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October 28

Welsh language

last week i made a journey to Swansea onto Llandovery. my schoolboy memory told me to say the double l as an 'f' which was markedly corrected by the station master as 'l'. the station Swansea was in south Wales about 80 miles south of Llandovery. The town itself had a Welsh spelling i could not pronounce. Is the pronunciation dependent upon region or its Welsh spelling? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slimeylimey09 (talk • contribs) 17:11, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Welsh double l is neither the /f/ sound nor the /l/ sound, so both you and the station master were wrong. It's a voiceless alveolar lateral fricative, and an audio file of the sound can be found in that article. Here is a blog entry by phonetician John C. Wells describing how he would teach people to make the sound; it's worth a read. (It occurs to me, however, that the station master was right in a sense: Llandovery is the English name of the town, not the Welsh name – which is Llanymddyfri – and the English name of course uses only sounds found in English, so it begins with the usual English /l/ sound.) +An gr 17:47, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

i half understand that it is an effortless use of my voice to pronounce the 'll' sound and to relate the 'single phonetic segment' is like relating Beethoven or the Beatles to a sheet of music(my analogy). However i am still left with the original query of saying the original spelling of the town without incurring the wrath of the native Welsh —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.234.72 (talk) 19:28, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not quite sure what you are asking. 'Llandovery' is an English attempt to approximate the sound of the Welsh name llanymddyfri, but it's not very close to it - in particular it omits a syllable. If you're wanting an indication of how to pronounce the Welsh, it would be /ɬanəm'ðəvri/, or in non-IPA terms 'llan-um-THE-vree' where the 'll' is as described by Angr above, 'um' is like - um - you know, 'the' is just like the English word 'the' when it isn't stressed (i.e. not like 'thee') - though it is the stressed syllable in this Welsh name. If that helps. --ColinFine (talk) 22:38, 28 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It seems here are two issues. First, the issue whether the 'l' can be a different consonant. In a language analogy, the answer seems, yes; 'l' (a lateral consonant) is usually affected by adjacent vowels (i.e. as a lateral approximants or even for something else). However, a segment of 'l' (double ‘l’) remains as a single phoneme 'l' and is usually a 'clear l' at a word initial (as an alveolar lateral fricative). To the second issue, the answer is again, yes. That is, the sound of “l” can still be varied based on adjacent vowels if the vowels are back vowels (or pronounced as such). In such case, the 'l' is 'dark' (a velarised alveolar lateral fricative). In Welsh, these phenomena seem like the same. Is this correct?--Mihkaw napéw (talk) 03:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

that is getting me there, thank you. listening to the sound bite the phonetic segment sounds like'Ahhh' which is similar to the 'l' in belt. the final question is the acceptable use or not of the English of the town llanymddyfri, and whether to use the English pronunciation when talking to the station master. thanks.Slimeylimey09 (talk) 07:07, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding Mihkaw napéw's comments, the Welsh 'll', pronounced [ɬ], is certainly a different phoneme from the 'l'. Acoustically, it's clearly a fricative, so much so that speakers of languages that don't have the phoneme always use fricatives or fricative and lateral combinations to approximate it. One should not confuse it with the issue of a velarized (i.e. 'dark') 'l', which has a similar symbol, [ɫ]. Most varieties of English use both 'clear l' and 'dark l' sounds, but they are the same phoneme pronounced in different environments. Welsh 'l' and 'll' are distinct phonemes, where the former corresponds to the sound in English and the latter is non-existent in English and most languages.

By the way, the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary lists [læn'dʌv(ə)ɹi] as the pronunciation of the English name 'Llandovery', with an optional pronunciation where the [l] is pronounced [ɬ]. Since [ɬ] is not a native phoneme in English, however, this latter advice strikes me as odd, much like pronouncing 'Munich' with a German [ç] or [x] when 'Munich' is itself the English version of 'München' and shouldn't be pronounced with foreign sounds anyway. So my advice is, pronounce the English name 'Llandovery' as in English and the Welsh name 'Llanymddyfri' as in Welsh, to the best of your ability. --Iceager (talk) 08:46, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I imagine a fair proportion of the people who are likely to talk about Llandovery on a daily basis have no difficulty in producing a [ɬ], and are accustomed to doing so in other town names that begin with Llan- where there is no English name distinct from the Welsh name (Llandeilo, Llandudno, Llandysul, Llanelli, Llanfair Caereinion, Llanfairfechan, Llanfyllin, Llangefni, Llangollen, Llanidloes, Llanrwst, Llantrisant, Llanybydder, etc.). I bet for a lot of people in Wales, using [ɬ] in Llandovery seems perfectly normal, even though it isn't the Welsh form of the town's name. +An gr 10:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I agree - use the Welsh pronunciation of "ll" or you'll start upsetting people. Alansplodge (talk) 02:58, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

October 29

"Cntr + Alt + Del situation"

Is "Cntr + Alt + Del" also used as idiom or something like that? I have recent found in a magazine a term called "Cntr + Alt + Del situation". What is the meaning of "Cntr + Alt + Del situation"? --Waterrocket (talk) 04:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On Windows PCs, Ctrl+Alt+Del is the combination of keystrokes you use to get out of the (frequent) situation when a piece of software hangs up on you and won't respond. So I guess it could be used in a metaphorical sense to mean a situation where you're not getting anywhere and need to get out of it, or something like that. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 06:14, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

We have an article on it. F (talk) 09:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have found the ref. Here it is [1]. The paragraph is:

Indian firms expanded capacity, market footprint, acquired firms in high-cost regimes, increased exports as a component of the sales and profit, salaries and wages rocketed and there was an opportunity for every stakeholder at seemingly no risk. All and sundry began to think of themselves as world-beaters. Now that they have been beaten by the world it is time to reset the approach to avoid a Ctrl-Alt-Del situation.

What does "Now that they have been beaten by the world it is time to reset the approach to avoid a Ctrl-Alt-Del situation" mean here? --Waterrocket (talk) 11:22, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I suppose it means "to avoid having to scrap everything and start over again from scratch". +An gr 11:25, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ctrl-Alt-Delete (on Dos/Windows at least) is a soft reboot. Given that the term reboot has now been applied to a number of non-computer contexts to metaphorically refer to "starting anew", that interpretation is likely correct. -- 128.104.112.149 (talk) 22:52, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Short latin phrase

How would one say "I still believe [an idea]" in Latin? Thanks, --S.dedalus (talk) 06:30, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

credo , i believe (!?) is the verb. the conjugation i forget —Preceding unsigned comment added by Slimeylimey09 (talk • contribs) 07:11, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Credo is correct for "I believe". For "still", it depends whether you mean "I continue to believe in spite of opposition; I believe nevertheless" or "I started believing in the past and continue to believe now". The former is Tamen credo; the latter is Adhuc credo or more emphatically Etiam credo. +An gr 07:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Tamen is I believe normally placed second in the sentence, so Credo tamen might be a better order. --rossb (talk)

Hmm, my Latin grammar says it is "often postpositive", which suggests that at least as often, it isn't. +An gr 07:58, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I thought postpositive meant that it was second in the sentence? Falconus^{p t c} 11:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It does; my point is that my grammar books says tamen is only often postpositive, not always postpositive. +An gr 11:52, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Lofty Latin

"Quidquid latine dictum sit altum viditur" or "Quidquid latine dictum sit altum videtur." Which is correct, or are both wrong? SDY (talk) 08:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Videtur. +An gr 10:28, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, thanks. I originally learned it the other way, started seeing variants, and wasn't real sure. SDY (talk) 11:24, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This goes beyond what was originally asked, but what is the source of this quotation? Surely not Classical, with its odd mix of moods (should be either sit ... videatur or, better, est ... videtur), and the fact that 'dictum sit' is used instead of 'dicitur' or 'dicatur'?Maid Marion (talk) 16:49, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think the mix of moods is a problem, it's "whatever may be said (subjunctive) in Latin seems (indicative) lofty". But you're right about dictum sit rather than dicatur, and I have my doubts about altum meaning lofty in the metaphorical sense. +An gr 16:56, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't have any reference books by me, but altum 'feels' fine to me in the sense of lofty or elevated. However, despite the title of the original question, I don't think that is what it is intended to mean in this strange quotation - I would guess that whoever cobbled these words together probably intended 'profound'. Maid Marion (talk) 17:03, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've always heard it translated as "profound". --Tango (talk) 17:37, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Oxford Latin Dictionary includes among the definitions of altus: "Rising above the common level, high, elevated, noble" and "Of deep wisdom, penetrating, profound". So that part's okay. And if we translate it "Whatever has been said in Latin" rather than "Whatever is said", then the tense of dictum sit is okay too. +An gr 19:59, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FWLIW: A cursory Google search for all but the last word leads to a recent rash of unsourced blog entries, but also a BBC citation (probably word-play) as: "Quidquid latine dictum sit, altum sonatur. Or 'Whatever is said in Latin sounds profound.' " http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A218882 —— Shakescene (talk) 21:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

(undent) I mostly tend to translate "altum" as lofty since that's the way the root is used in English (q.v. altitude), whereas "profound" usually implies metaphorical depth. The entire point of the statement is that dropping these random pithy sayings of Latin tends to be done for fairly shallow reasons, so saying that it sounds profound may be misleading. The statement (obviously) isn't mine, so who knows what the originator was thinking. SDY (talk) 00:05, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I thought it came from Erasmus, but I have no evidence for that. (Nor does Google.) Adam Bishop (talk) 13:46, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

voiceless postalveolar fricative /ʃ/ in the Piedmontese language

So our article on the Piedmontese language states:

Some of the most relevant characteristics of the Piedmontese language are: [...] 6. The absence of the voiceless postalveolar fricative /ʃ/ (as in sheep), for which an alveolar S sound (as in sun) is usually substituted. [...]

