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June 14

Etymology of the word Islam

Hi does anyone have proper reference on the etymology of the word Islam? The word Islam is a homograph having multiple meanings such as Peace, Submission, Serenity etc.. But I am not able to find any scholarly reference on this. Can someone help me with this. NëŧΜǒńğer^{Peace Talks} 13:18, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How about the Encyclopedia of Islam? Unfortunately you need to be able to login to www.brillonline.nl to read it. Hopefully your local library will have it...if you live near a university library, I'm sure it will be there. Adam Bishop (talk) 15:56, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Islam إسلام is derived from the same abstract triconsonantal root as the Arabic word for "peace" (salam سلام), but Islam simply does not mean "peace" in any ordinary or direct way (other than by means of remote etymological connections -- and if we count those, then the English word nice would actually mean "ignorant", etc. etc.).

Within the system of consonantal roots, Arabic morphology (like that of other Semitic languages) also has the concept of verb stems (see Arabic_grammar#Stem_formation). It turns out that if you look at Arabic dictionaries, then Stem I, Stem III, and Stem VI derivatives of the root S-L-M س ل م have meanings such as "to be whole", "to be peaceful", "to make one's peace with" etc., while the Stem II, Stem IV, Stem V, Stem VIII, and Stem X derivatives of the root S-L-M س ل م have meanings such as "to hand over, turn over, deliver, surrender, give up, betray, submit" or "to obtain, receive". Islam is a morphological Stem IV derivative, and the meanings of Stem IV derivatives of this root have no particular connection with the concept of "peace". When the word Islam was chosen to name a religion, this was done with reference to its meaning "submission" (i.e. submission to God), as far as can be ascertained. AnonMoos (talk) 17:34, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Scandinavian names

I was searching for the English/British translation of some Scandinavian given names:
Åke/Aage/Åge, Birger, Björn/Bjørn, Burkhard, Eggert, Einar, Eskil/Eskild, Finn, Fridtjof, Frodi, Gunnar/Gunner, Håkan/Haakon, Hartvig, Helge, Ingolf, Ingemar, Kjell, Leif, Östen/Östen, Sigvard, Sven/Svein/Svend, Torvald, Ulf, Ove. I would appreciate historical-obsolete forms too.
For example, the English equivalent of Erik would be Eric. Or Dustin for Torsten/Torstein, Canute for Knud/Knut. Thank you. --151.51.19.115 (talk) 17:14, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Most of those you have quoted are not known in English except in one of their original forms. Though it would not surprise me to find a reference book somewhere that solemnly listed 'English' equivalents to them, but it would be a work of fiction. It had never occurred to me that 'Dustin' was anything to do with 'Torstein'. --ColinFine (talk) 17:27, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

By translation, do you mean "accepted Anglicization" or "corresponding form derived from the same etymological root" or "hypothetical form reconstructed as derived from the same etymological root"? The first two are only likely to give fragmentary results. The third method was practiced quite a bit by Tolkien in coming up with names for his books, but you would need to have a lot knowledge in various areas of linguistics and history to come up with plausible results... AnonMoos (talk) 17:48, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Definitely the first two options! :-) --151.51.19.115 (talk) 17:51, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Might I recommend Wiktionary? Check the Scandinavian name's page, for each name, but if it doesn't list the English counterpart try Special:WhatLinksHere to see whether any English-language names' entries list the Scandinavian name in their translation sections.—msh210℠ 23:05, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wiktionary has this version of Canute. He probably works at French Connection (clothing). -- JackofOz (talk) 23:15, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why would he work at fcuk.174.3.103.39 (talk) 03:25, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm extremely loath to explain jokes, so all I'll say is anagram. -- JackofOz (talk) 13:33, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I used to work with a Lewis man called Uisdean, which is the Scottish Gaelic version of Øystein. Mikenorton (talk) 06:47, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some names related to those have produced surnames in northern England; Osgill may be from a cognate of Eskild, for example. Sweyn is in historic use. Ulf may of course be translated Wolf. —Tamfang (talk) 07:02, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bjorn simply means bear (but perhaps bairn could suffice?). Frodi is Frodo, apparently, Eggert is Egbert, Birger = Burgher (but wouldn't be used as a name). Steewi (talk) 00:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Bairn in English and Scots is closely related to the Swedish word barn meaning child/children - which presumably itself has a close cognate in Old Norse. 'Bear' is known and used as a male first name in English, although it's rare. On a related note, Sven is cognate with the English common noun swain. AlexTiefling (talk) 22:37, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"You" in Punjabi?

I heard that Punjabi has T-V distinction with tū̃ and tusī̃. How would you write these two words in the standard writing system of Punjabi? Are they among these?

ਤੁਸੀ
ਤੁਸੀਂ
ਤੂੰ
ਤੈਂ

--Sonjaaa (talk) 18:45, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See b:en:Punjabi/Backup. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:13, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see an answer in there...? --Sonjaaa (talk) 20:04, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See the pronoun section on the page. The plural you (ਤੁਸੀਂ) is used to indicate respect. See also this book. Abecedare (talk) 20:13, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

At the right-hand side of the page, there is a table of contents. If you click on sub-subsection 7.2.1 ਪੁਰਖਵਾਚਕ ਪੜਨਾਂਵ (Personal pronoun), you can find the "Table of declensions of personal pronouns". In the row "subjective case" and under "second person", you can find the singular form ਤੂੰ and the plural form ਤੁਸੀਂ. I understand that the T-V distinction in languages involves formal and informal usage, which are not made explicit in the Wikibooks page, but it might be assumed that the singular form corresponds to informal usage and the plural form corresponds to formal usage.

-- Wavelength (talk) 20:26, 14 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians by language has a link to Category:User pa. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:07, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Backup page has been shifted to other appropriate places. Information on pronouns has been shifted to [[1]]. Please, however, note that this wikibook is for beginners and may not serve the purpose Sonjaaa is looking for. -- 117.96.147.149 (talk) 08:24, 7 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

June 15

Pam

What are ironpans?

