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October 30

Visual Editor

Hi, what happened to the Visual Editor? I don't see the Edit/Edit Source buttons anymore and I have not changed anything in my preferences. If you have a link to the latest updates or discussions about VE I'd be interested in reading them. Thanks. Odeon guy (talk) 01:59, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Seems like Visual Editor is now something that has to be enabled in preferences. When did this happen? Odeon guy (talk) 02:17, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I don't recall exactly when it happened, but it's been awhile. If you poke around at Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Updates maybe you can find if it was announced. RudolfRed (talk) 02:36, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I suddenly feel like singing "Ding-Dong! The Witch Is Dead". Clarityfiend (talk) 02:40, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

(double edit conflict) Wikipedia:VisualEditor/Feedback and Wikipedia:VisualEditor might assist you if you haven't checked there already, I haven't been keeping up with it personally. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 02:40, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the links. I found where VE became available only by actively turning it on, on 23 September 2013. So the experiment with VE lasted for less than three months: Wikipedia:Village_pump_(technical)/Archive_117#VisualEditor_now_opt-in_only_for_all_users_on_English_Wikipedia.Odeon guy (talk) 02:58, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I had great hopes for Visual Editor, as a wysiwyg editing function, but I saw no way to include references, so it seemed to be merely an aid for vandalism and for including unreferenced statements. Edison (talk) 04:28, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

This article includes some more details about what happened to Visual Editor. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:13, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Lag time difference between passage of state assembly bill and actual signage

I-880 interstate-guide said Interstate 880 were approved by AASHTO in July 1983 and passage of State Assembly Bill 2741 in 1984, completely signed by 1985. Is there any difference between passage of State Assembly Bill and AASHTO approval? I thought AASHTO assigns the interstate number, what does State Assembly Bill Do? Is CSAB in charge of California roads on California system are allowed? For I-980 it cites the same thing designated by the Federal Highway Administration in 1983, added to the California State Highway System in 1984, and opened on March 6, 1985. Because kurumi said the actual signage for these routes are 1986. Does passage of Assembly Bill means the signage are done right away, or it only means the routes are assigned by state of California and there are still lag time until the roads actually goes through actual sign-change? --69.226.33.83 (talk) 05:29, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

The biggest reason the states need to pass things like this is because they are responsible for a large chunk of the funding and maintenance, most signed interstates also have state route numbers assigned to them. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 09:13, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Yes there is a difference between passage by the state assembly and approval by AASHTO. AASHTO is an interstate organization (NOT federal, that is, it is organized by the states themselves outside of the Federal government) which, among other things, approves the numbering of highways. The State Assembly would be the legislature of the state, responsible for passing laws, among which, would including the funding of specific highway construction and maintenance projects. AASHTO approves the number, the State then approves the money to do whatever it takes to get the road built/signs put up, etc. etc. And also, as you were informed before "right away" is impossible to determine. Once it is funded, there needs to be contracts bid on and awarded, signs made, signs put up. It takes some time to do all of that, so it isn't possble for signs to be hung the day after the legislature approves it. --Jayron32 12:34, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Is there a word for people who syn flood IRL

I mean people with no sense for when a conversation is over. For example, as customers, when they need some info, they will overtext the staff long past the point when the person had anything new to say because they obviously already said all they knew and helped all they could. Conversely, if these people, for example, would like to meet, they fix the date like this:
A: Let's go there and there at 10 AM.
B: Sure, why not. [...] 10 AM it is, then? (← note the question mark)
A: (silence)
In other words, the conversation is cut short by sudden silence at the most interesting point and one is left wondering whether the thing is settled yet or not, which is slightly infuriating if one's a person who doesn't multitask easily.

Asmrulz (talk) 08:01, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

In the above example, A's probably saying to himself "I proposed we meet at 10am, and B agreed with me, and now B wants me to agree all over again to the thing that I already proposed and he's already agreed to. This pointlessness could go on forever. Best to stop NOW. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:46, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Yeah, after the then?, A probably hears a blah-blah. That's what we --my mates from school and I-- did in a Math class :) Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 19:16, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Having dabbled a bit in aviation I think in the example above B is being entirely logical - in the jargon it's called a "read-back" and allows B to confirm they heard the correct time, it's an error checking procedure, not pointless! Perhaps a bit over the top for a normal conversation, but not if e.g. the environment is noisy. Silence after a read-back is interpreted as implicit confirmation though, so A wouldn't actually have to reply in this situation (although, in aviation, it is best practice to give a reply if convenient). Equisetum (talk | contributions) 23:29, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Yes, I wonder, as to which type of English the OP speaks in? There is a saying that the “The United States and Great Britain are two countries separated by a common language”. [1]. Thus, it sound like the OP was using a high rising terminal to indicated a question and failing to realize that he was not communicating what he meant. The OP's age and geographical location would help to take this analysis further (as would the estmated age and location of the 'customer').. I think it is likely that the OP was speaking to someone that could only speak and understand Americana.--Aspro (talk) 23:13, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

I’m seeing two different things here… the last example seems just lack of attention

the first one could be more likely a staff fault… see, if the customer is fully satisfied why to bother and keep asking things and yanking the poor staff?

if that is the case (the costumer is fine but keep speaking endlessly), i guess then it could be lack of attention or focus, or maybe… the costumer likes the staff and the only thing that come to his mind is to stay saying her non-senses

all of this have happened to me sometimes, luckily not altogether!