Whereas our article on the Lamborghini Countach says that "countach" is pronounced [kunˈtɑʃ] in the Piedmontese language (note the presence of the /ʃ/ sound). So, where's the error? Thanks! --Belchman (talk) 15:31, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know the etymology of "countach", but perhaps what the first article is trying to say is that where /S/ occurs in Italian (where it mostly comes from /sk/ + front vowel in Latin), Piedmontese has /s/ (e.g. the word for "science" starts with /S/ in Italian but - if my hypothesis is correct - /s/ in Piedmontese); Piedmontese might still have /S/ from other sources (such as loanwords from French?). +An gr 17:08, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I guess you're right. Thanks. --Belchman (talk) 18:42, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

is Piedmont not Italian, and sheep and sun English words? how can you make a comparison in their pronunciation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 91.125.0.125 (talk) 18:40, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The consonants are the same, that's how. Marco polo (talk) 22:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As the phonations of Latin alphabet also slightly differ in languages, i think we have to see the IPA of the language first in order to know whether the phonetic transcription is correct. However, this alone cannot solve the problems.

For example, names like Holstein and Rothstein represent as /hɔlʃtain/ and /rɒθstain/ in the IPA accordingly, though the IPA /ʃ/ is the phoneme of ‘sh’ in the phonetic transcription. However, as to their environment, the IPA of both cases seem correct, i.e. the grapheme ‘s’ follows a back vowel and possibly a dark ‘l’ on the first case whereas the latter is an interdental fricatives.

That is, depending on the environment, a substitution of /s/ for voiceless postalveolar fricative /ʃ/ or vise versa is possible. On the transcription of /ʃ/ in [kunˈtɑʃ], it does not seem correct as to its environment (an affricatives?). Nevill Fernando (talk) 02:59, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Where do you get those transcriptions for 'Holstein' and 'Rothstein'. Since you write 'θ', you are presumably referring to the English pronunciations rather than German ones: I would say that 's' and 'ʃ' are in variation in English for both those words, depending partly on how familiar the speaker is with German. --ColinFine (talk) 08:20, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ares I-X

How is "Ares I-X" pronounced? I don't watch TV and the radio hasn't mentioned the flight yet, so I haven't heard it spoken. Is it "air-eez i eks"? No IPA, please. Dismas|^(talk) 17:29, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would pronounce it "Ares One Eks". --Tango (talk) 17:39, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's how I've been pronouncing it in my head but if I get into a conversation about it, I'd rather not sound silly by using some other pronunciation when the other person has probably heard it in the news broadcasts. So, how do they say it on the news? Dismas|^(talk) 19:21, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You can probably find out by listening to "America's Rockets (SD Podcast)" at feed://streaming.msfc.nasa.gov/podcast/ares/ARES_SD.xml.

-- Wavelength (talk) 19:48, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

BTW, it's "Ah-rees", not "Air-rees" - it's from the Greek name for Mars, not from the constellation. Grutness...wha? 21:54, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I for one have always pronounced the Greek god's name as "Air-ease", never "R-ease". +An gr 22:01, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Ah-rees" is probably technically correct, but "air-eez" would be the typical American pronunciation, at least. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:57, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Our article, Ares, says that in Modern Greek it is pronounced [ˈaris], that is a short 'a' (as in cat) and the 's' isn't voiced (ie. it's an 's' sound not a 'z' sound). That is nothing like how I would have pronounced it (which would have been roughly the same as the constellation), but we live and learn! --Tango (talk) 01:17, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see any reason to follow the Modern Greek pronunciation...the name "Ares" was probably imported into English (or at least intermediate languages like Latin) before Modern Greek as it exists now was around anyway. Going by the Ancient Greek pronunciation makes a little more sense, but I feel like a word like "Ares" has been around long enough in English that the standard English pronunciation can be considered "correct." -Elmer Clark (talk) 05:31, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How would one distinguish between Ares and Aries (the Ram/constellation/astronomical/astrological term)? -- JackofOz (talk) 10:01, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

By spelling them out: They're normally homonyms. Though in conservative RP, "Aries" has three syllables ("AIR-i-eez"). (And yes, "Ares" as the god of war has long been assimilated into English.) kwami (talk) 10:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is all intriguing, and possibly another case of US English being different from the rest of the world's. I asked my partner (an astrophysics grad) how "Ares" was pronounced, and she said that she'd 'rarely heard anyone call it anything other than "Ah-rees", though some US sources use "Air-rees"'. She also pointed out that the star name Antares is frequently (but not universally, if you'll pardon the accidental pun) given the same pronunciation ("An-tah-rees") because the star's name means "opposed to Mars" Grutness...wha? 04:38, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

For this and probably most "how do you pronounce this?" questions, one site I have found to be useful is http://howjsay.com/ . Make sure your computer has speakers. 20.137.18.50 (talk) 16:19, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My old Webster's (ca. 1960) gives the preferred with the "a" rhyming with the a in "ale", and the secondary as the "a" rhyming with the a in "care", which makes things interesting given that east coasters stretch that particular "a" out a bit while midwesterners would make it sound like a short "e". One thing I was suprised is that I thought "Aries", the ram, was a homophone. But my old book says it's "A-ri-ez", and incidentally with the same two alternative pronunciations fo the "a" as with "Ares". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:26, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sure the original pronunciation of Aries had 3 syllables, but I've never heard anyone give it more than 2. -- JackofOz (talk) 01:21, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The audio recording at http://ia331428.us.archive.org/0/items/AresQuarterlyProgressReport7/QPR7_512kb.mp4 (about 5 minutes 15 seconds)

uses the pronunciation [ˈɛriz wʌn ɛks] at about 0:55 and at about 2:10. -- Wavelength (talk) 02:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kara

my wife has asked this question. she would like to know the correct pronunciation of her name Kara, in both Gaelic and English. her ancestry is American Irish, as in Kara Kennedy as in the daughter of the late Ted Kennedy( not a blood-line but similar nationality). In England invariably pronounced as in car-rah, but in America car(rot)a(spoken soft and shortly). the name has various origins including Russian and Vietanmese. what would be the Gaelic? though i will always call her by what she knows and what i've learned to say. thanks--Slimeylimey09 (talk) 19:02, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cara in Irish Gaelic means "friend" but as far as I know it's never used as a name. It's a masculine noun anyway, so it definitely has nothing to do with the woman's name Kara. The "a" is pronounced about halfway between the "a" of "car" and the "a" of "cat". +An gr 19:55, 29 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I thought of former actress Cara Williams, although that was a stage name. In any case, she pronounced it "care-uh". "caa-ruh" would be more like the east coast pronunciation. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Kara in some Slavic languages means "black". There was the Karageorge dynasty in Yugoslavia. That was pronounced "kah-rah". -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 01:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Except that those Slavic languages don't actually use it, and in compounds it was borrowed from... see tr:Kara. No such user (talk) 08:11, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A possible endonym is /Kɶrə/ or /Kaːrə/.

