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June 18

What is so special about accents, that makes them so difficult?

How does it come that many people are quite good in some aspects - vocabulary, syntax - of a foreign language, but still have a foreign accent - sometimes quite thick and even after several years? --Mr.K. (talk) 10:20, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Let's make a distinction between writing/speaking and reading/listening. As far as writing/speaking is concerned, some people find it much easier to write than to speak, because the ability to write correctly requires "mental" talents only (grammar, syntax, vocabulary etc. - assuming that the motoric ability "to move the hand when one writes" isn't that difficult task), while the ability to speak requires also special "motoric" talents (mainly: accent). On the other hand, as far as reading/listening is concerned, one may find it much easier to understand what one reads than what one hears, because the ability to understand what one reads - requires just the ability to distinguish between visual nunaces - the reader determining one's own speed of reading, while the ability to understand what one hears - requires the ability to distinguish between acoustical differences (reflected by nuances in accent) - the listener being unable to control the rate of speech. To sum up: As far as writing/speaking is concerned - mental talents are (for some people) more available than motoric ones, and as far as reading/listening is concerned - visual differences are (for some people) much easier to notice than acoustical ones. HOOTmag (talk) 11:02, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

HOOTmag has given a very nice technical description of what makes pronunciation qualitatively different from syntax. I would add that teaching methods also share some blame in taking an extremely permissive approach to bad pronunciation and exposing new language learners to artificial language environments in which competent speaking skills and accurate language production are of little concern. Some people are barely even aware that different languages are composed of different phonetic building blocks that must be given special attention. And since pronunciation relies so much on motor skills and muscle memory, bad habits fossilize quite early on, and people don't even realize just how far off their own pronunciation is. Paul Davidson (talk) 11:12, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I accept your addition. HOOTmag (talk) 12:22, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Every language has its own set of points of articulation. At a very early age we learn where to e.g. place our tongue when pronouncing the sounds of our native language and these are hard-wired in our brain. When learning another language this language usually has a different set of points of articulation. If one of the sounds of the foreign language lacks in the native language the speaker may resort to a sound known from his native language with a slightly different point of articulation. You can try to hit the exact point of articulation required by the foreign language but this usually requires some more effort everytime you pronounce the sound (until the foreign point of articulation is hard-wired in your brain, which can take some time). It's just easier to use the points of articulation known from your native language. They require less effort.

Why does the accent last? If you once realize that everybody understands you despite the accent there is not much motivation to put effort in improving your pronunciation. Accents are a feature that is prominent but it has less effect on intelligibility than wrong syntax or lack of vocabulary. --::Slomox:: >< 14:27, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Some related topics are Broca's area and Wernicke's area.—Wavelength (talk) 15:34, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Another related topic: Critical_period_hypothesis#Second_language_acquisition. Some OR, regarding speaking Norwegian with an American accent: I've listened to Norwegians who have emigrated to USA at an early age (presumably in their twenties), who have been interviewed on Norwegian TV, speaking Norwegian. They speak Norwegian with an American accent, that is (to a Norwegian ear) virtually indistinguishable to that of a Norwegian-speaking American who has moved to Norway at a similar age. --NorwegianBlue ^talk 20:06, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

There are many sounds that the human is able to produce. As a young child you can distinguish between these sounds easily; as you get older, your brain gradually begins only hearing the sounds relevant to the language(s) that the person speaks. The difference between a "p" sound and a "b" sound are very obvious to English speakers. It makes the difference between "bat" and "pat". The difference between an aspirated "p" and a nonaspirated "p" (I believe it's saying "p" and extending it with a breath; we don't worry about it in English, so I may not have a good understanding of it) is something that absolutely cannot change the meaning of an English word, and indeed, if I aspirated a "p" when it's not normal to do so, you probably wouldn't even notice. Yet, in some languages (Thai Vietnamese, if I remember correctly) the difference is as major as b/p to us, and changes the meaning of the words, and in other languages "p"/"b" will not change the meaning of a word. The "r" that we use in English is somewhat rare in the language world, and to some cultures is difficult to distinguish from an "l". Part of learning another language is learning the sounds that you are not trained to hear, and that can be a tremendous challenge for some people. Somebody, correct me if I am wrong about the p/pʰ (aspirated "p") or anything else for that matter. Falconus^{p t c} 23:27, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Are they not innate to articulators as such a variation to be produced? Although there may by some instances in other languages, I agree that these allophones in English are not trained to hear, which is a predictable phonetic realization that is natural to its phonemic environment.

On the OP, couldn’t it be said precisely that it relies on the nature of social interaction in which one engages though the spoken aspect cannot fully reley on the same dynamism because it depends heavily on the degree of cue that individual renders to environment? -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 02:03, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't know exactly what you mean... I am not a linguist, I only have a casual interest. Also, I think I messed up. I don't think it was Thai, but rather Vietnamese. In any case, I am trying to remember what I learned in my Language and Culture class last year. Falconus^{p t c} 02:43, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

In Vietnamese it is the distinction between aspirated t (spelt th) and unaspirated t (spelt t) that is phonemic. It is fairly difficult for an English speaker to acquire but can be done with practice. I found having previously learned French helped, because I could pronounce the aspirated t as in English and the unaspirated one as in French. The tones are the really difficult part of Vietnamese for a speaker of a non-tone language, and the difference between short and long a can be difficult too, especially when it is in diphthongs. Itsmejudith (talk) 23:27, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

-er vs. -eer in English

manage => manager, fish => fisher, roof => roofer, but mountain => mountaineer, profit => profiteer, auction => auctioneer. Is there a rule or pattern? --173.49.13.168 (talk) 10:30, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

One pattern that stands out is that you add -er to verbs and -eer to nouns. "Verb + er" simply means "one who (verb)". -eer is obviously a different kettle of fish. Paul Davidson (talk) 11:14, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

The -eer form comes from Latin -arius, through French, according to this. This other entry expands on the same idea. And of course there's a very interesting OEtD entry for -er. Which may be indirectly related to French-originated -eer. Pallida  Mors 23:10, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

As for a specific pattern, I haven't found much [or should I say, anything? :(]. Pallida  Mors 23:14, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

One obvious pattern is that there are many more "-er" agentives than there are "-eer" nouns, and that the "-er" agentive noun suffix is more linguistically productive than "-eer" also... AnonMoos (talk) 23:30, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

You can see more suffixes at http://www.english-for-students.com/Suffixes.html (1.i. and 5.i.).—Wavelength (talk) 02:15, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

The 'er' suffix generally follows a verb to denote one who carries out the action of that verb - see your list (even 'roof' is a verb as in 'to roof a house'). The 'eer' suffix attaches to a noun to denote the person who carries out the obvious action associated with that noun. e.g. chariot - charioteer (one who drives the chariot). Or your example of mountain and mountaineer (one who climbs a mountain). 194.223.35.225 (talk) 15:00, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Mental health care: consumer, user or client?

Is consumer really the best word for people getting diagnoses? Lova Falk talk 14:12, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Your question seems to be asking whether we feel it is the best word, and not whether it is actually the 'official' word or not, so, based purely on POV, I shall say that I object to the use of the word 'consumer', and would prefer either 'user' (more specifically 'Service User', as used here in the UK) or client. If you want to know whether the word 'consumer' is officially recognized nomenclature for users/clients, you may want to contact your local service providers and see if they have any information. You may also want to raise this issue on the article's talk page, as is standard for any article-related issues needing attention. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 14:38, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

What on earth is wrong with calling people patients? This seems to be pervading all forms of health care. -- Q Chris (talk) 14:57, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

My local service providers say either patient, klient or brukare. But they don't say konsument regarding mental health care users. ;)

Anyway, I do mean whether it is actually the "official" word or not. I just thought I'd check it here on the reference desk first, before I start a discussion on the talk page. With regard to the word patients, I think there has been a discussion in how the word patient colours the way we see people with a "mental" diagnosis. Lova Falk talk 15:53, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I don't see how that would be any more the case than with people with a physical diagnosis, viz. none. People under the care of healthcare professionals have always been called "patients". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 04:32, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

The issue is whether various mental illnesses should be considered a "disease", and the fact that many people working in mental health (at least in community mental healthcare) are not doctors and are not "treating" individuals but helping with life stuff. I worked in community mental health in Pennsylvania for several years, and there "consumer" was the official term and was pretty much the only one used. Not sure about other places, but I imagine it would be similar. rʨanaɢ (talk) 02:16, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

My husband works in mental health awarenesss training in the UK, and the term that comes up most frequently in his material for those receiving treatment is "service user". I'm with Jack on the "patient" thing - if I'm ill and need help and care, I do not want it to be regarded as the same kind of transaction as taking a bus ride or borrowing a library book - but then I still gnash my teeth every time the announcer on the train refers to me as a "customer" instead of a passenger. Karenjc 19:25, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Rjanag, you would know better than I about the strong campaign over recent decades to educate people to regard mental conditions in the same way as physical conditions - they're just as treatable, just as potentially curable, and the sufferers deserve the same respect as those who have physical conditions, and do not deserve derision or being locked away. They are indeed sufferers of "diseases" in many cases; maybe not contagious diseases, but most physical conditions aren't contagious either. When being attended to by licenced medical practitioners, they are indeed "patients", just like physical patients. And sure, there can be a raft of people involved in their treatment, just the same as with the treatment of physical conditions (physiotherapists, social workers, educators, ...). Those other helpers would use terms other than "patient", yes. But please don't throw the baby out with the bathwater and eliminate the doctors from the equation - they do have an important role to play, and the people under their care are "patients". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:56, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I think this may be a matter of perspective. The kind of work I did had more to do with day-to-day living and carrying out various goal-oriented plans, and less to do with the diagnosis and treatment of mental disorders, and people like me (and MHPs and case managers)—the 'other helpers' you refer to—were supposed to use "consumer". As for actual psychiatrists, maybe "patient" is a more appropriate term for them to use, but I don't really have much experience with that end of things so I'm not sure what they use. rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:10, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Just my perception, but from what I notice in the U.S., you're more often a patient when dealing with a physical-health professionals (a physician, a dentist, an optometrist) and more often a client when dealing with mental-health professionals (a psychologist, a licensed clinical social worker). A psychiatrist falls into both categories but the M.D. tends to triumph, and those whom she treats are patients. "Consumer" tends to be the insurance company's perspective. --- OtherDave (talk) 21:19, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Lena's bizarre accent

So, I've heard the Eurovision Song Contest 2010 winner, "Satellite", on the radio a few times, and I have to say that Lena Meyer-Landrut has one of the weirdest accents I have ever heard. Could someone more knowledgeable than myself confirm that her accent is nothing at all like a typical German accent (nor any other accent, for that matter). A short sample from the song can be found at: File:Lena_Meyer-Landrut_-_Satellite.ogg (It's even weirder in other parts of the song, though). Thanks, decltype (talk) 15:26, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

It sounds pretty normal, but if pressed I'd say it sounded Indian to me, like something I'd expect in songs sung in English from Bollywood movies. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:32, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

When I heard it, I thought she was doing an impersonation of either Lily Allen or Katy Perry: affecting a Cockney accent in much the same way as Dick van Dyke did in Mary Poppins. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:39, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah, yes, Lily Allen - definitely! The music style is not much different either. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 15:45, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

