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June 10

Usage of i.e. and e.g.

I am editing a dissertation. What is the proper usage of i.e. and e.g. in American usage? Should each be underlined and followed by a comma?67.150.126.143 (talk) 01:35, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Followed by a comma—yes. Underscored (or italicized)—no. These are the guidelines of both the MLA Style Manual and the Chicago Manual of Style, which I believe are the guidelines applicable to most dissertations in the United States (though I'm not sure of usage in the sciences). Deor (talk) 01:43, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Personally I wouldn't use those abbreviations in an academic dissertation in the first place. They are for informal writing. For "i.e." use "in other words" or "that is to say". For "e.g." use "for example" or "for instance". --Richardrj ^{talk email} 07:54, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I would never consider "i.e." and "e.g." "for informal writing", and my dissertation is full of them. An early stage of WP:MOS proscribed their usage at Wikipedia because they were considered too academic for use in a general encyclopedia. +Angr 09:53, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The Oxford Dictionary of American Usage (2000)[1] says of e.g. "it is preferably followed by a comma (or, depending on the construction, a colon) and unitalicized". So no underlining. (And I'd be very interested to see any references claiming they are too informal for academic writing; that seems very unlikely to me.) --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 16:16, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

In my experience, the only difference between the usage of "i.e." and "e.g." in formal versus informal writing is that, in informal writing, the two often seem to be used interchangeably. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 08:58, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Word for Candle

What's the word for a candle or torch mounted on a wall?
There was a word for it, or for its holder.
Example (to clarify what I'm trying to describe): The Gothic heroine removed a candle from its holder on the wall and carried it down the ancient stone passageway, determined to explore the castle's forbidden wing. 71.174.23.126 (talk) 04:43, 10 June 2009 (UTC)MissMorland

Sconce? ÷seresin 04:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I think that's it! Thank you. 71.174.23.126 (talk) 05:02, 10 June 2009 (UTC)MissMorland

Girandole is another possibility. Deor (talk) 11:46, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Plural of media

If you have many sorts of media (like photography, graphics, etc), how do you express the plural? Medias?--80.58.205.37 (talk) 11:47, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd say "types of media". Etymologically, of course, media is the plural of medium, but even when it's reinterpreted as a singular, I'd say it's still a mass noun, not a count noun. +Angr 11:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I disagree. I can't think of a single example where media would be considered singular. After all, we do talk of "the medium of television" as opposed to "the media of television", which would be a clumsy way to say "the various news programs on telly". It is plural, simple as that. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 12:20, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Have you never heard anyone say "the media is..."? Adam Bishop (talk) 13:02, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I have heard things you educated people wouldn't believe... ;-) pma (talk) 13:56, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Only in the context of "the media" as a collective term for journalists, reporters, etc. (or in the context of the person speaking just being wrong - that happens too!). --Tango (talk) 19:53, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

For media and for cats, I recommend rearranging the nouns: media of many sorts/kinds/types and cats of many sorts/kinds/types.

-- Wavelength (talk) 14:48, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Why is that better than "many sorts/kinds/types of media" and "many sorts/kinds/types of cats"? +Angr 15:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

The expressions which I recommended are better because they parallel the expression media of this sort/kind/type and the expression cats of this sort/kind/type, which correspond to awkward expressions in the other sort/kind/type of arrangement.

-- Wavelength (talk) 16:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

I guess because it is definitely different, as "particular" is different from "general". In my garden cats of many varieties are leaving odor signals everywhere; this habit is present in many varieties of cats. I agree with Wavelenght: using indiscriminately the species instead of the individual, makes the speech heavier, if not wrong; if one does it, he should be conscious that he is doing a synecdoche, and hopefully, have a reason to do it. --pma (talk) 16:28, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

In the particular case of kind, I was taught to eschew sentences phrases like kinds of cats and use the formal kinds of cat instead. Pallida  Mors 16:38, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

"many media" or "many different media" would be alternative phrasings making it clear that the word is being used in its plural sense.--Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 16:19, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The word medium has several meanings; with some, the plural is media, and, with others, the plural is mediums. In each case, there can be types and subtypes and sub-subtypes. If you are going to say "many types of medium", then you need to be sure that the meaning of medium is clear, and that the level of categorization is clear. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

And then there is Eric Nicol's book whose title caused every editor in the publishing firm at the time to do a doubletake and then to concede the use: One Man's Media and How to Write for Them (Holt, Rinehart and Winston) ISBN 0-03-929991-0. // BL \\ (talk) 21:15, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Of course, "one" in that title modifies "man", not "media", which is being used as a plural. --Anonymous, 05:05 UTC, June 12, 2009.

See wikt:en:manifold#Adjective. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Plural2singular

Is there a process of formation of words (in Latin and in Greek) from a (concrete) neutral plural, (especially a substantivized adjective) to an (abstract) feminine singular noun? I think there are some examples, but I wonder if it is recognized as a general linguistic fact. --pma (talk) 14:00, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

In Latin, the neuter plural of participles often becomes a singular feminine noun; anything ending in -antia or -entia, basically. The one that immediately sprang to mind was "concordantia"; this search of Lewis and Short has tons more. This can also be done with gerunds, at least in English borrowings; "agenda" or "memoranda" are singular, from Latin plurals. One possible Latin example is "legenda", as in "legenda aurea", the Golden Legend, but I'm not sure if that was intended to be a plural. Adam Bishop (talk) 16:05, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 March 30#What modifiers modify for some English derivatives.

-- Wavelength (talk) 17:26, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

memoranda is singular?? —Tamfang (talk) 04:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Sure, like "media" :) Adam Bishop (talk) 07:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I almost came to physical blows with a former work colleague who insisted on changing all my uses of "criterion" (singular) to "criteria" (also, in her little world, singular). We argued for weeks about it. Her position was that people regularly use criteria to refer to a single condition (and, sadly, they do), so the organisation shouldn't be appearing to use toffee-nosed language if it wanted to relate to people. When I asked her "OK, what if there are more than one we're talking about? What's the plural of criteria?" She said "It's criterias, obviously". No amount of argument from me could budge her, but thankfully our legal people finally sided with me when they saw "criterias", and resolved the matter satisfactorily. She had to cop it sweet but she was still convinced she was right. -- JackofOz (talk) 12:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

To celebrate my victory, I should have gone to see two operas.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 23:17, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I can sympathize. Although no one where I work would be so gauche as to use criteria as a singular, I have been asked to stop using plural agreement with data (e.g. "these data are..."). But I either ignore that request or use a different word, such as information, if possible. I'd probably break out in hives if I had to use a construction like "this data is...". +Angr 23:25, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

In my idiolect 'data' takes singular concord, but it isn't singular: it's a mass noun. This is a quite different case from 'criterion', which is singular and has a plural 'criteria' (again, in my idiolect. I try never to impose such choices on others). --ColinFine (talk) 23:47, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

A coworker once reported overhearing, "I love Beethoven, especially his opuses." —Tamfang (talk) 19:20, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