Alternatives are: /Kaːraː/ or /Kɶraː/. Is this correct? --Mihkaw napéw (talk) 04:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

in latin cara means dear one . Kara is also a derivative of Catherine. In Vietnamese Kara means friend. The accent is from New Jersey on the East Coast of the U.S.--91.125.80.207 (talk) 06:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In what universe is kara, rather than bạn, the Vietnamese word for "friend"? 92.226.37.208 (talk) 07:16, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In a parallel universe you don't live in. It's just the meaning not the actual word for. As my toddler would say "Bleh"--91.125.80.207 (talk) 07:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC) Kara[reply]

First name origins & meanings:

Latin: Dear Irish: Friend Italian: Beloved one Vietnamese: Precious Diamond or Dear Friend Greek: Pure Greek: Pure First name variations: Carah, Caralie, Careen, Canna, Carine, Carita, Carra, Karra, Caragh, Caera, Cara, Karan, Karen, Karyn, Kasia, Katja, Kasen, Kassia, Katoka, Katrien, Kaysa, Katarina, Katharine, Kate, Kathryn, Kathreen, Katheryn, Katrin, Kathy, Katie, Kate, Katina, Katrina, Karen, Karin, Karyn, Karan, Karon, Kari, Karrie, Karry, Karina, Caren, Carin, Caryn, Cari, Carrie, Carry, Cara, Katherine

Last name origins & meanings:

Indian (Gujarat): Hindu (Bhatia) name of unknown meaning. Polish: nickname from karać ‘to punish’. Czech, Slovak, and Hungarian: from a pet form of a personal name: Czech Karel, Slovak Karol, Hungarian Károly, vernacular forms of Carolus (see Charles). Czech: metonymic occupational name for a carter, from kára ‘hand cart’. Greek: see Caras. --Cookie8590 (talk) 08:06, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Did you get that from a first-name etymology or baby-name book (or website)? They always seem to copy each other's lists without attribution, and egregious errors are repeated as fact. Adam Bishop (talk) 13:44, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As for Slavic languages, in Polish kara has several meanings. One is "punishment". Another is the feminine form of the adjective "black" but only in reference to a horse. It might be also the plural of karo, or diamonds (a suit of cards). It is never used as a personal name though. The only person of this name I ever heard of was the Turkish army general, Kara Mustafa. — Kpalion^(talk) 18:15, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wonder if your wife predates the 1971 hit record "Kara, Kara" by Australian pop group New World. That was certainly pronounced "car-rah". Lyrics here[2]. Sorry - impudent question - a lady never tells! Interestingly, there was a small Australian warship called HMAS Kara Kara in WW2[3]. Perhaps it's a place name? Alansplodge (talk) 02:45, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The things one reads on the Ref Desk. Yes, it was a place name - see County of Kara Kara, Shire of Kara Kara and Electoral district of Kara Kara and Borung. "Kara Kara" apparently means Gold Quartz in the local indigenous language. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:47, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Is there even such a word as "kara" in Vietnamese? --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 23:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks but no one here really answered my question. I really could care less as to whether my name exists in Vietnamese or Polish. It is a name and whether or not it is a word in a specific language doesn't mean that someone from that country can't name a child by it. I actually got more information from those so called Baby Names websites when I did my own research. Geesh, and you call yourselves linguists. LOL! --80.189.132.211 (talk) 18:44, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That deserves a comeback. You partly answered your own question in your question itself. It's usually pronounced a certain way in England, and a different way in the USA. That shows that there is no one "correct" way to pronounce it in "English", because "English" means different things to different people. And when it comes to personal names, how the owner of a name pronounces it themself is ipso facto the correct way to pronounce their name, regardless of how other people with the same name pronounce theirs. Angr's answer, the very first one, was about the best you're going to get about the Gaelic pronunciation. We're all volunteers here, and not necessarily professional linguists, just people with a passion for language and some reasonable amounts of knowledge, which we're more than happy to share. We have never claimed to be experts. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:21, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

October 30

How does Admiral Masorin's name translate and is it Ukrainian?

How does Admiral Masorin's name translate and is it Ukrainian? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 204.210.114.164 (talk) 01:58, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Seeing as he's born far away from Ukraine and the article doesn't mention any Ukrainian heritage I would think it's not. Rimush (talk) 10:52, 30 October 2009 (UTC) Was it from Germany?[reply]

Pronunciation of Ernestine

In the book I am reading there is a woman called Ernestine. Now I'd like to know how to pronounce that name. In my dictionary I couldn't find it. I found the pronunciation of Caroline, of Katharine and of Josephine–but that did not help me, because, according to my dictionary, Caroline rhymes with fine, Katharine rhymes with in and Josephine rhymes with seen. If there are different pronunciations of Ernestine in different countries, I’d like to know the British pronunciation, because the story is set in England. -- Irene1949 (talk) 11:02, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd be very surprised if it were not pronounced er-nəst-EEN. (Although, I suppose if one pron of Augustine is ə-GUS-tən, then Ernestine could be er-NES-tən. No, probably not.) -- JackofOz (talk) 11:16, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

They're not the most scientific places, but the baby-name sites seem to agree that it rhymes with seen, though they differ on whether the primary stress is on the first or last syllable (apparently it's from German, which doesn't help too much). Does anyone know an authoritative baby-name site? --Lesleyhood (talk) 13:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you for your opinions.

In German, Ernestine rhymes with the English word cleaner–and, Lesleyhood, I agree that that doesn't help much. -- Irene1949 (talk) 14:13, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The only time I've ever heard the name "Ernestine" pronounced was one of Lily Tomlin's characterizations, and she said it the way JackofOz indicates in his first sentence, above - except Lily said ER-nest-een, emphasizing the first syllable, as with Caroline, C/Katherine, and Josephine. Caroline is often, but not always, rhymed with "line", as in "Brookline". Sometimes it rhymes with "lynn", as in "Brooklyn", as C/Katherine does. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You're probably right about the stress. In school I had to read My Love Must Wait, a book by Ernestine Hill, and my teacher always called her something between ER-nest-een and er-nest-EEN. I guess what I was implicitly denying (not that anyone suggested it) is that it's pronounced er-nest-EYE-n. -- JackofOz (talk) 20:03, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To determine the apparent discrepancy between the various ways to pronounce "-ine", it might be necessary to study the word origins. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 22:04, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've met a person with this name. She pronounced it ER-nis-teen, rhyming with "seen" and with the same rhythm/stress pattern as Josephine. However, she's from the USA. Best, WikiJedits (talk) 23:53, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

My old Webster's (ca. 1960) says ER-nes-teen. It also has CAR-o-line or CAR-o-linn; KATH-er-in or KATH-rin; and JO-ze-pheen or jo-ze-PHEEN. The interesting part about the latter is the "z", since it's typically softened down to an "s". Hard telling why a mom would name her daughter Ernestine anyway, which is kind of a homely name; there are such better ones out there, like Britney, Courtney, etc. The "-ine" suffix is from French, and is shown with various pronunciations, so I think it has to be chalked as just another of those oddities about English. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:19, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's certainly ER-nes-teen in the UK at present but rarely encountered now. Alansplodge (talk) 02:16, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's one of those obsolete names, like Elmer, which probably ceased to be a popular name once Elmer Fudd became well-established. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:24, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@ Baseball Bugs, you wrote: “Hard telling why a mom would name her daughter Ernestine anyway, which is kind of a homely name”–well, I think I can guess why the author of my book chose that name. I think that the title of the book–“The Importance of Being Ernestine”–is meant to be a parody on The Importance of Being Earnest , a comic play by Oscar Wilde. -- Irene1949 (talk) 16:37, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Some non-English names have their English exonyms and standards pronunciations. A good example is the names which have the ending ‘man’ in Europe (mostly in Germany) and in US. Because the letter ‘a’ does not represent the phoneme /a/ in English as in German language, the English exonym is /mæn/. I did not check the name origin, but it seems like such roots are neither of British nor of US English, other than the exonym /mæn/for ‘man’. I think, the names discussed above are just such analogy. Nevill Fernando (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 22:57, 31 October 2009 (UTC).[reply]

Thank you to all of you for your answers. -- Irene1949 (talk) 17:49, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

English - Meaning of "separatism"

This question isn't about other languajes but about english itself. It's not my native tongue, so some subtle details of it are unclear for me.

When I talk about a revolution of some centuries ago and/or the process that made a current country to get itself out from a larger empire and become a country on it's own, is it correct to denote such movement as "Separatism", or is that a loaded word? Does the word imply a taken position on whenever the process is considered legitimate or not, or is it a neutral one?. For example, the american war of independence and terrorist groups like ETA are completely different things, and from my perspective "separatism" sounds correct for the later but I'm not sure about the former. And if it is indeed a loaded word, wich other one should I use for denoting a process or intentions of gaining independence as a new country? I'm not sure about "Revolution" or "revolutionary" either, that sounds more correct being applied to a specific act than to long term things. But as I said, my knowledge of english is not complete. MBelgrano (talk) 12:49, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Separatism would be the right term. "Revolution" would be overthrow of the existing government. "Independence" typically pertains to a colony breaking away from the empire, so it's not quite the same thing as separatism or revolution, though it has some elements of both. The American Revolution was technically an independence movement, since it did not overthrow King George III in the process. The French Revolution was a revolution. Attempts to break Quebec away from Canada would be separatism. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:42, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are the words Secession and Separatism (es:Secesión and es:Separatismo). The English articles appear to make the distinction that Separatism is the long-term movement and Secession is the goal or act. AlmostReadytoFly (talk) 14:50, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To add to the above, I believe separatism is neutral and general. The alternative not mentioned is nationalism: it implicitly refers to a "nation" (of which the Guardian style guide says "Do not use when you mean country or state: reserve nation to describe people united by language, culture and history so as to form a distinct group within a larger territory"[4]) however Nationalism as a concept or ideology is only about 200 years old so it might be straining to apply it to older movements.

