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*{{not done}} [[User:Eatcha|Eatcha]] 06:45, 22 September 2020 (UTC)
*{{not done}} [[User:Eatcha|Eatcha]] 06:45, 22 September 2020 (UTC)

*{{done}} — ''[[User:Sanskari|'''<font color="#6A0888">San</font><font color="#F0A000">ska</font><font color="#00A300">ri</font>''']]'' <sup>[[User talk:Sanskari|Hangout]]</sup> 08:17, 24 September 2020 (UTC)

Revision as of 08:17, 24 September 2020

Template:IPA AE

Fowler&fowler's: Developing the article main body, and eventually rewriting the lead (in POV-embattled India-related articles)

"POV-embattled," by the way, means battlements of POV dot, litter, even crisscross the topic. This is long, but please bear with me. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:56, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Stage 1

The lead which is locked in the article right now is a summary of the topic, not the main body. It has due weight and overall reliability. In Stage 1, we have cited and summarized content from newspapers:

  • (a) which have correspondents based in India.
  • (b) whose articles (which are of interest to us) have bylines (i.e. the name of the correspondents shows up below the title of their story) and
  • (c) which are published in liberal democracies where there is no significant POV around this issue. (i.e. South Asian newspapers have been ruled out at this stage.)

We have cited from: NYTimes, Washington Post, Independent, Guardian, Times (London), and Le Monde. (There are obviously others as well, which we did not use. I will make a list elsewhere of newspapers which have correspondents based in India.)

By definition, the lead will not have all the notable details. The sources it cites may not have all the notable details either, because their main audience (an international one) may not be conversant with, or generally interested in, all local details. For expansion, therefore, you will need to look at the reliable high-quality Indian sources whose perspectives match the one in the lead, which now serves as a template of DUE.

Stage 2

In my view, for recent Indian events just six national newspapers in India are enough for fleshing out the details:

The Statesman (Kolkata, founded 1875/1817), The Hindu (Chennai, founded 1878), The Free Press Journal (Mumbai, founded 1928), The Indian Express (Delhi, founded 1933), Deccan Chronicle (Hyderabad, founded 1938), and The Telegraph (Kolkata) (founded 1982)

  • Question: Why bother to write such a lead in the first place?
  • Answer: Because if we don't, we will not have a DUE summary of the topic against which to measure the neutrality of our additions. Later, when a topic becomes older, text-books, other encyclopedias, reviews of literature, and so forth, become available for determining DUE, but for now, there is nothing else. Also, as the lead is what people read first, and sometimes, they read no further: it is important for it to be comprehensive and neutral, especially when the rest of the article is not.
  • Question: Why start with only these six Indian newspapers?
  • Answer: Because these newspapers have old traditions of excellence and independence. As print newspapers based in different regions of India, they necessarily have to summarize—in the multi-ethnic Indian context—in a manner that local or digital newspapers do not.

As an example, consider the "peace marches" in the New York Times story, which have been paraphrased in the lead as:

After the violence had abated in the thickly-settled mixed Hindu-Muslim neighbourhoods of North East Delhi, some Hindu politicians paraded alleged Hindu victims of Muslim violence in an attempt to reshape the accounting of events and to further inflame hostility towards Muslims.[1]

References

  1. ^ Gettleman, Jeffrey; Yasir, Sameer; Raj, Suhasini; Kumar, Hari (12 March 2020), "'If We Kill You, Nothing Will Happen': How Delhi's Police Turned Against Muslims", The New York Times, Photographs by Loke, Atul, retrieved 13 March 2020, The religiously mixed and extremely crowded neighborhoods in northeastern Delhi that were on fire in late February have cooled. But some Hindu politicians continue to lead so-called peace marches, trotting out casualties of the violence with their heads wrapped in white medical tape, trying to upend the narrative and make Hindus seem like the victims, which is stoking more anti-Muslim hatred.

There are stories about one peace march on February 29 in:

These should, therefore, be used to further expand the topic of peace marches, at least one peace march. Similarly, determining whether there were other marches, before or after, will require examining these sources for other dates.

Stage 3
After the main body is fleshed out in such fashion, the lead should be rewritten by summing up the main body. No footnotes, let alone extended quotes, will then be required in the lead unless a statement is highly controversial. But for now, they are essential.

In the language of artificial intelligence, the stages are 1: The lead is written using sources that are relatively low-res (or high-level (OED: high-level: relating to or concerned with a subject, system, or phenomenon as a whole, rather than its particular details.), or macro-level). 2. The main body is fleshed out using sources that are high-res (low-level, micro-level), but in keeping with the content of stage 1 (i.e. DUE). 3. The lead is rewritten as a low-res/high-level version of the main body.