Need an English word

Looking for a word that means it was made from a couple of other words. Just wrote an article on Jayco and the name comes from the founder's middle name, Jay. It therefore is from "Jay" and "compnay" to equal Jayco. What more sophisticated word would have this meaning of combining two words together to get another word? Thanks. --Doug Coldwell ^talk 17:44, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Portmanteau? --LarryMac | Talk 17:50, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Blend.—msh210℠ 18:12, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

...unless you mean concatenation?—msh210℠ 18:15, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Compound. Mikenorton (talk) 19:24, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks for ideas.--Doug Coldwell ^talk 23:04, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

Latin Word For 'Volcano'

According to Pompeii: The Last Day, on Discovery Channel, there is no word for volcano in Latin. I thought the Latin word for volcano was, well, volcano. Can anyone verify this? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 23:07, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

No, "volcano" is the Italian descendant of "Vulcanus", the god Vulcan, who I suppose may have been used as the name for any volcano. Volcanoes had names of course - Vesuviua, Aetna - but "mons ignis" or "mons igneus" might work too. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:37, 10 June 2009 (UTC)

For what it's worth, the Latin Wikipedia uses mons ignifer. (Of course, a contemporary effort I guess). Pallida  Mors 04:18, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The only native Latin words which end in "-o" in the nominative singular are actually N-stems, so I can tell without even looking at the dictionary that if "volcano" were a Latin word, then the genitive singular would be volcaninis or volcanonis (which doesn't seem all that plausible).... AnonMoos (talk) 01:28, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Here is the Penguin translation of Pliny the Younger's account of the eruption of Vesuvius. His uncle Pliny the Elder was killed by it (he was such an awesome scientist that he walked right up to it while it was erupting). I'll have to find the Latin, but the translation doesn't ever use the word "volcano". How many volcanoes would they have ever seen, anyway? Were there any other active ones, besides Vesuvius and Etna, in Europe at the time? They probably just didn't have a word for something that was otherwise a normal mountain. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:07, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The 19th-century Smith & Hall Copious and Critical English-Latin Dictionary suggests first mons vulcanius but conceded there is no classical authority for that term. Otherwise you have to make do with explanations like mons eructans flammas/vaporem/fumum, mons arenas flammarum globo eructans, or mons evomens ignes. It seems to the Romans, some mountains erupted in fire and others didn't, but there was no special word for the ones that did. +Angr 05:43, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Stromboli was very active too, and well known - some say Homer alluded to it in the Odyssey. I guess that what Romans did know about volcans, as usual, was a legacy of the more advanced Hellenistic science; and we do not exactly know what they knew. --pma (talk) 21:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Oh yeah...so then, what is "volcano" in ancient Greek? Adam Bishop (talk) 22:06, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmm, maybe they didn't have one either. The only word I can find in Liddell & Scott that has the word "volcano" in its definition is φῦσα, which however means "crater of a volcano" rather than the volcano as a whole. +Angr 23:36, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The English article en:Volcano has an interlanguage link to the modern Greek article el:Ηφαίστειο

and the English article en:Hephaestus has an interlanguage link to the modern Greek article el:Ήφαιστος.

Those could be clues to the ancient Greek word for volcano. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:05, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Could be, but aren't. In Ancient Greek, Ἡφαίστειος is an adjective meaning "of or belonging to Hephaestus"; the neuter Ἡφαίστειον (which corresponds to Modern Greek ηφαίστειο) can be used as a noun to mean "temple of Hephaestus", but there's no indication it's ever used to mean "volcano". I suspect that usage is comparatively modern, and may well have started out as a sort of calque of Italian vulcano. +Angr 12:32, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians by language has a link to Category:User grc. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:15, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Our article on volcanology also quotes "αἴτνη" (etna), I don't know from which period, and also recalls the volcanic islands of Thera. As to the Hellenistic knowledge on the topic, for instance a big shot like Poseidonios did write on earthquakes and volcanoes; as usual the problem is that what has come to us is a very poor fraction of the whole scientific production :-( --pma (talk) 08:30, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

June 11

GRE ASAP

Could you let me know what is GRE ASAP means? GRE means graduate recorded exam. what is ASAP? Thank you124.43.51.119 (talk) 10:53, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Well it normally stands for As Soon As Possible. What's the context? --TammyMoet (talk) 10:57, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

References to the idea that language and the physical world are one and the same?

Are there any cultures with the above tradition, or philosophers who have expounded it? I'm hoping for references that aren't too modern - the mid 20th Century or before, if possible - but I'll be grateful for any ideas.

Thanks Adambrowne666 (talk) 11:28, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

"In the beginning was the word..." -- Q Chris (talk) 11:47, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Some interpretations of the Kabbalah perhaps.Rhinoracer (talk) 14:08, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Hurufism? AnonMoos (talk) 14:18, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Have you read about Logos? --Omidinist (talk) 14:29, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Nice stuff, thanks all - so tempting to interpret these things as a precursor to the modern idea that information is physical. Adambrowne666 (talk) 21:33, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Allow vs. permit

I just made a minor edit here. I was re-reading the Medical Advice Guidelines for the first time in eons, and came across the sentence:

• ... it is not allowed to answer this question with ...

I instantly knew it was not grammatical, so I changed "allowed" to "permitted". Then I wondered just exactly what was wrong with the original version, and I'm slightly stumped for an answer. In many contexts, "allow" is a synonym for "permit", and that's clearly where the writer was coming from. This appearance was in a passive construction, the active version of which might go

• ... <we> do not allow/permit you to answer this question with....

It's clear that either verb could be used in the active version. But after converting it to passive, only "permit" is available. This issue could also apply to "let" - ok in active, but not in passive. Why is this? -- JackofOz (talk) 13:13, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

On reflection, it's not just a question of active vs. passive. We do say "This practice is not allowed/permitted". But we can't say "It is not allowed to <something>", whereas we can say "It is not permitted to <something>". -- JackofOz (talk) 13:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

And we can say "You are not allowed to <something>", but not "It is not allowed to <something>", unless the "it" refers to a dog that's not allowed to come inside the house, for example. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:26, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

But if you restructure it slightly to

* … answering this question with … is not allowed/permitted …

then both words become equally valid again, odd. Perhaps it's just one of those nuances of word use where a native speaker immediately knows exactly the right one to use, but can't explain why. Mikenorton (talk) 13:34, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

The expression it is not allowed to (with it as a dummy pronoun) sounds acceptable to me, although it can be ambiguous, and Google reported 2,600,000 pages that use it. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:39, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Some of those pages use the expression with it as a personal pronoun. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:47, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Interesting. I can't say I've ever heard it down here. I've never come across it in the millions of pages I've text edited in various contexts. It really does sound quite unnatural to my ears, but English is so diverse, no one person could hope to be across all the variants. I'd still be surprised if "let" could be used in place of "allowed/permitted" in the original sentence, in any dialect. -- JackofOz (talk) 15:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Google reported 536 pages where it is used in the TLD ".au". -- Wavelength (talk) 15:24, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Some of those pages use the expression with it as a personal pronoun. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:47, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

You could say "... it is not allowable to answer this question with ..." or "... it is not permissible to answer this question with ..."
or "... it is impermissible to answer this question with ...". -- Wavelength (talk) 18:03, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Not permissible - yes. Not allowable - I still have my doubts. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:00, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I've googled "not allowable", and most hits (not all, admittedly) are about fees, charges, expenses, legal costs, tax deductions, actions proscribed in a piece of legislation, that sort of thing. It seems to be mainly confined to these sorts of technical/legal/judicial contexts. Whereas, "not permissible" has a much wider application, but it can't be used in many of the above examples. For example, we talk of tax deductions being "allowed/not allowed" or "allowable/not allowable", not usually "permitted/not permitted". For me, that captures the nuance I was after. -- JackofOz (talk) 12:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Please to be

Hi all, is it grammatical to say: "Please to be [verb]-ing"? E.g. "please to be enjoying this show" or "please to be remembering the date for the meeting".