The picture is of a stagnopodzol in upland Wales, and shows the typical sequence of organic topsoil with leached grey-white subsoil with iron-rich horizon below. The example has two weak ironpans.
— http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spodosols

]]174.3.103.39 (talk) 02:55, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ferricrete says "ironpan" is a synonym. Adam Bishop (talk) 04:32, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Crudely speaking, an ironpan is a layer of iron-rich soil usually found under layers sand and peat, or similar material formed from a bog: it's created by the downward-moving bog water leaching the minerals out of the soils above and depositing them on a more impermeable layer beneath - see bog iron. Some ironpans were a source of the metal in the Iron Age. I'm sure anyone with some formal knowledge of the geophysical sciences could give a much more detailed and accurate answer. Contributions/87.81.230.195 (talk) 19:53, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If these answers don't tell you what you wanted to know, you could always ask Pam. :) -- JackofOz (talk) 21:35, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Wikipedia:Reference desk/Science. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:57, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians has a link to Category:Wikipedians by profession. -- Wavelength (talk) 22:04, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Modern novels/authors in project Gutemberg/Librivox

What modern novels/authors can be found in project Gutemberg, Librivox and similar sites?--Mr.K. (talk) 12:52, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Project Gutenberg and LibriVox and Category:Book websites. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:06, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Project Gutenberg only publishes book out of copyright so modern authors are less likely to be included, depending of course how you define modern. Contributions/86.4.190.83 (talk) 15:09, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Correction: Project Gutenberg mostly publishes books that are out of copyright. By the way, this query would have been better placed on the Humanities reference desk. --Anonymous, 05:00 UTC, June 16, 2009.

Joan

How is the male Catalan name "Joan" pronounced? Recury (talk) 14:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Catalan orthography, Catalan phonology and Talk:Joan Miró#Pronunciation suggest [ʑuˈan]. — Emil J. 14:26, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Confirmed. I have a Catalan friend called Joan. --NorwegianBlue^talk 21:24, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You can hear the name pronounced at about 1:05 of this podcast (the 12th of June podcast of 'Internauta of Catalunya Radio). To my ears, there is a weak initial "d" sound, so the pronunciation of the inital "J" is close to that of English "John". --NorwegianBlue^talk 08:58, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Wikipedians by language has a link to Category:User ca. -- Wavelength (talk) 20:19, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Alphabetic Order

I tried searching our articles on English alphabet and alphabetic order, but didn't find an answer. Why is the English alphabet in the order it is in? Did it just happen by chance, like everyone got together and said "Hey, let's make A the first letter, why not?" I know some alphabets have letters arranged by how you pronounce them, is this related? Or is there some other reason? --Alinnisawest,^{Dalek Empress} (extermination requests here) 15:28, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does Alphabet#Alphabetic order give a better insight? Astronaut (talk) 16:21, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does it? Why was the early Semitic alphabet in the order it was in? — Emil J. 16:45, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See History of the alphabet#Letter names and sequence of some alphabets. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:41, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See this page in Google Books, referring to Hebrew acrostics in the Bible. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:49, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Short story about a kid who finds out that he's poor

I know this doesn't really fit here, but I think the audience of this group is more likely to know the answer.

Does anyone know what the name / author is of this short story? A kid is at school and his teacher tells the class that they are going to do things to help the poor. The kid feels great about this and is all excited about helping them out. When he gets home his parents seem uninterested. When he goes back to school the next day he has nothing to offer. The teacher is OK with it. I think it is the next night that the kid figures out for himself that his family is one of the poor families he had heard about. Before then he had no idea. It was the only life he had ever known.

I have no idea when the story was written, but I read it about 30 years ago. That's so long ago I may not even have the story 100% correct. --Wonderley (talk) 18:16, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please don't post the same question on multiple RD's --ColinFine (talk) 23:13, 15 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would normally agree with you Colin, but as I stated at the beginning of this post, this is the audience that would most likely know the answer. Even though it is not a question about language, the group that answers these questions is more likely to know the answer and not even look at a group that has posting asking what secret agents wear. --Wonderley (talk) 02:40, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, the correct desk would have been Humanities, not Misc. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 05:54, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I vote for the entertainment desk; it's a question about a story. Anyway, I'm sorry but no one here seems to know the answer.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 16:36, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ID questions about stories and novels have traditionally been posted on the Humanities desk, to the best of my knowledge. Deor (talk) 04:42, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's by Floyd Dell, from his autobiography HOMECOMING. It is often excerpted and named "We're Poor." I used it my my creative writing class and it was given the title, "My Sixth Christmas." You can find the full excerpt on the web. Be prepared to cry; it made my students cry. Very poignant, memorable. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 173.56.4.37 (talk) 17:27, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

THANKS. Oh, I know about it being so moving. That's the only reason why I remember it. Thanks again. --Wonderley (talk) 20:09, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

AWESOME Story. Anyone seeing this might want to check it out. [2] --Wonderley (talk) 20:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

June 16

Hwyl - Welsh word

At Wiktionary, we have a 15-month old AFD discussion about the Welsh word hwyl, more specifically whether to delete the definition 5 "proselytizing". Are there any Welsh speakers here that could help out? At the moment our page looks like:

hwyl f (plural hwyliau)

mood
fun
"sing-song" trait traditionally considered to be possessed by the Welsh people, especially Nonconformist preachers
sail
proselytizing