Good luck, @SerChevalerie, NedFausa, SharabSalam, Kautilya3, Slatersteven, and DIYeditor: Pinging also: @RegentsPark, Abecedare, DougWeller, El C, Anachronist, Drmies, Johnbod, Bishonen, and Vanamonde93: Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:56, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fowler&fowler, thanks. SerChevalerie (talk) 14:34, 5 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Even though you haven't pinged me, I have been keeping this talk page in my watchlist. You did very well! Thank you, Fowler&fowler. --KartikeyaS (talk) 08:58, 7 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fowler&fowler's List of foreign newspapers with correspondents in India

Dear @SerChevalerie, NedFausa, SharabSalam, Kautilya3, Slatersteven, DIYeditor, and KartikeyaS343: Pinging also: @RegentsPark, Abecedare, DougWeller, El C, Anachronist, Drmies, Johnbod, Bishonen, and Vanamonde93: Collapsed below is a list I had mentioned above. It is much bigger than I had thought, and there are still some (Haarets, Jerusalem Post, in Israel, South African newspapers) which I have not examined. Still, used judiciously, it may prove useful in the future. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

PS I have not added the links/urls for newspapers that rigorously require a subscription, only the titles of the stories. (It is easier to search the title on Google.) If someone wants small blurbs from them, I'm happy to provide them. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:44, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

North America

Newspapers and other media in the US and Canada with correspondents in India
  • The Washington Post. (Subscrip. Req.) Joana Slater (India bureau chief), Neha Masih, Tania Dutta
  • "Worst communal violence in Delhi in decades leaves 17 dead as Trump visits India," February 25, by Slater, Masih, and Dutta
  • "Death toll passes 30 in Delhi violence as Modi issues plea for calm," February 26, Slater, Masih.
  • "Criticism of police grows after mob violence kills nearly 40 in India’s capital," February 27, by Slater
  • "Criticism of police grows after mob violence kills nearly 40 in India’s capital," February 27, Slater
  • "What Delhi’s worst communal violence in decades means for Modi’s India," March 2, Slater and Masih
  • The Wall Street Journal Bill Spindle (South Asia bureau chief); Vibhuti Agarwal (Commodities Reporter); Krishna Pokharel (Reporter)
  • "India’s Ruling Party, Government Slammed Over Delhi Violence," (subscription required; Pokharel, Agarwal, Spindle, February 26)
  • "India Begins Probe of Clashes That Left 38 Dead," (subscription required; Agarwal, Spindle, February 27)
  • The Christian Science Monitor (Subscrip. Not Req.) An American newspaper with a notable record of international reporting. Farhad Shah, India contributor
  • Associated Press (Subscrip. Not Req.)
  • Correspondents: Emily Schmall (South Asia correspondent) Sheikh Saaliq, Ashok Sharma
Sometimes the same article is carried with bylines by some newspapers and without by others:
  • Stories carried without byline by:
  • Toronto Star does not have a correspondent in Delhi, and generally uses AP
  • The Globe and Mail, Toronto, also does not have a correspondent in Delhi and uses AP and Reuters.
  • CBS (Columbia Broadcasting System, United States), correspondent: Arshad Zagar