In such a situation, I would say "Please enjoy this show" or "Please remember..." But is the first-mentioned construction valid at all? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 13:40, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I would consider it an error in American English. To me, it sounds like an Indian construction, or rather a caricature of Indian speech. -- Coneslayer (talk) 14:01, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Agreed, it's a standard caricature of the English spoken in India. Tempshill (talk) 21:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

One could say "She was pleased to be enjoying the show, given that only that morning her whole world had fallen apart".

But "please to be" - I can't think of any context where it might apply.

This talks about "please to <verb>", and if we can stretch our brains, the verb could be "be", I suppose. Highly contrived, though.

This contains the sentence: Those maneuvers only highlight how desperate he and his crew are to please, to be urban-authentic. But that's not the same thing at all.

Something perhaps a little closer is this: Allow me please to be parochial for a moment, and point out that the new New York senator, Kirsten Gillibrand, is a UCLA School of Law. But one could argue the "please" is parenthetical, and should be swathed in commas. And parochial is not a verb anyway.

This gives us an interesting version: And while this versatile collection was too eager to please to be truly wicked, it was a sexy outing nonetheless.

These are just some of the over 17 million hits I found on a google search. I've checked a few pages, but have found no example of what the OP’s asking about that isn’t either a spelling error or a dialectal variant that is not standard in Brit, US or Aus English. -- JackofOz (talk) 14:29, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Those examples are a mish-mash of rather irrelevant odds and ends (the first with multiple spelling and punctuation errors, the second with "please" being a mere parenthetical interjection, and the third with "to be" connected with the whole phrase "eager to please", not just the single word "please"). AnonMoos (talk) 16:51, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm starting to think this is an in-community joke based, as pointed out above, on caricatures of Indian English. Some context: here: "Unless the fic being discussed involved Civil War canon, please to be taking your CW rant to whatever new comm has replaced scans_daily, where it belongs." --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 00:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

It might be an archaic construction, there is a UK rhyme that says "Please to remember the fifth of November gunpowder treason and plot" [2] -- Q Chris (talk) 07:00, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

That's in the same category as my first link above, where "please to + verb" is reported as being described as archaic, although it's apparently in current use in Jamaica. What the OP's asking about, though, is "please to be + present participle of verb". -- JackofOz (talk) 11:56, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

[Incidentally, archaic language is a topic at Wikipedia:Use modern language. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:05, 12 June 2009 (UTC)]

Two odd phrases (Americanisms?)

These two phrases seem odd to me, and I've only ever seen/heard them coming from Americans. Are they an American thing?

• "I don't got a problem with..." (where got should clearly be have)
• "I could care less about..." (where could should clearly be couldn't; this is quite egregious, since it is the exact opposite of what is meant)

--Richardrj ^{talk email} 13:48, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree that both are fairly common in American speech, but I can't comment on whether they are unique to Americans. I consider both to be errors, and I think most prescriptivists would agree. -- Coneslayer (talk) 13:59, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

They sound quite informal to me, even somewhat uneducated, and I'd never use them myself, but I've heard both constructions from other people often enough that they don't surprise me in the least. What does still catch me by surprise is the reanalysis of got as an infinitive and present-tense form (a preterite-present of sorts) to the extent that the 3rd person singular becomes he gots. Obviously it should be no surprise that someone who can say "I don't got a problem" can also say "He gots a problem", but still the second of those seems even odder to me than the first. +Angr 14:01, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

"Could care less" is a standard shibboleth which has received much discussion (including in Steven Pinker's Language Instinct). AnonMoos (talk) 14:14, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

For the first phrase I hear "I ain't got no problem with that" more often (Southern US)71.236.26.74 (talk) 14:39, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

World Wide Words, which is usually reliable on linguistic matters, says "could care less" "was coined in the US and is found only there".[3] There is a great deal of discussion of the idiom online, as AnonMoos says, so you should be able to find more information on it easily. "I don't got a problem" sounds like a common American usage, but I'm having difficulty googling for it. Peter Trudgill says it's not standard usage in the USA[4] but no information on how common it is. --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 16:27, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

I'd agree with 71 above. Tempshill (talk) 21:08, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

name of this literary device?

when you keep repeating a phrase for emphasis (and sometimes rhythm), example the poem don't go gentle into that good night —Preceding unsigned comment added by 218.186.10.233 (talk) 15:08, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

You might call that Repetition or Repetitio if you want the latin term for it, though its usually just one word or phrase, it could be extended to cover a whole sentence. For more Information see literary device--91.6.60.195 (talk) 15:35, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

In this particular case, I'd call it a refrain, the same device that is used in songs. The article on Do not go gentle into that good night calls it "refrain" too, a formal element of the villanelle. ---Sluzzelin talk 16:22, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

yes, we can., Yes, we can., YES, WE CAN, YES WE CAN. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:09, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Also see Stylistic device in rhetoric. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 17:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

And you may have a look to epistrophe and have a look to anaphora. --pma (talk) 21:29, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Inclusive - have I understood this?

From http://www.zavvi.co.uk/zavvi/terms-and-conditions.info

"11. Price and Payment All prices are inclusive of VAT (where applicable) at the current rates and are correct at the time of entering the information onto the system. We reserve the right, however, to change prices at any time without notice to you. If your delivery address is outside of the United Kingdom and the Island of Jersey you may be subject to import duties and taxes..."