Any help would be appreciated --Jackofclubs (talk) 06:01, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Would you appreciate help in finding Wikipedians who speak Welsh? -- Wavelength (talk) 17:14, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia talk:Welsh Wikipedians' notice board might be a good place to ask. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.171.56.13 (talk) 09:28, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I'll direct my question there --Jackofclubs (talk) 16:44, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Take a look at http://www.cymru.ac.uk/geiriadur/pdf/GPC0018-06.pdf, part of the Geiriadur Prifysgol Cymru, the definitive dictionary of the Welsh language. The definitions of hwyl are on page 358 of this pdf. Proselytzing is not one of the definitions. (9g is an indication of when a usage is first found - 9th century). -- Arwel Parry (talk) 19:45, 21 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

djinn = gene activator

The research that I have been undertaking is to link the action of the djinn - as both innate and external forces that act to activate / suppress gene activity. That is, they are the forces (potential energy realized) within and around us that act to switch on or off our genetic predelections - inherited patterns, suppressed or dormant, non active. If we look at the language sequence of jinn / djinn it may go like this: jann (meaning concealed, and from where majnun inferring madness {when we have switched on and dominated by aberrant psychological states}originated) - jinn (ignoring its genus' various variants: jinnati (m), jinniyah(f), malkuth(?), ifrit(m), ifreeta(f), marid etc) - genie - gene - genome - genetic - genius (tutelary spirit, Latin). Each name when I look for their origin appears to come from distinct and unique origins and are dispersed basically linear and I cannot realy find the bridge between djinn and gene; but scientific research clearly indicates that present understanding of suppressor and activator genes are switched on by our environment (after Dr Lipton) - whether cellular, extracellular or from our external environment - and that my own research and clinical experience is that there are 'forces' present within individuals which match the story of the djinn - which is very clear when you read between the lines the '1001 nights'. That is, the stories all recall heriditary, psychosomatic, addictive, psychological, and psychospiritual states - hidden underneath the folkloric tale of some alien nasty spirit (djinn) that is introduced, prompting strange behaviour. I am wanting to link the language up so that I can see whether there is indeed a link, a common theme. SolihinT (talk) 08:22, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Latin/Greek words you mentioned mainly come from an Indo-European root *GEN, with primary meanings "to give birth" (as a verb derivation) or "family" (as a noun derivation). This same root gave the English word kin. However, ancient peoples had no knowledge of modern scientific genetics (something which didn't really start to take shape until the late 19th century). There has apparently been some conflation or confusion in English between the Latin word genii "guardian spirits" and the Arabic word جني jinnī (the singular of jinn) — both contributing to the English word "genie" — but it seems dubious that the two words could be etymologically related... AnonMoos (talk) 12:46, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Simple sentence

This question has been removed. It duplicates a previously removed question: Wikipedia talk:Reference desk#Moved_from_page. -- Coneslayer (talk) 12:03, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's strange because I asked both questions and I certainly asked a completely different question here than I did before? ~ R.T.G 13:32, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sentence in Russian, correct?

Hello, can you please correct any mistakes in the following sentence in Russian:

Пойдемте со мной, давайте потерять наш взгляд вместе

It's supposed to mean "come with me, let's lose our minds together".

Thank you, or rather, спасибо! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 83.56.177.121 (talk) 17:16, 16 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm hopeless with Russian verbs of motion, but I'm not sure about Пойдемте. Maybe наш взгляд (= our appearance/look) should be наши уми (= our minds). -- JackofOz (talk) 01:47, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

IIRC 'Пойдемте' is a common but morphologically deviant construction formed by adding the 'polite (but 2nd person) 'те' onto the (1st person plural) 'Пойдём'. But the meaning is still 'Let's go', so I'm dubious whether 'со мной' is possible with it. And even if 'взгляд' is the right word, it seems odd that it should be in the singular. I'm not a fluent Russian speaker, though. --ColinFine (talk) 23:19, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Re 'со мной': Russian has some odd forms of expression. When someone wants to say "He and I <did something>", the standard way is not the literal "Он и я", but "Мы со мной", which literally means "We with me". On that basis, I wouldn't necessarily discount Пойдемте со мной. The sort of sense of it is "Let's you and I both come" = "Come with me". -- JackofOz (talk) 03:45, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Odd indeed: I'd expect 'we with him' (similar to a construction that I've seen in French). —Tamfang (talk) 00:44, 22 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

June 17

Meaning

What is "Timboism": [3]?174.3.103.39 (talk) 02:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

An old bit of vandalism from Sept. 7, 2007. I've switched it back to "Josephinism". Clarityfiend (talk) 03:03, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cunjevoi

I came across the word "cunjevoi" in my weekend reading, and it naturally excited my interest. I can't quite decide whether it's incredibly ugly or quite beautiful. Anyway, when I had a chance I decided to look it up. The text where I came across it was referring to it as a sea-squirt, but when I checked Wikipedia, it redirected me to a rainforest plant, Alocasia brisbanensis. How odd, I thought. So I googled it and discovered it refers to both a sea-squirt Pyura stolonifera, and to two species of plant of the Alocasia family, related to each other but obviously not to the sea-squirt. So, I removed the redirect and wrote a bit of stub about "cunjevoi".

I'm now wondering if there are any other words in English that can refer to living creatures from widely different parts of the biological world. Such as a bird and a plant with the same name, or a fish and an insect with the same name. That sort of thing. There are probably many examples, but I can't readily think of a single one other than cunjevoi. -- JackofOz (talk) 03:27, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Periwinkle. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:20, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Roach. -- Wavelength (talk) 04:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Marten and Martin (bird). -- Wavelength (talk) 04:43, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Weaver and Weever. -- Wavelength (talk) 05:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Pansy and Junonia. -- Wavelength (talk) 06:45, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Beetle and Betel. -- Wavelength (talk) 14:53, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Creeper. -- Wavelength (talk) 16:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Darter. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Glider (disambiguation)#Wildlife. -- Wavelength (talk) 17:05, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See List of animal names and sort by "Young". -- Wavelength (talk) 17:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OT: Cunjevoi could do with a pronunciation helper. Is the first syllable the same as in country? Is the last syllable the same as the first in voyage? Steewi (talk) 23:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly have no idea, Steewi. My gut feeling is exactly what you suggest, but since I've never heard the word pronounced, I could be wrong. -- JackofOz (talk) 09:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See Pink (disambiguation): in species. -- Wavelength (talk) 18:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You can try using Wikipedia:Category intersection with Category:Disambiguation and Category:Organisms.

-- Wavelength (talk) 18:33, 17 June 2009 (UTC) ------------ I have not done so. -- Wavelength (talk) 19:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also locust (disambiguation) --ColinFine (talk) 23:21, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The kiwifruit was named after the kiwi, but is commonly shortened to "kiwi" in at least some countries, so "kiwi" is now an example. --Anonymous, 05:17 UTC, June 18, 2009.