United Kingdom and Ireland

Newspapers and other media in the UK and Ireland with correspondents in India
  • The Times (Subscrip. Req.) Hugh Tomlinson, South Asia correspondent, based in Delhi; Saurabh Sharma, Delhi
  • "Donald Trump’s visit to India marred by deadly violence against Muslims," February 26, by Hugh Tomlinson and Saurabh Sharma
  • "Hindu mobs threaten to purge Delhi of Muslims," February 27, Hugh Tomlinson
  • "Heroes rise in a city torn apart by riots," March 3, Hugh Tomlinson and Saurabh Sharma
  • "Anti-Modi protesters named on billboards," March 11, Hugh Tomlinson and Saurabh Sharma
  • "Anti-Modi protesters ordered to sign ‘good behaviour’ pledge," March 17, Hugh Tomlinson and Saurabh Sharma
  • Guardian, Hannah Ellis-Peterson, Delhi correspondent.
  • " ‘Targeted for being Muslim’: Inside the mosque burnt by rioters in worst Delhi violence for decades," February 26, by Adam Withnall
  • "Delhi riots: Death toll rises to 27 with mosque set on fire in deadliest violence in capital in decades," February 26, by Adam Withnall.
  • "Delhi riots: Dust settles after worst religious violence in decades as locals demand accountability," February 27, by Adam Withnall.
  • "UN human rights chief launches unprecedented legal action against Indian government over citizenship protests," March 3, by Adam Withnall
  • "Delhi riots: Violence that killed 53 in Indian capital ‘was anti-Muslim pogrom’, says top expert," March 7, by Adam Withnall
  • "The betrayal felt in the still-recovering areas hit by the Delhi riots makes coronavirus more of a threat," March 15, Pyall Dhar
  • "Why an Islamic gathering in Delhi has taken centre stage in India’s coronavirus debate," March 31, Adam Withnall
  • Financial Times, (Subscrip. Req.) Amy Kazmin South Asia Bureau Chief, based in Delhi; Stephanie Findlay, South Asia correspondent.
  • "New Delhi religious riots claim 17 lives in two days of violence," February 25, by Amy Kazmin
  • "Thousands of paramilitary police deployed in New Delhi after riots," February 26, by Amy Kazmin and Stephanie Findlay
  • "Narendra Modi woos world leaders in a city haunted by violence," February 26, by Amy Kazmin
  • "India riots: ‘We were attacked because we are Muslim’," February 28, by Stephanie Findlay and Amy Kazmin
  • Economist (Subscrip. Req.) (does not have bylines by tradition, only the location of the reporter)
  • "More than a dozen killed, hundreds injured as New Delhi riots overshadow Trump visit," February 25, Devjyot Ghosal, Manoj Kumar, New Delhi
  • "A mob out for blood: India's protests pit Hindus against Muslims," February 26, Danish Siddiqui and Devjyot Ghosal, New Delhi
  • "Death toll rises to 32 in religious violence in India's capital," February 27, by Aftab Ahmed, New Delhi
  • "A Delhi neighborhood divided by a highway and now hatred," February 27, by Aftab Ahmed, New Delhi
  • "Indian lawmakers scuffle over citizenship riots where 41 died," March 2 by Alisdair Pal and Aftab Ahmed, New Delhi
  • "More 'apartheid cities' seen in India after deadly Delhi riots," March 5, by Rina Chandran
  • "Delhi's displaced scrape a living after deadly riots," March 4, Alisdair Pal and Devjyot Ghosal, New Delhi
  • Irish Times, (Subscrip. Not Req.) Rahul Bedi, Contributor, New Delhi

Europe

Newspapers and other media in Europe with correspondents in India
  • Le Monde, (Subscrip. Req.) Sophie Landrin, India correspondent
  • "Trump célèbre la tolérance indienne quand des heurts intercommunautaires embrasent New Delhi," ("Trump celebrates Indian tolerance when cross-community clashes set fire to New Delhi") 25 février 2020, Sophie Landrin
  • "Inde : New Delhi en proie à de violents conflits intercommunautaires" ("India: New Delhi plagued by violent inter-community conflicts"), 26 février 2020, Sophie Landrin
  • "A New Delhi, trois jours de terreur" ("In New Delhi, three days of terror"), 27 février 2020, Sophie Landrin
  • "Attaques contre les musulmans à New Delhi : « J’ai pensé que j’allais mourir »" ("Attacks on Muslims in New Delhi: 'I thought I was going to die' "), 04 mars 2020, Sophie Landrin

Asia and Australia

Newspapers in Asia and Australia with correspondents in India
  • The Australian, generally carries articles from The Times, London. (Hugh Tomlinson, See above.)
  • The Age Melbourne, Ashok Sharma (AP)

Fowler&fowler«Talk» 00:34, 8 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Vote

Support
Oppose

OI FOWLER NOOOOO!! NedFausa (talk) 15:23, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Please note: in registering my opposition, I used the verbatim wording prescribed here. If I was misled, please advise. NedFausa (talk) 15:36, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Per wp:consensus "In determining consensus, consider the quality of the arguments, the history of how they came about, the objections of those who disagree, and existing policies and guidelines. The quality of an argument is more important than whether it represents a minority or a majority view. The arguments "I just don't like it" and "I just like it" usually carry no weight whatsoever.", you have to actually make a case.Slatersteven (talk) 15:48, 25 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, WP:BLP applies here - and this is not a discussion page for the riots

If multiple reliable sources discuss someone's activities and you want them added to the article, bring them here and suggest your wording.