The 'inclusive' in the first sentence means 'includes VAT' ie the price has VAT added. Is this right? Thanks77.86.10.194 (talk) 16:47, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes. --TammyMoet (talk) 17:59, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks. Funny thing is zavvi has informed me that they have not paid VAT on a VAT eligble item I bought,(via email) which is funny because it seems like they are saying that they have breached their own contract, misrepresented it to me, and evaded tax, all in one fell swoop. What a funny old world!77.86.10.194 (talk) 19:09, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

If something is shipped from Jersey to the UK you don't have to pay VAT or duties if the shipment is less than £18.[5][6]. The conditions say that VAT is added if it applies (e.g. if they shipped from within the UK). --Maltelauridsbrigge (talk) 12:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes, the thing I ordered was more than £18, the postal package was marked "import VAT pre-paid" - but no VAT appears on the receipt!77.86.10.194 (talk) 13:40, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Resolved

Euphemisms for "Crying Jay"

I am looking for other euphemisms for the phrase "crying jay" or "crybaby". Also, does anyone know how this phrase originated? --Reticuli88 (talk) 18:04, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

"Crybaby" doesn't appear to be puzzling: babies cry, hence "crybaby". I have never heard the expression "crying jay" unless you meant "crying jag", which is quite different from "crybaby". Other expressions similar to "crybaby", and from the same type of playground use of many decades ago are "woose", "mama's boy", "wimp" and "snot nose". I am sure there are many, many more. // BL \\ (talk) 21:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

One of those words is more commonly spelt wuss, I believe. —Tamfang (talk) 05:50, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

South Africa and naming of nations

Are there any other nations other than South Africa the names of which are also their locations? Cheers, SGGH ^ping! 22:17, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

East Timor, Western Samoa (as was), Northern Ireland, North Korea, South Korea. Gwinva (talk) 22:52, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

(ec) Northern Ireland might qualify if we consider it a "nation". It's sometimes considered a "country", e.g. it competes against the other "countries" (England, Scotland, Wales, etc) of the United Kingdom in various sporting contexts. -- JackofOz (talk) 22:56, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

See article Home Nations... AnonMoos (talk) 02:44, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Central African Republic --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:02, 11 June 2009 (UTC)

Equatorial Guinea, perhaps? We could even add Ecuador in for the same reason. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 01:23, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Western Sahara, if you consider it a nation. Adam Bishop (talk) 02:02, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

See List of country name etymologies. -- Wavelength (talk) 03:28, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Norway! --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 04:15, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Well, actually that's the way to the north (taking the most likely derivation of the name). Mikenorton (talk) 08:33, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Western Australia and South Australia would be similar to South Africa in that the non-directional term is a continent. DOR (HK) (talk) 08:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Zhongguo, obviously!--Rallette (talk) 08:48, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Along those lines, Japan comes from Nippon (日本), or "source of the sun", "land of the rising sun", etc. It could easily be paraphrased as "East Land". Indeterminate (talk) 03:54, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

June 12

Language

I have a very dear friend moving to the Phillippines permanantly. I want to give a farewell party. How would I say hello and goodbye and good luck in their language? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.16.117.4 (talk) 05:32, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

There are over 170 languages of the Philippines, so you need to decide first which of them you want to use. +Angr 05:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

If you don't have a specific reason to choose another one, Tagalog is the most spoken and the most "high-prestige" and widely understood, so it's probably a good bet. According to Wiktionary, "hello" is "kamusta" or "kumusta" and "goodbye" is "paalam." No Tagalog translation is given for good luck; hopefully a speaker will wander by. If not, you could contact a Tagalog-speaking Wikipedia user directly from Category:User_tl. -Elmer Clark (talk) 07:58, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

[7] for 'good luck'. - DSachan (talk) 08:23, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

CofE Churches

Would the correct term for the saint after which a church is named eg. Saint Andrew's Church be patron saint? I'm a native speaker, I just can't think if that's appropriate. I could imagine saying a church was dedicated to someone, but firstly that sounds like that's the only person the worship, and secondly I wouldn't really really know what the noun would be for the Saint in question (dedicatee?). I normally associate patron saints with wider bodies, like towns, for example. - Jarry1250 ^{(t, c)} 13:49, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

In both the Roman Catholic Church and Church of England the correct term is patron saint and this is chosen at the original consecration of the building, when the church is dedicated to the particular saint. Mikenorton (talk) 14:20, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

French hens

Gallus is the Latin word for a chicken. Gallus is also the Latin word for a Gaul. And the French national emblem is a cockerel. Is the similarity of the two words a coincidence? Which meaning came first? 209.251.196.62 (talk) 14:27, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Etymologically it is a coincidence, but it is a deliberate play on words. We even have an article, Gallic rooster. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:13, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

See Turkey (bird)#History and naming. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:45, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

? Adam Bishop (talk) 16:21, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I could easily be wrong, but I thought the Latin word for Gaul was Gallia—the same as the modern Greek word for France. Michael Hardy (talk) 17:12, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

"Gallia" was the name of the country; "Gallus" was an individual belonging to the tribes for which the country was named. By the way, one famous example of homonymy is that in some dialects in south-western France, the descendants of the two Vulgar Latin words gallus and cattus (meaning "rooster" and "cat") came to have exactly the same pronunciation... AnonMoos (talk) 18:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Am I missing something? How can gaul and chat have the same pronunciation? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 20:47, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

That's Parisian French. In Occitan they are "gal" and "gat"...so I suppose they have silent letters at the end, AnonMoos? Adam Bishop (talk) 22:04, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

It's in chapter 22 of Leonard Bloomfield's classic textbook Language, based on the work of Gilliéron (who is currently just a redlink in our article Linguistic map) and Albert Dauzat (who is not even a redlink). The reference is to forms of local dialects, which are probably not found even in regional quasi-standard languages like Occitan... AnonMoos (talk) 22:24, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

French accents in English usage

A while ago I used the word paper-mâché in another post. I must admit I had never before seen it with all the diacritical marks in the right places. The most I had seen up until now was the accent on the é. I have also noticed that people no longer put marks on the word "resume". I'm not looking for "should be" book lore. What I'd like to know is common US usage and acceptability of leaving out those marks. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 17:42, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

There is List of English words with diacritics, but I am not sure how much it conforms to what you are seeking.

-- Wavelength (talk) 19:45, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

In any case, the spelling is actually "papier-mâché". --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 20:45, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The spelling for the French pronunciation is "papier-mâché". I grew up with the term "paper-mâché", with the term "papier-mâché" sounding pretentious and ridiculous. So, the spelling will depend on which term you mean, which will probably depend on which term is most common in your dialect. Which, of course, brings us full circle to the original question. 80.41.126.158 (talk) 21:23, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

See Burt Bacharach - Paper Mache LYRICS [sic]. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

"Native" English words are almost uniformly without diacritic marks. Diacritics, therefore, are found almost exclusively in loanwords from other languages. This means that native English speakers (especially US ones) are largely ignorant about diacritics. (For example, I wouldn't begin to know how to type 'é' or 'â' on my keyboard - I'm only able to insert them here because I can copy & paste from above.) The tendency, then, is to Anglicize/Americanize the "foreign" words by trimming the diacritics while retaining the pronunciation - it's not like English has a consistent spelling/pronunciation scheme that has to be followed. This has happened with words such as rôle and élite. You see these forms, but they're largely viewed as anachronistic. A lay audience probably won't care if the diacritics are missing - for most people, they're not even "diacritics", they're "accent marks". To a lay person who speaks English, 'e' and 'é' are not separate letters, they're the same letter, just with a pronunciation hint on the second. (The hint being: "pretend you're French") It's mostly the "formal" or "academic" people who will bluster that "resume" is incorrect, and the actual word is "résumé". The best bet to see which is in common usage is to look in a trusted dictionary and see if the diacritic-less form is listed. Merriam Webster online puts the main entry at "résumé", but lists "resumé" and "resume" as accepted variants. It, however, only lists "papier–mâché", without any alternatives. (The search box there doesn't seem to be able to handle diacritics, though.) -- 128.104.112.114 (talk) 23:11, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Dictionaries do lag behind common usage for quite some time. Since I was a kid he term ice cream has migrated via ice-cream to icecream, which I find more and more commonly used today. Dictionaries still insist on either two separate words or the hyphenated term. Lots of younger users find that "old fashioned". 71.236.26.74 (talk) 23:40, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Personally, I'd spell it papier-mâché but pronounce it /ˌpeɪpɚ məˈʃeɪ/ (not /papje maʃe/, which would sound affected in English). +Angr 23:14, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