See Skipper. -- Wavelength (talk) 06:05, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, lots. Thanks, all. -- JackofOz (talk) 09:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@ Wavelength. Particular thanks for all the links you provided. Just on Wikipedia:Category intersection, though - it looks to me as if it's only ever been a proposal, not a feature that's ever been made available to editors. No? -- JackofOz (talk) 22:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are right. Apparently, it lacks even the functionality it had before. -- Wavelength (talk) 00:12, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

arabic sentence

" اكتب لالعربية بسبب...اريد ان ادرس اللغة العربية."

In English, if you'd be so kind? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.9.224.241 (talk) 03:34, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I write in arabic because... I want to learn the arabic language. Wrad (talk) 03:50, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ah. very good. Thank you! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 147.9.224.241 (talk) 03:51, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

喂

I was surprised to find that 喂 (ㄨㄟˋ) is officially listed in the dictionary as a fourth tone character, as almost everyone I have ever spoken to over the phone in Taiwan clearly pronounces it as ㄨㄟˊ. Does anyone else think that Chinese people generally use a rising tone when picking up the phone, or is it just me? Aas217 (talk) 04:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

nah, it ain't just you. Mct mht (talk) 06:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

喂, Wèi, is pronounced with the fourth tone in its primary meaning, which is somewhat equivalent to the English "Hey!", i.e. to catch a person's attention.

When answering the phone, most people tend to give it a rising inflection, reflecting the questioning nature of the speech, just as an English speaker would (often) say "hello?" with a rising tone when answering the phone. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 07:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I recently heard a young Asian woman in Hong Kong pronounce it most distinctively as 「why」. I have no idea what accent that might be. DOR (HK) (talk) 09:46, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does anyone even use that kind of Chinese spelling system (ie. "ㄨㄟˋ") anymore? It's been largely replaced by Pinyin as far as I know. ~A H 1^(TCU) 23:34, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Zhuyin is mainly used in Taiwan while pinyin is mainly used in China. F (talk) 05:20, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Agreed. In Taiwan, the replacement of Zhuyin by pinyin was hampered by political disagreement on which scheme of pinyin to use - though as of 2009 Hanyu pinyin has become mandatory and will, according to the government, gradually replace the previous systems.

To be noted, though, is that Zhuyin was always a Chinese-language gloss - to indicate the pronunciation, especially to students. It is not a romanisation and not an alternative script. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 11:38, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Line of speech

What is "Line of speech" —Preceding unsigned comment added by Kumarjeetsahela (talk • contribs) 07:20, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It would help to have some context, but this usually refers to one line of the script of a play, film, etc.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 07:29, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comma usage

Is the comma between 'histones' and 'which' supposed to be there?

HEP G2 cells were treated with compound 3 at a sub-toxic concentration 48, 24 or two hours before acid extraction of histones, which was timed to occur as cells reached ~70% confluence.

Thanks. ----Seans Potato Business 12:04, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's like My mother gave me the nickname "Johnny Boy," which really made me angry., which is an example in the comma article. Right? ----Seans Potato Business 12:06, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe it's a relative clause, so the comma's useful. Leave it out, and certainly in my mind it suggests that it is the acid extraction of histones at ~70% rather than the one that happened at ~35% or whatever, if you catch the distinction. Here are two similar (IMO) examples:

I caught the bus, which was the 93A
I caught the bus which was the 93A

In the first the bus you caught happened to be the 93a (it is the fact you caught the bus that is important); in the second, you catch the 93a bus, rather than the 70b or 66 or whatever. I believe teh word 'restrictive' might come into a proper English explanation, but I wouldn't like to comment. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 14:59, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

True, but not relevant to the question, because the construction is subtly different. The antecedent of 'which' is not 'the histones', or any other object mentioned in the previous clauses, but the (event referred to by) the whole clause. (Some people frown on this construction in formal writing). I don't think there's any way that it can be restrictive, so the comma is required.

Very often, a good test for whether a comma is needed is to read the sentence aloud (with the intended meaning if it is ambiguous), and see where you do pause, and what happens to the pitch of your voice just before. --ColinFine (talk) 23:31, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"The things you gave your life to"

In If—, some verses say:

If you can ...

watch the things you gave your life to, broken,

and stoop and build ’em up with worn-out tools;

What do "the things you gave your life to" exactly mean?

Your lifework, your achievements (fortune, fame, business...)?
Some higher ideal or community you were dedicated to (e. g. type of government, peace of your time, religious fold...)?

--KnightMove (talk) 13:56, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anything might describe as your 'life's work' is what I've always believed, be that wealth, fame, peace in the world, spiritual completeness etc. Kipling's means that if you can have everything that you've ever achieved wiped away, and do it all again without feeling bad, then you're a better man for it. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 14:52, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Secret Letter

Hello! Can anybody translate that secret letter on http://english.chosun.com/w21data/html/news/200802/200802210015.html into English, or better into German? Thank you very much! Doc Taxon (talk) 16:10, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

大德國大皇帝陛下：　　朕惟比來德韓交際日進、友誼日密，朕切喜，且望永遠有賴於貴邦扶助愛護。不意時局大變，強鄰之侵逼日甚，終至奪我外交權、損我自主政。朕洎舉國臣民無不慟憤欝悒，呼天泣血。茲將苦衷仰佈於陛下，萬望垂念交好之誼及扶弱之義，廣議於各友邦，設法保我獨立國勢。俾朕及全國臣民含恩頌德於萬世。是所切祝。　　　　　　　　　光武十年一月　日在慶運宮　　　　陛下之良兄弟　　　　（花押）皇帝御璽

Your Majesty the Kaiser of Germany:

It is my pleasure to write to you for the sake of improving German-Korean relations and establishing a closer friendship, and [I] hope [Korea} can always rely on the assistance and protection of your noble confederation. The unexpected shifts in the current state of affairs, with [our] stronger neighbor's invasive presence growing by the day, has resulted in the usurpation of our [ability] to conduct foreign affairs, and has damaged Korea's sovereignty. I, along with my ministers of state and the common people, are all overcome with utmost grief. As [I] relate this terrible events to your majesty, it is with unlimited hope I beseech you with the sincerity of [our] friendly relations and the virtue of aiding the weak, foment discussion amongst allies, and establish a ruling that will preserve Korea's independent status. I, along with my ministers and people, will praise your potency for countless generations.