DO NOT use this page to discuss them (or in fact the riots) - this isn't a forum, this page exists only to discuss improvements to the article. Doug Weller talk 10:50, 2 May 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This is exactly what we don't want. No sources, lot's of text filled with accusations and innuendo. We need 3rd party reliable sources for this page. Nothing short of that will do. El_C 17:22, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Every request to include reliable references about the other side of the story are getting denied by the editors. The page is clearly blaming hindus for the riot. It is blaming mr kapil mishra for the riot. But mr tahir Hussain's name cannot be found in the article. Because no indian court has convicted him yet. Has any indian court convicted the hindus? Has any indian court convicted mr kapil mishra?

No discussion is possible here because the output is clear. The editors will not include any valid reference about mr Hussain's involvement. They will not included any reference which shows that not only hindus, the muslims were also involved in the riots. There seems to be no violation of wp:blp when including Mr kapil mishra's name more than 30 times in the article. This article is an absolute violation of wp:npov. So no discussion is possible here. The editors are pushing their pov. So what else can be done? Where to raise complaints agains this religiously biased article? Quanta127 (talk) 04:07, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Once again, we cannot call people terrorists are murders on this page unless they've been convicted

I'm removing them from the record when I can as WP:BLP violations. If I catch someone doing it twice I'll block them at least from this talk page and the article. Doug Weller talk 09:55, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Should have have some banner at the top or something (not that I think it will matter, as this is all about POV pushing.Slatersteven (talk) 10:01, 15 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Collapsing somewhat incoherent comment. Same as above. WP:FALSEBALANCE; little grasp of the WP:BLP policy; no reliable 3rd party sources; accusations and innuendo. El_C 17:26, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
WP:BLP is not getting violated when the entire article indicates that Mr Kapil mishra is the main culprit behind the riots? Numerous references are included which indicate that mr mishra is the mastermind of the riot. Does WP:BLP apply to people of a particular religion. If not then where is Mr. Tahir Hussain's name? Including Mr Hussain's name is violation of WP:BLP but including Mr Kapil mishra's name is allowed? This is clearly POV pushing by the editors. If the editors are including Mr kapil mishra's name then include Mr tahir Hussain's name also. If if the editors do not want to include Mr. Hussain's name then remove Mr. mishra's name.

There is WP:BLP violation by the editors of the page. So please do the necessary. Quanta127 (talk) 05:40, 16 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia policy on police reports and a note that Wikipedia is not a place to carry on real world conflicts

The policy that we enforce most strictly is our policy on recently deceased and living persons. WP:BLP. Part of that policy, WP:BLPPRIMARY says "Do not use trial transcripts and other court records, or other public documents, to support assertions about a living person. Do not use public records that include personal details, such as date of birth, home value, traffic citations, vehicle registrations, and home or business addresses."

This policy applies not just to the article but to this talk page. Just to strengthen it, I'm putting the article (and talk page) under our BLP discretionary sanctions.

I hope this explains to all the new editors why Administrators such as myself have been taking the actions that we have taken and will continue to take. If anyone continues to break our policy either here or the article after warnings, they can expect to be blocked from editing at all, or banned from any pages in the sanction area. Too many editors are treating the article and talk page in a WP:BATTLEGROUND matter. Wikipedia is not here to WP:right great wrongs. Probably something like this belongs at the top of the page, although too many new editors probably don't read anything there. Doug Weller talk 09:10, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Misleading article

Highly biased article, painting the hindus as the main villains and showing musalman population as the victim, whereas the major dammage and vandalism was done by the Muslim side. Not a religious debate but i feel like the article should have been a bit more unbiased and showed the true chronology of events Nishantsingh3001 (talk) 17:49, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Nishantsingh3001 Wikipedia summarizes what independent reliable sources state. If you have suggestions for specific changes, please offer them along with independent reliable sources to support them. Please review some of the numerous prior discussions with similar concerns as you first, as it's likely this has been discussed already. This is a dispute with passionate supporters on each side, with views based in ancient religions that have difficulty getting along. We will not solve it here. 331dot (talk) 18:50, 15 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Seconded, RS say this, we repeat it.Slatersteven (talk) 10:24, 16 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I agree the entire wiki page is filled with cherry picked incedents to support a groups pov GhostIn$hell (talk) 06:12, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

GhostIn$hell Please offer specific changes you feel are needed, along with independent reliable sources to support them, keeping in mind past discussions on this topic. 331dot (talk) 07:15, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
These repeated "it's biased" interjections are getting old. We need sources.--Hippeus (talk) 11:07, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We need a FAQ we can just point to, and maybe full page protection.Slatersteven (talk) 11:54, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hail Lord Rama is biased translation for Jai shree Ram.