The only objection to separatism is likely to come from people who feel it's too neutral (e.g. Americans will refer to the pro-independence faction in the Revolutionary War as patriots rather than separatists). --Lesleyhood (talk) 14:55, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The conflict of 1861-65 is still a tender subject among many Americans, so historically there's been debate over even what to call the conflict. See Naming the American Civil War. Southerners asserted a right to Secession whose existence Northerners denied. For many years, the official Northern name for the conflict was the War of the Rebellion, something that Southerners denied they had engaged in. Northerners also called it the War of, or for, the Union. Southerners preferred calling the struggle the War between the States, the War for Southern Independence or even the War of Northern Aggression (or Yankee Oppression), and disliked the term Civil War for what they considered its negative implications. Civil War is now the generally used term. "Southern separatism" might apply more generally to the sentiments, opinions and intellectual trend that led the Southern legislatures to enact Ordinances of Secession, and secessionism more specifically to the political movement that led there. Oddly enough, I think the War of Secession (or of the Secession, or for Secession) was used by partisans of both sides after 1865, but with rather different implications. [And I need to add the caveat that I'm using Southerner and Northerner here as loose substitutes for the partisans of the Confederate and Union causes, regardless of their geographical origins or identification.] —— Shakescene (talk) 20:28, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Quite a few southerners still call it "the war of northern aggression". War Between the States is a pretty neutral term, as it's unquestionably true. Lincoln called it a Civil War, and that's probably the most often used term for it. Milton Bradley once made a board game called "Battle Cry", and I have a vague recollection that it was originally called "Civil War", possibly changed due to P.C. Don't bet the family jewels on that, though. More research needed. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 00:05, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

After WW1, President Woodrow Wilson used the term "national self-determination" for the same process you describe; with reference to the nationalities of the German and Habsberg Empires. You may find it a less emotive term and it has a good pedigree. Alansplodge (talk) 02:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Of course, as a historian and a Virginian by birth, Wilson was a sympathizer with the Lost Cause of Southern self-determination. The term has its own difficulties both ways: advocates of total independence see "self-determination" as a euphemism for continued political subordination, while those advocating a single uniform nationality (e.g. British, French, Spanish, Soviet, Chinese, Austro-Hungarian, American) always insist that everyone already has self-determination. But it really depends on the context whether "self-determination" is le mot juste; it might very well be the best neutral term in your particular case.—— Shakescene (talk) 21:39, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OK, this is off-track, so the complainers can "give it its independence" if they want, but since you bring up the "lost cause", I'm reminded of one of Rhett Butler's comments from Gone With the Wind, comparing the north and south: "They have factories, shipyards, coal mines, and a fleet to bottle up our harbor and starve us to death. All we have is cotton, slaves... and arrogance." While that may sound like a putdown of the south, it states a harsh reality - that in order to gain independence and win a war, it takes more than emotion; more than "believing". The northern army, initially at least, was managed by bunglers. (I once heard a history teacher say, "If Lincoln was such a great President, how come it took him 3 years to find General Grant?") But the north won in spite of itself, because it had the resources to outlast the south and to cut them off from external assistance. When it comes to separatism, independence, or whatever to call it, it's definitely important to "pick your battles". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 01:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Chinese Sentences Translation

These are Hakka Chinese sentences in IPA transcription. I don't know this IPA transcription. Can you somebody please convert these sentences into regular Chinese characters? 192.75.118.46 (talk) 16:26, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

[ a˦˦ mɔi˥˥ ɲja˦˦ mi˦˦ hi˥˥ tʰju˩˩ hi˦˦ tsɔn˧˩ lɔi˩˩ m˦˦ tsʰɛn˩˩ ]

[ kja˦˦ lau˧˩ tʰai˦˦ tsuk˧ tau˧˩ tsak˩ jɔŋ˩˩ jap˥ lɔi˩˩ kau˧˩ ]

[ hau˧˩ laŋ˦˦ ɔ˦˦, sui˧˩ tʰuŋ˧ kai˥˧ sui˧˩ kam˦˦ kʰɛn˩˩ pɛn˦˦ ɔ˦˦ ] Hmm... that's difficult for me. My first thought was that it was actually Hokkien because of the Amoy at the beginning, but then I saw that it's Hakka. Unfortunately I can't help. If it were Mandarin or Wu, I could give it a go, but my Hakka is near non-existant. Steewi (talk) 22:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I just want you to convert them into regular chinese characters. All Chinese use the same chinese characters whether they are simplified or classical. 192.75.118.46 (talk) 22:19, 4 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Two pronunciation questions

How are the following pronounced?

Calne
Jbara

Thanks! +An gr 16:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As for Jbara, watch this. Oda Mari (talk) 17:29, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the link! Calne I found in the Longman Pronunciation Dictionary too. +An gr 19:35, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Angr, what did the dictionary say? I'm curious. Marco polo (talk) 01:01, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

/kɑːn/, as in The Wrath of Calne. +An gr 08:43, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As for Jbara, could there have been more than one option? HOOTmag (talk) 19:07, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Fwiw, Greg Jbara says his name in this video: (heard right after the Broadway.com music intro)71.228.199.230 (talk) 05:45, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Finnish auxiliary verbs

I'm fairly sure I have asked this already, but I don't remember when and where. I thought I'd ask it here anyway, because this is a topic I've thought a lot about.

Finnish has a good deal of auxiliary verbs. Here's a list of what I can come up with:

ehtiä: have the time to
haluta: want
jaksaa: have the energy to
osata: be able to (know how to, have the skill to)
raaskia: have the heart to
saada: be allowed to
uskaltaa: dare
viitsiä: be bothered to, be arsed to
voida: be able to (in a physical sense, i.e. not to be prevented)

Can English express all of these in one word? I know Swedish can express almost all of them:

ehtiä - hinna
haluta - vilja
jaksaa - orka
saada - få
uskaltaa - våga

But I don't know what raaskia or viitsiä is in Swedish, and AFAIK both osata and voida are kunna in Swedish. How to make the distinction? Are there any other languages that can express all these? Are there languages that have even more auxiliary verbs? JIP | Talk 20:25, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'd say that in the appropriate context, English can can correspond to ehtiä ("I can't go shopping with you today, I have to work"), jaksaa ("I can't cook dinner tonight, I'm too exhausted"), osata ("Can you swim?"), raaskia ("I can't tell him how stupid he looks in that shirt"), saada ("You can't smoke in the restaurant"), and voida ("Can you get this door open?"). Haluta and uskaltaa you've already glossed with a single English word. That leaves only viitsiä as unexpressable by a single word in English. +An gr 20:40, 30 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Viitsiä would most often be expressed as orka (whose literal meaning is closer to jaksaa), and context would determine the difference. A near-exact translation is idas, which is somewhat seldom used today. ("Jag ids inte" - "I can't be bothered") Both Swedish and English have a slight ways to distinguish osata and voida. "Jag kan inte"/"I can't" being the broadest sense of being unable to do something (for whatever reason), whereas "Jag förmår inte"/"I am unable" carries a somewhat more physical sense. But I think Angr is right that mostly it's inferred from context. --Pykk (talk) 13:22, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

October 31

idiom as a noun

Is there a name for an idiom used as a noun in English? For example, "cruel and unusual" (used as a noun, meaning torture), or "breaking and entering" (used as a noun, meaning burglary), or "tom-ah-to -- tom-ei-to" (used as a noun, meaning identity between two objects or categories)? --Dr Dima (talk) 00:06, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think these are examples of metonymy, and some of them of synecdoche. --ColinFine (talk) 00:41, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've never heard any of those used as nouns. Breaking and entering is mostly a legal term, sometimes used in ordinary contexts but usually with its normal meaning, not idiomatically. 69.228.171.150 (talk) 07:44, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Cruel and unusual is mainly an adjective, and refers not just to torture, but *any* punishment that is inhumane (including excessively-long prison sentences, certain death penalties (hanging comes to mind) and dismemberment. -Jeremy ^{(v^_^v Stop... at a WHAMMY!!)} 19:03, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Words ending in "-ing" are often used as a noun. The homophone "braking", for example. A bit off-track now - hanging, when done the correct way, is actually more humane than the electric chair. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 13:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not murdering someone is even less inhumane. What a concept!--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 14:00, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Capital punishment is not murder. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 21:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Not legally, but morally it is. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 22:18, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, it isn't. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:43, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Enough already. Take it elsewhere, folks. -- JackofOz (talk) 07:24, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Russian dialects

Which Russian dialect is spoken in Kaliningrad Oblast? --88.77.244.107 (talk) 12:38, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Has it been Russian long enough to have a distinct dialect? Our Kaliningrad article says the Germans were expelled and replaced with Russians, so presumably they speak whatever dialect those Russians spoke, but we'd have to find out what dialect that was. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Also, modern Russian isn't really noted for having strongly distinct dialects. Asking 'which dialect' would imply a generally-recognized and well-defined set of dialects. I'm not sure there really is? It's at least not analogous to, say, German. --Pykk (talk) 02:41, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Various sources state that Kaliningrad was settled by Russians from different parts of Russia. According to this source, standard Russian is spoken there, with little trace of a regional dialect. This isn't surprising, since standard Russian would be the form that migrants from different parts of the country would have in common. Also, standard Russian is based on the central Russian dialect of Moscow, which is transitional between northern and southern dialects and thus comprehensible to people from all parts of Russia. Marco polo (talk) 02:42, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I saw that page too but it does say at the beginning "This work doesn't try, by any means, to give any kind of realistic picture of Kaliningrad, but a fiction created on one of the many myths that surround the city." (Still, other Google results also claim that they speak standard Russian.) Adam Bishop (talk) 03:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Proper Nouns

Hello. As a personal challenge I am looking for complicated proper nouns. Nouns that are uncommon and people are unsure if its a common noun and proper noun. For example, Xerox. Sadly, this is the only one I've found and I really could use some help. Thank You. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.85.1.189 (talk) 16:46, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

List of generic and genericized trademarks might help. These were all proper nouns on their introduction, but have since become commn nouns. -- JackofOz (talk) 23:49, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There are also eponyms - words named after a person, many of which have such currency they are now considered common nouns (e.g., boycott, watt, diesel) - see ‹The template Category link is being considered for merging.› Category:Lists of eponyms. Grutness...wha? 00:13, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

what is the meaning of this Chinese comment on my wiki entry?