With regards,

11th year of Guangwu in the Qingyun Palace (don't know how these are pronounced in Korean) Your Majesty's true brother (Hua Ya) Imperial Seal

Not the best translation, but I'm not able to throughly edit it at this point.

Aas217 (talk) 19:48, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would amend the first part (朕惟比來德韓交際日進、友誼日密，朕切喜) as: "We observe the relations between Germany and Korea becoming deeper by the day, our friendship becoming closer by the day; this pleases us."

And the latter part of the third alst sentence (設法保我獨立國勢) as: "find ways to preserve our independent status". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 22:22, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"All overcome with utmost grief" literally reads calling out to the heavens and weeping blood. F (talk) 05:34, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't it say the first month of the 10th year? The era name 光武 is romanised as Gwangmu and the palace 慶運宮 is Gyeongun-gung F (talk) 05:44, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

So much for the plead for help eh. The tone is arguably beneath a head of state. Kinda funny that the Korean emperor didn't use Korean and apparently was perfectly fluent in Chinese. Mct mht (talk) 03:22, 18 June 2009 (UTC) I would have translated 大德國大皇帝陛下 as 'Your Majesty The Emperor of Greater Germany'. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 06:43, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't completely agree. "大" is an honorific for any country or dynasty, and 德國 and 大德國 do not necessarily carry the same distinction as Germany and Greater Germany. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 07:28, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I do understand that, but given the time frame in which this letter seems to have been written, it would make sense. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 07:53, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with PalaceGuard, 大 here clearly is an honorific, used twice for parallelism in the address. Aas217 (talk) 11:39, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Do we know for sure that the writing is in Chinese and not Hanja? ~A H 1^(TCU) 23:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Doesn't matter, it translate the same anyway. F (talk) 05:34, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

U and V

Is it true that U and V are interchangeable in latin? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.90.144 (talk) 17:18, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

no, in part only! In old Latin scripts the "u" is written as "v", but not vice versa! Doc Taxon (talk) 17:36, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(e/c) The letter U did not exist in Latin at all. Only in the Middle Ages the original letter V split into U and V. — Emil J. 17:38, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, but in modern usage it's not usual to interchange them? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.90.144 (talk) 18:07, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's not that U and V are interchangeable, or one or the other letter didn't exist; they had an "oo" sound and a "w" sound, and used the same letter for both, since they didn't really distinguish between the uses of that letter as a consonant and as a vowel. There happened to be two ways of writing that letter, in various styles of Latin handwriting, throughout almost 2000 years. In English, and other languages, the two different shapes later became assigned to two different sounds, and another letter was invented for the "w" sound. Latin did not have a vee sound, although it's customary today to write the consonant as "v" and the vowel as "u", and to pronounce them the English way (unless you are overly pretentious). We have some small articles on Latin writing systems, Roman square capitals, rustic capitals, Roman cursive, etc. Adam Bishop (talk) 18:25, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ok thanks again, but I'm still not entirely clear. If a word, such as a name, is usually spelt ending with a "u", but in one instance is seen with a "v" instead of a "u", this is incorrect, right? I mean, in the very least that's not how it's spelt on the birth certificate. This is today I'm talking about btw, not ancient times —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.90.144 (talk) 18:54, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ps: I think I've confused things by saying "in latin" in my original question. What I meant was, the latin alphabet, but this is for modern day usage —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.43.90.144 (talk) 19:00, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Can you tell us the language or the country or both? -- Wavelength (talk) 19:08, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In Spanish, people will write things like "VNIVERSIDAD..." (instead of UNIVERSIDAD) in building inscriptions, to give the building a touch of resemblance to ancient monuments [of Classical times, whose inscriptions employed the Roman square capitals]. I guess the same can happen with English inscriptions. Pallida Mors 19:30, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, for example, there's the Hovse System at Caltech, where you will also find a building inscribed "DANIEL GVGGENHEIM GRADVATE SCHOOL OF AERONAVTICS", which I insisted on pronouncing with modern "V" sounds. -- Coneslayer (talk) 19:41, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, sure, that happens all the time. At the University of Toronto, the classics and medieval studies departments are in the old "HOVSEHOLD SCIENCES" building. (Across the street is the "ROYAL ONTARIO MVSEVM".) As for the original question, a name ending with a "u", but in one instance is seen with a "v"...well, we'd have to know what name and what language, I think. Adam Bishop (talk) 19:58, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Occasionally, a word differs from one language to another by only one letter (for example, Bulgarian lev, Romanian leu, Moldovan leu), and this might be such an instance. -- Wavelength (talk) 21:11, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know of a modern language where 'u' and 'v' are interchangeable (monumental inscriptions as mentioned above are deliberately non-standard) but there might be examples, particularly for names. I can think of some similar examples: there are towns in Germany which are written with 'j' where one would expect 'i'; and in Swedish 'w' (which is not normally used at all) is sometimes used as a variant of 'v' in names. --ColinFine (talk) 23:39, 17 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have searched through a book of given names and extracted the following pairs of names: Eugenia, Evgenia; Paula, Pavla; Aluin, Alvin; Eduard, Edvard. In each pair of names, the two spellings are variations (among others) of the same basic name. -- Wavelength (talk) 15:50, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside: trve meaning true, is used by some people. I think it's a 1337 death metal Germany kinda thing, but a WP search shows some old (mostly 1600s, 1 1800s) books/articles spell it like this. Aaadddaaammm (talk) 07:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not a Latin language, but in Pinyin for Mandarin, there is no letter "v". Instead, the letter that comes after u is ü. ~A H 1^(TCU) 23:26, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@Wavelength - but while 'Eugenia' and 'Evgenia' are obviously ultimately forms of the same name, in English they would be pronounced differently, and so regarded as different names. Do you know a language in which these pairs are synchronically regarded as the same name? --ColinFine (talk) 23:31, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I understand your question, I do not know such a language with certainty, although I suppose that Danish, Norwegian, and Swedish are possibilities. -- Wavelength (talk) 00:18, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To the best of my knowledge, Colin's answer would hold true for the Scandinavian languages as well. decltype (talk) 00:31, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