Reliable sources that translates "Jai Shri Ram" as "Victory to Lord Rama" (hi to en)
Source Phrase
https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/13/jai-shri-ram-india-hindi/ literally translates as “Victory to Lord Ram,”
https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/india-jai-shri-ram-rallying-call-of-hindu-mobilisation-gains-prominence-bengal-politics-bjp-mamata-banerjee-538196 'Jai Shri Ram' or victory to Lord Ram is a religious
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/jai-shri-ram-a-slogan-that-changed-political-contours-of-india-1568051-2019-07-13 literally means victory to Lord Ram, the prince
https://www.hindusforhumanrights.org/en/blog/hfhr-organized-a-press-conference-on-aug-3rd-to-say-no-celebration-of-hate-in-times-square salutation "Jai Shri Ram" (Victory to Lord Ram)
https://www.thequint.com/news/hot-news/how-jai-shri-ram-gained-prominence-in-bengal-politics 'Jai Shri Ram' or victory to Lord Ram
https://scroll.in/article/934961/ground-report-how-jai-shri-ram-sparked-friction-in-two-cities-with-the-poor-paying-the-price out in Parliament: “Jai Shri Ram”, Victory to Lord Ram
https://caravanmagazine.in/religion/jo-na-bole-jai-shree-ram-varun-bahar-song Those who will not chant victory to lord Ram.
https://www.outlookindia.com/newsscroll/how-jai-shri-ram-gained-prominence-in-bengal-politics/1583236 Jai Shri Ram or victory to Lord Ram -- a religious
https://www.freepressjournal.in/india/how-jai-shri-ram-gained-prominence-in-west-bengal-politics 'Jai Shri Ram' or victory to Lord Ram
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/babri-mosque-case-special-cbi-court-completes-recording-of-statements/story-7yR7cgQ8O3cIW3INvCYEKO.html "Jai Shree Ram" (Victory to Lord Ram) as bricks of
https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/indias-supreme-court-clears-way-for-a-hindu-temple-at-countrys-most-disputed-religious-site/2019/11/09/ca0b54f8-0258-11ea-8341-cc3dce52e7de_story.html shouts of “Jai Shri Ram!” — victory to Lord Ram
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/deadly-violence-sweeps-indian-capital-new-delhi-during-trump-visit-n1143331 chants of "Jai Shri Ram," or “Victory to Lord Ram
https://www.newyorker.com/news/q-and-a/the-real-objective-of-mob-violence-against-muslims-in-india “Jai Shri Ram,” or “Victory to Lord Ram,” a favored
https://mainichi.jp/english/articles/20200226/p2g/00m/0in/087000c "Jai Shri Ram," or "Victory to Lord Ram,
https://thediplomat.com/2020/02/death-toll-spikes-to-24-from-delhi-riots-during-trump-trip/ “Jai Shri Ram,” or “Victory to Lord Ram,” the popular Hindu god
https://www.euronews.com/2020/02/26/deadly-riots-rock-delhi-for-days-as-religious-groups-clash-in-indian-capital amid chants of “Jai Shri Ram,” or “Victory to Lord Ram,” the
https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/CRECB-1999-pt4/html/CRECB-1999-pt4-Pg5662.htm a mob chanting ``Victory to Lord Ram burned down
https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/02/india-violence-latest-updates-200226070002041.html 'Jai Shri Ram', translated to "Victory to Lord Ram", paraded around
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/tejasvi-surya-danish-ali-whos-misrepresenting-hindutva-debate-times-now-summit-2020-day/553066 former says victory to Lord Ram and the latter says
https://cnewa.org/magazine/searching-for-common-ground-30907/ shouting, “Victory to Lord Ram,” as they
https://apnews.com/75fcfa1b92b991ccf4144fa6247e3e6c “Victory to Lord Ram,” the popular Hindu god
https://columbiabasinherald.com/news/2020/feb/25/hindu-muslim-clashes-kill-18-in-delhi-as-modi/ or “Victory to Lord Ram,” the popular Hindu god
https://www.jstor.org/stable/40664945 (victory to Lord Ram), expressing their unflinching
https://www.mercurynews.com/2020/02/26/death-toll-from-delhi-unrest-rises-to-24/ “Jai Shri Ram,” or “Victory to Lord Ram,” the
https://time.com/5794354/delhi-riots-muslims-india/ of “Jai Shri Ram” (“Victory to Lord Ram” — a deity who has
https://www.taiwannews.com.tw/en/news/3887564 "Jai Shri Ram," or “Victory to Lord Ram,”
