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August 22

Cold remedy from the 60s

I was talking to someone the other day about a cold medicine that was used in the 60s (and maybe later) in the UK where a liquid was heated in a little pan above a tea light candle. This was left in a child's room and the vapour was supposed to aid breathing. We remember being warned that the liquid was extremely poisonous and could be absorbed through the skin - and children had died after spilling this on themselves. We could remember all this, but not what this medicine was. Does anyone else remember this? -- Q Chris (talk) 07:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't remember it, but I imagine there are things which would work as a decongestant in vapor form which you could overdose on if you drank it, although absorbing enough through the skin to be fatal seems less likely. Peppermint oil is one example. Menthol is the active ingredient, so see Menthol#Toxicology. I once ate a bag of menthol couchcough drops, and my entire jaw went numb, so I can see how you can overdose on it. StuRat (talk) 08:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Couch drops? It's a wonder you didn't sofacate.  :) -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:56, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Is that a criticism of my spelling, couched as humor ? :-) StuRat (talk) 20:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Criticism? Never, Stu. I know your spelling is much better than your orthography would indicate. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:25, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

That sounds like Vicks. - Cucumber Mike (talk) 08:17, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

There might be something in inhalant that rings a bell. --ColinFine (talk) 08:24, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Note that Vicks VapoRub is intended to be used on the skin. Its main active ingredients, camphor and menthol, create a sense of heat and release a vapor that relieves congestion as it's inhaled. It certainly avoids the need for a live flame or other heating element near a sick child. The page is tagged as lacking secondary references, but it does mention not putting it on mucous membranes. -- Deborahjay (talk) 10:42, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It's supposedly very important not to put Vicks VapoRub in your nose. Not because of the active ingredients, but because of the petroleum jelly. If you get petroleum jelly in your lungs, it basically stays there forever, and causes a sort of chronic pneumonia. http://www.oucom.ohiou.edu/communications/familymedicine/archives/2001/2452(fm).html --Trovatore (talk) 19:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Camphorated oil perhaps? --TammyMoet (talk) 10:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

There was something called Wright's Vaporizing Fluid that seems to fit the bill. I remember selling the burners when I worked in Boots as a teenager. Googling Wright's Vaporizing Fluid brings up reports of acute poisonings.83.104.128.107 (talk) 11:54, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Neat. There's an eBay auction with some good photographs here.

There's definitely a candle involved. I love old contraptions like this.

It's not hard to imagine that little brown bottle winding up in a medicine cabinet with all the other little brown bottles and someone making a terrible mistake. APL (talk) 13:51, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

That's the thing, I remember the evaporator! -- Q Chris (talk) 21:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Geez, what a terrible product. "Let's just put an open flame and poison in a child's room and see what happens. And is there any way we can add high explosives, while we're at it ?". StuRat (talk) 20:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

This sounds like a vaporizer, a type of humidifier that I think Vick's stuff could be added to and theoretically permeate the air. We used to receive that kind of treatment when I was a young'n. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Where did I go wrong?

Kitty, you're an experienced Wikipedian. You know very well we can't comment on this
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
What to do next? User:Kittybrewster/sandbox Kittybrewster ☎ 09:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

General Silence Regarding William Godwin in American Schools and Who to Officially Register a Complaint With

Why are Americans not taught in K-12 or college about William Godwin and the Marquis De Condorcet. Is it not important to know that they are responsible for women and minorities being allowed to attend public school? What official should I be complaining to that could actually change the curriculum, would that be the secretary of education, the texas school board or someone at the state level? — Preceding unsigned comment added by CensoredScribe (talk • contribs)

There is only so much that can be taught over those years - and curriculums have to balance the most important messages that children need with the number of hours of tuition available. If you spend an hour teaching them (and two more hours testing them!) about Godwin, that's an hour less that you can spend teaching math or chemistry or physics. Knowing who said those things is not as important as understanding the consequences of what they said on the world. It's much more likely that you'd be able to get a general review of political systems onto the curriculum - which could indirectly include anarchism and so forth. The specifics of what relatively obscure thinkers had to say on these matters is probably best left to very specific courses at the college level. SteveBaker (talk) 13:27, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Is there any evidence that they are that influential. Our article on William Godwin doesn't even mention education. "Tax-supported schooling for girls began as early as 1767 in New England" (History of education in the United States) would seem to predate both. Rmhermen (talk) 16:36, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

School curricula in the US are set at the state and local level. One might as well ask what local town councils are doing about a Mars mission. μηδείς (talk) 19:22, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Indeed, I think it's fair to say that Condorcet had a much bigger impact on voting systems, via the Condorcet method and Condorcet's jury theorem. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I think I would start at the local school board and see what they say. States mandate certain parts of the curriculum, but they don't (usually) specify every single thing that is and is not taught. If you don't get any interest at the local level, you could step up through county and state boards of education. SemanticMantis (talk) 19:38, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Are 'the decades after leaving school' not for learning about such things? (And indeed the range of things to be found on WP's main pages.) Jackiespeel (talk) 21:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

• The state I grew up in required two years of American History to graduate, which amounted to The Seven Years War to Pearl Harbor. British/European history prior to 1776 is viewed as common history. World history in 8th grade consisted of the Fertile Crescent, Greece, Rome, and England through the Stuarts. European history from 1776 until 1914 is a nullity for most Americans, as it had little direct impact on us. We have heard of Victoria and Napoleon. Until reading this thread, I knew Godwin was some sort of British intellectual. I knew about de Condorcet because I took The Age of Revolution (through 1848) as my (single required) history elective for undergrad. Otherwise my knowledge of the era is from A. N. Wilson and watching costume dramas. μηδείς (talk) 00:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Two songs in one