I only ever heard it as papier-mâché when I was at school, and hearing the Anglo-French hybrid 'paper-mâché' makes me feel like I'm scraping my teeth on a cheese grater. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 02:11, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Where at school? (I'm trying to find out if there's a difference in usage e.g. close to the Canadian border, in the north-eastern US, big cities vs, countryside etc.) 71.236.26.74 (talk) 06:39, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, Northern England. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 13:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I agree pretty much with what 128 said, which is why it surprises me that people on Wikipedia are still fighting tooth and nail for accented spellings of cafe, premiere and role. They're almost never spelled with diacritics in real world land these days. -- JackofOz (talk) 09:57, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I've never seen it spelt in an authoritative source as "paper-machier"! It's always "papier-machier" in my experience, even if you read it as "paper masher". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Any source that spells the second part as "machier" is not a source I'd ever consider authoritative. -- JackofOz (talk) 12:05, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Naming conventions (use English)#Modified letters. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:21, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I sometimes fight for façade, though, because I don't like to add unique exceptions to the relations between pronunciation, etymology and spelling. —Tamfang (talk) 06:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

(rant coming...) Doesn't "in real world land these days" pretty much depend on which land you're talking about? I can well imagine that south of England usage of diacritics varies substantially from land- and French-locked Kansas. And since when did the masses know how to spell things properly? There are all sorts of people who don't know when to put their ' in their its and don't know when to use their and when to use there, but Wikipedia still strives to do it properly. If you go to the Manual of Style for any decent publisher, you will find diacritics properly used on the French words used in English which still deserve to have them. I agree that role has been so well subsumed into English that using a diacritic on it is ridiculous, but café is still widely recognised as a foreign word that we use, too. My rule is that if we try to pronounce it as the French do (even if we do usually do it terribly), then it gets the diacritics. By the way, the Windows operating system has this handy thing called the character map, and there you can find keyboard short-cuts for diacritics. I use some so often that I have them memorised, but even if I didn't, it really isn't difficult. In my opinion, it's all really just a matter of education, and education standards becoming diabolical isn't a good enough reason to stop doing something properly. Maedin\^talk 12:47, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Funnily enough, my auto-correct in Word 2007 gives me café but not papier-mâché (leaving me with papier-mache), and it doesn't correct resume to resumé, presumable because we have a word in English that already has that spelling. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 13:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Maedin the character map works well enough if you have the occasional character to type and do the typing yourself. If you pay someone by the hour to do it and use a text with lots of foreign words the price difference can be significant. I worked at one company in Europe that had various keyboards with little stickers on the keys and instructions how to change the language setting attached on a little card. The company claimed they had cut typing times for their international correspondence in half. I personally find the cut and paste method 128 mentioned faster when typing the occasional short German or Swedish texts. (and am still grumbling about those darn special characters all the time) I had expected the British version to retain diacritical marks longer than the US usage, given OR experience with spelling changes in other words. I guess with the widespread use of spellcheckers, Microsoft has become the new spelling authority in the US. (Who am I to argue with my mighty computer software :-) Thanks for your help everyone so far. Any additional comments shedding light on US usage still welcome. 71.236.26.74 (talk) 20:15, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

See http://frwebgate.access.gpo.gov/cgi-bin/getdoc.cgi?dbname=2008_style_manual&docid=f:chapter5.wais, sub§§ 5.3 and 5.4.

-- Wavelength (talk) 01:46, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Liquor

Why do US states and Canadian provinces use the term "liquor license" to refer to alcohol permits? According to every source that I've seen, "liquor" refers only to distilled alcoholic beverages, not to alcoholic beverages in general. --Lazar Taxon (talk) 19:37, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

There is also such a thing as a "beer license" or a "beer and wine license" in many jurisdictions, which allow the licensee to serve beer or wine but not hard liquor. Typically, I think a "liquor license" allows the licensee to sell beer and wine as well as hard liquor, so "liquor license" is the more inclusive term. Marco polo (talk) 20:30, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Alcohol would also more likely be understood to mean something like rubbing alcohol. "Alcoholic beverage license" is probably too much of a mouth full. You also have to consider the fact that the term "liquor license" has been in use for a long time and tastes in language use change. The term beverage was rarely used when I grew up, actually I've only heard it more frequently since about the eighties and started using it myself more frequently from the 90s onward.71.236.26.74 (talk) 21:19, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

In Canada, or at least in Ontario, you can also get beer at the liquor store, but you can't get liquor at the beer store. With a "liquor license" I would actually expect to get only beer, and perhaps something like hard lemonade or coolers. Adam Bishop (talk) 22:00, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

The logic escapes me a bit on that one. If you can get both beer and hard liquor at a liquor store, why would you not expect to be able to sell both hard liquor and beer with a liquor license? 71.236.26.74 (talk) 22:52, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Probably because beer and liquor stores here are government-run, and therefore inherently illogical :) And it's not that you can't sell liquor with a liquor license, I just meant that I associate "liquor license" with "beer". Adam Bishop (talk) 14:02, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Actually, the Beer Store is an Ontario-only copmpany that is owned by the major breweries and licensed by the Alcohol and Gaming Commission of Ontario (AGCO) to sell beer and beer-derived coolers (yuck!). Back to the OP's question as to why the term "Liquor License" is used rather than "Alcohol Permit", I have no idea, although I suspect it's historical in nature. It is codified, as the Ontario Liquor License Act (1990) defines Liquor as "spirits, wine and beer or any combination thereof and includes any alcohol in a form appropriate for human consumption as a beverage, alone or in combination with any other matter" [8]. -- Flyguy649 ^talk 15:05, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Names

I was not sure where to ask this question ... but here seems as good a place as any. I have always been curious as to why the names of Wikipedia articles about people are, for example, "Abraham Lincoln" ... as opposed to "Lincoln, Abraham". Of course, all printed media (e.g., encyclopedias) would list Abraham Lincoln under the "L" section and not the "A" section. And I am curious why Wikipedia, as an encyclopedia, diverges from this convention. Does anyone know? That is, is there any real / actual reason? Thanks. (Joseph A. Spadaro (talk) 22:57, 12 June 2009 (UTC))

The only reason I can think of for the 'surname, forename' convention is to make it easier to find entries which are sorted alphabetically by surname. Since this isn't a concern online, there's no reason for Wikipedia article titles not to obey the usual conventions of English. Algebraist 23:01, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