There were also comments about her sounding like Australian singer Missy Higgins. The way Lena says day as [dɑj] is very Australian. Steewi (talk) 04:14, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Chinese translation request

File:IMG 2303.JPG

So, while I was in Beijing, I bought a small painting. Nothing terribly fancy, but I like it. A red-flowered tree, with words along the bottom corner. Before I hang it on my library wall, it would be nice if I knew what it says. If it says, "Property of gullible tourist," obviously, that'll only make me love it more. Anybody here read what I am assuming is Mandarin? -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:18, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

The image is upside-down. The first two characters are 紅/red and 梅/plum. Next two are 報 and 喜/joy (?). It might be "red plum blossom brings joy" . But I cannot read the rest. Oda Mari (talk) 16:30, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Oops! Sorry, I forgot that the scroll-thing goes on the bottom, not the top. I've rotated the picture and swapped it. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 16:37, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

I've got it. The next three are 庚/Yang Metal, 寅/tiger, 年/year and it means 2010 in Chinese calender. And the last three are 溥？画/paint and it means painted by 溥？. Oda Mari (talk) 17:05, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Cool! I can live with that on my library wall. Thank you very much for the translation. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 21:14, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Oops! Correction. The fourth character is 春/spring, not 喜. The correct translation is " Red plum blossoms are telling you (the arrival of) spring. Oda Mari (talk) 06:50, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I believe it is indeed 喜 (joy/happiness) (the long horizontal stroke 2/3 way down gives it away). --Kvasir (talk) 15:02, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Translate from Japanese to English

ちのうが　たかく　とても　れいせい。たいようの　ひかりを　たっぷり　あびると　うごきが　するどくなる。

Thanks! --75.25.103.109 (talk) 20:16, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

'[He] is highly intelligent, and very level-headed. After bathing a lot in the rays of the sun, [his] movements become astute.' I am guessing this is for a game character? --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 21:48, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Tsutāja from Pokémon Black and White. --75.25.103.109 (talk) 21:51, 18 June 2010 (UTC)

Right, I thought it looked familiar. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:37, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

June 19

Translation Into Japanese

I was trying to translate this proverbial statement into Japanese, but it has a more complex make-up than I'm used to working with (I'm barely learning the language), so I was wondering if someone can help. The statement is: "A cloud does not know why it moves in just such a direction and at such a speed, it feels an impulsion . . . this is the place to go now. But the sky knows the reasons and the patterns behind all clouds, and you will know, too, when you lift yourself high enough to see beyond horizons." Filosojia X Non(Philosophia X Known) 04:13, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Announcing Eurovision results

A prologue first. I was taught that English sentences like the following require singular verbs, and I have always encountered them with singular verbs in my experience of reading and listening to English:

• 3 years is a long time.
• 100 miles is a long distance.
• There is 500 euros in my wallet.

The verbs are singular rather than plural, although the subjects are technically plural nouns modified by cardinal numerals other than one. I was taught that is so because the subjects grammatically represent contractions of descriptive expressions, such as those that follow:

• A period of 3 years is a long time.
• A distance of 100 miles is a long distance.
• There is the sum of 500 euros in my wallet.

Now about what Eurovision has to do with that. Each year, after the contest is over, a spokesperson from each country to have performed a song announces in English (or French) the results of their country's vote. The announcers must read out in ascending order what three countries have received most telephone votes from their own country, and those three songs get 8, 10, and 12 points respectively. Usually only two of the spokespeople are native English speakers, because English is the dominating first language in two European countries - Ireland and the UK.

So here's a video of this year's announcing the Irish votes. The announcer says the following (starting at 1:20; my bolding):

Eight points goes to Germany. Ten points goes to Belgium. And finally twelve points for Denmark.

On hearing that, I assumed the singular verbs were correct in that situation, since the phrase "ten points" was a short way of saying "the amount of ten points", which would definitely require a singular verb. I also assumed that all the other announcers used plural verbs instead because of some (wrongful) associations they were making between English and their own languages. But here's what the British spokesperson said on announcing the votes (at 1:20; again my bolding):

Our eight points go to Romania. Ten points go to Turkey. And finally our twelve points go to Greece.

Sorry for the lengthy post, but here comes the question, at last. Are the plural verbs in the last quote wrong, and if not, would a sentence like "3 years are a long time." be correct as well? Thanks. --Магьосник (talk) 01:59, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

That's a very interesting question. I'm sure we'll be discussing it at length for the next 24 hours or so. Despite being a native speaker, I can't give you a good reason way the examples above hold, but I can tell you that "Ten points go/goes to Belgium" both sound okay to me, but "Our 8 points *goes to Romania" would sound jarring to me. Plus, "3 years *are a long time" doesn't sound good at all. I'll throw this into the mix: At first I thought it had something to do with the possessive determiner (our), that being the only difference between the two types of examples, but I can say "My 5 bucks is on Argentina to win the World Cup," and quite a few other people can say that too (granted: some of those hits are nonsense).--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 02:25, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Or a less idiomatic example with a possessive: "Did you pay your share of the charges for the trip?" "Yes, my twenty dollars is on the table."--el Aprel (^facta-_facienda) 02:38, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Doesn't it depend on the context whether the motions or state is separate or a unit?

Like--both forms are correct, unless, for example, the 8 points are to be received only by certain persons in a group--which numbers for plural; or like--3 years have 3x365 days (for more than one unit), but, 3 years is a long time (for one unit).

Some grammarians classify these circumstances as 'intuitiveness in context'? -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 15:55, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

There is some variation in the English language for the type of verb used with noun phrases denoting collections (Differences_between_American_and_British_English#Formal_and_notional_agreement). For example, American English uses singular verbs with most groups ("England wins the World Cup" - "England" referring to a single sports team), whereas British English uses the plural ("England win the World Cup" - referring to the multiple players on the team). You could be seeing the same thing, with the Irish announcer using "the grouping of points is a single object" thinking, and the English announcer using "there are multiple points being given" thinking. -- 174.24.195.56 (talk) 21:19, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

If voting countries had the option of splitting 30 points between as many or as few countries as they liked, one might say "2 points go to Belgium, 3 points go to Poland, 8 points go to Turkey, and 17 points go to Romania". But since the only option is to give discrete blocks of 8, 10 and 12 points to three countries, each block could be regarded as singular, hence goes. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:57, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

... (a supplementary question) Why do they split 30 points rather than 15? Exactly the same results would be obtained if they awarded 4, 5 and 6 points. Dbfirs 22:12, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

They don't. They also award 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2 and 1 points to progressively less favoured countries, but those are no longer announced so formally. Algebraist 22:26, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah, thanks, that explains it. I was misled by the conditional used by Jack of Oz above. As you will have gathered, I don't watch the contest. Dbfirs 07:31, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

It occurred to me to check up on how the UK and Ireland had announced their votes in the recent years. Here are the results.

• UK

  2009 (9:28): Our eight points go to Iceland. Our ten points go to Norway. And the United Kingdom gave twelve points to Turkey.
  2008 (0:26): Eight points go to Turkey. Ten points go to Latvia. And twelve points go to Greece.
  2007 (6:10): Our eight points go to Ukraine. Ten points to Greece. And our twelve points go to Turkey.
  2006 (8:54): And Ireland, eight. Lithuania, ten. And our twelve points go to Finland.

• Ireland

  2009 (5:10): Eight points go to Norway. Ten points to our nearest neighbour, the United Kingdom. And finally we give twelve points to the beautiful Jóhanna and Iceland.
  2008 (5:44): Eight points to the United Kingdom. Ten points to Poland. And finally twelve points to Latvia.
  2007 (2:54): Eight points go to Ukraine. Ten points go to Latvia. And finally twelve points go to Lithuania.
  2006 (5:06): We’re going to give eight points to the United Kingdom. Finland, ten points. And finally twelve points to Lithuania.

Looks like Derek Mooney was the only spokesperson in the last five years to regard the points as blocks of points. And he had the chance to do that in both 2009 and 2010, but did it in 2010 only. He was the Irish announcer in both years. --Магьосник (talk) 08:56, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Note the original poster's example "There is 500 euros in my wallet" sounds wrong--it should be "There are 500 euros in my wallet", I believe. Why this sentence and not the others uses 'are' and not 'is' I don't know. Perhaps something to do with starting with "there". The sentence "500 euros is a lot to keep in my wallet." sounds fine. Then again, one would say "500 euros are in my wallet", not "500 euros is in my wallet." On third thought, maybe it's the lack of a contraction that sounds wrong to me. The sentence "There's 500 euros in my wallet." seems okay. How odd. Pfly (talk) 09:40, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

pronunciation of Yue ware

Anyone know? Only thing I've found is "you-eh", but "eh" doesn't normally occur at the ends of English words, and I think that's supposed to be a best approximation of the Mandarin, rather than the English pronunciation. — kwami (talk) 09:33, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

/jyɛ/ would be approximately right in IPA, I guess. In pinyin a 'u' following a 'y' is pronounced like German 'ü' (though in this case it's more of a glide than a full vowel as it precedes the 'ɛ'). Also, in English 'eh' occurs at the end of the word 'eh'. As for the tone, well, if you can give us the hanzi for it..... --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 10:34, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Doh! I'm sorry. I meant the English pronunciation. (It's fourth tone, but we don't need that.) — kwami (talk) 19:02, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Is this thread written in some special code known only to initiates? It seems to be about the "pronunciation of Yue ware", yet it starts off suggesting it's pronounced "you-eh", and that's where I parted company with any understanding of what it's really about. There are references to pinyin, hanzi and fourth tone, so I'm sort of guessing there's a Chinese connection somewhere, but that is not stated in so many words. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:47, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Yue ware is probably relevant. Algebraist 21:52, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah. Thanks, Algebraist. That would have been good to have up front. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 22:10, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Would have thought the word Mandarin gave it away, Jack. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:36, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Just goes to show that what seems so utterly obvious to one person that they don't think stopping to spell it out is necessary, may be somewhat obscure to someone else. It was fairly clear from the outset that this was about a Chinese word or words. But it was given in Roman type - "Yue ware" - rather than Chinese characters; asking for a pronunciation is unusual in such circumstances. Without the link, it was not apparent to those such as me who've never heard of Yue ware, that it referred to a type of ceramic and that there would probably be an article on it. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 04:07, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I picked up on it immediately from the word 'ware', which is very often used to denote ceramics and usually follows the place it is from. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:44, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah, but the world is full of literalists like me. "Pronunciation of Yue ware" said to me that there were 2 romanised Chinese words whose pronunciations were being sought, and that impression was reinforced by "you-eh". I now know the only word Kwami was interested in was "Yue", but given my complete lack of context, that was far from obvious to me at the time. If the header had said "Pronunciation of Yue (in 'Yue ware')" or something, I might have got off on a better foot. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:35, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

To go further on the “‘eh’ doesn't normally occur at the ends of English words”, the Canadian ‘eh’ is then an exception for such claim because the ‘eh’ is used as ‘tag question’ in Canadian colloquialism to roll back a declarative statement in to a semi-interrogation (where an answer is not always expected but an action or acceptance). Example:

You do smoke cigar, don’t you?

You smoke cigar, eh?