How do you say when you play two songs in one like "Come Together/Lose Yourself", mixing parts of both songs to make one. I did one with The First Time by The Script and Still Haven't Found... by U2, but I don't know the English definition for that. Can anyone help me? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 12:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Mashup? --some jerk on the Internet (talk) 13:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

let me read the article. I have one pict like the one with John lennon but it's Lennon and Bono :P Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 13:59, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think that's it. I mean... like when I sing the first verse of the The Script's song and then I sing the chorus of the U2's song. As both have similar chords. My mix turned out to be very good. Do you understand now? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 14:02, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Like the one they made in Glee with "It's My Life" by Bon Jovi and "Confessions Part II" by Usher. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 14:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Medley (music) -- Finlay McWalterჷTalk 14:08, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks! Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 17:12, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Are you talking about singing them consecutively, as with a medley? Or singing them concurrently, as with Old Folks at Home and Dvorak's Humoresque #7? ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 06:44, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I understand that the kids of today call it a "mash-up". --TammyMoet (talk) 07:56, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah some jerk on the internet already said that. --Viennese Waltz 08:09, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

@Baseball Bugs: I mean this: Singing the first verse of the first song and then switch to the chorus of the 2nd and then again the first song and end with the 2nd. Like... She is.... (the rest of the line) While I'm drinking Jack all.... (the rest of the line)... And we don't know how... (the rest of the line until the end of the first verse)... that we're meeting for the first time... (and then the chorus of the 2nd song)... But I still Haven't found what I'm looking for... Get it now? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 12:19, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

That definitely qualifies as a "medley". The term "pastiche" might work also, though I'm not altogether sure of that, not being an expert in this area. ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 14:40, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I stick with medley. I think! A guy did one of those in one of the Voices UK episodes. With Come Together and Lose Yourself. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 18:04, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

If that question's done, does anyone know what the concurrent one is? If I take the melody line from a tune, replace it into a different tune and transpose them together, bar-for-bar, what did I do? Sometimes I get asked about my MIDI hobby, and I'd like to give a concise term for that part of it. Not mash-up. There must be a more traditional music (as opposed to recorded music) term, but Google fails me. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:27, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

I found xenochrony through the mash-up article (thanks), which is very close, but still more to do with the sounds than the notes behind them. Plunderphonics is also quite close. InedibleHulk (talk) 04:33, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

"wire-wire"

What do they mean by this phrase here?Curb Chain (talk) 12:53, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It's an abbreviation that should be read as wire-to-wire. It is used to describe a runner who leads the race from beginning to end; see for example this story. (The term is also frequently used in horse racing.) TenOfAllTrades(talk) 13:37, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

What is the etymology?Curb Chain (talk) 22:17, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

[1]. TenOfAllTrades(talk) 22:21, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

When to switch to spare camera?

You might remember that I have recently posted about being worried about breaking the shutter on my Olympus E-620 DSLR, which is already well past its promised shutter lifetime. I've become accustomed to Olympus E-series DSLRs, but they are no longer on the market, except for the E-5, which I could never afford. So I bought another E-620 as a spare camera well in advance. It seems to be in much better condition than my old one. When should I switch to actually using it? Or should I keep it in its box, high up on a shelf, until my old one finally breaks down? I only bought the camera, not any lenses, so switching between cameras isn't going to be a trivial operation, but easy nonetheless. JIP | Talk 14:57, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Could you get the shutter repaired if it breaks? I had my Ricoh KR5 (which I bought with my first pay packet in 1979) repaired a couple of years ago and it's as good as new. It's also not the oldest SLR I own by any means; Exakta Varex from the 1950s which I use regularly. Perhaps DSLRs are as robust as SLRs... --TrogWoolley (talk) 18:50, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Probably keep the old one going. However, I suggest you test the new one from time to time, and take it with you when you go on a long trip - one from which it would be inconvenient to return home just for the replacement camera. Astronaut (talk) 19:13, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

This seems like a good plan. I'm going to Mallorca for a week on a month from now, and I'm planning to take about one to two thousand pictures during the entire trip. Going back to Finland in the middle would be disastrous - it would cost me about 400 € and take one full day. So at least there I will take both cameras. But while I'm staying in Finland, I'm going to keep using my old camera, only taking the new one along if there's something important I really need to photograph. JIP | Talk 19:30, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Does editing wikipedia look good on a college application?

I'm assuming the addition to the article is still up at the time and the editor reveals their screen name so every edit can be looked at. — Preceding unsigned comment added by CensoredScribe (talk • contribs) 16:21, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I think it will be hard to find refs for this, but am happy to be shown wrong about that :). Anyway, it probably couldn't hurt your application, but I doubt it would do much good. Perhaps the way to get the most positive benefit would be to discuss it in the application essay (if there is one). Stuff about the importance of education, volunteering for the the greater good, how this helped you work in collaborative groups, learn research skills, how to evaluate WP:RS, etc. Actually, now that I've written that, it sounds pretty good: I wish all my students had prior experience editing/improving WP. Good luck! SemanticMantis (talk) 16:39, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

It depends what you are doing! If you are writing bad things on Wikipedia, then probably not. After I have become a member of the WMF Board, I intend at some point to seek political office, and hope that people will look kindly on my edits to the encyclopedia and contribution to its governance. If you are able to write coherent articles that are suitable for an encyclopedia then it could certainly imply you are capable of studying. However, many parts of Wikipedia may suit applications to a debating society instead. Horatio Snickers (talk) 19:14, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

And we should also use WP:INDENT correctly, so that we know who you're responding to. I am most certainly not applying to any colleges ;) SemanticMantis (talk) 19:33, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