June 18

War Memorial Wording

On this War Memorial, the words say '[the soldiers] answered the call to defend a country they never knew and a people they never met'. Shouldn't it be 'defend a country they hadn't known and a people they had never met', because surely they must have met them at some point during the war? --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 06:24, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think it means 'never knew' and 'never met' at the time of answering the call, or at the time the call came.- KoolerStill (talk) 11:42, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Which is why the past perfect should have been used. Using the simple past would imply that these two things ('knowing' and 'meeting') never happened. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 12:59, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think people know how to use the pluperfect properly anymore. It's almost as misused as the subjunctive. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:01, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I partly disagree on the intended meaning here. I think it's supposed to mean they never knew at any point; that they never met the people or the country they were defending up to their death. Does seem rather ambiguous, but a site I found says this: ' [The inscription] also implies (possibly unconsciously on the part of those whoerected it) that the country over which the war was fought never did come to be known,nor its people to be met, in all the months and years in which American servicemen andwomen fought there.' I concur. Grandiose (me, talk, contribs) 14:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There's prologue and epilogue, but what about something in the middle?

In a book I'm writing, parts 3 and 4 are separated by a fictional essay written by one of the characters. It seems to serve the same function as a prologue or an epilogue, but I cannot find a term that means having one of these in the middle. What should I call it? --Ye Olde Luke (talk) 07:34, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Segue? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 07:41, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Interlude.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 11:54, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The OED has "metalogue" for "a speech delivered between the acts or scenes of a play." Adam Bishop (talk) 12:52, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

entr'acte. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:10, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OED help

I would greatly appreciate it if someone with access to the online OED would provide me with its complete definition for "behind the eight ball". I am trying to get the article kelly pool to FA status and besides thinking this would make a good reference, I want to see what it says about the origin, if anything. I suppose this should be emailed (my email is enabled) as it would be a copyvio to post it on site. Please also provide any attribution information for the eventual inline citation to be used. Thanks in advance.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 11:51, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Emailed. Algebraist 14:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Much appreciated! So no separate definition but it is mentioned in the definition for "eight ball" alone, with no origin described unfortunately. Oh well. It was worth a shot.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 14:48, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This [4] gives two possible origins for the expression. This repeats the first and more credible origin explanation.- KoolerStill (talk) 15:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hi Kooler. Thanks for the links. Just so you know, the first is not a reliable source and they changed their incorrect definition to include Kelly pool as the original after I emailed them to tell them they were wrong. They hedged their bets in response and state that there are two competing claims and they are still wrong (the game of 8-ball wasn't even invented in its current incarnation when the phrase was first being used!). Anyway, I have lots of reliable sources. I just thought the OED would be a good addition.--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 16:02, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know how old the phrase is, but I'm astonished to hear that it's older than the game of 8-ball since it fits so well with that game. How old do you think it is? A Google Books search doesn't seem to find any examples reliably* dated earlier than about 1930. What date did the OED Online have?

*Dates in Google Books, especially older dates, are not always reliable for several reasons: scanning errors; multiple books in a single binding; and, in the case of periodicals and other serials, they may show the date of the first issue rather than the date when the passage was found.

I did notice that the description in the first site cited by Kooler is wrong as regard the game of 8-ball, since it says the numbered balls must be potted (sunk) in order. --Anonymous, edited 04:12 UTC, June 19, 2009.

1944 letter which I assume is in German

Dear Sir/Madam,

Would anyone be kind enough to translate, or provide a resume about the content of the attached letter ? The Winrar archive is over 9mb since I didn't want to diminish the readability of the images. I thought about using Google Translate, but I can't decipher most of the words, since it is written in cursive.

Download link: [5]. Rachmaninov Khan (talk) 13:38, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can't access the file. My antivirus program notes that access to this file has been refused and warns that the website's content belongs to the undesired category "phishing". ---Sluzzelin talk 13:53, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This... is extremely hard to read :( At first I was wondering if it is at all German, since I couldn't make out many of the words, or thought I could read them, but they just weren't German at all, but when I got a bit used to the cursive, I could make out some words that are definitely German: for instance, here's a fragment of a sentence I could make out: "Auf jeden Fall kann mann den lieben Gott danken, daβ..." ("In any case, one can thank the dear Lord, that..."; tenth line from the bottom up). But try as I might, I can't make out most of the cursive... Maybe someone else here is more used to reading scribbly cursive. TomorrowTime (talk) 14:02, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My dear little Erna (this is the first name of the recipient of the letter, Miss Erna Straßburg in the vicinity of Bremen).

After a long time, a sign of life from me. Surely, you have been worried about me in the last few weeks., but, once more, I have been lucky. The 17th September must have been the bleakest day I have known in the last 5 years. Unfortunately, we have lost everything, apart from our naked life we could not save anything. Then we were deployed for some days as ???. I can tell you, this has been enough for us all. Unfortunately, as a result of the severe battles, our numbers have dwindeled. Many of the old comrades (a German war term for fellow soldiers) are not with us anymore. In any case, we must praise the Lord that he has spared us from hell. I will tell you more on my next holiday. We have been pulled back from the combat zone some days ago to give us a break. We have some private quartiers here. The area is rather ???. In addition, we had ??? for a treatment. These take the fatty (?) things along.