That sounds like an argument for doing it the way Joseph was suggesting. Did you mean "... there's no reason for Wikipedia article titles not to obey the usual conventions of English"? -- JackofOz (talk) 23:08, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

No, he means there's no reason for Wikipedia articles not to write "Abraham Lincoln" since Wikipedia isn't arranged in such a way that you have to look under either "A" or "L" for the article on Abraham Lincoln. You just type it into the search box. Notice how articles about people are alphabetized by last name in categories, since in categories you do have to browse through an alphabetical list to find what you're looking for, but in article space you don't. Nevertheless, the Russian Wikipedia does use the last-name-first convention for its articles, e.g. ru:Линкольн, Авраам. +Angr 23:11, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

It is rather strange then that Japanese Wikipedia has family name last (eg: ja:エイブラハム・リンカーン = Abraham Lincoln) even though the convention in Japan is for people to put their family name first (but maybe that article is an exception of sorts). Astronaut (talk) 09:33, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Japanese practice seems to be to preserve the native order (even though the Japanese seem to prefer to have their names turned around in English). —Tamfang (talk) 06:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia:Naming conventions (people) says the following.

General Wikipedia Naming Conventions start from easy principles: the name of an article should be "the most common name of a person or thing that does not conflict with the names of other people or things". This boils down to the two central ideas in Wikipedia article naming:

1. The name that is most generally recognisable
2. The name that is unambiguous with the name of other articles

-- Wavelength (talk) 23:38, 12 June 2009 (UTC)

Wikipedia conventions like these are built up over years of discussion between decent, intelligent people who collectively put centuries of brain-work into the discussion. Sometimes the results are silly. Ian Spackman (talk) 12:46, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

But not in this case. Algebraist 12:47, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

June 13

Nothing like good sesh

This movie review refers to a "sophomore sesh jinx". What does that mean? Clarityfiend (talk) 01:34, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

'Sesh' tends to (in British English, at least) refer to a 'session'. Best I can do, not knowing the rituals and secret 'fraternities' and 'sororities' that American teenagers like to get themselves involved in. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 02:08, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

There's a whole article about that meaning of sesh, but it doesn't make sense (or even senshe) here. And the review's not written by a teenager, nor is Variety aimed at that audience. Clarityfiend (talk) 03:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I wasn't implying it was written by a teenager. The word 'sophomore' gave me the idea, and I believe 'sophomore' means somebody in first second year at university. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 12:47, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

No, but it is written for an audience that is used to Variety's own peculiar phrases and writing style ("Sticks nix hick pix" etc). They're still using as recently as this week, where it appears to mean a movie's second full of week of playing on screen. For Local Hero, as Clarityfiend linked to (the quote also appears in our article), however, it seems to mean the director's second movie. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:43, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

@KageTora: For the general concept, see Sophomore slump. I too am bemused by the insertion of sesh in this case, however. Deor (talk) 14:11, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Flaming June

I see that our article Flaming June is about a painting by Frederic Lord Leighton. But is that the source of the journalistic expression? (For people outside the UK, ‘Flaming June’ is a much used headline in the popuar and not-so-popular British press; the articles will either be undisguised excuses to put bikinis on the front page, or moans about inclement weather.) Perhaps they both have a common source. Something tells me it’s Shakespeare—but I can’t pin it down, and I have been half-heartedly trying to for years. Ian Spackman (talk) 13:05, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

There seems to be a lot of evidence that "flaming June" is a stock expression—a Google Books search finds occurrences of it in books on gardening, in poems, in novels, and in other contexts—but it's rather curious that I can't turn up any occurrences that predate Leighton's painting (other than juxapositions like "a flaming June day" in Pudd'nhead Wilson). For what it's worth, the expression is listed in the "Heat" entry in a 1958 edition of Roget's Thesaurus but not in the corresponding entry in the 1911 edition. If Leighton had used a familiar expression as the title of the painting, one would expect to turn up some previous record of it; I'm drawing a blank, though. Deor (talk) 13:58, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Eris Quod Sum

That's the title of a Heroes (TV series) episode. Please translate it from Latin for me, and be my hero. StuRat (talk) 14:01, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

"You will be what I am"—see the explanation in the lead of our article on the episode, Eris Quod Sum. Deor (talk) 14:06, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Wow, we even have an article on each episode now ? Amazing. But how can only 3 words mean all that ? StuRat (talk) 14:09, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Because Latin doesn't (normally) use personal pronouns, and the future tense is built in to the verb. "Eris" = "you will be" and "sum" = "I am". Adam Bishop (talk) 14:10, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

And "quod" = "what" ? StuRat (talk) 14:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Yup, but only as a relative pronoun (so you could also translate it as "that which"). Interrogative "what" is "quid". English is kind of deficient in wh-words, so we use the same ones for relatives and interrogatives. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:29, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Archives/Language/2009 June 3#What to call this grammatical construction.

-- Wavelength (talk) 14:31, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

See Nemo dat quod non habet and Quod licet Iovi, non licet bovi.

-- Wavelength (talk) 14:50, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

By the way, this is the end of the Horace epigram "Eram quod es, eris quod sum" (I was what you are, you will be what I am [i.e. alive, then dead]). Similar phrases found on tombstones are memento mori and et in Arcadia ego. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:16, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

If you think about it, Stu, you'd already know that Latin often uses fewer words than English. I'm sure you'd have heard of "Cogito (I think) ergo (therefore) sum (I am)". -- JackofOz (talk) 22:12, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Does that mean I can swear more efficiently in Latin ? :-) StuRat (talk) 15:06, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Yes! See Catullus 16. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:58, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

LOL. StuRat (talk) 03:16, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I think what you really need is Latin profanity. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:12, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Pronunciation

In an above disacussion about papier mache, I saw someone write "/ˌpeɪpɚ məˈʃeɪ/" to explain how to pronounce it. Where might I find out how to read that? Vimescarrot (talk) 15:13, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

IPA chart for English dialects may be helpful. Other information is linked in the main IPA article. Deor (talk) 15:17, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks, that's all I need to know :) Vimescarrot (talk) 15:41, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

How is a double L pronounced in Spanish ?