Would acquiring a Wikipedia:Barnstars be useful? Jackiespeel (talk) 21:43, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I doubt it. Interest in collecting barnstars (and edit boxes) is, broadly speaking, a good indicator of immaturity. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:05, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I believe that the two articles that I brought to WP:FA status helped me in my application to my most recent job. That indicates that a certain standard of writing skills has been reached. Just general editing doesn't really prove that any particular standard has been reached - and it would require your potential employer to spend a TON of time following your edit histories and so forth. I can't see that happening. But if there is a simple "I reached this testable level of achievement" - like an FA or two - then I think it's something I'd take into account on a resume. SteveBaker (talk) 22:35, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that expecting people who look at college applications to spend time sifting through a Wikipedia contributions list is unwise. As Steve suggests, either a brief mention of which articles you got to FA (or even GA), together with a brief explanation of what FA is, or else, even if you didn't get something to FA, you could mention something like "including almost completely re-writing Wikipedia's article about the history of Sicily" or "about photosynthesis" or whatever. Even if they don't know much about Wikipedia, this gives them a chance to take a quick look at the sort of thing you were involved in, and also the chance to ask more about it if they should happen to interview you.

By contrast, statements like "I spend a lot of time vandal fighting on Wikipedia and have rollback privileges" is more likely to damage one's college application. -Demiurge1000 (talk) 00:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

And most important of all never show them which article you have edited more than any other. Mind you I was a little surprised at some of the other pages I had edited a lot. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 06:06, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

So the activity category of 'strategic activity across Wikipedia/the Wikiverse in general' emerges. Jackiespeel (talk) 09:20, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I would imagine that the age of the people reading the application are going to affect the understanding of what Wikipedia is. While there are plenty of older editors, User:JackofOz and myself for example, the younger editor is the norm. So I would suspect that the older reader of your application is going to have less understanding and less appreciation of what is done here. CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 15:52, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Short answer: FUCK NO. Do you really think that college admission boards really care what you've done on Wikipedia? Just stick to the traditional stuff, like volunteer work, internships, sports achievements, high school extracurricular leadership positions, and family ties to the school in question. Herzlicheboy (talk) 17:39, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

It may well depend on whether you can show that you don't edit Wikipedia all the time. If you can show a balanced and mature pattern of behavior, in which constructive editing on subjects on which you are interested and/or knowledgeable plays some part - but doesn't dominate your life - it would probably be looked on favorably. If they thought you were going to spend all your time on here rather than studying properly, then no. As others have said, they are unlikely to know what a GA or FA is, or the level of commitment or knowledge it entails, without a brief explanation. Ghmyrtle (talk) 18:03, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, what the above dude said sounds good . . . IF you can convince the board that you don't edit Wikipedia all the time. However, if I were you I'd be worried that even mentioning Wikipedia on an application or essay might make the board think that you have an unhealthy emphasis on wikipedia in your life, which is not a good thing. Herzlicheboy (talk) 18:57, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

(reset) I think 'Wikipedia editing' (and to a lesser extent 'editing in the wider Wikiverse') is so ubiquitous that it is not worth commenting on - unless one can present it as part of a wider project. Jackiespeel (talk) 21:38, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Old baby powder brand

I recall my mother telling me that I was named Samantha after the character from bewitched and a brand of (I think she said) baby powder. I haven't been able to find anything out about this brand and was wondering if anyone has heard of it before. If it helps, we are originally from England but I was born in Germany in 1987. 63.95.64.254 (talk) 22:10, 22 August 2013 (UTC)

I grew up in England in the 1960s and remember Bewitched being very popular on the TV. I recall that the American names sounded very outlandish - Samantha and Darren were otherwise unknown here as far as I know. I don't recall a baby powder called "Samantha" and a Google search has failed to find anything. However, it was a "trendy" name for a while and it wouldn't surprise me if it was a short-lived product name. Alansplodge (talk) 12:41, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

How about powder named after their daughter, Tabitha? μηδείς (talk) 16:33, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Could be, she did say that if I wasn't Samantha I would be a Tabitha. 63.95.64.254 (talk) 19:34, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

True story: I knew a woman who named her kids Samantha and Tabitha, and wondered if she had boys if she would name them Darren 1 and Darren 2. :-) StuRat (talk) 20:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Parents are frequently very bad at naming their kids. I knew a guy named Brien O'Brien. Everyone called him "Bob". SteveBaker (talk) 20:45, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Could the baby powder have been under a German (or other language) variant of Samantha? CambridgeBayWeather (talk) 21:13, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I doubt it as we were only in Germany because my Dad was in the army and what little Germany they knew was for his job.63.95.64.254 (talk) 14:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

August 23

Geneology of Arthur T. Vanderbilt II

The question on genealogy can be answered separate from attributing unsourced claims about the subject's psychology in the question; see WP:BLP
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
I just finished reading his book, "Fortune's Children", a scathing account of the Vanderbilt family from Cornelius on down. I know that he is a practicing attorney in NJ and a published author, but I'd love to know from which family line he descended and what made him so bitter toward his ancestors. I've checked everywhere, but can't find him or his father in any of the family trees. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.76.3.102 (talk) 16:02, 23 August 2013 (UTC) We have no source saying this person is bitter. See WP:BLP. μηδείς (talk) 05:07, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Our Vanderbilt family article has a Vanderbilt family tree (of sorts) - but all we know is that this guy (let's call him "Arthur II" for short) is "a distant cousin". We have an article about the prominent Chief Justice Arthur T. Vanderbilt (let's call him "Arthur I") - and according to Amazon's review of "Fortune's Children", Arthur I was the Arthur II's grandfather. Arthur II's book "Changing Law a Biography of Arthur T Vanderbilt" would be a good place to look because it would presumably describe Arthur I's family tree. All I could find was that Arthur I married Florence J. Althen of Newark in 1914. They had three daughters and twin sons.