I added a paragraph about James Legge to the wiki entry for "Huntly, Aberdeenshire", and a few days later received the following totally mysterious message in Chinese. Legge had a 50-year role in Chinese studies.... so perhaps this person is telling me something of interest? He is clearly referring me to the Chinese wiki... but other than that I have no idea as I do not read chinese. Can you tell me what the message says? thanks.....

from Peter2006son已经在2009年10月31日 (星期六)建立了Wikisource的 User talk:Maz59页面，请到http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User_talk:Maz59 查看当前修订版本。

这是新建页面。

编辑摘要：歡迎用戶

联系此编辑者：

邮件：http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:%E7%94%B5%E9%82%AE%E7%94%A8%E6%88%B7 /Peter2 006son

本站：http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User:Peter2006son

在您访问此页之前，将来的更改将不会向您发通知。您也可以重设您所有监视页面的通知标记。

              Wikisource通知系统

-- 要改变您的监视列表设置，请访问 http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:%E7%9B%91%E8%A7%86%E5%88%97%E8%A1%A8/edit

反馈和进一步的帮助: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Help:%E7%9B%AE%E5%BD%95 maz59Maz59 (talk) 16:55, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I can't read Chinese, but did you happen to view a page on the Chinese wikipedia for the first time? You get a welcome message (to your e-mail, your Wikipedia talk page, or both) whenever you do that. Adam Bishop (talk) 01:51, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Google Translate came up with this:

from Peter2006son have been in 2009, 10 Yue 31 Ri (Xingqi Liu) established a Wikisource to User talk: Maz59 page, go to http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User_talk:Maz59 view the current revised version.

This is a new page.

Edit Summary: Welcome to the user

Contact the editor:

E-mail: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:电邮用户/Peter2006son

Site: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User:Peter2006son

When you visit this page before, the future changes will not give you notice. You can also reset all of your monitor notification page mark.

Wikisource Notification System

- To change your watchlist settings, visit http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:监视列表/edit

Feedback and further assistance: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Help:目录

Hope that helps. ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:47, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

On 31 Oct 2009 Peter2006son has created the page "User talk:Maz59" on Wikisource. Please visit http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User_talk:Maz59 to view the current revision.

This is a newly created page.

Edit summary: welcome user

To contact this editor:

E-mail: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:电邮用户/Peter2006son

User page: http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/User:Peter2006son

We will not send you further notices until you visit this page. You can also reset your watchlist's notification settings.

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-- To change your watchlist settings, please visit http://zh.wikisource.org/wiki/Special:监视列表/edit

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I must say the result from Google Translate isn't THAT bad... --antilived^{T | C | G} 22:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pachakutiq, Pachacútec, Pachacuti

I'm giving thought to requesting a move for the Pachacuti article into what I consider a more-appropiate title of "Pachakutiq." Now, in the title I include the 3 most common names that this Inca emperor is commonly called. Pachakutiq is, technically, his real name as that is the Quechua form of writing and saying it. Pachacútec is the way that people refer to this person in Spanish, though I think I've seen some English publications that mention the emperor as "Pachacutec" (Same word, but without the accent). Lastly, "Pachacuti" is generally the term by which the Inca emperor is called in English. However, the problem I have with "Pachacuti" is that it really doesn't reflect the real name of the person in question. "Pachakutiq" is his real name (though it must be said that the Quechua writing system, as I'm sure most of you know, was not developed until more-recent centuries), and it sounds better than "Pachacuti" (which, if you really come to think of it, sounds quite silly). However, before I request the move, I would like to hear the more knowledgeable opinions from the Reference desk/Language group. Perhaps I am incorrect in my thoughts, and maybe it's just me who sees the name "Pachacuti" as incorrect and silly. As always, thanks in advance for the language help.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 19:09, 31 October 2009 (UTC)[reply]

In this context not really a linguistic question, but just one about Wikipedia style, which says: "For foreign names, phrases, and words generally, adopt the spellings most commonly used in English-language references for the article, unless those spellings are idiosyncratic or obsolete." Does that help? --ColinFine (talk) 00:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It sort of helps. I guessed it would be a linguistic question since it deals with what the better name is for a person in the English language. I'm not sure if "Pachacuti" would be an idiosyncratic term (according to the way I understood the definition, it does seem to be "idiosyncratic" or "peculiar"). What do you think, based on the definition of the word "idiosyncracy," is Pachacuti a peculiar term in comparisson to "Pachakutiq"?--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 12:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have no idea, except that you said yourself that '"Pachacuti" is generally the term by which the Inca emperor is called in English'. It seems to me that this, taken together with the sentence I quoted above, quite clearly indicates that this is the appropriate name for the article in the English Wikipedia. It doesn't sound silly to me, since I have no knowledge of the different forms. --ColinFine (talk) 23:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. That last sentence in your statement is quite exactly what I needed to read. I am not a native English speaker, therefore I had no idea as to whether in English the word "Pachacuti" was awkward or not. There is no need for a change in the article's title. Thanks once again.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 00:18, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Sounding awkward" isn't an appropriate reason to change an article's title anyway. If it's the most commonly-used English term, it's the right name for the article. -Elmer Clark (talk) 01:05, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Based on the definition that ColinFine provided from the WP MoS, if the spelling of the foreign word is idiosyncratic or obsolete it can be an option to change it even if it is the most commonly used term in English. For me, the term "Pachacuti" sounded peculiar, or idiosyncratic, and as I mentioned in a post above I've seen the term "Pachacutec" (without the accent) being used in some publications. However, I wasn't sure if the term "Pachacuti" was peculiar only to me or if it was a peculiar term for English-speakers as well (since this is the English WP), but ColinFine cleared up that by stating that he didn't see the term as idiosyncratic (particularly because he had "no knowledge of the different forms," which would not be the case if he had learned the term not in English). Quite obviously, to Quechua or Spanish speakers the term "Pachacuti" would seem just as silly and idiosyncratic as to me, but this is neither the Spanish or Quechua WP.--MarshalN20 | ^Talk 01:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

November 1

The study of borders

Is there a word for an interest in (the study of) borders? I am fascinated with borders, enclaves and exclaves, overseas territories, and tripoints. I'm not as into the countries themselves, rather, where one ends and another begins. Is there a term for this interest? --Codell^Talk 02:28, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Well, as you may have noticed in the Border article, it mentions the study of borders but does not give a name to it. I put [borders study] into Google and the second that came up (after an entry for the Borders bookstore chain) was the wikipedia article. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 02:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Liminology" has some results on Google that seem to deal with the study of borders of various kinds. The Greek word for "border" escapes me but I suppose you could form an -ology from it. Adam Bishop (talk) 03:14, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How about Quadripoints? They're cute. Bus stop (talk) 03:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I couldn't get the same result for "borders study" in Google. The Greek word for border is Σύνορα, so would "sunoraology" be correct? I like quadripoints too but no international ones current exist so I didn't include it in the list. --Codell^Talk 05:10, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually I know at least one quadripoint: China, Mongolia, Russia, and Kazakhstan. I think it would be sunorology in English phonology.174.3.111.148 (talk) 09:07, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would considered the study of borders a subfield of political geography. I've long been interesting in the topic but cannot think of a term for it. Also, I'd recommend against the term "Quadripoint". It would be nice to have an English term for such things, but as far as I can tell "quadripoint" is a neologism created by Wikipedians, via a translation from some German term, iirc. In short, it is a term that little usage outside Wikipedia, as far as I can tell. The books I have that focus on the history, quirks, etc, of political borders tend to use the word "shape", as in "The Shaping of America", or "How the States got their Shapes". I'm skeptical about their being a non-arcane non-neologistic word for it. Pfly (talk) 09:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Mongolia and Kazakhstan do not touch so technically it's not a quadripoint. "At present there are no generally recognized quadripoints involving four different countries", but you can look at subnational ones like Utah-Colorado-Arizona-New Mexico.80.123.210.172 (talk) 10:08, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Surely it should be synorology rather than sunorology - the Greek upsilon is regularly transliterated as y in Latin and hence in most English derivatives. --rossb (talk) 17:15, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, it should, although Google has no evidence of "synorology". Adam Bishop (talk) 18:17, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Meaning