Iskánder Vigoa Pérez (talk) 23:27, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

October 31

Wikipedia List of oldest dogs

Why doesn't Wikipedia have a list of oldest cats? It has a list of oldest dogs. I don't understand why there is no list of the oldest cats. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Deaths in 2013 (talk • contribs) 00:35, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Hello Death....Happy Halloween. (Yeah...that wasn't weird at all) Perhaps this is a great opportunity to create such an article! [2]--Mark Miller (talk) 01:32, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

To second that you may wish to check out WP:BOLD, happy editing! ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 03:59, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

You might also be interested to read Wikipedia:Other stuff exists.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 08:41, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Here is our List of oldest cats. Or maybe not... --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 10:51, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

That cat doesn't count, because he was only half alive. :-) StuRat (talk) 17:54, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

And here is our List of oldest Catholic bishops, though God knows why.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 14:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Well this thread took a turn. LOL!--Mark Miller (talk) 20:13, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

(Getting back on-topic): The article doesn't exist because nobody decided to write it yet. Wikipedia is created entirely by people deciding that the world would benefit from having an article on such-and-such, then going and writing it. There are no obstacles to doing that - but you need to know that there is the possibility of the article getting deleted soon after if it doesn't meet two very important criteria:

1. Notability: Is this article about a sufficiently important subject to be worthy of being a part of the encyclopedia. (In this case, the existence of a similar list of dogs ought to be a reasonable argument for it being worthy).
2. References: Can you find solid proof (eg in books and science journals and such) that the facts in the article are true? If you've found a list of the world's oldest cats somewhere reasonably reputable - then this shouldn't be a problem either.

In this case, I suspect that the reason the article doesn't exist is the second one - there simply may not be a reputable source of this kind of information. SteveBaker (talk) 22:08, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Health insurance deductible increases

Hi, I've heard that some people have lost their insurance because of the new "Obamacare" and "major changes" in their policies since 2010, where an increase in deductible is considered a major change. Is there any scuttlebutt about companies intentionally eliciting customer requests for deductible increases by sudden increases in premiums? The companies have had a long time to think about this and pore thru the fine print. Thanks. Rich Peterson76.218.104.120 (talk) 03:39, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Use of Commons file

Dear Reference desk,

I would like to insert a graphic file from Wikimedia commons, File:Stamp Blue Alexandria.jpg into my article about the Alexandria Blue Boy stamp, which would be much improved by an illustration. I do not, however, know how to determine whether the use of this particular image is legal in the U. S. (it was clearly uploaded from Russia). Please advise me if possible. Many thanks,

BFolkman (talk) 19:38, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

Hi, the best place to ask this question is here. Best!

P.S. But maybe the guys here at the RefDesk can help you. Miss Bono ^{[hello, hello!]} 19:41, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

As Miss Bono has said, this isn't really the best place to ask. But anyway wikimedia commons content should generally be freely licenced or require no licence i.e. in the public domain or uncopyrightable in the US (except possibly for a small number of specific cases like Commons:Template:Not-free-US-FOP, Commons:Category:Works possibly copyrighted in the U.S., Commons:Category:Works copyrighted in the U.S.) and the country of origin if that is different (with a greater number of extant exceptions). We don't generally care about the country of upload although uploaders may want to care.

(We do require anyone uploading their content to freely licence it everywhere. I'm actually not 100% we'd ever accept content which is freely licenced only in some places by third parties as it's arguably not a proper free licence, the different country issue only really comes up for public domain and uncopyrightable content.)

Wikipedia content only has to be under a suitable licence or require no licence in the US, unless it's used under our WP:NFCC policy which allows content under US fair use law in a limited set of cases.

However this isn't intended to be legal advice (note I haven't even checked out what you're linking to yet) and you should bear in mind we can only do our best to ensure our content doesn't violate copyright and as we depend on volunteers, our best varies from content to content.

In other words, while you should usually be able to use any content on common in the US presuming you comply with any licence, you should do some checking of your own if it really matters. The description page should tell you more about the source and under what terms it's available under. E.g. if it's a free licence what licence and who's the person who claims to be licencing it so. Or if it's claimed to not require a licence, why. And particularly should specify in those small number of cases were the copyright status in the US is unclear but it's allowed on commons.

Note also that I'm obviously only talking about copyright restrictions. There may be other restrictions in law.

Nil Einne (talk) 14:39, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

It is a stamp from the 1840s - there is no copyright issue if this is a photograph. Rmhermen (talk) 16:14, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Overemphasis on the DJIA -- what's that about?