Arthur I was son of Lewis Vanderbilt and Alice Leach. Sadly, neither of those figure in the family tree of our Vanderbilt family article either...so "distant" is a good word for Arthur II's relationship to the main Vanderbilt line.

rootsweb.ancestry.com lets us track back through the family tree: Lewis Vanderbilt was a telegraph operator - so I'm guessing that he certainly didn't inherit much of the family fortune - and Arthur I evidently got where he did through hard work and having a genius-level legal mind. Arthur I's father was Levi Vanderbilt (also not in the main family tree) and his father was William P Vanderbilt (still no connection), and his father was John Vanderbilt (nope, not here either). John died before the uber-famous Cornelius was born, John's father was another John and his father was Jeremyas Vanderbilt - and HIS father (Aris Janse Vanderbilt) was son to a Dutch immigrant Jan Aertsen Van Der Bilt (from the city of "Bilt")...so Arthur II's family line does not seem to intersect with any of the famously powerful and wealthy Vanderbilts.

Jan Aertsen was the great-great-grandfather of Cornelius - one of his sons was the ancestor of Cornelius and all of the more famous Vanderbilts - the other was the ancestor of Arthur II - and that's the last relation they have in common...so yeah..."distant" cousin hardly covers it! SteveBaker (talk) 20:32, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Sourcing Movie Reviews on Wikipedia

Hi, question: Can I use "RottenTomatoes" and "MRQE" as reliable sources for articles here? Like if I wanted to write a section on how a movie was critically received? Thanks. Herzlicheboy (talk) 17:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

RottenTomatoes and MetaCritic are cited on nearly every movie review, but only their aggragation of professional critics' ratings. I've never seen MRQE cited and I'm not familiar with the site (which I can't access right now). If it creates an aggregate rating, then I would say it's only reliable if all the sources it uses for its aggregate rating are themselves reliable sources. It is not mentionned in the list of reliable sources for Wikiproject Films. IMDB is considered a questionable source on that same page. Effovex (talk) 19:08, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Ok, thanks for the heads and and the links. I also found this: Wikipedia:Rotten_Tomatoes_and_Metacritic which is good info for film articles editing here. Also, MRQE was way more popular during my youth, back in the days of the "old internets" like late 90's to early 2000's, back before Rotten Tomatoes really got popular.Herzlicheboy (talk) 19:22, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

Big brother is jealous

I don't know if you can answer this here but... I shall ask anyways, you can close this if it doesn't apply to the rules. What's the right way to deal with a boy who is jealous of his newborn little twin sisters. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 19:23, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

That should be "newborn little twin sisters". μηδείς (talk) 02:15, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks Medeis :) Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 13:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Sibling rivalry has a section Sibling_rivalry#Prevention which seems to be a good starting point. There are five references linked from that section that should be your next port of call. SteveBaker (talk) 19:29, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I particularly agree with "give each child individual attention". In your case, one parent can watch the twins while the other spends time with the big brother, preferably at a different location. This prevents the parent with the son from having their attention diverted away by the twins, angering the son. And the parent with the son shouldn't even mention the twins, unless the son brings them up first. StuRat (talk) 20:28, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

But StuRat, couldn't the girls reject the parent who doesn't spend much time with them in the future? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 13:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Alternate. StuRat (talk) 14:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks :) Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 15:01, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Of course, a breast-feeding mother may need to spend more time with the babies, but could try to spend time with the older kid when the babies are asleep. StuRat (talk) 01:26, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

StuRat, all the rushing around for the birth (I mean, when the mother is going to have the babies and they have to go to the hospital and everyones is looking after the mother) might leave the boy feeling excluded. Is there any way to prevent this? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 17:47, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

When my wife and I went to the hospital for our second child, we had her mom come pick up the older brother. He got a fun day with grandma, and it kept grandma busy so she wasn't in the waiting room constantly bothering us for updates. Jessica Ryan (talk) 18:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Hi, Jessica but, what about if the dad's parents are both death and the mom's parents live far away from the couple? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 19:49, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Aunts, uncles, family friends (of the kids) ? StuRat (talk) 01:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

StuRat No aunts or uncles on the mother's side and an uncle living in other continent on the father's side. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 12:25, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Hmm, it is a good idea to have someone there who can watch him no matter what - you can't have a kid running around in the delivery room while mom and dad are obviously a bit distracted. :-) I don't really know how people normally handle that aspect of things. Usually parents have things arranged with nearby friends or families so that they know there will be someone available at a moment's notice when labor starts, but from what you've mentioned of your novel, I understand that their plans were changed pretty significantly at the last minute. :-) Jessica Ryan (talk) 13:50, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Jessica, is it ok to leave your kids with a friend? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 14:02, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Yep, as long as they're someone you know and trust and that your kid is familiar with. It's normal for friends with kids to exchange babysitting services with each other on a pretty regular basis. The kids get a playdate with their friends, and the parents get a more flexible schedule for working or just to get out of the house and have a date. Or, in this case, to go have another kid. Jessica Ryan (talk) 14:05, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Sorry for so many questions, Jess but I've never been involved in a birth, just mine lol. So, how many days the mother has to be at the hospital and when does the kid can come to visit his new sisters? Isn't twins born at the 8th month? When should the mother go to the hospital? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 14:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Twins can go full term, but are somewhat more likely to be born prematurely. As for how long the mother stays in the hospital, that varies widely. A mother who has given birth before, without complications, and has no complications this time, could in theory go home the same day, although most hospitals will want to keep them at least overnight. The boy could "visit" any time, but that might consist of looking at the babies through a window, if the hospital doesn't want the liability from the son sneezing on them and getting them sick, etc. StuRat (talk) 04:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