So a statement that is usually not of an imperative or interjection but of a declarative is simply tagged here for an interrogation by the Canadian specialty. But I do not know the exact expression of the phonetic realization; perhaps it must have a paralinguistic addition.

Does anyone know how to extract the tag question 'eh' or the interjections 'eh' (hey! hi!) in phonetic realization? -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 00:10, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Well it's definitely not /ɛ/, more like /e/ or /ej/. Adam Bishop (talk) 23:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I didn't even mention Canadian English and the 'eh' supposedly found there. Don't forget, 'eh' exists in practically every dialect of English, not just Canadian. Also, as you say "To go further on the “‘eh’ doesn't normally occur at the ends of English words”, the Canadian ‘eh’ is then an exception for such claim because the ‘eh’ is used as ‘tag question’ in Canadian colloquialism to roll back a declarative statement in to a semi-interrogation (where an answer is not always expected but an action or acceptance)." - well, fair enough, but the sentence was referring to the 'eh' not occurring at the end of words, meaning 'part of them', and had nothing to do with 'eh' coming at the end of a sentence. Anyway, in answer to your question, as Adam says, it's more like /e/ or /ej/ than /ɛ/. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 00:40, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Do Canadians actually talk of "smoking cigar", rather than "smoking cigars"? Seems an odd sort of construction, akin to "giving head". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 04:07, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

No...I thought that was a typo or something. (Unless Mr.Bitpart is Quebecois, which would explain the /ɛ/, since the French version of "eh", "hein", does sound like that, but nasalized). Adam Bishop (talk) 04:43, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Okay, what I meant was there's this rather uncommon word in English, "Yue", found for example in Yue ware (it's most established usage). It's originally a Mandarin word, but presumably in the phrase "Yue ware" you wouldn't give it a Mandarin pronunciation. So how is that phrase pronounced? There's no pronunciation for it in the OED. The only description I've found of "Yue" is as "you-eh", but that was for Yue as a personal name or dynasty or something, not "Yue ware", and I think it was also an attempt at conveying the Mandarin pronunciation, not the English. Given that we already have the Chinese in Yue ware, what should we add for English? "You-eh" would presumably be /ˈjuː.ɛ/, but AFAIK there are no regular words in English with /ɛ/ at the end (only exceptions are interjections like "eh" or "meh"). So I might expect it to be assimilated as "you-ay" or "you-ee" or something, but I haven't found that explicitly. Presumably someone who works with Chinese ceramics would know. — kwami (talk) 05:45, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

If you spell it correctly, you will find it in the OED, along with a pronunciation. See Yüeh (1). 124.214.131.55 (talk) 13:49, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

The OED2 didn't have it, and I don't have access to OED3. Can you quote? — kwami (talk) 10:45, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Sure:

Yüeh (ˈjyə) [f. the name Yüeh Chou of a town (now called Shaoxing) in Zhejiang Province, China.]

A type of stoneware distinguished by a celadon glaze, first produced in the Six Dynasties period and perfected during the Tang dynasty. Freq. attrib., esp. as Yüeh ware.

Citations skipped, but the first given is 1887. 124.214.131.55 (talk) 14:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

So it's giving an approximation of the Chinese pronunciation, not an anglicized pronunciation, which is what I think Kwami is after. My intuition says the anglicized pronunciation is either [ju.ˈeɪ] or the spelling pronunciation [juː], but I've never heard the word pronounced. Probably most English speakers who go around talking about Yue ware are familiar with Chinese to some extent and thus aim at a more or less authentic Chinese pronunciation rather than an anglicized one, though. +Angr 14:34, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Got a copy of Webster's 3rd, and there they do have [ju.ˈeɪ]. Called the Met; the people I got ahold of in the Asian art dept. didn't know. Brooklyn, the person I spoke to asked s.o. else and reported that they had told him [ˈjuː.ɛ], which isn't quite anglicized. — kwami (talk) 20:34, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Does saying, "It still begs the question" another name for circular reasoning?

I made a video about something, but in it I said "It still begs the question". Then someone told me 'Begging the question is another name for circular reasoning, like, for example saying "God exists because the Bible says so. The Bible is true because it is the word of God".' He said I should have said, "But it still leads to the question" instead. Is this true? ScienceApe (talk) 13:29, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

See Begging the question. 92.15.4.168 (talk) 14:18, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

To avoid this issue, it would be better to say "raises the question". --Anonymous, 02:30 UTC, June 20/10.

Yes, I would always do so, but the misunderstanding is so incredibly widespread that I have stopped correcting the error! Dbfirs 07:25, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Is it really an error, that a lay phrase happens to coincide with a technical phrase? Especially when the lay phrase is perfectly clear, and the technical phrase is a really weird idiom? For example, see this Language Log post. 86.164.66.4 (talk) 20:35, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I haven’t read much about Aristotelian’s concepts of ‘begging the question’ and ‘circular reasoning’. As per my notes, the differences relay on the question of premises upon which a proposition is drown.

So does it mean that it is of ‘begging the question’ if the premises postulate an axiom that is more or less of deductive fallacies, and it is of ‘circular reasoning’ if the premises postulate an axiom upon mere circular premises (rather than more or less of deductive fallacies)? -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 19:03, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Garden or yard

Garden

yard

Does "yard" mean the same as garden in American-english, or is there a difference in meaning? Thanks 92.15.4.168 (talk) 13:51, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Which definition do you mean? If you mean "the open area at the front and/or back of a house", then "yard" is the common American English term. If you mean "a place where plants are grown", an American would definitely call that a "garden". Xenon54 (talk) 13:59, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Would an open area with just a grass lawn be a "yard"? 92.15.4.168 (talk) 14:16, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Yes. When an American says 'garden,' she is usually thinking specifically of an area where plants, like flowers or vegetables, are cultivated. When thinking of an open, grassy space near the house, then 'yard' is the word we'd use. The sentence, "We have a large vegetable garden in our back yard, and a small flower garden in our front yard" makes perfect sense to an American. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 14:18, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I composed the following expression from a series of cognate words.

• curtilage-girded curtained garth courtyard orchard garden horticulture

Here are links to their Wiktionary entries.

• wikt:curtilage wikt:girded wikt:curtained wikt:garth wikt:courtyard wikt:orchard wikt:garden wikt:horticulture.

Here are links to their nearest entries in Online Etymology Dictionary.

• curtilage, gird, curtain, garth, courtyard, orchard, garden, horticulture

—Wavelength (talk) 15:19, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

In UK English a yard tends to have no grass or other plants in it, and to require very little maintenance (and possibly to be used as a dumping ground). It has a slightly negative connotation. A garden usually has plants in it, but that could the space is completely turfed over. Gardens are regarded as places to be, whereas yards are regarded as places to put things. --TammyMoet (talk) 15:34, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I was confused by many English books in my youth, because when I read the word 'garden,' I pictured a carefully manicured, tended, cultivated place, which didn't always create an accurate picture in my head. In the US, yards are places to be, and gardens are places to look at. :) I tried to think of what I would call an open space with no grass, possibly to be used as a dumping ground- "lot" is what came to my mind. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 15:48, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm still bemused by these shopping malls and down-market housing estates called "Bellevue Gardens", "Waverley Gardens", etc, where one will look in vain for a single blade of grass, let alone anything resembling a "garden". -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:40, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

The distinction between a garden and a yard is not necessarily absolute. See www.ehow.com/about_5100601_alternatives-grass-lawns.html (Alternatives to Grass Lawns | eHow.com; blacklisted). Another related page is Turn Your Lawn From Grass You Mow To Food You Grow.—Wavelength (talk) 16:58, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Some expressions derived from yard are barnyard, churchyard, classification yard, fiddle yard, livery yard, lumber yard, mating yard, rail yard, shipyard, tiltyard, wrecking yard, and yarding.—Wavelength (talk) 17:19, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

[I am correcting my spelling of "expressions".—Wavelength (talk) 05:50, 20 June 2010 (UTC)]

In UK English, "yard" now often implies a builder's yard or scrapyard - though a generation or two ago it was commonplace for houses to have a "yard", at least partly paved or concreted, rather than a "garden". A paved area in a garden is now usually called a patio. Ghmyrtle (talk) 17:33, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

One gardening show is Gardening by the Yard.—Wavelength (talk) 17:55, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

In the UK a "yard" would have a hard surface, usually of concrete or tarmac. 92.15.4.168 (talk) 20:42, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Down Pat

Riddle me this Language reference deskers. Does anyone know of the origin of the idiom 'down pat' as in 'I've got this skill pretty much down pat.'--Jabberwalkee (talk) 18:12, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

My short etymological dictionary doesn't have it, but I found this thread on a forum which cites The Dictionary of Etymology: The Origins of American English Words, Robert K. Barnhart (HarperCollins, 1995). "1578, perhaps a special use of pat (a light tap), in the sense of hitting the mark; and thus 'opportunely,' ready for any occasion." Only a perhaps though. Karenjc 20:48, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

Someone might want to add this to the Wiktionary article. I'm not familiar with how one is supposed to format things on Wiktionary, so... Vimescarrot (talk) 20:55, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

I notice that they don't have the alternative form "off pat" either. I've added this to Wiktionary. I'm not convinced by the etymology, but I can't find a better explanation. Dbfirs 21:37, 19 June 2010 (UTC)

It's also used in "a pat phrase". Which is a pat phrase. 213.122.18.200 (talk) 12:21, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

"Down pat" derives from the earlier use of "pat" to mean "In a manner that exactly fits the purpose or occasion; appositely, opportunely, readily, promptly." As to that use's etymology, OED says: "Apparently < either PAT n.1 or PAT v.1: perhaps immediately from the verb stem, as in the expressions to fall crash, come pop, go bang, etc. A frequent early use was to hit pat, as if to hit with a pat, i.e. with a flat blow; hence with fall, lie, come, etc." John M Baker (talk) 18:00, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

June 20

Adjective for Family resemblance

I vaguely recall there being an adjective that describes Wittgenstein's concept of Family resemblance so that you could say "adjective category" to mean a group in which the members do not all share a single one feature. Is there such a word or is my memory playing tricks on me? TIA --77.168.186.207 (talk) 00:08, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

It isn’t too circular for anyone to make a reasonable comment event if there is something that is useful in them? May be narrowing it down little bit? -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 19:11, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Heterological? No, not after rereading your question--ColinFine (talk) 00:18, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Mutual intelligibility of written languages using Chinese characters

This is just something that I'm curious about. How much can speakers of Chinese understand text in other languages that uses Chinese or Chinese-derived characters extensively? (e.g. Korean hanja, Japanese kanji, Vietnamese Chữ Nôm) 76.204.127.175 (talk) 01:23, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I can guess a little Japanese, but not the others. {{Sonia|ping|enlist}} 01:35, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Korean and Vietnamese no longer use Chinese characters. As for Japanese, like Sonia said, it's possible to get a general idea here and there (for example, if I pick up a Japanese science article I can find the "methods" and "results" sections, etc.) but not to really understand. rʨanaɢ (talk) 02:09, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I know; I was wondering about texts in those languages written before the widespread adoption of alphabetic writing systems. 76.204.127.175 (talk) 23:38, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Unfortunately there isn't an article in the English Wikipedia but if you know Chinese, Japanese or Korean you can read it up in their respective version of Wikipedia. Before mid-20th century it was largely possible to communicate using Chinese characters, provided you're literate in classical Chinese. Classical Chinese is rather different from even spoken/vernacular Chinese - kind of like the role Latin plays in the 19th century European scholar world. Since the start/mid-20th century though vernacular Chinese took over in China, and Chinese characters occupied a declining role in other East Asian countries and nowadays it's analogous to reading French articles when you only know English - there may be some words that you recognise and you might be able to get the gist of it, but there are lots of faux amis and it's not really intelligible. --antilived^{T | C | G} 10:22, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I can read Chinese. I used to study some Japanese, but not for a long time. I can get a pretty good idea of Japanese, but I can't get anywhere near an exact translation. If all you can read are the characters, you'll know a number of the words involved, but the relationships between them will be obscure, and some of the meanings will be a little bit off. For Korean, it's similar, though they use far fewer characters than they used to, so the level of understanding is lower. Chu Nom is a different question. When they were still used, there were both Chinese characters and Vietnamese native characters used, so someone who only read Chinese would have trouble reading a lot of it. Again, you might get the gist of it from finding words that you know, but there would be large gaps.