I believe it's a pure Y sound, but someone else told me it's an LY sound. The word in question was "tortilla". So, is there any Spanish dialect where the L sound is pronounced to make it "tortilya", instead of how I say it as "tortiya" ? Is there an English dialect where this is done to words borrowed from Spanish ? StuRat (talk) 17:37, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

[ʎ], the LY sound that you friend told you about, is not a native sound of English and most have a difficult time distinguishing it from [j] (a pure Y sound) so I'm pretty sure every English speaker pronounces it as /tɔrˈtiːə/ or /tɔrˈtɪlə/. The standard variety of Castile pronounces tortilla as [t̪orˈt̪iʎa], though other varieties have lost /ʎ/ and merged this phoneme with the consonant spelled with a Y, which itself is not a "pure y" sound because there is often greater articulatory constriction so that it might sound more like [ʒ] or [dʒ] (the sound of garage in American and British pronunciations, respectively). — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[aɪm ˈfɻɛ̃ⁿdˡi]} 18:03, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

see Yeísmo -- Nricardo (talk) 21:10, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Unfortunately, that article seems to be written by and for linguists, as shown by heavy use of IPA and linguistic terminology, and is thus unreadable to the rest of us. StuRat (talk) 15:00, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Okay, the low-tech answer to your question, "how is a doubled L pronounced in Spanish?" is that it depends on the dialect. In some parts of Spain, it's pronounced differently from Y, namely as a sound similar to the "ly" sound heard in the English word "million". So when speakers of those dialects say tortilla it sounds a bit like "tortilya". This pronunciation is considered standard in Spain, but in practice only a minority of people in Spain pronounce it that way - and most of those who do are bilingual, speaking Spanish alongside either Catalan or Basque. The majority of people in Spain, and practically everyone in Spanish-speaking Latin America, pronounce "ll" the same way they pronounce "y". But the pronunciations of "y" also vary according to dialect: it can be like the English "y" in "yellow" (for example, in Northern Mexico, the dialect of Spanish most Americans from the Southwest have most contact with), or it can be a "zh" sound as in "measure" (for example, in Argentina and Uruguay), or it can be a sound halfway between them, more emphatic than the English "y" sound but not as noisy as the "zh" sound. So speakers of these dialects may pronounce tortilla sort of like "tortiya", "tortizha", or "tortiyya". +Angr 15:23, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

See (and hear) http://forvo.com/search/tortilla/. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:17, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Thanks all. StuRat (talk) 03:17, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

What is this language/alphabet?

Hello,

I found this on Dave Sieg's Scanimate DVD (see this website); it seems to be from some kind of commercial from the early 80s, but I have no idea what country, language or alphabet this is. It looks like it's derived from some kind of Latin/IPA alphabet, but I am totally clueless as to what country uses/used it.

Can anybody with a greater knowledge of language than myself figure this out? It looks like it says something about wafers, but I don't even recognize some of the symbols here. Here's the image.

Thanks for any help anybody can give.--99.167.195.150 (talk) 19:08, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

See List of writing systems. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:19, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

It's ThaiAas217 (talk) 19:23, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

That's what I thought at first, but those look like Latin/IPA-style symbols. The actual Thai alphabet, as seen on Wikipedia, doesn't look like that. Unless it's Thai in a typeface made to look like Latin/IPA symbols, which I can actually buy if I think about it...--99.167.195.150 (talk) 19:49, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

I would never have been able to identify that as Thai, but if it is, it's definitely using a typeface designed to resemble a sans-serif Latin face like Helvetica (the face that the "180" is printed in). +Angr 20:19, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

For a translation, see Category:User th. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:21, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Funny, I can't see a translation of it on that page. --ColinFine (talk) 23:59, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

It's a list of users that speak Thai. Ask one. Xenon54 (talk) 00:11, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

It's a pity that most references for foreign scripts show only a single formal style; it can be hard to guess what's essential and what's equivalent to a serif. I have one book (Writing Systems of the World by Akira Nakanishi) which ameliorates the problem by showing, for each major script, the front page of a newspaper; this typically contains at least three styles. —Tamfang (talk) 06:50, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

see this link for a description of the font (Manoptica), which was developed in the '60's and designed to emulate Helvetica http://www.thailandqa.com/forum/showthread.php?t=728

Aas217 (talk) 01:40, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

The entire page looks completely English to me (including the two embedded YouTube videos), or have I suddenly become so fluent in Thai that I can't distinguish it from my own native language? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 07:47, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I suspect you've clicked the "see this website" link and not the "Here's the image" link. - Nunh-huh 08:23, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Ah, yes, I thought the OP's second paragraph was a post from someone else. Yes, it is Thai. Anyway. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 09:26, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Response to sneezing in English

Our article says that 'Bless you' is commonly used, but in some places 'Gesundheit' is also used. Can somebody tell me the source for it, or the places where this practice is in common of saying 'Gesundheit' as a response to sneeze. This has to be in a English speaking country or community. Thanks - DSachan (talk) 22:33, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

See Gesundheit --pma (talk) 22:52, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

(ce) "Gesundheit," I think, would be recognized as a response to sneezing in most areas of the United States. It certainly was the standard response in my family; but the family was of German descent in an area (St. Louis, Missouri) with a large German-American population. Deor (talk) 22:55, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

Perhaps Sneezes Around The World will help? Personally, since my family is of German descent, we use "Gesundheit", but where I live (northern Virginia), "bless you" is almost universal. Xenon54 (talk) 23:13, 13 June 2009 (UTC)

To the best of my knowledge, there is no German background in my family, and yet "gesundheit" is what we all say, and always have. "Bless you" would have been for believers, I suspect. Almost anyone who has grown up in eastern Canada would recognize and accept either. // BL \\ (talk) 01:55, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I've lived in three different US states and have heard it commonly in all three as well as said it in all three and not received any funny looks. And yes, if it matters, I'm part German but only a little. Dismas|^(talk) 02:10, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

In the southern UK "Bless you" is very widely used, only occasionally will you hear Gesundheit. Whenever I hear 'Gesundheit' I always think of [[9]]. Richard Avery (talk) 07:25, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

June 14

Etymology of the word Islam

Hi does anyone have proper reference on the etymology of the word Islam? The word Islam is a homograph having multiple meanings such as Peace, Submission, Serenity etc.. But I am not able to find any scholarly reference on this. Can someone help me with this. NëŧΜǒńğer^{Peace Talks} 13:18, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

How about the Encyclopedia of Islam? Unfortunately you need to be able to login to www.brillonline.nl to read it. Hopefully your local library will have it...if you live near a university library, I'm sure it will be there. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:56, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Islam إسلام is derived from the same abstract triconsonantal root as the Arabic word for "peace" (salam سلام), but Islam simply does not mean "peace" in any ordinary or direct way (other than by means of remote etymological connections -- and if we count those, then the English word nice would actually mean "ignorant", etc. etc.).