StuRat's response sounds about right. Depending on the situation the doctors may want to keep the twins in the NICU for a day or two for observation, especially if they are a bit premature. Labor times vary widely - a few hours to a few days. Our first son was early and needed surgery, but the hospital had no problem letting people visit him in the NICU. They had to use an automated hand washer before visiting, and only we were allowed to hold him at first. With our second things were a lot more normal, and people (and big brother) were allowed to visit, touch and hold him as soon as he was cleaned up. I understand that the hospital birth experience can vary quite a bit between countries, so you might want to find someone with references or experience for the country the scene will be happening in. Jessica Ryan (talk) 11:45, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, Jess the twins are born in the USA, New York. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 12:13, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Another approach is to get the boy more involved in the babies. For example, he could give one of them a bottle or spoon feed a baby. A little sibling bonding should hopefully result. But don't force him, only say he can if he wants to. StuRat (talk) 01:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Is it true that boys get more jealous if they have brothers instead of sisters? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 19:38, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

I don't think it makes much difference when they are babies, but when older it could come up, say if one boy is better at sports, with girls, etc., than the other. That is, two boys are likely to compete over more areas than a boy and a girl. StuRat (talk) 20:30, 23 August 2013 (UTC)

August 24

Prehistoric Animals - Size

Why did so many species of prehistoric animals grow to such enormous physical size?64.223.97.19 (talk) 01:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Though none are as large as the largest modern animal, the blue whale, it should be noted, which is the largest animal to have ever lived. The Wikipedia article titled Megafauna does have some information on factors believed to lead to large animals. --Jayron32 01:18, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Peter Ward hypothesizes that Dinosaurs had more efficient breathing apparatuses. His Out of Thin Air is interesting, if extremely speculative. μηδείς (talk) 02:13, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

There's some stuff at the article for Meganeura, the largest dragonfly known. Some of the links may also be useful. Matt Deres (talk) 13:02, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

There also is a significant sampling bias. The bigger an animal, the more robust its bones, and hence the more likely they are to survive (and the easier they are to find). --Stephan Schulz (talk) 14:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

Well, yes, but there's no denying Meganeura ain't flitting about any swamps these days and no recent land animals have come close to the largest dinosaurs, but I agree we can fall into the trap of thinking everything back then was larger. I'm trying to recall the name of the hypothesis that certain body plans simply have particular limits as to how far they'll scale upwards (i.e. why some canids are large, but could never reach the size of the largest felids, for example). If the OP is interested in the megafaunal mammals we no longer have around, Holocene extinction might be of interest. Matt Deres (talk) 14:29, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

J B S Haldane's essay On Being the Right Size is a famous discussion of the problem, but I don't know if goes into details such as size of canids vs felids. AndrewWTaylor (talk) 22:08, 24 August 2013 (UTC)

My assumption is that was being used as an hypothetical example. Bears are canids, and the largest extant carnivores. μηδείς (talk) 19:51, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Small clarification, bears are Caniformia (and thus Carnivorans), but they are not Canids. SemanticMantis (talk) 13:27, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

(ec) What?!? No! Bears aren't either canids or the largest carnivores! Great white sharks and Killer whales are both much larger - and are most certainly carnivorous (as any seal will be only too happy to explain!). Not all carnivores are canids! Blue whales almost exclusively eat krill - so they too are extant carnivores and beyond all doubt the largest carnivores, extant or otherwise. Even if you want to restrict yourself to animals of the order carnivora, the elephant seal is easily five times larger than either polar or grizzly bears. Bears aren't even canids - they are Caniformia and Ursoidea. Canids are wolves, dogs and foxes. SteveBaker (talk) 13:28, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Easy on the exclamation points there :) I think Medeis knows most of what you wrote, s/he probably just meant that bears are the larges extant terrestrial Carnivorans (which I think is true...). SemanticMantis (talk) 16:21, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and SemanticMantis's terminological correction was also right. The entirety of the Carnivora are divided into the Canoidea and the Feloidea, with bears in the dog-like suborder. μηδείς (talk) 17:24, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

But members of the sub-order "Caniformia" (aka Canoidea) are not "Canids" - that term refers to members of the family Caniformia/Canidae - which doesn't include the bears who are Caniformia/Ursidae. Caniformia/Canidea are dogs, wolves and foxes. Bears are not, therefore "the largest canids" because they aren't canids...they aren't even the largest Caniformia (that honor belongs to the elephant seal)...which means that they also aren't the largest Carnivora - nor yet the largest "carnivore" (which is the blue whale). Bears aren't the largest anything, really! So, it's not just a semantic mistake - your entire post was flat out wildly incorrect in at least three ways! SteveBaker (talk) 13:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Bears are the largest land carnivores, and you need a sedative, friend. μηδείς (talk) 17:24, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I agree that (by definitions of "land carnivore" that carefully exclude elephant seals) your latest statement may be true - but that's not remotely close to what you told our OP. And beware WP:NPA...unless that was medical advice. A simple "Sorry, I was wrong" would work better. :-P SteveBaker (talk) 20:33, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

If your question includes the massive insects we used to have, this explains that their respiratory systems work on diffusion, and the lower oxygen concentration in today's air just isn't enough to support a dog-sized dragonfly. InedibleHulk (talk) 22:43, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Higher oxygen content of air?