We all know that the stock market in the United States is currently way over-correlated — stocks tend to march in lockstep based on macroeconomics, with only small differences based on individual company fundamentals or performance. That's a bad thing, but that's not what I came to talk to you about today.

Why is it that, when news organizations report whether stocks are "up" or "down", they focus so much on the Dow Jones Industrial Average, which is a weighted average of only thirty stocks? They will say that stocks are "mixed" even if the S&P and Nasdaq are up significantly and the Dow is down a fraction; sometimes they'll say stocks are "down" when only the Dow is down, and the S&P and Nasdaq had slight upticks.

I don't see how this is rational at all. Surely the S&P is a better metric of the market as a whole? --Trovatore (talk) 19:50, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

I am sure there are real experts on Wikipedia that can best answer this, however let me at least give my 2 cents on the subject. One clue is the term "Industrial Average". I believe we are talking about "indicators" that show how the economy is doing as a whole along with other such indicators. The Dow Jones Industrial Average is just one of the oldest of these devices which began in 1896. It doesn't really even have just industrial stocks anymore but did start out as exclusively industrial average. In other words, these are the main stocks that help determine how the US economy is doing and will do in the near future.--Mark Miller (talk) 01:10, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Originally, the companies making up the DJIA represented a huge fraction of the industrial activity in the US -- and since the US was an industry-focused country back in 1896, it represented a large part of the economic activity at the time. Since then, the US economy has diversified and monopolies have been broken up (two of the original twelve companies were broken up by antitrust action, as were a number of later additions), but the tradition of using it has remained, and it's still a useful measure because the 30 companies on it are huge companies with a broad range of business activities. --Carnildo (talk) 02:28, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

The traditional answer to this question is that the DJIA is price-weighted whereas the S&P is market-weighted. Why one would prefer price-weighted seems mostly like after-the-fact excuses to me, but some prefer the hand-picking of the DJIA rather than the S&Ps more rote approach. Despite these complaints though, the indexes tend to track eachother similarly (I tried to find their correlation but didn't find anything quickly on it). "Industrial" is of course an anachronism at this point. Shadowjams (talk) 04:29, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

There are a couple of reasons. One is that the DJIA has been continuously calculated for longer than any other stock market index, so it gives a historical record that other indexes can't match. Another is simply that the Dow is the best-known and most familiar index to the general public, so it's easiest for the news media to use. Since the major domestic equity indexes tend to correlate, it usually doesn't matter that much. However, occasionally one of the Dow components moves up or down so sharply that it causes the DJIA to seriously misrepresent the broad market for that day. For real money management, different indexes are used as a measure, most frequently the Standard & Poor's 500. That the DJIA is price-weighted is a bug, not a feature. That made it easier to calculate in the old days, but it makes the weightings off. John M Baker (talk) 15:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

November 1

Share a ride (for goods)

Hi all!

I've checked Google but I couldn't find anything. Is there any website about people asking other people to deliver stuff for them? Like, let's say, I'm going from NYC to LA with a half empty bag and I could carry something for someone else to make extra money.

Thanks a lot for your replies. 92.97.194.122 (talk) 08:31, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

You can supposedly act as a courier on behalf of various companies. There may be ways to make more informal arrangements, but I think most people would be very wary of entrusting goods to a random stranger, and perhaps even more wary of carrying something for someone else. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 10:43, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

What is green and hairy and goes up and down

This discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Please tell me what is green and hairy and goes up and down 2.126.156.229 (talk) 09:00, 1 November 2013 (UTC) The traditional schoolboy answer is a gooseberry in a lift (or elevator). (No doubt other green hairy things exist.)--Shantavira|feed me 09:53, 1 November 2013 (UTC) Perhaps the Phillie Phanatic or Oscar the Grouch?    → Michael J Ⓣ Ⓒ Ⓜ 10:35, 1 November 2013 (UTC) My mom. --Onorem (talk) 10:44, 1 November 2013 (UTC) TMI. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 11:30, 1 November 2013 (UTC) Shrek on a pogo stick. StuRat (talk) 21:18, 1 November 2013 (UTC) Aha, I've got it: The US dollar on the world market. ←Baseball Bugs What's up, Doc? carrots→ 12:23, 2 November 2013 (UTC) Am I the only one that wonders why this is on a Ref Desk? Jus' sayin' Market St.⧏ ⧐ Diamond Way 12:46, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

What is the dog feeling?

We got a dog a few months ago. Initially we were worried he might not get along with the 17-year-old cat, but they seemed to get along pretty well up until a few days ago, when the dog suddenly got angry and thrashed the cat. The cat had no external injuries, but he was clearly in a lot of pain. We set up a vet appointment for today, but he died yesterday.

Today we buried the cat. My dad, being drunk, insisted that the dog watch the burial. He had the dog sniff at the dead cat first, then placed the cat in the hole, and started shoveling dirt in on top of it. With every new shovelful, the dog trembled violently. He kept pulling on his leash in the direction of the grave.