https://www.businessinsider.in/india/news/indias-second-highest-ranking-law-officer-sees-no-urgency-in-a-case-on-delhi-violence/articleshow/74318695.cms Jai Sriram” (victory to Lord Ram).
https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2020/feb/25/hindu-muslim-clashes-kill-13-in-delhi-as-modi-trum/ while chanting “Jai Shri Ram,” or “Victory to Lord Ram,
https://www.ft.com/content/4b68c89c-711c-11e9-bf5c-6eeb837566c5 words “Jai Sri Ram” (“Victory to Lord Ram”)
https://www.rediff.com/news/1999/apr/01varsha.htm They shouted, 'Victory to Lord Ram!
https://www.economist.com/asia/2003/02/27/the-new-templars “Jai shri Ram!”—victory to Lord Ram
https://www.nytimes.com/2004/04/19/world/among-india-s-tribes-a-campaign-for-hearts-and-minds.html Jai Shri Ram victory to Lord Ram
https://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/hindu-muslim-clashes-kill-13-delhi-modi-trump-69220249 "Jai Shri Ram," or “Victory to Lord Ram,”
https://www.msn.com/en-xl/news/other/death-toll-rises-to-24-as-communal-frenzy-grips-delhi/ar-BB10rRIS “Jai Shri Ram”, or Victory to Lord Ram
Reliable sources that translates "Jai Shri Ram" as "Hail to Lord Rama" (hi to en)
Source Phrase
https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/archive/column/from-siya-ram-to-jai-shri-ram-794966
https://www.indiatvnews.com/news/world-jai-shri-ram-slogans-watch-video-pm-modi-speech-japan-kobe-g20-summit-530720 'Jai Shri Ram' means hail or victory
https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/pm-modi-uses-silver-brick-to-lay-the-foundation-stone-of-ram-mandir/story-SdjaznicaNTMBh4WSxk8OK.html
https://www.tribpub.com/gdpr/baltimoresun.com/
https://asiatimes.com/2017/07/gang-forces-muslim-journalist-chant-jai-sri-ram/ victory or hail
https://www.nytimes.com/1992/12/07/world/hindu-militants-destroy-mosque-setting-off-a-new-crisis-in-india.html
https://fr.reuters.com/article/idUSKCN1NR039
https://thewire.in/politics/twitter-trends-manipulation-facebook-group-right-wing
https://www.wired.com/story/indias-frightening-descent-social-media-terror/
https://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/pakistani-hindus-india-demand-citizenship-rights-190702152117141.html
https://www.amnesty.org/en/countries/asia-and-the-pacific/india/report-india/
https://www.deccanherald.com/national/cong-wins-chitrakoot-bypoll-defeats-bjp-by-over-14000-votes-617862.html
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jEUdPqYQjhoC&pg=PA259&lpg=PA259&dq=Jai+shree+Ram+%2B+%22hail%22+to+lord+raMA&source=bl&ots=r5asIT2RxN&sig=ACfU3U2DVxX5woS5vpaySeTMuxC9GRRMnw&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiej_XKovDrAhXMX8AKHW4ICVY4WhDoATAFegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=Jai%20shree%20Ram%20%2B%20%22hail%22%20to%20lord%20raMA&f=false
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=eoO-DwAAQBAJ&pg=PT78&lpg=PT78&dq=Jai+shree+Ram+%2B+%22hail%22+to+lord+raMA&source=bl&ots=LaC7jWQV0A&sig=ACfU3U11rlCmwWLBMmjuc1MkxuIbBli8oA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiej_XKovDrAhXMX8AKHW4ICVY4WhDoATAHegQIAhAB#v=onepage&q=Jai%20shree%20Ram%20%2B%20%22hail%22%20to%20lord%20raMA&f=false
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=ol-63orWw68C&pg=PA81&lpg=PA81&dq=Jai+shree+Ram+%2B+%22hail%22+to+lord+raMA&source=bl&ots=FVjhDUYJA2&sig=ACfU3U3Jv2aQ9-QTjmCfH0sxnkX_RcweLA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiIoqCMo_DrAhUCmVwKHbX9Dn04ZBDoATACegQIARAB#v=onepage&q=Jai%20shree%20Ram%20%2B%20%22hail%22%20to%20lord%20raMA&f=false Hail Ram
https://www.ft.com/content/484d22e6-5967-11ea-a528-dd0f971febbc
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2019/dec/18/india-clamps-down-against-citizenship-law-protests
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=jEUdPqYQjhoC&pg=PA259&dq=Jai+shree+Ram+%2B+%22hail%22+to+lord+raMA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjHg8TGo_DrAhVFUBUIHR7ZDykQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=Jai%20shree%20Ram%20%2B%20%22hail%22%20to%20lord%20raMA&f=false