August 25

Spave

What is a Spave. Know it has something to do with digging. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.176.43.48 (talk) 06:08, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I know only the verb "to spave" (in Northern UK) as a variant of "spay". It's possible that the noun spave is a variant of spade in some other region of the world. Dbfirs 06:17, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Could you provide some context? Where did you see it? A brief search online just turns up a slang definition of "spending in order to save" (e.g. buying a lot of stuff because it's on sale). You also might want to try the Language refdesk for stuff like this. Matt Deres (talk) 12:51, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I wonder if this could be a local corruption of Navvy, whom did a lot of digging. --Aspro (talk) 15:33, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Or a person asking about a spade for dramatic effect. WP:AGF applying of course. 88.112.41.6 (talk) 15:44, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

I doubt it, I always call a spade a spade. KägeTorä - (影虎) (TALK) 19:23, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

• Spade and spathe are cognate variants, see Doublet (linguistics). Certain British dialects would pronounce the latter as spave. Or it may just be a simple mishearing. I say olnly and uninted for only and united. There are plenty of examples of such things. For example, trough as troff and troth. μηδείς (talk) 19:48, 25 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but "spave" only if you had a Cockney gheezer botanist - hang on - Dr David Bellamy might fit the bill. Alansplodge (talk) 08:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

August 26

SIPAYI LAHALA

Can any of the respected people provide me with some information about the SIPAYI LAHALA? It is very urgent!117.199.8.93 (talk) 10:51, 26 August 2013 (UTC) The question applies to Kerala , India.

Do you mean the movie? -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 10:57, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

what are the difference between amalgamation merger joint venture ? pl explain in table form with examples and concepts of assets,etc

what are the difference between amalgamation merger joint venture ? pl explain in table form with examples and concepts of assets,etc — Preceding unsigned comment added by Adfsgf (talk • contribs) 13:09, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Welcome to the Wikipedia Reference Desk. Your question appears to be a homework question. I apologize if this is a misinterpretation, but it is our aim here not to do people's homework for them, but to merely aid them in doing it themselves. Letting someone else do your homework does not help you learn nearly as much as doing it yourself. Please attempt to solve the problem or answer the question yourself first. If you need help with a specific part of your homework, feel free to tell us where you are stuck and ask for help. If you need help grasping the concept of a problem, by all means let us know.

SteveBaker (talk) 13:13, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Consolidation (business), Mergers and acquisitions, Joint venture. 163.202.48.126 (talk) 14:42, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Summarize lost

Can someone summarize Lost in three lines to me? (includign the last episode). Everyone talks about it but I do not understand it.

I think this is a question asking for personal opinion. Everyone might have a defferent summary for you. I understood the show but I din't like it, others might find it interesting... it depends. Probably this is the best place where you can find your answer here in Wikipedia: Lost_(TV_series) Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 16:11, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Plane crashes on an island. Survivors go on various adventures. Hilarity ensues. --Jayron32 16:22, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Plane crashes on island. Mystic shenanigans ensue. Show loses its own plot and should have finished a long time before the end. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Too strong: Maybe plane crashed on island. Maybe it was all a dream. Maybe they all died and the show happened in heaven?. Er...maybe. SteveBaker (talk) 01:31, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

The bottom line (sorry more than three sentences) is that in the first episode a plane crashes on an island - it starts off as a typical "surviving on an island" show - but rapidly they introduce crazy complicated plot elements - an entire cave full of diagrams and equations and stuff...a guy who has to punch a key on an ancient Commodore 64 computer every 13 minutes or the world will end (or something like that). All my friends are tearing their hair out trying to solve these FASCINATING mysteries and layer upon layer of clues and more mysteries. So far, very good! Then, the very last series!!!. Still more mysteries, still more clues...the last few episodes - and we're no nearer an answer. EVERYONE is glued to the final episode waiting to here how this amazingly complicated (and evidently insanely clever) plot will all come together in the end in a massively clever "AHA!!!" moment...and...it...doesn't...flat out nothing. "It was all a dream"...or something about that satisfying. Everyone feels cheated - that they spent the last god-knows-how-many years chatting about the clues and arguing about how this wierd event tied to that weird clue - blogs, mailing lists, forums...then **NOTHING**. Nobody ever mentions any of the amazing series of tantalizing clues and mysteries - it's a total cop-out from the laziest, cheating team of script writers in the history of television. At least "Dallas" only wiped out one season with the "It was all a dream" thing.

I watched the first two episodes - then missed a couple and decided I'd wait for the entire series to appear on DVD so I could watch it properly. Never did buy the DVD's - and I'm really glad I didn't invest any time with the piece of junk - or I'd probably be after the script writer's blood. SteveBaker (talk) 01:42, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and I fear the Under the Dome is headed the same way, although the book apparently had an ending. But Stephen King really doesn't do sci-fi right, he instead gives you mysticism disguised as sci-fi, like in The Stand. StuRat (talk) 01:59, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Sounds like The Sopranos. Eight years of tantalizing plot developments (what ever happened to the Russian gangster who escaped when they took him to the Jersey Pine Barrens to pop him?) that were never resolved; a show so desperate for drama every character is debased (Walnuts kills Adriana instead of letting her go into hiding; you don't know whether to cheer or hate Tony for suffocating the insuferable Christopher); all building up to the biggest non-ending slap in the fan's face ever. μηδείς (talk) 02:41, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, but The Sopranos didn't have one huge mystery we tuned into each week to try to solve, and which went unsolved at the end. StuRat (talk) 03:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Exactly. Many (if not most) plot points in The Sopranos were resolved within one or two episodes - and it's not unreasonable that they wanted to leave a few dangling in case they wanted to make another series or a movie or something. But from what I understand from my friends who are recovering "Lost" addicts - it's hard to find ANY plot points that were ever resolved! I agree about "The Dome" though - I started to watch it - but after a few episodes it became clear that it's not going to end well...so it's one of those things that relegated to sitting forever in my NetFlicks queue. SteveBaker (talk) 13:34, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

made men U.S.

I need a list of mafia individuals by name under city. I found it once. Do you currently have such a list?

