily get way too long in proportion to the importance of the manga/anime - Danganronpa 2: Goodbye Despair only has a three-line section about manga, while the infobox is just huge.--IDV^talk 08:13, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

I would argue no, we should stick to the video game infobox. The intermix of manga/anime is common to make sense for those works, but for video games, it is much more rare for the game to generate a manga work or anime (it happens, ala Persona 3 for one), but since the video game came first, and the manga/anime a spin off, we should treat it like that. --MASEM (t) 15:32, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

@IDV: I agree with Masem on this point. On a side-note, I seem to remember articles somewhere that had separate boxes for anime and manga within a video game article that had received such adaptations, but I don't feel that this is a good thing to do. --ProtoDrake (talk) 16:50, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

• I'm fine with Animanga infoboxes for visual novels TBH ☺ · Salvidrim! · ✉ 17:43, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

I too agree that the animanga infobox is fine for visual novels. They are very closely related to manga, perhaps even moreso than to (for example) platform games. However, I have to agree that listing five non-notable manga publications with detailed information in the infobox like done in Danganronpa 2: Goodbye Despair is not appropriate. Though it's fine to list manga releases in an infobox, I don't think it is useful for anyone to create an infobox this long for it. Personally, I find it very difficult to navigate large infoboxes. Japanese franchises that span anime, manga and visual novels tend to grow quite big, so I feel that we should figure out a solution for non-notable releases. ~Mable (chat) 17:56, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Describing games with ongoing major feature updates (not DLC)

This specifically is for Rock Band 4 which was developed to be an expandable platform so Harmonix has promised that they will roll out significant new features (atop bug fixes) in patches over time. This is not the same as, say, DLC which is new content, but here, significant additions to existing gameplay. We don't have a good feel yet how frequent or significant these will be right now but there's a major one coming in a few weeks. To give an example, it will add asynchronous online challenge modes, which the original game did not have beyond leaderboards.

I am trying to figure out if it is best to add these as Gameplay elements, Development elements, or perhaps a section under Gameplay or Development. Or perhaps another solution. Any suggestions will help. --MASEM (t) 18:43, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Could someone give an existing example of this? Should this be compared to something like Splatoon or World of Warcraft or what? I don't really know what the plans are for Rock Band 4. ~Mable (chat) 19:13, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

At least comparing to WoW, when they release expansions, at least those are more on new content rather than new gameplay, though they may refine gameplay or add some elements. But they also feel at this point more discrete compared to what HMX might be proposing here (I only have 2 data points, but this is basically so far a 2 month cycle, one month being a minor patch, and second month being the new gameplay). With WoW, you'd likely just add sections to describe the additions of one new expansion. And with Splatoon, I'm not seeing that being a long-tail of new content, as HMX has promised with the gameplay on RB4. --MASEM (t) 19:43, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

Our articles in general do not capture "updates" well (might be the format we use for video game articles) and so I've also been thinking to raise this question also.

Suggestion/opinion follows: I think, at the minimum, any gameplay changes which cause gameplay sections to be "old" should cause the offending paragraphs in the Gameplay section to be removed and subsequently replaced by the new gameplay description. In addition, a brief description of the old gameplay and the change implemented should be in the Development section. This of course doesn't apply to DLC updates significant enough for their own article, or expansions which cause gameplay changes (though perhaps the Legacy section for the prequels/base games should note briefly the majorest-of-major gameplay changes made in the expansions), though it would probably be appropriate to make "new" DLC follow this format since that more closely integrates the DLC with how one would expect to play the game. --Izno (talk) 19:18, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

What I did for now is put a short section in gameplay, first outlining their expansion plans overall, and then a short para on the known updates in this first major patch; this is arguably close to what happens in other expanded games. This I'm only considering a placeholder until I have more data points to work with. As a note, I'm not sure if HMX plans to actually remove any features. (In contrast, a game like Awesomenauts has had major gameplay revisions from its start so we should present its current version, and only note in development past changes). --MASEM (t) 00:20, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Naming conventions for esports/ pro video gaming people

In the world of eSports, its competitors seem to go by a wide variety of names. WikiProject Video Games is attempting to either standardize or come up with rules on how their article's should be named.

Some examples, to help demonstrate the variants possible. Sergecross73 msg me 19:09, 20 November 2015 (UTC)

Naming

Legal name

Chris Loranger

Name used when competing

"HuK"

Current Article title

Chris "HuK" Loranger

Possible options include

1. Chris Loranger (legal name)
2. HuK (stage name)
3. Huk (stage name, MOS:CAPS applied)
4. Chris "Huk" Loranger (hybrid name)
5. Feel free to propose something else.

Discussion

Disambiguation

Additionally, its been debated which disambiguation should be used when necessary.

Possible options include

1. Name (gamer) - current term for one who plays video games - see Gamer
2. Name (video game player) - some feel this is more formal/appropriate than "gamer"
3. Name ("name of video game played") - more in line with how its handled in sports - John Smith (basketball)
4. Name ("name of video game played" player) - more in line with how its handled in other areas, like poker players - Bill Smith (poker player))
5. Name (esports) - the term for competitive video gaming in general
6. Proposing a new option

Discussion