How "Jai shree Ram" translated as "Hail Lord Ram". Biased translation. Sounds similar to "Hail Hitler". Please discuss and hopefully fix this biased translation. Wikipedia is literally comparing Rama to Hitler! -- Eatcha 10:29, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Eatcha: Wikipedia is not comparing Rama to Hitler. I think that has to be one of the the most ridiculous things I've read on Wikipedia in 10 years. Hail Hitler also sounds like Hail Mary... is Wikipedia comparing Hitler to Mary? —MelbourneStar☆talk 10:41, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Can you see the context of the article? What reminds you when you hear "Hail ..." And "Killing based on religion and ...".

The translation is just incorrect and with the context of the article "religious killings by nationalists". Eatcha 10:49, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Eatcha: fascinating -- these are all your connections that you're making. Please don't assume that's the case for everybody else. —MelbourneStar☆talk 10:54, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Now BBC is the highest authority for translating Hindi. How can a British organization decide the translation of Indian words? Try Google translator, Bing translation or lookup in your reliable British Oxford dictionary. The translation is just incorrect. Am I allowed to provide Indian sources or will they be considered biased in favour of British broadcasting corp. Eatcha 11:06, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Not only is the BBC considered a reliable source, but translating anything to English by an authoritative English source makes sense to me. —MelbourneStar☆talk 11:20, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Translating "anything"? Isn't "anything" supposed to Hindi here, an Indian language. BBC, a British public broadcaster is reliable but CGTN/DW/DD/RT/PTR etc are considered biased sources and sometimes termed as government propaganda. Eatcha 11:33, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Criticism of the BBC and BBC controversies. In my opinion BBC is not only unreliable but heavily biased. Two Wikipedia pages for controversy and criticism. Hail BBC! -- Eatcha 11:38, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Please read wp:rs and wp:RSP, if you wish to overturn this take it to wp:rsn.Slatersteven (talk) 11:46, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not a fan of rabbit holes. ;) -- Eatcha 13:07, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Its called policy, if you do not wish to do things how we do them...Slatersteven (talk) 11:53, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Eatcha, can you provide a better translation with links to reliable sources? Regards, TryKid [dubious – discuss] 11:24, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
How about https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/02/13/jai-shri-ram-india-hindi/  ? Foreign policy is reliable? -- Eatcha 11:58, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
We also have [[1]], I suspect many more.Slatersteven (talk) 11:32, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
It also sounds similar to Hail to the Chief.Slatersteven (talk) 11:35, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As some of the source I found make clear, it in fact has a number of meanings, three appears to be no definitive one.Slatersteven (talk) 13:21, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Fix your title. It's actually hi to en. :) -- Eatcha 13:22, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Opinions