I remember a experiment on dogs. People think that their dogs are expressing guilt when they hunch down with their tails between their legs, and look up at their owners, but the experiment showed that the dogs were just demonstrating that they were submissive -- they would assume this position whether they had done something wrong or not.

So we have trouble interpreting canine emotions at times. My dog looked like he was experiencing guilt for killing the cat, or maybe grief for the loss of a friend. But what was he really experiencing? Was he aware that the cat was dead? Did he think were were burying the cat alive? Was he upset that we were burying potential food? Or was it really grief?

67.142.167.27 (talk) 20:31, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Dogs are capable of displaying "grief" in the context of a sense of loss. But trying to make the dog feel guilty will not likely work. Jackson Galaxy, a cat psychologist, has said that trying to punish cats for something they just did, is useless. Cats (and I would think dogs also) don't understand that they're being "taught a lesson" - you can't explain that to them like you can with a child. Animals live in the moment. They just understand that they're being made very uncomfortable by their owner's behavior. It would be worthwhile to take that dog to a vet (which is what Jackson Galaxy would recommend) and have the dog given a thorough physical, blood tests, etc., to see if there's any organic basis for whatever mood swing might have caused him to attack the cat... and to try to mitigate the abuse that the owner laid on him. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:07, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that's giving them quite enough credit. When a dog or cat has made a mess on the floor, for which they will be punished, they seem to know this and make themselves scarce when the owner comes home. So, they are able to think about the past and future to some extent. Guilt is a fairly complex emotion, though, so they might not be capable of that. StuRat (talk) 21:16, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't call that "guilt", just "trying to avoid pain", i.e. trying to avoid getting swatted. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:23, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Did I just read, "Jackson Galaxy, a cat psychologist"? 00:16, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Yes, you did. See Jackson Galaxy. He has a television show, which if you've seen one episode, you've seen them all since they're really repetitive. Dismas|^(talk) 01:38, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

That name's going straight on my list. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:25, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

wow, and wow again. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 04:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Is there room for Anil Gupta ? StuRat (talk) 05:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Why, of course. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 06:33, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Fascinating list. I think you left out Ima Hogg. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:45, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

It's there now. Tks. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 19:03, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

And it would be a cardinal sin to leave out Cardinal Sin. StuRat (talk) 03:57, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

There have been at least two Bishop Bishops. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 07:20, 6 November 2013 (UTC)

Basically all you did was show the dog that he did "something wrong". That may be guilt or an emotion closer to fear of the consequences from their owner. The death of the cat is not the guilt factor but the actions of the owner when trying to "shame" the animal. He was fearing for what would happen to him due to the manner in which he was being treated at the moment.--Mark Miller (talk) 00:30, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

"Jackson Galaxy" is a self-taught cat behavior expert with a TV show in which he helps owners of cats-from-hell. He legally changed his name while in his 20's from a birth name he keeps secret, per "Jackson Galaxy, the 'Cat Whisperer' of Animal Planet's My Cat From Hell". Edison (talk) 01:39, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Cat "psychologist" is probably an overstatement, yes. The typical My Cat from Hell episode contains footage of a very badly behaving cat or cats, with the owner's plea for help, a la Dr. Phil. Jackson then goes to the home and studies the cat... and also studies the dynamic in the home. Because it is often the owners who need treatment as much or more than the cat does. After each session he gives homework to the owners, who video their efforts and he checks back in two-week intervals. Miraculously, within about three visits every cat is doing well, as are the owners. Realistically, it could well take a lot longer, but it's only a half-hour show. Presumably any failed efforts don't make it to TV. However, certain common themes recur frequently. Given the large number of dogs kept as pets, and given dogs' higher-maintenance nature (as opposed to cats), I would think there's any number of dog-training sources. But back to the issue of "guilt", that's a human concept, a facet of morality. Animals don't have "morals", they just do what they do. They're a lot like children who haven't grasped the whys and wherefores of "morality". Rather, they just know that certain behavior can lead to pain. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:31, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Not enough food

In what areas of the world is food in short supply today?--98.88.145.182 (talk) 22:34, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

See [3]. That's 2012, but it probably hasn't changed much since then. StuRat (talk) 22:41, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks.--98.88.145.182 (talk) 23:49, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

You're quite welcome. StuRat (talk) 15:50, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Area of all world's cities

How much surface is taken up by all the world's cities? Alternatively, what % of the total Earth's land mass is that surface? Thanks 93.139.51.60 (talk) 23:21, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

Define "city". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:02, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Bugs is right, that said a site I used to use a ton is Demographia.com, they have global stats here, they tend to have some really detailed and even esoteric stats (the site is filled with internal links) but I don't see anything on land area, a google search does return a few UN and CIA factbook projections about % of human population in urban areas but nothing on overall land. Again, how does one define "city"? Stats are out there but they tend to do an "apples to apples" by determining urbanized area or metropolitan area etc. since depending on the nation and even the city actual city boundaries can include vast amounts of glaciers in the case of the super large cities of Alaska (yet tiny on population) and China, even Jacksonville Florida is one of the world's largest land mass cities but includes undeveloped and underdeveloped rural and wilderness. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 09:43, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Perhaps a more answerable question is, "What percentage of the Earth's surface is concealed by human constructions?" Someguy1221 (talk) 10:12, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