What is "Stype"?174.3.111.148 (talk) 08:55, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

From the context given in the article, it would appear that Stype is a person who wrote about ancient history (antiquarian). --TammyMoet (talk) 09:19, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's actually a typo for Strype, John Strype to be precise. An "antiquarian", by the way, is basically any early modern historian, who did not use the critical techniques of modern historical study (they didn't necessarily study ancient history, they could have studied their own contemporary history, like Strype). Adam Bishop (talk) 14:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He was the Vicar of Leyton, Essex - now in east London.Alansplodge (talk) 21:37, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Russian translation

I moved Party of Belarusian Communists, after noting that ru wikipedia article had been moved and there's a reference that the party changed its name recently ([5]). But just after moving, I recalled that 'Mir' can also mean 'world'. What would be a good translation into English of the name 'Белорусская партия объединенных левых "Справедливый мир"'? --Soman (talk) 10:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty has translated the name as "Belarusian Party of United Leftists — A Just World". --Cam (talk) 18:23, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

grape variety pronunciation

How is the grape variety 'TANNAT' pronounced? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 114.76.21.59 (talk) 12:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW: The French WP states that the term originated in the Occitan language. Maybe there is a linguist online who has a grasp of this language / dialect? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 17:20, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Language is the best term. From my non-native knowledge, it should be pronounced [ta'nat] with emphasis on the second syllable. Occitan doesn't have geminate consonants, so the doubled N in the spelling shouldn't affect the pronunciation. Steewi (talk) 22:39, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What does Sjt. Prefix stand for in English.

Hi

I am from India, and had read a book about Ghandhiji (Father of the nation, India). In that i had found prefix before names. The prefix was Sjt. Could you tell me what does that mean.? 117.204.116.132 (talk) 12:58, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you.

It seems to mean Sergeant, the army rank. Tinfoilcat (talk) 16:32, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Though that is more commonly abbreviated "Sgt." (for obvious reasons). ···日本穣^? · 投稿 · Talk to Nihonjoe 17:40, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Serjeant" is an alternative spelling, as in Serjeant-at-Arms. --Tango (talk) 17:48, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Here's a discussion about the use of "Sjt" vs. "Sgt". -- JackofOz (talk) 18:57, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Have a look at Serjeant-at-law.Alansplodge (talk) 21:32, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Recording Spanish Internet Radio Talk Shows in MP3 format

Hi,

I have never used an ipod. I am studying spanish and listening to spanish internet radio stations.

Is there a way to record the shows and replay them, ideally on something like an ipod that I can take with me on the bus or when I jog.

Thank you for your help. I really appreciate the services provided by Wikipedia. It is where I look first for information.

Ramona Whyte —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.52.231.224 (talk) 18:12, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of radio stations offer a podcast of certain shows on the Internet that you could download directly to your iPod. If the radio station you have in mind doesn't, I'm sure there are plenty of other Spanish-language stations that do. As far as recording their online radio streaming, it depends: companies that stream media usually don't want people downloading it onto disk space because of copyright violations. This is especially true of TV stations that offer old episodes of shows online. The same probably goes for radio because of copyrighted music. There may be some programs out on the Internet that try to save the stream, but I'd just save myself the trouble and find some Spanish podcasts.--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 20:53, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This Google search gives some possibilities for capturing the audio stream. --Richardrj ^talk ^email 08:55, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have used Hidownload for capturing streaming data. If you do this, it's quite possible it will be in Real Audio format, which your MP3 player probably won't play. I have used the ALO converter to transcode this. --Phil Holmes (talk) 17:34, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Strange english sentences to latin sentences

Hello, I have in a frenzy of interest, gone "all over" google to find an effective latin sentence translator that doesn't give me a bunch of mangled words. I've failed completly, therefore I ask you nice editors to please translate these following weird sentences for me:

Fireball, fly
Special water orb, rise
~~Homing (A lá Sidewinder missile)~~

Thanks in advance

81.228.157.244 (talk) 19:59, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Um... Clarification: are you telling a fireball to fly, and a special water orb to rise? The last one makes little sense to me in English, so I couldn't translate it. I am somewhat doubtful that Latin had a word for fireball, but you never know (I'm going to use "ball of fire"). I'll give those first two phrases a shot, assuming that they mean what I suspect they mean.

Pila flammae, vola.
Orbis precipuus aquae, consurge. Falconus^{p t c} 20:24, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, it's just some fiction related terms recently orbiting my head, I also used ball of fire in my somewhat dog latin attempt with the help of wiktionary, somehow I wasn't satisfied with pila incendo, vola. 81.228.157.244 (talk) 20:31, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Last one stricken. 81.228.157.244 (talk) 20:33, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Latin had lots of words for "meteor" which could be translated "fireball". I don't think they had a word for "water orb" though, and they certainly had nothing that could mechanically aim itself like a missile. For fireball you could use "cometes", or "fax", which usually means torch. You could also say "fuge" for "fly", and "fax, fuge!" is nice and alliterative. "Orbis specialis aqueus, surge" doesn't sound like something a Latin speaker would normally say. For "homing", maybe "revertens" for "returning home" but I guess not that's not quite right... Adam

Bishop (talk) 20:34, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Why not make use of Latin's volitional subjunctive to avoid awkwardly addressing the inanimate objects? Then you could say "fax fuget," which would translate literally back to English as something like "Let the fireball fly!" but still work as a figurative translation as "Fireball, fly!" Probably would be more likely to come from a Latin speaker's lips, too. (Of course, there's always that weird third-person imperative, which is also an option.)--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 20:46, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You mean "fax, fugito!"? (Also known as a "future imperative"?) Adam Bishop (talk) 02:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That's it!--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 05:08, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think homing has a possible translation. I don't know if they had sidewinders or pigeons in Rome but they definitely had arrows and a likely allegory would be an arrow finding its target --80.189.132.211 (talk) 17:40, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm, a form of "dirigere" could be used. But I seem to recall that for arrows and spears they used "conicere" or "iacere", which doesn't really have a connotation of directed flight as much as shooting them in a general direction and hoping they kind of land where they were supposed to. I'm sure there must be some phrase for specific aiming of an arrow, but the best I can come up with is the verb "sagittare". Adam Bishop (talk) 22:14, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Pron. of leucism

Can someone tell me the correct pronunciation of leucism? ~~Is the c hard or soft?~~ Look-izm seems oddly apropos - or is it closer to luke-izm? I'd appreciate a non-IPA answer, but the article needs one. Matt Deres (talk) 22:38, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Given the leuc-/leuk- prefix comes from the same Greek word and the same background as leukemia, I'd say pronounce the vowel the same way you would there. For me, that makes it luke-izm. 86.142.224.71 (talk) 22:52, 1 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I wouldn't be convinced by that argument, since 1) 'leuk(a)emia' is spelt with a 'k' not a 'c', 2) the OED gives an '-s-' pronunciation for 'leucine' and 'leucite', and 3) the second element in 'leukaemia' is 'haem' so if the combination had occurred within Greek it would have had a 'χ' (chi) rather than a 'κ' (kappa), and probably come into English as 'leuchaemia' (which in fact the OED does give as an obsolete alternative spelling - the 'k' appears to have come from the German word that was the immediate precursor of the English one).

None of which is conclusive: the answer is 'it is pronounced the way(s) that people who say the word pronounce it', but of course that's not much help. But arguments from analogy, logic, or history, though suggestive, must crumble if in fact it turns out that people do say it in a way that those arguments would imply. FWIW, I would say 'lyoosizm' --ColinFine (talk)

The Etymology section of article says the "correct" pronunciation is with a hard c; but many would be tempted to soften the c (cf. words ending in -icism), so maybe the "correct" spelling is with a k (leukism). -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:19, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW, leukocyte (or leucocyte) has the same kind of issue. Mostly, I've heard luke-ah-site, but I've also heard people who seem to know what they're talking about say it much more like look-ah-site. At least there, "white blood cell" exists as another option :). Matt Deres (talk) 03:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The blog by someone obviously rather ignorant of classical English usage, which our article uses as a reference, is hardly convincing. I mean, he says leuci- should be pronounced with a /k/ sound because leuco- is pronounced with a /k/ sound, which is just silly. There are thousands of pairs of related words in English where a cee in the root alternates in pronunciation between /k/ and /s/, depending on the following vowel. That's the norm. It may be that herpetologists, or some herpetologists, or perhaps just the biology department of the university where this blog writer got his degree, pronounce leucism with /k/, or perhaps there's disagreement between those who use the English pronunciation with an /s/, and those who attempt an "authentic" Greek pronunciation with a /k/. But IMO, this is like saying that decimal should be pronounced with /k/, because decade is pronounced with /k/, and they are both based on the Greek root dec- "ten", which in Greek was pronounced with /k/. And to take his analogy to its logical conclusion, with Greek-derived cee always pronounced /k/, his example of leucocyte would be "correctly" pronounced LEW-koh-kyte (or even better, LEF-koh-keet).