  • Support changing this biased translation which is comparing Rama with a mass murderer like Hitler. In Hindi language "Jai shree Ram" is would be literally translated to "Victory to Lord Rama". Jai = victory, shree = Lord/respected person, Ram = Name of Rama in Hindi language. -- Eatcha 10:29, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose it can also mean "Glory to Lord Rama", Also RS say "Hail Lord Ram" is a correct translation [[2]], and the justification for change is spurious at best.Slatersteven (talk) 10:50, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • (edit conflict)Oppose aside from this obviously being bit of a reach, "Hail Lord Ram" is the translation per the BBC. Because someone, somehow, is offended by its translation is not an adequate reason for its removal. —MelbourneStar☆talk 10:54, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I am a Hindi speaker. I think it's a reasonable translation and it has adequate support from sources. "Glory to Lord Ram" is also fine, but if there is to be a change, I would like to see some authoritative interpretation or textual support of that translation. I don't think a change is warranted simply because someone is offended by the making tenuous connections that they, themselves, making to this translation. Naushervan (talk) 12:33, 17 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Meh. Much ado about nothing. "Hail", "Victory to", or "Glory to" — it's splitting hairs. Being offended isn't a valid reason to change. If there's a preponderance of reliable sources supporting one particular translation, that's what should be used. If the sources all use equally good translations, we just pick one, as has been done already. Nothing to see here. Move on. ~Anachronist (talk) 03:38, 18 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indifferent "Jai" is a Hindi origin term which is common in all sorts of English publications. I think it is common enough to be either part of Indian English or at least Hinglish. I hear Jai Hind (wiki article on the phrase) for all sorts of Indian events and phrases like Jai Maharashtra (wiki article on company) for various specific celebrations. There is not a pure English translation for this concept but in American English I think the closest translation is "Viva", as in Viva la revolución, which is a French or Spanish phrase which English adopted. I suppose it would be silly to translate this to "Viva Rama" but I think that is closer to the actual meaning than "hail" or "glory to". I do not see either of those two options as offensive, though. Blue Rasberry (talk) 20:39, 19 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose From the Oxford Hindi-English Dictionary, compiled by R. S. McGregor, Oxford University Press, 1993. The Hindi (or Sanskrit) word जय (jai, jaya) has two forms: (a) the feminine noun meaning "victory" and (b) the interjection meaning "Long live!" or Hail (to की) Examples: जय गोपाल​ (Jai Gopal) Hail to Gopal (Krishna) (page 360); also श्री (śri, shri, shree): Honourific prefix to the name (of a male deity, a man, a sacred place) example: श्री कृष्ण (Shree/Shri Krishna): Lord Krishna (page 958)
  • If that is not good enough, here is: Dasa, Syamasundara (1965–1975) Hindi sabdasagara. Navina samskarana. Kasi (Varanasi): Nagari Pracarini Sabha, "the largest monolingual dictionary of Hindi" (see description of the dictionary here) hosted at the Digital Dictionaries of South Asia site at the University of Chicago. For jaya, please see entry 6 here and for its relevant translation using Google Translate (which is fairly accurate in this instance) see the box on the right here, which says, "Special - In Sanskrit, the word Jai is masculine, but in the meaning of 'victory' in Hindi, it is used in only in female. Apart from special blessings, this word is also used to indicate the elation of the deities and in which there is some sense of solicitation. Jai Gopal Long live Shri Krishna . Jai Ram, etc. (salutation) (Two errors: pulling == masculine; Adi = etc.) So, summing up: the "Jai" in "Jai Shree Ram" has the meaning of the interjection, not the female noun, and the full expression means: "Long live or Hail Lord Rama!" not "Victory to ..." There is no doubt about this. I request now that this discussion be closed expeditiously. Best regards, Fowler&fowler«Talk» 04:21, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • @Eatcha: Let me suggest politely that beyond providing a certain perverse entertainment value persistingly promoting amateurish nonsense on Wikipedia is generally considered disruptive. Someone has to be blunt with you, so it better be me. I hope this is clear. Fowler&fowler«Talk» 13:12, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Indifferent. Hail is a proper English word, I don't see it as strongly Hitler related (while Heil may be Hitler associated in English). It could be translated different, but it's not a big deal.--Hippeus (talk) 11:06, 20 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 21 September 2020

Change "...chiefly caused by Hindu mobs attacking Muslim." to "...which was admittedly pre-planned by Muslim left-wing activists."

This is not only is an unproven fact but FALSE. Sources: https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/tahir-hussain-admits-to-planning-north-east-delhi-riots-police-report/story-uruyQ6ew8t3K9V5uzLCAgL.html https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/delhi-riots-planned-to-discedit-india-during-trump-visit-delhi-police-1700702-2020-07-15

Alternate suggestion : Remove "...chiefly caused by Hindu mobs attacking Muslim." Aduser99 (talk) 06:59, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Needs mention of premeditated Rioting by a nexus of Leftist-Islamist Fundamentalists at the behest of Tahir Hussain, Umar Khalid and co.

There is mounting evidence about the role of Aam Aadmi Party's Tahir Hussain, Son of Ex-SIMI(An Organization banned for links to Islamic Terror Outfits like Indian Mujahideen.) Leader and JNU student Umar Khalid ,Khalid Saifi among others who instigated a mob of Islamic Fundamentalists, in Muslim-majority areas like Chand Bagh to riot in the capital to coincide with the Donald Trump visit, The admission of this conspiracy is seen in Umar Khalid's Amravati Speech on Feb 17th, a full week before the US Presidential visit to India. https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/delhi-riots-planned-to-discedit-india-during-trump-visit-delhi-police-1700702-2020-07-15 The article needs to be updated to include these facts, instead of lying that Hindu Mobs attacked Muslims, when the reverse seems to be the case, looking at the irrefutable evidence shaping up in the investigation.

Please read the talk page, we have discussed this over and over again.Slatersteven (talk) 11:34, 21 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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