That's the problem - the IP has not specified whether he's looking for the full extent of the human footprint on earth, or merely the collective footprint of cities of some minimum size. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:29, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

The working definition used by Demographia.com is: "An urban area is best thought of as the “urban footprint” - the lighted area that can be observed from an airplane (or satellite) on a clear night. National census authorities in Australia, Canada, France, the United Kingdom and the United States designate urban areas. Except in Australia, the authorities use a minimum urban density definition of 400 persons per square kilometer (or the nearly identical 1,000 per square mile in the United States)." Here it does give areas for over 1500 of the largest cities, and in the final table it gives their total populations and population densities - from which it can be calculated that those cities cover a total of 143,000 square miles (370,000 km²), which on my calculation is 0.07% of total global land area. Those cities contain just over 2 billion people, which is probably less than half of the total urban population of the world. So, if you multiply the area by a factor of, say, 10, (as smaller cities will generally be at lower densities than larger ones), you still end up with a figure of less than 1% of global land area. However, my calculations are wholly unreliable.  :-) Ghmyrtle (talk) 10:42, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Glad you like my link Ghmyrtle, and agreed that if you make some stipulations as far as "apples to apples" you can after a very long time calculate a rough number, it is surprising no website has done this yet, especially as one as detailed as Demographia. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 11:58, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

November 2

Which has a bigger land mass South Jersey or the Fraser Valley in British Columbia?

Ocean county is in light blue. The 20-mile long island off its southern coast is Long Beach Island

Which has a bigger land mass South Jersey or the Fraser Valley in British Columbia? Venustar84 (talk) 05:35, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

The seven counties that make up what is generally considered to be South Jersey cover a total of 9651 square kilometers. I found this by simply adding the land areas from our articles on those counties. As far as Fraser Valley is concerned though, you'll have to arrive at your own definition of that since there isn't solid agreement on just how much area it covers. Since I provided the area in sq. km, you shouldn't have any problems with comparing the area when you find one for Fraser Valley as it's most likely listed in sq. km as well. In the end though, it will be up to your own definition of what you feel covers the Fraser Valley and South Jersey since neither is rigidly defined. Dismas|^(talk) 05:53, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

The southern half of Ocean County is usually considered part of South Jersey--it gets broadcasting from Philly and natives have a South Jersey accent. The boundary would be the Barnegat Inlet at the north end of Long Beach Island. μηδείς (talk) 15:16, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Not sure if it is comprehensive but the Fraser Valley Regional District covers an area of 13,361.74 sq. km.[4] Rmhermen (talk) 17:24, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

OR: As a resident of the Fraser River Delta myself, our local definition usually includes, as mentioned in the FVRD link above, Abbotsford and Chilliwack. It can also include the Langleys )Langley and the other Langley), the eastern reaches of Surrey, and sometimes as far as Hope, British Columbia (which is where the physical valley stops and the canyon starts.) It's pretty big. (Here's a general comparison based on what I think when I hear "Fraser Valley" http://mapfrappe.com/?show=13303 As mentioned above, definitions vary.) Mingmingla (talk) 17:42, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

As I said, neither is rigidly defined, though it does seem that the Fraser Valley is larger. Dismas|^(talk) 20:23, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Please help..... someone is using fraud I found on my credit report.

I checked my credit report,and found many discrepancies. Also numerous names mine, misspelled DR. I've never seen some out of state. I called Experian they were of no help. Only out for money. I searched the internet for the codes. Nothing I could find, being a single mother my credit is very important to me; and their of no help. I need my address ID number as well as the ID codes for what procedures they had done. I don't want to be in debt an loose my kids college funds. Thank You for your time, I will fax my report if need so I feel like I have been violated on their site I wasn't able to find the Geographical codes or my name ID number they had used. Again thank you and God Bless.

Sincerely, M — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.11.223.133 (talk) 09:26, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Sorry to hear that, however this is a general reference desk at Wikipedia, the online encyclopedia. We have no special powers or contact information and we are staffed by volunteers, we can also not give you any kind of legal advice. With that in mind contacting your local authorities (police) as well as the bank or financial institution that provides you with the card is what both the industry and authorities recommend in identity theft/fraud situations.

There are U.S. government websites that are designed to assist those that believe they have become victims of identity theft or fraud such as the FTC website and StopFraud.gov that also recommend that you contact the financial institution, those sites also give some info about contesting credit report data if that is your concern, and Experian has a site specifically for that. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 09:53, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

how does the number 3 contact to Ralph Lorn brand?