Anecdotally, I know someone who spoke Japanese, but not Chinese, who managed to communicate how he wanted his hair cut in writing to a Chinese hairdresser. The communication was not strong, but the idea got across satisfactorily. Steewi (talk) 01:21, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I've read accounts written by 19th century / turn of the century Chinese travellers who said that they communicated with Vietnamese travellers on the same ships via writing, even though they couldn't each other in speech. --PalaceGuard008 (Talk) 03:27, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Chu Nom is a whole different animal. Most of the characters are not modern Chinese characters and many more are "invented" to suit Vietnamese pronunciation. It's much more different from Hanzi than it is from Kanji. --Kvasir (talk) 15:45, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Forgetting one's language

Say that some person(let's call him John), who is of normal mental ability and average intelligence, acquires a language normally(in childhood) and becomes a fluent speaker. John is then separated from all human contact for a long time. Would John forget his language during this time of isolation? If so, how long would it take for him to lose competence, and could he regain competence if he later regained contact with people? 69.109.58.84 (talk) 04:29, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

It is possible, althouth it depends on how old he was when he was "separated". This is related to the issue of heritage languages, which a person learns (sometimes to near-fluency) in childhood but then perhaps doesn't use much as an adult (giving it up in favor of a more dominant language). Dr. Maria Polinsky has recently done a lot of research on attrition in speakers of heritage languages and you might be interested in looking into it. (see [1]) rʨanaɢ (talk) 05:10, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I spoke one language until I was about five, then emigrated to an English-speaking country, and now, decades later, I can't speak my first language at all. I can sometimes make out the gist of what others are saying, but even that ability has deteriorated with time. I can't see myself miraculously reacquiring my childhood language just by being around others who speak it. Clarityfiend (talk) 09:02, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

It's interesting to note you had another language to fill the gap; this "John" doesn't. Whereas you clearly think in English, ClarityFriend, John isn't going to use another language, but the original. So I expect he'd fare better. - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 10:29, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Anecdotally, it does undergo some attrition, but not necessarily permanently. Without use the original language is less frequently accessed in the brain, so the pathways are 'lost', so to speak, though they can be found again when necessary. In the anecdote I'm thinking of, the speaker didn't speak her native language for twenty years, because no one was around who spoke it. When she went back to her home place, she couldn't remember a lot of it at first, but it came back within a couple of weeks as she spoke it again. I suspect it's analogous with muscles. If you don't use them, they atrophy, but you can work them back up again later, for the most part. Steewi (talk) 01:25, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

When I saw Dances with Wolves I thought it very unrealistic that Stands with a Fist should speak English so haltingly. I thought it more likely that, depending on her age when she was separated from other English speakers, she would either not remember it at all, or speak it at the same level she did when she was separated from the others (i.e. if she was five when she was kidnapped, she'd still speak English like a five-year-old). But maybe it wasn't as unrealistic as I thought after all. +Angr 20:50, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The question seems to be a different issue from that of heritage language retention. The question is not about someone who grew up speaking a language and then moved to a place where that language isn't spoken, but another one is. The question is about someone of normal intelligence and fluency who is separated from all human contact. In that case I would suppose that "John" would not significantly lose his ability to speak the language. We experience the world in terms of language (in the ways we think and dream, for instance), so I would guess that John would continue to experience those things in his language. Let's imagine he's lost ona desert island. He would call the sea the sea and the beach the beach. He would identify trees as "trees," would probably think of his shelter as "home," would name the various foods he ate, and so on. And if the movies have taught us anything, it's that John would probably talk to himself, and would likely acquire some kind of pet that he would name and talk to as well. It's entirely likely that he'd go a little crazy from the extended isolation, and that might affect his ability to communicate, but if by "lose competence" you mean "lose the ability to communicate in his language," I don't think that would happen.

That all assumes John is an adult. There have been cases of feral children, however, in which children isolated from human contact from a very young age and with little experience of human language are permanently impaired with regard to human speech. Exploding Boy (talk) 16:21, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Meaning of the word "Tambja"

Dear Experts,

What is the meaning of the word "Tambja?"

"Tambja verconis" is a particular nudibranch or sea slug named after Sir Joseph Verco. Tambja also features with several other nudibranchs.

With kind thanks,

Bill

202.161.23.210 (talk) 09:48, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I can't answer your question, but the genus Tambja was established by R. F. Burn in "Descriptions of Victorian nudibranchiate Mollusca, with a comprehensive review of the Eolidacea", Memoirs of the National Museum, Melbourne 25 (1962), pp. 95–128, so I'd assume that paper is the place to look for an explanation of the name. Deor (talk) 13:38, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Word: Vuvuzela

I believe this word vuvuzela is Afrikaans. Can some please confirm? It is a foreign word that is not common in everyday English, correct? If so, I will apply italics as per Wikipedia's style guide for Vuvuzela. Thanks Davtra (talk) 10:51, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

This site claims it is a Zulu word. As for not being common in everyday English, Google gives me 7,300,000 ghits, which seems common to me. However, four weeks ago it was unheard of. Personally I think it's too common, especially in World Cup football stadiums! --TammyMoet (talk) 12:08, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Though you're not wrong by saying that, just want to point out that the number of Google search results (for what is now a universal term) won't necessarily tell you how common it is in "everyday English"... Google searches websites in all languages.203.208.110.63 (talk) 12:35, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

As a follow-up question, how long does it take and how widespread must the usage be for a foreign word to become part of the language? You wouldn't see vuvuzela italicised in any South African publication, likewise the Afrikaans loan word braai; you might see potjiekos italicised but this is also rarer these days. Might these words be considered part of South African English already? Zunaid 14:58, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

As an aside, some Afrikaans words are gaining currency in the UK because of coverage of sports events in South Africa such as the Rugby World Cup: I'm thinking of braai or boerewors, really. And now, of course, those blasted vuvuzelas! --TammyMoet (talk) 15:40, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your help.  Davtra  ^(talk) 03:43, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

South African English

What is South African English? Is it influenced by British English or American English? Is there a guide on how to write in South African English? Thanks, Davtra (talk) 11:02, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Given the history of South Africa, it is reasonable to assume that SA English is influenced more by British English, and also by Afrikaans rather than American English. There would also be influences from one or more of the local indigenous languages too. --TammyMoet (talk) 12:05, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

That will be the 'standard version', though. Since the World Cup has been on, there have been lots of BBC reporters going round interviewing the local people, and I'm finding a huge range of accents in there, from British-influenced to Afrikaans-influenced to American English (most notably with younger people) to accents probably influenced by local (non-Akrikaans) languages. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 18:18, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Could one suppose that the young people speaking English with an American accent does not have English as their first language (South Africa is after all multilingual) and are influenced by the English in movies and TV shows? The Great Cucumber (talk) 08:13, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, as far as I know, the younger people learn English at school (OR), but I can well believe that their English is influenced by the English in American movies and TV shows. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 20:53, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

• Our article, cunningly entitled "South African English", may also be of interest. DuncanHill (talk) 19:31, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Furthermore to the article, the South African Accent is typologically similar to the other antipodean English accents - Australian and New Zealand English. Steewi (talk) 01:30, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Steewi, you say "the other antipodean English accents". Not all Southern Hemisphere places are antipodean - at least, not from the British perspective. Australia and NZ are roughly (very roughly) in the ball park. South Africa is way off; its antipodes is in the Pacific Ocean north of Hawaii. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 02:33, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

The antipodes of the entire Southern Hemisphere is the entire Northern Hemisphere, though, so the name still stands. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 17:31, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I somehow doubt you can use 'antipodes' in that broad way. It would mean that, for example, parts of Indonesia are antipodes of each other, which nobody would accept. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 21:38, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Well, no, I disagree, because I didn't say 'any point in the Southern Hemisphere has any point in the Northern Hemisphere as its antipodes'. I was talking about the entirety of both hemispheres. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 18:09, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

As an aside, if anyone has specific questions relating to South Africa and/or the World Cup I'll be happy to jump in and try to answer. I've been kept busy across the Language and Entertainment desks these past few days :) Zunaid 14:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you for your help everyone. Just one more question. What is the preferred date format in South Africa? Is it DD-MM-YYYY? Thanks,  Davtra  ^(talk) 03:48, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

USA English

An American on a tv programme said he had spent 4 hours on the commode. Is that standard American English? Kittybrewster ☎ 11:33, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

"Commode" is not uncommon in American English; we might say it when we're trying to be a little delicate, since "toilet" has a slight connotation of vulgarity. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 11:49, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

It is a euphamistic word that you might find in written English when the writer doesn't want to write "toilet", either to be more technical or as a euphamism. As for speech, as a non-American I only ever hear it said by Americans on TV and the like. When it occurs in everyday language, it would really only be with the speaker's tongue-in-cheek. As a side, you'll find that Americans tends to avoid the word "toilet", for instance, signs will direct you to the "Bathroom" or "Restroom" (other countries simply use the word "Toilet"). 203.208.110.63 (talk) 12:45, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

That's true- in terms of good manners, we Americans would consider saying "I'm going to the toilet" only one step classier than "I'm going to shit." We do avoid the word 'toilet' except when we're talking about the plumbing fixture itself, i.e., "Do you know a good plumber? My toilet is broken." -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 14:11, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Of course, toilet itself (in the sense we're using it here) began as a euphemism as well. There's some information about that—and about U.S. and other usage, including the use of commode—at Toilet#Etymology. Deor (talk) 14:22, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I think it's worth mentioning that the American reluctance to use the word toilet is one of the things that encourages sniggering from Continentals. It reinforces the picture of Yanks as precious, puritanical Bible-thumpers who pretend they're either bathing or resting when they're off to "relieve themselves". I once had an American friend who insisted on calling toilets "facilities". Cute, for a short time, but considering how open the rest of the world is about such things, just one step too far into an American abyss. Maedin\^talk 16:17, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

... and in the UK (northern, at least) one would assume that the four hours were spent on a "night commode" - a chamberpot enclosed in a cabinet of sitting height! Dbfirs 16:51, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