Within the system of consonantal roots, Arabic morphology (like that of other Semitic languages) also has the concept of verb stems (see Arabic_grammar#Stem_formation). It turns out that if you look at Arabic dictionaries, then Stem I, Stem III, and Stem VI derivatives of the root S-L-M س ل م have meanings such as "to be whole", "to be peaceful", "to make one's peace with" etc., while the Stem II, Stem IV, Stem V, Stem VIII, and Stem X derivatives of the root S-L-M س ل م have meanings such as "to hand over, turn over, deliver, surrender, give up, betray, submit" or "to obtain, receive". Islam is a morphological Stem IV derivative, and the meanings of Stem IV derivatives of this root have no particular connection with the concept of "peace". When the word Islam was chosen to name a religion, this done with reference to its meaning "submission" (i.e. submission to God), as far as can be ascertained. AnonMoos (talk) 17:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Scandinavian names

I was searching for the English/British translation of some Scandinavian given names:
Åke/Aage/Åge, Birger, Björn/Bjørn, Burkhard, Eggert, Einar, Eskil/Eskild, Finn, Fridtjof, Frodi, Gunnar/Gunner, Håkan/Haakon, Hartvig, Helge, Ingolf, Ingemar, Kjell, Leif, Östen/Östen, Sigvard, Sven/Svein/Svend, Torvald, Ulf, Ove. I would appreciate historical-obsolete forms too.
For example, the English equivalent of Erik would be Eric. Or Dustin for Torsten/Torstein, Canute for Knud/Knut. Thank you. --151.51.19.115 (talk) 17:14, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Most of those you have quoted are not known in English except in one of their original forms. Though it would not surprise me to find a reference book somewhere that solemnly listed 'English' equivalents to them, but it would be a work of fiction. It had never occurred to me that 'Dustin' was anything to do with 'Torstein'. --ColinFine (talk) 17:27, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

By translation, do you mean "accepted Anglicization" or "corresponding form derived from the same etymological root" or "hypothetical form reconstructed as derived from the same etymological root"? The first two are only likely to give fragmentary results. The third method was practiced quite a bit by Tolkien in coming up with names for his books, but you would need to have a lot knowledge in various areas of linguistics and history to come up with plausible results... AnonMoos (talk) 17:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Definitely the first two options! :-) --151.51.19.115 (talk) 17:51, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Might I recommend Wiktionary? Check the Scandinavian name's page, for each name, but if it doesn't list the English counterpart try Special:WhatLinksHere to see whether any English-language names' entries list the Scandinavian name in their translation sections.—msh210℠ 23:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Wiktionary has this version of Canute. He probably works at French Connection (clothing). -- JackofOz (talk) 23:15, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Why would he work at fcuk.174.3.103.39 (talk) 03:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I'm extremely loath to explain jokes, so all I'll say is anagram. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:33, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I used to work with a Lewis man called Uisdean, which is the Scottish Gaelic version of Øystein. Mikenorton (talk) 06:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Some names related to those have produced surnames in northern England; Osgill may be from a cognate of Eskild, for example. Sweyn is in historic use. Ulf may of course be translated Wolf. —Tamfang (talk) 07:02, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Bjorn simply means bear (but perhaps bairn could suffice?). Frodi is Frodo, apparently, Eggert is Egbert, Birger = Burgher (but wouldn't be used as a name). Steewi (talk) 00:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)

"You" in Punjabi?

I heard that Punjabi has T-V distinction with tū̃ and tusī̃. How would you write these two words in the standard writing system of Punjabi? Are they among these?

1. ਤੁਸੀ
2. ਤੁਸੀਂ
3. ਤੂੰ
4. ਤੈਂ

--Sonjaaa (talk) 18:45, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

See b:en:Punjabi/Backup. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:13, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't see an answer in there...? --Sonjaaa (talk) 20:04, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

See the pronoun section on the page. The plural you (ਤੁਸੀਂ) is used to indicate respect. See also this book. Abecedare (talk) 20:13, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

At the right-hand side of the page, there is a table of contents. If you click on sub-subsection 7.2.1 ਪੁਰਖਵਾਚਕ ਪੜਨਾਂਵ (Personal pronoun), you can find the "Table of declensions of personal pronouns". In the row "subjective case" and under "second person", you can find the singular form ਤੂੰ and the plural form ਤੁਸੀਂ. I understand that the T-V distinction in languages involves formal and informal usage, which are not made explicit in the Wikibooks page, but it might be assumed that the singular form corresponds to informal usage and the plural form corresponds to formal usage.

-- Wavelength (talk) 20:26, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians by language has a link to Category:User pa. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

June 15

Pam

What are ironpans?

The picture is of a stagnopodzol in upland Wales, and shows the typical sequence of organic topsoil with leached grey-white subsoil with iron-rich horizon below. The example has two weak ironpans.

— http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spodosols

]]174.3.103.39 (talk) 02:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Ferricrete says "ironpan" is a synonym. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:32, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Crudely speaking, an ironpan is a layer of iron-rich soil usually found under layers sand and peat, or similar material formed from a bog: it's created by the downward-moving bog water leaching the minerals out of the soils above and depositing them on a more impermeable layer beneath - see bog iron. Some ironpans were a source of the metal in the Iron Age. I'm sure anyone with some formal knowledge of the geophysical sciences could give a much more detailed and accurate answer. Contributions/87.81.230.195 (talk) 19:53, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

If these answers don't tell you what you wanted to know, you could always ask Pam.  :) -- JackofOz (talk) 21:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians has a link to Category:Wikipedians by profession. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:04, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Modern novels/authors in project Gutemberg/Librivox

What modern novels/authors can be found in project Gutemberg, Librivox and similar sites?--Mr.K. (talk) 12:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

See Project Gutenberg and LibriVox and Category:Book websites. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:06, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Project Gutenberg only publishes book out of copyright so modern authors are less likely to be included, depending of course how you define modern. Contributions/86.4.190.83 (talk) 15:09, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Joan

How is the male Catalan name "Joan" pronounced? Recury (talk) 14:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Catalan orthography, Catalan phonology and Talk:Joan Miró#Pronunciation suggest . — Emil J. 14:26, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Confirmed. I have a Catalan friend called Joan. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 21:24, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Category:Wikipedians by language has a link to Category:User ca. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Alphabetic Order

I tried searching our articles on English alphabet and alphabetic order, but didn't find an answer. Why is the English alphabet in the order it is in? Did it just happen by chance, like everyone got together and said "Hey, let's make A the first letter, why not?" I know some alphabets have letters arranged by how you pronounce them, is this related? Or is there some other reason? --Alinnisawest,^{Dalek Empress} (extermination requests here) 15:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Does Alphabet#Alphabetic order give a better insight? Astronaut (talk) 16:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Does it? Why was the early Semitic alphabet in the order it was in? — Emil J. 16:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

See History of the alphabet#Letter names and sequence of some alphabets. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

See this page in Google Books, referring to Hebrew acrostics in the Bible. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:49, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Short story about a kid who finds out that he's poor

I know this doesn't really fit here, but I think the audience of this group is more likely to know the answer.

Does anyone know what the name / author is of this short story? A kid is at school and his teacher tells the class that they are going to do things to help the poor. The kid feels great about this and is all excited about helping them out. When he gets home his parents seem uninterested. When he goes back to school the next day he has nothing to offer. The teacher is OK with it. I think it is the next night that the kid figures out for himself that his family is one of the poor families he had heard about. Before then he had no idea. It was the only life he had ever known.

I have no idea when the story was written, but I read it about 30 years ago. That's so long ago I may not even have the story 100% correct. --Wonderley (talk) 18:16, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Please don't post the same question on multiple RD's --ColinFine (talk) 23:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

I would normally agree with you Colin, but as I stated at the beginning of this post, this is the audience that would most likely know the answer. Even though it is not a question about language, the group that answers these questions is more likely to know the answer and not even look at a group that has posting asking what secret agents wear. --Wonderley (talk) 02:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)