If you want a counter-argument, leucic, leucine, and leucite, all of which contain the same Greek root leuc- "white", are all pronounced with /s/. Even closer semantically, the perhaps obsolete word leucæthiop (a Black albino) is (or was) pronounced with an /s/. kwami (talk) 03:45, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Anyway, there's a poll in the forum that the article uses to justify its prescriptive stance, which shows 90% use /s/ and 10% use /k/. This agrees with the OED and standard English pronunciation of Greek & Latin. Therefore the pronunciation is /s/, with the hellenic /k/ an infrequent alternate, as is commonly the case with technical words. I'll change the article. kwami (talk) 03:52, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

November 2

French in Lady Gaga song

What does the French part mean that Lady Gaga sings at 3:48 in Bad Romance? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Gft1fuUR3s --124.254.77.148 (talk) 07:05, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't listen, but various lyrics sites say it's "je veux ton amour et je veux ta revanche", which Google Translate says is "I want your love and I want your revenge". --Sean 13:13, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

She says: "je veux ton amour et je veux ta revanche, j'veux ton amour" ("I want your love and I want your revenge, I want your love") — AldoSyrt (talk) 22:08, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

pronunciation and language

following my question on my correct usage of the Welsh to the stationmaster it seems that he was corrrect. that in the context of our nationalities that i should pronounce the town with the English phoneme Ll. that language should be relative is confirmed by Wikipedia's own definition of pronunciation in that language can be spoken in different dialects and ways. Can this be progressed to language itself? It is said that Shakespeare himself introduced new words into the English language, and the language itself has changed in spelling from Old to Middle to Modern. Can we judge the correct speeling and language of others in such a dynamic context?--80.189.132.211 (talk) 07:24, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There is no English phoneme 'Ll': there is an English phoneme /l/ (with two rather different allophones in most dialects, but that's not relevant here), which is often written <ll> though not normally at the beginning of words.

I'm not sure quite what your main question means, but see prescriptive grammar and historical linguistics. Insofar as 'correct' means anything, certainly it changes over both time and space. Most linguists (in the sense of those who study linguistics) today, believe that the grammar, vocabulary, pronunciation of a language are whatever is used by its speakers, and the idea of 'correct' is purely a social question, not a linguistic one. --ColinFine (talk) 08:36, 2 November

80.189.132.211 (talk) 20:25, 2 November 2009 (UTC) 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I believe from previous discussion that it was established that Llandovery is the English spelling of a Welsh town. Hence it would be an English phoneme that was at the beginning of an English word. The wikipedia entry states that ll is a digraph which occurs in several languages. In English the /ll/ represents the same sound as single /l/.--80.189.132.211 (talk) 14:22, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, ll in the English name Llandovery is a digraph, which is an element of orthography; it's not a phoneme, which is an element of phonology. Using angled brackets to indicate orthography, you can say that <ll> represents the same sound as <l>, namely /l/ (in most cases, but not in e.g. poollike, where <ll> really does represents two /l/ sounds). <Ll> is rare at the beginning of English words, but where it occurs it represents the same sound as <l>, hence:

The one-l lama, he's a priest.

The two-l llama, he's a beast.

And I will bet a silk pyjama there isn't any three-l lllama.

(I think that's Ogden Nash; if it isn't, it ought to be.) +An gr 14:53, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It is, except he spelled it "pajama", and there's a counter to the last point: a "three-l lllama" is a big fire in Boston. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:28, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

thank you. i will not let pride get in the way of the truth. All opinions should be given space. As a layman I accept that LL is a digraph rather than a phoneme. By a quirk of nature the translation of the sound of Ll into English gave an English word that started Ll. Whether that start is described as a fractal, phoneme, allophone or digraph is for others better placed to state. My question, of which this is at the core of, is whether language is an absolute or is relative. I believe that in the present it is relative to the space and the observers in which it is spoken. Over the dimension of time it is prone to whim or fancy and changes like fashion to be correct one century and wrong another.--80.189.132.211 (talk) 17:07, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Everyone agrees language is relative. I don't see what "question" you are asking. Are you disagreeing with the way some people pronounce placenames starting with "Ll"? If you are, just say so. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 17:12, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't claim to speak for everyone , just myself. It seems that linguists do specify that there is an absolute way to pronounce or spell a word. My original question was the opposite of what you think. I wanted to understand the correct way of pronouncing a word as an English speaker to a Welsh speaker. The consensus would seem to be that the stationmaster was correct: that as an English word, and as an English speaker, I should pronounce the start of the word as 'l'.--80.189.132.211 (talk) 17:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think you'll find the same concensus in Wales; good luck on your travels! what will i find in Wales?80.189.132.211 (talk) 20:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)62.121.27.161 (talk) 18:06, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What is meant by an "absolute" way to pronounce a word? I'm thinking of an obvious example: "roof", which in some parts of the USA the "oo" rhymes with the "oo" in "look", and in other parts it rhymes with the "oo" in "aloof". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 18:33, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

an absolute way to pronounce a word in the space and time, that the observers find themself in, while also dependent upon the observers themselves. why am i defending what seems to be the jist of these pages that each'editor' has the right way to pronounce or spell a word ?80.189.132.211 (talk) 20:16, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I don't know of any trained linguist who says there's an "absolute way to pronounce a word". Where are you getting that idea? rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 18:57, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

from declaring to speak for everyone you know claim to speak for trained linguists. you answer a question with a question and try to find fault with a scecific than answering the whole. maybe you could epand on an ANSWER.--80.189.132.211 (talk) 19:37, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are the one who has claimed "linguists do specify that there is an absolute way to pronounce or spell a word", and it is up to the person making a claim to back the claim with any evidence. If you can point to a Wikipedia article, or any web page, that states this, then it will be easier to discuss. I'll add to the discussion by rephrasing something that has already been stated: Linguistics is descriptive, not prescriptive. A grammarian could be prescriptive, or an organization like the Académie française, which issues rulings on what the "correct" French language is; but this is not linguistics. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:06, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

OP: Your original question in this section appears to be "can we be critical about the way others speak and spell when language itself is changeable and changing?" The answer is yes, of course we can, and we do, just as we judge others on their dress, their behaviour, their attitude to personal hygiene, their choice of religion or football team, and so on. Were you rather meaning should we do so? If so, the only answers you will get will be personal opinion, which is supposedly outside the remit of the refdesk. Linguists know perfectly well that pronunciation is wildly variable; spelling is less so but still varies enormously depending on where you are and which authority you consult. Judgement of people for their language use arises from the relative prestige that we assign to the different variants, and why and how we do that is a whole field of study on its own. Why get tetchy with volunteers for their inability to answer a complex question with a simple answer? Ka renjc 20:13, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The primary purpose of language is to communicate, not to impress, and it is successful if it gets the message across and unsuccessful if it does not. I remember asking for a ticket to Pwllheli at Euston railway station in London 20 years ago, using a velarised alveolar lateral fricative, and immediately being asked, "Can you spell that, please?". Clearly my pronunciation was not a success on that occasion. Ehrenkater (talk) 21:26, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

i apologise for my tetchiness. the answer was not an answer but a question whereby the volunteer claimed to speak for everyone and then for trained linguists. i wrongly assumed he was one .i said that from previous correspondence linguists seemed to have an absolut for what how something is said . I should have expanded that i think it is relative to the time and space and those involved in the correspondence. My example was fashion- he or she may think that they are in fashion and others are in or out of fashion and everyone else may have fifferent ideas.zzyzzva.--

If by "the volunteer" you're complaining about rʨanaɢ, both of his statements above are correct. By the way, you're agreeing with him, as far as I can tell. Comet Tuttle (talk) 20:42, 2 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

footnote: out of an innocent and reasonable question I became hurtful and hateful. I apologise.80.189.132.211 (talk) 07:39, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As an aside, you may want to note the differences in pronunciation between North and South Wales. I was reminded on this when the BBC did a feature on the sea defences at Aberaeron last week. The presenter, Wyre Davies, is from South Wales and pronounced it "aber-erron" or something similar, but the local man they spoke to pronounced it "aber-eyeron". If the Welsh themselves can't agree on how their language is meant to be spoken, what chance do the rest of us have? --TammyMoet (talk) 11:25, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You'll find examples of that anywhere you look. Most Australians pronounce Launceston "lawn-ses-tən", but the locals say "lon-ses-tən". A lot of Melburnians say something close to "mal-bən", while the rest of us say "mel-bən". And is it "new-cass-əl" or "new-kah-səl"? It doesn't mean they're at war with each other on how Australian English in general is spoken. -- JackofOz (talk) 19:42, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

November 3

"Only" used as a contrast

Here's a sentence I read @ Miserere (Allegri), talking about a ban on copying the music on pain of excommunication (the 14-year-old Mozart heard it once and copied it down note-perfect, perhaps being unaware of the ban):

Once published, the ban was lifted; Mozart was summoned to Rome by the Pope, only instead of excommunicating the boy, the Pope showered praises on him for his feat of musical genius.