To this southern Englishman, a commode is a chamberpot in a chair. If someone told me they had spent 4 hours on the commode, I'd assume that the staff in the old-people's home were being negligent. DuncanHill (talk) 17:13, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I might also recommend a good swig of Californian Syrup of Figs to shift the blockage. DuncanHill (talk) 17:16, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Of course Yanks are puritanical... you sent us all your Puritans, Britain. You can have them back any time you want them. You definitely made the right choice in shipping them away; they cause all kinds of problems. You can have Amy Winehouse back as well. -FisherQueen (talk · contribs) 18:47, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

But as Deor just indicated, saying "toilet" means pretending you're going in there to get dressed. We very rarely use an accurate term like "shitcan", and even "bog" is impolite. 81.131.16.251 (talk) 21:47, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I agree that many of my fellow Americans are uncomfortable with the word toilet. We will not say "I'm going to the toilet" or "I was sitting on the toilet". We would say "to the bathroom" or "in the bathroom" (even if the room in question has no bath). As for commode, I strongly disagree that it is "not uncommon" in American English, at least in the Northeast, Northern California, and Chicago—the parts of the United States where I have lived. I have never used that word to mean toilet, and I don't think anyone I've known has ever used it that way. To me, the word commode refers only to some historic toilet-like contraption used in premodern times. (I'm not even quite sure what it is without looking it up, but I'm guessing a seat with a hole and a chamber pot beneath it.) I think I have heard it used for toilet only on television, mainly for comic effect. Marco polo (talk) 00:19, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

My father (aet. 83) uses commode, not exclusively but not for comic effect, either. And I don't think that euphemism in this matter is restricted to Americans. "W.C." might be considered a euphemism, at least in certain contexts; and has "loo" fallen entirely out of use in the UK? Deor (talk) 14:48, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

No, "loo" is now almost universally acceptable in the UK, and avoids any presumptions of social-status associated with the toilet / lavatory split. A generation ago, it would have been thought slightly vulgar but can now be used in the politest circles. I believe it comes from "lieu d’aisance"[2] ("place of ease") which was the thing to say in the 18th Century. Alansplodge (talk) 17:25, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I wasn't saying that it's vulgar or unacceptable; I was saying that it's a euphemism, as much of one as "restroom" is. Deor (talk) 18:02, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I've heard "commode" for "toilet" often, though I'd say it tends to be used by some blue-collar types (as in Detroit, where I grew up). You'll also hear it occasionally in the South (which is where some of those blue-collar folks came from). Sometimes it seems intended as slightly ironic (the speaker's other term of choice might be "crapper"); sometimes as slightly genteel.

Searching for "bathroom commode" will produce lots of references for toilets (as in "how to install a bathroom commode" or shelving units meant to fit over or around a toilet), as well as for chairs and similar items intended as toilets for sick or handicapped individuals. So (straying ever so briefly back to the original question), I'm not sure it's "standard American English," but it's certainly inside a ballpark where "loo" would not be. --- OtherDave (talk) 21:38, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Couldn't find a good place to jump in so I started at the bottom. I have zero problem using the word toilet. To me "going to the bathroom" is just what you normally say. From California. And the only time I hear people use the word commode is when they're trying to be funny. My 24.4 cents. --mboverload@ 09:09, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I think it needs to be pointed out to some of the Americans here, that other English dialects don't just use the word "toilet" more often just 'cause, rather it is used instead of "bathroom". So the word "toilet(s)" often has the exact same meaning that "bathroom" has in US English - the room or area where toilet(s) are. So you will hear things like "I washed my hands in the toilets" or "A lady slipped over in the toilet", to which most people outside of America would't bat an eyelid. But say those phrases in America and you will get strange looks. 203.208.110.63 (talk) 12:55, 25 June 2010 (UTC)

Is it offensive to say "Kill the lights?"

I'm not a native speaker and I was wondering how offensive or otherwise inappropriate it is to say "Kill the lights", given the presence of the word "kill"? Not very when your audience are Millwall fans, but what if they are, say, children, or nuns? Thank you in advance. 83.81.60.233 (talk) 12:11, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Not at all (UK speaker). Kittybrewster ☎ 12:18, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I might avoid it if my audience is made up of the families of victims of murder or natural disaster or the like, but I don't think nuns would be bothered by it, and children would probably find it funny if they noticed it at all. +Angr 14:20, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

To my American ears, it is a normal, if slightly more dramatic way of saying "turn out the lights". It is not an offensive expression, though as Angr says, it would be insensitive and in poor taste at an event honoring people who have been killed. Marco polo (talk) 00:14, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

An interesting point about this idiom is that it means the same as "Save the lghts", which theater people say (or some of them do). --Anonymous, 03:57 UTC, June 22, 2010.

I would avoid it when in the presence of anyone recently bereaved, but otherwise I don't see any problem with it. --Tango (talk) 15:06, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

From my Google search for military sports physical metaphors, the second result is Calling a Time Out on Sports and War Metaphors.—Wavelength (talk) 02:26, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

It's a cool way to say turn off the lights. Usually used during a meeting or a large gathering when there's about to be a presentation. But I've used it just randomly at work and home as well. Nothing bad about it. I think it sounds a lot better than flip the switch or something. Californian--mboverload@ 09:13, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

When you turn the lights on again, do you "revive" or "resurrect" or "resuscitate" them?—Wavelength (talk) 14:34, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Best verb to use for "destroyed" in this context - German

Hello. I'm trying to work out how to convey the meaning "No city was left undamaged" in German. The best I've managed to get so far is "Es gab keine Stadt in Deutschalnd, die nicht beschädigt wurden". The trouble I'm having is that I'm not sure which past participle is best to use for 'destroyed'; can anyone offer a better suggestion?

Thank you. --88.111.3.197 (talk) 13:07, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Beschädigt is closer to "damaged"; zerstört is closer to "destroyed". Another option is Keine Stadt in Deutschland blieb unversehrt i.e. "remained whole/intact/unscathed". +Angr 14:18, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Also, in the OP's example, it would be "wurde" instead of "wurden" at the end. Rimush (talk) 16:49, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

If you are referring to wartime activities, then the verb "beschädigt" / "damaged" sounds like a euphemism. "Zerstört" / "destroyed" on the other hand implies a total destruction, which - assuming that WWII is the topic - was the exception. Angr´s suggestion may be the best option. --Cookatoo.ergo.ZooM (talk) 22:04, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I'd be reluctant to use "unversehrt" referring to a city. The word "unversehrt" sounds a bit like "not wounded". It can be used referring to people, and it can be used referring to some things, for example referring to seals (those things which show that letters have not been opened; I don't mean the animals). It is a bit difficult to explain which use of "unversehrt" sounds perfectly correct and which use does not. But as I am a native speaker of German, it may be interesting that I feel uneasy about the use of "unversehrt" referring to a city. -- Irene1949 (talk) 16:38, 27 June 2010 (UTC)

What is the English word

for the medical condition whereby a person cannot tell whether another person is lifting his toe(s) up or pressing it down? Kittybrewster ☎ 13:26, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

I would suggest 'digital positional proprioceptive deficit'. See proprioception 86.4.183.90 (talk) 13:46, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Insensitivity of the hallux. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:41, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Cycle to date

What does "Cycle to date" mean? For ex.: "Cycle to date usage messages" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.167.103.205 (talk) 23:48, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

That doesn't mean anything as far as I can tell. It sounds like something machine-translated from Japanese. Paul Davidson (talk) 00:45, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

The phrase "to date" is usually used to mean "up to the time of writing". e.g. "While edits to date have largely been constructive, we may see vandalism in the future." (Word usage mavens would probably say that such use is either redundant or excessively verbose.) You might also see signs like "Injuries to date: 123", indicating cumulative tallies. However, unless there is some further context to help, "Cycle to date usage messages" seems like poor wording. The best I can interpret is that it's list of all the usage messages encountered so far for the current "cycle". What this "cycle" is would be context dependent - in science fiction it's often used for a non-Earth day, or it may refer to some other recurring event that doesn't align with a conventional day/week/month/year period (e.g. the four years between World Cups may be considered a "cycle"). -- 174.24.195.56 (talk) 04:46, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

"Cycle" could also be a verb in the imperative mood here, telling someone to cycle the messages, i.e. to go through them in their entirety. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 08:19, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm remiss in not mentioning what is probably the most common use of "to date": Year-to-date. -- 174.24.195.56 (talk) 15:42, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Sounds like something someone in IT would say when they're waiting for a program to hit a predefined date. Never heard it before, though. --mboverload@ 09:14, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Is this from a cell phone carrier or something? It sounds to me like it's the number of messages (i.e. text messages) you've used so far in this billing cycle. -- Coneslayer (talk) 18:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

What is this grammatical error called?

I just saw this in an image's caption on Titanic (1997 film): "As one of the more romantic scenes within the film, Cameron drew the portrait himself." I see this error constantly, but I can never figure out what it's technically called; the second phrase has absolutely nothing to do with the first phrase, and the linking of them makes no logical sense. – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 23:53, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Dangling modifier. rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:57, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

(FWIW, it doesn't have "nothing" to do with the second clause; it could be reworded to something like "for what would be the most romantic scene of the film, Cameron drew the portrait himself"; "one of the most romantic scenes within the film, the portrait for which was drawn by Cameron himself"; etc. Various rewordings are available depending on the idea you're trying to get across.) rʨanaɢ (talk) 23:59, 20 June 2010 (UTC)

Ah yes, thank you! – Kerαunoςcopia^◁_galaxies 01:13, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

June 21

Etymology of the idiom 吹毛求疪

What does the 疪 part stand for? I'm just curious what the literal meaning is Kayau Voting IS evil 04:16, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

A machine translation of the chinese idiom is Gross for the flaws where 疪 means flaws. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:47, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

The idiom originated with Han Feizi (book) and it is found in #29大體. 疵 means fault, flaw, or scar. In this en version, it is translated "never blew off any hair to find small scars". Oda Mari (talk) 16:09, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually that's the translation for "不吹毛而求小疵", which means "not (不) blow on hair (吹毛) to (而) look for (求) small flaws (小疵, the correct character for the idiom)". So the literal meaning of the idiom is actually the opposite of that: to blow off hair and find flaws, which figuratively means nitpicky. There's also a Wiktionary page on this idiom. --antilived^{T | C | G} 02:18, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Side note: 而 does not mean to (in any meaning). It's a conjunction, which in this case means and (but it can mean or when the context demands it). Steewi (talk) 03:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Yea I probably shouldn't have done that per character translation thing, but if you take the phrase as a whole it makes the most sense to translate it to "to" since it is doing something in order for an outcome. --antilived^{T | C | G} 22:41, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks. I checked my Chinese textbook and I think it's meaning 3 of 而, which is '表示前後事件的轉折關係，可譯作可是、但是、卻. Kayau Voting IS evil 10:47, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

...Wait, did you say Han Feizi? What a coincidence! One of the texts we have to study in the last chapter is 曾子殺豬, and that last unit is also the one where we learnt 而. Intersting! :) Kayau Voting IS evil 10:49, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Don't stress over it. 而、可是、但是、卻 are often confused even for native speakers. It's a common school exercise for elementary school children. Talking about the literal translation of 而 is really "吹毛求疪" in this case. :) --Kvasir (talk) 21:47, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

You're assuming I'm an adult whose second language is Chinese. Well, you got both parts wrong - look at my userpage. :) I just left primary school, in fact. For some reason we're STILL doing these exercises. :P Nice one btw. Kayau Voting IS evil 09:00, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

You're assuming my comment was meant for you, it wasn't. It was more for the whole thread after Steewi's comment. --Kvasir (talk) 15:11, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

How can I get Unicode range of a Language.