Recently I noticed that the Ralph Lorn clothes contains the number 3 on the sleeve or on the back like sport competition, would you know what this number says for Ralph Lorn or what is the connection is between the two (Ralph Lorn and number 3)176.13.246.12 (talk) 11:06, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

I believe you mean Ralph LAUrEn? ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 11:12, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Googling the subject indicates there is also a Ralph Lauren 1, 2, 4 and maybe others but I stopped at 4. Obviously it's a product line marketing strategy of some kind, but as to just what it means I couldn't say. If no one here knows, you could contact the company from their website. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:20, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

yes, I mean to Ralph Lauren, thank you for the correct and for the answer. for the truth, I saw only the number 3 and I didn't see the other numbers, but if you say that, I believe it. Probably the number 3 doesn't says anything. 176.13.246.12 (talk) 11:41, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

On the contrary, I would be fairly certain that it does mean something. But maybe it only really means something to those who are heavily into Ralph Lauren products. Which reminds me, I think one of the Tsarnaev brothers was wearing a Polo Ralph Lauren 3 cap. I'm guessing the company was not thrilled with that inadvertent "product placement". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 11:55, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Our 3 (number) article does go into some universal appeal of "3"s, then again you also had the Rolling Rock marketing that used "33" on all their bottles, I seem to remember that their is some marketing psychology on how humans react to different numbers. H.J. Heinz famously picked his "57" off a subway ad in New York City cause he saw how other riders were focused on the ads "21", and not because he had "57 varieties", later admitting he had over 100 by that time. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 12:03, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Sure, "3" has a lot of cultural significance. But how do you account for Ralph Laruen 1, 2, 4, etc.? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 12:12, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

Talking numbers in general, each one (or combo) eliciting a unique response.

Then again, the OP's question is proof that "3" may actually trump things like "57", since only the 3 'brand' had the desired effect of staying in a potential customers head to the point that the discussion is still ongoing. Should be noted that with "3" never discount the subtle but intense marketability of "the forbidden fruit"-or not so forbidden. ^{Market St.⧏} _{⧐ Diamond Way} 12:30, 2 November 2013 (UTC)

November 3

AL pitcher power at the plate

How many home runs have been hit by American League pitchers, playing in AL parks, since the designated-hitter rule went into effect? --Trovatore (talk) 05:20, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Are you talking post-season, regular-season or both? It's possible Retrosheet has something about this, but it might take some digging. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:26, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I was thinking regular season, but either would be interesting. --Trovatore (talk) 05:27, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I just looked through the Yankees pitchers on Retrosheet for just 2000-2012 (they don't have 2013 yet), and not only did they have a mere handful of at-bats during those years, you could just about count the hits on that one hand, and while there were a couple of RBI's here and there, there were no homers. With the expanded quantity of interleague games in 2013 (thanks to Astros switching cellars) it's possible there might be some. We'll have to wait and see. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:35, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Ha! I just googled [American League pitchers with home runs since 1973], and SABR has a page which includes that info.[5] There were 17 of them through 2011, and not surprisingly they have all come since interleague play began. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:40, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Were they in NL parks? I specified AL parks. --Trovatore (talk) 05:41, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

There are only 17 of them. Go to Retrosheet and look up the game logs for those dates and teams, and that will tell you. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 05:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

OK, good point. Thanks, Bugs. --Trovatore (talk) 05:58, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Searching 2012 probably wouldn't take much time. Just check the stats for each team and see what the pitchers have done. If there are any homers, you can quickly follow the links to track them down. 2013 might not be out yet because the stats need to be made official by the Elias bureau. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:00, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

What I'm really interested in is games where the DH is available, but the manager either elects not to use it, or makes a choice during the game that bars it (for example, leaving the DH in to play defense), and then the pitcher goes ahead and does something good at the plate. --Trovatore (talk) 06:53, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

You can check out those 17 box scores and probably figure out which ones, if any, meet your criteria. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 07:51, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

The answer is none in the regular season. The DH is always used in American League parks, so the only instances of a pitcher batting in one such park come if (a) a team forgoes the use of the DH; (b) a pitcher is used as a pinch-hitter; or (c) a pitcher had to bat because the DH has been moved to a defensive position. Instance (a) is extremely rare and usually results from a manager screwing up the line-up card; no homer has ever resulted from this. Instance (b) is also quite rare in the American League; all pinch-hit homers by pitchers in the last 40 years have been hit in National League parks (we're talking once-in-a-decade events). Instance (c) is somewhat more common, but occurs late in games, with relief pitchers getting the benefit of the at-bat when it happens; again, I have never seen an instance of a pitcher hitting a homer in such circumstances, although a few have gotten a hit (see Ryan Hancock). There has been one instance in the World Series, however: before the DH was introduced in the World Series, Ken Holtzman of the Oakland A's homered at home against Andy Messersmith of the Los Angeles Dodgers in Game 4 of the 1974 World Series boxscore here. --Xuxl (talk) 14:33, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

My dumb question: Why are pitchers automatically lousy batters? (Babe Ruth as a counterexample). Are the physical/mental characteristics which make for a good pitcher all that much rarer than the abilities needed to play other positions? Edison (talk) 22:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

They are not automatically lousy batters. See for example Don Robinson of the (1980s) Giants. Or lots more examples you can find here.