PS:the last three sentences do not make any sense to me.)--Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 18:00, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The last sentences are indeed very hard to make out; for Cockatoo's question marks, I'd read "felsig" (The area is rather rocky) and "Zivilisten" (In addition, we had civilians for treatment, or rather, In addition, civilians come in for treatment - "private quarters" seems to imply a medical facility). The last sentence has me completely stumped - it seems to say something about "die fetten Lehrer" (the fat teachers), but I cannot make out the rest of it. -- Ferkelparade π 18:29, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: For cockatoo's first question marks, I'd read "Infantristen", a variant spelling of "Infanteristen" (meaning, of course, Infantrymen) -- Ferkelparade π 18:32, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you, FP (was that you just sneezing, you snotty influential piglet ?). "Infantristen" looks spot on. "Felsig" I dont know, I had thought that the long s was dumped in the orthographic reform of 1901, but a quick check on Sütterlin script (which this is nor really), has it still surviving until 1941. On the other hand, Mr Müller does not use a long "s" anywhere else in the letter. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 19:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Sütterlin, huh? Didn't know about that script. This also explains why I had such a hard time making it out, many of the letters seem rather-to-fairly different from the regular cursive I'm familiar with... TomorrowTime (talk) 14:14, 19 June 2009 (UTC) [reply]

Can't access the file either, but based on Cokatoo"s description could it be "die fetten Leder" There is a saying "jemand über das fette Leder ziehen" or "das fette Leder abziehen" no idea if that would make any sense here. "Die fetten Leiber" might look similar, too. 68.208.122.33 (talk) 20:35, 18 June 2009 (UTC) You might also be interested in the fact that "kleine Erna" might not be a reference to the person being short or a child, but rather have something to do with a kind of joke popular in Northern Germany de:Klein_Erna. I would say the phrases read "Die Gegend ist reichlich fettig. Zumal wir auch Zivilisten zur Behandlung haben. Die bringen denn so die fetten Sachen mit." The area is quite greasy/rich. In particular since we have civilians coming in for treatment. They then bring in those greasy things. (Considering that this was written during the war our idea of "greasy" doesn't adequately translate what he likely meant.) 68.208.122.33 (talk) 23:04, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wow, I'm impressed by the Wikipedia reference desks as always. ;)

I found out that flickr accepts large files for those that couldn't access the .rar archive. Rachmaninov Khan (talk) 01:41, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

http://www.flickr.com/photos/39673422@N08/3640286512/sizes/l/ —Preceding unsigned comment added by Rachmaninov Khan (talk • contribs) 01:40, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

IPA help

Only just notice on Lea, Lancashire the point that the IPA for "Lea" may not be right. So to make sure it is, can I ask for guidance? "Lea" is pronounced to rhyme with "fear" or "dear", with what I assume(d) to be schwa at the end but am open to correction. Cheers. doktorb _words^deeds 19:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The conventional IPA for the British English "Recieved Pronunciation" of the words "leer" or (King) "Lear" would indeed be ˈlɪə. However, of course many other dialects of English don't have an ɪə diphthong at all, and usually British monosyllabic ɪə corresponds to a vowel followed by an "r" sound in those rhotic dialects, but the spelling of Lea would seem to indicate otherwise, which can perhaps be considered a little odd... AnonMoos (talk) 01:07, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers for this. I will be best keeping it as the article then. doktorb _words^deeds 18:51, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The person who added the questioning note probably wonders why the word is not spelled with "r" if the pronunciation is as indicated... AnonMoos (talk) 22:09, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This might be helpful: Category:Requests for audio pronunciation (WP:O). -- Wavelength (talk) 20:11, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wording for a copyedit

I'm currently copyediting [this] article, and I wonder about the wording here:

Many advocates of using these tools believe (and actively argue or assume) that they create actual communities, and have adopted the term "online communities" to describe the resulting social structures.

If they actively argue or assume, surely they believe? Should I change it to Many advocates actively argue or assume or will that change the meaning? I would ask on the articles' talk page, but it seems dead. Mxvxnyxvxn (talk) 21:40, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How can you actively assume? (That is to say, there's a parsing problem here). And what's the difference between that and "believe"? The ordering seems confused.

"Assume" is more passive than "believe", which is more passive than "argue". I would phrase it as "assume, even actively argue". --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:12, 18 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. Mxvxnyxvxn (talk) 02:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

June 19

Cat burglar

Where does the "cat" in the term "cat burglar" come from? Dismas|^(talk) 04:51, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here you go: [6], [7] & [8].--Fuhghettaboutit (talk) 04:56, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks! Dismas|^(talk) 06:00, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Relative pronoun "that"

I've always been interested in the "optionality" of "that" as a relative pronoun. The linked article gives the example: "This is the house that Jack built". There is something about each sentence structure, in written or spoken word, that makes it more or less likely [that] "that" will be omitted. I might speak "this is the house Jack built", but I wouldn't write it formally. Yet even in formal writing, "that" is often implied, and indeed, writing that always uses "that" where it is strictly required can come off as a bit artificial. When I see a sentence like "Marcy suggested Soulé confer with Buchanan ... on how best to acquire Cuba from Spain" in Ostend Manifesto, my intuitive-grammatical guts churn and I want to add "that". Depending on the sentence, it is an important cue or disambiguation device: here we might otherwise expect a structure like "Marcy suggested Soulé to Buchanan", because "that" is omitted. So my questions are: where can I find a treatment of this topic? Is it always better writing to explicitly use "that"? (The post ["that"--exclusion fairly natural] you've been reading has been posted to a reference desk ["that"--exclusion ugly] this user has had watchlisted for some time.) Thanks, Outriggr (talk) 08:19, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I notice "Marcy suggested that..." isn't a relative pronoun use of the word, because it doesn't refer to a noun. (In the other examples, the nouns are "house", "post", and "reference desk".) This doesn't seem to matter to your question, I'm just mentioning it because I had a look in a book I've got called The Loom of Language and this distinction (conjunction rather than relative pronoun) was all I could come up with. I thought it might be a fruitful search because the book is generally about the value or otherwise of terseness, but no. 213.122.8.253 (talk) 23:16, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This appears to be a bibliography on the subject. I haven't investigated whether any of the references are available online. --ColinFine (talk) 23:16, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Help with Korean-to-English translation

I'm hoping that somebody who can read Korean can perform the following for me: Go to this main page for the Korean Central News Agency, then change the date at the top so you can access headlines from May 8, 2009, and let me know if any of those stories refer to the men's lifestyle website AskMen.com, and, if so, which one and in a nutshell, what it says. I've tried running the headlines through a translator with little luck. Any help is appreciated. Wolfgangus (talk) 08:32, 19 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

June 20

Produce vs Product, noun

When is produce, n, to be used rather than product? I understand a lot of agricultural products are commonly called produce. Is there any better way to limit the use of these two to different places? 90.149.144.31 (talk) 02:35, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know, but the use of "product" as a mass noun when a simple plural would do makes me want to tear my hair out. "We're expecting a shipment of pork product (= products) this afternoon" - that sort of thing. -- JackofOz (talk) 06:55, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To produce means to bring forth or yield (a result). So "produce" is usually used for farm products, because they were "brought forth" by natural processes. Product is more commonly used for things produced by human or mechanical effort (and also for natural processes such as the products of chemical reactions).