Dear All,

I want to know the unicode range of following languages.

For example Japaneese scripts are Hiragana and Katakana starts from 0x400 and ends at 0x4ff. Like Japaneese what are the starting and ending of the below languages.

Russian, German, Italian, French, Spanish, Danish, Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish.

Thanks in Advance, —Preceding unsigned comment added by Santhosh4g (talk • contribs) 05:33, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Latin script characters for languages cross a number of different code pages...

• Basic Latin,
• Latin 1, starts at 00A0
• Latin Extended-A, starts at 0100
• Latin Extended-B, starts at 018F
• . . .
• Cyrillic, 0401 to 04E9
• . . .

Also, not all past language-specific standards map uniformly into current Unicode. Not as much a concern now but you should be aware if working with older files. Those fonts were generally for non-code page aware applications which mapped in the relevant code page right after Basic Latin. Only languages with their own unique character set, like Russian, have their own dedicated code page. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:29, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Microsoft Word 2007 provides a symbol table that gives the Unicode number for each character. The common language characters for English, Norwegian and Swedish are contained within the ASCII range 32...255 which is the same range in Unicode. Cuddlyable3 (talk) 15:59, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

The unicode page is the place to look. Zoonoses (talk) 23:03, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

-ian vs. -esque

Why "Beckettian", "Dickensian" and "Swiftian" but "Pinteresque", "Audenesque" and "Hardyesque"? Is there a pattern here? Is it something as simple as the stress in the latter group falling on the first syllable (of two)? --Viennese Waltz ^talk 14:07, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

As far as I know the former is more adherents/proponents of, the latter is more superficial resemblance. PЄTЄRS J VЄСRUМВА ►TALK 14:31, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I would have thought the meanings were pretty much interchangeable, actually. They both refer to resemblances but I wouldn't say the latter was any more superficial. "Pinteresque" for example very clearly relates to enigmatic pauses and implied threats. Just thought of another one, Kafkaesque. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 14:39, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I am noticing a pattern here. If appending -ian to a name produces a word that is easy to pronounce, that seems to be the form that is accepted. Otherwise, -esque seems to be preferred. Apart from that though, I agree that there is a subtle difference in meaning. I think -ian means something like "related to, after the manner of, following in the footsteps of", whereas -esque means something like "reminiscent of, having some of the same features as". For example, you could talk about "Shakespearian dialogue", which might well refer to dialogue written by Shakespeare himself. Or, you could refer to a "Shakespearian style", which might imply a style that could be mistaken for Shakespeare's writing. However, you might refer to a modern writer's "Shakespearesque use of word-play", which would not imply a writing style that could actually be mistaken for Shakespeare's. Marco polo (talk) 15:58, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Burchfield's New Fowler's Modern English Usage has a 800-word essay on this subject, and concludes that the choice of suffix (and there are several others) is mostly governed by euphony.--Shantavira|^{feed me} 17:37, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

There is also the suffix -ic used, as in "Platonic" and "Napoleonic." I suggest looking at the list of eponymous adjectives in English to see even more options. — Michael J 21:52, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Quoting the CALD: -esque is 'like or in the style of someone or their work', while -ian is 'connected with or belonging to the stated place, group or type'. -ic is just 'used to form adjectives'. :D BTW Orwellian too. Kayau Voting IS evil 15:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

more Deutsch help needed

I'm about to get started on tidying a very rough translation from German, and am stuck at the first sentence. Yes, you're right, that doesn't bode well.

The text I'm translating is from a book about Trier, and the section is on Saint Paulin Church. Here is the source text, Trier und seine Alterthümer, which is in a Fraktur typeface.

What I get for the first sentence is: "The church of St. Paulinus, formerly belonged to the wealthy founder of the same name and is only since 1803 parish church.", from "Die kirche zum h. paulinus gehörte ehemals dem reichen Stiste gleichen Namens und ist erst seit 1803 Pfarrkirche." (Stiste may be Stifte, but I helpfully get pencil or pins for that one!)

I'm sure (based on this book and other sources) that the church was built after the death of Paulinus of Trier, and so I'm confused as to how it could formerly belong to him. Is this an idiom or expression or the wrong translated words? Should "formerly belonged to...founder" have something to do with being dedicated to the patron of the same name? I've searched a German dictionary for other meanings and have vague ideas on possible rewordings but nothing firm.

The church was formerly collegiate and became a parish church in 1803 when the associated abbey was dissolved, but the abbey wasn't named after/didn't have anything to do with Paulinus (as far as I know, it was St Maximin's Abbey, after Maximin of Trier, the bishop of Trier before Paulinus, and before it was St Maximin's, it was dedicated to John the Evangelist).

Could someone who actually knows German pull something more understandable out of that sentence or at least point me in the right direction? If you want the following sentences, the rest of the draft translation is here: Talk:Saint Paulin Church. Thanks! Maedin\^talk 16:17, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

The German text actually says "Stifte", which in this context means something like "foundation" (if I have the English terminology correct, the "Stift" is the "college" that runs a collegiate church - see de:Stift (Kirche)). So the church did not belong to the founder but to the foundation of the same name. -- Ferkelparade π 16:25, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Pieces fall into place, thank you! Haven't come across a Paulinus foundation/college in any of my research, but that doesn't mean there wasn't one. Danke! Maedin\^talk 16:48, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

References to "the collegiate church of St. Paulinus" can be found here and here, for instance. It looks as though this book is what you need to get your hands on. Deor (talk) 17:47, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

I knew it had been collegiate, just didn't know of which/what! Thanks for finding that reference, GBooks seems to have a lot of it available...goody, :) Maedin\^talk 19:37, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

As a side note on the Fraktur long s and the Fraktur f: Fraktur usually uses ligature in ft combinations, while st does not. I hope this helps in avoiding further confusion of the OPs side. --91.6.11.209 (talk) 20:16, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Thank you, that is useful. There were several words that would not translate, for some it may be I mistook an f for an s or the other way around (zooming in interrupted the flow!). I'm sure that's not the fault with all, though, I intend to circle problems on the text later and bug the ref deskers even more! Thanks again, Maedin\^talk 20:38, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

what is the word for the 'negative feeling'

(imaginative, artificial, or real) that typically produces tension or hostility among two groups of people for agreement or harmony that usually arises out of historical or situational agreement in logical coherence among things or thoughts for quality of being inconsistent and lacking harmonious uniformities. Some sorts of such examples:

• Many mainland Chinese do not want that they to be identified as Pilipino.
• Métis do not want that they to be identified as Indians.
• Indians do not want that they to be identified as Inuit.
• Indians (origins of India) do not want that they to be identified as the members of outcasts.

These above examples are more or less out of some sots of cultural and educational attachment or advancement. But some other sorts are just about languages. Examples:

• Ukrainians, Polish, Mennonites, etc., have some sort of … (feeling?) toward Germans.

May be this is high and subtle in North America though not in Germany. There are many other examples. -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 00:09, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You could say people A feel distinct identity from people B. You could also say people A feel dissimilarity towards people B, but that doesn't carry the special nuance of being sensitive about being confused with them. "Rivalry" does, but unfortunately also implies being in competition with the other people. Would you mind putting some punctuation in your first sentence? It makes my teeth itch. 81.131.16.251 (talk) 22:49, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Indignance might come close to it. That's the feeling expressed when someone strongly denies something that's been said of them and is somewhat resentful that such a claim was ever made in the first place. -- 202.142.129.66 (talk) 23:28, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

A concept much in currency nowadays is that of the Other. There is said to be a concept of "otherness" that may relate to the notion that you might be suggesting. Bus stop (talk) 23:59, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

Ethnic hostility (the closest article I can find is Ethnic hatred). Clarityfiend (talk) 04:48, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The word is "insult" or "insulted" or "insulting." One may be insulted by another's ignorance {as in, You think I'm X because you don't know a damn thing about X or Y, but I'm actually Y, and I find your ignorance insulting) without indicating judgment of the incorrect category; or one could be insulted in an elitist way (You think I'm X, but I'm actually Y, which is much better than X). 63.17.50.124 (talk) 08:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Hatred or insult is too strong. I see what the OP is asking. Like Canadians, for the most part, usually feels offended when mistaken as Americans, or resent being falsely identified. Resentment is more an appropriate level. --Kvasir (talk) 22:41, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I didn't say hatred. "Resentment" is a by-product of being insulted. You can't feel resentment without feeling insulted. "I RESENT THAT!" means, among other things, "I interpret that as an insult." 63.17.32.100 (talk) 09:49, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

The word came slightly~few days ago by listing to radio but could not recall again. The first examples are just the translations of body languages because non-body languages can be inaccurate to translate their state of acuteness. The explanations may be too strong, but the consensus may be the tribalism to which one’s state of accord seeks an unstated consensus in counterpart. It is simply the historical group identity to which one is positively or negatively attached and is resembled the sense of accord regardless of one’s conformity to his/her counterpart.

If someone could add more to this post, that would be fine. Otherwise, this is good. Mr.Bitpart (talk) 02:05, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Verses in "An Mhaighdean Mhara" (Irish)

I've listened to several versions of An Mhaighdean Mhara on YouTube, and I'm confused by differences in the final verse. Two YouTube clips give these lyrics:

Tá an oíche seo dorcha is tá an ghaoth i ndroch aird

Tá an tseisreach na seasamh is na spéarthaí go hard

Ach ar bharr na dtonnta is fá bhéal na trá

Siúd chugaibh Mary Chinidh is í i ndiaidh an Éirne shnámh

Aoife Ní Fhearraigh's version (starts here at about 2:30) seems close (though what do I know? I don't speak Irish). When Máiréad Ní Domhnaill, Máire Brennan, and Máiréad Ní Mhaonaigh reach the last verse here about 2:40, what they sing seems different from the lyrics given.

I suspect someone pasted the lyrics into each clip from yet another source--so I'm wondering what Mairéad, Mairéad, and Máire are singing.

In a related vein, another source suggested that the refrain Siúd chugaibh Mary Chinidh is í i ndiaidh an Éirne shnámh could refer to the river Erne or to the sea, "eirne" being another word for "sea." Is that the case? --- OtherDave (talk) 22:02, 21 June 2010 (UTC)

They're simply repeating the first verse:

Is cosúil gur mheath tú nó gur thréig tú an greann;

An sneachta go frasach fá bhéal na mbeann;

Do chúl buí daite is do bhéilín sámh.

Siúd chugaibh Mary Chionnaith is í i ndiaidh an Éirne a shnámh.