I think the point is that they don't really get paid for their batting, so they don't spend much time on it. Also, starters are not everyday players, and relievers are likely to be substituted for when they come up, so they don't get that many at-bats. --Trovatore (talk) 22:11, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

That's what it is. It's hard to focus on both facets. Pitchers focus on pitching. If they can hit, they can hit; if they can't, they either learn how to bunt or they try to hook up with an American League club. The Cubs in 2003 had two pitchers who could hit: Kerry Wood and Mark Pryor. In fact, it was Wood's extra base hit in Game 5 of the DS which ultimately sent the Braves home for the winter. Bob Gibson could hit. In fact, he was a better hitter than their shortstop, Dal Maxvill. However, Bob Buhl and Hank Aguirre were two of the worst-hitting pitchers that ever set foot on a diamond. Ruth, the ultimate counterexample, rebelled when he was asked to pitch every fourth day and play outfield the other days. He told his team "pick one", and they let him stop pitching for the most part so that he could bat every day. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:27, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Clogged Drain

I scoured the internet for, very simply, instructions on how to use a chemical drain cleaner. But all I can find is reasons why they're no good, suggestions for alternatives, instructions on how to use a snake thing, and instructions for typical sinks and tubs. Well, that doesn't help me at all, because I'm living in Korea and I'm fairly new here, so I have some unusual factors in this situation.

First, I couldn't find a snake or zip-it thing at any of my neighbourhood markets, but I did find chemical drain cleaner. (I can recognize it by the picture on the label. There is no such picture on vinegar or baking powder or whatever else it is they recommend, so I can't find those either, although I'm sure they're in the market somewhere.) So I'm stuck with the chemical drain cleaner.

Second, all the instructions on the bottle are in Korean. That's all I really want, just basic instructions, but I can't find any such instructions on the internet, because the internet assumes people can just read labels. I have unclogged a sink once before, but that was like two years ago, and I don't remember what I did. Third, it's not a traditional tub/shower, it's an entire wet room. Is my entire bathroom floor going to end up soaking in this stuff? How do I handle that?

Please help me. I'm a total domestic moron, who just needs a really basic step-by-step explanation of what to do with this bottle of drain stuff. Thank you! (Side note: at the ripe old age of 24, I cleaned my first ever toilet today, so I'm pretty proud of that!) Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 11:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

A sink plunger will be more effective than a chemical cleaner, and should be easy to buy and recognize at any hardware store. That being said, the basic procedure is: (a) Remove as much of the standing water as you can (let it drain out if there's any flow through the drain, or use a towel to mop it up if there isn't), (b) put on a pair of rubber gloves (and a pair of safety goggles wouldn't do any harm), (c) pour the drain cleaner down the drain until it reaches the top of the drain - don't let it spread over the floor too much, (d) wait until it drains away, (e) repeat (c) and (d) until the bottle is empty (or until you decide to give up and get a sink plunger instead). Tevildo (talk) 12:26, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Thanks. Like I said, I'm a domestic moron who is cleaning a bathroom for the first time in my life, in a foreign country no less, so I a) would have never even thought of a plunger, b) wouldn't know where to find one here, and c) wouldn't have the faintest idea how to use it. But the previous tenant left behind some drain cleaner, so... here goes :) Thanks for the directions; I shall try my best not to screw it up too badly! Cherry Red Toenails (talk) 13:05, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Another note, don't breath in the fumes from the Drain cleaner...Sfan00 IMG (talk) 18:59, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

I don't know anything about plumbing arrangements in Korea, but if the drain components under the floor are push fit, you would need to be a bit careful with a plunger to avoid forcing them apart. In our shower you can lift off the slightly domed cover and underneath the drain has a central screw so you can remove the grid thing (I don't know what it is called) and then you can lift up and clean a plastic trap just underneath. Thincat (talk) 19:51, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

DO NOT mix various chemical drain cleaners by pouring one down and then another, since some reactions between the strongly concentrated chemicals might release noxious gases or might cause caustic chemicals to spew up into your face. One chemical should be flushed away by water before you try another. Some drain clogs cannot be cured by all the plunger action in the world, since it may be downstream from the connection to the vent, and the pressure surges from the plunger just go up the vent stack. If all else fails, a plumber can snake the drain. In the US, it costs $150 to $200 to get a plumber to come and do his thing. The last time I had to hire one, he used the same type of drain auger I had, but was more successful in getting it around that last bend in the pipe before the clog. For maintenance of drains I like a biological cleaner, the "Plumb Clean" US brand. used weekly or so. No idea what bio cleaners are available in Korea. Edison (talk) 21:36, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

What is Request for Comment on Wikipedia?