I was wondering about this use of "only" to mean "but" or "however". I know it's common colloquially, but how did it acquire this special meaning, and is it appropriate for encyclopedic text? -- JackofOz (talk) 08:12, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This is just poorly written English. Substituting 'however' followed by a comma makes the meaning of the sentence clear. As so often happens in English (and possibly other languages) if the meaning is unclear it is because the writer has not taken the care to construct the sentence properly and to use the the most appropriate words. It is not appropriate for an encyclopaedic article. Using the word 'only' for 'however' is used only in informal English according to the Collins Dictionary. Caesar's Daddy (talk) 08:54, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, if you want to be prescriptive, using "however" clause-initially like that is also improper. However is a postposition. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 13:12, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, this is an older, acceptable use of "only", in place of "but" or "except that". WordNet lists several uses[6] and a review of Google Books shows it is British English that was popular in the late 19th, early 20th century but has probably fallen out of favor or usage. For example, in 1899, John Stewart Mill wrote (emphasis added): "A reserved from his personal consumption a fund which he paid away directly to laborers; B does the same, only instead of paying it to them himself, he leaves it in the hands of the farmer, who pays it to them for him."[7] Viriditas (talk) 10:19, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I would reword it like this:

Once published, the ban was lifted; Mozart was summoned to Rome by the Pope. Instead of excommunicating the boy, the Pope showered praises on him for his feat of musical genius.

The implication of there being an exception is already included in the word instead. No further elaboration is called for. Bus stop (talk) 13:22, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

It's still used in colloquial English English, indicating a exception condition. "You can edit this article, only don't mess it up." Bazza (talk) 14:27, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To its credit, its meaning is perfectly clear. It leaves no ambiguity as to its meaning, when used this way. In that regard it can't be faulted. Bus stop (talk) 14:52, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, that's why I criticized Caesar's Daddy above. There is absolutely no lack of clarity; someone can criticize it for being informal if they like, but saying that "informal language is too unclear" belies a misunderstanding of how language works. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 15:26, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I learnt my English in England, and to my ears the use of "only" instead of "except that" is perfectly acceptable. To me it's a little bookish, rather than colloquial, though. --Kjoonlee 15:16, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ironically, the initial critique of "only" used "just" in a similar colloquial way. Some folks will emphasize it by saying "only just", as with the song, "We've Only Just Begun". ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 16:02, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This use of "only" is also colloquial in US English. This is a case where I don't think there's a trans-Atlantic difference. Marco polo (talk) 16:03, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Crusader states

What language was used by the Crusader states? I suppose Latin would have been a sort of official language, but the ordinary crusaders came from several different countries. Presumably during the time that the crusader states existed there would have been some generally used language in administrative circles? Maybe lingua franca – but would that be an anachronism? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.140.1.77 (talk) 11:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

There was no real "official language", just whatever everyone happened to speak. Latin was "official" in the sense that it was the usual language of communication for people whose native languages were different, or for educated people writing letters or chronicles, at least in the twelfth century. Correspondence with European rulers/popes was always in Latin, in both the twelfth and thirteenth centuries, as far as I am aware. Correspondence with the Muslims the Mongols was also written in Latin. Charters were always in Latin as well. But everyday speech was French - you can see this when people's names and titles are recorded in Greek or Arabic sources, obviously the crusaders had introduced themselves using their French names. The crusade cycle of chansons de geste were always in French and may have originated in the crusader states. The assizes of Jerusalem from the thirteenth century are all in French, and thirteenth-century chronicles are sometimes in French too. Presumably the ruling classes of the different states spoke their own forms of French, at least in the early years (some sort of langue d'oil, maybe Picard, in Jerusalem, Norman in Antioch, Provencal in Tripoli). On top of that there were also a very large number of Italians who used their own customs in every other matter, so they certainly used their own dialects in their own communities. The native populations who already lived there used their own languages - Arabic, Greek, Syriac, Armenian, etc. There are constant references to those people speaking their own languages, and the assizes say they were always allowed to swear oaths on their own holy books. Crusaders who were born in the east sometimes learned at least Arabic or Greek (Reginald of Sidon for example knew Arabic), and there were plenty of multilingual officials in the markets and courts. For the other states carved out of the Byzantine Empire in the thirteenth century, they also used French and Italian (depending on who had originally conquered them). Cyprus remained entirely Greek and there were Greek-speaking officials everywhere, even the assizes were translated into Greek, but the ruling class was entirely French (and later Italian when Venice took over). The Duchy of Athens was well-known as a centre of French culture. Adam Bishop (talk) 14:23, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

This looks extremely interesting: should it perhaps be added to the article? --rossb (talk) 18:43, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

English Scientific Word For Language Area (Not Broca's Area)

What is the English scientific word for language area (not Broca's area) [as in, where a language is spoken]?174.3.111.148 (talk) 14:18, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As you can see from the Broca's area article, Broca's area refers to an approximate area in the posterior inferior frontal gyrus, more specifically consisting of the pars triangularis and pars opercularis. —Akrabbim^talk 15:00, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

He's not talking about a part of the brain, he's talking about geographical regions where people use a given language. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 15:02, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

@ 174.3.111.148: I can't think of a word for this off the top of my head, but usually we just refer to a language's "geographical distribution" or something like that. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 15:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

What does OP stand for?

In the way we use it at this noticeboard (i.e., to refer to the person who first asked a question), what does OP literally mean? Just curious. rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 15:05, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"Original poster." Deor (talk) 15:06, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Ah. Thanks, rʨanaɢ ^talk/_contribs 15:07, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

See also Opie Taylor. :) ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 15:58, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

German: Why are umlauts not considered allophones?

There are two types of the sounds represented by the umlaut symbols Ä, Ö, Ü, and ÄU: On one hand those who are undisputedly phonemes, as in "Ähre" /e:ʀɛ/ "Möhre" /mø:ʀɛ/ or "Rübe" /ʀy:bɛ/. Maybe they come from A, O, U finally, but the word they derived from doesn't exist anymore. Anyway, the umlaut sounds can also be part of loanwords. On the other hand, there are umlauts that are grammatical features and derive from A, O, U, AU: Apfel/Äpfel, Ton/Töne, Wunsch/Wünsche, Maus/Mäuse. These umlauts are pronounced like the first type, but are just changed "normal" vowels. So, "Wünsche" is [vʏnʃə], but what would it be like if you want to write down the phonemes? [vʊnʃɛ] or [vʏnʃɛ]? I've only seen the latter. But this brings me to my argument: Think of "Rat" and "Rad". Both are pronounced [ʀa:t], but the phonemes are /ʀa:t/ and /ʀa:d/, respectively. Why does one write the "sound from that it derives" phoneme in Rad /ʀa:d/ [ʀa:t], but not in Hündchen /hʏndçɛn/ [hʏntçn]? My guess is that in the former example it is a difference between "pronunciation environment" and "grammar environment". /d/ is devoiced because it is at the end of the syllable, /ʊ/ isn't fronted to [ʏ], but it is replaced by another phoneme, which is /ʏ/. This "theory" of mine (grammar vs. pron. environment) is not really perfect, because one could also say that /d/ isnt devoiced to [t], but replaced by another phoneme, which is /t/. But I think most people which deem this allophones. In a nutshell: Why are umlauts that derive from "normal" vowels not considered allophones, when devoiced consonants are? --88.74.28.197 (talk) 15:41, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Allophones are different pronunciations of the same phoneme in a different phonetic environment. In the case of "Rad", [t] is the allophone of /d/ at the end of a syllable. The umlauted vowels that you have mentioned in the cases of those plural nouns are different phonemes and not allophones of the singular vowels because 1) They make a semantic distinction, so they are in effect minimal pairs, which define distinct phonemes, and 2) those vowels do not occur in different phonetic environments, as allophones must. Instead, they occur in the same environment, either syllable-initial or mid-syllable between two consonants. Marco polo (talk) 16:10, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

To give examples of minimal pairs:

Fugen (joints) vs fügen (to join)

dampfen (to steam) vs Dämpfen (damping)

Dosen (tins) vs dösen (to doze) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.41.11.134 (talk) 20:41, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Two Loanwords With Similar Meanings

I cannot for the life of me work out the difference between 'kitschy' and 'poshlust'. Does anyone know? --KageTora - SPQW - (影虎) (talk) 20:24, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Does Kitsch and poshlost help? --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 20:38, 3 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]