David Genth Geislinge — Preceding unsigned comment added by 192.220.135.34 (talk) 17:09, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I wouldn't have thought the Mafia would advertise who was who in their organized crime enterprise. But I easily came across List of Mafia crime families. How true is it? I know nothing! Astronaut (talk) 18:46, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Don't list anyone as belonging to a crime family without a very good reliable source or three--otherwise it's defamation and a WP:BLP violation. μηδείς (talk) 00:28, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Also probably violates other rules. You don't want to end up permanently blocked. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:00, August 27, 2013 (UTC)

Large numbers of them have been convicted (often multiple times and often for participating in criminal organizations). reliable sources aren't that hard to find. Rmhermen (talk) 15:04, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Listing them as Mafiosi is one thing. What they really resented, when Joe Valachi testified in the early 1960s, was revealing what they called themselves, which was Cosa Nostra (Our Thing). ←Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} carrots→ 10:51, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Six º of Separation

If I know a person who knows a person who knows X important person. How do i say that? I mean, I have a Six Degrees of Separation number of 3 with X??.. it is confusing. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 17:58, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

See the article "Six degrees of separation".

—Wavelength (talk) 18:04, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

After reading the article. Does I am 3 steps away from X is correct? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 18:37, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

I think so, or "I'm three degrees seperated from X" or "I have three degrees of seperation from X" if you want to better tie it back to the degrees of seperation concept. I think it really just depends on context - I assume most people saying something like that would probably follow it up with a description of the chain, in which case it becomes very clear what they meant. Jessica Ryan (talk) 18:48, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, Jessica. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 18:55, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

Sometimes people also talk about "My X-number is 5" or whatever. For example, my "Feynman-number" is 3 because Feynman himself had a Feynman number of zero, one of his students was a 1, the ex-wife of that student is a 2 and when she was (briefly) my girlfriend, that endowed me with a Feynman-number of 3. However, most people-numbers have special rules for what constituted a "connection". You see this particularly in mathematics where people talk about their Erdős number where the connections between mathematicians and Paul Erdős have to be made by publishing a paper with them. Similarly, Bacon number links have to be made through making a movie with someone. Feynman numbers are established by being taught something you didn't already know...so now your Feynman number is at most 4. SteveBaker (talk) 13:27, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Steve, I'm not sure the generalization of the concept is really something people talk about. The Erdős number is a special case, because of two particular things about Erdős: (1) he wrote lots of papers with lots of different co-authors, and (2) he was a graph theorist, and this is a graph-theoretical notion. I think it was the original "named number". The Bacon thing presumably came about because Kevin Bacon sort of rhymes with separation, leading to the eponymous trivia game, and then someone noticed the similarity and invented the "Bacon number". But I admit to some speculation here. --Trovatore (talk) 03:58, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I'm not sure where I heard the "Feynman number" thing - but the idea was that he was a great teacher (and a great originator of ideas) - so being taught something by Feynman is considered to be something special - and being taught by someone who was taught it by Feynman was (somewhat jokingly) considered to be almost as good - and so forth. Anyway, I've bumped into a handful of people over the years who already knew their Feynman number - so the concept is out there - although I've not seen any reference to it in print or online. Anyway - it's just an example of how this concept is being generalized. SteveBaker (talk) 13:10, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Then, for everyone reading your post, that didn't already know your Feynman number was 3, their Feynman number is now 4? Seems too easy... :) SemanticMantis (talk) 15:12, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I think they have to at least add a comment to the same discussion as him at some point. I think that still makes pretty much everyone on these desks a 4. :-P Jessica Ryan (talk) 19:51, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Wow, I completely missed the last sentence of his explanation. Never mind. Jessica Ryan (talk) 19:52, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Yeah - but since you learned it from SemanticMantis (N_F==4) and not me (N_F==3) - you therefore already knew this fact before you read the last sentence of my post - so I didn't teach you anything new and you get a Feynman number of 5...which is really kinda pathetic!  :-) SteveBaker (talk) 13:10, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Turkish Wikipedia

I'm shocked to see the main page of the Turkish wikipedia. I think it's "today's picture" and it shows a child with smallpox. Isn't it too scary and inappropriate?--77.0.104.38 (talk) 19:35, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

It would only have got there by common consensus among the users who decide those pictures.

In any case, this is not the place to be asking about this. This is the Reference Desk for the English version of Wikipedia, and there is no reference we could possibly provide. Each Wikipedia operates essentially autonomously, and users on Turkish WP are in no better position to be making decisions about anything on English WP than would be the case the other way around. Namely, no position at all.

Also, it's an opinion question, and we don't do opinion questions here. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 20:32, 26 August 2013 (UTC)

What we can say, though, is that different cultures have very different attitudes towards displaying the dead and dying. The "hide them away from the public" attitude is not shared by all. StuRat (talk) 02:01, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

The same photo File:Child with Smallpox Bangladesh.jpg was picture of the day at Commons 4 August 2009. At Wikipedia:Featured picture candidates/Smallpox it also became a featured picture at the English Wikipedia but it hasn't been today's featured picture on the main page. It's listed as "Too graphic" at Wikipedia:Picture of the day/Unused where it isn't even displayed, but it's shown at Wikipedia:Wikipedia Signpost/2010-11-08/Features and admins#Featured pictures. PrimeHunter (talk) 02:30, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

August 27

International Library Catalog online

Right, I remember back when I was mindbogglingly active here that I used one specific site to find books near me. I'd punch the name in, along with the oclc (I don't think it took ISBN's, but I'm not sure), and out would come several books near me with the library name and how many miles it was away from my zip code. I can't seem to find it now. I remember mentioning it once in an edit on WT:OMT or somewhere near that, but now I can't find that, either. Anyone have a clue about what website I'm talking about, help? Buggie111 (talk) 00:17, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

WorldCat --  Gadget850 ^talk 02:37, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

That's it! Now, what was my name, again? ;) Buggie111 (talk) 03:30, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Gender disclosure on Wikipedia

I read somwhere that there are way more male editors than female editors on wikipedia. How can anyone possibly know that when most editors hve not disclosed their gender? Pass a Method talk 22:39, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Sampling and large surveys; people may be willing to disclose gender to an anonymous survey while not disclosing it publicly. The major editor surveys have come up with broadly similar numbers (around the 10-15% mark); an interesting recent study (doi:10.1371/journal.pone.0065782) looked at how the sampling bias might affect these results, and came up with a revised figure for female editors of 16.1% globally and 22.7% in the US, using 2008 data. Andrew Gray (talk) 22:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

I have amended your header, as "I read somwhere" gives no clue as to what the question is about. Please give your question headers a little more attention. Thank you. -- Jack of Oz ^{[pleasantries]} 22:47, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

August 28

Is this illegal in the United States?