I would like to request for comments on certain topics on my talk page and a few other talk pages that I have posted as well since no one has responded to what I have said in months. I was wondering how can I make others respond to what I have said without going on to editors talk pages and trying to get them to comment. Keeby101 (talk) 17:34, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

This sort of question should really be on the Help desk. However, if what you want to do is have a discussion about "certain topics", you're not supposed to - see WP:NOTBLOG. If you want to discuss the contents of a particular article, the place to do that is on the article talk page, not personal user talk pages. WP:RFC is part of the formal Wikipedia administrative/disciplinary process, but I assume that's not what you're referring to. Tevildo (talk) 17:57, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Dream-Stories

What is the first identifiable occurrence of the dream-story trope in a plot (where the entire event of a story takes place in a dream, as realised later toward the end of the story)? 202.153.41.162 (talk) 20:14, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Not sure if it's the first, but The Pilgrim's Progress (late 17th century) is one such book. You might try searching for pre-Pilgrim's Progress dream-story tropes. Nyttend (talk) 22:41, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

The Dream of the Rood is a tad or two earlier, and there are probably earlier ones still. But, as with The Pilgrim's Progress, the dream-format is made abundantly clear from the start. There's no big cop-out Dallas-type realisation that it was all just a dream, so maybe neither of them count for your purposes? - Karenjc (talk) 22:56, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

Hm, you're right; I was just remembering the bit at the end, where he says something like "And then I woke up, and whaddayouknow, it was all a dream". I'd completely forgotten that it's also mentioned at the start. Nyttend (talk) 02:00, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Dream world (plot device) is our article on the subject, although it doesn't say which is the earliest story that satisfies the OP's criterion. Tevildo (talk) 23:02, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

• Not an exact match, but there's the parable of the cave in Plato's Republic. μηδείς (talk) 02:44, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Jacob's Ladder was pretty early. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 08:41, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Some classical and medieval instances are described in our article Dream vision, though as Karenjc says, in these it's almost invariably clear from the beginning that the narration is describing a dream. For the now somewhat hackneyed "it was all a dream" ending, I'm having trouble thinking of any examples earlier than the Victorian period——such as Dickens's The Chimes and Carroll's Alice's Adventures in Wonderland, or in a somewhat different way Bierce's "An Occurrence at Owl Creek Bridge". Deor (talk) 12:03, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

"Many scholars interpret The Aeneid, the epic Latin poem/propaganda piece commissioned by Octavian to Virgil, as the earliest example of a story being "all just a dream"." TvTropes is hardly a reliable source, but it's usually my first stop on trope information before delving into further research. Don't know if it's too late in this thread to help... 81.147.166.89 (talk) 14:50, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Motorcycles on metal-deck bridges

Yesterday, I drove across the Irvin S. Cobb Bridge (Street View image of the crossing) and was surprised to see a warning to motorcyclists about the steel-grate deck. How would such a deck be dangerous on a motorcycle? Nyttend (talk) 22:40, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

A metal grating can have a similar effect to lane grooves, especially for vehicles with narrow tires. In other words, it makes steering into a curve somewhat harder. This is particularly problematic for two-wheeled vehicles like bikes that depend on dynamic stability to stay upright. Thus, the rider needs to be extra careful. --Stephan Schulz (talk) 23:16, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

In addition, metal surfaces are horrible to navigate on a bike because the reduction in traction makes it much likelier that a wheel will slip. With a bike you only have two small contact patches with the road instead of four; if either of them slips and you lose traction temporarily, unpleasant things happen very quickly. A car may just slide, but a bike can behave like a bronco in such conditions. If the rear wheel slips but the front doesn't, you risk a potentially lethal highside if you panic, brake and then let the rear brake off; if the front wheel slips, it's much harder to regain traction and keep straight on when you let the brake off, which is what you ought to do. Even riding over a manhole cover is best avoided if possible; a whole metal bridge is much worse. I don't know exactly what the steel grate is like on this bridge, but logically a "grate" surface implies that only part of the usual contact patch is actually in contact with the slippery metal surface at any one time, with the rest passing over the gap in the grating, reducing the area available for traction even further. Not a nice prospect. - Karenjc (talk) 23:27, 3 November 2013 (UTC)

It's difficult enough to control a car on that kind of surface. The drawbridges in Chicago, for example. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:05, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Never driven on one of those, although I know the Dickey Road canal bridge near Marktown in East Chicago. Nyttend (talk) 01:51, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure that we have those in the UK, but we do have cattle grids to keep motorcyclists awake! [6] Alansplodge (talk) 08:38, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Including my least favourite one, at junction 38 of the southbound M6, just as you are accelerating down the access ramp onto the motorway itself. Try suddenly encountering that on an (inevitably) drizzly dark morning on two wheels, scattering expletives at the sheep as you go. - Karenjc (talk) 09:55, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

After having walked on wet metal grating in work boots, I've often wondered how more motorcyclists don't die on metal spans. I'm normally very sure-footed but have slipped a bit more than once on wet metal grating. Dismas|^(talk) 10:12, 4 November 2013 (UTC)

Worth a read. http://gridchicago.com/2011/on-open-metal-grate-bridges/ 196.214.78.114 (talk) 11:57, 4 November 2013 (UTC)