To your second question, I too have heard that an Éirne can mean the sea rather than just the River Erne, but I can't find anything in the Dictionary of the Irish Language to confirm that. +Angr 06:15, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Re: repetition, there's nothing like overlooking the obvious, is there? My mind will be much more at ease as it floats with the tide. --- OtherDave (talk) 11:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

June 22

Possible dangling modifier

In the 2006 FIFA World Cup qualification article, there is the following sentence: The original distribution of places between the six confederations called for Oceania to be given one full spot in the final 32; however, this idea was seen as giving Australia a virtually certain place in the finals, being by far the strongest footballing nation in their region. To my understanding, there could be a blatant dangling modifier here (see a recent question on this page), but English is a foreign language for me and I'm not sure if the sentence is not actually all right. Is it all right, and if not, how could it be best revised? (This probably belongs to the respective talk page, but I opted for posting it here because it would certainly receive a faster response and, possibly, further elucidations.) --Магьосник (talk) 01:10, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

One problem as I read it: the antecedent of "being" is "place," though that's a grammatical quibble and most people would figure out the sentence means Australia. If I were editing it, I might put:

...one full spot in the final 32. However, this idea was seen as virtually guaranteeing a place in the finals to Australia, the strongest footballing nation in the region.

--- OtherDave (talk) 01:26, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Actually, I think the antecedent of "being" is "this idea", when the author meant for it to be Australia, so it certainly counts as a dangling modifier in my books. Paul Davidson (talk) 01:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Which book is that?

On the OP, because this is an utterance of a native speaker who has good grasp in language, isn’t it bit of pedantry that one looks further in to this composition?

On pedantry, however, the problem might be only the phrase ‘as giving Australia’ in the sentence, and the last clause is a grammatically-correct adjectival clause (modifier). Although a gerund is often used with a noun this way, because they are nouns (giving Australia), the complication can be cleared by adding a preposition 'to' as 'as giving to Australia' without changing the meaning of the sentence. Correct? -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 23:25, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

You could certain add "to," as suggested, but that does nothing for the awkward subordinate clause following the final comma in the original sentence. "Being" is moping around with neither a close-by subject nor a possessive pronoun to keep it company; what it modifies it at best unclear. I don't see "...as giving to Australia a virtually certain place in the finals, being by far the strongest footballing nation in their region" as much of an improvement in terms of either clarity or readability. --- OtherDave (talk) 00:20, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

If so, to pitch the anaphoric relation of the adjectival clause to its antecedent, this can turn like as stated before and the anaphora as 'being by far the strongest footballing nation in their region'--like,The original distribution of places between the six confederations called for Oceania to be given one full spot in the final 32; however, this idea was seen as giving Australia, being by far the strongest footballing nation in their region, a virtually certain place in the finals. Correct? -Mr.Bitpart (talk) 02:30, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Seeing "anaphoric" and "like as stated" in a sentence from someone worried about pedantry, I don't think I'll argue about what's "correct." As anaphor resolution points out in its technical way, it's difficult sometimes to figure out what an expression's referring to, which was part of the OP's question. Another part was to ask how best to revise the ungainly sentence. Now there are two choices. I didn't see mine as the best possible, but it beats a poke in the eye by Noam Chomsky. --- OtherDave (talk) 12:58, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I used OtherDave's suggestion to revise the sentence, but I also preserved the "by far" part. Now it goes as follows: this idea was seen as virtually guaranteeing a place in the finals to Australia, by far the strongest footballing nation in the region. Anyone could revise it further. --Магьосник (talk) 01:02, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Martian Language

I have to do my thesis about "Martian Language". I read your page on Wikipedia about it, and I saw that Wikipedia have a lot of information about this subject. Since this subject is quite a lot difficult and I haven't yet find a text written in Martian Language, so, if possible, I wish you help me. I look up the sites about Martian script translator and I bought a book written by Feng Yuh about Martian Language but find a text in Martian Language is quite difficult. Thank you for the helpfullness. Yours faithfully. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Francarara (talk • contribs) 08:11, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Note to editors: Martian language. --mboverload@ 09:16, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

And the Wikipedia Barnstar made of Illudium Q-36 goes to mboverload for keeping this little fella out of the equation:

File:Marvinthemartain.jpg

-- 78.43.71.155 (talk) 11:21, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

this webpage might help? You should use a Hong Kong-based search engine, in any case. Kayau Voting IS evil 15:08, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

'Dirty big' and 'dirty great'

I was just out in the garden minding my own business, when this dirty big/great dog came bounding out of nowhere and jumped all over me.

In that sort of sentence, the 'dirty' has nothing to do with the state of the dog's cleanliness. It's a sort of intensifier of 'big' or 'great'. I've looked in a few places but can find nothing about this use of 'dirty'. I'm sure it's colloquial and may even qualify as slang. I know it only from Australian usage, but it may occur elsewhere for all I know.

I'd be grateful for any information. Thanks. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 12:49, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

It's used in the UK: my experience is usually as 'dirty great' rather than with 'big'. [3] and [4] cite it as British English, but with no etymology; [5] and [6] make no mention. Bazza (talk) 13:17, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Yeah I was going to say, I'm British and I've heard "dirty great" and "dirty great big" but never "dirty big". It's slang, yes – and low slang, at that. You wouldn't hear it said on the playing fields of Eton, put it that way. --Viennese Waltz ^talk 13:20, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I've never heard it in American English. I know it only from Harry Potter. For example, Ron says at one point, "If you must know, when I was three, Fred turned my – my teddy bear into a dirty great spider because I broke his toy broomstick." +Angr 14:41, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The OED has it "Used adverbially as an intensive: very, exceedingly. slang." with earliest citations from 1920 (John Galsworthy), and 1943 (Dictionary of Australian Slang). DuncanHill (talk) 14:55, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

How interesting that Galsworthy uses it. He tended to write about upper class types, not the sort who would use this expression; maybe he has one of the Cockney chambermaids saying it downstairs. But how interesting that it's not recorded before 1920. It has a solid place in Australian English of a certain register, and I wouldn't have thought that anything an Englishman wrote in a novel as late as 1920 could possibly have had that influence. Obviously, Galsworthy was using an established expression and did not coin it. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:34, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The Galsworthy quotation is "'E wants to syve 'is dirty great 'ouse." It's from Foundations. DuncanHill (talk) 20:15, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

This reminds me of the American expression "big old hairy," used to describe any number of objects, emotions, or situations that aren't strictly speaking old or hairy. "My brother used to have this big old hairy Oldsmobile, but when the brakes failed and he rammed the garage door, my dad had a big old hairy fit." --- OtherDave (talk) 00:24, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Rarely heard "dirty big" either but my slang dictionary lists it. I would guess it is a minced oath, instead of saying "fucking big" or "bloody great" or the like, a placeholder is used that deliberately acknowledges that a dirty word has been hidden. Particularly likely is "damn great" being self-censored after the initial sound and changed to "dirty great", similar to the use of "sugar" as a replacement for "shit". meltBanana 00:45, 23 June 2010 (UTC) Oh and "old hairy" is pretty close to "Old Harry" a common name for the devil and frequently used as an oath. That makes for rather tenuous slang, but then slang perceived as obscene can get pretty tenuous. meltBanana 00:56, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Similar to the New England (or only Boston?) adverb "wicked" -- e.g. (baseball): "Nomar was a wicked good hitter!" 63.17.50.124 (talk) 08:36, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

What is the right word here

You call someone who displays honesty as honest, you call someone who displays bravery as brave, what should you call someone who displays integrity? Integral? Googlemeister (talk) 14:08, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

No that wouldn't work. Try principled, honourable, respectable, moral, upright, ethical... --Viennese Waltz ^talk 14:15, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

But none of those words, strictly speaking, are a full and accurate description of one showing integrity. Similar yes, but not quite the same. Googlemeister (talk) 21:10, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I just checked several dictionaries under www.onelook.com, and none of them shows an adjective corresponding to "integrity". So you just have to say that the person "has integrity" or a similar expression. English is like that. --Anonymous, 21:17 UTC, June 22, 2010.

Wiktionary mentions integrous. Rare - 0.01% "frequency in usage", whatever that means. Vimescarrot (talk) 22:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Integrous—that's what I would think, regardless of actual usage frequency.—6birc (talk) 12:51, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

You're entitled to say that if you like, but most people would wonder what you were talking about since 'integrous' is not a word in most people's vocabulary. As Anonymous says, the best answer is "person of integrity" or similar, rather than one burdened by the solitary shackles of singleness. -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 13:03, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Honorable, noble, trustworthy, upright, righteous. 63.17.50.124 (talk) 08:38, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Crystal Chrystal surname

Hi. Does anyone know the origin/meaning of the surnames above. Thanks.87.102.66.101 (talk) 18:49, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Have you read the article "Crystal (given name)"? Gabbe (talk) 20:23, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Yesno. I was asking about Crystal (surname) ! 87.102.66.101 (talk) 21:00, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

I suspect that it's the same surname as McChrystal (currently much in the news in the U.S.), which is an anglicized spelling of the Irish name Mac Criostail. That name means "son of Criostal", making "Criostal" apparently a first name in Irish, but I don't know the origin of it. Perhaps it's of the same Greek origin as the English girl's name Crystal mentioned above, or perhaps it's somehow connected with Críost "Christ" (the Irish equivalent of Christopher is Críostóir; maybe Criostal is a variant or nickname of Críostóir, I don't know), or maybe it's not related to either of those and the similarity is coincidental. Sorry I can't help you further. +Angr 21:48, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks - found this from that http://www.libraryireland.com/names/men/criostal-christopher.php and http://www.libraryireland.com/names/men/criostoir-christopher.php which seems a likely answer given the 'Mac' 87.102.66.101 (talk) 22:07, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

The Oxford University Press A Dictionary of Surnames, 1988, ISBN 0192115928, has them as a Scots name, from a Scottish pet form of the given name Christopher. DuncanHill (talk) 22:21, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Resolved

There also Jewish Americans whose ancestors immigrated from Eastern Europe named Crystal and Kristol etc. I am assuming their current spelling might be derived from Kristall or Kryształ but I found nothing conclusive online. ---Sluzzelin talk 22:39, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Interesting - there's a similar thing with the MacCarrolls, O'Carrolls (Irish/Scots) and various forms of Korol/Karl in eastern and central european surnames, both of which I've seen 'anglicised' to carroll, but with different original etymology meanings.

The nearest thing to "kristol" I can think of in an eastern european language is 'Krivy Rih Stal' (bent horn steel?)- which must be totally unrelated. Could the jewish surname be anything related to their trade eg http://www.kristallsmolensk.com/ (since having a name that derives from "christ bearing" seems unlikely for somone Jewish?