In the pork example? pork is a farm produce. Pork products are manufactured or processed, eg ham, bacon, salami etc. Expecting a shipment of pork productsplural implies a shipment of mixed varieties. A shipment of pork product singular/mass noun implies a shipment of manufactured or processed items of pork origins, variety unknown. Neither strictly speaking can refer to a shipment of pork meat, unprocessed except by butchering. (To confuse the issue, the word variety as in variety meats refers to offal, ie all non-flesh meats, such as tongue, liver etc).- KoolerStill (talk) 07:33, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with Kooler as to the distinction between mass noun "product" and plural "products", but I would not say that "produce" could apply to pork. I know the term only in connection with the produce department of supermarkets, and meat is sold from a different department. I would say that "produce" is limited to parts of plants (i.e. fruits, vegetables, roots, berries, etc.) sold as food in an unprocessed state (i.e. not cooked, canned, dried, etc.). --Anonymous, 22:40 UTC, June 20/09.

IPA question II

Another one for you - the article for Hall i' th' Wood railway station has an IPA guide but probably needs double checking. For those not aware with northern English pronounciation, it is approximately "AL [as in Al Gore] i thwood". Many thanks doktorb _words^deeds 09:47, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If the final vowel is supposed to be the vowel of 'wood', it should be /ʊ/, not /ʌ/. Algebraist 10:56, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not sure 'AL as in Al Gore' is anything like the usual pronunciation. Many northerners don't drop their Hs, for a start. I'm also not sure that anyone would pronounce the "th'" element with a thorn or eth sound; I've usually heard it rendered as a glottal stop or a tounge-tapping 't' sound. AlexTiefling (talk) 11:50, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

/ʌ/ does not exist in any dialect of Northern English that I know of (and nor does /ʊ/, both being replaced by /u/). I don't call myself an expert, butI am from the North and have lived/worked extensively from Merseyside in the west right up to North Yorkshire in the east. Thorn and edh are common in Lancashire and Yorkshire, but not in Merseyside (the dialect of which extends into Lancashire, Cheshire, North Wales, and the Isle Of Man), where they are usually replaced by 't' and 'd' respectively. Glottal stops, however, are common in all of the areas above. Considering Hall i' th' Wood is near Bolton (Greater Manchester?) I would guess the 'th' are pronounced fully, but whether they are voiced or not, I couldn't say. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 14:06, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The name of the station will be pronounced in the way the speaker pronounces it with reference to their regional and social class accent. The Queen would probably pronounce it rather differently from the postman who delivers the letters to the station. It is an inherent problem in the inclusion of IPA guides unless it is understood the the IPA pronunciation is, for example, RSE. Perhaps it would be more interesting if all place names did have an IPA guide in the local accent. Ba'ersea, Too'in' in London. Debn and Zummerzet in the south-west, and so on. Richard Avery (talk) 14:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Exactly. Local places are pronounced with local accents, and some of these local places are so obscure they may only be pronounced by an RP-speaker once a year (when the elections come round). Maybe we could add both, one written for RP-speakers as a guide, and one written by locals. --KageTora - (영호 (影虎)) (talk) 15:07, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

true official name of the barcode system

The barcodes on packages that have the different arrangement of vertical lines and below them numbers. Is there another name for that system and if so what is it? 69.113.130.180 (talk) 11:38, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For the ones used on retail packaging in the United States and Canada, see Universal Product Code. For other uses and countries, see Barcode#Linear barcodes and the articles linked therein. Deor (talk) 11:57, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Conciencia fiscal - what is it in English?

Hello there:

I was wondering if anyone could translate the phrase 'conciencia fiscal.' I can't find it in any of my dictionaries.

All the best --134.151.34.100 (talk) 17:14, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If any context is needed - it seems to be more about individuals and taxes than governments. The author also says that the task of measuring 'conciencia fiscal' is difficult because, to translate, 'it involves trying to measure an activity that continues to be secret, given its undoutable illicitness.' But then it later says 'by conciencia fiscal we understand that it is the intrinsic motivation of an individual to pay his/her taxes.'

All the best--134.151.34.100 (talk) 17:53, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What language is it in? AlexTiefling (talk) 19:38, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Spanish --134.151.34.100 (talk) 19:40, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My first guess would be "fiscal conscience", a phrase that gets about 800 googlehits. +An gr 19:43, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Fiscal awareness" wins the business buzzword contest hands down :-)68.208.122.33 (talk) 23:06, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Eulsa Treaty

Hello! Can anybody translate the table "조약 전문" on [9]? Yes, I know, it is a lot of stuff, but I need the translation for recherches on Eulsa Treaty. And is anything about signing or sealing of the treaty stated in the discussion on this site? Thank you, very much. Doc Taxon (talk) 19:02, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Arabic

When writing the article on the Arabic Toilers' Movement, I stumbled across some problems. Could anyone help me properly explaining the meaning of وبعد ١٨ نوفمبر ١٩٦٣ بدأت الحركة الكادحين العرب بالنشاط العني وتم لها الأتصال بلجنة تنظيم القطر و كذلك بالدكتور جورج حبش. وذهبت الحركة الكادحين العرب إلى التعاون مع الاتحاد العربي الاشتراكي عام ١٩٦٤، وقد رشح مسؤول الحركة عبد الاله البياتي نفسه إلى عضوية الاتحاد العربي الاشتراكي.

I think I know more or less the meaning, but can't understand exactly what Abdul Ilah al-Bayati did (did he join the ASU, leaving the other movement? --Soman (talk) 19:41, 20 June 2009 (UTC)[reply]