Is it illegal for a woman/mother to intentionally cause the death, birth defect, or injury (but one that is easily preventable) of her infant or unborn child? I'm thinking of cases like the mother's smoking (i.e. starting smoking because of the pregnancy), drinking alcohol (to induce fetal alcohol syndrome), taking drugs (especially illegal drugs) without consultation with a physician, shaking the baby (to induce shaken baby syndrome), infanticide, abortion, intentionally eating junk food and avoiding folic acid during pregnancy, etc. Sneazy (talk) 03:41, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Infanticide is certainly illegal. Doesn't matter if you're the mother. InedibleHulk (talk) 03:49, August 28, 2013 (UTC)

The most related article on this is Fetal rights. There are sections on US Federal law and "example cases". Many fetal rights laws were intended to punish people who cause harm to someone else's unborn child, although they have been used against the mother as well. In at least one of the example cases in the United States, a state sought punishment against a mother under a law that was not written for unborn children at all, which makes it difficult to state whether something is illegal. In any event, the specific law, both statutory and case law, vary from state to state. Here you'll find more examples of mothers being charged with unintentionally killing or harming their unborn children. Women charged with such crimes are in general impoverished and cannot afford a robust legal defense, nor do they make for the most sympathetic defendants, and so few of these cases receive effective appeals that may provide some final decision on legality. But it would certainly be accurate to say that very many prosecutors in the United States believe it is a crime to cause death or injury to one's own unborn child. Someguy1221 (talk) 04:28, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

There have been cases in which late-term mothers, often incarcerated, have been enjoined from drug/alcohol consumption on behalf of the child. There are also "wrongful birth" and "wrongful life" suits where civil claims have been made against parties seen as responsible for birth defects. μηδείς (talk) 04:36, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Here is an Indiana case from 2011 where a woman was charged after drinking poison to cause the death of her unborn child: [2]. OldTimeNESter (talk) 13:15, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

This page has a rundown of state laws: [3] Rmhermen (talk) 16:49, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Raw data of association football games

I am looking for freely available raw data of association football, most preferably long-term data of all games played in a league (specific country or Champions League) or World Cup. The data need to contain typical information of match reports incl. goal scorers. --129.132.225.23 (talk) 12:44, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

This site: [4] seems to have league results tables back to the 1800's. I haven't gone through all of it, but I'd start there. --Jayron32 14:52, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Facebook account

Imagine I have a facebook account (which I clearly don't) I want to send an invitation to someone whose account is block or hide (don't know the term for when people don't want to share their account with anyone but their friends), how do I do that? (send the invitation or the request for adding me as a friend) Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 14:16, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

If you are blocked by that user you cannot see them on Facebook at all. You cannot search for them, nor can you add them as your friend. If their data is private and only visible to friends, you will have the option to send a friend request to them. If that user accepts, you will then be able to see their statues, photos etc. 63.95.64.254 (talk) 14:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Ahhh, that's the word I was looking for private. Yep, the person keep private the data of the account (I just can see the name or something). Thanks... :) Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 15:08, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Camping in NYC

Is there any place where people who lives in NYC can go camping? Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 16:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Some googling indicates that the Black Bear Campground in Florida, Orange County, New York claims to be the "nearest full-service campground to New York City", but that's still a considerable distance. See [5]. Looking at the New York State Parks website, the nearest state park with camping to NYC is Sebago State Park, see [6], near Lake Sebago, which is near to the town of Florida above. So both of those appear to be the nearest to NYC. --Jayron32 16:14, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

If it's camping in the city (as opposed to just 'near' it) that you want, then our Floyd Bennett Field article says that it is "the only public campground maintained by the National Park Service that is within the limits of an American city, and the only legal campground in New York City." However, it also says that it is "classified as primitive – with only portable toilets, and no electricity provided." - Cucumber Mike (talk) 16:18, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

I meant a quiet place, where a celebrity can spend the whole day with your family without being bothered. It doesn't have to be in the city, just a comfortable place. Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 17:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

There are places nearish to New York City where celebrities are known to be semi-anonymous, if only because there are only celebrities and the very rich that live there. For example, The Hamptons. --Jayron32 17:30, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Oh, super. I will read the article and will come back sooner for another related question :P I know there will be :). Thanks! Miss Bono ^[zootalk] 18:04, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

The Catskills and Adirondacks are where New Yorkers mainly go if they want to get out into the wilderness. Looie496 (talk) 18:07, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Syrian views

I'm struggling to find any reliable guide to the views of the people of Syria on possible outside intervention. Could you direct me to any polls, Syrian groups with declared views, or any other fairly reliable guide to the general views of Syrians themselves. Basically, I'm trying to work out whether few, many, or most Syrians are in favour of some intervention from foreign countries, and what sort of intervention they would want if so.

Thank you for providing sources, not opinions. 86.163.2.116 (talk) 16:13, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

The Syrian has an opinions page. I'm not clear on whether the writers are expats or still living in Syria. 184.147.119.141 (talk) 18:26, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

adding: Poll: 70% Of Syrians Support Assad, Says NATO and Analyzing the largest Syria crisis Facebook polls (Syrian facebook users). 184.147.119.141 (talk) 18:29, 28 August 2013 (UTC)