I did a bit more searching and found that there were definately jews living in Poland around 1900 with the surname "Kristol" (spelt like that). 87.102.66.101 (talk) 23:36, 22 June 2010 (UTC)

Kristol surname

ok Does anyone know the origin/etymology of the central/east european surname Kristol ? 87.102.66.101 (talk) 00:46, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I would guess it's from Kristall, the German word for "crystal." All the Kristols I know of are Jewish, and because Jewish people didn't traditionally have Western-style surnames, they got to pick their own when governments began requiring them in the late 18th and 19th centuries. That's why a lot of Jewish people have names like "Rosen," "Bloom" or "Gold." "Crystal" sounds like a pretty name, so it was probably chosen just for that reason. -- Mwalcoff (talk) 23:14, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

That was my guess too. I was just wondering if it came from an original name eg "Salomon" >> "Salmon".77.86.123.157 (talk) 00:26, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

June 23

translation

Is there any English saying for 口同鼻拗? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ciesse 203 (talk • contribs) 09:54, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Can you provide the meaning of the phrase? I've looked into theXiandai Hanyu Cidian but it isn't there. Is it slang? Kayau Voting IS evil 15:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Google gives over 1,200,000 hits for that specific character combination, but, surprisingly I can't find it in any Chengyu dictionaries. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 16:09, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I just checked with a Chinese colleague, and was told that the four-character structure made it look like a proverb, but she wasn't familiar with it, and it didn't make any sense. Literally, it translates "mouth with nose bend/contrary," so "the mouth argues with the nose?" A pointless argument? "Argument for argument's sake" is the closest thing in English to that idea that I can think of, or maybe "liking the sound of one's own voice" to imply that the argument is meaningless. Some jerk on the Internet (talk) 17:52, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

This is not a Chengyu, it's a Cantonese Xiehouyu (allegorical proverb) for expressing the situation where one argues against himself to no avail. It literally means "the mouth argues with the nose". See: http://www.douban.com/group/topic/2918008/ The above English translations are fine, depending on the context. --Kvasir (talk) 21:33, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Ooh, I assumed he meant mandarin. Makes perfect sense in Cantonese then, though I've never heard of the phrase. Kayau Voting IS evil 09:02, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

WP:RUS and BGN/PCGN do not concern names/toponyms or parts of them, which are written originally in Latin alphabet and are not Russian

Look at the talk about WP:RUS, please. As you see, I am convinced that WP:RUS and BGN/PCGN do not concern names/toponyms or parts of them, which are written originally in Latin alphabet and are not Russian. --Finrus (talk) 19:25, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

And your question is ....? -- Jack of Oz ... speak! ... 19:37, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

My question is, that is my opinion WP:RUS and BGN/PCGN do not concern names/toponyms or parts of them, which are written originally in Latin alphabet and are not Russian right or wrong. --Finrus (talk) 19:48, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

For what it is worth, I agree with your point, but the Ref Desk is not the place to continue the dialogue. Sussexonian (talk) 20:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

Poetry

Not sure if this belongs in here or in Humanities. I would like to find a really good website or (preferably) dead tree book that teaches the mechanics of poetical forms - meter, rhymes, etc. etc. for a variety of different types of poetry, including examples of each. WP actually has a bunch of really good articles, including an outstanding FA for poetry, but I'm looking more for something a bit more... "hands on" if that makes sense; something that is more of a manual or "how to" than overview. If it critiques specific or famous poems and/or provides exercises to try, that would definitely be a benefit. Any suggestions? I've been reading a variety of poetry and I can tell I'm not "getting" some of the mechanics being used, so I'd like to get a better grasp of that and/or try my hand at my own. Matt Deres (talk) 20:28, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

What sort of level? Detailed, or more introductory? I recently read a good one in the introduction category (with and odd, almost narrative style), but from what you say, a textbook-style work might be better? - Jarry1250 ^{[Humorous? Discuss.]} 20:45, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

A good textbook might be just the thing. All too often, they seem to be of the type that really should be ripped out and disposed of, though, hence my request for guidance :). Between WP and my dim recollections of English class, I think I'm past most of what would be covered in a introductory text... or at least, so I think. Let me put it this way - I understand what iamb is, but I don't always understand why it would be used in a particular instance versus trochee and I understand the difference between masculine and feminine rhyme, but I don't understand why some forms require you to alternate between them (such as classical French poetry) - what does alternating them "do" to the poem versus having them all, say, masculine? (Our article on Sonnet 20 actually goes into this, but the explanation kind of gets overwhelmed by conjecture about Shakespeare's sexuality). Matt Deres (talk) 21:55, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm working from memory, but The Book of Forms: a Handbook of Poetics, by Lewis Turco, had a daunting number of forms. Some of the examples were perhaps not the best. You can browse it via Google Books and see if it meets your needs. --- OtherDave (talk) 04:43, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Hebrew inscription

What does this Hebrew inscription say?

http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/photos/uncategorized/2008/08/17/shrine2_2.jpg

It is from Ezra's Tomb. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 21:26, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I'm not completely sure, but it goes something like this:

Eternally remembered will be the righteous man

???

A floor

of marble stones in the original place

of the burial of our lord Ezra the scribe

may he protect us, Amen, and paintings and basins of the women's section (?)

The dear lady Asi???

??? the wife of

??? Menashe

??? (acronyms that i don't understand)

??? day ???

of Kislev 5669 (approximately December 1908)

???

Sorry about all the question marks - i failed to read these parts.

It is probably a memorial plaque that says in whose memory the money for the improvements of the religious building was donated. --Amir E. Aharoni (talk) 14:14, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

More or less, yes.

The floor

Of marble stones in the place of ...

Our teacher Ezra Hasofer of blessed memory

And the paintings and ... of the court {surrounding it}

The honorable lady Asi

328 {around 1568}, the wife of

... Menashe

{more years and abbreviations}

I disagree with the previous editor about the year. Debresser (talk) 15:10, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Help in locating French book

I am wondering if anyone who frequents this page has access to the following book:

http://classiques.uqac.ca/classiques/wieger_leon/textes_historiques/textes_historiques.html

You may notice the website offers free pdf files of the first two volumes. However, I need information from volume three, which is still being prepared by the transcriber. The information I am looking for appears on pages 1,880 to 1,890. It should have something to do with the Kaifeng Jews.

If no one has access to the book, I was wondering if someone wouldn't mind helping me contact the transcriber for the info. Fluency in French is obviously a must. --Ghostexorcist (talk) 22:00, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

I did find another book about China by the same author in BNF's Gallica system. The BNF has your book in its collection: http://catalogue.bnf.fr/servlet/biblio?idNoeud=1&ID=39451975&SN1=0&SN2=0&host=catalogue but hasn't scanned it. Markussep ^Talk 09:26, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Japanese News Source for Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood announcement

Not sure if this is the right Ref Desk to ask but here goes...

• Can anyone translate this enough to determine if there is a news announcement of a 64th episode of the anime show Hagane no Renkinjutsushi: Fullmetal Alchemist (鋼の錬金術師 FULLMETAL ALCHEMIST, Hagane no Renkinjutsushi: Furumetaru Arukemisuto, abbreviated as 鋼の錬金術師FA) which is also known as Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood ?
• This image was obtained from the Anime News Network as one of their sources.
• Also, is there any way to determine the name of the publication in the image?

Thanks, 66.102.205.16 (talk) 23:04, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

• The 64th episode is only mentioned at the bottom left, where it has the name of the episode followed by a date (July 4th).
• "This image was obtained from the Anime News Network as one of their sources."? I'm not sure what you are asking here, but the Anime News Network is not mentioned anywhere.
• I can see no way of knowing which publication this image came from. Sorry I can't be of any more help here. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 23:23, 23 June 2010 (UTC)

KägeTorä - (影虎): Thank you for the assist. The reference to A.N.N. was simply to advise where I had gotten the image from, just an FYI. A.N.N. is a sort of (minimal rules) wikipedia for anime. Would you do me one more favor and help fill in the following based on the text in that image:

EpisodeNumber = 64

EnglishTitle = ______________________________ ( example: A Fierce Counterattack )

KanjiTitle = ______________________________ ( example: 凄絶なる反撃 )

RomajiTitle = ______________________________ ( example: Seizetsunaru Hangeki )

OriginalAirDate = July 4, 2010

I realize the English Title may be only an approximate translation.

This information will help me in searching Japanese sites for a WP:RS.

Thank you. 66.102.205.16 (talk) 05:06, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Sure. In the space where the title would be (were it one of the other episodes listed), it only says 最終回 (Saishūkai), which just means 'Last Episode'. I don't know if it has a specific title (unlike the others), and a search on the internet hasn't revealed one. --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 11:44, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Another source

Could I please ask for one last translation: www.hagaren.jp/news/index.html#n144 I tried Google Translate but it leaves it unclear because even though the text is in an area marked news, it seems to be asking a question. Is that a qwirk of Japanese grammar? 66.102.205.16 (talk) 06:09, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

I assume you mean the top posting in that link (the one above the posting about 'Guririnrajo'). In which case, it says:
[Title]: "The Final Episode of Full Metal Alchemist - 64th Episode to be broadcast on July 4th (Sunday)"
"As for Full Metal Alchemist, the story which will soon plunge into its climax, the date of broadcast of the final episode has been decided! The 64th Episode, the final episode, will be broadcast from 5pm on Sunday, July 4th! Don't miss it!!" --KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 12:00, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

June 24

"Taal" language?

Writing a footnote to the article on Edmund Ironside, 1st Baron Ironside tonight, trying to untangle the mystery of just how many languages the man spoke, I came across an article by Harold Nicolson which noted that during the Boer War, he "mastered Afrikaans and Taal". According to my Afrikaans-speaking source, "taal" is merely the Afrikaans word for "language"; it's not a language in its own right. I did find one indication that it might sometimes be used to refer to the creole Tsotsitaal, but this seems to be a twentieth-century urban development and not something he'd be likely to have encountered.

We did consider the possibility that it was garbled - "Afrikaans language" is "Afrikaanse taal", which might have been misheard or misread as "Afrikaans and Taal" - but the author was English, writing about a personal acquaintance of his; I can't imagine the story having been passed onto him in Afrikaans!

So... was there likely to have been a seperate dialect known by this name at the time of the war (1900) or the time of writing (1940)? Is our author just confused? Any suggestions appreciated. Shimgray | talk | 01:09, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

These results mention an acquaintance of Churchill from the same period speaking Taal and Afrikaans (or "the Kaffir language") I think Taal is the early form of Tsotsitaal or Fly-Taal. While Afrikaans was seen as a slow development from Dutch via Cape Dutch and was the prestige language, Taal was a creole with a large dose of Dutch and far more slangy. Your count of languages depends entirely on your assessment of their armed forces. meltBanana 03:13, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for that - it's good to see someone else used them distinctly! Some success in the OED today - "...in English, ‘the taal’, spec. applied to the Cape Dutch, or Dutch patois spoken in South Africa", all citations c. 1900 +- a few years. It seems "taal" was used for Cape Dutch to distinguish it from the other branch of what would become Afrikaans, or possibly just synonymous for both. The term appears in general use in English simultaneously with "Afrikaans" - which was previously just called Dutch, low Dutch, etc -

As to Fly-Taal or Tsotsitaal, I'm not sure they do link up - per this, it looks like a mostly urban dialect among black speakers, whilst the original source has him using Taal to pass himself off as a Boer farmer. Shimgray | talk | 12:49, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

This 1906 book chapter talks about two kinds of "Taal:" the common vernacular spoken by Afrikaners, and an artificial Dutchified Taal taught in schools and used in some written works. Not sure which would be called "Afrikaans" in your source, if this is the two-language situation it refers to. --Cam (talk) 13:13, 24 June 2010 (UTC)

Future languages of Wikipedia

As far as I know, new languages, before becoming official versions of Wikipedia, are stored in an "incubator" until they are big enough. Is there somewhere a list of languages that will be admitted in the Wiki family in the near future? --151.51.25.173 (talk) 16:35, 24 June 2010 (UTC)